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snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 09:06 AM
and neither does any one of us ITS ALL
SPECULATION!!! Until your are in that saddle on a 4 star course you cant say. We would all like to think we are infallable and great horseman BUT we are all human and capable of making poor judgements!

Also this is not about a four star course. This is about KNOWING something went wrong...weather schooling, hacking etc. Lets take out the 4* element and look at the horses welfare.

mbarrett
May. 1, 2007, 09:18 AM
I can't even imagine how devestated Amy feels. Now all of the "armchair quarterbacks" are attacking her. Guess what, she will have to live with her mistake her whole life, so back off. You were not in her saddle, in her moment, in her situation. How do you even know the intimate details?

Next, those of you who are perfect, please raise your hand. Honestly, there should be no one out there with their hand raised. EVERYONE makes mistakes, even YOU. I'm the first to admit that I'm not perfect.

Let the FEI take care of this.

Next time you do or say something marginal to your friends, co-workers, strangers, and even an animal, remember you are not perfect. We all make mistakes.

A little compassion and sympathy goes a long way.

I'll step down from my soapbox now.

fourhorses
May. 1, 2007, 09:20 AM
I questioned myself for posting on this, because indeed it has probably gone on for long enough.

After watching the video I would have to say that it definitely appears as though she could have and should have pulled up.
What was going through her head is only hers to know, and I'm sure she is tormenting herself as much as anyone possibly could.
Was in with ill/malicious intent? I highly doubt that. Rather I would conjecture that the old adage "the devil haunts the steps of the good man" is quite true here.
Her judgement was off; she didn't "make good choices" at that point in the ride; she mucked up and is and most probably will be paying for it.
I don't think crucifying her is in order, neither do I believe wholeheartedly defending her is either. I do hope that Le Samurai recovers enough to have quality of life in spoiled and catered to retirement as that is the very least that he deserves.
As for Ms. Tryon, I hope that the FEI "makes good choices" in their dealings with her -- I don't believe she should be hammered unmercifully for for this nor should she get off the hook completely (I am remembering another Rolex many, many moons ago when a rider on a certain grey horse made what were in my and my parents' decisions "very bad choices" -- Ms. Tryon is certainly not the only event rider who has screwed up royally), but perhaps my non-horsey husband said it most correctly: "perhaps she should be made to sit out for a while(not fined heavily or taken out for life, as it did not appear to be a person operating from ill intent so much as denial and wishful thinking) and think about it, so hopefully when she comes out again she will be a bit more considered in her actions." Hopefully she will come out of this an even better horsewoman than she is now and go on to a long and successful career even better than she would have been if this had not happened.

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 09:22 AM
MM-
Have you given any thought that PERHAPS that uneven numbers of American to Brit's opinions MIGHT just be on the sheer number of Americans that post on this board since this is based out of Virginia?

Have you you given any thought that perhaps many that are "supporting" Amy aren't actually supporting her but saying they are sympathetic to the situation and aren't passing judgement quite yet?

Have you given any thought that perhaps it might be prudent to not rush to opinion and wait to see what actually comes out and let those that were there, in a position of authority, and have some knowledge attempt to deal with this?

Have you given any thought that with the backlash this is already creating many are supporting Amy b/c they are supporting the sport and it has more to do with that than Amy Tryon herself?

And that anyone who is "supporting" Amy is also supporting the horse and the horse's welfare by having patience and waiting for all the evidence to come in before being judge, jury, and excutioner?

But you are probably right, we Americans only support our own and are only out for the ribbon. Look at how we have bashed the Brit riders over the years? :rolleyes:

mbarrett
May. 1, 2007, 09:32 AM
Someone brought up the fact that other riders made mistakes while on course. Remember way back in the late 1980's or early 1990's when John Williams and Steven Bradley goofed up and were off the radar for many years? I'm sure they paid for their mistakes, but have continued to compete. Life does go on. It will for everyone, including Amy.

Eventer13
May. 1, 2007, 09:34 AM
Regardless of what happened, I dont think it should be up on youtube, to be judged by whomever happens to see it (and there are many on there that dont know a thing about horses, jumping, or eventing in general). Eventing, and the equestrian community, really doesn't need that right now.

TBCollector
May. 1, 2007, 09:35 AM
I am new to this forum, and felt compelled to post something after reading the various responses to this terribly tragedy.

First of all, I think every opinion expressed in this thread has merit. To say that no one should judge or criticize is preposterous. Amy Tryon is a public figure, and arguably among the top five event riders in the world. Her actions impact not only her career but the sport's public perception as well. If she is defended through some of the rationalizations I have read on this and other boards (many of which border on the absurd) then we run the risk of joining horse racing as a sport many horse lovers perceive as brutal and inhumane.

I was at Rolex watching Amy's run with many of her peers and a couple of former Olympians. I don't feel comfortable posting their respective reactions to what was taking place on the course.

No one in the upper levels of eventing who knows Amy believes she is a win-at-all-costs, ruthless competitor. To a rider, all of the upper level people I talked to about this - many of whom do not like Amy personally - said she is a terrific horsewoman who leaves nothing to chance. She has developed scores of events horses in her lifetime, and many go on to compete well into their 20s.

But...she f#cked up. Big time.

Amy was riding an EXTREMELY difficult, brilliant horse. Their cross-country round, up to the final minute, was a thing of beauty. Sparky was absolutely flying, and it looked easy. Can you imagine how exhilirating that must have been? Can you understand how, in those heady, final moments, your judgement could be altered? How you MIGHT be thinking, I am having the greatest cross country round of my life. And the last fence is RIGHT THERE....

This is a no-win for all involved. Sparky is done as an event horse, and Amy will, right or wrong, be castigated for it. This, and not the Rolex trophy, is what she's earned.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 09:46 AM
I am completely perplexed as to how Amy could not feel her ride, Le samurai become so un-sound heading towards the last fence. To watch with horror a rider of Amy’s calibre push ‘Sparky’ past his capabilities after being injured was sickening and a frightening example of how someone’s desire to finish over came the responsibility of them as a horsewoman to protect their horse from further suffering. The abuse of trust from Amy is a breach of what we all strive for, to have the best relationship with our horses, to protect and to honour them. I look forward to the F.E.I investigation into her conduct, but I’m afraid to say, my judgement has been made, and for all the good she has done our sport and has achieved has been undone with this selfish act of neglect. If in doubt, do the honest thing and pull up. I do not wish to see Amy compete in the UK.

magnolia73
May. 1, 2007, 09:46 AM
Next, those of you who are perfect, please raise your hand. Honestly, there should be no one out there with their hand raised. EVERYONE makes mistakes, even YOU. I'm the first to admit that I'm not perfect.

I'm not perfect. But something went wrong. And for me, it seems something goes wrong a little too often in this sport. And when something goes wrong, there seems to be limited investigation and even less information that is useful gleaned when something goes wrong. And many people continue to support it by saying- hey- nobody is perfect - you can be offended when you have ridden at a **** level. But it seems to be the excuse for everything that goes wrong with eventing. And it is a very weak excuse because our mistakes can hurt the horse.

I do think a small number of people here are trying to trash the rider. But the rest of us are trying to express that the gravity of the situation warrants a good hard look at the sport and whether enough is done by all parties to protect the horses. To say - "oh, its a part of the sport...." or "oh, you wouldn't understand" or "oh, it's not your business" is to dismiss the thoughts and concerns of people who are concerned solely with the welfare of the horse. Ultimately, we need to be certain that we are doing right by the horse. To date, the sport of eventing has not proven to me to be very good at follow up on accidents. It seems more to be wait a week and it will die down.

flyingchange
May. 1, 2007, 09:53 AM
I cannot get the image of him struggling to obey her out of my head. I watched her entire round and I have to say that I questioned how fast he was galloping for the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the course, with no attempt (that I saw) to rate him. I exercise race horses for a living and so I do know something about galloping and rating a fit horse. Even though she was relaxing him by letting him have his head and just go, I think she unintentionally milked all the juice he had way before the end of the course. I really was shocked at how fast they were going and how there was no effort from the irons to put him into a more acceptable energy-conserving galloping frame. He was just all-out the whole way around. In racing, there is a reason why the jockeys hold the horses for the first 2/3 or so of the race - they know that if they let them go all out from the gate, the horses would run out of steam and probably break down. This horse was at an all-out gallop for four miles with huge fences and technical questions to contend with. So by the end he looked like he was about to collapse after the ducks (2nd to the last fence) and she was definitely pushing him to stay in canter - he looked like he would have gladly walked at that point ... just very behind the leg, exhausted, but still giving her everything he had, down to his life if that was what it cost. I wonder what was going through his mind when he was trying to tell her he was hurting and asking to stop. She says they "share a deep bond that is beyond competition" - and because of that deep bond he kept trying for her even if it meant doing it on three legs. And she let him. That's abuse. Period.

I hope and pray (and I am not a praying person, but this event has me turning towards God) that he is going to be OK.

As human beings, witnessing a horse who trusts and loves his rider so much as it reaches down and gives her everything he has, and then breaking because of it - it is heartbreaking. But then to see her ignore his obvious pain and to tell him to continue on, it hurts. Then to have her say he locked on to that last fence and she didn't want to "try" to stop him ... well, that is insulting when anyone who sees the video sees she pushed him to that fence, and not only that, but she then pushed him to cross the finish line, limping.

And the whole argument that "maybe she didn't feel it" is a load of hogwash. There is no way she didn't feel it.

I had all the respect in the world for AT before this happened. I had publically slated her and Sparky to win Rolex on another COTH thread. I felt they had a world-class partnership and I was really excited for her and for him, as well as for Robyn Fisher who must have been so thrilled with them.

Right now I guess I am just sad. I am mourning the loss of what eventing used to mean to me. I cannot even watch the rest of the Rolex downloads I have. I have no interest. I know she did not maliciously drive him to that last jump and over the finish line, but the fact that she did not mean to do it does not make me feel better.

I am glad it is in the FEI's hands.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 09:57 AM
im sure we all have...how many of us though have done what amy did? :confused:
i know i have not and will not ever put my gain before my horses' health.
She deserves to be penalised, one of the top world ranking riders and she pushed for the finish line with a crippled horse. Head held in shame comes to mind

playing cards again
May. 1, 2007, 10:03 AM
I think it is strange that she did not jump off immediately even after she crossed the finish line. She waited a few second and then swung off. To me, this is evidence that the horse did not feel as bad as he looked. Barbaro's jockey jumped off mid-canter. Amy clearly could have as well, but she didn't. I just can't believe that the thought process was "my horse broke a leg--I will continue on." No horse person does that, I'm sorry. I just don't believe it. Only Amy knows or will know what went through her head, but I seriously doubt it was that.

We call on our riders to judge whether their mount is practically sound. Even Bill Steinkraus has written that he knew top jumpers that would not pass a vet check by a long shot, but their riders took all things into consideration, including their and their owners hopes and dreams, and competed on them and won for years. Practically sound is a judgment call, not a black and white decision. Amy made a judgment call that was wrong, but if the horse did not feel as bad as he looked, it may have been a reasonable one to her at the time.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:12 AM
Which begs the question what is she doing on a horse if she cant tell the difference between a lost shoe, a slipped boot or a horse that has brokendown. It was amy's descision to continue to push the boy, even after he was telling her it wasnt right. Poor horsewoman, she may have achieved great things until now but if she cant get the important things right, then i dont think she should be representing her country at any level

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 1, 2007, 10:15 AM
Was a mistake made...yes. Was that mistake intentional...No. I think that we have to keep that in mind. People are slamming AT for seemingly purposefully pushing the horse to the breakdown point. I can't believe that for one moment she would do that (and not becuase I think she or any other evente is nicer to their horses than anyone else.) Take that fact that she has a track record of stellar horse management aside, it is a bad business decision. She has a horse that has taken YEARS and tens of thousands of dollars in training, time, vets, etc. to get to this level. There is no way that horse was proceeding to SJ under any circumstances. She knew that. Would she really, on purpose, push the horse to a point where her's and the owner's investment was going to be for nothing? If she did (And I don't think she did) she is bad horseman and a bad businesswomen.

She made a mistake not pulling the horse up. Was it intentionally cruel as defined by the FEI, I doubt it. Will it color the way the horse world thinks of her; yes. Did Barbaro breaking down color the racing communties thoughts about that colt's light prep schedule prior to his triple crown attempt and Michael Matz? Yes. That is the nature of the beast. The sad, sad reality of this is that the HORSE always pays the price, regardless of the rider having the best of intentions of not.

The eventing community is the most supportive community in horse sport (I have done hunters, dressage, AQHA, hunting, point-to-point here and in the UK), the back lash is not really about AT being somekind of beast, it is about the utter horror of thinking that the horse was in pain. We are the same people who tear up when we see a new born foal turned out for the first time, or think about our old campaigners taking their last breath. Those who are horrified that people are 'reacting' need to think about the reason for the reaction; the wellfare of the horse. The wellfare of the rider and the owner come second. The horse had no choice the matter.

Displaced anger can seem bitter, but that is all that it is. Anger that a brave horse did his job despite being in pain. This is something that horses have done for people for hundreds of years. From war animals dying in battle to save their rider, to exhausted horse plowing fields, to reading Black Beauty as a kid, we feel empathy for the horse. We are supposed to since these animals are no longer beast of burden but luxury itmes of extravagnece.

Horses die everday around the world from being pushed to hard in fields, pulling carts, carrying pacts in the moantains, etc. Where is the backlash for those horse? We care because we saw this one. No one see those horses and ponies pushed beyond their breaking point because they are a beat of burden, an economic device...now that is intentional cruelty.

szipi
May. 1, 2007, 10:20 AM
The video footage shows two things: a tragic accident and the rider chasing the totally lame horse - who is trying to pull up - forward. Think of it this way: everybody, who watched the Barbaro accident last year saw that the jockey immediately pulled up and he was on the ground within 4-5 seconds from the time of the first misstep. Mind you, that the jockey weighed maybe 110 pounds. Mind you that he was riding a 3 YO (practically untrained) TB in one of the biggest flat races in the world. Amy Tryon is an overweight, large person - I do not know her weight, but it might be at least 75-80% more than what the jockey weighed. She was also riding an older, fully trained half Holsteiner with plenty of dressage and precision jumping experience. Remember, when you do not have full control over your horse at those eventing levels, no matter who you are, it will catch up with you sooner or later (Ralph Hill, etc.). She was kicking the horse forward even as he was trying to pull up and the horse NEVER seemed to fully recover. Suggesting it otherwise and trying to make up excuses for the rider is totally ludicrous. Even if it was just a bent shoe or something minor, chasing the horse forward for another 30 seconds and taking another **** fence with the horse would have risked aggravating the original injury and if the rider had been a true horseman, would have pulled up immediately.

In both the Barbaro case and in this case fully prepared equine athletes were in action, along with their fully trained and experienced riders. In both cases a tragic accident happened for which nobody could have been prepared. BUt tradegy always brings out the worst and the best in people. Unfortunately, this tradegy brough out the absolute worst in Amy Tryon, she got caugh on tape and the only decent thing she can do now is acknowledge that she made a colossal mistake at her hose's expense (btw, she does not own the horse). She failed Samurai in his moment of greatest need - how can that be explained?

www.prairiepinesfarm.com

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:21 AM
I give to 2 horse charities each month! i do my bit and voice my concerns with them. Most cases of neglect come through ignorance, amy is an educated horse woman. For anyone who defends this womans actions is a also an abuse of horses trust. Did she push this horse too hard? yes. Did he tell her that? yes? did she listen to his body? NO! if they share such a bond she would of known...to be honest, i find the woman irresponsible, un trustworthy, not just through actions but from the words out her mouth.

Amymay
May. 1, 2007, 10:22 AM
Horses die everday around the world from being pushed to hard in fields, pulling carts, carrying pacts in the moantains, etc. Where is the backlash for those horse?
I think they're called equine welfare charities aren't they??????:confused:

RedMare01
May. 1, 2007, 10:25 AM
I haven't read past page 10, so sorry if this is a repeat.

Obviously the horse has a horrific injury and things could have been handled better, both on the course and after. BUT if she knew the injury was that bad when it happened, WHY would she have made him jump the last jump? If she'd known it was that bad, she would have known that she was possibly risking her own life if he had completely broken down after the jump. Plus, he wouldn't have been able to compete the next day...so ???? I just don't think that she knew exactly what happened or how bad it was.

Caitlin

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:29 AM
Well she should of pulled him up checked and then continued? stop making excuses for this womans behaviour to her ride. :mad:

DLee
May. 1, 2007, 10:29 AM
Gotta love all the posts by 'greenies'. :rolleyes: Can't say what you want under your own name? Or did we just magically get a lot of new members??

The thing that bothers me the MOST, as has been said before, is the defending of what she did, and not admitting that he WANTED to stop. That is there for all to see.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:35 AM
I am a new member! *waves hello* maybe wont make a lot of friends from what i have posted so far. Its a point of view, and an entitlement im allowed. Im from another forum who sent me the link of this and i browsed and thought i would add my opinion to the story

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 10:36 AM
Otherwise you would not be hacking this woman to ribbons. ITS OVER She made a mistake a bad one. I and everyone on here has made a bad mistake sometime in there lives. Horse related or not. GET OVER IT. :mad: :confused: :no: :eek:

Amymay
May. 1, 2007, 10:37 AM
Hello, I'm a new member to. And likewise posted to put my thoughts across about this particular subject.

moonriverfarm
May. 1, 2007, 10:40 AM
It can be explained like this: the horse always loses in a situation where fame and glory for the rider or owner is involved. In a situation like this, at the end of a ride, when the rider can see the prize, the error is at the expense of the horse. She'd rather hope it's nothing than pull up and err on the side of caution, because than, what if he wasn't really hurt...what would everbody involved think? That she was a quitter, did not know what she was doing? Or would they say, "well, she wanted to be sure the horse was okay"?

One Star
May. 1, 2007, 10:40 AM
I am new to this forum, and felt compelled to post something after reading the various responses to this terribly tragedy.

First of all, I think every opinion expressed in this thread has merit. To say that no one should judge or criticize is preposterous. Amy Tryon is a public figure, and arguably among the top five event riders in the world. Her actions impact not only her career but the sport's public perception as well. If she is defended through some of the rationalizations I have read on this and other boards (many of which border on the absurd) then we run the risk of joining horse racing as a sport many horse lovers perceive as brutal and inhumane.

I was at Rolex watching Amy's run with many of her peers and a couple of former Olympians. I don't feel comfortable posting their respective reactions to what was taking place on the course.

No one in the upper levels of eventing who knows Amy believes she is a win-at-all-costs, ruthless competitor. To a rider, all of the upper level people I talked to about this - many of whom do not like Amy personally - said she is a terrific horsewoman who leaves nothing to chance. She has developed scores of events horses in her lifetime, and many go on to compete well into their 20s.

But...she f#cked up. Big time.

Amy was riding an EXTREMELY difficult, brilliant horse. Their cross-country round, up to the final minute, was a thing of beauty. Sparky was absolutely flying, and it looked easy. Can you imagine how exhilirating that must have been? Can you understand how, in those heady, final moments, your judgement could be altered? How you MIGHT be thinking, I am having the greatest cross country round of my life. And the last fence is RIGHT THERE....

This is a no-win for all involved. Sparky is done as an event horse, and Amy will, right or wrong, be castigated for it. This, and not the Rolex trophy, is what she's earned.

Thank you for a thoughtful and well-balanced post. I appreciate your candor and insight.

You are absolutely correct -- this is a no-win situation, and I feel absolutely sick over it. :cry:

hunter-eventer-hunter
May. 1, 2007, 10:40 AM
My intention is not to denfend Amy or her decision, but to merely keep the conversation civil. We all have the same goal: the wellfare of the horse. Debating is AT is a monster or not does nothing to raise awareness of the horse's best interest. The FEI will decide if what she did was intentional cruelty.

We have the pleasure of being involved with these noble animals. I think that we all agree that the horse paid for her mistake. What if the mistake had been a bad set up to a fence and the horse had hit the fence, flipped and roled and been injured? What if the horse had broken a limb getting caught between the rails of the creek oxer? This is a VERY dangerous sport for both parties. AT failed the horse...no debate on that one. Horses are failed by their riders/handlers all of the time. Go to a barn that specalized in halter horse. These animals are feed so much protein, get so little activity, that their hooves fall apart. How about metal head ties used to train some western pleausre animals? Spade bits....

What happened was not premeditated...that is why I am not running to the stake to burn AT. There are people much higher on my list.

redlight
May. 1, 2007, 10:41 AM
Two things come to my mind. Thank God the horse didn't crash at the last jump and I think more people, myself included, would be more sympathetic of Amy if she admitted to making a mistake instead of trying to justify it by saying the horse was locked on to the fence. I counted 27 strides, which was hard to do given that the horse wasn't going right, from the time he stumbled to the takeoff point of the jump.

It was an unfortunate incident broadcast worldwide. Does anyone remember Todd Trewin pressing his exhausted horse around the Barcelona Olympic xc course? It too caused quite an outcry from the public. The FEI investigated and the yellow card came into play. I think that was the last anyone heard of Todd Trewin. I hope the FEI once again does something to prevent riders from continuing on course with an otherwise lame horse.

Ja Da Dee
May. 1, 2007, 10:43 AM
im sure we all have...how many of us though have done what amy did?



Well, not many of us have galloped up to the last fence at Rolex, I can guarantee that.

Trixie
May. 1, 2007, 10:46 AM
Poor Amy. Poor horse. Sucks for everyone involved. I'm not even going to attempt to justify anyone's actions or some of the things said on this thread but I'm hoping Amy comes through this ok and more importantly, that the brave, game, kind and WONDERFUL horse gets the care and love he deserves. Any horse jumping like that off three legs should be bronzed and sainted. What a HEART.

Well said. Best wishes to the horse.

InVA
May. 1, 2007, 10:46 AM
Sorry but barely cantering (in my opinion) ISN'T being LOCKED on to a fence.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:47 AM
its a forum, where people are able to have the view on a subject..and this subject has bought our sport into disrepute.

the fact you dont seem to bothered by that fact is yet another worry of mine into a sport constantly in the spotlight.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 10:51 AM
Well, not many of us have galloped up to the last fence at Rolex, I can guarantee that.


NO! i am, at pre novice level. but to me it showed she SHOULDNT be competing there

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 10:54 AM
NO! i am, at pre novice level. but to me it showed she SHOULDNT be competing there

so you could join in the feeding frenzy and impart your superior wisdom here, God help the horse world. All you people should look in the mirror. Talk about self rightous. :eek: :no: :confused:

Perfect Pony
May. 1, 2007, 10:56 AM
Thank you for a thoughtful and well-balanced post. I appreciate your candor and insight.

You are absolutely correct -- this is a no-win situation, and I feel absolutely sick over it. :cry:

I agree. I haven't posted because I just didn't know if I could put into words how I feel about it. I have had the unfortunate experience to see several upper level competitors compete horses that had no business competing due to physical issues and prior injuries. I know of a horse locally that was killed schooling fences he was no longer supposed to be schooling, supervised by an Olympic medalist. I have watched these riders continue to ride these horses because it is what they had to ride, and they ride them until they are literally done. Some of these people are spoken of highly on this board, and I shake my head.

I am sure Amy is a nice person, a great rider, and most of the time a good horsewoman. But, sometimes I wonder if people in this sport become a little immune to just what it seems to take to get and keep these horses at this level. It does seem to include pushing on through many things - attitude, injuries, etc. What I saw was a horse so incredibly lame my first reaction was that he would be pulled up immediately, and I watched in disbelief when he was asked to keep going.

IMO if you cannot FEEL that, you have no business being up there. In any motorsport you have to know your machine and be listening for the smallest sound, smell or feel, your life is on the line. It's no different in equine sports. If you don't have that skill you shouldn't be there.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 11:00 AM
so you could join in the feeding frenzy and impart your superior wisdom here, God help the horse world. All you people should look in the mirror. Talk about self rightous. :eek: :no: :confused:



Just beacuse i am not a **** star rider doesnt dis credit my opinion on this. i can assure you, at pre novcie when my horse tweaked he was pulled up and i was off asap. Amy is an international horsewoman that younger generations like myself look or looked upto. Will people believe it to be ok to carry on over the last fence, just in case it is a lost shoe etc. The excuses her and Mark have made are not a vision of truth, the video explains itself. As i said i may not be a **** eventer but i sure know the difference between personal gain and putting my horse first. and people like ME are exaclty what this sport needs.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 11:01 AM
let us not forget that Rolex this year was a QUALIFING event for the olympics....The rider is in first place after dressage... what looks to be like a clean XC and in with a shot...


OOOPPPS I feel something here....but hopefully it is not too bad, maybe a bit of ice etc and things will come right for showjumping and I get my qualifing score


In this case the gamble DID NOT pay off. Riding is a career for her, and with all careers, pleople take calulated risks and gambles....unfortunately another living being....with out a choice...is forced to pay the price.

I beleieve she knew something was wrong...she had too...and put a qualifing
score above the welfare of the horse.

VCT
May. 1, 2007, 11:05 AM
In watching the video it is clear to me that the horse was lame well before the jump. He wanted to stop and/or it would have been easy to go around the jump. He took was lame every step from the point he stumbled on to the end.

I look at that video and think, yes I would have pulled up. Yes, he was lame. But I also think about what she might have been thinking. "Oops, bit of a stumble there, wow he's tired, push on - one more jump boy"... it's quite possible she thought the stumble was just that, that the swapping/backing off following could have been from him being tired and loss of rhythm from the stumble, etc.

I can't imagine paying any attention to what bystanders on the ropes are saying when running XC. Who cares if they were yelling to her about his condition. I imagine mostly they are yelling all the time, I'd just tune it out as I'm sure most of the riders do.

He should have been stopped. Amy made a mistake. Thats all it is - a mistake. I know when something like this happens it seems as though the reasoning behind it should be MORE in some way.. MORE than just a mistake! It's a horrible injury, a tragic occurance. It's so hard to accept that there was nothing sinister or untoward involved. It was just a mistake.

I don't think she should be crucified for it.

ravenclaw
May. 1, 2007, 11:06 AM
Just beacuse i am not a **** star rider doesnt dis credit my opinion on this.

Maybe not, but your crappy writing (errors in grammar, spelling, and punctuation) helps discredit you.

up&atem
May. 1, 2007, 11:08 AM
let us not forget that Rolex this year was a QUALIFING event for the olympics....The rider is in first place after dressage... what looks to be like a clean XC and in with a shot...


OOOPPPS I feel something here....but hopefully it is not too bad, maybe a bit of ice etc and things will come right for showjumping and I get my qualifing score


In this case the gamble DID NOT pay off. Riding is a career for her, and with all careers, pleople take calulated risks and gambles....unfortunately another living being....with out a choice...is forced to pay the price.

I beleieve she knew something was wrong...she had too...and put a qualifing
score above the welfare of the horse.



I think you hit the nail on the head, Snoopy.

fourhorses
May. 1, 2007, 11:09 AM
All right, enough people, enough.

What's done is done, and something will be done about it which is quite beyond anyone here's power to control or decide.

It has been very, very sad all the way around (although I refrain from "tragic" -- as that is perhaps a term best applied to the death of small children or the destruction of many innocent lives).

Let us all agree to wish the best for the horse and hopefully some learning on the part of we humans to consider our horses more.

But fighting with each other over what is essentially a moot point is redundant and not good for anyone.

[That includes any polls and any other threads -- pro Amy or con Amy. Enough already, all that can be done is done and it is time to just let the powers that be do their jobs and wait for what happens.]

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 11:13 AM
A mistake...a mistake...a mistake

Everyone keeps refering to this as a mistake, well another living being is crippled....not from her decision to continue but who can say that the situation was not made worse or could have a potentially worse outcome as a result of continuing on course when damage was done.


Her continuing on course is NOT a mistake...it was a decision she made. Going off course is a mistake...pushing a very tired, and lame horse over another jump and through to the finish is not a mistake...it was a very bad choice/decision...but not a mistake.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 11:13 AM
Just beacuse i am not a **** star rider doesnt dis credit my opinion on this. i can assure you, at pre novcie when my horse tweaked he was pulled up and i was off asap. Amy is an international horsewoman that younger generations like myself look or looked upto. Will people believe it to be ok to carry on over the last fence, just in case it is a lost shoe etc. The excuses her and Mark have made are not a vision of truth, the video explains itself. As i said i may not be a **** eventer but i sure know the difference between personal gain and putting my horse first. and people like ME are exaclty what this sport needs.

is I hope you are never under the microscope. God help you! Bravo for being so perfect and above all reproach.:rolleyes:

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 11:15 AM
Maybe not, but your crappy writing (errors in grammar, spelling, and punctuation) helps discredit you.

and that was to make yourself feel better because i dont beileve milady Tryon is figure of god?!

My point is still as valid as the next person. Im sure if this had of happened at a local level/event some of you would be the first people to jump on the bandwagon about what you had of seen.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 11:19 AM
is I hope you are never under the microscope. God help you! Bravo for being so perfect and above all reproach.:rolleyes:


Sannois: Your threads bare the same remark over and over again. How many people can you keep calling perfect? Maybe you have a complex about perfection. Or perhaps you have nothing left to say that holds any merit.

ToucheToujour
May. 1, 2007, 11:21 AM
Amazing, isn't it, how we as humans are so quick to latch onto one single isolated incident as indicative of another human's horsemanship, ambition, and virtue while disregarding twenty plus years of dedicated service to civil society, to the sport, and to every horse that brought her to that ride.

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 11:24 AM
Amazing, isn't it, how we as humans are so quick to latch onto one single isolated incident as indicative of another human's horsemanship, ambition, and virtue while disregarding twenty plus years of dedicated service to civil society, to the sport, and to every horse that brought her to that ride.


Well Said

Applesauce
May. 1, 2007, 11:26 AM
Without having to read through 15 pages of this can anyone tell me what the injury to he horse wound up being, what the prognoses is and how he's doing?

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:26 AM
I'm not perfect. But something went wrong. And for me, it seems something goes wrong a little too often in this sport. And when something goes wrong, there seems to be limited investigation and even less information that is useful gleaned when something goes wrong. And many people continue to support it by saying- hey- nobody is perfect - you can be offended when you have ridden at a **** level. But it seems to be the excuse for everything that goes wrong with eventing. And it is a very weak excuse because our mistakes can hurt the horse.

Magnolia, I don't think the "you can't comment unless you ride at the 4-star level" type argument is valid, but I *do* think that it's difficult to have a good understanding if you don't event at some level. (I'm not sure if you do or not.)

I disagree that there is limited investigation or useful information -- generally, when these things happen, people within eventing take it pretty damn hard. There is not usually much to investigate or much information to be gleaned, however -- when 120 horses negotiate an obstacle without issue and one horse "misses" and crashes, what conclusion is there to draw except "these things sometimes happen."

I can understand not wanting to watch -- hey, it's up to you. I'm not a huge fan of racing or chasing myself, and yeah, there are some XC rounds that I find hard to watch as well.

But for every "bad" round, there is one like Theodore O'Connor's, which was just foot-perfect and beautiful to watch. To me, there is just something different about a perfectly executed XC round that you don't see in any other sport. And even at the novice level, there is something very special and different about heading out on XC that might be hard to understand if you haven't experienced it yourself.

That said, this wasn't an accident specific to eventing. It was, from what I understand, a suspensory injury, which can happen to any performance horse. (Didn't Royal Kaliber do a suspensory at the Olympics, or was that a tendon? I can't remember...)

So I really don't think this thread is the place for a discussion on eventing itself. This is a discussion of an isolated incident, a rider's reaction to an injury, not the injury itself.

fourhorses
May. 1, 2007, 11:28 AM
Seriously, enough already.

People on both sides are whipping themselves into a state -- over something they themselves have little control over. This is how headaches are started and ulcers formed -- not good for you or anyone in the immediate vicinity.

Back away from this trainwreck, go out and love your favorite (and maybe not so favorite) horse(s), hug your kids (or other people important to you), plant a tree/shrub/flower/vegtable/herb (only please make it a legal one), wish the horse a good and speedy recovery, and don't beat a dead mule anymore. Have no fear that something will come of this -- but you and I don't have much say in what will; unless personally in on this.

Let the FEI and the vets do their jobs, and wait and see what happens.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:29 AM
its a forum, where people are able to have the view on a subject..and this subject has bought our sport into disrepute.

the fact you dont seem to bothered by that fact is yet another worry of mine into a sport constantly in the spotlight.

Flintus, you need to take a deep breath and step back from your keyboard.

You're welcome to participate in the discussion, but being deliberately belligerent and combative, especially when you've just registered and people don't "know" you, isn't going to be productive.

flintus
May. 1, 2007, 11:35 AM
im being attacked, and i do not see my post as belligerent , im merely sticking up for my point of view, which is obviously not all to welcome if you are not a regular because of clique issues. what a shame you disperage new members and not the old. how sad

ToucheToujour
May. 1, 2007, 11:38 AM
That said, this wasn't an accident specific to eventing. It was, from what I understand, a suspensory injury, which can happen to any performance horse. (Didn't Royal Kaliber do a suspensory at the Olympics, or was that a tendon? I can't remember...)

So I really don't think this thread is the place for a discussion on eventing itself. This is a discussion of an isolated incident, a rider's reaction to an injury, not the injury itself.

Erin, Roy had a bowed tendon and fought off bouts of colic before finally be put to rest after colic surgery.

I agree--this is not an injury unique to eventing.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:39 AM
You reap what you sow. When you act belligerent and combative, of course people will attack you.

Try being thoughtful and offering productive discourse, and I'll bet they'll stop.

ToucheToujour
May. 1, 2007, 11:39 AM
im being attacked, and i do not see my post as belligerent , im merely sticking up for my point of view, which is obviously not all to welcome if you are not a regular because of clique issues. what a shame you disperage new members and not the old. how sad

You're being ridiculous. Seriously. Stop. We're disagreeing, not attacking you. You are welcome to defend your point of view, but try to do it without personal attacks on other members.

Quinn
May. 1, 2007, 11:42 AM
flintus, if I may......

I do not belong to a clique. I am however a longtime poster and have seen (and participated in) many a trainwreck. Absolutely nothing gets accomplished. Often, damage is done. I know nothing of eventing other than it takes a lot more than I have to offer. Having said that, this was a terrible terrible thing. Lives will be changed because of it. Your opinion does count but at this stage I agree the "powers that be" should handle it.

Do stick around. This is a great "community" that has accomplished some wonderful things.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Applesauce
May. 1, 2007, 11:43 AM
Helloooooooooooo can ya'll stop bickering long enough to answer my question? What was the injury to the horse, what is his prognosis and is he going to be okay?

Geez, people!

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 11:48 AM
obviously there is little information about this...so I doubt you will get the answers you would like....we shall just have to wait for the offical vet's report.

BLBGP
May. 1, 2007, 11:48 AM
I think the problem here is the misunderstanding between the two "sides" here. It seems that the strong supporters are saying that what happened was ok. And the others are saying what she did - for whatever reason - was definitely not ok. There are a few taking the leap to determine why it happened (not feeling it, greed, etc.) but if we discount those few, the main issue lies in was what happened ok or was it not ok.....and those of us who think it was not ok are being whipped into a bit of a frenzy by those who appear to be saying it was.

I'm sure she is upset. I'm sure she is more upset that anyone on here. But why can't we say that what she did was not the right decision - regardless of why she made it - without having it considered "bashing".

Agreeing that it was a very unfortunate mistake will do a lot more for the incident and the sport than being defensive and saying you can't have an opinion unless you have ridden Rolex or ridden a horse that has broken down.

Like someone said earlier, we will do a lot more for the sport if we stand by the horse. A lot more than we will do by circling the wagons or trying to squelch the story.

Nikki^
May. 1, 2007, 11:54 AM
I don't hate Amy as a person or a horseman. I'm just dissapointed in her at the moment. And saying that she is sorry will not get her off the hook or make things better. She has to take responsibility for her actions and the FEI will punish her accordingly.

I wish Amy the best and Sparky a speedy recovery. Let's not bash Amy, she is only human. Let's all hope that she learns from this and not make the same mistake again. It was a bad horsemanship and she will have to pay for it.

For all you Amy fanatics: Do you all remember when Royal Kaliber ripped his tendon after the jump in the Olympics? Remember how fast Chris pulled him up? You didn't see him jump another jump did you? He felt that his horse was off and he retired. He could've went on, thinking it was a pulled shoe, but he had the horse's welfare in mind. That's good horsemanship. :yes:

longride
May. 1, 2007, 11:56 AM
I did an interesting experiment. I watched the video of Barbaro and timed from the moment that it became obvious that the jockey was trying to pull him up ( which would have been a couple of seconds at very least from the moment the actual event happened.) til the time that Barbaro began to come to a stop. The video did not go all the way to the moment when the horse actually stopped as the jockey jumped off. Adding 2 seconds for the jockey to realize how bad the problem was plus another at least three seconds that I didn't see but remember from another video, it would have been 14-15 seconds from the time Barbaro took the first bad step til he got slowed to the point where the jockey could jump off. Let's give this rider a break, folks. She didn't have the luxury of an open track in front of her and she did have a horse every bit as determined to go on as Barbaro, maybe more. Barbaro's jockey gets treated like a hero for being able to stop the colt in 18-20 seconds, but Ann gets blasted for not stopping in 20 when there was a fence in her path that she would have crashed?

Pony+ an inch
May. 1, 2007, 11:58 AM
I thought the H/J crowd on this board could be bad; I have never been so thoroughly disgusted with this many people at one time--and online, no less!

Just consider:
It's public alright, but anything you say online you should be willing to say in public to that person's face. It's a hard lesson to learn, and granted it took me awhile to grow up and realize it, but there are posters twice my age on here that still haven't figured it out. I'd like to see you guys go up and tell Amy it was all her fault. If we were all gathered in a room, I'd spit on the floor at the feet of some of you posters. Disgusting. Have you no shame?

edited for the sake of getting to the heart of the matter IMO. I am still utterly appalled by the whole matter of this thread more than I am by the accident itself.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 12:01 PM
I did an interesting experiment. I watched the video of Barbaro and timed from the moment that it became obvious that the jockey was trying to pull him up ( which would have been a couple of seconds at very least from the moment the actual event happened.) til the time that Barbaro began to come to a stop. The video did not go all the way to the moment when the horse actually stopped as the jockey jumped off. Adding 2 seconds for the jockey to realize how bad the problem was plus another at least three seconds that I didn't see but remember from another video, it would have been 14-15 seconds from the time Barbaro took the first bad step til he got slowed to the point where the jockey could jump off. Let's give this rider a break, folks. She didn't have the luxury of an open track in front of her and she did have a horse every bit as determined to go on as Barbaro, maybe more. Barbaro's jockey gets treated like a hero for being able to stop the colt in 18-20 seconds, but Ann gets blasted for not stopping in 20 when there was a fence in her path that she would have crashed?


You must not have seen the video....the rider had plenty of open space to pull up...she had to make a turn to the next jump for god's sake. The horse was not traveling anywhere near the speed of the race horse...infact the horse made it clear he wanted to stop....which was clear when she crossed the finish and stopped driving him forward. He stopped quite quickly on his own. She did NOT have a horse "every bit as determined to go"

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 12:01 PM
I thought the H/J crowd on this board could be bad; I have never been so thoroughly disgusted with this many people at one time--and online, no less! Here's my brief and blunt opinion:

BUTT OUT--you weren't there, so go twiddle your thumbs and do something else than press the space bar with them.
OH YEAH--I'm sure you all ride advanced, I'm sure you're all as experienced as Amy Tryon and could ride Le Samuri far far better than she ever could. Screw it, you can't, so keep dreaming and keep your mouth shut.
WE GET it--it was a tragic accident all-round. It's one thing to say sheesh, poor guy, he's got a heart to get through and another to be all OMfg11!! Amy is totally ruining him!!11 It's all her fault! She's a bad rider!
DO YOU KNOW--exactly what slander is? I'm not saying it's on this thread but boy you guys are getting on that line...
THE HORSEWORLD--still exists outside of the damn computer! It's not hard to identify people on these boards if you do enough research, and if I was Amy Tryon, and I ever met some of you people, I would either punch you or make sure you at least knew what opinion I had of you.
GROW UP--and move on. Some of you are SO UNWILLING to acknowledge other possibilities other than omg, it's no excuse--it's her fault etc. etc.
DON'T--go passing the allmighty savior's judgement when you most certainly don't even reach George Morris God status. Get it together and if you're going to comment on the negative, be constructive--it's something that's severly lacking here on COTH.
GIVER HER THE EFFING BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT--PARTICULARLY as she has an impressive record before her. I'm sure that all of you are so PERFECT and so SINLESS that this mistake must be the downfall of all mankind! OH WOE is everyone and everyhorse! Give me a break. I don't care HOW you interpret that video, but all of you have most definately made a mistake. And I'm betting they're a hell of lot bigger than Amy's.
SO SHUT UP--and think about it. Move on. You can't publicly denounce a person based on one error, accidental or not.

And don't give me this crap that this is public discussion. It's public alright, but anything you say online you should be willing to say in public to that person's face. It's a hard lesson to learn, and granted it took me awhile to grow up and realize it, but there are posters twice my age on here that still haven't figured it out. I'd like to see you guys go up and tell Amy it was all her fault. If we were all gathered in a room, I'd spit on the floor at the feet of some of you posters. Disgusting. Have you no shame?

You throw more gas on the open flames?? :eek:

fourhorses
May. 1, 2007, 12:02 PM
Imho, this story hasn't been "squelched"(it's all here, as much as has been reported, with a video to boot, my advice digest the facts, stay away from the bias of people and make your own decision), and if everyone would just put in their POV(which they are by rights entitled to) and then agree to disagree, that would be fine. Defending your opinion is fine too, but now it's starting to be taken too far.
But this setting up of camps and then volleying back and forth at each other (I defend neither side, just as I choose to neither defend nor vilify Ms. Tryon -- it isn't really my place to do so) isn't coming to any good.

Is it helping the horse to recover?
Is it really helping the eventing or this BB community?
Is it making each and every one of us a better rider/horseman? (well, certainly not the snarkiness against each other coming from both factions)

Rather, perhaps we should all try a proactive, rather than reactive response to this since we all feel so strongly.

Ja Da Dee
May. 1, 2007, 12:03 PM
I think the problem here is the misunderstanding between the two "sides" here. It seems that the strong supporters are saying that what happened was ok.

Interesting how everyone interprets things differently. It appears to me that no one is saying she made the right choice (hind sight being what it is), but some (myself included) are defending her decision because only she was in the irons, and based on years of having a stellar reputation for horsemanship, some people think that maybe we should cut her a break and forgive her one bad decision that she will most likely regret for a long time. Others appear to think that she mad a bad decision, and should be drilled into the carpet for not stopping, completely dismiss those years of a good reputation, and horsemanship, because she is obvously a horrid person as well as a horrible horseperson.

JMO

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 12:05 PM
Interesting how everyone interprets things differently. It appears to me that no one is saying she made the right choice (hind sight being what it is), but some (myself included) are defending her decision because only she was in the irons, and based on years of having a stellar reputation for horsemanship, some people think that maybe we should cut her a break and forgive her one bad decision that she will most likely regret for a long time. Others appear to think that she mad a bad decision, and should be drilled into the carpet for not stopping, completely dismiss those years of a good reputation, and horsemanship, because she is obvously a horrid person as well as a horrible horseperson.

JMO


As the say in hollywood "you're only as good as your last picture"

InVA
May. 1, 2007, 12:07 PM
to grow up and realize it, but there are posters twice my age on here that still haven't figured it out. I'd like to see you guys go up and tell Amy it was all her fault. If we were all gathered in a room, I'd spit on the floor at the feet of some of you posters. Disgusting. Have you no shame?

I haven't read anything about it being Amy's FAULT. the injury occured. We all saw it on the video. The debate here, in my opinion, is, what if any, penalty there should be for riding THROUGH what was an injury or distress on the part of the horse.

is there an acceptable level of injury or distress? something where the horse isn't quite right but you just keep kicking on? interesting debate.

Ja Da Dee
May. 1, 2007, 12:09 PM
As the say in hollywood "you're only as good as your last picture"


But don't you think that that's pretty sad and pathetic statement? One mistake, and they are ready to hang you. It's not like she noticed him gimp in her warmup, and rode him anyway risking a breakdown.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 12:09 PM
I thought the H/J crowd on this board could be bad; I have never been so thoroughly disgusted with this many people at one time--and online, no less! Here's my brief and blunt opinion

You do realize, I hope, that replies like these contribute to the very trainwreckiness that it seems you are trying to avoid?


Let's give this rider a break, folks. She didn't have the luxury of an open track in front of her and she did have a horse every bit as determined to go on as Barbaro, maybe more. Barbaro's jockey gets treated like a hero for being able to stop the colt in 18-20 seconds, but Ann gets blasted for not stopping in 20 when there was a fence in her path that she would have crashed?

longride, while it certainly can be difficult to stop a determined horse on XC, I think it's pretty obvious from the video that, for whatever reason, she was not trying to stop the horse.

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 12:10 PM
A mistake...a mistake...a mistake

Everyone keeps refering to this as a mistake, well another living being is crippled....not from her decision to continue but who can say that the situation was not made worse or could have a potentially worse outcome as a result of continuing on course when damage was done.


Her continuing on course is NOT a mistake...it was a decision she made. Going off course is a mistake...pushing a very tired, and lame horse over another jump and through to the finish is not a mistake...it was a very bad choice/decision...but not a mistake.

So you have never made a mistake in regards to your horsemanship before? Never jumped a horse too much? Never overfaced a horse? Never pushed a horse that in hindsight realized was a mistake?

If you ride and definitely if you compete you are taking a calculated risk every time you swing into the saddle. No matter how you prep you can not guarentee that both of you are going to be crossing the finish line or going home. A hole in the ground, a misstep going into the water, a bobble, and for one of you it is all over. That is the nature of the sport and riding in general.

What you are basically saying is that she had malicious intent in regards to this. You are declaring that she not only realized her horse was injuried, understood the severity, disregarded said injury and pushed the horse to finish. All for placings.

If you can't rationalized a calculated risk every step you make you shouldn't be in the saddle. And to be completely blunt sometimes you do calculate incorrectly.

I am not saying anything about this accident as I am not ready to jump to conclusion b/c of hysterical railbirds. This is too serious to form a judgment in such a rash manner.

But if it much easier for you to get on your high horse, watch a video and make a judgement faster than the FEI sanctioning body than have at it.

NO ONE is discrediting or minimizing the horse's wellbeing or the fact that a horse has been injuried. What others are attempting to express is the that we should allow some time for justice to prevail and a decision to be made by those that are paid to do it before coming to our own conclusion.

citymouse
May. 1, 2007, 12:12 PM
I am not going to comment on AT. She does not deserve my thoughts. It is the job of the FEI to deal with her.

Le Samurai however has gained my highest respect. He is the epitome of courage and trust that our equine partners have. The elite athletes at the **** or World Cup level must have total faith that their riders will not ask them to do anything that they are not capable of doing.

These horses will gallop until they drop, jump until they break, all to please the human on their back. A less generous and brave horse will set its own limits, but not an elite equine athlete. Yes, they must love their job. But, without a rider, a horse will not jump the Rolex fences. He does it because he is asked to, not because it is a natural instinct.

However, TB's are bred to race and Barbaro would have kept racing, but for Prado's superhuman efforts to pull him up, beginning THE VERY STRIDE after his leg broke. (For those who say that a rider cannot tell immediately, watch the video of the Preakness in slow motion. Edgar Prado was going for the second leg of the Triple Crown on the favorite and yet he reacted on the very next stride to get Barbaro stopped.)

Riders of these special horses owe them a higher level of care, since the horses will not stop on their own, if their riders continue to ask them to gallop or jump.

Le Samurai is a hero. I get goosebumps just thinking about his bravery jumping that last jump, three legged, in pain, and exhausted. Just because his rider asked him to.

For all these horses do for us, we owe them more than second class consideration. Their welfare should come before EVERYTHING. And I mean EVERYTHING. One more jump, one more stride, one more step.

AT was doing more than riding Le Samurai; she was representing a sport which has a dicey reputation in the eyes of animal rights activists, anyway. And she is/was a role model of thousands of children who aspire to ride like her, but who now question the morals and goals of those at the top levels. She probably also has sponsors who are now in an awkward position.

Riders at the top are not just going for a gallop in the park, they have many levels of responsibilities. She hurt more than a noble horse. She has a lot to answer for.

But, first she has to answer to her horse. He will probably be the first to forgive her because that is his nature.


I am sure this has been stated before thru all of these pages ~ but after reading your post here Lord Helpus ~ I have tears in my eyes!

I hope people on this board will read your post, pause for a moment of deep thought and see just why we surround ourselves with these noble creatures!

Thank You For Your Words!

Pony+ an inch
May. 1, 2007, 12:14 PM
You throw more gas on the open flames?? :eek:

I did go back in edit actually very shortly after you quoted--while I stand by what I said in the orginal post, I decided to cut part of it to get to the main point of my post. I have a rather bad habit of digression... Anywho feel free to edit your quoting if you want to "add water," to carry the metaphor.

I believe this current thread should be locked and civil debate monitored a little more closely. I typed my original post in rage; I'm sure other posters are feeling just as passionate. Why not let things simmer before building a more productive and relatively controllable fire?

InVA, I'm curious to see what FEI finds. I could see a warning and perhaps a fine being reasonable and the ultimate end result... I really can't say on anything else; how the FEI officials are going to deal and discuss the matter is beyond my psychic powers lol.

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 12:15 PM
But don't you think that that's pretty sad and pathetic statement? One mistake, and they are ready to hang you. It's not like she noticed him gimp in her warmup, and rode him anyway risking a breakdown.

I agree. George Morris seems to have lived down his own tragedies a time or two. I don't think that statement is at all correct for most in the horseworld and serious horsepeople.

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 12:17 PM
And i don't think people are realizing that ALL horse sports are attacked by animal rights activists. They are just as likely to show up at a hunter show as an event. And for all those that keep making this statement are you at HT and 3days where you see them? Now I haven't been in eventing for my whole life but I have yet to see any animal activists and being in the DC area I am pretty much in the hotbed of activists in general.

Quinn
May. 1, 2007, 12:23 PM
Lord Helpus, thank you for that.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 12:25 PM
As the say in hollywood "you're only as good as your last picture"


What I am trying to get accross is that this discussion is based on the last bit of horsemanship she performed....which in my opinion was un-acceptable.

We are talking about this one incident...not all her previous performances. Do I agree with my statement...no not really but merely trying to point out that people are here in this topic to discuss her "last picture"...so to speak...

JER
May. 1, 2007, 12:38 PM
Every incident is different. Every incident feels different.

For all of you crowing about Barbaro, what about Pine Island or Horatio Nelson? Pine Island suffered a fatal injury in last year's Breeders' Cup Distaff -- her rider felt her bobble, wasn't sure if what happened or if it was serious, then the mare fell and somersaulted over. Would she have survived if the rider had started to pull her up a few strides earlier?

Horatio Nelson was a favored horse in last year's Derby (the English one). Concerns over his soundness surfaced before the race -- the start was held while the jockey trotted him around in front of his trainer and then for the racecourse vet. They decided to let the horse start. In the second furlong, Horatio Nelson's rider pulled him up. The horse had shattered his cannon bone, sesamoids and fetlock. He was euthanized shortly thereafter. His rider said the horse felt a bit flat but improved the more he trotted him. Apparently, the vet and trainer agreed. Several very knowledgeable people made a mistake with this horse and none of them had any interest in the horse finishing the race anything other than sound.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 12:41 PM
yes but Amy's horse was OBVIOUSLY lame.....unlike the horse that trotted up sound BEFORE the race...a different matter all together.

vineyridge
May. 1, 2007, 12:54 PM
This is not bashing, but a new point to be considered.

AT is the ultimate team rider, always has been. And she's been doing it for years. At the WEG, Debbie McDonald rode a complete test on Bettina, then withdrew because she had felt something wrong during the team go. But the team needed her score, so she finished.

In Mark Phillips's statement, he admitted riding one of his horses over two fences to the finish at Burghley when it was lame. If that's the kind of coaching we have for our team, is it possible that finish at all costs for the team has seeped so into the unconsciousness of the riders that the finish line becomes the primary consideration? Even when the team isn't involved? You're tired, you're not thinking clearly, and you can see the finish line.

Something else to think about.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 01:00 PM
JER, I would imagine we've all had the personal experience of feeling a horse take an odd step and then going another few strides trying to feel if something is really wrong.

And most of us have also had the "Holy crap, what was THAT??!" moments when a horse really goes off, either because he's yanked off a shoe or really hurt himself, and you know in an instant that you need to stop right away. Obviously that was the case with Barbaro and also with Royal Kaliber, but not so with the other horses you mentioned.

None of us, obviously, know how this injury felt to the person in the irons. But I do think it's worth noting that there are two kinds of "gee, that felt weird" scenarios -- one where you *think* something might be wrong, but aren't sure if it is or if you imagined it, and the other where you know darn well and need to stop that train ASAP.

Sebastian
May. 1, 2007, 01:03 PM
yes but Amy's horse was OBVIOUSLY lame.....unlike the horse that trotted up sound BEFORE the race...a different matter all together.


DUDE!!! You need to stop turning this into something it's NOT!!! She did NOT plan for this horse to get hurt. There is NO malice aforethought here... She made a judgement call in the heat of the moment. Right or wrong, she made it.

Please take your PETA-party elsewhere.

Seb

InVA
May. 1, 2007, 01:07 PM
This is not bashing, but a new point to be considered.

is it possible that finish at all costs for the team has seeped so into the unconscious of the riders that the finish line becomes the primary consideration? Even when the team isn't involved?

Something else to think about.

I'm glad I'm not an owner. I pay for my own horse. But if someone is there ready to buy you another horse, I guess they are suddenly dispensable?

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 01:11 PM
Sebastian, where did snoopy say that Amy PLANNED for the horse to get hurt??? Come on, blowing things up out of proportion -- on EITHER side -- doesn't do any good.

The horse looked very, very lame on the video, so much so that apparently the announcer expected her to pull up. (According to what someone posted here -- I didn't watch that video.)

None of us knows why Amy didn't pull up, but it doesn't do anyone any good to deny the obvious -- that the horse definitely was lame.

I think it's quite possible to not be part of a lynch mob, but acknowledge that, yes, this does look quite bad. I'm sure at some point there will be more explanation for what happened... til then, we all just have to wait and hold judgment.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 01:13 PM
seb:

You have done nothing to contribute to this debate/discussion except try and get peoples backs up...if it is not relevant...take somewhere else...dude.
This has nothing to do with Peta...it is about my interpretation of FEI rule...atricle143 section 1.5...dude. What she did in my opinion and which I am debating here...dude...is against the rules....and again, in my opinion....unacceptable behaviour...dude.

Anthing else...dude?

Read the rule and then come back to me with anything WORTH discussion...DUDE.

poltroon
May. 1, 2007, 01:14 PM
I haven't read anything about it being Amy's FAULT. the injury occured. We all saw it on the video. The debate here, in my opinion, is, what if any, penalty there should be for riding THROUGH what was an injury or distress on the part of the horse.

is there an acceptable level of injury or distress? something where the horse isn't quite right but you just keep kicking on? interesting debate.

Well, there's no value in finishing x-c at Rolex with a lame horse. The score doesn't count for anything if the horse doesn't jog sound the next day - and the ground juries are fairly picky.

The ground on a cross-country course is not groomed sand, and horses do often take missteps and then are fine afterwards. It's easy to look at this blurry video, see the stumble, know that the horse was lame after he pulled up, and say she should've pulled up right at the stumble. But I also remember many years ago watching Biko have a dramatic stumble in the middle of the Badminton course, do an incredible recovery, and end up finishing in third overall.

I think it is obvious that Amy did not think the horse had sustained a serious injury at first, and that she would not have continued if she had thought so. I can't tell you how many times I've had a sick feeling in my stomach around horses, that there was something I should've done differently, and I imagine she's feeling that now. My best wishes for the horse's recovery and to all his connections.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 01:23 PM
seb:

You have done nothing to contribute to this debate/discussion except try and get peoples backs up...if it is not relevant...take somewhere else...dude.

And snotty responses like that, dude, don't exactly make the conversation very productive either, do they?

LisaB
May. 1, 2007, 01:23 PM
Has anyone heard how he is doing? Are they keeping it under wraps because of the investigation? My wee little brain is spinning on how he is.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 01:28 PM
And snotty responses like that, dude, don't exactly make the conversation very productive either, do they?


ERIN


If he cares to dicuss the rule I quoted, how it is relevant to this discussion, and respectfully at that, I will be happy, to reply with out snot.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 01:35 PM
Here's a thought, snoopy -- instead of doing your part to contribute to the problem, how about being part of the solution and taking the high road?

citymouse
May. 1, 2007, 01:35 PM
Has anyone heard how he is doing? Are they keeping it under wraps because of the investigation? My wee little brain is spinning on how he is.

I think that is what we would all be interested to hear!

We get it ~ 16+ pages ~ some of us think she made a horrible error and some here support her, WE DON"T NEED TO START ATTACKING EACH OTHER!

Any word on the horse?

RugBug
May. 1, 2007, 01:36 PM
I'm glad I'm not an owner. I pay for my own horse. But if someone is there ready to buy you another horse, I guess they are suddenly dispensable?

Could people stick to facts and not try to assume anything about motivations?

We can form fairly educated opinions based on the facts...we cannot, however, form any educated opinion based on assumptions.


I think it's quite possible to not be part of a lynch mob, but acknowledge that, yes, this does look quite bad. I'm sure at some point there will be more explanation for what happened... til then, we all just have to wait and hold judgment.

I agree.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 01:37 PM
Here's a thought, snoopy -- instead of doing your part to contribute to the problem, how about being part of the solution and taking the high road?


Unfortunately it is a road less traveled...but yes I will take the next detour...

solargal
May. 1, 2007, 01:37 PM
The answer to that is no. A horse who runs off the pace like Barbaro rates off the leaders (conserves at crusing speed) before entering the stretch and accelerating to top speed. Think freight train.

The gate used horses are at a stand still and when they open horses are gaining momentum, while they are more lurched onto their forehandsd they are most certainly not at full hilt.

Just as a train taking off, it takes quite sometime to pick up that speed. But when you do you achieve that speed, or greater speed, it takes twice as much force and distance to stop it.

A horse weighs about 1500 lbs, when you apply distance, speed and immediate breaks, those 1500 lbs triples. That is a lot of force on a leg that is shot and on bad footing.

Hence why my orginal comments were along the these lines.


Let me guess you are a jockey? That is complete and utter bs. Three jumps out of the gates horses are going 35mph or more. He went an 1/8 before he broke down. It is no way easier to pull up a horse in the beginning stages of a race that is extremely competitive and full of adrenaline, than a horse that breaks down to a jog like this one did.

Madison
May. 1, 2007, 01:38 PM
I was at Rolex, and saw it on the big screen in the field, which offered a more clear view than the YouTube video. It clearly looked like she had room to pull up when he trotted, and that pulling up was in order. But, I cannot guess how it felt, AND, it also seems more clear to me that she had nothing to gain by continuing to the finish if she had a clue that he was truly that injured, and SO much to lose -- not only the horse's career, but also her own personal safety on the landing side if he's hurt and can't hold up over the jump. So, despite how it looked, I have to assume she couldn't really have realized how bad it was, or she wouldn't have had incentive to continue. Any other motive seems completely illogical to me given what was at stake. I cannot imagine how bad she must be feeling this week, and feel very sorry for her - it was the wrong decision in hindsight, but that doesn't mean she knew that at the time.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 01:38 PM
Sannois: Your threads bare the same remark over and over again. How many people can you keep calling perfect? Maybe you have a complex about perfection. Or perhaps you have nothing left to say that holds any merit.

Don't you recognize sarcasm when you see it?
As far as merit bashing a rider on pure speculation has no merit in this case. :no:

Equibrit
May. 1, 2007, 01:39 PM
FEI to investigate Amy Tryon incident

Pippa Roome, H&H eventing editor
1 May, 2007
The International Equestrian Federation (FEI) has confirmed to H&H that it is investigating an incident concerning American rider Amy Tryon at the Rolex Kentucky three-day event last weekend.
According to a statement released by organisers, Amy has been referred to the FEI judicial committee following an "alleged abuse" incident at Kentucky.

Amy, who won bronze at last year's World Equestrian Games, led the dressage on Le Samurai, but the horse went lame before the final cross-country fence. The pair finished the course, when Le Samurai was found to have "lost the supporting ligaments in his left front leg", according to event vet Catherine Kohn.

Amy issued a statement, saying: "I am totally devastated about the injury he [Le Samurai] sustained but cannot comment further pending a review by the FEI. I'd give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse, Le Samurai is very special to me."

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 01:42 PM
Don't you recognize sarcasm when you see it?
As far as merit bashing a rider on pure speculation has no merit in this case. :no:


There is no bashing...just what is evident on the video, from the spectators, the announcer, the ground jury, etc....

Stating the obvious is not bashing. It is what it is....

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 01:48 PM
Has anyone heard how he is doing? Are they keeping it under wraps because of the investigation? My wee little brain is spinning on how he is.

I've looked everywhere for info on Le Samurai - not a peep from anyone. Unless you count the variety of rumors. It scares the crap out of me that everything is so very quiet about his status.

I can only hope that he is currently comfortable.

Why on earth is there no official information coming out of our national and international governing bodies and organizations? There are so many things they can/could tell us that would quell the rumors and give the eventing community and the animal loving public at large some peace of mind! That it is being handled carefully, with the utmost respect to all involved, in the best interests of the competition horse, and with due process. They can/could release information that would be helpful without violating anyone's right to privacy. It's just not that hard!

I am begging for our NGB and orgs to face this head on and deal with this professionally!

SCFarm

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 01:49 PM
The reason I take part in this dicussion is one of passion

I am passionate about the horse, the sport, the riders, the rules, the reprecussions, and the lasting effect this will have on all of the above.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 01:49 PM
I did go back in edit actually very shortly after you quoted--while I stand by what I said in the orginal post, I decided to cut part of it to get to the main point of my post. I have a rather bad habit of digression... Anywho feel free to edit your quoting if you want to "add water," to carry the metaphor.

I believe this current thread should be locked and civil debate monitored a little more closely. I typed my original post in rage; I'm sure other posters are feeling just as passionate. Why not let things simmer before building a more productive and relatively controllable fire?

InVA, I'm curious to see what FEI finds. I could see a warning and perhaps a fine being reasonable and the ultimate end result... I really can't say on anything else; how the FEI officials are going to deal and discuss the matter is beyond my psychic powers lol.
really disagreeing with you just thinking that there must be some way to squelch all this finger pointing and holier than thou I would have never have done that Amy bashing. Nothing more!
;) Why don't we all just wait for the final ruling. Then there can be another 10 threads about that. :winkgrin:

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 01:58 PM
There is no bashing...just what is evident on the video, from the spectators, the announcer, the ground jury, etc....

Stating the obvious is not bashing. It is what it is....

That Video proves nothing, Are you clairvoyant? Do you know what went through the womans head? Thats what seems to be going on here, pure speculation. It is your opinion based on what you saw, nothing more.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 02:03 PM
what is going on here is that Amy rode an obviously tired, lame horse over a jump and across the finish line....there is nothing physic about it...it is there to see. Unless you choose not to see it. Then that is another story all together.:eek:

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:06 PM
I've looked everywhere for info on Le Samurai - not a peep from anyone. Unless you count the variety of rumors. It scares the crap out of me that everything is so very quiet about his status.

LLDM, with all due respect, even if we were being given hourly updates, that wouldn't change anything. Either the injury is something that will heal with time, or it isn't. If they put him down, we'll hear about it -- til then, no news is good news, and I think it's logical to assume that they are still evaluating him and doing everything they can for him. He's obviously in good hands.


Why on earth is there no official information coming out of our national and international governing bodies and organizations? There are so many things they can/could tell us that would quell the rumors and give the eventing community and the animal loving public at large some peace of mind! That it is being handled carefully, with the utmost respect to all involved, in the best interests of the competition horse, and with due process. They can/could release information that would be helpful without violating anyone's right to privacy. It's just not that hard!

I am begging for our NGB and orgs to face this head on and deal with this professionally!

In this case, it's the FEI's ball, not the NGB's. And they HAVE released official information -- two press releases now from the FEI, if I'm not mistaken.

I guess I'm just not understanding what it is you think they should be providing. We knew on Saturday via a statement from the presiding vet what the injury was, and by Sunday (I think) the FEI had announced it was investigating. We know he's being treated at Haygard-McGee, and Amy herself even issued a statement. Plus, she was DQ'ed on Saturday, which is, in its own way, a statement that the FEI doesn't approve of her conduct.

Obviously, the FEI needs to investigate before making any other announcements or decisions, but I don't think that will take too long -- I'm sure we'll hear more in the next few days.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 02:07 PM
what is going on here is that Amy rode an obviously tired, lame horse over a jump and across the finish line....there is nothing physic about it...it is there to see. Unless you choose not to see it. Then that is another story all together.:eek:

entitled to your opinion, Lets just wait and see what the FEI outcome is.
Have a nice day~ :yes:

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:08 PM
what is going on here is that Amy rode an obviously tired, lame horse over a jump and across the finish line....there is nothing physic about it...it is there to see. Unless you choose not to see it. Then that is another story all together.:eek:

I believe Sannois' point is that unless YOU were in the irons, you don't know what was "obvious" to the rider and what wasn't.

As I said before, I think most people can agree that it looks pretty bad... but most reasonable people would also wait to pass judgment until getting more information.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 02:08 PM
If you care to debate the FEI rules regarding this matter I will be happy to respond. The matter has be refered to the FEI by the ground jury...they saw something worth escallating. Read the rule that she is ALLEGEDLY in violation of....then I will bring myself to expend the energy on your posts directed at me. In case you are not familiar with the rules....I will once again...direct you to Article 143 (the first paragraph) and in particular, section 1.5....
I patiently and respectfully await your response....should there be one.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 02:11 PM
I believe Sannois' point is that unless YOU were in the irons, you don't know what was "obvious" to the rider and what wasn't.

As I said before, I think most people can agree that it looks pretty bad... but most reasonable people would also wait to pass judgment until getting more information.

exactly my point. Snoopy I dont know what it is you are after. :no:

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 02:11 PM
I believe Sannois' point is that unless YOU were in the irons, you don't know what was "obvious" to the rider and what wasn't.

As I said before, I think most people can agree that it looks pretty bad... but most reasonable people would also wait to pass judgment until getting more information.


You cannot tell me that she felt nothing?!!! This was not a mis-step this was LAME. All the talk of her experience should also lead one to believe she felt this was somewhat serious.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:12 PM
Snoopy, honestly, you need to knock it the hell off if you want to continue to participate on this thread.

snoopy
May. 1, 2007, 02:14 PM
why am I being spanked ERIN, for debating the RULE and what is clear on video...which you have said yourself.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 02:14 PM
You cannot tell me that she felt nothing?!!! This was not a mis-step this was LAME. All the talk of her experience should also lead one to believe she felt this was somewhat serious.

I give. :no:

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:22 PM
You cannot tell me that she felt nothing?!!!

I didn't say she felt nothing, did I?

What I actually said is that none of us knows what was "obvious" to her. I am pretty willing to bet she didn't think, "Gosh, that felt like he just blew his suspensory. But it's only 50 yards to the finish and I'll just keep going."

But other than that rather obvious assumption, I just don't see that anyone can really project what she was or wasn't thinking -- either in a positive or negative sense.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:23 PM
why am I being spanked ERIN, for debating the RULE and what is clear on video...which you have said yourself.

BTW, my name is Erin, not ERIN.

Because you are not discussing what was clear on video. You are making assumptions as to what the rider thought and felt, none of which is apparent from a video. And because you are doing so in a combative and disrespectful manner.

I'm not going to babysit this thread all day -- I've got a horse to ride. Either play nice, or don't play.

LisaB
May. 1, 2007, 02:25 PM
I know about the press releases but ...
can you imagine if the press didn't get hourly information on Barbaro or Royal Kaliber? Not saying that we are as famous as horse racing or show jumping but the press needs to be kept at bay. This includes (gulp) the animal rights activists. If it's not shown to the general public that this horse is absolutely totally completely being cared for, then threads like this will rear their ugly heads on the other internet boards that actually mean to do harm to the sport and to the riders.
With the immediate DQ AND couple that with no regular intervals of information is a recipe for disaster as we see on this thread. Maybe we are missing a website for the vet clinic that would show this information?
I am concerned for the horse
I am concerned for the sport

LisaB
May. 1, 2007, 02:27 PM
And Erin or is it ERIN, smack the shit out snoopy. Gives a great cartoon dog a bad name.

monstrpony
May. 1, 2007, 02:27 PM
high road? What high road?? I don't see no stinkin' high road!!

snoopy:

R-E-A-D C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y F-O-R C-O-N-T-E-N-T

No one is questioning that the horse looked, and the proved to be, lame.

What remains to be considered, and can not be known at this time--at least not by us--is the rider's rationalization for continuing.

Trust the governing organizations to get to the bottom of it, or find a new sport. It's that simple.

One Star
May. 1, 2007, 02:29 PM
Maybe not, but your crappy writing (errors in grammar, spelling, and punctuation) helps discredit you.

I'm sorry but that was totally uncalled for. Rudeness also discredits you as an intelligent voice to be heard.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:32 PM
I know about the press releases but ...
can you imagine if the press didn't get hourly information on Barbaro or Royal Kaliber?

I don't recall there being hourly updates on RK either. They announced what the injury was, but really, after that, what more is there to announce?

Barbaro was different as he got whisked off to surgery and whatnot. There was actual stuff to report there.

But I just can't imagine that there's very much "breaking news" to report on a suspensory. "It's 2:30 PM, and yes, the suspensory is still injured!" :confused:

I'm sure when the vets have a better idea what the prognosis is, there will be an announcement. But I would imagine that's not necessarily something they know today.

Doodle
May. 1, 2007, 02:34 PM
I'm sorry but that was totally uncalled for. Rudeness also discredits you as an intelligent voice to be heard.

thank you ! Some of you sound like idiots!

WHY would you defend someone who obviously just F'd up? If I made a bad judgement call that damaged expensive company property I would be in trouble career wise too...And no one would feel sorry for me. Why shouldn't the same principle apply to "horse professionals"...? :no:

Sandra6500
May. 1, 2007, 02:35 PM
okay I'm coming into this WAY late... And I don't event, but I'm curious from those that do, especially some of the higher level stuff...

First off... I watched the video. Looks like the horse is REALLY off between second 18-20. Before that he cross cantered a bunch so its harder to tell. She hops off at second 38.

Again keeping in mind that I don't event- is it reasonable to expect someone to realize not only that the horse is off but that the horse is REALLY off and make the decision to pull up in time to avoid the last jump? I would think it would take you at least 5 seconds or so to REALLY realize that he was off instead of just taking a few wrong stpes, throwing a show... Then by the time you pulled him up you'd bascially be on top of the fence.

Also who here thinks that the horse really injured himself further going over the last jump? To me it looks like the injury happened before and he certainly doesn't look worse after the last fence. So while the last jump probably wasn't good for the horse to do it probably did no further damage.

Again keep in mind that I'm not being snotty... I'm genuinely interested in the response as I know next to nothing about eventing.

JenJ
May. 1, 2007, 02:40 PM
But I just can't imagine that there's very much "breaking news" to report on a suspensory. "It's 2:30 PM, and yes, the suspensory is still injured!" :confused:

I'm sure when the vets have a better idea what the prognosis is, there will be an announcement. But I would imagine that's not necessarily something they know today.

I think most of us would be appeased, for now, to be told that at a minimum he is expected to recover to enjoy a happy and lengthy retirement, as someone's beloved pasture ornament. Whether or not there is any chance of him continuing as an event horse is unlikely to be known for a year or two.

vineyridge
May. 1, 2007, 02:45 PM
Where does the conclusion that the injury is *only* a suspensory come from? There are so many different ligaments in that area, and any of them could be involved. :(

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:45 PM
WHY would you defend someone who obviously just F'd up?

Some are defending, some are crucifying, and some are saying, "Gosh, that looked bad, but I'll wait to hear more before I pass judgment either way."


Again keeping in mind that I don't event- is it reasonable to expect someone to realize not only that the horse is off but that the horse is REALLY off and make the decision to pull up in time to avoid the last jump?

Leaving aside the aspect of making a decision, you've always got the option to pull the horse away from the fence, unless you're in the middle of a combination. It's not like you'd run into the jump -- there's room to pass it off to the side, within the galloping lane. (Unless this was somehow oddly configured, but I don't recall that it was.)

I'd say if you're more than 3-5 strides out, you're not committed.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 02:48 PM
I think most of us would be appeased, for now, to be told that at a minimum he is expected to recover to enjoy a happy and lengthy retirement, as someone's beloved pasture ornament. Whether or not there is any chance of him continuing as an event horse is unlikely to be known for a year or two.

It's possible they may not know at this point if he can recover enough to be a pasture ornament, which is why they may not have announced anything to that effect.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 02:53 PM
In hindsight, people agree that Amy should have pulled up as soon as the horse stumbled. In hindsight, Amy's not doing so is clearly a mistake. But "mistake" and "bad decision" are not mutually exclusive terms. Making a bad, split-second, decision was the mistake. And I don't think that this one mistake offsets all of Amy's other accomplishments and contributions to the sport. We aren't talking about a pattern of behavior or a premeditated decision. We are talking about one quick decision, made under pressure and at speed, that will haunt Amy forever.

To those who think Amy made a conscious, informed choice to push a badly injured horse over the finish line -- let's think about this logically, shall we? If Amy knew the horse was injured, then she also knew that he would not pass the final inspection or jump stadium. There is no more glory in crossing the finish line on an injured horse and withdrawing or being spun at the jog than retiring one fence before the finish. If she had to know, as some of you claim, that Sparky was injured, then she had absolutely no incentive at all to continue.

But if she just felt that something was wrong, and didn't know what it was -- well, lots of people have posted about what might lead a rider to keep going under those circumstances. I don't claim to know what was going through her mind. Of course you can play it safe by checking every time your horse takes a funny step. But that is not the approach that gets riders around a four star course and selected for teams. Cautious riding is not rewarded at the upper levels and certainly not by the selectors. We have all seen other horses take a few funny steps and continue on fine.

If this had happened last year, only a fraction of the people here would have seen it. If it had happened 10 years ago, only a fraction of the people here would even have heard about it. But it happened now, in the internet age, when bringing the sport to the public, in their houses, opens it up to all kinds of criticisms from people who may or may not know the sport. And if we want the sport to grow and have a larger following and more funding, then we have to address this and accept those criticisms. I get that. But I also think we have to recognize that Amy is not the first rider in our sport to make a very unpopular mistake -- she's just one of the first to do it on live streaming broadband.

This post is too long already, but I will add one more thing. I've made plenty of mistakes while riding, and I'm sure I'll make more in the future. Some of them have led to my getting hurt. But last spring, I made a bad decision while jumping a young horse. He was going well, I was having fun, and I just didn't think when I pointed him at a fence bigger than he had any business jumping. The consequences weren't as high as they could have been. I broke a bone in my ankle, and the horse was plenty scared by the experience. But I felt terribly about it – because I accept that I will make mistakes as a rider, but this was a mistake as a horsewoman. I knew better, and I made a quick, unthinking choice that hurt a horse, and there was nothing I could do to rewind by a few seconds to undo it. Luckily, the people around me were willing to accept it for what it was -- one bad decision that I will never, ever repeat and that I regret very much. Because this mistake was at home schooling, not at a competition, no one else got to comment on it. But I can't imagine that others haven’t been in similar positions – jumping one fence too many at the end of a long XC school, tying a horse unsafely to a trailer, galloping on bad footing... If you are willing to totally condemn Amy as a horsewoman for this one bad decision and its consequences, then you should be willing to condemn yourself or your friends for any similar lapse in judgment, even if you are lucky enough that its outcome is less serious. And putting things that way, it really seems to me that we should be able to say that this was a mistake. It is regretable, and we should be sure that the governing body of the sport does all it can to prevent mistakes like this. But mistakes will happen, and horses will be injured, as long as we train and ride and compete them. And at the end of the day, Amy Tryon is a good rider and a good horsewoman with a long, distinguished record who will live with the consequences of this mistake for a long time. --Jess

RAyers
May. 1, 2007, 02:58 PM
okay I'm coming into this WAY late... And I don't event, but I'm curious from those that do, especially some of the higher level stuff...

First off... I watched the video. Looks like the horse is REALLY off between second 18-20. Before that he cross cantered a bunch so its harder to tell. She hops off at second 38.

Again keeping in mind that I don't event- is it reasonable to expect someone to realize not only that the horse is off but that the horse is REALLY off and make the decision to pull up in time to avoid the last jump? I would think it would take you at least 5 seconds or so to REALLY realize that he was off instead of just taking a few wrong stpes, throwing a show... Then by the time you pulled him up you'd bascially be on top of the fence.

Also who here thinks that the horse really injured himself further going over the last jump? To me it looks like the injury happened before and he certainly doesn't look worse after the last fence. So while the last jump probably wasn't good for the horse to do it probably did no further damage.

Again keep in mind that I'm not being snotty... I'm genuinely interested in the response as I know next to nothing about eventing.


Sandra, you are asking the questions we all are asking. Everything is speculation right now. Almost everyone agrees a bad decison was made given 20/20 hindsight. The reality is that only Amy, Le Samuri, and god (the FEI likes to think they are god), know what really happened, hence why some of us prefer to reserve judgement of the rider directly.

Sometimes it is very hard at a gallop to tell if a horse is off, tired, pissey or blown. On other threads in this forum folks have given their perspective of what it feels like to have a tendon, ligament blow on one or two legs and they do not feel the same.

Reed

Sebastian
May. 1, 2007, 03:00 PM
Really well said, Jess. :)

Seb

ToucheToujour
May. 1, 2007, 03:09 PM
Well said, Jess, well said.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 03:10 PM
LLDM, with all due respect, even if we were being given hourly updates, that wouldn't change anything. Either the injury is something that will heal with time, or it isn't. If they put him down, we'll hear about it -- til then, no news is good news, and I think it's logical to assume that they are still evaluating him and doing everything they can for him. He's obviously in good hands.



In this case, it's the FEI's ball, not the NGB's. And they HAVE released official information -- two press releases now from the FEI, if I'm not mistaken.

I guess I'm just not understanding what it is you think they should be providing. We knew on Saturday via a statement from the presiding vet what the injury was, and by Sunday (I think) the FEI had announced it was investigating. We know he's being treated at Haygard-McGee, and Amy herself even issued a statement. Plus, she was DQ'ed on Saturday, which is, in its own way, a statement that the FEI doesn't approve of her conduct.

Obviously, the FEI needs to investigate before making any other announcements or decisions, but I don't think that will take too long -- I'm sure we'll hear more in the next few days.

Hey Erin, I do understand your point. Here is a copy of a post I made on another thread that might explain more what I think should be happening and why:

There is bloody little information at all - about any of it. Just a youtube video being downloaded all over the world. The rumors are flying. It needs to be addressed.

Here is an EXAMPLE of the type of press release from the FEI/USEF/USEA/some bloody official would say: The incident at the end of AT's XC ride on LS at Rolex is of deep concern to everyone invovled. LS is currently under evaluation at Hagard and all treatment options are being explored. LS is currently resting quietly under 24 hr supervision. The FEI is currently investigating the incident and is in the process of gathering all relevent information. It is their intent to be fair to all parties and, as stated in the the FEI's prime directives, to ensure the welfare of competition horses above and beyond all other concerns. As more information becomes available on the investigation process or LS's medical condition it will be released on www.?????.org.com.net (http://www./?????.org.com.net)

It would at least quell the rumors that LS has been PTS. It would at least give us, the eventing public, a way to reassure non-eventers that the situation is being addressed at the highest levels and in the best interests of the horses and the sport. It would at least tell us where the heck to look for official information. And it would at least show that there is concern for the perception of the public!

It in no way intrudes upon anyone. It's just not that hard to manage to these types of things - so why do our orgs fall down on the job so? People will asked until answered.

If you know where the FEI press releases are, please, please, let me know! I have been unable to find anything on the FEI website, the USEF nor the USEA - all of which have some official standing on this I believe.

I think it was vineyridge who said there needs to be some damage control for ALL concerned. Even if all they do is reiterate the rules which govern these things, express concern for Le Samerai and regret for the incident - it would go a long way to show that they are actively on top of the situation and will pursue it to its conclusion AND use this to make competitions and horses safer.

I know tht both the Chronicle and Horse and Hound have reported what is "officially known" at this point. I guess I just expect more active acknowledgement from those to whom I pay dues (okay not the FEI directly -LOL). But the reputation of US eventing is taking a beating right now, so I would really like some very public assurance that we (organiztion-wise) are policing ourselves properly and care about the welfare of one of our top equine athletes.

Again, itf I have simply been unable to locate the official press releases, would someone please post a link!

SCFarm

arnika
May. 1, 2007, 03:22 PM
I do just want to point out that the only veterinarian quote I have seen so far was to the effect that "he (Le Samurai) has lost the supporting ligaments in his left leg". I noticed the plural use.:(

fuller0819
May. 1, 2007, 03:24 PM
i was there and i also have the video that i purchased on saturday of just the crosscountry segment of the 3 day. le samuri was nothing but lame, he took a misstep off the jump before and he was lame!! she was lucky he didn't go down before he even got to the final jump. i don't know what she was thinking or if the she was to caught up in finishing she didn't realize but that horse was lame up until the last jump and after and even when he locked on to the next jump he was still limping. after he took the last jump it took her about 12 sec. to get off and she just held him and didn't even look at his leg. with me seeing the video i can't see anyway that she couldn't have known it was horrific seeing it and i started crying for that horse as she kept pushing him. he did break to trot and then started cross cantering and switched leads i believe it was 4 times within probably 10 strides, he was hurt and i hate to see this end this wonderful beautiful horses career. i just hope it wasn't intentional because they were in 1st after dressage that it didn't matter and she wanted across the finish to keep their 1st place.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 03:55 PM
Finally, something:



01/05/2007
FEI Statement regarding the investigation into the case of abuse at the CCI 4* Lexington, Kentucky USA

The FEI was notified of an alleged case of abuse which occurred during the CCI 4* Lexington, Kentucky USA on Saturday 28 April involving competitor Amy Tyron (USA) and Le Samurai.

The preliminary investigation was conducted according to the regulations, whereby the Ground Jury met on Saturday 28 April following the cross country to investigate an incident of alleged abuse before fence 34. The Ground Jury collected written statements from the Fence Judges and Sector Steward and reviewed the video as well as interviewing the FEI Veterinary Delegate, Dr. Catherine Kohn. The rider, Amy Tyron, was interviewed on Sunday immediately after the Sunday morning horse inspection and gave her account of the incident. Following the interview, the Ground Jury referred the matter to the Appeal Committee. The Appeal Committee, in full possession of all the written statements and video recording, took the following decision:

According to article 164.4.5 of the FEI General Regulations: “In serious cases, immediate disqualification with one or more horses from a competition or from the whole event with a referral to the Secretary General (for referral to the Judicial Committee)."

Once the FEI has collected all reports and evidence, the case will be submitted to the Tribunal (the former Judicial Committee) and all the relevant evidence will be reviewed prior to any decision being made.

The FEI takes these matters very seriously and endeavours to ensure that the welfare of the horse is a priority.



Thanks to Coreene for finding it. Wish there were something more, but maybe now the USEF and/or USEA will pipe up too.

SCFarm

Judi
May. 1, 2007, 04:04 PM
I was at Rolex, and saw it on the big screen in the field, which offered a more clear view than the YouTube video. It clearly looked like she had room to pull up when he trotted, and that pulling up was in order. But, I cannot guess how it felt, AND, it also seems more clear to me that she had nothing to gain by continuing to the finish if she had a clue that he was truly that injured, and SO much to lose -- not only the horse's career, but also her own personal safety on the landing side if he's hurt and can't hold up over the jump. So, despite how it looked, I have to assume she couldn't really have realized how bad it was, or she wouldn't have had incentive to continue. Any other motive seems completely illogical to me given what was at stake. I cannot imagine how bad she must be feeling this week, and feel very sorry for her - it was the wrong decision in hindsight, but that doesn't mean she knew that at the time.

Thank you Madison... that is exactly what most of us in eventing are saying. She had absolutely no reason to finish if she knew he was off.. none.. zip... she knew she wouldn't be winning... AND she could very well have been risking her and her horses life... and since Amy has shown 20 years of good horsemanship up to this moment those of us who were not in her irons should give her some grace. I also can't imagine what she must be feeling now... she made a very wrong decision but at the time I don't believe her motivation was out of greed or some of the other terrible things people have said about her on this board.

Snoopy... Please understand that people are not defending Amy's decision... We eventers do not treat this lightly... we take it to heart very deeply... and look for ways to keep it from happening again.

I don't know what is motivating you. If you're angry that you feel Amy purposely pushed the horse for inscrupulous reasons.. then I understand your passion and anger.. but what if you are wrong? Couldn't it be that she had a terrible lapse in judgement motivated out of what she felt was the right in that moment? Things are never black and white but shades of gray.

No one on this board is saying that Amy made the right choice. In fact most of us are confused as to why she kept going... and will never know what it felt like from the irons... We just know that she had nothing to gain by pushing a lame horse... nothing. And so we are more open to hear what explanation she had for her lapse of judgement rather then condem her as you are doing.

And I'm sorry... I work in Hollywood.. and believe me if everyone was only as good as thier last picture... well everyone would be out of work.

sigh

Judi
May. 1, 2007, 04:16 PM
BTW, my name is Erin, not ERIN.

Because you are not discussing what was clear on video. You are making assumptions as to what the rider thought and felt, none of which is apparent from a video. And because you are doing so in a combative and disrespectful manner.

I'm not going to babysit this thread all day -- I've got a horse to ride. Either play nice, or don't play.

As always the wonderful calm voice of reason..

You do a great job... its much appreciated.

judi

Coreene
May. 1, 2007, 04:24 PM
Where does this sense of entitlement come from, with people demanding to know all details? It's not your horse! Move on!

BTW, it was an FEI event. Here is the FEI official release on it:

01/05/2007
FEI Statement regarding the investigation into the case of abuse at the CCI 4* Lexington, Kentucky USA

The FEI was notified of an alleged case of abuse which occurred during the CCI 4* Lexington, Kentucky USA on Saturday 28 April involving competitor Amy Tyron (USA) and Le Samurai.

The preliminary investigation was conducted according to the regulations, whereby the Ground Jury met on Saturday 28 April following the cross country to investigate an incident of alleged abuse before fence 34. The Ground Jury collected written statements from the Fence Judges and Sector Steward and reviewed the video as well as interviewing the FEI Veterinary Delegate, Dr. Catherine Kohn. The rider, Amy Tyron, was interviewed on Sunday immediately after the Sunday morning horse inspection and gave her account of the incident. Following the interview, the Ground Jury referred the matter to the Appeal Committee. The Appeal Committee, in full possession of all the written statements and video recording, took the following decision:

According to article 164.4.5 of the FEI General Regulations: “In serious cases, immediate disqualification with one or more horses from a competition or from the whole event with a referral to the Secretary General (for referral to the Judicial Committee)."

Once the FEI has collected all reports and evidence, the case will be submitted to the Tribunal (the former Judicial Committee) and all the relevant evidence will be reviewed prior to any decision being made.

The FEI takes these matters very seriously and endeavours to ensure that the welfare of the horse is a priority.

Gry2Yng
May. 1, 2007, 04:29 PM
If I am ever on trial, there are several people on this thread I would NOT want on my jury.

It is the job of a jury to judge and protect both the rights of society and the individual. If you were on trial, you and society would be thankful for such healthy debate. Ultimately the FEI will lay down judgement and they will do it without being "inside Amy's head". Eventers at that level are EXPECTED to be able to make split second decisions both in order to be competitive and for the sake of their lives and the lives of their horses. Amy is both an upper level eventer and a firefighter. She is capable of a lightening fast evaluation and decision.

To imply that a jury should only consist of those who are friendly to the individual on trial is silly. To wonder what we would have done in the same situation is human. To have others pass judgement is part of living in society.

Jingles to the horse and to Amy. I am sure sleep does not come easily.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 04:31 PM
It is the job of a jury to judge and protect both the rights of society and the individual. If you were on trial, you and society would be thankful for such healthy debate. Ultimately the FEI will lay down judgement. To imply that a jury should only consist of those who are friendly to the individual on trial is silly.
I can't speak for ravenclaw, but what jumps out at me is that there are some people very willing to condemn without having all of the information. One video is not definitive proof of anything, especially intent. Juries aren't supposed to be friendly to any party, but they are supposed to reach a decision based on all of the facts. In fact, people who have strong preconceived notions based on media accounts are often excluded from juries... Jess

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 04:34 PM
you all are watching, Cause I just went back and watched the You tube one again, its so blury and jumpy and I see a stumble, but hes passing trees and such and theres no where I see him trot. not even after the last fence.
Are you talking about something before the start of the Youtube Video?? :confused:

VCT
May. 1, 2007, 04:37 PM
In my experience most mistakes are bad decisions and vice versa. It was a bad decision, I agree. A bad choice made in mere seconds. I don't think she was right. However, based on the video, I do not believe that she made the choice willfully disregarding the welfare of the horse.


A mistake...a mistake...a mistake

Everyone keeps refering to this as a mistake, well another living being is crippled....not from her decision to continue but who can say that the situation was not made worse or could have a potentially worse outcome as a result of continuing on course when damage was done.


Her continuing on course is NOT a mistake...it was a decision she made. Going off course is a mistake...pushing a very tired, and lame horse over another jump and through to the finish is not a mistake...it was a very bad choice/decision...but not a mistake.

Judi
May. 1, 2007, 04:39 PM
the point is this..
Sadly *and very gratefully, happily* I do NOT know what I would have done in her position. I have been on a galloping horse, albeit only at prelim, and he DOES at this point in his career know where the jumps are, looks for them and understands the finish line. How is it that my pushy, grabby horse can slow to a trot once we cross? I choose to believe he "gets" it and as far as I can tell, understands the game. I choose to believe he enjoys his job, knows his job and is really proud of his big ole' self out there. I would think nothing less of Le Samuri. Their ride to that point was lovely. I agree he did look tired towards the end, but who's to say what was happening really then? I never saw what I would consider a pushing ride from Amy all thru the course, and I saw plenty PLENTY of rides that were so that day. Amy got the very short straw.

As far as pulling up a horse- I would think on a lovely race track, flat and no jumps ahead, it would be easier and safer to pull up. My heart skips beats at the thought of pulling up a horse heading towards the jump. The visions of something like that evoke total terror. As does the thought of circling him. That would have been a disaster. First the pressure on his leg, she would have had to circle left...ugh. Plus the ropes were there and there is nary room to circle. I have not counted the strides from the next bad step- which is where bad judgement may enter the picture- but I can bet it was within that "oh sh**" of we are committed.

It is too bad for Amy, and great for the riders before her, that we can utube it, and down load it, as you will never be able to question the rides that ended up in horror before todays media blitz.

My heart goes out to Amy and her lovely horse. I understand she is a very private caring person, and her "camp" loves her which means a lot in this sport. This womans career for petes sake, has been saving lives. I can hardly begin to understand what ya'll are thinking in trying to pouce on her in her time of horror.

I wish that those that want to jump on the wagon of finger pointers would just take a deep breath and imagine how horrible she must feel. I hope that no one ever ends up making a call that ends up being the wrong call in their life and having a trial occur without a judge and jury, missing your testimony and facts.

STWH, Make sure that Amy knows we are thinking about her. <<<<jingles>>>>


Nice post annikak... thank you

One Star
May. 1, 2007, 04:41 PM
you all are watching, Cause I just went back and watched the You tube one again, its so blury and jumpy and I see a stumble, but hes passing trees and such and theres no where I see him trot. not even after the last fence.
Are you talking about something before the start of the Youtube Video?? :confused:

Many people saw Amy's ride as it happened on the Jumbotron at Rolex, and there was a fair number of subscribers to the NBC live webcast that broadcast every Rolex ride, with most of Amy's ride being covered and televised.

That feed was also available for download and repeated viewings on a subscriber's computer or TV after the intitial live broadcast.

The quality of this video is superior to that on YouTube.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 04:43 PM
If recent FEI rulings on such things are consistent, AT's intent will not determine her guilt or innocence with them. That will be decided based on the actions themselves. However, their determination of her intent may play a significant role in their portrayal of the incident and, possibly, the nature of any further disciplinary action (aside from the DQ from Rolex).

This is JMHO based on the rulings concerning Bettina Hoy, Lugar Beerbaum (sp?) and the like.

SCFarm

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
Many people saw Amy's ride as it happened on the Jumbotron at Rolex, and there was a fair number of subscribers to the NBC live webcast that broadcast every Rolex ride, with most of Amy's ride being covered and televised.

That feed was also available for download and repeated viewings on a subscriber's computer or TV after the intitial live broadcast.

The quality of this video is superior to that on YouTube.
is that Video around anywhere?? IT must be longer as well.

Duffy
May. 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
you all are watching, Cause I just went back and watched the You tube one again, its so blury and jumpy and I see a stumble, but hes passing trees and such and theres no where I see him trot. not even after the last fence.
Are you talking about something before the start of the Youtube Video?? :confused:


I watched the Utube - the horse trotted, cross cantered, swapped leads, etc. ALL THE WHILE BEING LAME LAME LAME. It's pretty bad when a horse is visibly lame at the canter, imo. (I did not watch beyond a few strides after the final jump. What I'd seen was enough.)

One Star
May. 1, 2007, 04:51 PM
is that Video around anywhere?? IT must be longer as well.

You can order them from Carr-Hughes Productions:

http://www.carr-hughes.com/videos/index.cfm

Or subscribe to the NBC webcast service and download every minute of the entire event as it was webcast (although the download process and time will frustrate you even more than these threads have):

http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp

bird4416
May. 1, 2007, 04:51 PM
I think you can still purchase the video from NBC. It's 7.99 for 4 days of footage. Amy's ride is in the second segment of cross country video. Here is a link to the website. The video is pretty good quality and you can watch almost all of Amy's ride.
http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp

Gry2Yng
May. 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
I can't speak for ravenclaw, but what jumps out at me is that there are some people very willing to condemn without having all of the information. One video is not definitive proof of anything, especially intent. Juries aren't supposed to be friendly to any party, but they are supposed to reach a decision based on all of the facts. In fact, people who have strong preconceived notions based on media accounts are often excluded from juries... Jess

One can never have all the facts. Judgements and decisions are made every day based on incomplete information.

If Amy had had all the facts in that split second, she might have done something different. Those who sit in judgement do so with the same handicap. In the case of the American legal system, the bias is toward innocence. In the FEI, the bias is toward protecting the horse.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 05:21 PM
If Amy had had all the facts in that split second, she might have done something different. Those who sit in judgement do so with the same handicap. In the case of the American legal system, the bias is toward innocence. In the FEI, the bias is toward protecting the horse.
However, the FEI has more information than people posting on this thread, and it will gather still more before making a judgement. And the original statement was about not wanting posters on a jury, not no an FEI committee.

Do you really think that you have enough information to know whether or not Amy violated FEI prohibitions on abuse of horse, based on one video tape and a few comments from bystanders? Don't you think that the vets' opinions, fence judges' statements, and Amy's own words are relevant? Those are pieces of the puzzle that the FEI has but people here do not. In my mind, the rush to judgement without that information is premature. --Jess

Jazzy Lady
May. 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
I find this amusing and sad that in 2 days this has reached over 300 posts. This unfortunate incident effects NONE of us directly, yet Denny's thread about how to make the sport we love better is getting ignored while everyone is sitting here debating the same thing OVER AND OVER again with no resolve.

Why don't we do something useful that will HELP our sport instead of making it look bad.

just my two cents. What happened looked terrible and I feel terrible for the poor horse. Amy made a terrible judgement call and I'm sure she knows that it was a poor decision. There's nothing I can do about it, it's not in my hands. Luckily the horse is in terrific hands and is getting proper care.

I'll step back now.

NeverTime
May. 1, 2007, 05:46 PM
Perhaps, Jess, but I think it's telling that after Amy opted to withdraw, the ground jury or FEI (I don't understand quite which) later went back and turned that withdrawal into a disqualification. The basic result of either is the same -- she's out of the competition -- but that they chose to go back and make the official reason a DQ seems to infer that their initial investigation led them to sanction her in that basic way -- "no, you can't withdraw; we're disqualifying you."
Maybe they are just erring in favor of the horse -- as Gry2Yng said -- but I think the Saturday action gives an idea of which way the powers that be are leaning, although certainly their investigation could turn up something entirely different.

Gry2Yng
May. 1, 2007, 05:51 PM
However, the FEI has more information than people posting on this thread, and it will gather still more before making a judgement. And the original statement was about not wanting posters on a jury, not no an FEI committee.

Do you really think that you have enough information to know whether or not Amy violated FEI prohibitions on abuse of horse, based on one video tape and a few comments from bystanders? Don't you think that the vets' opinions, fence judges' statements, and Amy's own words are relevant? Those are pieces of the puzzle that the FEI has but people here do not. In my mind, the rush to judgement without that information is premature. --Jess

I don't believe I have posted a word of judgement. I am only pointing out that Amy will be judged and she will be judged with incomplete information. The FEI Committee is the jury in this instance, but we all live in a court of public opinion. You can say that people shouldn't judge because they don't have all of the facts and they can't know what Amy was thinking at the time, but they will judge and they have a right to that judgement, whether it is to condemn or support. Certainly based on the incomplete information available, many have decided that Amy did nothing wrong. You also have the right not to come to a conclusion at this time.

This is a forum for the expression of opinion and as far as I can tell, everyone on this forum only wants what is best for our horses.

Sebastian
May. 1, 2007, 05:53 PM
If recent FEI rulings on such things are consistent, AT's intent will not determine her guilt or innocence with them. That will be decided based on the actions themselves. However, their determination of her intent may play a significant role in their portrayal of the incident and, possibly, the nature of any further disciplinary action (aside from the DQ from Rolex).

This is JMHO based on the rulings concerning Bettina Hoy, Lugar Beerbaum (sp?) and the like.

SCFarm

I agree with you on the cases you site above. But, this is about a "horse abuse" violation which is a far grayer area. There's no test results or timer lines to help determine in a more black & white way whether or not the rule was violated. This is a much more subjective case. It will be interesting to see what the FEI does...and what it uses as "evidence."

Seb

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 05:58 PM
You also have the right not to come to a conclusion at this time. On this, we agree.

It was this comment
To imply that a jury should only consist of those who are friendly to the individual on trial is silly. that I posted about. I don't think anyone implied that the jury should consist only of friends. I think that someone implied that people on this thread have been very quick to judge. I agree with the sentiment that having people who are very quick to judge with based on very limited information are not the people I would want on any jury. That is all. --Jess

Gry2Yng
May. 1, 2007, 06:11 PM
On this, we agree.

I agree with the sentiment that having people who are very quick to judge with based on very limited information are not the people I would want on any jury. That is all. --Jess

On this we also agree, I did not interpret the pp this way and if that was the intent, I apologize.

It should be noted that those who are quick to judge on limited information are the very individuals that we wish to have in charge in a crisis. So while we might not want them on our jury, it is a positive quality in other situations.

Best wishes Jess. I shall now go back to lurking.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 06:23 PM
Gry, no reason to lurk -- as you said, society thrives on healthy debate :)

And on that note, I do think there are differences between being decisive and taking swift action in a crisis, and being quick to judge others. I think we need the former rather than the latter to lead us in crises. --Jess

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 06:26 PM
The Video is gone from Youtube says on a copywright from Carr Hughes.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 06:30 PM
I agree with you on the cases you site above. But, this is about a "horse abuse" violation which is a far grayer area. There's no test results or timer lines to help determine in a more black & white way whether or not the rule was violated. This is a much more subjective case. It will be interesting to see what the FEI does...and what it uses as "evidence."

Seb

It really isn't so gray as defined by the FEI General Rules:


Chapter VII - Protection of Competitors and Horses

Article 143 - Abuse of Horses

1. No person may abuse a horse during an event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a horse, including without limitation any of the following:
<snip>
1.5. To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured horse;
<snip>

Which is the (I believe) the violation (Art. 143.1.5) cited by/to the Ground Jury under the Art. 167 protest.

This IS a very broad definition as written and does not address intent in any way. However, it is consistent with the FEI's primary philosophy of protecting the welfare of the horse first, the competitor second, and all else behind that.

SCFarm

magnolia73
May. 1, 2007, 06:32 PM
It was pretty conclusive from the video that the horse was in trouble. The horse was lame, the rider pushed on, which probably made her eligible for being DQed. The rider continued on and either did not realize the severity of the problem, felt it would do more damage to stop, did not feel the problem or chose to ignore the problem. I imagine that is what the FEI needs to sort out in their investigation., From comments people have made, apparently it is a typical practice for a horse to take some bad steps and then continue on - especially at a high level on uneven terrain. The rider must make a judgement whether the horse stepped on a clip or did something worse.

I think this will be very challenging. The only clear abuse is if the rider says- yes, I felt the horse stumble and not recover and wanted to finish so I pushed on. The rest is all a very grey area for the FEI, and I think the outcome will change some practices. While it was (hopefully) a mistake or misjudgement, one could also argue that there was a level of negligence. If I'm on a horse that trips or stumbles badly, I will pull up and reassess the situation before continuing - that said- I've never been galloping at the end of an event course. If you come to a conclusion that the speed of eventing precludes that type of investigation by the rider - that assessment makes me think that eventing, by design puts horses in a situation where they can not safely be assessed for "soundness" during the course- not good. Or you end up in a situation where you have a rider who must hastily make a decision - and its a crap shoot- did the horse pull a shoe or a tendon- well, I think shoe, so lets go.

Top athletes are special in that they can make last second decisions - but we ALWAYS must remember that riding is special because the horse is the responsibility of the rider and can not communicate succinctly. In these cases, the horse stumbles to communicate something wrong- rough patch or dirt or injury - and the rider needs to hear that and make a decision for the horse and needs to err on the side of caution. Is either waiting to decide until its too late or making the wrong decision a case of abuse? It will be interesting to see the interpretation.

Personally, I don't think its abuse - I think it is negligence. Abuse to me is premeditated. Putting chips in a horses boot or beating a horse or starving a horse to "teach it a lesson". Negligence is failing to do what you are typically expected to do. I think negligence can happen to anyone - even good people. To me, Amy Tryon is like the poor woman who made a turn and did not see the guy in the crosswalk. She sure should have looked, but she's not some drunk driver or some idiot going 100 mph. But, she does need to face the consequences of her actions because there was a victim. Frankly, I bet this makes her one of the most cautious riders out there in the future.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 06:38 PM
The Video is gone from Youtube says on a copywright from Carr Hughes.

Interesting. Didn't look like the rest of their footage. I haven't gotten that segment downloaded yet, so can't compare. But it did look to me like a much more amateur (i.e. hand held/grainy) than the rest of the Hughes camera work.

I'll have to wait until tonight when we have more bandwidth out here.

SCFarm

event1
May. 1, 2007, 06:41 PM
I think what is keeping this WAY TOO LONG thread going is that Amy, her husband, and Mark Phillips are not taking ANY responsiblility about what happend....their statements are BS and we would have to be idiots to buy any of it. Because of that-most Amy bashers are sticking up for the horse...and want their voices heard. No-Amy did not MEAN to hurt the horse-but why can't she just say she made a mistake and take some responsibilty not for the orginal injury (because **** happens) but for the way that she handled it after it happens. Then people would not be so compelled to bash her....It is alot easier to have compassion and sympathy for someone who is willing to give a truthful statement-not insult our intelligence with BS.

Prayers for Le Samurai....

Gry2Yng
May. 1, 2007, 06:41 PM
No worries, Jess. Going back to lurking because that has been my status for some time now. I am pregnant with my first child and spend more time lately posting on pregnancy BB's than the COTH.

Jazzy Lady
May. 1, 2007, 06:50 PM
No worries, Jess. Going back to lurking because that has been my status for some time now. I am pregnant with my first child and spend more time lately posting on pregnancy BB's than the COTH.

Congratulations!!!

tennygirl
May. 1, 2007, 06:58 PM
I will be interested in seeing how NBC handles this in the recap this Sunday. The decision to show or not to show will be a difficult one, I am sure.

I keep thinking that if the level of discussion on a board devoted to and supportive of the great sport of eventing could reach such a rancorous low, what will the general public think? Eventing gets a bad rap so often because people see horse/rider falls and see it as "abuse" because they don't understand what they are seeing. Now we have a prominent rider whose lapse of judgement casts a negative eye not only her decision but the sport in general.

I have seen the video both at the event on the big screen and on dvd and it could easily be interpreted as as damning an indictment of this sport as I have ever seen and it most certainly casts a cloud over what was a truly inspiring day of cross country riding. While all of the armchair quarterbacking is unhelpful it is also inevitable and I shudder to think of what the fallout will be from this not just to AT but also to the sport.

I feel terribly for Amy and all those who know and love Le Samurai. I hope there is some good news to share about his prognosis soon.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 07:03 PM
No worries, Jess. Going back to lurking because that has been my status for some time now. I am pregnant with my first child and spend more time lately posting on pregnancy BB's than the COTH.
Congratulations :) --Jess

TB or not TB?
May. 1, 2007, 07:10 PM
OMG that's so awful. Just finished reading all of these very very emotional threads. It breaks my heart :no: Same things going through my mind as everyone else's - if I feel an off step I'm on the ground in a heartbeat - but on the otherhand at a competition once my horse felt more jittery than usual when we started XC and didn't fall into a rhythm after the first 3 fences so I was going to give it one more jump before pulling him up - at which point he promptly dumped me and headed for home. Horse was fine, just having a bad day. I obviously made a very poor judgement call there by even starting the course, and am lucky that we were both okay (well I got a few bruises).

So of course I am no saint and can hardly fault Amy for a decision that didn't end up being the best one. One of the sad parts of this tale is that if the horse HAD just clipped himself and got a bit of a zinger but galloped home all right, no one would be talking.

There's one thing that popped into my mind on that line (PLEASE don't flame me for this because I am mixed in my opinions and am just trying to sort things out). People have said that there would be no reason for her to continue if she had a lame horse because vetting the next day would eliminate her - this is true. If however the injury was POSSIBLY something small like a pulled shoe or a clip that just stung, she would have every reason to try to finish and could still come back for SJ the next day. That's the part where I have trouble with the whole situation, I guess.

Oh well. If you address this post please don't pull me down into flames for bringing this up or accuse me of defending or villifying Amy because I still don't know how I feel. I just wondered if anyone had considered this or if maybe I am way off base (which is also entirely possible!)

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 07:14 PM
If I'm on a horse that trips or stumbles badly, I will pull up and reassess the situation before continuing - that said- I've never been galloping at the end of an event course. If you come to a conclusion that the speed of eventing precludes that type of investigation by the rider - that assessment makes me think that eventing, by design puts horses in a situation where they can not safely be assessed for "soundness" during the course- not good. Or you end up in a situation where you have a rider who must hastily make a decision - and its a crap shoot- did the horse pull a shoe or a tendon- well, I think shoe, so lets go.

Magnolia, again, this issue really isn't about eventing as a whole. What happened with Le Samurai is not a common occurrence. People pull up on XC all the time. Even just for lost shoes. You feel something funny, you wait a couple of strides to see if it sorts itself out; if not, you pull up. The reason this thread IS this long and is getting so many responses are because that is exactly what everyone would have expected Amy would have done. The 30,000 people watching on the Jumbotron and however many thousands of us who watched it on video wouldn't all be going "holy cr@p, why isn't she pulling up?!" if this were just part of the deal with eventing.

No, you can't always know -- on XC or in a hunter or grand prix ring -- if that funny step that then seems to go away is actually an injury, or just a momentary funny step. Heck, sometimes it IS an injury, but the horse seems sound after a couple of strides. This isn't unique to eventing, and isn't a "design" flaw. If it had happened earlier in the course and she had continued, I have no doubt that she would have been stopped by the stewards. They're supposed to be on top of that stuff and can stop a horse that seems to be in trouble.

Honestly, I can't ever remember hearing of a rider finishing on an obviously lame horse. I'm sure it has happened, and I'm sure there have been less obvious instances where a rider thought maybe something was "off" but nursed the horse over the last couple of fences. But it's not like this is something that happens constantly or is encouraged, and I don't think it's fair to make this an issue of whether or not eventing is flawed. This could just as easily have been a show jumper or a hunter.

AlwaysHopeful
May. 1, 2007, 07:30 PM
OMG that's so awful. Just finished reading all of these very very emotional threads. It breaks my heart :no: Same things going through my mind as everyone else's - if I feel an off step I'm on the ground in a heartbeat - but on the otherhand at a competition once my horse felt more jittery than usual when we started XC and didn't fall into a rhythm after the first 3 fences so I was going to give it one more jump before pulling him up - at which point he promptly dumped me and headed for home. Horse was fine, just having a bad day. I obviously made a very poor judgement call there by even starting the course, and am lucky that we were both okay (well I got a few bruises).

So of course I am no saint and can hardly fault Amy for a decision that didn't end up being the best one. One of the sad parts of this tale is that if the horse HAD just clipped himself and got a bit of a zinger but galloped home all right, no one would be talking.

There's one thing that popped into my mind on that line (PLEASE don't flame me for this because I am mixed in my opinions and am just trying to sort things out). People have said that there would be no reason for her to continue if she had a lame horse because vetting the next day would eliminate her - this is true. If however the injury was POSSIBLY something small like a pulled shoe or a clip that just stung, she would have every reason to try to finish and could still come back for SJ the next day. That's the part where I have trouble with the whole situation, I guess.

I think that's what people are saying. Is that it just further proves that Amy didn't know the extent to which her horse was injured. She may have thought it was just a lost shoe, or a clip, in which case she would be able to compete the next day. So it's not so much that you're take on it changes anything. It's just furthering the thought that she really didn't realize what it was.

More jingles for Amy and Le Samurai.

spina
May. 1, 2007, 07:44 PM
...I don't think it's fair to make this an issue of whether or not eventing is flawed. This could just as easily have been a show jumper or a hunter.

or Barbaro?

I agree that one particular incident shouldn't condem an entire sport, but I think that the crys of "foul" or "abuse" or "selfishness and/or greed" rise out of a horror and frustration that no one is being very forthcoming with information, and that gives the impression that the governing bodies, the powers that be, the owners, trainer, and especially the rider don't care - and especially don't care about public opinion, and that in turn gives the impression that there is nothing being done to prevent it from happening again.
When I think back to that horrible footage of Barbaro's breakdown that was played over and over and discussed on every major network, plastered on the front of every newspaper, and talked about for weeks by people who had never so much as stepped in a barn as if they were talking about their own friend, I can't help but think that the access to information was a blessing and a comfort to people who were shocked and saddened by the event.
Whoever it was that mentioned damage control had it right. I hope someone's listening.

dogchushu
May. 1, 2007, 07:56 PM
Interesting. Didn't look like the rest of their footage. I haven't gotten that segment downloaded yet, so can't compare. But it did look to me like a much more amateur (i.e. hand held/grainy) than the rest of the Hughes camera work.

I'll have to wait until tonight when we have more bandwidth out here.

SCFarm

The youtube video did look amateurish. It bounced all over and was extremely grainy. However, I bet it was a copy of the NBC/Carr Hughes Webcast where someone held a camera up to their moniter while playing the download.

I do have the downloads, and it looked like the same footage. In addition, the bottom of the youtube video showed the top of the graphics used in the NBC/Carr Hughes Webcast. There was also at least once that the youtube poster moved the camera and you could see the side of his/her moniter. I was surprised the youtube clip was up for as long as it was since it seemed like a pretty clear copyright violation.

Sorry for the nitpicky post. I know it's not really relevant to the discussion. I just didn't want someone to start speculating that there was some conspiracy to remove the video. To me, it really did look like someone pirated it from the NBC Webcast.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 08:26 PM
that Video was a piece of the NBC tape, it is far to jumpy and amateurish! Wonder why they took it down.

Gnep
May. 1, 2007, 08:43 PM
dog,
this a very low pixel camera, a copy of a screen would show you the black bar moving across the screen.
I will not give a public judgement, I don't think that is my place.

But one thing that was striking to me and it has already been mentioned, this horse was extremly tired, running on fumes.
As in so many cases a bad decision has many wrong decisions as parents and in this case it started 3000 meter earlier. If one has a look at the last 4 jumps and the gallops in between one can see quiet clearly several little stumbels. The now famous Utube video starts with several nice strides and than a little of balance and a nother of balance the rest has been talked about endlessly.
Somebody asked is there something positive to learn concerning the safety discussion. Yes something very important. If you run your horse to hard in the beginning you risk that it runs out of gas and when it starts running on fumes and you do not have the sense to take it back and bring it back into the reins, give it a chance to settel and reorganize you risk serious concequenzes.

But I have now a very serious question to all of you.

Does AT have big pores ?

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 08:48 PM
I agree that one particular incident shouldn't condem an entire sport, but I think that the crys of "foul" or "abuse" or "selfishness and/or greed" rise out of a horror and frustration that no one is being very forthcoming with information, and that gives the impression that the governing bodies, the powers that be, the owners, trainer, and especially the rider don't care - and especially don't care about public opinion, and that in turn gives the impression that there is nothing being done to prevent it from happening again.

Gosh, I think that's a pretty big leap to make. We haven't gotten an official status update on the horse since yesterday, so that means the governing bodies, owner, rider, etc. don't care and no one is doing anything?

There's an investigation being conducted by the FEI -- that fact has been widely reported since Saturday. Amy was DQed, which already speaks to the fact that the ground jury there didn't approve. And she did issue a statement -- maybe it didn't say what people wanted it to say, but it's not like everyone is pretending this didn't happen.


When I think back to that horrible footage of Barbaro's breakdown that was played over and over and discussed on every major network, plastered on the front of every newspaper, and talked about for weeks by people who had never so much as stepped in a barn as if they were talking about their own friend, I can't help but think that the access to information was a blessing and a comfort to people who were shocked and saddened by the event.

But Barbaro was a national news story. As important as Rolex might be to us, it is not national news. It's not mentioned in the newspaper or on ESPN. There are no camera crews camped out at Haygard, and they're not going to hold a press conference because, well, no one would be there. The horsey press -- COTH, Horse and Hound, The Horse, etc. -- are all back at home. They will, of course, continue to follow the story and there will be updates when there are updates. But I think it's unrealistic to expect CNN-style 24-hour coverage of this.

Gosh, doesn't anyone remember the days pre-internet when you had to wait about two WEEKS after Rolex, when the Chronicle would show up in your mailbox, to even find out who won? :winkgrin:

mcm7780
May. 1, 2007, 09:04 PM
that Video was a piece of the NBC tape, it is far to jumpy and amateurish! Wonder why they took it down.

It was taken down because it was copywrited.

luvthreehorses
May. 1, 2007, 09:20 PM
I'm just sorry the whole thing happened. To me, as an outsider, it looked like the horse was getting tired, but not overly tired. It looked like he did suddenly go lame, but then worked out of it, and then went lame again, and then again worked out of it. It truly looked like a pulled shoe from an outsiders perspective.

I would figure, from the youtube video, that the rider felt twice the horse taking some steps, pushing through, and then going really lame after the last fence. :(

I don't think anyone can really tell what that felt like. Poor girl, poor horse, and really poor for Eventing. :( Lets just hope this is not going to end the poor horses life. For the horse, and for the rider. I would be horrified if a split decision on my part caused a horse to die.

Sannois
May. 1, 2007, 09:21 PM
Gosh, I think that's a pretty big leap to make. We haven't gotten an official status update on the horse since yesterday, so that means the governing bodies, owner, rider, etc. don't care and no one is doing anything?

There's an investigation being conducted by the FEI -- that fact has been widely reported since Saturday. Amy was DQed, which already speaks to the fact that the ground jury there didn't approve. And she did issue a statement -- maybe it didn't say what people wanted it to say, but it's not like everyone is pretending this didn't happen.



But Barbaro was a national news story. As important as Rolex might be to us, it is not national news. It's not mentioned in the newspaper or on ESPN. There are no camera crews camped out at Haygard, and they're not going to hold a press conference because, well, no one would be there. The horsey press -- COTH, Horse and Hound, The Horse, etc. -- are all back at home. They will, of course, continue to follow the story and there will be updates when there are updates. But I think it's unrealistic to expect CNN-style 24-hour coverage of this.

Gosh, doesn't anyone remember the days pre-internet when you had to wait about two WEEKS after Rolex, when the Chronicle would show up in your mailbox, to even find out who won? :winkgrin:

The good old days!! Waiting was good it gave us something to look forward to!
;)

Koniucha
May. 1, 2007, 09:22 PM
No worries, Jess. Going back to lurking because that has been my status for some time now. I am pregnant with my first child and spend more time lately posting on pregnancy BB's than the COTH.

So am I, although I am much more of a lurker than you are. When are you due?

I have my opinions on this subject too, but I have been too tired lately to get into anything.

spina
May. 1, 2007, 09:25 PM
We haven't gotten an official status update on the horse since yesterday, so that means the governing bodies, owner, rider, etc. don't care and no one is doing anything?


I didn't mean to imply that no one cares or is doing nothing, but that that is the impression that people get. It doesn't have to be 24 hr coverage, just an honest conversation about what happened and about what's being done, and information about Samurai's condition. It wouldn't take much to issue an update, even if the status hasn't changed. Damage control. Tend to the supporters, and you get support. I think it's a big mistake to keep information about anything people really care about close to the vest. It alienates the small (and dwindling) "fan base" the sport has to begin with, and enrages many of the participants and supporters.

Mariequi
May. 1, 2007, 09:54 PM
As the "Sector" Steward asked to give a written statement, I won't comment on what I saw and relayed that day. Yesterday I went back out on the course to walk the distances between the jump efforts and relive the moments in the quiet. It's just a sad situation and we all are concerned most importantly with this game horse's future quality of life and our vibes should be positive and in that direction. I forwarded the youtube video to a couple of the officials as I believed it important for them to know of its existence. I continue to believe in the integrity of this sport, its competitors and organizers.

LordHelpus - we miss you here.

Carol Ames
May. 1, 2007, 10:07 PM
Was the vet actually running tow:no: ards her?At Barcelona when Sandscript was staggering toward the :no: :( finish line, albeit at a walk , Marty Simensen , the vet yelled "Todd get off " and he swung off right at that that moment:yes:

Angela Freda
May. 1, 2007, 10:10 PM
But it's not like this is something that happens constantly or is encouraged, and I don't think it's fair to make this an issue of whether or not eventing is flawed. This could just as easily have been a show jumper or a hunter.
I think Magnolias point though is that people who know even less about eventing than those of us drawn here from other disciplines WILL use this as a means to determine whether Eventing is a flawed sport. PETA and others already do. This incident will just give them more fuel. And that is what makes me realy sad about this situation... bad decision, intent, whatever, doesn't matter... people who are even more clueless than I am will watch that video and Eventings image will further be tarnished in their eyes. And that could effect sponsors and those who televise the events. It possibly makes more slippery the already slippery slope of the future of the sport.

dogchushu
May. 1, 2007, 10:20 PM
dog,
this a very low pixel camera, a copy of a screen would show you the black bar moving across the screen.


Good to know. However, it did have the blue graphics at the bottom that are in the Carr Hughes broadcast. You could also see the side of something (either the moniter or the side of a TV if it was hooked up to one) when the filmer moved.

HECS04
May. 1, 2007, 10:21 PM
the youtube video has been removed...does anyone know where there is another one?

spina
May. 1, 2007, 10:23 PM
As the "Sector" Steward asked to give a written statement, I won't comment on what I saw and relayed that day.

...I continue to believe in the integrity of this sport, its competitors and organizers.

You certainly don't have to comment on this BB, and frankly, I don't blame you for not wanting to - but, no offense, but if you're not going to, why would you bother to come on just to say you're not going to say anything?
If you (and others like you in a position to speak out) don't stand up, find the appropriate venue to speak up and try to sort out this mess soon, you'll be one of the few who does continue to believe in the integrity of this sport, its competitors and organizers.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 10:25 PM
I didn't mean to imply that no one cares or is doing nothing, but that that is the impression that people get. It doesn't have to be 24 hr coverage, just an honest conversation about what happened and about what's being done, and information about Samurai's condition. It wouldn't take much to issue an update, even if the status hasn't changed.

Honest conversation? Well, we've got one going on right here, and I assume on lots of other BBs around the horse world.

What's being done? The FEI is investigating. And that will eventually tell us what happened.

Samurai's condition? Well, I assume that it hasn't changed significantly since we last heard about it and that his suspensory is still "lost," and that we'll probably get another update soon.


I think it's a big mistake to keep information about anything people really care about close to the vest.

I guess I just don't see that there's information being "kept" from anyone -- rather that there is a process involved and things will become clearer in time.

I think there is a natural desire to see somebody "do something" in the wake of a tragic event, but in this case, the "something" is going to depend on the FEI's findings. While it might be reassuring for us desk jockeys who are on a BB all day to get hourly updates on what Samurai is doing ;) ... that doesn't really affect anything. What will actually be good for the SPORT is if the FEI conducts a thorough, timely investigation, issues its report, and metes out any punishment it deems necessary.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 10:27 PM
the youtube video has been removed...does anyone know where there is another one?

I assume you can still go pay the 8 bucks and get the downloads from NBC.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 10:32 PM
If you (and others like you in a position to speak out) don't stand up, find the appropriate venue to speak up and try to sort out this mess soon....

spina, she DID find the appropriate venue -- in her statement to the officials.

Sheesh. Why is everyone so ready to blame here? The officials are all doing their jobs. There's a process for this stuff -- have a little faith in it.

HECS04
May. 1, 2007, 10:38 PM
I assume you can still go pay the 8 bucks and get the downloads from NBC.

Thanks Erin :-) it was on there...just wasnt sure where to find it at first

Mariequi
May. 1, 2007, 10:42 PM
Thanks, Erin. Yes, that was the proper venue. If you were called to court as a witness, for example, you wouldn't be giving your views elsewhere. There are plenty of people who were there and who looked at videos and are giving their 2 cents and bless them.

I'm not in a position to speak out and I'm not an expert on the situation or self-imposed voice for the sport. I just wanted to express continued support as some have here. That's all.

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 10:46 PM
Not only is there a process that should be allowed to happen, but also, we really aren't entitled to all of the details. If the horse's connections choose not to make public statements about his condition, that is their choice. We may not like it, and we may have the best of intentions in wanting to know how he is progressing, but we are not entitled to know.

And similarly, we aren't entitled to all of the details about the FEI investigation. I'm not sure I know to what information we are entitled, but some things, even involving prominent figures, are still private matters between directly concerned parties. I'm sure we will get the big picture eventually. But all of the details? Do we get all of the details in the steroids investigations in baseball? In NBA diciplinary sanctions? Nope. --Jess

larksmom@comcast.net
May. 1, 2007, 10:47 PM
I seem to remember one of the last few Olympics, [was it Barcelona?] that a rider, I think it was an American male rider, was on a horse that was dead tired at the finish. I think he walked across the finish, and may have already dismounted. Anyone else remember this incident?
Also remember the stellar, and I mean stellar riders competing at Rolex this year, who retired on course. Bruce, and Buck Davidson, and Becky Holder. I have still not read the post ride interviews that will be forthcoming in COTH. But something wasn't clicking with their horses and they quit because something was going on that made them unsure of the ride they were having.
One more thing, did anyone else notice how QUICKLY Kristin B was able to pull up Griffindor in the MIDDLE of a huge triple!?! He looked very confused but he stopped instantly, and poor Kristen!
:no: :confused:

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 10:53 PM
Yes, that was Todd Trewin and Sandscript, who Carol Ames mentioned a few posts ago. I think it was Seoul... wherever it was, it was HOT, and he nursed the horse over the last few jumps. I can't recall if he was able to show jump or not, but I think not... I'm sure someone else remembers more.

shea'smom
May. 1, 2007, 10:53 PM
Kristen didn't pull up, she turned out, it was a two stride and her horse was 100%.
I'm just saying.

spina
May. 1, 2007, 10:55 PM
Erin- I'm talking about an appropriate venue for the PUBLIC. To issue statements, if not coverage, regarding what the FEI is doing, what USEF is doing, how the horse is doing. Recognizing that once this event - this incident - was televised, recorded, You-Tubed for thousands (hundreds of thousands after NBC's airing this Sunday) it is not a PRIVATE story. It is now an "ugly incident" that needs addressing and some damage control. I'm not blaming anyone for anything - I just can't believe people won't stop gazing at their own navels long enough to look down the road at where this is going and the effect it will have on the future of the sport.

Carol Ames
May. 1, 2007, 11:01 PM
> that's a pretty big leap to make. We haven't gotten an official status update on the horse since yesterday, so that means the governing bodies, owner, rider, etc. don't care and no one is doing anything?
>
> There's an investigation being conducted by the FEI -- that fact has been widely reported since Saturday. Amy was DQed, which already speaks to the fact that the ground jury there didn't approve. And she did issue a statement -- maybe it didn't say what people wanted it to say, but it's not like everyone is pretending this didn't happen.







Erin, that was what I meant about having protocol in place to handle such a situation; at the Preakness last year We all saw how much work the racing industry had done, in this regard ; eventing needs to do the same I have concerns about the WEG Kentucky; both about weather weather conditions , though we did learn alot in the run up to Atlanta; and also also in the likelihood of riders going too fast without realizing it due to the lush green galloping lanes, and the natural desire to just to just let the horses "go" on such lush turf; It is a warning I was always reminded to give to students running there for the first time,the ground and footing are so good and the ground so lush that at somepoint you think , 'Wow "let's go " and let's face it folks with that many horses and riders from around the world there are bound to be accidents and injuries, and there needs to be a protocol for a spokesperson to give updates on the condition of horses and riders ; let's at least show the world that we do care and keep updating to prove that; New Bolton did a wonderful job in this regard; Of course they had DeanRichardson, Barbros' gift to us to come to know him

larksmom@comcast.net
May. 1, 2007, 11:02 PM
I have read most of this but not EVERY SINGLE post! I read that one AFTER I posted!! I wasn't saying anything at all about Griff being lame, rather, just how quickly he pulled up! I meant no harm!!
sheeesshh!





you aren't finished when you fail, you are finished when you quit.'

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:06 PM
Erin- I'm talking about an appropriate venue for the PUBLIC. To issue statements, if not coverage, regarding what the FEI is doing, what USEF is doing, how the horse is doing.

And, as I said earlier, all of that HAS been made public. We know the FEI is investigating. We know (basically) what injury the horse suffered. I would guess that the USEF isn't doing anything because this was not a USEF competition and there isn't anything for them TO do. (Although if Amy is "set down" by the FEI, I have this vague recollection that the USEF can mirror that with their own suspension... but I could be totally wrong on that.)


Recognizing that once this event - this incident - was televised, recorded, You-Tubed for thousands (hundreds of thousands after NBC's airing this Sunday) it is not a PRIVATE story. It is now an "ugly incident" that needs addressing and some damage control. I'm not blaming anyone for anything - I just can't believe people won't stop gazing at their own navels long enough to look down the road at where this is going and the effect it will have on the future of the sport.

Well, not everyone thinks that it's not being addressed. Personally, while I certainly hope for the best for Le Samurai and will read with interest any updates on him, as Jess said, I don't think I'm entitled to constant updates just because I happened to watch his cross-country round.

I'm more interested in what the FEI says. That, in my mind, is the appropriate way to address the issue.

Carol Ames
May. 1, 2007, 11:13 PM
Is the rolex to be rebroadcast this year?I've not seen mention of it in connection with the the derby, as it has been in recent yyears:confused:

Event4Life
May. 1, 2007, 11:18 PM
Personally, I don't think any of this stuff should be "public". This is something EXPERTS(aka the FEI, USEA, or whoever else) should handle. No average rider has any business butting in on something as serious as this. The experts are more than qualified to deal with it, and as Erin has repeatedly stated, they are handling the situation. Leave it at that, and for once in your lives keep your noses out of someone elses business.

What Amy needs right now is either support or to be left the hell alone. As others have said, anyone can read this board. How would you feel if you were bashed all over such a public internet forum?! NONE of you can put yourselfs in Amy's position because NONE of you were there, at that moment in time, in the saddle on that horse. So don't give us this moral roade BS, beucause you can't say what you wouldve done in a situation like that until you were there yourself.

Lay off and wait to hear what the FEI has to say.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 11:18 PM
Erin- I'm talking about an appropriate venue for the PUBLIC. To issue statements, if not coverage, regarding what the FEI is doing, what USEF is doing, how the horse is doing. Recognizing that once this event - this incident - was televised, recorded, You-Tubed for thousands (hundreds of thousands after NBC's airing this Sunday) it is not a PRIVATE story. It is now an "ugly incident" that needs addressing and some damage control. I'm not blaming anyone for anything - I just can't believe people won't stop gazing at their own navels long enough to look down the road at where this is going and the effect it will have on the future of the sport.

I'm with spina on this.

I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive.

As a matter of fact it was a Hagyard alumni Internal medicine vet who told me not long ago (after an unsuccessful 3 1/2 month fight to save my mare's life) that the best tribute to her was the lessons learned for the ones who come after her. That brought me great comfort AND it is true.

We deal with tragedy by learning from it and using it to benefit those who come after. Without that, what else is there to do? Where else does hope come from?

What happened on that video is unthinkable and will remain so until we find a way to make it help the next horse and the next rider who must face such a desicion. How else are we to resolve the horrible feelings that somehow this was allowed to happen - by us and by the people we trust - to a horse that gave it all.

Yes, it is all very emotional. It is the need to channel that emotion into something positive we crave. We are in a vacuum of information. All we want is for "our leaders" to talk to us. Even if only to know that they feel the same way.

SCFarm

SCFarm

larksmom@comcast.net
May. 1, 2007, 11:20 PM
yes next Sunday afternoon, with commentary by James Wofford. The Barbaro video is to air only on CABLE and truely, I don't know if I can watch that one at all.

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 11:32 PM
Personally, I don't think any of this stuff should be "public". This is something EXPERTS(aka the FEI, USEA, or whoever else) should handle. No average rider has any business butting in on something as serious as this. The experts are more than qualified to deal with it, and as Erin has repeatedly stated, they are handling the situation. Leave it at that, and for once in your lives keep your noses out of someone elses business.


I will agree that there is plenty of "stuff" that is no one else's business. However, there is still plenty of "stuff" left over that is perfectly reasonable for public debate and clearly outside of the realm of the "private" stuff.

It would be nice for some official guidence on what is acceptable and what is not. And until there IS people will cross that undefined line - esp. when they are emotional - on both sides.

And anybody at ANY level needs to put some serious thought into when to pull up and when to kick on.

SCFarm

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:38 PM
Personally, I don't think any of this stuff should be "public". This is something EXPERTS(aka the FEI, USEA, or whoever else) should handle. No average rider has any business butting in on something as serious as this. The experts are more than qualified to deal with it, and as Erin has repeatedly stated, they are handling the situation. Leave it at that, and for once in your lives keep your noses out of someone elses business.

Um, just to clarify, I don't think people need to "mind their own business."

When you go and compete in a public venue, in front of tens of thousands of people, yes, you need to expect that people -- average or not -- will comment on your performance, and it may not all be kind.

And yes, absolutely, the FEI's decision and their reasoning for it should be made public.

eventer2002
May. 1, 2007, 11:40 PM
Okay so I don't get why the video was supposedly copyrighted since someone says it seemed amatureish and grainy something a professional wouldn't produce. I'd like to thank the person that put it up and if there's any way it could be put back up and left up that'd be great. I think its something everyone needs to watch for themself especially those who keep hearing about it but can't see what really happened. Clear picture or not, what happened can't be disputed nor the fact that it took place in front of thousands of thousands of fans at a public and important venue.

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:46 PM
I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive.

See, I think that right there is the real impetus behind this cry for updates and information. Just like when Va. Tech happened, people immediately started talking about gun control.

People are upset, and they want other people to "do something" to "fix" whatever upset them.

There are already rules in place that deal with this sort of thing, and that's what the FEI is trying to determine right now -- whether or not Amy broke those rules. And obviously there's lots of discussion going on here and elsewhere... and I would expect that to continue in editorials and articles and whatnot for several weeks to come. That, to me, is how we make sense of this.

The internet wasn't around then, but I do remember a lot of similar discussion about Todd Trewin and Sandscript. Every couple decades, it seems, we need a reminder that sometimes getting across the finish line isn't the most important thing...

Erin
May. 1, 2007, 11:49 PM
Okay so I don't get why the video was supposedly copyrighted since someone says it seemed amatureish and grainy something a professional wouldn't produce.

It was a home video of the (yes, copyrighted) NBC video feed on someone's computer monitor. Not legal to distribute.

You can pay the 8 bucks and download it legitimately (along with every other ride at the event): http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp

buschkn
May. 2, 2007, 12:12 AM
As an aside- does anyone know if that whole sequence is going to be aired on national television? That does little to endear our equine sports to the general public, and I am curious how it will play out. ie makes for sensationalistic journalism, the failed hero etc etc, or will someone step in and put the kaibosh on that segment for fear of a general backlash bigger than what we are seeing so far? Wondering everyone's thoughts on that one, and as always jingling for noble Sparky.

Event4Life
May. 2, 2007, 12:13 AM
Ok just to clarify, I do think the FEI's statement should be public, but only when the statement has been released. What bothers me is the rumours that have been flying around from people who in my opinion, have no right to say anything on the matter. They don't help the situation.

BLBGP
May. 2, 2007, 12:34 AM
All I know is I've never seen anything like that video. I'm sorry it happened with someone so well-respected in the irons but that doesn't negate that the last 20+ seconds of that ride - in retrospect to some and right at the first misstep to others - should never have happened.

NBC does have a tough decision on their hands. One way they'd be accused of trying to hide the story. Go the other way and they'll be accused of sensationalizing. My guess is that they will show it with the original confused commentary of the announcer, mention the inquiry, and leave it at that. It's up to the FEI, AT, and horse folk around the world to salvage from there.

I feel so bad for that horse. Talk about heart.

canterlope
May. 2, 2007, 03:33 AM
And, as I said earlier, all of that HAS been made public. We know the FEI is investigating. We know (basically) what injury the horse suffered. I would guess that the USEF isn't doing anything because this was not a USEF competition and there isn't anything for them TO do. (Although if Amy is "set down" by the FEI, I have this vague recollection that the USEF can mirror that with their own suspension... but I could be totally wrong on that.)Erin, just a very quick clarification. Rolex is both a USEF licensed competition and a USEA recognized competition. In addition, it is also designated as the USEF CCI4* Championship. As such, both the USEF and the USEA have the ability to take action against Amy.

MagicMelon
May. 2, 2007, 07:30 AM
Regardless of whether you agree or not with her decision, it was a MISTAKE. I would be interested to learn some of the errors of judgment that have been made by those who feel the need to put her down.

Amy is aware of her mistake, and is completely devastated by it. So let's leave the criticizing to her and to the FEI in their investigation. What she needs right now is support from her fellow riders- not put downs.

What a weird thing to say. So someone who has caused a horse a great deal of pain should be SUPPORTED because oh woops she didnt realise even though all the signs were right there?! Are you serious?! Thats like saying anyone who is cruel to their horse should be SUPPORTED if they realise it was a mistake?! What a joke. There are genuine mistakes and there is blatant selfish cruelty. She is the latter. Either that, or she is just plain stupid. If this had happened at your average small event then the rider would be totally ripped to shreds, just because she is a 4* rider I would expect way way more from her and believe she does not deserve our support!

Spoilsport
May. 2, 2007, 07:36 AM
If this had happened at your average small event then the rider would be totally ripped to shreds, just because she is a 4* rider I would expect way way more from her and believe she does not deserve our support!

I must live a different planet, because I've seen lower level riders in just about every equestrian discipline make errors of judgment that had huge consequences for the horse, and no one even said "boo" :no: :no: :no:

Sannois
May. 2, 2007, 07:40 AM
What a weird thing to say. So someone who has caused a horse a great deal of pain should be SUPPORTED because oh woops she didnt realise even though all the signs were right there?! Are you serious?! Thats like saying anyone who is cruel to their horse should be SUPPORTED if they realise it was a mistake?! What a joke. There are genuine mistakes and there is blatant selfish cruelty. She is the latter. Either that, or she is just plain stupid. If this had happened at your average small event then the rider would be totally ripped to shreds, just because she is a 4* rider I would expect way way more from her and believe she does not deserve our support!

do not know that, And calling it blatant selfish cruelity is just insane.
I still am aghast at all the posters who feel they know just what happened and just what went through Amys mind while SHE was riding.
Are you people ever going to let the powers that be make the decisions and form conclusions? No I answered my own question. Man I would love to see how all of you would react in the same situation. I know you KNOW you would have never done such a thing.
Now come on, Leave it be! Its really ugly the way you are behaving, so not like Eventers I know. :no:

Mariequi
May. 2, 2007, 08:03 AM
"I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive."

This is the problem with our 'immediate feedback' world - patience. Let's let the facts make an educated decision, and that usually means discussion. Let's let the applicable parties do their jobs. Of course, they're as concerned as we are, and more.

magnolia73
May. 2, 2007, 08:33 AM
Personally, I don't think any of this stuff should be "public". This is something EXPERTS(aka the FEI, USEA, or whoever else) should handle. No average rider has any business butting in on something as serious as this. The experts are more than qualified to deal with it, and as Erin has repeatedly stated, they are handling the situation. Leave it at that, and for once in your lives keep your noses out of someone elses business.


Unfortunately, they have done a poor job in communicating their findings. It seems horses get hurt or worst with some frequency in eventing....and they never make public any studies. I would be much more comforted if these organizations did what the endurance riders do and publish reports. For me, this is just one incident out of several incidents this year that make eventing look like some extreme sport like some crazy back country ski jumping- which would be fine were it not for the horses. This year we have what- at least 5 serious injuries or deaths of riders (internationally), at least one horse that had to be put down (that I know of) and who knows how many injuries. People, something is WRONG and if the outcry from "the unknowledgable" is a tipping point that helps make a new focus on safety than it is worthwhile.

pegasusmom
May. 2, 2007, 08:35 AM
"I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive."

This is the problem with our 'immediate feedback' world - patience. Let's let the facts make an educated decision, and that usually means discussion. Let's let the applicable parties do their jobs. Of course, they're as concerned as we are, and more.


Bears repeating. We do live in an immediate feedback world and base our opinions on snippets of facts delivered in a 30 second sound byte or a blog on the internet. As the wife of a soldier currently serving in Iraq I am constantly reminded of this each and every day. And regardless of what we think or feel may have happened, there is a mechanism in place to deal with this situation. Even the most heinous serial killer is accorded due process. Try having a little faith in the system. I think it usually works.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 08:45 AM
Sigh. Magnolia, WHY do you want to keep making this about eventing at large, and not about ONE incident that just happens to have taken place at an event? :confused:

This is not about studies or safety or accidents. It's about ONE rider's actions and whether or not those are in violation with FEI rules.

If you want to discuss why eventing is wrong, a new thread would be a better place to do it.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 08:47 AM
Erin, just a very quick clarification. Rolex is both a USEF licensed competition and a USEA recognized competition. In addition, it is also designated as the USEF CCI4* Championship. As such, both the USEF and the USEA have the ability to take action against Amy.

Whoops! Thanks for the clarification canterlope.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 08:50 AM
If this had happened at your average small event then the rider would be totally ripped to shreds, just because she is a 4* rider I would expect way way more from her and believe she does not deserve our support! When it does happen at a smaller event (and I have personal knowledge as member of an organizing committee), you get an immediate DQ, and then MONTHS for the sanctioning bodies to deliberate the case and decide on further penalties.

Sounds similar to me.

Ja Da Dee
May. 2, 2007, 08:51 AM
"I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive."

Personally, I DON'T want to know that behind closed doord our officials are rattled and desparate. I hope that they are calm and coolminded, researching with the best of their abilities the data in front of them so they can come to a conclusion based on fact and reason.

Editing to add that I'm tired of the "react then think" mindset that's permeated our society. Better to make rational decisions instead of rash ones.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 08:54 AM
NBC does have a tough decision on their hands. One way they'd be accused of trying to hide the story. Go the other way and they'll be accused of sensationalizing. My guess is that they will show it with the original confused commentary of the announcer, mention the inquiry, and leave it at that. It's up to the FEI, AT, and horse folk around the world to salvage from there.

I don't see how they can not show it -- she was leading after dressage and was clean up til that point on the course. (Well, after that point, even...) Plus, it's not NBC's job to sanitize what happened to "protect" eventing.

Now, those of you looking for more of a response from the official horse community, there is a venue where it might be useful. Although I don't know that we'll have enough info by the time the show is put together (which I imagine has already happened or will in the next day or so) for anyone "official" to really feel very comfortable commenting on it, but who knows...

magnolia73
May. 2, 2007, 09:12 AM
Erin-
Sorry to frustrate you, I find this interesting in an I should have gone to law school because it would have been fun way.

Look- you have 50% of posters (mainly eventers) thinking she just did what most event riders would do - including the coach of the national team - she just did what many do and ended up making a mistake. Then 50% of posters (a lot of really good people from other disciplines as well as eventing) saying- wow - she screwed up - you never push a horse you aren't 100% sure of. She's truly in a 50% grey area and I think the FEI's decision will have a huge impact on eventing AND on the riders level of responsibility for the horse- and the steps required of the rider to protect that horse in competition. I think after this, if Amy is judged to have abused, that many of the "accidents" of the past may well, if reevaluated, become instances of "abuse".

and with that I will go away and comment on GPA vs CO vs IRH.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 09:22 AM
I haven't seen the video, but I have read a lot of the commentary.

If _I_ were on the FEI committee, I think _I_ would be focusing on what happened in the previous few fences.

My understanding (and I hope the vets will correct me if I am wrong) is that that kind of "complete" ligament failure happens because the horse is tired, and the muscles are no longer capable of doing thier job, putting all the load on the ligments. (Unlike a broken bone, or a simpler tear to a branch of a ligament, which can be the result of a single bad step.)

If I were looking to see if there was an "error of judgement", I would be focusing on the time BEFORE the injury, more than on the time between the injury and the finish line.

JenJ
May. 2, 2007, 09:26 AM
Look- you have 50% of posters (mainly eventers) thinking she just did what most event riders would do - including the coach of the national team - she just did what many do and ended up making a mistake.


I have not read every post but i do not believe there are many if any people agreeing with Amy's decision to jump the last fence. What I think the sentiment was, was that to anyone watching live, or the NBC live feed, that horse was obviously in no shape to jump, but that we have no idea what Amy thought or felt, and until the FEI investigation is complete and Amy is allowed to speak about this publically, we are trying to withhold judgement.

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 09:28 AM
"I guess what I really want to know is that behind closed doors, our officials are as rattled, as concerned, as desparate as we are to try and make sense of this incident. And are trying very, very hard to salvage something, anything positive." I sincerely hope they are NOT doing that.

I hope they are being careful, rational, calm, and deliberate, gathering and considering all the information ("evidence") available.

And I hope they are trying very, very, hard to be fair and unbiased. It is not their job to "salvage something positive". If they put THAT above being fair, I would be VERY disappointed.

Event4Life
May. 2, 2007, 09:35 AM
I think a little more faith in our officials is warranted here. Think about this guys - they wouldnt have gotten the jobs they have if they couldnt keep their heads screwed on in a situation like this. Personally, I have faith in them and their ability to judge the situation, and I'm going to wait and hear what they have to say before jumping to any conclusions. I think it will be interesting to see how all this pans out, and how/if it affects the rules and sport in the future.

TexasTB
May. 2, 2007, 09:36 AM
If this had happened at your average small event then the rider would be totally ripped to shreds

Maybe ripped to shreds by you,
But as for me, I would let the powers that be make their own educated decision, not add insult to injury

An no, we're not "supporting" what you all call "animal cruelty"
We're supporting the rider as a person, and not passing judgement based on what we were not able to experience or witness firsthand

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 09:40 AM
Look- you have 50% of posters (mainly eventers) thinking she just did what most event riders would do - including the coach of the national team - she just did what many do and ended up making a mistake.

I don't think I've seen anyone say she did what "most event riders do." If this is what most event riders do, why am I running around putting out fires on three different threads on this forum about the incident? It's precisely because (preliminary assessment based just on the facts available at the moment) this is NOT what most eventers would do, and NOT what would be expected of a rider and horseman of Amy's caliber.

TBCollector
May. 2, 2007, 09:41 AM
Is anyone aware whether the ruling could come down as "negligence" versus "abuse?"
Erin, as far as whether NBC will show the footage, I think the endless replays of Barbaro's Preakness misstep should tell you that yes, they will.

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 09:47 AM
you are supporting a woman who pushed their horse past his capabilties. It is animal cruelty. it was cruel for her to continue on. I look forward to better days when people like amy are not ambassadors to a younger generation in our sport.

LLDM
May. 2, 2007, 09:52 AM
Personally, I DON'T want to know that behind closed doord our officials are rattled and desparate. I hope that they are calm and coolminded, researching with the best of their abilities the data in front of them so they can come to a conclusion based on fact and reason.

Editing to add that I'm tired of the "react then think" mindset that's permeated our society. Better to make rational decisions instead of rash ones.

While I DO see your point, you are using my quote and the terms in it a bit out of context.

This thread is about the video of the last 30+ seconds of AT's ride XC. It's been seen by a whole lot of people all over the world. There is a huge difference between wanting instant gratification and expecting a timely response. The negative public perception (to eventers and non-eventers and non-horse people alike) is being done now. By the time there is a response, many non-horse people will have moved on with only a lingering impression and no "counter perspective" to balance it.

Janet - you really need to see the video. I just don't think you can understand its impact unless you do. It is, well, no, I can't describe it properly. You just have to see it.

Erin - I said a while back that the USEF and the USEA had to have some standing in this. How could they not? This incident may not be indicative of the inherent risk of eventing. But how can you say that it does not effect it? It wasn't "the accident" it was the response to "the accident" by a rider who is and has represented the US at the highest levels.

To all - I am sorry, but I have a really bad feeling about how all this is playing out. And I truly feel that this will turn out worse for everyone the longer things stay in silent mode. There is a growing rift, esp. accross the pond. It will not be helpful. Who was it twitled while Rome burned?

SCFarm

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 09:53 AM
I don't think very many people are "supporting" Amy's decision. In hindsight, it was quite obviously a very, very bad call.

And, just guessing, but I think it's pretty unlikely that the FEI will "support" her decision either.

FrittSkritt
May. 2, 2007, 09:55 AM
The YouTube video's quality is, at best, crappy. Best bet is to download the feed from MediaZone (or maybe someone can splice their .wmv copy and put it up, instead of this "video of a video" that's been posted on YouTube).

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 09:58 AM
erin- i am new here and dont want to much uproar! lol

but they must understand that by supporting amy the rest of the world look on in horror that they might just be supporting her actions!

magnolia73
May. 2, 2007, 10:01 AM
Erin-
there has been more than one eventer saying- look - it can happen. A couple of people whose opinions I value have said that when you are out galloping and your horse steps funny, you might think its a clip or slipped boot. Though my proportions of supporters are clearly off.


I know that I've been on horses that took a funny step and were off for a few strides and then worked out of it.


I know I have been on course had my horse go around, stumble, yank off a shoe, felt funny for a couple of strides then be fine.


Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash.


There was 10 seconds between the bobble and the fence... cut that in half to give time for it being too close to bring the horse back after locking into a fence. She had 5 seconds to assess the situation, make a decision, and get a horse full of adrenaline going at a high speed, pulled up and stopped. That's a lot to do in 5 seconds. Think about a car accident - what decisions have you been able to make in the first 5 seconds of the accident?



To me, it also looked like he caught a shoe, was recovering. and from the time line others posted, I seriously do not think anyone else could have pulled their horses up in time NOT to jump that fence and stay safe.


come on people, i have had experience with riding at a *** level, and let me tell you most horses do not "lock on" to fences once they are tired and near the end of a course, they tend to look flat and semi-uninterested. Amy in my eyes did nothing wrong. I've seen horses act that uncomfortable because they overreached and ripped their shoe off badly, but if that was the case she probably would've kicked herself for not jumping the last fence


How many of you have been out on XC and never had your horse bang itself or take a funny step? I know I have. Your first instinct is to pull up (which it looks like Amy considered) and then you say, well I'll just give it a couple strides to see if he just banged himself.


But I have galloped a tired, well trained and extremely fit horse down to a fence, had the horse trip and have to make that split second evaluation. Was that a shoe? Is she too tired to jump? Is she injured? You're pumping with adrenalin yourself--your ears are roaring because you are just as exhausted as your horse, your breathing and his breathing are loud enough together but then add in the crowd on the final fence. If you clucked to your horse, and said, "Hey buddy, you alright?" and he picked up a new lead and cantered on, you would think "Alright, minus a shoe but he seems game enough".



I come about my feeling through my own experince at the CCIs. We had a steeplechase phase where my horse hit really soft ground, took a really funky step, came straight up into my face but then kept going. On video you can see that he subsequently takes several odd steps while I never felt that anything was out of whack. Admittedly, I did think of a moment about pulling up but at the same time it felt like he was just on a crossfire so it was nothing unusual. Because of that I will not judge. It is not my right.

Gnep
May. 2, 2007, 10:02 AM
One important point, other sports, require their super stars to stand above the crowd at all times and penalize them constantly for minor infractions, even if their actions happend in the haze of adrenalin and under the emense preasure of competition.

Has the FEI ever DQed a Eventer because of his/her conduct on course ?

And why are the write ups on the USEventing Web Page white washed, censored, as in it did not happen, the DQ.

It is a rather big story if the Bronce Medal winner of The WEGs gets DQed because of conduct and should not get swept under the rug.

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 10:06 AM
Flintus, please understand the difference between supporting HER and supporting HER ACTIONS.

If your child did something horribly, terribly stupid, would you stop "supporting" him or her?

The eventing community is a small one and Amy is one who has been around a long time and did what a lot of us ammies can only dream about -- getting to major events while actually having a real job. :winkgrin: I think it's a bit much to expect people to suddenly hate on someone who they have watched and respected for a long time.

I think people are very upset at the incident, and very disappointed in Amy, but it's not like this is a pattern of behavior with her. And perhaps that's why it's so hard for people who do respect and admire her -- or have til this point -- to understand what happened.

RAyers
May. 2, 2007, 10:07 AM
I haven't seen the video, but I have read a lot of the commentary.

If _I_ were on the FEI committee, I think _I_ would be focusing on what happened in the previous few fences.

My understanding (and I hope the vets will correct me if I am wrong) is that that kind of "complete" ligament failure happens because the horse is tired, and the muscles are no longer capable of doing thier job, putting all the load on the ligments. (Unlike a broken bone, or a simpler tear to a branch of a ligament, which can be the result of a single bad step.)

If I were looking to see if there was an "error of judgement", I would be focusing on the time BEFORE the injury, more than on the time between the injury and the finish line.


Janet, and others, here is what we understand from human ligament failures when no outside forces are involved. Think about how a football player blows an ACL just running down the field in the 2nd half.

Muscles by themsleves are much stronger than the ligaments. It is believed that ligaments provide a mechanical/neurological feedback attenuating the muscle response. Ligaments gain laxity as time goes on and the feedback to the muscles drops off. The MUSCLES literally tear the ligaments while still supporting the joint so the athelete continues to play. This is why a tendon blow causes a catastrophic failure as Gnep describes but a ligament failure is much more subtle.

It is very hard to detect ligament failures because of the mechanicosensory system. There are some pain sensors but not as we would think. You can go a long time on failing ligaments without knowing, hence why juman atheletes continue to play in a game until "pop." There are some rather large research studies trying to figure out what is really happening. Hopefully this data can then be used in the equine sports.

Reed

flintus
May. 2, 2007, 10:07 AM
from people who think they may have lost a shoe, a boot, tripped...the horse lost ALL supporting ligaments in that leg! this isnt some small skip to the side . i dont mean this to be as rude as it sounds but she is a large lady, maybe she just couldnt feel what really had happened. netherless, you should always slow down/pull up in doubt. to not to makes your skills as a horse person pretty awful and self centred

beeblebrox
May. 2, 2007, 10:14 AM
"Spoilsport
I must live a different planet, because I've seen lower level riders in just about every equestrian discipline make errors of judgment that had huge consequences for the horse, and no one even said "boo" "

1) Amy is at the top rung of the sport and a ambassador to the sport.
2) The world is watching that caliber of rider closely, they have to be more diligent as a lot of the perception (RIGHT OR WRONG) is based on what the media, joe public and young up and coming riders see going on at that top
3) A lower level rider RIGHT OR WRONG making that same mistake would not have the visibility a top rider in a world wide broadcast event either. NOr would they like Amy given a speech in the proceeding days about knowing your horse blah blah blah. I think even the lower level event boo boo's should receive some level of disciplinary action.
4) I do not think Amy should not be banned or fined money but a smart smack on the wrist is going to be about the least the FEI can get away with considering the visibility and future of the sport. The lay person average rider may not be able to tell when a rider really uses bad judgment on a fence that causes death or injury but ANYONE including my non horsey husband could see that horse was LAME and TIRED and being PUSHED beyond normal reason. We watched the grainy video and you know what you could tell and we bought the whole event and it was even more tragic to watch in clear focus.

5) life lessons come hard and my thoughts are with the horse and my feeling of sadness for Amy is real. I imagine every second of everyday is filled at the moment with woulda shoulda coulda right now and right now the world is not living under the what's past is prolog!

useventers
May. 2, 2007, 10:15 AM
Has anyone heard or read the current status of Le Samurai?

InVA
May. 2, 2007, 10:17 AM
And Erin or is it ERIN, smack the shit out snoopy. Gives a great cartoon dog a bad name.

I think its is ironic that Snoopy gets chastised for stating his opinion while someone else can get away with saying "smack the shit out of him".. nice.

Row Wisco, Row!
May. 2, 2007, 10:22 AM
My understanding (and I hope the vets will correct me if I am wrong) is that that kind of "complete" ligament failure happens because the horse is tired, and the muscles are no longer capable of doing thier job, putting all the load on the ligments. (Unlike a broken bone, or a simpler tear to a branch of a ligament, which can be the result of a single bad step.)

If I were looking to see if there was an "error of judgement", I would be focusing on the time BEFORE the injury, more than on the time between the injury and the finish line.

Janet, thank you as always...
For a fresh perspective. I agree completely with this approach of going back before the final turn. That's been hashed to death, but no one's paying much attention to what happened before those final, fateful seconds.

And re: the ligaments...
(no I'm not a vet, but I work in ortho. sports med) There is a possibility that fatigue can play a role in such situations, but it's not the only possibility.

When a muscle is weak, fatigued or overloaded (either by weight or by an extremely rapid acceleration or deceleration), the work is often shifted to to tendons. A human tendon is capable of producing upwards of 18,000 psi of 'pull.' That's just astonishing, especialy considering these structures are typically larger and even stronger in horses, and those of the leg are particularly adept because of their nearly constant role in both postural and dynamic support. If muscle and tendon fail, the next thing to bear the brunt is the ligaments--providers of both dynamic and static stability, the relative %age of which depends on the specific structure, but really a backup mechanism for the more dynamic muscle/tendon in many ways--and static stability provided by the bony anatomy. Unfortunately for the horse, those are some pretty small legs to support the rest of the body--it's really amazing when you think about it. Also remember where a horse's center of gravity lies, typically somehwere around the shoulder-girth area depending on the individual. It could have been the result of severe joint hyperextension when the dynamic support was tuckered out--I haven't stopped to do the math, but when a horse is travelling that fast, there are likely tens of thousands of psi.


As far as the ligaments, they are the backup protection for a joint. If there is a situation of extemely fast loading, particularly if coupled with an eccentric (or decelerating and lengthening force, typically much weaker than the concentric or shortening force) muscular contraction, ligament failure is a definite possibility because of the decreased ability of the muscle/tendon to provide adequate dynamic control. This could be the result of landing over a fence just wrong. I'm inclined to wonder if he didn't take a bad landing somewhere previously in the course. The point at which he seems to break down appears to be at the top of a rise when he goes to swap leads around the bend, and it seems like it may have been the final insult to a previously damaged structure when it was given a more important role during the new lead.

There is also the possibility of cumulative damage that finally reared its ugly head. Upper level horses frequently have their legs scanned, but depending on the specific modality used to do so (most typically xray and usound), and the exact parameters used, you will have a different capacity to view structures. I have no doubt, however, that if there was any question whatsoever beforehand about the structural integrity of this horse's leg he would not have been run. A short amount of R&R can prevent catastrophic consequences and any good horse person knows that and is more than willing to bide their time.

I'm curious to go back and watch the video. Not to provide fodder for the basis of passing judgement (I've already got my POV anyway), but to view it with a critical eye. My inner scientist is dying to geek out here, as should everyone's. What's done is done, but we can and should take this time to learn from Amy & Sparky's terrible misfortune.

Thinking good thoughts for Sparky and all involved :)

Erin
May. 2, 2007, 10:22 AM
Gosh, InVA, you couldn't find anything worth commenting on in the most recent 5, 10 pages? That post is ancient history.

Snoopy got chastized not for expressing an opinion, but for doing so in a combative manner. I wholeheartedly apologize for missing one snarky post in a thread full of them, but I think I did actually leave the computer to go to the bathroom once yesterday afternoon, and that one must have slipped through. Guess I'll get myself some of those astronaut diapers so I don't make that mistake again!

Janet
May. 2, 2007, 10:24 AM
Janet, and others, here is what we understand from human ligament failures when no outside forces are involved. Think about how a football player blows an ACL just running down the field in the 2nd half.

Muscles by themsleves are much stronger than the ligaments. It is believed that ligaments provide a mechanical/neurological feedback attenuating the muscle response. Ligaments gain laxity as time goes on and the feedback to the muscles drops off. The MUSCLES literally tear the ligaments while still supporting the joint so the athelete continues to play. This is why a tendon blow causes a catastrophic failure as Gnep describes but a ligament failure is much more subtle.

It is very hard to detect ligament failures because of the mechanicosensory system. There are some pain sensors but not as we would think. You can go a long time on failing ligaments without knowing, hence why juman atheletes continue to play in a game until "pop." There are some rather large research studies trying to figure out what is really happening. Hopefully this data can then be used in the equine sports.

Reed
Reed, I am going to paraphrase to make sure I understand. Please correct me if I am drawing the wrong conclusions.

1- Because of the nature of ligament failure, there had probably been some ligament damage well before the last fence.

2- Because of the ligament "failure mode", there may not have been any pain (detectable by the horse) or easily detectable "lameness" or "off" steps (detectable by the rider) until "the last straw" gave way.

3- Fatique may have been a significant contributing factor.

RAyers
May. 2, 2007, 10:26 AM
Reed, I am going to paraphrase to make sure I understand. Please correct me if I am drawing the wrong conclusions.

1- Because of the nature of ligament failure, there had probably been some ligament damage well before the last fence.

2- Because of the ligament "failure mode", there may not have been any pain (detectable by the horse) or easily detectable "lameness" or "off" steps (detectable by the rider) until "the last straw" gave way.

3- Fatique may have been a significant contributing factor.

You are totally correct.

And here is another thing that will smoke your brains. A friend of mine (a known eventing official) in her Master's Thesis, describes how HEAT build up in tissues from exercise will denature the proteins in ligaments and tendons setting up tissue failure. Protective tack such as Porter Wraps, leather galloping boots can CONTRIBUTE to ligament and tendon failure over extended athletic efforts because they hold the heat in the leg. This is also why icing immediately after XC is good.


Reed

akor
May. 2, 2007, 10:26 AM
Some of my issue with this and why I post one more time is that as I come to think about it more, this wasn't "one" decision, it was many many decisions, each stride/step that horse took, the rider chose to continue her path. It almost seems like it's a bad decision compounded by a series of bad decisions (hmm..... I sure know how that goes.... guilty of it myself). It wasn't a one off decision by an means. There were so many chances to take a different path, so much time, even right at the end with the decision to cross the finish line. But, it's also part of being human. We have to factor in pride, emotion, adreneline rushes, competitiveness, escalation of commitment, determination, etc....

Does it matter that she had many decisions to make, one for each stride and the jump and whether to leap off, etc...versus just one? I'm not sure. Just something I have been pondering after letting this sit for a night.

I have ridden with broken bones (minor) and not healed bones (more major) and the pain actually focused me. And, jthat was "just" for little local area awards. I can't imagine what the pressure is like at Rolex. But, could I make a horse do it, make several decisions to keep riding when something was wrong, I just didn't know how bad it was? I don't really know. To be politically correct, the answer is No. But, in reality, I think it's like abortion. I like to think I know what I'd do if I got pregnant, but I don't know until it happens (knocking on wood).

Lisamarie8
May. 2, 2007, 10:26 AM
Guess I'll get myself some of those astronaut diapers so I don't make that mistake again!

Erin, really, I think a catheter would be a safer bet. If you go the astronaut diaper route, the next thing we know we may find you in a parking garage with some rubber tubing and a mallet. I've heard there is a correlation between the two.

Granted there is some initial discomfort regarding the catheterization, but I think that out weighs the ongoing discomfort of the diaper. I'm almost certain it's that unpleasantness that sends people on a one way trip to loony-town.

Maybe that could explain some of the people on this thread?

monstrpony
May. 2, 2007, 10:28 AM
I wholeheartedly apologize for missing one snarky post in a thread full of them, but I think I did actually leave the computer to go to the bathroom once yesterday afternoon, and that one must have slipped through. Guess I'll get myself some of those astronaut diapers so I don't make that mistake again!

**Station Break**

I just gotta say, Erin, you are da bomb! I honestly don't know how you keep your sanity, never mind your level-headedness, through things like this. I admire you up one side and down t'other!

**Back to Your Regularly Scheduled Programming**

moonriverfarm
May. 2, 2007, 10:30 AM
The video is no longer on youtube. If anyone knows how it can be seen, please let us know.

Ja Da Dee
May. 2, 2007, 10:32 AM
You should still be able to buy it for $8 at NBC.

Then you can acutally see the whole day's worth of rides including the first 32/33rds of AT's ride.