ground driving!

[slc2]

my new pony is now ground driving! he should be world champion in no time :)

seriously, he has a very, very light mouth and is very eager and forward. he ground drives on a very light touch and learns things very quickly. the only trouble i had was when i tried to start out with a handler at his head which seemed to upset him. i'm glad i worked on longeing and am extra glad i'm following the steps outlined here for a beginning driver. i can work him on a circle with the lines over his back or walk behind him.

[egontoast]

HurrAY! perhaps the former owners were not so terrible after all. Maybe you owe them an apology.

Contrary to what you thought, he is not 'crippled ' and it appears he has also had some correct handling. That's very good news. Perhaps someone even trained him to drive.

[slc2]

can't quite just enjoy it, can you, :lol:

well i can. i'm lovin' it every step of the way, and i think driving can only make me a better rider.

i now think i am starting to understand why some friends have enjoyed driving so much. i have driven some, but not schooled my own before.

the thing i like best about it is that it really is a very quick mirror of what the driver is doing, and you can see very clearly what the effect of what you do is - couldn't be clearer - i'm staring right at it!

no, he was never trained to drive. he never had a bridle on him, never had a blanket on him, and he was never longed, not used to bathing, and was never more than halter broke - that's what we were told and his behavior makes it very clear that was true. he was as wild as a march hare. he's had to be shown things and gentled just like an unhandled horse.

[egontoast]

That's great. When I was quite young (7 or 8?) I used to drive a pony in a sulky. It was my friend's pony and we travelled the roads in a small village and went in parades. It was my first 'horse experience' and I have never forgotten it.

When I can no longer ride I hope to be driving again.

[Ashemont]

When I can no longer ride I hope to be driving again.

That's about what I said "When I can't ride my horses anymore I'll drive them" but no one ever told me that it was SO much FUN!! :D Although I still occasionally ride I find my preference is now to drive. So I often lend my riding horses to friends and then tag along on the trail ride driving my pony to my Batmobile :winkgrin:

[egontoast]

Hehe, yes I knew someone would pick me up on that. I am 'saving' driving because I'm having enough fun now doing other things.:)

[Thomas_1]

Why are you putting the reins over his back when you work him in a circle?? What equipment do you have him in? Have you had long reining lessons?

[slc2]

i have a surcingle, thomas. if i longe with one line i don't use the surcingle. i use it when longeing with two lines or ground driving. if i am longeing him on a circle with two lines (variously called 'longeing with two lines', 'ground driving' and 'double longeing' by various people), i stop and i put the reins over his back when i change him from going clockwise to counterclockwise. this is alot for him as 2 months ago no one could walk behind him or touch his hindquarters. when ground driving him - what they call ground driving around here, i am directly behind him. he turns left and right, goes on the rail, does circles and stops and starts up.

[Thomas_1]

you might find he goes better if you long rein correctly

[slc2]

he couldn't go any better if he tried. he's working very well. i had already longed him with a single longe line for 2 months, so it was just a matter of the new setup and position of the longeur, he already has learned walk trot canter commands, turning, stopping so this wasn't too hard for him. when longeing with the two lines on a circle, he has done very well. walking behind he does very well too. and i had already spent a lot of time walking around behind him, putting my arm over his back, etc. he's adjusted very well.

the equipment is how a local driving trainer told me to do it. if you know of a better way, please do share. a friend of mine has worked with bo jena on various ground schooling techniques and thinks i can go to one of those clinics.

[Ginger]

SLC, you might consider putting the outside line behind his butt. If he's going to be a driving pony, then he has to get used to it. Sooner the better, in my opinion. Then when you change direction, you turn him outside the circle on a long smooth diagonal, walking behind him, and just change rein, adjusting your long lines (taking up slack from the outside, picking up on the inside). It's very smooth and quiet when done correctly. The outside line provides an automatic half-halt when he trots, so he learns to balance on the circle without trying to dive in on you.

I do long-line with the reins up through the top surcincle rings (if that's what you're doing), but only with an experienced driving pony. It gives a much more subtle connection with the bit, but you don't have the outside supporting line to prevent turn-ins.

Happy driving, and take your time.

[Thomas_1]

You should put the outside line so it runs round the back of him.

Whether its a riding horse or a driving horse.

[Equibrit]

toMAYto toMAAto

[slc2]

not exactly, equibrit. the idea behind doing that is getting the horse prepared for driving. it really isn't optional...not according to what little i've learned so far.

the local instructor told me to take having the line around the back of him in stages, since he's so unhandled. she said absolutely do not put the line around his hind quarters right now. i asked her about that. she says we have to make a few special adjustments for the little guy due to his past, and give him time. don't worry, the line will be around his back end..probably in a couple weeks or so. but we have to make a few allowances for a pony that 2 months ago, was cowering in the back of his stall when anyone walked in. i'm ok with that, and i realize it can't be put off forever. i don't intend to. attack all you want, thomas, you haven't seen this pony; i feel i know this pony well enough to give him this allowance for a little while. i'm thrilled he's doing as much as he is! we also went for a hike and went up and down some cross country obstacles! he's doing very well. i find him super balanced and light mouthed.

[Ginger]

Sounds like you are on the right track, SLC. Listen to and work with your instructor. If you can, you might consider coming on down to Gayla for a weekend of lessons with Jose Hernandez. He can teach both of you alot in a short time. He's really good with the long-lines.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Heh heh heh I just worked the Gayla CDE! I love that place! 650 acres of heaven, let me tell you...

[Cartfall]

Double lunging or long lining is not ground driving.

[DJ]

Just curious, what is the difference?

[Thomas_1]

the local instructor told me to take having the line around the back of him in stages, since he's so unhandled. she said absolutely do not put the line around his hind quarters right now. i asked her about that. she says we have to make a few special adjustments for the little guy due to his past, and give him time. don't worry, the line will be around his back end..probably in a couple weeks or so. but we have to make a few allowances for a pony that 2 months ago, was cowering in the back of his stall when anyone walked in. i'm ok with that, and i realize it can't be put off forever. i don't intend to. attack all you want, thomas, you haven't seen this pony; i feel i know this pony well enough to give him this allowance for a little while. i'm thrilled he's doing as much as he is! we also went for a hike and went up and down some cross country obstacles! he's doing very well. i find him super balanced and light mouthed. Trust me that was not an attack. It was actually advice for a beginner. But heck you do what you want - just ignore me.

I stupidly presumed that you were posting about what you were doing as you wanted to know from those who had experience and had a clue.

I hadn't appreciated that when you post to tell us how you're doing stuff incorrectly, even though you think its following advice to a beginner, that we were supposed to just sit back in wonder and awe at your alternative knowledge and understanding.

Apologies for my being so foolish

[DJ]

:lol:

[Ginger]

Lighten up, Thomas. We're all beginners at some point in something. I hope you have a wonderful drive today. :)

Hitch, I saw you, I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to say hello. You were with JJ, weren't you?

[slc2]

you aren't being foolish, just arrogant and snotty :D .

i love to hear what everyone's advice is and have learned alot here! as always there may be reasons for little adjustments, and i may - god forbid, not always follow your advice slavishly, thomas. but advice is always useful,and always accepted gratefully.

[Coup De Des]

Got pictures SLC2? Would love to see them.

[Cartfall]

Just curious, what is the difference?

Well, DJ, as I am still learning to long line correctly, I am still trying to come to terms with the difference. It is as different from ground driving as dressage is from plodding down the trail. Long lining is a training that many dressage trainers use. I usd ground driving on roads and trails to give my young horse experience before he was old enough to drive or ride. There really was not much other than me walking behind him and driving him forward down the road.

Long lining is something I have messed with inconjunction with ground driving but never knew it. I have in the past year had to improve the dressage on my Arabian for CDEs. I started longlineing and got some help from a local dressage trainer. The more I practiced, the more I began to understand how it worked with the dressage.

Hope this helps. I am still learning and the more I learn the more I begin to see how much I still have to learn.

[~Freedom~]

my new pony is now ground driving! he should be world champion in no time :)

i can work him on a circle with the lines over his back or walk behind him.

the local instructor told me to take having the line around the back of him in stages, since he's so unhandled. she said absolutely do not put the line around his hind quarters right now. i asked her about that.


Since you got this far I am assuming it is because of all the good books you have read about ground training that is useful for ALL aspects of equestrian training. You did say you went to grand prix dressage? They usually tell you to NOT rush. To say a horse is going to be a world champion in no time looks to me like you have the cart before the horse...errr pony.

I would re-read those books slc as you may have missed something.

[Coup De Des]

Freedom, in story books the heroine always rescues the naggy, emaciated, neglected horse and has him from whoa to show in 3 months, despite the fact that she's never showed a horse before and must overcome many obstacles along the way such as the evil previous owner trying to reclaim horse, the horse getting sick, the horse being stolen, trouble with the family, stumbling across a jolly good old fashioned mystery with George, Anne, Timmy the dog and those boys...

Didn't you know that?

Sheesh.

[Auventera Two]

Freedom - slc made a joke, she wasn't serious.

SLC - I think you're doing a great job! Anyone who can make that much progress in two months, is obviously doing something right. :)

I started my Arab with the outside line over the back also, and not behind the hindquarter. The horse has to build confidence first. You can't just jump in behind them with a line on each side and say - away we go. Well, maybe on some horses you can get away with it, but it is a dangerous position to be in, should the horse have a problem with it. I've trained all our horses to ground drive, and I started every one of them with the outside line over the back first, and transitioned to the lines running behind the hindquarters later on.

[War Admiral]

I too am aware that SLC was joking.

However, as to the lines over the back - don't forget, Thomas, that over here we have this type of driving horse (http://www.newlineza.com/valleyviewsupremefineharnessweb.jpg), which is NEVEREVER trained with the long lines around its quarters. The required frame precludes it and the light bikes/viceroys don't require breeching (they are stopped with tug stops).

To me, it really depends on what frame you are wanting the horse to go in and what *exact* purpose you are trying to achieve. I might adjust mine from ring to ring in any particular schooling session, depending on level and type of horse experience and what, precisely, I'm looking to teach (or correct).

Probably worth noting that my one experiment with Penny The Project Mare was done in the fashion SLC is describing, with lines over back, for somewhat similar reasons.

If there's a driving trainer on-site who has seen the pony, watched it work, and has recommended this approach, I'd keep on doin' what yer doin', SLC. ;)

[slc2]

yes, i was joking. no one gets to be world champion that easily in any sport. i've spent years getting beat up in the dressage bb for saying it is not that easy to move up in dressage.

i simply love my pony and am glad we have him. i've been looking at a great big old warmblood face for years and no one prepared me for how completely CUTE a good welsh pony is.

no matter what happens, i'm glad he's with us and has a clean stall and good feed and trimmed feet. i love seeing him simply be able to look out the stall door and have the sun on his face, or eat grass or have a good roll in the sand. it will be as much as two YEARS before his feet are entirely balanced and his muscles develop. we have plenty of time.

have i read about driving? not as much as i'd like to. anyone who wants to recommend some really good books is welcome to.

at the same time, i know from dressage, that while bulletin board debates may demand the author to provide 'sources' and be able to debate cleverly to win bb popularity contests (people who don't quote sources argue they have 'practical experience' and chide those who quote books; those who quote books call those who don't 'uneducated', but it's very common in the TOB-style dressage debates to hear book quotes demanded or be roundly dissed), books aren't everything. there's no substitute for simply getting lessons from a good driving trainer. i think of books as a companion to learning any riding sport...but not the whole deal.

yep, previous poster, however, i have to be very careful about who i pick to listen to locally. i focus on people who are doing the same kind of driving i'm interested in and for whom i can see happy, good going lower level horses, as well as some upper level successes...i think that indicates a trainer who grasps the whole picture, even if i may never drive at that level. this has been the source of many debates on the dressage bb, suffice to say, i am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else.

as far as the long lines behind the butt - of course. it's very true that it indispensable. and i'll do it in due time.

of all types of driving, i prefer how the combined driving horses look. they look natural and not in an exaggerated posture.

[Thomas_1]

I started my Arab with the outside line over the back also, and not behind the hindquarter. And what sort of driving does this arab do?

The horse has to build confidence first. You can't just jump in behind them with a line on each side and say - away we go.
What is your training experience? How did you learn to long rein?

I've trained all our horses to ground drive, and I started every one of them with the outside line over the back first, and transitioned to the lines running behind the hindquarters later on. Have you ever tried longreining how you should from the outset?

[hundredacres]

I mean no disrespect to anyone posting... I've seen the technique (2 lines over the back) in at least 2 books. One of them I am looking at right now...it is in 101 Longeing & Long Lining Exercises...page 88. It is used for part of the the Shallow Serpentine exercise - one must walk off to the side to make the shalllow bend.

What is so horrible about it?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Oh, I get it. It was a joke. Ha. Ha. Ha. I suppose this is another example of joking?

you aren't being foolish, just arrogant and snotty :D

Somehow the smiley face doesn't quite cancel out the arrogant and snotty adjectives. Sorry.

My limited experience in long lining and ground driving has meant outside rein behind the quarters. Just so you know which camp I'm in. If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Isn't there a big difference between long-lining and ground driving?

Thomas! Please explain? Thank you.

[slc2]

this is a 8 or 10 year old pony that was never trained to do anything. it was abused and neglected. it spent the last 2 years locked in a barn standing on manure and being neglected. it had necrotic sores in its mouth and could barely stand. before that, at another barn, it ran loose in a cow pasture and was occasionally tied up. it came to us a basket case. it didn't know how to do anything. it was petrified. of COURSE there are things missing. and this IS kindergarten, which is why the lines aren't around his backside just yet. he's learning very fast and doing very well. to all of you who provided guidance, thanks.

[Auventera Two]

If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

I never said it "freaks the horse out." But it can cause confusion when the horse doesn't understand what you want. Horses are often taught to yield to pressure and when he feels even pressure on both reins with a human standing behind him, he might back up suddenly or spin around because he just doesn't know "what" the correct answer is. It doesn't have anything to do with feeling a line across his butt.

I have always started horses in a surcingle with the outside line through the highest ring, and brought over the back. This is how Saddlebreds are sometimes worked in hand. You can then "double longe" to accustom the horse to the feel of contact on both bit rings. As the horse gains confidence in his ability to move forward with the contact on both bit rings, you can move your body position reward, and take the outside rein reward also.

Also remember that the higher bitting position offers a less severe bit action. The lower the reins are, the more severe the action. So when you're just starting out, it's kind to the horse to set the lines up high, and run the off rein over the back to keep the bit pressure minimal. (same thing with side reins.)

In the beginning, the horse is learning to move left or right depending on which rein you apply pressure to. This is much easier to do, and much less confusing for the horse if your reins are shorter, e.g., you are on the near side of the horse with the off rein drawn over the back because you have a steadier and more consistent contact.

Usually within a few sessions, I have the horse ground driving, but I do start it as double longing, if that's what you want to call it. I start working the horse in hand before I ever put side reins on. If a horse is already accustomed to bit contact through working in side reins, it is probably easier to get right behind him with a rein on each side. But to me, that's going about things backwards.

[Auventera Two]

My limited experience in long lining and ground driving has meant outside rein behind the quarters. Just so you know which camp I'm in. If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!! These are the very basics, before working bitted up in side reins, before riding, before pulling a cart, before pretty much anything excepting grooming, tying, and standing for the farrier.

And good job so far with your pony slc. I've had Libbey about the same amount of time (16 yr old POA, unbroken, pretty much unhandled), and we're just getting the leading down pat. Sheesh. She's a big ox that would rather bull up her chest and run you down than yield to pressure. She's 14 hands of brute force and though a sweetheart, just has no clue about how to act with any type of finesse whatsoever. She is most definitely a slower learner than your guy.

[RidesAHaflinger]

Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!!

I saw some fellas at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna who might be surprised to hear that. :D:lol::winkgrin::eek:

[hitchinmygetalong]

AT, no one in their right mind would wrap a line around the hindquarters without desensitizing the horse to having all kinds of stuff hanging off him and bouncing against his legs first. THAT is what I was referring to as "kindergarten".

[Auventera Two]

I saw some fellas at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna who might be surprised to hear that. :D:lol::winkgrin::eek:

Schooling the horse in hand through all the Grand Prix movements, including aires, is NOT the same thing as teaching a youngster about bit pressure and steering through the use of long lining or ground driving. ;) The level to which the SRS schools movements in hands is far above what most of us will ever do with our horses in hand. And long lining and ground driving are in fact very basic things to teach a youngster.

What about the pillars? SRS horses are worked in the pillars, which are essentially cross ties. I consider cross tying to be pretty darned basic stuff. So I guess you would also try to say that cross tying is some high school advanced level movement since the SRS stallions work between the pillars? *snort*

[Thomas_1]

I mean no disrespect to anyone posting... I've seen the technique (2 lines over the back) in at least 2 books. One of them I am looking at right now...it is in 101 Longeing & Long Lining Exercises...page 88. It is used for part of the the Shallow Serpentine exercise - one must walk off to the side to make the shalllow bend.

What is so horrible about it? Its called short hand rein and also sometimes known as short lining and is a technique employed in classical horse training and which I also utilise.

But its not ground driving and its not long reining!

[Thomas_1]

Isn't there a big difference between long-lining and ground driving?

Thomas! Please explain? Thank you. Yes there is indeed and I'm sure that SLC2 or Auventura will enlighten us! :lol::winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!! You don't half talk some twaddle!

You might also be interested to know that the Spanishce Hofreitschule don't agree with you. But heck! What would they know!?!
These are the very basics, before working bitted up in side reins, before riding, before pulling a cart, before pretty much anything excepting grooming, tying, and standing for the farrier. I find it utterly incredible that you have seen fit to come to the driving threads to lecture experience carriage drivers how to long rein and train a horse to stand. You know jack sh** about training or driving. There's people on these threads that have socks older than you!
"In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience" - Oscar Wilde

Schooling the horse in hand through all the Grand Prix movements, including aires, is NOT the same thing as teaching a youngster about bit pressure and steering through the use of long lining or ground driving. You never answered my questions earlier but please add: What experience do you have training baroque horses? What airs above ground have you taught and precisely how did you do them?

The level to which the SRS schools movements in hands is far above what most of us will ever do with our horses in hand. When did you go to Vienna?

And long lining and ground driving are in fact very basic things to teach a youngster. And how comes if you know it all you hadn't appreciated that long reining is actually advanced training for a horse.

Whilst you may well piddle about with both reins slapped over the back of your horse, carriage drivers do advanced work training the horse for the likes of driven dressage and trust me, you don't do that how you think you do in your dreams!

What about the pillars? SRS horses are worked in the pillars, which are essentially cross ties. I consider cross tying to be pretty darned basic stuff. You'll be telling us next that just like the Spanish Riding School your horses do passage and levade in whilst cross tied. Well after all it is pretty darned basic stuff isn't it duhhh!

So I guess you would also try to say that cross tying is some high school advanced level movement since the SRS stallions work between the pillars? *snort* "Sometimes its best to say nothing and let people think you're stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[RidesAHaflinger]

There are photos of me long-lining and ground-driving one of my youngsters as a long yearling 3 years ago at http://community.webshots.com/user/karenharper1 Click on the album called "Mickey." You will see that the lines are low on his sides. This is how I was taught to begin a youngster in the long lines. You will see that there is a generally unbroken line from my hands to his mouth and that the young horse is moving quietly and accepting contact. I was taught that lines up through the rein terrets doesn't happen until later in the horse's training and in fact increases the leverage you have on his mouth. There is a further advantage to having the lines low along his sides and this is that it makes it much more difficult for the inexperienced horse to turn and face you and get himself entangled in the lines. I also made sure that the horse would accept the line running behind his haunches before I ever took a step with him away from the hitching rail. Some folks call this "sacking out". Some might call it "kindergarten"- whatever it is, the horse should accept lines being draped all over his body before you ever attempt to drive him in the lines. To do otherwise is to invite a panicky, potentially disastrous reaction from the young horse the first time he feels the line touching his leg, flank, etc. My horses also were accustomed to a crupper before they ever left the hitch rail since they were destined to become carriage ponies. You can see in the photo called "long-lining," which was taken during this horse's first lesson in the lines, that he is quite accepting of the line running above his hocks. Lines through the terrets and over the horse's back to your hands is, again, a more leveraged position and comes later in the horse's training. But that's just the way I learned it and I'm certainly no expert. I do have a pretty good library of long-lining and in-hand training books that I rely on in between sessions with my trainer.

These photos were taken during the groundwork phase of this horse's early driving education but I have continued to work both of my horses in the long lines because I find it to be a really useful and fun training method. We're not doing airs above ground just yet :winkgrin: but my horses will do figures of 8 and serpentines at the trot; shoulder-in and haunches-in at the walk and they will side-pass in the long lines.

I'd like to see pictures of others long-lining and ground-driving your horses for comparison.

[Thomas_1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/LongreiningSullivan-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/kirilongreining-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/longreiningGemma0081.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/DSCF0042.jpg

And here's one I took on my last visit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/3stallions.jpg

[hundredacres]

Its called short hand rein and also sometimes known as short lining and is a technique employed in classical horse training and which I also utilise.

But its not ground driving and its not long reining!

Well, I am actually becoming confused because...well, the terms are used inconsistently in this thread. the Title of the thread says "ground driving"...so that has been what I am picturing (and what is what is described in the books...and what I have been learning)....

Sorry I am so confused. Oy. I will retreat and learn if I can sort this all out ;).

[~Freedom~]

The photos that Thomas presented are what I refer to as driving or "ground driving". Reins used over the back are to me simply lunging in double lines which may or may not have one line around the hind quarters.

Since I ride and have only been introduced to driving on a limited basis I tend to use the rein over the back to get in-hand work but then that is the same method the Spanish Riding schools use.

Driving as Thomas presented I will use to enhance the lateral responsivness of my horse.



Freedom, in story books the heroine always rescues the naggy, emaciated, neglected horse and has him from whoa to show in 3 months, despite the fact that she's never showed a horse before and must overcome many obstacles along the way such as the evil previous owner trying to reclaim horse, the horse getting sick, the horse being stolen, trouble with the family, stumbling across a jolly good old fashioned mystery with George, Anne, Timmy the dog and those boys...

Didn't you know that?

Sheesh.

CDD..Oppps sorry my bad.

yes, i was joking

SLC you are right and a joke.

[Thomas_1]

Here Long reining is just called long reining (or long lining or in some regional farming community areas then it might be called ground driving). But its called that whether its done as I am in those photos or whether its done on a circle. If we say ground driving or long reining here, it means the same thing. The former though would tend to be used by the heavy horse fraternity and the latter by the light horse and riding horse fraternity

I'm trawling through trying to find photos long reining on a circle which I think is what you guys call long reining. But I think I'm going to need to scan some tomorrow.

Since I ride and have only been introduced to driving on a limited basis I tend to use the rein over the back to get in-hand work but then that is the same method the Spanish Riding schools use. Its not. The Spanish Riding school long rein absolutely no different to how I do it. When they have the rein over the back that is short reining or short hand rein. I've got a load of photos of them doing both and will scan those for you too if you want to see them. The last photo I posted shows the 3 techniques mentioned. One horse being long reined - you can see the guy behind it. One horse doing short hand rein work - you can see the guy walking at its shoulder. And the final one in pillar reins doing basic kindergarten passage.

[~Freedom~]

at the same time, i know from dressage, that while bulletin board debates may demand the author to provide 'sources' and be able to debate cleverly to win bb popularity contests (people who don't quote sources argue they have 'practical experience' and chide those who quote books; those who quote books call those who don't 'uneducated', but it's very common in the TOB-style dressage debates to hear book quotes demanded or be roundly dissed), books aren't everything. there's no substitute for simply getting lessons from a good driving trainer. i think of books as a companion to learning any riding sport...but not the whole deal.




SLC I have read a ton of books. I have also taken lessons and now give lessons. There is a huge gap between quoting a book to "appear" you know something and actually quoting a specific passage that applies to the problem at hand to SUPPORT your real life experience.:yes:

Also when you quote it is nice to quote word for word as that author spend time and effort to express their thoughts and feelings in a very specific way and to bastardize a quote does the author a huge disservice.:no:

[~Freedom~]

Its not. The Spanish Riding school long rein absolutely no different to how I do it. When they have the rein over the back that is short reining or short hand rein. I've got a load of photos of them doing both and will scan those for you too if you want to see them.

Thomas, I am referring to the more close up in hand work that is the result of working from a more distant position ( normal sized circle) to the closer in hand work done to achieve the more collected movements.

I personally don't drive from behind that much anymore.

[Thomas_1]

I'm probably being thick, but I don't know which you mean?

do you have a photo?

[RidesAHaflinger]

HundredAcres, I'll give you my definition of the terms. From what I can gather, this is pretty universally accepted: "Ground-driving" is driving a horse from behind just as if he were hitched to a vehicle, except that he's not hitched. The driver walks along behind the horse. "Long-lining" is much more complicated and involves sending the horse away from you. The horse may be circling you as if longeing (hence the term "double-longeing") or he may be executing a variety of turns and changes of direction. All of this requires considerable skill on the part of the handler who has to be in the right place at the right time to properly cue the horse. During many if not most sessions, the techniques of ground-driving and long-lining are both used.

Short-reining is something you just have to see to believe. That's the way I felt about it when I was at the SRS and saw those incredible horses doing tempi changes, piaffe, passage and much more- and all with the handler right at the horse's haunch, with a 6' rein in each hand, his hands on either side of the horse's tail, giving aids that, try as I might, I could NOT begin to see. It's just the most humbling and awesome partnership between horse and human that you can imagine and truly something to aspire to.

[Thomas_1]

Did you manage to go to Piber as well? I've been going over for about 20 years now - even before they stopped you taking photos! ;) And have been very fortunate to go to masterclasses on long reining.

[RidesAHaflinger]

No, I did not get to visit the stud but I hope to get there on my next trip. I would love to take the long reining classes although I'm nowhere near the master level! As for photos, people are still snapping away even though it's *not allowed*. I followed the rules and got no photos as a result. :no:

[hundredacres]

Ack...the confusion is finally resolved. THANK YOU RidesaHaflinger.

I do not long line...I longe and ground drive. So my other question about the kimberwik now means, well, something altogether different. And NOW I understand some of this thread.

I appreciate the clarification. *slinking away...feeling a little dumb, but nonetheless a little smarter*

Sorry for hijacking here.

[Thomas_1]

No, I did not get to visit the stud but I hope to get there on my next trip. I would love to take the long reining classes although I'm nowhere near the master level! As for photos, people are still snapping away even though it's *not allowed*. I followed the rules and got no photos as a result. :no: When Sue and I last went, an American lady next to her got thrown out for taking photos! Expensive mistake!!!

Did you go to the carriage museum at the Schonbrunn Palace? I got a load of awesome photos there.

[Auventera Two]

Thomas - sorry but I have no time nor energy for your personal attacks. If you care to communicate as an adult than I will be happy to address you as such. Until then, you can sit in the corner and play with yourself.

As for the others -

Long lining and ground driving are indeed different. I start by long lining, with the off rein drawn over the back. I've heard people refer to this as double longing. As I said, this offers more control and a consistent feel on the lines. As the horse progresses and is more comfortable and consistent, I progress to ground driving from directly behind the horse with one line on each side. I'm sure each person does it their own way, and this is what has always worked very well for me and the horses.

I have seen it done several different ways, of which have all been addressed here. I wouldn't refer to any one style as being incorrect, but merely different, and utilized for any number of reasons. I feel that working the horse in hand is good basics from which the horse can graduate to under saddle work. I have ALWAYS trained every one of our babies to long line and ground drive before ever getting in the saddle. I feel that it develops trust and confidence in the youngster.

[Hoppy2]

WOW, I thought it was bad on the sporthorse board, but some of you guys speak terribly. I stopped in to see a little on the ground driving and was disappointed to see how some of you speak. Manners is a thing of the past, I'm afraid, No wonder our world is in such chaos when a simple discussion can turn so nasty.

Going back to lurking and to teach my children about how to treat others with repect, no matter their opinion.

added to say that I must be Canadian and we proud ourselves on politeness.

[KellyS]

There are many different ways to approach driving/long lining, etc, but the proof is in the pudding as they say--if your method is achieving the desired results, then that's the right way to do it for your horse/pony.

Someone asked for pictures. Here are some of our pony--you'll see that we chose not to have the lines down low; they are through the terrets and over the back. That's what worked best for him.

October 2005 (first week of ground driving):

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1527371520055731734JwcuRV

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1527371523055731734CeRJMI

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1527371609055731734SpsDjB

January 2006 (long lining or double lunging):

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2770042060055731734HLnOMD

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2898412350055731734tZOvko

August 2006 (long lining or double lunging):

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2095370860055731734NXsJkC

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2399193090055731734MIsAyj

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2944810310055731734YLXRMt

[War Admiral]

...And here's Miss Penny P (taken earlier this evening) showing the world how NOT to do it (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/Penny/longline_med.jpg) - on several counts! :cool: :lol: :eek: :rolleyes:

I really hate using a saddle instead of a surcingle. "Why" should be obvious! :D Only reason I did it was b/c I had to sweeten the deal for my header-cum-Parelli "Leader" (see Off Course thread) in order to get the help... She wanted to ride Penny after we got through fooling with her and I didn't feel like trudging back up the hill to the barn for a tack change. (Yes, bad call on my part.)

But - the good news: turns out Miss Penny Princess has no issues whatsoever about the offside line going around her quarters, once you are outside a stall. I had her headed while I flopped it up and down and around her back ankles, at one point, and she never flinched! So I'll be able to use the more correct position from now on.

I snapped the pic when I had to stop her anyway to fix the offside rein. Sadly I have no pics of her in motion from this session - a green horse, two lines, a whip AND a digicam is beyond my skill level I'm afraid. :D But she did a lot better than I expected.

As a redeeming factor (those visiting from the dressage board, please take note) I would ask that you compare her nice relaxed position in the above pic to her overbent and stressed frame when longed in side reins (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/goonrgrrl/Penny/penny_sidereins.jpg) (taken a couple of months ago). This is why lots of us advocate long-lining over lunging in side reins. ;)

[Thomas_1]

you'll see that we chose not to have the lines down low; they are through the terrets and over the back Whether you put the lines through the terrets is determined by how tall you are in relation to the height of the pony. The aim being to have a direct line from your hand through the reins to the horse's mouth. You'll see in my photo long reining the shetland that I'm using the terret rings.

[RidesAHaflinger]

When Sue and I last went, an American lady next to her got thrown out for taking photos! Expensive mistake!!!

Did you go to the carriage museum at the Schonbrunn Palace? I got a load of awesome photos there.

I have to say I was pretty irritated by people snapping flash pictures from all over the riding hall during the performance. It was distracting for spectators although the horses appeared not to notice. There was one incident when a young stallion being schooled in the lines spooked in reaction to sudden and enthusiastic applause. It was endearing, if anything. It looked like he was thinking 'well, gee, I guess I did that right!' :yes:

Please do post your photos from the carriage museum!

[MySparrow]

WOW, I thought it was bad on the sporthorse board, but some of you guys speak terribly. I stopped in to see a little on the ground driving and was disappointed to see how some of you speak. Manners is a thing of the past, I'm afraid, No wonder our world is in such chaos when a simple discussion can turn so nasty.

Going back to lurking and to teach my children about how to treat others with repect, no matter their opinion.

added to say that I must be Canadian and we proud ourselves on politeness.

This is an unusually vituperative exchange for our normally quite and supportive forum. Not sure how this thread got that way, but some very silly things have been said. I'm thinking that it's the sudden presence of people who don't normally post here and therefore aren't used to our voices nor we to theirs...

But the net result has been some really good information, great photographs and a good if testy discussion, and the introduction of new ideas.

I'm personally very excited to learn that putting a horse in crossties can be compared to working between pillars. I'm going out to look at my crossties and see if they can help me produce airs above the ground with my school ponies. Who knew? :lol:

[Auventera Two]

I'm personally very excited to learn that putting a horse in crossties can be compared to working between pillars. I'm going out to look at my crossties and see if they can help me produce airs above the ground with my school ponies. Who knew? :lol:

That was exactly my point :) - how incredibly silly it is to compare the basic ground driving and/or long lining to the working in hand that the SRS does with their Lipizzaner stallions. They are not comparable in the least. I was responding to the poster who implied that the basic ground driving done with youngsters can be compared to the in hand work the SRS does. No, the two are not even in the same universe. What's being discussed on this thread is pretty basic stuff that most people do before they ever sit on a horse. What the SRS does with their exhibition stallions is high school work.

So if one is going to say that this very basic ground driving with a green horse is the same as working a Lipizzaner stallion in the long reins, then you might as well say that sticking your horse in the crossties is the same as working in the pillars. Pretty ridiculous and silly indeed isn't it? i think so. ;) :D

[exvet]

I'm personally very excited to learn that putting a horse in crossties can be compared to working between pillars. I'm going out to look at my crossties and see if they can help me produce airs above the ground with my school ponies. Who knew?

Please call your vet first so they can be on standby ;)


......sorry....I've been following the discussion & couldn't resist

[MySparrow]

I'm personally very excited to learn that putting a horse in crossties can be compared to working between pillars. I'm going out to look at my crossties and see if they can help me produce airs above the ground with my school ponies. Who knew?

Please call your vet first so they can be on standby ;)


......sorry....I've been following the discussion & couldn't resist

if he were to receive this call from me! :eek::lol:

[Thomas_1]

Auventura your posts are interesting and you have got over a very succinct point very very clearly.

The point is you have demonstrated evidentially that you don't know what long reining, long lining, ground driving or working in pillar reins is at all. Not a scooby!

And neither it seems do you know that the Spanish Riding School does indeed long rein their horses and its absolutely no different to the work that good carriage horses do.

However its dead obvious that you have never actually long reined nor seen a half decent carriage horse being trained or worked.

[Thomas_1]

I'm personally very excited to learn that putting a horse in crossties can be compared to working between pillars. I'm going out to look at my crossties and see if they can help me produce airs above the ground with my school ponies. Who knew?

Please call your vet first so they can be on standby ;)

......sorry....I've been following the discussion & couldn't resist Might I suggest that this basic kindergarten training might be better with the applied use of an electric cattle prod.

It seems that if the horse jumps sideways with both cross ties round its back that will be erm...... long reining was it?

If it jumps forward with the cross ties straight behind it and you think you might eventually drive this pony, then that will be er....... ground driving

If it jumps a forward a long way and heading off for the neighbours doing passage along the way that will be er... long lining

If it jumps straight up that will be airs above ground and mission accomplished.

I look foward to seeing your pony in Vienna in September :winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

Thomas -

I think it is prudent that you keep in your mind that my posts are addressing the ORIGINAL POST by slc, on a rescued 10 year old pony with no handling.

You can say and think what trash you like, but the fact remains, I've trained horses for 20+ years, and started many many babies, both our own, and those of other people. I have taught nearly ALL of them to long line, and to ground drive. This is one of the very basics that I require young horses to know. It is excellent for conditioning, and for building trust and confidence without schooling on a small circle ad nauseum, as longeing does. So sorry Thomas, but you're not the only one in the world who knows how to work a horse in hand. ;)

Clearly working in hand can be perfected to an art, such as the SRS stallions, but what slc is doing with her rescue pony is far from that at this point. He's not a champion carriage horse, or a SRS stallion. He is a rescue pony learning trust and confidence, while being rehabilitated to health and function.

And ironically enough, our imported Piber mare was 14 years old, barely halter broken, and had the nastiest disposition I've ever encountered on a horse. I used these same techniques on her to build trust and confidence. She came to us bred to a Lipp stallion, she foaled out the baby and the pair of them went to a new home in upstate New York. I've posted photos of her before on here.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Might I suggest that you two go to your respective corners and take a chill pill?

"You say toe-MAY-toe, I say toe-MAH-toe, let's call the whole thing off..."

Personally, I am thoroughly enjoying Thomas1's postings and am finding them very educational. He seems to be a credible source of valuable information. I would hate to see him run off COTH by some argumentative posters. It would have been oh so much simpler to have responded, "Oh, that's an interesting point." Case closed.

Let's not worry about who called who what first. Can we continue on with the education of the masses?

Thanks.

[Thomas_1]

Auventera: Training for 20+ years??? So how old were you when you started?

You must think I'm senile. It was only last September that you posted that you didn't know how to cross water on a horse and didn't know if all horses could swim!
herehttp://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=63752
Originally Posted by Two Simple
So - what would you guys have done? Can all horses swim? How do you know if a river is safe to cross? I'd like more info on river crossings since typically I take the bridge and don't do the water. I thought I was being brave, but that really freaked me out. I was angry at myself that I wimped out and turned back halfway across. There were a few other riders who didn't do the water either but I still felt dumb.

Any advice?


And I still can't wait to see the photos of you long lining and ground driving and I'm waiting with baited breath to see what the difference is

Never seen your Lipizzaner. Would love to see photos and see her brand and breeding? I've had numerous ones over my lifetime but never one untrained. It must have cost you a fortune to import her as I know what it cost me just to bring to the UK.
So sorry Thomas, but you're not the only one in the world who knows how to work a horse in handNever said I was. But I sure know enough to be able to smell bovine excrement. The thing is you don't drive and don't know about long reining and that is demonstrably evident by your postings. There's a lot of experienced and knowledgeable folks on the driving threads and you've popped over here arguing about a topic about which you obviously have limited knowledge and for the sheer heck of it.

Now this will be my last posting to you on this matter because your constant demonstration of lack of experience is as interesting as raisins in turkey stuffing.

You hide behind a forum name arguing and giving out your assertions and information and ordinarily its way off beam. IMO it needs contradicting in so far as its incorrect but I'm sure folks can make up their own minds on these threads.

[Auventera Two]

Oh, you don't have to ask me twice to post photos! She was a real lovely girl! :D Here is her pedigree also:
http://www.waltzinghorsefarm.com/pedigrees/Pedigree_Birta-63.htm

Her sire was 364 Conversano Roviga. This is from the website of her new home. We did not import her - they did. And they eventually wanted her back for their breeding program, and we agreed. We figured it was more profitable for her to be part of their breeding program than to train her as a riding mare, seeing that we had so many others to focus on as well. She was a great mother, and her foal was spectacular! She didn't seem to have the disposition for being a great riding horse, and at her age, I guess we figured, what's the use?

This is getting a bit off topic, but I hope slc won't mind. I think she really likes the SRS horses, and I believe she's been there at least once, also, if I remember correctly???

[RidesAHaflinger]

I've trained horses for 20+ years, and started many many babies, both our own, and those of other people. I have taught nearly ALL of them to long line, and to ground drive.

Surely there are photos from your 20+ years of ground-driving and long-lining! Please do share them so we can all benefit from your experience. It's always useful to see how others accomplish their goals.

[Thomas_1]

How comes she came from Piber when she's out of an Hungarian line mare? Where's her brands?

[Tamara in TN]

[I]

Please call your vet first so they can be on standby ;)


......sorry....I've been following the discussion & couldn't resist

bahhhhh....vets is always trying to drum up business from someone :lol::lol:

Tamara in TN

[Auventera Two]

How comes she came from Piber when she's out of an Hungarian line mare? Where's her brands?

No clue. You can see her 63 brand clearly. She had two other faint brands that were barely visible. You're more than welcome to contact her owner if you like and request more information. I believe you can find their contact information on the site provided. :) Or since you visit Piber so frequently, perhaps you can inquire about her while you're there!

Long lining photos - yes, I do actually have some, but they're on my home computer, don't have them here at work.

[Dalfan]

So sorry Thomas, but you're not the only one in the world who knows how to work a horse in hand.

Are you sure about that AT? That's not the impression I get lurking on this thread. Seems if you disagree with T1 you will get more than you bargained for with personal attacks, name-calling and accusations of fraud and cluelessness. Talk about arrogance and nastiness! Whew!! Could it be an English thing?

Pretty mare and baby, btw.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Welcome to the Driving Forum, Dalfan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that IS your very first post here, correct? :winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

Are you sure about that AT? That's not the impression I get lurking on this thread. Seems if you disagree with T1 you will get more than you bargained for with personal attacks, name-calling and accusations of fraud and cluelessness. Talk about arrogance and nastiness! Whew!! Could it be an English thing?

Pretty mare and baby, btw. And who are you and what makes you qualified to know :winkgrin:

And welcome to the driving threads. Great first posting ;)

[Auventera Two]

Dalfan - yup, that's pretty much the way it goes. On this forum and horseshoes.com also. And not only do you get a public name calling and harassment attack, you will also get it on private message as well.

Thanks for the compliment on mom and punkin. :) I was thrilled to have a chance to become aquainted with the breed, and the history. I've seen the stallions perform a couple of times, but having Birta pushed me to explore the SRS a bit more. Tons of neat history and culture.

[Dalfan]

Welcome to the Driving Forum, Dalfan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that IS your very first post here, correct?

Thanks a bunch!! Yes, my first post. I have this thing for bullies, don't you know?

And who are you and what makes you qualified to know

More than qualified Sir, to recognize a fellow nasty. ;) Are you always this put out when someone does not follow your advise, or does things a little different?

At one time I was interested in learning to drive with the 23 year old guy in my pickys, but unfortunately he passed before we could start.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Folks, can we call it quits on the squabbling please? Enough is enough. I'll be the first one to lay down the gloves and walk out of the ring. Who's man enough to follow me?

[Dalfan]

I'm in. :D

[Auventera Two]

Hell, it's Friday, why not? :D :lol:

[War Admiral]

No, NO! *I* wanna fight w/ Thomas!!! I do, I do!!! Lemme at 'im!! :D:lol::lol:








*kidding*

[Thomas_1]

No, NO! *I* wanna fight w/ Thomas!!! I do, I do!!! Lemme at 'im!! :D:lol::lol:
*kidding* And who are you and what makes you qualified to fight? *KIDDING*:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

[Dalfan]

And who are you and what makes you qualified to fight?

We are woman, of course. :D:cool:;):lol::yes:

[Thomas_1]

So that means you'll have to have the last word:yes::winkgrin:

[Dalfan]

So that means you'll have to have the last word

With age comes experience, yes T1.:D:D:lol:

[hundredacres]

You know what...I am immune to this "squabbling" because I visit another board (not horse related) and it is WICKED compared to this. It's wicked compared to the worst of the worst fights on this board. And it's a soap makers forum! lol

So to me, the squabbles provide me a tad bit of entertainment, albeit they do get boring from time to time. This one though, I learned a bunch from it so I think it was just fine!

Carry on.

:)

[Thomas_1]

what the heck is there to argue about with soap?

[hundredacres]

lol...it is so petty. They are so wound up - about who invented what, and what is skin-safe and what is not...and then who stole what recipe and who has alter egos so they could steal formulas....and then there is the off topic board. O. M. G. Oh, and there is basically no moderation and they use THE worst language anywhere and the board owner claims "freedom of speech" and lets people just ruin every single thread.

But alas...I'm derailing this topic now, and for that I am sorry (again).

[KellyS]

Perhaps this thread qualifies as the first official Driving Forum trainwreck! Chugga chugga choo! :D

Where's my popcorn and soda? :winkgrin:

And geez, soap...whoda thunk it could be such a controversial topic?

[Thomas_1]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/SDC/SDC169/244435SDC.jpg

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10904912/Pepsi_Cola_Products_.jpg

[KellyS]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/SDC/SDC169/244435SDC.jpg

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10904912/Pepsi_Cola_Products_.jpg

:lol: :D :winkgrin: :cool: :lol:

Happy Friday y'all!

[~Freedom~]

Thomas - sorry but I have no time nor energy for your personal attacks. If you care to communicate as an adult than I will be happy to address you as such. Until then, you can sit in the corner and play with yourself.




LOL Love ya Thomas and I am sure your's is plenty big enough!

[Tamara in TN]

what the heck is there to argue about with soap?


that was my question but then I also lurked once on a breastfeeding forum....oh my god is all I can say....thank heaven for petty arguments here where we really do try to get along....:yes: ya'll ain't seen nothing

Tamara in TN

[Auventera Two]

I post on an IBS forum (yes, that would be iritable bowel syndrome :eek:) but people there are pretty nice and in 2 years I've never seen a single fight. I think that's only because they all think they're dying.

P.S. But I don't post because I have IBS. I post because I have had many kidney and gall stones, and its for that too. LOL

[Thomas_1]

They're probably too anally retentive to argue!

[goeslikestink]

thomas 1 - matey when i long line -- iuse my saddle as i dont have a surgingle or roller -- and i do go behind the horse quarters--

may i speak -- if a horse is or has been ill treated as such like the op
then -- to my mind going along its back with reins isnt the way to do it
think horse for one moment rather than long lining for the long line- ing thats being done at present isnt correct ans will do no favours in the long run

let add that with expreince of a an exsample of horses taht i have rescued
with driving isssues and thomas 1 you can correct me if like
open minded

now in my years of working with horses and resucing them for many reasons
i have had a few that have been driven - yes folks i can drive be it all bit rusty since supper teds death-- ie the ted the shettie

a matey when i was in my aunty barbs yard when a young lass
had a horse called storm---
they taught him exactly how the op teaching him to drive
then they connected up a nice carriage --- this was in oct and theweather
had prevoiusly brought down some trees -- but the waehter during this process was good clear and sunny-- so they hook him up
the horse storm - took to the carraige for all of 10mins
then bolted straight into the tree -- and tipped the carriage over himself
and broke both front legs and back.

horse -- 2
sam-- little pony --13.2hh went longing rein ing down the road with owner reins over back----- lorry comes up the road
didnt have no control horse bolted trampling owner-- owner luckily bruised
had to re school horse as fear of roads and not very educated

horse 3 oscar
lead out -- agian with the inexpreinced so call knowleagbe person
with long reins over the back
3 people one horse of 15.2h-- people were behinds said horse
with ong reins and also a whip--- tractor ploughinh fields along the road
horse got scared and bolted --- long lines flapping falls over
and breaks a leg


just a few sernerios but know heaps more

long lining over the back you have no control of your horse
you think you do --but dont --- now iam not talking expreince hands
as in mos when people drive they are doing it from a lower level
which is of course my level and not thomas 1 ---
but doesnt matter if you are lower level or not -- you have to understand that wether you are train ing ahorse to ride or drive the education
of the correct way to long line -- is inperative -- period

if you are wanting full control of your horse then it whatever wether be it ridden or driving -- for 100% basic knowledge

then learn by the educated people that have offered you a free consultation in how to get it right by doing it right so that you can to be safe when you drive -- as unlike the ridden horse the driven horse is at least 8ft away from you ---

as to say one is arrogant or snotty then you miss
the professionalism thats being offereed for free of charge

one who has competed with the best in the world and one of whome is sso highly thought in his now chosen field of equinism
is to be respected and not mocked

aventura drive four in hand -- thats not one horse but four
all highly school high schooled dressage
and beleive me as hes done that and comepeted with the best then hes up there and probabaly knows - goerge bowen and the duke of wales
so you think on on who you are talking to
and op -- be wise and learn what said -- from those
that have said to correctly long rein with the rein behind the butt
once you do you will be safer in the long run

[Thomas_1]

goerge bowen and the duke of wales That will be George Bowman senior and George Bowman jnr and the Duke of Edinburgh ;)

[Auventera Two]

aventura drive four in hand -- thats not one horse but four
all highly school high schooled dressage
and beleive me as hes done that and comepeted with the best then hes up there and probabaly knows - goerge bowen and the duke of wales
so you think on on who you are talking to
and op -- be wise and learn what said -- from those
that have said to correctly long rein with the rein behind the butt
once you do you will be safer in the long run

The OP isn't looking to drive 4 in hand. She's interested in rehabbing a rescue pony and doing some long lining with him. And all I said is that it is perfectly acceptable to bring the outside line over the back and LONG LINE the pony in that matter. I never said it was GROUND DRIVING. They are different. And no, I don't need to get personally attacked for saying what I did. We're not talking FEI competition here. We're talking a rescued pony who is in kindergarten. Nothing more, nothing less. I dont see the need for all the drama.

The fact is, most people who have grown up riding and training dressage their whole life, know how to long line a horse, because it's one of the basics of ground training. I learned to long line when I was in grade school, and I've been doing it ever since. Most of my professional training has been in dressage and jumping. I've taken about a zillion lessons and clinics since I was old enough to sit on a horse. Believe it or not, I do know how to do groundwork with a horse. Sheesh.

So again, there is no reason to attack me for giving the info that I did. I never said I know more than Thomas. I never said I was an expert ta the highest level of competition. For christ sake, all I said is that it's perfectly acceptable to draw the line over the back and LONG LINE the horse, and then progress to GROUND DRIVING later. This is how I've always done it, and it's always worked for me.

The OP can read all the comments and choose which method she wishes to pursue. But the name calling and attacks are ridiculous. We're all adults here and I do believe we can challenge ourselves to act like it.

And besides, yesterday we all decided to "lay down the gloves" so lets do it, hu? :D We're all here for the same purpose and that's because we like this board, we love horses, and we enjoy sharing what we know.

[jej]

It's always interesting to read everyone's responses!

I am impressed that so many people long rein their horses -it's such a great tool for starting young horses.

I have long reined all my youngsters, from small ponies to 16.3 TBs, and have always found it challenging. It's a tough skill to learn, and I only do it on a basic level. My horses can walk, trot and canter on the bit, do simple serpentines and figure eights at trot - some at canter. Once I start to ride them, I only return to it if I feel I need to. My "bible" has been Sylvia Stanier's book, The Art of Long Reining, although I do not aspire to be as accomplished as the author!

I have long reined youngsters who are going to be ridden, but starting a driving horse is very different. And ground driving and the preparation for hooking the pony to a cart, is a very different skill.

Driving is a very different discipline than riding - and I am constantly humbled when my skills, developed as a rider, just don't translate!

It takes patience and hard work to learn a skill correctly - and I must not be naturally gifted, as I have to work very hard. I don't find any of it easy! Kudos to those of you who do!

[hundredacres]

jej, I am with you - I was not blessed with the natural gift of riding either. It's work for me. And sometimes I feel like a complete moron. But, I plug away. I've had horses for 20 years and I keep plugging away...maybe I'll get it all down perfectly about the time I'm too old to heave myself up there any longer.

[goeslikestink]

i to have plugged away to get it right as it helps the horse to balanced

aventura-- wasnt attacking -- look mate wether you got one horse or 4 6 or 8
to be driven -- then they all must be well obdedant and balanced
and by learning the correct way to long rein you are going to get that
and its be tens times safer-- and be in more control if things go wrong

and you missing the point ---- be safe -- safe -- at all times life is to short to cut corners with

any body can be to happy and to quick to long rein over the back but unless you have exprence hands and the horse is expreince to learn upper levels -- then dont as i was trying to get you too see that it can be a disaster-- and can inflick injuires beyond control - even death....

as the horse has to learn the basic before it can learn the advanced

- think the old saying dont run before you can walk

i can long rein correctly and do with youngsters and older horses that come in to be rehab etc and altho rusty can drive a pony and trap
but thats it with me drivings kills --as i like to just go out and have fun
and i am the same as every body else just joe bloggs out on with his pony
doing his/her own thing--

i do and have judge the barrraged --in driving classes for strong grit p
with bookham carriage club-- only becuase my mates drive
and do well -- with scurries and stuff and i am intersted in it plus
i am a jump judge --- have been for over 20yrs or so --with british pony clubs--events.

and i like the barrage as its a obstical course and fun to watch the ponies of different sizes and sorts and carriages and then the pairs love it when they all dressed up and there little legs go nineteen to the dozen in uniform so fast as they speed round the corners trying not to knockof the ball -- i love that contest

and i love it when the big old shires from youngmans come down and let the kids longline them in the pony club i have a great one with our debs when she was 12 and she was allowed to do it by self as she had shown her knowledge when the master -- was showing them how to do it -- she picked up the reins and explained to him so he just watched her didnt go round with debs at all -- big powerful horses --

and they two have the long reins -- over butt end these horses arnt ridden they are driven down the streets of london -- pulling big huge drays
and then they have a holiday at the hop farm here in kent
they so beautiful when all tarted up with ribbon plaited in ther manes
and the dray is enchanced with brass fittings-- and sign written with lodds of beer barrels-- breathtaking

i love the carriages and carrige horses in all there glory- just something
thats repectful historical and blooming lovely to see

[goeslikestink]

yeah thomas them ones --
i get it now matey ---with assoc of fei and of whome the founder is
haha mr thomas 1 -- its you
then you my freind are also world class as if you know them
of which i have always thought you did - and as you chums with them
then that makes you world class to becuase you cant be if you wasnt one--
i take my hat of to you thomas and i am honured to know you and wifey

see you knew who i was talking about then duke of edingborugh

why i said wales doh thats his son prince charles

[goeslikestink]

i meant the driving one

[Hoppy2]

It does not matter who people know or if they are an expert in certain areas, treating people with respect is what it is all about. Express your opinion and let others express theirs, if you disagree, state why you think this way and let others come to their own conclusion. No need to belittle people or resort to name calling.

[Thomas_1]

Hoppy2,

Your opinion is interesting. But in the spirit of honesty you need to know that I frequently abuse the word "Interesting" and when I use it I often mean:

Rubbish
Bizarre
Wrong (but I can't be bothered arguing)
You must be joking
So what
I really don't care
Does anyone care

Its also interesting that your only contribution on the driving threads is about nothing to do with driving but is merely a criticism of those who you deem to be critical.

Its interesting that you hold the opinion that the purpose of an internet forum is to provide for folks without challenge when they post opinions and what they deem to be information.

Its interesting that you thought there would be no intellectual debate and total harmony on any internet forum.

Its interesting that you hadn't appreciated that Internet forums exist for a host of reasons and folks visit them for all sorts of reasons and the styles and opinions and personality types are as numerous as those who post.

Its interesting that you hadn't thought that respect is an earned commodity

My opinion is that your views are as interesting as raisins in turkey stuffing.

My view is that the driving threads on this forum are active and with in the main (no names mentioned) articulate, knowledgeable and opinionated group of adult members who post without hiding behind the cloak of anonymity. Like all forums it won't suit everyone and those who don't like it won't stay around to read it and some will become addicted to it.

You clearly don't and that's interesting and so I can't help but wonder why you keep coming to post about the style of it?

And as you more regularly use the internet you will come to appreciate that whilst you can entirely control what you read, you can't control what folks write. So don't read it. Its entirely within your gift.

Heck I once joined a horse forum and a poster asked "Can asprin be given to horses" and everyone had answered No. My first posting merely said yes and explained what circumstances it would be given and I immediately got 2 pm's and an open response saying "we never disagree here and its not friendly to say if others are wrong". Well I don't like being around those who like being kept in the dark and fed excrement so I was out of there pronto. I can however give you the details of that forum as the style might well suit you better and they are somewhat short of members and desperate for postings as they seem to average only about 2 per day.

Either that or if you don't want to read personal exchanges and opinion then you might be better picking up a book on carriage driving and I can recommend many.

Finally I'm somewhat gob-smacked you don't already know about opinions and argument:- if you've had anything at all to do with horses you must surely know that for everything you do and ask there's a hundred opinions and every holder of those opinions knows that there's only their way to do it and will be able to argue that till they're blue in the face!

If you want information , advise or opinions sugar coated buy a bakery.

[Dalfan]

It does not matter who people know or if they are an expert in certain areas, treating people with respect is what it is all about. Express your opinion and let others express theirs, if you disagree, state why you think this way and let others come to their own conclusion. No need to belittle people or resort to name calling.

Couldn't agree with you more, Hoppy2. Oh but, haven't you noticed - this seems to be the modus operandi if someone disagrees with him. I opined that it could be an English thing - could be many other reasons as well, which I won't go into - yet.

Its interesting that you hadn't thought that respect is an earned commodity

Have you thought about this?

My opinion is that your views are as interesting as raisins in turkey stuffing.

I can tell, this is your well-worn zinger. :sleepy:

Its interesting that you hadn't appreciated that Internet forums exist for a host of reasons and folks visit them for all sorts of reasons and the styles and opinions and personality types are as numerous as those who post.

Obviously, she has. She's giving hers regarding your - style, shall we say.

[RU2U]

There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. If a person comes to me and wants to learn, you can't knock them for that. But once a person learns and chooses to ignore my advice well, that is just stupidity.

[Dalfan]

But once a person learns and chooses to ignore my advice well, that is just stupidity.

Perhaps they found a better way. A different way that better suits their circumstances. Maybe a different "expert" told them to do it a different way. So someone who doesn't do something the way you like it done - is stupid?

[hitchinmygetalong]

I opined that it could be an English thing

:eek:

Well, my ignore list just grew by one.

[Dalfan]

Well, my ignore list just grew by one.

Ah, just love those announcements. I suppose you just skimmed over and ignored all the insults T1 threw out there to hoppy2. Ah, so evenhanded.

[Sabine]

I don't drive horses- I ride them- I like reading Thomas-1 because he seems to know what he does in regards to driving and I enjoy his posts- merely for information- although I have nothing to add or say-at least at this point in my life- I might fall off tomorrow and be unable to ride- then I will surely seek his advise- there are some other posters that make sense- the rest is just the typical crowd that is involved when threads get locked- people get banned and so on-...a somewhat dysfunctional and unhappy group...and really not worth the effort to shut them up- because most likely they will not go away- as confrontation is the stuff the thrive on....

just my observation.. ;)

[Thomas_1]

I don't drive horses- I ride them Heck join the club. It seems that quite a few on this thread don't but still have plenty of opinions ;)

I might fall off tomorrow and be unable to ride- then I will surely seek his advise-;) Hey driving is wayyyyyy too much much fun and excitement to wait till you fall off :winkgrin:

[chitowncd]

There's a reason why there's gigging going on over improper methods used for ground driving. It's *that* much more important to have no holes in a horse's training in harness than under saddle.

Under saddle, one goes backs to basics. In harness, there's a vehicle involved as well as less potential control because there's no one on the back of the horse. Unless you're driving postillion, and that's another story. It's not so simple to go back to basics after a bad wreck. The horse may have come mentally unglued and will never be suitable for driving ever again. Not to mention the cost involved of replacing the vehicle and harness.

IOW, do it right the first time so you don't wreck later.

[RU2U]

Dalfan - I guess I should of made myself a little more clear...I was actually giving the OP credit for even asking, and I felt it was cruel that everyone was giving them such a hard time!

As you can see there is alot of ways to train a horse, but the basics are the same. You do have to follow steps 1-4 (hypothetically speaking) you can't just skip to step 4. It is better that a person does ask for help, instead of training a horse poorly and them getting hurt. People on this web site have a tendency to get defensive in an abusive way towards people who ask pretty basic questions. Which I understand, not a week goes by when someone doesn't come to the forum and say - Tomorrow I am going to drive my horse.(Including myself) They do need to learn that there is alot involved, but as mentors we all have to do it gently. When it comes to getting nasty, well, this shouldn't be the place for it. The gal asked for help! Everyone has their own opinions and you just read mine!

[slc2]

meanwhile, the pony is now walking with the longe lines around his backside, and will be trotting and cantering that way soon, when he's ready.

but please, please, don't let any reality intrude into this little discussion :D PLEASE carry on.

i was planning on doing that long before I was given The Gospel of Thomas, as it was what common sense, the local instructor, most other driving instructors, most likely, and 'nearly all books and magazines on teaching driving advise' (according to another driving friend).

i did not follow the advice of the seller, to hitch the pony to a cart one day and take it to a driving show the next. why? well, because anyone with half a brain would think, 'gee, that doesn't sound like a particularly clever idea'.

[War Admiral]

:lol::lol::lol:

Great post!

And BTW Penny, too, is now long-lining with the outside rein around her quarters. I didn't think it would take her too long to catch on... And it didn't!

[slc2]

yeah, i edited to reduce the snark index. i hope you still like it.

that's great about your horse.

i gotta tell you, war admiral, perhaps i am a senile old bat or my brain cells are completely deteriorated, but i am finding this whole process extremely exciting. there is something REALLY cool about working the horse out in front of me that is...you know that scene where katherine hepburn pilots the boat over the rapids in the African Queen? it's like that.

when i was a little kid i got a ride in a buggy from a young amish girl. we were going along and i asked the horse's name. she said, 'It's Robert'. i have to admit i was stunned.

[hundredacres]

slc, I am finding ground driving (and any ground work at all for that matter) exciting too. I have actually felt *some days* that i don't care if I ever ride again. I wish that I'd learned this as a younger person...but then again I wish I'd learned a lot of what I know now when I was younger. Maybe it's only now that I can take my time and try to get it right.

The African Queen analogy cracked me up, BTW ;). As I am picturing me driving the big black Percheron in my barn...and well, never mind. It's probably totally inapprropriate!

[~Freedom~]

i was planning on doing that long before I was given The Gospel of Thomas, as it was what common sense, the local instructor, most other driving instructors, most likely, and 'nearly all books and magazines on teaching driving advise' (according to another driving friend).



Looks like Thomas is finally reading the same right books you are.:yes::D:lol:

[Thomas_1]

You think? I was thinking she just can't help herself with the smart ass comments but I'd least she was catching up and nearly on the same page. :yes::D:lol::winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

i gotta tell you, war admiral, perhaps i am a senile old bat or my brain cells are completely deteriorated, but i am finding this whole process extremely exciting. there is something REALLY cool about working the horse out in front of me that is...you know that scene where katherine hepburn pilots the boat over the rapids in the African Queen? it's like that.


That made me laugh out loud! That movie is great!! :lol: Katherine H. is hilarious.

Great to hear things are going well. I also love ground driving. I used to drive a team of Haflinger ponies for my boss at the dairy farm every Saturday and it was just exhilerating. He did pulling competitions with them also and a couple of times we hooked them to the sled loaded with lord knows how many tons of weight. It was the coolest thing to see them set down in the harness and pull their little hearts out. And THAT reminded me of Dances with Wolves when Cisco helps him clear out all the rubbish by pulling it to the top of the hill for burning!

I'm big on diversity, and find that anything I've done with a horse is exhilerating. I'll try anything, and I do wish I had a cart. My late mare was great at ground driving and we tried her in training shafts and she had no objection. My goal was to get her going in cart, but her sudden death snuffed that out.

My fancy little foo foo princess Arab would look great in cart. She's the queen of the high steppin' look at me I'm so pretty club. When I get her in the lines she just struts. I work hard to remind her that endurance horses shouldn't give a damn about looking sexy.