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Row Wisco, Row!
May. 2, 2007, 11:38 AM
Janet, this thread is moving rapid fire and I commented about your initial ligament ?s on the previous page. Just didn't want you to miss it. Our main man Reed did a good job too! He's the engineer here.

I'd have to check the literature to see if it's already been done, but I'd hazard a guess no, and I see huge potential for a Reed-Hilary Clayton-Someone trained in Epidemiology collaboration. What do you say Reed? :winkgrin:

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 11:47 AM
Janet, this thread is moving rapid fire and I commented about your initial ligament ?s on the previous page. Just didn't want you to miss it. Our main man Reed did a good job too! He's the engineer here.
Yes. I did see it. It slipped in between Reed's post and my reply.

I am still curious about the differences between a tear in a single ligament (something many of us have dealt with at some time or other) a "loss " of "all the ligaments" which is how this injury was described.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 11:50 AM
And here is another thing that will smoke your brains. A friend of mine (a known eventing official) in her Master's Thesis, describes how HEAT build up in tissues from exercise will denature the proteins in ligaments and tendons setting up tissue failure. Protective tack such as Porter Wraps, leather galloping boots can CONTRIBUTE to ligament and tendon failure over extended athletic efforts because they hold the heat in the leg. This is also why icing immediately after XC is good. I DID know about the "retaining heat" effect, and not leaving the boots on. But I was under the impression that it was better to wait about half an hour before icing the leg. But maybe that was just because it may be about half and hour before the horse is cooled out enough to be ready to stand still for the icing.

Gnep
May. 2, 2007, 11:52 AM
Reed,

muscles can get brittle because the body has used up what ever prevents them from geting brittle and tear, do we have the same problem with tendons ligaments when horse or people or what ever runs to long in the anerobe state ?

RAyers
May. 2, 2007, 12:02 PM
Yes. I did see it. It slipped in between Reed's post and my reply.

I am still curious about the differences between a tear in a single ligament (something many of us have dealt with at some time or other) a "loss " of "all the ligaments" which is how this injury was described.

My suspicion is the local anatomy (geometry for the engineers) will come in to play here. Only a few folks know what really failed. It could be a cascade of failures.

Gnep,

The muscles need oxygen (aerobic) but tendons and ligaments do not function in the same manner. Tendons have very few cells and act more like steel cables. So their failure is more due to energy (heat) build up denaturing the proteins. It just happens to be when athletes enter the anaerobic state but is not really due to the anaerobic state (at least according to the most recent research with which I am familiar). Wisco may be able to provide a better answer.

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 12:06 PM
I sincerely hope they are NOT doing that.

I hope they are being careful, rational, calm, and deliberate, gathering and considering all the information ("evidence") available.

And I hope they are trying very, very, hard to be fair and unbiased. It is not their job to "salvage something positive". If they put THAT above being fair, I would be VERY disappointed.

Oh for crying out loud! There are so many useful, productive, informative things that could be addressed without damaging any individual or being "unfair". They could be framing the debate and discussing the working being done in general. They could be talking about all the rules that are in place already to protect horses (and riders for that matter).

Why are people assuming that the information people are asking for is some sensational tabloid drival? Crimany that is SO not the point!

SCFarm

Gnep
May. 2, 2007, 12:16 PM
Reed,
can we peel this out of the shouting and screaming contest and open a new thread. This is very interesting and I have a ton of questions.

Trakehner
May. 2, 2007, 12:18 PM
Here's the Horse and Hound website forum on the FEI and Amy Tryon and her behaviour...it's an eye-opener and worth a look:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=hholatest&page=0

The Horse & Hound Poll for people's opinions on the Amy Tyrone incident:

Should she have pulled up immediately? (252 total votes)

Yes, absolutely! (242 votes) 96%

I dont know, maybe (9 votes) 4%

No, she knows her horse and I support her decision (1 vote) 00%


Do you think she knew the horse was extremely lame when she chose to carry on? (252 total votes)

Yes, it was blatantly obvious (198 VOTES) 79%

Dont know. I think she knew it was lame but didnt think it was as bad / thought it would come right after a few strides. (51 votes) 20%

No, she wouldnt have carried on otherwise. (3 votes) 01%

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 12:44 PM
Its pretty accurate census of how people in the uk (and some international members) are feeling towards this incident

IQ3day14
May. 2, 2007, 12:45 PM
The topic of Amy and Le Samurai is really getting old. Clearly she is hurting. I have yet to ever meet an eventer who means to hurt their horse just to finish. The reality of it is, none of us were in the irons, no one felt what she felt, know one will ever feel exactly what she is feeling now. We can all speculate, but we are all human. Everyone makes a mistake. That is what gives us the ability to learn. If anyone has ever not made a mistake please speak up. I know you all may think her mistake is worse than others, but that horse jumped the last fence for her. SOO, clearly they had a bond, because I don't know what horse would have done that. It takes a special person to bond with a horse in that way. Clearly Amy was that special person. Please lay off of her.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 12:50 PM
there is a whole post for people wanting to support here, your efforts would be much appreciated there. The 'special' bond you talk about was broken when she abused his trust in her. He was a very honest and brave lad and she abused her position, unlike him who still put his body on the line even after the pain. I wish Sparky all the best i really do, but dont feel that amy should be in a position of trust like that again.

Trakehner
May. 2, 2007, 12:52 PM
The topic of Amy and Le Samurai is really getting old. Clearly she is hurting. ...they had a bond...It takes a special person to bond with a horse in that way. Clearly Amy was that special person. Please lay off of her.

She's hurting...well, that's certainly good enough for me. What a special bond, that she rode a lame horse over a jump, even changing leads to favor the healthier leg. Yes, that is special.

Don't be judgemental, never/never/never.

Wonder if the "be kind, they're suffering" would be as loud if it was their horse jumped while crippled?

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 12:56 PM
Sparky updates: http://www.teamtryon.com/

SCFarm

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 12:59 PM
Sparky updates: http://www.teamtryon.com/

SCFarm
I don't see any updates since April 30.

JAGold
May. 2, 2007, 01:00 PM
The 'special' bond you talk about was broken when she abused his trust in her. (snip) I wish Sparky all the best i really do, but dont feel that amy should be in a position of trust like that again.
What are you saying? That you don't think she should ever ride again? --Jess

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 01:08 PM
she shouldnt be riding at 4* level if she cant not make safe judgment calls that would protect her or her horses she is riding.. She isnt someone to look upto, she certainly isnt world class after her actions, and the statement that she gave was a false account of what happened and instead of admitting fault,like an honest sportsmen she and MP have come up with the biggest BS story. If she atleast could of been honest and admitted the mistake i would of had some respect for her left. for all the good she has done for our sport and for all she has achieved has been un done by the whole incident from injury to press release.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 01:14 PM
Erm, flintus, unless I've missed something, she hasn't said anything about what happened, except that she felt horrible about it. She hasn't given her side yet at all, so I'm a bit confused as to how you can state she's given a "false" account... she hasn't given ANY account.

And I think you'd not have any four-star riders at all if they were all DQ'ed for having made a bad judgment call at some point. They all miss, get bad distances, cut a turn too sharp, etc. Any of those mistakes can lead to a bad crash where horse or rider gets hurt.

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 01:18 PM
I don't see any updates since April 30.

Yes, but there wasn't anything posted on there yesterday.

SCFarm

AlwaysHopeful
May. 2, 2007, 01:18 PM
Here's the Horse and Hound website forum on the FEI and Amy Tryon and her behaviour...it's an eye-opener and worth a look:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=hholatest&page=0

The Horse & Hound Poll for people's opinions on the Amy Tyrone incident:

Should she have pulled up immediately? (252 total votes)

Yes, absolutely! (242 votes) 96%

I dont know, maybe (9 votes) 4%

No, she knows her horse and I support her decision (1 vote) 00%


Do you think she knew the horse was extremely lame when she chose to carry on? (252 total votes)

Yes, it was blatantly obvious (198 VOTES) 79%

Dont know. I think she knew it was lame but didnt think it was as bad / thought it would come right after a few strides. (51 votes) 20%

No, she wouldnt have carried on otherwise. (3 votes) 01%

H&H people are also saying "Amy Tryon is the devil, and should be hung drawn and quartered etc!!!!" I don't agree with that either.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 01:21 PM
Erm, flintus, unless I've missed something, she hasn't said anything about what happened, except that she felt horrible about it. She hasn't given her side yet at all, so I'm a bit confused as to how you can state she's given a "false" account... she hasn't given ANY account.

And I think you'd not have any four-star riders at all if they were all DQ'ed for having made a bad judgment call at some point. They all miss, get bad distances, cut a turn too sharp, etc. Any of those mistakes can lead to a bad crash where horse or rider gets hurt.

MP and her husband made the BS statment, when amy talked about she said i wish none of thios had happened etc, special bond etc, but not ONCE was there im really sorry that this has happened. i would give anything for this not to have happened i believe...why...because you may lose your chance to compete, be banned or be fined. It reeks selfsishness from injury to press release. i know people make mistakes but how many incidents like amy's have you seen? theres one thing crashing, theres one thing taking a wrong course, but kicking on a lame horse to finish the course isnt excusable, even you would agree with that!

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 01:32 PM
I haven't seen the MP statement, but Amy's statement on her website (which has been quoted on this thread before) reads: "I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the injury he sustained yesterday but cannot comment pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me and we share a deep bond that is beyond just competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, he will always be my partner."

If you want to think it's BS, ok, but I don't see how you can claim it's "false" when she didn't make any statements of fact.

I don't, and I don't think many here, are "excusing" what happened. It certainly appears to be a very very bad judgment call, and I expect Amy is and will continue to suffer the consequences of it. (As she should.) But it was a judgment call that happened in the span of 30 seconds out on a XC course in the heat of competition. It's not like, say, arranging for your horse to be murdered so you can collect the insurance money. It's not like she took a horse out back behind the barn and beat it with a crowbar.

Everyone makes errors in judgment when under pressure and in the heat of competition. That's why good competitors are good -- because they're able to make good decisions more often.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 01:37 PM
MP read a statement and said amy said sparky etc

JAGold
May. 2, 2007, 01:41 PM
flintus, do you want to ban anyone who has ever caused a car accident from driving again?

Amy hasn't explained her decision to the public yet. Until she does, I don't see how you can judge her explanation, even if you feel you have sufficient information to judge her action. --Jess

vineyridge
May. 2, 2007, 01:43 PM
Another thought for the thinking hopper.

Le Samurai is a Holsteiner/TB cross. I just looked up his pedigree, and he has no TB blood in the sire line for the first three generations. Doesn't look like there is much in the 4th. AT is used to riding TBs, not that that makes a difference. What might make a difference is in failure of the supporting ligaments after an endurance test. TBs just might hold up better, and if all you've ever ridden at that high level is TB, you might just not think in terms of catastrophic injury.

Maybe, just maybe, an top level eventer NEEDS all that TB blood (3/4 or more) to be safe. Speaking here as a TB fan, so maybe my perceptions are biased.

ravenclaw
May. 2, 2007, 01:49 PM
What I keep coming back to is this: If the horse had gone lame with one jump to go in stadium and Amy had kept going, it would have been more questionable.

But it happened on cross-country, when there is a vet inspection the next day before they can go to stadium. There is no way a lame horse would pass the vet inspection and be allowed to compete on the 3rd day. So there was nothing for Amy to gain by finishing cross-country on an injured horse. I have heard she also had big plans for this horse beyond Rolex, so I'm sure she wouldn't knowingly do anything that would jeopordize his soundness.

I believe what Mark Phillips said in the statement...that Amy didn't realize how bad the situation was. I saw the video clip. Sparky looked bad for several strides, but when he started cantering again and switched leads he did look better. He only looked really bad again after the finish line when he slowed down to a trot. I don't agree with the posters who have said Amy kept urging him on. It looked to me like she took her legs off and he was just coasting to the last jump, over it, and to the finish line.

It was a tragic mistake, nothing more. It is ridiculous for people to be saying that horses would be "safer" if Amy never rode again. We have all made bad choices with our horses, in our riding, and in other parts of our lives. We all have to live with the choices we make and the consequences. The important thing is that we learn from the choices we make. It's what makes us grow and become better people. Amy should be allowed this opportunity, same as the rest of us.

eventerwannabe
May. 2, 2007, 01:53 PM
MP read a statement and said amy said sparky etc

Wow...sounds official to me. I'd surely make a judgment call based on that.:no:

LisaB
May. 2, 2007, 01:57 PM
I'm curious and maybe this should start another thread but Reed and Wisco, so you're saying that heat can be a contribution?
I've been hearing this more and more. And that some people are schooling and riding and conditioning without wraps. They use them only if the horse is a goofball.
Basically, how to condition your horse, condition the muscles, tendons, and ligaments?
We tore a minor check ligament and I'm still scratching my head on HOW because I would kinda like to avoid it in the future. Vet says it was blunt trauma. I'm thinking a nice ankle twist.
Anyway, your explanations kinda prove what was happening. From accounts, the horse was not stepping up to the jumps near the end. She went to the crop and pressed him on (as others who had not so good runs) and then boom! that trip and on 3 legs.
So beyond conformation, from all the technology learned in sports med, how do we prevent this?

Ja Da Dee
May. 2, 2007, 01:59 PM
Another thought for the thinking hopper.

Le Samurai is a Holsteiner/TB cross. I just looked up his pedigree, and he has no TB blood in the sire line for the first three generations. Doesn't look like there is much in the 4th. AT is used to riding TBs, not that that makes a difference. What might make a difference is in failure of the supporting ligaments after an endurance test. TBs just might hold up better, and if all you've ever ridden at that high level is TB, you might just not think in terms of catastrophic injury.

Maybe, just maybe, an top level eventer NEEDS all that TB blood (3/4 or more) to be safe. Speaking here as a TB fan, so maybe my perceptions are biased.


Interesting perspective. Since this is a newish relationship, maybe she wasn't as tuned into what he felt like when he got tired either (warmblood coolness - v- TB hottness), so pushed him on that last 100 meters instead of pulling up.

KellyS
May. 2, 2007, 02:00 PM
This is MP's statement (from the other thread):

"Amy said she felt the horse take a bad step at the top of the hill. Then he started to get a bit better and then he locked onto the fence in front of him. At that time, when you're traveling at 25 mph, it happens in a matter of seconds. She felt it was safer to try to jump the fence than to try and pull up."

"If you have got an injury, it takes time to pull up so you don't make the situation worse. When Barbaro had his injury, he went a long way before he was pulled up. Secondly, she didn't know at the time what the injury was -- or if it was an injury. In that moment, you don't know whether a bandage or boot has slipped. You don't have the advantage of a video. All you know is what you're feeling in your hands and with the horse underneath you.

"Amy is one of the most sympathetic of all riders and her horses come first of everything in her life. She would never knowingly do something cruel or unkind or harmful to any of her horses. I feel very sorry for her, because if this had happened three fences earlier, it's in her words, a 'no brainer.' If it happens at the finish, you don't have the luxury of going for a bit to see how and when you can pull up."

Mark recalled that when he was riding Columbus at Burghley in 1974, the horse slipped a tendon off his hock at the next-to-last fence, and he went on to jump the last.

"A lot of riders have been in that position," he pointed out.

"In a moment of uncertainty so close to the finish, most riders would do what Amy did. They don't have the advantage of hindsight and video."

Emphasis added by me. I think a lot of us have problems with the portions about "locking" on to the fence and that it was "safer to jump" than to pull up. I think most of us who watched the video realize that the horse was ready to pull up before they even made the turn to the last fence and that both Amy's and Le Samurai's safety were put in jeopardy by jumping that fence.

JAGold
May. 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
Kelly, I agree that parts of the Captain's statement are troubling. But the statement is his spin on things, not necessarily her explanation. Especially the last bit about what most riders would do -- that's MP's take on things. It might even be what he asks of his riders, which would be troubling. But it is not, so far, Amy's claim. --Jess

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 02:19 PM
Yes, but there wasn't anything posted on there yesterday.

SCFarm
I saw the April 30 statement there yesterday. Don't remember what time though.

KellyS
May. 2, 2007, 02:29 PM
Kelly, I agree that parts of the Captain's statement are troubling. But the statement is his spin on things, not necessarily her explanation. Especially the last bit about what most riders would do -- that's MP's take on things. It might even be what he asks of his riders, which would be troubling. But it is not, so far, Amy's claim. --Jess

Jess--I agree with you. I am merely saying that with the very little bit of information put forth so far, statements like these (and the one from Amy's husband) are not helping the situation.

It is very troubling. I just finished reading the H&H forums and the threads here are quite tame compared to what I read there. This is an incident that is getting international attention and people are very concerned for the horse and the sport in whole.

I will say that no matter how anyone feels, that if this incident allows just one person in the future to make the right decision in regards to how they deal with a possibly injured horse in competition, then some good has come of it.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 02:33 PM
Thanks for posting that, Kelly, I had missed it on the other thread.

And yep, I would concur with "troubling."

grzywinskia
May. 2, 2007, 02:49 PM
Quite frankly, I am dismayed that in a sport where riders usually band together in bad times, you guys are name-calling, and being downright hateful. First, to whomever said that Mark Phillips statement was B.S., this guy has been in Amy's shoes therefore has the right to comment and really ya'll he's like the Simon Cowell of eventing and I am not sure if he's capable of BS. He is one of (if not THE) most respected horsemen on the planet and he'd be the first to call Amy out if he needed to, but alas...
What about those riders in the past who got a crap distance to a max combination and caused their horse to flip and die... what do you say about them "oh poor so-and-so" which is the right thing to do, Amy should be in our thoughts and prayers right now.
She is a class-act and lord knows she's punished herself for a terrible accident. Which is what it was an ACCIDENT... She doesn't deserve this bashing.

Paks
May. 2, 2007, 02:52 PM
Jess--I agree with you. I am merely saying that with the very little bit of information put forth so far, statements like these (and the one from Amy's husband) are not helping the situation.

It is very troubling. I just finished reading the H&H forums and the threads here are quite tame compared to what I read there. This is an incident that is getting international attention and people are very concerned for the horse and the sport in whole.

I will say that no matter how anyone feels, that if this incident allows just one person in the future to make the right decision in regards to how they deal with a possibly injured horse in competition, then some good has come of it.

Actually it's not surprising it is in an uproar over there Europeans take animal cruelty very seriously. My sister was in Germany when a well know trainer got caught polling a horse at his farm. I was nation news there. Here, well it's not even illegal but if it was at best it would be only in the local paper buried in the middle.

I see your last phrase paraphrases one of my post over there. I really do feel that is one good thing that can come up of this. If a rider has to put into the equiation of whether or not to kick on an injuried horse the prospect of being banned for 10 years or more. A few more might just decide to choose in the horses favor over the win.

Though it wouldn't necessarily mean they would be out of the training business, as we all know from the insurance scandals.

Speedy
May. 2, 2007, 02:53 PM
I'm curious and maybe this should start another thread but Reed and Wisco, so you're saying that heat can be a contribution?
I've been hearing this more and more. And that some people are schooling and riding and conditioning without wraps. They use them only if the horse is a goofball.
Basically, how to condition your horse, condition the muscles, tendons, and ligaments?


I am sure you already know this, but alot of folks do sets on hard ground if the joints are sound in order to strenghten the soft tissue. We do this at my barn - not with a huge amount of intensity or speed, but we do long walks and some trotting on the roads with some frequency.

Also, there have been some studies regarding the use of boots made of neoprene and other materials that seem to retain heat. So, we often do not use boots unless there is demonstrated interference until about Prelim. Well, I usually do in competition on cross county, because my personal paranoia about knocks on solid objects is more severe than my paranoia about the possibility of soft tissue injury since the studies aren't conclusive, but I think I am in the minority.

KellyS
May. 2, 2007, 03:34 PM
Actually it's not surprising it is in an uproar over there Europeans take animal cruelty very seriously. My sister was in Germany when a well know trainer got caught polling a horse at his farm. I was nation news there. Here, well it's not even illegal but if it was at best it would be only in the local paper buried in the middle.

I see your last phrase paraphrases one of my post over there. I really do feel that is one good thing that can come up of this. If a rider has to put into the equiation of whether or not to kick on an injuried horse the prospect of being banned for 10 years or more. A few more might just decide to choose in the horses favor over the win.

Though it wouldn't necessarily mean they would be out of the training business, as we all know from the insurance scandals.

Hi CM--

We were both definitely thinking along the same lines because while I did read many of the posts on the H&H forum, I hadn't seen the one you mentioned I paraphrased.

The most important aspect of this case is ensuring the welfare of the horses in the sport--since they cannot speak for themselves, we all must serve as advocates. The high emotions expressed in this thread are for the most part stimulated by viewing an animal suffering. Whether Amy realized the extent of the injury when she made the choices she did is only known by her, but no one can deny that the horse was in pain when he jumped that last fence and crossed the finish line.

Gry2Yng
May. 2, 2007, 03:37 PM
to whomever said that Mark Phillips statement was B.S., this guy has been in Amy's shoes therefore has the right to comment and really ya'll he's like the Simon Cowell of eventing and I am not sure if he's capable of BS. He is one of (if not THE) most respected horsemen on the planet and he'd be the first to call Amy out if he needed to, but alas...



My personal opinion of CMP aside, he is HARDLY one of the most respected horsemen on the planet. You are a bit out of touch.

Lisamarie8
May. 2, 2007, 03:45 PM
First, to whomever said that Mark Phillips statement was B.S., this guy has been in Amy's shoes therefore has the right to comment and really ya'll he's like the Simon Cowell of eventing and I am not sure if he's capable of BS. He is one of (if not THE) most respected horsemen on the planet and he'd be the first to call Amy out if he needed to, but alas...

Add me to the people, that after reading this statement, made this face :uhoh:

buschkn
May. 2, 2007, 03:46 PM
First, to whomever said that Mark Phillips statement was B.S., this guy has been in Amy's shoes therefore has the right to comment and really ya'll he's like the Simon Cowell of eventing and I am not sure if he's capable of BS. He is one of (if not THE) most respected horsemen on the planet and he'd be the first to call Amy out if he needed to, but alas...

Not sure whose opinion it is that MP is the most respected horseman on the planet and incapable of BS, but it isn't mine.

pegasusmom
May. 2, 2007, 03:51 PM
Not sure whose opinion it is that MP is the most respected horseman on the planet and incapable of BS, but it isn't mine.

The longer you stay in this the more you realize lots of folks at the top have feet of clay.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 03:51 PM
He is hardly one of the "most respected" horseman.

"Mark recalled that when he was riding Columbus at Burghley in 1974, the horse slipped a tendon off his hock at the next-to-last fence, and he went on to jump the last."

This certainly doesn't add to his stature as a HORSEMAN.

"I did it, so it is OK for Amy to do it" doesn't enhance EITHER of them.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 2, 2007, 03:55 PM
He is hardly one of the "most respected" horseman.

"Mark recalled that when he was riding Columbus at Burghley in 1974, the horse slipped a tendon off his hock at the next-to-last fence, and he went on to jump the last."

This certainly doesn't add to his stature as a HORSEMAN.

"I did it, so it is OK for Amy to do it" doesn't enhance EITHER of them.

Yea, I would've rather seen him not comment on it.

Lora
May. 2, 2007, 05:36 PM
Can't watch the video anymore on you tube - anyone have it?

Dow Jones
May. 2, 2007, 06:09 PM
I think sharing the video would be violating NBC's copyright...why don't you pay the $8 and download it?

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 06:35 PM
i said it was MP who made the BS statement and to be honest the only thing good to come from that man is Zara! we dont call him foggy here for nothing- he's wet and thick!! the excuse he set for amy was pathetic and has made her look worse beacuse WE have all seen the video! her husband made several excuses none that could be seen on the video and amy...WHERES THE APLOGY TO SPARKY!!! how can you support this woman who has such shallow values

i am part of the never see amy compete in UK again clique!! and not even the FEI will change my stance!!!

RugBug
May. 2, 2007, 06:45 PM
how can you support this woman who has such shallow values

i am part of the never see amy compete in UK again clique!! and not even the FEI will change my stance!!!

You know she has shallow values? It must be nice to be omniscient. Is it easy living in your black and white world?

Paks
May. 2, 2007, 06:50 PM
I think sharing the video would be violating NBC's copyright...why don't you pay the $8 and download it?

Because since I live in the country (funny how that is often true of horse people) my "High speed" link is a satellite and if I down load more than 384MB in 3 hours I get fapped which means my access speed gets dropped to 12Kbps. No way to download.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 06:53 PM
yes MY black and white world has not and will not EVER put my horse in danger, of life. Shallow? the menial response she gave was a pathetic indication that she had been advised to say something, either that or the words i am sorry do not enter this trumped up womans head! cant help but i feel if this was a uk rider you would be up in arms! I am part of the i do npot want to see her compete in the uk. i dont want to see a woman who not only put her own life at risk for glory, but the horse she was riding. as said before the FEI report may say one thing but it wont change the mindof thousands of people who witnessed her sad behaviour.

linquest
May. 2, 2007, 06:57 PM
how can you support this woman who has such shallow values

i am part of the never see amy compete in UK again clique!! and not even the FEI will change my stance!!!

And you're ready to ban a woman from ever competing in an entire country over one incident that took place over less than forty seconds? If the people of this BB were as shallow as you seem to be, you'd be banned from this board for your 20+ posts bashing multiple people ;)

eventerwannabe
May. 2, 2007, 07:03 PM
Quote:
i dont want to see a woman who not only put her own life at risk for glory, but the horse she was riding.

How is she riding for glory...she as well as everyone else knows that she wouldn't have passed the vet check. This doesn't make sense to me.

RugBug
May. 2, 2007, 07:07 PM
i dont want to see a woman who not only put her own life at risk for glory, but the horse she was riding. as said before the FEI report may say one thing but it wont change the mindof thousands of people who witnessed her sad behaviour.

Take a walk on the side of logic with me for a moment (because what you're saying just ISN'T logical....)

Let's try to find this glory of which you speak:

Option #1: She thought is was a minor injury, that horse just stung itself and would be fine to complete XC, would pass the vet and be fine for stadium. Possibility of Glory galore.

Option #2: She thought it could be a serious injury, but not one that would cause her to get pulled at the vetting, so she continues only to get spun at the vet. No Glory there

Option #3: She thought it was a serious injury, didn't care that the horse was in pain and completed the course because she's selfish and has shallow values. Absolutely no glory there, but a whole lot of ridicule as well as official governing body sanctions.

Option #4: She knew it was a serious injury, but decided to jump the last jump knowingly risking both her and her horse's lives. No glory. sanctions, ridicule and the universal knowledge that she is a complete fool because she knowingly risked her life.

Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation is USUALLY the correct one. Which is the simplest to you?

Sannois
May. 2, 2007, 07:09 PM
yes MY black and white world has not and will not EVER put my horse in danger, of life. Shallow? the menial response she gave was a pathetic indication that she had been advised to say something, either that or the words i am sorry do not enter this trumped up womans head! cant help but i feel if this was a uk rider you would be up in arms! I am part of the i do npot want to see her compete in the uk. i dont want to see a woman who not only put her own life at risk for glory, but the horse she was riding. as said before the FEI report may say one thing but it wont change the mindof thousands of people who witnessed her sad behaviour.

Why are you still at it? And I would be careful with your statements, Like the one saying "a woman who not only put her own life at risk for glory but the horse she was riding". Thats a BIG accusation, and could be construed as Slander. IT is nothing more than your opinion. Why must you continue this rant? :confused: :no:

Paks
May. 2, 2007, 07:21 PM
And you're ready to ban a woman from ever competing in an entire country over one incident that took place over less than forty seconds? If the people of this BB were as shallow as you seem to be, you'd be banned from this board for your 20+ posts bashing multiple people ;)

Actually if the FEI is involved the correct phrase would be an entire planet not country.

fourhorses
May. 2, 2007, 07:24 PM
Perhaps it is time to lock this one down.

Seriously, some of you (and I refuse to say, nor single out a "faction") are getting out of line imho.

Definitely found the posts about sports injuries interesting.

This whole thing is starting to smack of rampant emotionalism at humanity's worst (have witnessed the youtube and HH comments as well as here).

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 07:29 PM
it was i am afraid!
i am leaving this community, that was not a personal attack...that was a horrific attack on a whole community. very very disguting!

i will send a mesage to admin of who it was

i wil be on horse and hound online

to have apoint of view is one thing, to be so sickening and revolting is not my style. one world
goodbye

One Star
May. 2, 2007, 07:31 PM
I don't see how they can not show it -- she was leading after dressage and was clean up til that point on the course. (Well, after that point, even...) Plus, it's not NBC's job to sanitize what happened to "protect" eventing.

Well, consider this: after Floyd Landis won the Tour de France in 2006, OLN (now Versus) had plans to run the recap special of all of the TDF highlights the following Sunday. That Tuesday before, when the skewed Testosterone results came back on his urine sample and cast a shadow on his win, OLN rescheduled their programming and chose not to show the highlight program at all...

Of course this is slightly different because Clayton won, not Amy, and she was DQ'd before the event finished, but you see how networks think when controversy taints their programming.

eventerwannabe
May. 2, 2007, 07:32 PM
Flintus - no one has the right to make comments like the ones you received, but I also believe alot of people are making very slanderous remarks based on a video.Amy said she is not able to make any remarks due to the FEI investigation so I don't believe we will hear her side of the story until the investigation is over. I am one that wants ALL of the facts before passing judgement on something this important. It is unfair for someone to judge you based on a few remarks, but I think the same holds true for Amy.

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 07:32 PM
Take a walk on the side of logic with me for a moment (because what you're saying just ISN'T logical....)


This whole issue never met a bit of logic. I doubt seriously logic entered into it - there wasn't time for contemplation. So trying to figure it out logically is futile. Split second decisions come from a rider's gut - you have to know that RugBug. I am sure you've made your share, as have I.

They are made by experience and training and usually, we only have time to the first thing that comes to mind. No one will ever know what the first thing that came into AT's mind was but her. I just really don't like the consequences of it.

SCFarm

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 07:35 PM
For the love of all things holy, WHY would you REPOST foul-mouthed hate mail? First of all, this is a PG board and that language is totally inappropriate here, and no I don't care if it wasn't *you* saying it. And secondly, it has absolutely nothing to do with *this* discussion.

Sheesh.

linquest
May. 2, 2007, 07:38 PM
Actually if the FEI is involved the correct phrase would be an entire planet not country.

I know... I was referring to Flintus' personal opinion that Amy ought never be allowed to compete in his home country (UK).

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 07:40 PM
Well, our orgs speak at last:

From http://www.usef.org/content/newsDisplay/viewPR.php?id=2051



For Immediate Release May 2, 2007
Statement from the USEF on the Injury to Le Samurai at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event

(Lexington, KY) – The injury to Le Samurai, ridden by Amy Tryon, sustained at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event on April 28th is under review by the FEI. They will obtain a statement from the Ground Jury at the competition and from the Appeal Committee, and conduct a hearing which will include a review of the tape of the incident. A judgment will then be made in the case. The USEF will honor that decision, abide by it and enforce it. A schedule for this hearing and judgment has not yet been set.

Amy Tryon is devastated by this tragic injury to her partner. She has been an outstanding representative of the United States, both on and off the field, winning medals in many international competitions including the Olympic Games and The FEI World Equestrian Games. Amy is respected worldwide as a kind and generous horse woman who gives back to the sport, and an athlete of great character and principle. The USEF is prepared to guide her through the hearing process.

Le Samurai continues to rest comfortably at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute in Lexington, Kentucky. Inquiries regarding his condition should be referred to jmorris@usef.org.


And then there is this from: http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=rk3de&id=900




United States Eventing Association Statement Concerning Le Samurai

Updated: May 2, 2007

Many of our members have voiced their sympathy and concern for the event horse Le Samurai, who was injured at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event on Saturday. The United States Eventing Association shares that concern, and shares with its members a deep commitment to the welfare of the horse as the matter of paramount importance in our sport.

The USEA currently has no information regarding Le Samurai's condition other than what has previously been made public. See the links below. When additional information regarding Le Samurai's condition is released, it will be posted on the USEA website.

As a result of the incident, Le Samurai's rider Amy Tryon was disqualified by the ground jury. The USEA understands that this matter has been referred to the FEI for review. The USEA will post additional information regarding the status of the FEI review as it is made public.

Amy Tryon has expressed her devastation at Le Samurai's injury. Ms. Tryon has been a USEA member since 1981 and has represented the United States with distinction in four international championships. For many years, Ms. Tryon has balanced a full-time career as a firefighter and paramedic with her international eventing career.
FEI Statement (http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/FEI%20Statement%20Le%20Samurai.pdf)
USEF Statement (http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/USEF%20Statement%20Le%20Samurai.pdf)
Statement from Dr. Catherine Kohn, FEI Veterinary Delegate at Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event (http://www.teamtryon.com/)

Amy Tryon's Statement (http://www.teamtryon.com/)





Make of it what you will.

SCFarm

RugBug
May. 2, 2007, 07:41 PM
This whole issue never met a bit of logic. I doubt seriously logic entered into it - there wasn't time for contemplation. So trying to figure it out logically is futile. Split second decisions come from a rider's gut - you have to know that RugBug. I am sure you've made your share, as have I.

They are made by experience and training and usually, we only have time to the first thing that comes to mind. No one will ever know what the first thing that came into AT's mind was but her. I just really don't like the consequences of it.

SCFarm

Um, I'm not talking about Amy. I'm saying WE should be using logic while evaluating this situation.

Amy made a quick decision and certainly some of the consequences flowed through her head. (I've been there...this weekend in fact. Horse landed oddly off a jump, cross-cantered, switched back to the lead and the moved on. I had about 15 strides to decided if I should take the next jump. He felt fine and even within 4 strides so I continued. Within those few strides I went through "what will happen if he is really hurt and I take the next fence?)

One Star
May. 2, 2007, 07:51 PM
What are you saying? That you don't think she should ever ride again? --Jess

There are folks on the Horse & Hound UK forum that feel she should be reported to the ILPH and the ASPCA and never allowed to keep or ride horses again. That is how strongly some people have reacted to this incident in other parts of the world. :eek:

event1
May. 2, 2007, 07:51 PM
I was one of the people who posted @300 posts ago that said Mark Phillips, Amy, and her husbands account of what happened was BS and they would be insulting our intelligence if we actually believed it-and where is the responsibility????-FOR GODS SAKE-the WHOLE REASON THE HORSE WAS EVEN COMPETING THERE THAT DAY WAS BECAUSE OF HER AND HIS WELL BEING WAS HER RESPONSIBILITY!!!! AS far as Mark PHillips being one of the "most respected" horseman around-that comment must come from the president of the Helen Keller fan club because after his Mark's BS statement-he must repect people that are BLIND, DEAF AND DUMB-because that is what you would have to be to believe it. I for one-am NOT a fan.....:mad:

Again-Prayers for Le Samurai......

Dow Jones
May. 2, 2007, 07:54 PM
Because since I live in the country (funny how that is often true of horse people) my "High speed" link is a satellite and if I down load more than 384MB in 3 hours I get fapped which means my access speed gets dropped to 12Kbps. No way to download.

Um, sorry about your computer issues, but that doesn't make it right for you to steal the video.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 07:59 PM
For the love of all things holy, WHY would you REPOST foul-mouthed hate mail? First of all, this is a PG board and that language is totally inappropriate here, and no I don't care if it wasn't *you* saying it. And secondly, it has absolutely nothing to do with *this* discussion.

Sheesh.

Let me expalin Erin...That language is NOT approiate ANYWHERE. so may i suggest that you take a lead from other forums and stop abuse like that! you may feel free to SSSSHHHH!! behind your PC... and even your toilet breaks should not allow for such sickening attitudes towards people continue. would you like the name? So ERIN,your not too noble yorself and as an administror you need to be OUT the situation to give a fair point to other peoples opinions and views. SO ERIN when your abused so badly PLEASE send me a message and i will TOO send you one backsaying this is a PG forum and dont trouble me!!!! this is the type of non action that has confirmed if your are not n a clique to hell with it!! what a sad little person you are! READ THAT AND TELL\ME GOD HATES ME!!!!\SORRY YOU CANT YOUR TOO INPARTIAL! what a very biased upsetting forum you dare to adminstrate

Dow Jones
May. 2, 2007, 08:01 PM
Sweet fancy moses, Flintus, you need to get a grip.

One Star
May. 2, 2007, 08:02 PM
I think sharing the video would be violating NBC's copyright...why don't you pay the $8 and download it?

The downloaded video from the webcast is copyright protected and cannot be copied, edited, or uploaded for public viewing.

I agree; pony up the eight bucks like the rest of us did to watch the wall to wall coverage of every ride, not just the contentious one.

One Star
May. 2, 2007, 08:05 PM
Because since I live in the country (funny how that is often true of horse people) my "High speed" link is a satellite and if I down load more than 384MB in 3 hours I get fapped which means my access speed gets dropped to 12Kbps. No way to download.

Carr-Hughes Media is selling the unedited raw footage that we watched on the NBC webcast, available for purchase on a DVD

Go here to check it out: http://www.carr-hughes.com/videos/index.cfm

Gry2Yng
May. 2, 2007, 08:09 PM
In a moment of uncertainty, we all have the option to err on the side of caution. I think that is the reason so many are so gravely offended by what happened.

TB or not TB?
May. 2, 2007, 08:12 PM
There are folks on the Horse & Hound UK forum that feel she should be reported to the ILPH and the ASPCA and never allowed to keep or ride horses again. That is how strongly some people have reacted to this incident in other parts of the world. :eek:

Oh like those UK folks should talk - some of them don't even use saddlepads. ;) (Breathe people, it was a joke).


Personally I've decided to credit the whole of the matter to the failures of the short format, since I still don't really have a decisive stance. :yes: And that's what this is all really about, ain't it kids? Finding someone to blame.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 08:33 PM
Let me expalin Erin...That language is NOT approiate ANYWHERE. so may i suggest that you take a lead from other forums and stop abuse like that! you may feel free to SSSSHHHH!! behind your PC... and even your toilet breaks should not allow for such sickening attitudes towards people continue. would you like the name? So ERIN,your not too noble yorself and as an administror you need to be OUT the situation to give a fair point to other peoples opinions and views. SO ERIN when your abused so badly PLEASE send me a message and i will TOO send you one backsaying this is a PG forum and dont trouble me!!!! this is the type of non action that has confirmed if your are not n a clique to hell with it!! what a sad little person you are! READ THAT AND TELL\ME GOD HATES ME!!!!\SORRY YOU CANT YOUR TOO INPARTIAL! what a very biased upsetting forum you dare to adminstrate

What on God's green earth are you talking about??!

My only point is that the language was totally inappropriate for a public forum, and as it's my job to decide what is and isn't appropriate, I removed it.

I'm not defending the person who sent it to you, for crying out loud. I'm just saying you shouldn't have posted it here. If it was from a COTH poster and you wanted me to take action on it, a better way to address it would have been to PM me.

Edited to add -- your original post said the nastygram was posted on YouTube, and I can't take action against COTH members for what they do on other sites. (This ain't UDBB, after all.) You should be talking to the powers that be at YouTube, not me.

canyonoak
May. 2, 2007, 08:45 PM
This post is an open 'love letter' to our mod, Erin.

Although reading certain threads is like picking at a sore--both repellent and yet impossible to stop doing--my admiration for COTH and for your cool moderation skills just knows no bounds.

I do not think there is another public BB like this one: where no matter how distasteful an idea, so long as people are willing to stop short of outright namecalling, anyone may pose a platform, give their opinion.

Yeah, Erin!

and before anyone accuses me of sucking up--don't bother. I am most assuredly sucking up--and I think Erin Is Worth It!

hotcha.

Paks
May. 2, 2007, 08:48 PM
ditto

vineyridge
May. 2, 2007, 08:53 PM
Perhaps one of the Chronicle's journalists could contact jmorris@usef.org for an update on Le Samurai's condition. Looks like s/he has been designated official contact.

CallMeGrace
May. 2, 2007, 08:53 PM
double ditto (is there such a thing??)

wanderlust
May. 2, 2007, 08:54 PM
First, to whomever said that Mark Phillips statement was B.S., this guy has been in Amy's shoes therefore has the right to comment and really ya'll he's like the Simon Cowell of eventing and I am not sure if he's capable of BS. He is one of (if not THE) most respected horsemen on the planet and he'd be the first to call Amy out if he needed to, but alas.... Please, please be careful posting ludicrous comedic statements like this... folks might be consuming a beverage a the time they read it.

I laughed so hard I snorted my diet coke out of my nose.

Mariequi
May. 2, 2007, 08:54 PM
Am I the only one who pictures flintus yelling - like all the time? I'm just starting to scan right past those posts - tiring.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 2, 2007, 08:57 PM
Am I the only one who pictures flintus yelling - like all the time? I'm just starting to scan right past those posts - tiring.

Haha I do. Hands flailing too, bright red face.

JAGold
May. 2, 2007, 09:14 PM
yes MY black and white world has not and will not EVER put my horse in danger, of life.
Do you ride your horse? He could break his leg while you are hacking. It could be because you made a mistake and steered him to a hole. Or you could send him to a bad distance at a jump and cause a serious crash. Do you trailer him? You could get into an accident that causes him to be injured beyond recovery. --Jess

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 09:34 PM
Um, I'm not talking about Amy. I'm saying WE should be using logic while evaluating this situation.

Amy made a quick decision and certainly some of the consequences flowed through her head. (I've been there...this weekend in fact. Horse landed oddly off a jump, cross-cantered, switched back to the lead and the moved on. I had about 15 strides to decided if I should take the next jump. He felt fine and even within 4 strides so I continued. Within those few strides I went through "what will happen if he is really hurt and I take the next fence?)

Um, I am not even sure how to respond to that.

However, if you want a stab at logic, how about this: AT DID have the option to circle her horse and assess the damage before she continued on. It may have cost her some time penalties, but no jumping penalties and certainly would NOT have put her out of contention to place or even still win, had her horse proven itself to be okay with a moment to regroup.

SCFarm

brindille
May. 2, 2007, 09:35 PM
It's a real shame that a very legitimate and necessary discussion has turned into a ridiculous circus. We needed to scrutinize and talk about this incident, but now people on all sides have obscured the real issues with infintile postings.:no:

arnika
May. 2, 2007, 10:56 PM
Originally by LLDM:

From http://www.usef.org/content/newsDisp...PR.php?id=2051 (http://www.usef.org/content/newsDisplay/viewPR.php?id=2051)


Quote:
For Immediate Release May 2, 2007
Statement from the USEF on the Injury to Le Samurai at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event

(Lexington, KY) – The injury to Le Samurai, ridden by Amy Tryon, sustained at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event on April 28th is under review by the FEI. They will obtain a statement from the Ground Jury at the competition and from the Appeal Committee, and conduct a hearing which will include a review of the tape of the incident. A judgment will then be made in the case. The USEF will honor that decision, abide by it and enforce it. A schedule for this hearing and judgment has not yet been set.

Amy Tryon is devastated by this tragic injury to her partner. She has been an outstanding representative of the United States, both on and off the field, winning medals in many international competitions including the Olympic Games and The FEI World Equestrian Games. Amy is respected worldwide as a kind and generous horse woman who gives back to the sport, and an athlete of great character and principle. The USEF is prepared to guide her through the hearing process.

Le Samurai continues to rest comfortably at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute in Lexington, Kentucky. Inquiries regarding his condition should be referred to jmorris@usef.org.



And then there is this from: http://www.useventing.com/competitio...n=rk3de&id=900 (http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=rk3de&id=900)



Quote:
United States Eventing Association Statement Concerning Le Samurai

Updated: May 2, 2007

Many of our members have voiced their sympathy and concern for the event horse Le Samurai, who was injured at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event on Saturday. The United States Eventing Association shares that concern, and shares with its members a deep commitment to the welfare of the horse as the matter of paramount importance in our sport.

The USEA currently has no information regarding Le Samurai's condition other than what has previously been made public. See the links below. When additional information regarding Le Samurai's condition is released, it will be posted on the USEA website.

As a result of the incident, Le Samurai's rider Amy Tryon was disqualified by the ground jury. The USEA understands that this matter has been referred to the FEI for review. The USEA will post additional information regarding the status of the FEI review as it is made public.

Amy Tryon has expressed her devastation at Le Samurai's injury. Ms. Tryon has been a USEA member since 1981 and has represented the United States with distinction in four international championships. For many years, Ms. Tryon has balanced a full-time career as a firefighter and paramedic with her international eventing career.
FEI Statement (http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/FEI%20Statement%20Le%20Samurai.pdf)
USEF Statement (http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/USEF%20Statement%20Le%20Samurai.pdf)
Statement from Dr. Catherine Kohn, FEI Veterinary Delegate at Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event (http://www.teamtryon.com/)

Amy Tryon's Statement (http://www.teamtryon.com/)

Thank you for posting that, LLDM. It's just my opinion but the USEF statement seems to infer the FEI will attempt a serious review and it's good to read that they will abide by the FEI decision. It spends a good amount on praise for Amy, sounding as though if the USEF had its way she wouldn't be censured at all. Especially with the "The USEF is prepared to guide her through the hearing process.". I realize AT must be a close personal friend/student of the USEF administration and I hope there is no bending of the rules and that there is thought for the horse as well as the rider.

I did notice that Le Samurai is only mentioned in passing with one line "The injury to Le Samurai, ridden by Amy Tryon ....... is under review by the FEI.".

The USEA statement seems to be a small bit more impartial and at least actually gives a nod to Le Samurai's condition.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 11:13 PM
I know... I was referring to that poster's personal opinion that Amy ought never be allowed to compete in her home country (UK).Huh? Amy's home country is the US, not UK.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 11:14 PM
I don't know that I'd read too much into the "guide through the hearing process" statement. USEF does a lot of "guiding" type stuff for top-level riders with regard to competing overseas and international issues. They are the national federation and the liason between riders and the FEI, so it makes sense that they'd be involved at some level with an FEI inquiry regarding an American rider.

At least, that's my perception... someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! Can't say as I have any personal experience interacting with the FEI. ;)

Ellie K
May. 2, 2007, 11:19 PM
The USEF will honor that decision, abide by it and enforce it.:lol:. Spin, anyone? Ahem, the USEF is BOUND by the FEI rules and statutes,as a condition of membership, to "honor that decision, abide by it and enforce it." LOLOL. Although given the USEF's historic cherry picking of the FEI rules, I guess it's good that they, er...clarified that they do in fact intend to comply in this instance. Consequences have a tendency to assure compliance!

I must say that I was struck by the difference in tone and content between the 2 PRs. Note that the USEA starts off by asserting their commitment to the welfare of the horse, first and foremost. The USEF makes no mention of even the general concept of the welfare of the competition horse, only that a particular horse was injured. Obviously they don't want to say anything that paints someone as guilty. But asserting welfare as the paramount consideration doesn't do that. It says to the public/membership: if horse welfare was compromised, we don't approve. In other words, even if "our" rider was in the wrong, we maintain that the horse comes first. It's a bit odd. But given the state of USEF's communications competence these days, it might be simple ignorance (just as with the comment about USEF planning to abide by the decision).

Ellie K
May. 2, 2007, 11:26 PM
Huh? Amy's home country is the US, not UK.linquest was responding to the UK poster who said (hysterically and ridiculously) that Amy is not welcome to compete in that poster's country (the UK).

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 11:31 PM
I don't know that I'd read too much into the "guide through the hearing process" statement. USEF does a lot of "guiding" type stuff for top-level riders with regard to competing overseas and international issues. They are the national federation and the liason between riders and the FEI, so it makes sense that they'd be involved at some level with an FEI inquiry regarding an American rider.

At least, that's my perception... someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! Can't say as I have any personal experience interacting with the FEI. ;)

I seem to remember Germany being directly involved on behalf of Bettina Hoy and Lugar Beerbaum (sp?) and Ireland with O'Connor/Waterford Crystal in those respective issues. However, they were all competing to their respective Teams at that point, so I really don't know if that makes any difference.

In any case I believe the althlete in question is supposed to be accompanied by their NGB reps. I could certainly be wrong. And there are no medals at stake here (and those are usually the big hairy deal), so that might make it different too.

SCFarm

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 11:50 PM
linquest was responding to the UK poster who said (hysterically and ridiculously) that Amy is not welcome to compete in that poster's country (the UK).
But the UK poster said his name was Peter. So not a "her". The only "her" is Amy.

Ellie K
May. 3, 2007, 12:21 AM
But the UK poster said his name was Peter. So not a "her". The only "her" is Amy.I don't remember anyone identifying himself as Peter, just flintus, which is who linquest was responding to. So if I missed that flintus' name is Peter, perhaps linquest did as well. In any case Amy's nationality had no relevance to the discussion; it was about flintus' country and whether or not flintus/peter/whoever wanted her to compete there.

His Greyness
May. 3, 2007, 12:24 AM
Reading the responses in this thread I am reminded of the poem/song by Banjo Paterson (who wrote "Waltzing Matilda") "Riders in the Stand":

But all the finest horsemen out -- the men to Beat the Band --

You'll find amongst the crowd that ride their races in the Stand.

linquest
May. 3, 2007, 12:33 AM
Ellie K- thanks, you are correct! I'm glad I made sense to someone :lol:

Ellie K
May. 3, 2007, 12:34 AM
lol, now if only flintus made some sense to someone.

Janet
May. 3, 2007, 07:59 AM
I don't remember anyone identifying himself as Peter, just flintus, which is who linquest was responding to. So if I missed that flintus' name is Peter, perhaps linquest did as well. In any case Amy's nationality had no relevance to the discussion; it was about flintus' country and whether or not flintus/peter/whoever wanted her to compete there.
When I went back to find it, that post had been editied or removed. But if you check his profile it is still there. Anyway, that is why I found linquest's post confusing.

M. O'Connor
May. 3, 2007, 08:07 AM
Not an eventer here. No comment on the incident itself--I didn't see it, and all I know is from the heated discussion here. But it seems that the USEA has a more properly neutral stance concerning the matter than has USEF.

I have written to USEF's CEO and President expressing my concern at this.

Part of the problem may be in the press office at USEF--there has been some sloppy writing coming out of that office recently, and I think that the persons responsible for it are probably unaware of the implications of issuing official statements such as the one above. Anyone who could mistake Butterfly Flip for Shutterfly in coverage of the FEI World Cup (for DAYS this mistake was up on the USEF's coverage of the WC) could be unaware of the differences in nuance between saying that "AT is devastated" as opposed to saying that "AT has expressed devatation."

Again--I have no opinion, didn't see it, it's not my sport. But I am concerned that the USEF statement is not as strong a reflection of concern for the welfare of our equine partners as I would like to see.

PiedPiper
May. 3, 2007, 08:08 AM
And here I thought the Brits were a laid back group of beer guzzling folks! :winkgrin: (joke people!)

I think this thread can be summed up with "it takes all kinds".:lol:

Oh and we did we have a temper tantrum good bye with feet stomping and fist pumping from our new friend? I wonder, like others who have exited with such flair, if this one will actually stay gone or won't be able to help him/herself and stay quiet.

The suspense is killing me!

HECS04
May. 3, 2007, 08:27 AM
And that's what this is all really about, ain't it kids? Finding someone to blame.

I think you hit the nail directly on the head!!! it is just a search for someone to blame

Lisamarie8
May. 3, 2007, 08:41 AM
I think you hit the nail directly on the head!!! it is just a search for someone to blame

The word blame has significant negative connotations. I prefer the words "Held Responsible," and I think we would be remiss as a society, a culture, and horsemen if we didn't determine who should be held responsible (which to me is obvious), and why.

You can call it blame if you like, but it seems to me that just a couple of months ago there was a thread about eventers and accountability. I also remember there being QUITE a huge uproar on that thread INSISTING that as a group, eventers were a hard working and honest lot that personified good horsemanship. The conversation on that thread seems to me to be incongruent with the conversation on this thread.

Blame, responsibility, or accountability; call it what you will , but regardless of what you call it, or how you view it (a lynching, a process of growth, or a way to learn and move on), it's going to happen. And it should.

HECS04
May. 3, 2007, 08:45 AM
you make a good point...i think i need a word different than blame

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 10:50 AM
LisaMarie8- Execllent post! I believe that and, even more, I believe in the reasons behind accountability, responsibility, or even blame (if one wants to put the that emphasis on it).

This IS a teachable moment - all the more so because of the tragic nature of it. There have been several insightful posts about this. There was the jockey (execercise rider?) who said that they were specifically trained on how to recognize a breakdown injury and what to do in the event it happened to minimize the injury while pulling up.

If the only thing to come out of this was that type of training/information became a common skill or training point for eventing and other equine sports it would almost be worth this whole mess.

The whole thread concerning how various soft tissues break down is another. Understanding these things help us manage our equine athletes better and I have been reading it with great interest.

I can only hope that this incident causes a rethink about our rules and proceedures. Maybe we need to think about empowering judges, jump judges and other "minor" officials to wave or whistle a rider off course - even if it is just for a few seconds - to assess a problem. Maybe we need to explore rules that encourage a rider to slow and/or circle to assess the severity of misstep/bobble/NQR. This IS the process that better guidelines often come from.

As difficult as it is, I do think that there are a number of good things that can come out of the "deconstruction" of this incident.

SCFarm

SCFarm

beeblebrox
May. 3, 2007, 10:52 AM
I bought the video online to watch the whole xc so no grainy video assumptions.

First I am sad after watching so many good rounds that this Amy fiasco has seemed in some ways to over shadow all the fantastic efforts made out there. There was some amazing riding!

Second Amy's horse was telling her something well before the "BREAKDOWN" he was laboring and not the horse I had seen jumping before. He was tired and she was going to her stick and aids a lot. IN the grainy utube video you just get to see the 35 second when things go really bad, well sad to say if you watch before that you will see a exhausted horse being pushed and the FEI will watch his whole ride... IN seeing most of her ride now I feel she pushed a exhausted horse beyond necessary which resulted in a catastrophic injury. Watch the whole ride or what they show, it was not just the last 2 jumps that did this horse in ;-(

JSwan
May. 3, 2007, 11:15 AM
I watched the entire thing - got it for 8$ on mediazone. Well worth the money and I hope they got enough $ to make it worthwhile in the future.

For those who are hurling epithets like abuse and whatnot, I suggest you take a look at real abuse cases before deciding that Amy is some sort of criminal.

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure this rider is punishing herself enough and doesn't need armchair quarterbacks sticking her with needles. No rider wants to injure their horse, but we all accept that the decisions we make about them may turn out to be wrong..... and cause harm inadvertently. That isn't criminal - it's human.

We're all faced with choices, and some of them have to be made without complete information, in a crisis, under stress, or quickly. There is no guarantee that we'll make the right choice.

I, for one, will lament that the horse was injured, and empathize with Amy. And I'll support continued efforts to improve rider and horse safety in eventing.

I sincerely doubt that Amy was so driven by greed and insensitivity that she purposefully pushed an obviously injured horse to jump an obstacle that most of us couldn't climb with a ladder. Even if we supposed she was a selfish horrible monster, she wouldn't want to risk her own life.

Just a thought....

beeblebrox
May. 3, 2007, 11:31 AM
"HECS04
Quote:
Originally Posted by TB or not TB?

And that's what this is all really about, ain't it kids? Finding someone to blame.
I think you hit the nail directly on the head!!! it is just a search for someone to blame"

The TERM BLAME is BS
More fair and accurate IMO would be accountability and no that is not some play with semantics people. A rider should take accountability for her/his actions. There is not a sport in the world or political ring who would not have this same discussion should one of their own fumbled. This is NOT a LYNCHING of any rider but IMO a discussion about responsibility and accountability.. As far as the public side goes if one is not ready to except accountability do not have a face in the public and a world wide covered event. I can not speak for others but even though I think this rider should be accountable for the actions on XC AND I do have EMPATHY and would myself be devastated at the loss of a horse. I feel strongly for her and what she is going through but that does not negate my feeling she should also be held accountable for pushing a exhausted horse! IT is possible to feel badly for this rider and lament with and for her while also seeking accountability and responsibility, this is not a what is past is prolog situation. The Organizations (FEI, USEA and USEF) need to have a ruling as a message for this rider and others, that is a life lesson and how the world works not a lynching or circus... IN speaking to friends and reading comments I think there is a blurred line that is throwing some for a loop. It is possible you can believe she is responsible for making a decision while not DELIBERATELY wanting to harm this animal. IT is possible to be wrong and not be a bad person or having evil intent, it just might have been a bad call and that does not negate responsibility and accountability from the problem. Even if FEI fines her and sanctions her she is not a EVIL person or BAD horse person, she is like all of us a person who made a split second decision but hers was in the public eye.

RugBug
May. 3, 2007, 11:32 AM
Um, I am not even sure how to respond to that.

However, if you want a stab at logic, how about this: AT DID have the option to circle her horse and assess the damage before she continued on. It may have cost her some time penalties, but no jumping penalties and certainly would NOT have put her out of contention to place or even still win, had her horse proven itself to be okay with a moment to regroup.

SCFarm

LLDM,

I never meant my post to be an all conclusive list of the possible scenarios involved. :rolleyes: I meant my list to show that flintus is lacking quite a bit of logic with her/his completely illogical assertions that AT continued on for "glory", selfishness, evilness, shallow values, etc. Should I go add your option to the list? Because it would fit right in.

Why don't you go after someone who actually deserves it? I may not be ready to string Ms. Tryon up, but that doesn't mean I'm not perplexed by her actions.

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 11:35 AM
JSwan -

"Abuse" in this case is defined by the FEI General Rules under which AT is cited. In this case it is a technical definition (albeit very broadly defined).



Chapter VII - Protection of Competitors and Horses

Article 143 - Abuse of Horses

1. No person may abuse a horse during an event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a horse, including without limitation any of the following:
<snip>
1.5. To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured horse;
<snip>


This is the the violation (Art. 143.1.5) cited by/to the Ground Jury under the Art. 167 protest.

SCFarm

Bogie
May. 3, 2007, 11:38 AM
I bought the video online to watch the whole xc so no grainy video assumptions.

First I am sad after watching so many good rounds that this Amy fiasco has seemed in some ways to over shadow all the fantastic efforts made out there. There was some amazing riding!

Second Amy's horse was telling her something well before the "BREAKDOWN" he was laboring and not the horse I had seen jumping before. He was tired and she was going to her stick and aids a lot. IN the grainy utube video you just get to see the 35 second when things go really bad, well sad to say if you watch before that you will see a exhausted horse being pushed and the FEI will watch his whole ride... IN seeing most of her ride now I feel she pushed a exhausted horse beyond necessary which resulted in a catastrophic injury. Watch the whole ride or what they show, it was not just the last 2 jumps that did this horse in ;-(

Did we see the same ride? I thought that the ride was very smooth and tactful. She's riding a tricky, hot horse and rather than fight him throughout the course, let him gallop on inbetween the fences with a loose rein. I did not see her pushing an exhausted horse, nor excessively using her crop. She collected him nicely before every fence. Kerry Milliken repeatedly mentioned how beautifully the horse was going during the ride.

The last 30 seconds is awful to watch. However, I can't see how anyone can criticize what came before.

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 11:59 AM
LLDM,

I never meant my post to be an all conclusive list of the possible scenarios involved. :rolleyes: I meant my list to show that flintus is lacking quite a bit of logic with her/his completely illogical assertions that AT continued on for "glory", selfishness, evilness, shallow values, etc. Should I go add your option to the list? Because it would fit right in.

Why don't you go after someone who actually deserves it? I may not be ready to string Ms. Tryon up, but that doesn't mean I'm not perplexed by her actions.

First, I am not after anyone. Second, I have been very careful in my posts about NOT trying to figure out what went through AT's head. No one can know that but her.

Which is why I said I didn't know how to respond to your post. I am just trying to make what sense of this I can. I am not trying to pick on anyone. And I do think that logic has its limitations when sorting this out. I am sorry if you took it personally, as that was not my intent. I guess I did a sloppy job of avoiding the part of the post that addressed "what might be going through her head" to get to the point about options. My attempt to make it clear clearly backfired. Sorry.

SCFarm

JSwan
May. 3, 2007, 12:00 PM
Thanks - I'm familiar with the rules - and I have absolutely no problem with any incident being throughly investigated.

My comments were directed at some of the posts - I read them all. I thought many of them were unjustly harsh and critical.

I never evented above Novice - so I admit to having no experience at taking jumps like this. But I took up hunting a few years ago - which in some ways is just as stressful, focused and dangerous as eventing (or even more so)

I've had the experience of being in the middle of a stressful situation and not being able to fully appreciate what was happening. And the instinct was to kick on - as not moving forward could have resulted in greater injury to me or my horse, or or or or - the mind just races - and the more experience a person has - doesn't necessarily mean that the right decision will always be made. Quick thinking doesn't always result in the right decision, and neither does vacillating.

Sorry that wasn't clear in my post.


JSwan -

"Abuse" in this case is defined by the FEI General Rules under which AT is cited. In this case it is a technical definition (albeit very broadly defined).



This is the the violation (Art. 143.1.5) cited by/to the Ground Jury under the Art. 167 protest.

SCFarm

RugBug
May. 3, 2007, 12:22 PM
LLDM,

No worries. I made a post earlier about not wanting to make assumptions about AT's motivations. I still stand by that. But after hearing the ridiculous scenario's the some people are stating like FACT, I requested they use a little logic when coming up with their opinions of why she did what she did. That is all. It is really hard to logic yourself into a scenario where AT completed the course for glory, vanity, selfishness, etc.

That alone was my point...and maybe it wasn't as clear as I would've liked it to be.

vineyridge
May. 3, 2007, 12:44 PM
I'm with J Swan. That IS what happens.

One thing the powers that be might want to address is the time. There is no reason for the time to be so tight that a rider can't do a circle and still have a chance for minimal time penalties. Time at Rolex was incredibly tight, and the placing were actually decided--in many cases--on time. That seems odd, and a factor that could lead to bad judgment.

bird4416
May. 3, 2007, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by beeblebrox http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2406403#post2406403)
I bought the video online to watch the whole xc so no grainy video assumptions.

First I am sad after watching so many good rounds that this Amy fiasco has seemed in some ways to over shadow all the fantastic efforts made out there. There was some amazing riding!

Second Amy's horse was telling her something well before the "BREAKDOWN" he was laboring and not the horse I had seen jumping before. He was tired and she was going to her stick and aids a lot. IN the grainy utube video you just get to see the 35 second when things go really bad, well sad to say if you watch before that you will see a exhausted horse being pushed and the FEI will watch his whole ride... IN seeing most of her ride now I feel she pushed a exhausted horse beyond necessary which resulted in a catastrophic injury. Watch the whole ride or what they show, it was not just the last 2 jumps that did this horse in ;-(

Did we see the same ride? I thought that the ride was very smooth and tactful. She's riding a tricky, hot horse and rather than fight him throughout the course, let him gallop on inbetween the fences with a loose rein. I did not see her pushing an exhausted horse, nor excessively using her crop. She collected him nicely before every fence


I've watched the entire ride many times. Amy rides beautifully and the horse looks great until the last few jumps. The second to the last in particular. LS looks tired and Amy goes to the crop at that fence and is seen driving him on. I don't know what to make of this as most all 4* event horses would be tired at the end but LS looks really tired.

RugBug
May. 3, 2007, 12:55 PM
Time at Rolex was incredibly tight, and the placing were actually decided--in many cases--on time. That seems odd, and a factor that could lead to bad judgment.

Possibly so dressage wasn't the deciding factor...as it seems to be so often these days?

(I have to give a :yes: to the poster who questioned the short format. Is it possible this is one of the effects? Not as fit horses, horses that are run more often, dressage weighing VERY heavily in the finally outcome...etc. Just kind of makes you go hrmmmm).

Erin
May. 3, 2007, 12:56 PM
I'm with J Swan. That IS what happens.

One thing the powers that be might want to address is the time. There is no reason for the time to be so tight that a rider can't do a circle and still have a chance for minimal time penalties. Time at Rolex was incredibly tight, and the placing were actually decided--in many cases--on time. That seems odd, and a factor that could lead to bad judgment.

Time is usually quite tight, and time penalties are usually a big factor in the placings at these events.

And yes, it absolutely should be so tight that a rider can't do a circle without getting a lot of time penalties. You should not be able to place in the top six at a four-star if you've circled on course.

There's no point in making events easier so that people can circle and check their horses' legs. Any rider who has a concern should circle, stop, whatever, time penalties be damned. THAT is the point.

Gry2Yng
May. 3, 2007, 01:11 PM
There's no point in making events easier so that people can circle and check their horses' legs. Any rider who has a concern should circle, stop, whatever, time penalties be damned. THAT is the point.


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not think that my 100% support of this statement is a reflection on my opinion of Amy or the LS incident.

I only want to show my support for the VERY APPROPRIATE statement that I have quoted above. If we want to keep our sport and protect our horses, sometimes it must come at the price of winning. You see bad decisions made at all levels over penalty points. The life of the rider and the life of the horse should always be a priority over final results and we cannot make rules that will put this philosophy in the hearts of riders where it just doesn't exist. Nor can we legislate common sense. Its too bad. If we could, we wouldn't need pages of rules about qualifying.

vineyridge
May. 3, 2007, 01:15 PM
Erin, what I was thinking about are the statements from so many people such as "he stung himself, but worked out of it in a couple of strides"--or "would you want to stop for nothing?" "Or he pulled a shoe, but was able to continue without harm and could compete the next day." When you're going, you can't tell what's wrong, just that something is. Maybe the horse can work out of it, maybe not. So your first instinct in a time event is to kick on and follow your plan. If the time had allowed another, say,5 or 6 seconds for injury evaluation, (maybe not a full circle, but a serpentine line at less than the designated speed), the rider would have more information to make decisions on. S/he would still get time penalties, but not quite as many, maybe leading to better decision making.

And of course time penalties. Not suggesting that you wouldn't get them, any more than if you took the slow route on all the options. Or if you had to represent.

And, I have to say that THIS Rolex seems to me to have been more decided on time than most of the others in the past. Even the winner had time penalties XC.

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 01:22 PM
Time is usually quite tight, and time penalties are usually a big factor in the placings at these events.

And yes, it absolutely should be so tight that a rider can't do a circle without getting a lot of time penalties. You should not be able to place in the top six at a four-star if you've circled on course.

There's no point in making events easier so that people can circle and check their horses' legs. Any rider who has a concern should circle, stop, whatever, time penalties be damned. THAT is the point.

Thank you! And just to expand on this a little for people who may not know - circling on XC is not penalized directly. There are no jumping penalties for circling or stopping unless the horse has been "presented" to a fence. Yes, there may be time faults, depending on the rest of the round. But there are not the "crossing of one's track" issues like there are in Stadium, Jumpers, Hunters or EQ.

This has changed. Many years ago, in my first time around with eventing there was something, IIRC, called the penalty box around each XC fence. Circling or crossing one's line WAS considered as a full (20 point) refusal if it were done within that box. Those days are long gone, and I believe it is for the better, as it gives riders much more generous options to regroup if they know something is NQR several strides out.

Since time penalties are much lower (0.4 per second over max. time) one would need to be 50 seconds over to equal a refusal on course. One can circle a number of times in 50 seconds and it sure is safer than a refusal or a bad jump.

SCFarm

Hannahsmom
May. 3, 2007, 01:40 PM
I was wondering about that, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to circle within the galloping lanes. They seem fairly narrow with the ropes in some areas although I didn't walk in that turn specifically. And in many cases beyond the rope it is packed with people. That might be a good thing to investigate for the future. Obviously she could have gone past, but in that split second, would it have been easier for her to decide to circle if there was more room? Maybe or maybe not, we'll never know.

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 3, 2007, 01:47 PM
I have to wonder if the fact that an American rider did what was done (notice the language no accusations) is fueling a great deal of what you are seeing on horse and hound? Sad but true we yanks ain't all that well liked in Europe at the moment. If a rider from Europe had done what was done...It just got me thinking.

I have ridden in the UK (show hunters, events, and hunts) the English are no worse and no better than anyone else when it comes to horse management. The issues with the short format is valid. Just look at the horses schedule, Crazy! Do we think that the old eventing greats were hauled half way across the eastern seaboard all spring and then aimed over 40+ jumping efforts? Did the great all time show jumpers get their legs jumped off of them week in and week out? When I was coming up through the ranks I was always told to save your horses legs for the show. When there is a show every other weekend, how on earth are you going to save those legs? Yes dressage is so much more important, but what has been lost. How about all of that condition work? The process by which a horses's (or any athletes) ligaments, tendons, and muscle becomes strong is well understood and it has to be with constant weak load stressing of those tissues. If a horse spends 70% of its time at 'dressage' what about the tissues needed to carry the hores at speed? Look at endurance riders prep scheudles for races like Tevis...

Also the issues of the WB's is citicial. I watched the NBC feed and the horse (while I don't think looks tired) is not running in a good pace. He looked like he had better things to do, and that running around KY was not on his top ten. He looked sour. The TB's are breed (mentally and physically) to run. I don't think that you can underestimate that. No need to be full TB, but the colder horses are not as efficent at speed, they don't revel in it. That is just a fact.

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 02:02 PM
H-E-H - A couple of things.

Can you imagine the reactions of Americans had this happened with a reatively unknown rider from a not-so-competitive nation? I have the feeling someone like that would really be crucified by everyone except those of his/her own country, even if he/she and the horse had great track records. Think about it.

And, I'm sorry, but blaming the horse's bloodlines a bit far from the point. LS has won two *** and placed very well (5th, 4th & 2nd) at two more ***s in the last two years.

SCFarm

Erin
May. 3, 2007, 02:20 PM
I have to wonder if the fact that an American rider did what was done (notice the language no accusations) is fueling a great deal of what you are seeing on horse and hound? Sad but true we yanks ain't all that well liked in Europe at the moment. If a rider from Europe had done what was done...It just got me thinking.

I'm not sure it has so much to do with the fact that she is American as it does with the fact that she's just not from *their* country.

Here, people know Amy. They've trained with her, competed alongside her, watched her, etc. for years. Of course it's much harder for us to think badly of her, which I think shows up in the differences in the responses to the polls (the Horse and Hound crowd vs. here).

That's a pretty universal thing, I think. Think about how you'd react if a good friend of yours did something that caused them to get a lot of criticism... say, being involved in a drunk driving accident. You'd of course think that what your friend did was wrong, but you also know the friend's good qualities and are not going to be calling for them to be shot at dawn.

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 3, 2007, 02:30 PM
I did not mean to say that a horse breeding is a reason for a break down, only to submit that the type of horse capable of the short format needs to be thought about. You have to have a horse that gets through all 3 phases, not just one that can post a DQ score and defend it. Sport Horse breeding is and can be really sucessful (look at Teddy) but we have to think about the impact of diminished TB blood lines in the sport. This sport was devised as a test of militaty mounts. The calvary had a much more utilitarian view. If the horse did not stand up to the rigors of le militaire...so be it.

I don't think that this case of breakdown was or is ever going to be causal. It was a freak accident compounded by a decision. What we as eventers have to do is think about what the future of this sport. The short format is not the long term answer. But clearly the long format was not either. This sport is absurdly demanding. We will always lose good horse and good riders to it. As long as we gallop at telephone poles cemented into the ground, we are charged with mitigating risk becasuse we can't elimante it.

hb
May. 3, 2007, 05:54 PM
This has changed. Many years ago, in my first time around with eventing there was something, IIRC, called the penalty box around each XC fence. Circling or crossing one's line WAS considered as a full (20 point) refusal if it were done within that box. Those days are long gone, and I believe it is for the better, as it gives riders much more generous options to regroup if they know something is NQR several strides out.


Do FEI events still have the penalty box or was that dropped in the FEI rules also?

Janet
May. 3, 2007, 06:41 PM
Do FEI events still have the penalty box or was that dropped in the FEI rules also?
No penalty boxes for FEI.

retreadeventer
May. 3, 2007, 06:57 PM
LisaMarie8- Execllent post! I believe that and, even more, I believe in the reasons behind accountability, responsibility, or even blame (if one wants to put the that emphasis on it).

This IS a teachable moment - all the more so because of the tragic nature of it. There have been several insightful posts about this. There was the jockey (execercise rider?) who said that they were specifically trained on how to recognize a breakdown injury and what to do in the event it happened to minimize the injury while pulling up.

If the only thing to come out of this was that type of training/information became a common skill or training point for eventing and other equine sports it would almost be worth this whole mess.

The whole thread concerning how various soft tissues break down is another. Understanding these things help us manage our equine athletes better and I have been reading it with great interest.

I can only hope that this incident causes a rethink about our rules and proceedures. Maybe we need to think about empowering judges, jump judges and other "minor" officials to wave or whistle a rider off course - even if it is just for a few seconds - to assess a problem. Maybe we need to explore rules that encourage a rider to slow and/or circle to assess the severity of misstep/bobble/NQR. This IS the process that better guidelines often come from.

As difficult as it is, I do think that there are a number of good things that can come out of the "deconstruction" of this incident.

SCFarm

SCFarm
I am heartily and resoundingly against having a jump judge do this to a competitor. For obvious reasons. A 14 year old pony clubber does not have the world experience nor the judgment to stop an upper level rider on course because they think their horse is lame. This is not where this should be brought in. If one is worried about lameness on course then they should find a way to determine soundness within the rules. There are multiple places for judges and stewards that are OFFICIALS and have been thru the training and the schools to determine when a horse is in trouble.

Angela Freda
May. 3, 2007, 07:47 PM
I am heartily and resoundingly against having a jump judge do this to a competitor. For obvious reasons. A 14 year old pony clubber does not have the world experience nor the judgment to stop an upper level rider on course because they think their horse is lame. This is not where this should be brought in. If one is worried about lameness on course then they should find a way to determine soundness within the rules. There are multiple places for judges and stewards that are OFFICIALS and have been thru the training and the schools to determine when a horse is in trouble.

IMO we all had radios and if there was a question (about lameness or anything) one could radio to the TD (is that what they are called?) or the next fence to make sure it's watched for. But no, as a former jump judge who has never evented (but watched many) there is no way I want the results of someones run to be on my head!

Carol Ames
May. 3, 2007, 08:11 PM
I've just watched the video of eventing SJ from the Barcelona Olympics;) , where , the team as a as a a whole was a mess,:mad: in fact the riders on it got together during the training camp in England before the start of the Olympics, and agreed that they were on a sinking ship :( and not likely to finish as a team, but , agreed to pull together,;) do the best they could and regroup after the games :yes: ; this was the first year of a truly objective, points only selection system, which resulted in some horses/riders who, were truly not fit or healthy :eek: being on the team and shipping to Europe , there were lots of factors, some riders did not like Lars, and with encouragement of their US coaches proceeded to do the opposite of what he, Lars, requested in:o training; in general it was an Olympics to forget :yes: , except that: the elimination of sand Script wasactually an elimination of Todd; for not pulling up earlier in the course; during SJ Mike Plumb when asked ,said that he thought speed and endurance should be changed , A and C defintely shorter., Steeplechase definitely shortened or eliminated entirely! so that's where it started not the IOCs' threat to eliminate eventing from he games unless changes were made; which was how I under stood the short format came to be. " but, in conversations at Barcelona wit was it Mike Plumb, of all people , what a surprise! Dorthy Morkis /trapp just said that the horses looked great that morning;, Sand Script recovered quickly in the stable and looked bright eyed that morning; unfortunately it was also the year Karen OC made the unfortunate decision to run at Badminton with mr. Maxwell;:( and, in which Stephens' elimination athe 2nd water was used as ammunition :( for George Michaels ( a local sports areporter on T. V.here in Wash. D.C. who fancies himself an authority on horses because he ebreeds some, paints, Western type:lol: . after showing Steves' ride athe2nd water said "This why I say eventing should NOT be in the Olympics! and started a panic in the states; He said nothing about speed end endurance , as I recall, he was saying the riders have no "horse sense", maybe I will come across that tape , too.It sparked a lot of "how to talk to the Press forums . etc.

Gnep
May. 3, 2007, 08:40 PM
Now every body is a saint.
Remember how rude, ruthless the coments in this BB were when Bettina Hoy did screwed up in Athens, there was no mercy. Nobody looked at the human side.
You screw up as a top notch rider in public, at an top notch competition, you get hammered.

How many eventers have been disqualified for the same causes as AT at an FEI competition.
I can not recall a single one and I guess that says it all.

Sannois
May. 3, 2007, 09:18 PM
Now every body is a saint.
Remember how rude, ruthless the coments in this BB were when Bettina Hoy did screwed up in Athens, there was no mercy. Nobody looked at the human side.
You screw up as a top notch rider in public, at an top notch competition, you get hammered.

How many eventers have been disqualified for the same causes as AT at an FEI competition.
I can not recall a single one and I guess that says it all.
certainly not being very sweet on this topic either. What was your point Gnep. ?

Mardi
May. 3, 2007, 09:22 PM
Why on earth is there no official information coming out of our national and international governing bodies and organizations?

.......I am begging for our NGB and orgs to face this head on and deal with this professionally!

SCFarm

Here's the May 2 press release from USEF:

"The injury to Le Samurai, ridden by Amy Tryon, sustained at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event on April 28 is under review by the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI). They will obtain a statement from the Ground Jury at the competition and from the Appeal Committee, and conduct a hearing which will include a review of the tape of the incident. A judgment will then be made in the case. The USEF will honor that decision, abide by it, and enforce it. A schedule for this hearing and judgment has not yet been set.

Amy Tryon is devastated by this tragic injury to her partner. She has been an outstanding representative of the United States, both on and off the field, winning medals in many international competitions including the Olympic Games and the FEI World Equestrian Games. Amy is respected worldwide as a kind and generous horse woman who gives back to the sport, and an athlete of great character and principle. The USEF is prepared to guide her through the hearing process.

Le Samurai continues to rest comfortably at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute in Lexington, Ky."

The second paragraph is very interesting, because of the tone. Apparently USEF is firmly in her camp, before the FEI has come to any conclusions.

Just an observation, nothing more.

hb
May. 3, 2007, 09:22 PM
: the elimination of sand Script wasactually an elimination of Todd; for not pulling up earlier in the course;

Didn't Todd get dq'd for pressing an exhausted horse? Does anyone know if there was a hearing and suspension for him?

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 09:55 PM
I am heartily and resoundingly against having a jump judge do this to a competitor. For obvious reasons. A 14 year old pony clubber does not have the world experience nor the judgment to stop an upper level rider on course because they think their horse is lame. This is not where this should be brought in. If one is worried about lameness on course then they should find a way to determine soundness within the rules. There are multiple places for judges and stewards that are OFFICIALS and have been thru the training and the schools to determine when a horse is in trouble.

With all due respect, jump judges judge upper level riders already and determine, often times, on things like whether or not a horse was actually "presented" to a fence, or if a pause/lack-of-forward-motion is really a stop or not, or the like. And most 14yo PCer's I know know a lame horse when they see one. Albeit, their parents, pressed into jump judging, often don't know either lameness, nor what a proper refusal is. Somehow we all live with it.

My point was that it bears thinking about such things, so that we can do a better job. The seconds lost could be subtracted from the rider's score if they pass the vet upon completion. Again, it is just an idea to get people thinking constructively.

Do you have any ideas on the subject? It's not like the idea of how to make our sport safer is a new one. Good folks have been working on this for decades and most agree we aren't done yet.

SCFarm

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 09:56 PM
Thanks Marti,

I did find that yesterday and posted it along with the the USEA one here: http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=rk3de&id=900

SCFarm

Gnep
May. 3, 2007, 10:16 PM
Sannois,

You are making exactly my point

PhoenixFarm
May. 3, 2007, 10:40 PM
Not to nitpick, and with all due respect to Le Samurai, he may have won some CIC***'s, but I am quite certain he never won a CCI***. Two very different things, especially in regards to the issues of fatigue we are discussing here. He did have a good record at CCI***'s with good placings, but he did not win them. A CIC is essentially a glorified horse trial, and does not ask the same of the horse in terms of distance and number of jumping efforts that a CCI, even a short format CCI, does.

Also, it would not be unknown for an excellent *** horse to not be a **** horse. Not saying that he was or wasn't, just trying to point out there is a significant difference between the two levels. Similarly, there have been superstars at the ** that just never quite managed it at advanced. Even though, the difference would not seem that great.

Carol Ames
May. 3, 2007, 11:04 PM
:no: A couple of proverbs come to mind: "What goes around comes around ", also, :t:cry: there but, for the grace of God go I:",, and finally, ...."until you've walked a mile in a mans' shoes...:o

eventer2002
May. 3, 2007, 11:17 PM
I know I could pay the 8 bucks, but I have a dial up connection at home making the internet extremely slow, so it would be difficult. Since the Hughes version of the accident got taken down off you tube, is there any one that could be put on that would stay up? Thanks.

LLDM
May. 3, 2007, 11:39 PM
Not to nitpick, and with all due respect to Le Samurai, he may have won some CIC***'s, but I am quite certain he never won a CCI***. Two very different things, especially in regards to the issues of fatigue we are discussing here. He did have a good record at CCI***'s with good placings, but he did not win them. A CIC is essentially a glorified horse trial, and does not ask the same of the horse in terms of distance and number of jumping efforts that a CCI, even a short format CCI, does.

Also, it would not be unknown for an excellent *** horse to not be a **** horse. Not saying that he was or wasn't, just trying to point out there is a significant difference between the two levels. Similarly, there have been superstars at the ** that just never quite managed it at advanced. Even though, the difference would not seem that great.

Interesting, good to know and food for thought. The only reason I brought up his record was to dispute that a half Holstiener was reason enough to believe LS was not competitive enough for Rolex. He may not have been, or may not have been in good enough condition, or just had a bad day. But according to this thread (started by a poster who usually has good info.) Ben Along Time is also half Hols. (and 1/4 ISH , 1/4 TB) and it seems he was not hindered too much by his WB portions of his pedigree. ;)

The truth of the matter is one never knows if they have a **** horse until they try a ****. Look at Teddy. Interestingly enough, the only place that Ben beat Teddy was in dressage. Ben had 5.6 time penalties XC to Teddy's 4.4 and had 1 TP to Teddy's double clear in SJ. Same for Connaught (ISH) with 8.4 and 2 TPs, respectively.

Maybe instead of saying "GO TEDDY, GO" we should try "BEND TEDDY, BEND"! :D

SCFarm

PhoenixFarm
May. 4, 2007, 12:28 AM
On the other scientific minded thread, I posted about my concerns (well prior to this incident) that the greater need for a super fancy mover has "allowed" (for lack of a better word) horses with conformational flaws, in terms of long term soundess, in to the sport to a higher degree. (And here, as mentioned in my other post, I am talking about long, sloping pasterns, and long fetlocks--two things I was always told were not desirable for an athlete to hold up to cross-country tests, but that also create that super fantastic moment of snappy suspension in an extravagant mover).

This has nothing to do with whether or not a given horse is part Holsteiner, or part Great Northern Cow, or whatever. However, I do think it has something to do with an increased desire for the (gorgeous) type of movement this horse exhibits.

I've never been close enough to Sparky to know anything about his legs, but in terms of discussing a larger issue, that fancest movers seem to often not be the soundest. I wonder if we have to a certain degree reached a tipping point with regards to the "fancy enough to win" but "sound enough to do the xc and finish sound" ratio.

I think some people will blame it on the WB influence, as those horses seem to be the type of mover I am discussing, however I have seen this confomation flaw (and it's correlating upside--flashy movement) in every breed out there. I think it has nothing to do with breed, but could have everything to do with type.

I also should add, that although I am founding member of the TB fan club, that my admittedly amateur research, has shown that WB's and part-WB's have been a force in the sport for a very, very long time (and I've ridden some Hanoverians and Trakehners in particular that I have adored). So, again, I would say we need to consider type and conformation, rather than breed.

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 4, 2007, 12:52 AM
I can't believe people are still Monday morning, but now a week later, quaterbacking this to death.
It was an accident, and maybe their was some bad judgement in place, but maybe not. End of story.
Eventing is a sport of true athletes, both horse and rider. Sometimes their are injuries.
I think only human athletes that are able to compete at a **** level should be commenting on this. Those of us who compete at much lower levels have no qualifications/expertise to be commenting on this...no matter how fantastic you think you are.
We can all poo-poo different disciplines of equestrian sports, but we're all just hoping for the best.
Now let's move on

Gnep
May. 4, 2007, 02:11 AM
I always find it interestin, how the WB against TB question comes up in the US.

I f one looks at Europe, including those people on that island ( they are not Europeans, by any means, they drink Tee and Guiness, yaiks, Tee with milk brrrrrrrrrr and luke warm guiness gag ), the WBs used in eventing are purpose bred, most of them come out of long lines of eventing horses.
I have jet to event an TB, I crawled onto a lot of TBs, galloped them, but honestly compared to a crossbred, they are boring.
And if one looks back, the dark old ages of glory in eventing, what was evented in Europe, cross breds, called WB and if you compare the endurance and galloping requierments of yesterday with today, you got your question answered.
For me the horse that made me was Fuego, Hessian ( one of those darn WB breeds) tall, lanky, stiff as hell, would beat the living sh.. out of you in dressage, would be today a dressage blamage, but jumped 6 feet 2 inces in a jump of and was able to gallop with ease and advanced long, very long at that time. and those breeding lines are the stock of todays WB Eventers.
Just because they are not used in the US, it does not mean that the rest of the eventing world has been using them, or bred superb WB eventers for a long time.
Eventing is only in the US, at the top level, a TB dominated sport.
Have a look at Aachen, and look at the deversety of breeds at that level, or check the world cup winning horses of the last years.

And in the end this is a basic description of this thread, look outside, past your horizon, there is a whole world out there.

The ROLEX is not a talking point for the rest of the Eventing World, besides the UK, nobody realy cares, its a side note, completly unimportant. I have jet to find even a mentioning about the Rolex in European publicashions.

So get real guys

Drvmb1ggl3
May. 4, 2007, 02:29 AM
Eventing is only in the US, at the top level, a TB dominated sport.



That's not even true in the US. Look at the Rolex breeding thread, only 1 horse in the top ten was a full blown American TB. Everything else was crossbred.

Part of the problem that helps this myth persevere is the strange habit many US eventers have of calling sport horses from Ireland and England, "Irish TBs" and "England TBs". It even happens to Australian and NZ horses... Just take a look at the COTHs list of Rolex entries, I must have counted over 15 erroneous entries where the horse was listed as a TB when it wasn't.

TBCollector
May. 4, 2007, 07:50 AM
Well, thank you for clearing that up. I was one of those who assumed the Rolex horses listed as such WERE 100 percent TB (and my assumption was based on assertions from a couple of upper level riders who, as it happens, ride TBs). It does make me so happy to see ex-racehorses such as Courageous Comet and Rampant Lion do so well. Shows the racing industry what these geldings can do if they aren't run into the ground.

vineyridge
May. 4, 2007, 11:13 AM
To my thinking, if the vast majority of event horses are more than 3/4 TB, then it's a TB dominated sport. Even the ISH people seem to agree that the best mix is 3/4 or more TB. Eventers may not have to be full TB, but they do have to have a high percentage of blood.

Drvmb1ggl3
May. 4, 2007, 11:24 AM
To my thinking, if the vast majority of event horses are more than 3/4 TB, then it's a TB dominated sport. Even the ISH people seem to agree that the best mix is 3/4 or more TB. Eventers may not have to be full TB, but they do have to have a high percentage of blood.

Tell us something we don't know. That's 40 year old information.

It's a sporthorse dominated sport, always has been.

LLDM
May. 4, 2007, 12:22 PM
New Statement on USEA News: http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=903


STATEMENT OF LE SAMURAI OWNERS JEROME AND REBECCA BROUSSARD CONCERNING AMY TRYON
Updated: May 3, 2007

Amy has our full support. She is a consummate horseman and would never purposely do anything that would harm her horses.

Jerome and Rebecca Broussard - Owners of Le Samurai

SCFarm

RugBug
May. 4, 2007, 01:03 PM
I think only human athletes that are able to compete at a **** level should be commenting on this. Those of us who compete at much lower levels have no qualifications/expertise to be commenting on this...no matter how fantastic you think you are.


So by using this logic, only people who have been president can comment on the current president's actions?

You sure you want to use that kind of logic?:lol:

Speedy
May. 4, 2007, 01:47 PM
I haven't read this whole thread, but the gist of it is clear. So, I am wondering, has anyone considered the effect of this on the Rolex sponsorship?

I really wish that you would close this down and allow the FEI to do its investigation. If you feel strongly enough to comment, do so privately by contacting the FEI. Commenting so negatively on the boards like this may drive one of the best (and probably the most visible) main stream sponsors we have away from the sport...and given how hard good sponsorship is to come by and how essential it is at the upper levels, you might find that this will have a bigger impact on eventing than you anticipated or intended.

buschkn
May. 4, 2007, 04:02 PM
I think it's interesting that the AT supporters keep jumping in and saying to stop talking about it, or shut down the thread, etc. The thread really isn't even about her anymore. People are discussing the sport itself, safety, conformation, injuries, breeding, etc. The zealots for the most part have petered out, and now people are just having a discussion.

I hardly think a discussion of sloping pasterns vs not, and TB vs cross, how to improve safety, etc has long term detrimental effects on the future of eventing. If you are that horrified by the thread, stop posting on it and bumping it to the top.

Galway
May. 4, 2007, 04:37 PM
I think Amy's decision if the direct result of two factors that are unique to eventing, especially Team eventing:

1. None of the spectators could yell to her to "pull up"- it is illegal.

2. As a US Team member, the importance of "finishing the course" is greater than it is in other disciplines.

I have evented, but more recently I have been involved in show jumping. I know that if that accident had occurred while I was jumping my horse in a show ring, zillions of people would have yelled to me to "pull up". I was yelling it as I watched the live simulcast. I have seen jumpers break bones in the ring (twice) and spectators on the sidelines had to yell to the riders to pull up. It is much easier to judge these issues from the ground than it is from the riders perspective. From a ridr's perspective, many horses feel crippled when they throw a shoe, and I believe Amy thought that was the case.

I think anyone can look at the advanced ages of Amy's event horses and know that she cares for her mounts. I have heard her give a lecture on caring for event horses, and she exudes love for her horses. I think the event world should reconsider its rules about comments from spectators, especially with regard to safety issues.

Janet
May. 4, 2007, 05:17 PM
But Rolex is NOT a team competition.

Fence2Fence
May. 4, 2007, 05:47 PM
And one or two COTH members who witnessed the accident posted that they and others were yelling at her to stop...posted on one of the other numerous topics of this subject.

No matter how much you yell at the monitor, the folks inside just aren't going to hear you.

That's what my cubicle mate keeps telling me anyway. Thought I'd pass that along. :)

Lynnwood
May. 4, 2007, 06:12 PM
So since this threads origin was about the horse and his injury does anyone know how he is at this point it has been a week?

wlrottge
May. 4, 2007, 06:38 PM
The ROLEX is not a talking point for the rest of the Eventing World, besides the UK, nobody realy cares, its a side note, completly unimportant. I have jet to find even a mentioning about the Rolex in European publicashions.

So get real guys

So, are you calling it a minor event in the eventing world????

TB or not TB?
May. 4, 2007, 08:36 PM
1. None of the spectators could yell to her to "pull up"- it is illegal.

One note on this - even if it had been legal to yell things like this, she might not have heard. I know when I go XC I am so focused that I am oblivious to the crowd. I recall that at one competition when I went over the jumps that were close to the crowds, a bunch of friends were cheering for me and I didn't hear a THING. They later asked if I remembered them cheering because I guess they all made quite a ruckus, but I didn't hear any of it. :yes:

Tiligsmom
May. 4, 2007, 09:05 PM
I just watched the video from NBC Sports Media Zone.

Please, folks, the horse was dead lame before the jump. No excuse for Amy not to pull him up. She's a seasoned equestrian. The incident wasn't subtle at all... A rank beginner could have felt it.

Bad judgment fueled by ambition and adrenaline. Horse lost out. This isn't to say that he could have been saved or that Amy caused the injury.

She definitely didn't help him by pushing him over another jump and galloping to the end. This isn't horsemanship or sportsmanship.

TBCollector
May. 4, 2007, 09:31 PM
Thank you for putting it succinctly and accurately.
I've been trying to get into the rider's head since I saw it happen. Is is possible that, like horses, the riders are so pumped at that point on the course that they are oblivious to anything other than the jump in front of them?
I am speaking as a rank novice rider, and would really like some insight from those who have been there. Above novice, that is.

Seven
May. 4, 2007, 09:55 PM
So since this threads origin was about the horse and his injury does anyone know how he is at this point it has been a week?

From another thread: :(

For Immediate Release May 4, 2007
Statement from the Broussard Family, Owners of Le Samurai

It is with tremendous sadness that we announce that Le Samurai has been humanely euthanized. From the outset we have been determined to give this magnificent horse the best veterinary treatment available, but only so long as the continuation of that treatment remained consistent with Sparky's best interests. Regrettably, the veterinarians treating him have advised us that a successful outcome is not possible.

Sparky will be greatly missed by our family, Amy Tryon and everyone who knew and loved him. We wish to express our heartfelt thanks to Dr. Hunt and the veterinary staff at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute for their tireless dedication to Sparky's well-being. We also wish to thank the eventing community around the country for all the kindness and good wishes that have been extended to us and to Sparky.

Jerome and Rebecca Broussard

Lynnwood
May. 4, 2007, 10:47 PM
Poor Sparky...another light extinguised far too soon

arnika
May. 4, 2007, 10:49 PM
TBCollector, I won't say it's impossible for a rider to become oblivious to outside stimuli but an experienced upper level should be aware of their mount at all times. In the video you can clearly see Amy look down at LS several times while she is trying to hold him up and move him along before the jump.

Sannois
May. 4, 2007, 10:54 PM
released anywhere exactly what his injuries were? Will there be an official release now that he has been put down. Will this effect the FEI ruling at all?? Dont jump on me I am asking legit questions.

LLDM
May. 4, 2007, 11:31 PM
There are simply no words. I had really hoped against hope for him.

Sparky, you were one hell of a horse.

SCFarm

TBCollector
May. 4, 2007, 11:41 PM
I knew Sparky very well before Amy started riding him. It's common knowledge that he had some soundness issues including an old bow. I hope no one jumps on ME for bringing it up, but, it's the truth.
I have been trying not to be too hard on the rider simply because I have no experience riding at that level (and never will). But...I no longer believe it's necessary to have riding experience of ANY kind. The video speaks for itself. I am so heartbroken over this sad but not unexpected development...
Sparky was a big, strong, heavy-boned horse. And he was going damned fast on Saturday. Racehorse fast. That speed, combined with the fatigue he was clearly showing in the late stages, was likely his undoing.

Petalstorm
May. 4, 2007, 11:50 PM
I have read every post on this thread and have read all the other threads related to this situation as well.

I have watched the video many times.

Until just now, after reading that the horse has been put down I didn't know what I wanted to say.

Now I do. I wish I could ask,

Amy,

It was SO flipping OBVIOUS that the horse was BROKEN!!!!!

What a shame, for both you and this wonderful horse, the path that your life was on will forever be changed because of this event.

It's like NEVER drive a car without your kids strapped in the carseat, NEVER shake a baby, NEVER keep going when your horse is hurt!!!!

What was going through your mind?


The best way to honor this horse and this sad situation is to do our own horses the favor of pulling them up no matter what if we feel they are in trouble underneath us and let them live to run another day.

Sannois
May. 5, 2007, 12:06 AM
released anywhere exactly what his injuries were? Will there be an official release now that he has been put down. Will this effect the FEI ruling at all?? Dont jump on me I am asking legit questions.

if anyone knows? :confused:

LaBonnieBon
May. 5, 2007, 12:23 AM
I have not read every single post on this thread, but have been reading them as I've had time this week. This may have been brought up before, but I think it's very odd that Barbaro's jockey could feel the injury and pull him up immedieatly even though he was with a group of galloping horses .... yet Amy could not tell that Le Samuri was injured and did not have time to pull up before the next jump. I'm pretty sure Barbaro was pulled up in less space than Le Samuri had from injury to the jump.

It's just what is going through my mind.......

vineyridge
May. 5, 2007, 12:43 AM
I've got a pretty good second hand in my head. Today as I was driving on an empty highway going 55 mph, I was timing myself. Y'all, 30 seconds is a damn long period of time, especially when you're concentrating. Try it.

It may sound fast, but when you're counting it off, it really isn't. The perception of time is so individual, but think how it expands when you're in an accident.

Just a comment, based on getting really bored driving before the thirty seconds was up.

Samotis
May. 5, 2007, 12:43 AM
Ok, most of us agree that she made a mistake. An awful mistake. She will have to live with what she did. The horse is now in heaven and hopefully did not suffer while at the vet clinic. Goodbye Le Samuri, rest in peace.

I would like to know what kind of tendon injury he had that was so bad it could not be repaired?

Please, if anyone knows what his actual injuries were, inquiring minds would like to know!:sadsmile:

vineyridge
May. 5, 2007, 12:47 AM
If the information about the injuries doesn't/hasn't come out, it's probably because the "connections" are afraid it will affect the FEI investigation--and cause an even greater worldwide outcry. JMHO.

luckofthedraw
May. 5, 2007, 12:47 AM
Rest in peace Sparky.

Amy...thoughts and prayers are with you and all your crew. In my mind you are and will always be one of the best horsemen i've ever met. Just know that it's easy for someone to point the finger when they weren't in your boots that day. Can't even imagine what you're going through, stay the strong person that you are and keep your chin up.

-----------------
All those who are bashing...give it up. None of your critisism will change what happened, nor will it be any benefit. My heart breaks for Amy.

Sannois
May. 5, 2007, 01:38 AM
I must be using unvisible Type, LOL Is there a report as to what his injuries were and could it effect the final decision of the FEI???

silver2
May. 5, 2007, 03:51 AM
It's common knowledge that he had some soundness issues including an old bow.
I am NOT casting blame here but I do think that there is a strong case for more research into the risk of continuing to compete horses with old injuries in galloping type sports like racing and eventing. As a rider or owner that is a super tough call to make and imho anything that could help one out would be worthwhile.

Again, I am not casting blame, I am simply an owner who had a horse suffer a serious suspensory injury after I rehabbed it from a minor tear, despite the vets at the university, a pro rehabber, my chiro etc telling me she was perfectly fine to go back to work. Not a rare story by any means.

Madeline
May. 5, 2007, 04:38 AM
Ok, most of us agree that she made a mistake. An awful mistake. She will have to live with what she did. The horse is now in heaven and hopefully did not suffer while at the vet clinic. Goodbye Le Samuri, rest in peace.

I would like to know what kind of tendon injury he had that was so bad it could not be repaired?

Please, if anyone knows what his actual injuries were, inquiring minds would like to know!:sadsmile:

I believe that the phrase used was " lost the suspensory apparatus" or something close. That sounds to me like all the ligaments...

Sannois
May. 5, 2007, 07:32 AM
I believe that the phrase used was " lost the suspensory apparatus" or something close. That sounds to me like all the ligaments...

I asked this questioin, That above statement is from the Vet on the grounds I believe. Was a report of his injuries ever made from the Clinic? :confused:

monstrpony
May. 5, 2007, 09:10 AM
Sannois, I don't believe any comprehensive report has been released yet. I suspect everyone involved has been told to clear any releases with those investigating to make sure that the investigators get undiluted information first, and to make sure that inappropriate influence doesn't occur. Let them do their jobs; we'll find out soon enough, I'm sure.

This is just so, so sad.

My own suspicion is that the horse was genuinely tiring at the end of xc, and that there were other bobbles before. I didn't see her ride other than the purloined clip that was on youtube, but all reports are that he was flying, quite nicely, but faster than necessary. I suspect that what AT thought she was feeling toward the end of the course was a genuinely tired horse, but she made the judgement to nurse him to the end, because there is the probability that a tired horse would recover enough to complete the event (remember Might Tango?). This is what I suspect was in her mind, and she just incorrectly assessed the changes in the situation near the end. I don't think it was really dawning on her how bad it was until those last few strides and trot steps, and when she jumped off the horse. A tragic mistake, as I'm sure she knows better than anyone else at this point.

I will confess that my feelings about the sport of eventing are shattered now. Even my "suspicion" is a generous interpretation of the events; fatigue is a good enough reason to stop. It should have been okay to admit that she'd figured out how to ride him happily, but not how to make him save himself for the whole effort. I will get burned for saying this, but I think the culture at the top of the sport is as much to blame as anything for this episode. As good as the horsemen are at that level, they have, by definition, a bit of a blind spot about how much they are asking of these noble animals.

Sannois
May. 5, 2007, 10:38 AM
Sannois, I don't believe any comprehensive report has been released yet. I suspect everyone involved has been told to clear any releases with those investigating to make sure that the investigators get undiluted information first, and to make sure that inappropriate influence doesn't occur. Let them do their jobs; we'll find out soon enough, I'm sure.

This is just so, so sad.

My own suspicion is that the horse was genuinely tiring at the end of xc, and that there were other bobbles before. I didn't see her ride other than the purloined clip that was on youtube, but all reports are that he was flying, quite nicely, but faster than necessary. I suspect that what AT thought she was feeling toward the end of the course was a genuinely tired horse, but she made the judgement to nurse him to the end, because there is the probability that a tired horse would recover enough to complete the event (remember Might Tango?). This is what I suspect was in her mind, and she just incorrectly assessed the changes in the situation near the end. I don't think it was really dawning on her how bad it was until those last few strides and trot steps, and when she jumped off the horse. A tragic mistake, as I'm sure she knows better than anyone else at this point.

I will confess that my feelings about the sport of eventing are shattered now. Even my "suspicion" is a generous interpretation of the events; fatigue is a good enough reason to stop. It should have been okay to admit that she'd figured out how to ride him happily, but not how to make him save himself for the whole effort. I will get burned for saying this, but I think the culture at the top of the sport is as much to blame as anything for this episode. As good as the horsemen are at that level, they have, by definition, a bit of a blind spot about how much they are asking of these noble animals.
It will all come out in the Wash I am afraid.
And I am kind of with you on the sport. This will I fear be a big shadow over it. I am afraid the old guys of eventing are long gone. I have very mixed feeling, well in fact since they went to the short format and changed the sport I have lost alot of respect for it. IT truly is a sad thing.
I wonder how the old timers are feeling about this?
OK people leave me alone no flaming, Kay??
:no:

Tiligsmom
May. 5, 2007, 11:59 AM
Rest in peace Sparky.

-----------------
All those who are bashing...give it up. None of your critisism will change what happened, nor will it be any benefit.


I agree this is sad. But I don't agree that there is no benefit from the criticism. With fame and public accomplishment comes a high level of responsibility. Because of her public visibility, it is even more important that she demonstrate the highest standards of horsemanship. She did not demonstrate this. You can't selectively decide which side of celebrity you want - the accolades or the criticism - it's part of being a public figure.

The scrutiny will hopefully lead to a change in policy and/or behavior on the parts of very ambitious international horseman. Even if that change is influenced via the court of public opinion vs. the FEI.

Amy is a steely, driven, focused competitor. Competing at the top end of any sport requires these attributes to overcome the pain, frustration and obstacles to winning at the top. While these attributes are necessary, they can also lead to blind spots. We just witnessed, very publicly, how ambition and steely determination can lead to very poor judgement. What makes her mistake more aggregious, is that her choices inflicted unnecessary pain on a beautiful, and obedient partner - LS.

Her horse didn't have a choice. She did.

TBCollector
May. 5, 2007, 12:18 PM
I have not read every single post on this thread, but have been reading them as I've had time this week. This may have been brought up before, but I think it's very odd that Barbaro's jockey could feel the injury and pull him up immedieatly even though he was with a group of galloping horses .... yet Amy could not tell that Le Samuri was injured and did not have time to pull up before the next jump. I'm pretty sure Barbaro was pulled up in less space than Le Samuri had from injury to the jump.

It's just what is going through my mind.......

That is an EXCELLENT point. Went through my mind as well.

fourhorses
May. 5, 2007, 12:19 PM
I too wonder what other injuries besides losing "the supporting function"(if any, and then just how bad were the injuries to the support mechanisms of the leg?) LS incurred, and if they were there from the outset or were from running on farther.
I have to admit, after watching the entire run I believe not only errors in judgement vis a vis pressing on, but also errors in judging how much horse would be left at the end were made. The horse was running out of gas, imho, and when atheletes get fatigued, then try to press on, they oftentimes have these sorts of injuries. Yes, I did run parallels in my head of this incident to the one involving Bruce Davidson and Might Tango -- well, what he did was hardly right or just either, and Might Tango it could be argued, paid a price on that day too.
Plus this new bit of antecdotal info, that he had a history of soundness issues, if it proves out to be true (and that is a very big IF), then it does raise the question why Sparky was even there in the first place, or at the very least why he was allowed to run so hard at the beginning.
I feel very awful for the horse, who was by all appearances, an absolutely smashing creature with the bravest of hearts. I hope something is learned by this awful event by all concerned -- including our governing bodies.
The short format has rather "gutted" the 3-day, but there were other things that might have insured the safety of the horses and riders that I don't think were addressed as stringently as they could have been.

ptownevt
May. 5, 2007, 01:06 PM
I remember several years ago talking with an international dressage competitor about why she left eventing and concentrated on dressage. She said that she was so intensely competitive that she was afraid if she continued eventing that she would seriously injure or kill a horse. She said that when she was on course, her entire focus was fixated on completing the course and that she was afraid if she needed to make a decision to pull up that she wouldn't in her fixation on finishing.
Pam

ShowjumpersUSA
May. 5, 2007, 01:07 PM
That is an EXCELLENT point. Went through my mind as well.

Ditto

And don't forget about Chris Kappler on Royal Kaliber ... in the jumpoff!

When these riders jumped off at the first sign of trouble, they became heros of the sporthorse world. Had they done anything less, they wouldn't be so well thought of today.

LLDM
May. 5, 2007, 01:27 PM
Ditto

And don't forget about Chris Kappler on Royal Kaliber ... in the jumpoff!

When these riders jumped off at the first sign of trouble, they became heros of the sporthorse world. Had they done anything less, they wouldn't be so well thought of today.

I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately it didn't save Royal Kaliber - although he likely died of complications to the complications (colic during recovery and adhesions from the colic & surgery) of the injury in Athens.

Now we've lost two more at Badminton. I'm starting to have a tough go og this.

SCFarm

arnika
May. 5, 2007, 01:33 PM
True, it didn't save Royal Kaliber but Chris Kappler didn't receive the criticism that Amy has and I think it has to do with their individual reactions to their horses injuries.

TBCollector
May. 5, 2007, 03:10 PM
I didn't see Amy after she got off Sparky, and we were right there by him pretty soon after they finished. I do know she went with him in the van to Hagyard, so I don't know that anyone can accurately gauge her "reaction," as it were. When we first got to the horse they had the tarp up and he was behind it. In retrospect, I wonder if the equine vet crew took a look at his injury and pronounced it catastrophic right then and there? Having seen it so many times on the racetrack, it seemed to me that all indictions and steps taken by veterinary persononnel were to prepare for his euthanization right there.

Ja Da Dee
May. 5, 2007, 03:34 PM
Now we've lost two more at Badminton. I'm starting to have a tough go og this.

SCFarm


I have to say that the one hitting the flag is just rotten luck, something like that could as easily happen in a pasture accident. The other horse sounds like it had a heart attack. I can't say if that was course related or not.

It's very sad to loose any of them though.

LLDM
May. 5, 2007, 07:58 PM
I have to say that the one hitting the flag is just rotten luck, something like that could as easily happen in a pasture accident. The other horse sounds like it had a heart attack. I can't say if that was course related or not.

It's very sad to loose any of them though.

Yes, hitting the flag was indeed rotten luck for Icard. Skwal may not be so straight forward. It is said that he fell at/into a ditch on course and smacked his head pretty hard on the ground - but they continued on to finish. I don't think we will know the details about that for a while.

SCFarm

arnika
May. 5, 2007, 08:05 PM
To TBCollector; just to be clear, I was referring to the different responses of CK and AT to their horses' breakdowns, Chris pulling up and Amy kicking on to the finish, not any emotional reactions.

Debbie
May. 5, 2007, 08:55 PM
In my, admittedly limited, experience helping out with the vet staff (same staff as that at Rolex) the screens go up quickly as a matter of course. It doesn't necessarily signal the severity of the injury. It's a precaution that allows the vet staff to work quickly and limit distractions as well as provide privacy.

The vet staff at that level is a well oiled machine that has a plan for every section of the course and a team ready to jump immediately on any injury. It's a side of our sport that is both reassuring in its preparation and professionalism and sobering in its necessity.

Anyone who is just realizing the risk to an upper level event horse/rider and questioning their attachment to or participation in the sport is either naive or willfully obtuse. While you can't overstate the responsibility of the rider to the safety of their horse, you also can't overstate the willingness and eagerness with which a successful upper level horse attacks a cross country question.

I think Denny's thread on safety brought up some legitimate concerns over the increasing difficulty of those questions, but cross country is inherently dangerous whether it's the long or short format or with a TB or WB-cross. That's what makes the sport; it's the heart of it. It asks for the heart of a lion and rewards courage and commitment.

We wouldn't be good horsemen if we didn't wring our hands and question ourselves after the events of the last week, but we wouldn't be eventers if we didn't explore those questions, answer them to the best of our ability with our horses' safety as our priority, and then tack up and go cross country.

wabadou
May. 5, 2007, 08:57 PM
This is so sad. I had a feeling that it was worse than they were letting on.

If you watch the NBC video, over the last part of the course there were several jumps that she obviously felt he was not "forward" enough over as she popped him with her bat, 2 or 3 times after the jumps hard enough for him to whip his tail and lay his ears back, but still surge forward each time.
On that final long stretch up the hill, she whipped him once as they were passing some trees, it's a bit difficult to see unless you rewind it but you can see it and see him whip his tail and lay his ears back and surge forward as she puts her hand back on the reins.
It's so much more than a "bobble" too close to the fence to stop.
Watch them after the first half and see how many times she goes to the whip after fences and again on the first part of that last run up the hill where he lost the function of that leg.
I don't argue at all that she's always been a great representative for the sport, loving of her horses and a nice person.
The horse was tiring long before the last fence and he was run into the ground. We all make mistakes when faced with split second decisions. This tragedy was not due to a mistake involving a "split second decision".
This wasn't a team decision either.
His difficulties started way before the last fence. He responded each time she popped him and urged him by giving more. In the end he just had nothing left.
If you have doubts, watch the video.
Say what you want in defense, I'm not a newbie or inexperienced but it doesn't take 4* experience to see what is in front of your eyes on that video.
He was run into the ground. Literally.

RIP Sparky.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 5, 2007, 11:01 PM
This is so sad. I had a feeling that it was worse than they were letting on.

If you watch the NBC video, over the last part of the course there were several jumps that she obviously felt he was not "forward" enough over as she popped him with her bat, 2 or 3 times after the jumps hard enough for him to whip his tail and lay his ears back, but still surge forward each time.
On that final long stretch up the hill, she whipped him once as they were passing some trees, it's a bit difficult to see unless you rewind it but you can see it and see him whip his tail and lay his ears back and surge forward as she puts her hand back on the reins.
It's so much more than a "bobble" too close to the fence to stop.
Watch them after the first half and see how many times she goes to the whip after fences and again on the first part of that last run up the hill where he lost the function of that leg.
I don't argue at all that she's always been a great representative for the sport, loving of her horses and a nice person.
The horse was tiring long before the last fence and he was run into the ground. We all make mistakes when faced with split second decisions. This tragedy was not due to a mistake involving a "split second decision".
This wasn't a team decision either.
His difficulties started way before the last fence. He responded each time she popped him and urged him by giving more. In the end he just had nothing left.
If you have doubts, watch the video.
Say what you want in defense, I'm not a newbie or inexperienced but it doesn't take 4* experience to see what is in front of your eyes on that video.
He was run into the ground. Literally.

RIP Sparky.

Apparently Sparky is difficult to ride, somewhat "bullish" as I heard from someone else, and that was the cause of the whipping. I heard that it's not unnormal for that to occur on him.

Janet
May. 5, 2007, 11:12 PM
but I think it's very odd that Barbaro's jockey could feel the injury and pull him up immedieatly even though he was with a group of galloping horses .... yet Amy could not tell that Le Samuri was injured and did not have time to pull up before the next jump. Please read RAyers earlier post- a ligament injury does NOT typically cause significant pain. certainly not the way a bone does. So it is a lot harder for the rider to "feel".

buschkn
May. 5, 2007, 11:27 PM
It may be significantly different in horses, but as an MD, I can tell you that in humans, ligamentous injuries can be extremely painful. Ever sprained your ankle? That is a ligament injury. Ever badly sprained your ankle and not had it hurt? Didn't think so. People often have as much or more pain with a sprain than a fracture in my experience. And I would say that based on the video it does not appear, at least to me, that Sparky had no pain and no symptoms.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 5, 2007, 11:39 PM
so, I'm going to take another risk here and point something out about this thread.

Does anyone else realize that out of the 600+ comments on this topic

31 came from Sannois
30 came from Snoopy
28 cam from LLDm
23 came flintus (the same Flintus as H&H?...nice)
15 came from Janet
13 came from JAGold
12 came from one star or bust at Aefvue Farms South
11 from buschkn
10 from RugBut
9 from vineyridge

And then there is the rest of us (sorry if you were not named individually)

Perhaps it is time to give everyone involved a break.

Sympathies to the Broussards, a very difficult time for Amy, Sparky, one hell of a horse.

LaBonnieBon
May. 5, 2007, 11:45 PM
Please read RAyers earlier post- a ligament injury does NOT typically cause significant pain. certainly not the way a bone does. So it is a lot harder for the rider to "feel".

So if a ligament injury does not cause pain, why did the horse try to break stride and why was his head bobbing up and down at the CANTER?

And why is a horse I have here that has a ligament problem limping?

It may not be as painful as a bone break, but I think LS showed us by his actions that he was in a great deal of pain. Think of the adrenaline going through his body at this point... I'm sure it hurt like he!!.

Call me a freak of nature but I was schooling my horse at a show and felt something odd. I ask my trainer to watch. Horse is the only ever so slightly off. So, I get the vet to come out and turns out she popped the smallest splint. So small that the vet had to hold the leg up and move his fingers back and forth to even feel it. Even when he tried to get me to feel it, I was not able. Now, how could I feel that yet AT could not feel a ligament injury that was much worse than my horse's injury?

Oh, maybe it's all because I'm Olympic Gold Medal material or perpaps I'm the next Joe Fargis....:lol: ....NOT! It's because I put my horses wellbeing first.

shea'smom
May. 6, 2007, 12:02 AM
Well, I am not sure why exactly, but last night after reading about Le Samuri, I made a phone call and today I adopted a 30 year old mare. I just wanted to do something uplifting, I guess.
So in honor of you, Sparky. :sigh:

2Dogs
May. 6, 2007, 12:34 AM
When do we get back to a Universe where it is okay to say we *&^%$# UP?
We will never know if the first bobble was the bobble that did Sparky in -the continued ride over the last jump told me this was one brave horse. Rider? save me from my opinion. The new world order let's us see everything courtesy of Youtube et al, so the question remains forever (as a haunt to this tradegy) : if she had JUST PULLED UP would the outcome have been different.

Never know. Is AT suffering - I bet yes!!

so sorry for the outcome for horse, owner AND rider.

arnika
May. 6, 2007, 01:24 PM
Please read RAyers earlier post- a ligament injury does NOT typically cause significant pain. certainly not the way a bone does. So it is a lot harder for the rider to "feel".

I truly was not going to post anymore on this thread as I felt I had said all I had to say but I could not let this statement go without my reply.

As said earlier, if you have ever sprained your ankle you know what type of pain is involved. I quite often agree with RAyers' opinions yet this time he is just wrong. I'm sure most of us have seen NFL and NBA players take a bad step or hit, go down on the floor instantly and roll back and forth in pain then proceed to be helped off the floor as they can't bear weight on the leg involved. Usually they end up being a torn ligament in the knee or ankle and it is blatantly obvious that the pain is excrutiating. Having treated a few, I know from the patients' statements that this is true as well. Horse anatomy is different to some extent but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that they have no pain receptors. Strictly as a survival mechanism if nothing else.

Paks
May. 6, 2007, 01:33 PM
So if a ligament injury does not cause pain, why did the horse try to break stride and why was his head bobbing up and down at the CANTER?

And why is a horse I have here that has a ligament problem limping?

It may not be as painful as a bone break, but I think LS showed us by his actions that he was in a great deal of pain. Think of the adrenaline going through his body at this point... I'm sure it hurt like he!!.

Call me a freak of nature but I was schooling my horse at a show and felt something odd. I ask my trainer to watch. Horse is the only ever so slightly off. So, I get the vet to come out and turns out she popped the smallest splint. So small that the vet had to hold the leg up and move his fingers back and forth to even feel it. Even when he tried to get me to feel it, I was not able. Now, how could I feel that yet AT could not feel a ligament injury that was much worse than my horse's injury?

Oh, maybe it's all because I'm Olympic Gold Medal material or perpaps I'm the next Joe Fargis....:lol: ....NOT! It's because I put my horses wellbeing first.

I second that and will add a personal experience to further illustrate it. I had a fall. Landed on my shoulder. It hurt like h*ll. We later found out I had a first degree seperation of the acrimnal clavical ligament. Since the ER Doc did properly read the X-rays he though it was just bruised and told me to use it as much as possible so it doesn't heal stiff. I did and it hurt when I did but well when the Navy tells you do do something you do. That turned my first degree separation (which could have healed with rest into a 3rd degree which required surgery.

Those who say the damage was already done when the horse first went lame may very well be wrong we will never know. But he might have had a chance just like I may have had a chance if I hadn't been driven to work through the pain.

vineyridge
May. 6, 2007, 01:55 PM
All I can say is that anyone who has tried to live with a ruptured ACL knows how painful it can be when the joint slips. I tried it for three years, and every time my knee would collapse I'd writhe in pain. It's the most intense, short term pain I've ever experienced.

JAGold
May. 6, 2007, 02:01 PM
My younger sister was an elite gymnast for many years. She never hurt her achilles tendon, but several of her teammates did. Those with partial tears found it very painful; those with complete ruptures said that it felt strange or uncomfortable, but not really that painful. They said that the moment of the actual injury felt like they'd fallen through the floor -- that everything had just given way -- but not intensely painful. Based on their reports and RAyer's explanations, I'm guessing that there is a difference in partial tears and complete tears? --Jess

His Greyness
May. 6, 2007, 02:08 PM
so, I'm going to take another risk here and point something out about this thread.

Does anyone else realize that out of the 600+ comments on this topic

31 came from Sannois
30 came from Snoopy
28 cam from LLDm
23 came flintus (the same Flintus as H&H?...nice)
15 came from Janet
13 came from JAGold
12 came from one star or bust at Aefvue Farms South
11 from buschkn
10 from RugBut
9 from vineyridge

And then there is the rest of us (sorry if you were not named individually)

Perhaps it is time to give everyone involved a break.

Sympathies to the Broussards, a very difficult time for Amy, Sparky, one hell of a horse.

As a long time reader and occasional contributor to COTH bulletin boards, it's appears to me that, for whatever reason, some people are obsessive over some issues. Flintus has 68 postings on this subject on the H&H bulletin board in addition to those here.

How do you end a conversation in which each party has to have the last word?

arnika
May. 6, 2007, 02:18 PM
JAGold, Reed was right in one thing he said earlier, tendons and ligaments are two completely different types of tissue. Both connective but made of different components and having different purposes. Injuries to tendons will feel different than injuries to ligaments. Ligaments attach bone to bone, complete dettachment causes instability in the joint(s) affected allowing bone on bone movement that normally would not occur.

Edited to add: Sorry to His Greyness and sofiethewonderhorse for my continued comments on this thread. Guess I'm just going to have to be added to her list. And no, I don't have OCD, just don't like to see blatantly wrong info posted.

Sannois
May. 6, 2007, 02:44 PM
took the time to sort out and count all the folks posts is humerous to me... OOPS Thats 32!:eek: ;)

LLDM
May. 6, 2007, 03:21 PM
I guess some of us still think this conversation has merit. Make mine "29".

Debbie, this is a great post. And I think this thread is largely the "hand-wringing" and "questioning" side of it. I think we can do better, but we have to talk about and we have to get a handle on the problems before we can solve them or find better answers.

Here are a couple of issues that I've come up with upon pondering this whole incident:

1. Do upper level riders have too much pressure on them?
2. Have we adequate addressed the "when to kick on versus when to pull up" questions at all levels?
3. Have we found the right balance yet between speed and technical difficulty for the short format?
4. Do we need to add something back to the beginning of XC that will allow the reasonable return of the 10 minute box?
5. Do we need a mechanism in place to stop riders on course to assess fatigue, lameness and/or injury before allowing them to continue on (with time removed if they pass the vet at the end)?

I think I will take this over to the "what to do" thread.


<snip>
Anyone who is just realizing the risk to an upper level event horse/rider and questioning their attachment to or participation in the sport is either naive or willfully obtuse. While you can't overstate the responsibility of the rider to the safety of their horse, you also can't overstate the willingness and eagerness with which a successful upper level horse attacks a cross country question.

I think Denny's thread on safety brought up some legitimate concerns over the increasing difficulty of those questions, but cross country is inherently dangerous whether it's the long or short format or with a TB or WB-cross. That's what makes the sport; it's the heart of it. It asks for the heart of a lion and rewards courage and commitment.

We wouldn't be good horsemen if we didn't wring our hands and question ourselves after the events of the last week, but we wouldn't be eventers if we didn't explore those questions, answer them to the best of our ability with our horses' safety as our priority, and then tack up and go cross country.

SCFarm

buschkn
May. 6, 2007, 03:22 PM
took the time to sort out and count all the folks posts is humerous to me... OOPS Thats 32!:eek: ;)

I thought the same thing! Yeah, chalk up another for me!

Paks
May. 6, 2007, 05:46 PM
My younger sister was an elite gymnast for many years. She never hurt her achilles tendon, but several of her teammates did. Those with partial tears found it very painful; those with complete ruptures said that it felt strange or uncomfortable, but not really that painful. They said that the moment of the actual injury felt like they'd fallen through the floor -- that everything had just given way -- but not intensely painful. Based on their reports and RAyer's explanations, I'm guessing that there is a difference in partial tears and complete tears? --Jess

There may be but I do know when an NFL player blows his ACL he is usualy on the ground writhing in pain. Also understand when a ligament goes the other ligaments and tendons are suddenly exposed to new strains and that definately hurts.

Though sometime in a tramatic injury the mind will shut down to pain and nothing is felt that is why I tried 3 times to stand on a broken leg before I quit trying.

bird4416
May. 6, 2007, 05:56 PM
Having completely torn my ACL and had 2 broken bones (all three in separate incidences). I can say that after both broken bones (one a broken ankle and one a broken tibia or shin bone)I continued to ride immediately after the injuries. (I'm kinda of stupid that way) It hurt but I could still function. After the ACL tear, I went straight to bed until I could get to the doctor. Ligament injuries do hurt. Very much.

JAGold
May. 6, 2007, 06:00 PM
There may be but I do know when an NFL player blows his ACL he is usualy on the ground writhing in pain.
Yes -- gymnasts also. As someone else pointed out, ACL is a ligament, Achilles is a tendon. It's not clear to me which Le Samuri damaged. --Jess

TBCollector
May. 6, 2007, 06:00 PM
I'm (obviously) a newbie to this board and should have introduced myself without jumping into the fray on this issue. But my emotions got the best of me...
I just wanted to applaude everyone who has kept the discussion going. It is a HUGE issue and every side should be debated. I'm really impressed with how knowledgeable everyone is about the sport and horses in general. Please, keep the dialogue open, everyone.

bird4416
May. 6, 2007, 06:16 PM
Yes -- gymnasts also. As someone else pointed out, ACL is a ligament, Achilles is a tendon. It's not clear to me which Le Samuri damaged. --Jess

Below is the quote from the Rolex veterinarian. Le Samurai sustained ligament damage

Statement given by Rolex veterinarian, Dr. Catherine W. Kohn V.M.D., "Le Samurai had experienced an injury, and it appears that he lost the supporting ligaments in his left front leg. He was given a mild sedative to keep him comfortable, and he’s being treated at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute."

Jaegermonster
May. 6, 2007, 06:21 PM
Well, I am sitting here enjoying the NBC Coverage (Thanks NBC!) and they just showed AT and Le Samurai preparing to enter the start box.
Knowing the outcome of this, I felt sick seeing that beautiful animal. I wonder if they will show the ending.
Godspeed Sparky.

mcm7780
May. 6, 2007, 06:22 PM
Well, I am sitting here enjoying the NBC Coverage (Thanks NBC!) and they just showed AT and Le Samurai preparing to enter the start box.
Knowing the outcome of this, I felt sick seeing that beautiful animal. I wonder if they will show the ending.
Godspeed Sparky.

I keep wondering the same thing...

editted to add...
They did.

Jaegermonster
May. 6, 2007, 06:31 PM
Oh God they showed it. I"m glad they did, and they gave AT and Sparky a lot of coverage. It was hard to watch but I think it was appropriate to give Sparky the respect he deserves, as the leader and also due to what happened at the end.
Oh man, I'm sick.

blue&blond
May. 6, 2007, 06:36 PM
Yes, but NBC didn't show the second to last jump and the long gallop before the last jump that has caused so much controversy.

It's all very sad.

OneonOne
May. 6, 2007, 06:38 PM
I'm confused. I did not see the original Youtube footage that was pulled. I was just watching the NBC coverage, and they showed the final fence, but I didn't see the actual injury occur on the approach. Did I just miss it, or did they not show the footage of the actual stumble/bad step or whatever it was?

Edited: I missed b&b's post. So they didn't show the controversial portion.

Jaegermonster
May. 6, 2007, 06:40 PM
No they didn't show the worst part. I didn't see the Youtube thing, and I also didn't buy the feed. I'm sure not giong to buy it just to see the Le Samurai video, I would feel like a ghoul.
I'm curious if the FEI asked them not to show it, and so they didn't show anyone approaching the last jump.

arnika
May. 6, 2007, 06:41 PM
No, they didn't show the actual breakdown injury or the 24 strides prior to the last jump. They also made sure to play the section where the announcer says he is going to be fine, just not compete again. :rolleyes:

snoopy
May. 6, 2007, 06:42 PM
No, they didn't show the actual breakdown injury or the 24 strides prior to the last jump. They also made sure to play the section where the announcer says he is going to be fine, just not compete again. :rolleyes:

This is probably due to the fact the full extent of the injury was not yet known...

arnika
May. 6, 2007, 06:46 PM
I would have thought that too except that it was announced on stadium day and by then there had already been the news that his injury was very severe.

Giving NBC the benefit of the doubt perhaps the FEI/owners did all they could to keep a lid on his diagnosis/outcome until the crowds were gone and coverage was finished.

Jealoushe
May. 6, 2007, 06:46 PM
Having just seen the video on NBC, I can easily say the horse was showing signs of something wrong half way around the course. Fence 12, 16, and 18 were extremely awkward fences, the horse anticipating something painful perhaps? The commentator I believe even stated that "that jump was rather SKETCHY". As a rider, an avid eventer, I can assure you that you know when your horse is not jumping as usual, and after one bad fence you continue to think about it, after THREE fences, most riders are definitly wondering what is up with their horses. There was more than enough time to pull up, or trot a few steps and checkif something was wrong. After the horse landed and was 3 legged lame, the rider kicked and continued to push on, she didnt pull up until after she was through the flags. Im very upset, and I can see every one here is too. Simply because someone is respected and admired in the equestrian community isnt a reason to become bias as to what happened. The video is enough to show that there was no reason that horse should have been taken over the last of the course. One other rider they showed had one bad fence and pulled after her horse had a strange stop, she knew something wasnt right. Any rider at that level can feel lameness, or unusual behaviour within two strides on their horse. I am not impressed.

Jealoushe
May. 6, 2007, 06:51 PM
I also just wanted to add that a lot of horses who are brave enough to jump around the Rolex, have big enough hearts that they will keep going, no matter how severe the pain.

nature
May. 6, 2007, 06:56 PM
I also just wanted to add that a lot of horses who are brave enough to jump around the Rolex, have big enough hearts that they will keep going, no matter how severe the pain.

That is exactly why the rider has to be the one to think of the wellfare of her horse! Just like Becky Holder did who was in 4th after dressage.

Jaegermonster
May. 6, 2007, 06:59 PM
I agree, I noticed that section earlier in the course where he looked a bit "unsteady" and pinned his ears for quite a while. I wonder if he didn't strain or bow something early, and kept pounding it which led to the breakdown. Based on what I saw before the ending, she should have pulled up.
I can see the human nature, "Well we are so close to the end, let's go for it and take our chances". But that is not what it is about. The welfare of the horse has to come first, before the glory of winning Rolex, wearing the watch or whatever else.
I'm a police officer and always thought of AT as sort of a kindred spirit. Knowing how hard it is to get time off, and fit in time to ride in public service professions, I admired her drive and her determination, and her accomplishments. But I think this time that determination did her in, and I'm sorry to say I hope the sanctions are severe.

DancingSeahorse
May. 6, 2007, 07:01 PM
NBC just reported he was put down

shea'smom
May. 6, 2007, 07:12 PM
ok, I saw the SAME show and have an entirely different opinion. I thought he looked great. After the big brushes, he flattened his ears when Amy pushed him on. One word - Warmblood. I think people read things the way they see them, but he looked fine to me.
I personally had a Two Star horse who would never under any circumstances put his foot in a bucket of water.
I do not think Sparky would have jumped the Head of the Lake like he did if there was an injury already.
I do not agree that a horse in severe pain would just keep going, why on earth do you think a horse would be that stupid?
BEcky's horse was at a complete stop after the ditch because HE pulled up. Becky wisely retired.
I am not some blind Amy fan, but it is interesting to me to see how we can all watch this video and see such different things.
In retrospect, she should have pulled up, but she looked absolutely gutted to me when they were caring for him.
To each his own, I guess.

2Jakes
May. 6, 2007, 07:27 PM
Hey Jaeger, its 2Jakes...

I have been following this thread without commenting because I am not part of the eventing world (nor will I ever be) and I don't think it serves any purpose to criticize BUT...I saw the U-tube video, it was of a horse that was hurting (BAD :( ) and yet he did what was asked of him, and BRAVELY. He was amazing.

Godspeed LS...the picture of you flying in the other thread is amazing. Have a wonderful afterlife.

I agree with Jaeger, I am a firefighter so I have the same feeling toward AT, but I also hope that much is learned from this tragedy. Whether FEI delivers the lesson, or it is delivered by the terrible consequence of the situation , it needs to taken to heart. I have no doubt AT is feeling the pain, but we are all in her "teachable moment".

Now...go hug your horses, say a prayer for LS and all his connections, and feel the moment.

Lisa

arnika
May. 6, 2007, 07:27 PM
I missed the end of the show, they interrupted it for severe thunderstorm warnings.

It's been rehashed on this thread and others and I believe most if not all are in agreement that AT had no malicious intent towards the horse at all. Also that if she knew he would need to be destroyed that she wouldn't have pushed him on.

The main question in my mind is if she felt the breakdown and her ambition got the better of her judgement or if she truly could not feel that something was wrong. One was a bad judgement and the other would be extremely poor horsemanship.

Since you could hear the crowd on this recording during the final approach, perhaps NBC did not want to show that segment as it's been reported by many that the crowd was shouting for her to pull him up. I would have been interested to hear what Jim Wofford was saying during that 30 seconds.

myguyom
May. 6, 2007, 07:29 PM
At the end of the re-airing of the highlights of Rolex on NBC, they reported that Amy Tryon's horse, Le Sammurai, was euthanized due to the severity of his injuries. Too bad a bad judgement call ended another aspiring horse's career AND life.

RIP Le Sammurai.

canwong
May. 6, 2007, 07:49 PM
Lessors learned:

1) Horse owners, clearing instruct your rider to jump off the horse quickly and forget about the medal. Soundness and well being of the horse take priority over all things.

2) Horse riders, jump off the horse quickly and forget about the medal. Soundness and well being of the horse take priority over all things. No one will hire you ever again, if you forget about this guiding principle.

Best regards
Ken Wong
Toronto, ON

www.StarStallions.com/test

Angela Freda
May. 6, 2007, 08:06 PM
The short format has rather "gutted" the 3-day, but there were other things that might have insured the safety of the horses and riders that I don't think were addressed as stringently as they could have been.
Has moving to the new short format also removed the need for or some of the actual conditioning of the horses?
How different would things have been in this case if the longer format were being used, either in terms of trainging and conditioning that would either have revealed the potential for this injury, or conditioned to avoid it?
Do they get a stop at a vet check while on course of the short format (see how little I know about this?)? And if not would that perhaps have told them the horse was overtaxed?
So many questions. I hope finding answers to these might benefit other event horses will prehaps serve as Le Samurais legacy?

ponyhunter101
May. 6, 2007, 08:26 PM
ergg i forgot it was on and I missed it. :(

beeblebrox
May. 6, 2007, 08:27 PM
"Jealoushe
Having just seen the video on NBC, I can easily say the horse was showing signs of something wrong half way around the course. Fence 12, 16, and 18 were extremely awkward fences, the horse anticipating something painful perhaps?"

I mentioned that days ago after buying video that horse was not running how Had seen him run and looked to be running out of steam. That is when they hurt themselves when the footfalls become too labored and horse can not place foot correctly. Oh course it was poo poo'd as a little bauble after the second to last fence but if you BUY and watch the video you will see a very very fatigued horse break down. Until I saw the video I was not sure but watch it, unlike people it does not LIE or base opinions on anything but what you see.

I happen to like Amy, DO NOT KNOW her personally but have enjoyed watching her in the past and think she is a amazing rider. The horse I do know and am so sad for him.
Sorry Amy is going through this but the horse was so tired and finally took the step heard round the world.

beeblebrox
May. 6, 2007, 08:39 PM
"shea'smom

"I do not think Sparky would have jumped the Head of the Lake like he did if there was an injury already. "

HORSES JUMP ALL THE TIME HURT< IT IS WHY THEY HAVE CATASTROPHIC INJURIES. HORSES DO NOT KNOW THAT PAIN COULD RESULT IN THEM FALLING, BREAKING BONES OR RIPPING TENDONS.. THERI BRAINS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS THE HORSES ARE PRETTY BASIC IN THAT WAY.

"I do not agree that a horse in severe pain would just keep going, why on earth do you think a horse would be that stupid?"

WHY DO HORSES BREAK OUT OF FENCES, RUN DOWN THE ROAD. KICK WALLS OF A STALL AND FRACTURE COFFIN BONES, ETC ETC. THEY DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF COMMON SENSE NOR DO THEY HAVE ANY IDEA OF DEATH OR REPERCUSSIONS OF THEIR ACTIONS OUTSIDE A HERD ENVIRONMENT WHERE CAUSE AND EFFECT ARE BASIC (IE ALPHA MARE IS FIRST TO EAT OR I MAY GET MY BUTT KICKED KIND OF THING).

"I am not some blind Amy fan, but it is interesting to me to see how we can all watch this video and see such different things. "

I AM NOT SURE. BUT HAVING WATCHED THE HORSE RUN BEFORE, HE LOOKED VERY LABORED TO ME. ALSO TO SOME OFFICIALS, PEOPLE WATCHING AND OTHER FOLKS LIKE VETS AND TRAINERS WHO HAVE WATCHED IT. HIND SITE BEING 20/20 THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE BUT SHARE THEORIES AND IDEAS I GUESS. POOR HORSE ;-(

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 6, 2007, 09:25 PM
This thread is like a train wreck to me. I do enjoy reading all of the Monday morning quarter-backing going on here.
Hey, let's do a what-if!!! Let's pretend Le Samauri was okay right now how would your opinions differ?..we have an advantage when looking back on the situation. We already know the end point. Seriously people
I really enjoy those people who are commenting on how they've never evented, but they know what this feels like. Um, bs...it is really hard to feel lameness in a 4 beat gallop...plus your mind is working a million beats a minute.
I find it so interesting that everyone is bashing Amy and eventing, well except those with rational thought, and yet everyone rallied around Barbaro. Eventing horses are conditioned athletes that get to lead normal horse lives.
Amazing how people judge the actions of others based on their own biases.
And, yup I was at Rolex. :eek:

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 6, 2007, 09:28 PM
So by using this logic, only people who have been president can comment on the current president's actions?

You sure you want to use that kind of logic?:lol:

Um, I think unless you've walked in someone's shoes you're not fully qualified to judge their actions.
But I do enjoy your "blanket style" logic. :yes:

Tiligsmom
May. 6, 2007, 09:43 PM
To those of you defending Amy's actions. I say...watch the entire video at www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/equestrian_eventing.jsp#.
If after you've watched the entire ride, you still feel that her actions were reasonable, then so be it. Until you've seen the entire ride, it's impossible to comment. But once you see it, it's very, very, very difficult to give Amy the benefit of the doubt.

Avra
May. 6, 2007, 09:46 PM
It was clear to me that she didn't think he was a fabulous asset to her life, so I guess it wasn't surprising that she just beat him over the fences, even though he was clearly labouring.

OMG, if I bite my tongue any harder, I will bite it right off.

buschkn
May. 6, 2007, 09:53 PM
HHH, I would say that I wholeheartedly disagree with most of what you wrote. And that is allowed since this is America. I disagree that you can't feel a horse who is head bobbing lame, regardless of the gait. Additionally, he was hardly in a 4 beat gallop when he was desperately trying to slow down, trotting and trantering and cantering.

Additionally, to suggest that we are completely incapable of judging is ridiculous. As horse people and humans it is our responsibility to speak up when we see abuse. If I see someone beating their child should I not comment or suggest that it is wrong simply b/c I do not have a child, or have never been in the EXACT situation that the parent was at the time. Sometimes there is a right and a wrong.

ToucheToujour
May. 6, 2007, 09:54 PM
For the record, I think Amy was being honest in how difficult the horse was. He was clearly not an easy horse to ride in general, regardless of one's experience. I think she had heaps to say about the horse's athletic ability and love of his job, but was honestly saying that this early in their relationship, it was a day by day affair. Hell, with my new horse, it's a day by day affair and I adore him.

The thread is repetitive, don't you think? Those who think Amy did not know how badly the horse was hurt will remain steadfast in their views. Those who are horrified by her actions and believe she ignored the horse will remain steadfast in their views.

For lack of a better phrase, and fully understanding the bitter irony of this statement, for god's sake stop beating a dead horse.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 6, 2007, 09:54 PM
Amy's short little interview quickly revealed that her and the horse are not on "great" terms with one another. Before her ride, she mentioned that the horse is very mentally challenging to ride and she just takes it one day at a time. She had very little "positive" to say about the horse. It was clear to me that she didn't think he was a fabulous asset to her life, so I guess it wasn't surprising that she just beat him over the fences, even though he was clearly labouring.

You can easily tell the people who love their mounts, and have a strong partnership. I couldn't gather that at all from her interview before her ride.

Wow. That's all that I can really say. Just because she said that he's a challenging ride, means that she doesn't care if he dies or not? Even if she didn't like him (Which I'm sure she did) that would be a LARGE jump to thinking that she wouldn't care if he died or was in pain...

HappyHoppingHaffy
May. 6, 2007, 10:13 PM
HHH, I would say that I wholeheartedly disagree with most of what you wrote. And that is allowed since this is America. I disagree that you can't feel a horse who is head bobbing lame, regardless of the gait. Additionally, he was hardly in a 4 beat gallop when he was desperately trying to slow down, trotting and trantering and cantering.

Additionally, to suggest that we are completely incapable of judging is ridiculous. As horse people and humans it is our responsibility to speak up when we see abuse. If I see someone beating their child should I not comment or suggest that it is wrong simply b/c I do not have a child, or have never been in the EXACT situation that the parent was at the time. Sometimes there is a right and a wrong.

Um, don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes...ring a bell at all? None of us are Amy, none of us were on that horse, and unless I'm missing something, none of us have ridden at Rolex. We are all intitled to our opinions, but really none of us have the right to judge her.
Interesting that Amy is now an abuser. Hindsight is 20/20 my dear.

Seven
May. 6, 2007, 10:37 PM
The thread is repetitive, don't you think? Those who think Amy did not know how badly the horse was hurt will remain steadfast in their views. Those who are horrified by her actions and believe she ignored the horse will remain steadfast in their views.


What about the middle ground? Those who think Amy did not know how badly the horse was hurt BUT ARE STILL horrified by her actions and believe she ignored the horse?

In some ways, I count myself as an "Amy supporter". I don't know her, but respect her riding and acheivements. I've also seen her entire ride on LS, and feel like a grave error in judgment was made, and it's difficult to comprehend. "Talking" about it helps sort it out.

Paks
May. 6, 2007, 10:51 PM
This thread is like a train wreck to me. I do enjoy reading all of the Monday morning quarter-backing going on here.
Hey, let's do a what-if!!! Let's pretend Le Samauri was okay right now how would your opinions differ?..we have an advantage when looking back on the situation. We already know the end point. Seriously people
I really enjoy those people who are commenting on how they've never evented, but they know what this feels like. Um, bs...it is really hard to feel lameness in a 4 beat gallop...plus your mind is working a million beats a minute.
I find it so interesting that everyone is bashing Amy and eventing, well except those with rational thought, and yet everyone rallied around Barbaro. Eventing horses are conditioned athletes that get to lead normal horse lives.
Amazing how people judge the actions of others based on their own biases.
And, yup I was at Rolex. :eek:


Barbaro wasn't driven foward after he broke down and made to jump a fence. That is the difference

Paks
May. 6, 2007, 11:03 PM
Um, don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes...ring a bell at all? None of us are Amy, none of us were on that horse, and unless I'm missing something, none of us have ridden at Rolex. We are all intitled to our opinions, but really none of us have the right to judge her.
Interesting that Amy is now an abuser. Hindsight is 20/20 my dear.

Hmm by your theory our whole judicial system should be thrown out. My view is this she is a professional rider a professional rider should have enough skill to determine if a horse is lame. So either she knew he was lame or she doesn't have the skills necesary to be a professional.

We aren't talking about a D3 pony clubber here.

Jealoushe
May. 6, 2007, 11:07 PM
Amy's short little interview quickly revealed that her and the horse are not on "great" terms with one another. Before her ride, she mentioned that the horse is very mentally challenging to ride and she just takes it one day at a time. She had very little "positive" to say about the horse. It was clear to me that she didn't think he was a fabulous asset to her life, so I guess it wasn't surprising that she just beat him over the fences, even though he was clearly labouring.

You can easily tell the people who love their mounts, and have a strong partnership. I couldn't gather that at all from her interview before her ride.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I saw it too but thought perhaps it was just because of my opinion on the matter. When the vets were dealing with the horse, she was holding his head, they were just after the finish line... she looked annoyed, almost in a huff. I was shocked to say the least, I expected tears, or a look of fear or kisses to be given to the horse...something! In Mark Todds Biography "So Good, So Far" he talks about losing a horse at Badminton, and he tells how he cried, how he was in agony and could barely leave the horses side. When you have a connection with a horse, I couldnt imagine anything else. I can understand there were probably more than a million things going through the poor girls head, but the horse did not seem to be the #1.

Jealoushe
May. 6, 2007, 11:11 PM
Um, don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes...ring a bell at all? None of us are Amy, none of us were on that horse, and unless I'm missing something, none of us have ridden at Rolex. We are all intitled to our opinions, but really none of us have the right to judge her.
Interesting that Amy is now an abuser. Hindsight is 20/20 my dear.

I wouldn't be too quick to determine what levels and what shows the people posting have competed at. There are plenty of high level riders, and educated professionals among these boards.

blue&blond
May. 6, 2007, 11:24 PM
Amy's short little interview quickly revealed that her and the horse are not on "great" terms with one another. Before her ride, she mentioned that the horse is very mentally challenging to ride and she just takes it one day at a time. She had very little "positive" to say about the horse. It was clear to me that she didn't think he was a fabulous asset to her life, so I guess it wasn't surprising that she just beat him over the fences, even though he was clearly labouring.

You can easily tell the people who love their mounts, and have a strong partnership. I couldn't gather that at all from her interview before her ride.

I've totally agree with you. When I saw the short interview, I thought the same exact thing. I wasn't sure if my perception was tainted after what happened or what.

wlrottge
May. 6, 2007, 11:30 PM
As far as what Amy said a/b the horse being difficult, we have a friend that knows her and the horse. In our friends words, "He was a LOT of horse and a NOT an easy ride". I don't think that by Amy saying he was a hard horse to ride made him any less valuable to her. Our friend went on to say that she was VERY good about caring for all her horses and she had seen her on multiple occasions hand grazing her own horses at events. Someone at that level has people for that, but it showed that she cared for them more than just how they finished the event.

Additionally, when he broke, he probably just broke (given the injury). Did doing the last fence make him worse? Probably not, the damage was done. Did it feel good? Probably not. Did she know how broken he was on the way to the last fence? Doubtful. Is hindsight 20/20? Yes. Would the story have ended the same had she pulled up? Probably.

If it had happened earlier in the course, I'm sure he would have been pulled up, however would he still have been put down? Probably.

Let's take our pitchforks over and burn some Badminton riders now... they lost two there.

wlrottge
May. 6, 2007, 11:36 PM
Sorry, but one more


she looked annoyed, almost in a huff. I was shocked to say the least, I expected tears, or a look of fear or kisses to be given to the horse...something!

You go gallop and jump that course... bet you might have to catch your breath too. At that point, she was probably spent in more ways than one and just the act of standing might require a bit of concentration. Everyone handles loss differently, you don't know if she spent the entire night awake crying, drinking or indifferent. Others said she was noticeably upset and shaken after the incident.

Some of the judgment calls that are getting thrown at her are pretty severe, unforgiving and probably unfounded.

Erin
May. 6, 2007, 11:47 PM
People, you can not discern someone's connection with their horse, nor tell how upset they are or aren't, based on a 30-second snippet on TV.

And you make yourself look pretty ridiculous when you pretend otherwise.