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eventer2002
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:04 AM
Does anyone know if there is video footage of the incident anywhere on the internet, or would someone be able to put it on you tube ? For those of us at the event who were watching in a different place and didn't subscribe to the online coverage, we weren't able to see it. It's awful hard to come to a conclusion without having witnessed the incident.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqUPoQj5hV8


Makes for horrid viewing


Moderator edit: YouTube video is no longer available because of copyright issues, but the video of the entire event can downloaded for $7.99 at this link: http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp

Navy
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:15 AM
you could see that the horse hurt himself several strides BEFORE the jump in the video!! he still took the jump....ouch!

sidepasser
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:40 AM
He is certainly a game horse with a lot of heart. I think it might have felt different to Amy than it looked from the ground, possibly almost like he slipped - rather than he was injured.

In any event I send jingles for a complete recovery.

mythical84
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:39 AM
Ouch! From the video it does look like he just took a mistep. I know that I've been on horses that took a funny step and were off for a few strides and then worked out of it. I don't know Amy, nor do I know what she felt up there, but I'm sure she wouldn't finish a course on a horse that she thought was hurt.

shea'smom
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:57 AM
oh, my god.
She must be kicking herself. It looks even worse seeing it again. Can you imagine coming around to the last after a ride like she had and then having that happen?

basil's mom
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:42 AM
I'm sure it felt like he over reached or pulled a shoe, took a couple of steps to get used to it and when he saw the last fence he looked sound again. If he had continued to get worse not better or if she had more time to feel him before the last jump I'm sure she would never have done it. Has any one timed how many seconds from his first stumble to the last fence? I know I have been on course had my horse go around, stumble, yank off a shoe, felt funny for a couple of strides then be fine. I have only met Amy a couple of times, but I am sure her horses welfare comes before her own, like the rest of us. (I am not suggesting anyone on this forum has suggested that it was anything more that a tragic accident)

claire
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:59 AM
From Equisearch/Nancy Jaffers:

"Of course, the biggest mishap (though that is far too mild a word to describe it) is the situation involving the leader after dressage, Amy Tryon. Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off."


http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/rolex07final_042907/

There is more in the article re: FEI investigation and Mark Phillip's statement on the incident.

Terrible situation for all involved.

Fence2Fence
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:05 AM
When I watch the video, it looked like he clipped/pulled a shoe. I thought that even before reading Amy's or anyone else's comments.

I wish it wasn't any more serious than that, and hopefully the facts will come out soon. Hugs and sympathies to Amy and Le Lamuri.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:06 AM
I don't know what if feels like to have a four star horse locked onto a fence and have to try to pull it up. I know that it is really hard to pull my horse off of a fence that he is locked onto (but not supposed to jump). Amy is an experienced and great horseperson. I would tend to agree with her that pulling up a horse locked on the fence could be a very dangerous option. To us watching the video who knows what is going on it looks like ages between that spot and the finish. To her it was merely seconds and he did look not too bad when he was on his right lead and still put a terrific effort over the last fence.

Le samuri is a horse with a lot of heart and Amy is a rider who has a lot of talent and compassion who had to make a tough decision and is going to get blasted for it.

AppJumpr08
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:24 AM
After watching the video, the horse did look better as he rounded the corner and locked in on the fence... Hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't think any of us are qualified to second guess what was going through Amy's mind as it was all unfolding. Looking back, would she have jumped the fence? Of course not. At the time, she did what she thought was best. God forbid any of us end up in a situation similar to hers.
I think it's not anyone's place to bad mouth her or second guess the decision she made... I'm sure that she's devastated enough without strangers tearing her apart.

I for one will just send good wishes and healing jingles to both Le Samuri, Amy, and everyone involved with them.

Midge
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:27 AM
I have struggled not to post because I suck at riding and am not an eventer, however, I have been a horseman for longer than Amy has been alive and I am calling a big ole bullshit on her husband's comment that she didn't know what was going on. The horse trantered, broke to the trot, crosscantered, changed leads a couple times and was head bobbing lame at the canter, all of which happened before she ever made the turn to the final fence.

She had a lot of time to let him trot a few steps, assess his soundness and continue on should he prove sound. My horse has an upright foot and she yanks the shoe off of that foot on a regular basis. I know it has happened before her foot hits the ground a second time and know if she is sound before her foot hits the ground a fifth. If someone as untalented as me can tell, so can Amy Tryon.

Based on the various, 'maybe she didn't know what was going on' comments I watched the video thinking I was going to see a horse take a few bad steps before resetablishing a good pace. That horse had a great, quality gallop going, especially considering he was at the very end of a gruelling course. After the misstep, he barely reestablished a true canter, yet alone a good pace. You could see him in midair over the last jump, damn afraid to land on the other side.

Poor horse...

retreadeventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:27 AM
If we have different opinions then it's not clear cut.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:37 AM
I'm with Midge - the horse was 3 legged lame well before he turned the corner and locked in on the final jump. The you tube video is grainy & doesn't show the details nearly as clearly as the web cast video. I was sick watching that horse struggle to continue on.

Spoilsport
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:51 AM
Okay, I'm not an eventer either, but I've shown hunters and jumpers a long time. Amy made a mistake. I'm sure she knows that in hindsight. With the benefit of hindsight, we can replay it in slow motion in our heads, and it might seem obvious (or not), but from her position on top of the horse it went pretty quickly. No time for ethical debate or weighing all the options. Do you think if she knew he was seriously hurt there would have been any selfish reason to keep on going :uhoh: ? She wouldn't have made it to showjumping anyway :no: . She had to make a quick decision based on what she felt at the time, and it's only is obviously a mistake in hindsight because of the way it turned out. If it had turned a different way, we wouldn't be second-guessing her. Who hasn't made a mistake and wished you could turn the clock back and replay it all over again? Doesn't work that way.

SBClancy
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:00 AM
If you look at the way Amy's riding changed after his mishap she wasn't as smooth as right before it. That horse definitely had a problem even before rounding the corner. It showed in his gate and in the way Amy was riding. Her riding didn't change as dramatically has his gate did but there was a difference. Sometimes adrenalyn and focus can get in the way of judgment but there must have been a second or two before the corner where something had to have briefly clicked in her brain saying something's wrong here. But until we've been in her shoes let's not judge to harshly until she's had her say. And I think after all the publicity about this that she should definitely make some kind of statement. If she doesn't then that would lead me to believe she knew there was a problem and didn't do anything about it immediately.

claire
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:09 AM
Like everyone here the Le Samuria accident just makes me sick. It IS a different era: instant feedback/results/ rides on video/live feed/YouTube.

But,I don't think anyone is going to know what was going through Amy's mind during those minutes. Maybe not even Amy.

I am not an experienced eventer so maybe someone (with experience) could answer some questions?

-Does instinct (self preservation) and adrenaline just kick in at this **** level?

-When a **** horse going at these speeds "Locks-In" on a fence...what IS the best/safest means of pulling up? I am thinking that experienced riders have probably been through this and are on auto-pilot with responses?

- I just cannot understand why an experienced **** rider aiming for Pan-Am or WEG would even TAKE a chance at Rolex? I have seen many riders at Rolex pull up or retire because their horse just was NQR or it "wasn't their day" or lost a shoe...

So much does not make sense here to me. Perhaps that is why theyare called accidents?

Anyone who could explain; I would appreciate it.

AngelEventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:13 AM
There was 10 seconds between the bobble and the fence... cut that in half to give time for it being too close to bring the horse back after locking into a fence. She had 5 seconds to assess the situation, make a decision, and get a horse full of adrenaline going at a high speed, pulled up and stopped. That's a lot to do in 5 seconds. Think about a car accident - what decisions have you been able to make in the first 5 seconds of the accident?

FrittSkritt
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:14 AM
Can someone please comment back on the youtube video to make those judgemental armchair quarterbacks shut up? Can't seem to do it myself, youtube won't let me log in.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:48 AM
I just did a time line, based on the counter on the web cast video.

The horse stumbled/injured itself at the video count time of 1:18:07.

9 seconds after injury, before horse rounded the corner, the commentator starts to say "I think she's gonna have to..."

11 seconds after injury, the horse starts to turn the corner for the jump
16 seconds after injury, horse takes the jump
30 seconds after injury, Amy gets off.

moonstrider
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:06 PM
hmm...just watched the video. I am definitely not Amy Tryon or anything NEAR a **** rider but looking at the video, my first thought was, "I wouldn't have pulled up either. There just was not enough time and he did seem to get better after a couple strides and switching leads."

Jingles for Amy and Le Samuri. :(

ChocoMare
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:16 PM
I'm not an eventer so don't normally poke my nose in here but the video caught my attention.

Folks: Let's not Shoot Our Own Wounded. :no:

Jingles for Amy and Le Samurai.

kt
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:24 PM
As I posted in the other thread, I was there and saw the whole thing from across a field (by the vet box). It was hard to tell what happened, but I could still tell something was not right. Seeing it up close on the video, it is much more obvious.....

To those who say he looks a lot better once he headed toward the fence and switched leads, it is probably because switching to the left lead took some of the pressure of the injured right foreleg. You can see that after he initially trips he tries several times to pick up the left lead (instead of the more painful right lead) several times before Amy gives up and lets him go on the incorrect (left) lead. But even on the left lead he still looks pretty bad to me.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:28 PM
She had plenty of time to pull up, the horse tried to pull itself up.

Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating. The horse did not lock onto the fence, it's ears were back, she rode him on into the fence and continued to ride him on over the line. He looked slightly more comfortable in right lead canter but ANY rider would have felt he was seriously lame.

In racing the horse would have been pulled up immediately, no doubt about that. Why should it be different in eventing? Adrenaline is a strong feeling but it was a serious error on Amy's part to carry on. Yes, no doubt she regrets it now but that isnt good enough, its too late for the horse.

I've never seen anything like this in eventing and I'm sorry, but the FEI must come down hard on her. It is unacceptable at any level, especially 4*

eks
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=Bossanova;2398168]She had plenty of time to pull up, the horse tried to pull itself up.

Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating. The horse did not lock onto the fence, it's ears were back, she rode him on into the fence and continued to ride him on over the line. He looked slightly more comfortable in right lead canter but ANY rider would have felt he was seriously lame.

In racing the horse would have been pulled up immediately, no doubt about that. Why should it be different in eventing? Adrenaline is a strong feeling but it was a serious error on Amy's part to carry on. Yes, no doubt she regrets it now but that isnt good enough, its too late for the horse.


I totally agree Bossanova. I have restrained myself from commenting, but after having watched the replay of the video, it is very clear that this horse didn't "lock on" to the fence at all. You can see Amy's arms flailing trying to encourage him to go forward. He had tried to break into a trot before he even rounded the corner. The lock on business is a bunch of BS being fed to everyone by Mark and her husband. How come he wasn't pulled up immediately after jumping the last fence? The poor horse had to cross the finish flags before he could be pulled up.

I hope he is going to be able to at least live a peaceful life in a field somewhere. My heart breaks for this horse.

CanAmchick
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:45 PM
I didn't get to watch the webcast, so until I saw the Youtube video I waited to comment. I have ridden at the **** level and know what it feels like when a horse is game and wants to jump the fences, that being said, Amy's horse was clearly stressed from the injury. His gait was VERY uneven, even after switching leads. There is no way Amy couldn't feel that. It also was far enough away from the last fence to pull him up, despite what Captain Phillips says. I am sure in hindsight, Amy would have reacted differently, but for them to try to jusify her decisions by claiming that she couldn't feel it or he was to close to the last fence is just wrong! IMO.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:54 PM
It was VERY clear that:

the horse was not right

there was PLENTY of time to SAFELY pull up

the horse was NOT locked on to the fence

She was actually DRIVING the horse on

And did anyone notice that she looked surprised to see all come running to her at the end

I have been here...I know when to pull up...I am sure she does as well...but CHOSE not to for her own reasons. Reasons she will have to answer too and live with.

Take her name out of the equation...just watch the video...ANY rider would know that this was serious from the first step.

I have ridden horses that stumbled, pulled a shoe, knocked himself etc...but knew fairly early on if I should continue or not.

Surely she must have known to pull up and didn't.

I do not appreciate the spin put on this incident by either Mark or Amy's husband. Mark has been known to make some bad choices so I do not believe alot of what comes out of his mouth.:mad:

bingbingbing
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:56 PM
Before watching the video and reading the comments defending Amy's ride, I thought I would see a horse stumble a little a few strides from the jump and recover soundly to jump. That is not the case at all.

It looks like the horse was switching from right to left lead when the injury occurred. There are at least 30 strides from the bobble until the jump. The horse was not going 25 mph while trotting and swapping leads and could have been pulled up. The horse did not see the jump until they got to the bend in the course and at no point rode soundly. I agree he didn't lock onto the jump. He did his job, what was unfairly asked of him.

Jingles for Le Samuri, it's obvious he's has the hugest of hearts.

I am glad there will be an FEI inquiry.

knz66
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:01 PM
Its a hard call and I am glad I didnt have to make it. I know Amy, she is nothing but about first rate care for her horses. To say that she had time, well thats another hard call.

I've never ridden a 4 star horse but I've seen plenty go. Sparky is a very strong horse, very strong. Once they get that jump in sight, it takes all you can to pull up, if you can at all safely, before the jump.

To me, it also looked like he caught a shoe, was recovering. and from the time line others posted, I seriously do not think anyone else could have pulled their horses up in time NOT to jump that fence and stay safe.

My heart goes out to Amy and her team.

KatieE
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:02 PM
come on people, i have had experience with riding at a *** level, and let me tell you most horses do not "lock on" to fences once they are tired and near the end of a course, they tend to look flat and semi-uninterested. Amy in my eyes did nothing wrong. I've seen horses act that uncomfortable because they overreached and ripped their shoe off badly, but if that was the case she probably would've kicked herself for not jumping the last fence, it was a split second decision, and it *doesn't* change the fact that the horse suffered a life-changing injury regardless of whether she jumped the fence or not. If you're going to attack anything, attack the nature of the sport, not just an individual player. If that was the case, let's go after all people that didn't know their horse was tying up on course and jumped 5 fences before pulling up, or that had a suspensory injury they didn't find out about until the next day, etc. Let's have a little compassion for her and her horse's situation, it is a devastating situation for both of them:(

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:04 PM
She had to come round a corner to present...the horse was LAME...she had plenty of time!!!!!! In the horse's best interest she should have NEVER turned the corner...period.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:08 PM
She had to come round a corner to present...the horse was LAME...she had plenty of time!!!!!! In the horse's best interest she should have NEVER turned the corner...period.

Totally agree- she didnt need to turn him towards the fence.
4* horses are trained to jump whats in front of them, they dont spot it from around a corner and run to it as the complexity of a 4* means there are often black flag elements in your path so they wait to be told what to go and jump.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:11 PM
She didn't leap off the moment he landed. She finished the course, brought him down to the trot, and THEN leaped off. :no:

I'm trying very hard not to be judgmental. I'm sure it felt as though he'd pulled a shoe or something, but he was SO lame... :(

event1
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:14 PM
I totally agree with Midge and Bossonova-although I hardly ever post and am not in the business of being critical after the fact-I had to post....I gallop racehorses for a living and have competed for years in combined training, I was there in person (to witness everyone screaming for Amy to pull up) and I am having a HUGE hardtime trying to understand/be compassionate for Amy Tryon. Even if he did pull a shoe or something so minor-if it caused him to be that sore-why wouldn't she pull him up regardless???? OK-maybe she didn't have the luxury of seeing it(obviously since she was riding) but with that many people telling her to pull-why would you doubt what you can't see but can feel? I don't care if you are at the finish-save for another day. When we are galloping/breezing racehorses-you ALWAYS have it in your mind to be mindful of how the horse is feeling-every stride-one tiny mistep-and YOU PULL UP!!! After watching that video-there is NO way you can convince me that she could not have pulled up sooner-that is a load of crap-I'm sorry. And when she does jump the fence-you can see a few strides out that she digs down and sends him on-hardly a horse that is so locked in on it that she can't stop him. I also might add-there have been comparisons in quotes of this situation to the one with Barbaro in the Preakness. Edgar Prado had a hard time pulling up Barbaro because he had JUST broke out of the gate with a group of horse-and he had to be tactful to ease him up to not cause a wreck. Amy was galloping ALONE on a tired horse with a loop in the reins-and when she did ask him to pull up-he was more than happy to ablige and slammed on the brakes. All I can say is that she is a very lucky girl that that horse did not go down with her especially landing on the back side of that HUGE fence. It is of no use to be critical just to be mean...however these riders are the upper crust of this sport and the decisions they make are an example to everyone and they have that responsibilty to the sport-their sponsors, to everyone watching and MOST IMPORTANTLY-THE HORSE. Sometimes your decisions whether they be right or wrong-come with consequences and and if you are not held responsible for them-what stops the next person from thinking twice about it all-these horse put their lives on the line for us in this level of competition and they need to be protected at all costs. Lets just hope and pray that that horse makes it because he is a hero-period.

tempichange
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:17 PM
looking at it from as person whose seen more breakdowns in racing than eventing (although I compete dressage and used to compete in eventing). It's very hard to pull a horse up in that much forward motion, let alone jam the breaks on and risk further injury.

The first seconds of film it looked like he slipped and caught a shoe. Being there, the sod was extremely water jammed in certain places so I can see that happening. But after the jump there was something very wrong, and she did the right thing. It was her call. She made it.

Now the people of youtube are bashing her brains out for it. It's easy to say you're going to do something in a situation, when you're not in the situation, but its much different when you're there.

I support her, and hope everyone in the parties turn out alright.

BLBGP
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:21 PM
But after the jump there was something very wrong, and she did the right thing. It was her call. She made it.



I could only bring myself to watch the video once, but it looked to me like she kept going after the last jump and crossed the finish line before dismounting....?

Ellie K
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:22 PM
And I think after all the publicity about this that she should definitely make some kind of statement. If she doesn't then that would lead me to believe she knew there was a problem and didn't do anything about it immediately.She did make a statement, and said all she could say. This is a legal investigation, if only sports law and not *real* law. I don't think it would be fair to her to expect her to incriminate herself in the judicial proceeding, especially now when she is surely so acutely upset. When the time comes the tribunal's report--including her "testimony"--will be published by the FEI.

Wench
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:24 PM
Ok, for everyone here who sounds ready to jump Amy and beat her...

How many of you have been out on XC and never had your horse bang itself or take a funny step? I know I have. Your first instinct is to pull up (which it looks like Amy considered) and then you say, well I'll just give it a couple strides to see if he just banged himself. Le Samurai tripped, it's not like he about ripped his leg off over a fence, and Amy probably just thought he pulled a shoe or nicked his leg or something else like that. She trotted for a second, and when she picked the canter back up the horse is VISIBLY better. Still lame, but better. I'm sure Amy thought it was no big deal, that the horse was fine and just a little ouchy. Who are we to say exactly how the horse felt to her? They were both tired, they were at the last fence at Rolex for God's sakes, I'm sure there was a lot of adrenaline. And remember, hindsight is 20/20. If it turned out he was that visibly lame but had only stepped on a clip on his shoe this thread would not be here! And let's assume for a second that she KNEW something was seriously wrong. Do you all honestly think she would have jumped the last fence? For what purpose? If she knew he was seriously injured then she knew he wouldn't be able to complete event anyway and somehow I doubt anyone in the situation would bother jumping the last effort. I think it's obvious she didn't realize the severity of the injury, and I think it's completely arrogant for any of us to say we would have realized it in her situation.

ToucheToujour
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:31 PM
How many of you have galloped a tired, well trained and extremely fit Thoroughbred down to a Rolex fence at that level?

I haven't. But I have galloped a tired, well trained and extremely fit horse down to a fence, had the horse trip and have to make that split second evaluation. Was that a shoe? Is she too tired to jump? Is she injured? You're pumping with adrenalin yourself--your ears are roaring because you are just as exhausted as your horse, your breathing and his breathing are loud enough together but then add in the crowd on the final fence. If you clucked to your horse, and said, "Hey buddy, you alright?" and he picked up a new lead and cantered on, you would think "Alright, minus a shoe but he seems game enough".

I can't speculate about what Amy was thinking down to that last fence, but I can speculate about what would have gone through my head. Clipping off a shoe at that speed could be a bit of a shock--he IS thoroughbred and he might have been a little more sensitive to that. But on the other hand, once she made that turn, she nearly HAD to jump that fence. There's NO way that she was going to stop him SAFELY in time before that fence.

Even after, she shook her reins, "Hey buddy", but he didn't respond. She was not pushing this horse on. She clearly takes off her leg, stops her seat, closes her hand and tries to safely bring the horse back.

If you yank a horse up from 500 plus m/m, you can do MORE damage that way. She could not tell from sitting on his back WHAT he did, she only knew that he was hurting. The safest thing for her to do is pull up as carefully as she could without frightening the horse, making him trip again, go backwards, go up, or hurt himself further.

Did she have the time to pull her horse up before the fence? Yes, I think she did. And trust me, that's going to haunt her for awhile. A long while. That horse's career is over. She's devastated by this, I am sure. She's nothing but a horsewoman, like the rest of us.

But she couldn't have known it was this bad. I think many other riders would have done the same thing. It looked like a thrown shoe to me and maybe him clipping himself. It didn't look like his entire leg fell apart, or anything career ending.

Jingles for Samurai and Amy.

wanderlust
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:32 PM
I have not posted on this board in months and months, but I have to comment here.

The youtube video is disgusting. The horse was not galloping at 25mph (in fact, he trotted multiple times). He did not "sight in" on that fence. There was no risk of a crash. She kicked that very clearly broken and distressed horse right down to it. She had more than enough time to know he was broken, and in no way does that look like a horse that grabbed his heel or a shoe.

I'll armchair quarterback and second-guess her decision. She made a huge mistake.

Oh, and for those who keep saying he's a TB, he's not. He's 1/2 Holsteiner.

sofiethewonderhorse
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:35 PM
As Coal Creek's owner, I think I have some say on Amy's horsemanship skills and the decision that was made yesterday.

Sparky & Amy were at the beginning of their partnership, her longterm goals with this horse went FAR beyond winning this Rolex.

She felt the mis-step, Sparky then sighted the fence and Sparky moved forward to the fence, when she felt the next mis-step she was 2 strides out...too late to change her plan.

No one feels worse about Sparky than Amy...he has suffered a galloping injury, jumping the last fence had no effect on the damage already done.

So please, take a break, give this excellent rider and horsewoman a break and honor a lovely horse who was more than game to go out and play.

She really doesn't need any more judgements than the ones she is placing on herself.

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:44 PM
I have heard from someone who was there and saw this happen. They said she should have pulled up.

bad deal all round.

JenJ
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:51 PM
You know, though I have never evented - which seems to be the case with most of the posters on this thread... - .

I think most of us are eventers - probably mostly Novice, Training and Prelim, but still eventers.

The fact that the crowd was screaming at her to pull up has been mentioned a few times. I was screaming at her through my computer screen as well. Honestly I wonder if she even heard them. When I'm out on XC, I'm so focussed on my partnership with the horse and the job at hand, I think you'd actually have to run out onto course in front of me to get my attention.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:52 PM
It's very hard to pull a horse up in that much forward motion, let alone jam the breaks on and risk further injury.

.


There was NO forward motion...none. Any forward motion you see his her DRIVING this horse on....around a corner....to the next fence...and CONTINUED to the finish line. The horse clearly wanted to stop...CLEARLY!!!:confused: Before the injury he was tired, off the bridle, ears back. She did NOT have to jump the last...nor should she have.

bingbingbing
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:55 PM
Agreed snoopy.

sofiethewonderhorse, I appreciate your involvement in the sport. But you really oversimplified what happened. The horse broke down at least 30 strides from the jump. He was lame the whole time being ridden towards the last jump, trantering, trotting and swapping leads. There was a bend before the last jump and Amy had to steer the horse towards the jump to show it to him. He never locked on in an eager manner. He did his job as it was asked of him.

KatieE
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:56 PM
he was galloping, i would call that forward motion. amy is not the monster you are making her out to be, she was not kicking, flapping and whipping a horse standing still, she was finishing rolex on a tired horse who i'm sure if she thought was that badly injured she would have pulled up, otherwise what would she have to gain????

HowiefromHallandale
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:57 PM
As Coal Creek's owner, I think I have some say on Amy's horsemanship skills and the decision that was made yesterday.

Sparky & Amy were at the beginning of their partnership, her longterm goals with this horse went FAR beyond winning this Rolex.

She felt the mis-step, Sparky then sighted the fence and Sparky moved forward to the fence, when she felt the next mis-step she was 2 strides out...too late to change her plan.

No one feels worse about Sparky than Amy...he has suffered a galloping injury, jumping the last fence had no effect on the damage already done.

So please, take a break, give this excellent rider and horsewoman a break and honor a lovely horse who was more than game to go out and play.

She really doesn't need any more judgements than the ones she is placing on herself.

nicely said. my thoughts and prayers are with Amy and Sparky:(

ReSomething
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:58 PM
No dogs in this fight. I am sure the decision she made will haunt her for the rest of her life. No excuses, no accusations. Jingling for all concerned.

royal militron
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:00 PM
I just watched the video... That was really really horrible to watch. He looks like he switched leads to try and be more comfortable galloping. I agree, in the event I ever felt anything for more than a stride or two (which it usually takes to brush off when the horse hits himself) I would pull up no questions asked. I know everyones adrenaline is rushing, but these horses do know how to halt.

I am feeling pretty awful after watching that video.. Jingles for Amy and Sparky!!! This is a horrible thing to go through for both.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:02 PM
HE WAS NOT GALLOPING>>>>NO WAY. This horse was barely in canter and that was because he was being ridden aggressively to even acheive that gait. I have never said she was a monster....she KNEW something was wrong and CHOSE to complete. To those who say "well the damage wads done already so it did not hurt him to continue"....are you FLIPPING mad? What did she achieve by finishing? NOTHING....but continued discomfort for the horse. He had to carry his tired body on three legs not to mention the conciderable weight of his rider. Just because horses are generous by nature does not mean we are allowed to abuse there nature. I concider her actions ABUSE.

JBnC
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:04 PM
I will watch the video when I get home, but even so, Amy was on that horse, no one else. Everyone else is just a spectator and that is entirely a different perspective. What are you feeling when you watch the video? A chair beneath your butt and a floor underneath your feet. And where were you? In an office somewhere, perhaps living room, maybe an inter net cafe...but you certainly weren't there on course.

I am a complete novice, but when I have seen myself on video, riding, I often think--Wow, I am moving so much more slower than I though, my legs are moving everywhere, that jump is tiny, etc, I notice all of these things that seemed totally different to my experience on the horses back. Instead I felt like we were outrunning a freight train, I thought my legs were still, and the jump was HUGE. It’s so easy to sit there and judge in comfortable surroundings.

Maybe I will comment later, after I watch the video.

WindWillowStable
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:06 PM
I think Amy is a wonderful rider and I have always respected her but she did make a bad call on this one.

If it would of been in the middle of the course and that happened she would of pulled up, even if the horse had it's eye on the next jump but I think adrenaline got the best of her and she knew she only had one last jump to get over. She had a corner where she could of turned left instead instead of right and gotten the horse stopped. These horses wouldn't be 4* horses if they weren't trained to listen to their rider. Think of Barbaro last year, if you can get a race horse stopped at the beginning of a race, you can get an event horse stopped at the end of a course. I have always been a big believer that when you have a split second choice of pulling up or continuing, you better play it safe and stop that horse, both for its safety and your own. No horse show, not even Rolex, is worth taking a chance when you obviously know your horse is injured.

With that being said, it doesn't change my opinion on Amy. She made a bad mistake but no one is perfect! And I'll keep both of them in my prayers!

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:07 PM
And before anyone dares engage me in my very vocal use of the word abuse please refer to the FEI article 143 and in particular section 1.5.:no:

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:09 PM
I agree with the posters who are calling BS. I was able to see both sides right up until I saw that video. There is NO way you can tell me that he felt ok from the saddle at any point. He took maybe 2 strides out of 30 that looked even halfway ok. He was hobbling and DEAD lame. I want to puke over what that horse went through. I agree with the other posters who said she was driving him to the fence, and certainly should never have pointed him to it in the first place. Couldn't pull him up my ass. Regardless of what sort of horsewoman she usually is, she did something VERY wrong that day. I am sure she knows that now, and regrets it, but he is the one who is paying the price. I feel badly for her that she is being crucified, but she knew what the right thing to do was, and didn't choose it. You can't make me believe she didn't know.

KBG Eventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:20 PM
I just don't know what to think.

I am really not thinking about Amy after watching this video because I feel so awful for the horse. I will probably come up with my opinion later, but for right now...ugh. That poor, poor horse. I can't even imagine how painful it was to jump like that...

Ja Da Dee
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:22 PM
I'm sure Amy made the best decision she could in the seconds she had, none of us have been in that exact spot. I'm also sure she will be regreting that decision for a long time, as they say hindsight is 20/20. I do doubt she knew how serious it was when she didn't pull him up immediately. There would be no reason to go on if you didn't think it was minor, this is eventing, not horse racing, and you need to pass the jog the next day. Those two had a bright future together.

~~~ jingles for everyone involved ~~~

Tackpud
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:36 PM
I have the greatest respect for Amy and all those who compete at the top level of their sport. However, I have had a horse, high on adrenaline, land from a jump in the middle of a course, canter away on 3 legs and was able to pull him up before the next jump that was 4 strides away. This was in the middle of an Open Speed class, so we were going very forward and focused on the next fence. It is not a feeling that I ever want to have again in my life. Nothing popped, cracked, or whatever, he just came off the jump and cantered oddly so I stopped. In watching this video, the horse is obviously cantering lame in front of the jump and should have been stopped.

Best wished to La Samuri, Amy, and all those connected with the horse. May he heal quickly.

Drvmb1ggl3
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:39 PM
As someone already pointed out, had this happened anywhere else on course, she'd have pulled him up sooner. I think being that close to the finish line was a factor. You don't achieve the level of success that Amy T has without being an intensely competitive person, but sometimes that competitive streak can cloud your judgement.
So it was a bad call, but don't know that I wouldn't have done the same being caught up in the moment.

akor
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:40 PM
Ok, right brain kicking in. Ex ante, there are two decisions:

1. Pull up. If it's "just a shoe" or a trip, you "gave up" a chance at winning Rolex. If it's bad, you may have saved the horse for the future, or the prognosis may have been the same (ie, hurt badly enough they are in the same boat as now).

2. Keep going, jump last fence, cross the line. If not serious, do what you can to make him ready for stadium, etc, see how he is later. If serious, well, that has played out. I guess the "worst case" is euthenasia.

Either decision has the possibility for lots of regret.

Ex post, the decision is easy. We are judging ex post, with much more information on the outcome than the rider had.

While I am in place to judge the rider's decison, there was a decision made, by the rider. The horse obeyed.

GoodyTwo
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:41 PM
How some of you are coming to the conclusions you’re coming to based on this blurry, unsteady video is beyond me. The FEI is investigating. Why not wait until the facts are out before you burn Amy at the stake? :confused:

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:41 PM
I feel badly for her that she is being crucified...
Then stop crucifiying her yourself.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:41 PM
As someone already pointed out, had this happened anywhere else on course, she'd have pulled him up sooner. I think being that close to the finish line was a factor. You don't achieve the level of success that Amy T has without being an intensely competitive person, but sometimes that competitive streak can cloud your judgement.
So it was a bad call, but don't know that I wouldn't have done the same being caught up in the moment.


When galloping XC one is always aware of any changes in the horses's gait or attitude...it is part of GOOD XC riding. To say you may have done the same means you are putting your ego above the horse's welfare.:confused: :mad:
Shame on you.

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:42 PM
Again, I agree with snoopy. And do you SERIOUSLY think she would have continued on to the fence if she were in last place and it happened between fences 3 and 4?? Poor gallant boy.

Gunnar
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:55 PM
Amy is a great rider and I trust her judgement. In this case she must not have felt what we all see! I saw a horse that was tired and then injured. From the video is appears she should have pulled up and that she had plenty of time. But I was not in that saddle and I cannot judge Amy!

Let us not badmouth Amy anymore as I am sure she feels worse than anyone, particularly worse than these strangers on the BB!:sadsmile:

My heart goes out to everyone involved. :sadsmile:

I am jingling for Le Samuri!:sadsmile:

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:57 PM
Then stop crucifiying her yourself.

I do feel badly for her since I am sure she regrets what happened, but she made a VERY serious error in judgement, and it is a public matter since it happened in public and affects our sports perception, not to mention the welfare of animals we love. As such, I am entitled to an opinion. And my opinion is that she did the wrong thing, regardless of how badly she may feel about it now.

Sannois
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:57 PM
It does not show where he first took a mis step, or maybe it does. Did it happen after a fence? I saw him on a galloping stretch the Video is not great, It does look like he is moving odd but not Barbaro 3 legged. And HE took the jump really game, and did not buckle on landing. I dont know what she felt or not. Not good to assume. Amy I believe is a good horseman. :no:

Sannois
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:08 PM
IS there another Video that you folks are watching that is better quality. This one on Youtube is grainy. I could not see any expression on Amys face. I dont know what to think. I dont want to judge either, But I swear he looked laboured going around that turn, and it almost looked like he was cross cantering. I dont know.. its sad. IS he shot for good now?? Trail horse? He sure is cute. :no:

citymouse
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:13 PM
I agree with the posters who are calling BS. I was able to see both sides right up until I saw that video. There is NO way you can tell me that he felt ok from the saddle at any point. He took maybe 2 strides out of 30 that looked even halfway ok. He was hobbling and DEAD lame. I want to puke over what that horse went through. I agree with the other posters who said she was driving him to the fence, and certainly should never have pointed him to it in the first place. Couldn't pull him up my ass. Regardless of what sort of horsewoman she usually is, she did something VERY wrong that day. I am sure she knows that now, and regrets it, but he is the one who is paying the price. I feel badly for her that she is being crucified, but she knew what the right thing to do was, and didn't choose it. You can't make me believe she didn't know.

buschkn ~ THANK YOU ~ i could not have said it better myself (and i was trying to come up with the words!

That video is the most hear wrenching thing to have to watch! No one is trying to crucify Amy, BUT she made a VERY BAD CALL THAT DAY! Everyones comments in the article on Equisearch (i think) is just plain and total BULL S**T!!!! For someone as experienced as Amy to not know that something was wrong after his first bad step is just absurd! She should have turned that horse to the left and gotten him pulled up ~ and for them to say that she pulled up right after the last fence, OH MY GOD, no she did not she kept going, how many strides farther and THEN STOPPED! And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't compare this to Barbaro (as they did in the article as well, not anyone here), if they want to go there, Edgar started to pull him up AS SOON AS HE FELT THE BAD STEP! He did not think "oh was that a bad step or a pulled shoe" and then urge the horse on to keep going!

PLEASE, we are not trying to crucify or anything of the sort BUT, watch the video over again and then maybe a couple of more times and then tell me you don't see a terrible terrible error on her part!

Tiki
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:13 PM
He looked VERY labored, she was working him, he was crooked and changing gaits - and ALL before she made the last turn and during the turn. You can see her lift her elbow a couple of times as if she were using the whip, but I can't be sure of that. Definitely not just hands on reins.

Pippigirl
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:16 PM
Amy probably just thought he pulled a shoe or nicked his leg or something else like that. She trotted for a second, and when she picked the canter back up the horse is VISIBLY better. Still lame, but better. I'm sure Amy thought it was no big deal,


Still lame but no big deal? :( I'm my humble opinion, if the horse is adrenalized and "is going for it", it's up to the rider to act on both parties best interests. If a jockey can pull up a race horse why can't eventers?



hindsight is 20/20. If it turned out he was that visibly lame but had only stepped on a clip on his shoe this thread would not be here!


I think any good horseperson would be more than ok if she did pull up over something minor. It would better demonstrate that she does care for the horse. I'm more than confident that she does have compassion for her horses, but if she did pull up, it would show everyone that and there would be no speculation. The thread would still be here, but the discussion would be different.



I think it's obvious she didn't realize the severity of the injury, and I think it's completely arrogant for any of us to say we would have realized it in her situation.

I don't think it's completely arrogoant for anyone to say what they would have realized in her situation.

ravenclaw
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:17 PM
If I am ever on trial, there are several people on this thread I would NOT want on my jury.

Sannois
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:19 PM
I know I dont wish the memory she will have in her head forever, I know what thats like you keep replaying it over and over and the what ifs. I never got the impression that she was so out to win she would sacrifice her horses. She worked hard to get where she is today. I am sure she has a heavy heart. Tell me something why do people always get on COTH and judge all the big time riders.?? Besides we are all eventers. IT could happen to any one of us. Good thought for her and Samauri is what we all need to do. :yes: And this just occured to me. Lets say she did think he was lame, and she wanted to get over the last fence, being that she was in first? She would know that he would never jog the next day and would be disqualified. So that argument is lame.. excuse the pun. :confused:

texang73
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:23 PM
It is a horrible video to watch :( , but I was there (at fence 31) and saw it from a distance. As an experienced horsewoman myself, I find it difficult to believe that it "felt like he'd pulled a shoe" or however she put it. It was clearly obvious that something was very wrong with Le Samurai. She had plenty of time IMHO to pull up without risking a crash.

But, I am not a top level rider, never having ridden a top level horse. So who is to say what she felt, did he "lock on" to the fence etc etc.

The end all be all is that we are supposed to be in this sport for THE HORSE, and whatever we do should be in the horse's best interest. Period. IMHO I don't think Amy did that.

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:32 PM
I finally made myself watch the video.

I'm speechless

ToucheToujour
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:35 PM
But we are watching a video. It is QUITE different when you're sitting on the back of a horse.

We can all sit here and say "This is what I would have done" and "how dare she" but in truth, unless you've been in the exact same situation, then you can't know how you would react. You don't know if you'd make that judgment call to pull up, or whether you'd say "okay, but he's still with me." Yes, he looks tired--in fact, he looks tired before he trips and if I hadn't known what happened, I'd chalk that up to exhaustion.

Amy doesn't have a history of pushing horses too far--in fact, she's probably one of the best at horse management and she truly, truly loves the sport and the horses. If she had a history of pushing horses, like others who were riding that day, then this would be a different discussion.

We weren't on the horse. It wasn't our call. We don't know what it felt like. We only know what it looked like.

Doodle
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:37 PM
We weren't on the horse. It wasn't our call. We don't know what it felt like. We only know what it looked like.

and it LOOKS LIKE she is riding a very crippled, exhausted horse.:no:

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:38 PM
Yes, he looks tired--in fact, he looks tired before he trips and if I hadn't known what happened, I'd chalk that up to exhaustion.

AGAINST THE FEI RULES>>>>:no:



We weren't on the horse. It wasn't our call. We don't know what it felt like. We only know what it looked like.[/QUOTE]


Give me a break...I am SURE she felt this:no: :mad:

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:38 PM
if you guys want to be critical of her fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but please realize that when you're critical of her in one breath then in the next say "you feel sorry that's she's being crucified" it makes you look like a bunch of hypocrits...or worse.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:39 PM
if you guys want to be critical of her fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but please realize that when you're critical of her in one breath then in the next say "you feel sorry that's she's being crucified" it makes you look like a bunch of hypocrits...or worse.


I do NOT feel sorry she is being crucified...it must be how the horse felt crossing the finish line

Doodle
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:41 PM
if you guys want to be critical of her fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but please realize that when you're critical of her in one breath then in the next say "you feel sorry that's she's being crucified" it makes you look like a bunch of hypocrits...or worse.

Remind me never to ask you to watch my horse jog!

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:46 PM
Remind me never to ask you to watch my horse jog!
Maybe I'm just slow, but what's the connection between me thinking folks are a mite hypocritical and watching your horse jog?

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:49 PM
Maybe I'm just slow, but what's the connection between me thinking folks are a mite hypocritical and watching your horse jog?

sorry maybe I quoted the wrong person. my point was that we, as horsepeople, should be able to tell - even from a grainy video, that the horse was clearly broken down.

SophieGirl23
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:52 PM
From Equisearch/Nancy Jaffers:

"Of course, the biggest mishap (though that is far too mild a word to describe it) is the situation involving the leader after dressage, Amy Tryon. Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off."


I've watched the video a couple times now. That was not a horse that was "locked on" to a fence. She was pushing him every step of the way. And for those who say he wasn't "that lame"...he was lame and it's obvious even from the grainy bouncy footage that he was very, very lame. Pull the poor horse up and save him for another day.

Also, if she was concerned with a crash why didn't she just turn him away from the fence and go past it? I wasn't there so I'm not sure, but generally, there is room between the fence and the ropes to go by a fence. It's not real clear from the footage if that would have been an option.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:58 PM
InVA I am not defending Amy or saying that she didn't make an error in judgement--I don't think anyone is saying that in hindsight she didn't make a bad call. I just disagree that this is the proper time, place or jury for a lynching.

Row Wisco, Row!
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:58 PM
It's awful hard to come to a conclusion without having witnessed the incident.What is there to come to a conclusion about?
Whether or not another person will jump on the bandwagon and berate her? What kind of judgement to pass? Who you should talk about this with next? I've seen a lot less concern for the horse on this thread than I have about the rider. I direct this question to everyone, not only the original poster... But perhaps this is a moot point and rhetorical question.


Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating.

And this is where you are sorely mistaken....
Tearing ligaments hurts for the moment it occurs and briefly afterward, at which point you feel nothing because you have severed all the nerves. Sure, your joints can feel wonky as all get out (I've torn 3 ACLS and 1 ankle and work in orthopaedic sports medicine) because they're structurally and functionally unstable, but they don't, per se, hurt. A 1200+/- pound horse galloping is going to feel and exhibit the ill effects, because they're supporting thousands of times their own weight in PSI on that structure. The pain experienced during the subacute phase of ligamentous disruption is most often the result of joint effusion and other soft tissue or bony damage that further disrupt the space by impinging nearby structures. I hope that Sparky is as comfortable as possible during his recovery. It's going to be a long and bumpy road. :sadsmile:

And I urge everyone....
Take a deep breath, step back from the emotion and the grainy you-tube video. I suggest that you not say anything here that you wouldn't say to Amy's face. Sure, it's easy to lurk behind the anonymity of a public BB and post hurtful, accusatory and inflammatory comments, and the distance that separates our perceptions from reality, but it's not fair or productive. To those who say we need to discuss, grieve, etc., I agree, but it needs to be done tactfully. If you couldn't say it to her face and stay there to refute it, don't say it. Maybe it's just me, and I'm fesity as all effing get out, but I see a lot of cowardice, ignorance and misunderstanding in this thread that would never rear its ugly head in a vis a vis encounter.

Some of you may know Chris Newton at Rood & Riddle....
I think this is a great time for everyone to jump on the bandwagon and learn from him what is perhaps one of the best bits of horsemanship I've heard in a long while. I know a girl who took her horse in for a lameness workup @ R&R. He didn't waste much time in aggressively but sympathetically informing her that she had no business running her horse at prelim if she didn't know what and where the major structures in her horse's legs were. Sure, the girl cried, and the parents wanted to protect her from the "bad in the world", so they paid up the $$ from the exam and sought another opinion. I applaud Chris for so emphatically pushing this agenda. I think anyone, really, who rides, and events in particular (b/c of the extreme demands on our horses' legs), regardless of the level, should know, for example, what the suspensory does and where it is. After all, how are you going to know something's wrong with it if you don't even know it's there?

So that's my challenge to everyone who reads this post and thread - take the time to make something of this terribly unfortunate incident and thread. I'm sure Amy would like others to learn from this situation. Seek out this information and become a better horseman. Everyone here has pretty good typing skills, so step away from the keyboard (well, maybe not you might need the internet for research) and learn about it.

There is potential for learning here. People need to see that and embrace it...not frantically row this boat down the Styx.

That's my bit for now. Jingles for Sparky, Amy, and everyone involved! :)

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:07 PM
Blimey, the large majority of that post had no relevance what-so-ever!!

I would happily say anything that I have posted to Amy's face. I wouldnt care if it had been a prelim rider, a pony competitor or the most recent olympic gold medallist, the horse's welfare was severely compromised.

Are you saying the horse wasnt in excrutiating pain? He wasnt weight bearing when she pulled him up. Thats more than a bit of pain. The way he cantered was more than enough to tell ANYONE he was seriously hurting.

I feel for Amy, I really do as it was obviously just very bad judgement, she wasnt deliberately trying to hurt her horse. It is a rider's responsibility to always do the best for their horse and the best for this horse would have been to pull up straight away. If it had been a minor injury then she could have seen that and made a calculated decision to carry on and complete her round. She should have checked at least.

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:08 PM
InVA I am not defending Amy or saying that she didn't make an error in judgement--I don't think anyone is saying that in hindsight she didn't make a bad call. I just disagree that this is the proper time, place or jury for a lynching.

I agree with you. I read a bunch of opinions in this thread. then I watched the video. IMO he is clearly lame WELL before he was presented to the fence. It is up to the FEI to decide how to handle it from here on out.

KellyS
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:20 PM
I hesitated posting here, but I did watch the video and despite the quality, there is not doubt that the horse was very, very lame and asking his rider to let him stop when he was trotting/cross cantering to compensate for the injured leg.

Am I reading too much into the brief video...perhaps. But I was partners with a horse that had the biggest heart. When we made the incredibly difficult decision to put him down earlier this month, both my husband and I said that it was hard because he was not a horse that would ever "quit"--if asked, he would run cross country on a broken leg. We had the huge responsibility to make that decision for him--before he truly began to suffer.

When you have a horse like that, you must be careful to never take advantage of the heart and courage. And I know that all of us as eventers are very attuned to every nuance of our horse's personalities and gaits. Using the reasoning that "she didn't realize how lame he was" is not fair to the horse or rider--even as a lower level rider, I know when my horse is not right underneath me. We all recognize that Amy is a wonderful horsewoman--I do believe she knew something was quite wrong underneath her, but in a split second, made a judgement call that many will spend hours scrutinizing.

I am not one to place blame--we all make horrible mistakes and judgement calls at points in our lives. We are all human. However, I think what does bother me is the statement made afterward--I'd much rather have someone just say, "Yes, I made a mistake" than come up with "he was locked on the fence and it was safer to jump (paraphrased)." That horse never locked on the fence--he jumped it because he was asked to and was ready to pull up as soon as he was allowed--and a rider that can realize that and know they made the wrong choice that day has more respect in my book than one who tries to justify why they made the decision they made.

I feel terrible for Le Samurai, Amy, and all their connections. My heart still aches over losing my own horse and I truly hope that this horse can overcome his injury and live a good quality of life.

katherine w
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:21 PM
I've been reading and following this since it happened but today was my first glimpse of the video. I can see why Amy didn't feel it. Of course... I watched the footage about 5 times. When he first "tripped" (sorry, don't know what you'd call it) he looked really bad but she was going FAST so she got him together and he went ok for a step and then bad again but then he switched to his left lead and he looked ok, stiff. I think if he had note gone to that lead and stayed on it (which he did at that point) then she would have pulled up. But when he went to that left lead and kept going then I think she thought he was ok. She was probably thinking it would be a very long night of icing and such. But after the last jump, as he went gallopping away, I think she knew something was really wrong. The distance to the finish was about the same as the distance it would have taken to stop anyway, and he is trained to slow down and stop at the finish so his training also helped here. I don't think she is at fault. Not that anyone would care what I do think...

I can't help but that "what if" it had happened anywhere else on course. She would have pulled up (maybe within same time) and no one would be judging. The judgement seems to be coming from the fact that she crossed the finish line. I don't see how the jump judges could have made the call to get her to stop, I'm not even sure what a vet would think. And I think that the choice not to accept Amy's withdrawal but instead to consider it a DQ is wrong...

I wish Amy, Le Samurai and everyone taking care of them both ... I wish you all well. There are long days and nights ahead...

Tricksy
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:24 PM
She had plenty of time to pull up, the horse tried to pull itself up.

Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating. The horse did not lock onto the fence, it's ears were back, she rode him on into the fence and continued to ride him on over the line. He looked slightly more comfortable in right lead canter but ANY rider would have felt he was seriously lame.

In racing the horse would have been pulled up immediately, no doubt about that. Why should it be different in eventing? Adrenaline is a strong feeling but it was a serious error on Amy's part to carry on. Yes, no doubt she regrets it now but that isnt good enough, its too late for the horse.

I've never seen anything like this in eventing and I'm sorry, but the FEI must come down hard on her. It is unacceptable at any level, especially 4*


I totally agree, she had plenty of time to pull up, the horse was not locked on, she is talking out of her ass. I am not as experienced as her but I know when my horse is lame and christ almighty what the hell did she think was happening????? She had to push and push him back into canter and she didn;t pull him up, he stopped :mad: she needs the book thrown at her and I hope she never comes to the UK because she will not be welcome by a lot of us

Row Wisco, Row!
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:25 PM
Blimey, the large majority of that post had no relevance what-so-ever!!

Who are you to deem what is and isn't relevant for me or others?
Quite frankly, I found all of it to be relevant or I wouldn't have thrown it to the wolves.

Funny how you can keep interjecting your thoughts and expect respect and acknowledgement for them, if not agreement, but I can't do the same. You can throw the barbs, but you sure can't take them!

And re: the horse being uncomfortable.
I never said that he wasn't. I said he surely experienced ill effects b/c of the huge load. I was correcting the assumed science behind it because I hope that something good and educational can come from this thread. I was trying to contribute in a positive manner, which is more than I can say for some.

canyonoak
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:29 PM
I remain stunned by the reactions here.

Ive been involved in eventing a long time. Back in the days when you went as fast as you can, as hard as you can. Right through to now, although now is through my daughter.

Ive been involved with horses most of my life,in horse sport and in just loving them.

Never did I ever think there would be this kind of vicious, unthinking, uninformed reaction from event riders.

yes--you are all entitled to opinion.

But opinion on this kind of situation--with no facts, no real knowledge, no statements from anyone that matters-- opinion can be misguided.

Pages back, someone posted a timeline.

I have no idea what I might have done in those 20-30 seconds.
But I am sure over the years that what I have done, with horses or in life, has resulted in good and bad consequences. Seconds, minutes, hours, years.

All these experiences have left me humbled by the horses, and grateful for the involvement.

My heart goes out to Amy Tryon. Her life is irrevocably changed.

My heart goes out to 'Sparky'.
I not only knew his sire, Sabotage, but own several Sabotages and my daughter used to ride him and his get. We have our own 'Sparky', also Holsteiner-Thoroughbred, also an event horse. (But named years before we knew of Le Samurai).

For now, I've got fingers crossed that the surgery goes well. And that the pooh-bahs of FEI remember what it is to be human.

Tricksy
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:32 PM
I've been reading and following this since it happened but today was my first glimpse of the video. I can see why Amy didn't feel it.
...


WHAT????? what do you normally ride...a merry go round horse :confused: how the hell could she not feel it, for goodness sake :mad:

solargal
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:37 PM
:no:

If you couldn't tell that horse was seriously injured the first bad step. :no: That is disgusting. It looked nothing like a pulled shoe or slip. He took a bad step and proceeded to be three legged lame for what, 25 more strides before the next jump. It isn't about competition, even if you aren't sure, you should pull up immediately.

katherine w
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:37 PM
right on, canyonoak... we are all human.

up&atem
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:38 PM
I doubt Amy Tryon is at the level where you have to look down to see what lead you're on... even beginners can tell if a horse is Cross cantering..can't they? ;)

up&atem
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:39 PM
I mean, how could she not tell something was wrong? :no:

Tricksy
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:45 PM
right on, canyonoak... we are all human.


thats right we are all human, and apparently with feelings and awareness :confused: where was Amy's:confused:

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:45 PM
I am not one to place blame--we all make horrible mistakes and judgement calls at points in our lives. We are all human. However, I think what does bother me is the statement made afterward--I'd much rather have someone just say, "Yes, I made a mistake" than come up with "he was locked on the fence and it was safer to jump (paraphrased)." That horse never locked on the fence--he jumped it because he was asked to and was ready to pull up as soon as he was allowed--and a rider that can realize that and know they made the wrong choice that day has more respect in my book than one who tries to justify why they made the decision they made.

I feel terrible for Le Samurai, Amy, and all their connections. My heart still aches over losing my own horse and I truly hope that this horse can overcome his injury and live a good quality of life.

Nicely said.

Also, I do think that "R. Wisco R." raises some vaild points, although I disagree with some. Also, as a physician, I can assure you that ligament injuries hurt even before the joint effusion. And for those who suggested the damage was done so she didn't hurt him more by jumping- nobody knew at the time it was ligamentous. What if it had been a fracture? Still no change in the outcome to go on and jump??

Debbie
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:48 PM
I watched it in real time on the live feed and immediately said oh my god he's broken down. I couldn't believe he stayed up over the last fence. The horse has the heart of a lion.

That said, the first 11 minutes of Amy's ride were a study in amazing horse sense and good judgement. She rode a clearly hot horse extremely tactfully. She let him be himself between the fences and asked for his attention on the combinations with respect (and got a lovely response). I thought her quite the genius watching and didn't envy her the ride at all despite his extreme athleticism. Too bad that part of the ride isn't on Youtube to balance the last horrific 30 seconds. It wouldn't cancel it out, but it would balance the picture.

The FEI will no doubt take this seriously and will fully investigate. I'd bet no one is harsher and more devastated than Amy. I am as sorry I saw La Samurai's breakdown as I was seeing Barbaro's -- I'm with the others who hesitated to post on this thread, but I was incredibly disturbed by witnessing the downfall of a wonderful horse as I would have been if he'd never taken the last fence.

WindWillowStable
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:49 PM
I think what upset me the most is that we have had a lot of devasting things happen in eventing lately. What no one has pointed out is by pushing her horse on she took the chance of him not making it over that last fence. He could of not cleared and flipped over it, he could of buckled on the landing and the eventing world could of been faced with another serious rider AND horse injury. She took a huge chance by trying to go for that last fence, even if it would of just been a pulled shoe..lame is lame and he was very lame!

As for people defending her decision...would you still be defending that decision if it was made by a no name rider?

As I said in an earlier post, I think she is a great rider and I'm sure she'll get through this but IMHO no one should be defending her decision to continue on. A mistake is a mistake and a big one was made that day!

Lori T
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:54 PM
Keeping my opinions to myself..but am wishing the best to Le Samuri and to Amy.

Spoilsport
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:55 PM
This was my first time venturing into this forum. I started browsing only because I knew a couple of the horses and riders at Rolex this year (Amy is not one of them). I have to say I, too, am stunned by the nasty, petty, judgmental comments on this thread :mad: :mad:

All I can say is jingles to Amy & Sparky & those who are personally affected by this.

horsegirl888
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:30 PM
Her horse was trotting, cantering, switching leads, and head-bobbing lame. That is not a result of a pulled shoe or a scrape. She had plenty of time between the two fences, he was not "locked into the fence" but rather struggling to keep his gallop. Who knows if his injury wouldve been less severe had she pulled up, but certainly he exerted a lot of force on his already injured leg. Watching the video has made me lose some respect for Amy, but as far as Samuri, I hope that he recovers and is not in too much pain. :sadsmile:

flyingchange
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:32 PM
This was just posted on COTH. Hope it's OK that I copied/pasted it.

Tryon Under FEI Investigation Following Rolex Kentucky


Le Samurai’s injury before the last fence at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event left spectators at the event and around the globe, who were watching on the Internet, shocked and upset. He jumped the last fence almost on three legs, and Amy Tryon, who had been in the lead after dressage, dismounted immediately upon crossing the finish line.

Members of the ground jury met later on April 28 to investigate the incident for alleged abuse. They reviewed written statements from the fence judges, watched the videotape and interviewed FEI Veterinary Delegate Dr. Catherine Kohn. They could not reach Tryon, because she had left the show grounds to be with Le Samurai.

Ground jury officials then referred the matter to the FEI Appeal Committee because the matter falls under their duties, according to article 164.4.5 of the FEI General Regulations, “In serious cases, immediate disqualification with one or more horses from a competition or from the whole event with referral to the Secretary General (for referral to the Judicial Committee.)”

Tryon was disqualified from the competition. She released a statement on April 29: “Le Samurai is resting comfortably at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute [Ky.] and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the injury he sustained yesterday but cannot comment further pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me, and we share a deep bond that is beyond competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, we will always be partners. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.”

The FEI Judicial Committee (Ken Lalo of Israel, Erik Elstad of Norway, Jens Adolphsen of Germany, Patrick Boelens of Belgium, Leonidas C. Georgopoulos of Greece, Helen Huggett of Great Britain and Philip O'Connor of Ireland) may take any action, ranging from a warning, to a fine, to a suspension for any period of time or for life, if she is found to have violated the rules.

2hsmommy
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:38 PM
If your in the public eye, your open to comments. It comes with the territory. Any time you do something/anything in public, people are going to talk about it. No one is exempt.

She had to have known something was NQR. Le Samuri would have stopped/slowed on his own accord.

Things could have ended so differently.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:39 PM
My heart goes out to her. I've screwed up pretty royally a few times in my life, too. (Yes, part of me also thinks she screwed up) and terrible remorse is often a harsher punishment than anything that could ever be imposed by a third party. :no: What comes after is FORGIVENESS, if we are lucky.

My heart goes out to the horse and his owners, too. I'm sure he'll have whatever he needs to be made comfortable and happy. It's a powerful reminder of the responsibility we take with our big-hearted animals. :sadsmile:

moonriverfarm
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:40 PM
Not passing judgement, only saying it is usually the horse who pays the dearest price. And also that the focus on winning often muddies the waters of good decision making.

sofiethewonderhorse
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:50 PM
Things could have ended so differently.

Because this thread has gotten so long I doubt many read my first post, so I would like to reiterate one point:

Sparky's injury was a galloping injury. The outcome would have been the same had Amy pulled up or allowed him to jump the last fence.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:54 PM
Because this thread has gotten so long I doubt many read my first post, so I would like to reiterate one point:

Sparky's injury was a galloping injury. The outcome would have been the same had Amy pulled up or allowed him to jump the last fence.

Yes he would have been injured whatever but she very probably made the injury worse by continuing to put strain on the leg.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:54 PM
Because this thread has gotten so long I doubt many read my first post, so I would like to reiterate one point:

Sparky's injury was a galloping injury. The outcome would have been the same had Amy pulled up or allowed him to jump the last fence.


The outcome may have been the same but she should have never put any more undo pressure and pain on this horse by continuing to gallop and jump. Ethics!!!! Or lack there of.:mad:

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:56 PM
Because this thread has gotten so long I doubt many read my first post, so I would like to reiterate one point:

Sparky's injury was a galloping injury. The outcome would have been the same had Amy pulled up or allowed him to jump the last fence.

Yes, the injury first presented during galloping, and likely the horse's suspensory structure was already blown, and yes, the outcome would have been the same either way -- depending on the severity of the injury, he would have been withdrawn, spun at the final jog, or carted away in an ambulance and DQ.

What matters is the question of whether it was right to continue on an obviously lame horse.

That will be for the FEI to determine. Amy already knows the answer.

sofiethewonderhorse
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:57 PM
Yes he would have been injured whatever but she very probably made the injury worse by continuing to put strain on the leg.

Not according to Vet.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:59 PM
Not according to Vet.

You've spoken to the vet have you? And he can categorically say that it made no difference?
I dont think anyone will ever know whether it did make a difference to his injury but it could have done and thats all that matters.

event1
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:59 PM
It doesn't matter if it was a "galloping" injury a "jumping" injury or a "farting" injury for that matter-how on earth does anyone know continuing did not make it worse-of course it did. What may have still been intact in that animals leg were not helped by continuing to gallop and then jumping a HUGE fence. If that was the case-then why didn't they walk him over to Haggard to help cool him out instead of putting him on the horse van????? You people will think of any angle to justify someones poor decision making-and the only one that is now innocently suffering is that poor horse.....:(

Dow Jones
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:02 PM
This was just posted on COTH. Hope it's OK that I copied/pasted it.

Amy Tryon, who had been in the lead after dressage, dismounted immediately upon crossing the finish line.


Yes, she dismounted immediately after crossing the finish line- which was about 19 strides after landing from the fence. Were those additional 19 strides really necessary?

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:03 PM
Bossanova, Sophiethewonderhorse is Coal Creek's owner. That is Amy's CCI** winning horse. She probably does know what the vet has said.

Bossanova
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:07 PM
Bossanova, Sophiethewonderhorse is Coal Creek's owner. That is Amy's CCI** winning horse. She probably does know what the vet has said.

Ah ha thankyou, well in that case I apologise but stand by my statement that I'm sure no-one could categorically say it did no more harm.

I've seen a fair few injuries of a similar type and I just hope the horse can remain sound enough for a happy life

Kementari
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:08 PM
My only thought in reading these threads is that many people here are apparently very, VERY lucky never to have made "the wrong" decision regarding a horse who takes a bad step (or a few bad steps). Most of us who have been riding for any period of time have been faced with that decision at some point or another, and it is only by luck if we have always made the right decision. Sometimes you know, and sometimes you don't. Of COURSE it's bloody obvious watching the video - you KNOW what the outcome is! Amy didn't know (obviously), and it felt different to her than it looked to those watching. That is NOT a criminal offense - I should imagine (though I, like pretty much everyone else here, can ONLY imagine) that the adrenaline of running XC at Rolex, combined with the exhaustion of the end of the course, makes a lot of things feel different than they do when you're going for a walk in the park.

Obviously, she made the wrong decision - we can't really argue that, given what we know now. But that doesn't mean she made the decision for the wrong reasons. Everyone (even the self-righteous) has made bad decisions in life; most of us have made a least one with the best intentions.

I sincerely hope that the next time some of you make a bad choice, you too can be chewed out, called names, and generally horribly insulted by a bunch of strangers on the internet. After all, that's the way you think it should be, right?

Edited to add: I find it rather telling that so many people claim they care about the horse and nothing else, yet cannot even be bothered to spell said horse's name correctly. (It's Le Samurai...) If you are going to butcher someone, at least try to care about the details, first. It might make people actually believe that you thought before you typed...

2hsmommy
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:08 PM
Because this thread has gotten so long I doubt many read my first post, so I would like to reiterate one point:

Sparky's injury was a galloping injury. The outcome would have been the same had Amy pulled up or allowed him to jump the last fence.

And so.....Does that make it okay?
:no: I hadn't been implying about the injury itself. But go ahead and think that.
Things could have ended differently if she had pulled up. People would be clapping/cheering for her for doing the right thing by the horse. But she didn't, even when a non horse person like my DH could tell Le Samuri wasn't right.

AlwaysHopeful
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:16 PM
I tried to help people from sounding horrible on youtube, but it only added to the madness. Now people are trying to say how they're so amazing, they would've pulled up, etc. Unless you have been in that exact situation, you don't know what you would've done.

Amy has never done anything before this to make anyone think that she's an incompetent rider. While I'm not saying what she did is okay, I am hopeful that she is able to recover from this.

And of course I'm still jingling for Sparky.

JBnC
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:19 PM
I finally watched the video. I am not sure what I would have done if I were in her place. Yes, to me he looks very lame before the fence, however, the few strides up to the fence he looks okay, the three or four before his head looks pretty level. I think that after the fence she stopped him within a reasonable amount of time and dismounted accordingly.

I would really like to hear her side of the story, what she felt going into the jump and why she did not decide to pull up and dismount after the initial problems.

flypony74
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:22 PM
But we are watching a video. It is QUITE different when you're sitting on the back of a horse.

We can all sit here and say "This is what I would have done" and "how dare she" but in truth, unless you've been in the exact same situation, then you can't know how you would react. You don't know if you'd make that judgment call to pull up, or whether you'd say "okay, but he's still with me." Yes, he looks tired--in fact, he looks tired before he trips and if I hadn't known what happened, I'd chalk that up to exhaustion.

Amy doesn't have a history of pushing horses too far--in fact, she's probably one of the best at horse management and she truly, truly loves the sport and the horses. If she had a history of pushing horses, like others who were riding that day, then this would be a different discussion.

We weren't on the horse. It wasn't our call. We don't know what it felt like. We only know what it looked like.

Well said. What is done is done. Let's let the FEI review the FACTS of the incident rather than speculate, as that does no good.

I think it is a given that Amy could have certainly made a better judgement call, but none of us were in her irons and do not know what she was feeling. We're all human and have made less than perfect judgement calls in a pinch, and Amy is human also. How many of you have made a bad judgement call before? If you haven't, then you are a better person than I. I, personally, do not think that she was maliciously running a lame horse in the interests of personal glory, but that she simply didn't react as fast as she should have, maybe due to confusion or disbelief. Regardless, I do not believe her intent was bad.

HorseLuvr
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:29 PM
Please tell me.......WHY THE HELL DID SHE NOT PULL UP???!!!! It is blatantly obvious to a viewer that this horse was injured FAR before the fence......dont you think the rider (especially one of this "caliber") would have noticed IMMEDIATELY!? :no:

Lord Helpus
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:31 PM
I am not going to comment on AT. She does not deserve my thoughts. It is the job of the FEI to deal with her.

Le Samurai however has gained my highest respect. He is the epitome of courage and trust that our equine partners have. The elite athletes at the **** or World Cup level must have total faith that their riders will not ask them to do anything that they are not capable of doing.

These horses will gallop until they drop, jump until they break, all to please the human on their back. A less generous and brave horse will set its own limits, but not an elite equine athlete. Yes, they must love their job. But, without a rider, a horse will not jump the Rolex fences. He does it because he is asked to, not because it is a natural instinct.

However, TB's are bred to race and Barbaro would have kept racing, but for Prado's superhuman efforts to pull him up, beginning THE VERY STRIDE after his leg broke. (For those who say that a rider cannot tell immediately, watch the video of the Preakness in slow motion. Edgar Prado was going for the second leg of the Triple Crown on the favorite and yet he reacted on the very next stride to get Barbaro stopped.)

Riders of these special horses owe them a higher level of care, since the horses will not stop on their own, if their riders continue to ask them to gallop or jump.

Le Samurai is a hero. I get goosebumps just thinking about his bravery jumping that last jump, three legged, in pain, and exhausted. Just because his rider asked him to.

For all these horses do for us, we owe them more than second class consideration. Their welfare should come before EVERYTHING. And I mean EVERYTHING. One more jump, one more stride, one more step.

AT was doing more than riding Le Samurai; she was representing a sport which has a dicey reputation in the eyes of animal rights activists, anyway. And she is/was a role model of thousands of children who aspire to ride like her, but who now question the morals and goals of those at the top levels. She probably also has sponsors who are now in an awkward position.

Riders at the top are not just going for a gallop in the park, they have many levels of responsibilities. She hurt more than a noble horse. She has a lot to answer for.

But, first she has to answer to her horse. He will probably be the first to forgive her because that is his nature.

flshgordon
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:35 PM
Very well said Lord Helpus.....

I'm just in disbelief after watching that video that she can even defend her actions :no:

citydog
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:40 PM
That horse has a hell of a lot of heart.

RAyers
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:44 PM
After reading so much presented here, I have to say that I think I can tell who has run a horse steeplechase, a 3-day, or raced.

I honestly feel for Amy Tryon. She is in a "no win" situation. I come about my feeling through my own experince at the CCIs. We had a steeplechase phase where my horse hit really soft ground, took a really funky step, came straight up into my face but then kept going. On video you can see that he subsequently takes several odd steps while I never felt that anything was out of whack. Admittedly, I did think of a moment about pulling up but at the same time it felt like he was just on a crossfire so it was nothing unusual. Because of that I will not judge. It is not my right.

To those who are so convienced that they know that they would have done the right thing:

As my great friend who rode in the National 3-day so many decades ago would say: The stirrups are adjustable so get in the saddle and ride the damn horse. Then tell me because there but for the grace of god...

Reed

RugBug
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:08 PM
She felt the mis-step, Sparky then sighted the fence and Sparky moved forward to the fence, when she felt the next mis-step she was 2 strides out...too late to change her plan.

I wasn't going to post on this, but with that comment, I have to. That comment is ridiculous. That horse was doing some crazy compensations that even a novice rider would've felt and he was doing if for far too long (around 20 strides of yuck). Amy is better than that...and should've recognized that something was wrong.

The horse did look better after the fence...but should've never been allowed to get there in the first place.

Bogie
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:10 PM
I can't believe how vitriolic so many of these posts are :no:. Yes, it was a tragic thing that happened. We should all mourn the end of an amazing equine athlete's career. But his rider did not cause the injury through any irresponsible riding. Should she have pulled up? If you weren't the one riding the horse you have NO WAY to understand what her decisions were based upon. How about just offering some sympathy where it is due?

magnolia73
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:12 PM
Lord Helpus-
Your response brought tears to my eyes. You put into words what I can't.

They just do it to please us. And their capacity to forgive is pretty special.

tecumsea
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:13 PM
i was going to post some thing but after reading what happened and watchng and reading the posts, what I ahve to say is this:

we as a public are not on top of the horse and have the right (may be too much of a right) to judge those way above us. as eventers this is the worst public relations night mare before the 2010 games, 2008 Olympics and what not. the sport has lost lot of ground and with this we now have very short legs to stand on. Instead of destroying one person for their decision, lack of judgment or what we want to call it. we need to be ready in arms to fight for our sport. this could be the turn point, We as a sport are not blessed with the money and thousands of babies that the TB industry has so when one loses and has far worse devastation, they can recover and the public has nothing but admiration for the next hot horse.

we do not have it and this will get the public against us. GET THE VIDOE OFF OF YOUTUBE, SAVE THE SPORT, STAND BEHIND THE FEI IF IT NEEDS IT AND REALIZE THAT ONE HELL OF A RIDER JUST MADE A MISTAKE THAT COULD THREATEN ALL OF US AND OUR SPORT.

I do not want to be confined to a dam arena!!!!

TB_eventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:13 PM
As my great friend who rode in the National 3-day so many decades ago would say: The stirrups are adjustable so get in the saddle and ride the damn horse. Then tell me because there but for the grace of god...

Thank you. To everyone who is judging Amy- you weren't in the irons. You CAN'T know what you would have done.

My heart goes out to both Amy and Le Samurai. Prayers for a quick recovery.

Innocent Bystander
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:14 PM
Whatever the outcome, Amy will get what she deserves.

Unfortunately, Le Samurai did not.

xtwistx
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:19 PM
tecumsea -

Yes, we should get behind the sport. However I think it will be far better press if as a community we condemn acts of cruelty and abuse. How will it look if everybody stands behind this act and supports this behaviour?

It would make every last rider look like a supporter of cruelty. Instead, we should be making the point that this is wrong and not indicative of the vast majority of riders.

Drvmb1ggl3
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:25 PM
After reading so much presented here, I have to say that I think I can tell who has run a horse steeplechase, a 3-day, or raced.

I honestly feel for Amy Tryon. She is in a "no win" situation. I come about my feeling through my own experince at the CCIs. We had a steeplechase phase where my horse hit really soft ground, took a really funky step, came straight up into my face but then kept going. On video you can see that he subsequently takes several odd steps while I never felt that anything was out of whack. Admittedly, I did think of a moment about pulling up but at the same time it felt like he was just on a crossfire so it was nothing unusual. Because of that I will not judge. It is not my right.

To those who are so convienced that they know that they would have done the right thing:

As my great friend who rode in the National 3-day so many decades ago would say: The stirrups are adjustable so get in the saddle and ride the damn horse. Then tell me because there but for the grace of god...

Reed

Glad to know I'm not the only mere mortal to frequent these boards among so many shining examples of human perfection.

To those that keep bringing up Edgar Prado... Barbaro broke down in the first couple of furlongs. Had Barbaro been involved in a stretch drive to the line when his leg went, he may not have been pulled up as quick, because Edgar Prado is as human as the rest of us.

RugBug
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:37 PM
But his rider did not cause the injury through any irresponsible riding. Should she have pulled up? If you weren't the one riding the horse you have NO WAY to understand what her decisions were based upon. How about just offering some sympathy where it is due?

True that I can't say anything to her decisions. Nor can I say what I would've done in that situation.

I can say something to the statement being made that she only felt two mis-steps. The amount of compensation that horse was doing should've been evident to all but the very beginner of beginners. That just cannot be truth...and that is what bothers me.

Horses breakdown in eventing. They breakdown in hunters, jumpers, dressage, reining, etc. It is a fact of life. Just be honest about it for cripes sake. If we chose to participate in a sport that can be dangerous to both horse and rider, we HAVE to realize that there will be injuries, catastrophic or otherwise. Royal Kaliber broke down in front of the world. IIRC, Chris said he felt the horse slip on the fence before...jumped one more and it was apparent. The sport mourned and asked the appropriate questions about footing.

I'm not questioning Amy's decisions, just the spin coming from come close to her.

Reynard Ridge
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:39 PM
What Reed said. Adrenaline does crazy stuff to the brain - of human an equine alike. Unless you were in the stirrups it's all armchair quarterbacking.

magnolia73
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:47 PM
I feel sympathy for her. I don't think she intended harm. I don't think she intended it at all. It is very difficult to watch that video and think all was OK or even just minor- but again - I've never been on a horse that clipped himself while galloping. My first reaction after a horse tripped a couple times and was resistant to pick up a lead would be to circle and recompose myself. I'm sure as a pro, you have belief in your abilities that you can compose yourself a few strides out- especially to what would be an easy fence for you. I guess she learned what we all have learned with horses- never take a thing for granted.

The problem with equine sports is that when you mess up you sometimes take your horse with you. Granted, her horse was already hurt. Add in recent incidents in the sport and you hit some already raw nerves. The best thing- everyone can be upfront about what occured and set a course of action in place to begin to better protect our equine partners. But it is very hard to be rational when animals get hurt because of a person's actions.

I don't know what could be done in this case- perhaps a flag waved or a buzzer sounded to indicate the unsoundness had DQ'd the horse. Probably not practical, but who knows - maybe someone out there has a creative solution.

My other thought- all these injuries and accidents- maybe it is time to scale back the challenge of eventing for a while- obviously it is becoming too much for some teams to take.

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:48 PM
No one here is suggesting that we've never made a mistake. I have made a lot of them. Even mistakes about the care of my animals. I have yelled at my dogs when they were being annoying after a long day of work. I have kicked my horse when he didn't deserve it, and pulled on his mouth when it wasn't warranted, and gotten frustrated more times than I wish to admit, and acted with less than perfect judgement. But I have never pushed on a tired and very obviously broken down horse to continue forward, relying on his huge heart to get us over the jump. Be it the first jump or the last jump, a xrail at home, or a jump in the Olympics, it is the wrong thing to do. How long did it take for Chris Kappler to jump off Royal Kaliber? The first couple strides looked somewhat similar.

Additionally, I do not think AT is a monster, but she very much did the wrong thing. I have always heard nothing but good things about her and her incredible horsemanship and am assuming it was just a serious lapse.

That being said, and us all being human and prone to mistakes, I also feel it is incredibly important that we point out when wrong is being done. It is important as a society to step up to the plate and say "This is not acceptable. We forgive you and accept that you did not mean your mistake, but it is not an ok mistake to make". In general, we have a tendency to make excuses for people in our current world. "You don't understand" or "You weren't there" or "You didn't feel what she was feeling" etc etc extends FAR beyond this incident into the world at large. People explain away abhorrent behaviors every day based on upbringing, stress, drugs/alcohol, the "Twinkie defense" (someone reportedly once was defended in a murder trial by saying they ate too many Twinkies and went crazy), etc etc. It gets ridiculous.

As a society we have a right to say that this is not ok and that is crosses the bounds of decency and humanity. If we never judged anyone for their actions and forced them to face up to and take responsibility for their actions, where would we be as a human race?

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:53 PM
The outcome may have been the same but she should have never put any more undo pressure and pain on this horse by continuing to gallop and jump. Ethics!!!! Or lack there of.:mad:

Every single post Snoopy made is just taking the words out of my mouth. I'm glad someone else noticed the horse was tired too. (That happens, but the other part ....).

J. Turner
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:54 PM
As for capable of pulling up, I think if Edgar Prado could pull up Barbaro who was at the beginning of the race full of adrenaline in an impressively short amount of time and considering how much faster he was going, Amy could've pulled her horse up.

I've never ridden a racehorse but wouldn't it be harder to pull up a horse at the break than in the stretch when he's tired?

I can see how the horse appeared to recover when he sighted in on the jump. Amy seems to have kept her partners sound and happy and competing for long periods of time. I don't know her personally but my bet is that she is feeling crappier than anyone except the horse himself.

monstrpony
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:01 PM
That being said, and us all being human and prone to mistakes, I also feel it is incredibly important that we point out when wrong is being done. It is important as a society to step up to the plate and say "This is not acceptable. We forgive you and accept that you did not mean your mistake, but it is not an ok mistake to make".

And this is being done, by the proper authority, the FEI. Just because we haven't head the results yet does not mean this incident is being brushed off or excused in any way.

I still feel that us peons do NOT have all of the information necessary to make a judgement. We can express our opinions about what we saw, but--fortunately--the FEI will gather much more information (including Amy's interpretation of her experience) before passing judgement. The rest of us can only speculate, opine, and argue about our individual feelings.

solargal
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:08 PM
Glad to know I'm not the only mere mortal to frequent these boards among so many shining examples of human perfection.

To those that keep bringing up Edgar Prado... Barbaro broke down in the first couple of furlongs. Had Barbaro been involved in a stretch drive to the line when his leg went, he may not have been pulled up as quick, because Edgar Prado is as human as the rest of us.

No, he wouldn't. No jockey would.

And to those saying we don't know what we would have done. I do. I have been on a horse in front coming to the finish that pulled his tendons. First stride I pulled him up, the same as ANY jockey does.

You can make the injury worse by galloping on it, or damage the other legs supporting it. When a catastrophic injury occurs it is your job to help the horse get stopped as safely as possible and provide an extra leg to stand on, so to speak. So before everyone says we wouldn't know how we would react in that situation, you are wrong. Some of us do. I've pulled up horses for a lot less. Better safe than sorry. There was no, if, ands, or buts, about what occurred as soon as it happened.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:22 PM
As a society we have a right to say that this is not ok and that is crosses the bounds of decency and humanity.
Wow! Decency and Humanity you say. What about their cousin? You might not know him; his name is Compassion.

saratoga
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:26 PM
Despite all the negatives I can list about horse racing, I've never seen a jockey push on a horse who has broken down, even in a stretch drive. Usually they are pulled up as quickly as possible. I know jockeys who appeared to NOT be making an effort to pull up, or those who have bailed off an injured horse, have been strongly criticized.

I dont really feel like AT is being crucified. I am sure she is a great horseperson and never would have intended to hurt her horse but I think she made a really bad judgement call. I dont buy for a second that she couldnt have pulled that horse up or that she didnt know that something was wrong. For her to claim that, is pretty lame. We are all humans and we all make mistakes and we have to own up to them.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:27 PM
Wow! Decency and Humanity you say. What about their cousin? You might not know him; his name is Compassion.


Like the compassion AT showed her very injured horse?

holmes
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:33 PM
I think the difference between Edgar Prado and Amy is the fact that Edgar pulled Barbaro up before anyone had noticed anything was wrong - as soon as he was unsure, his concern was on the horse and not the race, unfortunately it looks like Amy's concern was not on the horse.


It is correct to say if Barbaro had been 1-2 furlongs along Edgar would not have been as affective is correct - but the reality is 3-4 furlongs into a race, and coming to the end of a cross country course are two very different situations. Of course when you are committed to a fence it is hard to pull up, but when your horse breaks into a trot 20 strides out, no way do I believe you could not pull up there.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:35 PM
As someone said a page or so back (sorry...) what really bothers me is not what AT did or did not do (well, it DOES bother me, but I am not in her Dehners, nor was I on her horse, so it is impossible for me to judge her), but the spin she and/or her camp are putting on it.

The phrases used "could not feel it", "committed to the jump", "could not pull up", "2 strides out" are all trying to absolve her of responsibility for heading Le Samurai into the final jump and crossing the finish line before allowing him to stop.

Had she stepped up to the plate and issued a statement using phrases such as "felt that something was wrong, but I didn't understand the seriousness of the situation", "could hear the croud yelling but I thought they were cheering me home", "Sparky was not pulling me to the last jump, but he had been tiring and I felt that his lack of a solid canter and his coming off the bit had more to do with fatigue than injury"

THAT would have made me think that she was a doofus, but not a liar. At least she would have addressed the issues that we are all struggling with. At least she would have acknowledged that she felt something and made a conscious decision to continue based on her past history with the horse and her prior years' experience at Rolex.

It's this stupid stonewalling (that reminds me of Richard Nixon) that bothers me.

AlwaysHopeful
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:39 PM
Like the compassion AT showed her very injured horse?

Yes. The compassion which has (from what people have said) kept her at his side while he lays in his stall, recovering. That compassion.

hitchinmygetalong
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:46 PM
To those that keep bringing up Edgar Prado... Barbaro broke down in the first couple of furlongs. Had Barbaro been involved in a stretch drive to the line when his leg went, he may not have been pulled up as quick, because Edgar Prado is as human as the rest of us.

First, do you even know how long a furlong is? A "couple of furlongs" is a quarter of a mile. Barbaro broke down within a few strides of the gate. Hardly close to "a couple of furlongs".

Secondly, if a TB breaks down in the stretch, he either runs through it (Charismatic) or drops like a rock. There are few jockeys alive that can stop a full-out stretch run in time to stop a cataclysmic injury.

And yes, there were/are rumblings in the TB world about loading Barbaro back into the gate after he broke through it at the Preakness. We can all play, "What if..." until the proverbial cows come home. Truth of the matter is, what is done is done. I hope the horse recovers enough to at least be a pampered pet. I hope that the rider is treated with fairness. And I will leave it to those who have much more knowledge than I to judge.

beeblebrox
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:55 PM
"GoodyTwo
How some of you are coming to the conclusions you’re coming to based on this blurry, unsteady video is beyond me"

NICE ALTER

Anyhow I have not crucified her and in fact feel very badly for both horse and rider. BUT DO NOT FOR A SECOND pretend that the video was so grainy that people can not see a lame and struggling horse.... IT could have been even more blurry and you could still see the head bob and swapping!

JAGold
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:56 PM
As someone said a page or so back (sorry...) what really bothers me is not what AT did or did not do (well, it DOES bother me, but I am not in her Dehners, nor was I on her horse, so it is impossible for me to judge her), but the spin she and/or her camp are putting on it.

The phrases used "could not feel it", "committed to the jump", "could not pull up", "2 strides out" are all trying to absolve her of responsibility for heading Le Samurai into the final jump and crossing the finish line before allowing him to stop.
Lord Helpus, I see your point. But Amy has made only one public statement, and she didn't use any of those phrases. What she said was this:
“Le Samurai is resting comfortably at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the injury he sustained yesterday but cannot comment pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me and we share a deep bond that is beyond just competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, he will always be my partner. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.” I think that before we judge her explanation, we should wait to actually hear it. It's not fair to hold her accountable for what her fans are saying. I respect the FEI review process and I'm sure that it is slowing down the flow of information to the public, and that's ok with me. --Jess

Gnep
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:05 PM
Every body can have an oppinion.

But please take this @#$%^$ video out of youtube, you did not do our sport any favour by publishing it.

This tabloid mentality is rather disgusting, tasteless junk

texang73
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:12 PM
I wouldnt care if it had been a prelim rider, a pony competitor or the most recent olympic gold medallist, the horse's welfare was severely compromised.

I wholeheartedly agree. Like I said, I was there at fence 31 (the last fence being fence 34), and he was quite tired, abit more than most. And she had PLENTY of time to pull him up before the last fence. PLENTY. My opinion of her has changed.

I am curious to see what the FEI investigation finds.

lstevenson
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:13 PM
I have been really trying to restrain myself from posting on this thread. But I cannot believe all of the people who are saying that it may not have felt that bad to her!

To a rider such as Amy who is that experienced, it feels MUCH WORSE than it even looks. She without a doubt knew that he was 3 legged lame. And he definitely did NOT "lock on" to the last jump. She was really riding him forward and telling him to go on. He would have stopped immediately if asked to, because it was clear that he wanted to.

And I have ridden at this level, and I HAVE been in a similar situation. At the Radnor **, just a few fences from home, my horse felt funny to me and I pulled him up immediately (and he is very, very strong). I jogged him, and he seemed fine, so I continued on slowly to the finish. I think where he felt bad was when one stud (very large ones that day - it was very muddy) had fallen out of a front shoe. It made him feel off for a few strides to have a large stud only on the inside, as it was the outside one that had fallen off. Luckily for me, that was the only problem and my horse was fine. But I can say with all honesty that I would have stopped in Amy's situation.

I certainly can see how having the finish line in sight may cloud a very competitive rider's judgement, and Amy is only human, so I definitely feel for her. But I am a little annoyed by the "stories" given by her and Mark Phillips. As the horse was not "locked on" to the jump, and she was pushing him to keep him going. He would have stopped smoothly and immediately if allowed, as he did at the finish line.

And no way did the vet say that it DEFINITELY was completely torn on the first step of the injury. No one will ever know if that is true. It is possible that it was only half torn when he first became lame, and it was taking the last jump and cantering to the finish that made it go all the way. So the outcome may or may not have been different if she had pulled him up immediately. I'm sure she will regret her decision for the rest of her life. I really feel bad for her.

:no: What a sad, sad situation.

Kenike
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:16 PM
Okay, here's my take as a hunter/jumper/eq rider:

Amy made a mistake, and she's WELL aware of that. No need to hash her apart. Should she have figured out a way to stop before the fence? Yes, but 30 seconds is a blink when riding and something goes wrong. Looking at the video it seems like forever, but on that animal's back it probably felt like just a few seconds. Adrenalin does that.

He was dead lame after what appeared to be stepping on himself, we can see that, she could feel that, but we also know she's not the first or only well-known professional who's made this type of mistake, she won't be the last, and she won't do it again. Anything I have to say about her screwing up here is already known.

I'm jingling for Le Samuri and Amy.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:19 PM
Every body can have an oppinion.

But please take this @#$%^$ video out of youtube, you did not do our sport any favour by publishing it.

This tabloid mentality is rather disgusting, tasteless junk
Gnep you are so right. Sadly the video is most certainly copyrighted by NBC and the person who put it up has broken the law by publishing it. If they bring it down now someone else will also break the agreement they accepted when they purchased the download and post it again.

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:20 PM
Lord Helpus, I see your point. But Amy has made only one public statement, and she didn't use any of those phrases. What she said was this: I think that before we judge her explanation, we should wait to actually hear it. It's not fair to hold her accountable for what her fans are saying. I respect the FEI review process and I'm sure that it is slowing down the flow of information to the public, and that's ok with me. --Jess

This is what Nancy Jaffer reported after speaking with Amy's husband, Greg:

"Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off."

And this is what Captain Mark Phillips says Amy told him:

"Amy said she felt the horse take a bad step at the top of the hill. Then he started to get a bit better and then he locked onto the fence in front of him. At that time, when you're traveling at 25 mph, it happens in a matter of seconds. She felt it was safer to try to jump the fence than to try and pull up."

Judi
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:23 PM
For gods sake... Amy made a terrible mistake... terrible... she will be paying for it the rest of her life. I am as sickened as the rest of you by the youtube video... but do you really think that your rantings on this board... practically calling for amys blood will do anyone or anything any good? Do you feel it neccesary in order to get some sort of justice?

This sport takes a hit every time a horse or rider has any kind of injury... The nasty vehement tone and acusations some of you are voicing about Amy is destructive for all of us.

We all know what we saw.

We all know how it made us feel...

It is natural to want to blame someone... but Amy didn't CAUSE the injury... she made a terribly wrong decision in how to best deal with it... She is being investigated and will deal with the decision as it comes...

It is TRAGIC that a wonderful horse was injured and ended his career.

It is TRAGIC that a wonderful horsewoman made a horrible mistake in judgement that will change her life for ever.

What else do you want?

I pray that those of you who are so mean spirited and hateful on this thread never need the kind of grace that Amy needs from us now.

Please stop painting her as some sort of monster.. She is not... She made a horrible choice that will haunt her the rest of her life...

Really... eventers should pull together in times like these.. we shouldn't tear one another apart.

sigh.. im just so so so sad today.. by the video.. and by this thread..

: (

JAGold
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:27 PM
one_star, I read those comments, too. But they are a) not the same comments being attributed to Amy/her "camp" in the post I commented on (nothing about couldn't feel it or 2 strides out) and b) third hand. --Jess

spacehorse
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:29 PM
I can't find enough words to describe what I felt just watching that video. Sick, repulsed, horrified come to mind quickly. It is so obvious the horse wasn't right, and then to say she didn't have enough time to pull the horse up?! To make that horse jump that fence, and that the horse had enough heart to do it for her. I'm sorry for the horse, and that Amy didn't pull him up sooner.

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:31 PM
one_star, I read those comments, too. But they are a) not the same comments being attributed to Amy/her "camp" in the post I commented on (nothing about couldn't feel it or 2 strides out) and b) third hand. --Jess

Agreed. Amy has only made one public official statement. I was reiterating these quotes to clear up where some of the phrases attributed to Amy may or may not have come from.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:35 PM
Really... eventers should pull together in times like these.. we shouldn't tear one another apart. (

I'm not advocating tearing anyone apart. But I do think the sport of eventing needs to be careful not to circle the wagons too much and deny there was a problem with Amy pressing an injured horse home, all in the interest of "protecting our own".

Because asking a lame horse to gallop and jump is wrong. And if the eventing powers-that-be can't moderate their own sport and address animal welfare issues such as what happened on Saturday, then we have to consider that someone else entirely may feel they need to police the sport for us.

Do we want or need USDA inspectors at events? Because if we don't show that we can police ourselves, then it may be done for us, ala the USDA and the Tennessee Walkers.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:38 PM
Gnep you are so right. Sadly the video is most certainly copyrighted by NBC and the person who put it up has broken the law by publishing it. If they bring it down now someone else will also break the agreement they accepted when they purchased the download and post it again.

No, actually NBC's version which is much clearer looks ten times worse than the UTube version - that was someone's video camera. I can't even watch NBS's version again without getting nauseous. I think it should stay to help prevent this from happening again, and perhaps, save the sport from extinction. Stand behind the horse and you will save the sport. Why is that so difficult to see?

ponymom64
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:38 PM
If AT is half the horsewoman her supporters say she is - she should have pulled him up at the first moment she felt him take a misstep - there is no excuse for any thing else. If it was just a bad step - so be it - she would be a hero for putting her mount above her desire to win. But she did not and now this poor horse has to suffer for her mistake - no doubt she is suffering, too, but I think that surely pales beside what this horse is going through.

Regardless - people make misjudgements - but she should have been honest and said that she made an error in judgement -

wabadou
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:38 PM
My God , do they really believe their own B*llsh*t ??!!

Watch the video!!! I saw it when it happened on the NBC webcast that was clear as a bell and on the grainy youtube video.

She was clearly driving him on, she had 15-20 strides that he was TRYING to break down and she kept urging him on!! He broke down to a trot way before the fence and she kept urging him on !! She kept driving him on when he kept breaking stride and she ASKED him to take that fence and he did steady himself up a few strides before, which speaks to the heart of the horse who was only doing what his rider asked.

As has been stated already, he broke down before the corner heading into the jump. If she'd been a few strides out, I might buy what they are selling but these flimsy excuses are sad and lame ( no pun intended) and at this point, they just don't say a lot for the character of the people perpetuating them.

She made a horrible mistake. Now it's time to have the fortitude to step up the the plate and own it. I'd have a whole lot more respect for those involved in the end.

wabadou
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:41 PM
"As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off."

Give us a break, we've seen the videos, he was still trying to break gait after the jump, hobbling on 3 legs with her urging him on past the finish line.
If she'd leaped off "as soon as he cleared the fence", they would not have crossed the finish line with her on top.

clivers
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:43 PM
Stand behind the horse and you will save the sport. Why is that so difficult to see?

I agree 100%.

eks
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:47 PM
I can't even watch NBS's version again without getting nauseous. I think it should stay to help prevent this from happening again, and perhaps, save the sport from extinction. Stand behind the horse and you will save the sport. Why is that so difficult to see?


Thank you Fergie...

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:49 PM
Let's just assume that she really couldn't pull him up before the next fence (which is a huge load of crap when the horse was trotting, pacing, and cantering all at once), but let's just humor that - what about circling? A 4 star rider can't put in a cirlce or two (at the trot or the trot/canter as it was) to test soundness? We had to keep going to make the time and keep going 20 strides after the fence to make sure we crossed the finish line. (We can tub him in ice that night or something and fix the lameness for tomorrow.....).

wabadou
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:49 PM
Amen, sister...

solargal
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:56 PM
She did not leap off once she reached the finish. She simply, let him stop. I never even see her pick up her reins. How is she leaping off immediately and pulling up when she is resting her hands on his neck?

I think what is causing people to post more negatively is the fact that people are trying to cover her and are making excuses for what is out there for everyone to see.

2Dogs
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:56 PM
LH - yes maam! the Nixon speech!!

Horse very lame, rider chose to carry on. Carry on over the finish line.

I think AT should/could have just said - "the adrenaline made me do it - I saw myself winning and I forgot about the horse - I am so sorry!"

that I could forgive

maybe.

but "wasn't sure what was happening" - ????????????????????????????????

Daydream Believer
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:58 PM
I finally got to see it...youtube does not work at work...it is awful. I cannot imagine that she could not feel that the minute he broke down. I am amazed he did not fall on landing that jump. That was sickening to watch and a disgrace for the sport of eventing to see such poor horsemanship. There was plenty of time and opportunity to pull him up well before that fence. He looked very tired there at the end and surely that had a lot to do with his breakdown. Poor horse...what a shame.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:59 PM
Actually, a good majority of the really vituperative and hateful posts I see here are from people I've NEVER SEEN BEFORE on this forum. It's the "vulture phenomenon"...people come out of the woodwork when something terrible happens to swoop down and tell us how awful eventing is. :no:

Not saying only certain opinions are worth hearing, but the far edge of the "lynch Amy" camp seems to be populated by non-eventers.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:01 PM
Really... eventers should pull together in times like these.. we shouldn't tear one another apart.
Judi this isn't eventers eating their own any more. Many, many of these posters are people who have come from other boards to join the lynch mob. They aren't here on a day to day basis, they've just come to feed.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:03 PM
Actually, watching the tape makes me ashamed to admit I am an eventer. I would hate to try to explain that to a friend of mine....
This eventing forum is bothered because others are coming over to see the carnage. You don't have to be an eventer to see what happened. The truth can be disturbing.... but good can come from that too - if.... we stand behind the horse.

wabadou
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:08 PM
People are indeed "coming out of the woodwork".
Are those who don't normally post much, all "vultures"??
Some, maybe. Most? no
I'd venture to say that those speaking out who don't normally are not vultures but rather, caring, feeling horsepeople who were able to view the footage and see for themselves, just how deeply disturbing this incident truly was.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:15 PM
I think people are speaking up too because this is a topic that strikes them to the core. People also have heightened awareness for horses sufffering, I think, because of the Barbaro saga. This is an olympic athlete we are talking about who represents the United States - that's huge.

Daydream Believer
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:32 PM
I hate to break it to you all but I evented for 20 years...I just chose not to compete any more....more into breeding and general riding these days. I think I'm qualified to have an opinion and express it here even though I don't post much on this forum. I love the sport of eventing and it hurts to see it's image tarnished by this incident. I do think it was very poor horsemanship on Amy's part. I always admired her for being a real working class person who struggled her way to the top of the sport but her ride to the finish on that broken down horse was a disgrace. No way was there an excuse for that. That horse was trying to stop and she was urging him on.

clivers
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:45 PM
Interesting post Daydream Believer,
I agree that Amy's hardworking history has endeared her to many fans of the sport and I wonder whether it's inspiring some on this board to argue her defense so intensely - she's a very welcome hero and it's somehow more disappointing and difficult to tolerate the notion that someone we respect so much could show such poor judgement.

Dow Jones
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:48 PM
"This is what Nancy Jaffer reported after speaking with Amy's husband, Greg:

"Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off.""

----------------------------
She did not leap off as soon as he cleared the fence. She went 18 or 19 strides- presumably through the finish line- before hopping off. During that time he broke into a trot and she pushed him back into a canter.

clivers
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:05 PM
"This is what Nancy Jaffer reported after speaking with Amy's husband, Greg:

"Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off.""

----------------------------
She did not leap off as soon as he cleared the fence. She went 18 or 19 strides- presumably through the finish line- before hopping off. During that time he broke into a trot and she pushed him back into a canter.

I know. Inarguably BS.

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:18 PM
Interesting post Daydream Believer,
I agree that Amy's hardworking history has endeared her to many fans of the sport and I wonder whether it's inspiring some on this board to argue her defense so intensely - she's a very welcome hero and it's somehow more disappointing and difficult to tolerate the notion that someone we respect so much could show such poor judgement.

I also think this has some merit. Who among us hasn't admired Amy for working full time as a firefighter and representing our country so admirably so many times while riding difficult horses? Had this been someone we had never heard of that came on as a 4* rider and said they couldn't feel that the horse was breaking down and trying to stop, I doubt there would be so many people jumping to defend the decision.

I am NOT saying she is a terrible person, or doesn't regret her decision, or even that one of us couldn't have made a similar horrible mistake in the heat of the moment.

I am, however, rather appalled that people on here are trying to justify it rather than just saying that it was a tragedy that could have been lessened by a different decision on her part (If not the injury, then at least the duration of suffering, and the resultant backlash). I am also appalled at the idea that people think unless you have evented at the 4* level, had a horse breakdown, or ridden in the Derby, you are somehow unqualified to suggest that a rider at that level should be able to feel when a horse is NQR, and definitely feel it when he has had a catastrophic breakdown. At some point it simply becomes a moral argument, a question of right or wrong. Because I am not a thief does it mean I cannot understand his motives and therefore cannot pass judgement that the choice to steal is wrong? She made the wrong choice and I am certain she knows that. If she doesn't, then she is not the horsewoman everyone applauds her to be.

I have great sympathy for that courageous horse. I have sympathy for Amy who I am sure is suffering mightily as well. I do not have much sympathy for the people who continue to try to justify the pushing of a tired and injured innocent animal.

arnika
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:33 PM
I'm a firm believer in facts and also in believing what my eyes see. I also have evented as does my daughter. I feel badly for AT as IMO she made a very bad judgement call. I saw her ride Le Samurai to the finish and she did indeed urge him on up to and over the jump as well as over the line. Only then did she allow him to stop. I was screaming at my screen for her to pull him up all the way to the jump ( my 6 yo was asking me "What's wrong mommy?).

It is very clear. Once she stops and slides off, she doesn't even bend down to look at his leg, just stands there looking at the people running over to her. Honestly, it seems as if she still isn't hardly aware that there might be anything seriously wrong even at that point. It isn't until he takes his first step and is completely non- weightbearing that her expression shows alarm. I am still surprised that she couldn't/didn't feel the marked uneveness of his stride. She is incredibly fortunate that he has more courage than sense or he might have buckled after that fence and tossed her right into the ground ala Christopher Reeves.

All the jingles I can give to Sparky and my sympathies to Amy. I'm sure she is feeling horrible right now.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:40 PM
Once she stops and slides off, she doesn't even bend down to look at his leg, just stands there looking at the people running over to her. Honestly, it seems as if she still isn't hardly aware that there might be anything seriously wrong even at that point. It isn't until he takes his first step and is completely non- weightbearing that her expression shows alarm.

Or she wants people to think that she's totally unaware of the lameness when they come running, in order to save face .....from the humilition created from obvious greed.

Kementari
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:47 PM
That (not being very concerned at first) actually bears out the idea that she didn't know the extent of the problem - as Reed explained (in fairly plain English, I thought) it just doesn't necessarily feel the way it looks. Unless you have had a horse blow out a leg while galloping to a fence, I seriously doubt you can definitively say WHAT she may or may not have ACTUALLY felt (and even then reactions could be very different from horse to horse).

All that aside, if you have a horse with a serious injury and the vet is already running towards you, you would be advised NOT to start stripping off boots or poking at things unless you are a vet yourself. You are more likely to make the problem WORSE than you are to make it better. In that respect, she made EXACTLY the right decision. Sometimes you have to care more to do nothing than to start bumbling around.

arnika
May. 1, 2007, 12:00 AM
by Kementari;
All that aside, if you have a horse with a serious injury and the vet is already running towards you, you would be advised NOT to start stripping off boots or poking at things unless you are a vet yourself. You are more likely to make the problem WORSE than you are to make it better. In that respect, she made EXACTLY the right decision. Sometimes you have to care more to do nothing than to start bumbling around.

The point I was actually trying to make (apparently not very well) was that I was very surprised that she didn't look at his leg, especially after riding a markedly lame horse for what, 27-28 seconds and 29-30 strides. I can understand not pulling his boots but she doesn't even bend down to see if he is favoring the leg. Period.

To fergie, I wouldn't characterize her actions as due to greed as the horse would have been spun at the jog next day anyway and I'm positive she would have realized it. This is a very good reason why eventers don't run a lame or hurting horse. Not to mention they also love their horses and take better care of them than many other disciplines I know.

Sebastian
May. 1, 2007, 12:09 AM
And, the witch hunt is helping the sport of Eventing how???

WORST thread -- Ever.

Seb :no:

subk
May. 1, 2007, 12:13 AM
Or she wants people to think that she's totally unaware of the lameness when they come running, in order to save face .....from the humilition created from obvious greed.
fergie would you just stop a second and listen to yourself? Now you're speculating on her thought process, which you could not know, and you've characterized her as just plain evil. Do you have no shame?

Drvmb1ggl3
May. 1, 2007, 12:25 AM
First, do you even know how long a furlong is?

Yeah, sure do.


A "couple of furlongs" is a quarter of a mile.

No s%%% Einstein.


Barbaro broke down within a few strides of the gate. Hardly close to "a couple of furlongs".

Barbaro was pulled up right before passing the finish line the first time round. Given that Pimlico is a one mile oval, like 90% of US tracks, and that the Preakness is 9.5f race, then he was between 1 and 2 furlongs into the race when pulled up.

BaliBandido
May. 1, 2007, 12:37 AM
I have not read every post on every topic that concerns this incident, but I had a couple thoughts about it that I am not sure have been mentioned.

Amy does not own the horse, correct? So presumably she rides for an owner, for compensation, where certain expectations are in place. She is a professional whose competitive sucsess has an impact on her financial well being, her business etc.

She is also vying for certain team spots, professional accolades etc?

In the 15 seconds, (judging from the time clock on the video) before they jumped the jump and the 15-20 or so seconds after the jump on the way to the finish line- i wonder what was going through her mind.

I would imagine at first it would be something like- oh hell, what was that? Did he just bauble? Oh yeah, we got a problem here, wait now which leg, what did he do? Are we falling, no- okay, lets see damn I don't know which leg, how bad, Did he clip himself? Do we have a shoe on/off/halfway/stepping on the clip? WTH is going on?

Then, maybe she looked at where she was in relation to where the finish was and had moments where she thought oh God- we are so close, is is doable, are you really hurt or is this something that stings like hell, but is not likley to be something that we can not mend, maybe in time for tomorrow, oh we are so close and so in the lead if we manage to make it. What if I pull you up boy, and it turns out you have peeled back a heel bulb and are being less than stoic about it(!), will everyone call me a quitter? Will your owners, my employers, the team, the coach, everyone think that I just gave it away because I couldn't tell the difference? Will they penalize/fire/etc me because I cost them the chance to possibly own a horse that won Rolex?

I can imagine all of this running through her mind as he continues to gallop on, getting closer to the fence and still he is going. Yes she does seem to be pushing him, maybe still going over it all in her head and not yet coming to a decision- then there is the fence, they jump it. He is still upright, maybe she thinks well, see it must not have been that bad, he would have stopped or he would have stumbled or fallen, he must be just stung badly, in a few more steps it will be over and we will get him back to the barn and get to work getting him right.

Of course I have no idea what she was thinking, what she felt etc. None of can know that because we were not in that position and hopefully never, ever will be. And while I agree there was plenty of time to pull him up, I don't think that was the issue. I think she was trying to make the decision, based on what she was feeling and what was going through her mind about what could be happening, what might happen if she pulled up etc etc. Of course she felt it, she just was not sure what 'it' was and if 'it' warranted pulling him up at that time, in that situation.

Of course now, with the hindsight that is always 20/20 she would have pulled up instantly. But she didn't have the benifit of hindsight, she was living it, making assesments, decisions, risk management, career decisions etc all in the span of about 38 seconds. My goodness that is a short span of time to do all that, it seems much longer watching it afterwards on video already knowing what was going on.

I am in no way making excuses for her choices, I doubt she would be making excuses. However, I can not believe that her intent was in any way to cause harm to that horse. Everything I have ever heard about her indicates she is a caring person who has enough compassion and empathy to work with some horses that may be considered unconventional or difficult.

This was a terrible, terrible set of circumstances. Decisions were made in the heat of the moment, the effects will be felt for much much longer. I do understand the anger some feel as well as the compassion for AT, i think there is room for both, even at the same time.

I for one and saddened that she did not pull up, I do not think her intent was to harm, nor greed the reason she continued. I feel for the horse who so gamely went on at her request, that does break my heart. I feel for all involved and am grateful that I have never been in that position.

When I first saw her and saw what was happening, I too was outraged, it seemed so clear to me on my computer screen. But I did not have her adrenaline, I did not feel what she felt and I'm not sure any of us can make real accurate judgements without having experienced it just exactly as she did, nor will we experience the guilt, second guessing and agony she must be putting herself through. Her reputation, her confidence, her opinion of herself has to just be shattered, it is I am sure devastating and something that will haunt her for a long, long time to come.

I really do believe if she knew then what she knows now she would have pulled up in a red hot minute, I do not think all the accolades etc would have been put before the horses well being. Unfortunatly, that was not possible, that is what mistakes are. Tragic for sure, but intentional I don't think it is so.

I so hope for his eventual recovery, even if just to be a gallant lawn ornament. I hope for her recovery as well.

abrant
May. 1, 2007, 12:50 AM
I have to agree with the other posters saying that I am not horrified as much that it *happened* (as in - a horse got injured) but how it was handled by the rider.

We had a racehorse break down with a similar injury (Discreetly Irish, Arlington Park, 5/12/06 race 2 if anyone wants to suggest it didn't happen). A *racehorse* in the *stretch*, an *experienced* earner of over $100k. It took the jockey about 6 strides to pull her up to a stop. He started pulling as soon as she took the bad step. The video is no longer available on calracing, so I can't prove this, of course.

If a jockey up in the irons can feel a bad step and *know* to stop... then certainly a rider sitting DOWN on their horse can feel 10 bad steps.

But of course, a jockey will feel many more breakdowns than an eventing rider in their career.

And there is some goodness in knowing that eventing riders WILL now be aware of how important it is to pull up your horse NOW. Jockeys will get flak for pulling up a sound horse who took a bad stride... but that's stupid, we all know it, and hopefully that kind of flak will cease to exist everywhere.

I agree that the comments coming from the rider, etc. are ridiculous and they make me angry too. Jumping a horse on a torn suspensory could have lead to a shattered ankle and a messy crash over that jump, a crash that would have required serious luck not to leave horse and/or rider dead. That's scary.

There is a point in your life that you learn that it's easier to say "I screwed up, I screwed up, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm sorry for what I did to the horse, I'm sorry you had to watch that" than trying to defend yourself.

And FYI - Irish was in a brace for about 90 days. She is fine with a fused joint now. It's big and ugly and she had residual pain for some time (hard to keep weight on :/ ) but she is doing much better now and I bred her about 6 weeks ago and she is in foal. She's loffs babies and will be tickled pink to get her own. And with the earlier comment, her trainer will willingly admit to wishing he had retired her long before that race.

Obviously, not an option for this horse, but if it comes to fusing the joint I'm sure he can live a happy life as a pasture horse as I know several horses (including another of ours who has learned to w/t/c/gallop on a fused ankle soundly and always attracts attention from riding horse folks before they are close enough to see her ankle) who have gone on to such a fate.

~Adrienne

tempichange
May. 1, 2007, 12:51 AM
As for capable of pulling up, I think if Edgar Prado could pull up Barbaro who was at the beginning of the race full of adrenaline in an impressively short amount of time and considering how much faster he was going, Amy could've pulled her horse up.

I've never ridden a racehorse but wouldn't it be harder to pull up a horse at the break than in the stretch when he's tired?

The answer to that is no. A horse who runs off the pace like Barbaro rates off the leaders (conserves at crusing speed) before entering the stretch and accelerating to top speed. Think freight train.

The gate used horses are at a stand still and when they open horses are gaining momentum, while they are more lurched onto their forehandsd they are most certainly not at full hilt.

Just as a train taking off, it takes quite sometime to pick up that speed. But when you do you achieve that speed, or greater speed, it takes twice as much force and distance to stop it.

A horse weighs about 1500 lbs, when you apply distance, speed and immediate breaks, those 1500 lbs triples. That is a lot of force on a leg that is shot and on bad footing.

Hence why my orginal comments were along the these lines.

Lynnwood
May. 1, 2007, 12:58 AM
I havent bothered to post and insted have worried on the sidelines about the poor horse and his current condition. But I think I will now.

For all of you whom are defending her .... would you also defend a person like Kris Kappler if insted of pulling Royal Kaliber up in the jump off when he strained a tendon pushed him on to finish those last jumps for the medal?? Somehow I think not...he would be "crucified" as you've called for poor horsemanship and abuse. Insted he felt the mistep; and never hesitated to pull that horse up.

When the next junior rider pushes her lame horse to far and either seriously injurer her horse or her self ...Is well Amy did it and he was locked on the jump going to be a valid excuse?!?!

Maybe she shouldnt be linched by angery public BB's but when you put yourself in a public position, and do something that was reckless; endangered and possibley cost her partner his life you damn well better be Man/women enough to deal with negativity your going to recieve.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 1, 2007, 01:13 AM
I have not read every post on every topic that concerns this incident, but I had a couple thoughts about it that I am not sure have been mentioned.

Amy does not own the horse, correct? So presumably she rides for an owner, for compensation, where certain expectations are in place. She is a professional whose competitive sucsess has an impact on her financial well being, her business etc..

I'm sorry, but you have an assumption which is a bit off...

You are correct, Amy does not own the horse, however "compensation...expectations" etc does not influence Amy's decision about "pressing on" or "pulling up".

Before the gasoline (flame) fire is thrown my way again:

My husband and I are Owners, we also know Sparky's Owner, Poggio's Owner et al.

There have been a number of very experienced, knowlegable people who have stepped up on this subject. Thank you to each and everyone of you for attempting to introduce reason.

Kementari
May. 1, 2007, 01:16 AM
If Kris Kappler had not pulled up and stated that he couldn't tell the horse was seriously injured before the fence, then, yes, I would say the exact same things about him that I have said about Amy. Why on earth would it be any different? :confused:

I think that some of the vitriolic, hate-filled responses on this thread and elsewhere on the internet say far more about the eventing community than Amy's ride, and make me far less happy to be a part of said community than the fact that even top riders make mistakes. :no:

Lynnwood
May. 1, 2007, 01:20 AM
Because it was OBVIOUS that the horse was seriously injured.

I have walk trot kids that could have 1 Noticed their horse was injured and 2 pulled that horse up. For the love of God he broke to a trot...he wasnt all juiced up galloping for home...he was begging to stop!!

She is damn lucky when he did as he was told and jumped that solid 4ft fence that he didnt hang a leg or crumple on the landing and fall and kill them both!!!

gr8fulrider
May. 1, 2007, 01:32 AM
I hope that he is comfortable and becomes at least pasture sound. He seems like a brave horse.

The rider is by all accounts a consummate professional and a good horsewoman. No matter what is said here, or in the press, or by the FEI, it will not compare with what she will carry inside her every day-- whether her judgment or even her intentions were wrong.

As a bystander and by no means an expert of any kind, I find the video very, very disturbing. He was not locked on the next fence because he hadn't even turned to it. Given that he broke to a trot twice, he didn't need to be "pulled up." She could have allowed a few more trot steps to discern that he was lame. She clearly urged him back up into a half-hearted after his missteps. Why she did this and what she was feeling in the irons we will probably never know.

Three observations, though:

(1) she is very, very lucky that this brave horse actually made it over the fence rather than quitting and sending her over the handlebars, or flipping. Then we might not only be seeing the retirement of a horse, but another human injury.

(2) I showed my non-horsey boyfriend the video without editorializing. I just told him that this was the video of the horse who completed but then had to pull out. I didn't even tell him that she'd been disqualified. All he could say was "no. oh no. stop. no." That says it all.

(3) Every one of us has made a monumental mistake that will bother us for a long time. Some of us have even hurt someone-- human or animal-- in the process. Almost none of us has done it in front of thousands of people. I'm inclined to disagree with the judgment call. But there but for the grace of ligaments and tendons and coffin bones and hidden holes in the turf go we.

Best to Le Samurai, and to the sport, and to the loneliest, saddest rider on Earth tonight.

BaliBandido
May. 1, 2007, 01:33 AM
I'm sorry, but you have an assumption which is a bit off...

You are correct, Amy does not own the horse, however "compensation...expectations" etc does not influence Amy's decision about "pressing on" or "pulling up".

Before the gasoline (flame) fire is thrown my way again:

My husband and I are Owners, we also know Sparky's Owner, Poggio's Owner et al.

With all due respect, I am not sure how you can have absolute knowledge of whether it influences her decisions or not. This was not intended to infer that she had been put under some type of undue pressure by the owners in any way. However I assume her financial status may not be in the same bracket as some of the owners who invest in these horses. I do remember some discussion a while back about her decisons on what to do with her regular job and the income it provided and her decision to go full time on the horses.

As a professional, I was once told you were only remembered as far as your last win- not sure that is true but winning is something that makes people come to you with their animals to compete. Winning at certain venues moves you into certain positions with regard to the team, involves qualification critera etc. All of that is included in your success as a professional, which she is. Ultimatly she has to explain to owners why she makes the decisions she does, whether about this, or how fast she brings one along, what feeding program the horses are on, shoeing, conditioning etc. They are relying on her professional opinions.

I did not mean to imply that she was pressured by anyone, or even pressured herself- although anyone who gets to that level, who works that hard, who makes many sacrafices to get there does not do so with out some internal drive and the desire to succeed.

I was only trying to speculate as to some of the things that might have gone through her head during the 30-40 seconds this all took place.

Judi
May. 1, 2007, 01:34 AM
Or she wants people to think that she's totally unaware of the lameness when they come running, in order to save
face .....from the humilition created from obvious greed.

She made an hideous error in judgement. You are now painting her into some sort of monster. I believe you have now crossed a very fine line of slandering Amy. You can NOT know what went through her mind... PLEASE STOP IT!!!!

If it were you on the video and people were saying such things about you I would defend you as well. This is not right to do to anyone.

What greed? If she knew the horse was seriously lame.. yet pressed him on inspite of it for greed... what good would that do her? She knows she would be spun before stadium.... This isn't like winning the Kentucky Derby.. she had another day and a jog before stadium.

Here's a question... What if she was in last place... and made the exact same error in judgement... for the exact same reasons she says... Would you say it was greed then?

Its a 3 day... she doesn't win when she crosses the finish line... I guarantee once she's able to speak on the record you will see how destroyed she is by all of this.. perhaps then you will be satisfied....

Until then.. I guess you'll just keep digging away... Making statements about the evil motivations behind Amy's actions and thoughts.

And no.. I don't know Amy.. And I'm not defending her error in judgement... I just am feeling sick to my stomach at the attitudes toward someone who has always been a hero in this sport... Someone who's life will be forever changed by 30 awful seconds. Someone whom I'm sure would take it all back if she could redo it.. but she can't.

You will not have to live with this the rest of your life... Please.. please.. have compasion.. I would if it was you.

: (

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 1, 2007, 01:39 AM
Listen! None of us were in Amy's shoes. She is a wonderful rider and a talented, caring horse woman.
No one has the right to judge her or her judgement when she was on Le Samuri. You can "Monday morning quaterback" this to bits, but as said countless times before, hindsight is 20/20.
Seriously, no one has the right to judge, and how dare you compare her to beginners!
I was at Rolex. I saw much scarier/uglier rides than hers, but for what ever reason **** happens.
Try walking in her shoes, and unless you've competed at Rolex, you have absolutely NO right to judge. Why don't we rally around Le Samuri as those did to Barboro...which incidentially no one "hanged" his trainer or jockey; why, because **** happens.
SHAME ON THOSE WHO PASS JUDGEMENT!

jlmckinley
May. 1, 2007, 01:41 AM
"from the humilition created from obvious greed."

This has probably been brought up but if she thought at the time that Le Samurai was legitimately unsound in those seconds that she kept going then she knew he would not be a contender for the next phase. So the obvious greed comment is unfounded.

Logic would have it that if one is aware that their horse is injured in phase two of a three day, one would not be driven to finish the current phase. She had nothing to gain from finishing the last fence if she truly thought he was injured; she obviously was not aware of the severity of the injury at that point. Having evented but never been in a situation where a horse is that seriously injured while I've been aboard, I cannot comment on the feeling of riding in that type of situation. As many others pointed out, hindsight is 20/20 and it seems she just went with her gut and made the best decision she thought possible at the time.

My thoughts and prayers are with Amy/Le Samurai and the team.

Kementari
May. 1, 2007, 01:42 AM
Because it was OBVIOUS that the horse was seriously injured.

I have walk trot kids that could have 1 Noticed their horse was injured and 2 pulled that horse up. For the love of God he broke to a trot...he wasnt all juiced up galloping for home...he was begging to stop!!

She is damn lucky when he did as he was told and jumped that solid 4ft fence that he didnt hang a leg or crumple on the landing and fall and kill them both!!!

Unless you were riding the horse with her (and I sure as heck didn't notice anyone else up there), you have NO IDEA how obvious it was to her. NONE. (And neither do your walk-trotters. :rolleyes:) Things do not always feel the way they look, to the dismay (or excitement) of Monday-morning quarterbacks the world over.

She IS lucky that he took the jump well, but the fact that she is lucky does not make her a bad person. If it did, we'd all be evil incarnate, as I'm sure everyone here has been lucky at least two or three times in their lives...

Lynnwood
May. 1, 2007, 01:44 AM
Angery YES!! Saddened by what happened to a great horse YES!!

Do I feel sorry for her, yes. but dont think she should be defened for her bad judgement and I think that what most people are shocked/upset about is that rather than making a statement saying. "I felt him hitch and thought he had clipped a shoe or had a stinger...I had no idea it was as bad as it ened up being . I mad a judgement error in the midst of competing." She acted like the horse wanted to keep going..was fine and taking her to the next jump eagerly.

I feel sorry for her because its she that has to sit next to his stall and see his pain and know ... that while she didnt cause it , she probabley made his injuries much worse then if he had pulled up one or two strides after the bad step.

Kementari: how intresting it seems to me that all her supporters you included stand behind the idea that we dont know how it felt. At what point do you know I have not been on a horse that broke down or had to make a choice to keep going or stop?
Are all the Arm Chair Quarterbacks as you call us that were either at the Rolex or watched the video ;and watched the horse take a bad step then hobble for several strides being urged on by his rider wrong!? Well we must be I mean how could thousands of people who can see a horse limp , stagger , swap leands and even break into a head bobing trot possibley know what she felt. He must have felt just fine....a little stinger that must be it. We must all have no clue:o

lstevenson
May. 1, 2007, 01:46 AM
Unless you were riding the horse with her (and I sure as heck didn't notice anyone else up there), you have NO IDEA how obvious it was to her. NONE. (And neither do your walk-trotters. :rolleyes:) Things do not always feel the way they look, to the dismay (or excitement) of Monday-morning quarterbacks the world over.




Things usually feel even WORSE than they look. There is NO WAY she didn't realize that he was 3 legged lame.

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 1, 2007, 01:58 AM
Seriously, those who critisize Amy need to knock it off. I'm sure she feels horrible. In fact she received a trophy/recognition at Rolex, but she wasn't there to accept the award...where was she? She was with Le Samuri.

Listen, in our lives we've all made mistakes. That's what humans do. (And, do very well) If it makes you feel better to think that Amy is "evil", then I ask you to at least look at the kind of person she is. I would like to remind everyone that she is a retired firefighter. She risked her life to save others. Those who think she's driven by greed are misinformed and are passing judgement without knowing the person. STOP JUDGING HER!!

Kementari
May. 1, 2007, 02:00 AM
Things usually feel even WORSE than they look. There is NO WAY she didn't realize that he was 3 legged lame.

So does that mean that Reed is a bad horseman, too, since he recounted a story about himself not being able to tell something was wrong when the onlookers could?

I was schooling my horse once and we had a nasty crash into a stadium jump. He landed on the jump, but cantered away. I thought for about three strides that he felt a little off, but it passed and I figured he had just stung himself. I took him to the next fence, which he jumped in fine form, but then felt off again on the landing - just for one or two strides again. I checked him to the trot (which, by the way, took several strides - we're talking about a fit horse who loves to jump and to run, whether he is hurting or not), and he was definitely off. It ended up being an extensor tendon strain that took a couple of months of stall rest, though he did come back to 100% (could have been worse, I know). The person who was with me was surprised that I had continued on to the next jump, as it was obvious to her that he was hurting. Well, it WASN'T obvious to me - and heaven knows I wasn't going for the glory by jumping another 2'9" fence in schooling - and I didn't have nearly the adrenaline and exhaustion going on (to cloud the process) that someone has at the end of xc at Rolex! So, no, it isn't always as obvious to the rider as it is from the ground (not that that kept me from feeling bad about riding a lame horse, mind you). The refusal to give a rider the benefit of the doubt (when her past shows she has done everything to deserve it) is sickening - and incredibly shortsighted AND uneducated. :(

Lynnwood
May. 1, 2007, 02:42 AM
incredibly shortsighted AND uneducated. :([/quote]


Now all those that dont like what they saw and have voiced it are uneducated. NICE!!!!!

Just because I dont like what she did doesnt mean I dont hope against all hopes that Le Samuri heals and goes on to live without pain. Nor do I hope that Amy never rides or is on top again. I think she learned the hardest lesson possible.

I hope she is by his side and surrounded by those that can love and comfort them both.

Someone earlier said she is the loneliest rider in the world right now and I am sure that is true. Im sure that facing her mistakes are far harder than any 4 star she has ever ridden. I just hope she learned from them.

Paragon
May. 1, 2007, 02:56 AM
Know what's funny?

It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks. Not one bit. And despite our confidence in our own omniscience and inborn ability to look at a clip of video and decide exactly how it felt to ride that horse at that moment during that competition, we don't know.

So while we all sit back and pass judgements, getting ourselves all riled up over whether or not a blind Chihuahua with three legs could have pulled up a horse after a bad turn in the midst of competition - a decision, I might add, that my friend's toddler (who's never even seen a horse before) could have made, for crying out loud!!!1!!1oneone!! - I hope none of us are honestly deluding ourselves about being 'in the know' here.

Kementari
May. 1, 2007, 02:56 AM
If you do not believe that you can, on occasion, have a horse go lame beneath you and not know for, say 30 seconds, then you are uneducated - though perhaps "inexperienced" would be nearer the mark.

Just because you have ridden a horse that broke down does not mean you know anything about what the ride on Le Samurai felt like. I've ridden horses who went lame, and felt it - usually BEFORE anyone saw it. I've also ridden a horse who went lame and DIDN'T feel it, though it was visible to the person watching. $hit happens. Just because $hit has happened to you doesn't make it the same $hit that happens to someone else. Compassion would be nice around here.

Lynnwood
May. 1, 2007, 03:02 AM
"Uneducated and Inexperienced"....

Grasping at straws now arent we??

I havent called you any names yet Have I ...Miss Kementari??

Like I said you dont have to like my opinions but I havent yet stated anything that would anyway make others think you are less intelligent or experienced in your craft??

Dear this thread isnt about you and me its about a horse..that had the miss fortune of a bad step and bad judgement.

moonstrider
May. 1, 2007, 03:13 AM
I really don't see what the point of this thread is anymore. I think it is quickly degenerating into a bunch of people (on both sides) being incredibly snarky and meanspirited towards each other. It reminds me of the dressage forum!!! ;) I don't think anyone is being "swayed" by anyone else's arguments either so what's the point? In fact, why am I even posting, I should be writing my thesis!

Anyway, I guess my point is, come on people get a life, stop bitching at each other, the world is full of enough ugliness without it creeping into the eventing forum on COTH. Go do something productive, like feeding your horse a carrot and giving him a pat. :)

Ben_and_Jerrys
May. 1, 2007, 06:24 AM
I am truely sickened by that video on a number of levels,
1) AT had plenty of time to pull that horse up, the horse was so lame even a complete novice out for their first trek on the beach could have been able to tell something was not right. The horse couldn't have told her more plainly something was wrong if it had been able to speak!
2) I can't believe there are actually people defending AT, she has made a serious error of judgement that has bought the sport into disrepute not to mention the way she has treated her very brave and special horse.

I for one hope she receives a long ban, and that owners remove their horses from her care, and that sponsors withdraw funding.

I can't see her being welcomed internationally and if I am spectating at any UK events and I see her face then I will be the first to Boo her.

This sentiment would hold true if any British rider had done exactly the same thing.

I just hope and pray the FEI make an example of her, Americans should be ashamed to have her associated with them.

CJ4ME
May. 1, 2007, 07:29 AM
Wow! I stated before that I thought we could both opine that Amy made a bad call and still feel sympathy for her now. I still believe that.


But the anger and vitriole on this thread is such a sad commentary. People are ascribing motives that they can't possibly know and escalating this to a real witch hunt.

For the love of pete, people...Amy isn't some superhuman, she is just a person like you and me. She made a big mistake. Its gotta hurt like hell right now to see her partner injured. If she read this thread she would probably feel much worse, not because is it a thoughtful discussion of the incident but because people who have never met her and know nothing about her except what they saw on a 30 second video clip, are judging her entire character on that one, terrible moment.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, (even if you aren't a 4* rider!) but you only have a right to be holier than thou if you have NEVER made a mistake.

Sheesh...tone it down people.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 07:37 AM
I sure hope none of you are ever faced with the same situation. Your all too perfect. Leave the woman alone. She will be haunted enough. God the internet can be a dangerous things... Bunch of circling sharks~ :no: :eek: :confused:

Amymay
May. 1, 2007, 07:43 AM
QR to Sofiethewonderhorse

I think you sound like a very loyal owner and friend. But there really is no excuse for a jockey of Amy's calibre not to have realised what had happened. Remember this is a professional rider, who will be very attuned to each of her horses way of going. She will also be able recognise instantly when a horse has gone lame.

I think that an apalling lack of judgement was shown by this talented rider, and I feel very sorry for all connected with the horse.

As for locking on to the last fence - the horse may have done this two strides out - but prior to this was stopping - which he should have been allowed to do.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 07:53 AM
somebody lock this thread. I thought it was against COTH BB policy to allow this kind of bashing. Really Far less offensive and nasty threads have been shut down. LEAVE IT ALONE. Funny thing Amy can read this board. Put yourself in her shoes for one second. :mad:

moonstrider
May. 1, 2007, 07:57 AM
Yes Sannois, good idea. I'm suprised it hasn't been done already....

MagicMelon
May. 1, 2007, 08:05 AM
sofiethewonderhorse - I respect that you have a great deal of involvement within the highest level of eventing. However I think you, along with many other of her supporters are simply deluding yourselves. You're telling yourselves what you want to believe.


"Sparky" is clearly seen nowhere near the fence when the first stumble happened. He was 100% obviously lame from then on. He did not come right and get worse again - he was hopping lame and staggering along all the way from the very first stumble through to the finish (I believe someone said it was 25 - 30 strides!). She had LOADS of time to pull up before the fence but blatantly chose not to. The horse wanted to trot, she kicked it on. The horse did NOT lock onto the fence, thats crap! It was simply such an honest horse that it did what was asked even though it was in a great deal of pain.

Im glad Amy feels bad. She should do! You say that "jumping the last fence had no effect on the damage already done" but how on earth was she to know this?? And who says it did not cause more injury? Even if it did not make it worse, the fact is she put herself and the horse in a great deal of danger taking on that last fence with a injured horse! The horse could easily have fallen and Amy may then have been faced with a dead horse.

We do honour the horse - the horse was amazingly honest, but he should never have been put through this in the first place.

Amy IMO was a great rider round the XC until this point. As soon as this happened and she chose the insane option of carrying on - she lost all respect from probably 98% of viewers / spectators. She will never recover from this and I believe it has rightly-so ruined her career.

I have noticed the only supporters for her have so far only been American. Obviously we all support our own countries riders. However, if she had been a Brit (which is what I am) then I wonder if you'd all still be supporting her..... If this had been a British rider I still would have been mortified and extremely ashamed, but I would never support a rider who did this, no matter what their nationality.

_GiGI_
May. 1, 2007, 08:15 AM
I don't often post, in fact I would consider myself you're typical lurker who spends a good part of her time reading but not posting.

Eventing is my sport - I am your average adult amateur at the recognized beginner novice level. I love this sport and all of it's intensity.

I do not feel the need to second guess or judge Amy's decision. I watched the video, I feel horrible for her and Sparky. What a heart that horse has to have kept going for her!

I wish the best for both of them.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 08:22 AM
Funny thing Amy can read this board. Put yourself in her shoes for one second. :mad:


Good...let her and put myself in her shoes...I would NEVER have done what she did. :mad:

Heineken
May. 1, 2007, 08:27 AM
Poor Amy. Poor horse. Sucks for everyone involved. I'm not even going to attempt to justify anyone's actions or some of the things said on this thread but I'm hoping Amy comes through this ok and more importantly, that the brave, game, kind and WONDERFUL horse gets the care and love he deserves. Any horse jumping like that off three legs should be bronzed and sainted. What a HEART.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 08:30 AM
Good...let her and put myself in her shoes...I would NEVER have done what she did. :mad:

are so perfect. Us mere mortals bow in your presense. :no:

MagicMelon
May. 1, 2007, 08:36 AM
Sannois - ummm... would YOU have done what she did?

west5
May. 1, 2007, 08:38 AM
I have noticed the only supporters for her have so far only been American. Obviously we all support our own countries riders. However, if she had been a Brit (which is what I am) then I wonder if you'd all still be supporting her..... If this had been a British rider I still would have been mortified and extremely ashamed, but I would never support a rider who did this, no matter what their nationality.

Why don't people post only what they are thinking without saying "all you Americans" or "all you eventers" or "all you who evers". It does not seem to me that people are supporting or condemning AT out of any "group" need regardless of what the group is.

I think some of the posts have been too vicious, but I do respect the right of those who wish to voice their opinion whether or not I personally agree with it.

I think the thread will remain more productive if people concentrate on what they are personally feeling and don't try to "convert" others to their opinions or point fingers at a "group".

I would like to say to all the professionals who have posted. If "good" is to come out of this situation it could be a discussion with your students about what it feels like to ride a lame horse. What are the options/ what does one do if they suspect their horse goes lame while on top of them. A talk about the difference between stiff & lame, etc. Just a thought to turn this whole horrible mess into something more productive.

SR Rider
May. 1, 2007, 08:44 AM
I consider myself a good driver and once was driving when I had a blow out
of a tire on my car...it took probably a mile for me to react and then to slow down and stop...would some of you think I should have slammed to a halt within 10 feet. Maybe you are right, but you weren't driving the car.

Trakehner
May. 1, 2007, 08:54 AM
What an absolute load of manure...

She didn't know, she couldn't pull him up, wouldn't have made a difference.

No excuse for jumping that horse or continuing on with him...some people either don't care or are so intent on winning, screw the horse.

If we saw someone at our barn jumping their horse as lame as Le Samuri was, we'd be nailing them....Oooo, but it's Amy, she feels bad etc. and it's OK.

What BS...either she's a pro or she isn't...I wouldn't put her on one of my horses. The horse is the victim, not Amy.

shea'smom
May. 1, 2007, 08:55 AM
I have competed in 7 three days, thru Intermediate.
If I was doing 98% of every competition I have ever done, would I have pulled that horse up pronto? Yes.
At a three day that I was yards away from finishing, on a horse that had worked just as hard as I did to get there, that is the dream of a lifetime for most people?
I don't know.
I know Amy knows that she has to finish all three phases on a sound horse.
This whole thing breaks my heart for the horse, owners, Amy and the fans.
I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and she has all the compassion I can muster.
And, yes I would feel this way about any rider.
Yes, it was the wrong choice. Guess who knows that better than any of us.

annikak
May. 1, 2007, 09:00 AM
the point is this..
Sadly *and very gratefully, happily* I do NOT know what I would have done in her position. I have been on a galloping horse, albeit only at prelim, and he DOES at this point in his career know where the jumps are, looks for them and understands the finish line. How is it that my pushy, grabby horse can slow to a trot once we cross? I choose to believe he "gets" it and as far as I can tell, understands the game. I choose to believe he enjoys his job, knows his job and is really proud of his big ole' self out there. I would think nothing less of Le Samuri. Their ride to that point was lovely. I agree he did look tired towards the end, but who's to say what was happening really then? I never saw what I would consider a pushing ride from Amy all thru the course, and I saw plenty PLENTY of rides that were so that day. Amy got the very short straw.

As far as pulling up a horse- I would think on a lovely race track, flat and no jumps ahead, it would be easier and safer to pull up. My heart skips beats at the thought of pulling up a horse heading towards the jump. The visions of something like that evoke total terror. As does the thought of circling him. That would have been a disaster. First the pressure on his leg, she would have had to circle left...ugh. Plus the ropes were there and there is nary room to circle. I have not counted the strides from the next bad step- which is where bad judgement may enter the picture- but I can bet it was within that "oh sh**" of we are committed.

It is too bad for Amy, and great for the riders before her, that we can utube it, and down load it, as you will never be able to question the rides that ended up in horror before todays media blitz.

My heart goes out to Amy and her lovely horse. I understand she is a very private caring person, and her "camp" loves her which means a lot in this sport. This womans career for petes sake, has been saving lives. I can hardly begin to understand what ya'll are thinking in trying to pouce on her in her time of horror.

I wish that those that want to jump on the wagon of finger pointers would just take a deep breath and imagine how horrible she must feel. I hope that no one ever ends up making a call that ends up being the wrong call in their life and having a trial occur without a judge and jury, missing your testimony and facts.

STWH, Make sure that Amy knows we are thinking about her. <<<<jingles>>>>

annikak
May. 1, 2007, 09:03 AM
I consider myself a good driver and once was driving when I had a blow out
of a tire on my car...it took probably a mile for me to react and then to slow down and stop...would some of you think I should have slammed to a halt within 10 feet. Maybe you are right, but you weren't driving the car.

perfect point.

Amymay
May. 1, 2007, 09:09 AM
perfect point.
How are the two comparable though?

The horse practically stopped of its own volition - and was kicked forward not once but twice by the jockey.

I think that those of you who may compete against Amy on the circuit are being rather more diplomatic than those of us that don't - and won't ever.

Either way, it's in the hands of the FEI who, lets hope, will take swift and decisive action.

LockeMeadows
May. 1, 2007, 09:18 AM
It is so easy to sit and judge what you would do in any given situation. Amy had NOTHING to gain by the horse finishing injured. That would lead one to believe that she either A) thought the horse pulled a shoe, clipped a leg, stepped on a rock, etc B) did have time to pull up or C) both. For those of you that think she is the spawn of Satan for not pulling the horse up, it is reassuring to know there are so many perfect people in this world who not only don't make mistakes, but also have a sixth sense. I would love for you to be my Doctors because not only are you perfect, you can also look at a video and know the difference between an injury that hurts for a second (bumping an elbow right on the nerve) or actually a broken bone in less than 30 without even seeing the injury first hand. Good grief.

eventer4ever
May. 1, 2007, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE
Yes, it was the wrong choice. Guess who knows that better than any of us.[/QUOTE]

Great thought.

I don't know how I feel about this situation. Could Le Samurai's career been saved if he had been immediately pulled up? We will never know. I'm sure Amy is kicking herself now, imagine how any of us would feel if a horse had a career ending injury underneath us. Then top it off that it is at one of the biggest competitions in the world, being watched and critiqued by hundreds of thousands of people.

Amy made a decision. It's done, over. Nobody can do anything about it. I'm sure Amy feels terrible and wants to relive those moments in her life.

It's a terrible situation for all involved.

magnolia73
May. 1, 2007, 09:21 AM
A whole lot of people posting are long time posters and very experienced horse people. I only see a few lynching Amy Tryon- and that is quite classless.

The defense of her actions by experienced people does not leave me warm and fuzzy. You are either saying - hey- a **** event rider- someone we allow to ride around a very dangerous course - had no idea that her horse was seriously injured or that she had no ability to stop or go around the last jump. Neither of those explanations are comforting and unfortunately lead me to question her ability and carry that over to whether or not anyone truly has the ability to get their partner around these courses. Obviously, if she truly had no idea than there was a combination of fatigue and adrenalin that altered her decision making ability. If that can not be controlled, then we have NO business asking horses to jump the jumps on these courses.

MagicMelon
May. 1, 2007, 09:21 AM
Here here Trakehner! Agree with all that.

annikak - The horse was NOT coming up to the fence though! It was nowhere near "being commited" when it began hopping. She kept it going for quite some time before even turning the corner to the last fence. She could EASILY EASILY have pulled up. The horse was certainly NOT pulling like any other sound XC horse would be, the horse fell into trot almost immediately but she kicked it on. She could have pulled him up as soon as he went into trot, just ALLOWED him to stop. The fence does not come into it at all, she was nowhere near it at the time.

And with regard to the car blow-out. Absolutely not the same. I am sure if you were in a racing car and knew a bend (jump in this case) was coming up pretty soon, you certainly would have got the brakes on and not just cruised merrily along for a mile!! XC riding is all about reactions, riders MUST be very quick thinking for when their horses get into trouble in a combination or whatever. She had plenty of time to think about it, no excuses at all.

The horse was unfit and I do believe she was pushing the horse. Especially on the last half of the course, if you watch, she smacks the horse a few times on about 3 occassions whilst on the flat just to get it back galloping again....... never saw any other riders do this!

ChampionMercedes
May. 1, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'm not an eventer. But I've competed to fairly high levels in the jumpers. I had a horse land off an oxer and felt him off instantly. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was a speed class and I only had about 6 strides on a bending line to a vertical, horse was definately locked on. Hard right rein and we were able to go around the jump. I hopped off instantly and we got him out of the ring. The vet on call at the show said if I had taken that jump we would've been looking at putting the horse down. It wasn't the same injury as Le Samuri but it was still a career ending injury for the horse.

Watching this video made me sick. This horse was trying his heart out for her, pooring everything into it. That horse could've been at least brought down the trot after the first misstep. All she had to do was take a few strides at the trot to assess the situation. After you almost noseplant into the ground and then feel your horse trantering I don't care if it's 3 seconds, 10 seconds, the last fence at Rolex, your horse comes first. This horse was not "locked on" to the fence. She throws her reins at him and kicks him on the last few strides. Even if she couldn't pull him up, a hard right rein would've taken him past the jump, there's plenty room to go around it. There's no excuse for jumping that last fence. Hopefully the FEI will see that as well.

Those who are saying that maybe she thought the horse pulled a shoe or stepped on himself. Who cares whether she thought it was major or minor. You bring your horse down and figure out the issue first. I saw Ian Millar pull a horse down to the trot and then walk in a HUGE grand prix when he felt his horse maybe pull a shoe, turns out he just clipped himself and Ian had lost the GP. But he walked out of that ring with the respect of everyone there knowing he had put his horse first. If Amy had pulled up or slowed down etc. we wouldn't even be having an arguement even if the horse was seriously injured. There would probably be a post about her wonderful horsemanship and how she was so smart etc. But obviously that is not the case. I do hope she is severly repremanded by the FEI for her actions, and it will go to teach young riders and other upper level riders that poor horsemanship is not acceptable and nobody gets away with it, regardless of your status.

In any equestrian sport, at the highest levels, you have to have the ability to know when your horse is off and instantly assess the situation. It comes with the experience. If she didn't notice that and really felt up there like it was okay to push on, then perhaps the upper levels of eventing aren't the right thing for her and this time. If you want to see some risky split second decision watch some of the Grand Prix jumping jump offs, or a few speed rounds. The riders make split second decisions that can effect both their horse and their entire ride throughout the entire course. Even if you walk into the ring with a plan of where you need to go, it can be instantly be adjusted based on the ride of the person before you, or how your horse feels landing off one of the fences. It's part of competing at the high level, and if you can't handle it than you need to move down until you can.

How long do FEI rulings ususally take?

Angela Freda
May. 1, 2007, 09:32 AM
The defense of her actions by experienced people does not leave me warm and fuzzy. You are either saying - hey- a **** event rider- someone we allow to ride around a very dangerous course - had no idea that her horse was seriously injured or that she had no ability to stop or go around the last jump. Neither of those explanations are comforting and unfortunately lead me to question her ability and carry that over to whether or not anyone truly has the ability to get their partner around these courses. Obviously, if she truly had no idea than there was a combination of fatigue and adrenalin that altered her decision making ability. If that can not be controlled, then we have NO business asking horses to jump the jumps on these courses.
Exactly what I was thinking this morning.

GreystoneKC
May. 1, 2007, 09:44 AM
I am so completely disappointed to have gotten into reading the eventing board at this point. I just can't believe some of the things that people are saying.

I've watched that video over and over again, trying to get into her head. I don't understand it. Nothing makes sense. She had NOTHING to gain from finishing that course. The horse was out and not coming back to the competition.

What would I have done? IT's hard to ever answer that type of question. I've never been on a horse that went lame just before the end of a ****. I have never been on a horse that went lame in the middle of any competition. I'm very lucky. But I have been on horses who have gone lame while riding, and I know that your first thought is usually to assume they stung themselves or something of the sort and see if they work out of it. I would like to assume that she thought the horse had a minor injury and that he would work out of it, which he obviously didn't.

But I am so disappointed to hear everyone on here arguing, bickering, bashing and trashing someone when some weren't even there and all weren't ON that horse. You're not all perfect people and can say "I would never do something like that" all you want, but you DON'T KNOW what you would do if it happened to you.

bird4416
May. 1, 2007, 09:45 AM
I was watching the live feed from NBC and saw it happen. I was yelling "pull up, pull up" as if that would do any good. I feel Amy made a huge judgement error. I feel very sorry for her as I do believe that she didn't realize the seriousness of the injury and wouldn't intentionally have ridden on if she knew his injury was so serious. However, I am in total shock that she didn't pull the horse up. I have ridden two horses that had serious things happen. One cracked a coffin bone upon landing after a fence and I immediately felt something wrong and jumped off to check it out. The second landed after a cross country fence and stepped on a nail with his hind foot. (can't believe it was out there) I immediately felt this and jumped off and grabbed his foot in my hand. I thought he had broken his leg. I definitely feel that someone with the experience of Amy Tryon could feel a serious problem as she has imfinitely more experience than I do. Why she chose to push on baffles me. She has learned a grave, life long lesson and I feel very sorry for her.

TexasTB
May. 1, 2007, 09:46 AM
How saddening and shocking the lack of support from the eventing community on this forum is. :no:

Regardless of whether you agree or not with her decision, it was a MISTAKE. I would be interested to learn some of the errors of judgment that have been made by those who feel the need to put her down.

And it is especially saddening to read the attacks on her character and motives. How embarrasing that some members of the eventing community- a community known for kindness and sportsmanship- have chosen to act in this way.

Amy is aware of her mistake, and is completely devastated by it. So let's leave the criticizing to her and to the FEI in their investigation. What she needs right now is support from her fellow riders- not put downs.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 09:54 AM
Sannois - ummm... would YOU have done what she did?

and neither does any one of us ITS ALL
SPECULATION!!! Until your are in that saddle on a 4 star course you cant say. We would all like to think we are infallable and great horseman BUT we are all human and capable of making poor judgements!

flypony74
May. 1, 2007, 09:54 AM
Sounds like to me that a bunch of you are just perfect, and have never had a lapse in judgement that affected another human or animal. If that is the truth, then you can be quick to judge, but I am certain that none of these critics are as unblemished as they seem to think.

Have you ever pulled out in front of another car, causing an accident (and possibly human injury)? Have you ever made a financial decision that negatively impacted your family? Have you ever let your child enter a situation that in hindsight, you shouldn't have (maybe they got injured, injured someone else, or got in serious trouble)? And, of course, have you ever been in the irons and made a bad judgement call? If you've been riding for any amount of time, I can bet you have. I'm normal human being, and I've made a LOT of mistakes (some of which inevitably affect other people or animals), and probably will make more in this lifetime. Because I'm not perfect. Never will be. But I try to do my best, and when there is a mishap, it is a genuine mistake, and I do what I can to make it right. I'm just glad that I don't have a lot of "perfects" in my life to judge me. It is easy to talk smack when you aren't the brunt of the criticism.

Let's let Amy tend to her horse, and let the FEI sort this out. We have nothing to gain with this speculation, as NONE of us know what really happened out there, as we weren't in the saddle.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 09:59 AM
Sounds like to me that a bunch of you are just perfect, and have never had a lapse in judgement that affected another human or animal. If that is the truth, then you can be quick to judge, but I am certain that none of these critics are as unblemished as they seem to think.

Have you ever pulled out in front of another car, causing an accident (and possibly human injury)? Have you ever made a financial decision that negatively impacted your family? Have you ever let your child enter a situation that in hindsight, you shouldn't have (maybe they got injured, injured someone else, or got in serious trouble)? And, of course, have you ever been in the irons and made a bad judgement call? If you've been riding for any amount of time, I can bet you have. I'm normal human being, and I've made a LOT of mistakes (some of which inevitably affect other people or animals), and probably will make more in this lifetime. Because I'm not perfect. Never will be. But I try to do my best, and when there is a mishap, it is a genuine mistake, and I do what I can to make it right. I'm just glad that I don't have a lot of "perfects" in my life to judge me. It is easy to talk smack when you aren't the brunt of the criticism.

Let's let Amy tend to her horse, and let the FEI sort this out. We have nothing to gain with this speculation, as NONE of us know what really happened out there, as we weren't in the saddle.
Now WHY cant we let it lie!
:confused:

deltawave
May. 1, 2007, 10:00 AM
Listen to yourselves, people. In the guise of defending or attacking someone who's not even HERE, this has turned into a total, bitchy snark-fest. This isn't even about the incident, the horse, or the rider any more. :rolleyes: Gotta go now. Life goes on and I don't want to lose respect for any more people whose opinions I've always respected. :no: I hope the moderators lock these threads and we can have our normal discourse again. :sigh:

Firefox
May. 1, 2007, 10:01 AM
Here is a statement from Amy found on eventing etc.com

Statement From Amy Tryon

April 29, 2007

“Le Samurai is resting comfortably at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the injury he sustained yesterday but cannot comment pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me and we share a deep bond that is beyond just competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, he will always be my partner. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.”

buschkn
May. 1, 2007, 10:01 AM
I do not think she had malicious intent. I do not know what she was thinking, but I do have a hard time buying that she thought he only took 2 missteps and was then fine and "Locked on".

There are people on here being unreasonable and hateful. But I think aside from the fact that she did the absolute wrong thing in that situation, the response from her supporters/representatives has been inconsistent.

On one hand I am hearing "It felt different from the saddle, she didn't know he was lame" and on the other hand "He was locked on, she knew it was bad but couldn't pull him up just then".

I don't buy either one, but I don't think she was intentionally being malicious. However, nor was she intentionally being malevolent to a game and injured horse. Sometimes ignoring a problem is as bad as causing it, and that is true for society in general.

Tap2Tango
May. 1, 2007, 10:03 AM
I think some of the eventers here are giving the color breeders on the SHB a run for their money ;)
I'm not an eventer, but it sure did look like the horse was in quite a bit of pain. With out any of us being on the horse, it is tough to judge.
However, in the heat of the moment I think it can be tough to realize what is going on. Last year at WEF Todd Minikus's mount Flier came off a jump pretty lame. Everyone was shouting for him to get off. It took him a second to realize how bad the injury was. I believe the injury wound up being soft tissue. (the horse recovered and is back to showing again)

So I guess I am on the fence with the situation. Just thought I'd share my .02...

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 10:04 AM
are so perfect. Us mere mortals bow in your presense. :no:


It is not about being perfect...it is about KNOWING your horse, when something is wrong, pulling up etc. Hey I am not the only one to feel this way...the ground jury DQ'd her and refered the matter to the FEI on allegations of abuse. So it seems that I am one of FOUR who feels the same way. If you feel you must bow in my presense then feel free...who I am I to stop you!! Oh and whilst your down there...