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NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2007, 04:07 PM
The other day a friend and I were having the age old debate of dressage vs. every other sport on the planet and how much the others fall short (snort). I showed her this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90uitCdq54 video and she was shocked at how little she knew about the western riders and how much traning their horses go through too!!! Just thought I should post to try to broaden some of those horizons.


PS I do love dressage!

tempichange
May. 24, 2007, 04:27 PM
Honey, anyone can have an obediant and quiet horse that does his job. Heck, anyone can train flat flying lead changes, let a horse go like a stick and ride through a set of cones. The real challege of dressage is to do it correctly and that isn't correct by dressage standards.

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2007, 04:30 PM
Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!

lizathenag
May. 24, 2007, 04:30 PM
not dressage but no one said it was.

looks like a pleasant ride.

LynxMynx
May. 24, 2007, 04:33 PM
I don't debate the fact that western riding is hard, or that it doesn't involve a lot of training on the part of both horse and rider. My issue in fact is not with western in the sense that involves different tack, different goals, or ideals; it is in what many competion riders produce. In my opinion, dressage furthers the horse's natural abilities and predispositions. We see the basis of our movements in horses at liberty, and then we act to improve or bring out the abilities of our mounts. On the other hand, I have never seen a horse at liberty lope with its head low or jog for extended periods of time. A horse has a natural stride length and way of going that makes it easy to travel and manuever without a huge energy expenditure, to me, western pleasure ignore this. That's not to say that dressage isn't taxing on the horse, and I really don't want to get into the whole debate of riding being unnatural, I just see dressage as a "lesser evil."

If you've ever watched a wild horse, or even a domestic one in turn-out, you can't deny the fact that they are amazing to watch when they cavort about. You know the image I'm talking about, something a bit like this:
http://soil.uwyo.edu/sites/courses/ce2070/Nice%20original%20stone%20pictures/Beautiful%20Wild%20Horses.jpg
If these horse were loping along like the horse in the western video, I don't think I'd have the goosebumps that I do when I see a horse at-liberty.

Dalfan
May. 24, 2007, 04:35 PM
Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!

She's also correct. Very flat with little life to it at all. A manufactured gait.

tempichange
May. 24, 2007, 04:41 PM
Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!

I paticularly don't care if the comments were taken as nice or not. What they were, and are still, is truthful.

I don't doubt the preperation it takes to get a horse to a specific level of competition, it takes sweat equity to do so.

However, like Lynx, my problem doesn't lye in different tack or clothes, but rather what the end result of that training produces. As previous said, anyone can train flying lead changes, you can even do auto changes, you can train a horse to be as flat and obiediant as possible. It may be correct to that sport (or as many western magazines that I've picked up, subscribed to and read over the years will tell you it isn't correct), it isn't correct by dressage standards, not by a longshot.

bip
May. 24, 2007, 04:42 PM
I can never show my STB that. She would be really po'd that somewhere in the world horses are allowed, no, encouraged to 4-beat. Sorry sweetheart, maybe in your next life you'll live with that kind of mommy! :)

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2007, 04:43 PM
How much time have you guys spent around the western breeds (good ones). They as babies lope and jog all of the time (if they are bred well) no way is it manufactured and you consider it flat and lifeless because why?Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?

Trakehners2000
May. 24, 2007, 04:53 PM
I don't see riding as unnatural, Look at the Good Book and you will see that our Lord rode a donkey, and that he is coming back on a horse..... so I think that if the Creator of the world sees the horse as fit to be ridden, then I for one will believe that the Lord intended for horses to be used for transportation, companionship, etc. I mean, when you look at it, He created animals first & then told us to hang out with them! No wonder it feels so good to hang out at the barn, the Creator of the universe even chose to be born in a hay manger...so when we want to ride horses, hang out in a stable or lay in the hay....I think it is the most natural thing on earth! Life as God intended....
Maybe the folks who see it as unnatural believe more in evolution? NOt sure.
If so, that's okay, it's their free choice to believe that, too.

About Dressage & Western, saying "Western" is a broad statement. There are many variations in "Western".
For sake of arguement, Western Pleasure...does nothing to further the useful life of the horse, actually premature collection usually causes arthritic changes in the joints, esp. the hocks, so WP is not for me. I am drawn to sports that encourage the lengthening the useful life of horses. Overall, you will see older, (Late teen) dressage horses at the pinnacle of the sport....and you will not typically see that in WP. Even in Endurance, the oldest horse to ever complete the Tevis cup ( the toughest 100 mile 1 day race) was 27 years of age....it is common to see old horses in endurance. One man I just met rides his 16 year old horse to top finishes in endurance on a regular basis,
I have seen 20 + year old endurance horses do a 25 mile Competitive Trail ride without breaking a sweat.....
The difference even flows over to the respective halter classes for each sport,
Western halter classes often reward horses that have conformational faults,
and Sport Horse in Hand classes are much more particular and have a rigid guideline to score horses, and where you actually get a score back, not a subjective placing......
I love western riding, just not WP, I have seen too many horses bred with faults for WP, because they will lope better with lower hocks, look prettier- regardless of tiny feet on a 1500 pd horse.....
One of our friends is a top team penner, and he trains his horses to approximately 3rd level.... as he also shows them in working cow classes, reining etc... He is a real horseman, knows his stuff, western trainer, though no WP guy, no way....
So, Saying "Western" is like saying you dressage rider rides english....
Of course if you told an Arabian show circuit person you rode english,
that would mean saddle seat!!!!!!!!!! LOL Sorry to be so off track.....WP is just a pet peeve with me & I hate to see horses suffer with premature joint pain!!!!!! I know, many dressage horses are on joint support, though overall you do see many more older dressage horses and not many WP horses in their teens.........
JMHO

sm
May. 24, 2007, 04:56 PM
so far this thread is proving that the answer is NO to the OP question: "Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? "

Eventingjunkie
May. 24, 2007, 04:57 PM
Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?

Western Pleasure has nothing to do with "Cutting" cows. Most cutters I know think what the Western Pleasure people do to their horses is criminal.

I had a trainer that taught my quarter horse by working the cows More than half of his clients were dressage riders, very few were Western Pleasure.

Kimberlee
May. 24, 2007, 04:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVFrHaEQReM

Then here is more contraversy ;)

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2007, 05:01 PM
When you used the statement "Western halter classes" I knew how little you know about it. Halter is halter ... Western Pleasure is Wp... and this video is of Western Riding... the competition for several breeds. This horse is not four beating by the way his back end is not trotting ( i think thats pretty obvious). I think we can all learn more about eachothers breeds and disciplines without basing dont you? Anyway when you guys post your world champions on here and tell me you left the sport anyway then youll have my attention. When i posted western riding that was the name of the type of competion posted it is call the Wester riding class (has patterns will travel). LOL Ignorance can be quite contageous.

Renae
May. 24, 2007, 05:03 PM
Western Riding is a tricky class. I would say most amateur ridden dressage horses would not be able to do a western riding pattern relaxed and on a loose rein. What a pretty ride to watch, thanks for sharing.

For those who aren't familiar with what a Western Riding class is here are more details on rules and the various patterns they use http://www.westernriding.co.za/westernriding.htm

SillyHorse
May. 24, 2007, 05:03 PM
People! Don't feed the trolls!

NOMIOMI1
May. 24, 2007, 05:08 PM
Thank you for your posting. I posted this world champion to show how nice these horses can ride. My mistake on the AQHA forums they post the dressage horses sometimes and everyone oohs and aahs over how awesome the musical freestyle is. THis is a hate it and keep away from it kinda forum.

Ja Da Dee
May. 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
The other day a friend and I were having the age old debate of dressage vs. every other sport on the planet and how much the others fall short (snort).



I don't look at as this -v-that. I love horses, love riding horses and know that all riding has it's difficulties and challenges. I've ridden western, saddle seat, driven fine harness, jumped and ridden dressage. Personally, I prefer dressage and XC jumping, but know that not all riders OR horses are wired right for dressage, just like not all horses are WP horses, barrel horses, reining horses, hunters, park horses or EP horses.

Thank GOD for diversity! Enjoy your sport, enjoy your horse, that's what it's all about.

SillyHorse
May. 24, 2007, 05:16 PM
on the AQHA forums they post the dressage horses sometimes and everyone oohs and aahs over how awesome the musical freestyle is...
Well, that should tell you something. :lol:

tempichange
May. 24, 2007, 05:55 PM
How much time have you guys spent around the western breeds (good ones). They as babies lope and jog all of the time (if they are bred well) no way is it manufactured and you consider it flat and lifeless because why?Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?

We didn't start it.

I spent a good time around cow horses. Well-bred quarter horses who, actually work on the ranch. These were rumuda bred qh's who took top ten in the AQHA Rumuda competition and went on to successful reining and cutting careers with ammie owners. They move nothing like modern WP horses, and look nothing like them as well.

They do stand up to years of actual work. I've seen some pretty successful WP horses, who do not look like that, and actually do define the ideals of WP. That doesn't define it, and looks quite... bastardized.

There is a difference between relaxed and mechanical- relaxed actually has forward motion, and allows that gaits to actually be utlized however. You can be relaxed and go that slow. Relaxation doesn't look lame. That is lame, or looking very sore.


While dressage has its basis in battle, it really came about and was sustained for royalty, it went away from it's war horse roots very quickly. And it is very much more than just a head set and head bob.

Thomas_1
May. 24, 2007, 06:02 PM
Heck dressage riders are inspiring the western riders and cowboys.

And at long last they're even incorporating some techniques into their rodeos now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wh3kyMKJU

yaya
May. 24, 2007, 06:03 PM
HOw about this for Western Dressage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9wh3kyMKJU

Thomas_1
May. 24, 2007, 06:06 PM
Great minds think alike Yaya ;)

des
May. 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
Different strokes for different folks. If I could ride like Stacey Westfall I'd be a happy camper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6jLRg01w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N701ro5Otzw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thn82PMIvfw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97KX_VB5_w4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHR-fx-P98&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtDUC3zJu4&mode=related&search=


Hunter Jumpers of Cowhorses: Cutting Horses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzjFxie9sPU&mode=related&search=
Smart Little Lena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_2xofNvwTA&mode=related&search=
And how easy it is for a rider to screw up the horse's balance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AarnuOQw_9g&mode=related&search=

Lori
May. 24, 2007, 06:34 PM
IMO I don't like the extreme stiff and dull look of most of the WP, but the well bred ones are bred to move closer to that gait than to move out. I think the training just brings it out more in them to move less natural looking.
A relaxed head I like, an overly low one I don't. I also do not enjoy jogging around slower than an extended walk. LOL I did not find it fun when I schooled an owners pony that was plunking around like that while the owner beamed "isn't that GREAT!!??" I was like "OHHHHH what a feeling...NOT".
But they got rid of her because she "looked around too much". She really did not look overly much, IMO, but they wanted NO looking around whatsoever. You know what they sold her as? A HUNTER pony. LOL They figured anything that went not so dead quiet was PERFECT for the english world.
I also trained a small pony to go WP and it was quite the challenge, was fun and we succeeded--but he did not move as stiff and slow as the horse in that video. Trail in hand with him was a hoot and we beat out the big guys.
Overall, the difficulty is there. To do a pattern or even a trail class correctly you have to work at it. I find those both fun.
I wish they would loosen up a tad in the WP world...

Adamantane
May. 24, 2007, 06:48 PM
If it hadn't been in part for memories a nice horse -- no idea what breed, all I remember was that he had a lot of what I later learned is called chestnut to him -- that an old friend tacked up western for me and with a bare minimum of instructions allowed me to ride all over the place on her folks' property, I never would have decided to learn to ride 25 years later in middle age. (English though, because a TBxHanoverian mare I'd befriended across the fence over the months while she was pregnant the previous year, talked me into it over drinks one warm summer afternoon.:lol:)

I haven't a clue how western folks train their horses for their specialties. Heck, I doubt I even could cinch up a western saddle without supervision. But I do know that the best feeling canter I ever have experienced was on that long-ago horse in a western saddle.

When in my lessons I progressed to the stage that I was allowed to canter, I was terrifically disappointed. Yeah, it was nice, it was fun, we moved along at a pleasant clip, but where was that smooth, delicious, swooping to-die-for canter I remembered from the 70's?:confused:

I've ridden a number of horses since. It's almost a hobby for me to cadge rides on new ones as I learn more. Every time I canter a new one, I have this secret hope I will find it again. But I never have.:sadsmile:

One of the very few things that makes me sad about COTH and riding in general since I took the plunge, is that there is such a vast gulf between the English riders -- not just dressage, but all the disciplines -- and the Western riders. It works both ways, best I can tell. (What's more, it must be bias on our part that while English riding is neatly subdivided from our perspective into many distinct disciplines, all the Western riders are, well, 'Western riders' as if that were monolithic, pretty much lumped together.)

In the past month I have heard three people, workmanlike or more advanced English riders all, comment they don't think there's anything much to riding western. Neck reining, that's about it, and even that is just a matter of training the horse, not rider skill (was my impression from them).

What crap! No wonder we don't communicate and we glare at each another and call one another unflattering names!

I was amazed some weeks ago to read an article about President Reagan, the last President who rode [or in my opinion was good for much of anything, but don't get me started, you may know how I get...].

Reagan was always pictured in the American media in jeans, riding Western and only Western. Apparently everybody thought that western was all he was interested in and all that he knew.

When the President went to Great Britain on a state visit and at one point was to ride with the Queen, everybody there, court and media alike, expected that he would be nicely turned out, but ride Western alongside her, sort of the American cowboy and the European monarch.

To everyone's shock -- don't think the US media even covered it -- President Reagan emerged dressed like a British country squire on an correspondingly tacked horse, and was far more than merely creditable in his ride with the Queen. :yes:

(As a sidebar, when the Queen came to the US and was to ride with Reagan at his California ranch, I understand he shocked her and everybody in her entourage by grooming and tacking up both his own horse and hers for the day, with his own hands before their ride. Apparently the Queen was dumbstruck. Don't know which way they rode that day, but I presume the Queen could have managed very nicely either way.)

If Ronald Reagan could honor and do credit to both schools of riding -- he sure as hell had no time to first learn while he was President -- then what possible excuse is there for this crap of mutual bashing between the American English and Western communities? :confused:

It would be interesting to see a friendly competition where highly ranked members of each group exchanged places with the other.:yes:

Xanthoria
May. 24, 2007, 07:13 PM
Looks like Reagan mostly rode English at home on his ranch: http://www.wiwfarm.com/reagan.html

LynxMynx
May. 24, 2007, 07:17 PM
I think we can all learn more about eachothers breeds and disciplines without basing dont you? Anyway when you guys post your world champions on here and tell me you left the sport anyway then youll have my attention.

Isn't this a bit counter-productive to the idea of discussion, which is ultimately the point of a forum? You seem to be contradicting yourself, first we are encouraged to learn about breeds and disciplines, and then we are told to refrain from commenting--at least negatively--unless we've ridden a world champion. I don't really see anyone bashing, just contributing their opinions. I enjoy watching a cutting horse work, and have ridden in a working ranch horse competition. In my opinion, while these horses do not resemble dressage horses, they do still appear to be sound horses. On the other hand, quite a few wp horses I've seen--and I've seen a lot--look uncomfortable or even sore.

As other have said, I'm not against "western" riding, but rather specific styles that produce a horse that I would not want to ride, own, or emulate.

Velvet
May. 24, 2007, 07:26 PM
I think the hardest part of any western riding is that darn saddle! :eek:

Adamantane
May. 24, 2007, 08:25 PM
Looks like Reagan mostly rode English at home on his ranch: http://www.wiwfarm.com/reagan.html

So it does! A fairly well kept secret, apparently. Thank you for sharing. No doubts for even the most skeptical now. Wonder how many others are astonished as I was?

(Western probably plays better politically for Americans of all political persuasions, because it is, well, indisputably American. Who can gainsay that?)

lizathenag
May. 24, 2007, 08:41 PM
My understanding is that Reagan always rode English but when he got into politics the handlers decided he should put on a cowboy hat and the rest is history. . .

JSwan
May. 24, 2007, 09:22 PM
Nice post. Hope you find that canter again....




If it hadn't been in part for memories a nice horse -- no idea what breed, all I remember was that he had a lot of what I later learned is called chestnut to him -- that an old friend tacked up western for me and with a bare minimum of instructions allowed me to ride all over the place on her folks' property, I never would have decided to learn to ride 25 years later in middle age. (English though, because a TBxHanoverian mare I'd befriended across the fence over the months while she was pregnant the previous year, talked me into it over drinks one warm summer afternoon.:lol:)

I haven't a clue how western folks train their horses for their specialties. Heck, I doubt I even could cinch up a western saddle without supervision. But I do know that the best feeling canter I ever have experienced was on that long-ago horse in a western saddle.

When in my lessons I progressed to the stage that I was allowed to canter, I was terrifically disappointed. Yeah, it was nice, it was fun, we moved along at a pleasant clip, but where was that smooth, delicious, swooping to-die-for canter I remembered from the 70's?:confused:

I've ridden a number of horses since. It's almost a hobby for me to cadge rides on new ones as I learn more. Every time I canter a new one, I have this secret hope I will find it again. But I never have.:sadsmile:

One of the very few things that makes me sad about COTH and riding in general since I took the plunge, is that there is such a vast gulf between the English riders -- not just dressage, but all the disciplines -- and the Western riders. It works both ways, best I can tell. (What's more, it must be bias on our part that while English riding is neatly subdivided from our perspective into many distinct disciplines, all the Western riders are, well, 'Western riders' as if that were monolithic, pretty much lumped together.)

In the past month I have heard three people, workmanlike or more advanced English riders all, comment they don't think there's anything much to riding western. Neck reining, that's about it, and even that is just a matter of training the horse, not rider skill (was my impression from them).

What crap! No wonder we don't communicate and we glare at each another and call one another unflattering names!

I was amazed some weeks ago to read an article about President Reagan, the last President who rode [or in my opinion was good for much of anything, but don't get me started, you may know how I get...].

Reagan was always pictured in the American media in jeans, riding Western and only Western. Apparently everybody thought that western was all he was interested in and all that he knew.

When the President went to Great Britain on a state visit and at one point was to ride with the Queen, everybody there, court and media alike, expected that he would be nicely turned out, but ride Western alongside her, sort of the American cowboy and the European monarch.

To everyone's shock -- don't think the US media even covered it -- President Reagan emerged dressed like a British country squire on an correspondingly tacked horse, and was far more than merely creditable in his ride with the Queen. :yes:

(As a sidebar, when the Queen came to the US and was to ride with Reagan at his California ranch, I understand he shocked her and everybody in her entourage by grooming and tacking up both his own horse and hers for the day, with his own hands before their ride. Apparently the Queen was dumbstruck. Don't know which way they rode that day, but I presume the Queen could have managed very nicely either way.)

If Ronald Reagan could honor and do credit to both schools of riding -- he sure as hell had no time to first learn while he was President -- then what possible excuse is there for this crap of mutual bashing between the American English and Western communities? :confused:

It would be interesting to see a friendly competition where highly ranked members of each group exchanged places with the other.:yes:

des
May. 24, 2007, 09:57 PM
While I'm pretty sure no one looked at the previous videos of the reining and cutting horses since there weren't any comments.

I don't ride western pleasure, I thought these videos might contribute to the conversation since they were delivered from the judges perspective.

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKCVs8oDAUc

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfO9EFd7ZaE&mode=related&search=

CLB15
May. 24, 2007, 10:23 PM
There's a difference between the chug-along, peanut-rolling, rail bird western horses and those that do reining, barrels, cutting, etc. Watching the "real" stuff is incredible- so much fun, so cool, after watching that or a GP freestyle you just wish you could do it with your own horse. There's no doubt that in each discipline everyone works hard to do it well. You really can't compare it because they become so dissimilar as the levels increase. BUT many people don't like the processed glitz of the WP world. While successful WP/HP & trail-class horses might be very obedient and steady and successful in in the ring, how would they do herding cattle or riding over uneven terrain- Or how would their riders do when they rode a horse who could walk & spin faster then their WP-horse could lope? When OLN used to have cutting & barrel racing a horse whod completed their portion of competition would *trot* away. So do horses other then those struck w/arthritis or too lazy to move unlessed forced "naturally" jog/lope around?

Dressage is *supposed* to develop a horse's balance, suppleness, flexibility, obedience and overall athleticism, but it doesn't mean there aren't people who put their horses in a fake, tense frame w/no engine and go out and show. Hunters *should* have forward, steady, adjustable paces like they would on a HUNT field but it doesn't mean a lot of horses winning are forward or adjustable or even influenced by their riders. I can't even get into saddle seat because I've only ever seen kids at shows wearing more makeup then a 70y/o-trying-to-look-25 on horses with shoes that weight as much as small dogs, but I always thought it was supposed to be horses who had comfortable gaits & attractive movement for people riding through the park "back in the day".

I have a horse bred to the millionth degree to excel in western & hunter pleasure. I'll be damned if I've ever seen my horse naturally move like a "showring" paint. I have pictures of her in turnout going back and forth between a floating trot and gallop, throwing in a few sliding stops and flying changes for kicks. When she goes out on cross country she stretches throughout her whole body and uses her head & neck to balance herself on the slopes & over obstacles. She could "maybe" be trained-down to smell the roses as she shuffled over them, but it wouldnt be natural.

Edited. Des I watched part of the Part 1, and part of Part 2. I thought it was interesting when he said at one point "...Move him up just a shade to where he's true. We sacrifice flow so much of the time on these horses trying to go slow, and slow is not flow, and we lose the balance". "...A little more pace and flow... and more balance". It clued me in to what WP *should* be and I did appreciate hearing his opinion on correct & ideal gaits as needed in this type of discipline that I otherwise would not have an idea about.

des
May. 24, 2007, 10:34 PM
I agree CBL. And yes the real stuff is fun to ride ;)

I'm a cross over rider I guess. I have a nicely bred cutting/reining filly that I'm working on now. I've got about 60 days on her now. She's smart and catty. While she's not ready to spin or slide, she'll get there with some work.

I'm currently reading/learning dressage to help with her training. I know that dressage is not going to get her to do a 25 foot slide but then, it's not going to hurt since she'll have to be in a collected frame with her hind end engaged and her front end up and ready. A hollow horse can't drive their hind end into the ground and get a long slide.

That said, I'm also inspired by the dressage horses. I used to gallop racehorses and I do miss the big moving horses. I'm looking for a tb now that I can use a dressage horse. Am I crazy to do both? Maybe, but I'll have fun doing it anyways. I think both sides of the fence will make me a better rider and make both of my horses better mounts.

Ride On...

Adamantane
May. 24, 2007, 11:49 PM
While I'm pretty sure no one looked at the previous videos of the reining and cutting horses since there weren't any comments.

I don't ride western pleasure, I thought these videos might contribute to the conversation since they were delivered from the judges perspective.

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKCVs8oDAUc

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfO9EFd7ZaE&mode=related&search=


Just finished watching all of those and these, too.

Thank you ever so much for posting them. Sincerely. Honestly don't recall half an hour of videos I've seen on COTH the past few months that I found more engaging.

Now as a pretty ignorant latecomer to the horse universe, I can't make any wise and authoritative statements about what I just saw because, frankly, I was unsure in many cases what I was seeing, what to look for or what the criteria are. (Wish the audio for part 2 of the WP links had been available, because part 1 was very informative.)

(So many Western events are rooted in practical applications still current today. Having grown up in the city, I haven't a clue what those are, unfortunately and that detracts. Of course I doubt some dressage afficianados have much appreciation for the nature of the military maneuvers giving rise to their discipline, either.)

What I could do was to be awed by the reining and cutting horses, by their crisp responses, and by the exceptional balance and aplomb of the riders. I don't understand the reins and bridle arrangements and how the horses receive their cues, but however it is done, it works as effectively as anything I have seen on the other side of the divide.

Some things stood out as different in terms of the carriage of the horses, especially in the WP segments but since I don't understand the context, I have no basis for a meaningful judgment.

Anybody who disparages the obvious horsemanship of the riders, or the striking partnership of horse and rider, to borrow a term from elsewhere, is ignorant. I don't need to be an accomplished rider to recognize that.

I hope everyone will take the opportunity to view the links you so kindly provided, des. They will correct some presuppositions, provide new appreciation for the amazing range of things that humans and horses can do cooperatively together, and be a thoroughly enjoyable way to spend half hour or so, especially if you have a big monitor.

If I did 'know what I were doing' [see signature] how much more I could have taken away from these! In that sense I envy the more knowledgeable COTHers whose eyes won't be as limited as mine when they replay them, and who therefore can appreciate what goes into the performances even better than I.:yes:

Thanks again!

learner
May. 24, 2007, 11:56 PM
Somewhat answering the OPs ?

I'd most certainly be lost if I had to ride Western. Someone tried to show me how to attach a cinch a couple years back and I couldn't figure it out. So I guess I'll stick with dressage for now, much easier (& lighter) tack with which to hassle.

des
May. 25, 2007, 02:11 AM
So many Western events are rooted in practical applications still current today.

Adamantane, that statement reminded me of a few things.

We all understand where the cutting, cow and reining work came from.. the need to work with cattle. However, I don't think that people realise just where the pitter patter gaits of the western pleasure horse originated. It's actually quite simple if you think about it.

Can you imagine trotting one of these big warmbloods or big moving tbs all day? Ranchers have traditionally had to ride fences, go over lots of terrain looking for cattle across many miles a day. Some still live this lifestyle. Which horse would you prefer? A big moving animated trot or a pitter patter jog or lope?

CLB said it right, all disciplines have their problems.

I look forward to learning dressage and enhancing my skills in both disciplines.

slc2
May. 25, 2007, 07:04 AM
Most informal riding in America is done with a Western saddle. Most dressage riders didn't start their lives riding dressage. Most oif them rode Western at one time or another, and depending on the area of the country, they may have only ridden western before getting interested in dressage.

The fact that not all dressage riders are intimately familiar with how Western Riding horses perform, or what the classes are like, bothers me not at all. There are only so many hours in the day. People are not required to be interested in everything, and I've never seen any proof that knowing different riding styles makes a rider better or worse.

There is often a tendency for people to try to make it seem as if all kinds of riding are the same. They aren't. For example, the flying changes in hunters and REining are very different, are trained differently, and have a different end result.

Just because two things have a superficial similarity doesn't make them the same; trying to use the same methods for all riding divisions results either in a disaster or a kind of horse dressing, in which the horse does all events in the same profile, and really all it is is a tack change. That isn't unusual, in fact, and while many people get a lot of pleasure out of doing this sort of thing, it doesn't necessarily come up to the same thing as concentrating on one kind of riding and excelling at it. To each his own. What one person likes to do isn't always what another person likes to do, and there's way, way too much judging going on of what someone is supposed to like to do. I can enjoy and admire any kind of riding, without insisting they are the same as dressage. There are different kinds of riding becasue different people like different things.

monstrpony
May. 25, 2007, 08:42 AM
The fact that not all dressage riders are intimately familiar with how Western Riding horses perform, or what the classes are like, bothers me not at all. There are only so many hours in the day. People are not required to be interested in everything, and I've never seen any proof that knowing different riding styles makes a rider better or worse.

I agree completely.


What one person likes to do isn't always what another person likes to do, and there's way, way too much judging going on of what someone is supposed to like to do.

But there seems to be confusion between "judging what someone likes to do" with "judging what someone else does with little knowledge of what it is; condemning simply because it isn't dressage".

Not knowing or caring about another discipline is not a license to bash it. That's what people in other disciplines object to.

Either smile and say "bless your heart" or smile and keep you mouth shut, unless you genuinely know enough about it to pass judgement. (this is a generic "you", not directed at slc, who sometimes says too much but, granted, generally does know what she's talking about).

Aggie4Bar
May. 25, 2007, 09:36 AM
so far this thread is proving that the answer is NO to the OP question: "Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? "I'm a little confused by the wording of the question: Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? ... which seems to imply that each of us once knew or remotely cared about western riding.

I'm not sure why there's any expectation that everyone who studies dressage would or should be up to speed on discipline that's completely irrelevant dressage. I certainly wouldn't expect the average competetive western rider out there - regardless of western discipline - to be up to speed on any english discipline. Different strokes for different folks.

STF
May. 25, 2007, 09:43 AM
I'm not sure why there's any expectation that everyone who studies dressage would or should be up to speed on discipline that's completely irrelevant dressage. I certainly wouldn't expect the average competetive western rider out there - regardless of western discipline - to be up to speed on any english discipline. Different strokes for different folks.

Exactly!

slc2
May. 25, 2007, 10:34 AM
on the other hand, people without an intimate familiarity with a discipline often are seen as 'bashing' it when they aren't at all. they just don't understand something, it's the opposite of what they were taught, or are parroting something they were told, and quite often, they have no idea HOW or WHY something that comes out of their mouth sets someone off so badly.

it can be how it's done, but often there's no really charming way to do it.

(this did happen:) some elderly little old lady says innocently at a show, 'do they get them to do an extended trot by putting chains or rollers on their ankles?' winds up getting mugged by 10 outraged DQ's, and i'd have to say, it's the DQ's who need the valium, not the little old lady. she's just asking that cause she lived in kentucky for 60 yrs and watched people train gaited horses with rollers on their ankles. she isn't deserving of a 90 minute lecture on why dressage doesn't do that and how competition has gone to hell in a handbasket.

still, someone who watches a collected dressage horse for the first time and screams, 'Jesus, that horse is dead lame!' when it's not, they just don't understand what a collected canter, will get a different reaction than someone who says, 'tell me, what kind of gait is this horse doing right now and how is this gait judged?'

swgarasu
May. 25, 2007, 10:38 AM
We see the basis of our movements in horses at liberty, and then we act to improve or bring out the abilities of our mounts. On the other hand, I have never seen a horse at liberty lope with its head low or jog for extended periods of time. A horse has a natural stride length and way of going that makes it easy to travel and manuever without a huge energy expenditure, to me, western pleasure ignore this. That's not to say that dressage isn't taxing on the horse, and I really don't want to get into the whole debate of riding being unnatural, I just see dressage as a "lesser evil."

If you've ever watched a wild horse, or even a domestic one in turn-out, you can't deny the fact that they are amazing to watch when they cavort about.

Heh, one of the goals of dressage is to be able to adjust your horse- to collect them, to extend them, to control the rhythm, bend, etc. Our horses don't naturally carry themselves round and swinging in the back and working off the hindquarters all the time- it's too much work! It takes years to develop a dressage horse because it's NOT natural, you have to work against the horse's natural tendency to be lopsided and crooked. As for manufacturing things- every watch a horse being taught to piaffe? It's genarally someone walking next to him touching his legs with a whip to teach him to move his legs that way- I think that is probably as unnatural (if not more) as having a horse lope or jog...

I'm not a western pleasure fan- can't stand to watch it. I admire the cutting horses though and I think reiners are fun to watch too, though I do think it's hard on the horses. But again, one of the big struggles with upper level dressage horses seems to be soundness as well.

xeroxchick
May. 25, 2007, 10:46 AM
[QUOTE=des;2457687]Adamantane, that statement reminded me of a few things.
Can you imagine trotting one of these big warmbloods or big moving tbs all day? Ranchers have traditionally had to ride fences, go over lots of terrain looking for cattle across many miles a day. Some still live this lifestyle. Which horse would you prefer? A big moving animated trot or a pitter patter jog or lope?
QUOTE]

Actually, when I have been on ranches a few times and doing ranch work, the cowboys valued a trot that would get them from A to B - no pokeyness at all. In fact, all of them posted at the trot.
I actually don'tthink dressage is so natural. Looking more and more like gaited horse stuff to me.

Aggie4Bar
May. 25, 2007, 10:56 AM
(this did happen:) some elderly little old lady says innocently at a show, 'do they get them to do an extended trot by putting chains or rollers on their ankles?' winds up getting mugged by 10 outraged DQ's, and i'd have to say, it's the DQ's who need the valium, not the little old lady. she's just asking that cause she lived in kentucky for 60 yrs and watched people train gaited horses with rollers on their ankles. Reminds me of my own grandmother. ;) She always loved horses but was never exposed to them beyond working ranch horses. The first time she saw a video of my WB mare (at liberty), she asked, "How did they train her to move like that?" She just couldn't believe it was natural. When I backed this same mare, my dad filmed it so he could show her. She was amazed that the horse didn't buck. She thought you had to ride them out rodeo style like you see in movies. To this day, I don't think she's convinced that that was the first time a person had been her back. :lol:

Some misperceptions are so funny, I don't know how someone could get wound up over it.

Sandy M
May. 25, 2007, 10:57 AM
Adamantane, that statement reminded me of a few things.

We all understand where the cutting, cow and reining work came from.. the need to work with cattle. However, I don't think that people realise just where the pitter patter gaits of the western pleasure horse originated. It's actually quite simple if you think about it.

Can you imagine trotting one of these big warmbloods or big moving tbs all day? Ranchers have traditionally had to ride fences, go over lots of terrain looking for cattle across many miles a day. Some still live this lifestyle. Which horse would you prefer? A big moving animated trot or a pitter patter jog or lope?

CLB said it right, all disciplines have their problems.

I look forward to learning dressage and enhancing my skills in both disciplines.


Western Pleasure is still pretty artificial, and I remember an article from The Western Horseman in the '50s emphasizing the need for a FAST walk and a slow lope. Ever see a FAST walk in WP these days? Didn't think so.

As far as relative gaits: WP sure didn't derive from working ranch horses. In fact, one ranch in, I believe, either West Texas or eastern N.M. used not QH but Standardbreds. They had MILES of fence to check, in fairly rough contry where ATVs or other motorized transport weren't viable. They used the Standardbreds because they covered a lot of ground in a big trot. Cowboys can (and do) post! Miller Ranch in California used to use TBs. Ther raised horses for the track, and the ones that didn't cut it for racing became cow horses.

STF
May. 25, 2007, 11:02 AM
I actually don'tthink dressage is so natural. Looking more and more like gaited horse stuff to me.

Then you really dont understand the true principals or training scale. If you watch our horses play in the pasture you would see them do most of those moves on their own! :)

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:04 AM
I'm a little confused by the wording of the question: Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? ... which seems to imply that each of us once knew or remotely cared about western riding.

I'm not sure why there's any expectation that everyone who studies dressage would or should be up to speed on discipline that's completely irrelevant dressage. I certainly wouldn't expect the average competetive western rider out there - regardless of western discipline - to be up to speed on any english discipline. Different strokes for different folks.

i am a competetive western rider as well as a competetive show jumper and hunter. i am also training one horse to to do eventing. i also trail ride in my western saddle. i don't care for western pleasure because it does but artificial gaits on the horses and i know how most are trained to get that gait "THE LOPE" spur in the front shoulder until the horse drops the shoulder on the inside and eventually the horse gets it just like with any training. I barrel race, pole bend, trail classes, showmanship, and i was actually training a horse to be a reiner until i sold him. i love all riding and its actually more different strokes for different HORSES! my jumper loves to jump my barrel horse loves to run the barrels and pole bend but hates jumping my eventing horse loves to show off in dressage and then jump, i have a walker that loves to trail ride but put him in a ring and he HATES IT!!! they are all great sports but just because some ride western doesn't mean we don't know english.

slc2
May. 25, 2007, 11:05 AM
i know people love to think whatever they do with their horses must have a noble origin lost in the sands of time, and directly connected to some romantic heritage.

the pack trip i went on years ago, there were quiet slow horses for the tourists, but not for working on the ranch. on the ranch part of the place, they were riding these big tall long fast moving animals and they all posted to the trot and they pretty much flew around the place. the horses were very fast. they looked alot more like Walers than quarter horses. as one guy told me, 'i wanna get back to the ranch before i die'. they were bringing cattle in and out and riding fences.

a little heavy sprinty animal may do them very well when they are cutting in a pen, but i think there are a lot of other kinds of jobs on a western ranch. i've seen a lot of different types of horses on ranches, everything from a western chunk draft horse to line horses to - a warmblood for Momma to do her "dressidge-in'".

Aggie4Bar
May. 25, 2007, 11:07 AM
they are all great sports but just because some ride western doesn't mean we don't know english.Who said otherwise?

slc2
May. 25, 2007, 11:11 AM
the 400 lb gorilla.

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:12 AM
" average competetive western rider out there - regardless of western discipline - to be up to speed on any english discipline"


maybe i misunderstood but it sounded like when you wrote the above statement. i'm not starting an arguement i just think different horses enjoy different things and some of us ride it all and love it all.

STF
May. 25, 2007, 11:15 AM
great sports but just because some ride western doesn't mean we don't know english.

There is no such things as "just english." ;)
Each one of our disiplines have different traits and needed

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 11:17 AM
Then you really dont understand the true principals or training scale. If you watch our horses play in the pasture you would see them do most of those moves on their own! :)

So horses NEVER jog or lope in the pasture with their heads down? Ya ok

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:20 AM
There is no such things as "just english." ;)
Each one of our disiplines have different traits and needed


well i understand that :lol: :lol: i just don't want to list all the disiplines out so i put it in a WIDE since of the word just like most are doing western in this post. :D

STF
May. 25, 2007, 11:22 AM
So horses NEVER jog or lope in the pasture with their heads down? Ya ok

I guess. Mine dont have the neck set to stay that way for long and be comfortable.
Im not going to get into a caca throwing contest with you. Each horse is bred for the disipline. I dont care for WP stuff, you dont care for the Dressage stuff. Let it go and move on please!
:winkgrin:

Aggie4Bar
May. 25, 2007, 11:22 AM
Ah. My point was that although some people pursue multiple disciplines, diversity is not required and shouldn't be expected. People are entitled to different interests.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 11:23 AM
So i read all of the above. Thank you to all of the people who agreed that every dressage element of training is not natural and that we do use whips spurs and even a double bridle (gasp) to get some of these movements by force or asking hard if you prefer. Thank you for all of you that reminded me never to bring up western anything around the DQs again (whew) and only talk of things euro.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 11:24 AM
I guess. Mine dont have the neck set to stay that way for long and be comfortable.
Im not going to get into a caca throwing contest with you. Each horse is bred for the disipline. I dont care for WP stuff, you dont care for the Dressage stuff. Let it go and move on please!
:winkgrin:

My freaking arab even lopes and jogs with his head low after he has ran around and spent his extra energy. Come now

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:27 AM
Ah. My point was that although some people pursue multiple disciplines, diversity is not required and shouldn't be expected. People are entitled to different interests.


no it shouldn't be and you are right on that but like i said to each his own. hey the best thing is an opinion is like an A$$hole everybody has one. some people don't like this some don't like that. who cares and go on I just like it all except WP. :lol:

STF
May. 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
So that every dressage element of training is not natural and that we do use whips spurs and even a double bridle (gasp) to get some of these movements by force or asking hard if you prefer.

Again, this shows how much you really do NOT know about the sport. When suppleness and relaxation is the main part of our sport up to Grand Prix, then it cant be forced to much. Please dont pass on your "dressage knowlege without some more training and facts, please"


Thank you for all of you that reminded me never to bring up western anything around the DQs again (whew) and only talk of things euro

This IS a Dressage Board. Im sure you can find some WP BB's somewhere, cant you???



My freaking arab even lopes and jogs with his head low after he has ran around and spent his extra energy. Come now

Good for your cute little Arab! :D

mbm
May. 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKCVs8oDAUc&NR=1

i found this..... not sure if it was posted already - but it gives an idea of what ios good in WP.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 11:34 AM
I bet your dressage horse unlike mine comes out his stall in a perfect piaffe huh? NO hard requests required? Well then I agree with you if so natural lets just all take off our spurs put down our whips and ride without a saddle. I have trained with an ex dutch olympic trainer and she forces (oops did I say that) my horse when he needs it and ask when he needs it but I am sure youll say eve she is wrong LOL. My horse loves to canter in place and bounce off the walls (high energy) but abso hates shoulder in and let me tell you it isnt natural for him at all he does not do it in the turn-out therefore we make him do it and it is manufactured. (gasp)

mp
May. 25, 2007, 11:35 AM
Do dressagies even know what western is anymore?

Yes, I do.


Thank you for all of you that reminded me never to bring up western anything around the DQs again (whew) and only talk of things euro.

Oh please. Your post was intended to be a pot stirrer from the get go. Now go ride your horse in whatever way you like and enjoy yourself.

Aggie4Bar
May. 25, 2007, 11:36 AM
Thank you for all of you that reminded me never to bring up western anything around the DQs again (whew) and only talk of things euro.Would you have ever gone to a WP board and posted a thread titled, "Do WP riders even know what Dressage is anymore?"

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:37 AM
your horse canters in place??:confused:

STF
May. 25, 2007, 11:39 AM
I bet your dressage horse unlike mine comes out his stall in a perfect piaffe huh?

Well....... :lol: if he is being taken out for collection he does a super piaffe and passage all the way down the barn isle. :lol: :lol:

kristinq
May. 25, 2007, 11:40 AM
I do agree with tempichange, the horse in the first video looked very lame. Not to mention mechanical. This video does not give me the thrill and immediate urge to go out and ride like most advanced dressage videos would. That's not because I don't like Western, it's because there was so spark and animation in the horses' movement.

fuller0819
May. 25, 2007, 11:41 AM
a lope is nice what is not so nice is the peanut rollers they have going now days and the lope is ARTIFICIAL its not natural. some WP folks do keep the natural lope but most shows i go to with WP in it is a lope that looks like the poor horse is about to go down on the leg. its like a limp, just very overly done.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 11:44 AM
Thanks for that post. You notice I did not post a horse crawling along bobbing and jumping each tiny step. I tried to do a service by putting a three beat lope and the lead changes to show balance. Got creamed anyway. Thanks for your story! I do AQHA, Dressage, and Aphc right now and love all of them for what they offer.

SillyHorse
May. 25, 2007, 11:52 AM
What service were you trying to do? Sorry, pot stirring is not a service.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 12:00 PM
I agree with you she is crazy isnt she? My warmblood always trots not jogs with his tail up in the turn out. My warmblood even dances in time to music if he hears it. My REAL dressage horse will leave his stall and go do his tests by himself LOL> I have to stop him from trying to get me to salute all of the time.

STF
May. 25, 2007, 12:02 PM
And dont forget about your gold medals from the Olympics as well as all the World Titles you have won in WP over the years, etc. :lol:

fourhorses
May. 25, 2007, 01:00 PM
I'm with Auventura Two -- a good horse is a good horse; a good rider a good rider; try and appreciate them for what they are.
Hopefully the tide is changing in wp, they are trying to get rid of the peanut rolling, trope/tralk, dead heads but it is hard. Don't believe that the discipline is bad due to a bad fad.
There have been fads and made unsound horses, unnatural training methods in dressage too -- don't be so quick to cast the stone.

NoDQhere
May. 25, 2007, 01:02 PM
Yes, many of us do know what western (pleasure) is. That's why we don't do it anymore;)

Seriously, though, WP (and it's close relatives) are as close to the opposite of Dressage as you can get.

Dressage enhances the horses gaits and natural abilities. The gaits improve (grow "bigger) as strength and training progresses up the training scale.

WP training diminishes (tones down) the gaits, makes the steps shorter and slower as the horses progresses in training. BUT, in today's competition, that IS correct. And the horses ARE bred very downhill to accomodate this style.

And if you think WP trainers "just ask nice" to get that "look" you are sadly mistaken.

If the goal is to turn this thread into a real trainwreck, then I'll add this fuel. It is a whole lot harder to force or abuse a big ole strappin Warmblood than it is a itty bitty pony sized QH.

fourhorses
May. 25, 2007, 01:15 PM
Patty, not all AQs are itty bitty, pony sized anymore.
And from what I've seen of my daughter's mare (who is small in stature but mighty big in other ways) I think I'd rather tangle with my strapping WB on one of his bad days than her on one of hers -- she isn't an easy ride in a lot of ways, very sensitive and doesn't like pilot errors -- no ham fists, unbalanced seat, or bumpy legs for that girl, or you the rider will be sorry.

ideayoda
May. 25, 2007, 01:18 PM
I did alot of western eq (nationally competitive) and grew up on a working cattle ranch. And what is shown today (reining/eq/etc) are as far from balance/collectability/usefulness as is todays dressage/crest release/etc as it can be. At one point h/j, dressage, western, etc ALL horses were ridden in balance. Collect(ability) was to serve a purpose of usefulness (in the real world) and ease (ridability/etc. Now, all training is to make it easy for some rider to get on an steer and win a ribbon. I cannot stand the sad demeanor of those western horses of today, nor the arrogance of the cheering fans, for me the character (and movement) of the horse is gone.

NOMIOMI1
May. 25, 2007, 01:25 PM
"It is a whole lot harder to force or abuse a big ole strappin Warmblood than it is a itty bitty pony sized QH."


Your right he looks so puny ya just wanna beat him.

http://www.invitationonlyllc.com/

sm
May. 25, 2007, 01:31 PM
I'm a little confused by the wording of the question: Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? ... which seems to imply that each of us once knew or remotely cared about western riding.

I'm not sure why there's any expectation that everyone who studies dressage would or should be up to speed on discipline that's completely irrelevant dressage. I certainly wouldn't expect the average competetive western rider out there - regardless of western discipline - to be up to speed on any english discipline. Different strokes for different folks.

It clearly depends on your definition of dressage:

- From the FEIs defintition of Dressage: "Dressage, the highest expression of horse training, is considered to be the art of equestrian sport and is used as the groundwork for all the other disciplines." http://www.horsesport.org/d/about/about.htm

- To Repeat: "Dressage... is used as the groundwork for all the other disciplines. "

- And this is clearly in evidence in the OP's video: "High quality is revealed by freedom and regularity of the paces, lightness and ease of the movements. The horse gives the impression of doing the movements on his own accord and shows immediate and even intuitive response to the rider’s commands. " http://www.horsesport.org/d/about/about.htm

- French to english literal translation of Dressage: To Train.

If one understands dressage one must understand the very, very basics of training ANY horse and rider. So I don't agree with this quote: "I'm not sure why there's any expectation that everyone who studies dressage would or should be up to speed on discipline that's completely irrelevant..."

fourhorses
May. 25, 2007, 01:34 PM
Yes, I know that's the sad case -- that this is what is happening IY, but not every western horse and rider is doing that, so they shouldn't be included in the bashing. It isn't a good to generalize about anyone/thing -- you risk throwing out/disregarding those bright spots of good if you do. You risk really not knowing about something.
My daughter rides a wp horse; she also toodles around with reining and would like to start working cows with her; the mare will also do some decent dressage maneuvers because Mom here fiddled with her -- my daughter uses some dressage school figures in her day to day work to help her get the mare more responsive and balanced; her trainer encourages the school figures and making the mare collect and lengthen (granted the trainer is an old time actual ranch cowgirl, but they are still out there); she also encourages lots of riding outdoors. My daughter doesn't use any real gadgets other than some basic training tools I've seen in dressage barns -- a lot of the time she just schools the mare in a simple snaffle. They're not all unbalanced, impure gaited, broken necked puds, imho. There are still some out there that do it "the old fashioned way".

SaturdayNightLive
May. 25, 2007, 01:38 PM
This has got to be one of the strangest threads I have ever seen on the Dressage board...

Bogey2
May. 25, 2007, 01:53 PM
SNL, you are so right. I found myself humming the "Trolling" song for some reason when I saw this.....:lol:

cuatx55
May. 25, 2007, 03:05 PM
This thread is strange...

What's the big deal? I don't know about driving, endurance, or jumping either...and I ride in a western saddle when I trail ride my dressage horse. If someone is offended that dressage riders don't regularly appreciate the beauty of a western horse, then they must be pretty stressed out people.

I board with western riders, they do their thing, I do mine. They don't care about dressage principles at all. If there was some piece of info to gather from it that related, I would be open to learning.

QHryder
May. 25, 2007, 11:24 PM
The Wp that is now being shown is shut down and forced. They look like pump jacks. I show the quarter horse circuit and have for 5 years. I showed wp for the first year. After that I went to the HUS. I can't stand how they force the horses to dog track, head bob, hop on the front and drag the back leg. It is one of the worst rides to sit. You hear expressions from the riders like 'lope a hole in the ground', 'lope that goes nowhere', 'deep hocked' etc. Yet they are claiming that the horses naturally move that way. I for one would call the vet if my horse came loping up to the gait from the field the way they make those horses move. JMHO.

Sabine
May. 26, 2007, 12:01 AM
This thread is strange...

What's the big deal? I don't know about driving, endurance, or jumping either...and I ride in a western saddle when I trail ride my dressage horse. If someone is offended that dressage riders don't regularly appreciate the beauty of a western horse, then they must be pretty stressed out people.

I board with western riders, they do their thing, I do mine. They don't care about dressage principles at all. If there was some piece of info to gather from it that related, I would be open to learning.



Hey People!
Live and let live- each discipline has it's values and excitement and attraction!
I for one love a real western horse- like a cowboy horse- with a big attitude and stamina up the wazoo...like you can see in the movies...don't know much about the other stuff...nonetheless- whoever put up this thread- was maybe looking for some serious confrontation...well I am not into that...anything to do with a horse- done well- is just great to watch! That's my view...;)

perpetual_novice
May. 26, 2007, 08:24 AM
We didn't start it.

I spent a good time around cow horses. Well-bred quarter horses who, actually work on the ranch. These were rumuda bred qh's who took top ten in the AQHA Rumuda competition and went on to successful reining and cutting careers with ammie owners. They move nothing like modern WP horses, and look nothing like them as well.

They do stand up to years of actual work. I've seen some pretty successful WP horses, who do not look like that, and actually do define the ideals of WP. That doesn't define it, and looks quite... bastardized.

There is a difference between relaxed and mechanical- relaxed actually has forward motion, and allows that gaits to actually be utlized however. You can be relaxed and go that slow. Relaxation doesn't look lame. That is lame, or looking very sore.


While dressage has its basis in battle, it really came about and was sustained for royalty, it went away from it's war horse roots very quickly. And it is very much more than just a head set and head bob.


Have to agree 100% with the above. I board with someone who does WP and that poor horse would not have a clue as a working ranch horse. I started following the Western world again through various magazines and seeing some shows when I had a QH for a few years and could not believe what the western show ideal had become.

That's why I really think the question to ask is: Do WP riders even know what western is anymore?

(I'll stop feeding the troll now).

xeroxchick
May. 26, 2007, 10:45 AM
Then you really dont understand the true principals or training scale. If you watch our horses play in the pasture you would see them do most of those moves on their own! :)

Ummm...no, they don't - not for the sustained period of time dressage does. I never got all the emphasis on the horse carrying more weight on the hocks - when that is just not natural for the horse.

Equibrit
May. 26, 2007, 10:51 AM
Well - it's just not "natural" for a horse to carry an extra 100+ lb lump on his back is it? Maybe that would account for it? RECKON?

It is eminently preferable that you use the extra weight to aid in driving forward through the hocks, rather than have to "push" the extra weight around because it's dumped over the front legs. (In any discipline)

Chipngrace
May. 26, 2007, 11:10 AM
Something my bo's daughter said to me the other day when I took my 15.3hh pleasure/halter bred Paint out to do gallop sets with her 18hh TB, I told her all of my mare's siblings do pleasure and she said "just because they do pleasure doesn't mean they don't want to gallop and jump" true that.

I'm schooling my mare for a beginner novice horse trial in September

STF
May. 26, 2007, 01:28 PM
Ummm...no, they don't - not for the sustained period of time dressage does. I never got all the emphasis on the horse carrying more weight on the hocks - when that is just not natural for the horse.

A lot of dressage horses are built uphill and with strong hindquarters and such. They are bred this way to do the work. Im not going into huge details, but european registries have been breeding and keeping records for years to help inprove and accomidate the horse. The horses of today and not like the horses of 20yrs ago. They are built to do the job. So, I disagree - even in play, our horses dont go around hanging around on the forhand.
This is my Mr. Handsome at play in random pics - he is not going around with his butt 2x higher than his shoulder. He is not made to do it and thank God does not move like that.
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/miscpics.htm

Many of the dressage horses who are properly bred have natural engagement, the riders/trainers just build upon it. As my signature line says...... "Dont breed a horse that can get it done!" ;)

xeroxchick
May. 26, 2007, 01:35 PM
Well - it's just not "natural" for a horse to carry an extra 100+ lb lump on his back is it? Maybe that would account for it? RECKON?

It is eminently preferable that you use the extra weight to aid in driving forward through the hocks, rather than have to "push" the extra weight around because it's dumped over the front legs. (In any discipline)

Why? If they are built to carry 60% of their own weight over their front? Maybe why so many hock injuries? RECKON?

STF
May. 26, 2007, 01:38 PM
Why? If they are built to carry 60% of their own weight over their front? Maybe why so many hock injuries? RECKON?

Can you please tell me where you get those facts??

Liz
May. 26, 2007, 02:25 PM
When managed correctly dressage horses can last a good long time. Look at Florino and Idocus. Both doing respectably well in their ripe old age. Hock injuries??? Horses get injured in every discipline.

If you want to bash dressage and go on and on about how great WP is then why not go to a different forum. Why are you wasting your time here?

Equibrit
May. 26, 2007, 02:49 PM
It is estimated that the horse carries about 60% of his own body weight on his front limbs when standing at rest with no rider. Not really relevant when discussing the moving ridden horse. RECKON?
He can displace a considerable amount of weight to the rear by just raising his head.

SillyHorse
May. 26, 2007, 03:40 PM
I think it's widely accepted that a horse, left to its own devices, carries at least 60% of its weight in front. The head and neck are in front, and they add considerable weight to what the front legs have to support.

sm
May. 26, 2007, 04:50 PM
A lot of dressage horses are built uphill and with strong hindquarters and such. They are bred this way to do the work.... even in play, our horses dont go around hanging around on the forhand... he is not going around with his butt 2x higher than his shoulder.

Not to pick on anyone person, but it's wrong to assume croup high equals on the forehand. My horse does go around with his butt 2 inches higher than his shoulder: and he's beaten imported WBs with Olympic sire pedigrees in Second, Third, Fourth, I-I, I-II because he balances himself naturally and is not on the forehand. He was national breed champion open (TB) and regional open champion. Nor does he romp and play on the forehand.

I'd agree upper level dressage should be easier for a horse built uphill, and yet I've seen enough uphill built WBs in the ring that were on the forehand and therefore marked down for it. Last I heard, dressage wasn't a breed inspection to be run by any particular registry. Nowhere does the rule book say "built like a giraffe only." If my horse puts in the best test, he wins.

So look at my horse standing with his championship ribbons and run screaming from the show grounds for all I care -- but go back to dressage basics while you're at it and figure out why his butt 2 inches higher than his shoulder does not mean on the forehand.

kellyb
May. 26, 2007, 05:01 PM
I can never show my STB that. She would be really po'd that somewhere in the world horses are allowed, no, encouraged to 4-beat. Sorry sweetheart, maybe in your next life you'll live with that kind of mommy! :)

That horse does not four beat anywhere in that video except the walk.

You can have a slow lope and still be three beats. You'd have to be, otherwise you would not be the world western riding champion, as four beating sends you to the very bottom of the placings. Furthermore it is very obvious when a horse four beats the lope, as it looks like he is just lame at the trot.

merrygoround
May. 26, 2007, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE=Trakehners2000;
For sake of arguement, Western Pleasure...does nothing to further the useful life of the horse, actually premature collection usually causes arthritic changes in the joints, esp. the hocks, so WP is not for me. I am drawn to sports that encourage the lengthening the useful life of horses. JMHO[/QUOTE]

Owwww!!:eek: Pulease dont call THAT collection.

That's just slowing down the trot so that the rider doesn't need to learn to sit the trot!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

DancingPretense
May. 26, 2007, 08:56 PM
Horse looks sore when he trots, is completely on his front end and has a very artifical tied down head set. No thank you.

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 10:07 PM
So it does! A fairly well kept secret, apparently. Thank you for sharing. No doubts for even the most skeptical now. Wonder how many others are astonished as I was?

(Western probably plays better politically for Americans of all political persuasions, because it is, well, indisputably American. Who can gainsay that?)

President Regan rode western in his movies, I don't think that was politics....and there are pictures of him in Illinois at Temple farms riding in "english clothes". It is not news to me that he did both, have known that forever. There are problably even movies where he rode 'english'.
I have always been a versatile gal, have won at western riding and dressage...and I have met hundreds of folks who ride 3 or more disciplines, heck, just go watch an Arabian show, you'll for sure meet at least 20 there...

All I was saying in the other post was that WP doesn't encourage soundness or improvement in the horse, though neither does saddleseat, but that is a whole other topic...

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 10:17 PM
:lol:
Adamantane, that statement reminded me of a few things.

We all understand where the cutting, cow and reining work came from.. the need to work with cattle. However, I don't think that people realise just where the pitter patter gaits of the western pleasure horse originated. It's actually quite simple if you think about it.

Can you imagine trotting one of these big warmbloods or big moving tbs all day? Ranchers have traditionally had to ride fences, go over lots of terrain looking for cattle across many miles a day. Some still live this lifestyle. Which horse would you prefer? A big moving animated trot or a pitter patter jog or lope?

CLB said it right, all disciplines have their problems.

I look forward to learning dressage and enhancing my skills in both disciplines.

Actually, you'd get the job done faster riding a big moving endurance horse!!! :lol: LOL:)

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 10:30 PM
My freaking arab even lopes and jogs with his head low after he has ran around and spent his extra energy. Come now
Looking for a place to roll???

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 10:44 PM
I bet your dressage horse unlike mine comes out his stall in a perfect piaffe huh? NO hard requests required? Well then I agree with you if so natural lets just all take off our spurs put down our whips and ride without a saddle. I have trained with an ex dutch olympic trainer and she forces (oops did I say that) my horse when he needs it and ask when he needs it but I am sure youll say eve she is wrong LOL. My horse loves to canter in place and bounce off the walls (high energy) but abso hates shoulder in and let me tell you it isnt natural for him at all he does not do it in the turn-out therefore we make him do it and it is manufactured. (gasp)

Not everyone trains PIAFFE the same. And, actually, you can walk out in my horse's pasture, no anything on him, cue him and yes, he will piaffe at liberty and passage.....it is natural for him, he offered it one day & found out mom gives carrots and praise for that......and he has had it on command ever since then, though he is a smart horse...and I am a consistant 'mom'.;) One of the things my instructor has commented on is that she likes that he loves to piaffe/passage, and that he really enjoys it.

All we did is follow Kyra K.'s advice on rewarding what was offered, so believe it or not, he loves it, was not forced into it, *and* offered it at liberty, we rewarded at liberty and so now, yes, he will do it with out even a halter on him.:yes:

Edited to add:
Why do so many people want to go ridding without a saddle? My best analogy to this is hold an 8 y.o. child on your lap for an hour and tell me how you like those seat bones hurting your leg??? After an hour of that (most likely less) would you like a towel to relieve some of the pain??? How about after that?? Would more padding help? Sure would...So the million dollar question is, what makes you think it is so comfortable and 'natural' for you to ride bareback? I wouldn't want seat bones diggin' in my back, I'd rather have padding & I speak from some experience, since I had to carry a 68 pd. back pack in the US Army, things digging into back, not cool...padding to help...*HUGE* difference...I can also vote for the comfort of a balance load that is spread out over an area, unbalance load or a load on a small area...not cool!!!

STF
May. 26, 2007, 10:52 PM
But Trakehners.... the point is, our guys are made and built to "offer" this movement. It comes natural to them.

WB (Trakenhers mostly) are some of the oldest breeds and bloodlines that have been studies for centuries. I have to say Traks are the few REAL pure breds. Granted the others elite Euro registries are still very strick on mares that can produce stallion off spring or SPS mares, etc - but the point is, they have noted and followed and studied the changes and breeding in charteristics to make it easier for horses to do our sport. Flyinge (State Stud of Sweden) was established in 1661 to give an example.
So, our horses offer - because they CAN and its easy for them. That is my opinion of it all.
:D

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 10:56 PM
Well....... :lol: if he is being taken out for collection he does a super piaffe and passage all the way down the barn isle. :lol: :lol:

LOL!!!! ROTFL!!!!!! I am taking Shad to get collected in the a.m. and am sure I will think of this post and LOL!!!!!!!!!! :D :cool: :lol: :yes:

Trakehners2000
May. 26, 2007, 11:01 PM
I'm with Auventura Two -- a good horse is a good horse; a good rider a good rider; try and appreciate them for what they are.
Hopefully the tide is changing in wp, they are trying to get rid of the peanut rolling, trope/tralk, dead heads but it is hard. Don't believe that the discipline is bad due to a bad fad.
There have been fads and made unsound horses, unnatural training methods in dressage too -- don't be so quick to cast the stone.

They have been saying the tide is changing in WP since 1986...some slow tide

fourhorses
May. 26, 2007, 11:59 PM
All I was trying to point out is that the stock horse associations have put in their rule books specific judging instructions on dinging the peanut rollers, trope/tralks, and the dead heads. This is a very entrenched problem for them -- after all some of the judges are trainers; trainers who have made a fair amount of money training these very things, and there are a lot of riders out there who are pitching a fit about getting dinged for such things -- it's hard to root out something that everybody seems to be doing and that has been the winning thing for so long.
How long has the super deep work been popular in dressage, as a parallel? And how much controversy has surrounded that?
Not meaning to start another train wreck here, but every discipline has its "latest thing" that ends up sticking around for quite some time because someone, or some people, are winning with it.

tempichange
May. 27, 2007, 08:22 AM
How long has the super deep work been popular in dressage, as a parallel? And how much controversy has surrounded that?
Not meaning to start another train wreck here, but every discipline has its "latest thing" that ends up sticking around for quite some time because someone, or some people, are winning with it.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but "super deep" and "roll kur/hyper-flexation" are two very different things.

monstrpony
May. 27, 2007, 08:51 AM
Edited to add:
Why do so many people want to go ridding without a saddle? My best analogy to this is hold an 8 y.o. child on your lap for an hour and tell me how you like those seat bones hurting your leg??? After an hour of that (most likely less) would you like a towel to relieve some of the pain??? How about after that?? Would more padding help? Sure would...So the million dollar question is, what makes you think it is so comfortable and 'natural' for you to ride bareback? I wouldn't want seat bones diggin' in my back, I'd rather have padding & I speak from some experience, since I had to carry a 68 pd. back pack in the US Army, things digging into back, not cool...padding to help...*HUGE* difference...I can also vote for the comfort of a balance load that is spread out over an area, unbalance load or a load on a small area...not cool!!!

I do believe this is why people who ride across serious country for many hours per day and work with cattle tend to ride in saddles that distribute the weight across a larger part of the horse's back--i.e., *good* western saddles. My former dressage instructor, who is having the "cowboy" that I work with now help start a difficult WB filly--and is very pleased with the results so far--got on said filly with the cowboy's Wade tree saddle and said that the balance was comparable to her Prestige dressage saddle and she's be happy to ride in it at any time. Now, this isn't a saddle you'll find in any WP show pen, but it IS a real working type saddle. I know endurance riders use saddles that are more minimal than most western saddles, but they don't often have cows on the end of a rope, dallied off to their saddles ;) and I'll wager that the weight on many endurance saddles is more distributed than on many dressage saddles. (many, not all)

My point being that I don't think dressage folks have exclusive claim to the high road in terms of kindness to their horse's backs. I realize that you weren't trying to say they do, but this is another example of why people need to use a smaller, more selective hammer (or be more widely knowledgable) when critiquing all things western.

I also realize that most of this thread that is critical IS aimed at peanut-rolling WP practices, and I'm right there with you on that score. The horse that made me seek out the cowboy's help in the first place is one that had been mentally fried by some really bad WP training; would not hold a bit to save his life, and went completely mentally absent under any pressure at all, a wicked combination. And, yes, we have overcome the worst of it, but it was no quick fix; before trying the cowboy, two years with the help of some pretty high-priced dressage folks, steeped in WB tradition, I couldn't make a dent in it. Of course some of THAT may have been because we didn't realize that the horse had also been trained to go slower, and slooower, and slooowwwer, in response to spurs :rolleyes:. Try pushing THAT out to the bit ... Ah, yes, the delightful spur-stop (where IS that barfing icon??). (Which is why I can occasionally be seen working cows carrying a dressage whip ;) I'll never be coordinated enough to rope, so this isn't a big issue, but it can be a BIG help if the cows are particularly unmotivated).

fourhorses
May. 27, 2007, 10:09 AM
All right, I give; you guys are spot on: nobody can ride worth a tinker's unless they ride competitive dressage(which is the only true form of riding), and all western riders are a bunch of stupid cowboy wannabes who make their inky dinky, dead head stock horses lame because none of them can even ride those pieces of trash -- too bad they can't ride a "real" horse like one of the German warmblood breeds, which of course is the only horse for people who can really ride(more on eventer, h/js, and the rest later and what's wrong with them and their horses)...

Seriously, that's the vibe some of you guys give off -- and it isn't a pretty one. I realize this thread was a trollish one, but you fed it to overfull -- and there was no need to really. To not like something within a discipline, to see it as a wrong is one thing -- to categorically bash everyone and everything in it because "mine is sooo much better than" is really quite distateful. Remember how the old saying goes "judge not lest you be judged".

And sorry, super deep, rollkur, overbent, broken necked, whatever you want to call it -- it's pretty much all the same thing to me, maybe some minor variations, but if it looks and quacks like a duck I always say...
There, I'm done feeding the troll.

tempichange
May. 27, 2007, 01:41 PM
All right, I give; you guys are spot on: nobody can ride worth a tinker's unless they ride competitive dressage(which is the only true form of riding), and all western riders are a bunch of stupid cowboy wannabes who make their inky dinky, dead head stock horses lame because none of them can even ride those pieces of trash -- too bad they can't ride a "real" horse like one of the German warmblood breeds, which of course is the only horse for people who can really ride(more on eventer, h/js, and the rest later and what's wrong with them and their horses)...

Never said that, like I said, I have major respect for horses and riders who ride correctly within their discipline. I like working ranch horses, I like cutting horses and have a lot of respect for those who can train them to do the job correctly. I don't have respect for the western pleasure industry nor will I ever until they change the lame mechanical looking practises that they promote in the arena.

[/quote] To not like something within a discipline, to see it as a wrong is one thing -- to categorically bash everyone and everything in it because "mine is sooo much better than" is really quite distateful. Remember how the old saying goes "judge not lest you be judged". [/quote]

Its not just "something" within a discipline if everyone is doing it. It's cross-industry standard sorry to say.


And sorry, super deep, rollkur, overbent, broken necked, whatever you want to call it -- it's pretty much all the same thing to me, maybe some minor variations, but if it looks and quacks like a duck I always say...
There, I'm done feeding the troll.

Here's the difference between deep and hyper flexation (and overbent, broken necked are terms that do not apply to this concept):

Deep: is a slightly stronger version of long and low, but it is used for similar purposes of encouraging the horse to better connected over his back and, importantly to swing his back.

The deep frame is slightly controversial because the horse is behind the vertical in this frame. A very skilled rider can use this technique with good results but mustreturn the horse to a fram in which the poll is the highest point and the horse is on or slightly in front of the vertical. Otherwise, it becomes a bad habit.

Hyperflexation/Rollkur: are synonymous and refer to a horse's rolled-up neck position, that is, a position iwth execessive (hyper) flexation of the poll and neck. HF is a warm-up technique, after which the horse is presented for competition in an "up" frame.

--Cindy Syndor, Dressage Today June 2007.

They are two different ideals, and things that aren't interchangable by a long shot.

HappyTalk
May. 27, 2007, 03:09 PM
I thought the video was a wonderful example of western riding. The horse was not four beating and the poll was pretty consistently wither high as per the rules. As a long time dressage rider who is now also riding western after a 30 year hiatus from it: it is not as easy as it looks. These horses are as specially bred for these events as our dressage horses for dressage.

merrygoround
May. 27, 2007, 03:16 PM
NOMIOMI1 You sound more and more like a troll.:eek:

Pulleeease, go back under the bridge. :lol: :lol: :lol:

All gone!

Lancaster9
May. 27, 2007, 04:09 PM
:D :D :D Personally I'm enjoying this thread, and thanks! Granted it's a strange one in the way it's evolved, but I think there may be some benefit to it yet.... I agree that comparing two vastly different disciplines and horse types and arguing one is wholesale correct while the other is not is a bit silly. However, I wonder if it's still possible that we all might actually LEARN something from this... Maybe it's just my mantle of geekiness showing through but I wonder what would happen if instead of the repartees and barb-throwing we tried to find the similarities btw. WP and dressage? After all, in theory, they have a common origin (I'm no expert but I'm thinking Californio and Vaquero styles). Anyone up to it?? What say you all? Let's get geeky and try to figure out where the two meet and where they diverge and why! Surely there is SOMETHING us "dressagies" can learn from WP and vice versa.... Or is it just time for this classical fool to lay off the wine? :winkgrin: Part one of the challenge: show me some evidence of any horse of any breed performing a discipline's requirements naturally... but WITH weight on it's back. I've never quite understood how one extrapolates from unladen pasture movement to a ridden discipline, and I'm sure you can all enlighten me!

monstrpony
May. 27, 2007, 06:03 PM
There ARE similarities and comonalities between dressage and Californio a/o Vaquero riding styles, but neither have anything whatsoever in common with most of WP as it's practiced today. Thirty years ago, some good WP horses were ridden up in the bridle and in a form of self carriage, but not any more.

The horse I'm working with now was bred to be a WP horse. He has a naturally slow tempo and is what's called a slow-legged mover. But there's a very distinct difference between the jog he was taught in his bad-WP days, and his "normal" trot. The jog is very clearly fractured in the middle of his back, there is NO connection, no possibility of anything remotely related to throughness; the feeling when he transitions between the two is just wierd. He no longer has the physical ability to carry the fractured canter (alas, it does require a significant amount of "incorrect" physical development to metronome around in that gait); when I've tried to ride him with spurs and he has a spur-stop flashback, he can't stay in that canter (which feels like riding underwater in thick pea soup--there is NO forward to it). The canter he has now can be lovely for a QH, but the tempo would still put anyone used to a dressage-bred WB (at the same level of training) to sleep. But, dang, if I'd had this horse 30 years ago when I was showing in the western disciplines in California, I swear I'd be famous today.

I don't know enough about the entirety of WP trainers today to say that there aren't some who accomplish today's standard while preserving & developing the horse's athleticism. Given the specialization in breeding horses of the appropriate type today, perhaps it's possible. My experience is with this one horse--which has prompted me to look at some of the training tactics in an effort to deprogram my guy--and my judgement is that a significant part of his WP training was of the worst kind, including totally flattening the horse's mental and emotional responses, in addition to fracturing his gaits. No one would argue that this kind of training has anything in common with dressage; in my mind, the objections to riding deep/rollkur are mere quibbles by comparison on the scale of potential dammage to a good horse.

OTOH, if anyone does want to genuinely compare the Vaquero/Californio tradition with good classical dressage, I'd love to listen, but I suspect we have a serious shortage of folks here who understand the tradition well enough to hold up their end of the discussion. I hope I'm wrong!

adonaifarms
May. 27, 2007, 06:41 PM
Beatiful rider and beautiful horse.... Could teach many a dressage rider many many things !!!!!

This horse is born and bred to do this work and move this way. WOW!!!!!!

Thank you for posting :)
Susan

Dalfan
May. 27, 2007, 06:48 PM
This horse is born and bred to do this work and move this way. WOW!!!!!!

Hardly. He was trained to move this way. Truly a shame what WP has morphed into.

rcloisonne
May. 27, 2007, 07:14 PM
WB (Trakenhers mostly) are some of the oldest breeds and bloodlines that have been studies for centuries. I have to say Traks are the few REAL pure breds. :D
Pah-lease. How can you call a "breed" with an open stud book, "pure bred"? :lol: Do you even know what a purebred is? REAL purebreds are the Arabian, the TB, the Andalusian, the Friesian, i.e., breeds that don't allow crosses to be registered as purebreds. As with the labradoodle, you might get a nice animal from a cross but it ain't no purebred.

Not to feed the troll too much but the horse in the first video looks lame to me. If I saw any horse moving like that in the pasture the vet would be called. Poor thing looks to be suffering from navicular syndrome. And that's considered a "world class mover"? :rolleyes:

SillyHorse
May. 27, 2007, 07:47 PM
While many warmblood studbooks are open, the Trakehner's is not.

rcloisonne
May. 27, 2007, 08:50 PM
While many warmblood studbooks are open, the Trakehner's is not.
Then why does Peron's pedigree contain horses with xx after their name?

http://americantrakehner.com/Peron/

And what about this?:

http://www.legendaryarabians.com/trakehner.htm

Trakehners2000
May. 27, 2007, 10:19 PM
If you know the Trakehner history, you would know that TB and Arabian have always been part of the breed, from the foundation, that is what keeps the breed lighter than other Warmbloods~ and adds endurance & new genetics...it always has been TB & Arabians, from the get go...do your homework, go to http://www.trakehners-international.com

Look up the history of the breed, Just as Arabians are the foundation of the TB, they are the foundation of many breeds.

STF
May. 27, 2007, 10:23 PM
And.. the Trak is a closed book to other WB inbreeding. :)


Do you even know what a purebred is?

Im pretty much a walking mental stud book. My hobby is researching and tracing bloodlines, so.............. I would say, that I do have some knowledge of what Purebred is! :lol:

rcloisonne
May. 27, 2007, 11:03 PM
[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]If you know the Trakehner history, you would know that TB and Arabian have always been part of the breed, from the foundation, that is what keeps the breed lighter than other Warmbloods~ and adds endurance & new genetics...it always has been TB & Arabians, from the get go...do your homework, go to http://www.trakehners-international.com
Yes, I am very well aware Trakehners have TB and Arab blood and more Arab blood than other WB registries. I suppose there is some merit in the fact they don't add anything from other WB registries. However, how does this mixed heritage make them purebred?

And while, yes, Arab and other oriental sires were also used for the development of the TB, the AJC & the JC do not allow any further Arab blood (the GSB closed to Arabs in the 1930's). That is a REAL closed stud book, the breed is fixed. A TB/Arab cross is not considered a purebred, even though both parents are.

But, hey, if you want to believe Traks are "purebreds" be my guest.

anjeldivyn
May. 28, 2007, 12:31 AM
I ride with trainers on both sides of the fence and it is amazing how much "style bashing" I am subject to. Any type of English based trainer I have been with, Dressage to Grand Prix, simply assumes that when I show a horse on the Quarter Horse Circuit it is a hairy, stocky, neck reining, yard horse. (My AQHA gelding is actually bigger than my TB Gelding 17.3 and 17.1 respectively and my trainer would KILL me if I EVER neck reined.) This is not a one sided bashing as almost all of the Western based trainers I have been with assume my jumping horse is a long maned, unbroke, runaway without any ground manners. He is the laziest horse in the barn and can usually be found sleeping the day away, likely snoring...

It kills me because so many things I do cross into both disciplines. The only real difference is that the horses I show on the AQHA circuit are trained to hold their own frame. They are not backed off the bit as so many assume, they are trained so that with a bit of a squeeze from the leg and slight pressure (less than a centimeter of hand movement on an 8' drape in the rein) on the bit they will collect. It can mean frame up and slow down, or frame up and reach, depends on the cue. There is more of a connection through seat and leg riding western simply because you are expected to have no contact with the mouth. My English trainers are always appalled at the "huge bits" we use with chinstraps... we never really use them. My horse will go from a stop to a clean lope off and back to a stop without me ever moving my hand. I drop my outside hip slightly back to push his hip over and lift his shoulder with my inside knee. The judge sees my horse frame up and lope off, it appears as tho my legs never move because it is so slight. I even out my hips and sit deep in my seat and my horse stops.

I will defend both sides of the fence here, trainers on both sides have valuable information to share and tricks that will work with whatever style you ride. For those of you who have not ridden western, next time you ride take a moment to release your horses face completely, ride on the buckle of your reins and see how steady and collected your horse stays though his gaits. Western pleasure is alot harder than it looks!

indyblue
May. 28, 2007, 01:56 AM
Ive had a bit to do with WP due to the fact my aunty breeds and competes QH and Appies for WP.Ive watched many competitions and can appreciate the amount of training that is put into these horses.They really are a lovely natured horse and many times Ive thought of changing disciplines.Ive got to say though that the horse in the original OPs post looks truely miserable to me.Extremely lack lustre and lame.Look at his ears.He is though accurate (sp?) and Im sure that that is what won him the title.Id like to see what second place looked like.

monstrpony
May. 28, 2007, 08:23 AM
You know, I looked at that clip again and that horse really isn't that bad; there are many, many that are much worse. That's another slow-legged horse and that kind of gait is pretty natural to them. What I do find interesting is that this is supposed to be a world championship ride, and the horse fluffed the trot-over pole. He didn't tick it or anything, but there is a shuffle at the pole. I thought that, ideally, they were supposed to hit the pole in stride. Would like to see what the rest of the rides were like. The changes, however--while not to a dressage standard--are pretty darned smooth and clean. Just a different type of change from upper level dressage; the objective is nothing more than to get onto the other lead with as little fuss and bother as possible, and to that standard, they're pretty darned nice.

tempichange
May. 28, 2007, 08:40 AM
Just a different type of change from upper level dressage; the objective is nothing more than to get onto the other lead with as little fuss and bother as possible, and to that standard, they're pretty darned nice.

I wasn't reffering to those changes as UL quality, or like UL dressage quality. If anything the OP was comparing WP to basic dressage, and asking us if we knew what "real western" riding was.

I do know what western riding is, and it isn't that.

Kairoshorses
May. 28, 2007, 09:24 AM
My husband's family are all ranchers, and I remember the first day I saw them herding and separating a large herd of cattle--the man on the horse who had to get the smaller ones to go into a particular pen literally danced. The horse was AMAZING. Light on his feet, very responsive, efficient, he was able to move just enough in the right direction (sideways, back, forward) to get the cattle to do what he wanted. It was like watching ballet--or really good dressage--it made me tear up it was that beautiful.

I remember reading that Western riders/horses have to be able to go all day, then "dance" when necessary, then go again, while dressage, stemming from calvalry charges, needed to be able to go for an extended but shorter time then quit. Otherwise, the movements are similar, though they can afford to be "under" themselves because their work day is shorter. Western riders do get through and under, but only for short periods of time.

monstrpony
May. 28, 2007, 09:43 AM
My husband's family are all ranchers, and I remember the first day I saw them herding and separating a large herd of cattle--the man on the horse who had to get the smaller ones to go into a particular pen literally danced. The horse was AMAZING. Light on his feet, very responsive, efficient, he was able to move just enough in the right direction (sideways, back, forward) to get the cattle to do what he wanted. It was like watching ballet--or really good dressage--it made me tear up it was that beautiful.

I remember reading that Western riders/horses have to be able to go all day, then "dance" when necessary, then go again, while dressage, stemming from calvalry charges, needed to be able to go for an extended but shorter time then quit. Otherwise, the movements are similar, though they can afford to be "under" themselves because their work day is shorter. Western riders do get through and under, but only for short periods of time.

I think another fundamental difference is that what you were seeing is the goal. People developing ranch horses don't emphasize the athletic development of the horse's gaits, because the work itself--long periods of getting from here to there, short periods of intense work--will do that as needed. But the suppleness, obedience, willingness, forwardness, and the control and use of all of the horse's body are qualities that good ranch horses share with dressage horses.

Trakehners2000
May. 28, 2007, 10:04 AM
I think another fundamental difference is that what you were seeing is the goal. People developing ranch horses don't emphasize the athletic development of the horse's gaits, because the work itself--long periods of getting from here to there, short periods of intense work--will do that as needed. But the suppleness, obedience, willingness, forwardness, and the control and use of all of the horse's body are qualities that good ranch horses share with dressage horses.

monstrpony, I think you have defined what is the main difference between working western horses and WP horses *and* what is the similarity between working western horses and dressage & endurance horses-----time----. Working western horses, dressage horses and endurance horse (as well as driving horses) typically stay sounder, last longer than a WP or Saddleseat horse......why???? Because they have a ton of easy miles on them before they are asked for harder work, thus their joints & ligaments have time to adapt and become stronger. Though this thread has looked like one big train wreck, discussion is good and Monstrpony, you have helped me define, for myself, what the 1 big difference is. Time. Time for the horse to develope correctly. I, myself, have never said the trainers were not talented, or that the horses were not good, or well breed or fun to ride, heck, sometimes they could be the safer hoss to ride.... My main beef with WP (not that it matters to any1 except me) is the amount of lameness in the WP horses. I personally have never seen a WP horse that was sound over the age of 10, though, like previously stated, I have seen endurance horses (which was a QH) do the Tevis cup at age 27.........and Dressage horses compete in FEI at 19.... Most WP horses I have seen are *very* lame in their early teens.....

Liz
May. 28, 2007, 10:21 AM
There is a big difference between a working cow horse and a western pleasure horse. Yes, as a dressage rider I can respect good western riding but western pleasure is not IMO good western riding.

monstrpony
May. 28, 2007, 11:24 AM
Well, you bring up another important point.

Actually, what I meant is that the development of the gaits was a difference between dressage and ranch riding (not good or bad, just different). Developing the gaits is one of the overarching goals of dressage; in ranch riding, it's a by-product of using the horse, not so much an immediate goal of the training. As such, it isn't done to the same degree. Yes, a good ranch horse should be able to move out and cover ground efficiently, but not at the cost of comfort for the rider ;), so developing scope and volume to the gaits isn't a particular value. There are few ranch horses on whom the passage has been extensively developed, and it isn't just because Quarter Horses can't passage as well as warmbloods. The other aspects, the suppleness, flexibility, and the ability to independently use all of the horse's body ARE important in both. The ranch horse will develop his athleticism simply by being used with those qualities; the dressage horse will be worked specifically to develop the gaits.

Learning to release on a good try and leave an exercise alone, to develop the horse's understanding of a correct effort, as opposed to repeating the exercise to get a better physical execution of the exercise and develop the physical ability to do it better, was a big change for me when I moved from dressage to ranch type work with my horse. It took me a while to deconstruct the learning process and understand the difference between teaching a response (release for a good try) and physically developing the horse's body with repetition of the exercise.

If you ask a ranch type horse to give it's haunches, and you get a crisp, accurate effort, you leave it alone to reward the correct effort. Then, you go off and work a cow, during which you will need the same response, and it will be there because the horse clearly understands the correct response, and using the horse to work the cow will develop it physically. With a dressage horse, the first time you ask for a shoulder-in, you probably let the horse off the hook with a good try, but later you will use the shoulder in again and again in the same context as a technique to build the horse's ability to step under behind and carry himself.

It's a subtle difference, but also a similarity, I guess.

Going back to your observation--any discipline obsessed with the futurity concept is going to condemn it's practitioners to early obsolessence, generally due to physical breakdown. I agree that WP is among the most guilty in this regard, particularly since I believe the training itself is physically distructive to the horse. Breeding horses that prefer to go in a slow manner is one thing, completely fracturing their natural gaits to manufacture the slowest one out there is criminal. But when all of the big money is concentrated in the horse's pre-adolescent years, what difference does it make to the bottom line if they're all lame by the time they're five years old? :confused: Gag.

slc2
May. 28, 2007, 12:21 PM
peron has xx after some ancestors because trakehners constantly use improvement sires. the improvement sires are in a separate book and all of the european registries have very complex and diverse ways of bringing in 'the best of the best' into their registries.

these can hardly be called 'mutts' or 'crossbreds' when this is done in such a systematic and scientific manner, and with such a clear goal.

when you're talking about 'closed books' and 'purebreds' whose origins are 'lost in the sands of time', rest assured, you're wading in pure bull****.

ALL registries for horses were created fairly recently. there is no continuity between the current organizations and any 'ancient' organizations or even any fairly old organizations, responsible for registering animals. there just isn't. they are all modern organizations.

too, breeds are 'closed' only after decades of establishing a 'type' and using crossing with various animals. all 'pure breeds' were created by crossing different earlier types and breeds. often individuals of diferent breeds are chosen to found another breed. in early america, there was such a mixture of breeds and types in early days and there was so much breeding between them that american 'breeds' are all quite related.

in fact, most researchers will tell you that mankind moved around so much and traded so much that NO breed of horse is really all that genetically distinct. the rest of it is marketing, pure and simple.

if you believe anthropologists and people who actually require evidence rather than heresay, all horse breeds are of relatively recent manufacture, including thoroughbreds, which are a crossbred of a local english horse and a very diverse group iof horses imported from arabia, north africa, and other areas a few hundred years ago. arabians cannot prove an ancient origin, not more than a couple hundred eyars; persians and caspians appear to be much older types, but it may be very difficult to actually show an unbroken line of heredity down to the current breeds, for them, or any other current breed, including the friesian and andalusians. to suggest that there were arch-necked prancers in spain thosands of years ago, and dish faced horses in arabia billions of years ago, does not make it true that one can actually trace down a distinct heredity for all current members of the modern breeds. it just doesn't, no matter how much red faced screaming takes place.

Tom King
May. 28, 2007, 12:47 PM
I respect all sorts of riding where there is real performance involved for both horse and rider, but to me Western Pleasure show classes are just..........a lame fashion show.

Dalfan
May. 28, 2007, 04:22 PM
I remember reading that Western riders/horses have to be able to go all day, then "dance" when necessary, then go again, while dressage, stemming from calvalry charges, needed to be able to go for an extended but shorter time then quit. Otherwise, the movements are similar, though they can afford to be "under" themselves because their work day is shorter. Western riders do get through and under, but only for short periods of time.

If you're talking about a truly ranched-trained horse, then yes, they are something to behold. WP bears no resemblance to that.

~Freedom~
May. 28, 2007, 04:32 PM
Show Western pleasure is the most monstrous bastardization of a good working cow pony, which given the chance, would probably buck off any of their riders who can't seem to ride a horse with more animation than paint drying.

And this is coming from a person that rode western, but in western games where a degree of agility was required.

STF
May. 28, 2007, 04:42 PM
ALL registries for horses were created fairly recently

The Swedish WB has been studies since 1661 when the State Stud was presented. Records have been kept for many many generations on this as well as established rules of what horses and cant be let into the breed books. Granted, some rules have changed over time, but its a study.

There are many horses and breeder who carry a lot of old blood and pure blood (per say), but all those TB's and Arabs you see in there in a lot of the top horses are on the sire side of the pedigree, which means that most of them were approved for breeding and tested accordingly.
What it come down to, is know your bloodlines and know what types they produce! :)

As for WP - I dont care for the way the horse travels, mostly in the lope, but...... each to their own and to how they want to spend their money. :)

Donella
May. 28, 2007, 05:06 PM
""Anyway when you guys post your world champions on here and tell me you left the sport anyway then youll have my attention"".

Well, in the arab circuit we have national championships that would be equivalent to qh worlds. The arab wp classes aim for the same thing...super slow jog and lope, head usually behind the verticle ect..even if it is "technically wrong" it is VERY common.

We have owned three national winners in western classes, two in WP and I can honestly say, I don't know what drew me to it..we just loved the breed and it was a family thing ect..but the western classes got old real fast. It really is not what I consider a nice way to train a horse. Go look in the warmup arenas at the wp horses that are winning...it's go forward, stop back up fifteen steps...go forward..the minit your horse is jogging too fast, stop , back fifteen steps and so on. In the meantime, the heads are all bent to the horses chests, usually with draw reins..way behind verticle ect. All so you can go around in a circle in a slow manner with your reins draped.

Why did I stop? Well, I didn't like the way the horses were trained but also, it really isn't the most challenging thing to teach your horse to take a fake frame ie avoid the bit and shuffle around an arena in walk trot canter. I wanted more of a challenge. You can have a national champion wp horse with a years worth of training. You need at least ten for a winning GP horse..nuff said. Dressage is a thousand times more challenging than wp..at least in my books.

Adamantane
May. 28, 2007, 05:16 PM
After a dangerous near trainwreck, this thread has pretty much recovered and become interesting, educational and mostly constructive again. Thanks.

If there are soft spots in something, the person who most likely knows best is not the committed critic but rather a consummate practitioner of whatever it may be.

rcloisonne
May. 28, 2007, 05:18 PM
peron has xx after some ancestors because trakehners constantly use improvement sires. the improvement sires are in a separate book and all of the european registries have very complex and diverse ways of bringing in 'the best of the best' into their registries.
I understand why it is done and don't disagree with the practice. Should I ever desire a WB, a Trakehner would be my first choice. I’ve seen a couple that “wowed” my socks off. However, the result of these “improvements” is not a purebred anything.


these can hardly be called 'mutts' or 'crossbreds' when this is done in such a systematic and scientific manner, and with such a clear goal.
The same could be said for crosses such a "Labradoodle", could it not? Yet none of the recognized dog registries, such as the AKC and UKC, would register or consider a Labradoodle a purebred animal and do seriously discourage the practice.


when you're talking about 'closed books' and 'purebreds' whose origins are 'lost in the sands of time', rest assured, you're wading in pure bull****.
Not really. While, yes, the TB linage only goes back a few hundred years, they haven't allowed infusion of any other breed for many, many generations, including that of their foundation sires (and lets not discount the importance of Arab mares used either).


ALL registries for horses were created fairly recently. there is no continuity between the current organizations and any 'ancient' organizations or even any fairly old organizations, responsible for registering animals. there just isn't. they are all modern organizations.
But my comments were directed at this outrageous claim:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STF
WB (Trakenhers mostly) are some of the oldest breeds and bloodlines that have been studies for centuries. I have to say Traks are the few REAL pure breds.

too, breeds are 'closed' only after decades of establishing a 'type' and using crossing with various animals. all 'pure breeds' were created by crossing different earlier types and breeds. often individuals of diferent breeds are chosen to found another breed. in early america, there was such a mixture of breeds and types in early days and there was so much breeding between them that american 'breeds' are all quite related.
Quite true and with very few exceptions, the American breeds have an open stud book. We have QH’s with 75% TB blood and Morgans with significant ASB yet are registered and thought of as “purebreds”, which they are not.


in fact, most researchers will tell you that mankind moved around so much and traded so much that NO breed of horse is really all that genetically distinct. the rest of it is marketing, pure and simple.
And yet there are many tomb paintings from ancient Egypt depicting horses remarkably similar to today’s Arabians. Note the size, shape of the body, neck set and croup here:

http://www.nilemuse.com/hierohors.html

I’ve seen others showing the large, low set in the skull eyes and dished heads as well. Keep in mind, the Bedouin keepers of this breed did not have a written language so you are correct in that there were no written stud books kept for eons. That doesn’t prove the breed was not pure. In fact, it would be highly unlikely a mixed breed would have survived relatively unchanged with (same phenotype) for thousands of years if not pure. And by the way, these desert tribes did not fancy the dished head, considered a feminine trait and sold any dished headed stallions to the Egyptians and Europeans who then incorrectly deduced it was a desired characteristic. :eek:


if you believe anthropologists and people who actually require evidence rather than heresay, all horse breeds are of relatively recent manufacture, including thoroughbreds, which are a crossbred of a local english horse and a very diverse group iof horses imported from arabia, north africa, and other areas a few hundred years ago. arabians cannot prove an ancient origin, not more than a couple hundred eyars; persians and caspians appear to be much older types, but it may be very difficult to actually show an unbroken line of heredity down to the current breeds, for them, or any other current breed, including the friesian and andalusians. to suggest that there were arch-necked prancers in spain thosands of years ago, and dish faced horses in arabia billions of years ago, does not make it true that one can actually trace down a distinct heredity for all current members of the modern breeds. it just doesn't, no matter how much red faced screaming takes place.
As previously mentioned, just because it can’t be proven doesn’t make it untrue. Take evolution and the Big Bang for example. ;) And, both the Arabian and TB can certainly trace their linage much more precisely than any other breed. Neither requires the introduction of another breed to “improve” anything. Both are the best at what they were bred to do; the TB for speed over short courses and the Arab for hardiness in harsh climes, endurance over great distances and, until the development of the TB with its intensive selection for speed, the fastest horse in the world.

J-Lu
May. 28, 2007, 06:41 PM
Lets not forget that genotype (genetic relatedness) and phenotype (outward appearance) are not the same thing. And some traits are more dominant than others.

If any breed were *strictly* purebred, it would be totally dysfunctional if it had not been outcrossed along the way. Simple genetics, people (banjo playing in background)!

They ALL were outcrossed, even arabians (don't forget environment shaped the early breed characteristics and horses who lived mated). Arabians were then exported all over the world, and infusions of local horses contributed to the breed in time hence the big differences in type. Yes, they were maintained as a breed but they had outcrossing influence. They are so diverse in type and genetics that they can maintain the breed by breeding to other "arabians".

THe jockey club used to accept other breeds, btw. American TBs are line bred for speed, but European ones were also steeplechasers and are built differently. American stock came from England, which had hefty influence from Ango-norman types.

From a genetics standpoint, I'd argue that the only purebred horses/ponies are ones who have been geographically isolated from other horses and traveling people.

Regarding warmbloods, each breed is currently named for the region it was developed in/the stud was located. The area of "hannover" is waaaaaaaaaaaay smaller than the area of "Arabia" ever was... so I'm not convinced that Hanoverians are more different than Oldenburgs, Traks or Dutch Warmbloods to any degree approaching the genetic difference between Egyptian Arabians and Polish Arabians.

My point? The term "purebred" is pretty much semantics. Horses were traditionally bred to do a job and do it well - those who could it well were bred. I don't see how the Cockapoo comment has any relevance here...
My two cents.

NoDQhere
May. 28, 2007, 06:43 PM
Well rcloisonne, it's obvious that no one is going to change your mind but you should at least do a little reading. The East Prussian (Trakehner) horse was "developed" by the Teutonic Order, beginning around 1500 AD. The Central Trakehnen Stud was founded in 1732.

The Trakehner is most certainly a breed and by most definitions a "pure" breed, but really that is not a "big deal", regardless. The standards for selecting breeding stock are incredibly tough and very few TBs and Arabians (also Anglo-Arab and Shagyas were used) could make the grade.

So yes, TBs and Arabs have closed "books" so are Purebreds. But no standards other than "fashion" in the case of the Arab and "speed" in the case of the TB need to be met.

Adamantane
May. 28, 2007, 06:54 PM
just because it can’t be proven doesn’t make it untrue. Take evolution and the Big Bang for example. ;)


I happen to ride a 'purebred' Arab with a noteworthy pedigree. Yawn. Part of this contention is a matter of what our definition for 'purebred' is. It could be most useful to share a common definition, but whatever the definition may be, it changes nothing about the nature of the horses that exist and are thought of as members of various breeds. Is that purebred definition truly so important a point? The consequences are not as if we were examining rival claims for the royal succession in, say, 16th century England.

Anyway, actually 'evolution' as a biological mechanism has been demonstrated time and time again. It is as much an established fact as the rising of the sun in the east every day. That question hasn't been in debate for decades. Even the RCC stipulates that evolution is the way the world works, "God's chosen path" if you wish to go with their take on it. The only significant question regarding evolution that seems ever to be in discussion here and there is whether that mechanism wholly accounts for the presence of human beings on earth. Richard Dawkins' last book deals with that whole issue and more but going there actually [I]would be getting pretty far off topic.

egontoast
May. 29, 2007, 05:26 AM
And yet there are many tomb paintings from ancient Egypt depicting horses remarkably similar to today’s Arabians. Note the size, shape of the body, neck set and croup here:

http://www.nilemuse.com/hierohors.html


OH please!:confused:

Anyone with eyes can see that these are Gypsy Vanners.

slc2
May. 29, 2007, 08:09 AM
The existence of cave paintings or egyptian paintings or any kind of art, does not prove a distinct genetic line, only that some horses had dished faces.

It is a very big mistake to assume that because some trait existed in the past, that there's an isolated, distinct genetic line from it down to today.

People have tried to do this with many breeds; it works with horse people, who don't understand how to research a genetic line. It works with people who want to sell horses, who want to make their origin seem more romantic, and hence, more marketable.

In fact, according to most researchers who aren't 'horse people', and who use scientific method rather than the desire to sell their livestock with a more romantic and lengthy history (the longer the history of something, the more one can charge when selling it), again, all our current horse breeds are relatively modern.

Even to the middle ages, say, 400-600 years ago, horses were extremely rare in arabia, and for the researcher, as a whole, 'poorly attested', which means there is very little evidence of an ancient breed.

Writers like Deb Bennet who wrote of 'proto warmbloods' and 'proto arabians' are not at all greeted by the research community with glad cries and open arms. These theories are far more likely to be hooted out of Academia than accepted. Frankly I was shocked when I was greeted with derision by some researchers from Bowling Green when I recounted 'Deb's' emphatic this-is-the-way-it-was statements from her articles in 'Conquistador' and other magazines. These theories are presented unchallenged in the horse world and greeted with delight - not so where the rubber hits the road.

The same for Lady Wentworth's 'extensive research' on the Arabian. She was a lovely character and adored her horses and is a personality in the horse world that will never be forgotten...but she wasn't capable of doing sound research.

WHY? Because these statements are based on 'evidence' that just does not stand up to the rigors of a careful review.

It is no longer possible to prove something originated from something merely because they have one or two traits in common. That does NOTHING to prove anything.

And ah...as far as Egypt, you will get an argument from many researchers that those were even horses in the first place, :winkgrin:

Yes, that's right. You will get an argument about them even BEING horses.

WHY any breed has to have some ridiculous made-up history to make it be of value is totally beyond me. Why can't a horse breed be valuable just because of what it is right now? Why can't an Arabian horse be admired just as it is? Why can't a Thoroughbred be admired for the pinnacle of a specialty that it is? And warmbloods? Why do we have to constantly argue about which breed is the best or most ancient and who is the wiser for choosing breed A rather than B? What an incredible waste of time.

Trakehners2000
May. 29, 2007, 09:57 AM
WHY any breed has to have some ridiculous made-up history to make it be of value is totally beyond me. Why can't a horse breed be valuable just because of what it is right now? Why can't an Arabian horse be admired just as it is? Why can't a Thoroughbred be admired for the pinnacle of a specialty that it is? And warmbloods? Why do we have to constantly argue about which breed is the best or most ancient and who is the wiser for choosing breed A rather than B? What an incredible waste of time.

SLC, I agree. Why can't a horse be valued for just who it is. I like a pedigreed horse only because when I was a young girl, I would look dreamily into my pony's eyes and wonder the parentage.
Now, because I have pedigrees, online records,even pictures, my dream has come true..It is interesting, though doesn't make me love them any more. Actually, we own an interesting horse that we bred, would make those that are 'into' purebreds have a heart attack. His sire is an American Saddlebred and his dam is a Belgian draft mare. We bred him far before we realized we were not the first to think of this mix: Georgian Grande. He is a neat horse, and just because someone didn't establish this mix 800 years ago, doesn't mean he isn't just one of the neatest horses to ride. He is 17.3 hh, extremely gentle ( a good husband horse) and has extremely smooth gaits, and on top of that he is an easy keeper!!!! Stays looking great on less than anyother horse we own!!!!! All that and a rocking horse canter??? I don't really care if he is considered a purebred, he is a great horse!!!


BY THE WAY....all interested in what XX and OX mean???? XX in a pedigree indicates that horse is a TB and OX indicates that horse is an Arabian.






I truely don't care about the purebred thing, it always makes me wonder why people expect more from a horse than they do from themselves.

Wellspotted
May. 29, 2007, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by SM:
so far this thread is proving that the answer is NO to the OP question: "Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? "

You've got that right!
And apparently a lot of these posters are quite young, too. In my younger years WP horses actually moved like horses. They walked, jogged, loped, they didn't four-beat everything nor did they roll peanuts right round the arena.
My retired eventer (now dressage horse) used to do WP, long enough ago that he does have a lovely free head carriage at walk on the buckle, and a great jog, but he doesn't roll peanuts!

Trakheners2000--
I really really really like what you posted.:)

gr8fulrider
May. 29, 2007, 02:33 PM
Looks like Reagan mostly rode English at home on his ranch: http://www.wiwfarm.com/reagan.html

Shouldn't the man who controlled the largest military arsenal ever assembled be required to wear protective headgear? :D

Kelly G
May. 29, 2007, 03:04 PM
I've been resisting the urge to peek at this thread till now, but this morning I think I'm just feeling a bit more straight to the point than usual [lack of sleep, maybe], so 'cos I can't come up with another way to say this, I guess I'll just out with it.....NOMIOMI1, while I really do think it's a shame that so many people feel the need to take sides on subjects like different breeds, sports, and trainers, rather than just accepting that there's good and bad in everything, and that there's something we can learn from most things, I also think it's not too surprising just the same that some dressage folks get a bit up in arms at comparisons between things like dressage and western riding [or even dressage and hunting, showing, etc...?]. Because, like it or lump it, while there's obviously a helluva lot to be said for a lovely comfortable riding horse who can be ridden on the buckle in all or most circumstances, etc, and who can handle the various tasks required for different aspects of western riding, comparing the training of these horses in any way to the training of serious dressage horses is [I'm sorry, but] like comparing the training of a professional house painter with Michelangelo! Each of the two obviously requires plenty of skill all right, but while the end aim of the house painter is practical, to get the job done efficiently and effectively, Michelangelo is after perfection......and that's what dressage at it's core is based on, that quest for perfection, for the highest possible quality in each and every movement, and near enough isn't good enough [or isn't supposed be, anyway]. So, unfortunately, whenever someone goes expecting much of a positive reaction about things like western riding from the dressage fraternity, they may as well throw on the ol' flame suit in preparation, 'cos chances are they're gonna need it for [some of] the responses they'll get. Personally, I think a bit of both would be nice, a lovely, laid back riding horse who could go out on a quiet hack and be ridden at the buckle, and then come home and complete a gorgeous dressage test.....a girl can always hope, anyway :).
Kelly.:)

slc2
May. 29, 2007, 03:31 PM
there have been peanut rollers since there has been western pleasure. they are always announcing it's going to change and it never does. there's been an 'announcement' of that type every 3 years for the last 30 or so years...LOL. if cowboys rode like that, there would be petrified horses and riders scattered all over the range.

Huntertwo
May. 29, 2007, 04:05 PM
Thanks for posting. That was absolutely spectacular... How they can do that with no contact is amazing.

I'll take that anyday over a cranked in head/neck.... lol

Huntertwo
May. 29, 2007, 04:12 PM
I think the hardest part of any western riding is that darn saddle! :eek:

Its lifting it that is the hard part...lol :)

Wellspotted
May. 29, 2007, 04:15 PM
while there's obviously a helluva lot to be said for a lovely comfortable riding horse who can be ridden on the buckle in all or most circumstances, etc, and who can handle the various tasks required for different aspects of western riding, comparing the training of these horses in any way to the training of serious dressage horses is [I'm sorry, but] like comparing the training of a professional house painter with Michelangelo! Each obviously requires plenty of skill all right, but while the end aim of the house painter is to get the job done efficiently and effectively, Michelangelo is after perfection......

"...a lovely comfortable riding horse who can be ridden on the buckle in all or most circumstances" and "who can handle the various tasks" [emphasis mine] is my idea of perfection any day! I'd far rather have a lovely comfortable ride than a "serious" one ... seriously! :D

And nope, no peanut rollers in WP when I was younger, where I was then. :)

Equibrit
May. 29, 2007, 04:57 PM
"Do dressagies even know what western is anymore?"

1.) What is a "dressagie"?
2.) Why would one of these even care about "western"?

Sandy M
May. 29, 2007, 05:26 PM
And nope, no peanut rollers in WP when I was younger, where I was then. :)[/QUOTE]

Yup. When I rode western, in California, in the Dark Ages, the style was "Californio" style, half-breed bit, braided reins and romel, neck arched, head on the vertical, and a slight loop in the rein. I was truly startled the first time I went to a breed show with my eventer and saw the peanut rollers. Was relieved I was just showing in over fences classes, 'cuase the HUS horses looked just like the WP horses, just wore different tack. LOL

Kelly G
May. 29, 2007, 09:12 PM
Wellspotted said: "...a lovely comfortable riding horse who can be ridden on the buckle in all or most circumstances" and "who can handle the various tasks" [emphasis mine] is my idea of perfection any day! I'd far rather have a lovely comfortable ride than a "serious" one ... seriously!


That's totally fair enough. I'm not saying one's better than the other at all [I love both, personally [a relaxed, comfortable ride and a lovely dressage horse]], I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit about where they differ, that's all. And, can anyone possibly fill an ignorant Australian in on what a peanut roller is???

Kelly.:)

catmchorse
May. 29, 2007, 11:00 PM
And, can anyone possibly fill an ignorant Australian in on what a peanut roller is???


It's referring to a method of going where the horse has its head wayyyyy down low...like it's pushing peanuts along the ground with its nose. Hence, peanut roller :winkgrin: Not usually a particularly flattering phrase.

Wellspotted
May. 30, 2007, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Equibrit:
"Do dressagies even know what western is anymore?"
1.) What is a "dressagie"?
2.) Why would one of these even care about "western"?


Originally posted by MOMIOMI1 (OP):
Just thought I should post to try to broaden some of those horizons.

Evidently a dressagie is a dressage rider/fan. I like the term, MOMIOMI1!


ALL registries for horses were created fairly recently

Errr . . . nope. :)

Kelly G
May. 30, 2007, 04:29 AM
catmchorse, thanks for that, I don't think I've ever heard the term before.
Kelly.:)

Huntertwo
May. 30, 2007, 10:08 AM
Hardly. He was trained to move this way. Truly a shame what WP has morphed into.


Actually breeding HAS a lot to do with it. You must breed for the correct temperament and especially the correct conformation. Good responsible breeders will always pick the best mare and the best stallion that compliment each others conformation.

I had an Impressive bred Q.H. - His neck tied in so nicely with his withers that even in the pasture, he carried himself in a nice frame.

hpelham1
May. 30, 2007, 08:09 PM
Aesthetic differences aside, I think your original question has been answered. I am a dressage trainer, but I also do some western training on the side. The college I went to for my equine degree had a huge western department, and looking at the video, I can tell you that it is a pretty nice wp ride. However, this is also a non-pro ride, and that makes a difference. I don't personally like the look of western pleasure, though I have trained and ridden it, but I think you can tell from the posts that the majority of dressage riders don't know much about western, and shouldn't critique something they have no knowledge of. I will agree though, that the horse looks lame in left front shoulder. :)

Red Barn
May. 31, 2007, 01:10 PM
Well, thank heaven somebody finally brought up aesthetics!

It seems to me that any equine sport will become more and more stylized as it loses its functional dimension. No big surprise: the modern world no longer requires the horse for transportation, work or battle, so this is bound to happen. If a style of riding becomes unnatural or inefficient or even bizarre, so what? It’s no longer a matter of life and death.

Does anybody really think WP horses are trained to do real work of any kind? Are they supposed to? It looks like they’re bred and trained for competition based on aesthetic preference, and little else.

And, to be fair, there are plenty of dressage horses who are fairly useless outside an arena. The original purpose of educated riding and training – to make the horse perfectly balanced, responsive and maneuverable IRL – is often superceded by the requirements of modern competition, and nobody thinks this is in any way odd.

Show “hunters” are increasingly unsuited to work in the field, and nobody thinks this is weird, either.

In the absence if necessity, exaggeration based on aesthetic preference is pretty much inevitable, and although WP is maybe the most striking example of this, you can easily see it in dressage and “hunters” as well:

* If a comfy jog is good, a catatonic shuffle is even better.
* If big, floaty gaits are good, clownishly large ones are better still.
* If a calm, sensible hunter is good, a tank on Prozac is best of all.

I think we choose a discipline based on the metaphorical implications of the “look” we prefer. I don’t think utility has much to do with it at all.

I myself love dressage because of its poetic qualities. Its ideal seems (to me!) to be a horse that expresses pride, strength and the joy of movement. I dislike WP because its equine ideal seems (to me!) to express slavishness, restriction and a lack of independence. I'm perfectly prepared to admit that this is a purely subjective view, though it is very dear to my heart.

What the horses themselves feel about the realities of all this is anybody’s guess.

Equibrit
May. 31, 2007, 01:51 PM
I'm almost positive that they would raise grazing to a competitive art form.

Red Barn
May. 31, 2007, 02:29 PM
I'm almost positive that they would raise grazing to a competitive art form.

Ayup. I bet they would.

And I'd be fine with that - you should see my fat pony's Chomp Extensions - astounding! They make Matine look like chopped liver.

Equibrit
May. 31, 2007, 02:35 PM
Long and low would be a definite attribute.
Bite tempies.

cookie-monster
May. 31, 2007, 02:47 PM
"Well, thank heaven somebody finally brought up aesthetics!

It seems to me that any equine sport will become more and more stylized as it loses its functional dimension. No big surprise: the modern world no longer requires the horse for transportation, work or battle, so this is bound to happen. If a style of riding becomes unnatural or inefficient or even bizarre, so what? It’s no longer a matter of life and death.

Does anybody really think WP horses are trained to do real work of any kind? Are they supposed to? It looks like they’re bred and trained for competition based on aesthetic preference, and little else.

And, to be fair, there are plenty of dressage horses who are fairly useless outside an arena. The original purpose of educated riding and training – to make the horse perfectly balanced, responsive and maneuverable IRL – is often superceded by the requirements of modern competition, and nobody thinks this is in any way odd.

Show “hunters” are increasingly unsuited to work in the field, and nobody thinks this is weird, either.

In the absence if necessity, exaggeration based on aesthetic preference is pretty much inevitable, and although WP is maybe the most striking example of this, you can easily see it in dressage and “hunters” as well:

* If a comfy jog is good, a catatonic shuffle is even better.
* If big, floaty gaits are good, clownishly large ones are better still.
* If a calm, sensible hunter is good, a tank on Prozac is best of all.

I think we choose a discipline based on the metaphorical implications of the “look” we prefer. I don’t think utility has much to do with it at all.

I myself love dressage because of its poetic qualities. Its ideal seems (to me!) to be a horse that expresses pride, strength and the joy of movement. I dislike WP because its equine ideal seems (to me!) to express slavishness, restriction and a lack of independence. I'm perfectly prepared to admit that this is a purely subjective view, though it is very dear to my heart.

What the horses themselves feel about the realities of all this is anybody’s guess."


Red Barn, thank you, thank you, thank you!! Your post is well written, makes sense and (to me!), is difficult to argue! Awesome!