Arab/Warmblood crossing

[tempichange]

So I've been considering this cross for sometime, and there are quite a number of older-style Hannos (if not one nice modern one) in the area that would complement this paticular mare well.

I was curious as to the success of the cross, if the verbands would consider the foal for inspection and what the marketability was for something like this.

[cheekyhorse]

I personally really like the arab warmblood crosses. I've seen some nice ones. Don't know about Hanover for that though........I have seen Trak cross, which is quite popular and dutch cross, and those have turned out really nice! I have a friend that has a swedish/anglo arab that has FEI talent written all over her, but the mare is quite hot and I'm not sure if mentally she can take it. (But I don't know what the dam was like on that one.....)

[BigHorseLittleHorse]

My mom has a (retired) registered Trakehner gelding by Condus who was gorgeous in his prime. Condus was by a Trakehner stallion out of a TB/Arab mare.

Here are some pictures: http://www.gestuet-haemelschenburg.de/html/e_condus.html

[cheekyhorse]

IMHO I wouldn't cross an arabian with anything other than a Trakehner if you are going to go warmblood. That cross is proven time and time again.......... (but being a Trakehner owner, I would see it that way!!;) )

[Oakstable]

The Hanoverian stallion Wonderful was crossed with a quality Arabian mare and produced very successful offspring. Details on his web site.

Heather Buttrum in AZ has been crossing large Trakehner mares with the Arabian sire, Aul Magic.

If I were going to do a cross, I would look for a stallion who has a following among the Arabian crowd. The person buying a cross is an Arabian person, not a warmblood person, IMHO.

I'd look at which WB stallions are AHA Sweepstakes Nominated.

[Cold Spring Farm]

Okay -- I'll chime in (again!) on this topic!!

I have a lovely 2-yr-old Rosenthal gelding, out of my purebred Arab mare. The mare is GOV MMB, so her son is double registered AHA and GOV. Going the other way, a friend of mine has a gorgeous filly by her Arab stallion, out of a Contucci/Riverman mare.

I've seen the cross work (and not work!) using stallions from all the European studbooks. Personally, (and this is a veeery broad generalization) you need to look for a refined stallion with a well placed SI joint, long hip and strong, wide loins and a big canter (who has, hopefully, shown a propensity to pass these traits forward!)....among other qualities!

I am breeding my imported Hano mare to a purebred Arab for an 08 foal (breeding her to the sire of my GOV purebred mare) and am also breeding a spectacular purebred mare to Fabuleux (this week!!)

Check out the High Point Hanoverians website.....there is a lovely Rosenthal HA filly on there, as well. And the booking fee is waived for purebred Arab mares to all Angela's stallions.

As far as marketabililty, well, truth be told, be prepared to sit on them for a while! While there is a market, it is still small, particularly for babies. I think the market expands beyond died-in-the-wool Arab lovers once these horses are riding age, because that is where they shine! If your cross gets the best attributes of both sides of the pedigree, you will end up with a light, responsive horse that with just enough size, lovely gaits, that is easy to look at and easy to ride, has great retention, and tends to stay sound and be low maintenance. THOSE are the kinds of horses that are always in demand.

When done right and when it works -- this is a cross that can't be beat!

[Dawn J-L]

(snip)

If I were going to do a cross, I would look for a stallion who has a following among the Arabian crowd.

I think the OP has an Arabian mare that would be crossed with a WB.


For anyone looking for a Arab stallion of sport horse type to produce a WB cross, there ARE some nice ones that have a "name" among the Arabian sport horse crowd, but there are others who are as good or better that aren't as heavily promoted and yet can still be found with a little googling. FWIW, the Arab SH "crowd" appears just as fadish as the WB "crowd" with breeding to the name du jour and quickly moving on to the next new sparkly sire of the moment. Wise breeders will always select the individual that best compliments the other horse in the breeding equation. "Ibn Current Dressage Star" might not be the best match for a particular mare.


The person buying a cross is an Arabian person, not a warmblood person, IMHO.

That may be changing as good representatives of such crosses do well. ;-) But, such crosses are going to sell best under saddle.



I'd look at which WB stallions are AHA Sweepstakes Nominated.

The Arabian Sweepstakes is largely useless for the sport horse division at the Arab shows and not at all an issue for open shows (few Arab sport horse folks show exclusively at Arab shows most also show open--perhaps most show predominantly or exclusively at non-AHA venues.).

[Marieke]

I've been toying with this idea for quite some time. There are some really nice Arab mares in my area, and I think they would cross really well with Versace. How do I approach getting this to happen? And make that the offspring would be eligible to the half-arab classes? I need help!

[Texarkana]

Arab/Warmblood crosses have been the up-and-coming, supposed "next big thing" in the horseworld for at least the past 10 years... yet for some reason their popularity has failed to take-off. I really don't know why, although I suspect it is mainly due to the anti-arab stigma held by so many horse people. Because of this stigma, I think many of the arab crosses end up either on the arab circuit or with lower-level amateurs and never get a chance to prove their full potential in the open show ring.

As far as registration, most WB registries here in the States will approve good-quality arab mares. What they get faulted on most is lack of size. The WB/arab cross foals I've seen inspected have faired well, getting good marks and comments for the most part. If I was at home and not work, I'd attach a picture I have of a Hano/arab cross filly who was the high scoring foal at her Old-NA inspection a couple years ago.

[gortmore]

There are some gorgeous RID x Arabs and I am pretty sure that one of them was recently approved as an RIDSH stallion by the IDHSNA.

[Oakstable]

I have never owned an Arabian, but have watched friends' Arabian breeding programs. Arabians tend to have high fertility so it can be easy to get in deep with too many horses. The stallions do not need to be approved by a registry to breed. The vet costs are often low because of live cover.

The law of supply and demand often mean low prices.

I know there are exceptions.

I am intrigued with adding Arabian to a sporthorse breeding program, but so far I have left that to others and I remain an observer.

[Texarkana]

I've been toying with this idea for quite some time. There are some really nice Arab mares in my area, and I think they would cross really well with Versace. How do I approach getting this to happen? And make that the offspring would be eligible to the half-arab classes? I need help!

For the offspring to be eligible for HA classes at shows, you would need to register them as half-arabians with the AHA. The AHA makes the process very easy... you don't even need to be a member of the AHA. The arab parent does need to be registered with the AHA and you'll need their registration #. But otherwise, you just fill out the registration application and send them the check.

Here's the link to the AHA's registration site:
http://www.arabianhorses.org/registration.asp

[cyndi]

I have bred, owned and competed several arab/warmblood crosses. I prefer Oldenburg stallions and I prefer Arab mares bred to licensed Oldenburg stallions, for a number of reasons.

Oldenburg is very open to inspecting Arabian mares and they understand they are ARABIANS and not warmbloods and there is no height requirement. By using the Arab on bottom, you get a foal that can be inspected, branded and registered with the Oldenburg registery, which helps with marketability.
Also, I think you get 'more bang for your buck' with a warmblood stallion. I think the stud fees for most Arabian stallions are way out of line with their 'resumes.'

Frohwind, an Oldenburg five star stallion, is a proven cross with Arabians. Quite a few of those crosses have taken home national honors in the Arabian Sporthorse Nationals. I have three Frohwind offspring myself - two I bred, out of my half Arab mare who earned her Legion of Supreme Honor in dressage (obviously not registerable as half Arabians but I don't show a lot on the Arab circuit) and one I bought from Southern Breeze Sporthorses in Texas.

The oldest of my Frohwind crosses is coming 7 and is just starting to compete at Second level. I am an AA and have done all her training myself, with the help of a super coach. Flying Colorz (Fling) is just 15.1 but is a perfect match for me since I am 5 feet tall. She has moved up the levels quicker than any horse I've ever owned due to her athletic ability and SUPER work ethic. I loved her so much I bred my mare to Frohwind again and have her full sister, who is 2.

Faxxsimile, the Arab/Old colt I bought from his breeder, is also two and was a premium foal at his Old inspection, scoring 8.2 for movement. At his first and only rated Arabian show in January he won both his Sporthorse in Hand classes (with me showing him in amateur and my trainer showing him in open) out of 7 entries, and was Champion HA SHIH Gelding and High Score Half Arabian. He has an older full brother who has done very well on the East coast, and another full brother just born a few weeks ago. He is already 15.3 and is a real looker!

If you are breeding to sell, I agree with what someone said about being prepared to wait - people want horses already started. I am the odd one, though and almost always either breed mine or buy them very young. :D

I love the Arab/warmblood cross. In my experience, they are very forward, have lots of stamina and lots of 'heart.':yes:

You can see pics of them all on my website.

[Oakstable]

Donerail.

I like Frohwind, and he was the stallion I had in mind when I mentioned Sweepstakes Nominated.

He won the 100-day test years ago. He's Oldenburg ISR.

[ljshorses]

We breed 1 to 2 Arab/Warmblood crosses a year and yes I do believe you must be very careful of your cross and make sure they compliment each other. Too much variation in their conformation can make a mish mash of parts. I have had a lot of success in breeding my Book I RPSI approved Arab mare to Dutch stallions. This year she had her first Hanoverian foal and wow, what a nice colt. He has quite a bit more substance than the previous crosses but yet very smooth lines. The Dutch stallions or Dutch bred stallions (State of The Art, Art Deco)she was bred to in the past were a little lighter than this Hano stallion (Scimitar) but in her case all worked well, just depends on how much bone and substance you want in the end. She had a amazing filly by Nico (Dutch/Freisan cross) that is now doing competitive driving. A good Arabian mare can produce wonderful Warmblood crosses, just as I said , must be careful and make sure conformationally their "lines" are similiar. Here is a couple pics of foals we have had in the past that had Arab dams and Warmblood sires.

[cyndi]

Donerail.

I like Frohwind, and he was the stallion I had in mind when I mentioned Sweepstakes Nominated.

He won the 100-day test years ago. He's Oldenburg ISR.


I obviously like him since I have three of his kids. :D He also produces a high percentage of premium foals, if you check the Oldenburg/ISR 'yearbook.' Also, his owner is absolutely super to work with. On one of my breedings, they had a problem collecting him and sent the shipment same day air to make it in time for my mare's ovulation. Cost them over $300 and they picked up the tab. Can't ask for much more than that. My mare (an 11-year-old maiden at that point) caught on the first try the first time I bred her. She was five years older the second time I bred her and it just took two tries. I think he is 23 now and I hope they are filling the freezer!:D

[Hillside H Ranch]

My only input is to be careful about breeding two vastly differing types. You mentioned older style Hanoverians being crossed on your arab mare, I think? Be careful that "older style" isn't the super heavy, enourmously boned type animal being bred to a refined (I assume?) arab. I've seen this happen and the results weren't great; too much disparity in type can give you a horse with awkward looking parts. I would look for more of a refined type warmblood and breed more type to type.

[Oakstable]

A friend bred an Arabian mare to a 16.3H Trakehner and the result was a big boned, big moving horse with the worst neck I have EVER seen on a horse. The mare's neck came in deep out of her chest and the offspring was extremely ewe necked. I have never seen any of her offspring by Arabian stallions with such a neck. The cross exaggerated it for some reason.

[tri]

There are quite a few registries that will accept them and give them very high marks. But, what the warmblood registries like and will approve and what is marketable here in the U.S. are often two entirely different things - something that more and more wb breeders are becoming aware.

The cons and why so many don't sell quickly are:

1. Size. Many are too small. So if you do the cross, try to do it with a larger arabian and keep some size.

2. The anti arab attitudes within the hunter world. When breeding warmbloods & Tbs, if you don't get the big dressage movement or the big ring jumper jump, the horse often times can be successful at least as a lower end hunter. With the arab/wb cross , if it doesn't get the movement or the big jump, often times the hunter market doesn't want it either (too araby) so the horse has fewer options.

[Oakstable]

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1003195

I did a search for Frohwind offspring and found this guy.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

May I butt in here for just a moment to ask if any of you have pics of your ADULT WB/Ayrab crosses? I have seen lots of babies but not many adults. There used to be an ATA stallion who is Arab/Trakehner cross.

[Oakstable]

That stallion is by Peron and he is pretty cute.

[holsteinersrock]

The Arab/WB cross works well, especially for dressage!

Our Concerto Grosso (Holsteiner, and Old/NA) has produced two "to die for" fancy Arab crosses, both were reserve champions at their inspection sites and have matured into fantastic youngsters. Baby pictures at http://www.westwiththewind.com/concertogrossofoals.html

I am sure that any prepotent Hanoverian, Trakehner etc quality stallion should be able do the same, nor should one forget the Anglo-Arab (Arabian x TB).

Anna

[Holly Jeanne]

Here's an Arab-Trakehner stallion: http://www.karinosfire.moonfruit.com/

I believe she posts here sometimes.

HEre is the 1/2 Arab son of Peron who is approved with the American Trakehner Association:

http://americantrakehner.com/Stallions/TFPeronsBrilliance.asp

Two pretty good examples of the cross I'd say! :D

[saxony]

The first mare I bred to my stallion was an Arab mare. That foal is now 4 years old and just going under saddle. He is proving to be an incredible riding horse. My 13 year daughter is riding him and he is just awesome. I already have people trying to buy him from us. I wish I could have repeated this cross, but the mare is now 22 and I don't want to risk breeding her again. I would do this cross again in a heartbeat. I will say, however, that you will probably want to go with the Polish Arab and not the Egyptian Arab if you are breeding for a sporthorse.

[cyndi]

Here is my coming seven Frohwind daughter - out of a half Arab mare, but turned out "prettier" than mom, even. ;) She is competing at Second level. She won USDF all breed awards from Old/ISR at both Training and First Level.

http://www.donerailfarm.com/fling2003.html

[Hillside H Ranch]

The first mare I bred to my stallion was an Arab mare. That foal is now 4 years old and just going under saddle. He is proving to be an incredible riding horse. My 13 year daughter is riding him and he is just awesome. I already have people trying to buy him from us. I wish I could have repeated this cross, but the mare is now 22 and I don't want to risk breeding her again. I would do this cross again in a heartbeat. I will say, however, that you will probably want to go with the Polish Arab and not the Egyptian Arab if you are breeding for a sporthorse.

I've heard other people voice the same opinion on the Egyptian vs. Polish. As I don't know jack about Arabs, maybe you could educate me on why this seems to be the case?
We have some clients who have some Shagyas (a stallion and a couple of mares) and I have to say that is a cross that would maybe tempt me in the future!

[Dazednconfused]

I've been toying with this idea for quite some time. There are some really nice Arab mares in my area, and I think they would cross really well with Versace. How do I approach getting this to happen? And make that the offspring would be eligible to the half-arab classes? I need help!

Basically the only requirement for registration of a half arab is that the foal have one purebred, registered arabian parent. So if you want the foals for yourself, you should offer to lease the mare, breed to your stallion, and keep the offspring. If you simply want to get him bred to arab mares but don't want the offspring yourself you should advertise to Arabian mare owners - perhaps at a special discount or something of that nature. And use the various magazines - I personally believe that the association's magazine, the Modern Arabian Horse, would be the best place to advertise your boy for arabian mare owners. Because it goes out to everyone who is a member of the association.

I would be considering Frohwind, Rosenthal, or Ironman for arabian/wb crosses. And someday when I have the time and money to do so, I would love to try Sandro Hit or one of his sons on an arab mare. That would be very exciting!

[Dazednconfused]

I've heard other people voice the same opinion on the Egyptian vs. Polish. As I don't know jack about Arabs, maybe you could educate me on why this seems to be the case?
We have some clients who have some Shagyas (a stallion and a couple of mares) and I have to say that is a cross that would maybe tempt me in the future!

I don't know why people polarize the different types of the breed. There are like ten plus of them - polish, russian, spanish, egyptian, crabbet, CMK, and on and on. They all have good points and bad - strengths and weaknesses. Go for the good horse with a heritage of winning in some kind of athletic endeavor - regardless of where its parents are from (IMHO).

[Dazednconfused]

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1003195

I did a search for Frohwind offspring and found this guy.

That is one of the most winning sporthorses in our breed :) :D They lowered the price on him by quite a bit though, I wonder why...

[eggbutt]

We bred our full Egyptian Arabian mare to a really nice local Hano stallion 5 years ago. She's just now going well under saddle with her new owner & is showing that she received the best of both her sire and dam. She's a smaller, (15-3 & still growing) perfect AA dressage horse that also happens to like jumping. I think the arab brings a bit more physical flexibility, endurance and easier lateral movements while the WB brings the scope and power if you match them correctly.

I also believe that most of these crosses are being seen in the Arab show world rather than the open world. The half-arab classes are chock full of arab/wb crosses doing quite well and just beginning to come into the open ring.

Best of luck to you!

[eggbutt]

I don't know why people polarize the different types of the breed. There are like ten plus of them - polish, russian, spanish, egyptian, crabbet, CMK, and on and on. They all have good points and bad - strengths and weaknesses. Go for the good horse with a heritage of winning in some kind of athletic endeavor - regardless of where its parents are from (IMHO).


The Polish arabians that I have experience with are heavier boned than the full Egyptian arabians. I personally do see a difference in conformation, temperament and size of bone in the major bloodlines of arabian horses.

[frisky]

The first mare I bred to my stallion was an Arab mare. That foal is now 4 years old and just going under saddle. He is proving to be an incredible riding horse. My 13 year daughter is riding him and he is just awesome. I already have people trying to buy him from us. I wish I could have repeated this cross, but the mare is now 22 and I don't want to risk breeding her again. I would do this cross again in a heartbeat. I will say, however, that you will probably want to go with the Polish Arab and not the Egyptian Arab if you are breeding for a sporthorse.

PLEASE POST PICS!!!!!!!!

I think the arab/warmbloods look quite cool. I remember seeing an article about an arab/Donnerschlag cross years ago that was competing and doing well. There are a couple of arab/wb crosses in my area competing in dressage that I think are as cute as a button. They can be totally sporty-- athletic, but in a smaller frame-- when they come out well. Perfect for the adult ams. The registration posibilities as half-arabs make them competitive as show horses as well for many people. I also agree with an another poster that the engine and the canter on the warmblood needs to be strong and prepotent (along with all the other parts like the neck placement, etc.).

[Dazednconfused]

That is exactly what I said, eggbutt. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and there is good and bad in each 'type'. My preferences do not lean towards Egyptians myself but there have been several successful sporthorses from those lines. Personally, though I am a total pedigree freak, I prefer a good horse in front of me - the horse that can get the job done is the one I like - because of or despite his pedigree or what country his grandparents came from.

[tempichange]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of a G or W line, but I'm also looking at Idocus or Oliver. Not a huge fan of the traks, especially for what I've seen in my neck of the woods.

The reason why I'm not breeding purebred is because I don't like a lot of whats out there for purebreds. Yes, there is Aul Magic and OKW Entrigue, as well as a few english pleasure sires that are really nice. I just want something with more substance, and is geared for performance. I would love to breed to Lingh but... fat chance;)

And no I don't plan on breeding every year, I breed because I feel I can better the sport through my contribution, however, if things go south, I need to be able to sell the produce. It's kind of like creating a productive citizen in society.

[Astraled]

We have some clients who have some Shagyas (a stallion and a couple of mares) and I have to say that is a cross that would maybe tempt me in the future!

FYI, you will lose the half-arab market with a Shagya x Warmblood. Such a cross is not eligible to be shown at Arabian breed shows.


Tempichange, I think it's a shame you think you need to go outside the breed for substance or performance :(.

ETA: I don't mean *you* are shameful, just the situation. There must be something the Registry can do or something we can do as owners to showcase our best horses better. The only thing a person needs to go outside the breed for, IMO, is dilute coloring :D. Anyway, if you want to see some nice arabs, check out some of my past posts. I've listed a number of CMK stallions (of which Aul Magic is one) in some of the other threads on arabs this year.

[Hillside H Ranch]

FYI, you will lose the half-arab market with a Shagya x Warmblood. Such a cross is not eligible to be shown at Arabian breed shows.


Tempichange, I think it's a shame you think you need to go outside the breed for substance or performance :(.

ETA: I don't mean *you* are shameful, just the situation. There must be something the Registry can do or something we can do as owners to showcase our best horses better. The only thing a person needs to go outside the breed for, IMO, is dilute coloring :D. Anyway, if you want to see some nice arabs, check out some of my past posts. I've listed a number of CMK stallions (of which Aul Magic is one) in some of the other threads on arabs this year.

Yes, I know that the Shagyas are completely separate from the "rest" of the arabians. I'm not interested in the 1/2 Arab market, anyway, just commenting that I preferred the Shagyas.

[chemteach]

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1003195

I did a search for Frohwind offspring and found this guy.

He is a wonderful example of the Arab/Warmblood cross.

[Dawn J-L]

(snip)The reason why I'm not breeding purebred is because I don't like a lot of whats out there for purebreds. Yes, there is Aul Magic and OKW Entrigue, as well as a few english pleasure sires that are really nice. I just want something with more substance, and is geared for performance.(snip)


A lot of the best sport horse types are found outside of the AHA show system. You just have to poke around a little to find 'em. I've got my own little collection of 'em in my back yard....

[Dawn J-L]

He is a wonderful example of the Arab/Warmblood cross.

He sure is. :-) The dam is from Spanish lines--they are quite often exquisitely beautiful AND athletic.

[tempichange]

Tempichange, I think it's a shame you think you need to go outside the breed for substance or performance :(.

ETA: I don't mean *you* are shameful, just the situation. There must be something the Registry can do or something we can do as owners to showcase our best horses better. The only thing a person needs to go outside the breed for, IMO, is dilute coloring :D. Anyway, if you want to see some nice arabs, check out some of my past posts. I've listed a number of CMK stallions (of which Aul Magic is one) in some of the other threads on arabs this year.

LOL no offense taken. I was a member of AHA for many years, and even owned 1/2 arabs and competed with a BNT for three-quarters of a decade. I'm very familiar with the CMK crabbet line, and the polskis as well. I loved them both.

Coming from a position as a rider who trains and looks for performance and not pretty halter things, the registry needs to refocus or expand programs that promote actual sport horse stuff. While there has been an improvement, I just don't think, in comparison to what I get with the USDF, is satisfactory. Yeah, there's sweeps money, but in comparison to those twiggy halter things or the skedaddlebred wannabes? It's not even worth the nomination, imho.

I breed for performance, temperment and rideability. I compete mainly at USDF/EF shows, a vastly different atmosphere than that of the arabian ones (and trust me, I've been to Silver Rama and Nationals on multiple occasions as a spectator).

Would I compete arabian shows? Perhaps, but my main focus for this paticular potential baby is open high performance dressage. Very few arabian stallions have thrown that quality for open competition. However, it would be need to get a few of those nice rose garlands.

So I'm rather stuck, sport horse arabs are very popular now, however, most of them who stand in the breeding shed aren't really worth their salt for stud fee and don't really throw what I need when bred to this paticular style. Or do I go outside of the breed, to the verbands who are always cultivating new blood and promote thier offspring on an open competitive circuit and run the risk of being found out of *horror of horrors* that the foal is half ayrab ;)

I would much rather let the proof be in the puddin' at open shows.

[Dazednconfused]

A lot of the best sport horse types are found outside of the AHA show system. You just have to poke around a little to find 'em. I've got my own little collection of 'em in my back yard....

There are lots of wonderful examples of sporthorses in the ring now. And as far as promotion of the offspring goes it certainly doesn't hurt! :winkgrin:

[Renae]

May I butt in here for just a moment to ask if any of you have pics of your ADULT WB/Ayrab crosses? I have seen lots of babies but not many adults. There used to be an ATA stallion who is Arab/Trakehner cross.

This is my 4 year old Arabian/Dutch Harness Horse cross. She is by the Polish/Crabbet stallion Toi Soldier (now deceased) and out of a keur Dutch Harness Horse mare by Fabricius out of a Indiaan mare (Indiaan being a son of the grest Oregon who appears in many Harness Horse and Warmblood pedigrees). http://www.hawknestharnesshorses.com/newpage.html

These are some of my 2 year old Arabian/Dutch Harness Horse crosses:
http://www.hawknestharnesshorses.com/images/006_19A-1.JPG out of the same mare as the above horse
http://www.hawknestharnesshorses.com/images/006_020-1.JPG out of a ster mare that has already produced a National Top Ten English Pleasure Half-Arabian
http://www.hawknestharnesshorses.com/images/002_23A-12.JPG out of a mare that was a Regional Champion Weanling in Holland and then imported
http://www.hawknestharnesshorses.com/sitebuilder/images/017_08A-1-600x481.jpg out of a keur preferent prestatie mare who has produced 2 National Champion Harness Horses in Holland, several daughters and granddaughters on the Top 250 Harness Horse Broodmares list, and who is full sister to a Grand Prix DRessage Horse (Anneke Muilwijk's Atuur)

All four of the 2 year olds are sired by the Arabian stallion Meistermind, who is by Huckleberry Bey out of a Bask mare. He has only sired 50 foals, but of those 50 foals 46% have shown at the Class A level and 20% have won National Titles. As far as I know no one has shown any Meistemind foals in dressage, but the 4 I have are all beutfiul and have a great attitude towards working, no doubt they could go that way if that is where they were taken.

In fact I think the reason you don't see as many Arabs and Half-Arabs on the open circuits is its not that the horses don't have the talent, its just that they are overlooked/buyers don't know where to look. If you want to see a good cross section of what is available in the Arab or Half-Arab package and what kind of price you should be paying for it head to the next Addis Sale, which will be August 9-11 in Madison, WI at the Alliant Energy Center. There will be about 150-200 horses there to have a look see at.

As far as why AHA doesn't do more to promote sport horses (personally I think they do quit a bit, as much or more than many other breed registries) I would have to offer up the information that at this point and time the sport horse venues cost money for AHA and all the clubs to hold. In my area dressage typically gets enough entries to cover the cost for a show to hire the dressage judge and buy/rent a dressage ring and rent an extra ring at the facility to hold the class, but over fences classes can be iffy as to wether or not they will get enough entries to cover the cost of holding them, and on the national level Sport Horse Nationals is the only National Arabian Horse Show that does not make money. U.S. Nationals makes $972,000 annually and Youth Nationals also makes money.

[eggbutt]

I would love to breed to Lingh but... fat chance;)



Lingh's book has opened a bit more this year. If you're interested you should submit the mare info to Hassler Dressage and see what happens.

[Tawna24]

I have one arab mare I breed every year. She is approved MMB OLDna.

This is last years 1/2 arab, 1/4 ASB, 1/4 Dutch WB colt: (Mazarrati- on the left): http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/DAD2006.htm
Another: http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/MazTROT1.jpg This photo is UNBELIEVABLE. When I first saw it, I though it looked FAKE- almost like a carosel horse- put a pole through his back, and there you have it!! My friend caught the moment and was like WOW- what "gait" is THAT??? LOL When she sent me the photo, I was amazed at how suspended and articulated the joints are. Even though is is not "web worthy" It shows how well this guy can move. He is one of the best movers I have ever bred. Thing is, I don't specifically breed for the 1/2 arab world, and marketing him to that world is not something I have expertise at. Hence, this little guy is still sitting in my back yard, and will be gelded soon. I hope someone buys him that will do dressage with him.... he has so much potential. oh well...

Next ... This is her 07' colt by Stedinger (Saint Sando): http://goldenventurefarm.com/OthergvfFoals.htm

I love what I am getting out of the cross!!

[Dawn J-L]

(snip) If you want to see a good cross section of what is available in the Arab or Half-Arab package and what kind of price you should be paying for it head to the next Addis Sale, which will be August 9-11 in Madison, WI at the Alliant Energy Center. There will be about 150-200 horses there to have a look see at. (snip)

The Addis Sale may be a good representation of the general Arabian population, but I am pretty sure it's not the best place to go looking for SH types.

[FuelsterFarm]

One of my clients owns a crabbet that she bred to Leonidas. The foal is a more compact version of Leonidas and a definite improvement on the mare. My only complaint is that as a two year old he is still as small as a yearling. I don't expect that he will mature much over 15 hands, which seems to be a deterrent to potential buyers (the foal will likely never be sold) even in the HA market. His temperament and gaits are wonderful, and again an improvement on the mare.

Another client owns an Arabian x Oldenburg gelding (now 7) by Alternativ who while a bit on the smaller size at 15.3 is an incredible powerhouse of an athlete, with a more refined head.

I personally like the crosses, but agree with the others who have stated the feeling that potential buyers come from the Arabian world and not the WB one.

[Renae]

The Addis Sale may be a good representation of the general Arabian population, but I am pretty sure it's not the best place to go looking for SH types.

You never know what you'll find ;) I sold a gelding at that sale last year that is doing training level dressage with an 11 year old girl. Six year old black purebred Arabian gelding, sound, broke and shown in western pleasure and country english pleasure by me, goes in any sort of bridle you want to put in him (bosal, snaffle, western show curb, full bridle) and they paid $3800 for him. Most of the horses will probably be presented as saddle seat horses as that is what brings the most money but their are bargains to be had for smart people.

[enjoytheride]

This is the mare I ride, she is very green in the show pictures (she was upset about being alone), and out of shape in the confo ones. She is an arab hanovarian cross, I do not know what the breeding of the hano is.

She can be very hot, but is incredibly well balanced and very athletic over fences. She has a very flat kneed trot, but has a good shoulder, and lots of step at the canter.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/son_ya98/album/576460762379159803

[Fairview Horse Center]

This is a photo of a Nevada filly, out of an Arabian mare

[Freebird!]

A good friend of mine bred her Arabian mare - she was actually a large pony - to the Hanoverian stallion Gold Luck. The resulting filly, Galadria was beautiful. The dam, Nari's Beauty was at the time the first Arabian to be approved for the Hann. Mare book.

[shaft0463]

ive only seen one arab/WB and my god what a nice stallion. if you didnt look at his head you would have sworn he was full WB. he was out of a WB mare by an arab stallion though. i think he ended up being 16.3h.

i know you are also interested in lusitanos from a prior convo with you, and JP has crossed one of his stallions in particular with arab mares. one of them (xena star) is for sale on his site. she is my mares current pasture buddy, and she is about the friendliest thing on the face of the earth. i can hardly catch my mare, who comes to the gate begging for attention, because xena wants to come in too :)

you might take a look at one of his stallions, especially if the foal is one for you to keep.

[tri]

I think part of the problem with determining the market of such crosses is some of the blanket statements made by some. When a poster states that the horse is a great riding horse or wonderful horse or a powerhouse horse but then the horse hasn't done anything or is being ridden around the trails by a 12 year old, many start to discount what is being said. IMHO, being ridden at low levels of dressage or the fact that a 12 year old loves and can ride the horse doesn't make it a "wonderful riding horse". That is just my perspective, I realize and may not be the perspective of others. But most people who BREED horses aren't breeding for that kind of horse nor do they want to breed something that they can only get $3800 and only after the horse gets well into riding age with training.

It would be more helpful to understanding the market if more posters did what one or two of the you guys did, which was to state the age of the horse, level that the horse is competing at and a price range that the horse was sold.

[Tazzie]

I recently sold an Arab/Old, you can see her pedigree here:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/future+glamour+girl

and photos (not the best though) here:

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d27/_GiGi_/Future%20Glamour%20Girl/

Gigi was fantastically athletic and loved to jump and had a very natural frame. She is currently with a hunter/jumper trainer in PA. I loved her build and her personality, sadly she was more talented than I was so I worked hard to place her in a proper home. The trainer she is with now will sell her on but hopefully it will be to somebody in the hunter/jumper world that will utilize her. She was VERY fancy to look at, I'll always miss her. I thought the combination of Arab & warmblood was a wonderful combination.

[Doodle]

:confused: Isn't this cross what came to be known as the THOROUGHBRED?:lol:

[tempichange]

So I'm having much fun looking at the eye candy. Thank you to everyone who has volunteered High Point Hannos and Frohwind. I've looked into them and I have information being sent along.

Shaft- the reason why I haven't looked at Lusitanos is because the mare would not complement that type of stallion. While I'm interested in eventually breeding/owning/competing with that paticular breed, I need to find an individual that would go with this mare, none of the immediate stallions I like/admire would do that.

[mairzeadoats]

IMHO, being ridden at low levels of dressage or the fact that a 12 year old loves and can ride the horse doesn't make it a "wonderful riding horse".

I don't know, Tri. A horse that at age 5 was western/country pleasure is by age 6 retrained to compete in dressage with a 12 year old...tells me the horse is very rideable/trainable and has plenty of time to move up the levels if he also has the athletic ability. Especially as arabs are slower to mature and last a long time, esp. compared to many other breeds.

On the other hand, I had the pleasure of seeing the scores of a now 5 year old, R-line elite hanoverian mare. As a 3 year old, the seller pulled her off the market before she was started (right when I called to confirm appt time and driving directions, after I'd booked travel ~1000 miles to see her) with the intention of sending her out for pro training and raising her price "a lot."

At 5 years old, $30K, with 2 years of top-notch professional training sunk into her (I know where she went for training and I'd bet they paid as much for her training as they finally sold her for!) she scored all of 55% and 60% at training level with her new owner. My rescue arab gelding -- trained by moi -- got those same scores his 1st time out...except at 1st level. And he made it to schooling FEI (not showing due to my lack of $$, not his lack of ability).

So it may not favor breeders to have lower-cost horses that can compete head-to-head against the high-priced imported lines, but it sure does help the buyers! :D

[shaft0463]

i wish i could find pics or an update on the stallion i knew. he sold for $15k as a VERY green-broke 4-yo or 5-yo if I remember correctly. then his owner turned him out in a frozen roundpen, where he proceeded to take off, slip (shod on all 4), and break his P3. after about a year off and special shoes, I know he was again sound and being worked under saddle, but then I lost track of him. His name was L'Imbrie, by the Arab stallion Lasodo, and out of a WB mare (dont remember which breed specifically). Last I knew he was in Middle TN.

but thats been probably 3 years since i heard anything about him. i just remember being very impressed by him as a youngster.

[Renae]

Le Imbrie+ by Lasodo+// has a fairly extensive record in sport horse in hand on the Arab circuit. No under saddle record. His dam is listed as Imbrie, a Swedish Warmblood (I think SWA is Swedish Warmblood? Please correct me if I'm wrong and maybe it is Swiss Warmblood instead or soemthing).

And the horse I mentioned above I didn't breed myself, but came along in the middle of his training. He had been shown on the National level as a junior western pleasure horse, but like many horses by the time he was aged was a little different horse than he had been as a colt, so I moved him up to country english pleasure. Then the owner wanted him sold immediatly, so he went to the sale and his new owners did get a decent deal. And I don't think having a horse that an 11 year old girl can show to a 67.5% at training level in the horse's first dressage test ever is a bad thing at all :) All useful horses are good horses, and as a breeder I should hope every horse I produce is useful for something. It just points out the Arab/Half-Arab market is a buyers market. There are lots of quality horses available, especially if one is good at evaluating horses quickly and not afraid to buy at auction. I also know of someone who bought an Arabian at the Addis sale, a 2 year old, and the horse is now 6, winning at training level eventing and has been evaluated by top level eventing people as Advanced level material. And for the seller, while you may not get the price you had hoped for, the active sales outlet provides away to disperse stock when you come to the point of the horse must go. The Top Sellers at these sales will be in the $40k+ range, but those horses are almost always saddle seat horses (the high seller at the sale I attended last yer was $85k for a 2 year old purebred filly).

[shaft0463]

interesting on the no u/s for imbrie. i wonder what ever became of him. ill have to ask around and see if i can find anythign out about him. i know his owner sold her other horse, another half-arab by lasodo because i know that horse is scoring in the mid 70's at 1st level with a jr/yr. his dam was a racking or ssh though, not WB.

[tri]

Oh no, I definately don't think that a horse an 11 year old can ride to good scores in the dressage ring is a "bad" thing. (btw, was it a USDF event or local dressage show? There is a big difference)

Imho, it is already very hard for breeders to sell their stock without taking a bath when you facter in what many breeders pay for stud fees, vet costs, feeding, not to mention the problem so many on this forum complain regarding getting their stock under saddle and in the show ring. Then there is the whole cost of inspections, DNA typing, membership fees, 100 day stallion testing, blah blah blah and that is with FEI level young prospects that sell for $20,00 and up (hopefully way up). We try to prove the merits of these horses by tracking (as best we can with the system we have) them at the rated level shows and we want them to move more and more into the recognized events - Young Jumpers, Markel, Young Event Horse, IHF, etc. I just don't think breeding for the $3800 horse in a market that is even more of a buyers' market than the one we are currently in will prove to be the great new path to take.

But if there starts to be a good many half arabs exceling in the YJC, IHF, Markel and other big competitive events and selling for significant prices, I'll definately listen.

[Renae]

It was at a USDF event. I also sold a purebred Arabian broodmare for $20,000 last year (show horse type not sport horse) and as I said the $3800 horse was a rush sale because the owner wanted the horse sold immediatly. That horse has several 3/4 siblings who are national champions in various arab events (same dam, half-brother sires) and I have no doubt he'll take his new owner as far as she is willing to work to go. I think with the availability of a lot of bang for the buck at this point and time in the Arab/half-arab sport horse type you will start to see more of these horses simply because the buyer has access to them.

Just curious if you took your horses to public auction in say a month what do you think they could get? I've looked at results from some of the sport horse sales in the United States and they are not terribly impressive, the Arab and Saddlebred sales usually have higher high sellers, higher averages, and lowers %s of outs and RNAs.

[tri]

Well, look at the horse by Frohwind that Oakstable posted the link from Dreamhorse. The horse is stated as a numerous NATIONAL CHAMPION, Prix St George horse, high point horse of the year.....the horse is selling for $35,000. What do you think a warmblood hunter would go for that was a "National Champion" equivalent? I bet for a lot more than $35,000. Heck, I've seen young unstarted horses that were just in the top ten in the country at their inspection go for more than that.

Look, I'm not trying to be derogatory regarding the cross, just realistic in expectations of the market with performance and price.

[jlmckinley]

I bred my arab event mare to a danish wb that complimented her and the result is a nice conformed (in my barnblind opinion) larger version of her that is my horse of a lifetime. We sold one arab-wb cross by Rienzi (AHS) as a 4 y.o. out of an egyptian mare to the open jr. hunter market for good money and fairly quickly - it was two years ago so the market may have been different but she sold in just a few months. We have a yearling out of same egyptian mare by Feuertanzer that we are holding onto.

That is my limited experience. I personally love the cross but just as any other breed or cross, it may not be everyones cup of tea.

Caslan - arabian dam -
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2449089450092273777PIVDkQ
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2975333630092273777TyvNae

Perrier: danish wb - arab 1st level:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2331236120092273777upXCPH
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2205527330092273777HJovJX

[Dazednconfused]

Well, look at the horse by Frohwind that Oakstable posted the link from Dreamhorse. The horse is stated as a numerous NATIONAL CHAMPION, Prix St George horse, high point horse of the year.....the horse is selling for $35,000. What do you think a warmblood hunter would go for that was a "National Champion" equivalent? I bet for a lot more than $35,000. Heck, I've seen young unstarted horses that were just in the top ten in the country at their inspection go for more than that.

Look, I'm not trying to be derogatory regarding the cross, just realistic in expectations of the market with performance and price.

The horse is also older. As I said he was actually for sale for considerably more at one point (think 2 1/2 times the current price).

[mairzeadoats]

I could be mistaken, but I think the entire market is suffering and shifting right now, and for the long term.


Well, look at the horse by Frohwind that Oakstable posted the link from Dreamhorse. The horse is stated as a numerous NATIONAL CHAMPION, Prix St George horse, high point horse of the year.....the horse is selling for $35,000. What do you think a warmblood hunter would go for that was a "National Champion" equivalent? I bet for a lot more than $35,000. .

3 years ago I was 2nd in line to buy a successful, 11 year old Prix St. George hanoverian gelding schooling GP for $35K. What they didn't mention in the ad was 1. owner was shipping out to Iraq, so price was low for a quick sale, 2. horse had ulcers, so high maintenance 3. horse was very pushy and tough under saddle, 4. horse was very pushy and tough from the ground.

Within the same few months of that deal, I saw multiple FEI horses being offered around the same price. Similar stories with each...higher-maintenance horse, owner in a run of bad luck, must sell quickly in very soft market to solve cash flow problem or to lose maintenance costs or to fight dread disease or whatever.


Heck, I've seen young unstarted horses that were just in the top ten in the country at their inspection go for more than that..

A couple years ago I turned down a long yearling that was #5 dutch warmblood in the country at her baby inspection, on market for $12K. She just wasn't turning out that great plus she had exceptionally tiny, very upright front feet on very upright pasterns -- looked very clubby to me.

Just a couple weeks ago I saw a sound, sweet and attractive 3 year old Weltmeyer/Bolero mare offered for<10K/negotiable. Nothing wrong with the horse, but the owner unexpectedly died and left multiple horses to the trainer. The trainer, in an area suffering severe drought, could barely afford hay for her own horses, never mind any extras, so had to sell asap while she could still keep them in good health and saleable.

Also not that long ago COTH saw one of its own searching for a lovely homebred warmblood that it appears was increasingly dumped "down the river" and sadly appears to have ended up at the killer.

My point being that increasingly I'm seeing warmbloods offered at prices that were unheard of not too long ago. As people's lives continue to be turned upside down, even the warmblood owners are finding themselves forced to sell quickly. And in a shrinking horse market and a crappy economy that means bargains.


Look, I'm not trying to be derogatory regarding the cross, just realistic in expectations of the market with performance and price..

Realistically, after reading this board for a couple years I've concluded the only way to make money breeding any horse is to be phenomenally wealthy and wrap the breeding program inside a real business, to serve as a nice tax write-off :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, for the few horses that sell for phenomenal prices in any given breed or discipline, there are hundreds or thousands that don't get those prices, and an equal few that end up as bargains for somebody due to unforeseen changes in circumstances.

[exvet]

My point being that increasingly I'm seeing warmbloods offered at prices that were unheard of not too long ago. As people's lives continue to be turned upside down, even the warmblood owners are finding themselves forced to sell quickly. And in a shrinking horse market and a crappy economy that means bargains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tri
Look, I'm not trying to be derogatory regarding the cross, just realistic in expectations of the market with performance and price..

Realistically, after reading this board for a couple years I've concluded the only way to make money breeding any horse is to be phenomenally wealthy and wrap the breeding program inside a real business, to serve as a nice tax write-off

Seriously, for the few horses that sell for phenomenal prices in any given breed or discipline, there are hundreds or thousands that don't get those prices, and an equal few that end up as bargains for somebody due to unforeseen changes in circumstances.

So, true and if we just go back and take a look starting in the 60's, haven't you described the ebb and flow of the Arabian market to a "T"? I too think we're heading into another series of major downsizing, re-inventing ourselves, or all-in-all sell outs of many in the industry. I was almost a casualty of the ebbing tide in the late 80's (resident vet at a major arab farm) and having owned and shown, albeit only dressage, at the Arab shows over the years it just seems that we are heading for more of the same. While I've seen some wonderful crosses, I agree with those who've pointed out that the major market for such crosses continues to be the Arab world. If the OP is looking to produce/buy for a personal mount, I think she could be very happy with the cross but for future business/profitable ventures.......well as we all know there needs to be a lot of money in the beginning in order to end up with anything in the end.

[dressagejudy]

Well, it must be that I like the arab/WB cross because I bought a yearling two years ago. However, my boy is 1/4 arab and 3/4 Trakehner. (I personally would probably stay away from the 1/2 arab crosses just because I owned a 7/8 arab and he was spooky until the day he died.) He was allowed in the section D (I think) book of the ATA so if I had wanted to present him for inspection, I could have. I didn't want a stallion, but a good FEI level dressage horse. Since he just turned 3, it will be a few years before I know if I got what I wanted! His sire is Feuertanzer and there a photos of lots of arab/Feuertanzer crosses on his website.

Judy Gargano

[tri]

Wholeheartedly agree.

There are many who have had their special arab/wb cross that they absolutely love. There is nothing wrong with that and really, that is what it is all about for most here in the U.S.

There will always be fire sales no matter what the breeding is. People have problems and tragedies in their lives. The only point I'm making is that if you have two horses of equal soundness, equal training, equal circumstances and one is a wb (w/o the arab close up) and one is from an arab parent, imho, the one without arab close up will sell for more and easier than the other in the non arab sporthorse markets. (is that enough disclaimer?)

I do see a trend as well with sporthorses in general. I believe many are getting fed up with the excessive fees it takes to get warmbloods inspected and approved. Many are opting out of the stallion approval process and there seems to be a realization setting in that showing the horse makes for a more profitable, easier to sell horse than one that is just inspected. In other words, after the horse is shown, it doesn't matter about the inspection/approval so much and if you have one that is just inspected, you probably will probably then have to show it too to get it sold.

[Dawn J-L]

(snip) (I personally would probably stay away from the 1/2 arab crosses just because I owned a 7/8 arab and he was spooky until the day he died.) (snip)

By that reasoning, I should stay away from all KWPN horses because the one I owned was the most mean tempered (aggressive dominant--several years after I sold him, he paralyzed his pro-rider when he had a fit of temper one day) horse I've encountered in my 30+ years with horses.

Judging an entire breed by a single individual (or even a small subset of individuals) is pretty unfair. There are certainly Arabs who are NOT spooky. In fact, the primary reason I decided to get into Arab sport horses was (on top of their athletic ability) because of the wonderful people pleasing and sensible temperaments of the ones I had ridden. I have certainly encountered some Arabs who were wingnuts, but I've also encountered WB's and QH's that were similarly spooky. It's silly to judge an entire breed (particularly a diverse one) by a single example.

[Dawn J-L]

Wholeheartedly agree.

There are many who have had their special arab/wb cross that they absolutely love. There is nothing wrong with that and really, that is what it is all about for most here in the U.S.

(snip) The only point I'm making is that if you have two horses of equal soundness, equal training, equal circumstances and one is a wb (w/o the arab close up) and one is from an arab parent, imho, the one without arab close up will sell for more and easier than the other in the non arab sporthorse markets. (is that enough disclaimer?)(snip)

It's also possible that the good Arab/WB crosses will become more desirable over the next decade IF they prove themselves in competition. Smaller, handier mounts ARE becoming more desirable. The sport pony market is another growing area where these Arab crosses may be able to find a place with some value. But we've got to use our best sport horses, not just the "more like a sport horse than a main ring show horse" horses.

[exvet]

The sport pony market is another growing area where these Arab crosses may be able to find a place with some value. But we've got to use our best sport horses, not just the "more like a sport horse than a main ring show horse" horses.

Just curious and I hope the OP doesn't mind, since we both have dealt with the same pony breed as well as Arabs; but, could you better define or give a few (more please) examples of appropriate or "best" sport horses within the breed. I have a lovely crabbet bred mare who I am hoping to eventually use for breeding sport ponies. She is all of 14 hands, huge hip, lovely top line and really, really nice gaits. I do plan to use her to breed to my stallion (welsh) but also am considering breeding her to one of the german riding pony stallions that havs been recently imported because I think I might have a shot at a really nice sport pony with such a cross. Since I'm breeding for myself and family I'm not overly concerned with marketability as I plan to continue in the Arab and pony dressage world via welsh and the half-breds of both for some time to come (well until I can no longer hoist myself into the saddle and stay there) but I am always interested in what others' opinions are in this regard because there is SOOOO much variability within the Arab breed let alone what one might cross out to. TIA (and thanks to Kelly too, sorry don't really intend to hijack ;)

[tempichange]

Realistically, after reading this board for a couple years I've concluded the only way to make money breeding any horse is to be phenomenally wealthy and wrap the breeding program inside a real business, to serve as a nice tax write-off :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, for the few horses that sell for phenomenal prices in any given breed or discipline, there are hundreds or thousands that don't get those prices, and an equal few that end up as bargains for somebody due to unforeseen changes in circumstances.

I honestly do not want to go into it as a business. I have no business making it into a full time career. I have a ton of respect for those who can produce, year after year, a horse that is a wanted, successful and productive citizen in a competitive enviornment. Whether it be an FEI GP horse or a Training level AA mount.

My goal with this paticular cross is to have a viable canditate for FEI young horse and for the younger years a DAD-quality candidate. But above all, I want to produce an individual who I'm going to enjoy and will be a productive member of my team.

However, if things get rough and I have to bail out, I want the horse to be wanted somewhere else, whether it be for someone to enjoy or take them places. It's my solution to the down the river senario.

[tempichange]

[I]
(and thanks to Kelly too, sorry don't really intend to hijack ;)

Hijack away;) I don't mind either, I'm considering some Wiser Erms fellows in there. But since she's petite 14.1 hands and for what I was breeding for (see above), I thought I'd look at the bigger boys before looking at the wee guys.

[Cold Spring Farm]

Hey Tempi:

Just to see some interesting and lovely crosses, you might want to check out this site http://www.fieryrunfarm.com/

This lady breeds some lovely GOV half-arabs, and if you go to her "Oldenburg," "For Sale" and "Sold" tabs you will see a variety of nice crosses.

As far as stallions, another one who has produced well on Arab mares and consistently outproduces himself, is Sempatico. I have two fillies from him (unfortunately, not HA -- they are out of a German Hanoverian mare) and they are phenomenal movers with great temperments. I would like to use him on one of my Arab mares at tomse point..... Anyhow == he's had a number of HA babies go premium, as well.

Good luck in your search! I switched back to Arabs from WBs (although obviously still have a few WBs!) because to me, they are just a much more fun ride, lower maintenance and they are always as happy to see me as I am to see them! I'm at that place in my life where those attributes are an increasingly important part of the equation! Will be curious to hear who you pick!

[Dazednconfused]

The sport pony market is another growing area where these Arab crosses may be able to find a place with some value. But we've got to use our best sport horses, not just the "more like a sport horse than a main ring show horse" horses.

Just curious and I hope the OP doesn't mind, since we both have dealt with the same pony breed as well as Arabs; but, could you better define or give a few (more please) examples of appropriate or "best" sport horses within the breed. I have a lovely crabbet bred mare who I am hoping to eventually use for breeding sport ponies. She is all of 14 hands, huge hip, lovely top line and really, really nice gaits. I do plan to use her to breed to my stallion (welsh) but also am considering breeding her to one of the german riding pony stallions that havs been recently imported because I think I might have a shot at a really nice sport pony with such a cross. Since I'm breeding for myself and family I'm not overly concerned with marketability as I plan to continue in the Arab and pony dressage world via welsh and the half-breds of both for some time to come (well until I can no longer hoist myself into the saddle and stay there) but I am always interested in what others' opinions are in this regard because there is SOOOO much variability within the Arab breed let alone what one might cross out to. TIA (and thanks to Kelly too, sorry don't really intend to hijack ;)

There really is so much variability in the breed. It sounds like you're interested in dressage so I would probably look at OKW Entrigue. Aul Magic might be another. Magic Domino. There are a nice group of primarily Russian stallions in FL that are phenomenal and siring some impressive dressage horses. I think a GRP/DRP type cross with an arab would be really interesting. They already use a considerable amount of arabian blood so the matching would not be completely out of character.

[Adagio]

- Approved for Trakehner, ZSAA (Arabian Sporthorse), Oldenburg
- qualified for Bundeschampionat Eventing in 2006
- 70 day test Neustadt/Dosse; Winner of the Projekt Nurmi e.V. field test for young event horses as a 4 yr old (overall 83%). Wins and placings in dressage, show jumping and eventing as a 4-6 yr old with scores up to 90%
- dam Bagheerah ox is a Russian Arabian mare sire Friedensfürst

http://www.trak-sires-international.com/stallions/brioni.html
bloodline info

http://www.trak-sires-international.com/stallions/brioni2.html
pictures of the stallion and several foals...

http://www.altmarkhof.com/Stallions.html
the link above had video clip jumping and dressage.

[hluing]

I have been reading this thread with interest and now that GRP's are mentioned I will jump in. I just bred a Weser-Ems filly by Highlife's Bodyguard out of an Arabian dam that is MMB with Weser-Ems and has previously had a premium foal with them. Actually through the COTH I also recently learned more about my mare...she is a CMK (1/2 Davenport) Arabian...14hh and wonderful dressage type movement...really a lovely mare. The filly was a bit early at 321 days and is only 2 weeks old today but is already amazing! Stunningly beautiful and the best trot I have seen to date on a 2 week old baby (including all my other GRP's and WB's). So, granted it is early...but this is a very viable cross. You can see her on my website...her name is Laurel. A couple years ago there was a Weser-Ems colt(by Luxus Pur) born in Florida out of an Arabian mare that the judges loved so much they invited him to be shipped back to Germany for the Elite Auction. When I was in Germany I saw many GRP's with Arabian on thier pedigree...in fact, closer to home, the GRP stallion Makuba has significant Arabian in his bloodlines. I hope we see more of this type of breeidng in GRP's in the US.

[Perfect Pony]

This is an interesting thread! Growing up I had a half arab that was wonderful. I also rode with a top arab sporthorse trainer, who had some of the very first arab/wb crosses in the US (in the mid-80s). She had many, many national championships in hunters, jumpers and dressage.

When I returned to riding in my 30s I searched like mad for a nice arab/wb cross. I found one very nice gelding but he was well above my budget. I could not even find one, and when I did they were expensive.

Now I own a purebred Hanoverian who some people think is a half arab (because of her size and head). IMO a really nice half arab is one of the nicest horses around, absolutely LOVE the crosses. They are healthy, substantial, typically very sound horses that often have above average movement and rideability, just enough fire to be fun. If I were breeding for myself I think it would be such a lovely cross.

[tri]

"Originally Posted by exvet
The sport pony market is another growing area"

Personally, I'd like to see some hard data to support that assumption. What exactly is the market for breeding sport ponies? I know it is being widely promoted.....with breeders. And breeders are somewhat buying some stock. But those of you that are breeding "sport ponies" (versus the traditional welsh, welshx driving and hunter ponies), who are your buyers? Are you selling your stock to buyers other than other breeders who are thinking of jumping in the game? What kinds of prices are you getting for your foals, yearlings, 2 year olds?

I know there are riders & trainers that will buy young promising hunter type ponies but how is the non hunter "sport" pony selling? And how does infusing half arab into the equation make it more or less appealing to those buyers?

[exvet]

Originally Posted by exvet
The sport pony market is another growing area"

Sorry but I didn't originally state that...I was reposting it as a quote of another poster and wanted some additional information regarding which bloodlines or more importantly which type of Arab she felt is best suited for the pony market. I for one have no delusions regarding the current market whether they be arabs, sport horses or sport ponies, having been showing dressage "ponies" and arabs for quite a while - of course only as a lowly AA who does it to trip her own trigger not for profit :yes:

I do own a stallion (not Arab) and a few mares (only 1 Arab). I buy/breed for myself and my family as already stated in my previous post. So as stated I did not make the assumption and also question the validity/accuracy to be honest - and have many times in the past. I do this purely as a hobby and a way to give my husband an ulcer. Though I've seen a few more riding ponies in dressage around here, currently 3, count'em 3 warmblood riding ponies of one registry or another, I don't see a huge influx yet; and if you count my kid and what I bring to the shows we typically equal or out number the total of the other pony riders even if you lump the Jrs, AA's, and open together. That may change and I hope it does but I don't see a ton of people in my locale clamoring for them. Although you do have to realize that I'm part of the white trash crowd - even so, the majority of "my" crowd want 16 hands or greater and/or can't afford the warmblood ponies that are offered locally especially when you consider the one that is for sale for $35,000. He's lovely and talented but.......

However, to answer your question in terms of infusing Arab into the mix - well if I didn't know better I would hope that being 1/2 arab might open up the market a bit. BUT and that's a bit butt ;) realistically if it measures "pony" you actually limit the market in the Arab world quite a bit - at least that's been my experience. If I breed my arab mare, regardless as to whether it's to my stallion or one of the warmblood pony stallions, the foal would be for me or one of my children. Sorry to confuse anyone...I'm just looking for information to make my endeavor more satisfactory not necessarily profitable.

[Dalriada]

A friend's breeding program spanning over 25 years has involved crossing Arabian mares with the best young warmblood stallions.

She had several foals by Peron, Witlea and Rio Grande (RIP).

All were lovely animals. I tried buying the Witlea gelding at 3 days old but he had already been sold. He ended up being 16.3hh and a phenominal open jumper.

The Rio's were built in their sire's image.

The breeder has since passed on and all the warmblood crosses have excelled in open sport discipline and in the Half-Arabian rings.

[ljshorses]

A friend's breeding program spanning over 25 years has involved crossing Arabian mares with the best young warmblood stallions.

She had several foals by Peron, Witlea and Rio Grande (RIP).

All were lovely animals. I tried buying the Witlea gelding at 3 days old but he had already been sold. He ended up being 16.3hh and a phenominal open jumper.

The Rio's were built in their sire's image.

The breeder has since passed on and all the warmblood crosses have excelled in open sport discipline and in the Half-Arabian rings.


I think many can excell at the upper levels if the breeder is careful of the cross, but that goes with all breeding doesn't it? What the above breeder did was choose carefully and successfully. There is a market for these crosses and I have successfully sold these crosses. I think the money is there if you don't plan to get rich, but again isn't that the same for all breeding? The few Arab/Warmblood crosses I produced and were between weanling and yearling age sold between $5000 and $7000. But I have sold Warmbloods and Warmblood/TB crosses for the same, so I don't think that is bad. The few upper level prospects that I bred that were Warmbloods sold between the $8000 and $10000 range so we are not talking huge differences in prices. In fact the only reason why the upper level prospects sold for more is to cover the increased stud fees, so if you don't pay a huge stud fee and the Arab/Warmblood match is a good one, the profit is the same. And who's to say they don't end up being upper level horses anyway and so therefore the buyer gets a bit of a break and the breeder makes the same,hmmm. Doesn't sound like a bad thing market wise to me.

What am I missing? Sure under saddle horses bring more and the Warmbloods under saddle may bring much more than the Arab/Warmbloods under saddle but with it comes more risk. The longer you keep a horse the more chance you have of something happening. My vet just the other day said "why aren't people breeding more Arab/Warmblood crosses for people like me"? She is on the small side, older adult and wants to continue competeing in dressage and eventing. She doesn't want a 17h horse anymore because that is far from the ground and she looks fine on a smaller one. If the cross is done right it should be similiar to the TB/Warmblood cross just smaller. You add a little sensitivity and heat as well as responsiveness to a more sensible larger boned one...of course these are generalizations and that is why the cross must be carefully made. Some warmblood stallions these days look all TB so the Warmblood half is no less important.

[Tamara in TN]

I think many can excell at the upper levels if the breeder is careful of the cross, but that goes with all breeding doesn't it? .

and all the planning and praying and pedigree-ing in the world won't matter if a dipshit trainer/owner/rider ruins your horse :no: and there are very few people who "get on" with arabs...

Tamara in TN

[Renae]

there are very few people who "get on" with arabs...


Yep, only 46,000 of them (current AHA membership) :rolleyes:

[ljshorses]

and all the planning and praying and pedigree-ing in the world won't matter if a dipshit trainer/owner/rider ruins your horse :no: and there are very few people who "get on" with arabs...

Tamara in TN


Not sure what you mean by "get on" with arabs.... but I have trained many, many different breeds and I find them for the most part (and this again is a generalization and there are exceptions as with all breeds) sensitive, intelligent and high energy...sounds like a lot of TBs too (although some Tbs tend not to be heavy on the intelligence but again that's a generalization and not true of all)and I have found many TBs to be the same so not sure what there is to get on with but I personally like a responsive horse that listens to my aids and doesn't require whip and spurs to move forward. That's why in general I prefer the TB/Warmblood and Arab/Warmblood crosses. There are Warmblood breeds with a lot more "go" to them though, such as Trakehner and Westphalian, but interestingly they have more "hot" blood up close so no surprise there.

[Renae]

Also to point out- When you have a Half-Arabian you double the amount of shows you can attend and you also can get a horse that is enrolled in the Breeder's Sweepstakes that is eligible for thousands of dollars of prize money annually at all levels of showing from local through national, especially when shown by an Amateur Owner as most of the classes that pay Breeder's Sweepstakes prize money are amateur owners classes.

[tri]

'Yep, only 46,000 of them (current AHA membership) "

Yeah, so great if you are going to stay on the arab circuit. Maybe we should just chuck the USDF, hunter markets, jumpers, eventing, all FEI events, forget about the Olympics and World Cup? What World Cup.

[mairzeadoats]

'Yep, only 46,000 of them (current AHA membership) "

Yeah, so great if you are going to stay on the arab circuit. Maybe we should just chuck the USDF, hunter markets, jumpers, eventing, all FEI events, forget about the Olympics and World Cup? What World Cup.

Huh?

[Renae]

'Yep, only 46,000 of them (current AHA membership) "

Yeah, so great if you are going to stay on the arab circuit. Maybe we should just chuck the USDF, hunter markets, jumpers, eventing, all FEI events, forget about the Olympics and World Cup? What World Cup.

How many Americans show on the international level? How many Americans are amateur owners showing at the local regional level? Whats the bigger market?

With a Half-Arab you can show either circuit, with a warmblood you are stuck on the open circuit.

[Renae]

Also would like to know how many Arabians and Half-Arabians you have owned and/or bred tri? When did you become an expert on this breed, too?

[ljshorses]

How many Americans show on the international level? How many Americans are amateur owners showing at the local regional level? Whats the bigger market?

With a Half-Arab you can show either circuit, with a warmblood you are stuck on the open circuit.


Too true!!! My half Arabs are being shown both on the arab circuit and open shows...I obviously feel tri does not know what he/she is talking about. A good horse is a good horse and to disparage a breed without knowing facts is harsh. As I said and will always say, every breed has exceptions. I have seen crazy Hanoverians and sweet, honest Appaloosas. There are many Arabs out there and many different strains so to blanket them so harshly is ridiculous. I admit not all are suited for dressage or jumping but some are. Not all Hanoverians are suited for dressage either. I just started one today that screams hunter and that is fine. The horse and it's abilities and training decide the discipline not the breed.

[rcloisonne]

Sorry if this has been posted before but this WB breeder seems to think the Arab/WB cross is a good thing and is offering free booking fees to purebred Arab mares. The Arab/Rosanthal filly offered for sale is fabulous and her asking price of $18,000 is comparable to the best of the full warmblood yearlings offered:

http://www.hphanoverians.com/

[tri]

No Renae, we all leave it to YOU to be the expert on EVERYTHING.

And when and where did I ever disparage the whole breed of arabians?? BTW, my aunt is an international arabian judge and has been for many years. You might even say, I grew up with them.

"The Arab/Rosanthal filly offered for sale is fabulous and her asking price of $18,000 is comparable to the best of the full warmblood yearlings offered:"

Yes, that is comparable and it is nice to have someone actually point to real situations and facts instead of just getting in a huff. Hmmm, real market analysis! Wow! And to think we could just go on gossip and "because I want it to be feelings" instead!

[Dazednconfused]

No Renae, we all leave it to YOU to be the expert on EVERYTHING.

And when and where did I ever disparage the whole breed of arabians?? BTW, my aunt is an international arabian judge and has been for many years. You might even say, I grew up with them.

"The Arab/Rosanthal filly offered for sale is fabulous and her asking price of $18,000 is comparable to the best of the full warmblood yearlings offered:"

Yes, that is comparable and it is nice to have someone actually point to real situations and facts instead of just getting in a huff. Hmmm, real market analysis! Wow! And to think we could just go on gossip and "because I want it to be feelings" instead!

Is someone holding a knife to your throat to breed these crosses, or are you just trying to be a jerk about it? Obviously people find it to be a viable cross. Luckily nobody has to buy them - and the market will determine if they are worth breeding...

[Tamara in TN]

Yep, only 46,000 of them (current AHA membership) :rolleyes:


it is not the people who "own" an arab but rather those that ride every day in an exacting,precision filled sport like dressagy....it is one thing to ride a horse with a 6 second delay from seat to hand who says " oh.....okeeee....I can get...ready to do....that" and then does <x>

it is quite another to have a horse with a 2 second delay from seat to hand who says "yepdoneitfinishedheardyouletsmoveon!!!!!!!!" :winkgrin:

I don't have any great interest in dressage...I leave that to others and the most technical thing I care about is reining....but I can and have ridden both sorts that I have mentioned above...

and not many people can or wish to....I like a horse that you sit dead still on unless you are cueing him,who continues in auto until you tell him to do some thing different on,a horse that can take a deep breath from me to mean "whoa" or an accidental leg flinch to mean lead swap....but very few people "get on" with this sort of horse....I think they make me a better rider....:yes:

Tamara in TN

[tri]

Dazed, no. We can leave the acting like a jerk to those like Renea. But it does sound like you want to hold at least a "virtual" knife to my throat to automatically agree that anything and everything someone posts on this forum has to be considered wonderful just because someone wants to do it.

I thought the question being discussed was the feasibility of these crosses as it pertains to marketability, competitiveness in sport and desirability. I think I have discussed that and asked for real statistics. So parden me if all that you wanted was a "oh yeah, the horse is very pretty" response. I never said don't do it, never said I don't like it and never put anyone down for doing it. You and Renea on the other hand have resorted to name calling and personal attacks. So who is being the jerk?

[Renae]

Dazed, no. We can leave the acting like a jerk to those like Renea. But it does sound like you want to hold at least a "virtual" knife to my throat to automatically agree that anything and everything someone posts on this forum has to be considered wonderful just because someone wants to do it.

I thought the question being discussed was the feasibility of these crosses as it pertains to marketability, competitiveness in sport and desirability. I think I have discussed that and asked for real statistics. So parden me if all that you wanted was a "oh yeah, the horse is very pretty" response. I never said don't do it, never said I don't like it and never put anyone down for doing it. You and Renea on the other hand have resorted to name calling and personal attacks. So who is being the jerk?

On the whole, Arabians and Half-Arabians sell for just as much at private sale as any Warmblood. I know of several Arabians andHalf-Arabians that compete in halter or English Pleasure that have sold in the 6 figure range in the last year.

At public auction in America Arabian/Half-Arabians sell BETTER than Warmbloods, from auction results I have seen.

In competition Arabians and Half-Arabians have in the past, do currently, and will continue in the future to compete on par with warmbloods and throughbreds in dreessage and show jumping. There are some talented Arabian and Half-Arabian eventers. Nothing in the world can best the Arabian at endurance and international level endurance horses sell for 6 figures.

Again, why are you even posting on this thread? What involvement do you have with the breed currently? How many Arabians or Half-Arabians have you bred and/or sold? How many horses have you bred that have competed at the Grand Prix level of dressage or show jumping? What are those horses names and where did they show/who showed them? Your aunt is a judge? I know lots of Arabian judges, who is your aunt? Just trying to figure out how you know the market so well. Please answer the questions, not just make up some other BS to avoid them as you have with every other question I've asked of you so far on this thread.

[tempichange]

Since I don't do auction, I was looking at normal sales. I don't paticularly care for the auction scene because the prices are always inflated and most people have too much money to burn.

Yes, ironic coming from a person who is always in the market to sell.

But any event, if you two have something personal to say I suggest doing it via PM. I will not have my thread degenerate into a trump card festival of "I'm better than you because". If this is what the arabian horse world is like (as I left it 10 years ago) then I'm looking oh-so forward in stepping back in it (not).

This thread was started because I was curious as to the success of crosses between arabs and warmbloods and what their marketability would be if one had to sell. Already I'm recieving the "ewww" reaction (minus four people) to the cross from those who see the breed as nothing more as schitzoid, ill conformed horses with whack job owners.

Either be constructive or get out.

[ljshorses]

Since I don't do auction, I was looking at normal sales. I don't paticularly care for the auction scene because the prices are always inflated and most people have too much money to burn.

Yes, ironic coming from a person who is always in the market to sell.

But any event, if you two have something personal to say I suggest doing it via PM. I will not have my thread degenerate into a trump card festival of "I'm better than you because". If this is what the arabian horse world is like (as I left it 10 years ago) then I'm looking oh-so forward in stepping back in it (not).

This thread was started because I was curious as to the success of crosses between arabs and warmbloods and what their marketability would be if one had to sell. Already I'm recieving the "ewww" reaction (minus four people) to the cross from those who see the breed as nothing more as schitzoid, ill conformed horses with whack job owners.

Either be constructive or get out.



Tempichange, unfortunately, whenever you add the word Arabian to the mix you get some people on both extreme sides. I can tell you from personal experience: I now in my 40's grew up as a jumper rider which meant I never even considered anything with Arabian blood way back then. But as fate would have it, 2 of my 3 kids decided they loved Arabians. One (my daughter)did hunters the other (my son) did western pleasure. I had started out breeding only TBs then moved onto Warmblood crosses and then now with some retired Arabians I thought hmmm, should work but will see. I now breed mostly Warmbloods and Warmblood/TB crosses but the 1 to 2 Arabian/Warmblood crosses I did turned out lovely and competitive so I am still including them in my program. It is a very nice cross when done well. As with all breeding, both individuals need to be strictly evaluated and need to compliment each other without being too huge a difference in type. I am now trying to get a filly out of one of my best Arabian mares. She is in Book I RPSI and was a wonderful show horse and was shown in mostly open shows. I think if I can get the filly I want then I will show it and eventually add it to the broodmares to get a 1/4 Arabian 3/4 Warmblood which I think could be spectacular. There are a lot of Arabian Sporthorse breeders out there that will give you their opinion. As I said, when done right it is a very competitive horse!

[hluing]

Well, I too do not see my slef on any side of the extreme. Long ago as a Hunter rider I too did not think Arabians were anything to get excited about. However, when I started riding dressage, I needed a horse that knew more then I did and my trainer helped me find two lower level schoolmasters..a purebred arabian and a 1/2 Arabian to lease. These horses taught me a ton and were lots of fun. I enjoyed going to both USDF open and Arabian shows and earned my USDF bronze medal. Now, I have only ridden WB's since then...but I have always liked to idea of a WB/Arabian cross...and have since then had a soft spot for Arabians.

Well, fast forward to three years ago and I was searching for US mares for my GRP breeding program. Arabian is an accepted breed for GRP breedng and I like the hardiness, prettiness and umph Arabians tend to bring to the table. When I saw my mare I was amazed at her dressage type movement. Truly the best I have seen on an Arabian to date and better then many WB's. She is a CMK/Davenport bred Arabian and after the great results I had crossing her to GRP's...I would look for this type of breeding in a future mare.

As far as marketablility...yes, I think teh average dressage rider would be tyaken aback slightly by a 1/2 Arabian...but if its a truly high quality one...you should be able to sell it at a good price. But 1/2 Araboian does open anothe rmarket as it narrows one...so who knows;) Good luck whatever you decide.

[ancientoaks]

we love the cross...and are careful, as always, in choosing individuals..
were died in the wool purebred people (after 40 years of riding TB's in over fences and polo) and not too keen on warmbloods (without valid reason other than didn't like the 'clunky' looks of many)...
found that our 'type' of arabian (always bred tough individuals, good feet, good legs, good hips, sweet and trainable) was a good cross on good warmbloods...
here are several examples www.ancientoakssporthorse.com or (go to the Ironman site, Nancy has him on her site as well) - our colt IronStone by Ironman went premium at his GOV inspection out of a very very 'arabian' looking mare (at least from the throat up!) and we had a stunning colt by Manhatten (we lost him) , two by Feuertanzer (which are just 1/4 arab). we had a wonderful filly by our arab stallion and out of a lovely Trakehner mare this past march...She promises to be an outstanding hunter prospect..all of these have excellent minds, correct conformation and that 'special something' we feel the arabian can bring.
we are hoping, once we relocate, to breed another mare to Ironman, and our main book GOV arabian mare (dam of IronStone) to Welmeyer this year, and perhaps, if we feel ambitious, our bay mare Roxanne (due to foal to Nico any minute!) to Sinatra's Song...we have great hopes for the future of the cross, as well as for the Ango Arabian, as they have been tremendously elavated in appreciation in recent years.as they should be.. We would like to breed our one and only TB mare to a purebred arab of success in the open world of sport, perhaps next year...if all goes well...AND we have a pony of part arab breeding we would also try on an Oldenburg....it's a rewarding cross,

[exvet]

I have to admit to having a very similar experience as hluing. I too come from the hunter world (long, long ago) and was never really exposed to Arabians until I found myself as the resident vet for a prominent arab farm in the late 80's. I swore I would never own one after I left there. Well I've eaten those words more than a few times and lost a beloved purebred last year who I earned my bronze on, taught both kids to ride and was my husbands best trail riding buddy. Live and learn and open minds I say.

While I agree that the cross can prove to be exceptional, I've seen those that have been not so successful. As others have stated keeping close to breeding type to type may lessen the risk of some of the EEWWs ;) That being stated, our one Arab mare (We focus on welsh cobs but will always have at least one Arab due to the soft spot my entire family has for them now) is not one that I would have considered breeding to a warmblood (due to her petite size) though I've admired several crosses in the area that were to Manhattan & a couple of other regional favorites. She is crabbet bred and proving herself to be quite versatile with relatively little training. Though I have no conformation shots of her, here are a couple from two weekends ago at a schooling dressage show. I wonder hluing (or anyone else who cares to comment) if you think she's of the "type" you would consider breeding to a GRP? Again this would be for personal use (dressage, trail) and not so much for trying to appeal to a particular market because at least around here if it's not over 15.2 as a half-bred then they're harder to move imo.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/DoubleDuty.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/PassionPrescott.jpg


Hey, tempichange, do you have any pictures of the Arab you're thinking of breeding? Always love to see pictures of a nice animal :yes:

[tri]

I just want to say that I do not know Renea and have never had any dealings with her. I used to think she singled me out for her constant personal attacks but then I've seen where she has done the same thing to others as well.

Ancient Oaks, your horses are lovely and exvet, your mare is lovey as well.

[cheekyhorse]

Everyone has such lovely horses!!! I really like this cross, I only really started liking arab crosses when I started doing dressage. When I was riding hunters and jumpers I never would've considered it, but changed my mind many years ago. (I am currently scouting for a really nice arab mare to buy to breed to my stallion, I've looked at a couple, but nothing yet.) I think that it does open up another market with the arab sporthorse being as popular in the arab shows as it is. And I am seeing increasing numbers of them popping up in the dressage ring as well.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Just some reality observations about things I have seen in this market.

There is a price scale, AND ease of selling scale. An exceptional individual, owned by someone with great contacts, and good marketing skills can bump a horse up a level or more. As can training and performance.

*An imported horse is the easiest to sell, and will get the most $ with elite pedigree and performance going up from there
*A horse o/o an imported dam, by a European stallion with imported frozen semen
*A horse with an imported dam, by a stallion imported from Europe
*A horse with an imported dam, by a full European pedigreed warmblood stallion
*A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by a European stallion with frozen semen
* A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by an imported stallion
* A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by a full European pedigreed warmblood stallion
* A horse with a dam whose parents are half European bred, half TB, by a European stallion with frozen semen
*etc
*etc
*TB dam x imported frozen
*tb dam x imported stallion
*TB dam x European pedigreed stallion
*
way down here we finally begin to see horses with other breeds mixed in, other registries, lack of European Approval.

That does NOT mean they are ANY LESS of a horse than that import. Just that they are more difficult to sell, and you WILL have to work your b*tt off for the sale, build a reputation, and yes take a lower price, + TRAIN them to PROVE they are competitive. Let's face it. Horses are HARD, HARD to sell. Imports come with a US market umbrella that says they are good. The rest of us have to REALLY prove what we have, as buyers do NOT take your word for it, and come with a LOT of lifetime baggage.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The Hunter market is much more open for the European and TB mixes, but less open with Arabian crosses except for the ponies. The other issue is size. There is also a size scale for ease of selling and $$. Arabians have MANY generations of smaller genes, so more likely to produce smaller offspring, even by big Warmblood stallions.

I am also sitting on the fence facing a breeding decision with a breed and size that is not "prime" for the market.

A 4 year old daughter of one of my stallions o/o a 14h Appendix QH mare has been doing really well in the big dressage shows. She is ridden by a young rider. I have the opportunity to add her mom to my breeding program. The daughter is about 15.2. So to selll the offspring, I am facing QH breeding, small, and using my unlicensed stallion. That is a tough uphill climb, but the youngster is competitive with anything.

On the plus side is the fact that the good brains we have in this country I believe are just about to come into their own, as the Europeans continue to breed for that Anky horse, with the snorty blowey attitude and the auction trot. On the down side is that instead of turning to our wonderful horses, we see the direction changing to Freisians, baroque, etc. Quieter brains.

It IS a tough market, and you really have to think it thru to see if you are up for the fight, and in it for the long haul - for better, for worse, for richer, :no: for poorer. :yes: :winkgrin:

[Lafeyarabian]

I currently have 2 wb/arab crosses. Both are registered OLD NA and with AHA as half arabs (same arab dam different wb stallion). Both were premium foals at their wb inspection with different inspectors. The 2nd foal was reserve champion at his foal inspection. The first inspector told me that the 1st colt was the epitemy of modern warm blood breeding. The 2nd inspector told me not to geld my colt as he was definitely stallion potential. The older colt was 3rd last year for OLD NA all breed DBSH (USDF open shows). I'm just starting him under saddle this year, so far it has been quite easy. He's incredlibly smart. I'm really pleased with the cross.

[tri]

Fairview, I agree 100%.

Lafeyarabian, I think I posted it earlier in this thread - the fact that the europeans are coming over here and telling american breeders how wonderful the crosses are, doesn't mean that the market is agreeing with them. Maybe it will change with time, but I definately don't see it happening any time soon with the hunter and jumper people who want to compete at the A and AA levels.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I agree with Fairview 110%, as well.
I don't think there is a question of whether some Arabs, 1/2 Arabs, etc. can make wonderful sporthorses and get the job done (they can). However, I think saleability here is an issue. If you are breeding for yourself then you have the luxury of breeding what you want to ride and not worrying as much about whether there is a market for it. I also think that if you are breeding for the Arab market that the cross makes sense, as it seems to me like more and more Arab people are getting involved in dressage, etc. In that case (at least my impression) it seems that they really like the Arab/Warmblood cross.
I think, though, that if you are breeding for the open market; hunters, dressage, jumpers that you are going to have a little more difficulty selling. Especially before they are under saddle; once they are under saddle and prove that they can do the job it becomes less of an issue. I know that in my own personal program I've had a lot more interest in foals that are "real Warmbloods" i.e. Warmblood mare and Warmblood stallion. The foals that have been harder to sell have been out of TB mares. I imagine that you would face the same, if not more, prejudice trying to sell the 1/2 Arab babies. Fairview hit the nail on the head with her "scale". This year I have sold 2 foals in utero before they were even 30 days along in gestation out of an imported mare and by a stallion standing in Europe (frozen semen). You can't tell me that some of it isn't just fashion! So I think in that sense you won't get the premium amount of money, from the open sport horse world, for the YOUNG 1/2 Arab.

[Oakstable]

Ditto on Hillside's and Fairview's comments.

Many of us COTH regulars are heavily invested emotionally and monetarily in our horses, and intensely watch the forums to see which way the wind is blowing in the sporthorse industry.

If you breed to keep, that's one thing. If you breed to sell, you have to pay attention to what the market will buy. Ford and GM have been dealing with this for years.

I've noticed that one marketing strategy is to have a "frozen" baby in the sales herd along with your domestically bred stock. This assumes a certain number of sale horses, which may not be feasible for many.

[ancientoaks]

thank you Tri for the compliments.
I don't think it's a size issue..not with the 'sudden' interest in the German Riding ponies...I still think it's a 'prejudice' issue from years of our 'own' (arab folk) presenting an image they thought attractive and exciting, but to the 'rest of the world' seemed idiotic, unusable and downright scary at times...it will take time...and proof (it's out there, just hard to gather the statistics as those numbers are just not there...) A small purebred gelding named Russian Roullette has taken the west coast, in his meter division by surprise from a few years back, he routinely beats warmbloods in open jumping venues...and he's probably not that unique, just talked about and bragged on (justifiyably) alot...there are people out there showing arabs, even years ago, who just didn't own up to it, as some arabs, like other breeds, don't 'show their colors'...there is a big, purebred arabian stallion right now, the winningest in arab show history, that competes with the big guys on the open dressage circuit, goes to the big arab shows (national levels), wins at the dressage, and then, at the same show wins or reserves in regular working hunter. which he just started doing less than two years ago...I doubt there are too many warmbloods, even at a 'lower' level of hunter could do 3rd and 4th level dresssage and earn the scores this purebred has..he is not the 'norm', no doubt, but the more people who TRY, then the more 'norm' he may be...warmbloods are bred , owned, etc to be shown in either dressage, jumping or eventing, not 'just for halter' as many arabs have been over the years...So I think it's a bit of a coming out party lately...lots of arabs that no one even thought of trying to get involved with are now 'coming out of the closet' and people are finding out they can do the job. perhaps not at the grand prix level, but THOUSANDS of TB's and warmbloods cannot EITHER!....anymore than ALL TB's can run...
and I think the market for smaller, quicker brained, and most certainly prettier horses is a fast growing segment...style and prestige will always make the news, the big dollars, but that's tru in any breed....we are finding the the cross, if done responsibly (like ANY breeding should be) is just right for many, even NON arab people with open minds looking for a horse to do a job well...like Goldilocks....there are those out there looking for that not too big a horse, not too small, that 'just right horse' that many arabs and arab crosses fit to a tee....Cheeky...PM me..

[Lyss]

I've bred a few warmblood Arab crosses, primarily Trakehner/Arab crosses, but also to Hanoverian and now have just delivered my 3rd generation - a filly by an Oldenburg stallion out of my Trakehner/Arab mare. I've also imported, bought and sold other warmbloods, such as Dutch and Hanoverians. While I do the Arab/Warmblood breeding for my ownself, as an adult amateur dressage rider on the smaller size- I have also sold offspring of my breeding programs for decent amounts comparable to Warmblood/TB crosses of the same size, age and level - but the good money comes from a horse well under saddle, with a show record and amateur friendly temperament. A gelding that I recently sold had attracted a largely amateur "open dressage" market, and had a look that just said "modern warmblood" then anything Arab. Ironically though, he did sell to someone who came from the Arabian background and at first I think, was a little disappointed he did not have any standout Arabian features and had to be convince with stick and level that he was not bigger then advertised (16.1) - but his wonderful temperament and easy going nature is what sold him and actually made it difficult a decision for me to sell, as an amateur, as he was so reliable. My other warmbloods have sold for more comparative to this gelding's age and training when sold, but he was still within the range and scale.

This is the Trakehner/Arab gelding, by Veneziano (deceased) out of an Arab mare:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762402807160/photo/294928804400231146/3

This is his dam, a primarily Polish bred mare, whom I showed in open dressage as well - she had a phenomenal trot and very large canter - she was only 15.1, but often mistaken for a larger horse and quite often, not even as an Arab (she had a pretty, but not particulary Arab face):

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762310752887/photo/294928803042500421/3

I bred the above mare back to another Trakehner stallion, Happy Hour, for my bestest, best girlfriend mare - who ended not quite as tall as her half brother, but still good size, frame and substance and a more Arab like face then mother or half brother. She is the cool minded but forward type with a great work ethic, no nonsense attitude and is a dream to ride - I had dearly loved her half brother, but once this one was under saddle, we just clicked. She's the one that showed me "rideability" isn't just the gaits, but that willingness to be influenced by the rider with that kind of positive responsiveness. This is a picture from her first show right before she was bred (in fact, right after the show, she got on the trailer to be bred! Some reward for winning her class):

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762402797722/photo/294928804400255880/4

And finally, while not the Arab/warmblood cross, but to show how the influence comes through - this is the above mare's brand new little filly by the Oldenburg stallion, Blue Hors Don Romantic, a Don Schufro son. This is where I eventually wanted to get with my breeding, again, for my own purposes and goals in riding - I think I will always been happy with some of the positive influences that Arabians can contribute to warmblood breeding, but it's a matter of taste and preference and probably what you are use to as well. This filly does show more size, bone and substance expected from the breeding, but she does still show the Arab influence - The 2nd picture shows it a bit more, but while it skipped both her dam and maternal granddam, this filly inherited those tippy ears I used to see on some of my purebred Arabs years back. I am looking forward to seeing how this little girl develops and how her breeding comes through.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762401872452/photo/294928804385814469/0

8 Days:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762401872452/photo/294928804400116877/6

For me, both on a personal and marketing level, the Arab/warmblood cross has been successful in terms of my own satisfaction in breeding, training, developing my own horses, but also in sales - but I don't breed for market, I breed for myself and generally I find, that if you have a horse you really enjoy, you'll have all sorts of people wanting a horse like yours - but it is as others have posted, first you have to be out there showing that you have a horse that can get the job done and be enjoyable.

[Black Forest]

My mom has a (retired) registered Trakehner gelding by Condus who was gorgeous in his prime. Condus was by a Trakehner stallion out of a TB/Arab mare.

Here are some pictures: http://www.gestuet-haemelschenburg.de/html/e_condus.html

Actually not quite, Condus was out of a Trakehner mare by Ramzes x - an Anglo Shagya by definition. There is a difference between adding the blood from the top or the bottom of the pedigree.

There are numerous Anglo Arab stallions that have been extensively used in Warmblood breeding and are regarded extremely highly - Inshallah AA (famous for producing totally incredible mares who in turn produced incredible sporthorses and stallions) or more recently Matcho AA or the mentioned Anglo Shagya Ramzes who is found in so many jumping pedigrees and a lot of Dressage ones too.

The use of an Anglo stallion on a WB mare is generally preferred in WB breeding over using a pure Arab bacause of the size issue already mentioned by Tri and also to not mix too severely typewise.

I love a dash of Arab blood in a WB, about 12.5% to 25% suits me fine depending on how it works out.

The first generation crosses Arab stallion x WB mare are not usually considered an end result but a first step and "need" to be recrossed a couple more generations to consolidate the line.

The other way round (arab mare WB stallion) is rarely done here because it goes against the basic rules of "breed blood on bone" and "breed light on heavy" and "breed small on large"

The Traks do it occasionally but even there usually the blood is added from the top and they also tend to prefer Anglo Arab blood, preferably consolidated Anglo Arab blood rather than an F1 generation, and usually again blood on top.

[ljshorses]

I can't say that I agree that they are hard to market and sell nor can I agree that they mostly go to Arab people, at least that has not been what I have seen the last few years with my crosses. Only one went to an Arabian person wanting an Arabian sporthorse for the breed shows. That one went to Washington state from my place in Maryland for decent money. She was not quite a year old. The others all went to "open" show homes and are doing well. All went far, Florida, Kansas, Maine etc... I have sold none of my Arab/Warmblood crosses locally though.

This year the Ironman colt appears to be suited for the hunter ring, no Arab tail thing and very pretty hunter movement at this time. The Scimitar baby is more suited for dressage but seems to like to jump as well so hard to say yet with him, maybe eventing? Both are big boys and should make 16+h so I don't think they will be too small, but then none of my Arab crosses have been. All to date look to make or have made at least 16h and my mares are 15 to 15.2h. So discipline wise as well as size are things that are not set in stone and again when careful, the cross is nice. I have seen it ugly though so that is why I keep saying that. A person not far from me bred a straight Egyption mare (straight croup, pencil legs very swanny neck) to a heavy old style Hanoverian (almost thick and clunky)and got a thick short upside down neck, big body pencil leg baby she now at 3 can't seem to give away.

[Dazednconfused]

Just some reality observations about things I have seen in this market.

There is a price scale, AND ease of selling scale. An exceptional individual, owned by someone with great contacts, and good marketing skills can bump a horse up a level or more. As can training and performance.

*An imported horse is the easiest to sell, and will get the most $ with elite pedigree and performance going up from there
*A horse o/o an imported dam, by a European stallion with imported frozen semen
*A horse with an imported dam, by a stallion imported from Europe
*A horse with an imported dam, by a full European pedigreed warmblood stallion
*A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by a European stallion with frozen semen
* A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by an imported stallion
* A horse with a dam whose parents are 100% European bred, by a full European pedigreed warmblood stallion
* A horse with a dam whose parents are half European bred, half TB, by a European stallion with frozen semen
*etc
*etc
*TB dam x imported frozen
*tb dam x imported stallion
*TB dam x European pedigreed stallion
*
way down here we finally begin to see horses with other breeds mixed in, other registries, lack of European Approval.

That does NOT mean they are ANY LESS of a horse than that import. Just that they are more difficult to sell, and you WILL have to work your b*tt off for the sale, build a reputation, and yes take a lower price, + TRAIN them to PROVE they are competitive. Let's face it. Horses are HARD, HARD to sell. Imports come with a US market umbrella that says they are good. The rest of us have to REALLY prove what we have, as buyers do NOT take your word for it, and come with a LOT of lifetime baggage.

Eh - really great horses are always easy to sell, no matter what breed.

[Dazednconfused]

A small purebred gelding named Russian Roullette has taken the west coast, in his meter division by surprise from a few years back, he routinely beats warmbloods in open jumping venues...and he's probably not that unique, just talked about and bragged on (justifiyably) alot...

I don't think you want to mention that horse as a paragon of arabian fabulousness around here. :winkgrin: :lol: :lol: :lol: :eek:

[Dazednconfused]

The first generation crosses Arab stallion x WB mare are not usually considered an end result but a first step and "need" to be recrossed a couple more generations to consolidate the line.


Well, here in the US, the AHA requires one purebred parent to register half arabian foals. Since the major niche IMO of the arab/wb crosses is being able to enter breed shows AND USDF/open hunter/jumper/eventing shows, it will continue to become an "end result" most likely. I agree with the rest of your post though - makes a lot more sense to use warmblood mares with arab stallions. But for american breeders, especially those of half arabs, it is a lot easier to breed an arab mare to a warmblood stallion than the other way around.

[ancientoaks]

I don't think you want to mention that horse as a paragon of arabian fabulousness around here. :winkgrin: :lol: :lol: :lol: :eek:

Why not???????????????????? perhaps I am missing something?????being old and stupid>

[Dazednconfused]

There was a rather infamous thread here that got a bit out of hand with the bragging that involved mystery houseguests that posted under the same IP address as the owner. He (and/or his owner) doesn't have a particularly stellar reputation on this board because of the fiasco. It's probably still in the archives somewhere...

[pintopiaffe]

I breed for myself and generally I find, that if you have a horse you really enjoy, you'll have all sorts of people wanting a horse like yours - but it is as others have posted, first you have to be out there showing that you have a horse that can get the job done and be enjoyable.Lyss, you have some LOVELY horses. You make me even more excited about my 1/2 Arab (well, 15/32 to be exact!) 1/2 Trakehner colt. Dam was a bit old fashioned, a *Malachit daughter, but a good type to match to my stallion.

I ended up in Arabland because I was looking for particular charactersitics, regardless of actual *breed*. Ended up finding them in a 15/16ths Arab package.

Have since discovered I really like anywhere from 1/4 to 5/8 Arab. Not as fond of purebreds as a rule, with of course exceptions.

As you mention, buyers of my horses have all been attracted to the athleticism, rideability and temperament. I don't think any of them were necessarily looking for "arabs" but they liked what they saw.

I don't think this is really the right demographic audience for the discussion. While I *adore* this board, and the input and generosity with information and knowledge that abounds here... this is not your *typical* demographic. Not even for sporthorses. Many of the folks here are pretty darn elite.

I suspect the same question asked to a different audience would yeild quite a different answer.

The 1/2 Arab has much to offer the amatuer. Everglade used to have a couple of excellent articles on just *why* that is true.

The thing is *here*, people are pretty passionate about their breed, or verband or such. Which is FABULOUS. In my opinion you shouldn't BE breeding unless you believe with all your heart you are forwarding the species with a purpose. But I don't think you're going to ever 'sell' Arab to most of the folks here. Those of us who value them and breed them, yes. But not the 'purists.' AND THAT'S OK too.

I'm actually finding myself going in a different direction from WB crosses for many reasons, but I just don't think the WB market is looking for Arab blood. Rather, I do agree it's more the other way.

Just horses for courses, as they say. ;)

[Oakstable]

This forum is only a slice of the sporthorse market. The magazine has historically been heavily weighted to the East Coast and I think the forum is also inhabited by that coast to a great degree.

I think pintopiaffe is right in saying that posters here represent one demographic.

Because I foxhunted at one time, I'd look at a friend's Chronicle and marveled at the prices for a horse ($7500). My first horse was free and I paid $1500 for my second one, a grade appendix mare.

As an aside, there are so many nice stallions who are never mentioned here because their fan clubs are not COTHers.

[Landonn's mom]

This young stallion has a strong following of arabian supporters and has had some very exciting young half-arab prospects, getting ready to debut. Some of the mares being shown this year at Arabian Sport Horse Nationals, will actually be in foal to him at the time.

www.bluebrookfarm.com LANDONN I, Holsteiner

[ancientoaks]

There was a rather infamous thread here that got a bit out of hand with the bragging that involved mystery houseguests that posted under the same IP address as the owner. He (and/or his owner) doesn't have a particularly stellar reputation on this board because of the fiasco. It's probably still in the archives somewhere...

I am not interested in the 'sins' of the owner (or whomever was involved in the thread you mention) whether real or imagined, as it has no bearing on the fact that this is an accomplished, talented horse and he has proven it in an open venue far too many times to be coincidence. My statement stands as giving an example of a purebred that broke the 'rules' in open competition. period. as well as H.S.A. Comet has .

and I agree that demographics here make the discussion a bit tiresome at times, however, having read and posted here for a long time, I DO see a shift in opinion, statement and attitude and it seems to reflect that seen out in the real world. a true appreciation growing for the contribution of arabian blood, as well as the realization that many purebreds can accomplish much of what many need.
as for the 1/8. 1/4. 3rd generation, and other techy breeding stuff, wish it were that simple. over time, perhaps this can hold true, but we don't see the mulitudes of 'failed' breedings (and certainly not just the infusion of arab blood) that fall by the wayside on the way to 'perfection' ..a good horse is a good horse and whether it's 1/8, 4th gen, , 1/2 ......the 'theories' about what 'works' the best are just that..good theories that work about as often as any other breeding 'theories'...one cannot count on success, in other words, any more than someone who thinks that if they buy a full sibling to a an accomplished performer they are destined to achieve similar results can count on that..it's all been said before, but kudos from me to all of you with such wonderful, lovely, USING horses, whatever YOUR theories are, they are working! keep at it.

[tempichange]

Hey, tempichange, do you have any pictures of the Arab you're thinking of breeding? Always love to see pictures of a nice animal :yes:

I do, I'm just trying to resize them down so they don't look... huge. I can tell you that she does have a decent hip, is pretty short coupled, built evenly and has a short neck. And she is Bask bred, but otherwise, a typically bred and built american 'ayrab'.

I have pretty much narrowed it down between HP Hannovarians and a newly imported stallion who passed his 100 day test with distinction and from what I told should make an interesting cross.

[Dazednconfused]

I am not interested in the 'sins' of the owner (or whomever was involved in the thread you mention) whether real or imagined, as it has no bearing on the fact that this is an accomplished, talented horse and he has proven it in an open venue far too many times to be coincidence. My statement stands as giving an example of a purebred that broke the 'rules' in open competition. period. as well as H.S.A. Comet has

Perhaps you should look through the archives to see what I mean. The owner of the horse completely embarrassed the breed by the time the thread was done with.

Do you mean HSA Haley's Comet?

[mairzeadoats]

Perhaps you should look through the archives to see what I mean. The owner of the horse completely embarrassed the breed by the time the thread was done with.


Ok, I took up your challenge and looked up the trainwreck. I didn't bother to read through the 100 pages to see what started the typical coth manure-slinging. I did pick through and as far as I can see, the general consensus was that RR is a very talented horse with a much less talented rider. I noticed that a couple of the mudslingers have subsequently destroyed their own reputations on coth. I didn't look for and don't really care what the owner wrote that was supposedly embarrassing to the breed.

News alert -- this thread is about arabian horses and how they cross with warmbloods. I fail to see how a 2 year old trainwreck in which an arab owner may have embarrassed him or herself is relevant. Most horse owners manage to embarrass themselves at one time or another. Likewise the vast majority of horses are more talented than their riders, imho. It doesn't take away from RR's athletic ability or trainability, which is relevent to this thread..

[ancientoaks]

Perhaps you should look through the archives to see what I mean. The owner of the horse completely embarrassed the breed by the time the thread was done with.

Do you mean HSA Haley's Comet?

thank you Mairz, you put it far better than I...
and yes, by 'Comet' I meant Haley's Comet...his breeders are dear old friends of ours, we have known the horse for years...so in conversation I lapsed into barn name talk...sorry.

[tempichange]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/dscf0159.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/dscf0090.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/dscf0040.jpg

sorry for the quality in advance.

[exvet]

sorry for the quality in advance

No need to apologize. She does have a nice hip. Is she a maiden? How tall is she? Just curious. TIA.

[tempichange]

She's 14.1, from what I've been told she is a maiden. But for 14.1 I'm fairly impressed, she doesn't look like one of those petite halter things.

[tempichange]

one last bump. Opinions, ideas, comments always welcomed.

[Dalriada]

One good example of Warmblood Arabian cross is Dinero Grande (formerly MG Mariachi) (Rio Grande X MG Khemosheba) showing in the New England states on both the Open circuits and the Arabian circuits.

This boy does working hunter and dressage as well as many of the Arabian Sport Horse divisions.

[tri]

14.1? From a pure marketability position, breed her to a fancy fancy pony stallion.

[Black Forest]

14.1? From a pure marketability position, breed her to a fancy fancy pony stallion.

I TOTALLY agree, Hilken's Black Delight springs to mind immediately, my god, that foal would be something else.

I would IMMEDIATELY forget any even VAGUE idea of crossing her to an old fashioned style Warmblood of any description, she is 14.1hh for heaven's sake and a maiden to boot. Quite apart from it being most unwise to cross two so vastly different types I'd just not do that to a small fine bodied mare.

I think she's a lovely looking mare but to I'd never ever dream of breeding her to anything over 16hh and even then only to a lighter framed stallion, so why not breed for an incredibly fancy and almost certainly breathtakingly beautiful Sportpony of probably exquisite quality by looking at the SuperPonies... And they don't come a lot more "super" than HBD

http://www.exclusiveequines.com.au/pony/hilkens_black_delight.htm

He and some of his contemporaries make me feel really sad that I am not a tiny person so that I could have something like that, I swear some of those ponies move better than the best of their 16.2hh counterparts....

[mairzeadoats]

14.1? From a pure marketability position, breed her to a fancy fancy pony stallion.

The OP has already stated she is not breeding for the market; she is breeding for herself, to strive for her personal riding goals. Marketability is 2nd, in the event her finances head south, and then not as a for-profit business, but to ensure that somebody, somewhere will want her horse for something.

Tempichange, as long as you put good training on an attractive, well-tempered horse with good character, you'll have done your part.

I've been wondering myself how the W-line would cross with arabs. As much as I like Rosenthal, I always hear he stamps the front end, whereas for FEI I think the hind end matters most. A lot of the W-lines are more medium-sized and I also hear that Weltmeyer tends to give the engine. What about someone like Wonderful? Doesn't Bolero have some arab back there...so not far out of type?

[ljshorses]

The OP has already stated she is not breeding for the market; she is breeding for herself, to strive for her personal riding goals. Marketability is 2nd, in the event her finances head south, and then not as a for-profit business, but to ensure that somebody, somewhere will want her horse for something.

Tempichange, as long as you put good training on an attractive, well-tempered horse with good character, you'll have done your part.

I've been wondering myself how the W-line would cross with arabs. As much as I like Rosenthal, I always hear he stamps the front end, whereas for FEI I think the hind end matters most. A lot of the W-lines are more medium-sized and I also hear that Weltmeyer tends to give the engine. What about someone like Wonderful? Doesn't Bolero have some arab back there...so not far out of type?


I have heard the same thing about Rosenthal, you need a mare with an excellent hind end then you may get absolutely perfect...but if mare lacking there??? "W" line is slow maturing but definitely has the engine. What about Prince Optimus? I bred a TB mare to him that needed some butt and wow did the baby get some. I bred another mare to him this year. He is a Hanoverian and is a refining stallion so not too far off type for an Arabian. I bred 2 Arabs this year, one to Scimitar and one to Ironman and both have very nice hind ends. The Ironman is more refined but both have good bone and size. There are many choices if you carefully look.

[arnika]

I think Wonderful would make a lovely cross with your mare. Adding some size but not too much, he also has a very pretty head, neck and engine. When you factor in his FEI quality gaits and an excellent temperament, what's not to like? I don't know his owner personally but have coresponded with her and she is very knowledgeable and nice.

[tempichange]

For an arabian she doesn't have that table top flat hip, it's rather sloping, but her angles are a bit straight. What really needs to be improved is shoulders and neck. Her neck ties in well, but her shoulder is mutton.

I have considered pony (I ride them and would love to have an uber talented individual) but I think the first cross needs to be throwing over 15.2 hands because I want to aim for the FEI YH classes.

Wonderful has been suggested to me, as well as numerous other stallions, and I'm trying (slowly) to wade through them all.

[Nitter_Pitter]

Anyone that has Arabians or Arabian crosses needs to check out this site: http://www.arabianbreeders.net/ We even have a section for Sport Horses and there are quite a few of Arab and 1/2 Arab Sport Horse people there who have 1/2 WB 1/2 Arab horses. :D

[Shawnda N]

There are a few Arab (Aul Magic) X Trakehner babies on this page.
http://www.sovereignfarm.com/foals.html
The breeder has bred to Aul magic a number of times, and is thrilled with the cross.

[Black Forest]

I have considered pony (I ride them and would love to have an uber talented individual) but I think the first cross needs to be throwing over 15.2 hands because I want to aim for the FEI YH classes.


OK flamesuit on but if you want to breed yourself something special over 15.2hh then get yourself a mare that is around that size and go then, To get something over 15.2hh out of a 14.1hh mare you have to go way over the sensible height of stallion for any mare that tiny, let alone a maiden.

And yes I too have heard about those pony mares that have foaled perfect foals by ginormous sires but I have also witnessed mammoth foals being cut out of a dying mare in slices with a wire leaving a stable full of blood and two dead horses.

And even leaving those risks to health and life of the mare aside, two such vastly differing sizes and types rarely produce a harmonious foal especially with the small light part being the mare.

[exvet]

There are a few Arab (Aul Magic) X Trakehner babies on this page.
http://www.sovereignfarm.com/foals.html
The breeder has bred to Aul magic a number of times, and is thrilled with the cross.


I've kept an eye on the website and have been trying to see how this particular breeding program does under saddle. Though I show A LOT in this area, both schooling shows and recognized shows, particularly in 2006, I remember only seeing one (Hugo on the "News" page) shown at a recognized dressage show. The rider/trainer is a very good rider and did a good job on a very young & green horse. I am very interested to see others "go" in person and perhaps have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time if others have been shown in this area. I often load up and leave when our tests are done and rarely stay for the whole show. Though I've cut our showing back significantly this year maybe in the fall some of the other representatives of this breeding program will be out at the same shows I attend so that I can see how well they really are performing.

[Perfect Pony]

I
I bred the above mare back to another Trakehner stallion, Happy Hour, for my bestest, best girlfriend mare - who ended not quite as tall as her half brother, but still good size, frame and substance and a more Arab like face then mother or half brother.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/avondayfarm/album/576460762402797722/photo/294928804400255880/4



Ah MiMi, the horse I should have bought all those years ago. So glad to see her doing so well! After all my trials and tribulations you know I ended up with a 15.2hh Hanoverian mare who looks like a HanxArab cross. It's so great to see recent pics of her, you have to let me know when you have her at a show again.

[mairzeadoats]

OK flamesuit on but if you want to breed yourself something special over 15.2hh then get yourself a mare that is around that size and go then, To get something over 15.2hh out of a 14.1hh mare you have to go way over the sensible height of stallion for any mare that tiny, let alone a maiden.

And even leaving those risks to health and life of the mare aside, two such vastly differing sizes and types rarely produce a harmonious foal especially with the small light part being the mare.

Aaack! No need for flamesuit...agreed. With the desire for 15.2+, don't start with that small a mare. The odds are way against you no matter who you breed to.

[tempichange]

OK flamesuit on but if you want to breed yourself something special over 15.2hh then get yourself a mare that is around that size and go then, To get something over 15.2hh out of a 14.1hh mare you have to go way over the sensible height of stallion for any mare that tiny, let alone a maiden.

And even leaving those risks to health and life of the mare aside, two such vastly differing sizes and types rarely produce a harmonious foal especially with the small light part being the mare.

No need to need to zip the flame suit on.

I'm not going to breed to a mammoth, I've ruled out horses well over 16hh and the "klunkers". The stallion I'm fairly decided on (Rosenthal and the GRPs) is a fairly refined 15.3 hands.

And I should have been more specific in regards to a few things.

FEI YH doesn't allow ponies (via FEI rules), so I would be aiming for something around the 15hh mark. While yes, I would love to have another pony, and to have one that would be smashingly successful in whatever field it decides to go in. I would like to breed for about 15 hands, for dressage and with these paticular goals in mind.

[Lyss]

Ah MiMi, the horse I should have bought all those years ago. So glad to see her doing so well! After all my trials and tribulations you know I ended up with a 15.2hh Hanoverian mare who looks like a HanxArab cross. It's so great to see recent pics of her, you have to let me know when you have her at a show again.

PP, I do remember! But glad you didn't, she's really turn out great for me and can't wait to start riding her again after her maternity leave! But I think you ended up with the "perfect pony" yourself - she sounds absolutely charming!

Tempichange, your mare is lovely! However, I do believe Rosenthal is 16.3, not 15.3, if I did not misread your post. I am familiar with his offspring, undeniably beautiful and super temperaments - but the ones I know are quite big - but out of warmblood mares. I know though he has crossed successfully with Arabians and Angela may be able to give you an idea where those crosses are likely to mature.

[ancientoaks]

we have a friend who bred (and continues to do so) a very small, elegant arab mare to Rosenthal, DeLaurentis, etc....and the mare has done just fine..she has a big basket and is not narrow thru the hips, tho.. do NOT know what the mare was bred to the first time as she did not own her at that time..the foals are sizy, elegant, exc. temperment (mare counts hugely rmember!) move very nicely and sell well...just for your info.....
I am of the old school of thought that in MOST cases nature and the mare's basket determines birth weight - and the foal can often achieve more size as it matures, but is born at a manageable size for whatever the mare has in capacity...the ones that need cut out, from OUR background, were mostly from situations where the foal was sideways (or otherwise being presented incorrectly), OR the mare's conformation of having narrow hips created problems for a sizy foal...but I still would not expect hugeness from your cross, but you explained all that....and Rosenthal, to the best of my knowledge is definately OVER 15.3.....but quite elegant and 'araby' in type...

[mairzeadoats]

"The stallion I'm fairly decided on (Rosenthal and the GRPs) is a fairly refined 15.3 hands."

Not sure what/who the GRPs are, but Rosenthal is 16.3, not 15.3.

[tempichange]

GRP= Wieser Erms Pony a/k/a German Riding Pony.

My bad on Rosenthal's size.

[mairzeadoats]

GRP= Wieser Erms Pony a/k/a German Riding Pony.

My bad on Rosenthal's size.

Thanks! Not a bad; just may not be the right match for your mare...too easy to end up with 16.3 hand body on 14.1 hand legs.

[hluing]

By the way its Weser-Ems...no i in the spelling. I will agree with Black Forrest that Black Delight is a good choice. He is an amazingly fancy and talented pony with excellent semen. However, if you want something bigger...why not go with one of the wonderful but bigger GRP's...like FS Don't Worry or even his son standing in the US, FS Daily Hero. I really wanted to cross my arabian mare with FS Don't Worry this year but because of the uterine insuff. issues she was having I decided not to take the risk. I think that cross would be amazing because he needs a more refined mare as he is a bit substantial himself...but what a mover!

[Black Forest]

By the way its Weser-Ems...no i in the spelling. I will agree with Black Forrest that Black Delight is a good choice. He is an amazingly fancy and talented pony!


Isn't he just. When I want to cheer myself up or give myself a bit of equine eye-candy I watch one of his video clips. Then I wish they'd make Warmbloods like that....

And I SERIOUSLY believe the cross would be spectacular with that specific Arab mare, add a bit of her "dance" and hopefully keep the power?

FS Don't Worry to me is the Welmeyer amongst the ponies and HBD is the Rubinstein... :-)

I DO think Rosenthal is an incredibly gorgeous stallion and I have seen a black foal out of an Arab mare which I liked so much I sent the link to her picture to a number of my friends. BUT the height difference between 14.1hh and 16.3hh would just be a complete deal killer for me, if I really wanted a 15.2ish Rosenthal with that flair (and to be honest he has already got plenty of dish in the head etc as he is) I might try and get a 15ish / 15.1hh Anglo Arab or 3/4 Arab mare, preferably black, and use that.

I learned very long ago that we can't get everything out of one mare, and if the chances of getting just what we want safely and sensibly with mare A we have to scrap the idea or buy a different mare specifically to get the cross we want.

Don't get me wrong - I think that little mare is just lovely. I just don't think the possible gain is worth the risk personally.

[Kyzteke]

Check out "Whytewytch" on this site:

http://community.webshots.com/user/katoneal100

The first photo was taken when she was a late three year old. She is o/o a triple-Bask bred mare by the Dutch registered, OldNA approved stallion "Werigo." Werigo was a grand old man who was brought to America as a Grand Prix jumper (his sire was Rigoletto), but was found to have such talent in dressage that they switched him. Stephan Peters rode him...at least I have video of Stephan riding W. during a Robert Dover lesson. I believe they made it all the way to Grand Prix and won several HOY awards.

Werigo was 16.3hh and 17 years old when he started standing at stud. I was intriqued because he was a grandson of Ramzes, who I adore.

Interestingly, because of the "improvement blood" used in WBs, my filly is actually 50% Polish Arab, 6.25 % Shagya Arab, 18% TB and the rest is Dutch WB. She is a fantastic mover, great mind, straight legs, good bone, very pretty -- just a total darling - and I could not sell her to save my life!! I've sold a number of horses that (IMHO) were half as good for twice the $$$!

I got alot of response from both the dressage community and the endurance community (odd?). The dressage guys all gushed about her gaits, but she was too short for them (15hh is all she got to, height-wise). One woman called every four months for a year to ask if "Angel" had grown any!

The endurance people gushed about her trot and bone and feet...but they didn't want to pay "that kind of money" for an unstarted filly. I was asking $5500, which I consider pretty darn reasonable for a 3+yo filly of this caliber and breeding. Finally dropped to $4500. Still nothing.

So now it's a year later and she is still in my pasture -- no longer for sale!

I started under u/s myself and she was a total sweetie. Lots of fire and desire, but very intelligent and willing.

I'm thrilled NOW that nobody bought her, but I don't plan on breeding her mom back to anymore WBs.

As someone mentioned, these crosses can be spectacular, but "be prepared to sit on them awhile." I think that's true.

But again, that being said, I think the cross is very often BETTER than either of the PB parents, especially if you prefer alittle more of a hotrod than a Dually.

[hluing]

Quote from Black Forrest"FS Don't Worry to me is the Welmeyer amongst the ponies and HBD is the Rubinstein... I personally prefer the Rubinstein.."

Great analogy...I have heard FS Don't Worry called the Donnerhall of ponies and I agree that Black Delight does seem more like the Rubinstein. I am a Rubinstein girl myself, but it depends on the mare too...I just think that this would be a perfect mare to cross with FS Don't Worry. Now I myself bred a 14hh Arabain mare that is a wonderful mover to Highlife's Bodyguard (a Black Boy son so related to Delli) and this filly is a knock out...and not for sale;) So, I think for sure Black Delight would make a phenomenal cross.

[Black Forest]

Quote from Black Forrest"FS Don't Worry to me is the Welmeyer amongst the ponies and HBD is the Rubinstein... I personally prefer the Rubinstein.."

Great analogy...I have heard FS Don't Worry called the Donnerhall of ponies and I agree that Black Delight does seem more like the Rubinstein. I am a Rubinstein girl myself, but it depends on the mare too...I just think that this would be a perfect mare to cross with FS Don't Worry.

My head agrees, my heart sees a perfect black foal by HBD out of the Arab mare in question, with huge eyes and a ballet dancer's grace yet all the wha-whoom of daddy, tiddly ears that curl towards the middle and so much suspension.... the kind that would make me want to be 5 inches shorter and an undisclosed number of pounds lighter so I could pound down a few centre lines and beat the hell out of the big ones on it .....

Actually I do not agree much with the Donnerhall - Don't Worry analogy - look at a Weltmeyer video and a Don't Worry one you see what I mean - there is another one that would fit the Donnerhall comparison but my brain's gone blank as to the name....

[hluing]

Black Delight...you should look at my BodyguardxArab filly Laurel...she meets your description to a tee...black, huge eyes, inward curling ears and so graceful with great movement! I will posting more pics on my website soon as she is so photogenic as is her mama. They make the best mare/foal photos. I have to admit I am looking forward to riding her down centerline myself!

As far as the Weltmeyer/Donnerhall debate...I'll take your word for it...but I am not the one who came up with the Donnerhall comparision...I've just read about it on German sites.

[pintopiaffe]

I haven't quite caught up on all the replies to this lately, but has anyone mentioned Mannhattan?

My stallion's maternal 1/2 sister (full arab) was bred to him and had an exceptional foal. I've seen several other crosses with him. All really well blended.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Is there a organization that promotes half arabians for sport? or is everything done thru the AHA?

[Dazednconfused]

Everything's done through AHA.

And I have to say they do a great job. Very reasonable registration fees, lots of awards, ample classes in most areas, great tracking of wins/points (through their own showrecord system and the Datasource). Given just about equal footing with the purebreds.

[Black Forest]

I haven't quite caught up on all the replies to this lately, but has anyone mentioned Mannhattan?

I totally adore Mannhattan but you did notice that the mare is all of 14.1hh and the owner is breeding specifically for FEI potential Dressage?

[tempichange]

I totally adore Mannhattan but you did notice that the mare is all of 14.1hh and the owner is breeding specifically for FEI potential Dressage?

I don't know how to take this? A back handed complement?

[exvet]

I don't know how to take this? A back handed complement?

I wouldn't worry about it.

There is a breeder in Tucson who has bred her arab mares to Manhattan a few times which resulted in at least a couple of mares that I saw at Scottsdale a few years back. I remember one doing well in sport horse in hand. They were both very nice and appeared to be around 15-15.3 in height at maturity. One was taller than the other. The dams are bred more like my mare and I believe are/or were around 14.2 or so in height. Needless to say the cross was a good one though it took the owner a while to sell the offspring which she posted about quite often on this board. If the cross is of interest to you & you would like her contact info, I can get it to you.

[Dawn J-L]

I don't know how to take this? A back handed complement?

I wouldn't worry about it.

You can't compete pony sized horses in FEI competition. Other than that, stick height is not particulary relevant to the ability to perform at the upper levels. One can have the correct structure, elasticity, expression, rideability, etc. for excellent upper level work in a smaller package. Unfortunately, the perception that 16.2H+ is necessary for being competitive at the upper levels IS widespread. While I don't mind riding the behemoths, I prefer 15-15.3H myself. And there are more of us all the time.

Has this Arab mare produced any foals to date? (I don't recall if this has been brought up on the thread) If so, how tall have they been? I have a 14.2H mare that routinely has produced 15-15.3H offspring--when bred to stallions who were 15H or under. I wouldn't be surprised if her '06 Arab colt makes 16H (sire is 15H).

There is a breeder in Tucson who has bred her arab mares to Manhattan a few times which resulted in at least a couple of mares that I saw at Scottsdale a few years back.(snip)They were both very nice and appeared to be around 15-15.3 in height at maturity. (snip) Needless to say the cross was a good one though it took the owner a while to sell the offspring which she posted about quite often on this board. If the cross is of interest to you & you would like her contact info, I can get it to you.

Some of Manhattan's Arabx offspring (including the ones mentioned by exvet)
http://www.avalon-equine.com/mtsunrise.htm
http://www.avalon-equine.com/mistysierra.htm
http://www.avalon-equine.com/mannhattansfire.htm
http://www.avalon-equine.com/zamann.htm
http://www.avalon-equine.com/mystique.htm
http://www.avalon-equine.com/margalo.htm

x angl-arab:
http://avalon-equine.com/maybelline.htm

From what I've seen, the Arab x WB's are best when the Arab parent is not overly refined and has good sport horse structure and movement. If the Arab is narrow bodied, or has a short level hip, or is tight through the loin then you get a less than ideal result from the cross.

[tri]

"The OP has already stated she is not breeding for the market; she is breeding for herself, to strive for her personal riding goals."

Well, this is the opening post to this entire thread: " was curious as to the success of the cross, if the verbands would consider the foal for inspection and what the marketability was for something like this."

So I think I was responding to the OP correctly!

"There is a breeder in Tucson who has bred her arab mares to Manhattan a few times which resulted in at least a couple of mares that I saw at Scottsdale a few years back. I remember one doing well in sport horse in hand. They were both very nice and appeared to be around 15-15.3 in height at maturity. One was taller than the other. The dams are bred more like my mare and I believe are/or were around 14.2 or so in height. Needless to say the cross was a good one though it took the owner a while to sell the offspring which she posted about quite often on this board. If the cross is of interest to you & you would like her contact info, I can get it to you."

Are you talking about Tracy? If you are, she had a HORRIBLE time selling those horses. She talked about it a lot on this forum. They were premium at their inspections and she was in the heart of arab country. She said that most people told her that they were too small. She posted one time that she couldn't hardly give them away. She tried getting them started over fences to see if that would help but the horses weren't very inclined to jumping so again, a dead end for her.

[Black Forest]

I don't know how to take this? A back handed complement?

huh ?? Sorry I just meant that Mannhattan is absolutely fabulous but with a mare that size and the purpose you are breeding for I didn't think he was the best match? NOTHING backhanded about it in any way shape or form !!!!

[hluing]

Just to clarify...ponies can indeed be competed at FEI level (PSG, I1, 2, GP) by adults...just not at CDI's. You are also right they can't do the FEI YH classes (which stinks) and the FEI pony class for kids 12-16. So, bottom line an adult can ride a pony FEI level at a non-CDI event (which is most USDF shows)

[Dawn J-L]

Just to clarify...ponies can indeed be competed at FEI level (PSG, I1, 2, GP) by adults...just not at CDI's. You are also right they can't do the FEI YH classes (which stinks) and the FEI pony class for kids 12-16. So, bottom line an adult can ride a pony FEI level at a non-CDI event (which is most USDF shows)


Good to know. Thanks for the clarification :-)

[mairzeadoats]

[QUOTE=tri;2472520]"The OP has already stated she is not breeding for the market; she is breeding for herself, to strive for her personal riding goals."

Well, this is the opening post to this entire thread: " was curious as to the success of the cross, if the verbands would consider the foal for inspection and what the marketability was for something like this."

So I think I was responding to the OP correctly!

[QUOTE]

Yup, you're absolutely right. I'd forgotten how the OP started the thread. Later on she wrote she actually was breeding for herself, aiming for FEI yh, but wanted a horse that somebody would want in case life changes forced her to sell. Of course, there's a big difference between a horse that somebody, somewhere would want and a horse that would be potentially profitable.

Actually, I'm getting the feeling the OP is still very much in the thinking things through stage. Posted once she wants a horse at least 15.2; later 15h would be fine, etc..

[tempichange]

huh ?? Sorry I just meant that Mannhattan is absolutely fabulous but with a mare that size and the purpose you are breeding for I didn't think he was the best match? NOTHING backhanded about it in any way shape or form !!!!

Ah! Okay, I misread, my apologies:)

Dawn,
Yes, I know ponies can be competed in regular FEI (PSG-GP) classes, however since YH is considered an FEI sanctioned event, ponies are definately out (of FEI YH) until we get a pony YH championship. I would love for this venue to occur and I would love nothing more to train towards this, but at the same time it would be like the pony finals-- just for kiddies.

I compete a pony already and we're slowly going through the levels. I love ponies, otherwise I wouldn't have my current mare who sticks 14.1 flat.

And no, she is a maiden.

[Black Forest]

Ah! Okay, I misread, my apologies:)

.
No apology needed, I must have phrased something rather clumsily - Help me out though, would you? English is not my native language - I can't SEE what you read first off and I read it through again and again - how did it come across to be taken as something backhanded, just so I can avoid the turn of phrase again?

[hluing]

Now a pony YH championship...that is a great idea...but why for kids only? Look at the Bundeschampionate in Germany (for the top young horses AND ponies in Germany)...the ponies are ridden by adults. Maybe we should be getting together and trying to get USDF start a Pony YH Championship that adults can compete wonderful, young dressage ponies in. I love it!

[tempichange]

BF-
It was the question mark that made me read it in a different more incredulous tone, instead of reading as is. Almost in the tone of "as if she'll do that!" Puncuation does a lot for reading, a good example is this (notice where and how you put emphasis):

The horse does FEI dressage. (stated, neutral)
The horse does FEI dressage! (excited, exlamitory, with putting emphasis on 'does')
The horse does FEI dressage? (Questioning, probing to see if the statement is correct)

Hluing- I didn't realise that adults rode in the BuCha, all I've seen were the kiddies competing them in that championship. It really is a good idea, if you seriously are interested in making it a reality, and possibly trying to hold it in conjunction w/ YH championships. Lets talk. I think this would be a community effort.

[Black Forest]

BF-
It was the question mark that made me read it in a different more incredulous tone, instead of reading as is. Almost in the tone of "as if she'll do that!" Puncuation does a lot for reading, a good example is this (notice where and how you put emphasis):

The horse does FEI dressage. (stated, neutral)
The horse does FEI dressage! (excited, exlamitory, with putting emphasis on 'does')
The horse does FEI dressage? (Questioning, probing to see if the statement is correct)
.

AH... I see now - I am so sorry - that REALLY was not what I meant AT ALL! The question mark was to see if the poster who suggested Mannhattan had read what your brief was, ie a small potential FEI level Dressage horse out of your 14.1hh Arab mare. It wasn't questioning the chances of breeding one from your mare, I was asking if she had seen that this was your intention along with the size of the mare.

I DO try and think in english when I post but occasionally I will use a german-type phrase which then comes across different. Apologies again that spin was CATEGORICALLY not intended

Edited to add - in Germany you can only ride in specific Pony classes if you are 16 years old or younger. However you can take any Pony in any Dressage class that is not specifically for ponies only as an adult and quite a few people do. The same goes for Young Horse Jumping classes or regular Jumping classes, if you want to compete a Pony as an over 16you have to go into the horse classes but they can, on demand, adjust the distances in combinations for you and the other pony riders.

In PONY classes there is the age restriction but in everything else you can compete a pony all the way up to Grand Prix as an adult.

[exvet]

Now a pony YH championship...that is a great idea...but why for kids only? Look at the Bundeschampionate in Germany (for the top young horses AND ponies in Germany)...the ponies are ridden by adults. Maybe we should be getting together and trying to get USDF start a Pony YH Championship that adults can compete wonderful, young dressage ponies in. I love it!

Count me in as a supporter of this as well. Usually I prefer not to single ponies out from the horses in competition but this would be a definite exception that I could get behind fully.



Are you talking about Tracy? If you are, she had a HORRIBLE time selling those horses. She talked about it a lot on this forum.

Yes, tri, I was referring to Tracy. She did eventually sell those mares and to the same person I think.

[tempichange]

AH... I see now - I am so sorry - that REALLY was not what I meant AT ALL! The question mark was to see if the poster who suggested Mannhattan had read what your brief was, ie a small potential FEI level Dressage horse out of your 14.1hh Arab mare. It wasn't questioning the chances of breeding one from your mare, I was asking if she had seen that this was your intention along with the size of the mare.

LOL no it's also my fault, shouldn't have read into it. I'm trying to pick up German and I understand how things can be misconstrued between languages.

ExVet, drop me an email Heather already has and would love some further insight to the idea. Tempichange@hotmail.com

[Black Forest]

This "little" guy placed in an international Grand Prix at Zwolle (Holland) against some of the really big names - the class was won by Anky v.G....

http://www.ferienhof-stuecker.de/contents/hengste/pearcy_pearson.html

Not quite right for the Arab mare in question as the stallion is 15hh-ish so foal may or may not make 14.2hh and if it does it won't make that much over but quite an achievement nevertheless.

[arabs4sprt]

Wow! I read my name in the thread and I wasn't even asking a question!

I did indeed breed two of my mares to Mannhattan (with a try again last year but nobody got pregnant, my mares' problems not his) to get some lovely lovely Arab/warmblood mares. Thanks to Exvet for mentioning them. Thanks to Dawn for posting links to some pictures. Sierra and Sunrise finished up at 15.1 hands high each (Sunrise eventually caught up to Sierra), their mothers are 14.1 or so each, so they wound up exactly between Mannhattan and their moms. Both mares found wonderful homes with two delightful women who are, get this, sisters! The sisters bought sister mares! I got a very good price for the pair of them but even more importantly they are loved. They are now renamed Misty and Bella respectively and are quite the delights of their owners. The interesting thing is that right after I sold them I started getting a ton of inquiries about them.

A friend of mine bred her Arabian mare, a cousin of my mares, to Mannhattan to get a very tall gelding, Zamann, I think Dawn posted a link to him. The mare was 14.3, just a little taller than my Arabian mares. Zamann is approaching 16.2 and still a bit gangly (honestly, I measured him with a stick last year in February at 16.1). Mannhattan is 16.2. So go figure.

I learned a lot from my two babies and from my friend's gelding. Mostly that people who buy these horses (Arab/warmbloods) tend to keep them, which means there are not that many on the market. The market for a smaller warmblood has opened up significantly in the last two years as smaller women learn that they prefer a horse that is matched well to them. And that what makes them harder to sell than a large warmblood is lack of training, train them and people will buy them. If I had had a good trainer earlier on I would have sold them much sooner. Good trainers are much harder to find than good horses.

Bella/Sunrise's mother is now pregnant with a Connemara/Arab foal sired by the Irish Connemara stallion, *Gun Smoke! I'm so excited! This is one I might keep for myself (depends if I get a filly or colt, and what color it is). He's 15 hands, she's 14.1.

Another offspring from one of my CMK Arabian mares is the Arab/warmblood Inshallica, sired by Ideal. She is 15.1 hands tall. Her mother was 14.2 or 14.3, we never put a stick on her. Ideal is 16.1, I think. Anyway my friend who owns her is now breeding her to a Welsh stallion for a Sport Pony.

Exvet, thank you for remembering my beautiful ladies, please send me an email soon (arabs4sprt@aol.com).

[arabs4sprt]

Oh one other note, in contrast to what Tri said, my Arab/warmblood mares seemed to love jumping once they got the hang of it (I'm no good at it but they are). Their new owners while not seriously interested in pursuing jumping careers wanted horses that could jump should they decide to go that route. It was the mares' versatility that was most appealing. So in point of fact the ability to jump was of value in their sale even though it was not paramount.

[hluing]

Tracy...I remember admiring your mares a few years ago. It is interesting to learn you Arabian mares are CMK. I just learned my Arabian mare is a CMK/Davenport and she made such a nice GRP foal for me this year.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2474078]This "little" guy placed in an international Grand Prix at Zwolle (Holland) against some of the really big names - the class was won by Anky v.G....

http://www.ferienhof-stuecker.de/contents/hengste/pearcy_pearson.html

QUOTE]

Power Boy....dang...I have not heard his name in more than a decade...do you have any pic links....he was an impressive guy...

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

never mind found his pic on all breed

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/power+boy

sighhhh.....

Tamara in TN

[arabs4sprt]

Hluing, Thank you! Yes my Arabian mares are CMK (which typically includes some Davenport breeding). It's a good bloodline because they are more old-style, more typical of what you might have seen 100 years ago than in the show world today, and because they are sensible. What stallion was your German Riding Pony sired by? My friend with the Arab/warmblood mare out of one of our mares is breeding to Wedderlie Mardi Gras.

My oldest mare, now 22 years old, is Fable Cachet (PHP Dazl x Shei-Lance Gita). I would LOVE to get another foal from her but she was biopsied last year and had a Type IIb, so she will be very expensive to breed if at all possible.

The next one is Misty Mithril (Shalimar Jordie x Fable Cachet) and she's 17 this year. She has cervical adhesions which occurred due to damage when she lost a foal very late in pregnancy. Since I didn't try to breed her for a while after that we didn't know about the cervical adhesions until last year. Now that we do know about them we are treating them and they are responding but the vet is worried that if she gets pregnant we might lose her to complications. He's saying this year we treat her, next year we examine her with an endoscope, then we discuss options which may include breeding her if the scope shows she doesn't have too much scarring or embryo transfer might be a possibility.

The third Arabian mare we have is Misty Cinnamon, full sister to Misty Mithril, she's the one that is pregnant with the *Gun Smoke foal.

We also at one time had a lovely mare that was a half-sister to Mithril and Cinnamon, Fancy Chime (Shalimar Jordie x AM Silva Chime), also CMK. And my friend Jan had a beautiful mare, Fable Zama (Ruminaja Fayez x Shalimar Zuni) she was half-Egyptian/half-CMK. Jan's Mannhattan gelding, Zamann is out of that mare. All of them were approved with ISR/Oldenburg N.A.

Listen, I thought about something else that I think has an effect on marketability of these horses. That is your location. If you are located on either coast you are in good shape to market your Arab/warmbloods, but if you are anywhere in the middle of the country or even just inland you may have more difficulty. It might simply be because the numbers of people looking for horses is greater on the coasts and because the number of breeders per horseperson is less there. I found that I often had inquiries from California but people were not willing to traipse across the desert to see the horses. Here in Tucson I actually had one trainer tell me that if the horse was not imported from Europe none of the local riders would look at it, peculiar quirk of the local riders to say the least. Of course that's just a case of people thinking that good horses are never in their own backyards. My buyers came from the Phoenix area, so same state but different city. I should also say that you won't find too many Arab/warmbloods horses being competed professionally, not because they can't but rather because the people that buy them are more interested in a lifelong companion, they tend not to like to send them out for some other person to ride.

[hluing]

Tracy,
My GRP foal is by Highlife's Bodyguard and turned out even better then I had expected. I had worried a bit about marketing her since she is 1/2 arabian...but she turned out so nice that I am keeping her. Problem solved! I would love to rebred the mare but she has had some fertility issues and I am not up to taking the risk with frozen semen. It has been great to learn about these CMK arabians...I have always loved my mare and felt she was different then most of the arabians I have seen...now I know why and that there are others like her;)

[tempichange]

Right now, I've pretty much decided on the first breeding. If all goes well, I plan on doing the breederless broodmare/broodmare breederless thing and free lease her. But the second breeding though oh boy... pony world look out! I like what I see there, but one step at a time.

Arabs, I'm in Lexington, apparently we're getting the Sport Horse Nationals in a few years and there is a strong contigancy of "ayrab" people out here. I plan on pointing the eventual foal towards ISR/Old book with having the dam approved prior.