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Firefox
May. 9, 2007, 01:41 PM
See, IMO, LS looked BETTER after the fence than before. In fact, if I had only seen footage of after the fence, I never would believe he was so three legged before the fence. I DIDN'T see AT pushing and kicking him over the finish line. He seemed more than willing at that point to continue on. Again..this is my opinion.

thats what I thought to that the last strides before she pulled up looked normal.

subk
May. 9, 2007, 01:54 PM
#1 - are these videos footage of the Hugh-Carr broadcast or are they spectator taken video?
#2 - If the Karen/Teddy video is in fact copyrighted material and comes to the attention of the copyright owners, I have no doubt it will be taken done. But, it probably isn't getting nearly as much traffic or attention as the CLEARLY infringed LS footage.
"Broadcast rights" often refer to the rights to broadcast the event itself--not just the right to broadcast the video specifically filmed by the holder of the rights. In other words no one other than Hugh-Carr has the right to broadcast anything regardless of the source of the video. (IF that is in fact the contract they have with Equestrian Events!) Legally, putting the video on UTube may be thought as "broadcast," although there still may be some legal debate.

Unless you are familiar with the contract between Equestrian Events who put on Rolex and the owners of the NBC footage (Hugh-Carr?) you will not know if it is a copyright infringement, although if I were a betting woman I'd say it was an infringement and it doesn't matter if it was a pirated copy or a video from an original source.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 01:56 PM
What really hits home is the fact that she jumped another fence out of that un-gait. If she hadn't jumped the fence (and risked so much more danger), I think it wouldn't have smacked me in the face quite as much.
P.S. Why are you talking about copyright infringements, etc. like, who cares anyway?

vineyridge
May. 9, 2007, 02:00 PM
I'm willing to shell out my eight bucks, but I'm on dial-up. Figure the download will take a couple of days at my speed. :no: However, I could go to my aunt's and download on her computer, which does have DSL.

Is it possible to download directly to DVD, or would I have to go through her hard drive first?

Oh, and would someone please re-post the URL for the download. :)

Seven
May. 9, 2007, 02:03 PM
http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp

ravenclaw
May. 9, 2007, 02:06 PM
See, IMO, LS looked BETTER after the fence than before. In fact, if I had only seen footage of after the fence, I never would believe he was so three legged before the fence. I DIDN'T see AT pushing and kicking him over the finish line. He seemed more than willing at that point to continue on. Again..this is my opinion.

I had told my husband about the whole situation. When he saw the part that NBC showed (over the last jump and going to the finish line) he said "The horse looks okay." Sparky was quite lame for about 10 strides, then he looked better when he started cantering again. He only looked really lame again after they crossed the finish line and came down to a trot.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Amy whipped Sparky after the lame steps. I wasn't at Rolex, but I watched the youtube video more than once and I never saw that. Coming up to the last jump, it looked like she adjusted her reins. But that's all I saw...that she was adjusting the reins. After he took the really lame steps, it looked to me like she took her leg off and just let him coast the rest of the way.

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 02:07 PM
P.S. Why are you talking about copyright infringements, etc. like, who cares anyway?

Because this thread doesn't evolve around what you want to talk about.

There was an insinuation made a page or so back that the youtube video was taken down because the leaders of equestrian sport didn't want it seen. Some of us are were pointing out how ridiculous that statement is.

wlrottge
May. 9, 2007, 02:18 PM
Just a warning, we bought the videos before Rolex started and when we downloaded them (as available), they were ~750 megs EACH. I think there is something on the order of 6 videos.

And..... it requires downloading a license every time you play one of them.

Row Wisco, Row!
May. 9, 2007, 02:43 PM
What really hits home is the fact that she jumped another fence out of that un-gait. If she hadn't jumped the fence (and risked so much more danger), I think it wouldn't have smacked me in the face quite as much.
P.S. Why are you talking about copyright infringements, etc. like, who cares anyway?

Because when people STEAL it makes everything more expensive for the rest of us. I don't care what you take or how entitled you feel. It's called basic human decency - exhibiting some semblance of integrity is a good thing :no:

If people are so riled up about paying a whole $8 to see the AT/LS footage (not sure why you'd really want to...), or the footage of the WHOLE event (best deal EVER), maybe they need to get off the internet and go mow a lawn or flip burgers and make the money. If it's vital that you see it and $8 is going to make or break you, you really have bigger issues....

subk
May. 9, 2007, 02:48 PM
P.S. Why are you talking about copyright infringements, etc. like, who cares anyway?
Poopoo you guys are adament that you can foam at the mouth with any amount of hearsay, gossip, supposition, mind reading and making up of the facts and it's just fine since you have a RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION. Well I get a right to my opinion too, and I'm as on topic as anybody else. Get over yourself.

canterlope
May. 9, 2007, 03:12 PM
Wrong. That is not fact. There has been no ruling yet as far as I know. The FEI is investigating if she has committed abuse under their guidelines. But you've already got her hung out to dry.RugBug, it is a fact that Amy was found guilty under FEI abuse rules. The Appeals Committee made this ruling which led to her disqualification from the event. The FEI investigation that is currently ongoing is to determine if further action should be taken by. This type of investigation only happens when the Appeals Committee finds the case serious enough to warrant its referral to the Secretary General of the FEI.

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 03:13 PM
Because this thread doesn't evolve around what you want to talk about.

There was an insinuation made a page or so back that the youtube video was taken down because the leaders of equestrian sport didn't want it seen. Some of us are were pointing out how ridiculous that statement is.

Who are you kidding??!... even if the producers for NBC actually had the clip taken down, of COURSE the leaders of equestrian sport didn't want it seen! You think M. Phillips and D. Oconnor and anyone with the FEI thought it was a good idea to have it posted on Youtube?

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 03:15 PM
The PETA people who will get wind of this and go to town on eventing, They have tried it before! :eek: :no:

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 03:17 PM
The PETA people who will get wind of this and go to town on eventing, They have tried it before! :eek: :no:

Which is exactly why "the powers that be" (whoEVER they were) took the freaking clip down.

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 03:20 PM
I had told my husband about the whole situation. When he saw the part that NBC showed (over the last jump and going to the finish line) he said "The horse looks okay." Sparky was quite lame for about 10 strides, then he looked better when he started cantering again. He only looked really lame again after they crossed the finish line and came down to a trot.

I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Amy whipped Sparky after the lame steps. I wasn't at Rolex, but I watched the youtube video more than once and I never saw that. Coming up to the last jump, it looked like she adjusted her reins. But that's all I saw...that she was adjusting the reins. After he took the really lame steps, it looked to me like she took her leg off and just let him coast the rest of the way.
And thats what I saw too. I seriously dont get where the supposed Whipping took place. The term is used willie nilly. Whipping is hand over head repeatedly hitting! Not a wack on the shoulder with a bat! Ravenclaw we must be horrid horsemen as well, cause I watched that Video 10 times trying to see the horrid breakdown before the final jump and the whipping~ I saw the lameness after the jump.
:confused:

Row Wisco, Row!
May. 9, 2007, 03:21 PM
Which is exactly why "the powers that be" (whoEVER they were) took the freaking clip down.

Is that why my favourite clip of Barney the dog ripping on the president was taken down too? Because some "power" was afraid someone would see it and think, oh god, the president and his cronies are fools, someone might see this and head to town with it? :winkgrin:

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 03:23 PM
Which is exactly why "the powers that be" (whoEVER they were) took the freaking clip down.

because it was getting so much attention? I can see it being an infrigment of Carr Hughes but then look at all the stuff on Youtube that gets to stay on. I dont know. I just know that PETA folks are everywhere and they read this forum as well I am sure. :eek:

ravenclaw
May. 9, 2007, 03:27 PM
some "power" was afraid someone would see it and think, oh god, the president and his cronies are fools
Surely, no one thinks that! :p

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 03:29 PM
Is that why my favourite clip of Barney the dog ripping on the president was taken down too? Because some "power" was afraid someone would see it and think, oh god, the president and his cronies are fools, someone might see this and head to town with it? :winkgrin:

UH, yeah RIGHT... THAT will make people think the president and his cronies are fools...

but I digress..

Back to the Le Samurai Video!

Boil that Dust Speck!
Boil that Dust Speck!
Boil that Dust Speck!

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 03:33 PM
UH, yeah RIGHT... THAT will make people think the president and his cronies are fools...



*snorts Kiwi-Strawberry Propel water out nose*

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 03:38 PM
Which is exactly why "the powers that be" (whoEVER they were) took the freaking clip down.

Oh please. :rolleyes:

Let's work through the scenario.

Eventerfan#1 (made up name) downloads the coverage, tapes the controversial section off of their computer and puts it on youtube. It gets taken down by:

1. youtube management because it is clearly copyright material
2. Youtube management by direction of the copyright holders
3. Eventerfan#1 takes it down because copyright holders threaten legal action
4. Eventerfan#1 takes it down because they don't want it seen by PETA, even though it will be broadcast for all of America to see on NBC the following weekend and is available for download for a VERY small price.
5. David O'Connor calls youtube management, asks them for contact information of eventerfan#1, they violate privacy laws, give him the information and he calls EF#1 and requests that video be taken down because the sport will be ruined.
6. M. Phillips goes on youtube and leaves comments about how it's bad for the sport, so EF#1 decides to take down video.
7. etc, etc. etc.


Let's get real...there are a few reasons to take down the video which make sense...none of which include the leaders of eventing having it taken down. :rolleyes:

Doodle
May. 9, 2007, 03:44 PM
Oh please. :rolleyes:

Let's work through the scenario.

Eventerfan#1 (made up name) downloads the coverage, tapes the controversial section off of their computer and puts it on youtube. It gets taken down by:

1. youtube management because it is clearly copyright material
2. Youtube management by direction of the copyright holders
3. Eventerfan#1 takes it down because copyright holders threaten legal action
4. Eventerfan#1 takes it down because they don't want it seen by PETA, even though it will be broadcast for all of America to see on NBC the following weekend and is available for download for a VERY small price.
5. David O'Connor calls youtube management, asks them for contact information of eventerfan#1, they violate privacy laws, give him the information and he calls EF#1 and requests that video be taken down because the sport will be ruined.
6. M. Phillips goes on youtube and leaves comments about how it's bad for the sport, so EF#1 decides to take down video.
7. etc, etc. etc.


Let's get real...there are a few reasons to take down the video which make sense...none of which include the leaders of eventing having it taken down. :rolleyes:


thanks for stating the obvious.. it is really helpful.

The point was: they should have WANTED it down.. .
why are you beating a dead horse?... oops... figuratively speaking of course.

subk
May. 9, 2007, 03:52 PM
thanks for stating the obvious.. it is really helpful.
Doodle I wouldn't be to snide. This isn't exactly a crowd that has shown much interest in logic nor do they appear to have very good reasoning skills. They probably needed the help.

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 03:54 PM
why are you beating a dead horse?... oops... figuratively speaking of course.

That is quite crass.



thanks for stating the obvious.. it is really helpful.

The point was: they should have WANTED it down.. .

IMO, no, "they" shouldn't want it down. Trying to hide and cover-up the dangers of the sport will just make the situation worse. Laying light to them, saying 'yes, we understand that this sport can be dangerous' and 'this is how we've learned from this situation' and 'these are the safeguards we have in place or will be putting into place' are the correct responses.

And I only state the obvious because some people have a real hard time seeing it. :D

Avra
May. 9, 2007, 04:05 PM
Look, the pirated clip was posted on youtube, and it was linked to, here, on the eventing forum. Bob Hughes of Carr-Hughes Productions, posts, here, on the eventing forum. The simplest, most logical explanation is that he saw the clip and asked that it be taken down.

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 04:12 PM
Look, the pirated clip was posted on youtube, and it was linked to, here, on the eventing forum. Bob Hughes of Carr-Hughes Productions, posts, here, on the eventing forum. The simplest, most logical explanation is that he saw the clip and asked that it be taken down.

Forgot he posts here! :lol:

Auventera Two
May. 9, 2007, 05:02 PM
That's 35 for Sannois.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

Auventera Two
May. 9, 2007, 05:06 PM
What possible advantage would AT see in pushing on a horse she knew was seriously injured? You can't have it both ways. Either she made a considered decision ( which, if considered, would not support pushing on, what would that gain? ) or she made a mistake in judgement in the moment.

Who knows. Maybe the same advantage that Tanya Harding saw in doinking her buddy in the knee cap.

Actually - the more I think about it - the more I think Amy T probably had no clue the horse broke down until it was too late.

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 05:11 PM
That's 35 for Sannois.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

Quit Counting! :lol: :lol: :winkgrin: :D

Auventera Two
May. 9, 2007, 05:22 PM
Just trying to help out your book keeper! :lol: :yes: I'd hate for the database to be anything but accurate.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:32 PM
Poopoo you guys are adament that you can foam at the mouth with any amount of hearsay, gossip, supposition, mind reading and making up of the facts and it's just fine since you have a RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION. Well I get a right to my opinion too, and I'm as on topic as anybody else. Get over yourself.

Baaa haa haaa! Get a life.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:45 PM
Let's get real...there are a few reasons to take down the video which make sense...none of which include the leaders of eventing having it taken down. :rolleyes:

The naivete here is incredible ......nah, people don't exert power and influence, nah.......follow the yellow brick road, follow the yellow brick road.

Dow Jones
May. 10, 2007, 12:02 AM
If you are looking for a conspiracy around every corner, chances are you'll find one. But it's equally likely that people will think you are full of...your username. ;)

LeftTurn
May. 10, 2007, 12:52 AM
I'm trying to count lead changes just prior to the lead change associated with Le Samurai's breakdown. It's tough to see because of the cars, trees, and people in the way, but please correct me if I'm wrong:

(Working backwards, and using the times on the NBC/Mediazone video download)

1:18:07 - Changes R to L followed immediately by what appears to be the initial injury
1:17:52 - Changes L to R just as LS is becoming visible on the other side of the white Explorer?
1:17:48ish - Does he change R to L at some point behind the white vehicles?
1:17:41 - Lands on the R after the jump

Does anyone else see this or have I stared at this video one too many times? It's hard to tell because he's so dark and there are so many obstructions.

beeblebrox
May. 10, 2007, 01:00 AM
"LE
Working Hunter

Join Date: May. 7, 2002
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 606

For the person who compared Amy situation with a father leaving a child in a car-seat in the heat---that's comparing apples and oranges!

Ok, so you're telling me you think Amy is guilty because she rode her horse as any rider would at that level event? I'm sorry--but as I've stated before, you can be on a lame horse and NOT KNOW IT!

And no, I do NOT think she should be punished if she made an error in judgement.

If you all are telling me you are perfect horsemen/women, you are LIARS.

Ye who has never sined ( it is spelled Sinned by the way), cast the first stone(for none catholics, roughly translated---for those who have never made a mistake, you can criticize.)"


YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT, WHICH DOES NOT SURPRISE ME. please slip into old english again that was the best part.

PEOPLE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE EVERYDAY FOR ERRORS OF JUDGEMENT AND MISTAKES. THAT IS ALL MANY ARE SUGGESTING, NOBODY ON THIS BOARD HAVE SAID THEY ARE PERFECT. So not sure where that tangent comes from. Of course I knew you would not grasp the example of the the fathers love for his child and still being held accountable for a error of judgement as Amy should be for making a error of judgment with a horse she loved as well. But hey I get your blind dedication to promoting a person who should be responsible for making at bad choice and all cough sputter PUKE.

I doubt anyone believes she is evil but she should be accountable for her decisions while riding in a FEI public event period. JUST SIMPLE LE

The horse was as lame as I have seen, A rider could not have missed that. I was supporting Amy until I saw the video (both grainy utube video and the one I paid 8 bucks for) and she looked down and kept going and the horse faltered all the way until she got off.

Auventera Two
May. 10, 2007, 10:01 AM
With great fame and power comes great responsibility and consequence. When you choose to show a 4* eventer and represent yourself, your sport, and your country in such a tremendous venue on national television in front of millions of people across the entire world, then tremendous responsibility comes with it.

This is why Joe Schmo who lives in Nowhereville can get a drunk driving charge and not too many people care or even know about it, but your State Representative, or the Attorney General, or the President gets a drunk driving charge and a whooooooole helluvalotta people care! ;)

People make mistakes everyday. Even grave mistakes that cost their horses their lives. But when it happens on national television to a horse of this magnitude at the hand of a person at this level, then suddenly it becomes a societal event.

There's a saying I've heard by several public speakers - Followers can only rise to the level of their leaders. I think the bigger picture is that a representative of the sport, and of the horse world at large, has made a grave mistake in the public eye which cost a horse its life, and with that comes huge consequence.

This is the same reason that such a stink was stirred over the Celebration show, where several of the top level Walking Horses in the world were found in violation of the Scar Rule. Here you have big name trainers, with world level horses, and they can't even pass the prerequisite inspection to be allowed to show. The show was shut down, and what's happened since that show is legendary, and history in the making. The Walking Horse world is changed forever.

But funny that horses are found to be in violation of the Scar Rule every single day at local shows across the country, and it doesn't make national news. It doesn't instigate the kind of backlash that the Celebration Show did. Why? Because when you elevate yourself to a level of that magnitude, you become more responsible than you were when showing at the Horsies Are Fun Open Show at the local fairgrounds.

Huntertwo
May. 10, 2007, 10:18 AM
If you are looking for a conspiracy around every corner, chances are you'll find one. ;)

Maybe we should ask that loon Rosie O'Donnell. She seems to have the conspiracy theories down pat. ;)

Ja Da Dee
May. 10, 2007, 10:36 AM
"LE

PEOPLE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE EVERYDAY FOR ERRORS OF JUDGEMENT AND MISTAKES. THAT IS ALL MANY ARE SUGGESTING.

And she's being investigated by the FEI, as well as being QD'ed from the competition.

What about that is not being held accountable?

I think she made an error in judgement. I think AT probably thinks she made an error in judgement (although I can't read her mind so can't be sure). I don't think that she should be strung up because of it.

For those of you that think the UTUBE vid was taken down because of the "powers that be" ... Answer me why the entire 4 days of competition is available for ANYONE TO BUY from NBC for the price of lunch at McDonalds?

Madeline
May. 10, 2007, 10:46 AM
With great fame and power comes great responsibility and consequence. When you choose to show a 4* eventer and represent yourself, your sport, and your country in such a tremendous venue on national television in front of millions of people across the entire world, then tremendous responsibility comes with it.



A2,
How do I put this so that it cannot be misinterpreted? I seldom agree with your posts, but this time you have, IMO, hit a home run. Nice job.

Jealoushe
May. 10, 2007, 12:47 PM
And she's being investigated by the FEI, as well as being QD'ed from the competition.

What about that is not being held accountable?

I think she made an error in judgement. I think AT probably thinks she made an error in judgement (although I can't read her mind so can't be sure). I don't think that she should be strung up because of it.

For those of you that think the UTUBE vid was taken down because of the "powers that be" ... Answer me why the entire 4 days of competition is available for ANYONE TO BUY from NBC for the price of lunch at McDonalds?

Im not saying the "powers that be" took the video down, but it is possible. And why can you buy it still? Because NBC has a HELL of a lot more power than us eventers, and if they want to make money off something no one is going to tell them they can or can not sell the footage. Were talking Multi Million dollar corporation who is FINALLY showing equestrian footage!! The FEI or whoever is not going to try and battle it out with them over something so unimportant to them.

RBO
May. 10, 2007, 01:22 PM
Someone seemed to answer the question long ago about copyright infridgement and the profit motive.

The video rights for DISTRIBUTION of the three day event were bought. Those rights are being protected by having the "home" video not being distributed publiclly or privately... (sort of like pirating a movie by recording it on a camcoder and selling it on the streets).

Mediazone is an authorized distributor of the video and certainly NBC or whoever gets a piece of that $8. And that $8 is really only a 90 day rental...after which you lose permission to play the downloaded video.

indigoecho
May. 10, 2007, 04:56 PM
Well, I am obviously new to this board, and I have read a great deal of the posts. I really feel terrible for Amy and the owners of the horse. What a great loss. I realize that my post may be overlooked but I wanted to give my thoughts as an outsider to the board. It is very troubling and disturbing to me to hear the captain of the team say that she did what many riders would do, as if that makes what happened ok. I think she made a mistake, yes. But to say that she made a mistake and somehow it should be ok and just move on from it is wrong. A beautiful horse was caused to suffer something really horrible because his rider made a mistake. What can be done in the future to prevent that from happening again? It's not her mistake that bothers me so much as the statements made after that seem to dismiss the severity of the situation due to a bad judgement call. If she really couldn't tell that the horse was lame, I personally think that she needs to be a little more in tune with her horses. If she did feel something was wrong, but that he might pull out of it (very possible) or that there was only a little bit left and he was ok (also very possible), maybe there needs to be a shift in mentality for eventing to err on the safe side at all costs. Maybe if you feel that your horse is even getting a little too tired you should pull up. How many injuries would that save a year? That is probably not a popular opinion.

I guess I kind of get the same feeling that I got with the whole Barbaro thing. Everywhere I turned on the sports chanel they had all these people on there saying "This is a isolated tragedy, it is so rare that a horse breaks down like this in high profile races...blah blah blah." What they weren't saying is that thoroughbreds break down all the time in training and low profile races. They don't all break their legs in such a horrific way that Barbaro did, but how many of them end up at the canner or the rescue organization because of injuries? Is it a majority? Well racing is never going to stop running horses that are still growing because of the money that is involved. I hope that the eventing community isn't too stubborn to take a hard look at their mentality or practices for whatever reasons that they hold dear.

Gnep
May. 10, 2007, 06:17 PM
If thats how horses at that level are ridden ????, than compare it with the other horses, look what happens after the Normandie Bank.
The horse is so tired, 9 jumps from home, that it does not react to the leg anymore. So he get a little whupping, and it happens from than on at a regular base, horse does not go AFTER THE JUMP and out comes the stick.
Thats not the way any person rides X-C.
That action alone is enough for a DQ for abuse.

Other riders made the critical decision, to either slow down and except time penalties, or retire, because it is not the day.

By refusing to accept defeat she caused the death of the horse

RugBug
May. 10, 2007, 07:43 PM
So I just finished downloading all the footage and finally watched AT's go. I was expecting to see a VERY fast horse, AT using her whip A LOT, a horse that looked to be in distress for quite some time. I didn't. I saw AT use the whip about 4 times at the end of the course...never after the misstep.

LS was changing leads during the fateful step. The announcers didn't really even make a huge fuss...a few strides into it they mention it might be a bobble or possibly a thrown shoe.

This is SOOOOO not what I expected the whole ride to look like after watching what was on youtube and reading the comments here. The horse didn't look tired until sometime in the 9th minute. He was going fast, but no faster than many others. The horse had a LONG stride and covered more ground for each step. He looked happy to be galloping and to have a rider who wasn't going to try to control every little step. He listened came back to AT wonderfully when asked.

I think I have more sympathy for AT now than I did before I saw the entire ride.

(To me, LS was demonstrating a typical warmblood trait of go, go, go and then "I'm tired now." My trainer and I say it's easy to find the bottom...that place where a horse has worked off the edge and is compliant...of a WB but you may never reach the bottom of a TB).

Ghazzu
May. 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
Somewhere in this whole long sorry mess I seem to recall a comparison of this incident with a case of involuntary manslaughter.

I think that was a pretty good analogy.
I find it hard to believe anyone could truly think that Amy Tryon would knowingly have pushed a seriously injured horse to finish.

She made a serious error in judgment.
For that, she'll likely be sanctioned, and that is just.

But does anyone here *really* believe that she isn't feeling far worse about this than any official reprimand/suspension/fine or anything else could ever make her feel?

tbgurl
May. 10, 2007, 08:31 PM
But does anyone here *really* believe that she isn't feeling far worse about this than any official reprimand/suspension/fine or anything else could ever make her feel?

Exactly. I highly doubt that if she had known exactly what was going on that she wouldn't have pulled up immediately. Yes she made a huge mistake in not erring on the side of caution, but it was a mistake. There was no malicious intent involved and I'm sure she has to live with the guilt of destroying that horse's life for the rest of her own life. Much like someone who causes a fatal car accident. I truly feel bad for her. :(

JAM
May. 10, 2007, 09:41 PM
When some posters state that AT had to have known what was happening underneath her, they get castigated by those who say that (a) those posters cannot read minds and (b) if AT had known what was going on there is no doubt she would have pulled up immediately (thus reading her mind). Yet, many of the same people doing the castigating also suggest that the pain and heartache they assume AT is feeling is more punishment than any "official" sanction could ever deliver, perhaps intimating that any further sanction is not necessary or appropriate.

In truth, the only person who knows what and how AT felt at the time and what and how she feels now is AT herself. Thus, I agree far more with the USEA's official statement ("Amy has expressed devastation ...") than with the USET's ("Amy is devastated ..."). In the end, what she felt and thought is somewhat irrelevant in the face of the objective evidence (the video). But, to the extent what she thought and thinks is relevant, my own view is that her failure to take any responsibility is damning. If she had come out right away and expressed (sincere) remorse and sincerely taken responsibility, I and I suspect many of the harsh critics here would be more sympathetic and more willing to believe both that she had made a mistake or error of judgment (quite serious, to be sure) and that she would not likely repeat that mistake, thus warranting a relatively lighter sanction. But her continuing failure, two weeks later, to take any responsibility leads me to believe that she does not think she did ANYTHING wrong and that, in turn, makes me believe it could happen again.

In that regard, I think AT is being extremely poorly advised by her handlers and close connections. I am sure they think that telling her not to admit any responsibility or to communicate at all about the subject is going to help her with the FEI, but it is causing a public relations nightmare (witness these boards) that I think is going to force the FEI in the opposite direction -- at this point, given the furor this story has caused and the "legs" it has, the FEI will look toothless and stupid unless it comes down hard on her. And, at this point, it's also too late for AT to apologize, express regret, etc. Even assuming she does believe she did wrong and is heartwrenched over what happened (and I make no assumptions one way or the other on those questions), any expression of regret or sorrow at this time will come off, rightly or wrongly, as insincere.

By the way, for those who say I've never been in her shoes, I sort of have. Many years ago, I was in first going into stadium at a lower level event (not 4*, to be sure, but it was 4* to me at the time). In stadium, my horse stepped on a rock or took a bad step, and went 3 legged lame. I pulled him up immediately (took me, a novice rider, a few strides to process the information internally, and pulled up immediately after that), no questions asked in my mind. Luckily, he had apparently just "stung himself" and was fully ok about 30 minutes later. But my point is, that if I as a novice could feel it and react as quickly as I did, I would expect that an Olympic level rider could do it very easily as well, despite the higher speed of XC.

snoopy
May. 10, 2007, 09:57 PM
totally agree....

Anne FS
May. 10, 2007, 10:13 PM
I hope that the eventing community isn't too stubborn to take a hard look at their mentality or practices for whatever reasons that they hold dear.

Hope fulfilled.

The eventing community IMHO does the best job of any of the horse sports in looking unpleasant facts in the face, so you don't need to worry that they'll be "too stubborn to take a hard look". :rolleyes:

Immediately after xc the Ground Jury met and Amy Tryon was disqualified from the event. That's pretty d*** fast. When's the last time you saw something sketchy at a hunter show and had a competitor DQ'd that fast? Did eventers, like the TWH exhibitors at Celebration this year, cancel the event because a top competitor was disqualified for abuse?

Sorry to be testy, but after over 50 pages of this thread, it's getting really tiresome reading all these comments "hoping" Eventing will do the right thing.

Truly, though, welcome to the Board. You will find many, many intelligent and helpful people here.

from the FEI Statement:

"The preliminary investigation was conducted according to the regulations,
whereby the Ground Jury met on Saturday 28 April following the cross country
to investigate an incident of alleged abuse before fence 34. The Ground Jury
collected written statements from the Fence Judges and Sector Steward and
reviewed the video as well as interviewing the FEI Veterinary Delegate, Dr.
Catherine Kohn. The rider, Amy Tyron, was interviewed on Sunday immediately
after the Sunday morning horse inspection and gave her account of the incident.
Following the interview, the Ground Jury referred the matter to the Appeal
Committee. The Appeal Committee, in full possession of all the written
statements and video recording, took the following decision:
According to article 164.4.5 of the FEI General Regulations: “In serious cases,
immediate disqualification with one or more horses from a competition or from
the whole event with a referral to the Secretary General (for referral to the
Judicial Committee)."

LLDM
May. 10, 2007, 10:18 PM
LS was changing leads during the fateful step.


Um, not so sure of that. My impression was that he tried to change leads in reaction to the "fateful step". And all that funky weirdness of gaits that came after was, IMHO, more attempts to keep as much weight as possible of his right fore.

No, she certainly did NOT beat him around the couse. He was very game though the large majority of it. It wasn't until about two strides after the last fence (before the breakdown) when she really pressed him on (as did many others on that course) that he really, really resisted consistantly. It was only occassionaly before that and usually he resisted being rated before a fence, not moving out after. I agree it was after that last little complex she was finding the "bottom" of her (mostly TB) horse.

For comparison, why not watch Phillip Dutton's 2nd ride - the last on course for the day. He lets his horse rather coast up that last hill, he is not pressing - the difference is remarkable.

Maybe this is the object lesson here. What does one do when they find the bottom of their horse?

SCFarm

Anne FS
May. 10, 2007, 10:19 PM
I think AT is being extremely poorly advised by her handlers and close connections. I am sure they think that telling her not to admit any responsibility or to communicate at all about the subject is going to help her with the FEI, ......


it's also too late for AT to apologize, express regret, etc. ... any expression of regret or sorrow at this time will come off, rightly or wrongly, as insincere.

So it's extremely poor advice to not speak out when speaking out will only make you come off as insincere? ;)

JAM
May. 10, 2007, 10:28 PM
Nope -- point is that it was extremely poor advice to have (apparently) told her not to speak up immediately; now, two weeks later, it's too late. (This is assuming, of course, she did believe at the time, or came to the realization shortly thereafter, that she had made a mistake, bad decision, judgment error, whatever you want to call it.)

subk
May. 10, 2007, 10:37 PM
But her continuing failure, two weeks later, to take any responsibility leads me to believe that she does not think she did ANYTHING wrong and that, in turn, makes me believe it could happen again.
You have assumed that how responsible she feels is based on whether or not she has expressed it in a public statement. Why can't she feel responsible and have real remorse, but just not share that with you? Why do you assume she "owes" it to you to share her feelings? The only person she owes a statement to are the horse's owners and possibly some of her sponsors. Just because she's a much watched upper level rider doesn't make her a public figure. (If she had been competing officially for the Team it might be different, but she wasn't.) I think it is rather arrogant of those that think they have some God given right to made a part of this tragedy with a demand for statements and expectations of the horse's medical information. This situation is not about you! Regardless of how rude and demanding you are nothing will change that.


...but it is causing a public relations nightmare (witness these boards) that I think is going to force the FEI in the opposite direction -- at this point, given the furor this story has caused and the "legs" it has, the FEI will look toothless and stupid unless it comes down hard on her.
I seriously doubt that fervor on a U.S bulletin board--specifically a thread where the knowledge of the sport by so many of the participants is obviously limited--will have much if any effect on any decision that the international body that trends strongly European will have. I suspect the official response to be harsh (and in my opinion should be,) but don't fool yourself into thinking this board or public opinion will be the cause.

BarbB
May. 10, 2007, 11:00 PM
I think it is rather arrogant of those that think they have some God given right to made a part of this tragedy with a demand for statements and expectations of the horse's medical information. This situation is not about you! Regardless of how rude and demanding you are .

Thank you for saying that! I have just been speechless at the audacity. And then I have wondered how many of these posters are injuring themselves patting themselves on the back with the bald statements of what THEY would have done. Since there was only one butt in the saddle, it really doesn't matter what someone else would have done, said, emoted...

Jealoushe
May. 10, 2007, 11:06 PM
You have assumed that how responsible she feels is based on whether or not she has expressed it in a public statement. Why can't she feel responsible and have real remorse, but just not share that with you? Why do you assume she "owes" it to you to share her feelings? The only person she owes a statement to are the horse's owners and possibly some of her sponsors. Just because she's a much watched upper level rider doesn't make her a public figure. (If she had been competing officially for the Team it might be different, but she wasn't.) I think it is rather arrogant of those that think they have some God given right to made a part of this tragedy with a demand for statements and expectations of the horse's medical information. This situation is not about you! Regardless of how rude and demanding you are nothing will change that.



Any person who represents their country becomes a public figure and roll model and it is their duty to inform the public and speak to them over matters of controversy involving their actions. Athletes, politicians, actors, it is all part of being in the public eye, and when you represent your country any time you become part of that public eye.

BarbB
May. 10, 2007, 11:11 PM
Any person who represents their country becomes a public figure and roll model and it is their duty to inform the public and speak to them over matters of controversy involving their actions. Athletes, politicians, actors, it is all part of being in the public eye, and when you represent your country any time you become part of that public eye.


aw, come on.....is this some sort of official rulebook? cuz I never got a copy....

the fact that the country is full of media junkies does not in any way obligate the people that are being stared at :rolleyes:

Anne FS
May. 10, 2007, 11:14 PM
Nope -- point is that it was extremely poor advice to have (apparently) told her not to speak up immediately

Ok, then. Just pointing out that your original post said "IS being extremely poorly advised ..... telling her not to admit responsibility." Present tense, not "was." So now she's no longer being poorly advised and the advice is good not to speak out.
Got it; thanks for the clarification.

JAM
May. 10, 2007, 11:23 PM
Amy Tryon does not owe me an explanation, and I never said she did. But I am allowed to form my own opinion based on the objective facts that are out there -- the video, the statements made on her behalf by her close connections the day after, and the absence of any other statement by her or on her behalf. She can't have it both ways. Once her close connections (husband, Mark Phillips) affirmatively sought to use the media to try to spin the story, attributing statements to her (and I'm not so naive as to believe they made these statements without her knowledge; indeed Phillips said, "she told me ..."; either she did tell him or he told a bald-faced lie), the "I don't owe anybody an explanation" line becomes far less tenable.

Perhaps you are correct that the FEI will make a decision totally on the merits without any consideration of public opinion (and my understanding is that the reaction in at least some parts of Europe and other parts of the eventing world is even more vituperative than it is here, though I freely admit it is a 2nd or 3rd hand understanding). But the FEI's history of decision making makes me less convinced. More generally, I do believe that organizations like the FEI are keenly attentive to how their decisions will be received by the relevant public. We do agree, though, that regardless whether the FEI acts totally on the merits or is reactive to opinion, or a blend of both, the ultimate outcome is about to be the same.

hb
May. 10, 2007, 11:36 PM
In that regard, I think AT is being extremely poorly advised by her handlers and close connections.

I had heard that the FEI has instructed her not to discuss the situation publicly because of the pending hearing. Kind of like not being able to discuss court cases until the trial is over.

beeblebrox
May. 11, 2007, 12:48 AM
"Ja Da Dee
PEOPLE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE EVERYDAY FOR ERRORS OF JUDGEMENT AND MISTAKES. THAT IS ALL MANY ARE SUGGESTING.
And she's being investigated by the FEI, as well as being QD'ed from the competition.

What about that is not being held accountable? "

Ja Da Dee

The point was some think she should not even be investigated or sanctioned cause she is such a nice person and great horsewoman . That was the argument not that something is not in the works!

Jealoushe
May. 11, 2007, 12:51 AM
aw, come on.....is this some sort of official rulebook? cuz I never got a copy....

the fact that the country is full of media junkies does not in any way obligate the people that are being stared at :rolleyes:

Its not a rule, but it is the right thing to do. Understandable if the FEI advised her not to. It comes with the territory though. Thats why a lot of athletes these days have publicists, to help them do and say the right thing when they are going to be in the public eye. Not saying that eventers need them, just saying thats what has become because of the media obsessed generation! Most likely though, the FEI informed her not to speak?:confused:

wlrottge
May. 11, 2007, 01:59 AM
Perhaps you are correct that the FEI will make a decision totally on the merits without any consideration of public opinion

We can only hope.... many here would prefer that the guillotine were being prepared.

PiedPiper
May. 11, 2007, 09:03 AM
I think the comparison is very interesting. Pulled from a thread from 2000:

Shame on George Morris. He should resign from his positions. We live in a country
too great to tolerate this kind of incident from one of it's leaders. Mr. Morris should have had enough experience not to have such a horrible, tragic accident as this occur. His expertease alone should have kept this from happening.

don't think this board is a bunch of vigilantes, but I do think GM should be hung up the highest flag pole by his tightie whities. The whole thing was COMPLETLY avoidable, but he feels that he is soooo far above the rest of us that nothing can touch him. WRONG!! The laws of physics still apply at Hunterdon the same as at the lowliest hack barn. It would seem he has managed to brain wash all his students into believing he is always right. That fact that the A/O in question returned on a new horse on another day is proof.

Someday, GM will come to face what he has done. I don't know if it will be soon or many years from now. But this was not really a freak accident - it was the inevitable conclusion of a long journey down the wrong path. And there are many other riders and trainers who are traveling on that same wrong road. Maybe a few of them will see where they are headed, and choose to turn back. In which case, this horse's death was not in vain. It may have been the ultimate sacrifice to save many other horse. We can only hope.

magnolia73
May. 11, 2007, 09:19 AM
The point was some think she should not even be investigated or sanctioned cause she is such a nice person and great horsewoman . That was the argument not that something is not in the works!


I have not heard that from anyone on this board. I think all are in agreement that the FEI should investigate. I think people who are saying she is nice or a good horsewoman don't feel that she needs to be beat up on an internet BB.

Ja Da Dee
May. 11, 2007, 09:38 AM
I have not heard that from anyone on this board. I think all are in agreement that the FEI should investigate. I think people who are saying she is nice or a good horsewoman don't feel that she needs to be beat up on an internet BB.

That's exactly how I have understood the thread. No reason to hang the woman, it's not like she took him behind the shed and beat him to death, or was found with a herd of starving horses in her pastures, she made one bad decision at a public venue. According to some posters, she should never come near a horse again.

RugBug
May. 11, 2007, 11:49 AM
Um, not so sure of that. My impression was that he tried to change leads in reaction to the "fateful step". And all that funky weirdness of gaits that came after was, IMHO, more attempts to keep as much weight as possible of his right fore.

Nope, just watched it three more times. LS changes lead from right to left leads and as the right fore reaches the farthest back point of that first stride, he breaks.



I agree it was after that last little complex she was finding the "bottom" of her (mostly TB) horse.

mostly TB? Hardly. The horse is half tb/half holsteiner. I suppose you technically get to be correct with your "mostly" TB comment because you know, he's got Ladykiller and one other TB in the fourth generation back (great, great grandsires)...but your comment is misleading. He's hardly "mostly" TB.


Maybe this is the object lesson here. What does one do when they find the bottom of their horse?

When I said 'bottom', I didn't not mean so tired they can't continue. I meant to a place that they are willingly responsive and obedient instead of grudingly so. It's the place you start to train from. Basically the place where they are willing to learn and aren't fighting the energy. That place is usually pretty easy to come to on a WB...in my experience. Takes about 10 minutes of HARD work.

I thought AT's round looked lovely (obviously until things went so, so wrong). A known difficult horse was being VERY responsive, coming back EASILY when asked. I saw resistance twice...once that caused her to take the long option.

Yes, I still think she should've pulled up. But I have a lot more sympathy for her than I did before seeing her whole round.

KellyS
May. 11, 2007, 02:10 PM
When I said 'bottom', I didn't not mean so tired they can't continue. I meant to a place that they are willingly responsive and obedient instead of grudingly so. It's the place you start to train from. Basically the place where they are willing to learn and aren't fighting the energy. That place is usually pretty easy to come to on a WB...in my experience. Takes about 10 minutes of HARD work.

Not to go off on a tangent, but my husband and I are involved both in eventing and combined driving (the driving equivalent of eventing). In both sports, in our experience, the term "bottom" means reaching the absolute bottom of the horse's endurance.

We see the term used more in combined driving (the physical requirements of a lower level CDE are much more intense than a lower level horse trial). Basically, you condition so that you never reach the "bottom" during the actual event. If horses/ponies reach this point, it is not uncommon for it to affect them so much that they mentally shut down if they ever start reaching that point again.

Personally, our event/driving horse/ponies come out of the barn willingly responsive--and we normally tailor our warm-ups at competitions to leave them fresh for the upcoming phase because their best work is not when they are worked hard or tired. I do realize that a good warm-up is needed before moving onto the more physically demanding work and I also realize that some horses have different work ethics/personalities, but the idea that they need to hit "bottom" before they are trainable does not sound like it creates a positive mental or physical experience. JMHO...

Back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

RugBug
May. 11, 2007, 02:52 PM
Personally, our event/driving horse/ponies come out of the barn willingly responsive--and we normally tailor our warm-ups at competitions to leave them fresh for the upcoming phase because their best work is not when they are worked hard or tired. I do realize that a good warm-up is needed before moving onto the more physically demanding work and I also realize that some horses have different work ethics/personalities, but the idea that they need to hit "bottom" before they are trainable does not sound like it creates a positive mental or physical experience. JMHO...

Back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

Gotchya. Didn't mean to add confusion.

My trainer and I jokingly say it's not hard to find the 'bottom' of my WB's energy. Say, for example, he's been off for a week for an abscess and it's time for that first ride back. He's a horse that needs a lot of work to be rideable (6 days a week), so that first time back isn't fun...he usually goes on the longe and gets his yeehaws out for about 10 minutes and then you can visibly see him go "okay, I'm done now' and that's what we call the bottom. At that point he is rideable/trainable. He's pretty fit, so it's not like we're at the end of his physical energy...we're just at the bottom of his mental energy. His will to be distracted and stupid. My trainer is pretty confident that she can outlast the stupidness: She's not always sure she can outlast the stupidness of some of the TBs she rides. When they decide to be contradictory, they just might carry it on forever. That's the bottom I'm speaking of.

My horse isn't one you can fight with because he just checks out, but you do have to 'force' most issues with him. He is rarely fun to ride on the flat in the first 15 minutes because he spends so much time being evasive. But then he gives in and starts listening, responding and generally behaving himself. It takes those first 15 minutes to find the mental 'bottom'.

I know I'm applying my WB experience to LS and it very well may have no correlation. But you can clearly see the horse stop fighting Amy. That moment reminded me of my horse...so I made that comment. Could be that he was just exhausted...but he looked like loads of other horses in those last 2-3 minutes. Hope that clarifies somewhat....

KellyS
May. 11, 2007, 03:15 PM
I know I'm applying my WB experience to LS and it very well may have no correlation. But you can clearly see the horse stop fighting Amy. That moment reminded me of my horse...so I made that comment. Could be that he was just exhausted...but he looked like loads of other horses in those last 2-3 minutes. Hope that clarifies somewhat....

Thanks for the clarification. Our own experience will always color how we see things--I had a horse that could be considered difficult on cross country, but he was always business and he would have kept going on a broken leg if I had asked him.

That is what makes me so sad about the situation--the horse was clearly asking to be allowed to stop, but continued going despite the obvious pain he was in because that was the only option given to him (and anyone who says that ligament injuries aren't painful hasn't had one yet!). If you ever sat on a horse like that, you know the huge responsibility you have to do right by them, because they will give everything and more if asked.

hightech
May. 11, 2007, 03:15 PM
it was horrible, I was there. I honestly don't think amy knew how badly he was hurt-- your adrenaline is up and so is the horse's. I do think she probably hoped he had just stepped on a clip and get him home, fix it overnight, sj and win my owner money and myself a spot on the pan ams team. should she have known as an upper level rider that he was hurt- yes. but many other people have made the same mistake- you just don't hear about it.