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View Full Version : Was there a sale on shadbellies recently? (Warning - un-PC vent!)



ESG
May. 6, 2007, 11:13 PM
Because I've never before seen so many people wearing them that shouldn't be, as I did today. :rolleyes:

So, another USDF show today (and yesterday). I scribed this morning and early afternoon, for a wonderful judge. Started with GP and PSG this morning, followed by FEI freestyles and the odd I1 or I2 ride.

It wasn't pretty. :no:

Why, oh why, do people overface themselves and their horses? There were horses showing GP that would have been perfectly at home at 2nd/3rd. I won't go into the scores, except to say they were reflective of the rides. But, damn! I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.

STF
May. 6, 2007, 11:30 PM
I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.
__________________



My feelings are deeply offended!

ESG
May. 6, 2007, 11:39 PM
You know perfectly well that I didn't mean you. :p

BTW, your friend LJ has a nice horse that did a nice PSG test today. But you'd have given her a run for her money. ;)

Velvet
May. 7, 2007, 12:20 AM
I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.

The real tragedy is that a lot of the people don't leave the state and go to some big, good shows, elsewhere in the country to find out what it really can and should look like. It happens everywhere in the country, for a while. Then some brave souls go away and start to see what really competitive dressage looks like as you get to the higher levels, and they reset their expectations. Another thing that helps is going somewhere else and getting some lessons on trained FEI horses. That makes the most lasting impression.

I've seen it happen in other states, too. It just seems some states are still behind the dressage curve in this country. Probably in TX it's due to the fact that most people are still riding in western saddles and fewer are riding dressage. I'm just guessing on that one...

STF
May. 7, 2007, 12:33 AM
You know perfectly well that I didn't mean you. :p

BTW, your friend LJ has a nice horse that did a nice PSG test today. But you'd have given her a run for her money. ;)


Oh, I dont think so. That woman can ride circles around most everyone I know! She is a very correct and lovely rider who on top of that has great training skills. I respect her alot.
After this last foal is born, Im planning on going and spending a weekend training session with her and looking super forward to it! :)

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 09:33 AM
Cool! Did we have a baby over the weekend? Tell!

And, when you go, be sure to take the red menace with you. After what I saw this weekend, you'll clean up with him. :yes:

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 09:38 AM
The real tragedy is that a lot of the people don't leave the state and go to some big, good shows, elsewhere in the country to find out what it really can and should look like. It happens everywhere in the country, for a while. Then some brave souls go away and start to see what really competitive dressage looks like as you get to the higher levels, and they reset their expectations. Another thing that helps is going somewhere else and getting some lessons on trained FEI horses. That makes the most lasting impression.

True, but it seems to happen here more frequently than other places I've lived. :sigh:


I've seen it happen in other states, too. It just seems some states are still behind the dressage curve in this country. Probably in TX it's due to the fact that most people are still riding in western saddles and fewer are riding dressage. I'm just guessing on that one...

Actually, it looks to me like the number of dressage riders is starting to rival the number of western riders. But then, I don't spend much time in western barns, either, so it could be a matter of perspective.

Either way, many of the bad rides I saw yesterday , were by people who should know much, much better. It's always disheartening to see a downward trend in competency, training and riding in one's area. :no:

SGray
May. 7, 2007, 11:24 AM
I'd say the trainers should discourage their students from entering above their heads - and even when you don't personally know connections you can get a pretty good idea from looking at the stall chart (which is still up on hds website)

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 02:35 PM
I would agree with you, if it weren't the trainers who were usually the guilty parties. :uhoh:

SGray
May. 7, 2007, 02:57 PM
well, I looked at the list of classes/riders - I have to disagree with you - about the trend

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 03:25 PM
I don't think so. I've been in and out of Texas for nearly 20 years, and I've never seen it this bad before. People are showing FEI who used to show FEI well (or, at least adequately), and making an absolute hash out of it. The horses,..........well, all I can say is that they're saints. But the majority have had their day, if you take my meaning. Just, people who should know better are going backwards in their training/showing, not progressing. Very, very disheartening. :no:

SGray
May. 7, 2007, 03:26 PM
I'll try to get to the next show and have a look - sad if they are devolving

OnCue
May. 7, 2007, 03:46 PM
I blame the judges (because I'm not one. lol!). But really, if a tempi change is crap, and the judges would actually SCORE it as crap (that's what - a 2? Yeah, pretty sure in the directives, 2=crap), maybe people would get the message. It's easy to convince yourself to move up if you consistently get low 60's. I think it would be harder if you actually saw a well deserved 40 once in awhile. Of course, you'd have to pay those judges big bucks to make it worth their time, because we know they'd never be invited back again.

SGray
May. 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
ESG - were the scores appropriate?

Sonesta
May. 7, 2007, 04:24 PM
There were some 50.% scores in FEI - deserved.

Dalfan
May. 7, 2007, 04:31 PM
I'm curious if the judges made any comments on the tests regarding her thoughts on the level they should be at, or not.

flshgordon
May. 7, 2007, 04:50 PM
Well the one thing I will say was encouraging was that one woman we met said the judge called her up after the class and said her horse appeared uneven or sore somewhere and that her scores would reflect that. She was not unkind about it, but made sure that the woman knew what the scores meant. I think she (owner) appreciated the judge's candor very much and was going to get him checked out by a vet even though she could not feel what the judge saw. I think it's great that a judge would point out something like this instead of ignoring it. That is not always the case.

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 04:52 PM
Actually, there were several "1s" "awarded", and to more than one rider. And yes, at FEI. 'Nuff said, I think.

And, Dalfan, I don't know whether or not the judges are allowed to make comments as you suggest. Certainly there were some observations made to me (and, to the other scribes, I'm sure) as to a particular horse/rider's fitness for a particular level of competition, but none of my judge's ever made it to paper. I'm thinking that they're not supposed to do anything but judge what's presented to them - period.

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 04:53 PM
ESG - were the scores appropriate?

Generous, I'd say. :uhoh: I'm not sure I'd have been as kind as a few of the judges were.

Liz
May. 7, 2007, 06:37 PM
ESG - as someone living in Texas how am I supposed to be anything but offended by your post? You saw some bad rides at a show...fine. Since you say you have been in and out of Texas for the past 20 years I am assuming that you know it is a very LARGE state. If the show was in the Houston area it is fair to assume you saw mostly Houston barns, if the show was in the Dallas area mostly barns from that area, Austin shows usually get San Antonio/Austin area.

You have a right to your opinion and based on previous posts I have respected what you have had to say but to categorize all dressage in the state of Texas based on this show leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

STF
May. 7, 2007, 07:01 PM
I dont think its in TX, I think its a bit everywhere.
But I am not going to complain and the only one I am worried about anymore in the ring is myself and my horses. If someone does not like what Im doing, who Im riding, what my scores are, they can kiss my big wide butt!
:)

Liz
May. 7, 2007, 07:12 PM
I know STF and I agree. It just irks me to be lumped into an "all Texasn ride like crap and have always ridden like crap" thread when Texas is a big state. I wasn't even near a friggin show this weekend, I don't know who these crappy riders are so why am I being grouped with them just because I live in Texas.

STF
May. 7, 2007, 07:19 PM
Becuase I know ESG personally and she is a good friend, I know what she meant to say. I even told her today on the phone that she lumped everyone in the mix and its not all like that. She knows this, but she was commenting on mostly the pro's showing at FEI level in the low 50's or with horses that were almost not sound, etc.

I know many great riders in this area. Sue Malone Casey is kicking butt at Grand Prix this year in the high 60's, the girl who qualified who rides Anabella (cant remember her name to save my life), Lyndon Riffe always does decent, Kia H shows decently most all thet ime. Lynne Jones is a super rider competition and trainer. Whit Watkins sets the standard as well. I mean there is talent here at FEI.
But like I told her today on the phone, with all the nastiness and the politics in this now, I "do my thing" and leave. Im nice to those who are nice to me and just keep my nose to the ground.
Makes life a lot easier.

Liz
May. 7, 2007, 07:23 PM
All right....I see what you are saying (Liz climbs off soapbox).

You know I usually kind of agree with ESG, I guess that is why I got so bent out of shape.

stuge
May. 7, 2007, 08:46 PM
Ya know we all do it at some point or another - make a big generalization like I am sure the OP didn't literally mean every single dressage rider in Texas. I knew what she meant and I have said the same thing about my state even though we have a few fairly well known and respectable trainers that aren't that way. It is easy to get frustrated when 95% of them are like that and easy to forget the 5% that are good. But I would bet money it is a problem throughout the country, not just Texas.

i have a friend that has been chasing her PSG scores for a year and a half now. She bought a very expensive GP schoolmaster and even when she was only at the time maybe a decent 2nd level rider she jumped right out there at 4th. She never scored what I considered great scores even at 4th but got at least two or three (whatever it takes for your medal) and even got a 60 in one test at PSG last year but has ridden about twenty tests since then and can't get that last score. I agree with whoever said the judges need to get harsher. If she was getting consistant low 50s or high 40s she would probably take the hint but since she is getting mid to high 50s she just thinks she needs to improve the half passes or get a better score on the lead changes. I also agree that trainers need to get tough. A friend of mine was with my trainer and my trainer told her that she would not let her show under her name until she got some of her basics straightened out. Guess what, she now has an even bigger named trainer that won't tell her like it is. It's her loss though because she won't get better until she "gets it", if that makes any sense

Caroline Weber
May. 7, 2007, 08:58 PM
I know what you mean about people riding way above their abilities...you can have an area with many talented riders that leaves a bad taste in your mouth because there is a cluster of 15 or 20 people are somewhat delusional.

The trainer I'm a WS for runs schooling shows in the summer...since I do whatever needs to be done, I score, scribe, park trailers, whatever...at the last show we held, a girl who was *maybe* ready for first level showed her horse at third. Their extended trot was a crappy lengthening and their half-passes were choppy, overbent leg-yields. The judge gave them something around a 50 (pretty generous, in my mind) but wrote at the bottom of the test "horse and rider need to work on CORRECT BASICS before attempting this level again".

Some judges are too generous. Others have the balls to give the scores that are deserved. Some riders, on the other hand, need to learn that judges don't give bad scores because they're bitter or conniving, but because they truly want you to allow the scores and the comments show you your weak points so that you can IMPROVE.

Ah well, maybe one of these days, people will actually get it. I'm not holding my breath though. :lol:

J-Lu
May. 7, 2007, 09:19 PM
I've seen it happen in other states, too. It just seems some states are still behind the dressage curve in this country. Probably in TX it's due to the fact that most people are still riding in western saddles and fewer are riding dressage. I'm just guessing on that one...

Oh Please! It's not that way at all!

I'd like to also add that at this show, on Saturday there were, I think, 5 rings going with ONE, yes, ONE warm-up arena. The warm-up was downright dangerous and it was impossible for people to get anything accomplished. Some people were schooling on the dirt road to the outdoor arenas because the grass was apparently soggy from the recent rain. And coats were waived due to the heat and humidity.

I'd also like to add that there are "big" trainers with the low scores at FEI in this state's dressage community. Can't blame the amateurs here. This is why I am always skeptical at the blanket advice of "go ask your trainer". It is admittedly a bit embarassing but no one can stop these people from showing and scoring frequently in the 50s (one of these trainers flipped off a judge at regional championships because the person didn't know a rule and got eliminated - how that for professional?)

THat said, there are a number of very good trainers here who may or may not have a FEI horse at the moment or at this past show. Several good FEI-level competitors around here did not compete at FEI at this show. Further, I haven't seen anyone mention the quality of the young horses in the area (and at this show) - several very good trainers are headed to selection trials this year.

Bottom line: this isn't Central or Southern CA, and it isn't New England or Florida. But we aren't too different from most other areas of the country and we're home to the fastest growing (and richest, actually) GMO in the country.

J.

J-Lu
May. 7, 2007, 09:20 PM
oops, it posted twice!

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 09:44 PM
ESG - as someone living in Texas how am I supposed to be anything but offended by your post? You saw some bad rides at a show...fine. Since you say you have been in and out of Texas for the past 20 years I am assuming that you know it is a very LARGE state. If the show was in the Houston area it is fair to assume you saw mostly Houston barns, if the show was in the Dallas area mostly barns from that area, Austin shows usually get San Antonio/Austin area.

Please show me where I said all Texas riders are crap. I didn't. I wouldn't. I'm one of them. :p

And, just FYI, there were folks from San Antonio, Dallas, Austin, and lots of other places in the state. Hardly just a Houston show.


You have a right to your opinion and based on previous posts I have respected what you have had to say but to categorize all dressage in the state of Texas based on this show leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

You'd have a worse one if you'd seen the rides I saw yesterday. :yes:

KateWooten
May. 7, 2007, 09:57 PM
Sorry - nothing constructive to add to the discussion about Texas dressage, just wanted to share this little piece of shame with you all to make you laugh ...


horse and rider need to work on CORRECT BASICS before attempting this level again

That's exactly what I had written on my score sheet one time ..... it was Intro A :eek: :eek: :eek:

Aggie4Bar
May. 7, 2007, 10:05 PM
That's exactly what I had written on my score sheet one time ..... it was Intro A :eek: :eek: :eek::lol: That's terrible! I'd have died. :o :lol:

FEIwannabe
May. 7, 2007, 11:03 PM
I'm still waiting for the un-PC part... where's the un-PC part?

ESG
May. 7, 2007, 11:12 PM
Just that it seems to be un-PC to make anything but a flattering observation on the state of dressage anywhere in this country. God forbid we should all actually learn something from the judges for whose opinion we pay. :rolleyes:

STF
May. 7, 2007, 11:18 PM
Some people may just be doing it for fun and not really care if its correct or not. Some people may have a 50% as a goal, I dunno.
Each to their own, and well just share a drink with em all!!! ;)

ThreeFigs
May. 7, 2007, 11:55 PM
OK, I haven't seen Texas dressage since the late 1960's, when there were probably a dozen folks in the state who knew what that was, but I can ditto what ESG said about some of the stuff we see here in Colorado. And what I used to see in Minnesota. Some good, some middling, a lot really awful. OK, so we're all struggling along to learn this dressage stuff.

Two weeks ago, I had the pleasure of auditing a young horse training clinic with Johannes Westendarp in Maryland. There was a mix of amateur and professional riders, with young horses 4, 5, and 6 years of age. The good riders there (whether ammie or pro) were a revelation and an inspiration. I want to hold those images in my mind's eye forever. We just don't see many horses and riders of that caliber in Colorado. Sorry -- it's true. it's a whole different world outside of our little square state. It's a good thing to get out and see what dressage is like in other parts of the country.

Good for you, ESG, for callin' em like you see em!

Ryka
May. 8, 2007, 03:03 AM
I am under the impression that it is a privilege to be a scribe. Should one really discuss or even walk around anything a judge said to them regarding competitors and their mounts?

If one isn't currently competing at a level, do they really have room to insult or complain about riders who are out there riding those levels, even if they are receiving 50's? Not to mention, do you not think its a bad reflection of you as a professional to be talking poorly of your fellow professionals?

Honestly, this thread just sounds like more rail-bird chatter. :rolleyes:

ESG
May. 8, 2007, 09:24 AM
Scribes are still allowed to have opinions. In case you didn't read it, this thread is just that - an opinion and vent. I have mentioned no names, given no scores, or identified any riders/horses. It's what's known as a "general commentary".

And yes - just because one isn't currently competing at a level, doesn't mean that one doesn't have the requisite knowlege/talent/experience to both know what is required at that level and to get there. If you want my qualifications, ask me. But don't ASS-u-me that just because I'm sitting and writing down the judges' comments on other FEI riders, doesn't mean that I can't do the job myself.

And, let me see if I understand you: if a "fellow professional" performs poorly at a given level, no one's allowed to say anything? Sorry, but no. These are the people who are training others. If they aren't doing it right, what does it say about what they're teaching their students/horses? Let's face it - horse training isn't brain surgery. The basics are,......well, pretty basic. All of the overfaced horses lacked a good foundation, and more than a couple of the riders could have used a brush-up. And we're not talking Training/First level here - this was FEI for chrissakes! If you're going to ride at international level, you'd better damned well have your stuff together.

So says this "railbird", anyway. :p

And if it makes you feel any better, there were more than a couple of amateurs who were overfacing themselves and their horses. :p

Hony
May. 8, 2007, 10:25 AM
Speaking of shadbellies:) I just looked at this coat and think I'm going to buy it and I only ride 1st level. Apparently it isn't a shadbellie but it may confuse some people in to thinking it is. I have heard some call it pretentious but I love it and it fits better than any jacket I have ever worn. I guess it will also keep me away from any shadbellie sales that might cause me to want to show PSG to soon:D

http://www.equestrianfashions.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=892890&Category_Code=designer_cavallo&Product_Count=7

http://www.freewebs.com/mlbrowbands/showcoats.htm

Shanlouare
May. 8, 2007, 11:15 AM
These riders are trying and I think that is the key element in going to any show. You have your opinion, as do I.

Showing is hard and can be quite different than schooling the same test in the sanctuary of your personal arena and pasture, and on horses that may have special needs or personalities...

I do like to see good tests also, but I personally wouldn't judge anyone, who's attempting a test, with a horse that I also have no earthly clue about.

There's plenty other things to judge in this world, besides bashing shad belly wearing riders who are trying to show their horses.

And who the hell cares what other people show up wearing to THEIR horse shows. I care about what I am wearing, not what my fellow riders are wearing around me. And there's no need to target Texas, poor dressage is everywhere... And if these professionals don't meet your standards, don't put them on your payroll for lessons.

That is MY opinion...

Ryka
May. 8, 2007, 11:27 AM
KUDOS Hony AND Shanlouare!!!!! :yes: :yes: :yes:

It is one thing to have an opinion, but it's another to have an opinion and be a professional that wants to attract and have students and/or training horses as I presume you do, esg. It is very un-professional to speak badly of those who are your professional competition for students/training horses, especially in the horse world since it is so small.

Any person that says they are a professional, but takes the time to "vent" about other riders on a public BB isn't very professional IMHO. A trainer that has much to them isn't on the computer flaunting their opionions, they're out at the barn riding the horses, giving lessons, and attracting new students/horses.

ESG since you have offered, what have you done that makes you feel so compelled to feel as if you can 'vent' about the current status of FEI riders in Texas (or anywhere for that matter)? Please do list your accomplishments.

writeschecks
May. 8, 2007, 11:40 AM
I had the privilege of attending the show this weekend. I came from a different region to cheer on a dear friend attempting to obtain her bronze medal.

The facility was super. You all are so lucky to have that venue for shows. Now on to the rides. I too saw some not so good rides. But I have seen not so good rides in Florida, California, and East Coast. The region I am in is in the same boat as Region 9. There are a few really nice horses, a few really nice riders, and a lot of other stuff. I thought that quality of horse flesh was great. The problem with the middle of the country is that all the big stuff is on the coasts. The big CDI's, a lot of money, sponsors etc.

I think that the positive is that the show was huge and well run. The downside is the inability to attract good trainers to our areas. The problem in our region is that nobody wants to "pay" a good trainer. Trainers need to be able to make a living, and too few people are willing to pay for it. In the Midwest we are known for being "frugal"(cheap), and that is a big part of our problem.

So please do not feel alone, it happens in a lot of places, not saying that it is right, but we all have to start somewhere, and attendance at shows helps GMO's to make money to support educational opportunities for it's members.


:winkgrin:

flshgordon
May. 8, 2007, 11:48 AM
I have to come to ESG's defense, in that the quality of the upper level rides at this rec. show vs the last one we had here was definitely lower. The scores were on the whole much lower at upper levels. Last time there were many scores in the high 60s and a couple 70s then some mid-upper 50s as well. When I first got a look at the UL scores this weekend I was surprised by the low scores but I have to admit I was busy riding my own horse so I didn't see all those rides. But across the board, UL scores seemed a lot lower than the last rec. show we had here to me and I'm just a lowly TL rider. I don't know the reason, nor if it had anything to do with shadbellies, but I can say that ESG isn't making it up.

DJ
May. 8, 2007, 11:49 AM
Oh, my GOSH ESG....I so feel your pain. I went from watching stuff in Europe and hearing how much dressage had improved in the three years I was gone, to coming back to pretty much what we are seeing today! It isn't lack of talent available. But it is true that we have people going into classes that they probably shouldn't. But I wonder if the lack of competition encourages some people to get bold and try anyway, because if you are the only 3 in the class everyone gets a ribbon? I don't know. I hope this stops. I can hardly stand to watch the shows anymore.

And I don't think that it is unprofessional to speak up about this. If we are ever going to improve in this state, there needs to be a shake up/wake up of some kind. Once there are rides that merit positive mention, then one can applaud them. :cool:

Ryka
May. 8, 2007, 11:55 AM
I have to come to ESG's defense, in that the quality of the upper level rides at this rec. show vs the last one we had here was definitely lower. The scores were on the whole much lower at upper levels. Last time there were many scores in the high 60s and a couple 70s then some mid-upper 50s as well.

Is it possible the judges are from other parts of the country where perhaps they are used to seeing more competitive dressage, especially at the higher levels? When I see the same group of riders at the same level at multiple shows throughout the year, I look and see the scores as a whole. To me the "trend" of the scores depends on the locale of the judges.

flshgordon
May. 8, 2007, 12:04 PM
Yes I do think a couple of these judges were from other parts of the country, perhaps that does have something to do with it. But at the last show I did have a chance to watch the UL classes and the rides seemed very deserving of the high scores. It could be a combination of the two, although I was still surprised that the scores were SIGNIFICANTLY lower at this show as in maybe 10 %pts on average. That is a lot for just different judges.

Some of them were more regional judges though and the judge I scored best on was from no where near here. The judge who kicked my butt the most? from Texas :winkgrin: although my 62% was enough for 3rd :eek: in that one---her scores were low overall.

I am new to this big dressage show stuff (and this one was huge) so that's just my amateurish-take on how it seemed to me.

J-Lu
May. 8, 2007, 01:43 PM
I have to come to ESG's defense, in that the quality of the upper level rides at this rec. show vs the last one we had here was definitely lower. The scores were on the whole much lower at upper levels. Last time there were many scores in the high 60s and a couple 70s then some mid-upper 50s as well. When I first got a look at the UL scores this weekend I was surprised by the low scores but I have to admit I was busy riding my own horse so I didn't see all those rides. But across the board, UL scores seemed a lot lower than the last rec. show we had here to me and I'm just a lowly TL rider. I don't know the reason, nor if it had anything to do with shadbellies, but I can say that ESG isn't making it up.

ESG isn't making it up - there were low scores. There's alot of reason for those low scores, including the fact that some of the riders and horses were overfaced. And many of the usuals weren't at this show. But there were also decent scores at FEI. That wasn't mentioned.

Of course the S judges were from other parts of the country.

BUT, I stand firm on the idea that it is incredibly tacky to start a thread titled "there must have been a sale on shadbellies" while refering to a *specific* show on a public bulletin board, and state that it is no wonder that TX has a bad rap with dressage judges. This has nothing to do with texas and nothing to do with the *fact* that many rides weren't pretty. To me, it's just a tasteless blanket statement to post on an internet board. There were many more constructive ways to bring up the same problem without snarking the competitors at a specific show (ESG, have you ever gone up to the other indoor scribe at this show, who showed FEI on her little horse, and a) asked her if there was a sale on shadbellies recently or b) tell her she's amongst the riders that give TX a bad rap? How do you think she'd feel? STF, does your trainer contribute to the "bad rap" in Texas if her ride didn't go as well as she'd hoped?). Alot of factors contribute to a bad ride besides overfaced horses and overfaced riders.

Lastly, there ARE a few good trainers in the area, Writeschecks! And there is no lack of money in the Houston dressage scene - good trainers make a decent living here (but so do the not-so-good).

J.

ESG
May. 8, 2007, 07:35 PM
J-Lu, I'm not sure what you mean about "going up to the other indoor scribe" and making whatever comment. If you clarify, I'll try to answer.

I'm commenting on good riders who I have watched for years, who have shown FEI in the past and made a damned good job of it (one was actually national champion, on a horse she made herself!), that put in seriously wretched performances. Yes, we all have bad shows, and have crappy performances where either the rider or the horse seems to have left their brain in the warm-up. But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about riders who used to score respectably at FEI, who are now bringing in horses who are not on the bit, not physically prepared for the work, and totally overfaced at the level. I guess I just don't understand how someone could go out and do it right a very few years back, and suddenly come in and suck bigtime. What happened to bringing the horses up the levels and being competent (or <gasp!> expert!) at the level one is showing? What happened to schooling at least a level above where one is showing? Is that now a thing of the past? :confused:

And Ryka, I've made two FEI horses from scratch, and ridden/coached horses and riders to regional championships through second level. If you want further information, PT me. And even if I hadn't, it doesn't take much expertise to watch a tempi pass and be able to accurately describe it as "change-change-prop-crowhop-crosscanter-stop-rear-trot-canter-change-badchange-crowhop-change", and have the judge score it a "1" to know there's something seriously amiss here. And when both tempi passes in the same test read like that, and get the same score, it's really tragic. :p

Liz
May. 8, 2007, 07:51 PM
ESG - I am sure your observatons at the show were right on, I bet they really were awful rides. I went back and reread the original post. IMO, instead of prompting a discussion about trainers who overface their horses your post became antagonistic with the snarkey comment about shadbellies on sale and the comment about how Texas dressage is viewed throughout the country. I have no illusion that in Texas you don't see the same quality as say Florida (I am from Florida) but the scene you describe in your first post is not unique to Texas. We do not have the monopoly on poor riders/trainers. That is my only issue.

As far as trainers who overface their horses, I can only hope the judges come down on them like a ton of bricks and it is too bad this thread got hijacked into a Texas thing and did not focus on that point.

darcyv
May. 8, 2007, 09:06 PM
not worth it

Liz
May. 8, 2007, 09:39 PM
n/a

ESG
May. 8, 2007, 10:36 PM
ESG - I am sure your observatons at the show were right on, I bet they really were awful rides. I went back and reread the original post. IMO, instead of prompting a discussion about trainers who overface their horses your post became antagonistic with the snarkey comment about shadbellies on sale and the comment about how Texas dressage is viewed throughout the country. I have no illusion that in Texas you don't see the same quality as say Florida (I am from Florida) but the scene you describe in your first post is not unique to Texas. We do not have the monopoly on poor riders/trainers. That is my only issue.

I also am a native Floridian, and spent 3 1/2 years living and working in Wellington, in the recent past. While I agree that there are bad rides/riders everywhere, I was appalled to see the depths to which this region has sunk. I also scribed at the last USDF show held locally, and the FEI rides, while not all they could have been, were far superior to what I witnessed Sunday. I also scribed for many shows during my stay in Wellington, and competed and coached at more than a few. I never saw the plethora of mediocre (and some abysmal) rides that I witnessed of late there, that I have here. Sorry, but that's just my experience.


As far as trainers who overface their horses, I can only hope the judges come down on them like a ton of bricks and it is too bad this thread got hijacked into a Texas thing and did not focus on that point.

Your hopes have been realized. The riders whose training/preparation were substandard were scored accordingly. And those who did their homework and schooled and prepared correctly were also scored accordingly. Our own flshgordon and a couple of her barnmates did quite well, because they'd prepared properly and showed their horses at appropriate levels. There were good rides; it's just that they were vastly outnumbered by the bad. :sigh:

DukesMom
May. 8, 2007, 10:43 PM
ESG I know who you are and I can say for sure, as I have just looked for your name on the USDF list to medal recipients, that if you trained two horses to the FEI level, as you so boldly claim to have, you either you did not show them or did not, at the very least, get two scores in the 60%'s at the required levels because I am sure you would have already stated so. Oh, please do give your scores and credentials, or better yet post a video of yourself doing a better job.... and riding the FEI horses you trained!

I should be offended by your comments, after all I am a Texas dressage rider and was an FEI rider at the show you are speaking of, but then again, your bashing of riders at the show, especially as a scribe, speaks volumes of your character and professionalism so why would I let someone like you offend me.

Good FEI horses are few and far between and a good one, if you can find one, are very expensive costing more then the average professional or ammie can afford. (My saddle cost more then my horse.:lol: ) Even the superior horses at the top of the GP leader board all over the world have their own set of problems and even at the Olympics and WEG I see people/horses, leading with the haunches in the half-pass, missed tempi changes, messed up zig-zags, spooking, tension, bad halts, slouching riders, uneven horses, and the list goes on and on and on and on................................

My horse is a saint at home, very relaxed, but when I go to a show he is very nervous and tense and doesn't always put in the stellar test I know we are capable of, so are you telling me I should not show him? We have gone through all the levels, obtained our bronze and silver medal, every score was received on the first try, with all scores being in the mid to high 60%'s and a few 70%'s at 2nd & 3rd level. There are many factors that go into a good test so do not assume that the riders are always bad or should not be there. Do you bother to think that they may have had a bad day?

Point being...no one person or horse is perfect and riding is VERY DIFFICULT and yes even the basics are difficult. After all we spend the horses entire life working to make them better and work to improve their, and our, short comings. Whether it be more suppleness, strengthening that back, getting more swing, working to sit that bouncy trot, etc............

I do not think anyone at that show went out there intending to do a bad job. I saw a lot of riding that made me cringe but I also know how hard those people are working to make themselves better and how much they desperately want to do this very difficult sport we call dressage. Do not discredit these people but give them the courtesy of a little respect and don't dash their dreams and aspirations. Having done it myself and knowing how hard it is, I, instead of criticizing them, sympathies with how difficult and expensive it is. It is only people like you that make Texas dressage riders look bad.

Meet me at center line!

darcyv
May. 8, 2007, 10:45 PM
Ok, that's it. I tried to keep my mouth shut (er, hands clasped), but enough is enough. ESG, please, do tell us the names of these horses you have trained to FEI level. How someone who has never shown above 2nd level could possibly train a horse to FEI levels is beyond me.

And, exactly WHEN and in WHAT SHOWs did you compete in Wellington while you were there? I mean, I knew you there and you NEVER showed. In fact, you haven't shown for YEARS.

Being pompous is one thing, but outright falsehoods is something else entirely.

DukesMom
May. 8, 2007, 10:50 PM
Ok, that's it. I tried to keep my mouth shut (er, hands clasped), but enough is enough. ESG, please, do tell us the names of these horses you have trained to FEI level. How someone who has never shown above 2nd level could possibly train a horse to FEI levels is beyond me.

And, exactly WHEN and in WHAT SHOWs did you compete in Wellington while you were there? I mean, I knew you there and you NEVER showed. In fact, you haven't shown for YEARS.

Being pompous is one thing, but outright falsehoods is something else entirely.

Hands clapping loudly! Amen!

ESG
May. 8, 2007, 10:51 PM
Oh, darcyv you beat me to it!

ESG I know who you are and I can say for sure, as I have just looked for your name on the USDF list to medal recipients, that if you trained two horses to the FEI level, as you so boldly claim to have, you either you did not show them or did not, at the very least, get two scores in the 60%'s at the required levels because I am sure you would have already stated so. Oh, please do give your scores and credentials, or better yet post a video of yourself doing a better job.... and riding the FEI horses you trained!

cyndi, I know who you are, too. And, you know who I'm talking about, too. 'Nuff said. ;)


I should be offended by your comments, after all I am a Texas dressage rider and was an FEI rider at the show you are speaking of, but then again, your bashing of riders at the show, especially as a scribe, speaks volumes of your character and professionalism so why would I let someone like you offend me.

Not in my ring. I would have remembered. And, if your performance was on par for what you usually present, it would have been memorable for its competence and correctness, rather than the lack of those merits. ;)


Good FEI horses are few and far between and a good one, if you can find one, are very expensive costing more then the average professional or ammie can afford. (My saddle cost more then my horse.:lol: ) Even the superior horses at the top of the GP leader board all over the world have their own set of problems and even at the Olympics and WEG I see people/horses, leading with the haunches in the half-pass, missed tempi changes, messed up zig-zags, spooking, tension, bad halts, slouching riders, uneven horses, and the list goes on and on and on and on................................

And if that were the only issue, I would agree with you. But it isn't. And, if you're honest with yourself (or if you saw the rides I did), you'd have the same opinion. You've been around long enough to know the difference between one bad day, and not being close to being prepared for the level being shown. Let's be realistic, shall we?


My horse is a saint at home, very relaxed, but when I go to a show he is very nervous and tense and doesn't always put in the stellar test I know we are capable of, so are you telling me I should not show him? We have gone through all the levels, obtained our bronze and silver medal, every score was received on the first try, with all scores being in the mid to high 60%'s and a few 70%'s at 2nd & 3rd level. There are many factors that go into a good test so do not assume that the riders are always bad or should not be there. Do you bother to think that they may have had a bad day?

See above.


Point being...no one person or horse is perfect and riding is VERY DIFFICULT and yes even the basics are difficult. After all we spend the horses entire life working to make them better and work to improve their, and our, short comings. Whether it be more suppleness, strengthening that back, getting more swing, working to sit that bouncy trot, etc............

Absolutely. And those things should be worked out at First, Second, Third levels - not FEI.


I do not think anyone at that show went out there intending to do a bad job. I saw a lot of riding that made me cringe but I also know how hard those people are working to make themselves better and how much they desperately want to do this very difficult sport we call dressage. Do not discredit these people but give them the courtesy of a little respect and don't dash their dreams and aspirations. Having done it myself and knowing how hard it is, I, instead of criticizing them, sympathies with how difficult and expensive it is. It is only people like you that make Texas dressage riders look bad.

Um, no. They do that with no help from me. :rolleyes:

And, frankly, I'm surprised at you. You've brought several horses up the levels that are non-traditional dressage breeds and done well. I think that's marvelous. And you've paid attention to the basic training that provides the solid foundation from which one can move correctly up the levels. The people I'm talking about have not done what you have, or what I have. Bash me as much as you want, and call me rude or unsympathetic, but when I see someone showing FEI who clearly has prepared neither their horse or themselves for the task at hand, I'm not going to be PC, pretend they're good and give them credit for "trying". "Trying" means spit. They are the ones you should be bashing, as detriments to the reputation of Texas dressage riders - not me.


Meet me at center line!

No problem. :cool:

DukesMom
May. 8, 2007, 10:55 PM
Sorry, this was not NOT written by Cyndi! Computer problem?
Edit to say: she probably did not log out!

ESG
May. 8, 2007, 10:59 PM
Ok, that's it. I tried to keep my mouth shut (er, hands clasped), but enough is enough. ESG, please, do tell us the names of these horses you have trained to FEI level. How someone who has never shown above 2nd level could possibly train a horse to FEI levels is beyond me.

Clearly, there are lots of things beyond you; one, being your statement about what I have and have not done.


And, exactly WHEN and in WHAT SHOWs did you compete in Wellington while you were there? I mean, I knew you there and you NEVER showed. In fact, you haven't shown for YEARS.

Wrong again - I did show while I was there. Coached a student to placing at regionals, too. But you are right - I haven't shown in a few years. That's what happens when you lose your competition mount to colic, and have to start over again. And again. And again.

darcyv
May. 8, 2007, 11:05 PM
Er, and the names of those FEI horses you trained are............

And the shows in which you have ever shown above 2nd level are.............

Oh, and that competition mount you lost to colic, in what shows and in what level did you ever show him.......?

Dalfan
May. 8, 2007, 11:24 PM
Er, and the names of those FEI horses you trained are............

And the shows in which you have ever shown above 2nd level are.............

Oh, and that competition mount you lost to colic, in what shows and in what level did you ever show him.......?

Well, since you just joined today, and are very upset by ESG's comments, can I assume you were at the show? Riding? I see nothing wrong with her comments. Obviously, if the scores were that bad, perhaps the judge was thinking the same thing. And I would think knowledgeable people can tell the difference between a tough day to actual holes in the training. And I see no reason for ESG to lay out her career in riding/training to satisfy your pondering of her credentials. Her opinion of what she saw.

J-Lu
May. 8, 2007, 11:47 PM
Clearly, you have chosen to "miss" the competent FEI rides, including DukesMom's memorable freestyles and my barnmate's competent FEI rides. Your blanket statements are invalid - clearly, you have specific people in mind.

Are you scribing in June? Perhaps I can direct a number of people to you so you can ask them if shadbellies were on sale before their rides or tell them that they give riders in TX a bad name. I'm sure that discussing your opinion of them in person is the more honorable path to take.

Liz
May. 8, 2007, 11:51 PM
ESG - I don't doubt you saw bad rides. I just don't think Texas has a monopoly on bad rides. There is no part of the country that can compare to Florida and California. But are you an expert on the dressage scene in Oregan? What about Tennessee, Wyoming, Alaska? (no offence to ANYONE in those areas...I am just trying to prove a point)

If you wanted to discuss trainers overfacing their horses then you would not have put the snarkey comment about shadbellies and the national opinion about Texas dressage. You got what you asked for.

darcyv
May. 8, 2007, 11:53 PM
Nope. Wasn't at the show. I am in Florida. But I do know ESG and she is all mouth. And nothing to back it up with.

STF
May. 9, 2007, 01:01 AM
With or without ESG's comments, the riders scores will speak for themself, so......... why are yall all getting in such a rowdy mess over this.
Who cares...... drink some wine! :D

Sabine
May. 9, 2007, 01:03 AM
With or without ESG's comments, the riders scores will speak for themself, so......... why are yall all getting in such a rowdy mess over this.
Who cares...... drink some wine! :D

didn't read the thread- but I don't believe that good riding is confined to certain states and drinking wine is a good thing- especially after a long day's work!!! Cheers!

Ryka
May. 9, 2007, 01:50 AM
Yes, ESG did volunteer to provide us with information on her credentials and accomplishments, so she should have absolutely no qualms about listing them, especially if she's going to flaunt that they supposedly exist. ESG you talk of past students, do you have any current students showing out of your barn? What about horses you have in training?

Personally if I were a Texas dressage rider, I wouldn't want to have ESG scribe for the show, especially knowing now that she comes online and talks poorly of the riders. Perhaps the judges as well? ESG you'd have to be foolish not to know that any and everyone can read these posts of yours, and I'm sure your local riders can figure out quick just who you are... that is, if you're even well known? If you are, makes one wonder just how respected you are as a local trainer with all this bantering you do online.

I'd be embarrassed beyond belief to present myself as a professional, and then put into typed words my opinion that could possibly be used as slander or such if you were to ever name someone or hint of who they might be. Hell, I'd be embarrassed to even speak it to those who know any better!

:no: :no:

flshgordon
May. 9, 2007, 10:11 AM
With or without ESG's comments, the riders scores will speak for themself, so......... why are yall all getting in such a rowdy mess over this.
:D

I agree!!!

Why are you guys getting into such a tizzy over this? There were a lot of bad rides and a lot of scores that reflected that. No one, including ESG, said there weren't moments of brilliance. I think everyone should take a deep breath here and relax.

MyReality
May. 9, 2007, 10:30 AM
ESG is not the only person who think that. ;-)

So on one end of the spectrum, you have people who are stuck at training. On the other hand, you have people who show way beyond the horse/rider's ability.

Walter Zettle said in one clinic, a double bridle given to a bad rider, is like giving a razor blade to a monkey. But what do you see too often at shows/clinics: monkeys playing with razor blades.

This sport is filled with critical people. True. I also whole hearted agree that, a horse that is prepared and ready for a level, who give not such a great performance at shows, is very different from a horse that is totally not prepared and not ready or not able. I'm sure a judge can tell as well.

Ryka
May. 9, 2007, 10:59 AM
double post.

Ryka
May. 9, 2007, 11:03 AM
What I want to know is, why does everyone want to suck what fun is out of horses? Yes dressage is tedious and takes a lot of hard work, patients, hundreds of thousands of dollars, etc., but it's also a privledge that 1200lb+ animals let us tame them, and do all the crazy stuff we do to them.

There is absolutely no need for snarky comments. If you don't like seeing riders out there trying and having fun, don't go to the show, and most definantly do not scribe! If you aren't out there putting the hours in the saddle, and working your ass off to get places (even if it isn't near "perfect") I really don't see where anyone has room to insult, bash, and berate those out there putting themselves on 'the line', especially when they haven't produced any students or horses in YEARS!

:sigh: :mad:


Why are you guys getting into such a tizzy over this?

Because when people like ESG say such bitchy things, and they aren't banking hours in the saddle, showing, clinicing, etc. it grates the nerves and insults to the bone those who've worked their ass off, to have someone who may or may not be a "nobody" come on a public equestrian bb and bitch about their 'performance'. When on earth did regional dressage become entertainment for the masses!?

Pommederue
May. 9, 2007, 02:43 PM
I should be offended by your comments, after all I am a Texas dressage rider and was an FEI rider at the show you are speaking of, but then again, your bashing of riders at the show, especially as a scribe, speaks volumes of your character and professionalism so why would I let someone like you offend me................

I do not think anyone at that show went out there intending to do a bad job. I saw a lot of riding that made me cringe but I also know how hard those people are working to make themselves better and how much they desperately want to do this very difficult sport we call dressage. Do not discredit these people but give them the courtesy of a little respect and don't dash their dreams and aspirations.

Meet me at center line!


Yes, ................

Personally if I were a Texas dressage rider, I wouldn't want to have ESG scribe for the show, especially knowing now that she comes online and talks poorly of the riders. Perhaps the judges as well? ESG you'd have to be foolish not to know that any and everyone can read these posts of yours, and I'm sure your local riders can figure out quick just who you are... that is, if you're even well known? If you are, makes one wonder just how respected you are as a local trainer with all this bantering you do online.

I'd be embarrassed beyond belief to present myself as a professional, and then put into typed words my opinion that could possibly be used as slander or such if you were to ever name someone or hint of who they might be. Hell, I'd be embarrassed to even speak it to those who know any better!

:no: :no:


What I want to know is, why does everyone want to suck what fun is out of horses? Yes dressage is tedious and takes a lot of hard work, patients, hundreds of thousands of dollars, etc., but it's also a privledge that 1200lb+ animals let us tame them, and do all the crazy stuff we do to them.

There is absolutely no need for snarky comments. If you don't like seeing riders out there trying and having fun, don't go to the show, and most definantly do not scribe! If you aren't out there putting the hours in the saddle, and working your ass off to get places (even if it isn't near "perfect") I really don't see where anyone has room to insult, bash, and berate those out there putting themselves on 'the line', especially when they haven't produced any students or horses in YEARS!


DukesMom and Ryka and your posts were fabulous and my sentiments exactly. Thanks.

ise@ssl
May. 9, 2007, 03:28 PM
Well if the rules are changed as proposed - people won't be able to show GP unless they qualify with scores coming up the levels - the way it is in Europe.

DukesMom
May. 9, 2007, 04:21 PM
Oh, just answer ESG's question.....Not that I know of! I bought mine awhile ago and really love it. Paid full price too!:lol:

Ryka
May. 9, 2007, 04:29 PM
:lol: Dukes!! Now did you get the midnight or the black? I think it's just ravishing to have the midnight tophat, midnight tails, and a cream colored glove/saddle pad. Looks fab-u-lous! especially on chestnuts!

Looks like ESG is standing up to her apparent reputation of talking a big game, but not backing up what she says... ESG would you care to put anymore input into the conversation piece you've started?

DukesMom
May. 9, 2007, 04:36 PM
Mine is black but I have always wanted a midnight blue one!!!!!! I think it would go nicely on my dark bay as well.

STF
May. 9, 2007, 04:37 PM
What it looks like is a bunch of alias came out for a ESG bashing (or try to do what ever they can to bash her) because she gave her opinion on the rides at the show.
I told her Monday this was gona have a snowball effect and people would turn this against her - not hard to predict the alias that would come out.

Even then, its about the riders scores and their goals. Who gives a flying #%#$% how they did. THEY (the riders) are the ones who have to go home with those low scores and deal with it. So........ by all means, LET THEM deal with it and be proud (or not) of their scores!

The ESG bashing and snide remarks can stop now, its getting old and very boring!

DukesMom
May. 9, 2007, 04:50 PM
We are just making light of the situation and having a laugh!:lol:
I think it has already been let go. Her actions have spoken for her........ loud and clear.

Although, I do admire you for being a good friend and sticking up for her, that is all I am doing, sticking up for my friends she is degrading who are not here to defend themselves(Thank goodness for them).:yes:

Pommederue
May. 9, 2007, 05:01 PM
What it looks like is a bunch of alias came out for a ESG bashing (or try to do what ever they can to bash her) because she gave her opinion on the rides at the show........

They are not bashing ESG, just giving their opinions.

My opinion of ESG is that she's too opinionated and should lighten up:)

STF
May. 9, 2007, 05:17 PM
ESG can be (thou I love her) a bit opinionaited, but bless her heart....... :lol: She actually comes off much more "nasty" on the BB than she is in real life, so dont always think you know someone based on a internet BB!


I think we all have different goals and some riders are more serious than others. I never look down on anyone for trying in the arena anymore. I now realize how hard it is to balance life, training and showing as a married mother of 3, etc.

So Kuddos to all of you who are out there...... from scores the 40's to the 70's........ no matter what - have fun and enjoy!! :D

flshgordon
May. 9, 2007, 05:23 PM
Although, I do admire you for being a good friend and sticking up for her, that is all I am doing, sticking up for my friends she is degrading who are not here to defend themselves(Thank goodness for them).:yes:

What I don't understand here is that no one's names were mentioned so how do you know or not that she is talking about "your friends"? She might not even know the names of the people she's talking about, just making observations overall.

While the "Shadbelly" title isn't what I would have chosen :winkgrin: , she does have a point and she knows what she's talking about. I'd be happy to have her ride my horse any day.

Guess that's it for me on this subject that I think was unnecessarily blown out of proportion.

J-Lu
May. 9, 2007, 05:25 PM
What it looks like is a bunch of alias came out for a ESG bashing (or try to do what ever they can to bash her) because she gave her opinion on the rides at the show.
I told her Monday this was gona have a snowball effect and people would turn this against her - not hard to predict the alias that would come out.

Even then, its about the riders scores and their goals. Who gives a flying #%#$% how they did. THEY (the riders) are the ones who have to go home with those low scores and deal with it. So........ by all means, LET THEM deal with it and be proud (or not) of their scores!

The ESG bashing and snide remarks can stop now, its getting old and very boring!

ESG did not simply give her opinion, she made condescending remarks about specific classes of riders at a specific show that she volunteered to scribe at - all on a public forum. THAT'S TACKY. There are many ways she could have brought up her point without being so snarky (again, please note the thread name) or identifying the specific show. Of course her classless comments on a public board would snowball - what did she think would happen??? Of course people *especially those who rode at that show/volunteer for the GMO* would take her to task for being so condescending on a public board about what she saw as a scribe. What kind of reaction was she (or you) expecting? If she or you did not want snide comments, then she should have handled herself differently and titled this thread differently. Further, she could have EASILY backpedaled along the way and apologized for being condescending (which is not to say that she'd change her opinon-just her attitude)...but she didn't, and she could have addressed the other questions. This isn't ESG-bashing, this is, in my opinion, making her accountable for her remarks and for the statements she made while defending herself.
J.

SaddleFitterVA
May. 9, 2007, 05:38 PM
The USEF Scoring System along with Websters definition:

10 - Excellent Superior or very good of its kind
9 - Very Good
8 - Good conforming to a standard or "satisfactory":lol: and a long list of others that aren't applicable
7 - Fairly Good
6 - Satisfactory adequate
5 - Sufficient a: enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end
4 - Insuffienct
3 - Fairly Bad
2 - Bad
1 - Very Bad
0 - Not Performed

So, as a non-DQ, IMO, 5 is a good place to start.

When I took my little mare to her first dressage show for 1-1 and 1-3...because my other mare was lame...I knew that she was not really "ready" for first level, but it was a dressage show, what is the worst that happens when I "overface" my horse in first level? We get a poor score and DQs snark at you.

I was actually ok with my scores of 52.x and 54.x from tough judges who are known to not be generous.....I pulled her off of husband horse status about 6 weeks before the show.

I shall be testing out how much "correct" trumps "movement" because my cute little looks-like-a-cow-pony (courtesy of a railbird at a clinic) is going to continue to go to dressage shows...and hopefully we'll be competent at 2nd this fall.

DukesMom
May. 9, 2007, 09:04 PM
What I don't understand here is that no one's names were mentioned so how do you know or not that she is talking about "your friends"? She might not even know the names of the people she's talking about, just making observations overall.

There were only a few GP, I-1, I-2 rides and I know all of those ladies personally. Some are close friends and some I just know from the shows but we are all friends. ESG mentioned the GP rides, I know ALL of those girls well! So, yes flashgordon she IS indeed talking about my friends!

This is a small dressage community and I know for a fact that her comments are flying around this area and NOT by my mouth. How do you think I found out about this thread? I have not posted here much at all, and am way to busy for this crap, but I will defend myself and others involved! Since ESG is so easily identifiable we all know who she is, and boy do I feel bad for her. Professional suicide.......??????

On a side note: If you look at the national averages at the FEI levels you would see that they are just barely cracking 60%. So, no Texas is not as bad as some believe and scoring in the mid to high 60% is NOT easy. All the FEI scores at the show were mid 50%'s to low 60%. Most were high 50%'s and many of the horses were not warmbloods and a lot were amateur riders.

ESG since you are such a highly qualified professional in an area that you think is so bad, please be kind enough to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

Ryka
May. 9, 2007, 09:42 PM
Highly agreed with both J-Lu and Dukesmom... :yes:

Pommederue
May. 9, 2007, 10:56 PM
ESG can be (thou I love her) a bit opinionaited, but bless her heart....... She actually comes off much more "nasty" on the BB than she is in real life, so dont always think you know someone based on a internet BB!

I do not presume to "know" anyone here on this BB. In fact I hardly ever post, yet ESG's comment struck me the wrong way enough to actually put in my $.02. FWIW, I think her title/post was way out of line. Her list of "credentials" IMO do not qualify her to make such remarks about rider who paid good money and spent time, effort and energy to show their horses that day -- ready or not. In fact, I don't see Debbie McDonald here (who's credentials are a lot longer than ESG's) asking about sales on Shadbellys.

Yes, in Europe you have to earn the privilege of moving up the levels with scores but NOT here so nobody broke the golden rules.

In my barn there is a strict rule; NO ONE can put down a rider/horse at a show during a class. They are taught from the get go to respect other riders at all times and support their efforts. Now, if they want an 'opinion' of the quality of ride, I will give it to them. I will point out where I think they could improve, where they went wrong, where they lost points, etc -- I'm assuming the judge will as well. I will also point out that everyone has a bad day and perhaps that person is too.

No, I don't know ESG and perhaps she is really nice in person -- I don't know. But I truly believe that ESG owes an apology to the riders at that show who don't deserve her self-righteous snark fest.

STF
May. 9, 2007, 11:38 PM
Or we can all have a drink..... or two..... or three......... and just move on with life????
:)

Ryka
May. 10, 2007, 10:00 AM
What it looks like is a bunch of alias came out for a ESG bashing (or try to do what ever they can to bash her) because she gave her opinion on the rides at the show.
I told her Monday this was gona have a snowball effect and people would turn this against her - not hard to predict the alias that would come out.


How I am glad to see that true friends still back each other up. ESG said in previous posts, she KNOWS who some of these "aliases" are. I for one do not know ESG, and don't have to (and by this whole thread, probably wouldn't want to ever).

ESG got caught with her pants down, and got called on it... we aren't harassing or bashing her. She gave her opinion, we're entitled to ours. If she wants to clear the air on any of this she can log on and back up her words. If not, well that's her choice but what's here now makes her look like a snarky, bitchy, rail-bird preaching apparent falsehoods (as noted by one or two posters who say they know her). Not to mention if she's a supposedly 'well-known' trainer in Texas, she's bombing (not shooting) herself in the foot. It wouldn't surprise me if the show manager/secretary of the show she scribed for didn't have her back as a scribe or a volunteer. I can't say I'd much blame them either.

Dalfan
May. 10, 2007, 10:15 AM
You're right, she gave her opinion on SOME riders who perhaps shouldn't be showing at the level they are showing at. Her opinion. She certainly didn't say ALL the riders were lacking. As we all know (or should know), most people believe they rider better than they actually do.

Sometimes it's hard to keep the mouth zipped when you know a rider is certainly over-horsed in their riding skills and training.

Knew a lady that bought a confirmed 4th level / schooling PSG horse. She could barely get out of a walk circle with him without him bulging out or in. Watching her try to do all the "tricks" was painful/torturious. Even more painful was when she would ask "what'd ya think of my ride"?

You can usually tell if someone is just having a bad day versus holes in the riding/training.

ThreeFigs
May. 10, 2007, 10:51 AM
I think the ESG critics are a tad thin-skinned and need to get over it. Hey, I'm a Texan by birth and darn pround of it, but if I saw lousy riding at a Texas (or Colorado) show, I'd probably be as critical as ESG has been. It's got nothing to do with TEXAS riders so much as it has to do with riders overfacing themselves or their horses everywhere. This just happened to be at a Texas show, so most of the riders were from Texas. We have crappy riders flailing through inappropriate level tests EVERYWHERE. Sometimes, I've been one of them!

After watching some very good riding back East, I feel the need to wash my eyes out with soap after watching some of OUR local "talent". It's painful! So you can learn from these painful episodes, or you can insist that the Emperor's clothes are just lovely.

Ryka
May. 10, 2007, 11:40 AM
Or you can not scribe and not watch the show, and therefore you have no fuel to banter and bitch. :D

No one forced ESG to be a scribe, but she's turning off potential clients IMHO.

MyReality
May. 10, 2007, 11:58 AM
Now it makes me believe even more, that Texan dressage is downhill, when people make comments like, "if you don't want to watch, don't".

A competitor throw herself out there in a show or clinic, then sorry she is watched.

There is no such thing as, I can't ride that test, but spectators are obligated to keep it secret.

Hey, no need to get apologetic about a bad ride either.

But really one should do all the schooling at home or at schooling shows.

flshgordon
May. 10, 2007, 12:17 PM
Or you can not scribe and not watch the show, and therefore you have no fuel to banter and bitch. :D

No one forced ESG to be a scribe, but she's turning off potential clients IMHO.

ok this is getting downright ridiculous with or without ESG. So NOW no one who watches or scribes is allowed to have an opinion unless it's "All the rides were magnificent, or that 48 so and so got was just spectacular":confused:

I'm leaving the OP out of this....NO ONE should be allowed to tell anyone they aren't allowed to have an opinion on rides at a public show in a public facility. I'm sure that on any given day, someone might see part of my rides and go "wow, she should go back to the training barn" but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Ryka
May. 10, 2007, 12:22 PM
My whole point is, the tests might be international tests, but she's talking about a regional show. If everyone rode olympic caliber horses, and were olympic caliber riders everyone would be bitching that there's not enough amature type riders. Even the olympic caliber riders fumble at times.
If you want to CDI type rides, go to a CDI show.

I've lurked this board for years and never made a stink... this thread has just pushed my buttons. :sigh:

DukesMom
May. 10, 2007, 01:05 PM
Guide for Scribes: (USDF Hand Book)

Conversations Between Judge and Scribe
It is the judges responsibility to judge the test. It is not appropriate for the scribe to comment on the judge's decision, nor to question that decision. It is what the judge sees that matters, so if a judge does not see a mistake, don't comment. In addition, any comments (written or verbal) made by the judge while in the judge's box are strictly between the judge and the rider. Never carry these conversations outside of the judges box.

Watching The Test
Scribing takes concentration to accurately record the scores and comments. It is not possible for a scribe to watch the test in its entirety while recording the scores and comments.

I am not accusing anyone of anything just thought this would be good for everyone to read.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand both sides of the debate. I was there and saw what she saw, I was also on the other side of C so I have that perspective as well. What gets me most is in the way the topic was approached. How are we as dressage riders not supposed to be offended or upset? Especially when it is a local professional commenting on how bad a local show was. Scribing is a privilege and not a right and all this negative talk does is discourage people not encourage them. Saddest of all is that this is a very public BB and it wasn't the least bit difficult to know exactly who she is talking about. If you were so disappointed in the quality of riding try to be constructive and not destructive.

Happy riding!

And, as Robert Dover says "There are MANY ways to a 4!"

Liz
May. 10, 2007, 01:13 PM
My issue was never with the content of ESG's post...trainers overfacing horses. I did take issue with the way she delivered her message. Everyone has a right to an opinion but how you choose to deliver that message is up to you. You can be constructive and open a discussion or you can be snarkey and put people on the defensive. ESG chose the latter. It dosen't matter if she was right or wrong. This thread has become about people's right to make comments on others who show. The original post was about trainers or riders overfacing their horses at a show. Two different subjects.

As an aside.....if this has become a witch hunt about ESG and her "qualifications" ....then for any part in that I might have played I would like to apologize.

slc2
May. 10, 2007, 01:28 PM
well this certainly has become a vitriolic interchange.

trainers, in general, do not overface horses. a few do, but in general, no. horses may be acting immature at a show or have a goofy day, but in general, they aren't overfacing them.

at times, the older person goes in the ring, and while having knowledge and experience, may not be fit or may be having health problems that interfere with riding as elegantly as they used to. i think it's better to just let the judge handle the judging, in those cases. the person will get the right score from the judge, and will have comments and probably knows what they're doing wrong in the first place, anyway.

a friend competed while recovering from breast cancer - her rides were poor. we cheered at the end of every ride, amid the dirty looks from the ringside 'knowledgeables'.

at times, i feel what's in error is our eye, which evaluates faults incorrectly, and ascribes their origin incorrectly. for example, a lot of very nasty comments were made about a horse and rider at a linda zang seminar.

the girl was bouncing in the saddle.

'oh she can't ride at ALL' we heard murmored, all around us. in fact, everyone seemed very completely convinced that she couldn't ride at all.

instead, linda made a few adjustments to balance the horse more, and the picture suddenly changed dramatically. it wasn't that the girl was a poor rider at all, when the horse's balance was corrected, he relaxed his back, and she could sit very nicely, it turned out.

Ms zang explained, very very carefully, for those who would listen, that when a horse is not in balance he can be very hard to sit. this was a huge, powerful horse. when he was not quite in balance i don't think anyone could have sat him - certainly not any of the 'knowlegeables' in the audience.

too, i think we are forgetting what these regional shows are for. they are for education. the people participating, by and large, will never go to the olympics. they will never be famous, and they will never be prominent riders. they could stay at home, safely, and avoid being in the public eye - they go for one reason - to be judged by a knowledgeable judge. it is a part of their education.

showing is expensive, tiring, time consuming, and because of the ringside experts, humiliating. it is very easy to stay home, not be judged, and 'hoodwink' students into thinking one's an expert. showing is not necessary if one's wish is to deceive.

in fact, the trainer who wishes to really effectively deceive students about his skill will stay as far away from the show ring as possible.

why would a person do it? to improve.

and people - many people - do improve. and showing helps them to do so.

so please, when you see a rider 'who can't ride at all', be charitable, be kind, and try to remember - no one's perfect....even the observer.

it is not that one wishes people to be mute about other's mistakes, or not to 'improve their eye' for what is correct. it is the spirit in which it is done, and with what sort of class it is done.

fullmoon fever
May. 10, 2007, 03:00 PM
showing is expensive, tiring, time consuming, and because of the ringside experts, humiliating.

It's only humilitating if you let it be. You think any railbirds are going to rattle me? Nope. I am there to ride my horse, get a score and JUDGE'S comments and continue my training. I could give a crap what anyone on the rail has to say.

Teesmom
May. 10, 2007, 03:01 PM
BRAVO !!!! SLC2

Ryka
May. 10, 2007, 03:29 PM
SLC that's my whole feeling about it, esp your last few sentences. :yes:

slc2
May. 10, 2007, 03:57 PM
critiquing a ride - doing a good job, picking out what's relevant, and even more, knowing why it is occuring - is not so simple as it may seem. it is, in fact, a far more complex thing than judging a class and is something that people spend a lifetime learning.

rest assured - it is not so simple. when i started in dressage, for quite some time, i thought it was very easy.

i was wrong.

critiqueing a ride is a very, very difficult skill. most of the time, people try, but they aren't doing as good a job as they think. a good event for here would be to 'critique the critique'. i've done it a time or two - to very poor reviews - at least from the critiquer getting critiqued :D

if you take a deep breath and listen to how someone critiques their own rides, you can see how really difficult it is. it is actually extremely difficult to do, and is usually the job for a profesisonal trainer, as most people are so bad at it.

most people, in their critiques, what they lack, fundamentally, is balance. balance comes from experience.

for example, if i had been there, at that regional show in texas, i would have expected - regional level riding. these are not people going to the olympics. i expect them to make mistakes. i expect some to be out of their element. i expect some to be in the wrong class. at every show, some are in the wrong class. i expect horse and rider to be tense. i expect to see bouncing butts and tense shoulders. i expect to see horses perform substantially less well than at home. i expect to see older gals that are out of shape, tense beginners, converts from other riding sports...i expect that.

i'm not outraged or in tears when i see what i rightfully expect i will see.

and when i see these out of shape girls, or these tense riders, i don't think, 'oh! how awful! they should stay home!'

i think, 'good for you. get your butt out there and give it a try'. and to the people putting them down i feel sorry for them.

years of experience teach you that you have no business expecting a souffle with truffles and caviar when you go to Kentucky Fried chicken. having realistic expectations helps.

but the fact is, even at devon, even at the winter florida circuit, there are classes for people who compete at a lower level of ability. and in fact, even in the top cdi's in the USA and Europe, there are quite a few people, outside of the top 2-3 who are downright - SHALL I SAY IT???? average.

so how do you know a person's critique is off base?

when they review their own rides, they're either hysterically happy and it was 'perfect' or they're about to do themselves in and are saying 'i can't do anything, i suck, that sucked, my horse sucked'....etc.

balance comes from experience. one develops an ability to extend charity to other riders as one becomes more experienced. that is really all there is to it. those who love to critique others so easily - they lack experience. that's all.

i got extremely charitable to other riders after i tried to do a little more myself. once you've tried, and seen how hard it is, you tend to get a lot more tender hearted to other people who are trying.

and i am. i feel for people. i'm sitting there urging them on as i watch them ride. shows are for people to better themselves, they aren't for impressing other people. if they were for impressing others, they wouldn't have judges, and scores and comments and test sheets.

people tend to have the least ability to critique themselves...and that lack of balance carries over to critiquing others. they make mistakes in both places....often, excuses for self, and very harsh critique for every little detail seen in others.

what i like to see is the reverse. that a person diligently evaluates how they themselves ride, and works with a passion toward improvement in as many ways as possible...and shows nothing but support for others. people aren't always perfect and the little green monster pops out now and again - but that's a good goal to shoot for.

kelliope
May. 10, 2007, 05:05 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread because as a person who rides a sometimes difficult pony, I find the criticism of riders and/or horses who are having a bad day very disheartening. It is tough to get out there and show knowing people are criticizing you, especially the scribes. I once went to a show where I thought I recognized a scribe and was filled with dread that the person would be scribing my test. I just tried to put it out of my head and ride.

I try to let things slide off my back, but sometimes I do feel the sting of unkind words.

As usual, slc has hit the nail on the head with this:

shows are for people to better themselves, they aren't for impressing other people. if they were for impressing others, they wouldn't have judges, and scores and comments and test sheets.

And this:

what i like to see is the reverse. that a person diligently evaluates how they themselves ride, and works with a passion toward improvement in as many ways as possible...and shows nothing but support for others. people aren't always perfect and the little green monster pops out now and again - but that's a good goal to shoot for.

STF
May. 10, 2007, 06:21 PM
I dont understand..... if everyone is so confident in their riding and scores, then why battle it on a silly internet BB?
Scores speak for themself on how the judge feels about the ride. So why in the heck battle it here.
I see it as a waste of time.
Yes, ESG is my friend and she has the right to an opinion. Then it turned into a bash fest on ESG, which is fine. Id rather have someone flat out say what they are thinking instead of the other type that snicker and talk behind my back. That is why I like ESG.

So, again - who cares...... the riders are the ones who have to take home the scores and if someone takes a 1st place at Grand Prix with a 45%, then more power to them!!!

WHO CARES......

Aggie4Bar
May. 10, 2007, 06:35 PM
I think we should all join hands and sing Kumbaya. :D

STF
May. 10, 2007, 08:56 PM
Just dont forget the wine........ lots of it!

dutchmike
May. 10, 2007, 09:21 PM
I agree with ESG in a way but on the other hand if you only want really good riders in the dressage shows each show would last 30 minutes and there would be no more competitors. Who cares lets face it 90% of the people compete to have fun so let them have their fun. Maybe you look at life a bit lighter this way al you get is a heart attack. I had a student going PSG was she ready?. Not in my eyes however she had fun so what and still in the 60ies so although I told her not to go she now wants to work harder and do better next show

ise@ssl
May. 11, 2007, 09:21 AM
Well I don't think it's entertaining to watch upper level rides that are just plain horrible and more often than not tormenting for the horses. Having to qualify to move up the levels beyond the starter levels - i.e. Training/First doesn't hurt the sport - it improves it. And how is it FUN for the riders to be attempting to ride movements when they just can't?? It certainly isn't FUN for the horses involved.

Aggie4Bar
May. 11, 2007, 09:52 AM
Well I don't think it's entertaining to watch upper level rides that are just plain horrible and more often than not tormenting for the horses. Having to qualify to move up the levels beyond the starter levels - i.e. Training/First doesn't hurt the sport - it improves it. And how is it FUN for the riders to be attempting to ride movements when they just can't?? It certainly isn't FUN for the horses involved.Of that I would agree. The worst upper level rides I ever watched were two by the a pro a few years ago. I would never have noticed or remembered him had the first ride not been so bad. Tight, wadded-up, pissy horses. About a third of the way through an I-2 test, the second of his horses began kicking out and finally stopped dead in the midst of a pirouette to let fly with some big, double-barrelled bucks in protest. Though neither myself nor the friend watching the tests with me ride at those levels, the conversation between us was, "Why does he even bother?" There may have been something else going on, but when you see two such poor performances from the same rider... that suggests something else. :no:

dutchmike
May. 11, 2007, 09:58 AM
Well I don't think it's entertaining to watch upper level rides that are just plain horrible and more often than not tormenting for the horses. Having to qualify to move up the levels beyond the starter levels - i.e. Training/First doesn't hurt the sport - it improves it. And how is it FUN for the riders to be attempting to ride movements when they just can't?? It certainly isn't FUN for the horses involved.


Yes it aint a perfect world. I don't think it is entertaining to watch any dressage show sofar in Texas the atmosphere is worse then on a cemetary. Most of these people here should lighten up a bit. If you dressage for fun then enjoy it and stop moaning if you are part of the 1% that wants to turn pro then work hard at it and stop bashing other riders like it is the norm over here. There is plenty I disagree with that I see but unless it is in my power to change ,why would I get a stroke over it.

ise@ssl
May. 11, 2007, 10:14 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why riding correctly somehow eliminates it being enjoyable. This is a sport and competitions are part of that sport. If it's just a past time for people who just show up to ride regardless of whether it's correct or not - they can just go to schooling shows. Recognized shows should and I believe will start to require qualifying scores.

Why should it be different than any other sport. Should anyone that shows up to play baseball or football or golf be allowed to play even if they are lousy?

And as far as turning pro - many riders continue to ride as Amateurs all the way to GP - so that has no bearing on the concept of qualifying.

slc2
May. 11, 2007, 10:19 AM
if that were the case, the equivalent here, would be to bar people from playing in neighborhood pickup b-ball games because they 'aren't good enough'.

if you're bully enough to do so, have at it.

the idea that everyone must perform up to someone's opinion of how well they should perform, is not institutionalized in any regulations at this point in time, in America. so, like many topics that involve being affronted over other people's incompetence, it is somewhat of a moot point.

i prefer to remain more affronted over my own incompetence, and to work on that. a good suggestions for others whose blood is boiling over how badly other people ride.

Ja Da Dee
May. 11, 2007, 11:33 AM
Should anyone that shows up to play baseball or football or golf be allowed to play even if they are lousy?

um... anyone can play baseball, football or golf even if they are lousy.

My husband played in a golf tournament last summer, and he is a horrible golfer. He does have fun knocking the ball around though, and enjoys the company on the links. He just calculates if it's a good round or bad based on the number of golfballs he looses, not the number of strokes he took.

I don't think his appearance on the links offended anyone.

slc2
May. 11, 2007, 12:02 PM
perhaps it did, but there is probably a bulletin board for people who are offended by how others golf.:D

years ago, i began fishing. my boyfriend provided extensive land based instruction for how to cast, and emphasized how critical it was that i cast straight.

i asked why. he explained that the pier was crowded, and that if i did not cast straight, i could foul someone else's line, or even put a hook in someone. but that even if i didn't foul someone else's line, it made people nervous, and they couldn't concentrate on their own fishing. they would constantly be on edge thinking i was about to foul their line or put a hook in someone.

all during this talk he was casting - over and over and over, beautiful straight casts. i did my best to emulate him.

then he hooked a pigeon.

since while riding, the riders are not casting, ,and Little Cleo's are not flying about directed at your hair, lip or ear, how someone else rides should not make you tense.

I remembered that for a strange reason.

I have been uncomfortable all morning. I did not know why.

I borrowed my boyfriend's car yesterday.

And, I just removed a Little Cleo, partially lodged in the upholstery of my chair, and partially lodged in my ***.

Carry on.

ise@ssl
May. 11, 2007, 12:20 PM
Come one - stop the fruit salad. It's apples and oranges. Your husband is playing in competitive tournaments - the top ones do require people to qualify.

FEI competition should be for riders (pro or ami) who have qualified. Moving up from one level to another should also require a minimum # of scores at a specified score level. Just deciding ..."o.k. I did 2nd level - all four tests - now I move to third regardless of the scores" - doesn't make any sense to me.

slc2
May. 11, 2007, 12:33 PM
exactly. except there is no qualifying rule in the USA that the riders you folks criticize are breaking.

and he's not my husband, and he's not fishing in a tournament, and they don't place tournaments based on how you cast, but what you catch.



it is a fundamental difference in personality, character and goals. some people always look at others and want to criticize their incompetence. others want to improve themselves, and focus on that.

and if one is apples and the other oranges, you can't make an apple into an orange. no matter how hard you try.

Cowgirl
May. 11, 2007, 02:42 PM
Riding an upper level test is extremely difficult. Extremely!

Becoming a good show rider is difficult. Extremely!

Chris Hickey says on his Dressage Dimensions test riding tape that you can only expect to get 80 percent in a test of what you get in the warmup (or at home). If that is true than a rider who is capable of riding a test for a 65 can expect to get 52 at a show.

I know that when I was showing FEI, I performed WAY better at home than I ever did at a show. I was choked by nerves.

It is easier to criticize and expect more of what you see when you aren't the one out there doing it.

What bothers me at shows is the incorrect riding that gets rewarded. That happens alot too. If the riding is incorrect and gets slammed, then justice is done and you don't need to pile on it. Apparently, the riding did get judged accordingly, so I don't understand the need for this thread.

But the bigger problem is that if the training at home is incorrect and incorrectly prepares people for shows, how is that going to get resolved? Bad scores and talking about it won't do it. Even creating a system of qualifying to compete at a level won't do it. The only thing, in my mind, that can help fix the problem (which is national, IMO, and not confined to Texas) is to somehow provide regular access to correct training. If the USDF intends on instituting a qualifying system without backing it up with correct training, the whole thing will fail. In places like Texas and here in Colorado, it's difficult to get clinicians to come here because they lose a day of business on each end of the travel. There is no national center here where we can send our trainers for courses. It's a difficult and expensive problem.

When they change the system to a qualifying system you are likely not going to see better riding because the training system has not changed. What you are going to see is the lower levels all clogged up and very few rides at the top with people who qualified based on old scores.

Dressage Art
May. 11, 2007, 02:46 PM
One time during my lesson my trainer told me that "They would love you in Texas" --- I had no idea what she was talking about, but after reading this thread, I have a bit of a clue now. Seems that Texans are trying hard making a name for themselves.

I don't care to watch any level with 40-50% scores, but I don't expect everybody to score 70%+ either. There is only one blue ribbon per class. Only one would end up getting it. I'm yet to see a class full of 70%+ scores.

The USDF qualifying scores are more realistic mark. I feel happy with anything above those. Some people think that they are too high and yet I saw some people cry from disappointment when they get scores like this as well. To each their own.

Training Level (Test 4) pro: 68% AA: 63%
First Level (Test 4) pro: 66% AA: 62%
Second Level (Test 4) pro: 64% AA: 61%
Third Level (Test 3) pro: 62% AA: 60%
Fourth Level (Test 3) pro: 62% AA: 60%
FEI Junior Rider (Team Test) 60%
FEI Young Rider (Team Test) 60%
Prix St. Georges 60%
Intermediate I 60%
Intermediate II 60%
Grand Prix 60%

STF
May. 11, 2007, 03:00 PM
You have to remember each rider/horse pair has their own goals, which may not be the goals of everyone watching them, so........
AGAIN, I say...... for the 10th time.
TO EACH THEIR OWN.....

I think a lot of ESG grip was that a lot of the horses were very stiff and some even looked lame while being ridden. Since we are mostly all lovers of the sport, its hard to see a horse preform when it looks so uncomfortable.
I was not there, I cant say who, what horse, etc - Im just going by a few show reports I got from those who were there.

Again, it each their own and if it makes them happy, then fine!!

Were the hell is the wine, when we really need it???

Adamantane
May. 16, 2007, 10:50 AM
While Charles de Kunffy hasn't shown a lot, either, lately. I don't see anyone denigrating his judgment or eye.:lol: But that whole avenue of argument is irrelevant anyway, even if ESG had never so much as ridden on a horse. It suggests that the only people capable of seeing whether the emperor is wearing clothes are the members of the imperial family. We all know how that one ended up. :D

And the thread wasn't about Texas, although paradoxically in view of way some took it, I think ESG actually was trying to appeal to the pride of place most native (and adopted) Texans feel.

One thing mostly missing from the thread -- to be sure among their other remarks, slc2 and cowgirl, for example, did seek to comment -- was the main thing it probably was intended to provoke: discussion of why people might show at a higher level than they appear to be able consistently to ride (whatever their discipline) and in view of that, what might be done to address it in the best interests of the riders, judges, and horses.

We all have seen other threads decrying the same thing in other places and with other disciplines. One common conclusion is that it appears to parallel the increase in numbers of people who have gotten interested.

Too bad the point of the thread got lost in the melee.:yes:

SGray
May. 22, 2007, 01:39 PM
the scores are now posted

slc2
May. 22, 2007, 01:57 PM
coh rule: it's ok for lower level riders to show at a level they're not prepared yet for, but it's very, very, very very bad for anyone else to do so.

there's a dichotomy there, a failure of logic.

WHY is it ok. something other than 'it's not a big deal'?

Hazelnut
May. 22, 2007, 03:50 PM
It is a breech of confidentiality to scribe then post on a public forum what tests you scribed for and what you thought of certain rides. I would hope that the person would not be invited back to scribe as it would indicate that show management is not seeking quality.

A person will show you who they are, believe them...

SGray
May. 22, 2007, 04:02 PM
fei scores were all above 50% so all were at least sufficient

slc2
May. 22, 2007, 04:07 PM
kind of makes me think i can leave the matter of judging...to the judges.

flshgordon
May. 22, 2007, 04:55 PM
fei scores were all above 50% so all were at least sufficient

Well that (50%) wouldn't be what I would shoot for but to each their own...

SGray
May. 22, 2007, 05:24 PM
not satisfactory - but from the original post I was thinking that I'd see the FEI scores dipping down into insufficient

Dressage-ryder
May. 22, 2007, 05:25 PM
50% is not good. If that is an ongoing score than yes, time to rethink the level you are showing.

To the OP, I think you are brave for posting your thoughts and what you saw. More people should. The riding wont get better if we all pat each other on the back for bad tests/riding.

Aggie4Bar
May. 22, 2007, 05:46 PM
50% is not good. If that is an ongoing score than yes, time to rethink the level you are showing.Well, one would hope.

Reading some of these threads, I'm starting to think riding isn't much different from being in school. Some people could take exams and be happy to merely pass with a C (satisfactory). Others - nerds like myself :D - always strove for that 100% and were never happy with less than an A+ (until college, when I accepted certain C's with an ecstatic happy dance, delighted to survived the stupid class :p). Maybe some riders are happy to just get out in the ring and do the test regardless of how well it can be done.

SGray
May. 22, 2007, 05:51 PM
as to the pros - for all I know the horse's owner may be insisting on the entry at that level

Adamantane
May. 22, 2007, 06:24 PM
it is a fundamental difference in personality, character and goals. some people always look at others and want to criticize their incompetence. others want to improve themselves, and focus on that.

and if one is apples and the other oranges, you can't make an apple into an orange. no matter how hard you try.


slc2, you didn't mention the bitter lemons: people who aren't much focused on others or on self-improvement per se, but concentrate on bashing their own 'incompetence' much more harshly to themselves than the most vacuous petty railbird ever might have hoped to.

This group might not fit into this particular situation as neatly as the other two, but it shouldn't go by the wayside.

Ridingwise probably nowadays I myself fall more into that bin.

Speaking from personal experience, in the grip of this, it often seems that it really doesn't matter to me all the many things I can do now that I couldn't at all not so long ago, and how when faced with a surprise along the way I usually can muddle through.

What only seems to matter is other things which I can picture in my mind being done excellently, but which I do very poorly and can't seem reliably to fix on any but a glacial timescale.:(

But not just those, sometimes even on the very first attempt. :yes:

Think it sometimes drives my trainer nuts, though I usually can successfully suspend self-critical harsh judgment during a lesson for at least ten minutes before it begins to derail anything. (Ten minutes is pretty good.:lol:)

I think this is how recovering perfectionists who thought they had that trap licked may backslide into hypercritical self-bashing again. There probably is no more treacherous path than spending time trying to learn new things that are grounded in the very least of one's abilities. No sweeping ofv glaring gaps under the rug, no philosophical self-soothing, no reminding onesself of the essential transience and triviality of ordinal rankings, however exciting those contests might be.

Just "this is how it should be done" vs. "I really suck at it!":(

Bringing it back to the core topic of ESG's thread, I have to say that while I, too, agree some of the competitors better might have chosen a less ambitious forum until their skills were more honed, I really admire anyone who says, in effect, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." (The only authentic regrets I have in my life are from times when I failed to do that.)

I am absolutely certain that virtually nowhere else in the world would people have the sheer chutzpah to show up for a competition knowing they were in way over their heads and still brazen it out, just to say they had finished what they started and had given it their best shot. No worrying about what might people think or whether such an approach is 'what one does' or not. Hell, it might have been brutal, but probably it also was very educational.:yes:

I'm willing to bet her the price of a lesson that in this one narrow context, anyway, even our OP will agree.:D

Adamantane
May. 22, 2007, 06:27 PM
Well, one would hope.

Reading some of these threads, I'm starting to think riding isn't much different from being in school. Some people could take exams and be happy to merely pass with a C (satisfactory). Others - nerds like myself :D - always strove for that 100% and were never happy with less than an A+ (until college, when I accepted certain C's with an ecstatic happy dance, delighted to survived the stupid class :p). Maybe some riders are happy to just get out in the ring and do the test regardless of how well it can be done.

Yes, yes.:yes: If I hadn't been distracted halfway through by making dinner and letting a young and very demanding Corgi run around and finally go outside, I might have seen this before I posted just now and written it differently!

ESG
May. 22, 2007, 07:07 PM
Sweet Jesus in a miniskirt - this is the Hydra of all threads. Won't this sucker ever die?!?!? :eek:

And Adamantane, I think you're wrong. I've watched enough riders from other parts of the world who rode just as poorly at just as high a level (or, nearly so - 4th on up), that makes me think that you'll have to pay for that lesson, after all. :p

ESG
May. 22, 2007, 07:10 PM
fei scores were all above 50% so all were at least sufficient

Not exactly. The FEI tests all have two judges, and both scores are averaged to get the final placings. On a few of those 50% final scores, one of the scores was below 50%.

ESG
May. 22, 2007, 07:15 PM
It is a breech of confidentiality to scribe then post on a public forum what tests you scribed for and what you thought of certain rides. I would hope that the person would not be invited back to scribe as it would indicate that show management is not seeking quality.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Scores are public - they're posted on the USDF website for all recognized competitions, which this was. This isn't exactly lawer-client confidentiality here - this is a horse show, to which the general public is invited. Get a grip.

And, scribe or not, everyone's allowed an opinion. I expressed mine. Others disagreed, some agreed with me. That's what these boards are for. What's the problem? :confused:


A person will show you who they are, believe them...

Absolutely right. And you've shown who you are, and I've shown who I am. Hhmmmm............is that anything like "I'll show you mine, if you show me yours"? ROFLMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ryka
May. 22, 2007, 09:59 PM
ESG, you have still yet to grace us with proof of your accomplishments and scores, etc. One would think a self proclaiming professional wouldn't have any issues backing up their stories with set-in-stone proof, hmm?

For the sake of competitors riding in your regional shows, I do hope show management passes you over for volunteer work, especially after this entire tiraid. :yes:

Adamantane
May. 22, 2007, 10:29 PM
ESG, you have still yet to grace us with proof of your accomplishments and scores, etc. One would think a self proclaiming professional wouldn't have any issues backing up their stories with set-in-stone proof, hmm?

For the sake of competitors riding in your regional shows, I do hope show management passes you over for volunteer work, especially after this entire tiraid. :yes:

Competent volunteers are always in short supply, and volunteers who who rely on their own eyes and good sense are more reliable than the rest.

While ESG may be telling her story and sticking to it per my last comment -- probably we will resolve this surprising hiccup some other day:yes: -- the whole issue of using an observer's current competition scores is wholly irrelevant as the criterion for the reliability of the observer's eyes and judgment.

Thought we pretty well closed that particular distractor out maybe a dozen posts ago.

ESG
May. 22, 2007, 11:29 PM
ESG, you have still yet to grace us with proof of your accomplishments and scores, etc. One would think a self proclaiming professional wouldn't have any issues backing up their stories with set-in-stone proof, hmm?

Do be a little more clear when you ask questions, dear; I have no idea what you're asking. "Set-in-stone proof" of what, exactly? That I have eyes? That I have an opinion? I should have thought that both would have been obvious. :p


For the sake of competitors riding in your regional shows, I do hope show management passes you over for volunteer work, especially after this entire tiraid. :yes:

Sorry - not much chance of your hopes being realized. The show management were the ones who called (and e-mailed, repeatedly), asking me to work. :D

Oh, and I believe the word you were looking for is "tirade". :cool:

Dalfan
May. 22, 2007, 11:43 PM
Do be a little more clear when you ask questions, dear; I have no idea what you're asking. "Set-in-stone proof" of what, exactly?

Well, of course she is asking for PROOF positive that you can ride at "X" level, that have trained up to "X" level. All that is required is every score of every ride in every show that you've attended. Any and all still pics that you have of your riding, and any videos of the same. Only by seeing all this can we determine if you have the right to an opinion, if you can voice those opinions and if your opinion is then valid. :)

ESG
May. 22, 2007, 11:49 PM
Ooohhh - is that all! :lol:

And then, assuming that I would attempt something like that, I'd be accused of forging/PhotoShopping and otherwise counterfieting/obfuscating "the truth".

Yeah, sounds like a great way to spend some time. :D

J-Lu
May. 23, 2007, 12:03 AM
Everyone does have the right to their opinion. And, of course, everyone *should* pony up to their claims by providing scores-not all scores, just answering the question at hand.

I suspect that ESG will have plenty of opportunity to discuss her opinion to the riders in our area of TX. I'm heartened to see that she acknowledges that her comments are public...
J.

Dalfan
May. 23, 2007, 12:07 AM
Everyone does have the right to their opinion. And, of course, everyone *should* pony up to their claims by providing scores-not all scores, just answering the question at hand.

Or perhaps we should all submit pics/vids of our riding and get consensus approval of what level we are allowed to critique. That should go over well.

Hey, I have a picky up. Does that mean I'm ok for critiqueing a w/t test?

J-Lu
May. 23, 2007, 12:22 AM
Or perhaps we should all submit pics/vids of our riding and get consensus approval of what level we are allowed to critique. That should go over well.

Hey, I have a picky up. Does that mean I'm ok for critiqueing a w/t test?

You must understand that you miss the point.

Ryka
May. 23, 2007, 01:04 AM
ESG I'm sure every FEI rider you insulted will protest your scribing their tests in the future. Who can blame them?

You must not have any proof to back-up your statements of successful students, horses, your own rides, etc. Fine by me, but don't gloat bullshit when it's obvious people know just exactly who you are, and that your words are exactly that, bullshit. :rolleyes:

If you are as talented as you say you are, do you have any students/horses currently competing? Are you yourself competing? These are questions I'd ask any so called professional when interviewing to potentially train with them, or put my horses in training with them. If they gave the run around, I'd pass them up. Not worth wasting time over someone who talks a big game, but cannot or will not produce any evidence to back it all up with.

Yawn. :no:

Sabine
May. 23, 2007, 01:57 AM
Ryka- it's not about ESG. She reported what she saw. She has the right to do that. She reported on the public score awarded. She has the right to do that if she chooses to. If you show in a triple rated show- you have to be ready to have your scores across mags and internet and scoreboards...live with it..that's the truth. If your scores are 50 or lower you will/might get some static...that's the way the world works...you have to realize this is not like playing bingo with your neighbors anymore- this is a sport where some invest in big time horses and spend a lot of $$- it's been made public. Live with it- and get the idea of training 2 levels above what you are showing- and get a 60 at least (i'd say 65) to consider moving up!!! :) :)

Ryka
May. 23, 2007, 02:13 AM
Sabine I agree with your very last sentence. However, ESG's "opinions" might not be in "breech of confidentiality" legally, but they are defiantly unethical and immoral. I'm sorry but Houston, TX. it seems is NOT Europe, Florida, California, etc. like I said before if you want to watch perfection go to CDIs/WC/WEG/Olympics, etc. even there I'm sure you'll see some flub-ups.

Hazelnut
May. 23, 2007, 06:43 AM
Sabine I agree with your very last sentence. However, ESG's "opinions" might not be in "breech of confidentiality" legally, but they are defiantly unethical and immoral. I'm sorry but Houston, TX. it seems is NOT Europe, Florida, California, etc. like I said before if you want to watch perfection go to CDIs/WC/WEG/Olympics, etc. even there I'm sure you'll see some flub-ups.

Agree, not a "legal" breech of confidentiality, but the scribe is privvy to the scores and comments of the judge which is between the judge and competitor.

As a showmanager it would be prudent to avoid using scribes who share their views as a scribe on a public forum.

The OP's comments would be better taken without identifying a show, tests, riders, or that he/she scribed.

Dalfan
May. 23, 2007, 07:13 AM
If you are as talented as you say you are, do you have any students/horses currently competing? Are you yourself competing? These are questions I'd ask any so called professional when interviewing to potentially train with them, or put my horses in training with them. If they gave the run around, I'd pass them up. Not worth wasting time over someone who talks a big game, but cannot or will not produce any evidence to back it all up with.

I didn't realize you were looking to retain ESG for her services. So if she doesn't have students at the moment, or is competing at the moment, she can't voice her opinion on some abysmal FEI rides at a show?


I'm sure you'll see some flub-ups.

I don't think she was talking about mistakes in a test, but holes in the training of horse/rider.

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 09:11 AM
you all are sitting around ragging on ESG for doing exactly what 99% of the posts here are about : ragging on how other people ride, and what other people do. try not to be surprised. it's what most of the posts here are about.

flshgordon
May. 23, 2007, 10:24 AM
ESG, you have still yet to grace us with proof of your accomplishments and scores, etc. One would think a self proclaiming professional wouldn't have any issues backing up their stories with set-in-stone proof, hmm?

What I don't get is HOW ON EARTH is this relevant? Why is someone's show record of concern to you because they voiced an opinion? And most of all, why would anyone provide to some nameless face on a BB their credentials?

I wouldn't give you what you want either.

Back to the real topic at hand......

STF
May. 23, 2007, 10:35 AM
The results are in. I think the judges score tells you what they thought of the rides. Go to HDS Sping Classic I & II:
http://www.houstondressagesociety.org/announcements.htm
I dont understand people. Why come debate yourself here. The scores tell the story. Who cares what other people think. Its a public watched sport and everyone is going to have opinions. If they dont like what you do, give them "the bird."
Life goes one and scores change, every ride down the centerline is different. Its a fact of life!
Move on......
;)

I once scored a 53% at PSG at a schooling show (my first time at PSG). I had a little local girl slam the hell out of me and try to embarrass me for the score. She was very nasty about it. Did it bother me? No. I laughed about it. Why, cuz I was happy just to remember the freakin test! :lol:

Ryka
May. 23, 2007, 10:57 AM
What I don't get is HOW ON EARTH is this relevant? Why is someone's show record of concern to you because they voiced an opinion? And most of all, why would anyone provide to some nameless face on a BB their credentials?

I wouldn't give you what you want either.

Back to the real topic at hand......

Because she boasted that she was very accomplished, I'd like to know what they are... if she's such the professional and flaunts she's got all these winning students/horses/etc. there shouldn't be a problem with backing up her words. Unless she's lying.

exvet
May. 23, 2007, 11:20 AM
I decided to go back and view the first post by the OP and went and looked at the scores. It certainly would appear that there is no need for her to list her accomplishments or credentials in order to prove the validity of her statements or opinions. If I were to compare what I viewed via the link to what we see around here on a regular basis at our recognized shows I would have to say that the only difference is - wow - quite a few "braver" souls in ESGs area than around here. The score spread is similar to what we see here with the exception of a couple who do usually score a little higher but our FEI classes are usually fielded with 2-4 people and that's a big class. The only exception would be the few times our area has hosted the regional championships in regards to class size. While I can kind of understand some of those who are aghast that a scribe is posting her views regarding a series of classes she observed while working as a scribe, in all honesty, how different would it have been if she simply stated that she viewed/observed them as a spectator or fellow competitor? I didn't see where she repeated anything that a judge stated verbatim or pointed a finger at one specific individual or horse. I regularly look at scores published in the COTH for the various dressage shows around the country. I have to admit that if I had seen this in the hard copy edition of the COTH, I probably would have wondered something along the lines of the OP's opening statements and I'm sorry I really don't have to post, possess or prove any credentials to come to that conclusion. It's the beginning of the show season for many, the bottom line is that we all are working to improve ourselves, our riding and our mounts so that we don't regularly fall victim to such thoughts - but, obviously it was a position that each rider who elected to show, did so of their own accord. Hopefully the judges' comments were helpful enough to give guidance in what areas require more focus for each/any rider at the show regardless of score.

CS training & Sales
May. 23, 2007, 11:22 AM
I've followed this thread and can't for the life of me understand why the posters riding, showing and training background is even relevent.

She was a SCRIBE, not a judge in this situation, am I wrong?

I don't think someone need to be qualified, or even that experienced to see when someone is riding poorly or over their head.

And she certainly has the right to voice what she saw on this BB and to make comment on the rides she saw regardless of her background.

I have yet to see anyone else posting their experience level along with their opinion of the poster, and they may or may not have been at this show to witness the tests, but also have the right to their opinion.

Scores are made public, and MY opinion is that they speak for themsleves along with proving how CORRECT the poster was in commenting on them in the first place.

Perhaps she may have chosen a different tone in her original post, and left out personal specifics, but she was dead on about the poor level of the tests.

Perhaps these riders will drop down a level or two before putting their HORSES through what I see as BAD SCHOOLING.

That's my opinion:yes:

STF
May. 23, 2007, 11:34 AM
Because she boasted that she was very accomplished, I'd like to know what they are... if she's such the professional and flaunts she's got all these winning students/horses/etc. there shouldn't be a problem with backing up her words. Unless she's lying.

Its obvious you have a problem with ESG, we can all see that. ;) But the post is about the show. Go open another thread if your trying to slam ESG or try to humilate her, etc. :lol:

STF
May. 23, 2007, 11:40 AM
I know ESG issues and why she was upset. These were the "professionals" getting the scores and that is why she was flabergasted. It was not seeing a AA or a newbie come out at that level and ride, it was "seasoned pro's" who she was talking about.
But as I told her, it could have been a new horse, a horse coming back with an injury, a rider coming back after time off, etc. There are LOTS of resaons, etc.
I dont judge people anymore. Im past that part of my life. If they are out there trying, no matter is a hunt cap or a derby, then good for them. If they score a 40 and remember their tests, even better!! :lol:
Each to thier own!
Now someone get some wine, cheese and crackers out!! And dont forget to take the Shadbelly to the cleaners for the next show coming up! :lol:

Ryka
May. 23, 2007, 11:41 AM
I have no issues with ESG, and do not know ESG other than what she's posted here.

I do however have an issue with someone (anyone) flaunting supposed scores and accomplishments, won't back them up, and then dares to put down her fellow riders and professionals that she will most likely see around town or at shows, and she's not even showing the levels and it looks like by others account hasn't showed them.

STF
May. 23, 2007, 11:45 AM
Sweetie, nobody cares..... thats the point. Its a internet BB. If you did not have issues with ESG then you would not keep asking and poking about it.

ESG knows I did not agree with her posting this here. But, she is a grown woman. I told her this was a nightmare once she posted it. But........ its not worth getting all upset over.

Read my last post before this one!

Time to move on...

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 11:48 AM
Perhaps.

But quite often, I think the attitude here is that at training level (or the level of the poster) it is perfectly fine for someone to ride when they aren't really prepared for the level, and to collect whatever score they collect, but anyone who rides at a higher level than the speaker, what the h*** were they thinkin, how DARE they hang their fanny out in public like that'!

It'sa huge double standard. And institutionalized here - don't try to argue against it - you'll get smacked down. You're being a snob or too rigid - 'what's the big deal', that is, unless that person rides at a level higher than you!

First of all - do you REALLY expect people to score that high all the time? Get real. You aren't at Devon - even at Devon, the low FEI score was about 52%, people! This is a regular local show - cut some people some slack. They're learning.

If you really expect them to do that well, you need to retool your expectations. In 40 years of watching dressage shows, I have NEVER seen a whole class full of perfect riders at any level! In ANY class, you always have 1-2 really strong people, a couple tagging after, and 'the rest of us'. THAT'S LIFE. You can ALWAYS look at ANY dressage class and decide either to moan about how terrible it is or enjoy the good rides.

or you can add a little sensibility and watch with sympathy and understanding that this stuff is hard! Everyone's got their own little olympics to do. Let them try.

Secondly, perhaps their faults aren't quite as bad as you think. Perhaps you're just looking at the unfortunate 'bastard who rides higher level than me' with a little too fine grained of a glass.

Or perhaps, it don't ALL come from the fact that they're clueless morons who can't ride their way out of a paper bag or are arrogant wannabe's just waiting for a chance to flop around in public in a long coat.

Experts constantly tell us that any performance at a show is going to be no better than 80% of what they do at home, and likely to be lower than that. Maybe they're nervous or the horse is stronger than at home. Of course, if YOU had that problem, you'd be screaming, and everyone here would be saying AWWWW Poor thing!

Third, LET THE JUDGE TAKE CARE OF IT. The judges, all bb opinions to the contrary, DO know their ***** from a hole in the ground. It's clear from this little tale, the judges CAN take care of it.

Fourth, please don't gloat too hard that some people got 50% at this texas show. At every show, peopleALWAYS get low scores. They DO go in the wrong class, they DO have a hard ride, they may just be sick that day or their horse reacting differently and they can't figure out what to do. How the hay do you think they're ever going to learn anything, if they don't just do it? That's how you learn. By doing. By screwing up. By participating.

In dressage, you DO get a medal 'just for showing the **** up'. You do. That's how you learn. How ELSE do you think anyone learns anything?

ThreeFigs
May. 23, 2007, 12:10 PM
ESG's resume' has nothing to do with whether or not her opinion is valid. I haven't shown above 2nd yet, but I can tell the difference between a good upper level test and a bad one.

Would the fact that I have not yet ridden an FEI test make my observations any less valid? It's fairly easy to spot a true 3rd level horse & rider floundering through an FEI test that they're not ready for.

And, IMHO, the only time a scribe violates the "sanctity" of the position is when he/she tries to tell the judge his/her business. The judge's booth is no place for spreading the local gossip, or slamming a competitor in the judge's presence. Otherwise, scribes are entitled to their opinions. I've been a scribe at shows and often get asked by friends, "So, how were the rides you saw today?" I'll tell 'em. I was not sequestered for the duration of the show!!

Scribes, therefore, have nothing to do with the scores the judge gives. They are simply scribes, recording the scores and comments. Thus, riders have no grounds to protest the presence of a particular scribe. If the scribe should try to influence the judge's marks, the judge is entitled to tell that scribe to "zip it", or ask for another scribe, if one is available. I've judged little local schooling shows and have had scribes try to tell me how to score a particular horse & rider. Did not go over well with me!

By the way, based on ESG's previous postings, observations, and opinions, I'd ride or clinic with her anytime. If she were closer...

inca
May. 23, 2007, 12:15 PM
I have stayed out of this until now. But, I have to say, I am trying to decide whether to debut my horse at 2nd level test 4. I have ridden the test for my trainer and she says we are ready. But, I KNOW riding the test at a SHOW is completely different than practicing it. I WILL have show nerves, my horse may have a bad day, etc., etc. There are no second chances at a show - you have one moment to get everything right. So, we may end up with a 52%. Or maybe even worse if it's a really bad day - LOL.

And the thought of that score being publicized for the world to critique, gives me pause. Honestly, the fact that this mare is even capable of doing this level of work after suffering a severed superficial digital flexor tendon and an 80% tear of her deep digital flexor tendon is an actual miracle. But, people reading the scores or watching our test won't know that and will find it necessary to flame me if our performance is less than stellar. You know, it's just not anyone's place to comment on anyone else's show performance. No one but that rider has ANY IDEA what all has led up to and caused that particular day's performance. As STF said, each trip down the centerline is different.

Too bad people don't either keep their mouth shut or find something encouraging to say. You don't have to say "great ride" if it truly stunk. But you can say something like "Tough day, we have all been there. Hopefully things will go better next time."

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 12:31 PM
It's very typical to start getting low scores once you get out of the 'training level' puddle, too. You don't break into a new level without a few aches and pains.

The internet gossips are no different than the gatherings around the wash tubs and the pump in the center of the village. The word travels faster and is a little farther spread, but not by so much. What critiques bubble up from ringside or the bb's are not THAT important in the grand scheme of things.

When shows become a place to collect ribbons and look cleverer than the rest of the local training level scum, when judges who mark low are 'just wrong', when clinics become a place to demonstrate expertise instead of places to learn - we all in a whole heap a trouble.

ThreeFigs
May. 23, 2007, 12:42 PM
Inca, go and enjoy the show! On any given day, anyone can have the "Worst Test Ever" or the "Ride of a Lifetime".

If this is your debut at 2nd level, regardless of the score, it becomes your "baseline" score -- the one to equal or better the next time out. So don't worry if it's a 52% -- that leaves you lots of room for improvement, and really, aren't we all mostly interested in the judge's comments? They are meant to be helpful. That's what I like about dressage -- you NEVER go home empty-handed -- you get a score sheet to study. And what the scribe or the railbirds think? Who really cares? YOU know what you've had to work through. YOU know the back story.

The only time I've ever taken a "railbird's" opinion seriously was at our last show. The "railbird" was one of my students, videotaping my ride. I came out of the test pleased -- Bea did not spook, and while she was behind my leg, at least she was MOVING where I pointed her, and that alone was a positive.

I dismounted, saying how pleased I was that Bea didn't completely shut down, and that it felt like a good test. My student said, deadpan, "Wait till you see the tape before you tell us how good it was." Well, my arms and legs were a-flappin' in a futile effort to generate good impulsion. I was mortified!

It's become a barn joke. Now my students flap their limbs and shout, "Look, I'm Beasmom!" What can you do but laugh?

As awful looking as the first test was, we still got a 61%, and improved slightly in the afternoon class for a 62. Thank God it was a local charity show -- no one has to know!

But if that tape ends up on YouTube, I'll have to kill that student...

STF
May. 23, 2007, 12:51 PM
You aren't at Devon - even at Devon, the low FEI score was about 52%, people

Damn, I feel better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STF
May. 23, 2007, 12:53 PM
So, we may end up with a 52%. Or maybe even worse if it's a really bad day - LOL.


Now, your even making fun of my 52!!! LMAO

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 12:58 PM
dressage is like most sports that 'regular citizens' take part in.

most people are not olympic or even alternates. they are regular people. they will only ever ride so well.

recently, a lady wrote about how she regularly got 42 per cents on her little home trained mustang pony she showed at I1. everyone oooohed and ahhhed at that one. if she'd been on a warmblood, she woulda been fresh meat.

we do have such amazingly complex standards for people, LOL!

STF
May. 23, 2007, 01:08 PM
if she'd been on a warmblood, she woulda been fresh meat.


Isnt that sad!!! But your right, if she would have been on a "ohhlaa laa imported" she would have been torn to shreds.

Some people are jerks and they cant help it. I have learned in the last few years to pity them and do my own thing.

We have a few locals here that are the same, but they are hypocrites. The same girl who slammed me for doing a 52, someone emailed me her scores at a rated show even lower than that on a trained horse. So........ what does that tell ya.

Tells ya - ITS A JOKE and not worth getting upset over!

TBROCKS
May. 23, 2007, 01:33 PM
It's very typical to start getting low scores once you get out of the 'training level' puddle, too. You don't break into a new level without a few aches and pains.

The internet gossips are no different than the gatherings around the wash tubs and the pump in the center of the village. The word travels faster and is a little farther spread, but not by so much. What critiques bubble up from ringside or the bb's are not THAT important in the grand scheme of things.

When shows become a place to collect ribbons and look cleverer than the rest of the local training level scum, when judges who mark low are 'just wrong', when clinics become a place to demonstrate expertise instead of places to learn - we all in a whole heap a trouble.

Wow. Training level scrum. Who the hell are you preaching at??

inca
May. 23, 2007, 01:34 PM
STF - I absolutely was NOT making fun of you! I think you knew that, though!

Besides, you posted that you got a 53% at PSG, not a 52%! LOL And personally, I would be glad to just get through a PSG test without throwing up. Matter of fact, if I do decide to debut my horse at 2nd 4, that may be my goal - to finish the test and not throw up!

Aggie4Bar
May. 23, 2007, 01:42 PM
The only time I've ever taken a "railbird's" opinion seriously was at our last show. The "railbird" was one of my students, videotaping my ride. I came out of the test pleased -- Bea did not spook, and while she was behind my leg, at least she was MOVING where I pointed her, and that alone was a positive.

I dismounted, saying how pleased I was that Bea didn't completely shut down, and that it felt like a good test. My student said, deadpan, "Wait till you see the tape before you tell us how good it was." Well, my arms and legs were a-flappin' in a futile effort to generate good impulsion. I was mortified!

It's become a barn joke. Now my students flap their limbs and shout, "Look, I'm Beasmom!" What can you do but laugh?:lol: Sounds familiar. I hadn't seen myself ride in years when I finally had some photos and video taken. :dead: :no: It would not have been so humiliating if I hadn't just stopped teaching. Instead I saw myself guilty of every little thing I'd picked at, falling far short of the standard I'd set. Very embarrassing. :o I don't need railbirds though. I can make myself completely neurotic trying to improve the smallest things even when other people are telling me, "Are you serious? It's fine. Get a grip." Rider things, not horse things. The horse gets a pass for rider error. :D

claire
May. 23, 2007, 02:02 PM
Beasmom, All I can say is I am lucky to have a trainer who sees things like you and ESG!
She always looks at shows as learning tool. And to really learn; best not to "skip grades" :cool: I think that was perhaps what ESG was getting at in her OP (why would pro's overface a 3/4 level horse at FEI?)

I remember when my horse was rehabing from a pretty serious injury and he was about 90% back; I was BEGGING to be able to do a little Training Level class (I mean Xrails and Intro was getting REALLY old) :winkgrin:

Trainer finally agrees...telling me to realize I WILL get nailed for our "missing RL canter" :lol:

Soo, In the test I am trotting from E>B (making sure he was REALLY forward) and I feel him gathering himself and JUMPS out of the ring :eek:
Lovely jump :D

Trainer's remarks after reviewing the test: "Well Kiddo, you just entered the wrong class...the hunter show was last week...so no points for nailing that jump" :winkgrin:

You are right Beasmom: You have to be able to laugh (because these horses will humble you every time) and if you can't take the heat...stay out of the "Public Shows"



I came out of the test pleased -- Bea did not spook, and while she was behind my leg, at least she was MOVING where I pointed her, and that alone was a positive.

I dismounted, saying how pleased I was that Bea didn't completely shut down, and that it felt like a good test. My student said, deadpan, "Wait till you see the tape before you tell us how good it was." Well, my arms and legs were a-flappin' in a futile effort to generate good impulsion. I was mortified!
What can you do but laugh?

FLnurseRN07
May. 23, 2007, 02:56 PM
ESG's resume' has nothing to do with whether or not her opinion is valid. I haven't shown above 2nd yet, but I can tell the difference between a good upper level test and a bad one.

Would the fact that I have not yet ridden an FEI test make my observations any less valid? It's fairly easy to spot a true 3rd level horse & rider floundering through an FEI test that they're not ready for.

By the way, based on ESG's previous postings, observations, and opinions, I'd ride or clinic with her anytime. If she were closer...


Well Said Beasmom. :winkgrin:

I myself, have not shown in about 5 years (LONG STORY), and quite honestly, it doesn't keep me from going to shows, watching and knowing what a good ride is vs a bad one, and voicing my opinion. I live in Florida, so I'm lucky to see world class riding, but also belong to the "local" club that does the small one day, one ring rated shows where yes you get the GOOD the BAD and the extremely UGLY... And yes the scores reflect it. I know one day it may bite me in the butt, voicing my opinions, but most of the riders around here can take it, and we all appreciate honest criticism. I get critiqued by the riders at my barn every time I get on my horse... It's alright.;)

I also have scribed, and in fact have had very candid conversations with the judges during breaks, about quality or lack there of, of certain rides, which REFLECTS TRAINING, not the one out of sync bad ride, but the same scores, the same results of horse and rider, over and over again that are not trained correctly. Yes everyone gets bad scores. I just read on dressagedaily.com that Edward Gal got a low score for him (I think a 57%), the bottom score of the grand prix, because the horse was over stressed and over trained... IT HAPPENS. This was the Dutch National Championships btw. ANKY scored a 78.3, and an 80.7% OMG!!!:eek:

I hope to be back in the show ring by this fall, and I can only say, BRING ON the criticism. I can take it, and I'll enjoy it. FREE training in my opinion. Even the mean things that are said can really make a person learn something. Of course, my horse is a 6 year old that's never been shown. I bought him as a yearling. So I'll be making our debut at the SMALL shows. lol

And finally, ESG, I appreciate everything you've said And understand it, literally. I haven't bought that shadbelly yet. I haven't had a horse to show at that level. And it's ok. I know my and my horses limitations and would never overface them or myself. . lol I think you are just what more and more of us riders need, honesty and to the point
Ciao from sunny Florida!

Liz
May. 23, 2007, 04:23 PM
I keep hoping this thread will die so I have not posted in awhile. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and it is what they say over time that tends to qualify their opinion. I am not asking ESG for her resume to qualify her opinion. I have agreed with her in things she has said in the past and I have always respected her opinion (wheather I agreed or not).

I think this thread crossed the line.

Scores are posted for all to see but the judges remarks are heard by only the scribe and the rider. The scribe can't watch the entire test because they are writing. It must be presumed that the scribe's opinion of the ride was at least partially influenced by the judges comments.

Sorry, IMO it was in poor taste to post like this on a public forum. That's not "telling it like it is"...I presume the judge did that in their comments to the rider.....this thread was a public flogging.

How would you feel if this thread had been started by a judge and not the scribe? There is no legal confidentialy rule but again...it was in poor taste. Sorry ESG...just my opinion. You could have talked with friends about the tragic rides you had to scribe for but when you went on a public forum you went too far.

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 04:27 PM
"training level scrum....Who the hell are you preaching at"

I think that quite a few people get extremely 't*sticular' when they do dressage. They start to think that once they've leaped the might chasm to first level, all the training level people are scum piglets.

i even once saw two 't*sticular' riders trying to define which training level test they did, so one could be better than the other.

i think that's a tad over the edge, myself. but i also think telling in a public forum what the judge told a scribe is over the top. but i invite one and all to consider how many times a month you yourself could be called out for being 'over the top'.

once years ago a person i knew scribed at a local show and proceeded to regale the judge in great detail, what an old, stiff, nasty horse was in the ring, and how awful the rider rode. now THERE was a popular scribe. in india, she would have been beaten with sticks by a crowd of peasants.

it's kinda like, if a person can be clever enough, they can justify about anything they wanna do.

ESG
May. 23, 2007, 04:38 PM
STF, flshgordon, claire, Beasmom, FLnurseRN97, Adamantane - thank you. :cool:

It's not the occasional bad ride that I'm talking about here. Hell, everyone has those occasionally. Either you or the horse leaves your brain in the warm up (or, in my case, in the trailer LOL) and you have your "drop score" for the year. Go past it and move on, no big. But when you see horses that are clearly overfaced at a given level, and consistently (as in, I've seen the same performances at two shows running from some of these riders), that's not "just a bad day". That's incorrect training, incorrect riding, overfacing the horse, or all of the above.

I know different people have different goals when it comes to showing. Heck, the first time I showed my little training mare, I was praying for us to stay in the ring and for me to remember the tests (I hate having callers - tend to ignore them :lol: ) And when one is moving up a level, one usually drops anywhere from 5-10 percentage points, until showing that level is mastered. Been here, done this, will probably continue to do it. But when a horse is showing GP that has no semblance of piaffe or passage, and can't manage a single tempi pass without bucking, rearing, or otherwise misbehaving, you don't have to be an FEI champion to see that that horse doesn't belong there. Flame away, Ryka, but there it is. When you trot/canter down center line, you put your riding and training out there for everyone to see. I, for one, am not going to pretend that I see the emperor's new clothes when they're not there, and I'm not going to pretend that applauding questionable FEI rides is good for the horses, the riders, or the sport in general. If you were just learning tennis, it wouldn't make sense to sign up for Wimbledon. If you are jumping crossrails, don't enter the 3'6" hunter divisions. And if you're not able to do correct work at 3rd level, don't show FEI.

As always, JMO. :cool:

STF
May. 23, 2007, 04:51 PM
I want my title changed to "training level scum!"

STF
May. 23, 2007, 04:52 PM
Or "Queen FEI 53"

STF
May. 23, 2007, 04:53 PM
Yo ESG, dont piss me off or I swear I will ride you know who at Training level with a hot pink under shirt and a shadbelly! ;)

slc2
May. 23, 2007, 04:57 PM
i agree, esg, but only to a point. sure, it would be nice if everyone agreed about how to decide what level to ride and everyone had the same idea as you. but they don't.

i know people who LOVE their horse and have a riot plopping around at some local show doing fei. they have a great old time - wine coolers are consumed, Ruby Tuesday's gets a lot of business, the show office's coffers bulge with the coinage of crappy fei riders. Self declared crappy fei riders, who are having fun and have a good old laugh when they make a boo boo. Face it, they aren't beating anyone out of an olympic berth and most of them are nowhere as deluded as onlookers may assume. Most of them know very well what mistakes they are making and are in fact, attempting to improve. They get their noses rubbed in it regularly by the judges...and they still have a good old time.

Quite frankly, I fail to see how they are ANY different from the training level riders who go to a show when they can't pick up one canter lead and their rallying cry is 'it's just training level!' it's ok for them, why is it a sin for the fei rider? 'my priorities are different', 'i don't look at showing that way', 'go and have fun', why is it ok for that to be the training level rider's mantra, and not ok for the fei rider?

i think we all know people who are dying to get that shad belly on and don't care how crappy they do and are quite high and mighty about it; and there are a fair number of people who won't be able to tell how crappy they're doing, and that's who they're trying to impress.

when a friend of mine -of course, this was decades ago in a far off land when we still drove a carriage to get to school and fought wars with arrows - was told to stay out of the PSG sandbox til her basics were better, she went postal. right in the arena, for god's sake. she was wailing at the top of her lungs about how 'amateurs don't have anything else to look forward to' except getting medals and yadda yadda. one of the cleverest speeches i ever heard.

the trainer said, 'how about looking forward to the enjoyment of being with your horse and training it, and improving it?'

no no no no no. we have to go to psg and get ourselves to the biggest fei show in the east.

and score a 50 percent.

i KNOW, esg, i see them every day.

but do you think posts like yours are REALLY going to change how they think?

Ryka
May. 23, 2007, 06:52 PM
ESG... did you ever think that maybe the rider doesn't give a rats ass? They just want to have fun, and if a shit ride is fun for them let them be happy. Stop trying to steal their sunshine... there's enough to go around.

Sonesta
May. 23, 2007, 06:57 PM
WOW! I thought this thread had died. I think everyone should back slowly away from their keyboards.

pinkASB
May. 23, 2007, 07:38 PM
Shadbellys sure are pretty though!

STF
May. 23, 2007, 08:26 PM
Mostly with a hot pink "wife beather" underneed too! :lol:

ThreeFigs
May. 23, 2007, 08:34 PM
Yup. Pink & black look good together. Hmmmm. Pink vest points?

I think this thread is breathing its last....

ESG
May. 23, 2007, 08:49 PM
Oddly enough, I saw this very thing at championships last year. FEI rider with a black shadbelly, pink vest points, pink edging on her stock tie, single strand of rhinestones on the browband of a black bay horse. Absolutely stunning - easily the best turned out horse at the show, and that is saying something. :yes:

STF
May. 23, 2007, 09:01 PM
And I thought I was being original! :lol:

Adamantane
May. 23, 2007, 10:15 PM
I'll say this: However anyone comes down on this thread -- obviously I have have a point of view, despite my longtime signature line which to some might theoretically disqualify me from being entitled to express any opinion at all about this issue -- ESG has an exceptional knack for generating interest in whatever she might opine.

As a well-credentialed COTH thread killer, my hat is off to her for the interest she invariably generates (even if she is here being perhaps just a tad parochial about the intrinsic admirability of chutzpah. :winkgrin:)

Glad Erin didn't take my cue after the thread began to degenerate. I would have been wrong. Once the votes were collected it appears there is a clear consensus in favor of freedom of speech and objectivity.

Pommederue
May. 23, 2007, 10:28 PM
Oddly enough, I saw this very thing at championships last year. FEI rider with a black shadbelly, pink vest points, pink edging on her stock tie, single strand of rhinestones on the browband of a black bay horse. Absolutely stunning - easily the best turned out horse at the show, and that is saying something. :yes:
Hmmm, well for her sake, I hope she scored well enough to deserve to wear that color. Otherwise there might have been a thread here wondering if there was a sale on pink material...

ESG
May. 24, 2007, 09:25 AM
I don't recall. Do recall, however, that the judge also remarked on how lovely the turnout was. And as that particular class was a championship class, the rides were uniformly good, and some spectacular. :cool:

ESG
May. 24, 2007, 09:37 AM
I'll say this: However anyone comes down on this thread -- obviously I have have a point of view, despite my longtime signature line which to some might theoretically disqualify me from being entitled to express any opinion at all about this issue -- ESG has an exceptional knack for generating interest in whatever she might opine.

No great secret, Adamantane - just be controversial. People may love you, and people may hate you, but if what you have to say contains truth, and common experience, most folks will not ignore you. Just ask Jerry Springer. :D


As a well-credentialed COTH thread killer, my hat is off to her for the interest she invariably generates (even if she is here being perhaps just a tad parochial about the intrinsic admirability of chutzpah. :winkgrin:)

Actually, I was convinced the thread was dead, and was going to throw a New Orleans style wake for it. Guess I'll have to cancel the food now........:D


Glad Erin didn't take my cue after the thread began to degenerate. I would have been wrong. Once the votes were collected it appears there is a clear consensus in favor of freedom of speech and objectivity.

And what a nice surprise that was. :yes:

barwin
Jun. 19, 2007, 10:15 PM
So - ESG - As per your post on 8 May 2007 8:24 Am -

You are not currently competing at this level. Please tell us as to when you have competed at the FEI level. I checked the USDF Website, it does not appear that you have earned the bronze or silver medals. So I did not bather to check for the Gold Medal. What awards have you won in dressage.
Please tell us what the highest level you have competed at and what were yor scores.

What credentials do you have to make such statements?

Further you stated "if a fellow professional performes poorly at a given level, no one's allowed to say anything? Sorry, but no. These are people who are trainig others. If they aren't doing it right, what does it say about there teaching......."

Number one: Please tell us about your scores from last week-ends HDS Show. Did you or did you not place last in every class you entered??
Which was Training Level and First Level. Please explain why you think it is ok for you to score at 50% and it is alright - at TRAINING LEVEL. PLease - hello - what I am not getting here. You are sitting in a glass house throughing rocks.

Second: There have been high scores in FEI - can you score a 68% in I-1 on both days??

I personally think you are jealous not to have horses in training that even have the ability to perform upper level dressage.


And I like your last statement in your post- "And if it makes you feel better, there were more than a couple of amateurs who were overfacing themselves and there horse". Well- whith you saying that - I SAY - during last week -ends show (16 and 17 June 2007) was a professional who was overfaced.

And certainly - your post has not helped for Texas to look better.

I am deply insulted by your post.

a

Dalfan
Jun. 19, 2007, 10:51 PM
And certainly - your post has not helped for Texas to look better.

And yours has?

Go away, troll.

And besides - this thread is about those FEI-level riders that shouldn't have been riding at that level. There is another thread bashing ESG's ride (I'm sure you are well aware of it, considering you just joined to add your dead weight to the pile).

You are right, though. This little area of Texas appears to have quite a few nasty, vindictive, just plain old mean....beotches.

dray
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:09 PM
WOW! Just as I've given in to the fact that I won't make it back to VA/NC and I'm now a Texan, I hear the new flash!!!!

Guess I didn't realize we sucked so badly either. We're a big state, so I guess we get to be first in something else?????

LOL
If a man's grasp does not exceed his reach, then.........wtf...is that how it goes?

Donna
Carson Farm
www.carson-farm.com

STF
Jun. 19, 2007, 11:29 PM
It goes two ways here.....

Den som gräver en grop åt andra faller ofta själv däri

SillyHorse
Jun. 20, 2007, 09:21 AM
And certainly - your post has not helped for Texas to look better.
And yours hasn't done much to make the Texas educational system look better.

flshgordon
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:19 PM
So - ESG - As per your post on 8 May 2007 8:24 Am -

You are not currently competing at this level. Please tell us as to when you have competed at the FEI level. I checked the USDF Website, it does not appear that you have earned the bronze or silver medals. So I did not bather to check for the Gold Medal. What awards have you won in dressage.
Please tell us what the highest level you have competed at and what were yor scores.

What credentials do you have to make such statements?


Nice of you to join us---troll :rolleyes:

I just fail to understand how those of you with this argument think it has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING??? Say I ride lower levels? I'm not allowed to make an observation that overall the rides at one show were 10-15% lower in some divisions because I didn't ride in those divisions??? :confused: How is that not my right?

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 12:28 PM
DONT FEED THE TROLLS!

Lambie Boat
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:21 PM
I am deply insulted by your post.

a


Texans still use dep? Don't they know there's been huge advances made in hair styling products?

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:23 PM
My feelings are deeply offended!

This was my first response, I spelled Deeply right!! ;)

STF
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:24 PM
:lol:
Texans still use dep? Don't they know there's been huge advances made in hair styling products?

Only when braiding the mane!

GreekDressageQueen
Jun. 20, 2007, 01:58 PM
I am already starting on the second bottle of wine...;):lol::lol:

As someone who has just been absolutely crucified on another thread, I really feel bad for ESG and so admire STC for supporting her friend. I have learned that these forum postings quickly spiral into something that was not originally intended and it is hard not get defensive or hurt by what people say.

I am sure we have all said tacky and snarky things about dressage riders and it isn't always appropriate, fair, or warranted. But, at the end of the day, I am still jealous of the person who has a horse even sort of doing FEI! The tempis may suck and the rider's a$$ may fly out of the saddle, but I would rather ride a horse doing bad tempis with my a$$ all over the place than have a horse with no tempis and a small a$$!

Well, now that I come to think of it - I would rather have a small a$$. :lol:

Pass the chardonnay please...

flshgordon
Jun. 20, 2007, 02:11 PM
Well, now that I come to think of it - I would rather have a small a$$. :lol:

Pass the chardonnay please...

I'll take the small a$$ and no tempis anyday! :winkgrin:

inca
Jun. 20, 2007, 02:14 PM
I want it ALL! I want a small a$$ AND tempi changes.

I think we should have emptied an entire wine cellar by now - LOL.

Kairoshorses
Jun. 20, 2007, 05:05 PM
Ok, GDQ said chardonnay. Others have simply said wine.

Am I doomed? I like big reds and single malt scotch.

I SO want to be good horseman/woman/person. But I fear I won't be able to get into the club if I don't drink the right stuff.

What do dressage enthusiasts drink?

Sonesta
Jun. 20, 2007, 05:16 PM
I SO want to be good horseman/woman/person. But I fear I won't be able to get into the club if I don't drink the right stuff.

What do dressage enthusiasts drink?

Mostly kool-aid

Spectrum
Jun. 26, 2007, 02:21 PM
As someone who has lived in TX, in the midwest and the northeast and been very involved in the dressage community in all three locations, I think ESG's thread was absolutely inappropriate.

I've scribed and I've judged in the past. I've also worked in the office at shows and have a friend who runs several recognized dressage shows. As someone who has judged, I'd be horrified to read that someone who scribed for me was posting something like this in public. As someone who has scribed, I'm very aware of how serious my duties are, and that includes avoiding *any* appearance of impropriety on my part, because as someone working in a very important role, even if I'm not technically a show representative I realize that having been on "the inside" of the scoring/judging circle I have a responsibility to the both the riders and the show management to stay and appear impartial.

As someone who has been on the inside of a show circuit, I can tell you that in our neck of the woods, that scribe wouldn't be asked again. Period. And if the show management couldn't find another scribe, the show manager would likely do it before having someone who might potentially spew on a public forum like this... if nothing else, it's bad for business.

The scores speak for themselves, yes. There were apparently some less-than-ideal tests at the FEI level at the show. And I am familiar with some of the people and may even agree with opinions on whether they should have been showing at that level.

But it is just not appropriate for someone who scribed at a show to make these kinds of observations on a public forum in a way that identifies who is being talked about and what show is being referred to. If you must discuss it, do it in general enough terms that people can't identify anyone. You're doing a disservice to the show at the very least, and as you can see, at the most you're causing a public outcry which I heard about from a TX friend all the way up here in the midwest over a month after the fact.

Shame on those of you who are supporting this type of behavior from a show scribe.

Spectrum.

SillyHorse
Jun. 26, 2007, 03:02 PM
But it is just not appropriate for someone who scribed at a show to make these kinds of observations on a public forum in a way that identifies who is being talked about and what show is being referred to. If you must discuss it, do it in general enough terms that people can't identify anyone.
Or just don't mention you were a scribe. :lol:

slc2
Jun. 26, 2007, 03:47 PM
and that makes it alright, huh?

Spectrum
Jun. 26, 2007, 05:49 PM
Or just don't mention you were a scribe. :lol:

EXACTLY.

I don't think it's a good idea to bash people in an identifiable way on a public forum under any circumstances. But if someone wants to do it under the guise of a casual observer, I guess it isn't my place to say anything.

However, if you're identifying yourself as a scribe or another person operating in some kind of official capacity with the show, you should have enough respect for show management not to do things that could affect the show in the future. That's not just a "nice thing to do" it's something people should take as a serious responsibility.

After all... don't you think alot of riders are going to be thinking twice about this next year? Or asking show management if ESG will be scribing again? I sure would! Who wants to get publicly humiliated if they're having a bad ride or a bad day?

Spectrum.

egontoast
Jun. 27, 2007, 05:45 AM
I've been scribing for the last 7 years and just currently learned that there is an official rule that scribe needs to "zip it" and be quiet about what happened in the judge's box.

It's just common sense and also common courtesy to the show organizers, the judge and the competitors. I guess you don't 'get it' if you feel there has to be a rule to prevent this sort of behavior. Call it show ettiquette if you need to label common sense with some other name.

As many can recall, your indiscretion was even more inappropriate than just making personal observations as a scribe. You posted actual comments from a score sheet and argued on this board with another poster about her test and scores and the judge's comments on the score sheet. Anyone who has scribed even once let alone for several years and let alone being enrolled in the L program surely knows that the judge's comments on the test sheet are for the rider alone and that's why we don't give just anyone the test sheet. The inappropriateness of a scribe publishing on a public bulletin board about a particular judge's comments on a particular test sheet should be just obvious. Obvious things should not have to be written in the rules.

There is no rule that the scribe may not defecate on the test sheet either , so...?

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 27, 2007, 09:39 AM
Ok ... to sidestep bashing for a sec ... DA, where did you get this paragraph? It looks like a rule, but you say that you can't find rules:

Dressage Rules.
A scribe shall be provided for each judge whose sole duty shall be to record the judge’s scores and comments on the horse’s individual score card. Scribes should have a knowledge of the tests being ridden. Scribes (including electronic scribes) should not be an owner, coach, trainer or family member of a competitor/horse in the class(es) in which they are scribing. Scribe changes should not be made more than once per day for each judge. First-time scribes must not be assigned to foreign judges or judges for FEI level classes. It is strongly recommended that scribes and apprentice judges not compete before judges with whom they have worked at the same competition. BOD 1/14/06 Effective 3/1/07 Scores and comments must be written in ink. Judges’
comments, while judging, may not be audio-recorded without written permission of the judge(s).

I ask because I've seen a lot of violations on the "changing of scribes more than once a day". One local organizers works scribes in 2-hour shifts. I think it would make the judges nuts and said so. I was ignored.

Also, I asked a judge for whom I was scribing whether I should excuse myself if I ended up writing for my own horse (as owner). She said it was not necessary. I agree that the appearance of possible impropriety is a higher goal and probably WOULD do so, but I guess it's not an actual rule.

And finally, I do know situations at recognized (USEF not FEI) shows where a judge has been presented with a first-time scribe and started the day with FEI *level* tests.

What do you make of all of that?

Spectrum
Jun. 27, 2007, 03:12 PM
What do you make of all of that?


Hmm... I make that if the show organizers are that blase' about rule-breaking, they're likely breaking other rules as well. I also make that the judges who had first-time scribes for FEI and had their scribes switched every two hours are likely going to remember who they want to judge for in the future. I also make that a judge who found out afterwards they were judging a scribe's horse or student would be unhappy to learn this, as it could potentially affect the judge's credibility as well.

Spectrum.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 27, 2007, 03:34 PM
... for a sec? Are you kidding me? Thank you, but no thank you. I come here for humor and useful information. I'm permanently done with posters who regularly use personal attacks on others, troublemaking trolls or teenagers hiding behind the faceless screen names. I'm sure they will keep your company and can give you all of the very useful information that you seek.

Excuse me? I don't bash you, my questions are genuine and if I challenge you on issues, it's not to belittle or make fun of you, but for discussion.

My "for a sec" was MEANT humorously about the entire thread, DA ... grab a cold one and put it on your forehead. I think you need a compress and maybe a little kindness towards others?

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 27, 2007, 03:37 PM
Hmm... I make that if the show organizers are that blase' about rule-breaking, they're likely breaking other rules as well. I also make that the judges who had first-time scribes for FEI and had their scribes switched every two hours are likely going to remember who they want to judge for in the future. I also make that a judge who found out afterwards they were judging a scribe's horse or student would be unhappy to learn this, as it could potentially affect the judge's credibility as well.

Spectrum.

I'm wondering if it's just a fact of life when shows are run by busy volunteers who don't always seem to have the resources to "learn" the rules (?) ...

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 04:39 PM
Rules or no rules, you'd think people would have the common sense and manners to keep their mouths shut when they've scribed. At least don't say what show, classes, etc. as ESG displayed, that's just a STUPID move!

flshgordon
Jun. 27, 2007, 04:54 PM
Ryka, what exactly IS your problem :confused: You claim you don't live here, or even in the region, yet you have exactly 49 posts on this forum since you joined and all but 6 of them involve you slamming ESG in some way or another. I've never seen such a vendetta from someone who supposedly doesn't know the involved party.

I also happened to notice that in one of your posts you indicated someone should refer to a "Miss Manners" book. Methinks you should take your own advice :rolleyes:

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 05:50 PM
Ryka, what exactly IS your problem :confused: You claim you don't live here, or even in the region, yet you have exactly 49 posts on this forum since you joined and all but 6 of them involve you slamming ESG in some way or another. I've never seen such a vendetta from someone who supposedly doesn't know the involved party.

I also happened to notice that in one of your posts you indicated someone should refer to a "Miss Manners" book. Methinks you should take your own advice :rolleyes:

My problem is, I think what ESG did is extremely wrong. She doesn't even acknowledge the fact that people are very angry and hurt by her comments, it's like "oops! it never happend". That's B.S. I don't see how in the world she can claim she's a professional when she doesn't even act like an adult and take responsibility for her actions. Sorry, if you hang low and pretend everything is hunky-dorey IT WON'T JUST MAGICALLY DISAPPEAR! That is not reality. People rarely forget such actions of the guilty.

I'm well aware some may think my opinions are rude, I take full responsibility for my opinions. However, I also do not claim to be a professional, and I keep my mouth shut when I'm scribing for a judge and do not discuss what I heard while in the scribes chair, nor do I publically bash rides and point out just exactly what show it was, what days, and what rides/levels.

I normally am a lurker and have been so for quite a few years, but this just grated my nerves that I had to come out of the woodwork. :mad: That's why I only have X amount of posts on these threads. Next?

Dalfan
Jun. 27, 2007, 05:58 PM
My problem is, I think what ESG did is extremely wrong. She doesn't even acknowledge the fact that people are very angry and hurt by her comments

Yes, Yes. We've heard it numerous times from you. And how do you know that ESG has not talked with the people whose feelings were hurt? Are you expecting her to apologize to you? Who are you that she should? Unless, you are in fact one of those she was referring to, or perhaps a friend or relative?

You just take any opportunity to come on this thread and stir it up again.

She owes you NOTHING.

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:03 PM
Oh please... :rolleyes:

I don't stir this thread up anymore than anyone else. In fact, I'm not even the one who dug it up yet again.

Dalfan
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:06 PM
No, but when it is resurrected, you are right there, throwing your little barbs.

If you're not one of the riders showing that day, she owes you diddly-squat.

Risotto
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:06 PM
My Goodness!!! This entire thing is just silly! I'm sure ESG has had her share of embarassment from [what seems like] her lack of judgement. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Even if ESG is all these horrible things, what does it matter to anyone? If you don't like her don't train with her, and don't socialize with her. I think everyone just needs to go ride your horses and stop fanning the flames!:yes:

Dalfan
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:08 PM
I think everyone just needs to go ride your horses and stop fanning the flames!

I agree. But for some reason Ryka thinks she is owed something.

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
No, but when it is resurrected, you are right there, throwing your little barbs.

If you're not one of the riders showing that day, she owes you diddly-squat.

I didn't say she owed ME anything, did I? No, I didn't.
Your responses keep the thread alive too... :sleepy::rolleyes:

Risotto
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:13 PM
Enough already??? Why hasn't a moderator shut these threads down yet??? They obviously are just going to keep on it seems.

You're all adults I assume, why can't people just get along? At least fake it. :lol:

flshgordon
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:17 PM
Oh please... :rolleyes:

I don't stir this thread up anymore than anyone else.

Sorry, gotta call BS on this one!!!!!!!

You are the sole person still here b*tching about ESG personally and making stupid little jabs at her PERSONALLY. This crap about "claims to be a professional"....blah blah blah. She IS a professional and just because you don't like something she said or did doesn't make her not a professional. There are lots of professionals in lots of jobs that I don't like or agree with, but my opinion (or yours!) does not make it less so.

So you think she did something wrong.....good for you, why dwell on it when you have voiced your opinion and the situation has nothing to do with you?

She doesn't owe you squat.....explanations, apologies or anything else so why not just move on with your life and stop whining about something that does not involve you in any way.

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:30 PM
:sleepy:

specialops
Jun. 27, 2007, 06:57 PM
GOOSE-FRAH-BAHHHHH

(anger management) ;)

Pony Fixer
Jun. 27, 2007, 07:44 PM
My problem is, I think what ESG did is extremely wrong.

I normally am a lurker and have been so for quite a few years,

If you've been lurking even for a few months you would know that in recent history, ESG is not the only person to scribe for a judge and then discuss it on this BB. Both were outed and I would gather that both have learned their lesson.

Yet, as near as I can tell, you slam ESG, but not the other poster. Something smells fishy. Mistakes were made. Mistakes were discussed for 12+ pages on several threads. We all know you have a low tolerance for "injustice". Get over it already.

sherie
Jun. 27, 2007, 08:28 PM
I have to say I'm on esg's side on this. I don't know who the heck she is talking about personally, nor do I care. She was simply offering a somewhat anonymous opinion about something she observed. She mentioned no names, showed pictures,etc. I was once skewered on this same forum for mentioning an observation at a very pathetic clinic. I never said who or where but the assumptions flew and were totally wrong. I believe this is an arena for free speech and ideally should not be carried back to the barn. Just leave it online.

Ryka
Jun. 27, 2007, 11:57 PM
:lol::lol::lol: Anonymous my skinny white ass :lol::lol::lol:

Spectrum
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:40 AM
GOOSE-FRAH-BAHHHHH

(anger management) ;)


OMG, you have no idea how many times I've done this!

Unfortunately, no one has gotten it as of yet (apparently it wasn't a very widely-watched film, haha).

Major kudos!

Adamantane
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:56 AM
After seeing this thread rise and re-rise from the dead, and after having read all the comments that keep being tossed up on the beach about some purported breach of ethics or such was associated with ESG's posts, I went back and reread them.

Apparently some highly critical posters haven't read them the first time.:no:
Reminds me of book reviews based on other book reviews rather than on the book itself.

Now maybe I blinked, but I think that at no point did ESG ever make any reference to what the judge said to her, or what she might have said to the judge, if anything. She didn't relay the judge's sotto voce comments about anyone or even the show as a whole. She betrayed no confidences, revealed no secrets, named no names.

In fact if her posts could be criticized for anything (other than others may have seen it differently, which is irrelevant to putative ethical or professional breaches) it is that ESG's generalizations may have been too sweeping and generalized and non-specific, and would have benefited from the supporting details she so carefully omitted.

As I read it, her even having been a scribe was incidental to the comments she made.

The only way her scribing was relevant to her comments is that it suggests she was well positioned to watch and see from the same vantage point as the judge when she wasn't writing down comments, and that she likely paid close attention to at least parts of each ride throughout the time she was scribing. Haven't asked, but I presume that was why she mentioned it at all.

She could have made the identical observations (from a slightly different vantage point) and drawn the same conclusions if she had been seated in the stands, though there perhaps she might not have been quite as attentive as when seated next to the judge. Of course she wouldn't have been distracted by writing, either.:)

Had ESG simply watched closely from the stands and looked at the final scores to validate her impressions, she might have posted otherwise identical comments with the same basis (or, for those who disagree with them, lack of basis) as she did.

So why is it that so many posters have gotten on their high horses about it -- such a great term for COTH forums:D -- when ESG's scribing was irrelevant and unconnected to her opinions or anything she posted, other than to suggest she was paying close attention the whole time?

There's a slogan that when attorneys have the facts on their side, they argue the facts, when they have the law on their side, they argue the law, and when they have neither, they pound the desk and make a lot of distracting racket.

If ESG were repeating the judge's confidential asides, or if there were any, the judge's sighs or tsk-tsks, the situation would be very different.

She wasn't. It isn't.

Apologies are owed here, but it isn't ESG who should be doing the apologizing.:no:

For my part, I'm wrong about the facts or draw the wrong conclusions fiarly often and can live with it. When somebody accuses me of an ethical breach or a lack of professionalism (especially in my own field), however, those are fighting words. :yes: ESG is far more gracious under such provocation than I would be.:yes:

Funckyfilly
Jun. 28, 2007, 08:04 AM
Great post Adamantane.

Sonesta
Jun. 28, 2007, 10:04 AM
Right on, Adamantane

Brady'smom
Jun. 28, 2007, 10:13 AM
This thread is like the pink bunny in sunglasses who keeps beating the drum. Every so often I see it resurface, going and going and going.

I didn't bother looking at it past the initial few posts ages ago, and now I see by perusing the last several, that it has experienced slinging and arrows.

Glad I still have not read it.

:dead:

HRSPWR
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:02 PM
Because I've never before seen so many people wearing them that shouldn't be, as I did today. :rolleyes:

So, another USDF show today (and yesterday). I scribed this morning and early afternoon, for a wonderful judge. Started with GP and PSG this morning, followed by FEI freestyles and the odd I1 or I2 ride.

It wasn't pretty. :no:

Why, oh why, do people overface themselves and their horses? There were horses showing GP that would have been perfectly at home at 2nd/3rd. I won't go into the scores, except to say they were reflective of the rides. But, damn! I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.

This silly thread just won't die!! But it's like a train wreck.... you just can't look away. It's kinda like Paris Hilton and Anna Nicole Smith- famous for being infamous, and neither one of them ever contributed much to society, either!
Oh, well... I read over the original post....again, as well as the subsequent posts. The OP who is known to be in Houston, TX, from lots of other posts, reflects on rides at a specific show where anyone would know what show, classes, what arenas, what judges and what riders/horses/trainers were involved. You only have to go to the web site for the show to see any of that specific info. So it is not anonymous or general in nature, except to bash Texas in general. I can see where those people would be hurt by the comments made by a person who touts herself as a professional trainer. Especially a trainer who does not have the competitive record she says she has, nor students. People who live in glass houses....
This is a public BB. Be mindful of what you say. You CAN say ANYTHING you like, but when you scrutinize others, you put yourself up for scrutiny. Which is EXACTLY why I count myself as a RANK amatuer! And I do not accept other people's money for anything horsey related. I'm not qualified and I know it. I think there are LOTS of people who count themselves as "professional" who probably don't meet industry standards. Just because one accepts money for one's opinions, does not make one a credible authority. It's too bad that being paid meets the basic description of "professional". I think in general European trainers disdain American trainers for just that reason. Results are what matters. If you can't ride your way out of a paper bag and present a horse that is fit enough to take to a show, much less educated, you should not point a finger.
As to the post from Adamantane:
When ESG stated she was a scribe, she did so to give her views credibility for having sat with the judge and being involved with a show- something she did not do as a rider or trainer at that show. So being a scribe was inded NOT incidental. And we all know that being a scribe involves etiquette. Being a scribe for an upper level class pretty much precludes watching the ride, so her impressions very likely came from the judges comments and individual movement scores ("1's", etc) which is not for public consumption, only the overall scores are posted and should be only given out by the individual competitor at their own discretion. But she did share this information. So while I agree her conclusions might have been similar had she been just an observer in the stands, and she is entitled to her opinion, in this particular case she was a scribe, was privy to the judges comments, which should not be shared nor alluded to in any way. She abused her position as a scribe to lend authority to her statements. That is why what she did is wrong. Not that she is wrong to have an opinion. It is rude and unprofessional to bash fellow professionals, if you count yourself in their numbers. It is ok to offer very carefully worded opinions if you can back them up, but you risk being alienated. That's Ok, if you don't mind the repercussion. ESG did repeat the judges "sighs" when she told the individual scores specifiaclly. She was and it is taking advantage of the judge and downright bad manners. Apologies are owed and ESG should be doing the apologizing. She is probably really enjoying the ongoing posts about herself. She probably takes it as a compliment and enjoys the attention. It's probably the most attention she's ever gotten from anyone in the horse world. The first I ever heard of her, anyway. Sad it's born of her ungracious behavior! Provocation?? I think not. Provoked is more the term.
I understand she showed in Region 9 recently for the first time, but has lived there for MANY YEARS according to her other posts. I hear her ride was awful, scores low, horse looked unfit, and poorly turned out, and excuses were being manufactured to cover it all. When I first read all this mess, I thought people were on a witch hunt. More and more I see the affrontery at ESG's comments may be well founded. I can't find ANYTHING of import she has ever done competively, any students or horses trained by her as she states, anyone training with her now or showing. Was the owner of the horse she recently showed at that show?? Is the horse still with ESG?? If I paid a "trainer" for that many months to care for and train my horse, full board and training, and had the results and appearance that horse apparently had, I would be crying "FRAUD" and rescuing my horse ASAP!

To say she breached no secrets, names, etc. is incorrect due to the fact she said which show and which classes.... One only has to look at the show bill to see exactly who was included in the scathing comments.
Her comments did have details.... "some 1's were given" and that they were deserved....
Fighting words????

HRSPWR
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:03 PM
Because I've never before seen so many people wearing them that shouldn't be, as I did today. :rolleyes:

So, another USDF show today (and yesterday). I scribed this morning and early afternoon, for a wonderful judge. Started with GP and PSG this morning, followed by FEI freestyles and the odd I1 or I2 ride.

It wasn't pretty. :no:

Why, oh why, do people overface themselves and their horses? There were horses showing GP that would have been perfectly at home at 2nd/3rd. I won't go into the scores, except to say they were reflective of the rides. But, damn! I know why Texas dressage is viewed the way it is by the rest of the country.

This silly thread just won't die!! But it's like a train wreck.... you just can't look away. It's kinda like Paris Hilton and Anna Nicole Smith- famous for being infamous, and neither one of them ever contributed much to society, either!
Oh, well... I read over the original post....again, as well as the subsequent posts. The OP who is known to be in Houston, TX, from lots of other posts, reflects on rides at a specific show where anyone would know what show, classes, what arenas, what judges and what riders/horses/trainers were involved. You only have to go to the web site for the show to see any of that specific info. So it is not anonymous or general in nature, except to bash Texas in general. I can see where those people would be hurt by the comments made by a person who touts herself as a professional trainer. Especially a trainer who does not have the competitive record she says she has, nor students. People who live in glass houses....
This is a public BB. Be mindful of what you say. You CAN say ANYTHING you like, but when you scrutinize others, you put yourself up for scrutiny. Which is EXACTLY why I count myself as a RANK amatuer! And I do not accept other people's money for anything horsey related. I'm not qualified and I know it. I think there are LOTS of people who count themselves as "professional" who probably don't meet industry standards. Just because one accepts money for one's opinions, does not make one a credible authority. It's too bad that being paid meets the basic description of "professional". I think in general European trainers disdain American trainers for just that reason. Results are what matters. If you can't ride your way out of a paper bag and present a horse that is fit enough to take to a show, much less educated, you should not point a finger.
As to the post from Adamantane:
When ESG stated she was a scribe, she did so to give her views credibility for having sat with the judge and being involved with a show- something she did not do as a rider or trainer at that show. So being a scribe was inded NOT incidental. And we all know that being a scribe involves etiquette. Being a scribe for an upper level class pretty much precludes watching the ride, so her impressions very likely came from the judges comments and individual movement scores ("1's", etc) which is not for public consumption, only the overall scores are posted and should be only given out by the individual competitor at their own discretion. But she did share this information. So while I agree her conclusions might have been similar had she been just an observer in the stands, and she is entitled to her opinion, in this particular case she was a scribe, was privy to the judges comments, which should not be shared nor alluded to in any way. She abused her position as a scribe to lend authority to her statements. That is why what she did is wrong. Not that she is wrong to have an opinion. It is rude and unprofessional to bash fellow professionals, if you count yourself in their numbers. It is ok to offer very carefully worded opinions if you can back them up, but you risk being alienated. That's Ok, if you don't mind the repercussion. ESG did repeat the judges "sighs" when she told the individual scores specifiaclly. She was and it is taking advantage of the judge and downright bad manners. Apologies are owed and ESG should be doing the apologizing. She is probably really enjoying the ongoing posts about herself. She probably takes it as a compliment and enjoys the attention. It's probably the most attention she's ever gotten from anyone in the horse world. The first I ever heard of her, anyway. Sad it's born of her ungracious behavior! Provocation?? I think not. Provoked is more the term.
I understand she showed in Region 9 recently for the first time, but has lived there for MANY YEARS according to her other posts. I hear her ride was awful, scores low, horse looked unfit, and poorly turned out, and excuses were being manufactured to cover it all. When I first read all this mess, I thought people were on a witch hunt. More and more I see the affrontery at ESG's comments may be well founded. I can't find ANYTHING of import she has ever done competively, any students or horses trained by her as she states, anyone training with her now or showing. Was the owner of the horse she recently showed at that show?? Is the horse still with ESG?? If I paid a "trainer" for that many months to care for and train my horse, full board and training, and had the results and appearance that horse apparently had, I would be crying "FRAUD" and rescuing my horse ASAP!
To say she breached no secrets, names, etc. is incorrect due to the fact she said which show and which classes.... One only has to look at the show bill to see exactly who was included in the scathing comments.
Her comments did have details.... "some 1's were given" and that they were deserved....
Fighting words????

Dalfan
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
To say she breached no secrets, names, etc. is incorrect due to the fact she said which show and which classes....

I don't recall her saying which show or riders. Can you point that quote out please.

Ryka
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:28 PM
THANK YOU HRSPWR!!

And

That's a load of crap, Dalfan!


ESG: So, another USDF show today (and yesterday). I scribed this morning and early afternoon, for a wonderful judge. Started with GP and PSG this morning, followed by FEI freestyles and the odd I1 or I2 ride.

Exactly HOW MANY USDF shows IN TEXAS were that weekend that ESG scribed?? One I believe, yes, Houston Dressage Society Spring Classics I & II.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist my dear. :rolleyes:

Please, and from what I hear... ESG hasn't been on a horse since the show. Thought you had a mare in full training, ESG? You wouldn't happen to be lying the her owner and stealing her money, hmm?

siegi b.
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:30 PM
How many USDF shows do you think took place in the Houston area on the day that ESG posted her diatribe? And nobody mentioned rider names (only you, Dalfan) but certainly the levels were mentioned (PSG, GP, the odd I1 or I2).

I happen to agree with HORSPWR in her estimation of what was appropriate and what wasn't. For the last few years that I've been a member of COTH I've noticed ESG's sometimes scathing posts regarding the stupidity of other riders/posters. Funny that the excuse made by her friends is that "ESG is known to speak her mind"..... I guess that's one way of putting it! :-)

So now the roles are reversed and now it's not ok for others to notice that her behavior was less than appropriate when talking about competitiors that rode for the judge she happened to scribe for? Give me a break!

Dalfan
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:37 PM
Exactly HOW MANY USDF shows IN TEXAS were that weekend that ESG scribed?? One I believe, yes, Houston Dressage Society Spring Classics I & II.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist my dear.

I guess if one wanted to spend the effort to look it up, fine. The point is, she didn't name the show or the riders.


Please, and from what I hear... ESG hasn't been on a horse since the show. Thought you had a mare in full training, ESG? You wouldn't happen to be lying the her owner and stealing her money, hmm?

Wow! You are so over the top here and obviously full of hate, pettiness and a very vindictive person with a hair up your arse regarding ESG.

Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with such rhetoric? Your pouting and foot-stomping tantrums haven't pulled her out to address you personally, so now you are making outrageous accusations. You have a problem.

Be truthful - was your mother one of the riders?

Dalfan
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:38 PM
How many USDF shows do you think took place in the Houston area on the day that ESG posted her diatribe? And nobody mentioned rider names (only you, Dalfan) but certainly the levels were mentioned (PSG, GP, the odd I1 or I2).

I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I didn't mention any riders or the show.

flshgordon
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:38 PM
Please, and from what I hear... ESG hasn't been on a horse since the show. Thought you had a mare in full training, ESG? You wouldn't happen to be lying the her owner and stealing her money, hmm?


And just how the hell would you know? Do you sit outside her driveway each day to see if she's riding? I have never seen such venom for someone a person claims not to know.

As for HPSR....whether or not ESG was talking about ONE, FIVE or ALL of the FEI riders at the show we'll never know will we....why? BECAUSE SHE DIDN"T NAME ANY OF THEM! If someone thinks she was talking about them well then maybe they had a crappy enough ride to think so. There are at least 25 riders (and I didn't count them all) that she could have been talking about. I would hardly call that "naming names".

I give up, there are a couple of you that are just plain on a witchhunt.:no: It's pathetic and it makes no sense. Every time I read this I can't understand how there are people as crazy over something like this in the world.

My ignore list just doubled in size....:rolleyes:

Ryka
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:41 PM
My Mother? Please, my mother passed away 12 years ago. Dalfan, tell me, do you know ESG personally?I have no bugs or wild hairs anywhere. I just really do not think ESG should be let off the hook. I've got it! Dalfan, put YOUR horse in training with ESG and see if anything anyone has said negatively about ESG is truth or lies! :yes::rolleyes:

Ryka
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:46 PM
Flsh, I was told ESG lives in a very horsey area of Houston. She has many neighbors apparently who are riders... they too talk. They also have friends and family members who rode in the classes ESG put down and insulted.

Dalfan
Jun. 28, 2007, 12:52 PM
do you know ESG personally?

No.

What do you want her to do? Come on her and beg YOU for forgiveness? Beg YOU to accept her apology? Again, my question - Who are you that she needs to do that? I could see the logic if you were one of the riders, but if not, she owes YOU nothing.

Again, how do you know she hasn't talked to the RELEVANT parties, of which you are not one.


They also have friends and family members who rode in the classes ESG put down and insulted.

And who made you their spokeperson and keeper of the get-even crusade?

Sonesta
Jun. 28, 2007, 01:02 PM
Wow, Ryka. Just who ARE you? Your initials wouldn't happen to be DH would they?

Guys, I'm beginning to suspect who this might be and if I am correct, there is definitely an agenda here.

Ryka
Jun. 28, 2007, 01:18 PM
No motives at all. And no my initials have no d or h, sorry to disappoint.

Dalfan she doesn't owe me anything. I'm done-- I do hope she has or will apologize to those that do deserve it.

Ryka out.

Dalfan
Jun. 28, 2007, 01:19 PM
Who, Who?? And if you can't tell her name, at least give us the details of her shame.:lol::D

Obviously an agenda from the start.

Liz
Jun. 28, 2007, 01:20 PM
Love her or hate her...this been talked to death. There really is nothing new to say, all that is left is name calling. There are valid points on both sides and they have been discussed. Enough already.

Pommederue
Jun. 28, 2007, 02:07 PM
Great post HRSPWR! Thank you. I fully agree with you and some of the others who believe this post by ESG was completely out of line.

RYKA I'm behind you 100%! I too am mostly a lurker on these boards but this thread really got under my skin. Exactly was is Dalfan's agenda for defending ESG? She's the one that's over the top, not you! And then for ESG to post about her 'sore' horse and what quick fix she can use to make it sound for the show -- made me realize just how unprofessional she really is.

Pony Fixer
Jun. 28, 2007, 02:13 PM
Love her or hate her...this been talked to death. There really is nothing new to say, all that is left is name calling. There are valid points on both sides and they have been discussed. Enough already.

I agree. For cripes sake, the name of the thread alluded to a rant that may offend some. So if you are easily offended (Ryka) then don't read.

And your latest hash slinging re: her recent riding/not riding/STEALING training money is way low. You have stooped way lower than ESG ever did with that one.

And for the record, I don't condone her first post, but I certainly can't sit here while one person is skewered for something others have done with barely a comment.

Risotto
Jun. 28, 2007, 02:43 PM
Wow:eek:!

This thread is gone way too far. Ryka I have reported you to Erin. I hope the appropriate actions are taken to have you removed from the board or reprimanded for your actions.

:no: