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TBCollector
May. 4, 2007, 08:57 PM
For Immediate Release May 4, 2007
Statement from the Broussard Family, Owners of Le Samurai

It is with tremendous sadness that we announce that Le Samurai has been humanely euthanized. From the outset we have been determined to give this magnificent horse the best veterinary treatment available, but only so long as the continuation of that treatment remained consistent with Sparky's best interests. Regrettably, the veterinarians treating him have advised us that a successful outcome is not possible.

Sparky will be greatly missed by our family, Amy Tryon and everyone who knew and loved him. We wish to express our heartfelt thanks to Dr. Hunt and the veterinary staff at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute for their tireless dedication to Sparky's well-being. We also wish to thank the eventing community around the country for all the kindness and good wishes that have been extended to us and to Sparky.

Jerome and Rebecca Broussard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more information, please contact Maria Partlow, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications, at (859) 225-6941, or via e-mail at mpartlow@usef.org.


ENDS

Sannois
May. 4, 2007, 08:59 PM
How incredibly sad. My heart is breaking for Amy and his owners. I have no words. Godspeed Le Samuari. :no:

NeverTime
May. 4, 2007, 09:02 PM
This was what those on the inside have been saying would happen. The updates we were reading here and on Amy's Web site seemed so much more optimistic.
What a sad day for eventing. There are lessons to be learned from this tragedy, and I hope we're all listening.
More than anyone, my heart goes out to Robyn Fisher who rode this horse for so long and seemed to want nothing but the best for him when she made the tough decision to give him up last year. :(

mcm7780
May. 4, 2007, 09:08 PM
Rest in peace, Sparky. :(

Lori T
May. 4, 2007, 09:10 PM
How terribly sad. My condolences to all.

Mary in Area 1
May. 4, 2007, 09:10 PM
Oh dear, I kept hoping. Godspeed Sparky! Hugs to Amy, Robin and the Broussard family.

shea'smom
May. 4, 2007, 09:15 PM
I feel sick.
What a mess.

LAZ
May. 4, 2007, 09:21 PM
I am very sorry for Le Samurai and all his people. I think this would be harder than losing him at the immediate moment.

Glimmerglass
May. 4, 2007, 09:25 PM
Sad to hear and condolences to all of his connections. I'm encouraged a professional decision was conducted, albeit the hardest to make, in the best interest of the horse.

Ware Whip!
May. 4, 2007, 09:26 PM
So sad, godspeed.

Ware Whip!

phurgus
May. 4, 2007, 09:28 PM
That is so terribly sad. :cry:

I don't know what else to say....

Lori
May. 4, 2007, 09:32 PM
How sad. How very sad.

Debbie
May. 4, 2007, 09:44 PM
Godspeed Le Samurai. He was a hell of a horse. I remember helping check him into the FEI stabling at Foxhall. He was our first horse to arrive that year and I was struck by his wonderful presence.

Hugs and best wishes to all his connections - past and present.

Seven
May. 4, 2007, 09:46 PM
:( How terribly tragic. :(

My sincerest condolences to all involved.

eks
May. 4, 2007, 09:46 PM
More than anyone, my heart goes out to Robyn Fisher who rode this horse for so long and seemed to want nothing but the best for him when she made the tough decision to give him up last year. :(


How sad. As NeverTime stated, it has got to be terribly painful for Robyn. My heart goes out to her and all of those who were involved with this horse.

I just wish I could say that he didn't suffer.

retreadeventer
May. 4, 2007, 09:56 PM
Condolences and sympathies to the owner, rider, and grooms as well as former connections and families. Things always happen for the best, and I am sure that this was the right decision for the horse. May he rest in peace.

Sebastian
May. 4, 2007, 10:03 PM
Very sad day for Eventing...

My condolences to all involved with Sparky.

Seb :(

clpony
May. 4, 2007, 10:36 PM
I"m so sorry.

vineyridge
May. 4, 2007, 10:38 PM
Deepest sympathy to all connected with this magnificient competitor. God speed to green pastures.

arnika
May. 4, 2007, 10:40 PM
I feel sick.
What a mess.

Ditto. He was a horse with incredible bravery and heart.

My condolences to the Broussards, Robyn Fisher and his grooms.
At least he is no longer in pain.

citydog
May. 4, 2007, 10:41 PM
Condolences to all who cared for him.

Godspeed, Sparky.

Hollywood
May. 4, 2007, 10:47 PM
What terrible news, so very sad. My heart and condolences go out to everyone that was close to Sparky.

MNP
May. 4, 2007, 10:50 PM
I'm devastated to read this, I hope Amy and everyone are doing alright.

CookiePony
May. 4, 2007, 10:53 PM
Oh, how terribly, terribly sad. May he rest in peace. :cry:

canyonoak
May. 4, 2007, 10:54 PM
Godspeed,Sparky.

To all who loved him and cared for him--my heart goes out to you.

Petalstorm
May. 4, 2007, 11:22 PM
All I can think is that this was one hell of a horse and what a brave, brave boy with a big heart the eventing world has lost...

So terribly sad, but better to put him down then to put him through a bunch of stuff that would have prolonged the inevitable.

This situation is teaching the eventing world a lesson; when in ANY doubt, PULL UP...

God speed, good, brave, boy...

KBOW
May. 4, 2007, 11:25 PM
Godspeed Sparky - rest in painless peace.

maxxtrot
May. 4, 2007, 11:50 PM
hoping i would not read this, but all i have to say is god speed sparky. and hugs to everyone involved with this wonderful horse :(

ToucheToujour
May. 4, 2007, 11:50 PM
Rest in Peace, Sparky. :( So sad, for everyone involved from the woman on his back to the people in the crowds, from his owners to his grooms, from his former rider to the people who bred him. How very very sad.

Astraled
May. 5, 2007, 12:03 AM
My blood went cold when I read the headline. What a nightmare :(.

It's so hard to know that even with the advances made in veterinary medicine, all horses can't be saved.

Platinum Equestrian
May. 5, 2007, 12:18 AM
I just saw the update. I'm so sorry for those close to him and his loss.

GreystoneKC
May. 5, 2007, 12:19 AM
What sad, sad news. My condolences to everyone involved. Its just so so sad that we can't help all horses who need us.

I hope the grass really is greener on the other side for you, boy.

Classic Melody
May. 5, 2007, 01:02 AM
I'm so sorry for Amy and the owners and anyone else close to this horse. I've refrained from passing judgment on Amy because I believe she simply made a grave error. That said, this is terrible for the sport as a whole. Imagine if this were the Kentucky Derby. Or, say, the Preakness. It was bad enough with Barbaro, and no one faulted Edgar Prado's actions for a moment. For once we are lucky to be a sport far out of the national limelight.

luckofthedraw
May. 5, 2007, 01:14 AM
Rest in peace Sparky.

Amy...thoughts and prayers are with you and all your crew. In my mind you are and will always be one of the best horsemen i've ever met. Just know that it's easy for someone to point the finger when they weren't in your boots that day. Can't even imagine what you're going through, stay the strong person that you are and keep your chin up.

event1
May. 5, 2007, 01:16 AM
Pitiful.........What a terrible end for such a awesome and giving animal. RIP Le Samurai...

War Admiral
May. 5, 2007, 01:38 AM
This whole thing has made me sick, on so many levels.

Godspeed, le Samurai. :(

Painted Wings
May. 5, 2007, 02:14 AM
http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/78114018

Gallop on Sparky!

FalseImpression
May. 5, 2007, 02:55 AM
I saw him at Rolex too... what a magnificent animal... what a beautiful picture...
Fly on beautiful boy!!! you are no longer in pain... I have the Rolex x country dvd and I truly hesitate to watch the second dvd where I know he is!!!
R.I.P. Sparky.. it is so sad!

JSwan
May. 5, 2007, 06:41 AM
My condolences to all involved.

JenJ
May. 5, 2007, 08:39 AM
Such sad news.

I was so hoping he would have a long retirement in a nice lush pasture somewhere. Condolences to all involved.

monstrpony
May. 5, 2007, 08:42 AM
Just so sad. :cry: :cry:

ShowMeTheGlory
May. 5, 2007, 08:51 AM
ugh, this is so sad.

Auburn
May. 5, 2007, 08:52 AM
Goodbye to another horse, who gave his heart to every jump. May there always be green pastures for you, Sparky. :sadsmile: AUBURN

Claddagh
May. 5, 2007, 08:53 AM
What a devastating outcome. And all because he was a great horse, only doing what his rider asked him to do! So very, very sad. :(

Godspeed Le Samurai. RIP :cry:

Reds-n-Greys
May. 5, 2007, 08:58 AM
Godspeed Le Samurai
My heart breaks for this gallant, brave and obedient horse....

flyingchange
May. 5, 2007, 10:25 AM
This is so upsetting. I am so so sorry for all involved, especially Robyn. Rest in peace gallant, brave boy. You will never be forgotten.

FlyingChanges
May. 5, 2007, 12:02 PM
This is very sad to hear & I didn't expect it at all. :( I never even heard what was wrong with him after the incident.

R.I.P. Le Samurai....you were an amazing and beautiful horse and you gave your all!

Mardi
May. 5, 2007, 12:19 PM
My condolences to all.

God bless you, Le Samurai.

WNT
May. 5, 2007, 03:15 PM
My emotions are pretty raw right now from a lot of crap going on in the world, and this just really seemed to hit me hard. I just want to go cry now for everyone who is having crappy stuff happpen, from my little tiny inconveniences to terrible tragedies like this.

My condolences and heart go out to the Broussards, and Amy and Robyn, and those others close to Sparky.

hitchinmygetalong
May. 5, 2007, 04:44 PM
Oh dear, I'm so sorry to hear this sad news. My deepest condolences to Le Samurai's extended family.

I wish you all better days ahead. :cry:

Fred
May. 5, 2007, 05:32 PM
I'm so sorry to hear this sad news. God speed and God rest this incredible brave and honest horse, Le Samurai.

ChocoMare
May. 5, 2007, 07:36 PM
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: My heart just aches for everyone involved. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

2hsmommy
May. 5, 2007, 07:45 PM
Such tragic news.

RIP Le Samurai.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 6, 2007, 12:47 AM
RIP Sparky.

My condolences to all involved.

kt
May. 6, 2007, 09:23 PM
I feel privileged to have been able to watch him warm up for dressage on Friday, bucks and bolting and all... I'll never forget watching Amy CANTER all the way down the lane from warmup to get to the main arena (probably knowing it was the best way to get him in there safely). When he was done with his test and in first place, he didn't come out quietly on a loose rein. He came MARCHING out at a brisk trot, eyes bugging out of his head, zooming past the warmup and straight up the hill at a trot back to the barn.

I feel honored to have witnessed in person him leaving the startbox and heading home for the very last time. I will never forget that horse and his courage.

RIP Sparky. We love you.

Hoy97
May. 6, 2007, 10:04 PM
This is so very tragic. My heart goes out to everyone involved. Can anyone tell me what the actual injury was? I haven't seen it anywhere. They only said on TV that he would probably never compete again. God speed Sparky!

ivy62
May. 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
RIP LE Samurai, I saw the entire thing happen, how upsetting it was you knew he had heart to keep going and take that last jump...He is running in green pastures now....My heart goes out to everyone involved.Maybe we could start a candle group for him does anyone know how?

Divasgroom
May. 7, 2007, 09:21 AM
........tears.....(again)

Kimberlee
May. 7, 2007, 09:44 AM
RIP Sparky!

Tell them to throw in a a big oxer when you are galloping across the green pastures!

irishannie
May. 7, 2007, 09:50 AM
Oh, so very sad. I was watching on NBC and had thought what a beautiful horse he was. What was the nature of his injury?
My thoughts are with all of the people who loved this great horse.

Hidden
May. 7, 2007, 10:50 AM
OMG.. I'm so sorry for all involved. But the best decision was made for the horse to run on in greener pastures. Love to all who cared for him, he made me care for him. RIP Sparky!

Catalina
May. 7, 2007, 12:37 PM
:(

Timex
May. 7, 2007, 12:44 PM
what a shame. my condolences to all who knew him.

none of us are perfect, far from. and Amy is the only person on the back of that horse that day. no use second guessing, pointing fingers and making accusations. the only people who have any right to do that are his owners.

BBowen
May. 7, 2007, 12:48 PM
Prayers to everyone involved with Le Samurai. He had the reputation of being difficult, but he was truly a creature of beauty when everything was right. RIP, Sparky.

danosaur
May. 7, 2007, 01:56 PM
godspeed sparky. :(

starrysky
May. 7, 2007, 04:14 PM
I am horribly saddened by this news - we just have not had a good year for horse accidents with Le Samurai and Barbaro.... I wish this had a better outcome. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone involved.

Gunnar
May. 7, 2007, 05:38 PM
Godspeed to Sparky! You were a beauty!:sadsmile: My thoughts are with all who are involved. :sadsmile:

horsegirl888
May. 7, 2007, 05:44 PM
How horrible. My best wishes for all involved and prayers for Sparky. He was a great horse, absolutely amazing... :( :sadsmile:

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 05:46 PM
so sorry for the tragic loss to his owners and robin. he is now in god's hands. deepest regrets.

stfatpony
May. 7, 2007, 08:11 PM
I just came across this thread, and read bits of the other thread on the same subject. How terrible. Being in the hunter/jumper world, I knew nothing of this incident until now. I did see a bit of the taped Rolex yesterday on tv, including LeSamurai.

What were the injuries that caused him to be put down? Did he tear something or break something?

My condolences go out to all those involved.

Rockfish
May. 8, 2007, 01:38 AM
my sincerest condolences

ariaridge
May. 9, 2007, 02:30 PM
I'm so very, very sorry. This news has really taken me by surprise. How incredibly sad. My heartfelt condolences to all who were a part of Sparky's life. My thoughts and prayers are with you. RIP dear boy. :cry:

Janet
May. 9, 2007, 04:35 PM
What were the injuries that caused him to be put down? Did he tear something or break something?
I think it was described as "complete loss of the suspensory apparatus" (ligaments).

Whisper
May. 9, 2007, 05:19 PM
Sending good thoughts to his owners, Amy, Robin, and the vets who have been taking care of him since his injury (it's tough losing a patient). I was hoping he'd be able to have a good life as a pasture puff, but at least he's no longer in pain.

stfatpony
May. 9, 2007, 08:51 PM
I think it was described as "complete loss of the suspensory apparatus" (ligaments).

Thanks for answering my question, Janet.

ATGroom
May. 17, 2007, 10:00 PM
I am one of Sparky's main groom. Seeing that you are a hunter. When you are 15 seconds from the finish and going that fast. It is a little easier said than done. Until you are in that situation and know what it is like. keep opinions like that to yourself.

ATGroom
May. 17, 2007, 10:05 PM
I am one of Sparky's main grooms. I would like to thank you and all the rest for kind words. I can't explain to you the devastation we are all going through right now. It is a loss we will never over come and he will never be replaced. He meant the world to me and Amy.

cheeseburger
May. 17, 2007, 10:32 PM
I am one of Sparky's main grooms. I would like to thank you and all the rest for kind words. I can't explain to you the devastation we are all going through right now. It is a loss we will never over come and he will never be replaced. He meant the world to me and Amy.


I feel for you,... as a groom you have no control of the rider riding the horse into the ground. Very sad indeed. The whole think is just sickening to riders and horses world wide. :no:

snoopy
May. 17, 2007, 11:18 PM
I am one of Sparky's main groom. Seeing that you are a hunter. When you are 15 seconds from the finish and going that fast. It is a little easier said than done. Until you are in that situation and know what it is like. keep opinions like that to yourself.


Going that fast?!!:confused:... when the horse needed to be PUSHED back into canter...I think it would be rather easy to pull up. Since you are a groom of Amy's surely you would understand the concept that a horse finishing a 4* XC course just may be a "little tired"...I hardly saw a horse PULLING for his head. Infact I saw a rather tired and lame horse who clearly wanted to stop.

summerhorse
May. 18, 2007, 05:41 PM
Going that fast?!!:confused:... when the horse needed to be PUSHED back into canter...I think it would be rather easy to pull up. Since you are a groom of Amy's surely you would understand the concept that a horse finishing a 4* XC course just may be a "little tired"...I hardly saw a horse PULLING for his head. Infact I saw a rather tired and lame horse who clearly wanted to stop.


No kidding, the horse was begging to stop. If jockeys like Edgar Prado and Chris Antley can pull up injured TBs going at racing speed in a matter of strides then that horse could easily have been pulled up.

Beverley
May. 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
Good grief. Looks like those that can, do, and those that can't relieve their frustrations by flaming others.

The following quotes are in my opinion good illustrations of complete lack of knowledge of what a horse one is watching is doing. (Interpretation of visual information via 'wishful thinking'). Pain thresholds aside, one cannot get a horse that is 'begging to stop' to jump a fence!

There, I've said my piece, y'all keep on having your fun, I'm going riding:cool: .

Originally Posted by snoopy http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2440993#post2440993)
Going that fast?!!:confused:... when the horse needed to be PUSHED back into canter...I think it would be rather easy to pull up. Since you are a groom of Amy's surely you would understand the concept that a horse finishing a 4* XC course just may be a "little tired"...I hardly saw a horse PULLING for his head. Infact I saw a rather tired and lame horse who clearly wanted to stop.


No kidding, the horse was begging to stop. If jockeys like Edgar Prado and Chris Antley can pull up injured TBs going at racing speed in a matter of strides then that horse could easily have been pulled up.

lstevenson
May. 18, 2007, 11:12 PM
The following quotes are in my opinion good illustrations of complete lack of knowledge of what a horse one is watching is doing. (Interpretation of visual information via 'wishful thinking'). Pain thresholds aside, one cannot get a horse that is 'begging to stop' to jump a fence!



Wow, you obviously have no experience with horses with great heart. They will do what they are told to do, even if it hurts them. I have seen MANY a horse who would jump on 3 legs if asked to do so.

Are you saying you think this horse looked fine and wanted to keep going?

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 12:16 AM
Yes, I have one of those. She would keep going until she had no legs, and therefore, it's my responsibility to be extra observant for her.....

Beverley
May. 19, 2007, 01:37 AM
Wow, you obviously have no experience with horses with great heart. They will do what they are told to do, even if it hurts them. I have seen MANY a horse who would jump on 3 legs if asked to do so.

Are you saying you think this horse looked fine and wanted to keep going?

Well, you obviously missed my post on my own horse that would've jumped with a broken leg, somewhere in these zillions of threads. I have 40+ years experience with great hearted horses, I'm lucky to say.

And I am saying yes, anybody who knows what they are looking at would see that this horse, although hurt, was not 'begging to stop' which was the quote addressed in my previous post.

Looked fine, no. Wanted to keep going, yes. So which way do you want to charactize it? A horse 'begging to stop' or a horse jumping hurt because he wants to? Has to be one or the other, make up your mind.

The inability of many posters to accurately portray horse behavior aside, I continue to be amazed at the fact that so many have so little to do that they have so much time to chew on this subject. Instead of tapping at your keyboards, how many of you could be doing something meaningful for a horse in your neighborhood that is far worse off than Le Samurai? Real horsemen are out there in the real world making a difference, instead of carping in cyberspace about what the FEI or USEF or Amy Tryon or fill-in-the-blank 'ought' to be doing. Get off your duffs and go do something about the real horse abuse occurring day in and day out instead of frothing at the mouth over one competitor's bad moment.

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 01:40 AM
And you are doing the same tapping on your computer, no?

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 01:41 AM
Well said Beverley...thank you




Well, you obviously missed my post on my own horse that would've jumped with a broken leg, somewhere in these zillions of threads. I have 40+ years experience with great hearted horses, I'm lucky to say.

And I am saying yes, anybody who knows what they are looking at would see that this horse, although hurt, was not 'begging to stop' which was the quote addressed in my previous post.

Looked fine, no. Wanted to keep going, yes. So which way do you want to charactize it? A horse 'begging to stop' or a horse jumping hurt because he wants to? Has to be one or the other, make up your mind.

The inability of many posters to accurately portray horse behavior aside, I continue to be amazed at the fact that so many have so little to do that they have so much time to chew on this subject. Instead of tapping at your keyboards, how many of you could be doing something meaningful for a horse in your neighborhood that is far worse off than Le Samurai? Real horsemen are out there in the real world making a difference, instead of carping in cyberspace about what the FEI or USEF or Amy Tryon or fill-in-the-blank 'ought' to be doing. Get off your duffs and go do something about the real horse abuse occurring day in and day out instead of frothing at the mouth over one competitor's bad moment.

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 01:46 AM
Why would anyone think a horse that slows down to a trot wants to keep going - it's trying to decelerate....???? I just don't get that line of thinking?

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 01:49 AM
You know mr/mrs poop....I just noticed you were giving on-line advice to a first time 1 star rider....

WOW :eek: am I the only one concerned about arm chair coaching at that level?

Just curious


Why would anyone think a horse that slows down to a trot wants to keep going - it's trying to decelerate....???? I just don't get that line of thinking?

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 01:54 AM
So you think I've never done a three day, huh? Heee heee heeee. Think whatever you want. I saw that you were reading that post specifically so see what I wrote.... Just trying to figure out what I've done, who I know, and what I know , huh? You'd be surprised....

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 01:57 AM
Then stop the masquerade and show your face...

humbly submitted

new game: think, think, think....


So you think I've never done a three day, huh? Heee heee heeee. Think whatever you want. I saw that you were reading that post specifically so see what I wrote.... Just trying to figure out what I've done, who I know, and what I know , huh? You'd be surprised....

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 02:04 AM
You really do think you're something, clever and all - NOT IMPRESSED!

BarbB
May. 19, 2007, 02:05 AM
So you think I've never done a three day, huh? Heee heee heeee. Think whatever you want. I saw that you were reading that post specifically so see what I wrote.... Just trying to figure out what I've done, who I know, and what I know , huh? You'd be surprised....

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

lstevenson
May. 19, 2007, 02:06 AM
Then stop the masquerade and show your face...



And do we know who you are?

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 02:09 AM
Thanks, now at least the natives are awake....

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 02:12 AM
My mistake

Coal Creek's Owner

Kathryn Sullivan

Page something in last week's COTH

Cheers!


And do we know who you are?

lstevenson
May. 19, 2007, 02:20 AM
anybody who knows what they are looking at would see that this horse, although hurt, was not 'begging to stop' which was the quote addressed in my previous post.


Maybe begging is the wrong word, but I have to question your ability to "accurately portray horse behavior" if you think that this horse was not trying to stop. I think even a non-horseperson could see that this horse was being pushed on to keep going, and stopped immediately as soon as he was allowed.

And again, fwiw, I feel terrible for Amy. I think her competive drive overrode her good character for that one moment , and I think she will be forever scarred by what happened. But those who are defending her by saying things like "she didn't know he was that lame" or "she couldn't stop him in time" are NOT doing her case any favors, since anyone who saw it knows that they are not true.

Meredith Clark
May. 19, 2007, 02:39 AM
Is Coal Creek the horse I was reading about that just came off the race track 2 years ago and is already going to a test event for the Olympics?

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 02:46 AM
Meredith dear....

please, do not start slamming me, my husband, our horse or our rider of choice.

Thanks

We have watched that horse with that rider and grooming team...

We have NOTHING to financially gain...this isn't Racing for God's Sake


"think, think, think"

And be just a tiny bit respectful...okay?

Meredith Clark
May. 19, 2007, 02:49 AM
how was that question at all disrespectful? I saw that information printed in the Chronicle of the Horse and I wasn't sure if it was the same horse. How can you be offended by a true fact (if it is in fact the horse i'm thinking of). I would think you would be proud if your horse was going to the Olympics?

I think you need to relax and realize that not everyone is out to get you or Ms Tryon.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 02:57 AM
My mistake again,

I can be offended because generally the speculation is rampant and the need to attack is great...my sincere apologies :sadsmile:

Yes, that was our horse, I was there to watch, a fantastic ride, he's been competing for 2 years, off the track for 3 or so...

...hmmm relax? good idea thank you





how was that question at all disrespectful? I saw that information printed in the Chronicle of the Horse and I wasn't sure if it was the same horse. How can you be offended by a true fact (if it is in fact the horse i'm thinking of). I would think you would be proud if your horse was going to the Olympics?

I think you need to relax and realize that not everyone is out to get you or Ms Tryon.

Meredith Clark
May. 19, 2007, 03:03 AM
Its ok... I did choose to ask it in a controversial thread, but it was only in my mind because I was flipping through old COTH mags at work today and I always notice OTTBs that are doing well since I own 1 (and i'm bring a new one down to college June 1st!!).

I'm not making judgements on anyone, I just like to watch the horses :-)

Remember Ferdinand
May. 19, 2007, 03:04 AM
You know mr/mrs poop....I just noticed you were giving on-line advice to a first time 1 star rider....

WOW :eek: am I the only one concerned about arm chair coaching at that level?

Just curious

I'm going to make a comment about this logic, because I am tired of ppl using this argument to discredit those who think Amy screwed up. I am not taking sides either way, but I can say that what happened between Amy and that horse has nothing to do with Eventing or what level rider she is, or what level rider the ppl who are criticizing her are at. The horse faltered between fences. He slowed from a gallop to a trot and cross cantered over flat ground. At that point Amy was no different then me galloping a faltering horse in my pasture.

I'm not voicing what my position on this matter is, but the argument that a lot of the Amy supporters are using (on a lot of different boards)-AKA--"You don't know what your talking about because you not a Rolex level rider and you've never ridden a Grand Prix horse" is completely illogical. I think any person who has galloped on a horse has the experience to have an opinion on this matter. I think anyone who has ridden a horse that has taken a bad step has the experience to have an opinion on this matter. I'm not saying that the Amy supporters don't have a right to disagree with the people criticizing Amy, I just wish they wouldn't use the 'you're not a top level rider' agruement to do it. I hope that people will give this some thought and come to the same conclusion.

JMO.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 19, 2007, 03:13 AM
what's a ppl?


I'm going to make a comment about this logic, because I am tired of ppl using this argument to discredit those who think Amy screwed up. I am not taking sides either way, but I can say that what happened between Amy and that horse has nothing to do with Eventing or what level rider she is, or what level rider the ppl who are criticizing her are at. The horse faltered between fences. He slowed from a gallop to a trot and cross cantered over flat ground. At that point Amy was no different then me galloping a faltering horse in my pasture.

I'm not voicing what my position on this matter is, but the argument that the Amy supporters are using-AKA--"You don't know what your talking about because you not a Rolex level rider" is completely illogical. I think any person who has galloped on a horse has the experience to have an opinion on this matter. I'm not saying that the Amy supporters don't have a right to disagree with the people criticizing Amy, I just wish they wouldn't use this argument to do it. I hope that people will give it some thought and come to the same conclusion.

JMO.

Remember Ferdinand
May. 19, 2007, 03:29 AM
what's a ppl?

ppl is short for people. :) I wasn't picking on you with that post. I hope you don't think I was.

poopoo
May. 19, 2007, 11:59 AM
what's a ppl?

Not too K-A-T smart, are you?

Erin
May. 19, 2007, 04:51 PM
Not too K-A-T smart, are you?

poopoo, if you can't participate in the discussion in a respectful way, you simply won't be allowed to participate. Knock it off.

Beverley
May. 19, 2007, 11:00 PM
Maybe begging is the wrong word, but I have to question your ability to "accurately portray horse behavior" if you think that this horse was not trying to stop. I think even a non-horseperson could see that this horse was being pushed on to keep going, and stopped immediately as soon as he was allowed.

And again, fwiw, I feel terrible for Amy. I think her competive drive overrode her good character for that one moment , and I think she will be forever scarred by what happened. But those who are defending her by saying things like "she didn't know he was that lame" or "she couldn't stop him in time" are NOT doing her case any favors, since anyone who saw it knows that they are not true.

Ah, then we can agree that we question each other's ability:cool: ! Simply put, a horse that does not want to go is not going to jump a fence. I've had horses that would jump hurt (and even attempt to hide their lameness in order to keep going), and I've had horses that felt fine, and unexpectedly stopped. 2 times out of 3, these latter would manifest some soreness/lameness later in the day (two that come to mind were stifle issues). So, for what it's worth, that is my opinion, which I really never intended to give, I just remain amazed at the mob behavior by people who don't have all the facts, just speculation that they believe turns to fact if you repeat it enough times. Some other poster noted that the horse dropped down to a trot, therefore he must be trying to stop. Not so in my opinion- just trying to maintain his balance and compensate for the injury- I have had horses do that many times, for example out hunting, not when hurt thankfully, but when hitting a trappy patch of terrain for example.

Poopoo, my observation about the endless tapping at the keyboard has been perfectly demonstrated by you- since last I posted, you've got how many entries? I've meanwhile had a lovely 24 hours- worked horses twice, cleared trails, went to the Pony Express luncheon, pulled a loose shoe off a horse- dang that smacks of too much activity, time to go fetch a beer!

lstevenson
May. 19, 2007, 11:18 PM
Simply put, a horse that does not want to go is not going to jump a fence. I've had horses that would jump hurt (and even attempt to hide their lameness in order to keep going


I'm actually finding this very amusing. Do you not see the contradiction in these two statements? Do you not think that the horses that jump when hurt are doing it because they are obedient horses with heart? Or do you think they really wanted to jump the jump with all of the pain? If their had been no rider on the horses back, don't you think the horse would have stopped right away, or at least gone around the jump as he slowed up?

How can you say "a horse that does not want to go is not going to jump a fence."?? This statement I find ludicris. Unwilling horses are pushed over fences all of the time.

When an honest, obedient horse "does not want to go" because he is hurt or exhausted and the rider pushes him on, he will jump! Just because he jumps does not mean he wanted to jump, but that he wanted to please.

As I have said before, when the rider can be seen pushing the horse, driving forward with leg, seat, and whip, you can bet the horse WOULD HAVE LIKED to stop. But he was an honest, obedient horse with heart who knew his job.

eventrider
May. 19, 2007, 11:58 PM
I have one possible OT question about the incident. Did Amy actually use the whip on Le samurai after the injury occured? This may have been answered somewhere else, but I can't watch the video myself to find out. Thanks!

Equa
May. 20, 2007, 08:22 AM
No, she just kind of clucked him and leant forward and encouraged him, and pushed her hnds up his neck a bit, and he responded...an instant respnseon both their parts I expect she'll regret forever.

Beverley
May. 20, 2007, 08:50 PM
Lstevenson, no, there is no contradiction in the two statements. A horse that wants to jump, hurt or not, will jump. A horse that does not want to jump, hurt or not, will not. Variation on the theme, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. How one gets a horse to want to do what one asks (except of course for drinking water:cool: ) is of course a training issue, but that is beside the point here. I'm assuming you didn't really mean to imply that unwilling horses can 'always' be made to jump, or that disobedience and dishonesty are the only reasons for refusals.

Getting back on point, your latest post demonstrates exactly the reason I passed through this thread. You, and many others, have taken a small bit of evidence- a video snippet- and interpreted into it all sorts of 'facts' that simply are not there. To be sure, that's human nature to some extent, but the resulting holier-than-thou judgments and castigations serve no useful purpose (other than the usual swapping of insults that seems to be the favorite sport on these boards). None of us has all the facts, and we aren't entitled to them, the FEI is. On the whole, the meanness and pettiness expressed in many of these posts reflects pretty poorly on the BB community.

I have no clue as to whether Amy Tryon is a nice person or not, I do know I've admired her ability to ride some complicated horses. I suspect I'm much meaner than she is- I'd be harvesting some of the posts hereabouts and going after people for libel.:yes:

There, you'll be happy to know I'm done with this thread!

ivy62
May. 20, 2007, 09:24 PM
Beverly, I was there and saw it first hand..It was quite obvious that he was off long enough before the jump to stop or at least miss the jump. The enitire crowd was screaming to stop....This was one part of Rolex this year I am sorry I saw up close and personal...
I agree that if you did not see it first hand it would be difficult to judge but some of us were there......She should have stopped her horse.....

lstevenson
May. 20, 2007, 10:43 PM
A horse that does not want to jump, hurt or not, will not.

Where is the head banging against the wall icon?

It happens every day. A horse doesn't want to jump, but he is encouraged or forced over by the rider. Since you seem to need an example, here goes. Horse looks at the ditch, and is scared to death and wants no part of it. The rider goes to voice, leg, spur, and whip, and the horse realizes that he had better go over it even if he DOESN'T WANT TO. Can you tell me that just because the horse went over the ditch that he WANTED TO? This is an extreme example of what happens all of the time. Horses are very generous creatures who usually love to please us. Sometimes they do what we want them to do EVEN IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. I would think any experienced horse person would know that.




Getting back on point, your latest post demonstrates exactly the reason I passed through this thread. You, and many others, have taken a small bit of evidence- a video snippet- and interpreted into it all sorts of 'facts' that simply are not there.



Wrong again. I was there when it happened. I do know the facts of the situation. From the look of it, much more than you do.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 21, 2007, 01:17 AM
PPL aside ( I am actually quite short) :winkgrin: ...your reference to Amy's supporters

Four star riders make mistakes, Todd Trewin was laid out as an example, I believe Lucinda Green has stood in these shoes, Bruce Davidson, Jim Wofford, Mark Phillips, Karen and David O? Don't know if all of these horsemen and women have been in these shoes, but I would venture to guess that many have…do we really need a roll call?

3 star riders make mistakes, organizers make mistakes (hmmm a horse bled out at Badminton because of a wood flag pole?) 2 star riders make mistakes, Trainers make mistakes; Training level riders make mistakes (Christopher Reeves was extremely honest in his book) Novice Riders make mistakes, BN riders make mistakes.

Can any of us look in the mirror and not say "I did the wrong thing?"

Have you ever had a horse in the game? (i have a training/prelim horse who is very in the game)

the people that know Amy personally have watched the attention to detail she gives to each individual horse, the "in the moment" decision at Rolex? couldn't tell you.

The vet report hasn't changed though...."galloping injury, last fence did not alter the outcome, that type of injury did not necessarily lend itself to inscruciating pain"

And, at the risk of being crucified:

Wasn't on that horse, in that moment, with those thoughts, riding that ride.

Thanks, Kathryn




I'm going to make a comment about this logic, because I am tired of ppl using this argument to discredit those who think Amy screwed up. I am not taking sides either way, but I can say that what happened between Amy and that horse has nothing to do with Eventing or what level rider she is, or what level rider the ppl who are criticizing her are at. The horse faltered between fences. He slowed from a gallop to a trot and cross cantered over flat ground. At that point Amy was no different then me galloping a faltering horse in my pasture.

I'm not voicing what my position on this matter is, but the argument that a lot of the Amy supporters are using (on a lot of different boards)-AKA--"You don't know what your talking about because you not a Rolex level rider and you've never ridden a Grand Prix horse" is completely illogical. I think any person who has galloped on a horse has the experience to have an opinion on this matter. I think anyone who has ridden a horse that has taken a bad step has the experience to have an opinion on this matter. I'm not saying that the Amy supporters don't have a right to disagree with the people criticizing Amy, I just wish they wouldn't use the 'you're not a top level rider' agruement to do it. I hope that people will give this some thought and come to the same conclusion.

JMO.

Evalee Hunter
May. 21, 2007, 01:18 PM
. . . . The vet report hasn't changed though...."galloping injury, last fence did not alter the outcome, that type of injury did not necessarily lend itself to inscruciating pain" . . . .

Well, I certainly hope that is NOT what the vet report says. If it is what the vet report says, then the vet is mighty uneducated. The word is EXcruciating pain. Totally different from "inscruciating" (actually, I have never heard that word, don't think it even is a word).

I am pretty first hand familiar with horses with suspensory injuries. Most of them do act as if they are in great pain, although I don't know if they actually are ... all I know is how they act.

Seven
May. 21, 2007, 01:24 PM
There's also no way for a vet to conclusively state that the last fence did not alter the outcome. That would be a completely inappropriate and unprofessional conclusion.

And Thanks, Evalee....I had no idea what "inscruciating" meant and was nearly going to go look it up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

KellyS
May. 21, 2007, 01:59 PM
And I think anyone who believes that a ligament injury does not cause excruciating pain should have to run around and jump on an ankle with a torn ligament.

I tore a ligament in my ankle last summer and it was the worst pain (other than kidney stones) that I've ever indured. We will never know how severe the pain was for LS, but to justify Amy's decision by saying the horse wasn't in excruciating pain is, in my mind, a poor excuse for not pulling up.

If there is any doubt about the amount of pain a horse is in, then you HAVE to give them the benefit of the doubt and stop. We have such responsibility in protecting the horses under our care--their safety and welfare should always come first, not matter how minor a lameness issue is perceived.

And I'm surprised at the vet report--if that is truly what the vet stated, then it sounds very unprofessional. I am also surprised that one of Amy's clients (Sofie) would even post this type of information on the Internet before it's been officially released (or if it ever gets officially released).

Sandy M
May. 21, 2007, 02:39 PM
Well, I certainly hope that is NOT what the vet report says. If it is what the vet report says, then the vet is mighty uneducated. The word is EXcruciating pain. Totally different from "inscruciating" (actually, I have never heard that word, don't think it even is a word).

I am pretty first hand familiar with horses with suspensory injuries. Most of them do act as if they are in great pain, although I don't know if they actually are ... all I know is how they act.


I agree, but I think it may be a matter of degree. My horse has twice had MINOR suspensory injuries. In each case, I only felt the slight irregularity in gait if I let him trot on a loose rein, either under saddle or on the lunge. If I held him together and balanced him, you could not see (and I could not feel) any lameness. But he WAS lame - and horses (usually) don't limp if they are NOT in pain (I've never met any of those "fakers" people talk about, although I do know of one horse that recovered from a fracture (knee) and limped - presumably out of "habit" - for quite a while, but would go sound if ridden up hill or over ground poles.) Ergo, I'd have to think that a total rupture of the entire suspensory apparatus would, indeed, be quite painful, though the adrenaline factor may mitigate in a situation such as is being discussed. Also, the prey animal instinct may be a factor: lame horses often instinctively try to hide lameness -they don't want to show weakness, be the one "picked off," etc. Still, a catastrophic injury to a highly trained horse in a competitive setting - I don't know whether "instinct" argument applies or not, as compared with a moderately lame horse in a herd situation trying to hide an injury.

[I'm not arguing either side. I wasn't there. I haven't seen the since-removed YouTube video. Only saw the NBC coverage, heard Wofford's, "She's in trouble" comment, and the approach to the last fence, where there was slight gait irregularity, but the snippet was too quick to make a fair judment. My tendency is to say that I would have pulled up if I felt the slightest irregularity,if only to check (and I did once when my horse "climbed" a fence on x-c [prelim] and fell to his knees on landing. He was okay when I checked and we continued and took our time faults), but I wasn't on AT's horse. I await the FEI verdict. Rationality tells me that there would seem to be no point to continuing on to the last fence simply to finish since the horse would be unlikely to vet for stadium... but again, I wasn't there.]

canyonoak
May. 21, 2007, 02:41 PM
deleted.

the prejudice and bias and ignorance on this thread and others remains stunning in its totality.

I would give Amy Tryon any of my horses any day any time.

lstevenson
May. 21, 2007, 02:45 PM
I am pretty first hand familiar with horses with suspensory injuries. Most of them do act as if they are in great pain, although I don't know if they actually are ... all I know is how they act.


What fakers! :winkgrin:





I believe Lucinda Green has stood in these shoes, Bruce Davidson, Jim Wofford, Mark Phillips, Karen and David O?


As far as I know none of these riders except for Mark Phillips has ever been in a situation where what he did would be considered abuse.

PhoenixFarm
May. 21, 2007, 04:27 PM
As far as I know none of these riders except for Mark Phillips has ever been in a situation where what he did would be considered abuse.

While I don't believe actions are justified by other actions, and without taking a stand on the incident in question, I will say between my husband and myself we have 60 plus years combined of experience on the front side and back side of this sport, and if you think AT is the only person who has made a terrible mistake or shown poor judgement, then you are kidding yourselves.

Many of the people who are now held up as beacons of horsemanship learned the hard way about putting the horse first. Many of them did have youthful indiscretions or moments of competitiveness for which a horse paid the price. Many of them are still haunted by what they did. Many of them became the great horsemen they are today because of one moment of incredibly bad judgement. What they had in their favor was that these things happened in a time or place where there was no TV coverage, no jumbotrons, no internet, no youtube, etc.

I ask you, when it comes down to brass tacks, is it any more right or wrong to have 30 seconds of apperently rash judgement on a horse's condition, or to canter a horse into show jumping knowing it has a suspensory tear, that you got through the jog by icing the cr@p out of it so it couldn't feel anything below the knee, knowing that round will effectively end the horse's career and soundness? And if you don't think that has happened, then again, I say you are fooling yourselves.

Somone asked on another thread why other riders have been silent. My belief is because as much as they may be upset by what happenend, a great many of them feel their hands are not quite clean enough to cast stones (way to mix a metaphor, huh?). And a great many more understand how it could have happened.

This is a terrible tragedy for EVERYONE involved. My belief and hope though is that it will help educate the entire evenitng community for the betterment of horses from BN to advanced.

LLDM
May. 21, 2007, 05:48 PM
Somone asked on another thread why other riders have been silent. My belief is because as much as they may be upset by what happenend, a great many of them feel their hands are not quite clean enough to cast stones (way to mix a metaphor, huh?). And a great many more understand how it could have happened.


Unfortunately, I believe you. And yes, I think it goes far beyond Amy, and far beyond eventing for that matter. So, now that the curtain has been ripped back - on the jumbotron, Youtube and the frame-by-frame NBC downloaded complete coverage - Now what do we DO?

Because, in case anyone has failed to notice, this is not going away. Maybe it's time for all these top of the sport types to speak up and speak the truth.

Honestly, when George Morris said, "It's NEVER right to lose your temper with a horse. I've done it, you've done it and it is ALWAYS WRONG!" I've never had more respect for him. (and yes, I saw him do so in person some years back) Maybe he doesn't care anymore, maybe he has nothing left to lose - but last time I looked he was coaching our show jumping team.

Where, by the way, is all this written? I KNOW people get warnings, get carded, get slapped on the wrist. But what good does it do if there is no public record? I know it lives somewhere in the bowels of the USEF - it's in the rules.

Thank you PheonixFarm - 'cause I am so damned sick of the silence I could scream. It's not the truth that makes me want to run screaming from eventing, hell from horse sports in general, it's the silence. If these riders are so brave, then speak up! If the USEA and USEF are so concerned about the welfare of the horse, then be honest - yes, you can break your horse doing this! Heck, you can break yourself too. How about let's talk about how NOT TO DO SO.

Maybe the answer to "why Amy didn't stop" is that "ppl" have done it before and weren't suspended, so she obviously hadn't crossed that line. And if that is the case, then I am sorry if she ends up paying for the sins of those who "got away with it". Maybe she will be the example that forces change. Heck, there are Pros still in business that have done far worse.

I am guilty too. I HAVE screw up and HURT my horse doing something stupid, egotistical and selfish. It changed my life. I was SO VERY fortunate that I did no permanent damage to my horse. I was alone schooling XC (very dumb to start) and did not listen to my horse, who was far smarter than I was. I insisted when he told me it was not safe. He saved my sorry ass and it tore him up good. It was 28 years ago and I was 17. The ONLY difference between me and most is that I TELL that story to this day - to any one who will listen.

Yes, we will all cross the line. Unfortunately it is the way we learn where the line is. But what seems to be missing these days is the idea that when you cross it ALL HOLY HELL will reign down upon your sorry butt the moment it happens. And in my humble opinion, we need to get that back. And it won't happen with silence.

SCFarm

flutie1
May. 21, 2007, 06:04 PM
Isn't it time to put this thread to bed? The whole matter is ultimately in the hands of the FEI judicial group who will decide Amy's fate. Whatever the outcome, she will have to live with it. What the casual observors and second guessers may believe - or not believe - will in the long run not make one bit of difference. Can't everyone let it go with dignity and get on with life?

ravenclaw
May. 21, 2007, 06:46 PM
Isn't it time to put this thread to bed? The whole matter is ultimately in the hands of the FEI judicial group who will decide Amy's fate. Whatever the outcome, she will have to live with it. What the casual observors and second guessers may believe - or not believe - will in the long run not make one bit of difference. Can't everyone let it go with dignity and get on with life?

Agreed. I haven't been on these boards since Thursday, and I was surprised to see today that there are two threads about Amy Tryon that are still going strong. Seriously, can't you folks find a new topic to argue about? I think this one is cooked all the way through! :p

Mae Farm
May. 24, 2007, 12:51 AM
Deepest sympathies to the owners of this horse and to the people who cared for him.

I am sure AT will be devastated, but hope that she has learned that winning is not the be all and end all of everything if it costs the health and eventually the life of a fine animal.

TexasTB
May. 24, 2007, 01:27 AM
Deepest sympathies to the owners of this horse and to the people who cared for him.

I am sure AT will be devastated, but hope that she has learned that winning is not the be all and end all of everything if it costs the health and eventually the life of a fine animal.


Since when does AT put winning before the welfare of her horse??
Did she not withdraw Poggio last year before XC last year, after their best dressage ride to date, which would have put them into contention for winning it?
And since when does going clear cross country garuntee you that you'll win it on Sunday?

Okay, i'm done commenting on this, but the comment that she "puts winning above everything else" just struck a nerve with me
Alright, carry on Amy haters, its apparent nothing will change your mind, so have fun attacking her like rabid dogs.

TexasTB
May. 24, 2007, 05:27 AM
Mae Farm- I just read my post and realized it sounded a bit snarky toward you, which i did not intend. Its directed at the general idea that Amy willingly injured her horse for competitive gain, not at your post specifically.

shea'smom
May. 24, 2007, 06:13 AM
I think the reason this hasn't "died", is because people are still learning and discussing it, sorta why we come here in the first place. There are two interesting posts on this page alone.
I will add, at the Eventing Rally I coached at last weekend, three times this subject came up. The kids are learning from this, folks. None of them are condemning Amy and all were much more aware of watching for that first sign of something wrong with their horses.

monstrpony
May. 24, 2007, 09:54 AM
I think the reason this hasn't "died", is because people are still learning and discussing it, sorta why we come here in the first place. There are two interesting posts on this page alone.
I will add, at the Eventing Rally I coached at last weekend, three times this subject came up. The kids are learning from this, folks. None of them are condemning Amy and all were much more aware of watching for that first sign of something wrong with their horses.

Thanks for posting this. I think it's important to know that this is having a positive impact on young riders.

I suppose it could be that the big names haven't come out and said anything simply because they're waiting until they have the facts to discuss. They don't have the facts because the FEI has asked the people who DO know what actually happened, not to discuss it until they (the FEI) have rendered their judgement.

Sounds pretty wise to me.

LLDM
May. 24, 2007, 10:26 AM
Curious here as to what kind of facts we are talking about. If you look at the FEI Tribunal decisions, they don't really lay out "the facts", just the ruling.

They do not have (I am pretty sure) any standing to require any non-FEI member to refrain from discussing the case. They may have suggested it, but it is not a rule that I have found. I do not believe the FEI ever makes their deliberations public.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee any official disclosure coming about after the ruling. Especially if the ruling is disputed and goes to CAS. Even after a CAS ruling, I will be very surprised if any official body does as much as a recap of the "facts".

Whether or not anyone directly involves speaks up once it is resolved via the FEI remains to be seen. However we do have an official FEI "clarification" of eventing rules already.

http://www.horsesport.org/news_center/archive/archive.htm?vID=1697&sub=pressnews&active=pressnews1&body1=&optype=&body2=&day1=&month1=&year1=&day2=&month2=&year2=



23/05/2007
Eventing Rules Clarifications as of 1st May 2007

The following modifications are proposed to the rules for immediate implementation:

• Stopping rider on course – Dangerous Riding
The Committee considers that the procedures to stop a rider on the Cross Country must be improved and adds an additional paragraph on Dangerous Riding.

Art. 519.3 Dangerous Riding - Add new paragraph:
“The President of the Ground Jury may designate an Official (i.e. TD, Chief Steward) prior to the event to stop a rider on course for dangerous riding.”
Organising Committee will be reminded that a red flag must be provided at each fence.

• Control Communication
The Committee considers that control communication must be in English at all Championships/Games level in order to avoid languages’ misunderstanding amplified by situation of stress. A clarification will be added to the FEI Eventing Memorandum.

• Presence of Course Designer for Cross Country test
The rules to include an Article of the compulsory presence of the Course Designer for the Cross Country test, the reason being the responsibility should an incident happen during the event.

Art. 550 Appointment of Officials - add new paragraph 9:
“9. Course Designer:
The Course Designer must be present during the Event’s Cross Country test he is responsible for. If for any serious reason, the appointed Course Designer cannot be present, a qualified CD of at least “Candidate” status, familiar with the course can be appointed to replace him/her.”

• Qualifications’ requirements at Regional Multi Sport Games of CIC level
The Eventing Committee recommends that FEI qualifications’ requirements are introduced for lower level competitions at Multi Sport Games. Currently qualification for CIC 1* is up to NF certification.

Art. 506 Qualification of Competitors & Horses – add to table:
“7.3. Championship/Games CIC 1*
To be duly qualified to participate at CIC 1* Championships or Games, the competitors must achieve at least 2 qualifying results (1 must be CIC 12 months prior to the competition).”

• Measuring top spreads of Cross Country fences
A diagram be added (in Annex 3 of 2006 Eventing Rules) as reference to Art 531.6.1 Measurement, providing a clarification & explanation on measurements for top spreads of Cross Country fences to avoid any misinterpretation. (will be posted on the web-site)

• Jumping Test - Safety Cups

Art 537.4 Course – Obstacles, type of obstacles – reword 4th sentence:
“FEI approved safety cups are recommended, if used they should only be of 20mm.”

• Conflict of interest – Eventing Officials

It has been agreed that the following updated version will serve as directive as from 1st May 2007 until the next Eventing Rules Revision

“All levels of Eventing Championships: For all categories of FEI Officials (Judge/ TD/Course Designers/Veterinarians) no conflict of interest is allowed– e.g. close relative to a competitor or owner, trainer or coach to a horse or competitor. Course walks open to all competitors are encouraged, but those restricted to own pupils are not allowed.
3*/4* Level events: For FEI Judges and TDs, conflict of interest is not allowed; family, trainer, coaching, owner relation. For Course Designers, the following conflict of interest is not acceptable family, trainer, owner relation.
Course walks for own competitors are not allowed (however open course walks are encouraged) for all FEI Officials.
1*/2* level events: As of arrival on the competition grounds, Officials cannot have any conflict of interest as per above. Special consideration may be given, providing the conflict is declared in advance to the FEI Secretary General who may allow it in his discretion.
Coaching or training must be avoided after arriving at the competition grounds, unless in special circumstances permission has been given by the FEI Secretary General.
For all FEI Officials Course walks for own competitors are not allowed (however open course walks are encouraged).
Note: Coaching includes the walking of courses, the warming up of competitors for dressage or jumping on the flat.”

EVENTING RULES CLARIFICATIONS FOR 2007

• Black Flag Alternative Diagram
A new diagram be added to the rules (in Annex 3 of 2006 Eventing Rules) to clarify black flag alternative fences combination (will be posted on the web-site).

• Spurs
Dressage Test The Eventing Committee has considered the request to allow spurs plastic shanks and metal knob for the Dressage test. The Committee proposes to update this rule to include the spurs with round hard metal knobs as they do not wound the horse, to avoid riders being eliminated on ground for using these spurs.

Art 521.3 Dress, Spurs – add following sentence:
“Metal or plastic spurs with round hard plastic or metal knobs are allowed.”
Jumping test - Rowels’ Spurs: Spurs for the Jumping Test: The issue of rowels’ spurs for the Jumping test was also raised. The Eventing Committee agreed that the spurs in the Jumping test should be in accordance with the Rules for Jumping.

Art. 521.7.3 Dress, Jumping Test– 2nd sentence: to reword:
“Spurs are optional; if used they must be in accordance with the Rules for Jumping.”

• Appointment of Judges
Further to several NFs’ requests of information, the Committee proposes to clarify that Status of Judges give the position on the Ground Jury for lower events, as follows:
Art. 550 Appointment of Officials - add new paragraph 10:
“10. Appointment of Judges
The FEI Judge (“I” or “C”) must be appointed as President of the Ground Jury if there is a national Judge as second Judge.
If there is an “I” Judge appointed for an event, he should be recommended as President over the “C” Judge.”

• Restriction on number of categories per event per TD
The version presented in November 2006 has been updated:
Art. 550 Appointment of Officials - add new paragraph 9:
“9. Number of TDs per event
One TD can officiate at maximum 2 categories per event. If one or two additional categories are included, 1 additional TD must be appointed. Should 5 categories be organized at the same event, 2 additional TDs must be appointed. The status of additional TDs must be in accordance with the level of categories organized.”



SCFarm

pwynnnorman
May. 24, 2007, 01:15 PM
Have those actually been passed, LLDM? This one in particular seems a bit tough to accomodate--so much so that the exception (having a qualified CD replace the designer) might become more common than the rule:

Presence of Course Designer for Cross Country test
The rules to include an Article of the compulsory presence of the Course Designer for the Cross Country test, the reason being the responsibility should an incident happen during the event.

event1
May. 24, 2007, 01:37 PM
:( PheonixFarm-Your post is well written and I think there some great points to it BUT the words "youthful indescretions" in my mind-made the whole argument not applicable to Amy Tryon. This incident did not happen in her forming years of inexperienced riding-it happened at the 4 star level which is an EXTREMELY public forum. I am sure that many of todays best riders have gotten where they are by making some bad decisions and having lapses of judgement along the way-but Amy Tryon is THERE....at the top of the sport. Had she been a young rider at Rolex this year-the whole incident would be alot more understandable. Because millions of people were either there or have seen the video...and based on the fact that Amy Tryon is one of our top riders, the outcome of the FEI ruling will be pivitol in the message that is conveyed to both young people coming up in the sport and also to those riders that you speak of that maybe have taken a risk with their horses well being-and have gotten away with it. If all of this is going on behind the curtain in eventing-then I say it is high time for the hammer to drop in the name of protecting these horses that give us so much. If nothing is done about this incident that was seen by so many-eventing in my mind has hit an ALL TIME LOW.....

PhoenixFarm
May. 24, 2007, 03:20 PM
event1--some of the incidences I refrence took place when now top competitors were newbies . . . but some had long since gained their pink coat. I don't believe knowing is one time, youth-linked deal, I believe we are all learning, growing and maturing at all times. In fact, it is the perpetual student fact of life with horses that has always appealed to me so much. But I watch what happens after such an incident to decide what I think of the person. Think of it as a "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice" type of thing. There are some people in this sport I wouldn't let touch my horse with a thousand foot pole, because they haven't learned anything from their past mistakes. Or, they view it as "the cost of doing business" or "collatorel damage." There are some I would give my horse to in a heartbeat, because i know that they learned the hard way to put the horse first and I know because of that they have become exemplary caretakers of these wonderful creatures.

And LLDM, in a wierd way your first post to me here sort of makes a point I was trying to make, but from the other side.

My basic belief is that any horsperson who says they haven't made a mistake for which a horse paid the price mentally or physically, either hasn't had horses very long, or is lying. Because we all have done something that to this day makes us sick in the pit of our stomach. Something we are ashamed of, and that we feel sick about. But when you caused a horse to be injured, and it wasn't done in the glare of the media and public, nobody called for your horses to be yanked away from you. Nobody said you should be banned for life and horse ownership for all time. Nobody said you should never ride or own horses again.

So I guess I don't understand why this particular person has brought out this degree of rage and ire. If you disagree vehmently with her decision that's one thing. But then, disagree with the decision no matter who makes it. If a 19 year old kid at their first Rolex made the same decision, then the people here that are so angry should be EQUALLY angry--if it's truly the decision that you disagree with.

As I said on another thread, no one, I don't care who you are, or how long you've ridden, or at what level, can know for a fact that they would make a different decision in that exact same circumstance. We can all fervently hope and pray that we make a different decision. But we can't KNOW. I spend every day of my professional life doing everything I can to protect and care for my horses, and those that others have placed in my care. I spend a huge amount of mental energy trying to avoid bad decisions and not make mistakes that the horses will pay for. But I can't promise anyone, least of all myself, that I will never make a bad decision about a horse ever again. Things like this incident keep me up at night. I live in terror and horror of them. Because while I think and I hope I would do something different, I don't know what I would do, given the same circumstance.

And maybe in that place of fear, for me, this incident becomes a teachable moment. That it helps me, and perhap others think about potential calamity in a different way that may help us avoid the same thing in the future.

I also wanted to make an observation, vis a vis the argument about whether or not she hit the horse and forced him on or he carried himself across the finish line.

Some of you may recal that some years ago a horse died on course at Fair Hil CCI***. That horse had had, I believe, an anyeursm or perhaps a cardiac event, I do't remember. There was a gentleman, a horse person, but someone who had never before attended an event or knew much of anything about eventing, who had the misfortune to arrive on the grounds, walk up to a fence near the end of the course, and moments later have this horse more or less drop dead at his feet.

He was so distraught, that he began to pursue a variety of legal actions against the rider and the venue. He started a PR campaign of sorts to get this rider banned for life, to "get eventing", etc. Among his claims, were that the rider had whipped the horse repeatedly as it was dying, that the vets took more than 25 minutes to attend the dying animal, that the horse ambulance to 40 minutes to get him, and that the rider had more or less ridden a dying horse in to the ground.

There was a videotape that day too. It showed, when reviewed by a then AHSA hearing committee, that the rider never once touched the horse with the whip, that there were two vets on scene in less than 5 minutes, and that the horse was loaded into the ambulance an off the course in less that 20 minutes.

This person, even upon viewing the video in the hearing, still claimed that their initial impression of events were correct. I believe he even made accusation that the tape had been doctored. Despite what a roomful of impartial strangers saw on the video, this person still saw a horse being abused, literally, to death.

My point with this tale, is that to many people that wacth the video they see clearly a horse being ridden in to the ground, forced to continue, hit, etc. Others see a horse that isn't quite right, but is continuing to his job. But the point is that people will still see what they want to see, even on something as supposedly incontrovertible as video.

Finaly, and this is also to LLDM, as far as disclosure after after the FEI ruling, I actually think the precedent for disclosure post ruling is pretty good. The FEI usually makes a statement explaining their ruling, with key parts of the person's testamony being synposized. Also, once the hearing is over, most riders do make a statement or grant an interview, giving their side of the story. Now, I grant you, the cases I'm familiar with are largely doping cases, and the rider'smessage is usually somethng along the lines of, "I trusted my vet to to use a skin cream that hod no illegal substances and he didn't, and that was ur mistake, and yes, we have been found guilty but I wasn't trying to intentionally drug my horse, etc. etc. "

But, as much as I am no fan of the FEI, I expect to have a pretty good feeling for the facts (as much as they can be determined, which is a whole 'nother issue) of the case after they rule, and all the parties get to speak out.

lstevenson
May. 24, 2007, 03:35 PM
My basic belief is that any horsperson who says they haven't made a mistake for which a horse paid the price mentally or physically, either hasn't had horses very long, or is lying. Because we all have done something that to this day makes us sick in the pit of our stomach. Something we are ashamed of, and that we feel sick about. But when you caused a horse to be injured, and it wasn't done in the glare of the media and public, nobody called for your horses to be yanked away from you. Nobody said you should be banned for life and horse ownership for all time. Nobody said you should never ride or own horses again.



But see, there is a big difference between making a mistake that injures your horse, and keeping going after the horse is injured.

IOW, maybe the mistake Amy made was pushing the horse on excessively towards the end of the course even though he was obviously tired. And maybe that's what caused him to break down. That is comparable to the things you are talking about. And if she had stopped right away, I don't think many would be on her case for pushing him until he broke down. Most would probably say that was an unfortunate mistake. Just like when the rider makes a huge error at a x-c jump, and the horse falls and dies. Most people only feel sorry for the rider in this case because it was an accident.

It's the fact that SHE KEPT GOING after he broke down that is the issue here.

JAM
May. 24, 2007, 04:13 PM
So I guess I don't understand why this particular person has brought out this degree of rage and ire. If you disagree vehmently with her decision that's one thing. But then, disagree with the decision no matter who makes it. If a 19 year old kid at their first Rolex made the same decision, then the people here that are so angry should be EQUALLY angry--if it's truly the decision that you disagree with.


Phoenix--you and I agree 99% if not more of the time, but this is one where we do disagree, or at least I can understand the other point of view. I don't think it's this particular person who's brought out this degree of rage, but a combination of the person's status and reaction. If one assumes that the rider made a bad and, in this case, perhaps fatal decision (not asking anyone to agree or disagree, just assume it for the sake of argument), then I can see why it makes a difference whether the decision is made by someone at the pinnacle of the sport/profession, someone doing her first ****, or someone doing baby novice. People at the top of their sport/profession are presumed to have (and I'm sure do have) considerably more knowledge, and for that reason and others (e.g., this rider is a representative of our country), are held to a higher standard of care and judgment. [I remember a brouhaha several years ago when the pro basketball player, Charles Barkley, did or said something wrong, there was a hue and cry against it -- set a bad example for the kids, and he responded by saying that he never asked to be a role model; the general though not unanimous response was that by accepting the fame and fortune benefits of being a pro player, he did assume extra responsibilities, like it or not.] The point is that many people, rightly or wrongly, are more willing to forgive a 19 year old kid riding at her first Rolex than someone who's been there and done that many times (on behalf of our country, no less), precisely because she's been there and done that and so should be exercising greater tact and judgment.

And I also think that a large part of the ire and rage stems from the reaction or perceived lack of it and, thus, the perceived lack of acceptance of any responsibility or remorse. Perhaps the rider does feel remorse and responsibility, but it's never been expressed. And perhaps the FEI has issued a binding "order" to the rider not to say anything. But there are still publicly issued statements that have been made on her behalf -- and that have never been retracted or clarified -- that seem to indicate no acceptance of responsibility (indeed, the "locking on to the jump" hypothesis could be read to suggest that the speaker believed the rider made the right decision).

LLDM
May. 24, 2007, 06:12 PM
PhoenixFarm - Thanks for your reply. I think we are finally starting to get to some of the real issues here. I will try to answer you, at least a little, from my point of veiw.


And LLDM, in a wierd way your first post to me here sort of makes a point I was trying to make, but from the other side.

My basic belief is that any horsperson who says they haven't made a mistake for which a horse paid the price mentally or physically, either hasn't had horses very long, or is lying. Because we all have done something that to this day makes us sick in the pit of our stomach. Something we are ashamed of, and that we feel sick about. But when you caused a horse to be injured, and it wasn't done in the glare of the media and public, nobody called for your horses to be yanked away from you. Nobody said you should be banned for life and horse ownership for all time. Nobody said you should never ride or own horses again.

Had anyone seen what I did that day, I expect (in that era, circa '70s) I would have been A) Stopped before I went too far, B) Been ostracized by my betters and my peers, C) been at least threatened with being kicked out of my Pony Club and D) Likely told I didn't deserve to own my horse, or any other. Honestly, maybe none of that would have happened - However, I believed it would have happened, and I believe it would have been deserved. And because I believed it so much, I behaved as if all that happened. I left eventing, and most competition, did everything but sell my horse (almost did) and tried to learn from my self imposed exile. Have I screwed up since then? Of course I have - but never again like that.


So I guess I don't understand why this particular person has brought out this degree of rage and ire. If you disagree vehmently with her decision that's one thing. But then, disagree with the decision no matter who makes it. If a 19 year old kid at their first Rolex made the same decision, then the people here that are so angry should be EQUALLY angry--if it's truly the decision that you disagree with.

Almost, but not really EQUALLY. Because, where people are so gobsmacked is that they don't understand how someone can get to that level, that age, with that experience and NOT already have that fear you describe. How she could simply "hope" it wasn't that bad. Because if she can still screw up like that, then so can everyone - unless, being such a BNR somehow blinded her to the obvious. In which case, all us NON-BNRs don't have to worry so much, as we don't have that kind of pressure, nothing like that distracting us from our horse's well being. Because if you don't believe that, how do you throw your leg over a horse ever again?


As I said on another thread, no one, I don't care who you are, or how long you've ridden, or at what level, can know for a fact that they would make a different decision in that exact same circumstance. We can all fervently hope and pray that we make a different decision. But we can't KNOW. I spend every day of my professional life doing everything I can to protect and care for my horses, and those that others have placed in my care. I spend a huge amount of mental energy trying to avoid bad decisions and not make mistakes that the horses will pay for. But I can't promise anyone, least of all myself, that I will never make a bad decision about a horse ever again. Things like this incident keep me up at night. I live in terror and horror of them. Because while I think and I hope I would do something different, I don't know what I would do, given the same circumstance.

Yes, the fear and horror of screwing up and hurting one's horse. It is important. It's that thing that keeps us "always on", trying to be one step ahead of disaster and heading it off at the pass. No, we can't KNOW we won't screw up. But if we don't believe that we can keep them as safe as humanly possible - at least safer than on the "free" in the state of nature, then we wouldn't be able to do it at all. There are lots of things we can't KNOW, but we believe. That's how life works.


And maybe in that place of fear, for me, this incident becomes a teachable moment. That it helps me, and perhap others think about potential calamity in a different way that may help us avoid the same thing in the future.

I think, no hope that it is a teachable moment too. But I sure wish our teachers were teaching. In this I am rather disappointed. I feel all the silence adds up to tacit consent. I am right back to THIS IS NOT OKAY. And why can't someone just say that.


I also wanted to make an observation, vis a vis the argument about whether or not she hit the horse and forced him on or he carried himself across the finish line.

Have you seen the tape? I don't think she hit the horse after he stumbled the first time. But, from what I saw, she clearly said no when he bid to stop and urged him to finish. And that is one of the reasons people are so darned upset. Really, I do have to ask again, did you see it?


Some of you may recal that some years ago a horse died on course at Fair Hil CCI***. That horse had had, I believe, an anyeursm or perhaps a cardiac event, I do't remember. There was a gentleman, a horse person, but someone who had never before attended an event or knew much of anything about eventing, who had the misfortune to arrive on the grounds, walk up to a fence near the end of the course, and moments later have this horse more or less drop dead at his feet.

He was so distraught, that he began to pursue a variety of legal actions against the rider and the venue. He started a PR campaign of sorts to get this rider banned for life, to "get eventing", etc. Among his claims, were that the rider had whipped the horse repeatedly as it was dying, that the vets took more than 25 minutes to attend the dying animal, that the horse ambulance to 40 minutes to get him, and that the rider had more or less ridden a dying horse in to the ground.

There was a videotape that day too. It showed, when reviewed by a then AHSA hearing committee, that the rider never once touched the horse with the whip, that there were two vets on scene in less than 5 minutes, and that the horse was loaded into the ambulance an off the course in less that 20 minutes.

This person, even upon viewing the video in the hearing, still claimed that their initial impression of events were correct. I believe he even made accusation that the tape had been doctored. Despite what a roomful of impartial strangers saw on the video, this person still saw a horse being abused, literally, to death.

My point with this tale, is that to many people that wacth the video they see clearly a horse being ridden in to the ground, forced to continue, hit, etc. Others see a horse that isn't quite right, but is continuing to his job. But the point is that people will still see what they want to see, even on something as supposedly incontrovertible as video.

This is where I think so many "defenders" are missing the point. They are reacting to the very worst things that have been said. Most folks haven't said things nearly so harsh as all that. I think most people are closer to the middle than either of the extremists would like to think.

Personally, I saw a horse who asked to stop and a rider who asked him to continue. I think it was very wrong that she asked him to continue. I don't think she should be "hung" or "torn apart", I think she should be held accountable for for the "sin" of not listening to her horse when it was clear there was a problem. In what world does it make sense to ride a lame horse to a 4* fence? Even if he was only "stung", pain is a great distraction. The horse can't be 100%, so isn't it, in any senario, highly dangerous to horse and rider both?

What most people want to know is "what in God's name was she thinking?" Because, if they are like me and I ever find myself thinking that - I should realize it's not a good thing to think! And, yes, that is what the FEI is for. I think they have a pretty good track record when it comes to this sort of thing. And it will likely depend on a number of things we won't be privy to. Hopefully, they will come up with something fair and also meaningful. Hopefully something that says be careful what you ask your horse for, they may just give it to you, and you likely won't deserve it. Something that reitterates that the horse always must come first and get the benefit of the doubt.


Finaly, and this is also to LLDM, as far as disclosure after after the FEI ruling, I actually think the precedent for disclosure post ruling is pretty good. The FEI usually makes a statement explaining their ruling, with key parts of the person's testamony being synposized. Also, once the hearing is over, most riders do make a statement or grant an interview, giving their side of the story. Now, I grant you, the cases I'm familiar with are largely doping cases, and the rider'smessage is usually somethng along the lines of, "I trusted my vet to to use a skin cream that hod no illegal substances and he didn't, and that was ur mistake, and yes, we have been found guilty but I wasn't trying to intentionally drug my horse, etc. etc. "

But, as much as I am no fan of the FEI, I expect to have a pretty good feeling for the facts (as much as they can be determined, which is a whole 'nother issue) of the case after they rule, and all the parties get to speak out.

Pheonix - I think we are a lot closer than you might think. I am still confused as to what "facts" are going to pop up that will make it all okay for me. What she says, if and when she "speaks", will go a long way towards how I see her going forward. I admit, I am a bit taken aback by the "life goes on" thing. And I am not so sure those around her are doing her any favors.

I do believe this whole issue has great significance. I do believe these conversations are valuable. And if they offend Amy Tryon, I am not so sure that is more important than having them.

SCFarm

belambi
May. 25, 2007, 06:22 PM
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/121417.html

Sannois
May. 25, 2007, 07:29 PM
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/121417.html

:sigh:

Sannois
May. 25, 2007, 07:32 PM
I appreciated reading your above post. I 100 percent agree with your points. I do think this issue is important to discuss be it AT or any rider. Something we and the sport can benefit from. I think it is not a dead issue at all as some have said. Take out the name AT and discuss it. its very pertinant. :yes:

Equibrit
May. 25, 2007, 07:59 PM
From the FEI

14/05/2007
Information of the case of alleged abuse at CCI 4* Lexington (USA)

The FEI has now received the official reports and video footage regarding the case of alleged abuse involving rider Amy Tryon (USA) and horse Le Samurai which occurred on 28 April 2007 at CCI 4* Lexington. The FEI has notified Ms Tryon through the USEF of her right to be heard before a panel of the FEI Tribunal, which has been constituted to address the matter after it was referred to the Tribunal by the FEI Secretary General further to the applicable rules. Ms Tryon's response and that of the Tribunal panel will determine whether and when a hearing will be scheduled.

bauhaus
May. 26, 2007, 11:37 AM
I think, no hope that it is a teachable moment too. But I sure wish our teachers were teaching. In this I am rather disappointed. I feel all the silence adds up to tacit consent. I am right back to THIS IS NOT OKAY. And why can't someone just say that.

Great post. And YES! This ^ is what it boils down to for me. I don't event, but I dipped my toe in years ago when I was around 12 or 13. If I had seen this kind of thing happen back then, and the silence surrounding it from the big name players in the sport, it definitely would have left a very wrong impression on me as far as the ethics of the sport. I have always felt that eventers are the MOST considerate and talented horsemen of all the Olympic sports. But if I just now became exposed to eventing and saw this happen I would have the opposite impression of eventers. And I'm not just talking about a horrible injury. Obviously injuries happen from time to time and nobody's immune to that. I'm talking about the fact that very few people are standing up and saying what she did was wrong. It may have been a "mistake," but that shouldn't stop people from speaking out if they think it was wrong.

Equibrit
May. 26, 2007, 12:22 PM
It is a fact that sometimes people make amazingly bad decisions when involved in competition (Jill Henneberg 1996). This was one of those times. Action does need to be taken and a penalty assessed, if for no other reason than to ensure that ALL other competitors think twice before making a similar decision.

boppin along
May. 26, 2007, 05:54 PM
Does anyone in the "know" have any idea when the decision will be made?
I notice that AT is still out there competeing like nothing happened and is even at Pan Am selections with Poggio this weekend.
That just doesn't seem right.
No period of mourning for her I guess.
I was a HUGE AMY fan until I witnessed that, first hand, at Rolex, and I will never forgive that incredible act of cruelty.

poopoo
May. 26, 2007, 11:22 PM
There is something just wrong with that picture. Most athletes are suspended while awaiting the "hearing", and I don't see why this should be any different, especially when animals are involved at the hands of the "accused". Sorry, but innocent til proven guilty should be null and void when it involves the current well being of truly innocent animals..... for their safety, if for nothing else.

Equibrit
May. 27, 2007, 10:51 AM
I would imagine that it is the USEF's decision to suspend or not. I don't think that is likely - do you? (It would probably have been hushed up had the FEI not investigated)

LLDM
May. 27, 2007, 11:31 AM
I would imagine that it is the USEF's decision to suspend or not. I don't think that is likely - do you? (It would probably have been hushed up had the FEI not investigated)

Um, no. It has always been in the hands of the FEI. Rolex is an FEI event. It was an FEI Ground Jury and an FEI Appeals committee on site at Rolex who made the initial rulings. The FEI supersedes the USEF (and the USEA, as well) in this matter and has from the beginning.

Sorry, but you do not seem to be up on this issue at all. There have been half a dozen long threads on this. And this has already been hashed through.

SCFarm

Equibrit
May. 27, 2007, 01:43 PM
Suspension from National events would be a matter for the USEF, and I don't think I need to be terribly "up" on this to know that Ms Tryon is still competing in USEF events. Maybe you should have read poopoo and boppin's posts?

JAM
May. 27, 2007, 02:33 PM
Actually, judging from how USEF and USEA are (not) reacting, it probably hasn't been hashed enough. USEF and maybe even USEA seem to want to sweep it under the rug, so these are useful reminders about what these organizations prioritize. And, USEF and USEA clearly have jurisdiction over events they sanction, so their silence is appalling (at least IMHO). [This feeling, by the way, has nothing to do with the rider; purely about the organizations.]

LLDM
May. 27, 2007, 05:44 PM
From what I understand, there is not currently language in our national by laws to suspend a rider pending a hearing. I do not believe the FEI currently has such language either. Right or wrong, that is the current state of things - and suspending someone without the language or rules in place to do so opens them up to litigation - as the rider has not agreed to be bound by such a rule (as a condition of membership).

I would not be surprised if such language, in some shape or form, is added to the by laws in the near future.

Also, I believe the USEF is bound by any decision the FEI makes, no matter what their feelings on the matter.

The reason I think I know all this stuff is because I have had the same questions and been asking around about it and reading a lot of various by laws and general rules.

I AM confused about the seemingly total lack of response by the USEF and USEA. I do realize there are limits on what they CAN say, however, I do wish they would say something - as it can give wrong the impression. As such, I find myself in the very awkward position of wishing they had better PR!!??!!

I worry that so many people, from our orgs to our upper level riders and coaches have failed to realize just how deeply this has effected eventers and horse-people. This was Rolex, the pinnacle of US eventing, an olympian, who represents all of us to the world, and a truly heroic horse who lost his life for protecting and obeying his rider. I think all of us died a little bit over this. I think one would have to be made of stone to not be deeply effected.

I know I have a lot of conflicting feelings over this. Sometimes it feels as though the "powers that be" have chosen to protect "one of their own" over the welfare of the horses, the reputation of eventing and "the rest of us". Sometimes I feel as though they are just as conflicted and upset as "the rest of us" and really don't know what to say, with the exception that Amy is someone they know and trust and they can't quite bring themselves to condemn the person, even though they condemn the actions of the person. Maybe they are in a position to know that Amy is truly and utterly remorseful and devastated and hating herself more than anyone else truly could. But we don't know - and thus it is difficult "not knowing" to suspend judgment on such a horrific thing.

If "they" want us to respect the fact that there is more to be known than they can say, it would be nice if "they" would respect the fact that until such mitigating info is available people will still have strong reactions to such a awful situation.

Which leads me back to the FEI. I'm sorry, but the idea that it is all in the hands of the FEI is a bit too simplistic for me. Their powers are very limited in the scheme of things. They are not a court of law. They are simply a court of international equestrian sports. They have the power to suspend and to fine. They do not have the power to put someone in jail, nor prevent them from making a living with horses. It is their job to protect the welfare of the horses and the reputation of international equine sports and, to a certain extent, the athletes who participate in them.

Which leads me back to the USEF and the USEA. I have a request. Would y'all mind releasing a statement or two? Something along the lines of; this is the process, here are the relevant rules, here's the usual time-frame for something like this, we are taking it all very seriously so please bear with us? And something like; In the mean time, while the whole FEI Tribunal deals with the rules issues, we are looking at the matter too. We understand how serious this is and that it has had a great impact on many people. Once the FEI has completed its job, we look forward to some open and honest discussions about the various issues this has brought to the forefront. Please bear with us while our hands (and tongues) are somewhat tied. Is that so hard?

Silence may speak volumes, but it doesn't always say what you may hope it does.

SCFarm

boppin along
May. 27, 2007, 10:37 PM
LLDM, well said!
I feel a certain sadness has descended upon our sport over this. The fact that it is still so much "out there" in discussions with fellow riders, at horse shows, just in every day life, at parties, it is so talked about..... SO WHAT IS UP WITH THE USEA AND USEF?????
Yes, they SHOULD say something about it, anything, just don't be so hush hush. I would feel better too if they did just say yes, Amy feels worse than anyone can imagine etc etc. I want to know that so I am not so angry over this. It's hard to feel sympathic toward AMY when nothing has been said since it happened weeks ago. It's like it never happened, oh yeah, life goes on and she has lots of other horses and shows to think about. I find that disgusting!!! POOHY to those who keep saying, it's not the USEA or USEF's place to comment it's an FEI statement that has to be made, PLEASE..... Hey " USEA and USEF powers that be" STEP UP "
Take a stand here. Whatever it is , just say something.

Firefox
May. 27, 2007, 11:00 PM
yes it is discourgaging that we havent heard anything, but and this is a BIG BUT, it is not like Amy was purposely trying to hurt her horse, she made a wrong decision that will effect the rest of her life, not maiming the horse for insurance monies or even killing wonderful horses for money That is abuse!!! Given this age of information, we really need to be patient!!! What ever happened to inocence until proven guilty. I know we all have our opinions but untill all the FACTS are looked into lets, let those in charge do thier job!! (flame suit on)

event1
May. 27, 2007, 11:32 PM
OK-so if someone needs to say it-I guess I will be the one....No, Amy Tryon was probably not meaning to intentionally hurt her horse-and she made a ridiculously bad decision-BUT SHE DID HURT THE HORSE AND HE DIED. Why is it so hard for people to understand that just like-say-driving drunk-and getting in a wreck and killing your passenger...No-you didn't mean to do it but you did and therefore you need to take resonsibility that you were driving at all and there are now HOPEFULLY for eventing....will be consequences. I have to say-for someone that was supposedly so upset by the horse breaking down-I really haven't seen nor heard any remorse from the Amy Tryon camp.....she seems to be carrying on just like business as usual.(I know-I know-she can't talk because of the pending case with the FEI) To bad she wasted the opportunity she had to originally say something on BS. And-by the way-I have watch the Rolex video I ordered several times and I just find it very interesting that after Amy pulls up at the finish-SHE JUST STANDS THERE-WTF?....don't you think that if she thought he had pulled a shoe or banged himself-she could have perhaps picked up his foot to see if there was a missing shoe or taken off his galloping boot to see what the problem was??? My God-I would have been going crazy. The whole say-la-vie attitude of everyone involved is almost as sickening as the actually incident itself. :mad:

shea'smom
May. 27, 2007, 11:51 PM
It is not anything like driving drunk, which is illegal and has a premeditated quality, you know you are drunk, you don't care and drive anyway and hurt somebody.
Once again, you don't know what was going through Amy's mind when she got off. Dont' try to read her mind and comdemn her for your interpretation.

Jealoushe
May. 27, 2007, 11:58 PM
I dont think anyone is condeming anybody here. However I thought the drunk driving was a good analogy, maybe not perfect but it makes sense. The rider did know the horse was not %100, just like a drunk person knows they are drunk. If anyone says she didnt know then she shouldnt be riding around the Rolex because an intermediate rider would be able to feel that. Regardless I am not trying to get back into the debate, I just thought that analogy made sense myself.

poopoo
May. 28, 2007, 12:04 AM
"What ever happened to inocence until proven guilty. "
I think that went out the door when it involved an animal.....
So, by using that logic - in the case of a suspected child molester, let him still be alone with children until he's been proven guilty.... because, after all, innocent until proven guilty???? What about doing things for the sake of the horses? Forget about the people, what about the horses??????

event1
May. 28, 2007, 12:06 AM
The drunk driving example was just meant to parallel the thought that when you decide to push ahead and take a chance and it turns out to be a bad decision...the fact that you didn't mean to do it shouldn't absolve you from any responsibilty or repercussions. And I don't claim to even begin to know what was going through Amy's mind when she got off-I am just stating that a little concern from her physically or verbally-porbably would have ended this thread a long time ago. In all that followed the breakdown of Barbaro-did you ever hear anyone fault Edgar Prado? No-instead they applauded his efforts-hummm-interesting.

boppin along
May. 28, 2007, 08:33 AM
.
Maybe that is becasue he IMMEDIATELY tried to pull the horse up and hopped off, AND held up his leg till the vets got there with the van
AND I might add, all the while looking devastated!
Good comparison about the drunk driving too.
NO one INTENTIONALLY has an "accident", but if you're going 70 down a highway and have a blowout, do you keep going 70 until the next exit???
THERE IS NO WAY ON THIS EARTH THAT A RIDER OF HER STATURE DID NOT KNOW THAT HORSE WAS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE, C'MON PEOPLE!!
HE WAS HEAD BOBBING, THREE LEGGED LAME FOR 30 STRIDES!!!!!!!!!!!
I WAS THERE AND PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING FOR HER TO PULL UP,
There has to be SEVERE consequences, not just a slap on the wrist.
I think this decision by the FEI, will be a turining point in our sport, whatever the decision is.

shea'smom
May. 28, 2007, 08:53 AM
I still say the drunk is breaking the law and deliberately keeps going. Amy was not doing anything wrong riding a horse on xc, then things completely changed in a matter of seconds.
I am not saying she was innocent of any wrong decision.
If you read through these threads, you will see where some people had a totally different concept of Amy's reaction. I just think, since we don't know how she felt, we should leave it out of our discussions.
And don't bring up that she should be making statement, again. I am sure she is waiting for the FEI.

Madeline
May. 28, 2007, 09:09 AM
In my mind I keep going back to the earlier poster who said that it was not a wrong decision, but thirty-some separate wrong decisions. That makes it worse.

boppin along
May. 28, 2007, 09:11 AM
Were you there? Did you witness it first hand?
If not, did you see the unedited video? If so, did you count the lame strides?HMMMMMM..............

Platinum Equestrian
May. 28, 2007, 09:35 AM
In my mind I keep going back to the earlier poster who said that it was not a wrong decision, but thirty-some separate wrong decisions. That makes it worse.

Well said...

shea's mom - The "illegal" part is the fact that it is seen as abuse, to ask a broken down horse to continue to compete, according to the rules. Had she jumped the fence... maybe because it WAS too close to pull up to, (according to AT) but pulled up asap, BEFORE THE FINISH LINE, I think people would believed her sincerity and story more. She continued riding through the finish before she hopped off to check him.

shea'smom
May. 28, 2007, 09:35 AM
I was there. I have counted the seconds and the strides.
Someone purposely breaking the law is different from someone engaging in a legal activity and then having everything suddenly go to hell.
Prada is a stellar horseman, but you do realize, he was saving himself as well as the horse in pulling up so quickly. what he felt could not have been the same as what Amy felt. Barbaro's injury was catastrophic, immediately. LS was able to stay on his feet and jump a fence.
I am not saying Amy was right, just that these are different situations.

Firefox
May. 28, 2007, 09:42 AM
Were you there? Did you witness it first hand?
If not, did you see the unedited video? If so, did you count the lame strides?HMMMMMM..............


And did you notice the last strides of canter/gallop after he switched leads looked pretty normal for a tired horse, I think that she did have a look of horror on her face, she knew it was bad and didnt move him any further. I think that we are forgetting what a geat horsewoman Amy has been, it is not like horses have been breaking down all around her everyday, why shouldnt she continue on, this is her life and if it were me I would want to move on to help lessen the pain, we cant read her mind and if you can then you should be able to solve this!!!

Madeline
May. 28, 2007, 09:53 AM
Were you there? Did you witness it first hand?
If not, did you see the unedited video? If so, did you count the lame strides?HMMMMMM..............

No, I was not there. Yes, I saw the unedited video. No, I did not count the lame strides, but I believe from injury to finish was somewhere in teh vicinity of 34 seconds. As I may have pointed out earlier, in Edgar Prado/Barbaro terms, that would have taken Barbaro to the middle of the backstretch before he was pulled up. An eternity.

Equibrit
May. 28, 2007, 09:55 AM
Chapter 6 of the USEF General Rules.

PGR609 Temporary Suspension. In connection with any protest, charge, or any other matter which may properly fall within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee, and upon a finding that considerations involving the health, safety or welfare of Federation members and/or their horses, or the best interests of horse showing generally, warrant prompt action pending consideration of the matter by the Hearing Committee, the CEO or Executive Director may, by giving written notice of such action, temporarily suspend any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions until the Hearing Committee can hear the protest, charge or other matter and take such further temporary or other disciplinary action as it deems appropriate under these Rules, including temporarily suspending any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all LicensedCompetitions, until the Hearing Committee can hear or determine the protest, charge or other matter, provided, however, that in instances involving GR605 and GR611.2(i) or (ii) where the United States Olympic Committee Constitution, Art. IV, Sec. 4 (c)(6) applies, a hearing by the Hearing Committee shall be held on notice before any suspension is imposed. BOD 1/16/05 Effective 12/1/05

LLDM
May. 28, 2007, 10:26 AM
yes it is discourgaging that we havent heard anything, but and this is a BIG BUT, it is not like Amy was purposely trying to hurt her horse, she made a wrong decision that will effect the rest of her life, not maiming the horse for insurance monies or even killing wonderful horses for money That is abuse!!! Given this age of information, we really need to be patient!!! What ever happened to inocence until proven guilty. I know we all have our opinions but untill all the FACTS are looked into lets, let those in charge do thier job!! (flame suit on)

Not wanting to flame you, but I am trying to give you a reasoned response. First, I would be much more willing to be patient if I was being asked for patience and assured that the discussion would be opened up post ruling. If that's what the powers that be want, they should simply ask - nicely would be nice.

Second, I think the general term is something like "willful negligence" or "gross negligence". (I am sure someone will correct me!) In plain words, knowing or should have known and failed to act in a way to prevent very bad things. Meaning that she failed to help her injured horse in a reasonable prompt manner. It is abuse as the FEI defines it (i.e. the "failure to act' and "riding a lame or injured horse" verbiage), which are the rules she did agree to be bound under as a member of the FEI. As GNEP pointed out in another thread (I think), she was already found in violation of this by the Ground Jury and the Appeals Committee on site at Rolex and was DQed. It was referred on to the Tribunal to determine if further penalties were warranted.

Again, this is not a court of law. The penalties are not nearly as far reaching. I do not believe the "presumption" of guilt or innocence is addressed one way or the other. There are various protections for horses, officials, riders and the like. The balance of these rights as they pertain to this matter are beyond me, and would likely take an FEI scholar - is Ellie K in the house?

In any case, there are a wide range of penalties available to the FEI. I am confident that there would be a huge difference between an insurance killing or other premeditated act of cruelty and what we seem to have here. And even after the Tribunal decides, there is still an appeal available through CAS as additional protection for an athlete.

SCFarm

LLDM
May. 28, 2007, 10:54 AM
Chapter 6 of the USEF General Rules.

PGR609 Temporary Suspension. In connection with any protest, charge, or any other matter which may properly fall within the jurisdiction of the Hearing Committee, and upon a finding that considerations involving the health, safety or welfare of Federation members and/or their horses, or the best interests of horse showing generally, warrant prompt action pending consideration of the matter by the Hearing Committee, the CEO or Executive Director may, by giving written notice of such action, temporarily suspend any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all Recognized Competitions until the Hearing Committee can hear the protest, charge or other matter and take such further temporary or other disciplinary action as it deems appropriate under these Rules, including temporarily suspending any person from participating in any manner in the affairs of the Federation or participating in or attending all LicensedCompetitions, until the Hearing Committee can hear or determine the protest, charge or other matter, provided, however, that in instances involving GR605 and GR611.2(i) or (ii) where the United States Olympic Committee Constitution, Art. IV, Sec. 4 (c)(6) applies, a hearing by the Hearing Committee shall be held on notice before any suspension is imposed. BOD 1/16/05 Effective 12/1/05

Yes, but... (and you knew that was coming, didn't you?) Here's where it gets tricky. And I get a bit confused myself. There are USEF rules, FEI rules and USOC rules. I don't think the USOC rules apply here as Rolex is not a USOC event. She is charged under the FEI rules, which are not mentioned in the rule cited above. Whether there are USEF rules under which she could be charged as well, I do not know. But because the FEI rules supercede the USEF rules in this matter, I don't think the can charge her - at least not until the FEI charges are resolved, if at all (double jeopardy?). And if they (USEF) can't charge her currently, they can't suspend her currently - as I understand it. Obviously, I could be wrong.

I am guessing this is a technicality of juristiction. Again, it is beyond me. I am just trying to make some sense out of it. Maybe we should just call the USEF and ask them?

Again, this is why I would like the USEF and USEA to be releasing some information. Whether they can't, or won't, or just didn't suspend her is going to come out eventually. Why not just be up front about it? Some people will disagree no matter what they do - they would at least get credit for being honest and open about it.

I will say that rules get better when they are tested (hopefully) as they get exposed to real world situations and we get to see how they really work. Eventually. And again, hopefully.

SCFarm

Equibrit
May. 28, 2007, 11:11 AM
Does this make sense?



PROTESTS/CHARGES GR601 General. 1. Fair notice and an opportunity for a hearing shall be accorded to any amateur athlete, coach, trainer, manager, administrator, or official before the Federation may declare such individual ineligible to participate in any amateur athletic competition. Exception: When a determination of violation has been made by WADAor USADAand the Federation is required to implement and enforce any FEI penalties imposed by WADAor USADA, further Federation proceedings are not required. (See GR614.2) Any hearing conducted hereunder shall be conducted in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 6. 2. Neither the Federation nor any member of the Federation may deny or threaten to deny any member athlete, coach, trainer, manager, administrator or other official the opportunity to compete in the Olympic or Pan American Games, World Championship competitions or such other “protected competition” as defined in the USOC BYLAWS; nor may the Federation, or any member of the Federation, subsequent to such competition, censure or otherwise penalize any such athlete who participates in any such competition. 3. Any individual identified in Section 1 above who alleges that he or she has been denied by the Federation or a member of the Federation a right established by Section 2 of this Rule shall immediately inform the president of the Federation and the USOC’s AAC representative for equestrian who shall cause an investigation to be made and steps to be taken to settle the controversy. Notwithstanding any efforts taken by the Federation to settle the controversy informally or through the Federation’s grievance procedures set forth in Bylaws 701-704 and GR605 of Chapter 6, the individual may refer the matter to the USOC for action, as appropriate, under Article IX of the USOC Bylaws, which can be found at the USOC web site: www.usolympicteam.com, under the section entitled “Legal”. 4. The construction and application of Federation rules are governed by the laws of the State of New York. It shall be the duty of the Federation Hearing Committee to hear protests and charges in connection with alleged violations of the rules, to hear appeals from the Licensed Officials Committee’s non-renewal or revocation of a licensed official’s license, and to hear athlete and other grievances pursuant to GR602.8 and GR605. 5. For the rules and procedures which govern hearings of grievances by athletes and others, see Bylaws 701-704, and Chapter 6, GR601-602 and GR605-615.

pwynnnorman
May. 28, 2007, 12:26 PM
The balance of these rights as they pertain to this matter...

That's the thing, isn't it.

I just wanted to mention here (and wouldn't it be nice if the two threads could merge somehow since they seem to have arrived in the same space of argumentation???) that perhaps it would be useful to make a distinction between bad PR and (whether or not there are) "bad" procedures occuring. I agree that the PR isn't what it should be, not by a long shot. But I'm reluctant to criticize the procedures being followed because I don't feel knowledgeable enough to understand ALL of the details, including ones we aren't privvy to.

snoopy
May. 28, 2007, 12:32 PM
there is still an appeal available through CAS as additional protection for an athlete.




Too bad there aren't "additional protections" for the horse(s).....:(

event1
May. 28, 2007, 04:04 PM
Hey Shea'sMom-how do you know that Barbaro's injury was catastrophic and LS was not...were you the attending veternarian for LS....Obviously it was catastrophic or he would have been a surgical canidate and/or survived a hell of a lot longer than he did. The truth be told-that it is actuallly harder to tell what is going on when a horse breaks down behind then when it breaks down in front...and far more likely that it will fall-especially without some help from the rider. Of course Edgar Prado was trying to save the horse and himself too-in light of all the recent human injuries in eventing-I can't honestly understand why Amy wouldn't do the same for herself. In my opionion-the two situations are almost identical except that Edgar Prado was a stellar, compassionate, unselfish rider that day and Amy Tryon was not:no: