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View Full Version : Well it [I]was [/I]about Le Samurai's condition.....Not so much now.



Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:17 PM
Ok so I just called Rood and Riddle and here's what they're saying right now.

He is comfortable and Dr. Morrison is still assesing him.

No updates beyond that and no idea when/if an update will be issued.

~Emily

buschkn
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:21 PM
Does anyone know what happened? A friend called and said he came up very lame at the end of the course and they put up tarps so she feared the worst but didn't know since obviously they don't make announcements about it. Did he have a fall or a bad step? Anyone have any ideas? Jingles that he is ok...

pinkngreen
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:26 PM
He landed after the second to last and was galloping fine then suddenly was galloping 3 legged a good bit before the last fence.

clivers
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:30 PM
Thanks for the news Emily.
Buschkn - he appeared to suddenly go very lame in front just before the turn to the last fence. He took several very off canter strides (and it looked like Amy was deciding whether or not to pull up). Nevertheless, they took the last fence and he jumped it ok and cantered a couple of better looking strides after. She pulled up immediately and in trot/walk it was clear he was very lame (left front, I think). Barely weight bearing if at all. Jingling like mad for Amy and her wonderful horse - he was a superstar all day - huge heart!!!

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:30 PM
Ok a little more info from research:

Dr. Scott Morrison was just inducted into the International Equine Veterinarians Hall of Fame. He was the podiatrist (sp?) who worked on Barbaro close to the end.

Here's the staff page:

http://www.roodandriddle.com/staff.php


~Emily

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:34 PM
On the link supplied on the heath ryan thread they are saying Le Samurai collapsed at the finish?

clivers
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:34 PM
Ok a little more info from research:

Dr. Scott Morrison was just inducted into the International Equine Veterinarians Hall of Fame. He was the podiatrist (sp?) who worked on Barbaro close to the end.

Here's the staff page:

http://www.roodandriddle.com/staff.php


~Emily

So maybe a coffin bone fracture or something? obviously I'm just guessing wildly - not trying to start a rumour here!

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:35 PM
So maybe a coffin bone fracture or something? obviously I'm just guessing wildly - not trying to start a rumour here!

That actually wouldn't be so bad... those heal. Ask me how I know...

clivers
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:37 PM
That actually wouldn't be so bad... those heal. Ask me how I know...

Ditto :)
Hoping so badly for good news!!!

Re: the collapse - no, he just broke down in front - 3 legged.

RunForIt
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:39 PM
let's wait and have someone who really has reliable information post it here please - this is a great horse/ridr combo - need to wait - yes, its difficult, but can you only imagine the anguish Amy and the owner are going through right now? :( :eek:

subk
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:40 PM
That actually wouldn't be so bad... those heal. Ask me how I know...
Not only do they heal I know of at least one horse, Montana Native, that not only continued his upper level career but got back to Rolex after a coffin bone fracture.

annikak
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:41 PM
In every part of my heart and soul, I hope no one second guesses Amy and her decision. I saw, as did Clivers, Amys difficult moment. Anyone that was there watching the jumbotron saw it too.

I can only imagine that she is going to be second guessing herself forever, and as a rider, I can only imagine how that might feel. I heard a lot of the questioning and the blaming and just thought..."who is blaming and questioning...have they ever been there at the end of a ****? Been that tired, been that close to the end?"

Amy (and I again do not know her other then hearing her speak at the USPC meeting, and the USEA meeting) seems to be a wonderful horseman, who truly lets her horses be who they are. I watched her entire ride and was close to a few of the fences where she came by and she had a lovely, quiet, patient ride with him.

So, I've heard some of the news from another vet, it is not probably good news, but I shall allow them to tell the tale themselves. In the meantime, I hope that we as horsemen can feel her sorrow and pain at the end of a lovely ride.

NO RUMORS PLEASE! I am sure that as soon as someone gets the offical okay, that they will post. Thanks, CLivers for posting, I had just posted the same on the Heath thread! ;-)

RunForIt
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:41 PM
thanks for the positive thinking, subk! :cool: I've watched this horse a lot lately and just love him. Plus, "Sparky" is a family name here, so of course, we love him! :cool:

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:46 PM
Ok relayed from Charlie in the Press Tent at Rolex:

Dr. Kathy Kohn just made a brief statement and then took no questions. Since I am not there and Charlie just gave me what he heard in highlights, here goes..

She said he "Lost the ligaments in the left front. By the fetlock. (That would be suspensory according to my Illustrated Vet Enclyopedia) Supporting ligaments.(What she said) He has no broken bones."

Charlie also reports that she used the word "lost" at least twice.

No mention of being life threatening or to clarify the term "lost."

Again she left with no questions taken from the media to head over there right now.

~Emily

JINGLING for both Amy and Le Samurai

LLDM
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:55 PM
Thanks for the update. Just saw an article about reattaching either tendons or ligaments - cutting edge stuff. Now where the HECK did I see it? Going off to look!

Here's hoping that technology is on our side and has a really good answer to this question!

Huge jingles to Samuria and Amy!

SCFarm

wabadou
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:05 PM
Posted on NBC WEBcast site right after it happened:

Ok, I've never evented at that level and know the riders have to be so intense but I was really, really surprised after his big bobble and almost running on 3 legs after, to see her push him on around the corner and over the jump. He was very obviously DEAD lame coming up to the corner and coming round into the last, it looked so much like a racetrack breakdown with him still running on an obviously injured leg. I really thought she'd pull up and surprised he stayed up after that huge jumping effort on an injured leg. What a huge hearted horse!! I pray it's not serious but it didn't look good.
Trying to understand why he wasn't pulled up when so obviously hurting but much easier for me to question from the ground watching rather than being in the saddle.

wabadou
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:07 PM
Posted that previous post before I saw the post about the vet's announcement, sorry.

Jingles for Le Samurai and Amy T....What a big hearted horse!

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:17 PM
"Veterinarian Cathy Kohn said in a statement that his supporting ligaments have lost their function and that after the leg was splinted Le Samurai was transported to Hagyard's clinic across the road, where a cast was applied and the horse was made comfortable to rest and recover. "



From a friend in the press center.



~Emily

annikak
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:25 PM
Emily, from my friend who is a vet at Haygard, its my understanding that he is at Haygard, and not at Rood and Riddle. Not sure...but where did you get your information that he is at Rood and Riddle?

Sorry- posted at the same time! He is at Haygard, then....

NeverTime
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:30 PM
For those of you who were near the finish line, did anyone notice Gryffindor pull up? On the Web cast, he looked quite off as she brought him to the walk -- he took 5-6 hinky steps, she swung off and the camera went away. I've been thinking he pulled up lame, but there's no mention of any problems in the articles about how she's in the lead. I'm hoping that's because he's fine afterall?

magnolia73
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:32 PM
Wow. that must be tough. To make it safely around 'til the last jump. I hope the horse makes a full recovery and that Amy, his rider is OK.

It's always heartbreaking to read of anything like this happening. I can't imagine the sadness the rider must feel in these cases. I think that every one of us that rides would rather we be injured than our horse.

annikak
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:37 PM
Yes, I did see that.

Rumor has it that one horse around that time actually went into A-fib, but I did not hear it was that horse. I thought he looked NQR also.... The horse that someone said DID go into A-fib looked good to me, but I was not there nor do I really know for sure. I think there are SO many people, and SO many volunteers that there are probable mis-communications. The tale will be told at the jog tomorrow.

JAGold
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:40 PM
I hope he recovers well. Amy must be devastated.

Emily, I'm confused by your first post -- if the horse is at Haygard, then why did R&R say they were treating him? :confused: --Jess


Ok so I just called Rood and Riddle and here's what they're saying right now.

He is comfortable and Dr. Morrison is still assesing him.

No updates beyond that and no idea when/if an update will be issued.

~Emily

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:50 PM
Yeah and welcome to what I am trying to sort out right now.

Ok have called both now...

Rood and Riddle says: "Well he was here but then his owner came and picked him up" (Which makes no sense to transport a horse twice with this injury but ok whatever)

Hagyard says: They don't know when he got there originally as the person I spoke to came on later. and further have no clue if he went to Rood and Riddle first. But agrees that would be silly considering.

But did verify he is in a cast and on fluids.

Sorry for the double talk. This is why journalism can sometimes be frustrating. Even the "direct sources" don't always have it right.

~Emily

JAGold
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah and welcome to what I am trying to sort out right now.

Ok have called both now...

Rood and Riddle says: "Well he was here but then his owner came and picked him up" (Which makes no sense to transport a horse twice with this injury but ok whatever)

Hagyard says: They don't know when he got there originally as the person I spoke to came on later. and further have no clue if he went to Rood and Riddle first. But agrees that would be silly considering.

But did verify he is in a cast and on fluids.

Sorry for the double talk. This is why journalism can sometimes be frustrating. Even the "direct sources" don't always have it right.

~Emily
Bizarre. I'm also surprised either place is willing to give out information over the phone -- I know animals don't get the same HIPAA protection as people, but still.

Regardless, I am sure that the horse is getting the best care available, and that is all that really matters. --Jess

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:06 PM
Bizarre. I'm also surprised either place is willing to give out information over the phone -- I know animals don't get the same HIPAA protection as people, but still.

Regardless, I am sure that the horse is getting the best care available, and that is all that really matters. --Jess

I also agree with that. First of all no one should be calling the hospitals, and second of all I work for Hagyards and know that they would out patient information unless you are an owner/trainer.

Please DO NOT call the hospitals for information, it is not your place since this is not your horse, the information will be released in press releases.

Reynard Ridge
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:10 PM
Please DO NOT call the hospitals for information, it is not your place since this is not your horse, the information will be released in press releases.


Sorry for the double talk. This is why journalism can sometimes be frustrating. Even the "direct sources" don't always have it right. ~Emily

When one is a journalist, I do believe that digging for information is your job description. ;)

grzywinskia
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:32 PM
All of this information is confusing, I used to be a tech at Hagyards and second Simply Sweet that there is no way that they'd give you that info unless you have an inside source. As for Scott Morrison (who I know very well) treating him, that seems quite bizarre unless Le Samurai foundered from the last jump to the finish (insert sarcasm) as Scott doesn't typically handle acute coffin bone fractures. As this is already traumatic and heartwrenching enough for the horse's connections, I am not sure why people are posting false information. Le Samurai and connnections are in my prayers

sofiethewonderhorse
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:34 PM
In every part of my heart and soul, I hope no one second guesses Amy and her decision. I saw, as did Clivers, Amys difficult moment. Anyone that was there watching the jumbotron saw it too.

I can only imagine that she is going to be second guessing herself forever, and as a rider, I can only imagine how that might feel. I heard a lot of the questioning and the blaming and just thought..."who is blaming and questioning...have they ever been there at the end of a ****? Been that tired, been that close to the end?"

Amy (and I again do not know her other then hearing her speak at the USPC meeting, and the USEA meeting) seems to be a wonderful horseman, who truly lets her horses be who they are. I watched her entire ride and was close to a few of the fences where she came by and she had a lovely, quiet, patient ride with him.

So, I've heard some of the news from another vet, it is not probably good news, but I shall allow them to tell the tale themselves. In the meantime, I hope that we as horsemen can feel her sorrow and pain at the end of a lovely ride.

NO RUMORS PLEASE! I am sure that as soon as someone gets the offical okay, that they will post. Thanks, CLivers for posting, I had just posted the same on the Heath thread! ;-)

I do know Amy, she rides our horse, Coal Creek.

Amy is an incredible horsewoman and the attention the horses that are in her care receive is beyond amazing.

Annikak, thank you for posting this it is WRONG to second guess a top riders decision. None of us were on that horse, in that moment, thinking those thoughts.

Our hearts need to go out to Mrs. Broussard as well, it's been another tough year for her between Ralph and now Le Samurai.

Aleen
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:52 PM
You're right about the second guessing - which could have gone either way. He could have clipped/stung himself and have been fine - in which case pulling up would have been the wrong thing. I expect adrenaline kicks in for the horse as well - I know it did when I evented and fell - I was wild to get back on and finish myself.

Still, one of the most moving interviews I ever watched was Torrance Watkins (Fleishman I believe at that point) after the ?1986 World Cup in Australia where Finvarra stumbled in the water and really walloped his head. He came out okay but then galloping up a long uphill climb towards the finish, she said that he started to bleed and it was flying back at her but he was galloping on. So, knowing that the team had to have her score not to be eliminated, she continued - but said that she would second guess herself forever (and, yes, the horse recovered from what turned out, I believe, to be a skull fragment fracture.)

Good vibes to Amy and the horse - not a clear-cut case and I am sure she would not have continued had she not assessed it as doable in a very quick decision-making process with the fence coming at them. I agree the horse galloped on after the fence looking better until after the finish line.

Aleen Thomas
Windy Hollow Hunt
NY

retreadeventer
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:18 PM
Going on what was related in the press conference from the vet, that it was ligament in nature - why, that's pretty good news on the whole, because these heal - and horses come back just fine from them, life goes on -- I don't see it as a grand tragedy really! Amy made the right decision, I don't blame her a bit, the horse is in good hands, why it is quite good really considering.

clivers
Apr. 28, 2007, 10:07 PM
For those of you who were near the finish line, did anyone notice Gryffindor pull up? On the Web cast, he looked quite off as she brought him to the walk -- he took 5-6 hinky steps, she swung off and the camera went away. I've been thinking he pulled up lame, but there's no mention of any problems in the articles about how she's in the lead. I'm hoping that's because he's fine afterall?

I noticed that too - front left. He seemed to feel better quickly, though. I guess we'll see tomorrow...

kt
Apr. 28, 2007, 10:33 PM
I was actually right near the finish line (by the vet box area) when it all happened. I was pretty far away, but I could still see very clearly as she made the turn to the last fence that something was not quite right. He looked to be slowing almost to a trot, and even the announcer noted that it looked like Sparky was tiring out. Having seen him leap and buck all over the warmup on Friday yesterday and knowing he had been clocking around XC, I thought it was a bit strange and mentioned it to my friend. As soon as he crossed the finish, all of the vets and grooms swarmed down on them. The screens were up within minutes. He was 3-legged going on the trailer. No one except the people directly involved really knew what was going on.

I, too, wondered what Amy must have felt and when she felt it. I also wondered how long that brilliant horse had been galloping and jumping in pain but just not shown it-- or if it was instaneous. I wondered if it initially felt like he might have stung or clipped himself. Regardless of all of this wondering, he is an incredible horse and never would I second-guess someone of Amy's caliber's difficult decision that had to be made in a matter of seconds.

Xctrygirl
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:00 AM
When one is a journalist, I do believe that digging for information is your job description. ;)

Ok let me be further clear about my conversations with both vet hospitals.

In both instances I specifically said that I didn't want or need personal information about Le Samurai. My purpose both times was only to determine, if they could tell me, if he was there. And thats exactly what I said verbatim.

The info given by R & R at first (That Dr. Morrison was evaluating him) was given freely. I didn't ask for this much info. I only asked if he was there.

I only called R & R a second time because of the confusion. And ditto for calling Hagyard, who I only called once. In both cases I identified myself as a member of the press and an employed horsewoman as well from the get go, explained that I was not seeking, nor did I want any personal or patient information. All I was looking for was his location to be verified if possible.

With the call to Hagyard, once they confirmed he was there I asked if they could also confirm the information from the press briefing that he was in a cast. They said yes he is and added that he was on fluids as well. Ok thanks very much.

I know the bounds of a person who is both a horsewoman who respects privacy and a freelance journalist who knows how to push gently and leave a lot of room for the privacy of the connections.

In both cases, had they said, "Sorry no comment at this time" then thats what I would have said to you all.

Meanwhile I feel I should mention that at the time of my call to Hagyard, the gentleman I spoke to said already 25 members of the media were there waiting for word.

I didn't come and hover over them, I called and asked politely for 2 full mins.
All the while full aware that they might very well not say anything.

But come on folks, the equine medical profession is very aware of the equivalents of HIPAA laws and practices. As are journalists. Especially after "He who won't be named."

~Emily

beeblebrox
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:10 AM
Hey Emily

I do not think you should have called at all. They are not your horses... Vet clinics have jobs, taking care of horses not YOUR NEED TO KNOW information on injured horses who do not belong to you

You have your opinion and I have mine!

;-(

Xctrygirl
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:14 AM
OK kids here's where Beeblebrox just jumped up for respect in my book. (Seriously, not sarcastic)

She has an opinion and respects my right to have a different one.

Thats what America was based on. Equal rights to different sides.

Beeblebrox, I respect your opinion and please know that I didn't disclose any one tidbit of info that wasn't freely given to me on the record by persons who knew my interest was for media purposes.

~Emily

JAGold
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:15 AM
I only called R & R a second time because of the confusion. And ditto for calling Hagyard, who I only called once. In both cases I identified myself as a member of the press and an employed horsewoman as well from the get go, explained that I was not seeking, nor did I want any personal or patient information.
Which media outlet are you reporting for?

Xctrygirl
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:30 AM
I was researching as much information as I could lay hands on for a few fellow writers, through requests for more information from Charlie.

Additionally I received 2 more calls from friends who are writers who were not in attendance and called to see if I knew anything or if Charlie had seen anything.

I write articles on a freelance basis and was at the Las Vegas World Cup last week helping to cover it, photograph it and do research on winners and their horses as well.

I prefer researching, as it is fun for me, to writing which makes me neurotic because I seldom can get all my words lined up to the point I am happy.

In the past 5 months I have been quoted, referenced and photographed for a few different kinds of media. (The Blood Horse, Shelley Mickle's Barbaro Book, Yankee Pedlar, Capital OTB show, ummm Oldfields Magazine(School mag) and of course, Charlie's new book on photography and Equestrian Edge Book Club Magazine, for the cover pic)


~Emily

T
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:30 AM
sorry guys, but i'm going against convention here and calling a bad. we owe it to our horses. it was clear that sparky was off (took quite a few ugly steps) at least 6 strides before the last jump. we all saw it. his rider looked down and quite obviously knew something was wrong. she had more than enough time to stop him. you just don't let a horse jump in that condition. i don't care if you're in line to win rolex or trotting your pony over a crosspole. there is a line between being a courageous eventer who refuses to give up and instinctively, automatically prioritizing your horse over victory. i love eventing (if only i could find some in my new home!) and am not a member of PETA in hiding. but incidents like this rightly warrant scrutiny. flame if you wish, i really don't mind. i think that these things need to be talked about and not obscured to "protect" those involved. the horses are the ones needing protection. truck on sparky! i'm rooting for you!

belambi
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:40 AM
Hear hear. I have been reading this thread in TOTAL disbelief. Thankyou to someone for allowing common sense and respect for the horse to be brought into the discussion.
However.. I did not see it..just commenting on the info given so far.

PiedPiper
Apr. 29, 2007, 08:07 AM
Wow, it is so easy to be Monday morning quarterbacks, isn't it. :rolleyes: :sigh: How on earth do you know what you would or wouldn't do in this type of situation? Jesus Christ people, let's get some more information before we send out the lynch mobs okay?

BigRuss1996
Apr. 29, 2007, 08:13 AM
I totally agree, and actually I have spoken now with more then one extremely good source who was there and they said people along the ropes were yelling at her to pull up and that he was lame. In Amy's defense we don't know what she felt up on his back and maybe he didn't feel as bad as he looked though not sure how he couldn't.
It was very sad. I just can't help but think she must not have known it was so bad. She is not an inexperienced rider who wouldn't know better and she cares alot about her horses and isn't one to keep going out of ego. Not sure why but I think this definately needs to be looked into by someone....possibly even our new safety committee. I mean.... is continuing on and jumping an obviously lame horse safe?? I would think not. What if he hadn't landed fine and has collapsed and crushed her... then we'd be having yet another long thread on how dangerous the sport is. Riders have the ability to make that decision but why don't some of them?.... That would be a good question I would think. Would this be considered excessive pressing of a tired or inured horse?? I don't think we will ever know. I just hope for his sake and the Amy and the owners that he is okay. He is a really nice horse and it would be a shame. It doesn't sound too promising though. It depends on whats torn and how repairable it is. Also if he gets adhesions, etc.



sorry guys, but i'm going against convention here and calling a bad. we owe it to our horses. it was clear that sparky was off (took quite a few ugly steps) at least 6 strides before the last jump. we all saw it. his rider looked down and quite obviously knew something was wrong. she had more than enough time to stop him. you just don't let a horse jump in that condition. i don't care if you're in line to win rolex or trotting your pony over a crosspole. there is a line between being a courageous eventer who refuses to give up and instinctively, automatically prioritizing your horse over victory. i love eventing (if only i could find some in my new home!) and am not a member of PETA in hiding. but incidents like this rightly warrant scrutiny. flame if you wish, i really don't mind. i think that these things need to be talked about and not obscured to "protect" those involved. the horses are the ones needing protection. truck on sparky! i'm rooting for you!

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2007, 10:05 AM
Indeed none of us knows what we would do in this scenario--and that goes for the rider's defenders as well as her detractors. Personally I would like to believe I'd have the ability to make the right decision at the right moment...who doesn't? Whether or not the horse's rider did so is open to debate, and is here being debated. Nothing wrong with that.

Haven't seen the incident, kind of don't want to. A very sad situation, and no doubt shines another unhappy light on the sport. But huffing at fellow horse people whose opinion varies on "what might have been" is sort of useless.

clivers
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:06 AM
I was researching as much information as I could lay hands on for a few fellow writers, through requests for more information from Charlie.

Additionally I received 2 more calls from friends who are writers who were not in attendance and called to see if I knew anything or if Charlie had seen anything.

I write articles on a freelance basis and was at the Las Vegas World Cup last week helping to cover it, photograph it and do research on winners and their horses as well.

I prefer researching, as it is fun for me, to writing which makes me neurotic because I seldom can get all my words lined up to the point I am happy.

In the past 5 months I have been quoted, referenced and photographed for a few different kinds of media. (The Blood Horse, Shelley Mickle's Barbaro Book, Yankee Pedlar, Capital OTB show, ummm Oldfields Magazine(School mag) and of course, Charlie's new book on photography and Equestrian Edge Book Club Magazine, for the cover pic)


~Emily

Emily,
I for one appreciate your efforts and the respectful way in which you have proceeded. I think people are taking some of their stress about the incident out on the messenger here...Nevertheless thank you for your updates - I'm not in the Rolex press tent (or anywhere near) and would be clueless and even more distressed without your information.
Still Jingling...

flyingchange
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:28 AM
:no:

beeblebrox
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:40 AM
"PiedPiper
Wow, it is so easy to be Monday morning quarterbacks, isn't it. How on earth do you know what you would or wouldn't do in this type of situation? Jesus Christ people, let's get some more information before we send out the lynch mobs okay?"

Weather it was adrenalin or her lack of identifying and recognizing his issue MANY people (including 2 friends watching at the end of course who called and could not believe how lame he was before he jumped) could see he was in peril and she did not pull up. I think "some" people are just praying it was not her zeal to win the Rolex event that "may" have clouded her judgment, I do not personally agree with that as I do not think any top rider would do that. ON the other side though your adrenalin is really pumping and sometimes judgement is not what it is in normal situations.
I am sorry if you feel it was ok she continued but people are allowed their opinions without a smarmy comment of being a MMQ or Jesus Christ also sorry that you are not willing to allow others to voice (or pen) their opinions. I do not feel anyone is lynching this woman who rides to a level less than a % on this board ever will. As with any situation it is being discussed which is OK.. really ms. piper

Try a Hail Mary for the horse and allow people there opinions

I DO FEEL very badly for her as she is so much in the public eye and I would never want the world watching in the capacity that these TOP riders have. I am sure she feels awful and is sick for worry about her horse and I wish her and the horse the best. The public eye is a wicked place but riders and celebrities chose that life path. As the saying goes if you can not take the heat do not stay in the pan!

mbj
Apr. 29, 2007, 01:28 PM
Didn't see it . Don't want to. However, adrenalin or not I kind of doubt a rider would continue if they thought their horse was really hurt, because this is a 3 day event, guys, and one would not expect to pass the 3rd day jog up with a seriously hurt horse. It's not like a race where you might actually win if you press on. So the speculation that the rider continued on ignoring lameness in order to win just doesn't make sense.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2007, 01:31 PM
Speaking for myself, my reactions in frightening or very suddenly dangerous scenarios do not extend much beyond the next couple of seconds/minutes.

Tom King
Apr. 29, 2007, 01:52 PM
I saw it. Without any replay though and from the live feed. I think it felt different up than it looked from the ground. The wrong step looked only like a slip on the footing with the right front which was the inside front in the last turn. I'll bet it felt like a slip too. The injury could have well been caused by the slip.

I'll withold judgement on Amy and only offer her a hug. I have no doubt it will replay in her mind thousands of times for the rest of her life.

Everyone who saw it learned something from it. Those who have never made a judgement call that you wished you had to do over, feel free to cast the first stone.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:12 PM
Just saw it myself. Looked awful--clearly a catastrophic breakdown. It also looks as if the horse was able to carry on bravely. THOROUGHBRED. I, too, will withhold judgment on the rider but man, that looked awful. :no:

redlight
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:12 PM
It's unfortunate in that instead of people saying what a great horsewoman Amy was for pulling up her horse before the last jump there will be endless debate on whether she did the right thing. I'm sure she feels terrible but there is nothing we can do now that it has happened except pray that Le Samurai recovers. I do think that going forward there should be some ruling by the USEA/USEF that if a horse comes up lame while on course whether from pulling a shoe or otherwise that it be forced to pull up. What is worse being eliminated or injuring your horse? Not trying to play Monday morning quarterback, just my opinion.

RunForIt
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:16 PM
Thank you, Tom for your comment...

I was wondering as I trotted around my field this morning - what responsibility does a jump judge have in this sort of scenario...if a horse appears lame or in distress approaching an obstacle the jump judge can warn them off the fence - I did it once at a rather major 3*** event.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:19 PM
There certainly are such stipulations in place, but the officials can't be everywhere all the time and my guess is that by the time anyone might have thought to even say something, it was over. There may have been 20 seconds between the breakdown and the end of the course--not enough time for much reaction. It's not like the horse went half a mile on 3 legs. :no:

RunForIt
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:35 PM
Thanks, DW, - my post was to encourage everyone to think about what occurred from more than one perspective - AFTER THE FACT! I missed Amy's ride as I was out riding and will not watch now. I am thinking that we don't need to take the BB into the muck second-guessing and moralizing what Amy Tryon "should've" done...:cool:

canyonoak
Apr. 29, 2007, 02:52 PM
I have great respect for Amy Tryon as a horse person and a person in general.

Over the years, I've made bad judgment calls as well as good judgment calls on horses, on life decisions, on what to do in the next five minutes.

I can only repeat what has been said-- everyone out there who has the right--please, be my guest and cast the first stone.

purpleice
Apr. 29, 2007, 03:05 PM
well said tom.

and i'm sure amy does need a hug.

but to take the personal out of it, we as fellow riders, may question other riders calls. and we need to, especially now with the string of very serious injuries that have occurred. but you are right, casting stones, holier-than-thou style, only places blame on someone who is probably pretty much miserable right now.

i will say that i know amy is a wonderful horsewoman, perhaps one of the most driven and cautious ones around. she loves her animals. i think this is why what happened and how is so confusing and painful.

cyberbay
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:30 PM
Hang in there, Xctrygirl. Bad form to call the clinics? Well, honestly, only if the same persons calling it bad form are above reading/listening to the facts uncovered by your phone research. And, maybe, perhaps, they are. But, most aren't, and most will want to know what you've found out.

Eventing, esp. in the form of the Rolex, is becoming a public sport. You can't have it both ways. Sponsorship, TV coverage, mainstream press coverage, well, this is part and parcel. That means intensive, instant public interest in its every aspect as the event unfolds. These clinics need to be up-to-speed on this and should have had a media person handling inquiries, although not the biggest crime not to have been prepared, just naive. The public does want to know, and not necessarily b/c it's a vulture but b/c it's human nature and many of the spectator public would like to be of help or send condolences.

fergie
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:35 PM
We should only talk about our favorite horse boots, eventing colors, and funniest horse stories on an open horse forum! We should never scrutinize accidents that injure our horse partners (possibly making people think twice the next time around) and ONLY feel sorry for their riders! How dare we! What is wrong with you people?

flyingchange
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:46 PM
fergie -

agreed.

I just watched the video ... even knowing it was about to happen could not prepare me for seeing it happen.

looked to me like he was trying to change leads and hyperflexed/over-extended his ankle/fetlock. He was dead lame and I cannot believe she didn't immediately pull him up.

fergie
Apr. 29, 2007, 04:53 PM
It always touches my heart when I see a good jockey pull up and jump off the horse when he/she feels wrong, for instance, what Edgar Prado did with Barbaro. It's a selfless act in which you have to swallow your pride ..... and take the risk of losing for nothing.... or winning by saving the horse .... We all make poor judgments in life, but hopefully learn from them, and an animal doesn't have to pay the price.

smk7b
Apr. 29, 2007, 06:20 PM
This thread was created to keep people informed of his condition. If people would like to pass judgement on the rider, please start your own thread. I for one would simply like to say I am thinking about Le Samurai and Amy and hoping for the best.

`reppy
Apr. 29, 2007, 06:34 PM
skm7b- I agree, well said. Does anyone know the offical diagnosis yet? I was watching the the live feed and loved him! Jingles for both him and Amy!

blyst99
Apr. 29, 2007, 06:58 PM
As I sat in the stands today at stadium I heard about 15 different versions of events. Everyone is just spreading rumor. I believe only words of support should be offered and not criticism. Only those closest to Amy and her horse know what happened and everyone else is just spreading rumor. No one reaches her level without being a great horseman/horsewoman and who are we to judge.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2007, 07:05 PM
It is human nature to discuss an event like this--this thread being evidence of such. People probably weren't intentionally "spreading rumors" maliciously or with any ill intent. Look at the tabloid press--the very popularity of this vile, repulsive sort of medium reflects the hard fact that human beings cannot resist discussing shocking or surprising things, even moreso when they're "bad" things. May as well condemn the entire human race for doing so, because it's just the way we are. :)

SR Rider
Apr. 29, 2007, 07:22 PM
I was a fence judge at Rolex yesterday; I assure you that when fence
judges see something wrong we call it in. Several horses hit hard at
several fences and they were called in. Also, we call in when we
feel horses are breathing hard or labored, see bleeding, etc.
FYI There were 4-6 fence judges at EACH ELEMENT on course,
plus a medic at each fence and vet techs
at nearly every fence. It takes a village....

fergie
Apr. 29, 2007, 07:36 PM
I was a fence judge at Rolex yesterday; I assure you that when fence
judges see something wrong we call it in. Several horses hit hard at
several fences and they were called in.

And ultimately it is always the rider's responsibility to know the horse and what it "feels" like. You can't expect fence judges to police everything.

fuzzydise
Apr. 29, 2007, 09:47 PM
You know the thing that still disturbes me, as a human being none the less, is why are we all so drawn to catastrophies or accidents such as this? I was up at the Duck Marsh when it happened. We saw it happen and also saw how many unrelevant people ran to the scene even after the tarps and vets, grooms, etc where there, the medic 4 wheeler and vet trailer were trying to get through a gap and the crowd control people were trying to get people out of the way but yet people crowded, and crained their necks , all to see who could see what was happening. We are all hypocrites(spelling) in some way or another. We say that noone should have called the vets for info, agreed, but should any of us why were not relevant to the scene run over there or impeded the transport of any horse or rider? Admittedly, we contemplated walking closer, but we saw such a crowd of onlookers that we thought twice. It was just as when Heath Ryan fell, there were rumors all through the crowd and people hurridly ran/walked from the first fence to the one that he fell at! Blatently to try to get a better look. It disturbes me and I was one of the ones who contemplated going closer and then thought twice. I am not sure if my point is clear, I cannot express it in words what is in my head.
I am sure that xcountrygirl is not the only one who called the vets, just the only one who admitted it.(Not necessarily speaking from only this forum, there are probably a dozen or more threads on this very subject) Everyone seems to want their moment in the spotlight to tell their account of what happened.

haligator
Apr. 29, 2007, 09:59 PM
Hi All,
Having worked in the Media Center at Rolex (as well as Fair Hill, Fox Hall, NAYRC, Metropolitan National Horse Show, etc.) as well as being a journalist - as a journalist you have to confirm facts for yourself (and sometimes for your fellow journalists), not just take the word of what you are given in a press release. Plus, sometimes the information in the press release you are given by the event organizers is incomplete or, shall we say, fuzzy. A lot can also happen AFTER you've been given the 'final' press release on an incident.

I'm one of the people Emily was getting information for as I couldn't attend Rolex this year - thanks Emily! It's common for we poorly paid writers and photographers (and you thought it was glamourous and exciting) to pool our resources and track down information and leads. In that way, for instance, a vet clinic doesn't receive ten phone calls on the same subject - they get just one from that group.

As far as whether it is proper to call a clinic (or vet, rider, owner, etc.) about an incident such as this - well, all I can say is if you're on a deadline you have to sometimes dig a little deeper than what you've been told by 'official' sources. And, having worked both sides of this issue (as a journalist and media center staff person) it is not one of my favorite things to do....but when you have an editor or audience wanting the facts you have to get them what you can. Of course, situations such as this must be handled in a gentle and sensitive way.

I've had to report on rider and horse injuries and deaths and it is a dreadful thing. I still have nightmares about Boucane at Rolex and Barnum at Fair Hill. But, this is a public international sport and as such people deserve to know as many pertinent facts as possible. People don't need to know everything, but they should be able to obtain the basic facts.

I hope this helps explain why Emily did what she did.

Hallie McEvoy
McEvoy Media Services
Racing Dreams, LLC
"Those who dare - win" RAF slogan

Shrapnel
Apr. 29, 2007, 10:05 PM
This thread was created to keep people informed of his condition. If people would like to pass judgement on the rider, please start your own thread. I for one would simply like to say I am thinking about Le Samurai and Amy and hoping for the best.


Strongly Agreed!

Tuckertoo
Apr. 29, 2007, 10:20 PM
Jingling like mad for Amy and Le Samurai. I can't imagine how hard this must be on all involved:cry: , and I'm offering up hugs for them.

ivy62
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:00 PM
I was standing watching the final fence when we saw what looked ike a bad step....having no clue what really happened he just all of a sudden was off then she took the last jump. We were a bit confused at why she continued but I trust her judgement but that doesn't mean we all have to agree....I wish them the best and we are jingling for them....any REAL diagnosis yet?

CookiePony
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:09 PM
Today David O'C announced that Amy was not at the stadium to accept her honors for the WEG because she was with Le Samurai, and that they were in his prayers.

They certainly are in mine, and at this point it makes no difference about whether she should or should not have pulled up-- what has happened, has happened. The fact is that the horse is badly injured and undoubtedly Amy is just heartsick over it. She and all of Le Samurai's team have my support, understanding, and sympathy.

claire
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:32 PM
Statement From Amy Tryon
4 . 29 . 2007

Statement From Amy Tryon
April 29, 2007

“Le Samurai is resting comfortably at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the horse’s injury he sustained yesterday but can not comment pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me and we share a deep bond that is beyond just competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, he will always be my partner. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.”

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:36 PM
Today David O'C announced that Amy was not at the stadium to accept her honors for the WEG because she was with Le Samurai, and that they were in his prayers.

They certainly are in mine, and at this point it makes no difference about whether she should or should not have pulled up-- what has happened, has happened. The fact is that the horse is badly injured and undoubtedly Amy is just heartsick over it. She and all of Le Samurai's team have my support, understanding, and sympathy.


Well said.

claire
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:41 PM
Do you take that to mean Le Samurai will be retired due to his injury?
What a sad and difficult situation for all involved :(

CarrieK
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:43 PM
Thanks, Claire, for posting that statement.

Row Wisco, Row!
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:45 PM
I am thinking nothing but wonderful thoughts for Amy & Sparky. :)

Anyone who's met her would testify that her horses mean the world to her. And not as a device toward success. She adores them all for exactly who they are and isn't afraid to allow a certain degree of, personal expression, shall we call it :D

It was unbelievable to think this was the same horse many of us saw careening around like a maniac at Rolex a year or two ago. *Please see disclaimer!

It was awesome to see the partnership Amy has built with that horse. I pray that she gets a chance to run him again. She's well known for riding difficult/strong/unorthodox horses no one else would (or could) ride nearly as well as she does. It was amazing to see her with loops in her reins kicking and galloping between fences and then making barely noticable adjustments to set up.

I think the last thing nearly any rider would want to do is let go when riding a potential ticking time bomb, but she did and look at the amazing result. I also remember a thread awhile ago about martingales and somebody said this horse needed one so badly at a past Rolex. Amy got your memo...:winkgrin:

Get well soon Sparky!

**DISCLAIMER!:
I mean absolutely NO, NONE, NIL, NADA single negative thing about this horse's past rider. She was extremely successful with him, and put an amazing foundation on him. Without it he wouldn't have seen his success with her, and he wouldn't have blossomed with Amy as he did. Some pairings just work better than others. That said, great job Robyn! :)

EventingRed
Apr. 29, 2007, 11:45 PM
This is not the place for the "if she" and "what ifs", make a different thread to discuss that aspect of it. Amy probably already feels bad enough. She is an amazing horsewoman, and from my knowledge, would never do anything that would cause her horse pain. Sparky is a cool horse, I really hope he recovers well.

Mariequi
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:09 AM
Thanks, Fuzzy. I was working in the final 'loop' and was standing at the crossing area by the entrance to the vet box. I watched the ride from the ducks to the final jump. I won't comment about the ride, but want to say that I was dismayed by the people swarming towards those ropes as quickly as we tried to get them off of them. And some coming back again. The crowd control, vets/ambulance/Costello team were remarkably quick to respond.

There was a horse that got a lot of fluids - I won't say who - and was watched for quite a while - that horse completed showjumping and looked great - so happy story there.

NeverTime
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:33 AM
So, while we're carefully not placing blame for what happened, Amy's statement indicates the FEI *is* reviewing it. Perhaps our industrious equine journalist friends can let us know what aspect of this accident the FEI is looking into? (ie, is the federation investigating Amy's decision, the condition of the course, the response of the vet?) I'm glad the FEI is getting involved, in whatever aspect.
I have a ton of respect for Amy, her riding, her work ethic and her sheer talent, and I can only imagine how this must be tearing her up. Especially watching on the video and seeing how lovely they looked up until that moment.
On a somewhat unrelated note, though, as I read all these posts telling people critical of her decision to keep going, I have to speculate, that had this exact same thing happened, but with Darren up instead of Amy, this thread would be 10 pages long and the torches and pitchforks would already be out. Just guessing, remembering the fallout from Windfall's Rolex round last year -- and that horse *didn't* suffer a presumably career-ending injury.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:37 AM
I just got the download working and saw the lameness with Le Samurai - that horse was lame for QUITE some time. Even the announcer said that she was going to have to pull up. My husband watched and he said it made him sick to his stomach and that he thought the sport should be banned (and he comes and helps me at all my events - my biggest fan). It's stuff like this that gets the animal rights people all stirred up.... do you want the sport to disappear? I hope Denny gets this information for his safety article. This is stuff we can prevent. And why is the FEI investigating it, anyway .....?

deserteventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:50 AM
I HAD respect for Amy up until today. She knew something was up with Sparky way before he went lame. If you watch it closely he is already struggeling at the next to last fence, taking a lot of not quite clear steps in his canter. But he was cantering on the right lead and it didnt show so well ( hence the few "good" steps after the last jump, he was on the right lead). She kept on pushing him. The minute he changed his lead that ligament that had been bothering him snapped. She should NEVER have continued, It doesnt matter how bad or good it feels, your horse is off, you pull up. Believe me it didnt feel any better than it looked ( been there), there is no excuse for her continuing and I truely hope she gets a red card for this. She will forever question her desicion and that will be her punishment for letting this horse break down. Hopefully Sparky will be able to live a rewarding life from now on, but he wont be back at upper levels for sure.

EventingRed
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:01 AM
Do we not have moderators on the BB? This thread is disgusting.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:01 AM
Thank god someone else sees the truth (Deserteventer). You don't get to the 4 star level, and definately not the Olympics being unable to tell when your horse feels lame. That horse was trotting, cantering, and pacing all at the same time. Say what you want about horse racing, but at least those jockeys pull up .... I can't watch the rest of the video that was so upsetting.

This thread is disgusting??? That "accident" was disgusting.

shea'smom
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:09 AM
Amy crossed the finish line, so why was she not listed in the placings after xc? Even though she withdrew immediately, normally she would have still be listed as finishing that phase in 2nd, right?
On the score board at the event, she was shown as withdrawn, as if she did not finish.
Anybody who has been riding and competing as long as Amy has made a decision that they regret, I feel for her and the horse.

EventingRed
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:11 AM
Don't get me wrong, the accident is not my first choice either. However, constant quarterbacking does absolutly nothing.

Jingles to Amy and Sparky.

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:15 AM
It makes people aware of other points of view, and information is a good thing.

Carol Ames
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:18 AM
It would not have been the first time control has radioed to stop horse # xyz,:no: do we need someone, the vet( ?) in control central, :confused: to make that decision and have the jump judge wave their red flag?:(

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:22 AM
It's real basic: The four star rider should know better and just pull up. It's ultimately the rider's resposibility to the horse - a jump judge shouldn't have to tell you to pull up - you should already be pulling up because you know you owe it to the horse to protect him, as he protects you jumping over the fences.

deserteventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:30 AM
Fergie is right, I can see people not pulling up at lower levels, since often they dont have the ability to feel, but at FEI level, no one should have to tell you to pull up. I wish someone would have stopped her, but its to late now. I just get furious when i see these things. Our sport is already getting some seriously bad reps out there for cruelty to animals etc, and it is us...the riders responsibility to show the world, that what we do is fair and with the utmost respect to the horse. Amy showed the people that is against our sport that they are right, and THAT is bad for our sport.
Btw..the scoreboard is a bit messed up, it will show the final results correctly at one point. Several people are listed as eliminated when they actually retired.

shea'smom
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:31 AM
Equiseach has a good article about the event, which states in part that Amy was DQ'd even though she elected to withdraw. Also, Mark Phillips has a statement on there, defending Amy's decision. I won't try to paraphrase, go read it. Good info.
Again, it is a hard call in that situation and I wish the horse the best. Poor boy, having so much fun and then :(

beeblebrox
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:36 AM
"EventingRed
Do we not have moderators on the BB? This thread is disgusting."


What is disgusting is people thinking other people opinions are not ok to be shared. Amy is a special rider but no different than anyone else when it comes to a public forum. THIS was a terrible thing to happen to any rider weather it happened at BN or **** level.

What I find disgusting is saying you can not talk about your theories or what was seen by those there and on the broadcast. YOU PEOPLE can not moderate a thread about a public event with a public figure just because you may not agree. I have not read bashing of AMY nor have I bashed her so not sure why people can not have a discussion and suggesting by one that we should get the moderators has to be the most kindergarden thing said so far on this whole thread, we are adults here and NOBODY owns a thread nor can they manipulate it to their liking.

I hope the horse is able to live out his years in some comfort and that Amy continues in her brilliant career. This is NOT the first break down or the last nor is it the first to be discussed either.

PiedPiper
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:06 AM
Oh for Christ sake, I never said that opinions shouldn't be said. But maybe just MAYBE we can wait a few days until the dust has settled and the facts are gathered BEFORE we are judge, jury and executioner.

I couldn't begin to surmise whether Amy is at fault for anything and if she is to what extent. I do have a baseline faith in all riders that they do consider their horses' wellbeing until it is disproven. I thinkk it is premature to do it at this point.

No one is saying that no one should say anything against Amy or other ULR. What people are saying is it might be too early to do so at this point. Everyone knows, good and bad, that things feel differently than they look when riding and quite possibly Amy didn't realize how bad things were.

Patience people, let's have some patience.

annikak
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:15 AM
Before, many horses have come to sad ending in our sport. We just did not see every second.

This one in particular is different for many reasons- A) it was at Rolex, B) it was on the jumbotron, and everyone could see it, and C), if you weren't there, you could go to U-Tube and play it over and over and over again to look at each step and wonder and quess what happened.

Again, having never ridden above a *, I don't know what I might have done.

I can bet that Amy, knowing what she knows now, and possably joining the masses looking at the clip, would have pulled up right away. I can bet she has re-lived that moment over and over again in her mind, and if she has slept at all, in her dreams.

Jingles to Amy and to her lovely horse. The rest of the ride was amazing and an education. She is a lovely rider- I was looking closely at her as I had heard abt how soft she was and indeed she is.

sspry
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:18 AM
There is a short statement from Amy on the Rolex site.

magnolia73
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:24 AM
THIS is why we need factual, straightforward reports of ALL accidents in which a horse either dies or comes up lame and is retired. There should be set in place a panel of experts to review that tape and interview the rider - top riders, vets, course designers - to see EXACTLY what went wrong, in their expert opinions, release it to the public and allow us to learn from it.

None of us know what the rider felt under her. NOT one of us. Could she have been so mentally fatigued that it did not register that something was wrong? Did she just think the horse stung himself and was fine? Did she try to pull up to no avail? That is why, painful as it may be, there needs to be an official inquiry made and lessons learned.

The safety and health of the horses is the sport's main responsibility in my opinion. We need to take serious and educated action to see what went wrong when horses at this level are injured - especially as it seems to occur with some frequency. The rhetoric about how bad the rider must feel or that it's a part of the sport or that what happened is nobody's business should not stand in the way of studying these events with hopes of preventing similar future circumstances.

I hope that the horse is able to at least be retired to a life at pasture and to romp and play, and I hope that Amy Tryon continues to have success in the sport and is able to learn something of use from her misfortune.

ShowMeTheGlory
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:36 AM
Well, I just watched the video and am disgusted by what I just watched. I think that was worse than any racing breakdown I have ever seen. There is NO way she did not feel that. Even my husband who knows NOTHING about horses watched it and could not believe she kept riding. I love eventing, but this just turned me off. There is no way she did not know there was something wrong, and we will never know the truth, only what she says happened. I'm sorry, this has my blood boiling. Everybody thinks just because she is a BNR that her decision must have been the best, and that she will beat herself up for this. Bull, for all we know, she knew what happened and just wanted to finish.

monstrpony
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:37 AM
I just saw the video. This is my opinion.

You don't get to the **** level by wimping out every time your horse takes a funny step. The horse made a remarkable recovery fromt the bad step, given how bad we now know it was, and clearly has terrific heart. She made the wrong call this time, but I think I can understand her thought process (insofar as you can "read" that from the video; "understand" does not mean "agree with"). She will have learned a very painful lesson from this.

My sympathies to all involved.

annikak
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:37 AM
THIS is why we need factual, straightforward reports of ALL accidents in which a horse either dies or comes up lame and is retired. There should be set in place a panel of experts to review that tape and interview the rider - top riders, vets, course designers - to see EXACTLY what went wrong, in their expert opinions, release it to the public and allow us to learn from it.


Indeed the powers that be need to do their jobs.


The safety and health of the horses is the sport's main responsibility in my opinion. We need to take serious and educated action to see what went wrong when horses at this level are injured - especially as it seems to occur with some frequency. The rhetoric about how bad the rider must feel or that it's a part of the sport or that what happened is nobody's business should not stand in the way of studying these events with hopes of preventing similar future circumstances.


I do not consider it "rhetoric", but rather compassion.

I do not think anyone here has implied that there should not be an investigation- but to "cast stones" before an official word has been released seems unfair. We all have opinions, that's great- however its more then sad and as I see it, that should be the focus.

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:40 AM
Do we not have moderators on the BB? This thread is disgusting.

Here is the answer to your question:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=94357

Lori B
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:42 AM
Thank you, beeblebrox. Were we on the horse? No. Did many of the folks offering their observations see the broadcast? Yes. Questioning if the rider made the best decision possible is not the same as trashing someone. Examining an incident and gathering information is how we all learn.

I used to ride with an ULR whose horse tore up a tendon (I think that was the injury, something bad but not life threatening) while on an XC course. She felt it happen several fences from the end of the course, but could not pull him up. He was an experienced horse, and seemed to want to finish.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:47 AM
I have never in all the years I've been on this board seen such a sanctimonious and vicious diatribe. I hope many of you are condemned to live such boring lives that you never have to make a major decision in less than 10 second.

Lori B
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:54 AM
Why is questioning a diatribe? I keep asking this, and no one answers, except to complain that opinions are being offered at all. No one wishes the rider or horse ill.

One Star
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:57 AM
"Amy said she felt the horse take a bad step at the top of the hill. Then he started to get a bit better and then he locked onto the fence in front of him. At that time, when you're traveling at 25 mph, it happens in a matter of seconds. She felt it was safer to try to jump the fence than to try and pull up."

"If you have got an injury, it takes time to pull up so you don't make the situation worse. When Barbaro had his injury, he went a long way before he was pulled up. Secondly, she didn't know at the time what the injury was -- or if it was an injury. In that moment, you don't know whether a bandage or boot has slipped. You don't have the advantage of a video. All you know is what you're feeling in your hands and with the horse underneath you.

"Amy is one of the most sympathetic of all riders and her horses come first of everything in her life. She would never knowingly do something cruel or unkind or harmful to any of her horses. I feel very sorry for her, because if this had happened three fences earlier, it's in her words, a 'no brainer.' If it happens at the finish, you don't have the luxury of going for a bit to see how and when you can pull up."

Mark recalled that when he was riding Columbus at Burghley in 1974, the horse slipped a tendon off his hock at the next-to-last fence, and he went on to jump the last.

"A lot of riders have been in that position," he pointed out.

"In a moment of uncertainty so close to the finish, most riders would do what Amy did. They don't have the advantage of hindsight and video."

claire
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:08 AM
I just posted the Equisearch link on another thread.
Besides the Mark Phillips take (quoted above),the article quotes Amy's husband and then mentions the FEI investigation.

http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/rolex07final_042907/

What a terrible situation for all involved.

JenJ
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:52 AM
Watching it online live was terrible. My feelings ranged from sympathy for Amy because I don't believe for a second she was aware of the severity of the situation, to the other extreme of, how could she have been so (pick your expression) to let that horse take the last fence.
They showed a 2 second clip of her in the trailer with the horse awaiting transport and she just looked sick. I doubt there is anything that people, who blame her for what clearly in hindsight was a bad judgment call, can say that can make her feel any worse than she already does.

I expect to get flamed for the next sentence, but, what if it had been Teddy? Every one of us was routing for that amazing little guy, cheering him and Karen on over every fence. If he had been hurt, I fully expect there would have been some people attacking Karen for asking too much of a pony - even a superstar pony - over a 4* course.

Tiki
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:02 AM
This is a very unusual situation where we have an 'instant replay' so to speak, and a better view than actually being there. I wasn't there, however seeing the video I was probably closer to what happened than if I had actually been there. The horse bobbed and stumbled by the first big tree, right at the beginning of the video. He did canter on, however he looked really, really labored. It all happened way before the turn to the last fence. How could he have been 'locked on' to the last fence. He looked very labored, tired and stumbled several times - along with walking/trotting/cantering/changing leads all at the same time. He looked so labored I can't imagine he would have refused to pull up.

LisaB
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:09 AM
Gawd! What an awful situation!
I watched the video. I've seen a few incidents like this. Horse takes a bad step, whether it was at competition or schooling. I'll tell ya, the rider KNEW and pulled up as fast and as safe as possible. I looked at the video of Barbaro and the jockey KNEW and tried to pull him up as safely as possible. I'm sorry but waaay bad judgement call. That was too long of lame steps to press him on.
Now, I haven't been in that situation. So I can't say what I would have done. I'm trying not to pass judgment but it's really hard not to after seeing the video. I mean really hard ...
Jingles for Le Samurai. If he wants to be a lawn ornament, he can come over to my house anytime.

Muck r us
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:21 AM
Statement from Amy Tryon (http://www.rk3de.com/news_view.php?id=36)

tle
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:38 AM
Haven't seen the video. Feel badly for Amy. Am very thankful it wasn't worse -- as I was told from an official who delves into various vet studies, horses with hind end injuries stop at fences... horses with front end injuries FALL at fences. No one here NEEDS to MMQ -- the FEI will be doing that for us as they have Amy DQ'd... there will obviously based on that and her statement be an investigation. If we're going to BBQ/MMQ someone... let's all wait to see what the details come from the FEI's investigation and work them over. ;)

Row Wisco, Row!
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:17 PM
I expect to get flamed for the next sentence, but, what if it had been Teddy? Every one of us was routing for that amazing little guy, cheering him and Karen on over every fence. If he had been hurt, I fully expect there would have been some people attacking Karen for asking too much of a pony - even a superstar pony - over a 4* course.

Agreed.

Someone mentioned several pages ago that this would have been even more out of control and harsh if it had happened to Darren.

I think the situation is further muddied by the fact that that she was in 1st place and there are people who attribute the whole thing to her wanting to win. I expect the tune would be a tad bit different if she had been in, say, 15th place at the time. That said, it is still extremely sad that this happened.

Thinking good thoughts for Amy & Sparky :)

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:21 PM
Oh for crying out loud, is there NO update on his condition? I have searched everywhere on the net and can't find a word!

Maybe it is private business, maybe it is under FEI investigation - but I would really, really, really like word of his condition! I would be happy with a simple "resting comfortably".

Also the leader board now shows them as "disqualified". What does that mean?

Silence always scares the crap out of me.

SCFarm

moonriverfarm
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:21 PM
Regardless of why she did not notice he was lame, here again the welfare of the horse was put behind the dream of the rider. The horse always pays the dearest price.

Loves to ride
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:25 PM
I've read through this thread to find out, avoiding anything related to comments on how the sad situation was handled so admittedly, I may have missed it.

What was the diagnosis for Le Samurai? I think I read suspensory, but not sure?

Thanks...

And for Amy, her family, Le Samurai and all his family (owners, caretakers, etc.) and friends, I'm sending alot of jingles from Massachusetts! No matter how it happened, there's still a big-hearted 4* horse that needs everyone pulling for his recovery and comfort.

kcooper
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:29 PM
Since there is no official report on his condition there is NO WAY to say that he is any worse off because she didn't stop. And he probably wasn't feeling any actual pain due to adrenaline.
When I watched it live, I said "Oh, my god, he just broke his leg." But then they kept going and I said "Wait, maybe he just hit himself, Oh, no he looks OK, now he is moving better." And then they jumped the fence and he looked lame again. I think that it is highly likely that Amy had a very similar reaction.
I have a friend whose horse fell at the water at Bromont a few years ago. She got dunked, too. She got up, someone gave her a leg up and they finished the course by jumping the last 2-3 fences. The horse had sustained a broken knee. She didn't know her horse actually fell because she was under water, but the horse felt decent when she got back on. Adrenaline is amazing stuff.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:34 PM
Why is questioning a diatribe? I keep asking this, and no one answers, except to complain that opinions are being offered at all.
I'll answer.

Because less than 24 hours after the event, before any inquiry is completed, before the extent of the injury to the horse is even known, before a young woman has had a chance to grieve her devastating lost and her own mistake IS TOO SOON for a bunch of less talented, less experienced, less informed strangers with the sole advantage of 20/20 hindsight and instant replay to question someone else's judgement in the heat of the moment. The FEI will do what they need to do, and the sport will respond how it needs to respond and it will all happen without any aid whatsoever of the uninformed opinions on this board.

If you want to second guess her after the facts are in, after knowledgable people have spoken, after we know the extent of the injuries, after we have a response from the FEI--when you actually have real information to question--then have at it. But right now, today, it is nothing more than elbowing in on some else's tragedy.


No one wishes the rider or horse ill.
How could you not beleive that there are many comments here that would make the rider ill and add to her grief? If you don't wish her ill then don't say and imply things that would hurt her.

claire
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:38 PM
I've read through this thread to find out, avoiding anything related to comments on how the sad situation was handled so admittedly, I may have missed it.
What was the diagnosis for Le Samurai?

Ltr, Someone gave the link (I copied) Amy Tryon's statement from the Rolex site.

Statement From Amy Tryon
4 . 29 . 2007

Statement From Amy Tryon
April 29, 2007

“Le Samurai is resting comfortably at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the horse’s injury he sustained yesterday but can not comment pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me and we share a deep bond that is beyond just competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, he will always be my partner. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.”

A couple things from her statement:
-There appears to be a FEI review in progress (so perhaps why the lack of information)

-Le Samuria seems to be "comfortable" and getting the best care.

-Amy notes that she will no longer be competing Le Samuria. So either the injury is career ending and/or she lost the ride on Le Samuria.

mademoiselle
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:40 PM
I feel really bad for her, it must be one of the worst positions to be in. I don't even want to imagine ...

On the other hand, I don't understand why she didn't try to slow him down to a trot right after the couple of funny steps he took. She would have known if was really lame, or if he had pulled a shoe or if he was OK.

If in fact, he wouldn't have been injured, she would have lost the 1st place but would still have been in the top 10 !
I don't question the fact that she loves her horses, I don't question the fact that till you have been in her shoes you can't know for sure what you would do but I still wonder what went thru her head at that moment.


We're 'lucky' that injured like he was, Le Samourai didn't crash into the last fence, or cloppased or broke his other leg or something. It's a miracle he managed to jump that last fence clean. It shows a huge heart !!!

I guess, I feel I will never have enough guts to make it to the upper level. In a sitatuation like this, the whimppy side of me would show up! That's the diffrence between winners and loosers (I'm the last category, and that's OK ;-)

I hope they can make him cormfortable enough to have a good retirement. I don't blame her. I really think that she must feel horrible today and that she going to need a lot of support.

mbdobbs
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:41 PM
Or is it here here! I just started reading this thread, only watching results over the weekend. But I think this has put it PERFECTLY! Thank you for writing this, monster pony.

Melissa




I just saw the video. This is my opinion.

You don't get to the **** level by wimping out every time your horse takes a funny step. The horse made a remarkable recovery fromt the bad step, given how bad we now know it was, and clearly has terrific heart. She made the wrong call this time, but I think I can understand her thought process (insofar as you can "read" that from the video; "understand" does not mean "agree with"). She will have learned a very painful lesson from this.

My sympathies to all involved.

beeblebrox
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:44 PM
I think the million dollar question for some in reading this board at 2 others may very well be tied SADLY and MAYBE very WRONGLY to her place in the event.

Had she not been in first place or in the top few would this story have the power it has now? Some (I do not agree with this) seem to think she pushed the horse after the bad step as she was in the top of the contest but any rider knows even if you finish the jumping on XC the horse still has to come back to jog and compete the next day.

I BELIVE she felt it but seeing (on video or being in crowd) something and feeling something can be TWO very different things. Has anyone here ever been on a baby or other horse who has stung himself on a jump and come up 3 legged for a couple steps??? I have and you freak and then they go on when they realize they are ok. I am not sure how many on this board has ridden a four star course (I have not) but know how heavy a tired horse is and how drained a rider can feel at the end and that course is a monster, what you feel in a split second is so subjective to so many factors.

The video is awful and shows two tired athletes and makes you cringe to be sure.

I do not believe a rider of Amy's caliber would want to damage a horse privately or publicly. The horse was a fairly new six figure purchase and she was bonded to him. WHAT I do know is the mob mentality that follows people in the lime-light (celebrity, singers, actors and top athletes) The public loves to put them up on high and well at times over and over again likes to watch or help them fall from grace. Look no further than baseball, movie stars and political folks to see how we build em' up and tear them down.... :-(

As for being able to discuss opinion, I appreciate boards where people can come together and talk about this and other "hot button" topics.

As a californian I have seen the horse run a lot and wow
Loads of horse and loads of talent and I give props to both Robyn and Amy for their riding of this special horse and hope he comes out of this to live a good life. I also drop my head for all the other unfortunate riders who have had horses break down under them, nothing can be more distressing than the years, hours of care and work that goes into a horse, dreams and love to have one shatter under you... Then to have it happen in front of NBC and 2,000 people... I could not take it and not having the talent level to ride at that level is one thing but even if I did it would be hard for me to ride under the public scrutiny that follows these people (all of them, most of the top riders have had some damage control!)

rileyt
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:47 PM
My reaction is the same as kcooper's.

I seriously doubt someone of Amy's skill "didn't notice" he was lame... but watching it on the video it looked to me like he went very lame/awkward for a few strides... then seemed to recover momentarily before the fence... then afterwards was very lame again.

God, I've had my horse hit fences and have a few very awkward strides afterward... You can't pull up to a dead stop anyway (and wouldn't want to), so when it feels like your horse is recovering from a stinger... I've always continued on.

You all are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I think I understand exactly how this happened... and I don't think any less of Amy because of it.


Best of luck to Le Samurai... I hope he is OK.

CookiePony
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:52 PM
[It] IS TOO SOON for a bunch of less talented, less experienced, less informed strangers with the sole advantage of 20/20 hindsight and instant replay to question someone else's judgement in the heat of the moment.
--snip--
If you want to second guess her after the facts are in, after knowledgable people have spoken, after we know the extent of the injuries, after we have a response from the FEI--when you actually have real information to question--then have at it. But right now, today, it is nothing more than elbowing in on some else's tragedy.



Good points subk. There are thousands of people who have watched the incident or the video... and ONE person who was on the back of that horse. How on earth can we know what that person thought and felt at this point???? Or presume to know what she SHOULD have thought and felt???? :confused:

I am disappointed in the lack of support and blaming from some of my fellow eventers on this board. To quote Chocomare on the video thread, "Let's not Shoot Our Own Wounded."

tle
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
subk... GREAT response!!!

As for what would happen if it had been someone else... I dunno. No one does. But if this much trouble is started by the actions at an event by someone who is generally thought of as "nice and caring"... yeah, I can imaging the hubbub raised if it had been someone with not such a great reputation (not naming names).

cyberbay
Apr. 30, 2007, 12:57 PM
Yes, let's get the facts about those last jumps on course, let's let emotions not carry the day, and let's NOT, above all, get judging and jurying about this incident. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to go after someone and lynch them. Not anyone ever, and esp. not anyone who has a reputation as an excellent horsewoman all along. A reasoned discussion, yes, an even heated one, OK, but remember lynching someone means that someone can lynch you. Would you like that?

Discussion is good, having an opinion is good, but attacking someone in an irrational venting of emotions is bad. If you really want to do some good, take that energy and put it toward helping formulate regulations that might stop a repeat of this situation.

Ellie K
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:11 PM
Also the leader board now shows them as "disqualified". What does that mean?Based on what was reported by Equisearch (assuming it is factual--and the DQ and Amy's statement suggest such), the only explanation is that the officials ruled her DQ'ed on the basis of what occurred, i.e., a violation of the rules, which is within their authority, pending tribunal resolution. So it appears to have been the opinion of the officials that a violation of art. 143.1.5 did occur. Their decision is not binding; the FEI tribunal will decide and she is allowed due process.

*Very important to note* re: the need to NOT villify Amy here (regardless of the 'official' outcome), is that "abuse" is a terribly strong word. But it doesn't *only* mean intentional acts. There is absolutely nothing in the regulation that requires conscious intent for an act of "abuse" to occur. A "mistake" or bad judgment can indeed be ruled to constitute "abuse". That doesn't mean that someone intentionally, consciously put their will to win over their horse's welfare. It can mean that they just made the wrong decision, or they overreacted in the heat of the moment (e.g., excessive spur/whip leaving marks). And the FEI judicial committee's tendency is to acknowledge this in terms of sanctions. But they do also tend to err on the side of "if it's there, it's there" (as with doping), and the broadness of the rule reflects this. Then they tend to go overboard to assert in their ruling that there was no indication that the rider intentionally harmed their horse, going easy on sanctions unless there was clear deliberate intent. And the fact that it's a 3day and he had to jog sound the next day also will help her situation quite a lot, as will her excellent reputation and record of horsemanship.

Also it should be noted that the definition of what is or is not "abuse" varies depending on which governing org sanctioned the event, which shows just how arbitrary it can be (e.g., poling (rapping) of any kind, at any time, is "abuse" per the FEI. But it's only abuse per USEF if you do it excessively and/or don't use a bamboo pole.)

SR Rider
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:24 PM
Amy is one of my favorite riders and will continue to be.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:33 PM
NOBODY (that I'm aware of) is accusing Amy Tryon of anything more than perhaps a momentary bit of bad judgment. NOBODY is accusing her of intentionally wanting to hurt the horse or for being coldly calculating and trying to salvage a 4* win or anything like that. And although emotions are running high here, I can't see how this is different than the discussions that take place with any other sort of tragedy. People see and judge things very differently depending on "where they're coming from".

Personally my feelings are VERY mixed, and I daresay only a very limited number of people are failing to see both sides of this issue. :no: But asking people to NOT speculate, to NOT care, to NOT react is futile.

CookiePony
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:34 PM
Personally my feelings are VERY mixed, and I daresay only a very limited number of people are failing to see both sides of this issue. :no: But asking people to NOT speculate, to NOT care, to NOT react is futile.

You know, you're right DW. We are all merely human at this moment.

tle
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:55 PM
You know, you're right DW. We are all merely human at this moment.

But it seems ironic that people (NOT pointing at DW or Cookie directly) are ok with the MMQs wanting to speculate and such because "we are all merely human"... yet won't cut the rider the same courtesy.

At least that's what so much seems to be happening at the moment. Again... not pointing any direct fingers... just found the comment ironic.

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:57 PM
I found the relevant section in the FEI rules:




Article 143 - ABUSE OF HORSES

1. No person may abuse a horse during an event or at any other time.
“Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain

General Regulations, 36 21st edition, revision effective 1 June 2006

or unnecessary discomfort to a horse, including without limitation any of the
following:
1.1. To whip or beat a horse excessively;
1.2. To subject a horse to any kind of electric shock device;
1.3. To use spurs excessively or persistently;
1.4. To jab the horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;
1.5. To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured horse;
1.6. To "rap" a horse.
1.7. To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a horse;
1.8. To leave a horse without adequate food, drink or exercise;
1.9. To use any device or equipment which cause excessive pain to the
horse upon knocking down an obstacle.
2. Any person witnessing an Abuse must report it in the form of a protest
(Art 167) without delay. If an Abuse is witnessed during an event, it should
be reported as a protest (Art 167) to an Official. If the Abuse is witnessed at
any other time it should be reported as a protest (Art 167) to the Secretary
General for referral to the Judicial Committee.


The one highlighted is the one Ellie K cites.

Does this mean that someone (official or not) filed a 167 protest? Did the ground jury actually meet and DQ Amy?

According to Horse and Hound:
America's Amy Tryon was disqualified by officials and has been referred to the FEI for "alleged abuse" after failing to pull up her horse when he went lame some 100m or so before the last fence.

I really, really wish that there was more information available - most specifically on Le Samurai's condition this morning (or even as of yesterday) AND about the official status of this incident. I would have hoped by now that "folks in charge" know that it is much better to disclose what is happening as it unfolds. But not doing so they allow speculation to run rampant.

No matter what, the footage is out there and it looks terrible. The truth is unlikely to be worse than the perception at this point.

I will continue to jingle for Sparkie, and also for Amy, his owners and his whole team. I continue to hope for the best possible outcome and, hopefully, some truely good lessons learned!

Ellie, you are correct - I clearly remember the German showjumper (who's name is escaping me at the moment) DQed for his horse's a positive drug test. Yes, they sanctioned him - but also made it vey clear that they thought it was unintentional and did not effect the performance of his horse.

SCFarm

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:58 PM
What is an MMQ, please?

Speaking (again) for myself, I have very mixed feelings. Wouldn't presume to put myself in the rider's shoes, yet was horrified at what I saw. I don't think there's a soul out there who doesn't think/hope/wish that he/she would "do the right thing" in that situation but that, too, is simply speculation.

People, this is a bulletin board where we are translating our thoughts into sentences and paragraphs. This is a very emotional issue that simply CANNOT be discussed dispassionately and without what would very likely be a lot of raised voices and high drama were we all sitting around in the stabling area somewhere.

I have heard VERY, VERY few (if ANY) people here unequivocally saying that what Amy did was cruel, calculated, evil, etc. I've also heard very, very few (if ANY) people say that she absolutely did the right thing. Almost everyone (to my view) sees both sides of the issue and are simply reacting the way human beings do. Some are judgmental, some are more sympathetic to the rider...I can very definitely "feel" both ways, so how can either human reaction be "wrong"?

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 01:59 PM
Eek! Sorry for all the bold print above - copying from Acrobat produces funkier stuff than I know how to edit out!

Sorry! :o

SCFarm

tommygirl
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:00 PM
that a BB and the media can do to a sport and it's supporters. Sometimes I wish the internet was never made public... on the other hand, we are all more educated (?) than we were, right? I do see a high level of inconsiderate posts and they seem to be chipping away at the over all view of our sport. Imagine the snowball effect that happens with false or over dramatized information. Maybe we should all take a step back, realize that we all make mistakes and bad things happen no matter how much we think we can control our lives or others or the lives of our horses.

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:03 PM
What is additionally disturbing to me is how fast many of you are coming to the defense of the HUMAN when you spew on and on in other posts about how much you LOVE the horses.....
well, here's your chance to stick up for them.

Ellie K
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:04 PM
just to clarify my meaning as I don't know if DW was referencing my post, I was elaborating on the definition of abuse in light of the fact that when people hear that a charge of alleged abuse has occurred and the FEI is investigating such and may end up ruling that such occurred, it ends up sounding often a lot worse than it is...i.e., just because someone is investigated for "abuse" or even found guilty of it doesn't mean that there was disregard for the horse's welfare. It just may mean (and usually does mean) that an act occurred which ended up compromising the horse's welfare. It can be quite inadvertent, and still be ruled as abuse (there aren't multiple 'categories', it's all lumped together in one definition).

I just didn't want people to just run with the 'sensational' aspect of an abuse inquiry and form a harsh opinion about it without the full context of what that actually means in most cases.

xtwistx
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:05 PM
Not wishing to be the bearer of bad news but I believe that Le Samurai has been PTS. I don't think it has been officially released though.

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:06 PM
Ellie, I wasn't responding to your posts at all. You've striven to post factual definitions from the perspective of the FEI. One of the few "factual" posts on the whole thread, really. :)

canyonoak
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:13 PM
Yes, this 'formal inquiry into alleged abuse' has to be good for the sport.

The same sport that the FEI railroaded into the vaunted 'short format'.

The same sport that the Asian Games just tried to kick out of the Asian version of the Olympics.

The same sport that has been on the hot-list of sports-IOC-could -do-without.

Kick on, everyone. Easy when the target is down.

Along with the beauty of the world pre-Internet-- hardly anyone so contemptuously challenged a respected horseman's decision as to what to do in such a situation.

I absolutely DESPISE myself for now dragging Barbaro in here--but go back, all of you who like to watch such videos, and look how far Prado had to go to stop the horse.
Is that what you are suggesting Amy Tryon should have done? You think that would have HELPED in this situation????

Well, just keep handing the sport over to the FEI. Heaven knows, they already have the long knives out, not too much until everything is fork-tender.

CookiePony
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:13 PM
But it seems ironic that people (NOT pointing at DW or Cookie directly) are ok with the MMQs wanting to speculate and such because "we are all merely human"... yet won't cut the rider the same courtesy.

At least that's what so much seems to be happening at the moment. Again... not pointing any direct fingers... just found the comment ironic.

Yeah, I can see your point-- I guess my point is that lots of people are upset about what happened and it is human to vent anger at the most obvious target: Amy Tryon. I am not condoning the hurtful (in my opinion) things that people have said about Amy on this thread but I can understand why, in this emotional time and with the existence of such a vivid video, people would feel the need to say them. There is so much grief, shock, and anger. :cry:

And I stand by my opinion that it is unproductive to heap guilt on Amy. The most compassionate, mature thing to do is to be supportive in this awful moment and allow that none of us have any authority to place blame on her.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:14 PM
Not wishing to be the bearer of bad news but I believe that Le Samurai has been PTS. I don't think it has been officially released though.

Where did you hear this news? Reliable source?

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:15 PM
Not wishing to be the bearer of bad news but I believe that Le Samurai has been PTS. I don't think it has been officially released though.

Is anyone reading or are you too busy spewing!? DID you SEE THIS POST?? HERE IS THE REALITY.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:18 PM
If that is the truth and the horse is truly gone, then I don't think anyone has to be beating up Amy... she'll be doing plenty of that to herself.

Jingles to Le Samuri, or god speed...

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:18 PM
And I stand by my opinion that it is unproductive to heap guilt on Amy. The most compassionate, mature thing to do is to be supportive in this awful moment and allow that none of us have any authority to place blame on her.[/QUOTE]


I do NOT blame her for the injury...this happens BUT

I DO blame her for bad horsemanship in continuing to the finsih on an OBVIOUSLY lame and uncomfortable horse. It should have NEVER happened.

magnolia73
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:19 PM
I hope just a rumor.

Look, you can not have a sport where horses are injured or PTS on a fairly regular basis and expect people not to be upset. I don't know if it is worth standing up for a sport where horses seemingly take so much risk. I don't stand up for racing either.

xtwistx
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:19 PM
Yep, reliable source. The person who told me is an event rider at the same yard as Robyn Fisher, the horse's last owner. They got the news yesterday, but it hasn't been released.

CookiePony
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:19 PM
--I sure am glad to be deleting this post--

JER
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:21 PM
I sure hope the horse is ok.

Although I haven't ridden in a CCI**** or anything close, I have had the unfortunate experience of riding a horse that had a catastrophic injury while out hunting. It's disorienting and confusing and in the absence of any definitive signs (a loud crack, a la Ruffian), it takes a few strides to get your bearings. Things just don't make sense -- everything was fine up till now. The first few steps are inconsistent -- a trip, a recovery, a good step, another bobble -- and a person on the ground can often see it better than you can feel it.

As for Amy, I'd guess she'd prefer to have had a dumb rider fall at fence 5 because then she'd still have a healthy horse. She had a beautiful ride (and very generous to the horse) up to the injury and she must be devastated.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:21 PM
:( Jingles to all involved.

InVA
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:23 PM
Yep, reliable source. The person who told me is an event rider at the same yard as Robyn Fisher, the horse's last owner. They got the news yesterday, but it hasn't been released.

xtwistx,
.. please pass on good wishes to the horse's connections, past and present. They are our partners, and they give their all for us...

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:23 PM
May he rest in peace, and what a sad day for our eventing community. :(

Well considering he's here in the surgery barn, with a cast on chillin and was eating well this morning...i don't think he's gone

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:25 PM
DW you know how much I respect your opinion, but what is coming across to me is the seniment of "how could she have not known," "it was so obvious that she should have pulled him up" and those sentiments ARE judgemental--and by people with little information.


Not wishing to be the bearer of bad news but I believe that Le Samurai has been PTS. I don't think it has been officially released though.
I would like to suggest that since you don't want to be the beared of bad news--THEN DON'T BEAR IT! This is rumor mongering at it's worst whether it is true or not.

magnolia73
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:26 PM
Thank goodness. Give the boy a few carrots and a pat and let him know whole universe of people care a whole lot about him.

JenJ
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:28 PM
Well considering he's here in the surgery barn, with a cast on chillin and was eating well this morning...i don't think he's gone

I was reluctant to believe the post by xtwistx, first because it was a new poster whose motivation could be questioned given the height of emotions here, and also because i didnt think the information could have been kept confidential for a whole day.

SS, your post is a relief

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:28 PM
Thank goodness. Give the boy a few carrots and a pat and let him know whole universe of people care a whole lot about him.

I'm going to try to walk into the barn later to see him... I am truly a hunter rider so I don't know much about the eventing world..sorry guys :-)

I don't know if I can though

CookiePony
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:28 PM
Well considering he's here in the surgery barn, with a cast on chillin and was eating well this morning...i don't think he's gone

I sure am glad to be corrected in this case.

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:28 PM
For crying out loud! This is exactly why it is SO important to be up front and open with the public! There were 90,000 plus people who went to Rolex - what they don't think these people care????

Mostly we just want to know how the Le Samurai is doing - how hard is that? Even if there are decisions to be made, it doesn't change how he is doing at the moment.

This is the crap that really damages horse sports.

SCFarm

xtwistx
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:29 PM
I would like to suggest that since you don't want to be the beared of bad news--THEN DON'T BEAR IT! This is rumor mongering at it's worst whether it is true or not.

I sincerely hope that it is not true, however as I said, its not a random rumour that I heard. The friend who told me has direct connections to the horse and I do not think they would have been lied to.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:29 PM
PHEW!!!! Glad his spirits are up and he's eating well!

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:34 PM
I sincerely hope that it is not true, however as I said, its not a random rumour that I heard. The friend who told me has direct connections to the horse and I do not think they would have been lied to.
You got it from a friend who got it from a connection who got it from Amy--but it's reliable. Right. True or not third generation news is NOT your news to spread.

People, get a grip here!

Ellie K
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:44 PM
the IOC's position is consistently that policing, even to excess, is GOOD. they accept that bad things will happen in sport. For example, they accept that doping will occur. Positive drug tests for a sport in and of themselves are not really a problem, rather they somewhat like them because it shows that WADA is working (and they have carried this philosophy to an unbelievable extreme and still gotten all the governments of the world to sign on to it). What they will NOT accept is people keeping medals when rule breaking occurred...no enforcement of rules...Hence the FEI's zero choice but to strip GER of the jumping team medal in Athens, since if they had not upheld the rule not only would they invited the wrath of Jacques Rogge et al, but the CAS absolutely would have promptly reversed that decision, because it had no basis in the rules (and the USOC has outstanding lawyers). That case was an absolute no-brainer. Not fair to Ludger and GER, and everyone knows it sucks, but no choice for the FEI but to uphold the rules. And hence the FEI's zero choice but to bargain with Cian O'Connor--a light sanction, and a BS declaration that intent was not demonstrated, in exchange for him giving up the medal and agreeing not to appeal to CAS. Because of all the *cough*irregularities*cough* in the case, there was a very good chance that if he had appealed to CAS he would have kept the medal. THAT would have been an absolute disaster for the FEI. So he got off very easy because the greater good was to ensure he did not keep that medal. Again, this was not only the right decision, but the ONLY decision the FEI could make.

So if a case, which clearly (to the observer) falls under the possibility of abuse of horse, is televised and/or webcast to the world, and nothing comes of it procedurally, THAT is what would be damaging to the FEI and thus the sport, because it would be damaging to the IOC by association. THey MUST follow their rules and procedures, erring on the side of protection of horses and thus protection of the image of the sport (and thus the IOC by association). And, apparently, not in the opinion of any vague, faceless 'FEI' entity in Switzerland, but in the eyes of the officials at Rolex, a judicial proceeding and DQ were warranted. "The FEI" can't really do much if the officials do not initiate the process.

vineyridge
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:47 PM
I certainly agree with the person who said that it's time for a news conference on the horse's condition. Not doing so, unlike Barbaro's connection, lets all these rumors start, get passed around, and damages both the rider and eventing. (Sorry about the syntax, but y'all know what I mean)

Maybe the USEA or the USEF event people ought to have a PR person on call when something likes this happens.

Glimmerglass
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:56 PM
There were 90,000 plus people who went to Rolex - what they don't think these people care?

Just a small nit on my part but the reported 96,478 attendence is cumulative over the four days and at no part did the total for any one day exceed 47,000.

Saturday's XC was 46,000 and change up from 37 + last year. For the most part the same people were going to the venue over multiple days. Making the total number of unique people to come onto the grounds over the whole event likely a number at or under 47,000 if not a bit lower.

The entry gates appeared to count people twice if someone entered the park then left to put items in their car and return through the gate again ....

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 30, 2007, 02:56 PM
I also want to say....He did NOT go to Rood and Riddle he went straight to Hagyards.

Glimmerglass
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:02 PM
Maybe the USEA or the USEF event people ought to have a PR person on call when something likes this happens.

There is a media operations tent - which I was in - and from that perspective as Emily cited (by way of "her" Charlie who was there as an accredited photographer) the news was in fact given out. What else should've been done?

The condition of a horse is a personal matter and disclosure by the attending equine clinc - from which there are several options in Lexington - must be within their policy. Not all clinics will release info no matter who asks the questions.

In this age of hungry fans not willing to wait and expecting instant news they need to relax a bit.

kt
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:02 PM
I certainly agree with the person who said that it's time for a news conference on the horse's condition. Not doing so, unlike Barbaro's connection, lets all these rumors start, get passed around, and damages both the rider and eventing. (Sorry about the syntax, but y'all know what I mean)

Maybe the USEA or the USEF event people ought to have a PR person on call when something likes this happens.


The AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners) has a program exactly for this purpose, and it's used for basically any national, live-televised racing event. The organization trains certain vets in PR skills, and then these vets are ready to go live on camera in the case of an accident. After Barbaro's accident, Dr. Larry Bramlage was all over the media within the hour, courtesy of the AAEP's On Call program. It certainly helped the public understand what was going on and keep them updated. Perhaps using this program through the AAEP or some similar organization (i.e., USEF) would be a good idea in the future, specifically for the WEG.

In the past 15+ years I have been attending Rolex, I have noticed that accidents or breakdowns are not well announced (if at all) or updated throughout the event. Part of it is due to the on-going nature of the event (there are other riders on the XC course, etc.), part of it is due to initial confusion as to what really happened, and part of it is due to privacy..... all understandable and respectable reasons.... but it does seem a little hush-hush to me at times, and this is how rumors get started. Again, just my opinion.

I agree with whoever posted either in this or the other thread that you can't expect tens of thousands of people to show up for an event and not care or be interested in the welfare of a horse who had a very public breakdown on course. The very essence of why they are at the event is because they care about and love horses. Most of us here are not bashing Amy or think she is a horse abuser (questioning whether or not she made a bad decision does not equal either of those things). We just want to understand how/why it happened. And we are all very interested in how Sparky is doing.

vineyridge
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:20 PM
It's been two days now, and the severity of the injury still hasn't been disclosed. Nor has the medicalese for the actual injury. Amy and LeSamurai were in first place and would have ended XC in first place without the time penalties that were posted if he hadn't slowed because of the injury. They were bright stars on the horizon for the next few years.

The world of sporthorse people may be smaller than racing, but we care as much or more about the horses that compete as the average racing fan.

I just think it's time for factual updates on the horse's condition. That an FEI investigation for horse abuse is pending isn't a good excuse for not doing so. I want to know how he is NOW.

tle
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:28 PM
DW -- MMQ = Monday Morning Quarterback
:)

Ja Da Dee
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:32 PM
Is anyone reading or are you too busy spewing!? DID you SEE THIS POST?? HERE IS THE REALITY.


I guess it wasn't reality.

So sad that people can't be concerned without pointing fingers and starting rumors.

Lisamarie8
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:34 PM
I just think it's time for factual updates on the horse's condition. That an FEI investigation for horse abuse is pending isn't a good excuse for not doing so. I want to know how he is NOW.

We are owed nothing. Any information provided to us is a gift. I realize that this age of instant gratification re: information has shifted the general expectations towards a sense of entitlement, but the fact of the matter is, whether you WANT to know NOW or not... it's truly and deeply none of "our" business.

I'm not saying that NOT sharing information about a national level competitors (both horse and rider) is good from a PR standpoint. What I am saying is that this exhibition of demands for information is a little oogy.

I want to know lots of stuff about lots of things... that doesn't mean it's my prerogative. There are a lot more important decisions and analyses going on right now than what to tell the public. Personally, every second they have to think about what to what not to disclose to us (as a courtesy) is time that could be spent trying to analyze what happened, how to take the best care of the horse, and how to keep it from happening again. This is a horse, not a public servant.

Besdies, what's the difference if you find out a part of the story today or the entire story in 2 weeks? What if they did put him down (I am not saying they did), what would it matter if you found out today or on Wednesday. How would YOUR life change? For crap's sake, hold your horses.

(this has nothing to do with Amy's decision. I'm not commenting on that. This is just about people's apparent opinion that it is thier business to know everything about everything and as quickly as possible)

tle
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:35 PM
Is anyone reading or are you too busy spewing!? DID you SEE THIS POST?? HERE IS THE REALITY.


I guess it wasn't reality.

So sad that people can't be concerned without pointing fingers and starting rumors.

From someone who, on another thread where someone was genuinely asking for information on a withdrawn horse, you get the reply "you people need to get lives!"... what do you expect?

AlwaysHopeful
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:52 PM
I'll answer.

Because less than 24 hours after the event, before any inquiry is completed, before the extent of the injury to the horse is even known, before a young woman has had a chance to grieve her devastating lost and her own mistake IS TOO SOON for a bunch of less talented, less experienced, less informed strangers with the sole advantage of 20/20 hindsight and instant replay to question someone else's judgement in the heat of the moment. The FEI will do what they need to do, and the sport will respond how it needs to respond and it will all happen without any aid whatsoever of the uninformed opinions on this board.

If you want to second guess her after the facts are in, after knowledgable people have spoken, after we know the extent of the injuries, after we have a response from the FEI--when you actually have real information to question--then have at it. But right now, today, it is nothing more than elbowing in on some else's tragedy.


How could you not beleive that there are many comments here that would make the rider ill and add to her grief? If you don't wish her ill then don't say and imply things that would hurt her.

Great post, subk.

Jingles for Le Samurai and all those involved, especially Amy.

ToucheToujour
Apr. 30, 2007, 03:55 PM
Not knowing what the injury was, Amy could have further hurt the horse by pulling up quickly. Having ridden a horse through an injury on course, though not at this level, I know there's that moment where you think that your horse is going down, and then the horse swaps off and picks up again. You shake your reins a bit, the horse responds, and you think "Oh, he must have just struck himself" or "Oops, there went a shoe" or "Slippery part of the grass" and you keep going.

You don't realize that your horse just lost his suspensory. The horse I was on sustained a bad injury--eventually came back from it--but I have always regretted continuing on course after we slipped, and I felt that one little bobble.

We can't attack her for this. We weren't sitting on that horse.

Jingling hard for Sparky and Amy. Hope we get an update, but hoping harder that the horse is a'right and that Amy isn't reading threads like these.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:03 PM
.

Jingling hard for Sparky and Amy. Hope we get an update, but hoping harder that the horse is a'right and that Amy isn't reading threads like these.[/QUOTE]


Why not? She is on our olympic team, representing the american people at the top horse trials in the US with the world watching. She SHOULD answer her critics and JUSTIFY her actions. This is not the type of horsemanship I want the world to see from a fellow american. Yes mistakes are made, but you have to face the consequences whether intended or not. Who is speaking up for the horse that was asked to continue in such a state?!!!!

Ja Da Dee
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:17 PM
.
Why not? She is on our olympic team, representing the american people at the top horse trials in the US with the world watching. She SHOULD answer her critics and JUSTIFY her actions. This is not the type of horsemanship I want the world to see from a fellow american. Yes mistakes are made, but you have to face the consequences whether intended or not. Who is speaking up for the horse that was asked to continue in such a state?!!!!

Maybe because she already knows she made a mistake, and doesn't need a bunch of MMQB's dumping on her? I'm sure she's facing the consequences. The FEI will be speaking up for the horse as well as it's owners, and I'm sure many, many more people. Why do you think it's your responsibility to speak for the horse? What does her nationality have to do with any of this?

AlwaysHopeful
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:18 PM
.

Jingling hard for Sparky and Amy. Hope we get an update, but hoping harder that the horse is a'right and that Amy isn't reading threads like these.


Why not? She is on our olympic team, representing the american people at the top horse trials in the US with the world watching. She SHOULD answer her critics and JUSTIFY her actions. This is not the type of horsemanship I want the world to see from a fellow american. Yes mistakes are made, but you have to face the consequences whether intended or not. Who is speaking up for the horse that was asked to continue in such a state?!!!![/QUOTE]

She CAN'T answer or JUSTIFY herself, she's being reviewed for abuse!

deltawave
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:26 PM
Yes, subk, I acknowledge that people are being judgmental of Amy. However, my point is that we as a species are a judgmental lot and this is, like it or not, one of those scenarios where speculation and rumor and judgement and criticism are going to be flying. 90% of this thread is about one group being judgmental of another, is it not? You have Amy's defenders judging her detractors, you have her detractors judging her, etc. Anyone who's never, ever been judgmental, regardless of whether they're expert on the topic or not, speak up.

*crickets*

Thought so. :)

NeverTime
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:30 PM
Not knowing what the injury was, Amy could have further hurt the horse by pulling up quickly.

I understand how pulling a horse up quickly can do damage, but I absolutely cannot see how jumping a nearly 4-foot fence is a better/less harmful option. Pulling up slowly and NOT jumping would be another choice.



Having ridden a horse through an injury on course, though not at this level, I know there's that moment where you think that your horse is going down, and then the horse swaps off and picks up again. You shake your reins a bit, the horse responds, and you think "Oh, he must have just struck himself" or "Oops, there went a shoe" or "Slippery part of the grass" and you keep going.

I have to believe this is what Amy thought, because she's always shown herself to be an incredibly caring horsewoman. But still -- with the benefit of watching something online from the comfort of the sofa and hindsight -- I cannot believe she didn't move past that initial response when he'd taken, say, the EIGHTH bad stride. Of course, strides were hard to count in this situation as the horse was so unbelievable lame that he couldn't hold a gait.

Just really sad for everyone involved.

Row Wisco, Row!
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:30 PM
Yes, subk, I acknowledge that people are being judgmental of Amy. However, my point is that we as a species are a judgmental lot and this is, like it or not, one of those scenarios where speculation and rumor and judgement and criticism are going to be flying. 90% of this thread is about one group being judgmental of another, is it not? You have Amy's defenders judging her detractors, you have her detractors judging her, etc. Anyone who's never, ever been judgmental, regardless of whether they're expert on the topic or not, speak up.

*crickets*

Thought so. :)


:winkgrin: Oooh!! Mee!! Mee!! I'M JUMPING UP AND DOWN AS PROUD AS CAN BE!!! :winkgrin:

canyonoak
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:40 PM
To ellie k-- if the FEI had not decided to meddle with the sport and come up with short format, then I truly believe many of the present problems we have with the sport would never have occurred. And your post defending /explaining some of their recent decisions speaks for itself.

to others who feel that it is fine to post any opinions...I can only point out the rollercoaster of this thread alone--with someone gravely informing us that the horse in question is now euthanized, and someone else saying, no, he's about to go into surgery.

I'm not judging anyone (except, I guess, the FEI, allowing self a small smirk).

Amy Tryon's life is irrevocably changed. That is something we all recognize.

I wait hopefully for a sensible decision in this matter.

RAyers
Apr. 30, 2007, 04:42 PM
Yes, subk, I acknowledge that people are being judgmental of Amy. However, my point is that we as a species are a judgmental lot and this is, like it or not, one of those scenarios where speculation and rumor and judgement and criticism are going to be flying. 90% of this thread is about one group being judgmental of another, is it not? You have Amy's defenders judging her detractors, you have her detractors judging her, etc. Anyone who's never, ever been judgmental, regardless of whether they're expert on the topic or not, speak up.

*crickets*

Thought so. :)


Oh, what do you know?

Reed

JenJ
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:14 PM
I'll start by saying I know nothing about FEI procedures or its investigative and decision making powers.

I was at Rolex last year and watched the final vet check. One horse (i know who it was but dont feel it necessary to use the horse's name) was presented with a knee that was so fat, we spectators could see it from a distance. That horse was very badly lame. A small gasp went through the crowd as they passed and a vet literally prevented the rider from jogging the horse after the turn.

If competing an obviously lame horse = abuse, I would think that this situation in which the rider had an hour or two to make a decision on whether to present the horse, was pretty bad.

Is that the sort of situation that would draw the attention of the FEI? I believe that horse was scored as "not accepted" at final vet check as opposed to DQ.
What sort of sanctions can the FEI impose if they determine a particular case to be worthy of sanction?

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:16 PM
The reason there hasn't been a press release is that it is not the doctors or Hagyards place to say anything. Any and all decisions about press releases go through Amy and as a non event rider, his owners? That is what I know

Also Amy has been by his stall most if not all day. I hope to go visit him after I am done here but if she is outside his stall I am not allowed to disturb them.

flyingchange
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:19 PM
Well considering he's here in the surgery barn, with a cast on chillin and was eating well this morning...i don't think he's gone

THANK GOD. I was starting to have a meltdown. Thank you for this information.

Innocent Bystander
Apr. 30, 2007, 05:27 PM
I'll start by saying I know nothing about FEI procedures or its investigative and decision making powers.

I was at Rolex last year and watched the final vet check. One horse (i know who it was but dont feel it necessary to use the horse's name) was presented with a knee that was so fat, we spectators could see it from a distance. That horse was very badly lame. A small gasp went through the crowd as they passed and a vet literally prevented the rider from jogging the horse after the turn.

If competing an obviously lame horse = abuse, I would think that this situation in which the rider had an hour or two to make a decision on whether to present the horse, was pretty bad.

Is that the sort of situation that would draw the attention of the FEI? I believe that horse was scored as "not accepted" at final vet check as opposed to DQ.
What sort of sanctions can the FEI impose if they determine a particular case to be worthy of sanction?JenJ, the rider that presented that horse last year did draw the attention of the FEI and was yellow carded. You can be sure that she was well scrutinized by this year's officials when she presented the same horse at both the first and third horse inspections. Thankfully, her horse passed both inspections sound and fit to run.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:16 PM
Yes, subk, I acknowledge that people are being judgmental of Amy. However, my point is that we as a species are a judgmental lot and this is, like it or not, one of those scenarios where speculation and rumor and judgement and criticism are going to be flying. 90% of this thread is about one group being judgmental of another, is it not? You have Amy's defenders judging her detractors, you have her detractors judging her, etc. Anyone who's never, ever been judgmental, regardless of whether they're expert on the topic or not, speak up.
*crickets*
Thought so. :)
I love your posts DW. Yes, we as species are a judgmental lot. We are also sexual, but that doesn't mean there isn't a time and a place to and not to engage.

Yes, I've been judgmental of those who I judge are being unfair to someone already devastated. However, unlike Amy, the folks I'm judging here can PT me and tell me about my superiority complex and why they think I'm an asshat--and they have. I hope they feel better now.

I've continued to read this thread for the same reason I vehemently oppose any ban on flag burning: I'd rather identify and know who the "burners" and their supporters are so I can make better informed opinions about their ideas in the future. I'm sure those who disagree with me are doing the same, and I can live with that.

Lori B
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:20 PM
Mainly, subk, I read your posts so that I can be instructed in what questions and thoughts I am permitted to entertain and which, according to you in your superior judgment and wisdom, I must banish from my tiny pea-sized brain. I can't imagine what we would do without your eminent guidance.

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:30 PM
Mainly, subk, I read your posts so that I can be instructed in what questions and thoughts I am permitted to entertain and which you in your superior judgment and wisdom I must banish from my tiny pea-sized brain. I can't imagine what we would do without your eminent guidance.
Of course! But do you feel better now?

CJ4ME
Apr. 30, 2007, 06:33 PM
I think it is possible and fair to both opine that Amy made the wrong choice/decision in continuing on the course and to feel sympathy for her now.

It appeared to me she had ample time to pull up, the horse was dead lame. But I do not believe she knew the gravity of the injury, nor do I believe she would intentionally injure her horse. She gambled it wasn't serious, and she (and Le Samurei) lost.

Everyone, EVERYONE, makes bad decisions that they wish they could take back. I am sure Amy is second guessing herself and feels terrible and humiliated (or angry and attacked) about the criticism she is receiving.

Le Samurei was a game and courageous competitor and I hope he recovers enough to lead a comfortable and useful life.

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:09 PM
The reason there hasn't been a press release is that it is not the doctors or Hagyards place to say anything. Any and all decisions about press releases go through Amy and as a non event rider, his owners? That is what I know

Also Amy has been by his stall most if not all day. I hope to go visit him after I am done here but if she is outside his stall I am not allowed to disturb them.

I doubt anyone here thinks that Hagyard should be making press releases! Nor, do I think that AT or Le Samurai's owners should be expected to deal with that now. (That's what "a spokesperson for the family" is for.)

However! This injury occured at an event sanctioned by the FEI (and, I assume, the USEF and USEA) and it was run under their rules and this pair must be members subject to those rules. I must assume they (the orgs)have *some* standing - some right to be informed of the status of the horse's injury. I would think it would be in our official bodys' best interests to release some official information to the public.

FWIW a couple of the international BB's are just livid over the whole situation. Any official word would be better than the rumors and the outrage being expressed around the world right now.

Doesn't anyone in our orgs know how to write a reasonable, neutral, vaguely informative press release? This is spinning out of control and the damage to all concerned is going to keep getting worse until someone steps up and faces it head on.

SCFarm

SmplySweet1021
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:21 PM
I went to go look at him before I left work but Amy and some other people were in front of his stall talking so I just left for home.

I won't be back in the office till Wednesday maybe I can see him then

buschkn
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:30 PM
I think it is possible and fair to both opine that Amy made the wrong choice/decision in continuing on the course and to feel sympathy for her now.

It appeared to me she had ample time to pull up, the horse was dead lame. But I do not believe she knew the gravity of the injury, nor do I believe she would intentionally injure her horse. She gambled it wasn't serious, and she (and Le Samurei) lost.

Everyone, EVERYONE, makes bad decisions that they wish they could take back. I am sure Amy is second guessing herself and feels terrible and humiliated (or angry and attacked) about the criticism she is receiving.

Le Samurei was a game and courageous competitor and I hope he recovers enough to lead a comfortable and useful life.

A well stated response, I couldn't agree more. I am unable to speak about it without getting emotional so I will just say that I agree with the above. It is possible to think she made a very poor choice, still feel badly for what she is going through now, and most importantly to acknowledge how much incredible heart and courage that horse has and wish him well in what will hopefully be a pain free and happy life.

Allagash's mom
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:31 PM
"OMG, I saw the video and I know EVERYTHING and am the judge of all that ends ill"

really peoples. Can't we just start a new thread that is JUST about news/status reports on LeSamurai? I'm not the only one who wants to just read good facts (including from journalists who are CoTH posters too!!!) about the status of the horse in these first few critial days?

retreadeventer
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:38 PM
About eighty (80) percent of this thread is nonsense! If you have ridden an event horse EVER, you can post. If you have ridden at Advanced level EVER, you can post. If you have ever ridden a horse that broke down, you can post. Otherwise, how on earth can you possibly say that anything Amy did was wrong? Seeing it in a grainy video is sure not the same as feeling it at the point of no return in front of Fence 34 of Rolex! Good grief!

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:39 PM
What is additionally disturbing to me is how fast many of you are coming to the defense of the HUMAN when you spew on and on in other posts about how much you LOVE the horses.....
well, here's your chance to stick up for them.

BING, thank you. The horse cannot speak for itself.

xtwistx
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:43 PM
Okay, sorry for the mix up earlier - apparently he has not been put to sleep yet. This is what I have just heard. If you don't think my source is any good, or don't believe me, whatever, don't read it - this is just for anyone who's interested.

"Update, apparently the horse hasn't been put to sleep yet, but it is being considered, he's in a cast and can't walk, and apparently when he can have it off, he still won't be able to walk properly. The mix up was Phillip ringing jacks saying he 'should' be put to sleep, not 'has' been put to sleep. So yeh, he's screwed to the point of cruel to be kept alive but he is alive."

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:43 PM
I absolutely DESPISE myself for now dragging Barbaro in here--but go back, all of you who like to watch such videos, and look how far Prado had to go to stop the horse.
Is that what you are suggesting Amy Tryon should have done? You think that would have HELPED in this situation????


Except that Barbaro had to be pulled up, was still running on adrenaline. This horse was trying to break into a trot. A little different....

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 07:45 PM
I think it is possible and fair to both opine that Amy made the wrong choice/decision in continuing on the course and to feel sympathy for her now.
With the benefit of hindsight, is it even opinion that she made a bad choice? It's all the other stuff: "It was about being in first place...," "How could she not know..." and my current favorite, "I had a horse with that injury and.." (when the details of the injury itself has not been made public.) It's the "she's an idiot and I feel bad for her that people are publically calling her an idiot" type posts. It's the "if I'd been riding him I would have known and I'd've done a better job" sentiment. It's the "We have a right to ask questions so we can educate ourselves" yet no one is asking questions that might have thoughtful or informative answers. THOSE are the posts that I find difficult to swallow, not the she "made the wrong choice and I feel sorry for her" post.

clivers
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:15 PM
Okay, sorry for the mix up earlier - apparently he has not been put to sleep yet. This is what I have just heard. If you don't think my source is any good, or don't believe me, whatever, don't read it - this is just for anyone who's interested.

"Update, apparently the horse hasn't been put to sleep yet, but it is being considered, he's in a cast and can't walk, and apparently when he can have it off, he still won't be able to walk properly. The mix up was Phillip ringing jacks saying he 'should' be put to sleep, not 'has' been put to sleep. So yeh, he's screwed to the point of cruel to be kept alive but he is alive."

:( :(

holmes
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:26 PM
I have thrown shoes, broken horses, etc and there is NO way I believe for one second that someone with her experience was confused with the situation for the 20+ strides it took her to pull him up. It is appalling horsemanship, she should be reprimanded severely, and really makes someone who knows very little about eventing wonder what goes behind the scenes if this is the way one of your best riders behaves in front of such a large crowd.

If I was in the eventing community I would be horrified - your sport is dangerous, and you know animal rights protestors are just waiting for enough footage to go after you. Her actions in this event could damage your sport for many many years to come.

snoopy
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:30 PM
This is a shot heard round the world...:no:

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:33 PM
[COLOR=black]... really makes someone who knows very little about eventing wonder what goes behind the scenes if this is the way one of your best riders behaves in front of such a large crowd.
Yes, usually we try to keep the regular beatings behind closed stall doors back at the barn so large crowds don't have to bear witness.

Janeway
Apr. 30, 2007, 08:42 PM
Hunglikeastallion: Please don't judge our sport based on one incident. and insinuations like yours get you no where!

besides, if you are worried about what goes on behind closed doors, go look at the showjumping and dressage disciplines too. Unfortunately there is abuse in all equestrian related disciplines.

In terms of this incident though, I feel that Ms. Tryon made a very very poor judgement call and that under the rules of the FEI that were posted a few pages earlier, she does fall under the category of abuse as stated there.

Beyond that I can't imagine how horrible she feels and everyone connected to the horse.

dogchushu
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:03 PM
I doubt anyone here thinks that Hagyard should be making press releases! Nor, do I think that AT or Le Samurai's owners should be expected to deal with that now. (That's what "a spokesperson for the family" is for.)

However! This injury occured at an event sanctioned by the FEI (and, I assume, the USEF and USEA) and it was run under their rules and this pair must be members subject to those rules. I must assume they (the orgs)have *some* standing - some right to be informed of the status of the horse's injury. I would think it would be in our official bodys' best interests to release some official information to the public.

FWIW a couple of the international BB's are just livid over the whole situation. Any official word would be better than the rumors and the outrage being expressed around the world right now.

Doesn't anyone in our orgs know how to write a reasonable, neutral, vaguely informative press release? This is spinning out of control and the damage to all concerned is going to keep getting worse until someone steps up and faces it head on.

SCFarm

It's been what, 48 hours since the incident? They many not know any more than they did in the initial release and want a more certain prognosis before they release information that could either get everyones hopes up or dash them. Sure, there are rumors out there, but saying "we still don't know anything more; time will tell" doesn't really stop them.

In all honesty, I can fully understand why the owners or whomever is responsible for giving the okay to release informaton doesn't want to do so at this time. Aside from the fact that there may not be anything more to say right now, I wouldn't want thousands of people (many of whom may not know the difference between ligaments and linaments) offering up opinions and judging my decisions as to whether the horse should be put down, should get more aggressive treatment, etc.

Or maybe they just want to make up their minds what they will do before they get the public involved.

Or maybe they're private people who don't want a cast of thousands descending on them--even if only to offer well wishes and sympathy.

Yes, I would love more information on le Samuri. I'm saying many prayers for him. However, I'm not going to get upset because more information isn't available right now.

west5
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:12 PM
[COLOR=black]
If I was in the eventing community I would be horrified - your sport is dangerous,

GIVE ME A BREAK -- YOU ARE ALL OVER THIS BOARD AS A CONFIRMED POLO PLAYER -- HORSES & PEOPLE DON'T GET HURT PLAYING POLO -- :eek: please don't insult our intelligence.

Also, everyone has forgotten to notice that there were A LOT of responsible rides that day. Plenty of riders who excused themselves out of choice. Many good examples were set.

SR Rider
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:19 PM
In this age of instantaneous communications and 24 hour news channels have we somehow determined that others are obligated to tell us
everything....forgetting that some things are not necessarily our business...whether it is the condition of Ralph Hill or Le Samurai. In the
end we have to question just how much our need is based upon true concern or just curiosity.

holmes
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:25 PM
GIVE ME A BREAK -- YOU ARE ALL OVER THIS BOARD AS A CONFIRMED POLO PLAYER -- HORSES & PEOPLE DON'T GET HURT PLAYING POLO -- :eek: please don't insult our intelligence.

I never said that - but look how the HPA handles bad horsemanship, once incident I remember was a guy who was on a horse running through the bridle, he could not stop it, and whipped it out of frustration. He was banned from playing polo for a year!

We make a sincere effort in order to represent our sport properly, and correct people who misbehave.

CJ4ME
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:39 PM
About eighty (80) percent of this thread is nonsense! If you have ridden an event horse EVER, you can post. If you have ridden at Advanced level EVER, you can post. If you have ever ridden a horse that broke down, you can post. Otherwise, how on earth can you possibly say that anything Amy did was wrong? Seeing it in a grainy video is sure not the same as feeling it at the point of no return in front of Fence 34 of Rolex! Good grief!

I simply don't agree with this. If that logic held for any and all situation then no one could ever have an opinion about anything they haven't directly experienced. That just isn't realistic, sensible or logical. People CAN have opinions and they can be taken for just that....an opinion.

west5
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:43 PM
I never said that - but look how the HPA handles bad horsemanship, once incident I remember was a guy who was on a horse running through the bridle, he could not stop it, and whipped it out of frustration. He was banned from playing polo for a year!

We make a sincere effort in order to represent our sport properly, and correct people who misbehave.

We don't know what the FEI is going to do. So please don't put the cart before the horse.

holmes
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:47 PM
You blasted polo, just told you the efforts we make.

LLDM
Apr. 30, 2007, 09:55 PM
It's been what, 48 hours since the incident? They many not know any more than they did in the initial release and want a more certain prognosis before they release information that could either get everyones hopes up or dash them. Sure, there are rumors out there, but saying "we still don't know anything more; time will tell" doesn't really stop them.

In all honesty, I can fully understand why the owners or whomever is responsible for giving the okay to release informaton doesn't want to do so at this time. Aside from the fact that there may not be anything more to say right now, I wouldn't want thousands of people (many of whom may not know the difference between ligaments and linaments) offering up opinions and judging my decisions as to whether the horse should be put down, should get more aggressive treatment, etc.

Or maybe they just want to make up their minds what they will do before they get the public involved.

Or maybe they're private people who don't want a cast of thousands descending on them--even if only to offer well wishes and sympathy.

Yes, I would love more information on le Samuri. I'm saying many prayers for him. However, I'm not going to get upset because more information isn't available right now.

That is so NOT the point. There is bloody little information at all - about any of it. Just a youtube video being downloaded all over the world. The rumors are flying. It needs to be addressed.

Here is an EXAMPLE of the type of press release from the FEI/USEF/USEA/some bloody official would say: The incident at the end of AT's XC ride on LS at Rolex is of deep concern to everyone invovled. LS is currently under evaluation at Hagard and all treatment options are being explored. LS is currently resting quietly under 24 hr supervision. The FEI is currently investigating the incident and is in the process of gathering all relevent information. It is their intent to be fair to all parties and, as stated in the the FEI's prime directives, to ensure the welfare of competition horses above and beyond all other concerns. As more information becomes available on the investigation process or LS's medical condition it will be released on www.?????.org.com.net (http://www.?????.org.com.net)

It would at least quell the rumors that LS has been PTS. It would at least give us, the eventing public, a way to reassure non-eventers that the situation is being addressed at the highest levels and in the best interests of the horses and the sport. It would at least tell us where the heck to look for official information. And it would at least show that there is concern for the perception of the public!

It in no way intrudes upon anyone. It's just not that hard to manage to these types of things - so why do our orgs fall down on the job so? People will asked until answered.

SCFarm

subk
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:06 PM
I never said that - but look how the HPA handles bad horsemanship, once incident I remember was a guy who was on a horse running through the bridle, he could not stop it, and whipped it out of frustration. He was banned from playing polo for a year!

We make a sincere effort in order to represent our sport properly, and correct people who misbehave.
That's great. Did your polo organization manage to bring down punishment in less than 24 hours after the competition and before an inquery that included an opportunity for him to respond?

cyberbay
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:13 PM
Acting swiftly isn't the same thing as acting appropriately or productively... Again, if a quick feel-good is what you're after, join a lynching mob. If you want to really help resolve the situation so that we can learn and maybe prevent a repeat, then get a grip on yourself, learn the facts, and let this situation take the course it needs to take.

As an aside, banning the guy from playing polo (I'm assuming that meant he couldn't play in official matches?) doesn't mean he got help, or that the ban stopped him from playing out the same bad behavior at home. Banning just drives people underground... Since when does punishment teach anything?

fergie
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:17 PM
Public humilitation does a much better job. What goes around comes around.

pegasusmom
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:28 PM
I never said that - but look how the HPA handles bad horsemanship, once incident I remember was a guy who was on a horse running through the bridle, he could not stop it, and whipped it out of frustration. He was banned from playing polo for a year!

We make a sincere effort in order to represent our sport properly, and correct people who misbehave.

Please don't assume there will be no professional sanctions, fines or repercussions from this regardless of personal feelings about right and wrong. USEA, USEF, and FEI regulations all address the issue of abuse and there are very detailed rules that are followed in order to follow due process. HPA? Never heard of it. I do know what the rules for the US Polo Association are however.

Abuse takes place in every equine sport. If you think it is not so you are naive.

As for polo. . . ask me about the high goal Argentine mare I have in my barn. I could certainly make a case for horrific abuse in the sport if I took her case as representative of the sport.

lucky dog farm
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:45 PM
Sparky is a brave and valiant horse. If he is tough enough to compete at a 4 * then Amy has done something right with him and maybe we as a non elite group of eventers should give her a bit of a break. I am sure she is kicking herself and who among us has NOT made a mistake. She seems to be a very caring horsewomen and cetainly she has worked her way up from the ground. It was an accident and it was a h**l of a lot better thatn racing a 3 yr old colt named Barbaro until he broke down.

solargal
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:52 PM
Sparky is a brave and valiant horse. If he is tough enough to compete at a 4 * then Amy has done something right with him and maybe we as a non elite group of eventers should give her a bit of a break. I am sure she is kicking herself and who among us has NOT made a mistake. She seems to be a very caring horsewomen and cetainly she has worked her way up from the ground. It was an accident and it was a h**l of a lot better thatn racing a 3 yr old colt named Barbaro until he broke down.


She kicks and spurs a broke down horse over a huge jump and across a finish line but it is ok because she is a horsewoman. She's a horsewoman because she is an eventer right? But then you throw in Barbaro....Did you forget who his trainer was? They were both accidents. The only difference is the jockey didn't hit Barbaro to make him go when he broke down.

clivers
Apr. 30, 2007, 10:54 PM
Sparky is a brave and valiant horse. If he is tough enough to compete at a 4 * then Amy has done something right with him and maybe we as a non elite group of eventers should give her a bit of a break. I am sure she is kicking herself and who among us has NOT made a mistake. She seems to be a very caring horsewomen and cetainly she has worked her way up from the ground. It was an accident and it was a h**l of a lot better thatn racing a 3 yr old colt named Barbaro until he broke down.

That horse was "tough enough" to compete at Rolex with his previous rider before Amy ever met him.
I don't think her hard working past is relevant - except in how it inspires posters on this board. Who knows, it may have made her MORE likely to push herself and her horse to the last - even when it was clearly the wrong thing to do.

Carol Ames
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:30 PM
t sounds like the officials are on top of this,:yes: so let's let them do their job, and send jingles to both Amy and her horse;) .






























News
Tryon Under FEI Investigation Following Rolex Kentucky
Le Samurai’s injury before the last fence at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event left spectators at the event and around the globe, who were watching on the Internet, shocked and upset. He jumped the last fence almost on three legs, and Amy Tryon, who had been in the lead after dressage, dismounted immediately upon crossing the finish line.

Members of the ground jury met later on April 28 to investigate the incident for alleged abuse. They reviewed written statements from the fence judges, watched the videotape and interviewed FEI Veterinary Delegate Dr. Catherine Kohn. They could not reach Tryon, because she had left the show grounds to be with Le Samurai.

Ground jury officials then referred the matter to the FEI Appeal Committee because the matter falls under their duties, according to article 164.4.5 of the FEI General Regulations, “In serious cases, immediate disqualification with one or more horses from a competition or from the whole event with referral to the Secretary General (for referral to the Judicial Committee.)”

Tryon was disqualified from the competition. She released a statement on April 29: “Le Samurai is resting comfortably at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute [Ky.] and has the best care that could be provided anywhere in the world. I wish to express that I am totally devastated about the injury he sustained yesterday but cannot comment further pending a review by the FEI. I’d give anything if this had not happened. I love this horse. Le Samurai is very special to me, and we share a deep bond that is beyond competition. Although we will no longer be competing together, we will always be partners. I thank everyone who has generously assisted with Le Samurai’s care and been so supportive.”

The FEI Judicial Committee (Ken Lalo of Israel, Erik Elstad of Norway, Jens Adolphsen of Germany, Patrick Boelens of Belgium, Leonidas C. Georgopoulos of Greece, Helen Huggett of Great Britain and Philip O'Connor of Ireland) may take any action, ranging from a warning, to a fine, to a suspension for any period of time or for life, if she is found to have violated the rules.
Tryon and Severson Named for Olympic Test Event
Amy Tryon and Kim Severson will travel to Hong Kong this August to ride in the CCI** test event for the 2008 Olympic Games. Tryon, Duvall, Wash., will ride Coal Creek, a 7-year-old Thoroughbred gelding owned by Kathryn Sullivan and Tryon. Severson, Keene, Va., will ride Tipperary Liadhnan, a 10-year-old Irish Sport Horse gelding owned by Elizabeth Wachtmeister. Alternates include Tryon with Leyland, Severson with Tsunami, Bonnie Mosser, Unionville, Pa., with Merloch, Close The Deal or Jenga and Cindy Rawson, Somerset, Great Britain, with Halavadream. The test event will run Aug...
Apr-26-2007

Jockey Seriously Injured At Maryland Grand National
Jockey Ellen Horner was airlifted to the University of Maryland Shock-Trauma Center after suffering a fall at the Maryland Grand National in Butler on April 21. Horner fell from her mount Thundering Home in the amateur highweight timber, her third race of the day...
Apr-23-2007

Blue Hors Matine Withdrawn
Blue Hors Matine sustained a minor injury to her left front leg while unloading from the van from the airport to the Thomas & Mack Arena for the Rolex FEI World Cup Final for Dressage in Las Vegas, Nev. She showed uneven steps at the initial veterinary check on Tues., April 17, and her rider, Denmark’s Andreas Helgstrand, decided to withdraw her from the competition. ““The veterinarian said that she might recover by tomorrow and be able to compete, but we didn’t want to take any chances,” said Helgstrand in a press release...
Apr-18-2007

Blue Hors Matine Fails First Jog At World Cup
...
Apr-17-2007

British Eventer Suffers Fatal Injuries At Sapey Horse Trials
Jo-Anne Williams, of Anglesey,Wales, died after falling from her horse at the eighth fence on cross-country in the Sapey Horse Trials, Sapey, Worcestershire, England, according to www.horseandhound.co.uk. Williams was competing at the novice level, which is equivalent to preliminary in the United States...
Apr-17-2007

Dutch Dressage Chef d’Equipe Sjef Janssen Resigns
Dutch Equestrian Federation officials announced on April 12 that Sjef Janssen has decided not to continue in the role of chef d’equipe to the Dutch dressage team. He took over the position in 2005 after coaching Anky van Grunsven to individual gold at the 2004 Athens Olympics. Janssen said that he resigned because a group of top Dutch riders wasn’t fully committed to pursuing professional preparation for the 2008 Beijing Olympics...
Apr-12-2007

Dutch Twist Fatally Injured
Dutch Twist, ridden by Lindsay Pearce and owned by Patricia Pearce, was fatally injured while competing in the open intermediate division at The Fork Horse Trials in Norwood, N.C., April 7. The 11-year-old bay gelding fell while jumping fence 3, The Stone-Fenced Table, a portable fence...
Apr-09-2007

USEF Announces First Tour Samsung Super League Team
On April 6, officials at the U.S...
Apr-06-2007

Marlies van Baalen Replaces Laurens van Lieren At Dressage World Cup Final
Laurens van Lieren’s Hexagon’s Ollright sustained a minor injury before ‘s-Hertogenbosch, the last CDI-W in the Western European League. Van Lieren hoped the 11-year-old Dutch Warmblood would be sound enough for the Rolex FEI World Cup Final in Las Vegas, Nev., but veterinarians advised against competing him until the injury to the ligament had completely healed. The 25-year-old from the Netherlands was disappointed not to go to his second Final. “But the most important thing is the well being of my horse,” he said in a press release. “Both he and I are too young to be sidelined yet...
Apr-04-2007

Show All News
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kt-rose
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:39 PM
If I was in the eventing community I would be horrified - your sport is dangerous

You are right! As the owner/rider of a couple of young event horses and one Prelim, hopefully upper, level horse currently ridden by a professional I am profoundly disturbed. It will be heartbreakingly tough for either Le Samurai or eventing to recover from Amy's lapse in judgement. We all make mistakes but there are some where the price is so high there is no recovery. I feel for Le Samurai, his owner, the eventing community and Amy -- this is going to haunt all of us -- as it should.

vineyridge
Apr. 30, 2007, 11:40 PM
LM8, thanks, but no thanks for your comments.

Eventing is in trouble with the FEI. Animal Rights Activists are against ALL horse sports, and eventing is one of the most dangerous for horse and rider alike. The whole world sees a horse break down at one of the top venues for International class riders, and the horse goes on to jump a fence and cross the finish line. A blue tarp, which often signifies euthanasia goes up, then the horse is loaded into an ambulance and hauledaway. The venue vet makes a statement that is couched in non-medical language and, to put it mildly, vague.

The rider makes a statement saying the horse will no longer compete with her. No context--is the horse to be retired, to be put down, to be pulled from her barn. Any one of those interpretations is possible.

Even if Le Samurai's jockey and his owners don't want to face the public, by putting the horse at the absolutely peak of competition, they have made him a public figure; and, just as everyone was eager for updates on Ralph Hill's condition--which were given fairly regularly at first--, people are eager for news of Le Samurai. The openness of the Barbaro connections about his prognosis and treatment have set standards that the rest of the horse world should find worth copying.

The deafening silence on the horse's condition is terrifying, given all of the possible interpretations of AT's statement. Someone official or family should say something. That is my judgment, and I'm qualified to make that one based on my own past history with sensational events. Good PR should be the VERY first thought of the governing bodies.

And I'm not judging her at all. I'm simply not qualified to have an opinion.

LLDM, you're right on target with your comments.

sofiethewonderhorse
May. 1, 2007, 12:00 AM
Someone official or family should say something. That is my judgment, and I'm qualified to make that one based on my own past history with sensational events.

Dearest Readers, family has spoken, we just continue to be crucified.

On this forum, there are two threads on this topic, family/friends have spoken on both with very disrespectful adverse results...

Lynching is a favorite past time around here...NO?

LLDM
May. 1, 2007, 12:21 AM
Dearest Readers, family has spoken, we just continue to be crucified.

On this forum, there are two threads on this topic, family/friends have spoken on both with very disrespectful adverse results...

Lynching is a favorite past time around here...NO?

With all due respect, we have no way to know who is family, who is official, or who is anybody in any position to know anything in real life about this situation here on a BB. The only post that sticks out for me is that someone said they had a different horse with Amy. Maybe they do, but it didn't seem relevant and was just a general "we support her" kind of thing.

That is why official channels exist. So that people can tell facts and best current information from rumors and guesses. I have been asking for information from our Governing bodies and orgs for just this reason.

I will continue to jingle and hope for Le Samurai most of all, and for everyone close to him.

SCFarm

Sebastian
May. 1, 2007, 12:30 AM
With all due respect, we have no way to know who is family, who is official, or who is anybody in any position to know anything in real life about this situation here on a BB. The only post that sticks out for me is that someone said they had a different horse with Amy. Maybe they do, but it didn't seem relevant and was just a general "we support her" kind of thing.

That is why official channels exist. So that people can tell facts and best current information from rumors and guesses. I have been asking for information from our Governing bodies and orgs for just this reason.

I will continue to jingle and hope for Le Samurai most of all, and for everyone close to him.

SCFarm

The person you just quoted IS the person who owns Amy's other horse... :rolleyes:

The venom being spread on these threads is disappointing to say the LEAST...

I'm not saying these things can't or shouldn't be discussed, but it seems many here want to lump her in with the true horse killers, and it's just NOT the case.

Seb

BLBGP
May. 1, 2007, 01:03 AM
I'm not saying these things can't or shouldn't be discussed, but it seems many here want to lump her in with the true horse killers, and it's just NOT the case.

Seb

Where do you see that? It seems to me that most people are saying she made a big error in judgement and a big mistake. If you've read any of the dozens of "true horse killer" threads, you would see that the word "mistake" inspires a venom unparalleled by any Parelli, drawrein, or rolkeur thread.

No one is saying she did this deliberately. Lots of people are saying they wish she had pulled the horse up and arguing the sentiment that she "pulled the horse up immediately after the fence" when the video clearly shows she cantered through the finish line before dismounting.

Like someone said earlier, we will do a lot for the sport if we stand by the horse. A lot more than we will do by circling the wagons or trying to squelch the story.

SmplySweet1021
May. 1, 2007, 07:49 AM
Sorry I won't be at work today so I can't give any updates on his condition, I'll see if one of the girls will let me know.

Yesterday when I left Amy, his owners, and his doctor were outside his stall so I didn't go into the barn, it wasn't my place.

I wish I could give you all the information that i know but I could face losing my job, so I can only give you small amounts. Sorry!

PiedPiper
May. 1, 2007, 09:03 AM
Why does everyone to know everything right away? People HAVE PATIENCE. I am sure all questions will be answered in due time but things like this are never spelled out in their entirety in the first 72 hours.

Are we such products of instant news that we can't let the process, nature, and people show us the answers in due time?

No one who competes in any equine discpline can talk right now. There have been travesties and tragedies and deaths of both equine and human in all sports. The animal rights actually seems to have less of a presence in protesting this sport than then did in the 80's. In alot of ways this sport is MUCH safer than in years past but then we are a nation of short attention spans and just as short memories.

Listen, people will believe what they want to believe. If you are for this sport, than this is just an unexpected tragedy that needs to be figured out, learned from, and moved on. If you are against it, then it is just another nail in the coffin and no matter how many years, competitions, and competitors that go through without a problem will be ignored for the next sensational disaster.

It is apparent that judgements were already decided seconds after this happened and people are just gathering "facts" to support it. Sad state of affairs. :(

Lori B
May. 1, 2007, 11:30 AM
Umm, no, not at all PiedPiper. I think it's not crazy to expect a straightforward press release by someone official, along the lines suggested by someone earlier in this thread. I think what you mainly are seeing on this thread (Please note I said MAINLY) is concern and interest in the wellbeing of the horse, rider, and sport, none of which are by definition unseemly and inappropriate.

Equestrian sports can't have it both ways. Folks complain about a lack of interest in and audience for this sport's great events and competitions, but then when something like this happens, and what audience there is asks for thoughtful, timely, accurate official PR about it, and then, suddenly, the interest and attention that was previously so earnestly desired is treated as intrusive, judgmental, wrong, etc.

eventamy
May. 1, 2007, 11:48 AM
Jingles for Amy and Le Samurai!
I hope he's ok and will recover. I will NOT judge Amy on her decision, I know she's doing it enough herself.

vineyridge
May. 1, 2007, 12:40 PM
You know, I just remembered the PR term for what needed/needs to be done by the USEA or USEF. It's called damage control, and the longer the lack of information and official intervention go on, the more the damage to both sport and rider's reputations is likely to spiral out of control.

On one of the other threads a British rider said that many Brits were saying that AT should not be welcome to ride in Britain again. That is as appalling a conclusion based on no proven facts as the German banning of McLain Ward from Aachen for several years for horse abuse. The FEI will determine the particulars of the incident, and I, for one, am perfectly willing to wait for their decision. After all, what's done is done.

The condition of the horse, however, is not done, at least not publicly, and the official bodies need to get their butts in gear and start damage control.

I see this situation as a failure of the USEF, which, face it, is located at the site of the accident. If they are this incompetent at a national event, I shudder to think how incompetent they will be at the WEG.

Black Forest
May. 1, 2007, 02:56 PM
. That is as appalling a conclusion based on no proven facts as the German banning of McLain Ward from Aachen for several years for horse abuse. .

I beg your pardon?

Firstly that is a completely different ugly can of worms - and secondly I don't see how you can say the two are in any way comparable - or that they were wrong to ban McLain Ward from Aachen -

You can not compare something that is probably a "bad judgement call" at a high adrenaline situation with conscious and planned and carefully executed actions!

Ellie K
May. 1, 2007, 03:06 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought vineyridge was referring to Aachen's unilateral (and legally unsupportable) "lifetime ban" on Mr. Ward, not to the nature of his offense or the fact that he was found guilty of abuse by the FEI and sanctioned. S/he was responding to the poster who said that Amy would not be welcome to ride in Britain. Organisers of international events (yes, even Aachen, lol) have no legal right to impose such bans. They must uphold any sanctions by the applicable governing body. But once a suspension is served, they cannot deny participation to anyone qualified and entered by his/her NF.

So the parallel has nothing to do with any intentional vs. nonintentional aspect or the nature of the incident, just that events themselves cannot deny participation just because they want to. They can decline to send an invitation to the US if they want (unless it's a championship/final/games for which the US has a right to participate with qualified riders), or they can send invitations only to specific riders from the US. But if they invite the US-at-large, they have to accept the entries the US submits, whether for a CIO or a CI. Aachen also had to do this--once he had served his suspension, they had no right to say he could not compete there. And they know these rules (albeit the AHSA probably didn't, lol) but it was done anyway, for show.

vineyridge
May. 1, 2007, 03:10 PM
Poor sentence.

What I meant to say was that it is appalling for an American rider at the top of our sport to be condemned and found to have abused horses--as McLain was at Aachen--, and to do it without facts, as the Brits seem willing to do in this case, is clearly a case for USEF damage control. All American horse sports suffer when such things happen.

Ellie K, I only wish I knew as much about FEI procedures as you do. Thanks for explaining the legalities.

The writing all came out wrong. I agree that what McLain did was worthy of banning/suspension, and I personally only wished he had been FEI banned/suspended for life. But that's a whole different kettle of fish, and not a sidetrack to be followed here.

fuller0819
May. 1, 2007, 04:43 PM
i was there and i got the video from the production company at the rolex!! it is a perfectly clear perfectly zoomed picture of that horse.

he had a misstep. HE WAS LAME!! I'M SORRY THE ONLY THING I HOPE IS THAT SINCE THEY WERE IN 1ST PLACE THAT SHE DIDN'T END THIS HORSES CAREER BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO STAY THERE.

HE WAS SO LAME THAT SHE IS VERY LUCKY THAT HE DIDN'T GO DOWN WITH HER ON HIM!!! IF SHE COULDN'T FEEL HOW BAD HE WAS UNDER HER THEN SHE NEEDS TO PAY A LITTLE MORE ATTENTION TO HER HORSE WHEN SHE IS DOING SUCH A DANGEROUS SPORT.
1ST OF ALL SHE DID NOT PULL BACK FOR HIM SHE ACTUALLY KEPT HIM GOING. IN THE VIDEO I BOUGHT YOU CAN HEAR HER KISS CUE HIM OVER THE LAST JUMP AND AFTER THE JUMP TO CLEAR THE TIMERS. SHE KEEP HIM GOING THE WHOLE TIME!! WHEN SHE CLEARED THE LAST JUMP SHE KEPT HIM GOING INTO SLOW TRANSITIONS DOWN TO THE STOP FOR 12 SEC. WHEN SHE GOT OFF HIM AND STOOD THERE HOLDING HIM AND LOOKED DOWN AT HIS FRONT LEG. AND AT THAT POINT YOU KNOW SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH THAT HORSE, TO ME THAT PROVED IT BECAUSE AFTER THAT LAST JUMP WHEN SHE JUMPED OFF RATHER QUICKLY BEFORE CLEARING HIM OUT OF CAMERA VIEW LIKE THE OTHER HORSES AND LOOKED AT HIS LEG (BUT NEVER TOUCHED IT) I WOULD HAVE TO SAY SHE KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM AND SHE WAITED THERE FOR THE GROOMS AND (I'M ASSUMING) IT WAS THE VET THAT WAS RUNNING DOWN WITH HER BAG. :mad: :mad: :mad:

JAGold
May. 1, 2007, 04:53 PM
fuller, get a grip. If she knew he was badly injured, she also knew that finishing XC would not keep her in first place, since he wouldn't pass the jog or be able to jump stadium. --Jess

tle
May. 1, 2007, 05:11 PM
ditto JAGold.

Plus, exactly what is the problem with standing, keeping the horse quiet and still and waiting for the help that WAS coming?? You say she waited there for the vets like it's a bad thing? What exactly would you have rather she done? It's not like she was carrying an ultrasound machine or xray with her for heaven's sake.

caffeinated
May. 1, 2007, 05:14 PM
It's quite clear she was supposed to give the horse a piggyback ride to the veterinary hospital.

But in all seriousness- there's no way the finish had anything to do with greed and wanting to stay in first. There's no first place for finishing XC on a lame horse, because you can't compete the next day. If she knew how bad it was, there would have been no reason in continuing- even if she was the greediest person in the world! Because there would have been no benefit.

pegasusmom
May. 1, 2007, 06:04 PM
Well, now that we have ALL firmly established what it is we saw, what we think, what we think Amy thought, what we think Amy's motivations were, how we think she should be punished, how other organizations deal with alledged abuse, misinformation from friends of friends of friend who are neighbors. . . . I just wanted to say I love Caffeinated's signature line.

I have been married to a testosterone laiden beret wearing fruit for 30 years. . .

Jingles for all concerned

caffeinated
May. 1, 2007, 06:06 PM
I have been married to a testosterone laiden beret wearing fruit for 30 years. . .


ha! excellent!

CJ4ME
May. 1, 2007, 07:12 PM
I second that --love the sig line...although Pegasusmom how does that married to a fruit thing work out for you? Or perhaps you mean a fruitbat? Because there are a lot on these threads! :)

pegasusmom
May. 1, 2007, 08:25 PM
Well, since it's been thirty years, I'd say it has worked out well for me! I don't know to whom Caffienated's sig line refers to, but my husband is a Colonel in the US Army Special Forces, currently serving in Iraq (and for those among you who are NPR junkies you might have heard his interview yesterday morning on Morning Edition). Special Forces are otherwise known as Green Berets of course and until recently worldwide only airborne and special ops soldiers wore berets.

Then some d$%@ US Army general declared all our troops would have berets. . .

and yes I have hijacked the thread. And no I am not joining in on the feeding frenzy. I think it is time everyone sits back, takes a deep breath, and lets FEI wheels of justice turn. Or churn.

And there are times Mr Peg has been a fruitbat as well. . . :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :winkgrin:

wabadou
May. 1, 2007, 08:42 PM
"The Horse" (publication of Bloodhorse magazine)
has published a story about the FEI investigation

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9505

They are generally very conscientious and careful about what they publish.

(Should this be a new thread? not sure...)

CJ4ME
May. 1, 2007, 08:46 PM
And there are times Mr Peg has been a fruitbat as well. . . :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :winkgrin:

Please, oh, please tell me your Green Beret DH's response when he hears you called him a fruit on a national BB! :lol:

pegasusmom
May. 1, 2007, 08:56 PM
Well, being a guy who has worn a beret for a long time, he's developed quite a refined sense of humor. I'll keep ya posted!

And now back to our regularly scheduled programing. . . . heavy sigh.

Picasso
May. 1, 2007, 09:05 PM
I have been married 17 years to a testosterone laden, beret wearing, adrenalin junkie! He is also currently serving in Iraq and is one of the guys they call "Doc".

For the rest of you who don't have one of their own? The uniform is the icing on the cake! :D

(Sorry to join the thread hijacking)

caffeinated
May. 1, 2007, 09:47 PM
The funny thing is that the sig line was said by my bestest friend ever, after she went on a mediocre date with a very good looking european soccer player who showed up in a beret.

She lurks on here sometimes.... hehe

wabadou
May. 2, 2007, 07:23 PM
I seem to remember you mentioning you'd be back at work today and look in on Sparky. I hope all is still well and he is comfortable.