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View Full Version : BNT Clinics being dominated by AA's



Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 11:39 AM
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caffeinated
May. 9, 2007, 11:43 AM
is it first-come first-serve?

If not, it probably should be. And then the professionals just need to pay attention and sign up quickly.

KatieE
May. 9, 2007, 11:44 AM
Could you encourage the BNT to come up an additional time to teach the pros in the area? Or to alternate: one session pros only, other session aa's?

ania
May. 9, 2007, 11:45 AM
It sounds like something is amiss with the organization. I know at some clinics they will try to mix up the levels being shown so that auditors get the most out of the clinic (as do the riders). The organizers should limit the amount of lower level lessons at the clinic and reserve some spots for the upper levels (which I'm guessing would be the pro's in this situation).

xQHDQ
May. 9, 2007, 11:45 AM
Or the BNT does an invitation-only clinic for professionals only.

Maybe 1 day for AA and 1 day for professionals?

Is there a reason why this BNT can't dictate who they teach?

Dalfan
May. 9, 2007, 11:46 AM
You are assuming that the professional riders would take those spots if open. Are you sure that's true?

Equibrit
May. 9, 2007, 11:47 AM
Why should they give up their rides in favor of a "Pro"? They are paying for tuition and should get their money's worth. It does not follow that an AA is less deserving of good teaching than a "Pro".

Pro has the same opportunity as the AA - why haven't they taken it?

You can have more clinics or have clinics for multiple days - this is not rocket science!

If you have something more people want then make it more available.

On the other hand you could do the unpopular thing and make it more "Exclusive".

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
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Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 11:51 AM
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Kyzteke
May. 9, 2007, 11:52 AM
As someone else stated, it's not rocket science. At the next clinic (or before) approach BNT and stay you have X number of pros who would like to clinic with him/her next time and could he/she please schedule and extra day?

If that BNT can't/won't do it, find another. It's not like there is a shortage of "BNT" in this country.

Sometimes I wonder if there are any left in Germany...

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 11:55 AM
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lizathenag
May. 9, 2007, 11:56 AM
clinics are not usually democracies. The clinic organizer is certainly able to say who rides in the clinic. If a rider is unhappy about being bounced, they can organize their own clinic and populate it however they want.

Organizing clinics is hard work. Many riders don't realize that.

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 11:57 AM
perhaps the local pros need to get together and contract with another BNT - certainly there is more that one out there that they could learn from?

my BO has brought in clinicians for many years - her boarders and students get the opportunity to ride with them and then outsiders if it is not filled from within the barn - my BO takes care of the housing/feeding/scheduling/transport/etc and gets her rides paid for - the students get excellent training

Equibrit
May. 9, 2007, 11:58 AM
Looks like you may have to up the anti and "upgrade" your event to a "Symposium". Have some kind of theme (upper level) and then invite applications. This may be the only way that you can avoid upsetting the regular participants and make the change. After having a success with the new format it would make sense to continue the new type of event. You will have to make extra effort to set the new format apart from the old. Getting another trainer in to teach the less adavanced riders would then make them feel more cared for. (Does said BNT have an assistant?)

merrygoround
May. 9, 2007, 12:36 PM
This is typical of any organization. There is always a clique, and non members are left with the leftovers. The only recourse is to set up a clinic of their own.

There are talented instructors out there who are not BNT's ,yet. It takes time and energy, but someone should be able to sleuth them out. :yes:

angel
May. 9, 2007, 12:48 PM
Four thoughts for all your sour grapes: 1)There are plenty of amateurs that do a better job than some of your local "pros"; 2) There are plenty of "pros" that cannot properly sit the trot either; 3) If the locals did a better job in teaching the local amateurs, the BNT would not have to spend so much time on the basics with the amateurs; 4) Why not organize your own clinics if there are actually enough of you "pros" in the area, or guarantee to the clinic organizer that you will fill a third day. In my area, what I have seen is that there is lots of whiney going on, but when it comes to actually coughing up the money, there is a lot of folk sitting on their hands allowing the clinic organizer sweat as to if she will be left holding the bag or not to pay for the clinician.

AndalusianMom
May. 9, 2007, 12:56 PM
How about having all or some of the clinic openings given on a "lottery" basis--pull names out of a hat or something. All interested have to submit their names by a certain date, then the lucky participants are chosen at random.

Sandra6500
May. 9, 2007, 12:56 PM
Well I think some of you guys are lacking reading comprehension here...

the OP has stated that they have tried to get more days but cannot make that happen.

She has also stated that the clinic organizer has a long standing list of people that always ride with said BNT and they have first dibs.

The only advice I could give is to go to the clinic organizer. Some BNT do dictate who they teach but it doesn't sound to be the case here so its up to the clinic organizer.

If she won't do anything about it you are SOL I'm afraid.

eurofoal
May. 9, 2007, 01:31 PM
We had a slew of this kind of politiks in my old GMO... a small group of mostly very poor riders with lots of clout and no desire to share. It seemed to improve when more clinicians showed up on the scene... then, for cost,time or philosphical reasons, the riders kind of branched out, leaving some room in all the clinics for others.

Perhaps that would help?

tarnia
May. 9, 2007, 01:41 PM
Why is there a pre-established list of people? Whose control is that under? I will assume the clinic organizer. Why doesn't she open it up to either first-come, first-served or "you rode before, so you get 2nd dibs) or some such? It doesn't sound off-the-cuff like a good business proposition as it stands-the BNT isn't happy, so may well leave given that according to you most others have; and a decent percentage of the population aren't happy-the 'pros'. Have you tried petitioning the clinic organizer? Preferably with a consensus of as many ppl as possible and DEFINITELY with the support of the BNT. If the pros can honestly commit such that if they replaced the aa, the same amount of revenue should be coming in; however people are overall happier! (Well except maybe the aa's...BUT if an equal number of pros replace, you have even numbers, + the BNT=vote in favour! :p Yes I'm oversimplifying but still). As an aa, well actuallly I don't even show yet:p, I can sympathize why they would want to ride in this special opportunity; however I would understand perfectly why someone would want this opportunity to be shared. Clinics at my barn are; if I rode in x clinic last month and there are a bunch of ppl that want it this month I certainly understand if I get requested to give in...esp if it is more like I rode in the last 10 clinics and someone rode in none! ;) As an aside-just because someone can get help from a local coach doesn't mean they want to/don't want to ride under Anky! :p A second point of view can sometimes clear the waters...and many of us realize that. Not that that means they should get DIBS EVERY time.

As the above poster said, if the clinic organizer flatly refuses to change things, you're stuck. Perhaps you could organize your own, as earlier posted, even if it means booking a day with the BNT say a year in advance in order to get a day she is free, a suitable facility is available, etc etc. I'm assuming here that the current clinic organizer has days prebooked/reserved.

If the only thing scaring previous BNTs away was the aa content, if you contacted them with the condition it would be pros only, by invitation only, whatever...couldn't that resolve the issue?

AmericaRunsOnDunkin
May. 9, 2007, 01:44 PM
Sorry, what does BNT mean?

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 01:47 PM
if it is a clinic organized by a private barn - then they get to choose (subject to their agreement with the clinician) - they organized, paid, risked,......thus, they choose

if it is a clinic organized by a gmo or club - that's a whole different matter

Speedy
May. 9, 2007, 01:52 PM
As an AA, it seems more typically the other way around - the AAs want to ride in a clinic, but have to apply (often with video and competition resume), and they are not selected due to a preference for the pros - the focus is really on the auditors, and the clinician and riders are there to demonstrate the clinician's techniques to the auditors.

So, if this clinician is willing to teach lower level AAs, I think that's a nice change and a wonderful opportunity for the AAs - they are smart to want to take advantage of that. Kudos to both the clinician and the AAs for doing it!

If the clinician doesn't enjoy teaching AAs, it is up to the clinician to tell the organizer to modify the selection process to allow for more pros. If the clinician doesn't take that step, then I think you have your answer - the pros who want to ride so desperately are either underestimating the skills of the AAs or overestimating their own skills, or it may be the clinician's preference, for some (presumably unfathomable) reason to teach lower level AAs now and then.

Anyway, it strikes me as kinda refreshing.

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 01:54 PM
another scenario that I've seen

Organizer finds a Clinician that is not yet BNT - likes their teaching style and has them come back on a regular basis

Clinician goes on to become BNT - then all and sundry clamor to get into the clinics which have been consistentlyfilled for many moons and which the masses never showed interest in before

SillyHorse
May. 9, 2007, 01:54 PM
Sorry, what does BNT mean?
Big Name Trainer

I think angel made a good observation - why aren't the local pros developing AAs that can ride well enough not to be "wasting" the BNT's time? I put "wasting" in quotes because I think any clinician worth his or her salt will teach the person who's paying the fee to the best of his or her ability. Time spent improving one's riding is never wasted, IMHO.

My suggestion is that you organize your own clinics, and fill them with whomever you want. If there are that many people who want to ride with BNTs, you shouldn't have any problem filling your own clinics.

Patch
May. 9, 2007, 01:56 PM
Sorry, what does BNT mean?

BNT = big name trainer

There is a whole section of acronyms in the frequently asked questions (FAQ's) thread under the main group in the 'technical section' :)

Oops Sillyhorse beat me too it!!

inca
May. 9, 2007, 01:59 PM
Got to agree - if you don't like it, organize your own clinic and you can only let pros ride in it since it is your clinic. And you will find out what a PITA it is to organize clinics!

eqsiu
May. 9, 2007, 02:21 PM
What does AA and GMO mean? Since it wasn't in the thread posted above. :)

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 02:23 PM
adult amateur

group member organization (of usdf = united states dressage federation)

Velvet
May. 9, 2007, 02:29 PM
Having organzied a lot of clinics, you have to appreciate the organizers perspective on this. It's not that it's always a cliche. Usually it's because the people who first made the commitment with their funds are still the people they can count on to keep the clinic full and make it possible for them to keep bringing the clinician back. It's not democratic, it's good business. You don't let people vote new people in, you keep the good customers happy so you can keep bringing in your clinician. If the trainers/instructors want to ride, then they have to get on the list or be very flexible and willing to fill a last minute opening (to move up to the top of that list).

If you're really upset, then I agree with what someone else said. Bring in your own BNT. There are plenty out there who are really good. Organize your own clinic. You'll reap the benefit of the rewards, and you'll also have walked a mile in the organizer's shoes.

ideayoda
May. 9, 2007, 02:30 PM
So, whats so hard???? Hire the bnt yourself for the proffi group.

mmt
May. 9, 2007, 02:38 PM
Look, if those professionals in question really want to train with the BNT, then they should organize their own clinic and do it invitation only with anyone able to come audit or add on days to existing clinics. It is not rocket science.

Ilex
May. 9, 2007, 02:46 PM
In my neck of the woods....

BNT are brought in by local successful trainers....usually it's the local trainers regular trainer. In order to secure them coming back repeatedly, the local trainer fills the spots w/the his/her students first. Then opens up the left over spots to outside students.

My suggestion......

If this is someone that you really want to ride with. Send a DVD or video clip of you and your horse to the BNT. Along w/a really nice accurate description of your horse, you and your goals. Tell them your willing to do what it takes to ride w/them on a regular basis.

It's really up to the BNT to decide. But IMHO...if you and your horse and interesting.....they will find a way to make it happen. If they are traveling in maybe you could get a lesson the night before....or maybe they would be willing to stay an extra hour to accommodate you.

If they won't do it....they maybe it's time for the Professionals in your area to band together and bring in a BNT just for the group.

Anyway....I am interested in finding out how you get this resolved. Good Luck!

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 02:56 PM
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mickeydoodle
May. 9, 2007, 02:57 PM
I organize a BNT clinic, sometimes monthly in the summer, whenever we can get him. I have often extended an invite to the pros in the area, I have advertised, etc. Only one local pro has ever wanted to ride in the clinic. I would be happy to work the local pros into the clinic, but no takers.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 02:59 PM
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swgarasu
May. 9, 2007, 03:04 PM
4th time now, this BNT has NO EXTRA TIME!!

In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?

FIND SOMEONE ELSE.

For a good amount of money and enough advance notice, you can get someone else, someone that is a BNT, and likely someone JUST AS GOOD. You're just whining and not doing anything, and whenever anyone suggests something, you say "No."

If you can't learn from anyone else, it's because you don't really want to.

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 03:08 PM
even if you convinced one or more of the AAs to give up their regular spot to you and/or your 'more deserving' buddies - does not mean that those that it 'is more beneficial' according to your opinion would be the ones to get the slots

you need to talk with the ORGANIZER OF THE CLINIC rather than telling the AAs that they are wasting clinician's time

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 03:13 PM
"Locally, we have a BNT come in every 6 weeks, for 2 days, ...... if the local trainers were able to take advantage of this great opportunity. Unfortunately, only 2 of the riders in the clinics are professionals."

who is "we" - who organizes/decides?

Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 03:17 PM
I can see your point of view, but it offends me. I am an AA. I have a regular weekly coach and I organize a clinic with a BNT, who both my coach AND I ride with. I take the financial risk of not filling the clinic, as well as the reward of having a secured clinic spot. If, at some point, our BNT became so popular that I had pros banging down the door wanting to ride and insisting I give up my clinic spot for them and take all my teaching from them, I would tell them, politely, to eff off.

My own trainer admits that the BNT is better than ANYONE locally. That is why they are a BNT. That is why trainers want to ride with them. That is why I want to ride with them. BTW, I am not taking up/down lessons. LOL!

BTW, one of the biggest holes in training locally is the failure to really understand, teach and train correct basics and a true understanding of the training scale. When a BNT is teaching someone that is not a pro, it is easier for them (and more Politically Correct than when they are working with a pro) to focus on the basics and I find that, personally, more interesting to watch than clinics full of pros. Generally speaking, when I watch a clinic full of pros, most who NEED work on their basics, the BNT is not going to embarrass those pros or touch it with a ten foot pole. If they do, they are not asked back. So generally, when the pros are riding in the clinics there is no guarantee that their own riding and training is going to get enhanced enough for trickle down to the masses. That is your argument, but it often doesn't happen IRL.

Finally, I do not understand why you cannot get the organizer to ask the BNT to add two more rides. My BNT will do a minimum of 8 or a maximum of 10 rides. The rides are 40 minutes.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 03:20 PM
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SGray
May. 9, 2007, 03:23 PM
constructive suggestion for you - search on threads for "favorite clinician" and similar terms - see who people think are great instructors - contact any that interest you - if they are available, organize a clinic, inviting all pros in your area

mp
May. 9, 2007, 03:28 PM
In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

You can't. They apparently think they get more out of riding with the BNT than riding with their trainers. Telling them they should sit in the corner (even diplomatically) while "we pros" ride will just make them angry.


Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?

Perhaps. But first you need to convince them they'll learn more and make more progress from daily lessons taught by BNT-trained pros than from riding with the BNT themselves. I don't know any other way to do that, other than by being a very good instructor. ;)

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 03:29 PM
"I have alternate options, with even bigger BNT's."

- why not invite the local pros to ride in your clinic with the 'even bigger BNT'?

LisaW-B
May. 9, 2007, 03:31 PM
Have you talked to the clinic organizer?

riveau
May. 9, 2007, 03:31 PM
Why not offer one of the AA a series of lessons with you at a steeply discounted rate. In exchange, you take their spot in the BNT clinic. That way, you get to ride with the BNT and they get lots of regular, quality, inexpensive training.

ideering
May. 9, 2007, 03:32 PM
I think in many areas of life, a "train the trainer" approach works well.

However, riding and teaching are two separate skill sets so I am not comprehending how there's any guarantee that if the pros get in to ride with this BNT (at the expense of an equal number of loyal AAs giving up their spots) that these AAs are going to benefit from improved teaching. Maybe, maybe not... but not a slam dunk. The pros' riding is likely to improve, but again I'm not seeing a guaranteed big-picture payoff to the scenario.

I'm also interested in how the OP knows with certainty what the motivations of all these AAs are for tenaciously hanging on to their clinic spots. :confused: I'd think that one or two rides with him/her would be enough to establish The Prestige Factor, but if they're that loyal then there must be something more to it?

ideayoda
May. 9, 2007, 03:34 PM
Have you personally talked with the bnt about an extra day? Most would rather work with more experienced riders.

philosoraptor
May. 9, 2007, 03:34 PM
Approach the clinic organizer. And with their permission, you can also approach the BNT.

Suggestion: add a 2nd day to the clinic, one for amateurs and one for pros. BNT gets double the clients. You get a full day of watching pros. The only issue is that it's ALOT of work to get people to come to a clinic, and if you want a change you should be doing the extra work. Can you assure clinic organizer that you have enough pro trainer associates will will definitely attend?

You may find that there just aren't enough pros who have the time, money, & interest to fill a whole day's timeslots. In the end the AA's may be doing you a favor because their participation ensures the BNT will come regularly.

Tucked_Away
May. 9, 2007, 03:43 PM
The BNT has said, specifically, that her time would be MUCH better spent teaching the pros. but it is not her decision who is in the clinics (said again)

So if

1. The pros want to train with this specific BNT and
2. The BNT would rather train the pros than the amateurs and
3. These is the only possible dates on which the BNT will be available

have you talked with the BNT about

3. Ending the contract with the farm currently hosting the clinics and starting a new contract with the pros?

If, as you say, she really wants to teach the pros that badly and if, as you say, there are enough committed pros to make it worth her while, then she would presumably be happy to make it happen...no?

(I do think this would be a lousy thing to do to the farm that's currently hosting and to the riders there, and I wonder how you know that the ammies are interested in prestige rather than education. Have they said this? Or is it just your guess?)

J-Lu
May. 9, 2007, 03:43 PM
4th time now, this BNT has NO EXTRA TIME!!

In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?

To me it sounds as if there is more to this story than meets the eye. It sounds like this is someone else's long-standing clinic that is filled with their students and other AAs who move heaven and earth to show up each time in order to keep their slot. It also sounds like the BNT might rather teach professionals but at the end of the day remains perfectly happy walking out the door with a large check from AAs. Plus, BNT may secretly enjoy watching AAs develop and may feel some obligation to keep supporting the clinic organizer - if he/she didn't, he/she wouldn't come back anymore. If BNT can't squeeze in another day for professionals, then this BNT isn't THAT committed to working with the professionals in your area. Of course, if BNT is really a *B*NT, then they probably get this complaint everywhere they go.

At our barn, the owner's horses have priority and then boarders/clients get first crack at our regular BNTs. Outside professionals can only get in if there are open slots - that's just how it is.

It sounds like you want "in" on someone else's clinic but are unhappy that you can't get in so you want to convince the regular clientele to "go away" and open up spaces. You can't "take over" someone else's clinic, you can't tell then how to fill it (although you can ask politely for a slot each time), and you can't interfere with what sounds like a long-term relationship between BNT and clinic organizer. This would make YOU look bad locally. Lastly, it is unprofessional for any BNT (or LNT) to drop steady clients in favor of another group.

If you can't get into this clinic and BNT won't give you an extra day (YES I KNOW you already asked and they said no), then find another BNT. It's your only option. I have no doubt that if you have a goup of professionals on hand with $$, you can find another good BNT to come give a clinic.

J.

Shay Darra
May. 9, 2007, 03:47 PM
You're saying that this BNT comes every month, and, we're assuming makes a living in large part from teaching/giving clinics, and is completely booked for every other possible training day for the entire year? Of is it that BNT is booked on the only days you want him/her? I'm having difficulty understanding that there is just no possibility of organizing a different time/date/place for this person to come, assuming you can assure him/her that you can fill all clinic spots. May take a while to get on the calendar, but if the demand is as high as you infer, I don't see why this person wouldn't try to work with you.

I just have to believe that if approached from a very positive, flexible vantage point that this BNT wouldn't want to work something out with you - even if you have to begin by starting with a date for next year.

SD

ania
May. 9, 2007, 03:53 PM
Ok- who cares about scheduling another day. Clearly the OP is saying that isn't an option. The problem is not the amount of time that the BNT has (well, maybe, but not really). The problem is in organization.
OP said something about the clinic being supposed public. Well clearly it is not or something is going on where people cannot get on the list. That's not going to change by talking to the AAs about the importance of the pro's getting a chance to ride in the clinic. Talk to the organizer. Ask if they can/want/are interested in having a session with pro's riding in it. Otherwise- hate to say it, but you're SOL. Go find a different BNT to get out there and organize your own clinic.

Lambie Boat
May. 9, 2007, 03:53 PM
Perhaps this does not apply in this case, but I know of more than a handful of BIG BIG NAME Trainers who would rather teach AA low level riders, because pros or advanced riders tend to think they know everything already, they have lots of excuses why they do it their way, they bring all their friends or students and just want to show off and then brag they rode with this BNT (drop the name all the time), they are smug and elitist and superior and look down their noses at AA lower level riders on their grade horses. Eventually, most older BBNT want to develop a list of advanced riders on great horses doing well in the showring for their own legacy as a trainer. But honestly, the $ is the same no matter where it comes from, and many many many clinicians are going thru the motions for the money anyhow.

To OP, regarding your BNT, honestly, she has the last word on who she teaches. If she wants a clinic full of made dressage folk, and there is enough to fill all the slots, she is well within her rights to pick up that clinic and drop the low level one. She'd burn a bridge and hurt lots of feelings, but lots of trainers couldn't care less

Ilex
May. 9, 2007, 04:04 PM
As an AA......

I can say generalizations about Professionals work in the same way as sweeping generalizations about AA's.

For example......In my area (Western PA) I can tell you that it's really really hard to find a local trainer who is as intuitive and as good of a teacher as the International BNT who comes in for a clinic stint every 6-8 weeks. He is so much better actually that I dropped my regular trainer to afford to ride w/him and work w/a ground person and a video camera in between time. My skill level took a big jump.

THE ONLY WAY that I would have given up my spot in w/him would be if a local trainer came along....and proved to me that they could teach as well as him.

Sorry to say it......as an AA who is serious about dressage.....I deserve my chance as much as you.

Of course your not in my area and I'm not in yours!

Sdhaurmsmom
May. 9, 2007, 04:14 PM
Really, what's in it for the AAs if they give up their slots? You're suggesting that they could just pick up the knowledge from the local trainers, after the local trainers have absorbed it from the BNT. But there's no guarantee someone who's a local trainer will be able to transmit that knowledge; or that the AAs feel comfortable training with any given local trainer. Perhaps they feel the BNT is going to give them more correct basics than the local trainer! And considering the state of dressage education over much of the US, they're likely to be right.:lol:

Maybe you need to be satisfied with the 'even bigger BNGs' that you already study with. I looked on your website and the two you list are plenty good! :)

The AAs are informed consumers and they're making the choices they feel are the best for their riding. Everyone needs to do this for themselves, in the town and situation they find themseves in.

SGray
May. 9, 2007, 04:32 PM
feisomeday wrote "Perhaps this does not apply in this case, but I know of more than a handful of BIG BIG NAME Trainers who would rather teach AA low level riders, because pros or advanced riders tend to think they know everything already, they have lots of excuses why they do it their way, they bring all their friends or students and just want to show off and then brag they rode with this BNT (drop the name all the time), they are smug and elitist and superior and look down their noses at AA lower level riders on their grade horses. "

sad but true - even saw this happen (pro rider not acting on instruction given) at a national USDF Symposium

(pro didn't seem to realize that she made herself look like an a** in the process)

not saying this is what's happening with Gucci - but surely if the BNT wanted to teach the pros then the BNT would get the organizer to include more of them - say add two so that it would be half AA/half pro

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 04:47 PM
b

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 04:51 PM
b

swgarasu
May. 9, 2007, 04:57 PM
organize a clinic, inviting all pros in your area

Agreed. If you don't like how someone else does it, do it yourself. If you set up a clinic, get your "even bigger BNT", and let your local pros ride, the "community" will still benefit. That ought to more than make up for the other BNT that teaches AAs and not Pros.

And as for the original BNT that would rather teach Pros, if that's so-- he/she would do it. They'd say, "I really want to teach so and so instead of this person, and if that can't happen, I'll have to go to Gucci's clinic every other month." Trainers drop students all the time. It's not right, but it happens. I think anyone that really wants to learn and tries their best deserves to, and if someone else learns by watching, that's just gravy.

And I use Cheer.

eqsiu
May. 9, 2007, 05:01 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

LisaW-B
May. 9, 2007, 05:03 PM
The bottom line is that there's nothing you can do about it, then. If the organizer won't change things or add another day, and if the clinician is too busy to stay an extra day or come for additional clinics just for some of the pros, then what's left would be trying to convince AAs to give up their slots -- and that's impossible and would be unfair, anyway. I know you think you're deserving, but so are they. I mean, really, who are you or anyone else to ask someone to give up their ride? And, if you're working on establishing a name as a local trainer, approaching an AA to ask them to give up their ride for you *will* make you look really, really bad, no matter what your intentions might be. You have to consider your reputation, and how small the world is. All you can do is keep your name on the waiting list, and look elsewhere for clinic opportunities, or be happy with what's available to you elsewhere. Try not to be so envious of the two pro riders who DO get to ride in these clinics. Instead, make the most of the opportunities you do have, and look into binging in someone else in for additional clinics that you can organize into something more suited to you and the handful of pros you've talked to about it. Start your own clinics.

swgarasu
May. 9, 2007, 05:03 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

LOL...:lol:

Horsepower
May. 9, 2007, 05:11 PM
Why not take some private lessons with a BNT? Make your own arrangements (you and a small group if you need a group to attract the BNT).

Bogey2
May. 9, 2007, 05:18 PM
have your own clinic?

mp
May. 9, 2007, 05:44 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

Good answer, and one that could be applied to so many posts on this BB. :lol:

PiedPiper
May. 9, 2007, 06:07 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

My thoughts exactly except I had another word for whining.

What is the point to posting this if all options are not possible? What is there to discuss? I guess tell the AA to bugger off. Well good luck with that.

Touchstone Farm
May. 9, 2007, 06:43 PM
J-Lu wrote:
"It sounds like you want "in" on someone else's clinic but are unhappy that you can't get in so you want to convince the regular clientele to "go away" and open up spaces. You can't "take over" someone else's clinic, you can't tell then how to fill it (although you can ask politely for a slot each time), and you can't interfere with what sounds like a long-term relationship between BNT and clinic organizer. This would make YOU look bad locally. Lastly, it is unprofessional for any BNT (or LNT) to drop steady clients in favor of another group.

If you can't get into this clinic and BNT won't give you an extra day (YES I KNOW you already asked and they said no), then find another BNT. It's your only option. I have no doubt that if you have a goup of professionals on hand with $$, you can find another good BNT to come give a clinic."
......

I so agree with this....and I'd add that I find your categorization of AAs offensive. IF the BNT really didn't want to teach someone, he or she would say so to the organizer or, more appropriately, to that student(s). The fact that this trainer sticks with the same program to me says he really isn't that unhappy or feels loyal to the people who have supported the clinic for years. Most trainers are loyal to the organizer and students who have faithfully stuck with them and brought them business over the years. If they wanted changes made, they'd tell the organizer or quit coming.

I've been organizing private clinics (open for free to auditors) for 10+ years, and I would be offended if someone like you approached me and said that my clinic riders don't deserve their spots but that you do. I've taken the cost risk all these years; most of the riders have supported me for all those years. Your "entitlement" attitude would completely turn me off.

I'd agree with those who have said to find yourself another trainer (there is more than one fish in the sea) and organize your own clinics and quit complaining about who rides in someone else's clinics.

xQHDQ
May. 9, 2007, 06:51 PM
The OP really hasn't said how you get on this list for EACH INDIVIDUAL DATE. Shouldn't there be a new list each time that is filled on a first come, first served basis? - get on the list first (I want to book Sept. 26 even though its only May 9) Someone has to be in charge in the schedule - talk to that person about chaning the rules. "The demand for BNT has increased to a level where we want to give others a chance to ride... You can now only do 1 clinic a month with BNT...etc". I just don't understand how EVERY date can be prebooked so far in advance.

Pressure from the BNT to stop coming to the area should push the organizer to change the rules.


I think trying to convince the AA's not to clinic with this person is a little rude. I don't agree with the reason they want to ride with BNT is to be able to say they ride with XXX but if that's really what float's their boat - oh well. Are you really sure that's their reason or are they just proud that they ride with BNT and are bragging but really do get something constructive out of it?

Anselcat
May. 9, 2007, 07:02 PM
What is the point to posting this if all options are not possible? What is there to discuss? I guess tell the AA to bugger off. Well good luck with that.

Clearly the OP wants advice on HOW to tell the AAs to bugger off (from someone else's clinic), as she has already decided they SHOULD bugger off. And I have no advice to give, though I do like saying "bugger off".

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 07:09 PM
b

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 07:12 PM
b

Anselcat
May. 9, 2007, 07:22 PM
not sure why everyone has their panties in a knot,

And that's kind of the issue, IMHO. You don't seem to see the clinic organizer's perspective, or the AA's, or that 'fair to everyone' means different things depending on whose deciding what's fair.

A clinic that is 'open to the public' is not the same thing as a publicly funded clinic!

poltroon
May. 9, 2007, 07:29 PM
Like I said before, I have another trainer. This is not about me myself and I. And, as I have said before, it was the BNT herself who told me that she would rather teach the pros, and then have the pros teach the AA's. Please stop putting words into my mouth!! I just think it should be fair for all of us.

Life isn't fair. Might as well get that out of the way. :D

I used to do this kind of monthly clinicing, and the way it worked was that people who took slots all the time got the first phone calls. They said yay or nay. Then the organizer called the "occasionals" and got yays or nays until she filled the clinics. Some months there would be no slots. Some months there would be unfilled slots on the day. What a pain in the neck for her. But she did it, so she could have the lessons she needed/wanted. But I have to say a situation where for 10+ months on end there are no slots ever coming up is mighty unusual. Don't any of these AA's go to shows or have lives? :D

Equibrit
May. 9, 2007, 07:38 PM
Whoever said this had to be "fair"? Especially your kind of "fair".

Coreene
May. 9, 2007, 07:42 PM
fair sharing Life is not fair.

Let me put life into perspective for you. In the next hour or two, one of my best friends is going to die of lung cancer. She is 45. She has never smoked. She has two daughters, ages 11 and 8, and a loving husband, and 26 months ago she was already at Stage IV with maybe four months left to live.

Because she is a fighter and she tried every last thing possible, did more rounds of chemo than any one person could ever be expected take, tried every last possible experimental drug, etc., she has - with the grace of God - managed to eke out many, many more months.

And then I read a thread like this. No, there's no fair sharing. Life is not fair. Eqsui is absollutely right: You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

Ghazzu
May. 9, 2007, 07:47 PM
4th time now, this BNT has NO EXTRA TIME!!


So FIND SOMEONE ELSE!

So it isn't someone else local--are you trying to say that there isn't a BNT in the country willing to give a clinic to the pros in your area?
If so, I'd look long and hard at the attitude of the local pro's, because from what you've put forth here thus far, they sound like a bunch of whiners.
That might just be part of the "problem".




In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.


Gad, such humility.

carovet
May. 9, 2007, 08:14 PM
if you are that confident that you can fill a clinic on a monthly or every 6 weeks clinic with just pros in your area

and if your goal is just altruism because you don't need to work with anyone other than who you already do

then create a list of 10 clinicians that you think would appeal to your local pro group

send out the list and have everyone rank the pro's from 0 to 10 and have them return the list to you along with a check for $500 to reserve a spot (that you will only cash if you are able to schedule something)

then call the top ranked clinician, tell them that you guarantee that you can fill a clinic for them on whatever dates they have available....you may need to schedule this a year or more in advance.

then send the clinician a deposit and buy their plane ticket.

then do that every 6 weeks so that they consider you and your group a loyal client and keep making time for you in their busy schedule when they could do anything else that they want

i am confident that you can get someone to come if you send them a deposit on the day you take the date

they don't come back .....its not because of who rode with them, its because you can't consistently fill the clinic with intersting professionals that they need to work with.

its no big deal to fill a BNT clinic one time with local pros. getting on a 6 weeks schedule is a whole different universe and i challenge you to be the one putting it together so that everyone in your area can prove that they are dedicated enough to keep someone coming back

sounds like the lady putting the current clinic together is doing a great job and you should be grateful she has this BNT coming in for you to audit on a regular basis and allows you to come watch


good luck, it is a very worthwhile thing to organize these clinics, and no one makes enough money to pay for all the headaches they get doing it


BTW, thank you to all the clinic organizers that put on clinics!!!

mbm
May. 9, 2007, 08:20 PM
i am getting the impression that the OP seems to think that this clinic is like a federal park: public property and there should be some sort of program that allows each person to get their share of BNT usage. (equal time?))

well...... i dont think things work that way. if this is a clinic organized by an individual THEY are the ones taking risk, THEY are the ones putting the $$, THEY are the ones that have supported this BNT thu the years... and basically it is THEIR clinic to do as they see fit. and if they decided to allow no one to ride and just have an empty arena - that is their prerogative. .

and really, your idea that you should have a right to just step in a take over is rude.

and, having organized clinics, i can tell you that people saying "oh yes, i would Love to clinic with X" and then actually coughing up the bux, are really 2 different things. so, while you *think* all the pros would fill a clinic - i am willing to bet it wont happen. 1) becuase people talk big and lack follow thru, 2) pros HATE to ride with BNTs in front of the rabble (us ammies) 3) Pros HATE to take time off their paying clients to go take lessons.

and, if you area is anything like all the other areas i have been in: the ammies probably have good reason to believe that they are better served by passing the middle man altogether and going to the source where they KNOW they will be getting a good education.

so really, the bottom line is: you have no right to expect anything. if you want a clinic go organize one on your own. and let us know how it turns out and how many pros ride as opposed to ammies (who are the bread and butter of this sport) .

and, as for what the BNT told you: that is rude in and of itself and probably was just this person trying to make you feel better.

Sorry, i just dont think you have any leverage and no hope of weaseling your way in... unless of course an ammie happens to be reading this thread, knows who you are and offers you their spot in the clinic at a marked up rate.... maybe there is a profitable industry here :) ammies reselling their clinics spots!

oh! and also i wanted to say: why in the world would a clinic organizer push the paying customers off their list for an unknown who may or may not come through?

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 08:25 PM
b!!

mbm
May. 9, 2007, 08:33 PM
Ok, well, most people arent actually reading what I am writing, which is not surprising, but fine.

Not that big of deal guys!

I'm not going to repeat things a 6th time, its not worth it.

Apparently no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry to all the trainers in my town who wanted to learn from this particular person. I'm going to go back to my private lessons and try not to care about anyone else!!

????

who are you supposedly care for? the ammies? how is wanting to take thier education serving them and helping them?

but for fun, let's play: what exactly do you think is going to happen? you are going to go up to someone and say" sorry, but i decided you are too fat, unskilled, old, (fill in the blank) and are wasting the BNTs time so I have decided to better serve you, the (fat, unskilled, old) ammie, i am going to take your lesson instead. then, becuase i am so great as a person, i will filter the info down to you..... no worries that my issues are different than yours (editors note:or more likely they aren't) but us "pros" are jealous as hell that you get to ride with this awesome person and we dont get too <stomps feet>"

no? ok, then again: organize your own clinic! its not that hard! it does take a wad of cash tho and belief that it will all work out :)

good luck! :)

Bogey2
May. 9, 2007, 08:47 PM
Sorry to all the trainers in my town who wanted to learn from this particular person.

so, again...let THEM have a clinic! There are plenty of BNT's out there who would love to give a clinic to pro's. Honestly, don't any of these professionals have another facility they can use? Sounds like sour grapes or lazy people to me. Better yet, arrange to work with the person on a regular basis. No one OWES them anything when they themselves are putting out the effort for a clinic.

Speedy
May. 9, 2007, 08:52 PM
Me thinks BNT does not want to play with the "pros" and hasn't the heart to say that directly and so the schedule is "full." Sorry. At least you know BNT is NICE.

hb
May. 9, 2007, 08:52 PM
Get your group of pros together and organize your own clinic. It's not that difficult. If you are pros then at least one of you should have a suitable facility and it sounds like you have contact with the BNT. Get her over to your barn to teach you and your colleagues on a separate day from the clinic. Why keep trying to work through the organizer that already has the clinic set up the way they like it and doesn't want to accomodate you?

hb
May. 9, 2007, 09:02 PM
Apparently no good deed goes unpunished.

Complaining on a BB is a good deed now?

Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 09:15 PM
LOL! This thread had me thinking......What actually is a pro and why does one who IS a pro think they are better than the ammies? LOL!

I mean, in my region for example, I know a woman who just got herself into a barn and started training people. Her claim to fame is that she was a crash test dummy for a local sales/import barn. Yes she got to exercise alot of nice young horses. I know for a fact that she has not shown above second level (and I'm not certain she has shown second) and that she got there with a ton of help from the pro she was training with. This week I see an ad in our regional dressage magazine for her training business and she is claiming to train "begginers through FEI". LOL!

I know another woman who started riding dressage about four years ago. Through the grace of her generous husband, she went to Europe three times and took those crash dressage courses. Now SHE has her own training business, European Training through FEI (she got to ride some schoolmasters in Germany). LOL!

I can't tell you how many of our local pros started training professionally out of high school without a good base of knowledge. There is one I know who was a working student for a local trainer while she was in high school and got lent a client's horse to do the AYR thing and did ok, qualified, by basically learning how to ride the tricks. After high school, she disappeared to tend bar for two years and then came back and VOILA! she is now an FEI trainer. LOL!

We also have our share of pros who win, but get there in, well, not the classical way...i.e. devices, and lots of pushing and forcing, and resulting lameness issues from the horses being ridden front to back (and yes they do still win).

All of these people stay in business and some do quite well. The fact that they are paid for their services makes them a pro and they get a tax break for their horse expenses from the IRS. That is the only thing. It's not like they have to take a test or anything.

I think a pro should be someone who has made a successful horse or successful rider and I think they should have to prove it.

You absolutely have to know how offensive your post is to the amateurs on the board. We have already been given the message by USDF that we are not as important as the young riders that they provide top notch clinics for and training trips to Europe, etc. and now you are saying that amateurs should be last in line for local privately organized clinics. Many of us are frustrated by the lack of quality training on a local level.

No wonder so many of us are bringing in our own BNTs.

PiedPiper
May. 9, 2007, 09:23 PM
Ok, well, most people arent actually reading what I am writing, which is not surprising, but fine.

Not that big of deal guys!

I'm not going to repeat things a 6th time, its not worth it.

Apparently no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry to all the trainers in my town who wanted to learn from this particular person. I'm going to go back to my private lessons and try not to care about anyone else!!

So since when did you become the champion or spokesperson for these unnamed trainers? My impression of the human race is if something is desired enough then said humans find amazing amounts of energy to make something happen.

Sounds like y'all are just bitching and whining about this with no actual effort put forth to the contrary.

You have been given multiple solutions except for how to tell other adults that they aren't as worthy as others to have this BNT's time.

Life is too short for this b/s.

mbm
May. 9, 2007, 09:25 PM
Cowgirl: do you live in my neck of the woods? cause i think i know some of those "trainers" you are talking about!!! :)

Cowgirl
May. 9, 2007, 09:30 PM
LOL mbm! I would bet that every amateur in every region is familiar with those "trainers". It's the root problem in a profession where one does not have to pony up the credentials or results to charge for services. ;)

Velvet
May. 9, 2007, 09:33 PM
Gucci,

It seems you are either a troll, or you just don't want to hear the truth. Everyone out here is not telling you to go with this one BNT. So you can stop repeating yourself. The majority of people are telling you to get off your hobby horse and get your own BNT for clinics. It's not hard. As someone said, it's not rocket science.

Get off your backside and quit having a pity party. Go ahead and contact a bunch of BNTs that you'd like to have come out, see who's available, talk to the other local people who want to ride with a BNT and get them to help fill the clinic. It's not hard. It's a risk, but a they say, nothing ventured--nothing gained.

If you really are that good and need that level of help, you need to get up out of your barcalounger and do something to make your dreams come true. Don't look to only one BNT and never look to another person to organize the clinic you want to attend.

The sympathy train out here is only a few cars long, with good reason. Most of the people who have replied have a firm grip on reality and know what it takes to get where they want to go. If you're smart you will take their advice and stop making excuses.

(How's that for a tough love reply? :lol: )

Dutch Girl
May. 9, 2007, 09:36 PM
If the BNT would actually prefer teaching pros over ammies then it is up to the BNT to talk to the clinic organizer about it. I am an ammie and I ride in a monthly clinic with a BNT and I am not about to give up my spot for anyone. There is a core group and others are let in as space permits (usually only the winter when some go to FL). The clinic is about half and half with pros and ammies and everyone that enters the ring to ride with him is very dedicated to improving themselves and their horses.

The pros in your area should get together and select a clinician and start their own monthly clinics. That is the only option I see. You can't and shouldn't expect the ammies to step aside.

LisaW-B
May. 9, 2007, 10:25 PM
I tend to think that the seasoned profressional trainers in the area could speak up for themselves if they wanted to. ;)

Lookout
May. 9, 2007, 10:29 PM
The BNT has said, specifically, that her time would be MUCH better spent teaching the pros. but it is not her decision who is in the clinics (said again)
If that's the case, the BNT should say something and implement some changes. The fact that it's 'not her decision', doesn't make sense. No one is compelling her to teach these people are they? If she wants to teach them, she should, if she wants to teach others, she should. It makes no sense.

petitefilly
May. 9, 2007, 10:34 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

LOL... late to this debate, but I used to run clinics and the only way I had to fill them 100% was to be loyal to my tried and true returnees who wanted to fill the slots time and time again. Once a clinic is established with a core of riders there are always people who want to jump in and ride *the next time*. But who do you forbid from coming to your clinic? If the slots are taken, that's it for their dime. As eqsiu said= you're screwed.

This pro vs AAs is a big hubbub too. MHO if the pros rode a few times they would soon be not riding often enough to make a difference in the clinic make up. From my experience the local pros only want to take the clinic once or twice to *see how things go* and rarely stay on as a regular who pays up front, and will always be there for you when you want to fill those slots.

Either hike the price of the clinic up a notch and see who falls by the way side or engage another BNT to come for a second week end a month, but do something, because the whining about being excluded is really childish.

It really sucks to be a clinic organizer, you are doomed to be hated by someone for something! :(

xQHDQ
May. 9, 2007, 10:39 PM
Ok, well, most people arent actually reading what I am writing, which is not surprising, but fine.

!!

Okay...Let me see if we all have this straight then...

1. BNT mentioned that she thinks professionals would get more out of her clinics but is doing these as a favor for the BM. My take: its very nice that BNT is doing this favor and if she really didn't want to do it, she wouldn't. She's getting something out it, even if it is only a steady income.

2. Local trainers, not necessarily you, would like to ride with this BNT. My take: professionals can take clinics as tax breaks, just meaning that they have other options that AA don't have - look into other options like going to the BNT or getting another BNT. The monthly BNT lessons may be less expensive then trailering/flying to BNT but AA's can't claim any of it on taxes and pros can, so pros should take advantage of that.

3. These AA's don't seem to appreciate the instruction of BNT. My take: they obviously get something out of it, it may not be what you or I get out of it but it's something.

4. You are asking for our opinion about how to politely ask AAs to give up their spot. My take: that's not fair. I think you are just frustrated that THESE AA's don't seem to appreciate this trainer but you know that you and other pros would. See #3 - these AAs appreciate something about this BNT. Who are we to judge what that is.

Good luck.

petitefilly
May. 9, 2007, 10:46 PM
.

and really, your idea that you should have a right to just step in a take over is rude.

and, having organized clinics, i can tell you that people saying "oh yes, i would Love to clinic with X" and then actually coughing up the bux, are really 2 different things. so, while you *think* all the pros would fill a clinic - i am willing to bet it wont happen. 1) because people talk big and lack follow thru, 2) pros HATE to ride with BNTs in front of the rabble (us ammies) 3) Pros HATE to take time off their paying clients to go take lessons.

oh! and also i wanted to say: why in the world would a clinic organizer push the paying customers off their list for an unknown who may or may not come through?


THIS the truth. Anyone who is thinking about clinic organizing should read this at least a thousand times. Words to learn by.

In fact, I gave it all up eventually due to these primary facts. The Bux stop here and I cannot list all the people who ALWAYS wanted to ride and then came up with one lame excuse after another not to ride and left me holding the bag. People SUCK when push comes to shove when it deals with $$$$.

dressagerose
May. 9, 2007, 11:13 PM
I just want to echo petitefilly some. Just because all the other "pros" say they would like to ride with BNT does NOT mean that when push comes to shove the checkbook will come out and money will be forthcoming. Way more people will say they want to ride with someone then will actually go to the trouble of doing it. I think your local "pros" would not appreciate your efforts on their behalf nearly enough. I also agree with the sweeping generalizing that most pros are there so they can say that they trained with "BNT". Hard to believe that a spot won't open up at some point, so you can take a lesson. Good luck.

yaya
May. 9, 2007, 11:22 PM
Our GMO was having the same problem with our clinics filling up with the same people time after time (usually those who were friends with the organizer).

So we started running them like a show: we instituted an opening date and a closing date (but we usually fill before then). No applications to ride are accepted before the opening date, no applications are accepted without payment in full, and it is first come, first served.

Most of those same riders are still filling the clinics, but it's because they get their butts in gear and apply ON TIME and paid IN FULL. We do get new people, though because not everyone gets their act together on time and a few of the "regulars" had to learn that the hard way!

But this is a GMO, it sounds like the clinic you want in on is really a private clinic. Although they say "open to the public" I think that means anyone can watch or attempt to apply in case of an opening. That's better than some clinics that won't even let outsiders come watch.

Because it's a private clinic, you really have no say in how they run it, so you just have to get over it.

And pray none of the ammies in your area read your remarks here, or you may find your business slowing down somewhat.

tarnia
May. 10, 2007, 12:42 AM
I think some good and creative alternatives have been posted. Esp the person who spelled it out with deposits etc. Hopefully the colleagues of the OP can make one of them work.

As regards the original question-how to bump AA's-prob not possible unless clinician threatens not to come back unless it changes. If other clinicians as earlier posted have done so, might not seem like such an empty threat. Have any of the pros suggested this to the BNT? If the barn tells him/her to go jump in a lake, that frees up her time to teach the pros, which suits you all just fine. If not, pros can enter existing clinic. Win-win.

Be that as it may, since telling AA's they aren't deserving of a spot, or as the OP suggested making them realize it is in their best interest to do so (which is highly debatable) isn't likely, what about this:

Contact the regular participants of the clinic notifying them that you'd LOVE to clinic with the BNT, and you realize that they have first dibs but you were hoping that if they ever couldn't make it, they would contact you ahead of time...something along those lines. Not at all sure that would work either, as there is prob quite a waitlist, but on the off chance it would work....

Kathy Johnson
May. 10, 2007, 01:53 AM
we go and watch this BNT give up-down lessons on 20 meter circles for 6 hours,

It seems to me that if this BNT is coming in every six weeks for two days AND these people are getting good outside training from a regular instructor that they would not be up downers very long. They ought to be advancing pretty rapidly.

As a clinic organizer, I also always give first priority to the loyal clients, the ones who ride with the trainer regularly. If someone drops out or can't make a lesson, I go to the first on the waiting list. Loyalty deserves some reward. If the BNT doesn't want beginners that should be clear in the contract.

MsM
May. 10, 2007, 09:09 AM
It sounds like the organizer is a friend of the BNT, and so gets to have these regular clinics. Not surprisingly s/he fills it with people from the home barn and perhaps a few regulars. It is often a frustration around here when a barn announces an "open clinic" but the only spots are on the waiting list because the clinic is already filled with the regulars (even without the pro v AA controversy) But that is the way it works - the ones who organize get to fill their clinics as they see fit.
I find it hard to believe that a BNT is teaching people every six weeks that they don't want to teach! I can see a BNT being asked if it would be better for them to "train the trainer" saying that yes, that might be a good situation. However, I would not interpret that to mean that they are dissatisfied or feel their time is wasted. After all, if these "local pros" are watching their students (or similar) being trained in the basics by BNT, shouldnt that help them better instruct these and other students struggling with the same issues? Wouldnt that actually make them better instructors than perfecting their piaffe with BNT? Is it really about passing along info or about helping pros with higher competitive goals?
I also wonder if "all the pros" elected a spokesperson or if they would even agree with the OPs POV.
So, yeah, try to schedule your own clinic with BNT (perhaps in future years) or get over it and continue to clinic with others. It would be interesting to see how many pros would really commit to more than one clinic with any particular BNT on specific dates. IME riders, especially busy competitive riders with developed views on training, might say they would love to work with BNT regularly but when it gets down to it, many will not or cannot commit the regular time that the AAs do if they already have training with someone else.

nhwr
May. 10, 2007, 09:33 AM
In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.GC,

You don't seem to be making your point effectively to the people here. It is unlikely that you could do better with the AA clinic participants.

My take; clinic slot availability, like almost everything else, depends on the relationships you have developed in life. This relationship isn't simply. It depends on the history between the clinician and the organizer, the organizer and the participants and the clinician and the participants. Maybe also how outsiders (local pros) have responded to the odd invite in the past. But the bottom line is people don't repeatedly do things they don't like. So the BNT must be satisfied with the set up. The statement that he/she'd find teaching pros a better use of his/her time is most likely an attempt at polite evasion.

It is simply unrealistic to think that there is anything you can say the the AAs that will inspire them to give up their spots for pros if the situation is working for them. Why should they? If the BNT wanted to teach more pros, they'd be doing that. And if the BNT can't move the AAs along from up down lessons on a 20 meter circle, in reality the pros aren't missing much.

And it isn't your issue anyway. So why wad your knickers over it?

Anselcat
May. 10, 2007, 10:33 AM
Ok, well, most people arent actually reading what I am writing, which is not surprising, but fine. ...

I'm not going to repeat things a 6th time, its not worth it.

Right back at ya! :) Take a few minutes and read what most people are actually writing here.

eurofoal
May. 10, 2007, 10:43 AM
4th time now, this BNT has NO EXTRA TIME!!

In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?


If your only option to get into THIS clinic, with THis instructor, is to replace somebody that's already riding in it regularly, well, you're pretty much up the creek. The trainer won't put you in, the organizer has you on the list and that's that, and the clinics are full full full.

Hmmmmm, so how to approach the actual riders to get a slot? I think that you really can't step right up to the AA's and tell them that you deserve the spot more than they do. There's just no way that a conversation along those lines will do anything but make them really, really mad. Surely they are feeling pretty boosted up by the whole experience, as proven by the fact that they keep coming back. Surely they know that you want in, as evidenced by your auditing the clinics and being on the waiting llist.

Sooooo, where does tthat leave you? How about bribery instead of cunning? Are any of the actual riders your own students? You could offer to give a free lesson in exchange for a slot. If that fails, well, sweep the knee.

exvet
May. 10, 2007, 10:51 AM
I'm not sure but if Gucci Cowboy isn't speaking of a regular clinic held in this general vicinity, she sure could be. There is a BNT of the caliber she claims that comes here to a particular local pro's place and gives clinics every 6 weeks or so. There are two pro's I know of that regularly ride in it. One of the two has improved immensely since riding with this individual. Whether it's a result of her own experience or not, a few of her students have also improved under her coaching but certainly not all. Yet, I can't help but think that some of the trickle down effect is working in this one particular case. There are, however, several amateur rider's, all students of the other pro (who hosts the clinic) that have been riding the same 20 meter circles in the same way for a long, long time. I honestly don't think it's the clinician's fault that this occurs. At least in this case, the clinician has been rather blunt on numerous occasions to a couple of the AA rider's in terms of "what they need to do" and I'm not sure if they ignore it or if they just don't get it. I know the pro (the host) has said the same thing to these students over and over (maybe in a different way) without success or progress. I do understand, then, how frustrating it is for the OP to see such a situation occur because at times it seems futile and rarely does anything change - at least for the last 18 months or so. It's reflected at the shows with all of the participants as well.

The simple fact is that the host gets to call the shots and it's much, much more lucrative for her if her "regulars" get the slots. They have the money, the time, the loyalty (especially in this case) and as long as their horses are sound (often questionable) they ride in it and yes, it's for the prestige. In the case of this particular host one of her AA's has several horses and has had several horses in training with her for more than a decade. Of course it does seem to "say something regarding the host/pro" but I don't think it's fair to lay it all on her shoulders either knowing this particular circumstance. I also know in this case that the pro auditors frequently say that they would do this or that but when push comes to shove they don't fully commit - at least they didn't when several years ago the same clinician was brought to the area for a handful of clinics hosted by another barn/pro. Of course at that time the clinic was similarly governed by the host as to who got invited to ride - it all ended actually because the clinician was a bit too frank with the AA students and that particular pro moved on to someone else (another BNT & olympian) who "they" are happier/more comfortable with. It doesn't pay the host to bring in someone, no matter how good, if their bread and butter isn't happy with them. So at least in this area the pro - or hostess with the mostess- is only smart to fill the slots with those that have the guaranteed money and not just for the clinics if you know what I mean; and if her AA students can handle the criticism (or ignore it) all for the sake of prestige - well so be it. Frustrating at times but it's simple business economics and has nothing to do with betterment of the sport as a whole.

Since I don't know for sure if Gucci Cowboy is referrring to the same clinic or not, I have a question. How did the other pro, get a guaranteed slot? If we are referring to the same situation, well then, we both know the answer to that one. It would behoove the other pro(s) if they really want to ride in these clinics with this clinician to follow suit.

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 10:52 AM
In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

This must be one of the most arrogant, elitist, self-serving statements I've read in a while. How very kind, generous, and thoughtful of you to be so very concerned about the average AA. Not to mention extremely humble. :eek:

AND, I seriously DOUBT that all the riders are beginner, up and downers. Just a descriptive , insulting way for the OP to justify her hubrus.

eurofoal
May. 10, 2007, 11:05 AM
Since I don't know for sure if Gucci Cowboy is referrring to the same clinic or not, I have a question. How did the other pro, get a guaranteed slot? If we are referring to the same situation, well then, we both know the answer to that one. It would behoove the other pro(s) if they really want to ride in these clinics with this clinician to follow suit.


Alrighty, six pages of this and you actually know the secret???? Does it involve disrobing???? Do tell, exvet.

carolprudm
May. 10, 2007, 11:09 AM
I do know for a fact that there is one BNT who will tell an AA not to come back without clearing it with the organizer.

lizathenag
May. 10, 2007, 11:35 AM
It really sucks to be a clinic organizer, you are doomed to be hated by someone for something! :(

truer words were never spoken. but the upside is you get to populate the clinic with AAs who show up, pay in advance and say thank you (and maybe even pick up their manure. . .!)

exvet
May. 10, 2007, 12:50 PM
Alrighty, six pages of this and you actually know the secret???? Does it involve disrobing???? Do tell, exvet.

OH! as stated I don't know for sure if we're talking about the same situation. Don't know where Gucci Cowboy hails from but if it's AZ, well then,...... at least I do know of a very similar situation, and ,no, disrobing :eek: is not involved. Pure politics and back scratching is what it takes, you know. If the pros involved really want to make it on the list not only do they have to ante up but they have to bring more to the table then just cash for the ride time. Really, it's the way things work and has worked for years. I see it as the host's perogative to handle the clinic how ever she wishes. Personally I don't go audit the one I'm referring to (only been to watch twice) because I don't get a lot out of doing so in terms of helping my riding and goals and I certainly have not gotten anywhere by the prestige factor ;) I'm part of that white trash clique ya know.

LisaW-B
May. 10, 2007, 12:56 PM
And *I* am living so far out on the outermost frayed ends of the fringe of White Trash Dressage that I had always assumed that the people who ride in those BNT clinic are truly "all that," or they wouldn't be there. I guess it's a good reminder that fancy + money doesn't always necessarily = good ridin'. Sometimes it does, but not always. ;)

eurofoal
May. 10, 2007, 01:12 PM
Alrighty, six pages of this and you actually know the secret???? Does it involve disrobing???? Do tell, exvet.

Pure politics and back scratching is what it takes, you know. If the pros involved really want to make it on the list not only do they have to ante up but they have to bring more to the table then just cash for the ride time. Really, it's the way things work and has worked for years. I see it as the host's perogative to handle the clinic how ever she wishes. .



Really, is anything ever any different? When I see that Gucci Cowboy is, according to her profile, only 22 yrs old, methinks this is part of the learning curve. Just cuz you're good and a pro at an early age, presumably with a good horse to go along with it, doesn't mean that a bunch of dedicated ammys stuggling along are going to roll out the red carpet so you can get better and then teach them second hand what they're already getting first hand. This is a good opportunity to learn to shmooze, to play the game. Believe it or not, life ain't fair, so navigating these waters without making everybody mad at you in your small dressage-y community would be a good goal for you. After all, these are the gals that aren't going anywhere, they've prob been riding since you were in diapers, and will keep on riding for the next 100 years or so. THEY feel like they've earned the right to ride through sheer tenacity and dedication. Why should they move over to let you in? They prob view you as a bit of an upstart.

YOur mission, should you accept it, is to go and be FRIENDLY, and charm your way in. Take the organizer to dinner and beg, buy her a new blingly browband, offer to go and get lunch for everybody, that kind of thing... running around saying that you're so much better that you deserve to ride isn't going to get you what you want. Also, these ladies may well be your future students, so you might want to think about ingratiating yourself on that count, too.

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 01:15 PM
When I see that Gucci Cowboy is, according to her profile, only 22 yrs old, me thinks this is part of the learning curve. Just cuz you're good and a pro at an early age, presumably with a good horse to go along with it, doesn't mean that a bunch of dedicated ammys stuggling along are going to roll out the red carpet so you can get better and then teach them second hand what they're already getting first hand.

Who said she was "good"?

eurofoal
May. 10, 2007, 01:19 PM
Who said she was "good"?

why, she did!

lorilu
May. 10, 2007, 01:22 PM
I would like to remind OP that it is us AAs who form the majority of USDF, pay the majority of dues, pay the majority of entry fees, pay the trainers, pay the breeders, pay the majority of auditing fees, ad nauseum.. What we DON't get to do is write any of it off as business expences.

Frankly, if I were in her part of the world, I would not consider taking lessons from the OP. Bad attitude towards the paycheck, I think.

IMO, it's about time that AAs got something. Good for the the BNT to be willing to work with the AAs. I know there are some who won't deal with anyone below 2nd or 4th.....

Dalfan, you said to well.

AA and proud to be.
Just at First level, too.
Loretta

Keep1Belle
May. 10, 2007, 01:31 PM
NEXT time if you want BNT's personally invite them first to sign up say 5-7days before you open the clinic up to the general public.

OR you could say you have the following spots ope: (1) Training Level ride (1) First level Ride (2) 2nd level (2) 3rd level, etc

Lambie Boat
May. 10, 2007, 01:38 PM
eurofoal said a mouthful! yes on all counts. I also noticed OP's age so she might be excused for being a little clueless. or not!

for what it's worth, many AA riders have been 'trickled-down' on enough, thank you.

mickeydoodle
May. 10, 2007, 01:41 PM
Lots of local pros are too insecure to ride with a BNT, especially one who is good and does not just stroke their egos. I mean one who really teaches, insists on great basics and correctness. You cannot work on pirouettes if you have no collected canter ! I think that is what happens in my area, as only one pro rides in the clinics.

Ryka
May. 10, 2007, 01:51 PM
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.


That's my take on it... no offense Gucci, but you sound like you're just whining. And a lot of "professionals" are damn good riders, but they can't teach to save their life. Nothing wrong with that, but call a spade a spade.

Lambie Boat
May. 10, 2007, 01:53 PM
as a total BNT clinic riding and auditing junkie, I must say that I've seen local pros be put on a lunge line to work on their sitting trots, I've seen Grand Prix horses work on moving past an orange cone for an hour, I've heard back talk to Reiner KLIMKE in a national symposium (and refusal to do as he was saying), and eyerolling and refusal to Klaus B. because pro trainer had all it's students in the stands watching, I've seen Axel Steiner try to teach a pro riding a GP horse something basic and he was shined on too......so.......perhaps that's a new thread, but I can understand that local trainers are too insecure to ride for a BNT unless they will just work on Ps and be gushed over, especially if their students are in the peanut gallery watching.

ideering
May. 10, 2007, 02:02 PM
doesn't mean that a bunch of dedicated ammys stuggling along are going to roll out the red carpet so you can get better and then teach them second hand what they're already getting first hand.

That about sums it up. Well said! :yes:

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 02:05 PM
b

SGray
May. 10, 2007, 02:08 PM
if the clinic is put on by a GMO - then yes

if the clinic is put on by a private barn - NO

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 02:08 PM
b

Hidden Pond Farm
May. 10, 2007, 02:10 PM
i
BTW, thank you to all the clinic organizers that put on clinics!!!

I have nothing to add here save to second carovet's comment above.

Touchstone Farm--Your clinics ROCK and to anyone who says their place is "better suited" for our BNTs, well, they can BUGGER OFF!! (just needed to use that in a sentence!)

SGray
May. 10, 2007, 02:14 PM
for instance - CTDS is putting on a clinc with Debbie McDonald http://www.centexdressage.org/DebbieMcDonaldClinic/default.aspxhttp:// which has four open riders, two AAs and two juniors - as befits a GMO sponsored event

Equibrit
May. 10, 2007, 02:23 PM
when did I once say I was better than anyone else? I simply stated that the opportunities to ride in such a clinic should be given to everyone. (NOT just pros, EVERYONE!)



They should not be GIVEN to anybody.
You reap what you sow - something tells me these "pros" haven't been doing enough sowing!

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 02:34 PM
when did I once say I was better than anyone else?

Allow me; Right here. :)


because we go and watch this BNT give up-down lessons on 20 meter circles for 6 hours, when we could be in there developing our up and coming FEI-potential horses!

The BNT has stated several times that his/her time would be much better spent teaching the professional riders, who in turn, can pass on the information and techniques to their students, instead of the AA students getting it directly from the BNT.

slc2
May. 10, 2007, 02:51 PM
clinics produce a lot of territoriality and a lot of bad feelings.

this happens very often - one group (amateurs, local pros, yr's, older riders, people without horses, etc) feels excluded and tries to convince everyone that they should be allowed spots in the clinic. depending on the situation the very opposite of this can be true too - amateurs complaining the local pros take all the slots.

everyone wants to work with the big guys. but the fact is, clinics are privately run events, they are organized by individuals, each with their own priorities, and are not open to all comers and there aren't enough slots (ever) for everyone who wants to participate.

i know one thing from experience - you aren''t going to change this. no matter who is putting on a clinic, someone is going to not like how it is run.

my suggestion is to get involved with another clinic series, or do your own.

the clinician is not powerless to decide who she teaches. if she really doesn't like teaching lower level riders she can stop coming there, or tell the clinic organizer she'd like the format to change.

i don't agree that a bnt's time is wasted teaching lower level riders, or that that doesn't benefit the community as a whole. as long as they are eager to learn and put forth an effort, they will benefit. so will other riders. the lower level riders are usually very forthright about sharing and demonstrating what they learn at clinics to all their friends.

Sandy M
May. 10, 2007, 02:58 PM
Frankly, most clinics I hear about are already filled by local pros before anyone but the very rich ammies (i.e., imported horses, riding minimum 3rd level) can get in.

Poor lowly AA that I am, I had my name on clinic lists for BNT for YEARS without ever getting in, and at the time I was showing 2nd, schooling 3rd. (Now I have two horses: A semi-retired 21 year old and an unbroken 3 year old, so clinics are not on my horizon for a while, except as an auditor). One interesting example of thinking re clinics: A VERY BNT Coach conducted a clinic at the barn where I board. A little too expensive for my blood to ride, but I did audit. One very beginner AA got in and did well with her very green horse. Another woman was basically a hunter rider who never before and never after rode dressage, but she had the $$$$ so she got in. C'est la vie. I didn't waste my time ranting about not being able to get into the clinic.

However, were I a lowly AA who managed to get in a regular clinic with a BNT (and I was in one years ago pretty regularly with one BNT), no way in H-E-Double Hockey Sticks would I give up my slot, and my trainer would not ask me to do so. I was lucky enough to twice get my name drawn to participate in a clinic with a BNT. A year after I got drawn to participate for the 2nd time, I was approached at the time of that year's drawing and it was intimated that if, by chance, my name were drawn again, I should decline the ride and "let someone else" have it. Ummmmm.....Me, with my teenaged horse, then competing at 2nd level, original purchase price under $5K, should give it up to someone with a $75,000+ imported horse? Uh.....NO. (My name didn't get drawn, so it was moot ;0).)

OP: I'd say back off!! Keep your name on the list. You may luck out. Otherwise, seek out some OTHER BNT and set up your own clinic. Perhaps after you go through the process of securing a facility, soliciting participants (all those other local trainers longing to get in????) and getting the $$$ up front, and make all the other appropriate arrangements, you won't begrudge the organizer who sticks with her regulars who always show up and always pay, whether they're doing 20 m. circles or half-pass.

pvcjumper
May. 10, 2007, 03:24 PM
OP, your take on this is somewhat disheartening ... i FINALLY have an opportunity to ride in a BNT's clinic, (and dammit i am going to!) but now I kind of have the feeling "well do i deserve the spot?"

Anywho... I do see what you are saying, and it makes sense on the level you are looking at it from, and i am sure you dont think that AA's SHOULNT have a chance to ride, you are just expressing that you want MORE pros to fill the spots... but a question that then comes up is ... what if some of these AA's are up and coming local trainers or pros, that want the EXPOSURE rather than the prestige? If I had a horse capable of doing it all, i can guarantee you that i would clinic with everyone in a 100 mile radius that my wallet would afford! Dressage, check, hunter, check, jumper, check, cross country, check ... not for prestige but to be exposed as much as possible and be as well rounded as i could be.

exvet
May. 10, 2007, 05:08 PM
They should not be GIVEN to anybody.
You reap what you sow - something tells me these "pros" haven't been doing enough sowing!

Hee, hee, hee, hee, well you've got that right. It's the typical result of knowing where the pay-offs are going to come in the long run ;) and for a couple I think there may be one or two past sins that might be haunting them too. :yes:

However, were I a lowly AA who managed to get in a regular clinic with a BNT (and I was in one years ago pretty regularly with one BNT), no way in H-E-Double Hockey Sticks would I give up my slot, and my trainer would not ask me to do so.

Of the AA's in this clinic I don't think anyone would/could call them "lowly". Some of these, ahem ladies, have made a profession out of being an AA ;)

but a question that then comes up is ... what if some of these AA's are up and coming local trainers or pros, that want the EXPOSURE rather than the prestige?

:no: Not true with the particular clinic in question. The majority of the AA's are rather well off ladies who ride [some with jobs, some don't have to work and some hold a pseudo job under the 'guise of a boarding/breeding facility but still all AA's nonetheless] but not with the intention of turning pro otherwise a couple of them would have done that quite some time ago. I think they actually have every right to ride in the clinic. It's simply the way it's been done for years. I agree that change would be nice, refreshing and perhaps even productive but it's very unlikely to happen unless there's something else in it for the host - and I don't mean that in a negative way.

I've hosted clinics before and know the work and commitment involved. I've invited auditors to leave because I wasn't going to tolerate their cat clawing, railbird interuptions when the rider they were criticizing had paid for the lesson. Ours was a supportive, friendly group and it was a well known judge, very nice, accomplished and generous lady (I've moved but the clinics are still going on) who agreed to help our sad lot. I can promise you that after 18 months of pulling broodmares out of the pasture and slapping a saddle on just to fill ride slots that once we had a real following of loyal, consistent regulars there was no way we were going to fill their slot with someone with "more talent, right, or professional standing" 'cause they sure as hell were not around when I was paying for 6 out of 20 rides just to keep the BNT coming. The BNT was a saint to put up with it all and stick it through with us.

I certainly don't think this situation is quite the same because I'm pretty sure there has never been an issue with filling this clinic. However, the host is in the business of getting and keeping her well paying entourage. It would not behoove her in the least to put other pro's in the clinic if her students are willing to pay for the time. The students in question aren't all riding training level but perhaps are somewhat akin to those referred to in the thread questioning if the shadbelly's had been put on sale. So I do understand the OP's frustration just happen to be much older and less willing to beat my head against the brick wall.

SGray
May. 10, 2007, 05:14 PM
sounds like clinic organizer is either barn owner, manager, trainer or all of the above - that organizer is giving preference to her students/boarders over her competitors -- which makes perfect sense to me

petitefilly
May. 10, 2007, 05:33 PM
And *I* am living so far out on the outermost frayed ends of the fringe of White Trash Dressage that I had always assumed that the people who ride in those BNT clinic are truly "all that," or they wouldn't be there. I guess it's a good reminder that fancy + money doesn't always necessarily = good ridin'. Sometimes it does, but not always. ;)

LOL You sure are funny. From my humble experiences the more money they have, the poorer they ride. :) Fancy horses with AAs who can barely ride, but in all honestly: at least they are trying. I've seen them all. I've also seen a pro or two who could take a humble bite of pie once in awhile, which is also very good for the soul. It is very hard for pros to come to a clinic and be humbled, it stings in the pocketbook many times.

Once case in point, I used to clinic with Peter Kjellerup when he came to our area at a nice farm, I paid and went as a regular. I am not a pro, I am an AA myself, so I go with much excitement to ride. Peter BTW is aces, he is a rare gem who teaches the AAs more than the average teacher; but a couple of BNT in the area would come once or twice to ride. One was a man who had many students, a great following, and I was frankly surprised he came ( I thought he knew it all!), well, he did not. He knew some and had great big holes in his education that Peter pointed out. The local pro never came again. I kinda felt bad for him, after all, he did want to scope out the teaching, right? But, in the end he could not take Peter's critizism.

It's really hard to be objective also as the teacher when someone comes out of the blue to a clinic with regulars. What do you say when something is a glaring problem? Do you stop the clinic and say we need a few hours here folks to iron this out? Do you go on and continue like it is not a problem?

I've had my clinicians give me differing answers on this subject. One told me point blank that some people come to be seen and you cannot teach them anything so go along and keep everything light. (This was not Peter, so do not infer it was him.) I've been a regular at clinics, I've organized them, and I have gone in as a last minute replacement at the request of an organizer. I've been on both sides of the table, and believe me the person who does these successfully year after year has done it by using regular customers.

kelliope
May. 10, 2007, 05:33 PM
for what it's worth, many AA riders have been 'trickled-down' on enough, thank you.
:yes: My thoughts exactly.

eqsiu
May. 10, 2007, 05:33 PM
Exvet is referring to the same situation.

I have 2 regular BNT's that I train with, I do not NEED this specific clinic we are discussing.

I believe that as a GROUP, the pros should have just as many opportunities to ride with this BNT as the AA's.

If all the rides were picked randomly out of a hat, and they all turned out to be the AA's, I would be absolutely happy. Randomness is fairness in this case.

Darling, get off your ass and march your little butt to the organizer and voice your concerns there. You've received plenty of suggestions, and I guarantee that NOBODY here is going to say "You're absolutely right. What bitches the AAs and organizers are!" If the BNT doesn't have time for the pros, deal with it. Life isn't fair, and the clinic obviously caters to it's regulars. You are obviously NOT going to take any advice but that which you wish to hear. Grow up!

eqsiu
May. 10, 2007, 05:39 PM
Gucci Cowgirl, I just noticed that you're 22. You are not a professional. You may make your living at horses but you're not mature enough, your behavior is not professional, and you aren't experienced enough to be labeled a "professional."

poltroon
May. 10, 2007, 05:39 PM
I've heard back talk to Reiner KLIMKE in a national symposium (and refusal to do as he was saying), and eyerolling and refusal to Klaus B. because pro trainer had all it's students in the stands watching,

Yup. For the record, I really respect a professional who is willing to go take a lesson. In fact, I really try to avoid riding with anyone who does not go for coaching on a semi-regular basis.

kkj
May. 10, 2007, 05:39 PM
OK so be honest are we talking about Debbie MacDonald here? Well if we are, she is not the average BNT. I would say she has a huge almost cult following. Her line for signatures at the World Cup was miles longer than anyone elses. I didn't even have to wait in line for Andreas or Edward Gal. I am sure there are tons of wealthy ammies in this country who would not surrender a spot to ride with her. She is their idol. If she is gracious enough to teach up down riders at this particular AZ barn and has been doing it for years then just let those few lucky ammies live their dream. I really don't see any terrible harm in it.

BuddyRoo
May. 10, 2007, 05:46 PM
So I'm confused.

What's stopping someone from hosting a professionals only or try-out/invitation only clinic?

Sounds to me like sour grapes.

Granted, I'm not at that level by any stretch...so maybe I'm REALLY being naive here.

But it seems to me that if a BNT was INTERESTED in teaching other "professionals" that he/she would take the money and show up as his/her schedule allowed. Might not be the same clinic as that's been on the books awhile, but why not get your own thing going?

Touchstone Farm
May. 10, 2007, 06:00 PM
I have nothing to add here save to second carovet's comment above.

Touchstone Farm--Your clinics ROCK and to anyone who says their place is "better suited" for our BNTs, well, they can BUGGER OFF!! (just needed to use that in a sentence!)

Thanks, HPF. As you know, we have a good group -- a mixture of AAs and pros. And every single rider is gracious, appreciative, treats my place as if it were there own -- and most importantly -- is supportive of each other. I am quite confident that someone with Gucci's attitude would not be invited back to my clinics! (No offense, Gucci, but honestly, think about what you have written...please. It will not serve you well in the long run.)

coloredhorse
May. 10, 2007, 07:47 PM
Here's something I've not yet seen addressed in this thread: The OP's position is that if pros worked with this BNT they could pass that education on to the AAs. This implies that at least some of the AAs ride with some of the pros who are interested in riding with this BNT. Gucci, is this the case? If so, then why wouldn't one of the interested pros approach their own students who clinic with this person: "Hey, Suze, I appreciate your dedication to your riding and know you really get a lot out of your lessons with Ms. BNT. I'd really love to ride with her, too. Here's a proposition: I'd love to have your slot next time. If you'll let me take it, I'll cover your auditing fee and give you a couple of free lessons to boot. If this time works out well, maybe we could take turns riding in your slot; if not, back to status quo. What do you think?"

That's about the ONLY way I, as an AA, would give up my slot with a trainer I liked to anyone. And that would be assuming this was a longtime trainer with whom I have a solid working relationship and whom I feel is helping me to progress appropriately.

If the AAs are NOT riding with the interested local trainers ... well, obviously they have found a training situation that works well for them and their goals and it's highly unlikely that you will be able to persuade any to give up their slots. In fact, your basic message would come across as patronizing should you even try and you'd not only NOT get more pros into the clinic, you could well alienate part of the population that forms your potential client base.

Now, from a clinic organizer's perspective: Many times, in order to get a BNT in for a clinic, the organizer has to pay upfront. That's a big chunk of change! So for repeat events, those who have proven ready, willing and able to pony up the cash -- and some of these folks might be paying for several sessions in advance (that's how I broke into a clinic series with a fairly consistent stable of regulars) -- get dibs on ride times. It's all fine and good to say this group of pros wants to ride, but (as others have noted) it is not at all unusual to have a group screaming for a clinic but when push comes to shove, the cash isn't forthcoming and the organizer finds her/himself out a good portion of the clinic's cost.

Gucci, you've gotten good advice about different avenues to pursue if you are genuinely interested in bringing more educational opportunities to your local trainer community.

If you just wanted to vent here -- goal achieved. If you wanted to get a read from AAs on COTH about how an attempt to bump some AAs from this clinic series would be received -- again, goal achieved.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 09:05 PM
b

carovet
May. 10, 2007, 10:15 PM
My primary philosphy in these situations is that "Its the BO's sandbox, and she gets to make the rules. If you don't like the rules don't bitch, go get your own sandbox and then you can make your own rules.

quote by gc
In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.


so to clarifiy.......your proposal to the person whose spot you will be taking is that if you take your FEI horse to the clinic and ride in it with the BNT, you will then learn what the BNT would have wanted to teach the AA on her first level horse?

And you will have learned it so thoroughly (how to make her first level horse better, that is, by what he teaches you about your FEI horse) that you will be equally capable of teaching that lesson next week at first level as the BNT would be if he did it today (which he won't do because he'll teach you instead)?

And so the student should give you her spot because you are equally capable of teaching her as the BNT is? You have all the techniques, phrases, ways of looking at things, keys to the riders brain, tricks to help the horse, exercises and such that the BNT does if you just go and ride with them on your FEI horse, insight into the judges mind, grasp of developing a horse all the way up the training scale from field to GP, advice on politics and career planning, and all the other things that they might get from their interactions with the trainer?

carovet
May. 10, 2007, 10:17 PM
you know, since your reason for bringing this all up is the altruistic reasoning that the masses will benefit more if you pros are the ones in the clinic, perhaps you need to look at what will benefit the masses the most....

since the masses are indeed lower level aa's, I actually tend to think you will teach next weeks lesson better to those masses if you spend the entire day watching the BNT teach that exact type of student, (perhaps they shouldn't teach any pro's or upper level riders at all), after all, you getting help with your FEI horse isn't going to help you teach your lower level AA students nearly as much as watching how the BNT comes with new and different ways of explaining the important concepts and methods to the students that are exactly who you want to help.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 10:20 PM
b

AllWeatherGal
May. 10, 2007, 10:42 PM
you know, since your reason for bringing this all up is the altruistic reasoning that the masses will benefit more if you pros are the ones in the clinic, perhaps you need to look at what will benefit the masses the most....

since the masses are indeed lower level aa's, I actually tend to think you will teach next weeks lesson better to those masses if you spend the entire day watching the BNT teach that exact type of student, (perhaps they shouldn't teach any pro's or upper level riders at all), after all, you getting help with your FEI horse isn't going to help you teach your lower level AA students nearly as much as watching how the BNT comes with new and different ways of explaining the important concepts and methods to the students that are exactly who you want to help.

excellent point!

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 10:47 PM
b

Lambie Boat
May. 10, 2007, 10:59 PM
well, it looks like you're not getting in. so suck it! :winkgrin:

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 11:02 PM
b

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 11:04 PM
b

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 11:04 PM
And it seems that the 2 pros riding in the clinics get better every time, though some of the AA's have the same lesson over and over and over, since July.

I'm sure it seems this way to you, considering you don't think they are deserving of the spots in the first place. And just because someone charges a fee and says they are a "pro" doesn't make it so. I've seen some really awful riders who were pros. But I'm sure YOUR crowd of "pros" is right there ready to break into the FEI levels. Your sense of intitlement and arrogance is astounding. :no:

Please - BNT could have been saying that just to get you off her back about ditching the AA for the pros. Who knows. But, if BNT really thought that, don't you think it would have been suggested to organizer and made to happen?

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 11:08 PM
please don't flame me for something that I did not propose.

Right. So now you are saying BNT came up to you, A pro of 22 years, and suggested that she would rather have the pros clinic with her. Ok. Whatever you say. I would suggest a bigger shovel for that hole of yours.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 10, 2007, 11:13 PM
b

exvet
May. 10, 2007, 11:37 PM
Right. So now you are saying BNT came up to you, A pro of 22 years, and suggested that she would rather have the pros clinic with her. Ok. Whatever you say. I would suggest a bigger shovel for that hole of yours.

Though I haven't been there auditing like the OP, it isn't all that unlikely that something of this sort was stated. I audited a clinic of the BNT a few years ago and she was quite frank about her likes, dislikes and preferences. Also what the OP has stated about the two pros is true - I know I've watched one of them improve immensely - not at the clinic but at the shows. Her riding in general as well as her (some she owns, some are in training with her) horses have improved a lot - better muscling, more through, etc. As for the amateurs she's referring to in a less than positive manner - well - come'on it happens everywhere and it's not necessarily the fault of anyone in particular. Life gets in the way, learning curves get in the way, lack of time, etc. That doesn't mean that my opinion is that they shouldn't get to participate but I will say that if I were one of them, I sure would want to re-analyze my situation and try to fix why I wasn't improving especially considering the cost.

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 11:46 PM
That doesn't mean that my opinion is that they shouldn't get to participate but I will say that if I were one of them, I sure would want to re-analyze my situation and try to fix why I wasn't improving especially considering the cost.

Sorry, but I don't think I can take the OP's word about if these AA are improving or not. I can see if the OP said something like "Gee, I/we really would like to ride with you" to BNT, and then BNT talking about her likes and dislikes. But, do you really think BNT is going to be saying such things in front of the AA she is teaching? Or maybe this was a "private" conversation with the OP because she is so deserving and special.

The whole premise of the OP just makes me very cranky.

Hoofprince in Mud
May. 11, 2007, 12:06 AM
. . . And it seems that the 2 pros riding in the clinics get better every time, though some of the AA's have the same lesson over and over and over, since July.

The point you seem to be missing is whose responsibility it is to inform the AA who are not making progress and are having the same lesson over and over, thus "wasting the BNT's time", that they would be better served to removing themselves as riders in the clinics, and allowing their trainers to participate as riders.
The responsibility to stop teaching the AA who have made no progress is that of the BNT.
Not you, not the other professionals, not the BM or the BO. The responsiblity over who gets lessons rests with the BNT, regardless of how much an unpleasant task it maybe to the BNT.

carovet
May. 11, 2007, 12:16 AM
sorry, i guess i just assumed by the tone of your posts that you were riding FEI horses that you wanted to bring, my mistake.

please do remember that no one is entitled to participate unless they are the one organizing the clinic. the people who participate have earned that spot by doing whatever they have to to be on the list. (even if it is just the forsight to board at a barn where the owner makes the extra effort to host these clinics). No one is entitled to the top instruction, or even to good students, good horses, a rich uncle or whatever it is that will make you become the best that you can be.

remember too, they have kept their spots in this clinic through cash outlay -- at say $400 per weekend x 8 weekends per year they have been paying at least $3200 per year to stay at the top of the list...plus board, lessons, etc to stay at the hosts barn),but many people (like this BO) create their own opportunities to work with top people.


thats fine, like I said, I have other options, but the 5 or 6 other pros dont have other options.



they do have options.
they have the option of arranging their own clinic with some other BNT, and then populating it with students and paying for the spots that don't fill. they have the option of becoming a student of the barn host (then all that knowledge can trickle down to them when they take their daily lessons from the barn host)

they in the past had the option of having the forsight to have gotten on the wait list way back when the clinics were just a glimmer in the BO's eye, they could have gotten on the wait list when it was tough to fill (usually by the 3rd or 4th visit in a 6 week row you are starting to work down your wait list).

they still have the option of travelling to this BNT's barn for lessons to ingratiate themselves with said BNT so that then the BNT will suggest to the BO that they would be willing to teach 9 lessons a day, if only their favored student would be allowed to be the 9th student

they have the option of offering to pay the BO and BNT double for her time to add a 9th student. (money talks)

and don't forget if the BNT wanted to change who was coming to the clinic, im sure they could, but they probably are pretty happy taking home that incredibly reliable $X,000 every 6 weeks, and apparently don't care enough about all the untaught pro's to make a stand and say the format needs to change--so to the BNT, their income is more important than your education.

here's a serious idea ....if your pro friends really want to work only with this person, collect checks from yourself and from each of the pro's that you know want to ride with this BNT for an equal portion of the total for one spot. Put all the checks in an envelope for the BO and tell her that you wanted her to understand how committed each of you are to riding if a spot opens up. Tell her that if a spot opens she can immediately cash each of your personal checks to hold the one spot without contacting you first. Then whoever from your group that is chosen to ride in the spot will pay back everyone else. if none of you take it, she can just keep the cash, and she hasn't lost anything by waiting to hear back from you guys if one of you can take the spot or not.

having money in hand can sometimes change the position on a wait list, esp when people above you on the list don't answer the phone right away!

btw, are each of you already formally on the wait list? (and not just a "hey, i'd really like to ride with her if a spot comes open" -- but a check filled out, clinic ap filled out all in the BO's hand already)

it can be frustrating that you are not included in this privately organized, supported, and scheduled clinic, so why not make your own privately organzied, supported, schedueld, etc, so that you can make up whatever rules you want?

surely someone from your group has some other BNT they have worked with in the past that all of you would be willing to pay to bring out for a clinic and try? if there is a shortage of instruction to the pros, then step up and make it happen with someone else instead of worrying about this particular person who is simply not intersted enough in teaching you or your group to disrupt the status quo........though it is easier when someone else does all the organizing and risk taking......

exvet
May. 11, 2007, 12:27 AM
But, do you really think BNT is going to be saying such things in front of the AA she is teaching?

:yes: been there, seen it (not in this case but when the BNT was in these parts a few years ago....yup, that's one reason why that barn brings in another Olympean, which is ashame because this BNT in question is good)

Sorry, but I don't think I can take the OP's word about if these AA are improving or not. No and that's the problem with this Internet version of the peanut gallery. Really it's not fair at all to take something as hearsay and make it gospel; but, I will say that while I don't agree with the OP's quest and certainly don't have a dog in this fight, I don't think she is all that far from the truth/accuracy.

it can be frustrating that you are not included in this privately organized, supported, and scheduled clinic, so why not make your own privately organzied, supported, schedueld, etc, so that you can make up whatever rules you want?

The OP has stated that she's not really interested in doing that however...the "lack" thereof ......... is exactly why those on the sidelines are where they are.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 11, 2007, 12:42 AM
b

exvet
May. 11, 2007, 12:49 AM
Just seems wrong that the BNT herself wants things to change and it isn't happening.

It takes a lot of work, a guarantee & money to back it up. Something she obviously knows a lot about. She's where she's at because it's business.

Sabine
May. 11, 2007, 12:55 AM
this is purely a business question- not a question of how to change it.
The BNT needs the business, she has a very steady clientele- one she probably doesn't completely like in every aspect- but one that pays her well and steadily - whenever she comes to town- mostly why- because the AAs don't have a riding life- their highlight IS the BNT.

On the other hand- for her it would be nice to teach better riders- but the better riders are Pros- and a lot of those are not reliable- don't have steady incomes and are not always in town to participate (due to shows and commitments).

So- every realistic BNT knows that the best money and often the easiest money is with the AA's but of course it would be fun at times to teach a Pro and it's always good to speak nicely to the pros! Because mainly you never know who you'll meet at the next CDI with a new horse and a new sponsor...a pro from the boonies...LOL!

it's all about money in the end...accept it- get in line and don't complain- or get yourself a great sponsor...and let that sponsor do the talking!

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 11, 2007, 01:09 AM
agreeing with you sabine, that sounds all true and realistic

Hoofprince in Mud
May. 11, 2007, 01:41 AM
. . . Just seems wrong that the BNT herself wants things to change and it isn't happening.

If the BNT wants change, it is up to her to make it happen.

If she needs the money, her need for money is greater than her need to teach the pros rather than the AAs.
That's life, and it is a choice the BNT is making.

End of story.

Bogey2
May. 11, 2007, 07:31 AM
since the masses are indeed lower level aa's, I actually tend to think you will teach next weeks lesson better to those masses if you spend the entire day watching the BNT teach that exact type of student, (perhaps they shouldn't teach any pro's or upper level riders at all), after all, you getting help with your FEI horse isn't going to help you teach your lower level AA students nearly as much as watching how the BNT comes with new and different ways of explaining the important concepts and methods to the students that are exactly who you want to help

Excellent!
I invite my trainer (FEI) for a clinic to my barn and have my (mostly TR-2nd level) students ride with her while I audit. It helps me tremendously. We work on things totally different than what she would work with me on.

Touchstone Farm
May. 12, 2007, 11:44 PM
thank you exvet, for seeing my point of view and supporting it

I understand that clinics arent fair, and that is life. Just seems wrong that the BNT herself wants things to change and it isn't happening.

If the BNT really wanted something to change, it would. She'd either tell the organizer or the students and it would be done (I've seen that happen)...or she'd eventually quit coming. So obviously she is fine with teaching the "same lesson" over and over (as you so patronizingly described). So, just get over that you and all your pro friends aren't riding. Hmmm, maybe she'd rather teach eager amateurs than arrogant 22-year-old pros! :-)

mickeydoodle
May. 13, 2007, 12:51 AM
Well again, I would as the OP how much $ they are willing to part with. My clinic with a really BNT has been open to all the local pros, and only one has come to ride, when her owner pays for it. You cannot have a free ride, unless you have a sponser.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 13, 2007, 02:08 AM
b

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 13, 2007, 02:09 AM
b

Bogey2
May. 13, 2007, 07:50 AM
well, OK then.

I am hopping off the train here....:winkgrin:

GoLightly
May. 13, 2007, 04:08 PM
If the BNT wants change, it is up to her to make it happen.

If she needs the money, her need for money is greater than her need to teach the pros rather than the AAs.
That's life, and it is a choice the BNT is making.

End of story.

Exactly! If the BNT wanted change, she could demand it. Clinics are so political, which is sad. Where I used to board, the organizer, a nasty woman, really abused her power to give people spots in the clinics. She'd put her "ladies who lunch" friends in regularly. Crappy riders, but extremely wealthy with very nice horses. But that said, the BNT ate up how these women would worship her. Also, I'm sure she was well aware that these AA could be future supporters of hers. One bought her a horse once. So I think if the BNT was really upset with her clinic roster she could change it if she wanted to. It all boils down to money, imo.

ETA: To think the AA's would give up their spots willingly is a bit of a stretch. The women at my former barn lived to say that they had just ridden with so and so. It was the highlight of their day. So yeah, the world is not a fair place.

Touchstone Farm
May. 14, 2007, 12:56 AM
For the 7th time, they aren't friends - I dont even know these other pros, other than to see them audit these BNT clinics.

AND, for the 7th time, I have other BNT's I clinic with, so I dont "need" these clinic spots - read the whole thread before you decide to add your .02 cents.

I've read all your posts and find it interesting that you focus on the fact that I mistakenly referenced your pro "friends" when instead you should perhaps focus on the message that I and most posters are trying to get across to you...which is: you need to get over the fact that you aren't running that clinic and you aren't riding in it, nor are the pros (who aren't your friends), and simply move on. Enjoy the clinics that you ARE getting to ride in. Besides, as you stated so many times, you don't "need" that clinic anyway and I'm sure all these pros you refer to (who aren't your friends) will survive...

mbm
May. 14, 2007, 01:23 AM
For the 7th time, they aren't friends - I dont even know these other pros, other than to see them audit these BNT clinics.

AND, for the 7th time, I have other BNT's I clinic with, so I dont "need" these clinic spots - read the whole thread before you decide to add your .02 cents.

sooo.... i'm confused.... you dont want to ride in this clinic and you dont even know the folks you are trying to "help" by wanting to shove aside an ammie to and get them in the clinic.... ????

huh?

how do you even know they want to ride??

this whole thing is sounding weirder and weirder :)

Velvet
May. 14, 2007, 01:57 AM
(To the theme of "Rawhide".)

Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'

Keep postin', postin', postin',
Though she's disapprovin',
Keep that Gucci postin' COTHers!
Don't try to understand 'er,
Just post and plead then ignore 'er,
Soon she'll be gone and none will care.
Boy my heart's calculatin'
And with baited breath we're waitin', be waiting for the end of this ride.

Move 'er on, head 'er up,
Head 'er up, move 'er out,
Move 'er on, head 'er out COTHers!
Set 'er out, ride 'er out
Ride 'er out, keep 'er out,
Keep 'er out, ride 'er off COTHers.

:lol: Just a bit of fun since everyone seems to be constantly beating their heads on their monitors in frustration with this particular thread and OP. :D

smithereens_86
May. 14, 2007, 11:25 AM
NEXT time if you want BNT's personally invite them first to sign up say 5-7days before you open the clinic up to the general public.

OR you could say you have the following spots ope: (1) Training Level ride (1) First level Ride (2) 2nd level (2) 3rd level, etc

Still not likely to work - people lie about what level they ride at. Not just to others, but to themselves as well. Some people are honest AND aware of their actual level; however other people just believe they ride at a higher level than they are actually capable of achieving so you would end up with a bunch of 1st level riders in the 2nd/3rd level spots, etc. I was auditing a clinic last weekend where a rider claimed to be 2nd level. After watching the warm up, the clinician asked for a collected trot - non-existant. Spent most of the session working on teaching the very beginnings of how to collect to the horse and rider. Nice 1st level pair, but definitely NOT a 2nd level pair yet.

~Shelly~

Dalfan
May. 14, 2007, 11:31 AM
I'm confused now. :confused:
So you never got together and discussed how nice it would be to get some of those spots for yourselves. That's not how I interpreted your postings. If you have no desire to clinic with AA BNT and since you probably have no idea regarding the "other" pro's...I don't get the point of your initial/subsequent posts.

From your first post;


This is causing a bit of discomfort with all the other pro's here

Now this;


For the 7th time, they aren't friends - I dont even know these other pros, other than to see them audit these BNT clinics.

greysandbays
May. 14, 2007, 01:07 PM
Just seems wrong that the BNT herself wants things to change and it isn't happening.

Hell, if that's the wrongest thing you ever see in your life, you'll be luckier than anybody else on the planet. :sleepy:

Remember the Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity to accept those things I cannot change,
The courage to change those things I can,
And the WISDOM to know the difference.

That wisdom thing just ain't there for ya yet.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 14, 2007, 03:39 PM
its about the IDEA of the pros not getting the chance, not about specific riders...

eqsiu
May. 14, 2007, 03:55 PM
For the 7th time, they aren't friends - I dont even know these other pros, other than to see them audit these BNT clinics.

AND, for the 7th time, I have other BNT's I clinic with, so I dont "need" these clinic spots - read the whole thread before you decide to add your .02 cents.

Then why on Earth do you care? You must have something invested in this other than altruism towards your fellow "pros."

lizathenag
May. 14, 2007, 03:56 PM
How do you approach this situation in a way that would encourage the AA's to give up their clinic spots for the pros?

You don't. You organize your own clinic. All it takes is time, money and a facility. . .

eqsiu
May. 14, 2007, 04:00 PM
No, what I meant was that I dont see any of the orther pros outside of these clinics - we dont know eachother or have had any other conversations OTHER than about these clinics, that we want the OPPORTUNITY to ride in...its about the IDEA of the pros not getting the chance, not about specific riders...

"We" want an opportunity? What happened to you not wanting to ride with this particular BNT?

Once again:
You're screwed. Suck it up and quit whining.

Dalfan
May. 14, 2007, 07:06 PM
I think I see now. Just a generic rant/complaining/whining that it really isn't fair that all the AA's get to ride and are shutting out the more deserving pro's. You said you don't want/need to ride, and you're not sure about the other pro's wanting to ride. Geez, talk about a hair up your arse for nothing.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 14, 2007, 07:09 PM
Everyone needs good help, not just the AA's.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 14, 2007, 07:12 PM
b

Candle
May. 14, 2007, 08:18 PM
Please stop!!! You're giving the rest of us early 20 somethings a really bad name...

A clinic is for people who pay for it. Consistently. If the other pros in your area cared as much about this as you do, they would organize their own clinic together. While your helpfulness is admirable, I don't think it's needed or warranted in this situation. Clinic with your own BNT and teach your own students.

Touchstone Farm
May. 14, 2007, 08:43 PM
Gucci Cowboy wrote: "And seriously, the rudeness from some posters is astounding. Very catty."

And the comment in reference to my post was oh, so polite (something about...read all my posts before posting your two cents' worth)?

Gucci Cowboy then writes: "Like I said before, this town has chased away many BNT's because of this issue. It's not so easy to get a BNT in here for public clinics every 6 weeks."

Now you're saying that AAs are chasing BNTs away because the poor pros don't get to ride. What a hoot!!! Okay, let's try this again: Organize....your....own...clinic...with....only... pros (who are not your friends, of course). How many times do you have to hear this? I'm really not trying to be catty (maybe it comes naturally...ha ha), but seriously why are you not hearing what the posters are saying?

slc2
May. 14, 2007, 09:38 PM
no one's needs, neither amateur nor pro, are more important than any other person's. it is no more fair for an amateur to give up a spot than it is for a pro to give up a spot. and that idea's been given rather more sympathy here than this idea.

gucci cowgirl, you have no right to try to even suggest that people should give up their slots in a clinic to let you in - that is, you have no right to suggest that and then express shock when people don't agree with you.

you are not any more important than anyone else. a person being an amateur doesn't make them less important; neither does them being a pro.

and as far as the 'trickle down' effect benefitting local amateurs if pro's get clinic spots - that's rubbish. absolute rubbish.

Touchstone Farm
May. 14, 2007, 10:12 PM
no one's needs, neither amateur nor pro, are more important than any other person's. it is no more fair for an amateur to give up a spot than it is for a pro to give up a spot. and that idea's been given rather more sympathy here than this idea.

gucci cowgirl, you have no right to try to even suggest that people should give up their slots in a clinic to let you in - that is, you have no right to suggest that and then express shock when people don't agree with you.

you are not any more important than anyone else. a person being an amateur doesn't make them less important; neither does them being a pro.

and as far as the 'trickle down' effect benefitting local amateurs if pro's get clinic spots - that's rubbish. absolute rubbish.

slc2: Well-stated. I couldn't agree more...especially with your last two lines! Bravo.

Tamara in TN
May. 14, 2007, 10:19 PM
ok some where in the West :) ...a group of very well tended ladies whose jobs are sleeping with their husbands or nursing a trust fund teat,are using a clinic with a Big Name as a coffee klatch get-to-gather simply because they have the money and strings to the clinic organizer...;)

most don't improve much at all and use lower rated trainers to work their horses and give them lessons locally when Big Name ain't in town....the professional set in town (who have no rich sugar daddies :no: and who work for a living) would like to improve their own skills but never get a shot into the things because the Coffee Klatch Sisters having permanent slots and no one else is welcome ??

am I right so far ?

now if I am correct...if the Sisters make use of the local trainers maybe the local trainers should boycott them a few months....but wait you cannot? why??? because you work for a living....

kinda like the aforementioned earlier poster who said she was a lowly second level rider on a $5K horse....in this case wealthy AA (some who could/should be required to go pro if I under stood Exvet) are suffocating the growth of <x> just because they can...

I do think that people should remember that some very very good pro trainers are not wealthy themselves and being a "pro" in todays world does not mean the super wealthy unapproachable kentucky gent....but rather some one who "makes a living working with horses"

was I close? after 10 pages one starts to lose the story line :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 14, 2007, 10:22 PM
I have said, a couple times, that I have accepted the fact that clinics aren't and shouldn't be fair/random. enough already!

dutchmike
May. 14, 2007, 10:27 PM
Oh life is so unfair:p

Dalfan
May. 14, 2007, 10:55 PM
That "Last Line" of slc2's came straight from the BNT's mouth. HER idea, not mine. So BNT's are no longer good judges of how clinics should be run?

You're the one who suggested the AA would benefit from their trainers (the pros) riding in clinic with BNT - the trickle-down effect, I believe. So now you say she said your idea was rubbish, just rubbish?

I do hope some of those AA have been directed to this thread to have a look-see what the supposed "pros" think of them.

exvet
May. 14, 2007, 11:01 PM
I do hope some of those AA have been directed to this thread to have a look-see what the supposed "pros" think of them.

I am one of the AA's in this area. I don't ride in this particular clinic but would love to ride with the clinician in question; however, I am not part of the in crowd/barn and, honestly, I can't afford it. I don't think those who ride in the clinic would really care a flying flip as to what the "pros" think of them - at least not in so far as the OP and I'm pretty sure they've heard the comments made by the clinician directly (or pretty close to it) because she doesn't spare her critique's shall we say.......and.....

a few of those who do participate are already aware of this thread - it's a damn small fish bowl in these parts, not unlike other parts of the country/dressage scene.

Lambie Boat
May. 14, 2007, 11:01 PM
Adult amateurs that ride with BNTs are just cutting out the "middle man" or the pro trainer. Why should AA's information be filtered down thru a gucci cowboy or a local pro? Show me the benefit? The original message will be distorted and may not apply directly to AA's riding +/or horse or both.

OP- so stop reading since you aren't getting anything since page 2. You definitely are not 'getting it' or understanding what people are trying to tell you.


and Tamara, while I take exception to you refering to AAs as the Coffee Klatch Sisters (pretty funny) I also don't think ALL pros are having to eat ramen.
OP is bragging about her ability to sling $200 lessons @ 6 weeks with a variety of the BNT on earth, so let's just assume she's doing OK being a local pro.
That is, until her local AA's get a load of her attitude and entitlement complex

exvet
May. 14, 2007, 11:09 PM
and Tamara, while I take exception to you refering to AAs as the Coffee Klatch Sisters (pretty funny) I also don't think ALL pros are having to eat ramen.

Oh boy, here I'm a friend of "T" (really, really I am) and I'm an AA in this area and have had the opportunity to converse (not in person) with the OP. I don't take offense at anything either have said. I think most of the AA's in Phoenix/Scottsdale area will survive the 10 pages. Tamara isn't all that far off in describing some of the crowd but it certainly doesn't describe us all. Some of the pros aren't financial/fiscally fit and/or work "real" jobs in order to have much needed benefits and teach/train as a second job, others of course are more like the OP in their ability to spend like their clients. It's a pretty diverse crowd and so much fun to watch - way more fun than it is to read about - but each of the characterizations do come with a real name, face, and horse :yes:

Lambie Boat
May. 14, 2007, 11:09 PM
oh sorry, I meant $350 for 45 with Stef peters or also, she rides with harry boldt. and and and oh who else? but not enough. wants more more more!! hahahaha :lol: :lol: more names to add to the list. more! gimmeee

AllWeatherGal
May. 14, 2007, 11:31 PM
That "Last Line" of slc2's came straight from the BNT's mouth. HER idea, not mine. So BNT's are no longer good judges of how clinics should be run?

I'm done with this thread. It hasn't gone anywhere since page 2. I keep repeating the same things, to no effect. I have said, a couple times, that I have accepted the fact that clinics aren't and shouldn't be fair/random. enough already!

I'm a little confused. I thought you rode with Leslie Reid ...

Dalfan
May. 14, 2007, 11:48 PM
a few of those who do participate are already aware of this thread - it's a damn small fish bowl in these parts, not unlike other parts of the country/dressage scene.

My understanding was that the AA's in the clinic were students of the pros on the sidelines. That's a tidbit I'd like to know about. :lol:

exvet
May. 15, 2007, 12:21 AM
My understanding was that the AA's in the clinic were students of the pros on the sidelines. That's a tidbit I'd like to know about.

Well if you would like, I am sure you are more than welcome to come audit and watch all the fun for yourself. As for the guts of the gossip, trust me, save the air far & saddle up and ride at home - what goes on here gets repeated everywhere ;)

slc2
May. 15, 2007, 07:39 AM
oh so NOW, someone who has more money than you is a piece of trash and should give up their spot.

it seems that EVERYONE has some way of making themselves more important, and more deserving of the clinic spot.

i do not agree.

Tamara in TN
May. 15, 2007, 08:52 AM
oh so NOW, someone who has more money than you is a piece of trash and should give up their spot.
i do not agree.

if you are quoting me i'd like to see the "piece of trash" quote directly :) the fact is that in every "sport" there are people who dress the part,live the part,talk the talk and like my buddy remarked at the start of hunt season

"show up every opening meet,on their overwrought fresian and get bucked off before they release the hounds...but they take a great picture"

the fact is that money talks...and some of the most untalented people in the world have lots of money :yes: (ask any one who gives lessons on any of these forums and they will tell you this)...as all the AA like that in that area ? no...or the system would have collapsed under itself already....(besides me and Exvet go back a few years now...and I know that girl works for a living and actually rides a bit)

but you must wonder about "money" being able to buy anything in todays world...except talent...I'm allfor people having money...I'm all for rich folks...I do not think that the OP started out by saying "ammies just suck" but rather...there is a handful of players who limit the involvment in the sport (one way or another)

hell there is a handful of people who limit what I do in the sports I want to play in :yes: ...I can suck it up and go 10 hours farther away to do <x> or I cannot do <x>....for me I have to just not do it...and I could complain about peopel having shows close to them or show scheduals set for people who do not do hay from april to nov and people who hire judges who prefer their animals....but I don't...

I do think the animosity of the non pros is pretty amazing....here I am in TN and know exactly one of the players involved and I after reading thru 10 pages of it,wonder what the hopla is about...maybe dressage "pros" should look at how they treat the ammies or maybe some ammies should look at why they are overwrought about pros....just some thing to think about...remember I don't do dressagy anyway...I just watch Exvet do it....:winkgrin:

eurofoal
May. 15, 2007, 03:08 PM
My understanding was that the AA's in the clinic were students of the pros on the sidelines. That's a tidbit I'd like to know about.

Well if you would like, I am sure you are more than welcome to come audit and watch all the fun for yourself. As for the guts of the gossip, trust me, save the air far & saddle up and ride at home - what goes on here gets repeated everywhere ;)

exvet,this made me spit my coffee. So, so true.

But have we ever gotten the anzer to theeeezz quessstyn: Duz the Guuccchhhey Cowgirl have the students of her own weeeth thez big national trainer in ze clinic, or iz theeze only, how you say, a hypotheeetical situation?

exvet
May. 15, 2007, 11:16 PM
But have we ever gotten the anzer to theeeezz quessstyn: Duz the Guuccchhhey Cowgirl have the students of her own weeeth thez big national trainer in ze clinic, or iz theeze only, how you say, a hypotheeetical situation?

Honestly I don't know the answer to that question. The AA's that I do know who ride in the clinic are not currently (well at least not as of the last recognized show) her students (of course I don't know the whole ride list for each rendition of this clinic either but what I do know is according to the local scuttlebutt, and it supposedly doesn't change much :winkgrin: ). I also know that she's been advertising for students and has a web site. I do not know who rides with her currently. After reading her web site and seeing some pictures I would consider riding with her or at least watching a lesson with that idea in mind if I didn't already have an awesome riding instructor who I have no intention of leaving anytime soon. While I understand everyone's "take" on the thread and the reasons for the not so supportive comments in regards to the OP, her concerns are not isolated and I do believe her. It's just that having lived here for a while, riding with, competing against and simply sitting back and observing the local fish bowl, I think her hopes/expectations/perspective are a little unrealistic; but, who knows if she rubs the right elbows she might get something working in the direction she thinks things should go. I have no where near the money that the crowd she hangs with or needs riding with her has so it's all a moot point for me but my regularity at the shows allows me to be that proverbial fly on the wall whether I intend to be or not ;) It's amazing what people go on and on about in the show barns when you're a nobody. :yes:

AllWeatherGal
May. 16, 2007, 12:12 AM
exvet ... if it matters, you're somebody (very special) to us! :)

Lambie Boat
May. 16, 2007, 12:32 AM
yes, it really is amazing how freely people talk when you're just standing there if you're a 'nobody'.....it's almost as if you are invisible or something? I can't believe the dish I hear when scribing or grooming or auditing or just sitting watching in the bleachers of a show. wow! Very uncool! Like that song says "haven't you people ever heard of....closing the goddamm door!"

good thing I never repeat anything....:winkgrin:

exvet
May. 16, 2007, 01:15 AM
exvet ... if it matters, you're somebody (very special) to us!

Ah shucks what a nice thing to say. Thank you :D



I can't believe the dish I hear when scribing or grooming or auditing or just sitting watching in the bleachers of a show. wow! :yes:

Whether it's the right place wrong time or whatever...there's a never ending supply of it, especially when you're braiding. Sometimes I want to look in the mirror to see if I've started to resemble my horse....I mean I know I may resemble some parts but come'on.. Oh well it's certainly one of the many things that makes life interesting and in a very odd way it's kind of nice to know that you can go from one region to the next and know that things will be relatively the same ;)

Touchstone Farm
May. 16, 2007, 04:05 PM
Hmmm, did anyone notice Gucci girl disappeared and deleted her original and subsequent posts? Maybe getting some heat from the AAs in her area? I think she forgot that the gist of her comments can still be read where posters pulled from her quotes. Well, hopefully she understands that people weren't picking on her per se, but trying to help her see it from the AA's and other points of view...

LexInVA
May. 16, 2007, 04:18 PM
Finally, this thread can be put to bed! Though I admit I'm somewhat curious about the real life aftermath of all this. It doesn't look good. :no:

Whisper
May. 16, 2007, 09:50 PM
My regular instructor and XC coach bring in some pretty BNTs for dressage clinics occasionally. As in the OP's situation, they and their students get first priority for spots. So far, I've only audited, since I feel I'm able to get so many more lessons for the money than clinic rides. I learn more from watching the people who are going at roughly my level than the more advanced ones (both my trainers and others), but the comments on all of the rides are very interesting. They did a couple of mixed group sessions that seemed to work out very well, also. I *definitely* felt that there was a strong trickle-down effect - both of them used several phrases and exercises they got in their own or others' rides in the clinics, and passed them on to me in a way I found helpful. It didn't seem like the clinicians minded teaching the lower level horses or students. If either of them had expressed that, I doubt they would have been invited back - it doesn't create a positive learning environment. Why would you feel that they owe their competitors spots in preference to their students?

Lazeo
May. 18, 2007, 01:05 AM
Well maybe OP has left because she was invited to the clinic... Anyways it seems kinda greedy to me to be whining about not lessoning with this BNT when she already has one come in monthly. A little hypocritical when she hasn't yet invited the pro's from the OT BNT clinic to her BNT clinic, but expects to be riding anyways.


Originally posted by EXVET
Since I don't know for sure if Gucci Cowboy is referrring to the same clinic or not, I have a question. How did the other pro, get a guaranteed slot? If we are referring to the same situation, well then, we both know the answer to that one. It would behoove the other pro(s) if they really want to ride in these clinics with this clinician to follow suit.

The other pro got in because she was invited by host pro. NO other connections invovled. I don't see how that would offend the other pro's in town.


The BNT has stated several times that his/her time would be much better spent teaching the professional riders, who in turn, can pass on the information and techniques to their students, instead of the AA students getting it directly from the BNT.

True, but the BNT has also enjoyed some of the AA's in the clinic. The BNT has also stated some of these AA's are to stay in the clinic no matter what.


Anyways, things seem to be shaping up for the OP so we can all let this thread rest!

exvet
May. 18, 2007, 02:09 AM
Anyways, things seem to be shaping up for the OP so we can all let this thread rest!

Yes........finally. About time one of you stopped by ;)

Kay
May. 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
I have been following this thread and have some observations.

The host has invited several trainers to ride with this BNT. I can think of at least 4 who have ridden and another who has been asked. And now Gucci Cowgirl is on the schedule. At least one of the pros who has been invited has ridden with the host in the past. The BNT has voiced that she wants certain riders to be included. The other slots are up to the host to fill. The BNT has also been invited by the GMO to do a clinic in the fall so maybe some others will be able to get in on that.

Judging by when Gucci Cowgirl edited out all of her messages, I bet she was invited after that and the host was probably not aware of her thread at the time of the invitation. So she probably got invited anyway and could have saved herself a lot of punishment by just asking the host again to put her on the list. I wonder if the BNT knows about the thread....and if an AA got the boot.

Having organized clinics for years, I have a waitlist but build my schedule by who came last month and who is a steady, reliable rider. We have had several pros in our clinics. It has simply been a matter of them asking to be placed on the list, and an opening coming available. Openings always pop up due to lameness issues, scheduling conflicts, and life in general. So nearly everyone on my waitlist has had an opportunity to ride.

Exvet makes a good point about people talking and not realizing others are listening. (Wink) We all make those mistakes at times. The anonymity of this forum also encourages people to be frank but sometimes the locals figure out who is being discussed and it can cause hurt feelings.

AllWeatherGal
May. 18, 2007, 08:54 PM
Kay (and others who organize BNT clinics) ... I have a question.

Rider A has been a regular in the clinic. Has issue, must cancel.

Waiting B fills in for the clinic.

Next month, does Rider A get the spot back, or does Waiting B become Rider B?

What if Rider A needs to miss another clinic? Does Waiting B get first chance at that opening again, or does Waiting C?

And do these guidelines apply equally to muti-day clinics? That is Rider A gives up her space in a 3-day clinic (a ride each day). Does Waiting B get to choose all the rides, or only one?

Thanks :)

Lambie Boat
May. 18, 2007, 10:26 PM
I can speak for myself. When riding for years in a BNT clinic (4 days a clinic every 6 weeks), I was unable to ride once. I knew a trainer who was needing help with his piaffe so asked trainer to ride in my spot. well, trainer never gave me my spot back! And, as it turned out, trainer arranged for BNT to come to his barn (where I boarded and trained) to give clinics and I was never invited to ride in those clinics either. I felt totally snaked! Of course, the trainer clinic was filled with other 'pros' with upper level issues and better horses, so BNT was happier. Looking back, I should have offered my riding spot to another AA with a lower level horse......I might still be riding w/ BNT.
or not? who knows.

I moved on to my premier BNT whom I adore and happily gave him buckets of money, until he shat on me too (I'm not alone: there is a mountain of dumped students behind this BNT) But I have the education and my videotapes to keep me warm at night.:cool:

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 18, 2007, 11:22 PM
the reason I deleted my posts was because I went back and read them, and realized how bitchy they sounded...days before I was put on the list for the clinic

however, the reason this is hard for me to deal with, is because the BNT who I respect and love as a friend, and who I worked for/lived with for 6 years, refuses to come to this town because of its reputation, and how she was treated (not by these particular people though). If it wasn't for the other BNT's that come to our farm (who refuse to do clinics, will only do unadvertised, private lessons for the same reason)that just seems a little unfair, and though I realise that AA's have every right to have great, consistant help, so do pros! (especially ones who are willing to pay!)

edited to say - watch me get my ass bucked off tomorrow - maybe it'll knock some sense into me!

Kay
May. 19, 2007, 12:24 AM
When one of my regulars cannot make it, and I offer it to a waitlisted person, the next time, the slot goes back to my regular. If someone on the waitlist declines a second time, I usually don't ask again. I usually overbook so I can absorb a cancellation or two. Most of the slots are filled by clients of the local trainer we work with, but certainly not exclusively. Some are neighbors, some are friends, and some are people who see the clinic posted on the newsletter and website calendars. Every time or two, we have a real greenie and I try not to put them at the end of the day. Sometimes we have really green horses too. But overall we have a variety from Training to FEI. And my regulars are the bread and butter that keep the clinics going - about 8 years now.

Some trainers in our area have clinics but elect not to publicize them. So those clinics are very exclusive and unless you have an "in" with the host, you don't even know to audit, much less try to get a ride. I like to see lots of clinics and educational activities on the website and newsletter calendars so that it looks like we have an active dressage community.

Regarding the deleted postings from Gucci Cowgirl, my first thought was that now that you had deleted your original postings that everyone would remember them worse than they may have been. The retelling is always a little more extreme (and possibly fun) than the actual. I appreciate your humility and wish you luck in the clinic tomorrow.

Kay
May. 19, 2007, 12:44 AM
I forgot to mention that if a regular cancels one or all rides, I fill it with one or more people from the waitlist. Sometimes the waitlisted person can only ride one day. If a person has a horse on layup, I try to get them back in as soon as their horse is sound again if they were a regular. I'm flexible and try to work with everyone. Sometimes the cancelling person comes up with a replacement. If I can't fill it, I'm happy enough to have them fill the spot.

Sometimes this makes it very difficult to manage and it's a lot of trouble and makes me crazy, but it's working.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
There are a LOT of clinics here, (every weekend quite possibly) you'd think enough for everyone to have some help at least once every 6 months or so!

I talked to the organizer of the 'L' program (judges seminar/course) months ago and have volunteered to ride 3 horses as demo rides...so everyone can laugh at my expense - I don't mind people ripping me apart!

AllWeatherGal
May. 19, 2007, 09:53 AM
There are a LOT of clinics here, (every weekend quite possibly) you'd think enough for everyone to have some help at least once every 6 months or so!

I talked to the organizer of the 'L' program (judges seminar/course) months ago and have volunteered to ride 3 horses as demo rides...so everyone can laugh at my expense - I don't mind people ripping me apart!

That's a silly comment, IMO. If you're a pro who is devoting hundreds of dollars a month to clinic with BNTs you'd better not make a shambles of a test that's "lower" than third level.

That's not to say you won't be on a less experienced or more sensitive horse than you are rider, or that "L" program people may have issues with you :D ... but I'd think you'd better ride like the wind, GC, after all this whining about riding with a third BNT.

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 19, 2007, 10:03 AM
what I meant, AllWeatherGal, was that in these 'L' programs, they make you ride with TONS of mistakes (they have even asked people to fall off during a test, and have their horses jump out of the arena!)

Plus, I am taking a 3.5 yr old filly, a stallion who is very very green, and a 6 year old gelding who is very green as well. I expect us to give the 'L' program people lots of things to discuss!

What fun would it be if I took the 14 yr old GP horse??

AllWeatherGal
May. 19, 2007, 10:07 AM
OMG ... GC ... aren't you riding in a clinic today? Don't you have horses to brush and load and trailer?

Dude ... you just ride well today and remember, no matter how it goes, that this clinic *is* something you wanted desperately (even tho you kept sayin you didn't!) ... and enjoy every second.

OH ... and regarding the "L" ... if you can ride WITH deliberate mistakes, and you're willing to do that with your younguns, more power to you. Whoever laughs should become incontinent as punishment ;)

exvet
May. 19, 2007, 10:23 AM
Whoever laughs should become incontinent as punishment :lol:

I think you might need to come up with something else as some of us might already be......uh, of that age ;)

I will say that for a thread that has been "put to rest" this one has certainly provided the OP with not only a sounding board, a means to a specific end, and perhaps even a bit of publicity for someone who's trying to drum up business for a training/lesson program.

Whether it was intentional or not.....very clever GC ;) It certainly sounds like you have some depth to your riding string and I doubt many will laugh at you regardless what happens. While people here in the dressage circles are like everywhere else and include the full spectrum - railbirds, computer jockeys, snarky/petty wannabe's, those with more money than sense and those without either - there are also many, many more who's passion for the disclipline and love of the horse shine through and can look past so much of the BS that goes on to really see the talent, athletic ability, and hard work that is in front of them regardless of whatever personal opinions they may have regarding the rider or the horse. I have a feeling that you can probably deliver but........graciousness and humility can sometimes lessen the BS and the need to "prove it" ;) .....They may say "with age comes wisdom" but in reality with age hopefully there have been some hard earned lessons learned. Lets hope everyone here as expanded on that adage and as Allweather said - ride your socks off and enjoy :yes:

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 19, 2007, 10:28 AM
thank you..I didnt mean to offend anyone, but that happened, and I apologise.

Dalfan
May. 19, 2007, 11:26 AM
What fun would it be if I took the 14 yr old GP horse??

Wasn't that the whole point? So you as a "pro" (and I use that term lightly) could advance the skills of FEI level horse?

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 19, 2007, 11:27 AM
we were talking about the 'L' program demo rides, not the clinic....

Anselcat
May. 21, 2007, 09:43 AM
thank you..I didnt mean to offend anyone, but that happened, and I apologise.

GC, your first post did offend me (an AA) a bit, but it's classy of you to apologise. Have fun at the "L" demo, will you get to see the trainee judges' comments? It would be interesting to see how much the scores/comments vary among the learning judges.

Shay Darra
May. 21, 2007, 09:54 AM
So, how was the clinic? Inquiring minds want to know.

SD

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 21, 2007, 10:31 AM
well..the instruction was great, howver the redheaded trakehner stallion was the worst he has been since I re-broke him in october! his best moments at the clinic were less than his worst EVER moments at home.

It was the first time I have taken him off the property, and being a stud and green, he decided that he was more than happy to sit behind my leg the entire time...but that is ok, the more he gets off property the better he will be, I didn't really expect him to get off the trailer and want to go to work with a good attitude.

(And people thought I was joking when I said "watch me get my ass bucked off!")

ha. ha.

SillyHorse
May. 21, 2007, 02:37 PM
So you as a "pro" (and I use that term lightly)...
Do you know Gucci cowgirl? If you don't, that was uncalled for.

Dalfan
May. 21, 2007, 05:10 PM
Do you know Gucci cowgirl? If you don't, that was uncalled for.

I don't think so. A "pro" is not just about riding. It's also about how you conduct yourself. The arrogance and sense of entitlement regarding the initial posts, and subsequent clarifications, leaves much to be desired, in my opinion, of a "pro".

Someone must have agreed with me, hence why all the deletions of the OP.

SillyHorse
May. 21, 2007, 05:27 PM
The USEF defines a pro, not you. Gucci Cowgirl explained why she deleted her posts.

Dalfan
May. 21, 2007, 06:56 PM
The USEF defines a pro, not you.

They only determine status, not if someone conducts themselves in a professional way.


Gucci Cowgirl explained why she deleted her posts.

She did? Where?

Gucci Cowgirl
May. 21, 2007, 07:31 PM
the reason I deleted my posts was because I went back and read them, and realized how bitchy they sounded...




there

Dalfan
May. 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
Thanks.

SillyHorse
May. 22, 2007, 09:47 AM
You see, when people actually read the posts, rather than being consumed by having to have the last word (like you do below), they know what they're writing about. :) :lol: :D :winkgrin: :lol:

Dalfan
May. 22, 2007, 10:14 AM
So true, Sillyhorse, so true.:cool:

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 12:50 PM
let those without sin throw the first stone :)

Lambie Boat
May. 23, 2007, 03:46 PM
last word? what's that?:D