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Jealoushe
May. 7, 2007, 12:04 AM
Sorry, but one more



You go gallop and jump that course... bet you might have to catch your breath too. At that point, she was probably spent in more ways than one and just the act of standing might require a bit of concentration. Everyone handles loss differently, you don't know if she spent the entire night awake crying, drinking or indifferent. Others said she was noticeably upset and shaken after the incident.

Some of the judgment calls that are getting thrown at her are pretty severe, unforgiving and probably unfounded.

I do agree with what you are saying, and it is impossible to know after the short video clip what went on. I am just stating what I saw, from my eyes and what I felt when I saw it.

fergie
May. 7, 2007, 12:11 AM
There is no excuse for continuing to run a jump a horse that lame. If she really couldn't feel that then she was riding at the wrong level. Knowing your horse is more than 1/2 of the sport. She better not hang up her fire hat and stethoscope ..... Anyone ever heard Todd Trewin's name in the eventing circle after those Olympics? And rightly so.

Glimmerglass
May. 7, 2007, 12:18 AM
People, you can not discern someone's connection with their horse, nor tell how upset they are or aren't, based on a 30-second snippet on TV.

And you make yourself look pretty ridiculous when you pretend otherwise.

Thank you Erin. A voice of reason finally after a lot of views stated here that are without much merit and several are on the inflammatory side.

fergie
May. 7, 2007, 12:21 AM
Thank you Erin. A voice of reason finally after a lot of views stated here that are without much merit and several are on the inflammatory side.

Gag me with a spoon. Did you wear your brown lipstick today?

jumpytoo
May. 7, 2007, 12:23 AM
OK , I didn't see it..

But what is the condition of the horse now? does anyone know?

fergie
May. 7, 2007, 12:25 AM
Six feet under. It's a sin....

smk7b
May. 7, 2007, 12:29 AM
Some of you mentioned that she didn't seem to care about Sparky, but I rode in a clinic with her before Thanksgiving and that is not the case. I spoke with her during lunch and she was absolutely thrilled about her new mount. Although she seemed a bit guarded at the time, her respect for the horse's sheer talent was obvious. I could tell that she knew this horse was special.
So please try not to make slanderous assumptions from the short interview. No matter what your opinion of what she should have done, please try to respect her while she mourns the loss of her amazing partner. She is suffering enough right now, there is no need for you to add to her pain.

summerhorse
May. 7, 2007, 03:33 AM
I don't know AT nor do I know how she did or didn't feel about the horse. I think that is not really important. What is important (and I did pay to go download the video) was that the horse was badly injured and was obviously injured even to non horse person spectators and a rider of that caliber would know the horse was injured (or should NOT be riding at that level or have horses of that level in her hands IMO). He was almost 3 legged lame, head bobbing, pacing, trying to stop and she kept him going (why? like he is magically going to heal up in time for show jumping? or even pass the vet check?) Any beginner would be able to tell that horse had something seriously wrong much less a professional. The horse was very tired, she was already pushing him BEFORE he broke down, I do not believe he'd have been hard to stop at all. Not if a fresh Barbaro could be stopped going twice as fast or a tired Charismatic could be stopped (also going twice as fast) within a very short time by jockeys who have much less control than an event rider. On course before the incident when he was galloping strongly between jumps he would come back VERY nicely at all but one jump and he was fresh then. Makes no sense that he wouldn't have stopped when he was tired and hurting (and having torn all the tendons and ligaments in my leg once in a bad step you do NOT tear the nerves, they are VERY much alive and that horse was very much in pain).

It was really a disgraceful thing to see.

canterlope
May. 7, 2007, 07:38 AM
Let's take our pitchforks over and burn some Badminton riders now... they lost two there.Wait a second, wlrottge. Before you go sharpening the tines of your pitchfork, you may want to find out the full story on the two horses lost at Badminton. The French horse bled out as the result of a freak accident and the British horse had a heart attack after it was finished. Neither of these two situations involved riders continuing on course after their horses were injured, so I'm not sure the riders deserve a good spiking and/or scorching, but, hey, I could be wrong.

Paks
May. 7, 2007, 08:42 AM
Additionally, when he broke, he probably just broke (given the injury). Did doing the last fence make him worse? Probably not, the damage was done. Did it feel good? Probably not. Did she know how broken he was on the way to the last fence? Doubtful. Is hindsight 20/20? Yes. Would the story have ended the same had she pulled up? Probably.



First off iF the intial injury was a first degree strain which considering where it happened there was a good chance it was (on the flat as opposed to off a jump). Generally stall rest would result in a good recovery. Continuing on an injured weakened ligament would cause the further damage and eventual a 3rd degree strain also known as total separation. Once that support structure was compromised. The surrounding support structures would be put under additional stress resulting in strains in those ligaments and tendons. Additionally the joints would now be bending at new angles causing wear and tear to the cartiledge, bone and stretching veins and arrteries(any one wonder why they did that blood flow test?) So yes doing the last fence would have made him worse. Even if the initial injury was a totally blown lingament there would have been damage done to the surounding support structures by continuing on. And yes continuing on would hurt as I know from personal experience.

As far as her having known if the horse was that badly injured. The rule reads "To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured horse". Note it doesn't say severly or moderately lame or injured horse it says a lame or injured horse. If she couldn't tell her horse was lame she has no business riding at that level.

sketcher
May. 7, 2007, 11:03 AM
When the vets were dealing with the horse, she was holding his head, they were just after the finish line... she looked annoyed, almost in a huff. I was shocked to say the least, I expected tears, or a look of fear or kisses to be given to the horse...something!

I recorded the competition and sat down to watch it when I got home from work last night. At that time, I knew nothing of the injury, the final outcome or the controversy surrounding it. I didn't stay up late enough to watch the whole recording. I have to say that I had the exact same impression - she did look annoyed and didn't seem to be upset about the horse. I was very uneasy watching her as there was something missing in her response to the whole situation - and I don't mean the numbness you get when something goes terribly wrong.

Auventera Two
May. 7, 2007, 11:04 AM
Is it common for a rider to only ride a horse a few months before entering an event of this magnitude and difficulty? It would seem to me that one would want to have a strong partnership with the horse and know their ins and outs like the back of your hand before even attempting something of this caliber.

I understand riders switch mounts in jump offs, but at least in those competitions, the fences fall down, and they're in a flat, perfectly groomed ring. Eventing requires all the gutts you can muster, and I would think it would be mandatory to have worked with the horse long enough that you knew every tiny detail of the horse so you could immediately tell when something goes wrong.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 11:26 AM
She had been riding the horse for 9 months, as in almost a year, not "a few" months.

And yes, she went with the horse to the vet clinic.

Since she lives in Washington state and has horses and students at home, and had gone back to WA a couple of days after Rolex, she may not have been there when the horse was put down... who knows. And, more importantly, why is it any of our business and why does it matter?

You all do realize that there are people participating on this thread who have been around Amy at the upper level events for years and years and years, and probably have greater insight into how she might be feeling than those of you who watched her for 30 seconds on TV, I hope? Sheesh.

RugBug
May. 7, 2007, 11:40 AM
Does anyone else realize that out of the 600+ comments on this topic


10 from RugBut


:lol: I know I can be a horse's ass from time to time, but the name is RugBuG. :lol:

fooler
May. 7, 2007, 11:42 AM
I'm glad you mentioned this, because I saw it too but thought perhaps it was just because of my opinion on the matter. When the vets were dealing with the horse, she was holding his head, they were just after the finish line... she looked annoyed, almost in a huff. I was shocked to say the least, I expected tears, or a look of fear or kisses to be given to the horse...something! In Mark Todds Biography "So Good, So Far" he talks about losing a horse at Badminton, and he tells how he cried, how he was in agony and could barely leave the horses side. When you have a connection with a horse, I couldnt imagine anything else. I can understand there were probably more than a million things going through the poor girls head, but the horse did not seem to be the #1.


Let me show you pictures of my husband and me so you can determine his attitude. He is seldom smiling and often looks very annoyed. When asked, he swears he was smiling. Point is - a person's feelings are not always shown on their faces. Also as an EMT, you must learn to keep a 'flat' face. How would you like to have an EMT with a look of ' ugh this one is really bad' working on you??
As to what she did or didn't feel - I wasn't in the irons and so can not say.

LLDM
May. 7, 2007, 12:09 PM
She had been riding the horse for 9 months, as in almost a year, not "a few" months.


Erin - To be fair, Jimmy W. said something just like that on the broadcast last night (I think it was him, not the other guy). I remember thinking, "Uh, I thought it was longer than that". I understood the point he was trying to make, but it turned out to be a bit misleading.

To everyone else - As far as analyzing the "look on her face", well I don't really think that's in the realm of fairness. Just like I don't believe it's fair to assign any motives to her actions without waiting to hear what she has to say pending the outcome the FEI investigation.

I also think there is a major difference between defending a person and defending a person's actions. Just as there is a difference between condemning a person and condemning a decision that person made. Hopefully, the shock value is wearing off this incident and we can get down to more productive discussions like those on Denny's thread - where it will help the future. We can't, as much as we would like to sometimes - undo the past.

SCFarm

ToucheToujour
May. 7, 2007, 12:09 PM
You can't judge her expression from the TV. Like someone before me said, she's a first responder: in moments like that, her brain is probably reacting like a first responder. Say what you will about what she should have done before the last fence, but let's not pass judgment on whether she was emotional, or upset, or in love with the horse.

wlrottge
May. 7, 2007, 12:18 PM
Wait a second, wlrottge. Before you go sharpening the tines of your pitchfork, you may want to find out the full story on the two horses lost at Badminton. The French horse bled out as the result of a freak accident and the British horse had a heart attack after it was finished. Neither of these two situations involved riders continuing on course after their horses were injured, so I'm not sure the riders deserve a good spiking and/or scorching, but, hey, I could be wrong.

I guess most people don't understand sarcasm when they see it. I figured as hell bent the people around here are on burning AT at the stake, there is fresh meat over there that could be added to the fire. I understand the circumstances around the two deaths there and accident or not, you all should burn them in effigy too! (more sarcasm, FYI)

Tiligsmom
May. 7, 2007, 12:47 PM
It's not about her face, her implied reaction or lack thereof, her time with the horse, her thoughts on the horse, her friends, her first responder, etc....

This is about a rider, who happens to be AT at this time, pushing a horse to jump and gallop after an obvious lameness in competition. This is why this rider, AT, is being investigated by the FEI.

Auventera Two
May. 7, 2007, 12:47 PM
She had been riding the horse for 9 months, as in almost a year, not "a few" months.

The commentator specifically said "a few months."


And yes, she went with the horse to the vet clinic.Since she lives in Washington state and has horses and students at home, and had gone back to WA a couple of days after Rolex, she may not have been there when the horse was put down... who knows. And, more importantly, why is it any of our business and why does it matter?

Because this is a public BB where we are free to ask questions that we do not have the answers to. Or is that not allowed anymore?

How do you think the Barbaro thing would have played out if Edgar Paredo continued to whip Bobby on? I think that's really the issue here. People have a hard time with the fact that the woman either couldn't feel the horse was lame, or didn't care. When in fact it was blatantly obvious through watching the video that the horse was lame. You cannot tell me that a rider at the level couldn't feel that the horse was lame. It wasn't a slight bit of "off." It was an obvious, painful lameness.


You all do realize that there are people participating on this thread who have been around Amy at the upper level events for years and years and years, and probably have greater insight into how she might be feeling than those of you who watched her for 30 seconds on TV, I hope? Sheesh.

Whatever happened to being free to express an opinion, and allow others to express their opinions? No one is attacking each other here. People are stating their views on the situation from where they saw it. Just because you Erin believe that Amy was in the "right" doesn't mean that all other members of this board have to think the same way.

I honestly don't care what your opinion is, and you probably don't care what mine is. But as per the BB rules, we can all express our own opinions, as long as we are polite and respectful to others. I respect everyone else's viewpoints, and respect the fact that each person will have a different perspective. That's just the nature of things like this.

Auventera Two
May. 7, 2007, 12:51 PM
I guess most people don't understand sarcasm when they see it. I figured as hell bent the people around here are on burning AT at the stake, there is fresh meat over there that could be added to the fire. I understand the circumstances around the two deaths there and accident or not, you all should burn them in effigy too! (more sarcasm, FYI)

The problem isn't that a horse had a freak accident on course. The problem is that the rider pushed him on, even after it should have been completely clear to her that the horse broke down.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 02:06 PM
The commentator specifically said "a few months."

See, again, my comments on deriving your opinion on this issue solely from 30 seconds of television coverage.


How do you think the Barbaro thing would have played out if Edgar Paredo continued to whip Bobby on? I think that's really the issue here.

DING DING DING! Why, yes! That IS the issue! Not whether or not she was there when the horse was euthanized. Not how long she had been riding the horse. Not how she looked as she was standing at the finish.


People have a hard time with the fact that the woman either couldn't feel the horse was lame, or didn't care. When in fact it was blatantly obvious through watching the video that the horse was lame. You cannot tell me that a rider at the level couldn't feel that the horse was lame. It wasn't a slight bit of "off." It was an obvious, painful lameness.

Yes it was. As was dissected here endlessly a WEEK ago. When the people who actually know what Rolex is and cared enough to pay money to watch it live or follow it online discussed it.


Whatever happened to being free to express an opinion, and allow others to express their opinions? No one is attacking each other here. People are stating their views on the situation from where they saw it. Just because you Erin believe that Amy was in the "right" doesn't mean that all other members of this board have to think the same way.

Where did I say Amy was in the right? In fact, I'm quite sure I said just the opposite. But, again, that was a week ago...

And certainly, you are welcome to have an opinion. My point is simply that your opinion on how she FEELS is uninformed, and you might want to avoid making pronouncements based on so little information. It's a little bit ridiculous to think that you can discern how someone actually thinks or feels based on a 30 second tv interview. Whether or not she looked sad in the moments after the finish really have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she actually WAS sad.

eventamy
May. 7, 2007, 02:11 PM
Actually, I heard the commentator say 9 months on NBC yesterday. Not a few months.

danosaur
May. 7, 2007, 02:14 PM
ok, I've had trouble pulling up a 14.3 hony when he's locked onto a jump. I cannot imagine even riding a four star event horse in an indoor ring, much less galloping ginormous cross country fences. I think unless you have the experience of doing exactly what amy was doing at that moment, then you have no right to judge her like that. If this horse has the heart that everyone says he did, then that horse would never have let her pull him up that close to the fence. She most likely would have crashed right through it. And if she did think it was him pulling a shoe, by the time she could see if he was working out of it, then it was definitely too close to pull up. Imagine what she's going through right now. would you like bystanders saying false accusations about you in a time like this?

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 02:25 PM
on the production video from the rolex you can hear and really see her the whole way before he took his misstep and all the way to the end, i have to say she encouraged him over the last jump, she was clucking for him to go up to the and over the last jump, she also cropped him after the last jump to make it throught the timer. i think she did this to this horse, no matter if she knew or not. if she has been riding that long and at that level of competition she should have been able to feel her horse and read his actions, if not she needs to go back to riding 101 and learn to read her horse again. anyone that can should have been able to tell, and let me tell you, it is very clear on the video he was tired and pushing himself to the limit for her, if she would have set up and quit pushing him that horse would have probably stopped, he was not moving very fast at all by that time. this makes me cry and i will tell you i will never like her i don't care if she says she didn't know, why should i believe her, people lie all the time, do you think she is going to admit she did this to that horse knowing that something was wrong with him??? no she wouldn't nor would anybody out there that wanted to continue competeing and not be lynched.

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 02:30 PM
i have had the exp. i have 1 barrel horse/xc horse and use to ride another barrel horse that was at nbra competions. and if anyone reading this has ever rode a TRUE barrel horse they are a lot hotter than eventing horses, most are almost uncontrolable)the horse were serious and knew there job. yet if they did something at any point they needed to be pulled back for then they came back, i may have had to fight with them, but i got them back!!! if you are at this level of riding then you should be able to get your horse back, if you can't you don't need to be there. look at the rider on griffendor (however you spell it) she went off course went to jump 12A at the rolex last weekend (by the way she was in first going into the show jumping) it was a 1 stride triple she stopped her horse in between the 1st and 2nd jump and pulled him out because she got buzzed. that's a rider that can control a horse. if AT couldn't pull him back she doesn't need to be there.

Lisa Cook
May. 7, 2007, 02:50 PM
Danosour - did you even watch the whole ride? The horse was not locked on to anything. 5 seconds after his stumble, with the final jump still around the corner and out of sight, he broke to a trot - the horse was slowing down of his own accord.

Auventera Two
May. 7, 2007, 02:50 PM
i have had the exp. i have 1 barrel horse/xc horse and use to ride another barrel horse that was at nbra competions. and if anyone reading this has ever rode a TRUE barrel horse they are a lot hotter than eventing horses, most are almost uncontrolable)the horse were serious and knew there job. yet if they did something at any point they needed to be pulled back for then they came back, i may have had to fight with them, but i got them back!!! if you are at this level of riding then you should be able to get your horse back, if you can't you don't need to be there. look at the rider on griffendor (however you spell it) she went off course went to jump 12A at the rolex last weekend (by the way she was in first going into the show jumping) it was a 1 stride triple she stopped her horse in between the 1st and 2nd jump and pulled him out because she got buzzed. that's a rider that can control a horse. if AT couldn't pull him back she doesn't need to be there.

Great post, I agree with you. Anyone who has ever sat ringside at a top level barrel competition knows how scary it is to watch 1300 pounds of pure muscle galloping down the line to a barrel at Mach 1. But those horses can still be pulled up. Hell, the rider rates them 3 strides out of the barrel, because if they didn't, they would never make the turn! If the horse is capable of responding to a half halt in the heat of competition, then he's capable of being stopped. Race horses can be pulled up. Look at how Becky Holder pulled up her horse. And that other woman pulled her horse up when she went off course.

I don't event, but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him. If there's no stopping him, then you shouldn't be up there. What do you do if the horse "locks onto" the crowd and decides to just jump the fence and go racing out into the crowd? Just sit there helpless and let him flatten 12 people before you can get him stopped?

If a 90 pound jockey can pull up a fit racing Thoroughbred from 40 miles per hour, then there's no reason why a 160 pound rider can't pull up an event horse in between jumps. If they can't, then they shouldn't be there.

But regardless - its very clear that Sparky wasn't racing balls to the wall at that jump. He already broke gait, and he was already trying to stop, but he got whipped on.

Perfect Pony
May. 7, 2007, 02:51 PM
oIf this horse has the heart that everyone says he did, then that horse would never have let her pull him up that close to the fence.

This is what gets me, how the events can morph into a comment like this :confused:

The horse jumped the second to the last fence, galloped on a bit, BROKE DOWN in the truest sense of the word, broke to one of the lamest trots I have ever seen, then was kicked on, head bobbing lame, around a corned and many strides to the last fence.

The horse was in no way running away with her, pulling in any way, and was no where near the last fence let alone "locked on" to it. :rolleyes: The fact that anyone would have any of us believe that ridiculous story is the thing that pisses me off about this story the most.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 03:05 PM
I don't event, but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him.

Again, since you don't event, this isn't something on which you can offer an informed opinion, can you?

It is absolutely true that a horse "locks on" to a jump, and there is a point past which you are committed and cannot pull up safely (at least, not without ripping your horse's head off, and maybe not even then).

But I think most people who saw the video, other than Mark Phillips, are of the opinion that the horse was not locked onto anything yet.

And event horses don't jump humans, so there's no reason to worry about them "locking on" to the crowd. They know what XC jumps look like.

InVA
May. 7, 2007, 03:09 PM
Karen o'connor has had me jump down through a grid and stop my horse in a two stride combination...

I'm just sayin... it can be done

ToucheToujour
May. 7, 2007, 03:13 PM
Kristen Bachman, on Gryffindor, got buzzed BEFORE she went into the combination. You saw her hesitate but the horse was ON the next fence. He's a good boy, and she knows that horse inside and out. She was able to turn him out of the combination. But she was whistled off course before.

(on that note :( poor Kristen. She had such a lovely course)

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
It is not about IF you can pull up. You CAN ALWAYS PULL UP. Anyone who has evented above training knows how to pull up on a horse who has landed on its forehand in a combo and is gonna smash into the 2nd element. If you can get a horse slowed down almost to a stop (and then jump out of a combo) that is not hurt, you can pull up a hurt one. The horse's death serves one purposes now: teaching people when to pull up and that it is always better to pull up than not in any disipline on any horse.

DMK
May. 7, 2007, 03:18 PM
but you rode IN to that combination knowing that was the plan, and I'm guessing you rode it like you had a plan to stop where you did unless you prefer "dumb luck" approach to riding?

Again, it wasn't like Samurai seemed anywhere close to meeting that "no going back" place, but there is a point where it is less deadly to keep going versus getting in their way to pull up. Speed, height and fatigue all play a role in that moment.

ica7059
May. 7, 2007, 03:26 PM
In November I was at the Va. horse trials, and I was riding KILDONAN TUG at the preliminary level. We were in between two fences, and on the side of a very slight hill, when his leg broke. The moment that it happened, i didnt know what had happened. To be honest, the first thing that swept into my mind was that his left leg was caught in the martingale. I really didnt know what had happened, and although we were in first place, (like Amy and Le Samuri) I started to pull him up right away, as carefully as I could. It doesnt matter if you are in first place or last place, you want to do the best thing for your horse. Especially at the upper levels, you have such a bond with the horses your riding, you always try and do the best thing for your horse, as quickly as possible. Tug and I were only galloping at prelim speed, not advanced speed, but it did not take me 3 or 4 seconds to pull him up, it takes time to pull your horse up. Its not easy, and what goes through your head in the moment when your horse breaks down is just absolute chaos. You dont have a video camera inside your head to instantly re-play the incident and figure out whats happened, and in hind sight, you always would do something differently. But the moment when your horse breaks down is terrifying, and although you try to make a decision as soon as you realize what has happened, its not easy, never has been, never will be.

My heart goes deeply out to Amy, le Samuri, And all involved with that special special horse.

Tug's accident was six months ago on Friday, and I stil break down in tears because I miss him so much. Having your best friend break down is not easy, but each day does become easier for me, as I hope they do for Amy.

Again, jingles to all

Gillian

tbluv
May. 7, 2007, 03:36 PM
It was the end-- Le Samurai was tired. It could have just as easily been a tired horse switching leads and bobbling on uneven terrain trying to find that second wind.

Event riders and jockeys should not be compared-- a seasoned jockey can feel a catastrophic break down easier because 1) they are more commonplace in racing and 2) they are running on a flat/groomed surface not a hilly or uneven surface. I'm sure there have been plenty of rookie jockeys that have kept horses running after breaking down. Unfortunately the only way to learn from experience is to EXPERIENCE it. It's a GOOD thing that Amy made it to the level she did without knowing what a honest to goodness breakdown felt like.

The fact that the horse breaking down was the furthest thing from Amy's mind tells me she was just as shocked by the whole thing as we were. She probably later was upset over continuing to ride him. She could have honestly not known-- and to judge someone based on less than 30 seconds is really bold. That is not a lot of time to soak in what was going on... especially when you are staring at the finish line. Would it have been different earlier in the course? Probably... she would have had more time to assess the situation--- BUT the outcome would have likely been the same. The only thing would be that we wouldn't be sitting here questioning her motives if she hadn't crossed that finish line.

It could have happened to anyone.

I remember watching when Royal Kaliber got hurt and the camera panned over to Rodrigo Pessoa and he was cheering and smiling because that put him in the medals. I was absolutely LIVID with the man for being so happy that another horse got hurt. It's a traumatic thing watching an animal get hurt-- especially when the end result is euthanasia. It's even more traumatic when you are the one "responsible" for said horses injuries-- it would not suprise me if Amy's confidence has been shattered.


Le Samurai is no longer in pain. My heart aches for Amy and her family and everyone involved with Le Samurai.

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 7, 2007, 03:37 PM
My heart goes out to you and your horse, Tug. You did the right thing, pulling him up, and I bet that he knew you were doing what was right for him too.

BLBGP
May. 7, 2007, 03:44 PM
I remember watching when Royal Kaliber got hurt and the camera panned over to Rodrigo Pessoa and he was cheering and smiling because that put him in the medals. I was absolutely LIVID with the man for being so happy that another horse got hurt.


If you had watched for 10 more seconds, you would have seen the incredible look of shock and concern on Rodrigo's face when he learned what really happened. All he knew at first (when he celebrated) was that he had won. He didn't know why.

And, Kappler pulled up pretty darn close to immediately.

ToucheToujour
May. 7, 2007, 03:46 PM
My heart goes out to you and your horse, Tug. You did the right thing, pulling him up, and I bet that he knew you were doing what was right for him too.

::hug:: huge ditto to this. Tug had a wonderful career and always seemed to love his job--carrying you to Prelim was the jewel in his crown, I am sure.

wlrottge
May. 7, 2007, 03:51 PM
Am I the only one that sees multiple problems with comparing a barrel horse to an advanced level eventer?!?!?! Not just the horse (size, speed, length of stride, mentality), but the tack (I've never seen a twisted wire bit on XC), the level of fitness (14 seconds vs. 12 minutes of work), the type of situation (open field with fences the size of cars). You're talking apples and oranges.

yeah, i can pull my 16.2 OTTB up two strides after a stadium fence, but it's a VERY different story after a single XC fence. I don't think you can even compare pulling up in stadium to XC. Pulling a tired horse up on Sunday is a much easier thing to do since you are already nursing them around the ring.

I'm NOT saying what she did was right, but all the people criticizing her that don't event or even understand the sport (or the horses) really have nothing meaningful to say.

DMK
May. 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
And, Kappler pulled up pretty darn close to immediately.

Well, as I recall, he said something felt "not right" before he even jumped that last jump. Now I couldn't see it and you couldn't see it, but in the second guessing department, here's betting Chris Kappler is still beating himself over the head with it...

As for Rodrigo, it's already been said, but as long as people keep posting stuff like above, it needs to be said again. He was out of sight of the main field. All he knew was that he won the gold medal in the Olympics. If that doesn't get you celebrating, I don't what does. He did not know HOW he won the gold medal. If you know this is the case, you are irresponsible for representing it was otherwise. If you don't, this is a good time to get educated... ;)

tbluv
May. 7, 2007, 03:58 PM
If you had watched for 10 more seconds, you would have seen the incredible look of shock and concern on Rodrigo's face when he learned what really happened. All he knew at first (when he celebrated) was that he had won. He didn't know why.

That was my point... it's so easy to pass judgement on people based on the material the cameramen give you. I never saw the "concerned" Rodrigo. Video footage doesn't always tell the whole story.

DMK
May. 7, 2007, 04:07 PM
ica, just to add, I have been on a horse when it had a large bone fracture, whatched another of my horses gallop past me and get a large bone fracture and another occasion (in the show ring) on a horse that had a soft tissue injury. The soft tissue injury - a popped curb- was initially severe/painful but thankfully had an excellent recovery. The large bone fractures were lethal. In ALL three cases I have spent years (decades?) going over my actions trying to evaluate my actions against a standard that I could not possibly have achieved at that moment since I didn't have the instant replay option installed in my head.

I don't know if I can explain the weird combination of slow motion, seeming mental paralysis and utter confusion that consumed me in all three cases. Anything "correct" that I did, I did by instinct because thinking was simply not a "useful" option. But in the case of the large bone fracture, there is something about the nature of that feeling (it really sucks, by the way) that made instinct kick in immediately. Instinct was the right reaction. The soft tissue injury was not at all the same feeling and it gave me time to think. Thinking wasn't really an effective way to deal with the issue. It got in the way of instinct.

If anyone hasn't read it, "Blink" is a great book that talks about the rapid decision making process of instinct versus reasoned analysis. Very interesting and it deals with this issue in an interesting way. Maybe a way for a person who has not had the misfortune to be ON a horse during a catastrophic injury might be able to relate to.

Paks
May. 7, 2007, 04:11 PM
It was the end-- Le Samurai was tired. It could have just as easily been a tired horse switching leads and bobbling on uneven terrain trying to find that second wind.

Event riders and jockeys should not be compared-- a seasoned jockey can feel a catastrophic break down easier because 1) they are more commonplace in racing and 2) they are running on a flat/groomed surface not a hilly or uneven surface. I'm sure there have been plenty of rookie jockeys that have kept horses running after breaking down. Unfortunately the only way to learn from experience is to EXPERIENCE it. It's a GOOD thing that Amy made it to the level she did without knowing what a honest to goodness breakdown felt like.



Oh come on are you trying to tell me she never once in her life before rode a horse that was lame? I only had six riding lessons when I was accidently put on a lame horse and even with that little experience I could tell there was something wrong. A break down feels even worse than that. If she couldn't tell something was wrong she has absolutely no feel, which would be hard to believe given her dressage score.

magnolia73
May. 7, 2007, 04:21 PM
but the tack (I've never seen a twisted wire bit on XC),

Event riders have some hard core bits that allow them to get their points made quickly if needed. They aren't out there in rubber snaffle for the most part. But they do bit for the most effective communication - like a barrel racer.

lstevenson
May. 7, 2007, 04:22 PM
I don't event, but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him. If there's no stopping him, then you shouldn't be up there.





Again, since you don't event, this isn't something on which you can offer an informed opinion, can you?

It is absolutely true that a horse "locks on" to a jump, and there is a point past which you are committed and cannot pull up safely (at least, not without ripping your horse's head off, and maybe not even then).



Erin is absolutely right. These horses don't get to this level without loving their jobs and being very enthusiastic about their x-c. I wish people would not make comments about things that they know nothing about.

But the point is that this horse was NOT "locked on" to the last jump, but was in fact begging to stop, because he was in so much pain. He could have easily been stopped within a few strides of the initial injury. Whether or not that would have saved his life we will never know.

shea'smom
May. 7, 2007, 04:35 PM
What is really scarey is how we can not have any kind of discussion about this without getting ugly. Thank goodness religion isn't involved, we'd be sending each other bombs.
We are supposed to be all horse people.
I'd like to see some of the vicious posters try to put them selves in Amy's postion for just one second.
As a person who feels for Amy, has evented over prelim, and thinks she should be given the benefit of the doubt until the FEI makes their ruling, I will say... she was wrong, I'd like to think I wouldn't have done that.

Once my horse kicked me in the head when I was picking his front feet. I whacked him hard once, then realized he must have been kicking at a fly.
That was about 17 years ago and I still remember it because I was unjust.

So how about some anti- Amy posters trying to cut her a break.
As far as her expression, there is a moment when she is holding him at the finish when she puts rests her head on his. She looks overwhelmed with sadness.
I think everyone on this thread needs to preface their remarks with their own eventing experience.
For me - 30 years experience, up thru Intermediate 3 Day.

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 04:35 PM
Am I the only one that sees multiple problems with comparing a barrel horse to an advanced level eventer?!?!?! Not just the horse (size, speed, length of stride, mentality), but the tack (I've never seen a twisted wire bit on XC), the level of fitness (14 seconds vs. 12 minutes of work), the type of situation (open field with fences the size of cars). You're talking apples and oranges.

yeah, i can pull my 16.2 OTTB up two strides after a stadium fence, but it's a VERY different story after a single XC fence. I don't think you can even compare pulling up in stadium to XC. Pulling a tired horse up on Sunday is a much easier thing to do since you are already nursing them around the ring.

I'm NOT saying what she did was right, but all the people criticizing her that don't event or even understand the sport (or the horses) really have nothing meaningful to say.

1st of all i rode my barrel horse in an o ring snaffle, not a wire bit or a sliding gag or anything of that sort, he did have a tie down on and breast collar but that was it, i never had spurs or a whip, he was the greatest. the other that raced in nbra rode in a simple tom thumb, a tie down and a breast collar. thats it, so why can't they be compared when the have no harsher bit or other mechanical devices, they are all the same, matter of fact my one barrel horse actually did show jumping at A shows and some xc as well as trail rides for miles and miles, and yes he was hot on them all but exceeded most of the horses out there and we were in an oring snaffle the whole time. its different games on horses but a horse that locks on a barrel or pole or a horse that locks on a jump is no different if they use the same devices besides a different saddle. i am also training a very hot little guy for dressage, xcountry, and jumping and he is hell on wheels but he will still pull back even after he locks on. there is locking on a jump with a horse but a horse esp. one with dressage training at that level is should come back to you when you ask. but all the same this horse did not lock on she cued and pushed, you can hear it on the video and see it well. i'm not saying she knew, but i'm saying i don't see how she couldn't!!!

wlrottge
May. 7, 2007, 04:40 PM
Holy run on sentence Batman... let me decipher that and I'll get back to you.

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 04:48 PM
Winner of the William Faulkner award!

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 04:50 PM
Holy run on sentence Batman... let me decipher that and I'll get back to you.

how old are you 3? sorry if i ran sentences together i have my 6 year old playing a board game with me i wasn't really concentrating on my grammer.

Auventera Two
May. 7, 2007, 04:55 PM
Again, since you don't event, this isn't something on which you can offer an informed opinion, can you?

Well - informed or not - I'm entitled to say it - unless BB rules changed somewhere along the line.

The truth is Erin - this is something that affects the horse world at large - NOT just the eventing gurus. Everybody and his brother posted on the Barbaro thread, and how many of them are directly involved in the racing world? The public just watched the ugly Barbaro fiasco, and now they're watching this, plus 2 other horse deaths from Badminton. That's a big blow to the industry as a whole.

When you have a head bobbing lame horse break to the trot before a fence, and is kicked on by his rider, and then later has to be euthanized because the injuries are so bad, its going to be talked about because its a really big deal. From what I've seen watching XC horses do not readily break to the trot on course. Generally its the rider struggling to hold them back. So I would think that would have been a big clue that something was wrong.

tbluv
May. 7, 2007, 04:57 PM
Oh come on are you trying to tell me she never once in her life before rode a horse that was lame?

No, I'm saying she had to make a decision on whether the horse was terribly lame or not. It's easy to say when looking from the ground O.M.G, but maybe under saddle it felt like he was wavering or tripped and was trying to recover. If she had continued to run the horse for 20 more seconds then pulled up, but had NOT crossed the finish line, would we even be having this discussion?


I'm not in a position to say what she was or was not thinking, perhaps she did knowingly keep the horse running lame OR perhaps, to her, it DID feel like he was going to recover. It's not for us to judge, the horse died... she'll have to live with that REGARDLESS of what her intentions were. That's a heavy burden to bear.

caffeinated
May. 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
how old are you 3? sorry if i ran sentences together i have my 6 year old playing a board game with me i wasn't really concentrating on my grammer.

Well, that'll teach me to make assumptions on a poster's age and maturity level based on posting style...

:dead:

Paks
May. 7, 2007, 05:21 PM
No, I'm saying she had to make a decision on whether the horse was terribly lame or not. It's easy to say when looking from the ground O.M.G, but maybe under saddle it felt like he was wavering or tripped and was trying to recover. If she had continued to run the horse for 20 more seconds then pulled up, but had NOT crossed the finish line, would we even be having this discussion?


I'm not in a position to say what she was or was not thinking, perhaps she did knowingly keep the horse running lame OR perhaps, to her, it DID feel like he was going to recover. It's not for us to judge, the horse died... she'll have to live with that REGARDLESS of what her intentions were. That's a heavy burden to bear.

Read my other posts the rule is if the horse is lame not terribly lame, just lame. And yes we would be having this discussion if she had run 20 more seconds and then pulled up with out finishing. The problem is not did the horse finish or not. But that the horse was not pulled up and was in fact urged to continue forward. And again if her feel is so bad she couldn't tell the horse was at least lame I doubt she would have had that dressage score.

To those who talk about having to make split second decisions well it's about 7 seconds between the break down and the turn to the final fence. I sure hope her reaction time is better behind the wheel of a car than it was while mounted. Alot can happen in 7 seconds on the road. Usually if your reaction time is greater than 2 seconds you are a real hazard on the highway.

As far as your last 2 sentences. That is getting awfully close to the classic definition of Chutz Pah ( pardon the spelling).

wlrottge
May. 7, 2007, 05:31 PM
how old are you 3? sorry if i ran sentences together i have my 6 year old playing a board game with me i wasn't really concentrating on my grammer.

No, I'm 4. I thought the converse of your statement might be true, however.

There are significant differences between the horses. A large event horse could NOT run barrels effectively. Too tall, too long, strides are too long. The way they move is very different. It is an apple/orange comparison. Event horses get up to speed (advanced is 570mpm/~21.5 mph average speed, just to make time!!) and only slow down enough to be in control over the fences. A barrel horse accelerates hard and knows that at each barrel it's going to slow down and turn. Horses anticipate their job. Stopping a horse when they're focused on their job is not an easy task, especially a long strided event horse. Go check out a fit advanced horse, they make a fit track horse look weak, it truly is awe inspiring.

The only reason I even say anything is b/c there are too many people here that don't event and are raking her over the coals without any experience to build off of. Eventing is being sold as a cruel riders sport, but that is NOT the case. We boarded at a HUGE reining/barrel barn here in UT before moving to an english barn (no space) and watching the things they did to those horses... No eventer would ever consider that "training". All the eventers I know care deeply for their horses. It's a partnership and that's the ONLY way people get to where she is.

You can't make a horse jump one of those fences if they don't want. That horse knew his job and accepted it. Was she wrong in asking him do it? Probably. What would have happened if she pulled up and it was "nothing"? Then she gets to answer to her sponsors why the rider/horse winning Rolex pulled up with one fence left to go.

I was at a *** and a horse chested a jump and launched the rider. The horse was not jumping well and the rider jumped a couple more fences and pulled the horse out. The rider told us that owners were really ticked and wanted to know why he pulled out. This was not even an event of Rolex's caliber and that sort of thing was going on.

summerhorse
May. 7, 2007, 05:31 PM
Perhaps eventing needs to station more vets and workers around the X country course and if they see an obviously lame horse they need to blow a buzzer (or somehow alert THAT rider to stop but don't all riders have to stop if there is an accident? I don't remember) that tells the rider to STOP right then. Workers with small flags (to alert the rider not scare the horse) could also wave the rider down in case they are deaf (or pretend to be). Any rider that does not stop gets a suspension or a ban (depending on the severity of the incident). You know since they can't tell when a horse breaks down...

Edited because I can't type or spell today

BLBGP
May. 7, 2007, 06:02 PM
What would have happened if she pulled up and it was "nothing"? Then she gets to answer to her sponsors why the rider/horse winning Rolex pulled up with one fence left to go.



Better to explain pulling up than having to explain a seriously injured or dead horse.

The attitude expressed in the quoted paragraph makes me very sad. DOn't want to have to explain pulling up to the sponsors - kick on!!

(please note, I am not saying this is what AT thought - just responding to wlrottge).

fuller0819
May. 7, 2007, 06:02 PM
No, I'm 4. I thought the converse of your statement might be true, however.

There are significant differences between the horses. A large event horse could NOT run barrels effectively. Too tall, too long, strides are too long. The way they move is very different. It is an apple/orange comparison. Event horses get up to speed (advanced is 570mpm/~21.5 mph average speed, just to make time!!) and only slow down enough to be in control over the fences. A barrel horse accelerates hard and knows that at each barrel it's going to slow down and turn. Horses anticipate their job. Stopping a horse when they're focused on their job is not an easy task, especially a long strided event horse. Go check out a fit advanced horse, they make a fit track horse look weak, it truly is awe inspiring.

The only reason I even say anything is b/c there are too many people here that don't event and are raking her over the coals without any experience to build off of. Eventing is being sold as a cruel riders sport, but that is NOT the case. We boarded at a HUGE reining/barrel barn here in UT before moving to an english barn (no space) and watching the things they did to those horses... No eventer would ever consider that "training". All the eventers I know care deeply for their horses. It's a partnership and that's the ONLY way people get to where she is.

You can't make a horse jump one of those fences if they don't want. That horse knew his job and accepted it. Was she wrong in asking him do it? Probably. What would have happened if she pulled up and it was "nothing"? Then she gets to answer to her sponsors why the rider/horse winning Rolex pulled up with one fence left to go.

I was at a *** and a horse chested a jump and launched the rider. The horse was not jumping well and the rider jumped a couple more fences and pulled the horse out. The rider told us that owners were really ticked and wanted to know why he pulled out. This was not even an event of Rolex's caliber and that sort of thing was going on.

well to counter the size matter one is 16.3H so not so small and larger then most eventers. the other is small and is 14.3H. the 16.3H one was not mine i just raced him and could not tell you how he was trained but with me he was treated very well. the 14.3 one is my baby, he has had about 25,000.00 spent in him so far at uga for knee sx and stem cell inj. even though the vet there didn't think any of it would work. just because i may have barrel raced to expand my riding it doesn't mean i was cruel in no means in training or racing my horses. yet my 14.3 barrel horse did event before i retired him at age 18yr. old. so his stride is not so much different yet he is smaller, except for CONNER!!! GO PONY!!! I am also starting my own morgan/draft horse that is 13yrs. old that has barrel raced and we have been show jumping at A shows now and schooling dressage for 2day until we get ready for 3day. he is very large but refined with long legs and slender body yet he could turn a barrel on a dime. so really there may not be all the differences, but i do understand where you are coming from with the different statures and speeds. there are always exceptions to the rule. I have done most everything on horseback you can except driving and i just know that a good rider should be able to pull their horse up and feel when they are lame esp. as lame as he was. if my sponsers gave me a problem with pulling him up because he was lame then i wouldn't want them as sponsers anyways and i would rather not ride that horse if the owners had a problem with that because its not right. the problem with not being able to make them jump a fence if they don't want to because they know their job is nonsense. yes, they do know their job and that should finish like any good horse but any horse hurt that badly would pull back. if there are any large animal vets out there please give us your opinion on this because really unless your a vet this part is out of our hands on how bad that horse would have been hurting and if he would hurt enough to pull back easily. i know from the video i have he is tired and very slowly he tried to break gait and didn't, i don't know if thats because of her or him. I do know at the end she did cluck to him and crop him over and after the jump. all is all she should have done what was right for the horse and stopped him. no amount of money is worth killing such an amazing creature.

wlrottge
May. 7, 2007, 06:05 PM
My intent was to say, that she was damned if she did and damned if she didn't.

NO, they are NOT equal, however some people here are petty and pushing/twisting the bounds of what others are saying.

BLBGP
May. 7, 2007, 06:11 PM
And I'm saying, one "damned" is a whole heck of a lesser problem than the other. If you see them as equal, that's very very sad.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 06:39 PM
Well - informed or not - I'm entitled to say it - unless BB rules changed somewhere along the line.

Yes, by golly, you are entitled to keep making yourself look completely ridiculous if that is what you want to do.

I just want to make sure that people who are reading, who might not know any better, don't give your opinions any weight, since you're quite obviously not very informed about the issues here.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 06:40 PM
Perhaps eventing needs to station more vets and workers around the X country course and if they see an obviously lame horse they need to blow a buzzer (or somehow alert THAT rider to stop but don't all riders have to stop if there is an accident? I don't remember) that tells the rider to STOP right then. Workers with small flags (to alert the rider not scare the horse) could also wave the rider down in case they are deaf (or pretend to be). Any rider that does not stop gets a suspension or a ban (depending on the severity of the incident). You know since they can't tell when a horse breaks down...

Edited because I can't type or spell today

They already have the ability to stop a rider on course, if they need to, but I doubt an official could be called, could assess the situation, and could put the order in place to stop a rider within 30 seconds, which is how long it took for this to play out.

buschkn
May. 7, 2007, 06:54 PM
I am a little stunned that the eventers are getting so up in arms about non-eventers having opinions about this. I evented through Prelim way back when, and up to Training last year. I haven't evented since and probably won't again, or likely not much. I also worked for a few BNRs over the years and groomed at 3days. So am I allowed an opinion?

I think the crux of the matter is that a person, any person, pushed a tired and obviously unsound horse when it was trying to stop. If Chris Kappler had urged Roy on and jumped one last jump and across the finish line, I hope to god we would be having the same conversations.

This is not strictly an eventing issue, this is an equestrian sport issue. So you die hards who staunchly defend ATs reaction to her horse's breakdown, all in the name of the sacred sport of eventing, do more harm than good, IMHO. It is the RIGHT thing to do to talk about this and try and learn from it.

To say that AT made a gross error in judgement is an understatement. Many of us agree on that. There are few, if any, people here who think she is satan or are suggesting it. And I have yet to hear anyone call for eventing to be abolished. True HORSE PEOPLE are allowed to have an opinion on the matter, and the importance of horse welfare should have nothing whatsoever to do with what discipline you choose.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 07:00 PM
I think the crux of the matter is that a person, any person, pushed a tired and obviously unsound horse when it was trying to stop. If Chris Kappler had urged Roy on and jumped one last jump and across the finish line, I hope to god we would be having the same conversations.

This is not strictly an eventing issue, this is an equestrian sport issue.

Exactly. And anyone who has seen the video can comment in an educated manner on what happened -- this is not an incident that was eventing-specific. So it would be nice if the comments, especially the ones that start "I don't event, but..." dealt with the simple facts of the AT situation, and did not attempt to draw grand conclusions about eventing itself.

And personally, I don't care if someone has won a gold medal at the Olympics, I still don't think that qualifies them to pronounce what someone else does or doesn't feel, based on a TV soundbite. ;)

Gnep
May. 7, 2007, 07:01 PM
Erin,
I think it is rather silly to say, if you have not evented you can not judge what happened in this case. Any horseperson can judge this, eventer, powderpootsh ( dressage ), jumper, reiner, barrel racer or what ever. This is not a matter of eventing, this is a matter of horsemanship

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 07:08 PM
Um, Gnep, read again... you and I are in agreement. Anyone who has half a clue about horses, in any discipline, can view the video and have an informed opinion about it. It's not exactly subtle.

TSWJB
May. 7, 2007, 07:10 PM
no upper level rider does not feel when a horse is off, slightly off etc. and from what i am reading here, he was very lame. it doesn't matter if he pulled a shoe or stung himself. you don't take the risk in pursuit of your own glory. you pull up and find out what is the matter. and only then carry on if its nothing. i think amy's actions were disgraceful and i hope she gets set down by the ruling body. it will teach other people that you cannot put your own glory ahead of the horse's well being. from what i have read, there is no way she didn't know her horse was injured. and to jump with an injury, could make it go from a few months recovery to life threatening injuries. which in this case the horse had to be put down. i hope she is ashamed of what she has done. and i cannot believe people are defending her. she is an upper level rider. she knew something was wrong. she could have steered the horse around the fence instead of jumping it. i cannot believe a severely injured horse would have fought her to keep going. its not like he was with a pack of horses not wanting to be left behind.
i think this whole thing is so sad and shameful. and i hope the horse rests in peace. amy did not deserve a horse so noble!

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 08:08 PM
Am I the only one that sees multiple problems with comparing a barrel horse to an advanced level eventer?!?!?! Not just the horse (size, speed, length of stride, mentality), but the tack (I've never seen a twisted wire bit on XC), the level of fitness (14 seconds vs. 12 minutes of work), the type of situation (open field with fences the size of cars). You're talking apples and oranges.


No, you're not the only one. I've watched quite a few barrel races, and I agree that the horses are hot, but it is a different kind of hot than a 4* horse. And I bet those 6-7" shanks make stopping QUITE a bit easier.

(and btw, I absolutely got your pitchforks to Badminton sarcasm the first time around - that was a good one).

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 08:12 PM
As for Rodrigo, it's already been said, but as long as people keep posting stuff like above, it needs to be said again. He was out of sight of the main field. All he knew was that he won the gold medal in the Olympics. If that doesn't get you celebrating, I don't what does. He did not know HOW he won the gold medal. If you know this is the case, you are irresponsible for representing it was otherwise. If you don't, this is a good time to get educated... ;)

Thank you for re-emphasizing this. You, too, BLBGP. I hate these kind of judgments and am glad you spoke up.

ica7059, I'm so sorry about what happened. {{{HUGS}}} I know you miss him every day.

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 08:21 PM
Well - informed or not - I'm entitled to say it -

Best post EVER!




"I give people the truth, unfiltered by rational argument. " - Stephen Colbert

flyingchange
May. 7, 2007, 08:34 PM
Yes, by golly, you are entitled to keep making yourself look completely ridiculous if that is what you want to do.

I just want to make sure that people who are reading, who might not know any better, don't give your opinions any weight, since you're quite obviously not very informed about the issues here.

I think most of us are quite capable of deciding how much weight we want to apply to other people's posts.

Enough with your bully pulpit, Erin.

ivy62
May. 7, 2007, 09:43 PM
TSWJB- I was there and saw the entire thing! We were screaming to pull up!!!! I agree with what you say, should any other owner trust her with a horse now...Le Samurai gave his all, his life, for her. At that point in the course would you not say they are tired. Jockeys make more of an effort to stop the horse! She also pushed him to canter the finish line......It makes me sick to see what has happened to this horse!
I hope the USEF makes her an example of what not to do with your horse.....It makes my blood boil. I do not like to trash anyone but when it is this bad they deserve it....sorry for the rant...

cowgirleventer
May. 7, 2007, 10:07 PM
I've been away for awhile but my goodness its fun to be back! Gnep-love ya-can't wait to see you in AZ...as far as the barrel girl vs the other person. Gnep said it best. Horsemanship is horsemanship and frankly, without knowing either of you or seeing either ride, I have to say the barrel girl sounds like a hell of a more well-rounded horse person. I am all for discussion on these topics but people who have only evented have a sheltered view of horsemanship. Here to say, I saw Amy Tryon ride in CO and she knocked my socks off.

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 10:24 PM
people who have only evented have a sheltered view of horsemanship.

This is absolutely not true.

hitchinmygetalong
May. 7, 2007, 10:30 PM
I am all for discussion on these topics but people who have only evented have a sheltered view of horsemanship.

Could you elaborate on that, please? I'd really, really, REALLY like to hear the thought process behind that statement.

Thank you.

Mariequi
May. 7, 2007, 10:36 PM
Excuse me. "Only" evented? That means dressage AND show jumping AND cross-country AND getting a horse fit AND knowing equipment AND learning to know a horse AND, oh, sheesh, where to stop. Most of the eventers I know are more well-rounded than other disciplines. Please explain.

horsekpr
May. 7, 2007, 10:40 PM
People,people,people,get a grip. I think some of you guys are being very harsh.Yes,what happened was terrible.I believe that Amy made a huge mistake in judgement,with disaterous consequences. By all accounts,from those that know her ,she is a very caring ,and dedicated horseperson.
Does anyone go through this life without making a dreadful mistake,that they would undo if they could? Have a little compassion. I know that nothing anyone says ,or does is going to compare to the punishment Amy is undoubtabley putting herself though. How many times must she replay that ride in her head? I'll bet she sees it in her sleep. I can only imagine how distraught she must feel. Although,at the time she may have thought she was doing the right thing,by now she is trying to come to grips with what happened ,and why she didn't make a different choice.She also has to be wondering if her horse might have survived if she had.
I ,for one,am very glad that I am not her ,right now. The horse is no longer suffering.He displayed as much heart as any horse who has ever lived.For that he should be honored. I'll bet Amy carries this burden with her for the rest of her life.For that she should be shown compassion.

Erin
May. 7, 2007, 10:43 PM
Enough with your bully pulpit, Erin.

I'm just as entitled to voice my opinion as anyone else is... sorry, dear, you'll just have to either put me on ignore or put up with it! :)

hitchinmygetalong
May. 7, 2007, 10:51 PM
Personally, I'm all for the governing body of this particular discipline to "pass judgement" as I was not there, I have not seen "the video", I do not want to see the video, and though I have had some exposure to eventing, I am certainly not at all qualified to render an opinion. Period.

And I think there are a lot of folks posting on this thread that are in the same position I am, yet for some reason some of them feel compelled to climb up on their soapboxes and use this incident as a springboard for some personal agenda they might have to toss eggs at a sport that they neither participate in nor understand.

Paks
May. 7, 2007, 10:51 PM
People,people,people,get a grip. I think some of you guys are being very harsh.Yes,what happened was terrible.I believe that Amy made a huge mistake in judgement,with disaterous consequences. By all accounts,from those that know her ,she is a very caring ,and dedicated horseperson.
Does anyone go through this life without making a dreadful mistake,that they would undo if they could? Have a little compassion. I know that nothing anyone says ,or does is going to compare to the punishment Amy is undoubtabley putting herself though. How many times must she replay that ride in her head? I'll bet she sees it in her sleep. I can only imagine how distraught she must feel. Although,at the time she may have thought she was doing the right thing,by now she is trying to come to grips with what happened ,and why she didn't make a different choice.She also has to be wondering if her horse might have survived if she had.
I ,for one,am very glad that I am not her ,right now. The horse is no longer suffering.He displayed as much heart as any horse who has ever lived.For that he should be honored. I'll bet Amy carries this burden with her for the rest of her life.For that she should be shown compassion.

The definition of Chutzpah someone who kills their parents and then expects mercy and forgiveness from the courts because they are an orphan.

Copper
May. 7, 2007, 11:00 PM
I am an eventer.
I don't often post, but I do read a lot.
I have been following these posts since last weekend, and have seen all of the coverage.
No I am not 4star, nor will I ever be.
I have not posted because I really don't have an opinion until all of the evidence is in, and quite frankly, the evidence that most people seem to be waiting for is either a denial or a confirmation by Amy Tryon that she knew something was wrong or she didn't. I find it highly unlikely that we will see that kind of evidence.
While everyone is free to have an opinion, I am disgusted by a couple of you regular know-it-alls who have come like vultures to pick at the bones a week after the fact.
All you seem to want to do is crash this train.
I guess it would be okay of your comments were based on some real horse knowledge, but judging by this and many previous posts, I have my doubts about that. You aren't adding any value to this discussion at all.
So post away and give your opinions freely, as you are entitled.
I guess I'm entitled to laugh my ass off at your motives...........

Anne FS
May. 7, 2007, 11:11 PM
Enough with your bully pulpit, Erin.

I'm with Erin on this one. I'm sure you and lots of others are indeed perfectly capable of who's spouting nonsense on here, but there are obviously a lot of beginners to either horses or to a particular sport.

Erin was just pointing out that in effect Auventera Two was posting that although she was totally uninformed on a subject, she was entitled to post as fact things that simply are not true.

And yes, she is entitled to do so, but really, how can you have a discussion when people admit flat out that they don't know what they're talking about and then state their beliefs, which they admit are based on being uninformed!??

It's really one of the funniest things I've ever read on a msg. board, except I don't think ATwo was trying to be funny.

Now if wlrottge had posted that, I would've gotten the joke!

Gnep
May. 7, 2007, 11:19 PM
Hihihihihi Erin well said, but you are still a bully, pruuuuuuuuust.

And please forgive a old wetback first class, no habla englaise to bueno, for having miss understood you.

I bow and burp at the same time, its miller time in CO.

Hey Cowgirl, finally thawed out ? Still got all your teeth, hihihi. come down and enjoy the toygarden

beeblebrox
May. 7, 2007, 11:51 PM
I am curious why none of her peers (those competing with her at Rolex), Jimmy Wofford, Mark Philip's and others have not said she was in the right or did the best she possibly could.

I have seen comments that many believe as I do that she is a amazing rider and horse woman but (please post them if you see them) comments supporting her riding to the end of the course and her actions. WHY NOT?


ARE they all waiting to see what FEI and USEA do? If so I think it is sad

This is a legitimate question, I would hope if I ever (which I will not due to lack of talent, money, horse etc) rode at that level those people (coaches, fellow competitors, etc) would be quoted every where backing me up if I was in the right???

I think it is sad if they all wait until the orgs that be make a stand!

Jaegermonster
May. 7, 2007, 11:56 PM
Erin,
I think it is rather silly to say, if you have not evented you can not judge what happened in this case. Any horseperson can judge this, eventer, powderpootsh ( dressage ), jumper, reiner, barrel racer or what ever. This is not a matter of eventing, this is a matter of horsemanship
Gnep Erin agrees with you she is not arguing with you.

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 12:00 AM
I am curious why none of her peers...

I think they're not judging her. They're letting the FEI investigation take place without interference and second-guessing, which is more than we're doing.

Also, Le Samurai's owners as well as USEA have publicly made very positive statements about Amy Tryon.

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 12:05 AM
I would hope if I ever (which I will not due to lack of talent, money, horse etc) rode at that level those people (coaches, fellow competitors, etc) would be quoted every where backing me up if I was in the right???



As someone posted earlier, what about the middle ground? The belief that she is a terrific, caring, talented person who, being all too human, made a dreadful mistake. Her peers would understand more than anyone what she must be going through and could just possibly be showing compassion.

summerhorse
May. 8, 2007, 12:11 AM
Erin,
I think it is rather silly to say, if you have not evented you can not judge what happened in this case. Any horseperson can judge this, eventer, powderpootsh ( dressage ), jumper, reiner, barrel racer or what ever. This is not a matter of eventing, this is a matter of horsemanship

Exactly. It doesn't matter WHAT the horse was doing or who was riding it, he should have been pulled up immediately. The fact that people from all walks of life including people who have no clue about horses could see that is very telling. You don't have to be an event rider to tell when a horse has broken down.

ETA: Although it is hard to count because I can't slow down the video and some of the strides aren't real strides (trotting, 4 beating) the horse takes at least 30 full strides from the time he broke down to the jump and another 17 minimum after until she pulls him up. She didn't beat him with the crop or anything but she does wave it at him (keeping her hand on his neck) and hits him on the shoulder a few times. And the horse was not going fast.

beeblebrox
May. 8, 2007, 12:32 AM
"anne FS
As someone posted earlier, what about the middle ground? The belief that she is a terrific, caring, talented person who, being all too human, made a dreadful mistake. Her peers would understand more than anyone what she must be going through and could just possibly be showing compassion."

"Anne FS
I think they're not judging her. They're letting the FEI investigation take place without interference and second-guessing, which is more than we're doing.

Also, Le Samurai's owners as well as USEA have publicly made very positive statements about Amy Tryon."

You misunderstood my question and I probably did not make it clear enough. I am asking why there is NOT more positive statements from them, I get and so does everyone else why they are not saying bad things in public but HOW about hi, I was riding at ROLEX also and you know what AMY did the best job she could. Or as a qualified coach for the team AMY was spot on and the whole USA teal eventing supports her ride! I was saying we are seeing VANILLA statements of great rider and horsewoman not that people support her riding at the end of XC and I think they should if that is what they believe. It is just my thought and opinion which I am allowed of course ;-)

I am not talking about having the owner giving support I am speaking of her peers.

Do not for a minute thing the upper level riders are not discussing this, sure not in a public forum but certainly there are people on both sides of the fence that ride and teach at the upper levels.
I just feel many who ride along side her at that level or coach folks that do are waiting and seeing before the comment.

Gnep
May. 8, 2007, 01:00 AM
No shit Jaegermonster !

lstevenson
May. 8, 2007, 01:03 AM
Those of you jumping on Erin about for saying that only those who have experience in this sport should be making comments should read much more carefully! THIS is the comment she was talking about, as was I:



I don't event, but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him. If there's no stopping him, then you shouldn't be up there.


NOT anything directly to do with the AT situation. Any knowledgable horseperson of any discipline who knows what really happened can have an opinion on this situation.

But to say "but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him." when you have never evented and actually felt a horse "lock on" to a jump is simply ignorance.


Sorry Erin, I know you are fully capable of standing up for yourself! I just found it funny that so many people are reading/interpreting this incorrectly.

Gnep
May. 8, 2007, 01:04 AM
Beeblebrox,
Why does any of her peers and so on and so, does not say anything.
Political corectness or just simply gutlesnes, the state of our sport, so to speak

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 01:13 AM
No, your original post was clear, I was just trying to be tactful in my answer (I obviously need more practice!). I guess what I was trying to say is that:
a) I don't know what her peers are feeling/thinking;
b) but I understand if when there's an investigation you just don't speak publicly about it, but talk to the investigators and not the whole world;
c) if the video shows an obviously lame horse, and they know and trust AT, then they know that a tragic mistake was made and therefore, being her friends and supporters, they are not commenting publicly on it because all those involved with the horse are suffering enough.

So I guess c) is what may be the answer to your question as to what her peers think of it.

Note that that is only ONE POSSIBILITY.

beeblebrox
May. 8, 2007, 01:23 AM
"Anne FS

Note that that is only ONE POSSIBILITY."

Thanks for your reply

Of course I understand the "team USA" or coach of USA saying anything but if I was down and feeling low and I had fellow riders or co workers I would hope they would leap to my defense not as a good horsewoman but for the ride. It would be hard to swallow having "peers" waiting for the official statement from FEI to come up to the plate either way!

Petalstorm
May. 8, 2007, 01:57 AM
""The definition of Chutzpah someone who kills their parents and then expects mercy and forgiveness from the courts because they are an orphan."

Geez, Chaotic Mind, youve got a lot of chutzpah to define the word chutpah that way.

Where the hell did you get that definition from? What are you, Mashuginah?

The word 'dillusional' comes to mind in reference to what you defined.

Here is Merriam -Webster's

Main Entry: chutz·pah
Variant(s): also chutz·pa or hutz·pah or hutz·pa /'hut-sp&, '[k]ut-, -(")spä/
Function: noun
Etymology: Yiddish khutspe, from Late Hebrew huspAh
: supreme self-confidence : NERVE, GALL

Copper
May. 8, 2007, 08:33 AM
Since it looks like you know how to use a dictionary, why don't you try looking up delusional? I think it will be much easier to find than dillusional...........
Just sayin;)

Paks
May. 8, 2007, 08:36 AM
""The definition of Chutzpah someone who kills their parents and then expects mercy and forgiveness from the courts because they are an orphan."

Geez, Chaotic Mind, youve got a lot of chutzpah to define the word chutpah that way.

Where the hell did you get that definition from? What are you, Mashuginah?

The word 'dillusional' comes to mind in reference to what you defined.

Here is Merriam -Webster's

Main Entry: chutz·pah
Variant(s): also chutz·pa or hutz·pah or hutz·pa /'hut-sp&, '[k]ut-, -(")spä/
Function: noun
Etymology: Yiddish khutspe, from Late Hebrew huspAh
: supreme self-confidence : NERVE, GALL

I got that definition from a jewish family I worked for as a teenager. A jewish fellow officer candidate and even an episode of Law and Order. In short it is a common usage definition used for the penultimate example of the word. Check out the second paragraph of this website http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/SupremeChutzpah.html
also the 3rd paragraph in the wikipedia listing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah

gully's pilot
May. 8, 2007, 09:06 AM
Why aren't Amy's peers saying they support her decision to keep going? Maybe because they don't. I don't have any idea, of course, but honestly, people--if you go with the idea of them thinking that she's a good horseperson who made a tragic mistake, how can you expect them to say anything but that it was a tragic mistake? Also, I would expect any statements of support or sympathy to be made directly to Amy, not announced to the media at large.

canterlope
May. 8, 2007, 09:11 AM
Beeblebrox,
Why does any of her peers and so on and so, does not say anything.
Political corectness or just simply gutlesnes, the state of our sport, so to speakMaybe because her peers have decided to contact her in private and don't feel the need to go public where they would undoubtedly be judged by the masses. Or maybe because her peers have no idea as to whether or not the FEI will ask them to comment on her behalf during their investigation and they have wisely decided to hold their tongues until they know for sure. Or how about the fact that the USEF and USEA may also take action against Amy and many of her peers either are members of the USEF/USEA committees who will conduct these investigations or may be called by these committees to speak on her behalf.

Am I the only one who thinks it's time to 1) let this thing go until the FEI/USEF/USEA finishes with their official business, and 2) let our better nature towards one another re-emerge?

Auventera Two
May. 8, 2007, 09:44 AM
Those of you jumping on Erin about for saying that only those who have experience in this sport should be making comments should read much more carefully! THIS is the comment she was talking about, as was I:


NOT anything directly to do with the AT situation. Any knowledgable horseperson of any discipline who knows what really happened can have an opinion on this situation.

But to say "but I don't believe the nonsense that when a horse "locks on" a jump, there is no stopping him." when you have never evented and actually felt a horse "lock on" to a jump is simply ignorance.

Sorry Erin, I know you are fully capable of standing up for yourself! I just found it funny that so many people are reading/interpreting this incorrectly.


I find it really hard to believe that a horse can "lock onto" a jump to the point that he cannot be stopped, slowed, or turned. If that were the case, then the beast would never listen to a half halt would never be able to make the turns to the next line, and would never be able to be pulled up after going off course, or getting injured. If the horse just goes into this blind rage, completely out of control, then how the hell would the rider ever rate the horse on the approach? Does the rider just flap along like a tick on a dog's back praying the horse finds his own distance, takes off at the right spot, and lands on the right lead???? Sorry - I don't believe it.

Just like the Salinero fiasco - if you cannot control the animal - then you have no business riding it. It's really that simple. Each is free to agree or disagree, but that's my opinion. And I've watched eventing for many years and I have never seen such a nightmare as what played out at Rolex this year. It was truly a horrific day for the horse world at large.

And no, I don't believe this horse was "locked onto" anything, as he was clearly whipped and kicked back to a gallop to get to the last fence and through the timer.

Lisa Cook
May. 8, 2007, 10:05 AM
And no, I don't believe this horse was "locked onto" anything, as he was clearly whipped and kicked back to a gallop to get to the last fence and through the timer.

I never saw Amy hit the horse after he was hurt. She opened her reins a couple of times, but saying that she "whipped" the horse is a gross mis-statement.

eventamy
May. 8, 2007, 10:23 AM
I agree with Canterlope. It's time to let this go and let the authorities investigate and deal with this. That's why they're there and why we haven't heard much about the incident.

TBCollector
May. 8, 2007, 10:28 AM
A few of Amy's peers had plenty to say about the incident while it was happening. We were watching it on course with several (one who had ridden in the morning and three others who had ridden in previous Rolex events). They were, to a person, HORRIFED as it all unfolded. They were all saying, Pull up, Amy, what the F&ck are you doing? OMG, she's not gonna make him jump...and other such comments. I have heard nor read any public statements from any of these individuals and when I asked one of them (about an hour after it happened) what she truly thought of it, her response was: "I don't want to judge her."

Erin
May. 8, 2007, 10:40 AM
I find it really hard to believe that a horse can "lock onto" a jump to the point that he cannot be stopped, slowed, or turned. If that were the case, then the beast would never listen to a half halt would never be able to make the turns to the next line, and would never be able to be pulled up after going off course, or getting injured. If the horse just goes into this blind rage, completely out of control, then how the hell would the rider ever rate the horse on the approach? Does the rider just flap along like a tick on a dog's back praying the horse finds his own distance, takes off at the right spot, and lands on the right lead???? Sorry - I don't believe it.

Well, it's obvious from your description above that you've never FELT the locking-on phenomenon. Why not stop digging that hole you're in even deeper, and just drop it, rather than insisting that you "don't believe" in something that it's quite apparent you don't understand?


And no, I don't believe this horse was "locked onto" anything, as he was clearly whipped and kicked back to a gallop to get to the last fence and through the timer.

He was not "whipped" back into a gallop. And no one else believes he was locked onto the jump either.

Spoilsport
May. 8, 2007, 10:49 AM
TBCollector - What you describe is classic hearsay, which is utterly worthless as evidence of anything. But I bet someone is going to take it out of context and pass it on as "fact."

This is turning into an urban myth, where things conjured up in someone's imagination are passed on as "fact." Example: that Amy whipped the horse. What crap!!

I was just waiting for someone to bring up Salinero :rolleyes: It seems some people relish it when something bad happens to anyone at the top of the sport. What a sad commentary on human nature :( :( :(

I would love for this thread to die, but it just won't :confused:

Janet
May. 8, 2007, 10:55 AM
I find it really hard to believe that a horse can "lock onto" a jump to the point that he cannot be stopped, slowed, or turned. If that were the case, then the beast would never listen to a half halt would never be able to make the turns to the next line, and would never be able to be pulled up after going off course, or getting injured. If the horse just goes into this blind rage, completely out of control, then how the hell would the rider ever rate the horse on the approach? It is not a "blind rage". It is an inense focus, otherwise know as "in the zone". And it is an intense focus on THAT jump. Nothing to do with pulling up or turning AFTER the fence.

And it happens with horses taht KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. A horse that has "locked on" to a fence Is NOT running away. He may not respond as promptly as usual to a half halt or to being "rated", but that is becuase he has figured it out for himself and is doin his OWN rebalancing and "rating".

Remember that being able to think for himself and make his own detailed deisions, under the general direction of the rider, is one of the things that distinguishes a true upper level event horse from a merely competent one. Just becuase of the nature of cross country, a horse that always waits for direction from the rider (hand riding) isn't going to get to the top levels.

But, as everyone else has said, it seems that none of this is applicable to the AT and LS incident.

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 11:19 AM
blind rage,
completely out of control,
clearly whipped

All this after you've admitted you're uninformed?

Yes, you are entitled to your [admittedly uninformed] opinion, but do NOT post as fact such utter nonsense as "clearly whipped."

Spoilsport is right. You dream up stuff in your imagination and then post it as fact without caring who would repeat your falsehoods. Opinions are one thing, and that's fine. But stop making stuff up. Stick to the facts. And you say you don't know anything about eventing but you can't believe this or that. Then when people who actually event explain it to you, you choose to believe your own imagination over what you've been told by people who actually know!

Oh, snap! I just got it while I was typing that:

Of course Av. Two doesn't accept what experienced people tell her: she knows she's making up stuff all the time, or to be more fair, she's going by what her gut tells her and ignoring all the facts, so she that's what she does. She figures that's what everybody else is doing: working from no facts, so why should she believe them?

By george, I think I've got it:

TRUTHINESS

"Truthiness is what you want the facts to be, as opposed to what the facts are. What feels like the right answer as opposed to what reality will support." - Stephen Colbert

"Truthiness refers to the quality by which a person knows something in their gut, instinctively, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."

RugBug
May. 8, 2007, 11:31 AM
I find it really hard to believe that a horse can "lock onto" a jump to the point that he cannot be stopped, slowed, or turned. If that were the case, then the beast would never listen to a half halt would never be able to make the turns to the next line, and would never be able to be pulled up after going off course, or getting injured. <snip>
Sorry - I don't believe it.


Um, you may not believe it, but you'd be flat out wrong. And uninformed, but you know that already.

I ride hunters/eq and I can tell you my horse "locks" on to jumps...and depending on the distance out, the canter we've got and the plan for after the jump, he could become difficult to pull off.

I just went XC schooling for the first time this weekend on a steady eddy schoolmaster type of guy. He locked on to the jumps and there was a point where it would be dangerous to pull him out (and would be just as bad for an injury) and we were merely handgalloping: Not going that fast AT ALL. Put a horse up to **** star speed and by golly you better believe it can be difficult and dangerous to pull a horse off a jump that is locked on.

But again...very few people actually believe LS was locked on.

Auventera Two
May. 8, 2007, 11:34 AM
And no one else believes he was locked onto the jump either.

You're right - he wasn't. Will be interesting to see how the investigation goes.

beeblebrox
May. 8, 2007, 11:45 AM
"RugBug
I ride hunters/eq and I can tell you my horse "locks" on to jumps...and depending on the distance out, the canter we've got and the plan for after the jump, he could become difficult to pull off.

I just went XC schooling for the first time this weekend on a steady eddy schoolmaster type of guy. He locked on to the jumps and there was a point where it would be dangerous to pull him out (and would be just as bad for an injury) and we were merely handgalloping"

EXCEPT Amy's horse was not locked on and being clucked to and brushed with the stick. He was not being eased to a halt slowly not LOCKED and loaded to the last jump.

magnolia73
May. 8, 2007, 11:46 AM
If you watched the video- and if you think she whipped the horse, you did not, you saw a horse and rider galloping to a fence that looked pretty typical (except the lameness part- but his lameness did not look like Barbaro lameness…...) The horse was not pulling her along, nor was it trying to stop. In terms of pace and commitment, it looked fine. It did not look like some trainwreck of rider whipping and carrying on.

DMK
May. 8, 2007, 11:49 AM
By george, I think I've got it:

TRUTHINESS

"Truthiness is what you want the facts to be, as opposed to what the facts are. What feels like the right answer as opposed to what reality will support." - Stephen Colbert

"Truthiness refers to the quality by which a person knows something in their gut, instinctively, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."
\
Or, Anne ... You may be the smartest person on the BB. That might be the second best application of that word since it was invented! Lord knows AvTwo falls in line with the philosophy, hook line and sinker. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 11:53 AM
"EXCEPT Amy's horse was not locked on and being clucked to and brushed with the stick. He was not being eased to a halt slowly not LOCKED and loaded to the last jump.

Two separate discussions here, beeblebrox: everyone admits Le Samurai was not locked on to the final jump, as it was around the corner and out of sight when he was trying to slow down. That's not debated.

The locked-on discussion is a separate thing about whether or not horses do lock on to jumps and can be difficult/dangerous to stop (depending). Av. Two is saying that she doesn't believe it, and others are saying that they do.

The one thing both sides DO agree on is that Amy's horse wasn't locked on to the final jump.

PiedPiper
May. 8, 2007, 11:53 AM
I find it really hard to believe that a horse can "lock onto" a jump to the point that he cannot be stopped, slowed, or turned. If that were the case, then the beast would never listen to a half halt would never be able to make the turns to the next line, and would never be able to be pulled up after going off course, or getting injured. If the horse just goes into this blind rage, completely out of control, then how the hell would the rider ever rate the horse on the approach? Does the rider just flap along like a tick on a dog's back praying the horse finds his own distance, takes off at the right spot, and lands on the right lead???? Sorry - I don't believe it.

Just like the Salinero fiasco - if you cannot control the animal - then you have no business riding it. It's really that simple. Each is free to agree or disagree, but that's my opinion. And I've watched eventing for many years and I have never seen such a nightmare as what played out at Rolex this year. It was truly a horrific day for the horse world at large.

And no, I don't believe this horse was "locked onto" anything, as he was clearly whipped and kicked back to a gallop to get to the last fence and through the timer.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are too cute AT! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know what, I don't believe the world is actually round. I have never "seen" it. Shoot, I don't believe Australia exists either. I have never been there, don't know any one from it, I think it it is a big conspiracy. How could there actually be animals that crazy looking anyway? Nonsense I tell you, utter nonsense! :lol: :lol: :lol:

RugBug
May. 8, 2007, 11:56 AM
EXCEPT Amy's horse was not locked on and being clucked to and brushed with the stick. He was not being eased to a halt slowly not LOCKED and loaded to the last jump.

Beeblebrox...read the last line of my post, please.

I didn't state "I don't believe he was locked on to the jump"...but you should be able to get the implication from my last sentence. I was merely commenting on AvTwo's seriously uninformed opinion that a horse doesn't lock on to a jump and that pulling up can be dangerous.

Ja Da Dee
May. 8, 2007, 11:59 AM
A2, did you watch the entire download available from NBC? I watched the morning live, and am still working my way through the afternoon session. You will notice several horses take trot steps at certain places on course, it's actually very common if they loose impulsion, or balance. You will also notice one horse wipe out, the rider remount, trot a few steps and continue on. You don't hear people yelling about "how could she go on" because the horse was fine. Maybe would be a different story if he had hurt himself later on course.


TRUTHINESS

"Truthiness is what you want the facts to be, as opposed to what the facts are. What feels like the right answer as opposed to what reality will support." - Stephen Colbert

"Truthiness refers to the quality by which a person knows something in their gut, instinctively, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."

I love this!

summerhorse
May. 8, 2007, 12:06 PM
A2, did you watch the entire download available from NBC? I watched the morning live, and am still working my way through the afternoon session. You will notice several horses take trot steps at certain places on course, it's actually very common if they loose impulsion, or balance. You will also notice one horse wipe out, the rider remount, trot a few steps and continue on. You don't hear people yelling about "how could she go on" because the horse was fine. Maybe would be a different story if he had hurt himself later on course.



I love this!


Again any rider who can't tell the difference between a regular trot and a break down has NO business on the course.

Ja Da Dee
May. 8, 2007, 12:09 PM
Again any rider who can't tell the difference between a regular trot and a break down has NO business on the course.

to clarify, I was respond to A2's post (#809 or there abouts) that said horses on XC don't ever break to a trot.

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 12:20 PM
Thanks, DMK. Coming from you that's high praise indeed.

btw, I miss Molly Ivins, too!

fuller0819
May. 8, 2007, 01:16 PM
If you watched the video- and if you think she whipped the horse, you did not, you saw a horse and rider galloping to a fence that looked pretty typical (except the lameness part- but his lameness did not look like Barbaro lameness…...) The horse was not pulling her along, nor was it trying to stop. In terms of pace and commitment, it looked fine. It did not look like some trainwreck of rider whipping and carrying on.

if you watch the video again, after the last jump she did pop him with the crop, not hard but she did. the only reason is because he was very slow and off and she was trying to get thru the timer. Believe me being there and seeing it and also having the best clear view and sound she did cluck and crop him.

fuller0819
May. 8, 2007, 01:20 PM
No, you're not the only one. I've watched quite a few barrel races, and I agree that the horses are hot, but it is a different kind of hot than a 4* horse. And I bet those 6-7" shanks make stopping QUITE a bit easier.

(and btw, I absolutely got your pitchforks to Badminton sarcasm the first time around - that was a good one).


HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT MY BARREL HORSES WERE RODE IN O RING SNAFFLES AND TOM THUMBS WITH A 1/2 SHANK. YOU GUYS ONLY HEAR WHAT YOU WANT. ALSO THIS HORSE EVENTED WITH ME AFTER RUNNING BARRELS. I HAVE RODE OTHER EVENT HORSES AND HUNTERS AND BROKE DOWN DEAD TRAIL HORSES. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT BUT PULLING BACK ON A HOT HORSE THAT LOCKS ON ITS NEXT JUMP OR BARREL IS HARD BUT IF YOUR HORSE IS WELL TRAINED WITH A WELL TRAINED RIDER THEY CAN BE PULLED OUT.

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 01:26 PM
I think that's great about your horses. I'd love to see more of that in barrel racing, but generally speaking, the Western horses I see, oh, probably 99.9% have long-shanked bits and not snaffles. If you're telling me that your way of bitting is more usual than the shanks, I'm willing to believe you because you would know.

Is that what you're saying? Not just your horses, but most barrel horses run in snaffles? Believe me, I'm willing to be educated about this.

I also know that I would probably use a different bit xc than for other riding, so don't think I'm saying 4* horses are running xc in rubber snaffles.

HMDEngineer
May. 8, 2007, 02:38 PM
I am not a regular poster on this forum, although I visit it on occasion. I have been quite amazed (and dismayed) at some of the comments I have seen posted on this thread. As an upper level event rider for nearly a decade (now retired), I have competed widely around the country, including Rolex. And in all those years, I have never observed anything as heartbreaking and indefensible as Amy Tryon's continuing to GALLOP and JUMP
a horse in such obvious distress.
You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse. You don't make it to that level without being able to feel the most subtle of gait irregularities. And my goodness, LS was virtually 3-legged lame at the canter! And generally, 3 legged lame at the canter is hardly ever just a shoe or a grab. (In fact, in all my 20+ years in competition with dozens of thrown shoes, I have never even known a shoe was gone until I dismounted at the finish. Any lameness as a result always showed up later in the day, probably after the adrenalin wore off. No doubt someone will write in to say that a thrown or wrenched shoe once caused the exact same symptoms in their horse as LS's, but I just have never seen it. I have, however, seen horses break legs and rupture tendons who suddenly went lame just like LS did.) In any case, I cannot imagine that Amy was unaware that the horse underneath her could have suffered a catastrophic injury of some sort, as opposed to just a grab or a shoe or something minor. It seems to me that she was playing the odds, very long ones, that he just might be OK. And surely, can anyone seriously maintain that to continue galloping and jumping on that leg would have had no affect on the severity of the injury? And, to those of you who are thinking that way, are you saying it was OK to gallop on because it was a fatal injury anyway????
As for Amy's behaviour at the finish line, I have a different take on why she acted as she did. There are always officials at the finish line, and she stood to be eliminated and sanctioned for riding in a lame horse, and so she could hardly advertise that that is exactly what she just did. And, of course, it is well ingrained into every rider not to draw undue attention to any possible lameness issue. Otherwise the vets may give your horse extra scrutiny at the jog on Sunday. (Perhaps she was still in "diehard eventer" mode hoping she could somehow ice and laser LS through the problem and actually present him for the jog. Who knows?) The point is that she committed herself to a plan when she did not pull him up, and so I suspect she played it all the way out including at the finish line.
Another point: LS did not look fit enough for this competition. I would have considered pulling that horse up even before he broke down. And once I felt him stumble and take the one or two bad steps, I would have been off. I am sure that horse would have been no problem to stop. He was trying to stop for goodness sake.
I do not know Amy personally, and, no doubt, she has many excellent qualities. But the bottom line is that she did NOT make a bad MISTAKE. She made a bad DECISION. And it probably cost LS his life. And I think that unless significant consequences are forthcoming, we are sending out the wrong message that it's OK to ride irresponsibly as long as you don't mean to hurt the horse, or that it's OK because you are a nice person who loves horses and works hard, etc., etc....
When you compete at this level and on horses with this much heart, you have the moral responsibility to go the extra mile to ALWAYS insure the safety and wellbeing of the horse. What I observed was sickening. And so unnecessary.
If Amy does not deserve our condemnation, then who does? What would a rider have to do to merit a suspension? I am having trouble imagining anything much worse. I ask you, what if the horse she was riding was your horse? Would it not tear your heart out to watch that video then? Would you still defend her? I can assure you she knew she had a very lame horse under her, she was well able to pull him up, and she did not.
Personally, I think that if she is allowed to compete in Hong Kong at the
test event and at the Luhmuhlen ****, then the FEI and the USEF have failed in their responsibility to protect the welfare of our competition horses.
To paraphrase an old saying, the only way that evil can triumph is if good people do nothing. While I do not suppose Amy is "evil", what she did was horrific. And I think we, as horseman, owe more to our horses than we do to Amy. Amy needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for her decisions (and as one poster pointed out, she was making multiple bad decisions - one for each additional lame stride he took after his initial breakdown.)
Finally, I am sure I will be beaten up over this post. So be it. However, since some of you expressed an interest in an upper level rider's opinion, here it is. However, even my little novice student would have hopped off that horse. I do not think you need to have ridden at Rolex to assess what happened on that course. In fact, the lower level riders can help provide some much needed perspective to the "win at any cost" mentality of some of our elite riders.

Paks
May. 8, 2007, 02:45 PM
HMDEngineer. Thank you, I agree with everything you said.

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 8, 2007, 03:05 PM
Thank you for you thoughts as someone who has been at the Rolex level. This discussion really needed it.

AT will be dealt with by the FEI and more importantly the court of public opinion. How many quality rides is she going to see in the future, how many students, clinics, etc? I dare say depsite whatever the FEI says, her days on the top are numbered.

Where does that leave the sport and those who love it? The FEI ruling will take months and by then the outrage will have passed (not that this is right) and the other disiplines will only remember that poor horse being galloped to his death, and not any positive changes that come from it. How do we take what happend at Rolex, FH, Badmington, etc. are learn from it.

AT is a mute point, she is done (banned or not banned). How to we mitigate the damage done...

RugBug
May. 8, 2007, 03:05 PM
I can assure you she knew she had a very lame horse under her, she was well able to pull him up, and she did not.


You cannot assure us of anything regarding what Amy knew or felt or her motivations. You are not her and I'm guessing can't mind read, so save your assurance and let the rest of us make our own judgements, just as you have done.

Quinn
May. 8, 2007, 03:15 PM
HMDEngineer, I took the easy option and sent you a pm to say thank you for your honest post. I really didn't want to agree with you in print but as I've already said, that was the easy option.

I really want to say "in print" that I respect what you've said and I agree wholeheartedly. There are many here who will say "we weren't there" and "we don't know what AT was experiencing" at any given moment. Having said that and after watching that horrific video, ANY breathing human could see that LS was in full breakdown mode.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

nycjumper
May. 8, 2007, 03:16 PM
Um.. just because a brand-new poster says they're an upper-level eventer & s/he has ridden at Rolex doesn't make it true. And someone who isn't willing to put their name to their post is someone we might want to take with a grain of salt. And I find sweeping statements like "You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse" to be a bit credibility-destroying.

The only person who is 100% sure of what she was thinking is the person who was riding. So unless you're Amy - well, you really have no idea. None of us do...

Seven
May. 8, 2007, 03:25 PM
I had the same first reaction as nycjumper. While it's not a requirement of this forum, it would be nice to "know" who the new poster is - otherwise it's just one voice among many, no more credible then any other.

Still, I'm struggling to view the events in any way other than what's been suggested by HMDEngineer....and even without knowing what AT was thinking or feeling, I can assess what it looked like to me. And it doesn't look like anything good. :(

Quinn
May. 8, 2007, 03:27 PM
Too true nycjumper. ONLY Amy does know. However, it is pretty unbelievable to me and many others that it wasn't obvious that LS had profoundly broken down. There were many yelling for LS to be pulled up and yet arms continued to flap and "encourage" that horse to go forward. Just for the record, I don't know who the "new" poster is. However, I respect his/her post and am a little ashamed of myself for taking the backseat approach and sending a pm rather than standing up and agreeing.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Spoilsport
May. 8, 2007, 03:31 PM
Um.. just because a brand-new poster says they're an upper-level eventer & s/he has ridden at Rolex doesn't make it true.

Whew, I thought I was the only one who picked that up. For all we know, it could be [name your favorite poster] in disguise :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sweeping generalizations like "you can be absolutely sure" are suspicious enough, but when you get to "LS did not look fit enough for this competition" it's pretty obvious this is not someone who is aiming for even-handedness :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

shea'smom
May. 8, 2007, 03:38 PM
Well, we have a mind reader among us.
I can not abide someone looking at a 30 second clip on tv and then reading all sorts of damning motives into it.

egontoast
May. 8, 2007, 03:40 PM
What possible advantage would AT see in pushing on a horse she knew was seriously injured? You can't have it both ways. Either she made a considered decision ( which, if considered, would not support pushing on, what would that gain? ) or she made a mistake in judgement in the moment.

More likely, she made a mistake. If it had been a well considered decision, no onein their right mind would push on a seriously injured horse because there would be nothing to gain.

And as far as the so called 'salinero fiasco', there was no fiasco except in the minds of the usual railbirds who love to find fault with people more talented than themselves.:confused:

Lisa Cook
May. 8, 2007, 03:42 PM
Um.. just because a brand-new poster says they're an upper-level eventer & s/he has ridden at Rolex doesn't make it true. And someone who isn't willing to put their name to their post is someone we might want to take with a grain of salt.

Oh, for Pete's sake. Look at the other post by HMDEngineer. Back in January, where she provides input about riding in 3 day events with lead weights. Sounds like she knows what she's talking about, in regards to upper level eventing.

Where is YOUR name attached to YOUR post, by the way?

Huntertwo
May. 8, 2007, 03:44 PM
I think that's great about your horses. I'd love to see more of that in barrel racing, but generally speaking, the Western horses I see, oh, probably 99.9% have long-shanked bits and not snaffles. If you're telling me that your way of bitting is more usual than the shanks, I'm willing to believe you because you would know.

Is that what you're saying? Not just your horses, but most barrel horses run in snaffles? Believe me, I'm willing to be educated about this.

I also know that I would probably use a different bit xc than for other riding, so don't think I'm saying 4* horses are running xc in rubber snaffles.


Ummm, I've been into barrel racing most of my life. And NO NO NO, they do not ride barrel horses with 6-7 inch shanked bits.

You're probably referring to the Western Pleasure horses, NOT barrel horses...

fuller0819
May. 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
I think that's great about your horses. I'd love to see more of that in barrel racing, but generally speaking, the Western horses I see, oh, probably 99.9% have long-shanked bits and not snaffles. If you're telling me that your way of bitting is more usual than the shanks, I'm willing to believe you because you would know.

Is that what you're saying? Not just your horses, but most barrel horses run in snaffles? Believe me, I'm willing to be educated about this.

I also know that I would probably use a different bit xc than for other riding, so don't think I'm saying 4* horses are running xc in rubber snaffles.

no it is not the norm for barrel racing horses. usually they are rode in alot harsher bits because the training on them is not where it should be and they don't respond well to easy bits. i love my horses and would never do anything to hurt them esp. in training. i train for respect and love not for fear, i believe thats why mine are a lot better. like i said before i never even used spurs or whips on mine and they were in the money everytime. the respect me and what i ask from them. don't get me wrong when they saw the barrel they were hot and ready yet i had complete control to bring them down if need be in the easiest of bits. alot of that had to do with my position on them also. i do believe thats why my one that i used for eventing was so well at it, he was dedicated to his jobs and had the love and care from me that he knew i wouldn't do anything to harm him. he is now retired and has had knee sx and has stem cell inj. in his knee to keep him out of pain and having a happy life with me. thats whats so upsetting to me about the whole AT and LS accident is that a horse that does such hard work for their rider has a respect and love for that rider and trust that rider with their lives out there. its horrible because things do happen all the time to horses in any sport not just eventing but if there was anyway to prevent the accident or stop before it was to far gone i believe you should give that animal the benefit of the doubt that somethings not right with them and thats what they depend on us for. i cherish horses they are amazing and i pray for his owners, i do have bad feeling toward AT because i don't see how she didn't know and like i said before its not like she is going to say yes i knew he was off but i pushed him anyways. i hope this horse's death will teach alot of horse people a lesson, yet i doubt it will.

DMK
May. 8, 2007, 03:55 PM
true enough about barrel racers - I've seen mostly combo hackamore/bits with gag action, but it's been more than a few years since I paid attention. Still, that's plenty of bit and not to be compared to a plain old simple snaffle.

A lot of disciplines drag out the more serious hardware when speed PLUS response is at a premium and as long as the hands hanging on to the reins are educated I don't really think too many educated horse people have a problem with that.

Regardless, I think a whole lot of people agree that there is a place on the way to a jump that both a smart horse and a smart rider feel the best chance for survival involves soldiering on. If that place doesn't exist in barrel racing I'm guessing that and $3.95 gets you a drink at Starbucks, but doesn't have a lot of relevance to *this* conversation. And given the odds are better than Secretariat winning the '73 Belmont that someone will decide that the above means that I think that AT's horse was at that point and this justifies her decision, do me a favor and include this sentence in your quote: I do not think AT/LS were at that time, place or situation.

fuller0819
May. 8, 2007, 04:09 PM
true enough about barrel racers - I've seen mostly combo hackamore/bits with gag action, but it's been more than a few years since I paid attention. Still, that's plenty of bit and not to be compared to a plain old simple snaffle.

A lot of disciplines drag out the more serious hardware when speed PLUS response is at a premium and as long as the hands hanging on to the reins are educated I don't really think too many educated horse people have a problem with that.

Regardless, I think a whole lot of people agree that there is a place on the way to a jump that both a smart horse and a smart rider feel the best chance for survival involves soldiering on. If that place doesn't exist in barrel racing I'm guessing that and $3.95 gets you a drink at Starbucks, but doesn't have a lot of relevance to *this* conversation. And given the odds are better than Secretariat winning the '73 Belmont that someone will decide that the above means that I think that AT's horse was at that point and this justifies her decision, do me a favor and include this sentence in your quote: I do not think AT/LS were at that time, place or situation.

there is a spot of no return on barrels, do you realize how many people die a year in barrel racing because of that small mistake and the horse falls on top of them. yet i'm not going to talk about this anymore, i'm just saying i've done both and they are a lot a like, if you haven't ran a barrel on a top barrel horse you can't say they are not. you are just a spectator just like people that don't event. THE HORSE LOCKS ON A JUMP OR BARREL! yes they take off a lot faster and run harder BUT SHOULDN'T THAT MEAN IF WE CAN PULL ONE OFF THEN A TIRED HORSE AT THE END OF A 11 MIN STRETCH THAT IS MOVING SLOWLY ALREADY AND NOT AT TOP SPEED SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE PULLED OFF. AND IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE XC VIDEO FROM ROLEX AND WERE THERE THEN YOU WOULD KNOW SHE WAS WAY WAY BEFORE THE POINT OF NO RETURN!!! HE WAS WELL OVER 15 STRIDES BEFORE THE NEXT JUMP SO HE COULD HAVE BEEN SAFELY STOPPED

RugBug
May. 8, 2007, 04:26 PM
AND IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE XC VIDEO FROM ROLEX AND WERE THERE THEN YOU WOULD KNOW SHE WAS WAY WAY BEFORE THE POINT OF NO RETURN!!! HE WAS WELL OVER 15 STRIDES BEFORE THE NEXT JUMP SO HE COULD HAVE BEEN SAFELY STOPPED

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you read DMK's last sentence?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

solargal
May. 8, 2007, 04:33 PM
If you watched the video- and if you think she whipped the horse, you did not, you saw a horse and rider galloping to a fence that looked pretty typical (except the lameness part- but his lameness did not look like Barbaro lameness…...) The horse was not pulling her along, nor was it trying to stop. In terms of pace and commitment, it looked fine. It did not look like some trainwreck of rider whipping and carrying on.

:confused:

Uh, it did look like he broke his leg or had a potentially fatal injury. And he did try to stop, he started jogging. :confused:

eks
May. 8, 2007, 04:38 PM
Thank you for your well thought-out, rational post. I agree with everything you said.

I think that you should send a letter to the FEI and USEF stating exactly what you did in your post.

I almost think there needs to be some sort of movement out there to make sure that these National and International organizations know that a large number of eventers are sickened by this incident and want a severe punishment handed down to Amy. I for one would be happy if she never rode for our country again. In my opinion, Olympians are people we should be able to look up to.

What continues to disturb me when I read this board is the people who say we need to "rally around" one of our own just because we are eventers too. I think we need to put the welfare of the horses above everything else.

I am amazed at the ability of some people on this board to continue to bury their heads in the sand and say that maybe Amy didn't know how badly her horse was injured.

Quinn
May. 8, 2007, 04:41 PM
fuller, what our friend RugBug is saying is that DMK is agreeing with you.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

InVA
May. 8, 2007, 04:41 PM
Thank you for your well thought-out, rational post. I agree with everything you said.

I think that you should send a letter to the FEI and USEF stating exactly what you did in your post.

I almost think there needs to be some sort of movement out there to make sure that these National and International organizations know that a large number of eventers are sickened by this incident and want a severe punishment handed down to Amy. I for one would be happy if she never rode for our country again. In my opinion, Olympians are people we should be able to look up to.

What continues to disturb me when I read this board is the people who say we need to "rally around" one of our own just because we are eventers too. I think we need to put the welfare of the horses above everything else.

I am amazed at the ability of some people on this board to continue to bury their heads in the sand and say that maybe Amy didn't know how badly her horse was injured.


AMEN!

War Admiral
May. 8, 2007, 04:44 PM
AMEN!

Thirded....

Jealoushe
May. 8, 2007, 04:52 PM
Um.. just because a brand-new poster says they're an upper-level eventer & s/he has ridden at Rolex doesn't make it true. And someone who isn't willing to put their name to their post is someone we might want to take with a grain of salt. And I find sweeping statements like "You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse" to be a bit credibility-destroying.

The only person who is 100% sure of what she was thinking is the person who was riding. So unless you're Amy - well, you really have no idea. None of us do...

Im sure there are many high level riders who read through the forums and post once in awhile don't leave their names for obvious reasons. If they did leave their name it wouldnt surprise me if someone was quick to jump all over them calling them a "fake" or something. It is true that Amy is the only one who knows what she was thinking, and soon enough we will all know what the FEI is thinking too.

peaches21
May. 8, 2007, 05:25 PM
As a Pony Clubber and an eventer in my previous years, there are ways to pull-up horses so that is no excuse. Everyone knows that grabbing hard on a rein and spinning them in a circle is a fast easy way to do so especailly after four miles of galloping. With the injury the horse sustained it is quite amazing that they made it over the last jump safely. He is a true competitor and did his job but paid a hefty price.
Did she do it on purpose no of course not. However her lack of overly careful judgement could send her on a downward Public Relations nightmare. Just looking at the facts of the FEI statements something isn't right. I know if people were yelling at me to pull up I would do it. There are things I might not be able to see that they can and with horses you never know. It could be a shoe, a broken leg, etc. I would definetely not risk it for the safety of myself and the horse.
Accidents happen, however the safety of the horse should remain the top priority no matter what. I would be interested in knowing the extent of the injury which isn't mentioned anywhere in great detail.

DMK
May. 8, 2007, 05:32 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you read DMK's last sentence?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously not, but the sheer beauty of it was that she did include it in the quote. And really, that's all I asked for, that you would quote me as you proceeded to make an asp of yourself!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

fuller, the other obviously not understood point to my post is that I don't care if there is or is not such a place in barrel racing, because it is neither here nor there to this conversation. Furthermore, if *you * think you can safely pull up a horse at any point before its legs leave the ground, then more power to you, but I think a fair number of us disagree, or at least choose not to try it willingly.

Honestly, you write a bit like you are not taking a breath as you pound away at those keyboard keys, and it seems like maybe you read that way too?

peaches21
May. 8, 2007, 06:01 PM
Also for those who want to do something to protest there are sponsors to influence.

beeblebrox
May. 8, 2007, 06:07 PM
First sorry I did not realize that there were two discussions regarding locked on a fence. Poor reading skills I guess.. I get it now. whew moving on

NOW

"HMDEngineer

"Another point: LS did not look fit enough for this competition. I would have considered pulling that horse up even before he broke down. "

FUNNY you should mention this as another upper level rider in Washington seattle area mentioned to a student that Amy had been struggling to get LS fit and there had been discussions on his fitness before she even left for Rolex.

LLDM
May. 8, 2007, 06:23 PM
I would be interested in knowing the extent of the injury which isn't mentioned anywhere in great detail.

I have looked everywhere for an official diagnosis of LS's injury to no avail. And yes, I think it matters in the scheme of things. I might be wrong on that, but how are people supposed to learn anything without some precise information on what happened.

That said I did ask someone who was in a "position to know" and got a very straightforward, definitive answer - that tracked with what was stated by the Rolex vet official and what was on the downloaded Rolex tape. Because it is hear say, I can't say here. But I will say if you think about it, listen to what the vet said, then, well, you will know (at least you'll know what I think I know) what physically happened to LS.

For those who think it's none of our business, or that it matters not (for whatever reason), I can only say it is part of a teachable moment and could save another horse if people are more aware of what can happen.

SCFarm

KellyS
May. 8, 2007, 06:40 PM
FUNNY you should mention this as another upper level rider in Washington seattle area mentioned to a student that Amy had been struggling to get LS fit and there had been discussions on his fitness before she even left for Rolex.

Which begs the question...would this horse have competed at Rolex if it had been long format? Another poster mentioned earlier in this thread (I think it was this one) that some of the horses competing at Rolex missed half their gallops. Is the short format allowing horses that are not truly fit to compete simply because the absence of roads & tracks/steeplechase allows riders to think that can go with a horse that is not completely fit.

I do not know the answers to these questions. But I do wonder if we have lost the "check and balance" system that the long format set in place. I also wonder if LS's breakdown was not just the result of one poor decision, but instead the result of a string of poor decisions in regards to competing a horse with questionable fitness.

Again, what is written on this thread is heresay, but the discussions/investigations that hae resulted from this incident will hopefully keep this from happening to another horse.

Sandy M
May. 8, 2007, 06:46 PM
"shea'smom

"I do not think Sparky would have jumped the Head of the Lake like he did if there was an injury already. "

HORSES JUMP ALL THE TIME HURT< IT IS WHY THEY HAVE CATASTROPHIC INJURIES. HORSES DO NOT KNOW THAT PAIN COULD RESULT IN THEM FALLING, BREAKING BONES OR RIPPING TENDONS.. THERI BRAINS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS THE HORSES ARE PRETTY BASIC IN THAT WAY.

"I do not agree that a horse in severe pain would just keep going, why on earth do you think a horse would be that stupid?"

WHY DO HORSES BREAK OUT OF FENCES, RUN DOWN THE ROAD. KICK WALLS OF A STALL AND FRACTURE COFFIN BONES, ETC ETC. THEY DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF COMMON SENSE NOR DO THEY HAVE ANY IDEA OF DEATH OR REPERCUSSIONS OF THEIR ACTIONS OUTSIDE A HERD ENVIRONMENT WHERE CAUSE AND EFFECT ARE BASIC (IE ALPHA MARE IS FIRST TO EAT OR I MAY GET MY BUTT KICKED KIND OF THING).

"I am not some blind Amy fan, but it is interesting to me to see how we can all watch this video and see such different things. "

I AM NOT SURE. BUT HAVING WATCHED THE HORSE RUN BEFORE, HE LOOKED VERY LABORED TO ME. ALSO TO SOME OFFICIALS, PEOPLE WATCHING AND OTHER FOLKS LIKE VETS AND TRAINERS WHO HAVE WATCHED IT. HIND SITE BEING 20/20 THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE BUT SHARE THEORIES AND IDEAS I GUESS. POOR HORSE ;-(

With horses, it is not a matter of stupidity. It may look like that to us, but the reality is, a horse is a PREY animal. It's instinct is to HIDE any injury, to keep moving, REGARDLESS. They have to be pretty severely injured to stop moving. We have domesticated the horse and a well-trained horse may listen to its rider and often go against instinct, but I can completely understand why an injured horse goes on - and will jump despite the injury - not because it is stupid but because it's hardwired to keep going.

flyingchange
May. 8, 2007, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeblebrox http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2418198#post2418198)
FUNNY you should mention this as another upper level rider in Washington seattle area mentioned to a student that Amy had been struggling to get LS fit and there had been discussions on his fitness before she even left for Rolex.





:dead:

Ugh. Just kills me. It was obvious he wasn't fit for that kind of galloping (not to mention the obstacles). But now we are hearing that she knew (or was concerned) that he wasn't fit ... and she ran him anyway.

TB or not TB?
May. 8, 2007, 07:03 PM
I'm trying to stay serious and not add to a trainwreck by posting concerns while being open-minded. But I am still giggling incessantly that RugBug was called RugBut. It makes me snort with laughter every time I think about it. :D Were I a lesser person, a new nickname would just have been coined.

BarbB
May. 8, 2007, 07:20 PM
FUNNY you should mention this as another upper level rider in Washington seattle area mentioned to a student that Amy had been struggling to get LS fit and there had been discussions on his fitness before she even left for Rolex.

my neighbor's sister's friend's third cousin's daughter's school chum, who once rode a real horse, says.........:rolleyes:

this stuff isn't even hearsay....it's just gossip

Why don't you all pull your claws in and wipe the spit off your chins.

RugBug
May. 8, 2007, 07:23 PM
I'm trying to stay serious and not add to a trainwreck by posting concerns while being open-minded. But I am still giggling incessantly that RugBug was called RugBut. It makes me snort with laughter every time I think about it. :D Were I a lesser person, a new nickname would just have been coined.

Well, please remain on the higher ground...although I am happy I can afford you some joy. :lol: :winkgrin:

flyingchange
May. 8, 2007, 07:24 PM
BarbB - I was trying to quote beeblebox's post. That is not something that I stated.

Yes it may be hearsay/gossip ... and I hope it is.

Jealoushe
May. 8, 2007, 07:27 PM
Sure its hearsay, but the problems between the horse/rider combination are even mentioned on her own website.

magnolia73
May. 8, 2007, 07:38 PM
This is heading into the station.......

You can say ANYTHING anonymously online. I can say that my friend who rides in Florida heard that Darren Chiachia clubbed La Samurai in the start box. I mean, we have people who seem to think she was thrashing the horse with the whip like the person who whipped Black Beauty back in London when he pulled a cart. We have people who think the horse was out of shape because they heard it from a friend whooooo heard it from a friend whoooooooo heard it from another she was underprepared.... We have people who talked to people "in the know" but can't say what they said but if we knew it would be interesting. I mean, hell, just say it- trains left the station- was the horse some kind of robot or something. Then she should be able to stop the horse mid air if only she used a barrel racing bit.

It's like holy moses- who morphed the eventers into the HJ/Dressage set? Do we need to bring up peeps and baby carrots to derail the wreck? Do we need Moesha? Yeah- baby carrots- I lost all respect when I found out she fed her horses baby carrots. Psychotic loon abusing veggies.

Petalstorm
May. 8, 2007, 07:53 PM
Since it looks like you know how to use a dictionary, why don't you try looking up delusional? I think it will be much easier to find than dillusional...........
Just sayin;)

Yeah, spelling isn't my strong sooot.

Sannois
May. 8, 2007, 07:55 PM
I am not a regular poster on this forum, although I visit it on occasion. I have been quite amazed (and dismayed) at some of the comments I have seen posted on this thread. As an upper level event rider for nearly a decade (now retired), I have competed widely around the country, including Rolex. And in all those years, I have never observed anything as heartbreaking and indefensible as Amy Tryon's continuing to GALLOP and JUMP
a horse in such obvious distress.
You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse. You don't make it to that level without being able to feel the most subtle of gait irregularities. And my goodness, LS was virtually 3-legged lame at the canter! And generally, 3 legged lame at the canter is hardly ever just a shoe or a grab. (In fact, in all my 20+ years in competition with dozens of thrown shoes, I have never even known a shoe was gone until I dismounted at the finish. Any lameness as a result always showed up later in the day, probably after the adrenalin wore off. No doubt someone will write in to say that a thrown or wrenched shoe once caused the exact same symptoms in their horse as LS's, but I just have never seen it. I have, however, seen horses break legs and rupture tendons who suddenly went lame just like LS did.) In any case, I cannot imagine that Amy was unaware that the horse underneath her could have suffered a catastrophic injury of some sort, as opposed to just a grab or a shoe or something minor. It seems to me that she was playing the odds, very long ones, that he just might be OK. And surely, can anyone seriously maintain that to continue galloping and jumping on that leg would have had no affect on the severity of the injury? And, to those of you who are thinking that way, are you saying it was OK to gallop on because it was a fatal injury anyway????
As for Amy's behaviour at the finish line, I have a different take on why she acted as she did. There are always officials at the finish line, and she stood to be eliminated and sanctioned for riding in a lame horse, and so she could hardly advertise that that is exactly what she just did. And, of course, it is well ingrained into every rider not to draw undue attention to any possible lameness issue. Otherwise the vets may give your horse extra scrutiny at the jog on Sunday. (Perhaps she was still in "diehard eventer" mode hoping she could somehow ice and laser LS through the problem and actually present him for the jog. Who knows?) The point is that she committed herself to a plan when she did not pull him up, and so I suspect she played it all the way out including at the finish line.
Another point: LS did not look fit enough for this competition. I would have considered pulling that horse up even before he broke down. And once I felt him stumble and take the one or two bad steps, I would have been off. I am sure that horse would have been no problem to stop. He was trying to stop for goodness sake.
I do not know Amy personally, and, no doubt, she has many excellent qualities. But the bottom line is that she did NOT make a bad MISTAKE. She made a bad DECISION. And it probably cost LS his life. And I think that unless significant consequences are forthcoming, we are sending out the wrong message that it's OK to ride irresponsibly as long as you don't mean to hurt the horse, or that it's OK because you are a nice person who loves horses and works hard, etc., etc....
When you compete at this level and on horses with this much heart, you have the moral responsibility to go the extra mile to ALWAYS insure the safety and wellbeing of the horse. What I observed was sickening. And so unnecessary.
If Amy does not deserve our condemnation, then who does? What would a rider have to do to merit a suspension? I am having trouble imagining anything much worse. I ask you, what if the horse she was riding was your horse? Would it not tear your heart out to watch that video then? Would you still defend her? I can assure you she knew she had a very lame horse under her, she was well able to pull him up, and she did not.
Personally, I think that if she is allowed to compete in Hong Kong at the
test event and at the Luhmuhlen ****, then the FEI and the USEF have failed in their responsibility to protect the welfare of our competition horses.
To paraphrase an old saying, the only way that evil can triumph is if good people do nothing. While I do not suppose Amy is "evil", what she did was horrific. And I think we, as horseman, owe more to our horses than we do to Amy. Amy needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for her decisions (and as one poster pointed out, she was making multiple bad decisions - one for each additional lame stride he took after his initial breakdown.)
Finally, I am sure I will be beaten up over this post. So be it. However, since some of you expressed an interest in an upper level rider's opinion, here it is. However, even my little novice student would have hopped off that horse. I do not think you need to have ridden at Rolex to assess what happened on that course. In fact, the lower level riders can help provide some much needed perspective to the "win at any cost" mentality of some of our elite riders.

This is the way this issue needs to be viewed!
I dont know who you are but I daresay I hope the majority of Upper level eventers feel this way. Thank you for your wise comments.
:yes:

Anne FS
May. 8, 2007, 08:07 PM
AT will be dealt with by the FEI ....

Where does that leave the sport and those who love it?

I think in a good place.

IMHO Eventing is the only horse sport that advocates so strongly for the horse. I think HMDEngineer put articulately what the vast majority of eventers think and feel. The mere fact that so many eventers are shining a light on this incident and DEALING with it instead of sweeping it under the rug speaks volumes for the integrity of the sport.

I know that most people in all horse sports love their horses and care wonderfully for them, and that all horse sports do advocate for their horses.

But I believe eventing does it best.

TB or not TB?
May. 8, 2007, 08:07 PM
Well, please remain on the higher ground...although I am happy I can afford you some joy. :lol: :winkgrin:

Wouldn't DREAM of taking the low road. :D

Petalstorm
May. 8, 2007, 08:45 PM
I am not a regular poster on this forum, although I visit it on occasion. I have been quite amazed (and dismayed) at some of the comments I have seen posted on this thread. As an upper level event rider for nearly a decade (now retired), I have competed widely around the country, including Rolex. And in all those years, I have never observed anything as heartbreaking and indefensible as Amy Tryon's continuing to GALLOP and JUMP
a horse in such obvious distress.
You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse. You don't make it to that level without being able to feel the most subtle of gait irregularities. And my goodness, LS was virtually 3-legged lame at the canter! And generally, 3 legged lame at the canter is hardly ever just a shoe or a grab. (In fact, in all my 20+ years in competition with dozens of thrown shoes, I have never even known a shoe was gone until I dismounted at the finish. Any lameness as a result always showed up later in the day, probably after the adrenalin wore off. No doubt someone will write in to say that a thrown or wrenched shoe once caused the exact same symptoms in their horse as LS's, but I just have never seen it. I have, however, seen horses break legs and rupture tendons who suddenly went lame just like LS did.) In any case, I cannot imagine that Amy was unaware that the horse underneath her could have suffered a catastrophic injury of some sort, as opposed to just a grab or a shoe or something minor. It seems to me that she was playing the odds, very long ones, that he just might be OK. And surely, can anyone seriously maintain that to continue galloping and jumping on that leg would have had no affect on the severity of the injury? And, to those of you who are thinking that way, are you saying it was OK to gallop on because it was a fatal injury anyway????
As for Amy's behaviour at the finish line, I have a different take on why she acted as she did. There are always officials at the finish line, and she stood to be eliminated and sanctioned for riding in a lame horse, and so she could hardly advertise that that is exactly what she just did. And, of course, it is well ingrained into every rider not to draw undue attention to any possible lameness issue. Otherwise the vets may give your horse extra scrutiny at the jog on Sunday. (Perhaps she was still in "diehard eventer" mode hoping she could somehow ice and laser LS through the problem and actually present him for the jog. Who knows?) The point is that she committed herself to a plan when she did not pull him up, and so I suspect she played it all the way out including at the finish line.
Another point: LS did not look fit enough for this competition. I would have considered pulling that horse up even before he broke down. And once I felt him stumble and take the one or two bad steps, I would have been off. I am sure that horse would have been no problem to stop. He was trying to stop for goodness sake.
I do not know Amy personally, and, no doubt, she has many excellent qualities. But the bottom line is that she did NOT make a bad MISTAKE. She made a bad DECISION. And it probably cost LS his life. And I think that unless significant consequences are forthcoming, we are sending out the wrong message that it's OK to ride irresponsibly as long as you don't mean to hurt the horse, or that it's OK because you are a nice person who loves horses and works hard, etc., etc....
When you compete at this level and on horses with this much heart, you have the moral responsibility to go the extra mile to ALWAYS insure the safety and wellbeing of the horse. What I observed was sickening. And so unnecessary.
If Amy does not deserve our condemnation, then who does? What would a rider have to do to merit a suspension? I am having trouble imagining anything much worse. I ask you, what if the horse she was riding was your horse? Would it not tear your heart out to watch that video then? Would you still defend her? I can assure you she knew she had a very lame horse under her, she was well able to pull him up, and she did not.
Personally, I think that if she is allowed to compete in Hong Kong at the
test event and at the Luhmuhlen ****, then the FEI and the USEF have failed in their responsibility to protect the welfare of our competition horses.
To paraphrase an old saying, the only way that evil can triumph is if good people do nothing. While I do not suppose Amy is "evil", what she did was horrific. And I think we, as horseman, owe more to our horses than we do to Amy. Amy needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for her decisions (and as one poster pointed out, she was making multiple bad decisions - one for each additional lame stride he took after his initial breakdown.)
Finally, I am sure I will be beaten up over this post. So be it. However, since some of you expressed an interest in an upper level rider's opinion, here it is. However, even my little novice student would have hopped off that horse. I do not think you need to have ridden at Rolex to assess what happened on that course. In fact, the lower level riders can help provide some much needed perspective to the "win at any cost" mentality of some of our elite riders.


THIS SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!

Kudos to you for stepping up and sharing your point of view.

dogchushu
May. 8, 2007, 08:58 PM
...heard it from a friend whooooo heard it from a friend whoooooooo heard it from another she was underprepared....

Great. Child of the 80's that I am, I'm now going to be singing that all night. :rolleyes:

LE
May. 8, 2007, 09:10 PM
My goodness. Many people here should be on the FEI commity huh?

I don't think so.

Unless you were all there riding Le Samuri, you really can't comment on what you would do. Horses can look very lame, and feel 100% sound. I know this first hand. Also, galloping at that speed, and feeling something--do all of you pull up your horses when they stumble? Buckle a leg? I highly doubt it.

Maybe Amy made a bad judgement call. So, what, burn her at the stake? Then you better get ready to burn the jockey who rode Barbaro, Michael Matz, all the vets on his team, the Jacksons and all the other people who ride horses, including you.

GEt a grip folks. Much worse things go on in this industry. Beatings, horse abuse, drugging, etc. This was an accident. A judgement error that Mrs Tryon is going agonize for the rest of her life over. Haven't any of you made a judgement mistake that you agonize over?

Right, you're all perfect.

Magnolia--thanks for your post.

arnika
May. 8, 2007, 09:15 PM
I believe HMDEngineer said it all.

I for one hope the FEI makes their decision known prior to Germany and Hong Kong.

Huntertwo
May. 8, 2007, 10:52 PM
I'm glad you mentioned this, because I saw it too but thought perhaps it was just because of my opinion on the matter. When the vets were dealing with the horse, she was holding his head, they were just after the finish line... she looked annoyed, almost in a huff. I was shocked to say the least, I expected tears, or a look of fear or kisses to be given to the horse...something! In Mark Todds Biography "So Good, So Far" he talks about losing a horse at Badminton, and he tells how he cried, how he was in agony and could barely leave the horses side. When you have a connection with a horse, I couldnt imagine anything else. I can understand there were probably more than a million things going through the poor girls head, but the horse did not seem to be the #1.

I have to say that was the first thing I noticed when she dismounted. Maybe it was a 30 second snipet, but I didn't see a real concern on her face. Unless I missed it, she never even looked down at his leg, but stared off *somewhere else*. I know if that was my horse, you bet I'd be down on my hands and knees checking her condition, even if I just ran a 4 mile course. :no:

nature
May. 8, 2007, 10:57 PM
At least loosen his girth and noseband! I do that when even I am done riding and especially after cross-country.

shea'smom
May. 8, 2007, 11:15 PM
Jealoushe, Nature and Huntertwo,
I would specifically like to address this to the three of you.
Are you so positive that you can unfailingly read someone else's emotions off a short video clip, someone who has just suffered a traumatic event?
Are you so positive that you feel justified in coming here and posting your own reaction to the video as fact?
Do you really think this is fair?
I honestly find this troubling.
Seperately from this whole issue, are you so sure that you can be so damning of her emotions? She probably didn't even know what she felt.
I find this so unfair of you. Please don't say she was unfair to the horse, I am talking about you.
The bald facts are one thing to discuss, don't make up a whole scenario to support your postion.

summerhorse
May. 8, 2007, 11:19 PM
I am not a regular poster on this forum, although I visit it on occasion. I have been quite amazed (and dismayed) at some of the comments I have seen posted on this thread. As an upper level event rider for nearly a decade (now retired), I have competed widely around the country, including Rolex. And in all those years, I have never observed anything as heartbreaking and indefensible as Amy Tryon's continuing to GALLOP and JUMP
a horse in such obvious distress.
You can be absolutely sure that she knew she was riding a very, very lame horse. You don't make it to that level without being able to feel the most subtle of gait irregularities. And my goodness, LS was virtually 3-legged lame at the canter! And generally, 3 legged lame at the canter is hardly ever just a shoe or a grab. (In fact, in all my 20+ years in competition with dozens of thrown shoes, I have never even known a shoe was gone until I dismounted at the finish. Any lameness as a result always showed up later in the day, probably after the adrenalin wore off. No doubt someone will write in to say that a thrown or wrenched shoe once caused the exact same symptoms in their horse as LS's, but I just have never seen it. I have, however, seen horses break legs and rupture tendons who suddenly went lame just like LS did.) In any case, I cannot imagine that Amy was unaware that the horse underneath her could have suffered a catastrophic injury of some sort, as opposed to just a grab or a shoe or something minor. It seems to me that she was playing the odds, very long ones, that he just might be OK. And surely, can anyone seriously maintain that to continue galloping and jumping on that leg would have had no affect on the severity of the injury? And, to those of you who are thinking that way, are you saying it was OK to gallop on because it was a fatal injury anyway????
As for Amy's behaviour at the finish line, I have a different take on why she acted as she did. There are always officials at the finish line, and she stood to be eliminated and sanctioned for riding in a lame horse, and so she could hardly advertise that that is exactly what she just did. And, of course, it is well ingrained into every rider not to draw undue attention to any possible lameness issue. Otherwise the vets may give your horse extra scrutiny at the jog on Sunday. (Perhaps she was still in "diehard eventer" mode hoping she could somehow ice and laser LS through the problem and actually present him for the jog. Who knows?) The point is that she committed herself to a plan when she did not pull him up, and so I suspect she played it all the way out including at the finish line.
Another point: LS did not look fit enough for this competition. I would have considered pulling that horse up even before he broke down. And once I felt him stumble and take the one or two bad steps, I would have been off. I am sure that horse would have been no problem to stop. He was trying to stop for goodness sake.
I do not know Amy personally, and, no doubt, she has many excellent qualities. But the bottom line is that she did NOT make a bad MISTAKE. She made a bad DECISION. And it probably cost LS his life. And I think that unless significant consequences are forthcoming, we are sending out the wrong message that it's OK to ride irresponsibly as long as you don't mean to hurt the horse, or that it's OK because you are a nice person who loves horses and works hard, etc., etc....
When you compete at this level and on horses with this much heart, you have the moral responsibility to go the extra mile to ALWAYS insure the safety and wellbeing of the horse. What I observed was sickening. And so unnecessary.
If Amy does not deserve our condemnation, then who does? What would a rider have to do to merit a suspension? I am having trouble imagining anything much worse. I ask you, what if the horse she was riding was your horse? Would it not tear your heart out to watch that video then? Would you still defend her? I can assure you she knew she had a very lame horse under her, she was well able to pull him up, and she did not.
Personally, I think that if she is allowed to compete in Hong Kong at the
test event and at the Luhmuhlen ****, then the FEI and the USEF have failed in their responsibility to protect the welfare of our competition horses.
To paraphrase an old saying, the only way that evil can triumph is if good people do nothing. While I do not suppose Amy is "evil", what she did was horrific. And I think we, as horseman, owe more to our horses than we do to Amy. Amy needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for her decisions (and as one poster pointed out, she was making multiple bad decisions - one for each additional lame stride he took after his initial breakdown.)
Finally, I am sure I will be beaten up over this post. So be it. However, since some of you expressed an interest in an upper level rider's opinion, here it is. However, even my little novice student would have hopped off that horse. I do not think you need to have ridden at Rolex to assess what happened on that course. In fact, the lower level riders can help provide some much needed perspective to the "win at any cost" mentality of some of our elite riders.


Great post!!

LE
May. 8, 2007, 11:34 PM
FYI--if you saw the NBC broadcast, they showed Amy undoing that horse's gear and hugging him while the vet team checked him and the grooms undid his saddle etc. I was very impressed that she didn't leave his side.

She did nothing that would imply abuse. Trust me, I've seen abuse. She made an error in judgement, and I'd like to see all of you in the same situation. it's easy to say what you would do watching it on tv. It's a whole other story as to what you would do given the actual circumstances.

Jealoushe
May. 8, 2007, 11:35 PM
Jealoushe, Nature and Huntertwo,
I would specifically like to address this to the three of you.
Are you so positive that you can unfailingly read someone else's emotions off a short video clip, someone who has just suffered a traumatic event?
Are you so positive that you feel justified in coming here and posting your own reaction to the video as fact?
Do you really think this is fair?
I honestly find this troubling.
Seperately from this whole issue, are you so sure that you can be so damning of her emotions? She probably didn't even know what she felt.
I find this so unfair of you. Please don't say she was unfair to the horse, I am talking about you.
The bald facts are one thing to discuss, don't make up a whole scenario to support your postion.


As I did say before, that was just my reaction to what I SAW. I also said Im sure there were a million things running through her head, but at the same time I said her horse did not look as though it was number one in her mind. I can definitly assure you that you wouldn't question how Mr. Fredericks was feeling when they showed his face for just 10 seconds after he won. But it was only a 10 second clip! Yet we all know he was ecstatic! I believe what I saw, in her actions and reactions while riding and dismounting the horse. I have a massive collection of Olympic/ Rolex/ Badminton/ Burghley videos I watched when I was younger, and I can think of several specific riders who get off and check their horses over over little trips, a fall, whatever. Their actions and expressions. I never claimed my opinion as fact, simply my opinion. As my profession is to read people, I think I am quite confident in supporting what I have said.

nature
May. 8, 2007, 11:39 PM
Jealoushe, Nature and Huntertwo,
I would specifically like to address this to the three of you.
Are you so positive that you can unfailingly read someone else's emotions off a short video clip, someone who has just suffered a traumatic event?
Are you so positive that you feel justified in coming here and posting your own reaction to the video as fact?
Do you really think this is fair?
I honestly find this troubling.
Seperately from this whole issue, are you so sure that you can be so damning of her emotions? She probably didn't even know what she felt.
I find this so unfair of you. Please don't say she was unfair to the horse, I am talking about you.
The bald facts are one thing to discuss, don't make up a whole scenario to support your postion.

My statement was simple. Just loosen the girth and make the horse as comfortable as possible. I made no mention of emotion, her face or any such thing. Just loosen the girth of an injured horse try to make him comfortable.

DevilsAdvocate
May. 8, 2007, 11:45 PM
Personally, I feel as though we can not judge what we have not lived. I for one, have never ridden a CCI**** TB eventer over a 4 mile 34 jump course, I cant speak on what she felt as she was riding. I do know within my own eventing experiences, my horse has clipped and banged fences so badly I figured he would be lame or at the least sore. These things happen ALOT in eventing, especially at the upper levels. I cant even imagine the amount of pure muscle she had working underneath her let alone all of the adrenaline. I have problems checking my training level horse before fences bc of how hyped he gets. After watching the Rolex on Sunday, I dont believe she had much time, if any, to assess exactly what was going on. It really did look like he just took a bad step or clipped himself from behind. If she had tried to stop him, she could have severly injured him further, risking tangling him in a fence. Think about how long it took Edgar Prado to stop Barbaro during the Preakness last year, and he wasnt even a quarter of a mile out of the gate, had flat terrain and had jumped nothing. Its alot of muscle and alot of heart your fighting against (think Ruffian).

To the comments that Amy looked like she wasnt concerned..its called SHOCK. She probably had no idea what she was feeling and what was going on exactly. She probably had a million thoughts running through her head.

Lets not kick our own when they are already wounded people.

nature
May. 8, 2007, 11:53 PM
FYI--if you saw the NBC broadcast, they showed Amy undoing that horse's gear and hugging him while the vet team checked him and the grooms undid his saddle etc. I was very impressed that she didn't leave his side.

She did nothing that would imply abuse. Trust me, I've seen abuse. She made an error in judgement, and I'd like to see all of you in the same situation. it's easy to say what you would do watching it on tv. It's a whole other story as to what you would do given the actual circumstances.


The NBC video was edited. They cut out some of the video from the time Amy had dismounted and when the help arrived. On the Youtube video, ther e was quite a bit more time from when she dismounted and the help arrived. YOu said it yourself...While the GROOMS undid his saddle. She could have had it loosened long before the help arrived.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:12 AM
I can't believe that anyone would still try to defend what she did. Doesn't the horse's well being always come before the human's feelings to horse people? What a load of crap - "you need to walk in her shoes before you judge, blah, blah, blah....". The greatest "suffering" was what that horse went through. And probably, he should have been put down as soon as they realized what the injuries were, but someone was trying to save face. For god's sake, how can a horse EVER be sound again after that kind of an injury? You don't have to be a brain surgeon to realize that.
I think that if the FEI lets this go, there goes eventing, for good. That upper level event rider's post told the truth. You'd have to be a moron to think she didn't feel that. And why, was she whipping (yes, I saw her hit him with the crop a few times....) and pushing that tired horse before the bad step, anyway? The whole reason for the bad step to begin with was physical exhaustion.
It's time to pay the piper.

Erin
May. 9, 2007, 12:19 AM
And probably, he should have been put down as soon as they realized what the injuries were, but someone was trying to save face. For god's sake, how can a horse EVER be sound again after that kind of an injury. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to realize that.

And you know it was "that kind of injury" how, exactly? They haven't given a detailed statement on what the injury was.


And why, was she whipping (yes, I saw her hit him with the crop a few times....) and pushing that tired horse before the bad step, anyway? The whole reason for the bad step to begin with was physical exhaustion.

Again, you know he was "exhausted" how?

Why do people insist on making these sweeping statements of fact, and presenting them as if there was no doubt? Sheesh...

And no, I'm not "defending" anyone. I fall into the camp of "Yikes, that looked BAD! But there's no point in judging until the facts come out."

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:29 AM
The injury was, from my understanding, in crude terminology, one in which the soft tissue was ripped off the bone. Those types of injuries usually happen with tired horses taking a misstep. You can see him step in a hole or something on the NBC video. Regardless, it was a bad enough injury that the horse was hopping, trantering etc. despite what adrenaline covers, and it was a bad enough injury that the horse had to be put down.
And you can tell that the horse was exhausted just watching the video. I know a horse that's too tired when I see one. THAT'S been part of MY training, as I'm sure it was part of hers.
You can watch that video and see it with your own eyes - my god, I had nonhorsepeople watch it and they were appalled. They told me that they thought she should be banned from eventing forever....

wanderlust
May. 9, 2007, 12:31 AM
HMDengineer, thank you for your post. I agree wholeheartedly.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:34 AM
Yes, that was the post to which I was referring - HMDengineer's. True that!

hb
May. 9, 2007, 01:08 AM
I think that if the FEI lets this go, there goes eventing, for good.


Why? There have been horses injured in events before. There are breakdowns in racing every day. Why is this one different? Why would this particular accident be the end?

beeblebrox
May. 9, 2007, 01:21 AM
"LE
She did nothing that would imply abuse. Trust me, I've seen abuse. She made an error in judgement, and I'd like to see all of you in the same situation."


OK so it is not abuse in your book if person perpetrating the act did not mean it? Or want to knowingly hurt a animal or person is is not abuse???

It should not be punishable if it was just a error in judgement or a bad choice?
I do not think anyone on this board or in the industry thinks she HURT the horse deliberately or with malice. She is most likely devastated as anyone on this board would be to loose a horse.

Not meaning to do something does not absolve you from repercussions and responsibility.

TECHNICAL abuse based on rules of a organization (FEI. USEA USEF) may not always have the face of "abuse" people see in their minds.

For example the father found guilty of abuse and negligence by leaving his toddler in the car who later died of heat issues never meant to kill his son, he loved his son and was devastated beyond words but he made a error and was held accountable. I AM NOT COMPARING THIS TO THE ROLEX EVENT just as a example of someone who was prosecuted under the label abuse and gross negligence WHO DID NOT MEAN IT.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 01:36 AM
ABUSE: to use improperly or injuriously;misuse

I think this qualifies. I feel that she abused his body and his good nature, with all of his heart.
She knowingly rode on to finish, gambling on how much it was hurting him, that maybe she could squeek by to the finish.
She definately misused this horse.

Pippigirl
May. 9, 2007, 02:06 AM
FYI--if you saw the NBC broadcast, they showed Amy undoing that horse's gear and hugging him while the vet team checked him and the grooms undid his saddle etc. I was very impressed that she didn't leave his side.

She did nothing that would imply abuse. Trust me, I've seen abuse. She made an error in judgement, and I'd like to see all of you in the same situation. it's easy to say what you would do watching it on tv. It's a whole other story as to what you would do given the actual circumstances.

It showed a tender moment when Amy was hugging her horse...maybe she realized how hurt he was then? She didn't seem to be in a hurry to pull him up and get off until she crossed the finish line...

buschkn
May. 9, 2007, 03:14 AM
I feel that HMDengineer's post succintly states what so many of us have been trying to get across. It bears re-reading many times over by everyone. Perhaps his/her post will garner more respect due to being an UL rider.

I am also curious if there is any kind of movement to form a letter campaign or petition to the FEI/USEA/USEF regarding how this affects us and our general stance on it.

I nominate HMDengineer to write it! I'll be the first to sign. :)

canterlope
May. 9, 2007, 04:58 AM
I am also curious if there is any kind of movement to form a letter campaign or petition to the FEI/USEA/USEF regarding how this affects us and our general stance on it.The Brits sent a letter to the FEI early last week. Other than that, I have not heard of a petition or letter campaign.

LisaB
May. 9, 2007, 09:09 AM
HMDEngineer for president!!!

Huntertwo
May. 9, 2007, 09:12 AM
Jealoushe, Nature and Huntertwo,
I would specifically like to address this to the three of you.
Are you so positive that you can unfailingly read someone else's emotions off a short video clip, someone who has just suffered a traumatic event?
Are you so positive that you feel justified in coming here and posting your own reaction to the video as fact?
Do you really think this is fair?
I honestly find this troubling.
Seperately from this whole issue, are you so sure that you can be so damning of her emotions? She probably didn't even know what she felt.
I find this so unfair of you. Please don't say she was unfair to the horse, I am talking about you.
The bald facts are one thing to discuss, don't make up a whole scenario to support your postion.

As I said, I based my opinion on what I saw on the brief broadcast of her off her horse. Period.

I wasn't damning her emotions, so don't put words into my mouth.

And as someone said (I didn't hear it) people were yelling at her to pull up her horse. I know damn well if I heard that, I would stop immediately. Obviously they saw something she didn't.

magnolia73
May. 9, 2007, 09:34 AM
people were yelling at her to pull up her horse. I know damn well if I heard that, I would stop immediately

You are jumping a horse XC, galloping, on a course crowded with people cheering. You, as an eventer KNOW that people are not to yell advice from the stands. You probably are not particularly tuned into the crowd. Hell, if I am jumping, probably at least 50% of the time, my instructor sounds like the school teacher from Snoopy when I am cantering to a jump.

I don't know why people want to make this worse. It's bad enough that she did not seemingly note a lame horse. Why must we make her out to be awful for not loosening a girth? For not listening to the crowd? For using her crop? I bet many riders took their crops to a tired horse and got off and waited a second to loosen a girth. I'm so glad that all of you would have immediately pulled up the moment the horse tired, gotten off, loosened the girth and burst out in tears for the camera. Christ at least she didn't sit there on him and whip out her cell phone to call mommy.

And sorry for the earlier REO Speedwagon reference to all 80's children.

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 09:57 AM
The Brits sent a letter to the FEI early last week.

Saying what?

xtwistx
May. 9, 2007, 10:24 AM
"You are jumping a horse XC, galloping, on a course crowded with people cheering. You, as an eventer KNOW that people are not to yell advice from the stands. You probably are not particularly tuned into the crowd. Hell, if I am jumping, probably at least 50% of the time, my instructor sounds like the school teacher from Snoopy when I am cantering to a jump."

Icare D'Auzay, the horse who got fatally speared by a flag pole at Badminton was in the middle of the course, mid gallop. The horse didn't go lame, but the crowd screamed at the rider to pull up because of the blood pumping out of the horse, and he did so immediately. So its rubbish to say that riders cannot hear what the crowd are shouting.

LisaB
May. 9, 2007, 10:38 AM
Magnolia,
It's because she did do these things that we are pointing them out. Christ, I got pulled up this weekend. I almost ran over a toddler and my horse supposedly is not even comparably trained to an adv horse and I'm a Smurf!
I'm not saying that I don't make mistake but jeez! get a grip!
And as far as boo hooing, if you caught Athens, the french guy with the stunning grey horse was doing just so because his horse got hurt and luckily he was able to rehab him. But in the name of team, he carried on and I would venture a guess he won't do it again. oooh, I'm onto something! Yes, he continued with the 2nd sj and he knew his horse was doing so hot but carried on anyway and the look on his face, he probably completely regretted it. Decisions...right or wrong.
She knowingly took to the crop 3 times for each fence. Knowing she couldn't use it any more than that. Also, knowing that using the crop for each fence is allowed, there's no total whippings because no one has even considered it.

peaches21
May. 9, 2007, 11:09 AM
I have looked everywhere for an official diagnosis of LS's injury to no avail. And yes, I think it matters in the scheme of things. I might be wrong on that, but how are people supposed to learn anything without some precise information on what happened.

That said I did ask someone who was in a "position to know" and got a very straightforward, definitive answer - that tracked with what was stated by the Rolex vet official and what was on the downloaded Rolex tape. Because it is hear say, I can't say here. But I will say if you think about it, listen to what the vet said, then, well, you will know (at least you'll know what I think I know) what physically happened to LS.

For those who think it's none of our business, or that it matters not (for whatever reason), I can only say it is part of a teachable moment and could save another horse if people are more aware of what can happen.

SCFarm

I just think with all the floods of pictures and updates on Barbaro it really helped out. A.) You saw how devastating the injury was and what challenge they had in front of them. B.) It shows just how hard everyone was really pulling for the horse including trainers, owners, jockeys C.) I think it has helped horse racing in bring the passion and love back to it. Living in Kentucky I have donated to the Barbaro Foundation because seeing how close they were to getting him in the clear is inspiring after the extent of the injuries he sustained. So with that said they need to bring it out into the open and let the general public see what happened. Until they do that the situation will continue to go in a downward spiral fast just simply because the facts aren't known.

Janet
May. 9, 2007, 11:12 AM
And as far as boo hooing, if you caught Athens, the french guy with the stunning grey horse was doing just so because his horse got hurt and luckily he was able to rehab him. But in the name of team, he carried on and I would venture a guess he won't do it again. oooh, I'm onto something! Yes, he continued with the 2nd sj and he knew his horse was doing so hot but carried on anyway and the look on his face, he probably completely regretted it. Decisions...right or wrong.
I thought the second SJ round was for the individual medal, not the team medal.

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 11:15 AM
So with that said they need to bring it out into the open and let the general public see what happened. Until they do that the situation will continue to go in a downward spiral fast just simply because the facts aren't known.

The facts aren't known to you and me, but they're known. The FEI investigation proceeds and will come out in due time. There is no reason on earth why they should rush to get things out so we on this bb as well as the general public can see what happened instantaneously. Give them time to complete their investigation. I have every confidence in the eventing community and the FEI in this case, and think it's totally uncalled for to say "the situation will continue to go in a downward spiral fast."

Good grief. This situation is NOT going in a downward spiral. Why do you say that?

canterlope
May. 9, 2007, 11:26 AM
Saying what?I did not see the letter and don't know the specifics, but it was reported to be a general letter explaining how shocked the signers were in Amy's handling of a terrible situation and her obvious lack of respect for the horse's welfare.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:28 AM
Magnolia,
She knowingly took to the crop 3 times for each fence. Knowing she couldn't use it any more than that. Also, knowing that using the crop for each fence is allowed, there's no total whippings because no one has even considered it.

Did she do that throughout the course or just towards the end? (I haven't watched the video since I zeroed in on her accident, nor do I have any interest in watching the rest. I have a bad taste in my mouth about the whole event now, which sucks since I paid for it.)

And that's it - "lack of respect" for the horse....that says it all.
I just know that I don't want anyone representing my country behaving this way.....

magnolia73
May. 9, 2007, 11:30 AM
This situation is NOT going in a downward spiral

Because people keep bringing up more unsupported info that casts the rider in a worse light.

From the video I watched- she never hit the horse with a whip.
From the video I watched she hopped off after the finish line and seemed somewhat concerned
From the video I watched, she appeared pretty unaware of the severity the problem and did not try to stop

I can draw no conclusions about her hearing the crowd yelling, her horses lack of preparation, the real injury, her ability to stop her horse, her sadness at what happened..... I don't see how others can draw conclusions. If someone can point me to evidence to her whipping the horse, listening to the crowd, or getting off the horse with a huge smile, I will stand corrected.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:36 AM
Yes, she did hit him with the crop at the fences prior to the last one. It shows it clearly on the NBC video. And she did not hop off that horse right away. She kept him going for a bit even after the finish line and "looked" dumbfounded when people ran over to the horse. She "did not try to stop" because she wanted to FINISH.... that's the whole point!

canterlope
May. 9, 2007, 11:42 AM
She knowingly took to the crop 3 times for each fence. Knowing she couldn't use it any more than that. Also, knowing that using the crop for each fence is allowed, there's no total whippings because no one has even considered it.Hey Lisa, I think you've gotten the use of a whip rules a bit muddled. There are two allowable uses, as an aid to go forward and as a reprimand. When using it as a reprimand, the rider may not hit the horse more than three times. However, as an aid to go forward, there is no limit on how many times a rider may hit the horse.

LisaB
May. 9, 2007, 11:44 AM
Well crap, I don't even carry a crop. So what the heck do I know???

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 11:44 AM
She "did not try to stop" because she wanted to FINISH.... that's the whole point!

Or because she didn't know how severe the injury was.

There is almost always more than one conclusion in situations like these. If you can't see that, you can't add much to the discussion but emotional outcry...which does no one any good.

I certainly hope the FEI are the rational folk who can see that there are many possibilities in how the situation went down and they carefully sift through the FACTS to draw the conclusion with the most supporting evidence.

shea'smom
May. 9, 2007, 11:50 AM
Hunter Two, this is what you said.

I have to say that was the first thing I noticed when she dismounted. Maybe it was a 30 second snipet, but I didn't see a real concern on her face. Unless I missed it, she never even looked down at his leg, but stared off *somewhere else*.

You said she was not concerned.
That would be an emotion, in this case, I think. so, you did make an assumption of how she was feeling, ina negative way. That is all I was trying to say.

Sannois
May. 9, 2007, 11:53 AM
Umm lets see that would be 33 by the poster who was keeping track.
I dont see what good all this does. I do agree that there was something amis. I just think we as eventers and horsefolk need to know what can be done to insure this is not a common occurence. I am sure Amy is in her own personal hell from all of this. She will always be under the microscope. I am not condoning her actions I am saying all this accusing and assumptions is pointless. JMHO:uhoh:

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:53 AM
No, I'm sorry. I don't believe for one minute that a 4 star rider cannot feel a horse moving like he did and not know that something is terribly wrong - not for one minute.
And I certainly hope the FEI are folks who put the horse's welfare above all else.... the facts are right before your eyes in the video in how the horse was moving. You're not going to get any more "facts" from the horse - he's gone.

nycjumper
May. 9, 2007, 11:54 AM
Oh, for Pete's sake. Look at the other post by HMDEngineer. Back in January, where she provides input about riding in 3 day events with lead weights. Sounds like she knows what she's talking about, in regards to upper level eventing.

Where is YOUR name attached to YOUR post, by the way?

I've been posting here for years & have met many people here. I'm happy to tell you my name but it wouldn't mean anything - I'm a typical ammie rider (and I don't even event). But I'm not holding myself out as any type of expert or stating I've ridden at Rolex.

My point is that yes, the video made me sick & I'm saddened by all of this. And I don't know how she didn't feel it or why she didn't pull up. But I find this mob mentality & sweeping statements about how people "know" what she was thinking, asserting she did it deliberately, she's a horrible human being, etc to be really disturbing.

Unless Amy is posting on this board, NO ONE has any idea what she was thinking or why she made the decisions she did & what the motivation was behind those decisions. I'm waiting to see what the FEI has to say & have trust that they will present the facts.

LE
May. 9, 2007, 11:56 AM
For the person who compared Amy situation with a father leaving a child in a carseat in the heat---that's comparing apples and oranges!

Ok, so you're telling me you think Amy is guilty because she rode her horse as any rider would at that level event? I'm sorry--but as I've stated before, you can be on a lame horse and NOT KNOW IT!

And no, I do NOT think she should be punished if she made an error in judgement.

If you all are telling me you are perfect horsemen/women, you are LIARS. I've made errors in judgement and I've regretting it every day. Not everyone reacts the same way. I know from my experiences XC, like Magnolia said, you don't always hear people shout---the winds through your ears whilst galloping can make that next to impossible. Perhaps the rider at Badmitton was just lucky he heard them.

Like someone said very well here, until you are in that situation, you can't be a judge. The fact that top event riders are supporting Amy tells me a lot. Because they've BEEN there.

So, for all of you who ride---do you know what a blown tendon feels like? I don't. And as one of my coaches said(who has ridden at that level), unless you know what it feels like, you won't know it.

Just because Amy didn't do anything with her horse doesn't make her horrible. She was probably tired, and confused and really not sure what to do. Not everyone reacts the same in a situation like that.

Ye who has never sined, cast the first stone(for none catholics, roughly translated---for those who have never made a mistake, you can critisize.)

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 11:59 AM
And the facts are that she committed "abuse" under the FEI guidelines - lameness and exhaustion. It doesn't really matter if she knew it or not .....

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:04 PM
Just because Amy didn't do anything with her horse doesn't make her horrible. She was probably tired, and confused and really not sure what to do. Not everyone reacts the same in a situation like that.



Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa - everyone feel sorry for Amy! Amy's having a rough time. Amy was tired. Amy was confused. Meanwhile, what about the horse?????? We have to be the voice for the horse! Who cares about Amy. That's the price you pay when you're an Olympian and you pull a maneuver like that for the whole world to see!

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 12:07 PM
And the facts are that she committed "abuse" under the FEI guidelines - lameness and exhaustion. It doesn't really matter if she knew it or not .....

Wrong. That is not fact. There has been no ruling yet as far as I know. The FEI is investigating if she has committed abuse under their guidelines. But you've already got her hung out to dry.

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 12:11 PM
Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa - everyone feel sorry for Amy! Amy's having a rough time. Amy was tired. Amy was confused. Meanwhile, what about the horse?????? We have to be the voice for the horse! Who cares about Amy. That's the price you pay when you're an Olympian and you pull a maneuver like that for the whole world to see!

You're stripes are certainly becoming clear.

Injuries, catastrophic injuries no less, happen very frequently in horse sports. The fact that the horse got hurt wasn't Amy's fault. It is events AFTER the injury that are in question.

Doodle
May. 9, 2007, 12:13 PM
Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa - everyone feel sorry for Amy! Amy's having a rough time. Amy was tired. Amy was confused. Meanwhile, what about the horse?????? We have to be the voice for the horse! Who cares about Amy. That's the price you pay when you're an Olympian and you pull a maneuver like that for the whole world to see!

YES!

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:14 PM
Wrong. That is not fact. There has been no ruling yet as far as I know. The FEI is investigating if she has committed abuse under their guidelines. But you've already got her hung out to dry.

So, who cares if I've got her hung out to dry???? I'm not the FEI! People have opinions you know. That's just how we are. My opinion is based on the welfare of the horse....

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 12:18 PM
So, who cares if I've got her hung out to dry???? I'm not the FEI! People have opinions you know.

Hey, DMK, look: Truthiness!

Firefilly
May. 9, 2007, 12:22 PM
Okay, I know everyone says the video is horrible to watch.... but where is the link to it??? I found the YouTube link, but it is no longer there. Does anyone have another link to this video, so that I can see what all the fuss is about? I can tell from all the posts on this that the video is not a nice viewing... but I would like to see for myself before making an opinion.... thanks.

farmgirl
May. 9, 2007, 12:23 PM
I also read your post re: lead weight. I wish I could ride with you.

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:27 PM
I also read your post re: lead weight. I wish I could ride with you.

Now I'm feeling very old. I'm from that era. It seems like yesterday when you had to weigh in....

Doodle
May. 9, 2007, 12:27 PM
Okay, I know everyone says the video is horrible to watch.... but where is the link to it??? I found the YouTube link, but it is no longer there. Does anyone have another link to this video, so that I can see what all the fuss is about? I can tell from all the posts on this that the video is not a nice viewing... but I would like to see for myself before making an opinion.... thanks.

I'm sure the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, made sure the video clip was removed from youtube. :no:

peaches21
May. 9, 2007, 12:28 PM
The facts aren't known to you and me, but they're known. The FEI investigation proceeds and will come out in due time. There is no reason on earth why they should rush to get things out so we on this bb as well as the general public can see what happened instantaneously. Give them time to complete their investigation. I have every confidence in the eventing community and the FEI in this case, and think it's totally uncalled for to say "the situation will continue to go in a downward spiral fast."

Good grief. This situation is NOT going in a downward spiral. Why do you say that?

I say that becuase of reading peoples responses on this blog. People already have their minds made up and most are not in the positive manner. If you do a search there is already many other blogs with negative comments. Everyone knows that word of mouth and the internet are one of the largest modes of communciation. Depending on how long the FEI takes it may to late.

subk
May. 9, 2007, 12:32 PM
I realize that people respond to tragedy differently, but I find those who grab it as pulpit on which to beat their chest using it to bring attention to themselves are the saddest of the lot.

As a student and boarder of one of the recently severely injured riders, let me assure you, I've gotten a good look at what type a person jumps into the tragedies of others for their own self interest and to grab some of the spotlight for themselves. It's so sad that so many seem to be doing it here--and at the expense of so many.

Erin
May. 9, 2007, 12:32 PM
I'm sure the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, made sure the video clip was removed from youtube. :no:

Now that's just freaking ridiculous. :rolleyes: It was removed because it was blatant copyright infringement.

As far as I know, you can still pay your 8 bucks and watch Amy's ENTIRE ride (not a fuzzy home video of a video of 30 seconds of it) from the NBC site. Surely if the powers that be were trying to keep us from seeing eventing's Zapruder film, they'd have started there?

magnolia73
May. 9, 2007, 12:33 PM
Hey PooPoo- horses die while eventing because of rider error/bad decision. She did something that people do at that level. Made a mistake/bad judgement that cost her horse. She's not the first, won't be the last.

It's hard for me to get my mind around what happened. But my assumption tired, out of it rider didn't notice. Not acceptable at this level, but not some indicator of a horrible person. she had every right to have confidence in her ability.

A lot of the emotional interpretations here - whipping, ignoring cries to stop, getting off and not providing comfort to the horse seem to be creating drama that did not exist that paints the rider as some inhumane witch when the reality is - a perhaps underprepared rider who made bad decisions.

wookiee
May. 9, 2007, 12:34 PM
I'm sure the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, made sure the video clip was removed from youtube. :no:

Actually it was removed because its posting was a copyright infringement on Hugh-Carrs productions, not some grand conspiracy to keep people from knowing what happened.

If you want to see the entire ride, go buy the video off of NBC. Not only do you get to see it in better res than the YouTube, but you also vote with your $$ that this kind of coverage makes business sense and we will most likely have it to enjoy (and debate) in the future.

Phaxxton
May. 9, 2007, 12:34 PM
Okay, I know everyone says the video is horrible to watch.... but where is the link to it??? I found the YouTube link, but it is no longer there. Does anyone have another link to this video, so that I can see what all the fuss is about? I can tell from all the posts on this that the video is not a nice viewing... but I would like to see for myself before making an opinion.... thanks.

You can download the entire thing here: http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp?utm_source=MZ_banner_4_20&utm_medium=Banner_468x60&utm_content=Banner&utm_campaign=Equestrian

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 12:37 PM
I'm sure the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, made sure the video clip was removed from youtube. :no:

peaches21: Doodle here just proved your point. {Sigh}

poopoo
May. 9, 2007, 12:39 PM
The whipping and the end of the ride are all on the NBC version for all to see. I wasn't in Kentucky, but I tend to believe the version which states people were yelling at her to stop, as that's what all the nonhorse friends of mine did when they watched it. Even a nonhorseperson could see it... All these pieces fit into the same puzzle, if you want to play detective....

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 12:45 PM
Hey PooPoo- horses die while eventing because of rider error/bad decision. She did something that people do at that level. Made a mistake/bad judgement that cost her horse. She's not the first, won't be the last.


Exactly. And it happens in all types of horse sports...not just eventing. Do we hold the facility owner who missed a gopher hole responsibile when a horse steps in it and breaks its leg? Or the rider who puts their horse to such a horrible spot that it flips or lands badly and is seriously injured? Where is the outcry in those situations? It ends just the same for the horse....

Tragedy makes people want to lay blame, but the truth is, there really isn't a place to lay blame in this case. There is a determination if a rider made a horse suffer needlessly...and that is what the FEI is looking into...but the horse was seriously hurt regardless.

Phaxxton
May. 9, 2007, 12:45 PM
I'm sure the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, made sure the video clip was removed from youtube. :no:

Yes, they WERE infinitely wise to remove information that was obviously protected by copyright. :rolleyes:

Not everything is a conspiracy theory. If people want to see it, they'll have to pay for it. (Shocking thought in a society where stealing music and media files off the internet is so accepted, I know, but them's the breaks)

They removed a crappy, blurry version on YouTube and now people have to watch not just a clip, but the ENTIRE ride in high res and excellent clarity... for a pretty nominal fee (that they have every right to charge) -- And that price also includes the rest of Rolex.

Doodle
May. 9, 2007, 12:46 PM
peaches21: Doodle hear just proved your point. {Sigh}

Yes, and as Erin so tactfully pointed out, it is copyright infringement, which can be said for many videos on youtube! No "leaders" in equestrian sport would want anything damaging to be out there anyway.

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 12:53 PM
Yes, and as Erin so tactfully pointed out, it is copyright infringement, which can be said for many videos on youtube! No "leaders" in equestrian sport would want anything damaging to be out there anyway.

Many, many videos are being pulled off of youtube daily for copyright infringement. I'm a member of a fan community (Firefly) that had some WONDERFUL promotional fan made videos on youtube, but they were taken down for infringement...even though the show has LONG ended and the Network and owners of the copyright stand to MAKE money off the videos due to new viewers. The network (FOX) also threatened a massive lawsuit to fans marketing their own designs on cafepress if it included ANY little bit of copyrighted material.

Really, the fact that the video is off of youtube has NOTHING to do with leaders in equestrian sport. If you think they have that much power...you are seriously delusional about what horse sports means in the grand scheme of things.

Pay the damn $8. Download the video, watch it over and over, show your friends, etc. But don't get all crazy-like saying "they" took the video down to cover it up.

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 12:53 PM
oh dear god in heaven, Doodle, the "eventing powers that be" didn't pull the video. The MediaZone NBC people, who are in business to make money selling the video, pulled it. And companies pull videos from YouTube all the time. Some let it slide - like commercials, it's free advertising - but when they're making money selling a video everyone wants to see, they understandably don't want a bootleg copy out there for free.

Edited to add: what RugBug said.

LLDM
May. 9, 2007, 12:57 PM
Saying what?


Exactly. And it happens in all types of horse sports...not just eventing. Do we hold the facility owner who missed a gopher hole responsibile when a horse steps in it and breaks its leg? Or the rider who puts their horse to such a horrible spot that it flips or lands badly and is seriously injured? Where is the outcry in those situations? It ends just the same for the horse....


I believe the difference (generically speaking) is between negligence and gross negligence. And, again speaking generically, the consequences are there with both under most rules and laws. The big difference, aside form the severity of the penalties, is whether are or a person responsible "should have known" the potential for an extremely bad outcome. Also, at what level the person responsible had control of the situation or the events leading up to the situation.

SCFarm

Jealoushe
May. 9, 2007, 12:58 PM
I cant help but wonder, TRULY what the opinions would be if:

the horse didnt make it over the fence, fell or crashed?
it was a no name first timer?

I know my opinion wouldn't change. The image of the horse landing after the fence and trying to stop because his leg isn't working is stuck in my head. The rider pushes and kicks on to get him across the finish. I don't care who it is its just wrong. Not saying she was out to hurt the horse, but it was terribly neglectful.

wlrottge
May. 9, 2007, 01:02 PM
And the facts are that she committed "abuse" under the FEI guidelines - lameness and exhaustion. It doesn't really matter if she knew it or not .....

Technically speaking... they were all guilty... i doubt there was a horse after that course that was not "exhausted". You ride a horse at the end of a 4* course differently then you do a HT, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL TIRED!!!

As far as her emotions upon crossing the finish line, I've said it once, but... I bet she was a weee tired herself. Not to mention, as someone else did, she was a first responder... the last thing you want to hear a fireman say is, "holy sh*t" when he sees your bloody face at the scene of an accident.

It's a similar situation with my wife and I. One of our horses was seriously hurt a couple of years ago, she was emotional (but rational) and I was stone faced and concentrating on how to improve the situation. Panicking only makes the situation worse. I've been in some life and death sailing situations and if you panic or freak out, things go down hill FAST. The best thing for her to do was stay sane and rational, there is a time and place for an emotional breakdown... the finish line was not it. I also doubt that she knew the full extent of his injuries... unless she's like me and got the onboard CT and MRI's installed in her head (lol, jk)

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 01:08 PM
oh dear god in heaven, Doodle, the "eventing powers that be" didn't pull the video. The MediaZone NBC people, who are in business to make money selling the video, pulled it. And companies pull videos from YouTube all the time. Some let it slide - like commercials, it's free advertising - but when they're making money selling a video everyone wants to see, they understandably don't want a bootleg copy out there for free.

Edited to add: what RugBug said.

I actually considered buying a video after seeing a clip of Theodore O'connor on YouTUbe for pete's sake! by the way, there are still clips of Karen and Teddy on youtube....

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 01:10 PM
The image of the horse landing after the fence and trying to stop because his leg isn't working is stuck in my head. The rider pushes and kicks on to get him across the finish.

See, IMO, LS looked BETTER after the fence than before. In fact, if I had only seen footage of after the fence, I never would believe he was so three legged before the fence. I DIDN'T see AT pushing and kicking him over the finish line. He seemed more than willing at that point to continue on. Again..this is my opinion.

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 01:12 PM
I actually considered buying a video after seeing a clip of Theodore O'connor on YouTUbe for pete's sake! by the way, there are still clips of Karen and Teddy on youtube....

#1 - are these videos footage of the Hugh-Carr broadcast or are they spectator taken video?

#2 - If the Karen/Teddy video is in fact copyrighted material and comes to the attention of the copyright owners, I have no doubt it will be taken done. But, it probably isn't getting nearly as much traffic or attention as the CLEARLY infringed LS footage.

LLDM
May. 9, 2007, 01:14 PM
Injuries, catastrophic injuries no less, happen very frequently in horse sports. The fact that the horse got hurt wasn't Amy's fault. It is events AFTER the injury that are in question.

Ummm, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The question of the nature of the initial injury and if that was compounded by the rider's actions AFTER that is certainly central. However, I would be surprised if the FEI does not consider what preceeded the injury as well. Although it may not directly effect her guilt or innocence of a violation of the specific statute - it might well effect the severity of any type of sanction. And this is where the FEI makes its, um, perspective known concerning the person responible's intent (as I have gathered from their recent rulings).

SCFarm

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 01:14 PM
I cant help but wonder, TRULY what the opinions would be if:

it was a no name first timer?


peaches21, you must be right when I find myself wanting to start all my posts with "oh dear god in heaven..." :D

However, I'll bravely carry on. The degeneration of comments by bb members is no reason for the FEI to hurry up with their investigation; in fact, it's all the more reason to be thorough. The "powers that be" know silly, uniformed ranting when they read it.

Jealoushe: are you saying that you think eventers would be harsher on a "no-name" and are giving Amy a pass? That's ridiculous.

Doodle
May. 9, 2007, 01:17 PM
oh dear god in heaven, Doodle, the "eventing powers that be" didn't pull the video. The MediaZone NBC people, who are in business to make money selling the video, pulled it. And companies pull videos from YouTube all the time. Some let it slide - like commercials, it's free advertising - but when they're making money selling a video everyone wants to see, they understandably don't want a bootleg copy out there for free.

Edited to add: what RugBug said.

I never said any leaders in equestrian sport pulled anything. I said the powers that be.
dear god in heaven!:confused:

Anne FS
May. 9, 2007, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE=InVA;2420029by the way, there are still clips of Karen and Teddy on youtube....[/QUOTE]

bootlegs from MediaZone Rolex? Bet they pull 'em if they find out. And also, bet a lot more people will shell out the $8 to buy the AT video and won't pay $8 to buy a clip of Karen and Teddy, right?

Edited [AGAIN] to add that Anne FS and RugBug are not the same person, just two minds with but a single thought....

LLDM
May. 9, 2007, 01:19 PM
Jealoushe: are you saying that you think eventers would be harsher on a "no-name" and are giving Amy a pass? That's ridiculous.

Guessing here - but I took it to mean someone without AT's very public and here-to-fore stellar track record. So, yeah, probably. It makes me wonder, more than a bit, why she would act so seemingly out of character. I think I wonder about that more than anything in this whole mess. I find it beyond odd.

SCFarm

Paks
May. 9, 2007, 01:21 PM
Technically speaking... they were all guilty... i doubt there was a horse after that course that was not "exhausted"


Actually I think exhausted refers to the state the wining horse in 1978 who finished with a temp of 108 and had to have oxygen administered and ice packs at the finish line instead of being able to wait until he got back to the barn. I don't believe the rule was put in place until after that incident.

wlrottge
May. 9, 2007, 01:21 PM
Wooo Hooo!! 1,000th post

Sorry, just had to.....

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 01:26 PM
bootlegs from MediaZone Rolex? Bet they pull 'em if they find out. And also, bet a lot more people will shell out the $8 to buy the AT video and won't pay $8 to buy a clip of Karen and Teddy, right?

Edited [AGAIN] to add that Anne FS and RugBug are not the same person, just two minds with but a single thought....

Probably it is amateur video...taken from the stands..
Actually it wouldn't occur to me to buy the video of AT and Le Samurai... why would I? I'd like to see everyone's ride..

RugBug
May. 9, 2007, 01:29 PM
Probably it is amateur video...taken from the stands..
Actually it wouldn't occur to me to buy the video of AT and Le Samurai... why would I? I'd like to see everyone's ride..

InVA, the $8 video IS everybody's ride. It's the all access pass. No one is selling just the AT/LS footage.

You didn't get to see the youtube video, did you?

The youtube footage was most likely shot by someone recording their paid-for mediazone footage. It had all the stats at the bottom of the screen that the network adds. It definitely wasn't Joe-fan sitting on the sidelines at the right spot capturing the moment.

Phaxxton
May. 9, 2007, 01:30 PM
The $8 gets you all of Rolex - EVERYONE'S rides (all 3 days)... not just the AT video.

(ETA - oops, sorry, see someone beat me to it)

InVA
May. 9, 2007, 01:35 PM
InVA, the $8 video IS everybody's ride. It's the all access pass. No one is selling just the AT/LS footage.

You didn't get to see the youtube video, did you?

The youtube footage was most likely shot by someone recording their paid-for mediazone footage. It had all the stats at the bottom of the screen that the network adds. It definitely wasn't Joe-fan sitting on the sidelines at the right spot capturing the moment.

Yes I saw it. lucky me.