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YoungFilly
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:38 PM
:)

I am changing this first post because the people who did lease her did see this post.

Gigi is *really* going to a nice retirement facility. She will be ok for life. She is my horse, I take responsibility for my horses.

My little difficult girl will get her favorite job, eating grass. :)

OakesBrae
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:45 PM
Hon? What did she do? I'm confused....

STF
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:45 PM
Im sorry Young Filly. :(

good booie
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:46 PM
Why did you lease her?

YoungFilly
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:47 PM
She bolted, and tossed the girl that thought she could ride her. Thats what she did. :sadsmile:

OakesBrae
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:50 PM
Awwwww, and so she doesn't want to lease her because of one bolt?

*sigh*

I'm so sorry YF.

good booie
Apr. 3, 2007, 09:50 PM
Why did this require retirement?

tarragon
Apr. 3, 2007, 10:30 PM
Oh YF, I'm so sorry it didn't work out. :(

I swear some horses seem like they try their darndest to defeat our best efforts to take care of them. It's a shame the leasee would quit after just one bad incident- Gigi's such a lovely mare.

EqTrainer
Apr. 3, 2007, 10:42 PM
It is heart breaking when it seems like a horse never acts in it's own best interests.

But you are doing the right thing, YF. She has always been like this to some degree or another, hmmm? Some horses really don't want to do this. Better to acknowledge it and move on. Lucky for her you will retire her.

Dalfan
Apr. 3, 2007, 11:33 PM
If my memory serves from the last videos you posted; wasn't it apparent that this mare had some physical problems (ie, back, lame in the hind)?

Did you have her checked out? If not, what would you expect by jumping a horse that had back/hind end physical problems.

YoungFilly
Apr. 3, 2007, 11:51 PM
Dalfan, I don't think you get how heart sick I am over this. :sadsmile:

PiedPiper
Apr. 4, 2007, 07:03 AM
I guess I don't understand why really? She isn't dying is she? You are just deciding retirement is a better fit. I have a retiree and he couldn't be happier and is decidedly MUCH happier than in his showing days. Now my checkbook isn't as happy with the situation but ;)

I guess the "ending of an era" can be saddening but one must put things in perspective. :yes:

Chin up. :)

kkj
Apr. 4, 2007, 08:18 AM
I really debated as to whether to post on this or not, but oh well here I go.

I do remember the video of this horse and I was confident that she was not right behind. I thought she looked pretty off, not tracking up etc. Could have been hocks, stifles, back. YF had vet out who said just muscle soreness. Did you have the hocks blocked, xrays, nuke scan of back or anything? Because in the later video the horse still does not look right. Also this horse is barefoot. A horse that moves like that needs support of shoes even if the feet are not broken up. Did you really spend the time and money on a good vet to fully explore this or did you just take the diagnosis of muscle soreness and run with it?

I have had vets tell me different horses had muscle soreness when they did indeed need hock injections, had a stifle problem and even had a tear in both sides of the sacroliac. Just something to think about. Sometimes it takes a few different vets or one very good one, or a trip to a big equine hospital, or university to get things diagnosed.

Also, most horses would much rather be living the retired life at 6 years than having someone ride them who is not a very good rider or have someone ride them when they are not feeling well (melonomas) or are lame or stiff.

For every melonoma you can see there are plenty more inside internally affecting the horse. I have lost a horse to this disease so I feel for you.

I have personally retired horses at 6 myself. I have placed a sound horse as a broodmare because I thought that was where she would be happiest. I could have easily sold that mare as a hunter, but I took the loss and felt better about it. I have an 8 year old wobbler who I bought as a foal. He became a wobbler at 11/2 and I did surgery on him. Surgery and rehab 8k, and he is an unbroke pasture pet. He is very very content never to be ridden. He will probably live to 35. In my mind when you take on a horse you take them on for life if need be and if you can find a way to afford it. If the horse is truly sound and better suited for someone else, go ahead and sell them. Otherwise, suck it up, you are stuck in my mind. That is just how it is.

YF I can tell you love your horses and you are lucky to be able to afford a retirement facility. If you can't find this mare a suitable home, then retire her and let her be as content as possible. If you haven't had her really really looked at xrayed, blocked, scoped, scanned whatever, I would probably do that first. Maybe she just needs some hock injections and an Adequan routine or something.

Good luck.

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 08:27 AM
She is perfectly sound. I have had vets look at her. Its her personality thats doing her in. She is not an easy ride by any stretch of the imagination. I have done all I can to try to make it work for her. I do love her, and I am extremely frustrated that she is not doing her part of the equation. That was said to the people who leased her just so you all know. I couldn't have been more straight forward.

I am not spending anymore money on this horse, other than her retirement, and medical and maintenance expenses. Enough is enough.


Edited to add:

Please don't start in on me. I don't want a fight. I am just frustrated and trying to do the right thing.

Ja Da Dee
Apr. 4, 2007, 08:48 AM
You're upset that she's not doing her part? She's a horse, she can only do what she knows how to do... be a horse. If she's got a history of bolting, then address the training, or don't put riders up that can't handle a bolt.

I hope that you continue to take good care of her, and don't feel like you need to punish her with niglect for not being a "good girl".

Sabovee
Apr. 4, 2007, 08:58 AM
Seems like you're just giving up.
So one person (a young girl from the sounds of it) can't ride her - why aren't you trying to lease her out to someone more experienced?

And what kind of retirement facility would you be happy sending your horse to that doesn't have individual care or 'tend to boo boos'?

EqTrainer
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:01 AM
Apparently a lot of you who are posting are not aware of Gigi's history.

I would suggest you do some searches on her name from last year and the year before if you'd like to know why it's probably more appropriate for Gigi to be retired than do anything else. Her issues are not just physical.

Hang in there, YF.

Dalfan
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:12 AM
You know, horses don't USUALLY bolt unless they are scared or in pain. I guess there are exceptions, but your mare doesn't seem to fit into the "exception" category.

So since your last video of the mare, where it was clear there were physical issues, you have had her checked out?

What you are saying it is a behaviorial issue. Have you looked into sending her for RE-training with someone who is patient, kind and sensitive? Not someone who will just manhandle her into submission?

Sounds like you just want validation that you have done everything possible for her. I'm not sure, myself, based on your past posts.

Looking at the vid you posted, and seeing how stiff/off/short-strided she was on the flat, sending her to a H/J environment without making sure she could do the job physically, was just setting her up for failure, IMHO.

But, she is your horse and you will do what you will with her.

I just hope you are not going to just throw her out in a field and hope for the best. I would think visits to make sure she is getting the proper care and feeding would be in order and the responsible thing to do.

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:16 AM
Thanks EQTrainer. I shouldn't even discuss this stuff on the internet. She is not a horrible horse, quite the contrary.

Look, I posted this thread last night when I was very tired, and sad. The whole thing with Gigi has been rough.

Someday, if I get my own farm Gigi can come live with me. Until then, she gets to be a happy horse in a field. There are a ton of worse scenario's that could happen.

inca
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:21 AM
I am sure YF is going to make sure Gigi is well-cared for. And I think sometimes there comes a point with a difficult horse that you no longer have the energy to deal with the issues. Especially since YF has a much less complicated schoolmaster to ride now. As long as the horse is taken care of, I don't think it really matters that the horse is going to be retired.

Just makes me glad I sent my difficult horse to someone who specializes in starting horses and re-training problem horses when she was just being started under saddle. Otherwise, I think she could have very well ended up being retired at a young age also. By sending her to someone who is extremely competent in dealing with issues, she never learned any bad habits under saddle and at 7 is a joy to ride and train. Much easier to deal with problems (or prevent them from becoming problems under saddle!) from the get-go than try to solve them at age 6 or 7.

Good luck YF but do realize that Gigi is NOT doing anything other than being the horse that she is. It is not her fault this situation did not work out!

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:32 AM
I know inca, I know. If I could do this whole thing over again with Gigi, start again as a 3 yr old, she would be in professional training. But, she really does have melanoma, and I can't sink anymore money into training. I do wish that I had done that at the beginning with her. I didn't have any of the guidance that I do now.

inca
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:36 AM
I totally understand not putting a ton of training money into her now with the melanomas.

And unfortunately, some of life's lessons ARE learned the hard way. :-(

Hope the retirement farm is close so you can go check on her frequently! Especially keep an eye on her at first - it may take her a while to adjust to a different lifestyle.

sm
Apr. 4, 2007, 10:46 AM
I think you did what's truly best for the horse by retiring her.

I think you're upset, not for the horse, but because all your dreams and hopes for Gigi "died" with the decision to retire her.

You did a good thing!! Someday you'll know it in your heart, even if right now you feel a sense of great loss.

EqTrainer
Apr. 4, 2007, 10:57 AM
YF, you ARE doing the right thing. In Gigi's situation you can NEVER know exactly why she does the things she does, there are simply too many variables due to her disease. This is time to be grateful that you have the means to retire her. You both deserve some peace.

BarbB
Apr. 4, 2007, 11:02 AM
Young filly,
I can't imagine any horse that would not like to just be a horse. Retirement is a good thing!
I would join her if I could.

PMJ
Apr. 4, 2007, 11:10 AM
Sometimes things aren't meant to be no matter how much we want them. The best you can do is to provide for her and give the situation some peace. It does take time, especially when you have such a history, but eventually you realize that moving on was the best. Often what hurts the most isn't so much the moving on, but the realization that we have lost the dreams that we once had for that particular horse.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 4, 2007, 11:58 AM
sm said it well.

So, so sorry. Hugs. If you ever need to call and vent - feel free.

I hope things resolve for the best for everyone, and you start to feel better.

Dune
Apr. 4, 2007, 12:21 PM
I think it's best for ALL involved that she gets put out to pasture for a while. Personally I hope that it's for at least year or two, but I doubt it will be retirement.

slc2
Apr. 4, 2007, 12:24 PM
Youngfilly, my lord, you are such a drama queen, as if Gigi does these things to personally cause you emotional trauma, and you always come here for sympathy and you ALWAYS get it - you have a way of making it all someone else's doing...now this is the fault of the leaser who 'thought she could ride her'.

You KNEW when you decided to lease her that she has this habit as well as others that aren't too attractive and was VERY likely to try these tricks with who ever gets on her as she has been doing it for years. You proudly displayed pictures of her leaping and bucking in the past. So please, try to minimize the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

How about this. SELL HER. TAKE A LOSS ON HER. You should have done it years ago. You're still trying to get some money out of her by leasing her - I can tell you, I've heard some wild things on this bb but THIS really takes the cake. HOW CAN YOU do that to someone? You KNOW this mare has these bad habits! And to let a HUNT SEAT rider take her, who isn't going to be riding her step by step as she would be by a dressage rider, my GOD what a recipe for disaster!

News flash. Horses bolt all the time without having any pain or confusion - statements to the contrary are simply WRONG. This horse has a history of bucking and can be very difficult, it is quite spoiled and a strong, tough horse mentally, and being ridden by a timid amateur for years, starting out being green and untrained, and having that sort of tough personality, the results are not exactly surprising.

The videos of the horse show a rider who is TERRIFIED of her, Youngfilly, who is riding her under alot of restraint, barely moving forward. It is not at all possible to determine, from that sort of video, that there is anything wrong with the horse that would cause pain that would cause bolting! NONE of you have any business even suggesting that the horse is in pain from viewing those videos! It never even moves forward in the video. It's like trying to evaluate lameness on an animal standing still! You can't!

And, news flash. horses, 99% of the time, bolt due to training issues, not pain. Occasionally, yes, it happens, but you can usually find a very, very obvious cause of the pain and a VERY obvious improvement when the pain is gone...horses are not at all mysterious or subtle about these things, and even the most inexperienced person can see what is going on when this happens...unless it goes on to the point where it becomes the horse's answer for everything to just bolt, he is going to quit when the pain goes away.

Youngfilly has NEVER gotten along with this horse, and she has been moaning about it dramatically here for ages, I think one of the first legendary posts was how hard she was to hand walk when she was laid up. Odette is a far more appropriate mount. She's older, quiet and schooled already.

Y'all SHOULD learn a good lesson from hearing this drama for months...DON'T GET A GREEN HORSE. Can the hubris, get an appropriate horse.

Gigi is NOT dying, for heaven's sake. She has melanomas, and perhaps, someday, she may be affected by them. She is a very healthy horse otherwise, and one that could be sold to a tough young uncoming pro for a REASONABLE sum and have many years of usefulness ahead of her. Melanomas, even very aggressive ones, as long as they are accessible, are usually removed successfully or simply ignored. Most likely, after a few come-to-Jesus moments with the right person, miss mare would be clocking around the local show rings for years to come.

While unsightly, unless they grow in the abdomen and cause problems with her gut, she is very unlikely to have any problems from them. We have had horses with multiple, even very ugly looking, melanomas survive for decades.

And even if they DID eventually cause her health problems, she isn't suffering from anything right now except that she needs some sense knocked into her and someone who can stop her shenanigans, sitting on her regularly.

If I'd known her when she was choosing her, I would have advised strongly not to get her, though most people are so ga-ga over 'the pretty horse' that they usually don't listen. She is not an appropriate mount for Youngfilly, and probably never will be.

So many people think they can work with a young horse...then when they take the plunge, they are in for a rude awakening. It is not a 'bad' horse nor an untrainable one by any means. It is an INAPPROPRIATE MATCH.

jester1113
Apr. 4, 2007, 12:45 PM
What slc said.

Sell her or turn out to pasture FOR GOOD. How many people is she going to hurt before you do?

At best, if you think she won't pass her behaviour along (monkey see monkey do), lease her as an ET mare.

hitchinmygetalong
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:26 PM
Well said, slc. Hopefully you won't get your hands slapped for being a meanie.

Why not sell the mare? Well, I'll tell you why. Ego. Right now Gigi has confirmed everything she has ever been accused of. No matter that it more than likely was the pilot who was in the wrong, not the plane.

If Gigi is sold to someone more capable of dealing with her, then the next thing that happens is YF's uncontrollable mare shows up strutting her stuff in a ring and it is pie in the face time for the former owner.

It's easier on the owner's ego to just tuck her away at a retirement facility and close the door, so to speak.

And to the OP: If you really did not want to hear anything other than "oh, I'm so sorry" then you should not have posted.

OnyxThePony
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:37 PM
Good grief, you have an overly emotional connection to a horse!
I know how sad it is to let one go, especially one you love to pieces. Been there, you bet. My sympathies there, sincerely.
But I hope you are also relieved and happy to do what you think is best for the horse!
Personally, I'd look to sell her. Young, green, possible problems down the road, but will fit in someone's barn. Even if as a pasture ornament.
Did you now it's a sign of disease to refuse to sell an animal b/c you believe there is no other 'right' home for her than yours?
Just something to think on, in case noone has ever spoken to you about it.

kkj
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:44 PM
Whoa.

I don't know all this history of bucking or rearing or bolting or whatever. Nor do I know the history causing the wrath of some of you. Anyway, granted any horse can buck, rear, bolt just because it can and not because of pain.

The horse looks off to me irregardless of not being in front of the leg, being unsteady in the contact, being ridden tentatively. Still I see unevenness and not just not tracking up. It could I suppose be attributed to the riding, however I recall the vet said "muscle soreness". Muscle soreness is a catch phrase like stone bruise. What I mean is it is often not the cause but a good easy diagnosis if you don't want to get something further investigated. Gigi still looks muscle sore months later, so what is up there?

YF I do not have a wrath for you. I think you love your horses. I think you want to do the right thing. I can understand not wanting to pay a ton of money diagnosing stuff on a horse with behavioral issues and bad melonoma. I think you should be commended for not selling her down the river. A lot of people would dump her. A lot of these horses do not end up shining for a new owner. They eventually end up at the meat man or somewhere else not so pretty.

slc Melonoma is usually not a problem, but it really can be. I would not buy a grey nor breed to a grey stallion. I know 3 horses who died fairly young because of melonoma. It can affect the juttaral pouch and make it hard for a horse to swallow or carry its head in the proper frame. I know a horse where it interfered with the lymph nodes and the horse had to be put down. I had a pony die from colic related to it and he had had surgery at 4 from melonoma. Every grey horse has melonoma even if you cannot outwardly see any tumors.

JCS
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:46 PM
You guys (SLC, Onyx, and hitch), the horse isn't healthy. She has what amounts to terminal cancer. Why on earth is it so wrong that her owner wants to retire her? WHY would it be better to sell her on down the road, so that when her melanomas finally catch up to her, it will be someone else's problem?

If this were a perfectly healthy horse with simple behavioral problems, I would sort of agree with you...but...all things considered, I think YF is doing the best she can. In fact, it would be WRONG to sell the horse, IMHO.

inca
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:47 PM
Did you now it's a sign of disease to refuse to sell an animal b/c you believe there is no other 'right' home for her than yours?


Oh dear, I may have a disease then! I don't feel that way about ALL of my horses (I have sold 4 and have one for sale that is probably going to get sold in the next month) but there is one mare I own that I could NEVER sell. She is quirky and I know no one but me would take the time to understand her and love her. She really needs to bond with her owner and build up trust over time. Good thing is she and I get along great and go places all the time. I ride her regularly and her training is coming along nicely.

Okay, back to the impending train wreck!

OnyxThePony
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:49 PM
You guys (SLC, Onyx, and hitch), the horse isn't healthy. She has what amounts to terminal cancer. Why on earth is it so wrong that her owner wants to retire her? WHY would it be better to sell her on down the road, so that when her melanomas finally catch up to her, it will be someone else's problem?

If this were a perfectly healthy horse with simple behavioral problems, I would sort of agree with you...but...all things considered, I think YF is doing the best she can. In fact, it would be WRONG to sell the horse, IMHO.

You can remove MY name form that list. I"m the one who said 'you should feel good about doing what is right for the horse'. If retirement is best, so be it. But hasn't the OP has gone on about financial issues? Or do I mistake that? You can only tell so much from a BB posting. So why not sell her as an agony aunt/parture puff/lawnmower??

JCS
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Good grief, you have an overly emotional connection to a horse!
...
Personally, I'd look to sell her. ...
Did you now it's a sign of disease to refuse to sell an animal b/c you believe there is no other 'right' home for her than yours?


Onyx, this is what I was responding to in your post...but, sorry if I misconstrued. You certainly didn't display the hostility of the other 2.
But I'm not sure if that disease reference was really called for... :confused:

sidepasser
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Well YF - all I can say is that she's YOUR horse and you are doing what YOU deem correct - giving her a retirement home, which is more than a lot of people would do..some send the horse down the road to auction.

I have yet to hear a horse say "I don't want to eat grass all day and loaf in the shade and swish flies with my buddies"..heck all of my gals would love to retire and do nothing all day except eat..They're horses and could care less about working..it's the owner's who project the "human" emotions on a horse..actually most horses, once they adjust to having a schedule that is primarily set by themselves as to when to graze, when to drink, when to loaf and sleep are pretty happy campers overall.

Let her be a retired pasture ornament if you can afford it. If not, then sell her with complete disclosure that she is wilful, strong, and has her own "ideas" about things as well as melanoma issues. I wouldn't try leasing her out again unless it was for free and the lessee signed an agreement to accept all liability and also a separate statement which detailed her "challenges" and only to a professional rider.

People get slammed for selling a problem horse, slammed for retiring a problem and slammed for sending one to auction..and I guess you might get slammed if you mention the "e" word as well..so do what you think is best and move on with your life. As long as Gigi has food/water/basic farrier/medical attention and shelter - she will be fine. Oh and in Fla. get some Freedom 45 and spot that stuff on to keep the mosquitos from toting her off.

I do know a person who could work with her and likely get her 'tude straightened out and she is down your way. You may know her - so PM me, she might take the horse on and she is well thought of and professional. I was going to send one of my guys to her, but found someone local in GA. instead. I know you don't want to spend any more money, but you might talk to her and work something out.

Take care,
sidepasser

OnyxThePony
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Oh dear, I may have a disease then! I don't feel that way about ALL of my horses (I have sold 4 and have one for sale that is probably going to get sold in the next month) but there is one mare I own that I could NEVER sell. She is quirky and I know no one but me would take the time to understand her and love her. She really needs to bond with her owner and build up trust over time. Good thing is she and I get along great and go places all the time. I ride her regularly and her training is coming along nicely.

Okay, back to the impending train wreck!


I"m sorry but I dont' think it's something to make fun of! You are not in the position to have to decide. This has to be very very hard for youngfilly. Plus I think it's cliche..but...'never say never'.
Plus, if you ahve already sold many, you know that you CAN. I dont' know youngfilly but all this emotional drainage (coming over a BB for some long time) over a horse that is clearly unsuited..well.. it just points one direction from what I can see.

OnyxThePony
Apr. 4, 2007, 01:58 PM
OK.. here I am again, third post in a very short while.
NO, I"m totally NOT writing any of this in any hostility.
Why post? Maybe someone will recognize something of themselves in here.
Yes, a disease. I"m sorry, but there are other health issues in humanity than broken legs, eh? I did have a friend who had this issue. Escalated pretty bad. Thankfully she did pull out of it. Plus having worked in rescue, you do see this type of thing more often than you'd ever think.
You just *mention* mental health and everybody goes all batty! I"m not saying yf HAS issues. I have no idea 'who' she is of course. It's just from what I see.. well maybe I can plant the seed that someone could help her out with the obvious anguish she's going through.
Maybe someone else sees themselves here.. in fact maybe every horsewoman sees a bit of themselves here... tough decisions.. but they dont' need to *suffer* this way!!

hitchinmygetalong
Apr. 4, 2007, 02:08 PM
You guys (SLC, Onyx, and hitch), the horse isn't healthy. She has what amounts to terminal cancer. Why on earth is it so wrong that her owner wants to retire her? WHY would it be better to sell her on down the road, so that when her melanomas finally catch up to her, it will be someone else's problem?

If this were a perfectly healthy horse with simple behavioral problems, I would sort of agree with you...but...all things considered, I think YF is doing the best she can. In fact, it would be WRONG to sell the horse, IMHO.

On Feb. 14 of this year, in the Giveaways Forum, YF posted this:


Misty, I totally understand what you are saying. The vets at UF *did* diagnose her as having malignant melanoma, and gave her a prognosis of 2+ years to live. She is at the year and a half mark, and I had her reevaluated. There was no tumor progression. I have been on the road with Odette, and will continue being on the road with Odette, for the near future. I want Gigi to have a good life. I want Gigi to be happy. I am not really interested in her being bred (although, if someone wants to take it on, I am not totally going to rule it out).

Doesn't sound like she is in any immediate danger.

Hey, if she wants to retire the horse, fine. That's just wonderful. Just don't make it sound like the mare is the problem. She (Gigi) can't defend herself here.

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 02:13 PM
Young Filly,

I wrote you in PM a while ago that in my opinion retirement for Gigi would be the best thing that ever happened to both of you. There are not many horses that are so athletic and so opinionated, but that combination makes them quite dangerous. Horses like that want to hack around on their terms, but if you ask them to do something on your terms, even to turn left at E - you might get an explosion. Those kind of horses are not for AA or Jr, but Pros have a limited time on their hands and even if a pro can ride a horse like that, they often choose not to, b/c it's more time consuming than a horse with out issues like that (and there are much more horses with out issues like that, that there is with them)

Some people enjoy having horses as riding pets, they don't ask much from them, they don't ride much, hack around or do a couple of circles in the arena, they take excellent care of horses and horses are really happy that they are not asked to do much, so they don't argue much either... so caretaker really feels great about themselves that this difficult horse is flourishing under their care ----> win/win situation for both. May be you can find somebody like that who would want to get Gigi from you for free?

Athlete has to have a heart and desire to train on regular bases and push themselves harder and harder on their jobs. Gigi doesn't have that, she is not a career woman - she is a homemaker --- which is totally fine, she just needs to find her niche. She's been telling everybody for a long time that she doesn't like her job and doesn't want to climb the "corporate ladder"

I hope that you'll feel better soon. You made a correct choice for this particular horse and for yourself.

tarnia
Apr. 4, 2007, 02:19 PM
I disagree with some of the earlier posts and am going to venture to say its OK TO BE ANGRY! Obviously so long as you don't take it out on the horse, but one of the documented stages of grieving is ANGER! YF, I don't know you and am sorry to say I don't know much of the story, but if I had a horse, afraid of or otherwise, that I loved, and had dreams for, and thought they were realistic dreams, only to have her diagnosed with a potentially terminal disease, I would be grieving as well. I have leased horses myself in the past and recommended friends/other students of the barn try the horse only to have them fall off and I feel HORRIBLE. And it's not even my horse! Sometimes I wish I could convince them if they'd just try and get along they'd have a good life as a ____. So I can empathize somewhat with what you're going through.

I got the impression that this was posted as part of YF's grieving. I could be wrong but I don't thinks he really wants anyone's opinion (although support is always nice :p but instead needed to vent. Quite frankly I'd rather her take out her anger this way than by neglecting or abusing the horse-not that you would YF, but I'm sure you take my point)

I DO think that if she has such documented behavioural issues, and comes across as dangerous (which she does to me) it's possibly irresponsible to sell/lease her, unless you can somehow be sure and have a written contact that the leasee/buyer understands what is at stake. In addition to the guilt you would feel, I imagine there could be a potential lawsuit, or at min bad reputation there.

Be angry. Grieve. It sucks. But I agree that it sounds like Gigi is making her opinion of being a riding horse very clear. Maybe she would get over it with good, extensive training but it doesn't sound like you have the resources for it. And i don't think selling her at this point is the answer either, though you can always revisit that. So since you do have the resources to retire her-I'm sure she will be very happy. I don't know, but if melanomas aren't hereditary and she doesn't actually have a hugely sour attitude naturally that you would be worried might be passed on, perhaps you could even breed her oneday. Or lease her out as a broodmare. For now, it sounds like you're doing the right think, and you both need time to cool off.

Don't be ashamed to be angry. This outlet for your anger doesn't harm anyone-esp not your horse. You're grieving. You need to grieve to be allowed to move past your grief.

Ok, that's a long post from someone you just wanted to say what I said in the first couple of sentences:p I ramble. Best wishes.

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 02:38 PM
I DO think that if she has such documented behavioural issues, and comes across as dangerous (which she does to me) it's possibly irresponsible to sell/lease her, unless you can somehow be sure and have a written contact that the leasee/buyer understands what is at stake. In addition to the guilt you would feel, I imagine there could be a potential lawsuit, or at min bad reputation there.

Agree - cut your losses now, situation always can get worse, not better. Dangerous horse is not a lap dog, act accordingly.

slc2
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:23 PM
dollars to donuts the horse would be FINE with a stronger rider, 9 times out of 10 they are. i bet all the local pros can ride this horse with very little problem, less problem if they had her to train for 6 mo.

YF is not 'a stronger rider'. the horse has her number, and has for years. the non progressing melanomas are a non issue, 80% of grey horses have this, it's just an excuse tlo get another horse, which is totally unneccessary anyway, because you're supposed to get an appropriate horse for yourself...if it's not appropriate - SELL IT! Take a loss, bite the bullet, full disclosure, let her go! let someone have her who can manage her. there are plenty of strong young pros who can. sell with full disclosure - melanomas, bucking and all.

let her go for god's sake! let her go to someone who can have fun with her. with the shtank took out of her, she could be a nice horse for someone for years. can yiour ego take that? it better...you're ALSO supposed to do what's best for the HORSE, too! if you died tomorrow, she's worth nothing to anyone, and would wind up in a very bad spot. she's better off with someone who can deal with her and turn her into a horse that has some value.

i recently had one that had been acting like this for YEARS...i deshtankified her and sent her back. it's just a matter of who wants to take it on, because at this point, it's a project.

i learned a long, long time ago that plenty of people can ride better than me, and plenty of people can have NO PROBLEM with a horse that's too much for me.

in fact, MOST people, outside this bulletin board, recognize that very simple concept. even top eventers and dressage riders realize this - but OH NO, not in the rarified atmosphere of the experts here, NO WAY! My god...LOL.

good grief, YF, the right person would go upside of Gigi once and she would never bolt or buck again. that's how it works. you, out of timidity and lack of strength and experience, have spoiled your 'darling'. i just had a little girl just like her at home, LOL!

there ain't a rider can't be throwed, there ain't a horse that can''t be rode...why YF has so much trouble with the concept is beyond me. maybe a little too much ego and emotion being given free rein.

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:25 PM
Thank you all for your support. I am not going to even bother trying to defend myself here. Is there any way I can delete the entire thread? Its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. :confused: No matter what I say or do, you all are just going to slam me. So, go ahead and slam me.

SGray
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:30 PM
an aside re melanoma - my first horse started getting them at about age 10, she died at age 27(unrelated to melanoma) - my pony began developing them at age 12, she is currently 23 and going strong

kkj
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:35 PM
Melanoma is hereditary. In fact every grey horse or pony gets it. If Gigi had a bay or chestnut foal, it would not have Melonoma. If she had a grey (I think about a 50/50 chance genetically) it would get melanoma. Some horses get it younger and worse than others. The predisposition to bad tumors or tumors in bad areas is genetic too.

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:43 PM
you all are just going to slam me. So, go ahead and slam me.

Hmmm, "all"????? I thought that most people's responses are supportive rather than "slamming". Take your grey glasses off and put on some pink ones ;) Update your "ignore list" if you need to.

Aggie4Bar
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:45 PM
Excuse me? What exactly makes a h/j rider riding her such a bad thing? Any individual riding in a half-seat is much more likely to come off a bucking horse than a rider sitting down and deep in the saddle. It's a matter of science, not a personal attack. The worse position you can be in when a horse starts bucking is leaning forward.

To YF:
There are a lot of super difficult horses in the show ring. The same attitude that makes them difficult often makes them fierce competitors. I wouldn't give up on the mare if I were you. But I would sell her to someone patient enough and strong enough to work through the behavioural problems and help her reach her potential. It's clear the two of you are a bad match, but she may be the perfect match for someone else. IMO, you should give her that chance.

kkj
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:46 PM
slc you are in rare form today.

First 100% of grey horse get melonoma. Sometimes the tumors cannot be see. But do an autopsy they are there. They were getting close to a vaccine at UC Davis, but lost funding I think. Usually the horse lives out its life with no problem. Sometimes they are deadly. I don't know anything about Gigis melonomas. I do know that some horses get a grim diagnosis at a fairly young age.

I agree this horse might be fine for a better rider (if she is indeed sound and I am not so sure of that. But in any case it could be something totally manageable.) However, there are a lot of horses that still buck, rear, bolt occassionally even with the best of riders. Didn't Salinero run off with Anky. Enough said there. You see more and more of the highly bred dressage horses that can be explosive from time to time even with the best of training.

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:49 PM
Didn't Salinero run off with Anky. Enough said there.

Yeah, but you have to be able to take the heat that Anky took from the world after that accident as well ;)

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 03:51 PM
Hmmm, I thought that most people's responses are supportive rather than "slamming". Take your grey glasses off and put on some pink ones ;) Update your "ignore list" if you need to.


Thanks :winkgrin: your right.

This poor horse is not to blame. Nor is she a rouge. I have made some mistakes here, and I freely admit that. Like for instance, me purchasing her as a 2yr old after being away from horses for 10 years and thinking I could take her on. That was very STUPID. I understand that. I didn't exactly have any good people to rely on either at that time. If I had to do this over again, I would never have bought her in the first place. It sure didn't help my riding at all trying to struggle with her.

Yes slc, I should have sold this horse a long time ago. I was over horsed. There, I said it. Are you happy now?

I wouldn't be opposed to selling her, but I honestly am not sure she has any real market value? I am afraid of her ending up in a field somewhere starved to death. Thats not me being all stars in the eyes about Gigi, thats a real concern of mine.

spacely
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:01 PM
Any individual riding in a half-seat is much more likely to come off a bucking horse than a rider sitting down and deep in the saddle. It's a matter of science, not a personal attack. The worse position you can be in when a horse starts bucking is leaning forward.


While I know that is is not good to be leaning forward while a horse is bucking, I don't think most dressage riders (at least at the level we are talking about) would be able to stay on either. Once again, SLC is talking out of her a$$ rather than her mouth. It is clear she does not know much, if anything, about h/j riders.

YF, the best thing for your mare is to retire her or sell her. It sounds like she did herself a favor. I've seen the videos. If someone let go of her face & got off her back, I think she'd be a lot happier.

Equibrit
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:11 PM
"Nor is she a rouge."

I'm thankful for that!

YF - THINK before setting your dainty little manicured fingers on the keyboard.

Janet
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:14 PM
Any individual riding in a half-seat is much more likely to come off a bucking horse than a rider sitting down and deep in the saddle. It's a matter of science, not a personal attack. The worse position you can be in when a horse starts bucking is leaning forward.
There was an article quite a few years ago (PH? Equus?) about riding a horse that bucks. They had interviews with reputable riders/trainrs form a variety of disciplines. I found it interesting that about half said they shorten their stirrups on a horse that is likely to buck and about half said they lengthen them. They were split on this even with riders from the same discipline. So I don't think there IS a "right" answer.

DMK
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:14 PM
Any individual riding in a half-seat is much more likely to come off a bucking horse than a rider sitting down and deep in the saddle. It's a matter of science, not a personal attack. The worse position you can be in when a horse starts bucking is leaning forward.

Yes, but what half baked idiot thinks that h/j riders ride exclusively in a forward seat 100% of the time? Oh right... slc. :rolleyes:

One wonders how the hell we ever manage to work with dirty stoppers or even manage to train green horses. Do you think we ride every horse the same way every time? Or even the same horse the same way every time? Honestly, if that didn't make slc sound like the bigger idiot, I'd be offended, but this was definitely a "consider the source" moment.

YF - whatever the back story on this horse, just remember that as far is she is concerned "retirement" is probably her idea of best career evah.

slc2
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:17 PM
YF, rather than learn something, you just write it off as 'slamming'. look, YF, it's a lesson everyone has to learn.

our horses NEVER stop teaching us lessons, as long as we have them. they NEVER stop teaching us, challenging us to be better people, humbling us, and making us pick ourselves up, pull ourselves together and do the right thing. you think dressage and horses is so you can RIDE? it has nothing to do with it. it is there to make us better human beings.

i don't want you to 'admit' to anything to 'make me happy'. I WANT YOU TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR HORSE AND DO RIGHT BY YOUR HORSE.

you want to keep the horse so it won't 'starve' but right now, it's 'starving' for proper training, and that makes it worthless. if something should happen to you right now, it for SURE would wind up 'in a field starving' or worse.

this is what i know about my horses. they count on me to make the right decisions for them so they can be marketable, valuable, at the drop of a hat, should something happen to me.

I could slip on a banana peel and fall over dead, and where would they be? i have asthma, and i know that i can walk into the barn and drop over dead any day, and what's going to become of them? they will be FINE if i maintain their training and make them desirable, valuable and keep their training up! and if i can't do it, i pay someone who can!

if you won't sell the horse, at least DO RIGHT by her, and don't put some hunter kid up on her so you can make a few bucks, for god's sake!

no one here has EVER 'slammed' you - all they have asked is that you TRY to think about being a responsible owner when yiou come in here and whine about how 'hard' everything is. heck, when you got your new horse, you whined about her too! she wasn't fancy enough for you! when mare was laid up and had to be hand walked, you came here and whined about having to hand walk her, you wanted to just flippin' turn her loose, so you didn't have to hand walk her, and of COURSE you had plenty of sympathisers here, that's why you post here!

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:28 PM
How much more responsible can I get!!!!!!! SLC, let me share some facts about my leasing her.

FACT: The horse went to a professional hunter jumper trainer for her working student.

FACT: I disclosed everything to the trainer, and the rider, health issues, riding issues etc. The rider test rode her and felt confident that she could ride her. This rider is not a child.

FACT: Trainer also thought this was going to work.

It was the perfect scenario. Gigi would have had someone loving on her and riding her doing a easy job doing the low level hunters. Look, I have really tried to do the right thing here. SLC, you really are missing one big point. THIS HORSE WILL PROBABLY NOT BE ALIVE WITHIN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS. I think its amazing that she is doing so well now. I am happy about that. But, I can't put her through any more training. Its crazy. Also, this horse is conformationally challenged as a dressage horse. She, even without the melanoma, would have found dressage pretty difficult.

CuriosoJorge
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:29 PM
I saw the video. I would be willing to bet that the mare would be a different animal if the rider got off her back and let go of her face.

What does that sound like? Oh, wait, a "HUNT SEAT rider"!!! My GOD what a recipe for disaster! ;)

SGray
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:31 PM
why do you give her less than five years to live?

Aggie4Bar
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:33 PM
Maybe this will give you some hope, YF: YouTube Video - Breathe (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw).

The rider is a local dressage rider and aspiring trainer with a knack for managing the difficult horses. The first half of the vid includes the misbehaviours. The second half of the vid shows the same horses and the results of her patience. All they really needed were boundaries and someone strong enough - and skilled enough - to call their bluffs.

Not every horse can be reformed enough for an ammy to ride and trust. But many can. I get the idea that you're mare is just a bully under saddle like those in the vid.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:34 PM
I like what tarnia had to say.

And I would like to add this:

We come on to this board for many different reasons. Sometimes you want advice, sometimes you want a laugh, sometimes you want to commiserate.

Sometimes you are just feeling upset, and you need to communicate that to others you think might understand. Even if the response is, "Hey, sh!t happens." When you are hoping for the additional rider: "But we know how that feels, and hope things get better."

I had something very similar happen to me on Off Course. I asked a question, in all sincerity, because I found myself in a situation where I felt I was unintentionally hurting other peoples' feelings. And the answer was, "There is no response, it is just one of those things and move on." And most people were very supportive, or offered up advice or useful points to ponder, or empathized. A few people were just downright hostile.

That was okay for me, because while I was upset about the situation, it was not something as upsetting as the situation in which Young Filly has found herself. I could read those posts and laugh, because they "spoke" for themselves. But clearly, from the tone of YF's post, she was genuinely upset, and this is a difficult time for her.

It's not just reading for comprehension, people. Sometimes it's reading for compassion. If you can offer advice, even if you feel it isn't what the OP wants to hear, do so - but can't you try and offer it up without hostility and accusations?

You don't always know the whole story. You don't always know if there are other issues or situations that contribute to why someone may be feeling in somewhat desperate straits.

I don't have the standing in the equine community, nor do I boast the experience, that a single suggestion from me (well, except to convince someone to give their horse peeps) should convince someone to change their course of action. So, many times I don't offer advice. Sometimes I do, and those with greater experience point out the faults, and we all benefit.

But I would hate to think that someone was genuinely upset about something, and I attacked them at a vulnerable time. That doesn't help anyone.

spacely
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:34 PM
What does that sound like? Oh, wait, a "HUNT SEAT rider"!!! My GOD what a recipe for disaster!

God forbid. If it's not happy going around in a 20 meter circle then it must be a recipe for disaster.:eek: :lol: :rolleyes:

AllWeatherGal
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:36 PM
Thank you all for your support. I am not going to even bother trying to defend myself here. Is there any way I can delete the entire thread? Its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. :confused: No matter what I say or do, you all are just going to slam me. So, go ahead and slam me.

YF ... it's April 4, 2007, and you're still asking if there's any way to delete threads?

Please ... take a look at your patterns of behavior. Maybe ask for some help from someone who likes you but is willing to be objective with you.

STOP posting late at night when you're sad/angry/frustrated/fed up ... PM or email the people you know understand your situation and sensitivities ... but please, for your own heart's sake, either stop before you post, or put on your flame suit before reading responses.

lizathenag
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:36 PM
There is always a risk of not getting support when you post on these boards.

Tincture of time can work wonders. Not that you asked, but I would turn her out for a year or so and then let someone who is not emotionally involved evaluate her. You might be surprised!

SGray
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:47 PM
Maybe this will give you some hope, YF: YouTube Video - Breathe (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw).

The rider is a local dressage rider and aspiring trainer with a knack for managing the difficult horses. The first half of the vid includes the misbehaviours. The second half of the vid shows the same horses and the results of her patience. All they really needed were boundaries and someone strong enough - and skilled enough - to call their bluffs.

Not every horse can be reformed enough for an ammy to ride and trust. But many can. I get the idea that you're mare is just a bully under saddle like those in the vid.

boy, that gal's got some stick'em

Mozart
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:52 PM
There is always a risk of not getting support when you post on these boards.

Tincture of time can work wonders. Not that you asked, but I would turn her out for a year or so and then let someone who is not emotionally involved evaluate her. You might be surprised!

I think this is really good advice. Assuming you still want her in your life (and I won't judge on that aspect, I too have had a horse that I have alternately felt I could never sell than feel that I just wanted to see the back side of... a mare too ..they can get under your skin, can't they?)

I don't know enough about melanomas to know how much of a role that may or may not play. But if you can afford to retire a 6 yr old horse, you can afford to give her a year off and re-evaluate the physical stuff in a year. If she gets a certificate of health and good soundness from a vet then invest in three months of training with someone who won't be intimidated. And don't go and watch other than the occasional visit for a carrot and a pat on the nose.

Strangely, I can stay objective with geldings but it can get personal with mares. I suppose that is both good and bad.

Coreene
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:54 PM
Oh for God's sake, it is YOU'RE, it is not YOUR.

Cowgirl
Apr. 4, 2007, 04:56 PM
In her video, YF's horse looked rein lame to me, not pain lame.

I personally think that a year of turnout will do this horse good. Teach it to be a horse again. If, at that point, she seems to be in good health and someone wants to take her on, it will likely require retraining from the ground up. A good cowboy would be my choice. It needs basic ground work and behavior work. Or someone could take it now and put it with a cowboy who has a pasture it can live in to learn to be a horse again and start working with it on retraining the basics and instilling some trust in a partnership with a rider. I honestly think there are too many behavioral issues now to put it with a dressage or hunter trainer. There are too many issues that these trainers won't have time to deal with.

edited to add that the reason I think she is rein lame and not pain lame is because her other horse is going a similar way (hind legs are blocked) and is becoming rein lame as well.

Bogey2
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:05 PM
STOP posting late at night when you're sad/angry/frustrated/fed up

or drunk:winkgrin:

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:13 PM
Oh for God's sake, it is YOU'RE, it is not YOUR.

You are (or you're or even your) offending me by using the God's name in vain.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:15 PM
can we start keeping a scorecard? I can't keep track of who's been offending whom and I'm losing track!

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:15 PM
STOP posting late at night when you're sad/angry/frustrated/fed up


or drunk:winkgrin:

or when you are trying to avoid doing your taxes :D
or after a phone conversation with a non paying client :D
or...

oh, we can create the whole new thread on that one ;)

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:18 PM
can we start keeping a scorecard? I can't keep track of who's been offending whom and I'm losing track!


I'm keeping track of how many people correct my spelling. Thats making me smile. :winkgrin: Can I get a penny for each one? I will be rich before I know it!

tarnia
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:26 PM
I would also add...if someone doesn't want to take your advice, that's up to them and potentially their problem. But learn when not to give it, and when to walk away. Some of these discussions tend to get a bit circular b/c ppl just keep saying their opinion over and over and over again :p The expression "beating a dead horse" comes to mind :p

Just a general comment.


I like what tarnia had to say.

And I would like to add this:

We come on to this board for many different reasons. Sometimes you want advice, sometimes you want a laugh, sometimes you want to commiserate.

Sometimes you are just feeling upset, and you need to communicate that to others you think might understand. Even if the response is, "Hey, sh!t happens." When you are hoping for the additional rider: "But we know how that feels, and hope things get better."

I had something very similar happen to me on Off Course. I asked a question, in all sincerity, because I found myself in a situation where I felt I was unintentionally hurting other peoples' feelings. And the answer was, "There is no response, it is just one of those things and move on." And most people were very supportive, or offered up advice or useful points to ponder, or empathized. A few people were just downright hostile.

That was okay for me, because while I was upset about the situation, it was not something as upsetting as the situation in which Young Filly has found herself. I could read those posts and laugh, because they "spoke" for themselves. But clearly, from the tone of YF's post, she was genuinely upset, and this is a difficult time for her.

It's not just reading for comprehension, people. Sometimes it's reading for compassion. If you can offer advice, even if you feel it isn't what the OP wants to hear, do so - but can't you try and offer it up without hostility and accusations?

You don't always know the whole story. You don't always know if there are other issues or situations that contribute to why someone may be feeling in somewhat desperate straits.

I don't have the standing in the equine community, nor do I boast the experience, that a single suggestion from me (well, except to convince someone to give their horse peeps) should convince someone to change their course of action. So, many times I don't offer advice. Sometimes I do, and those with greater experience point out the faults, and we all benefit.

But I would hate to think that someone was genuinely upset about something, and I attacked them at a vulnerable time. That doesn't help anyone.

tarnia
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:29 PM
I totally agree and IMHO a very good point.


There is always a risk of not getting support when you post on these boards.

Tincture of time can work wonders. Not that you asked, but I would turn her out for a year or so and then let someone who is not emotionally involved evaluate her. You might be surprised!

Mozart
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:35 PM
or when you are trying to avoid doing your taxes :D
or after a phone conversation with a non paying client :D
or...

oh, we can create the whole new thread on that one ;)

Or when you are bored at work and thinking about how much you would rather be on your horse.....

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:40 PM
Or when you are waiting, waiting for an incubation and you just don't want to look any more at tomorrow's lecture notes or you will go cross eyed.And thinking that you would rather be on your horse.

Of course, if you left now, you would be stuck in traffic, and the temp has dropped 35 degrees since yesterday.

Maybe I will look at those lecture notes.

Coreene
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:44 PM
You are (or you're or even your) offending me by using the God's name in vain.No, actually I think He would agree with me that correct spelling and punctuation are very important! :lol:

eclipse
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:45 PM
For crying out loud SLC, have you actually ever seen a hunter/jumper rider that just poses & only rides in 2 point 100% of the time......nope.....didn't think so! And, maybe just maybe, this horse does NOT want to be a dressage horse. I have actually seen some pretty rank dressage horses become mellow & happy as clams once they've reached a hunter/jumper barn (& vice versa). Dressage is not cut out for EVERY horse (just as jumping isn't for some either) & a good hunter/jumper rider could possibly do wonders for this mare. Gotta tell you, I've seen some pretty wild "come to Jesus" moments with a jumper rider & they were no where being bucked off (the dressage rider was!):lol:

Dixon
Apr. 4, 2007, 05:55 PM
YoungFilly, I'm heartened to hear of an owner that cares enough about her horse to know when to stop forcing issues that may not be fixable, but who doesn't simply sell or otherwise unload the horse, making it possible for the horse to end up in unsavory hands. Kudos to you for recognizing that buying a horse is a long-term commitment, including when things don't go as planned.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 4, 2007, 06:03 PM
No, actually I think He would agree with me that correct spelling and punctuation is very important! :lol:

Uh oh. No wonder I feel as if He/She hasn't been very pleased with me lately...then why did He/She make me dyslexic?!

mp
Apr. 4, 2007, 06:04 PM
No, actually I think He would agree with me that correct spelling and punctuation is very important! :lol:


He???????

Now I'm offended. :lol:

PS -- should be "correct spelling and punctuation are very important." ;)

Brady'smom
Apr. 4, 2007, 06:17 PM
Wow.

I was here, read every post.

Sometimes, I find it's better to say nothing at all if I can't make it constructive in some way.

FatDinah
Apr. 4, 2007, 06:35 PM
Remember how Gigi's melanoma "forced" YF to go to Europe and buy Odette?

Anybody want to bet we'll soon be reading a post about her search for her fabulous new GP prospect. With all that sturm und drang.

Coreene
Apr. 4, 2007, 06:47 PM
He???????

Now I'm offended. :lol:

PS -- should be "correct spelling and punctuation are very important." ;)You are absolutely right and I went back and corrected it. It was so hard to have a coherent thought when I was laughing hysterically. :lol:

Capt.Jack'sGirl
Apr. 4, 2007, 07:18 PM
dollars to donuts the horse would be FINE with a stronger rider, 9 times out of 10 they are. i bet all the local pros can ride this horse with very little problem, less problem if they had her to train for 6 mo.

Seeing as Gigi was boarded at a barn with constant access to several very talented and experienced trainers, one of whom did ride her for a while, and chose not to continue because she felt the mare was too dangerous, I think your comment is just slightly inaccurate.

As someone who knows the mare, I also think she is dangerous. Not to bring up the mental health button again, but if she were a human, we would say she was bipolar. She can be very sweet and docile, which just makes it seem even more of a shame when she becomes agressive and unmanageable.

Having said that, I don't think it's her fault, of YF's fault. Some of Gigi's full siblings have had similar (if not identical) issues, and these horses were receiving professional training. There's a strain of agression in her family that apparently can not be trained out. IMHO, retiring her is not only a wonderful decision for the mare, but also for YF, who will not have to worry about Gig's well being/happiness, or about her endangering any leasee/buyer down the road. What on earth can be wrong with trying to find the best possible solution?

And to all the people who are slamming YF for being melodramatic, think about that one special horse (we've all had one) and how you would feel if you were in this position with that horse. Would you be perfectly composed all the time? I seriously doubt any of us would.

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 07:34 PM
Well, thank you Capt.Jack'sGirl. I think you pretty much summed it up correctly. I really, really want this thread to end.

egontoast
Apr. 4, 2007, 08:50 PM
What is her breeding?

YF, you know how some people like to rant. They live for it. Why be the straight man all the time?

Is it the liquor talkin?

hitchinmygetalong
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:14 PM
Seeing as Gigi was boarded at a barn with constant access to several very talented and experienced trainers, one of whom did ride her for a while, and chose not to continue because she felt the mare was too dangerous, I think your comment is just slightly inaccurate.

As someone who knows the mare, I also think she is dangerous. Not to bring up the mental health button again, but if she were a human, we would say she was bipolar. She can be very sweet and docile, which just makes it seem even more of a shame when she becomes agressive and unmanageable.

Having said that, I don't think it's her fault, of YF's fault. Some of Gigi's full siblings have had similar (if not identical) issues, and these horses were receiving professional training. There's a strain of agression in her family that apparently can not be trained out. IMHO, retiring her is not only a wonderful decision for the mare, but also for YF, who will not have to worry about Gig's well being/happiness, or about her endangering any leasee/buyer down the road. What on earth can be wrong with trying to find the best possible solution?

And to all the people who are slamming YF for being melodramatic, think about that one special horse (we've all had one) and how you would feel if you were in this position with that horse. Would you be perfectly composed all the time? I seriously doubt any of us would.

Well, now that we have this little bit of inside information, it makes YF's giveaway free lease ad even more suspect:


6 years old, 16.3 hand, big bodied Dutch mare, grey. Looking to place in a long term lease to approved home. My show schedule is making it difficult to keep her in work. Very sweet, easy keeper who is currently barefoot, and has been worked for 1 year barefoot without issues. Needs an intermediate rider. This horse is still in training currently.

Working on Training Level and First Level movements. Has been started over fences and is completely sound for jumping, but not that much experience. The horse enjoys jumping, but I am a dressage rider, so I didn't do it much with her.

This big bold mare is a fun ride for the right person. She really would most likely excel over fences with the right rider.

I am glad the young person who was leasing her was not hurt.

AllWeatherGal
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:43 PM
Well, thank you Capt.Jack'sGirl. I think you pretty much summed it up correctly. I really, really want this thread to end.

YF ... I can't even count the number of threads you've started that have this desire expressed somewhere, not nearly the end.

What's up with that?

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:55 PM
YF ... I can't even count the number of threads you've started that have this desire expressed somewhere, not nearly the end.

What's up with that?

Look guys, I really want this thread to end. You don't know me from boo. Trust me that I have tried a lot to get this horse going. I have had a rough road with her, medical and physical. I don't want to talk about this anymore. Lets just say that she is going to a retirement facility, and thats that. Enough. This has been a what.... an almost 4 year journey with this horse (which, I stupidly chronicled on this site). :( Please guys, let me off the hook on this one.

CaptJacksGirl had a lot of good intentions in her post. Don't drag her into this. She does know this horse. She just doesn't know you all. ;)

Come on, I was tired, and frustrated when I started this post. There is no way for me to close it (outside from bugging Erin), or stop the train from rolling.

I am doing the right thing here. You guys missed that point. There is nothing I can do to make some of you realize that.

If Gigi had extraordinary movement, her health not questionable, her antics would have been dealt with. She was given the cards she was given. So, that means no one is really going to try and deal with her shit. And, she does have the medical issues going on, which put her further in the hole. Come on guys, just let this die.

inca
Apr. 4, 2007, 09:58 PM
Psssssssssssttttt....YF the thread will die more quickly if YOU QUIT POSTING ON IT. Every time you come on here and post, people feel the need to respond. Just pretend the thread doesn't exist and it will eventually die a natural death.

(And get into the habit of reading your posts about 3 times before hitting the "submit" button and make sure it's something you REALLY want to post!)

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
Psssssssssssttttt....YF the thread will die more quickly if YOU QUIT POSTING ON IT. Every time you come on here and post, people feel the need to respond. Just pretend the thread doesn't exist and it will eventually die a natural death.

(And get into the habit of reading your posts about 3 times before hitting the "submit" button and make sure it's something you REALLY want to post!)


Yes, I know, and I will. :(

Ride On
Apr. 4, 2007, 10:40 PM
YF, I am sorry . You can only do so much for these critters. Giving her a retirement home is fine for her. Really it is. She is a lot of horse and not the right horse for just anyone. You had your belief in her and stuck it out. Others may not have that belief system.

Hugs to you.

YoungFilly
Apr. 4, 2007, 11:16 PM
I'm happy that my real friends are coming out and giving me support. The people who actually know me. Thank you Ride On. :sadsmile:

AllWeatherGal
Apr. 4, 2007, 11:38 PM
I double-dog dare ya not to reply ;)

Really, YF ... it's great that you have friends, but for the rest of us ... we're just regular gals trying to get by, just like you.

JAGold
Apr. 5, 2007, 12:30 AM
"Real friends" are there to do just that -- support you. As for the rest of us, well, we just have opinions. If you don't like 'em, don't post. Or don't read them. Whatever floats your boat.

Personally, I'm with those who say that Gigi was just being a horse. She does exactly what her natural instincts and past training tell her to do. Can't blame her for that, and can't expect anything different. Anthropomorphizing won't get you anywhere but frustrated. She is a horse, not a person, and the sooner you start treating her like one and expecting her to act like one, the less hurt you will be. --Jess

BLBGP
Apr. 5, 2007, 12:40 AM
If the horse is that dangerous and that sick, why not just humanely euthanize her now and put her out of her physical and mental misery?

I'm personally confused as to why a six year old horse - basically a baby with little training - is considered unrehabilitatable, but I am not there to see her. To me, from afar, a six year old horse who is almost always sweet but sometimes bolts is, well, a six year old horse.

If you can't delete, then I recommend that you at least edit. The horse doesn't know she's being bad. Saying she doesn't "deserve" retirement is juvenile, petty and, frankly, very sad. And probably a big reason you're getting so much negative reaction to this thread.

kaluha2
Apr. 5, 2007, 04:54 AM
Young Filly:

I understand that your mare is a DWB. I am curious though to know who her sire and dame are.

Also, I would like to see the video of her that everyone is talking about. Can you direct me to that. Thanks

Bogey2
Apr. 5, 2007, 05:42 AM
I'm happy that my real friends are coming out and giving me support

Real friends have discussions on the phone, in person...over dinner. Not on a BB where you think we are real.:lol:
Honestly, don't take this stuff to the boards, you must know by now what will happen. When I have a real life issue, I go to those who know me in real life.

I need a cup of tea:yes:

PiedPiper
Apr. 5, 2007, 07:08 AM
No, actually I think He would agree with me that correct spelling and punctuation are very important! :lol:

I second this! :lol: :lol:

kkj
Apr. 5, 2007, 08:06 AM
Captjacksgirl,

I don't think it is fair to call her mentally compromised or bipolar. Or to state that it is a genetic thing in her family. You see there are more and more dressage horses bred today that are really not bred for anyone but a confident good rider or a good pro. The siblings may have been getting pro training but was it with an appropriate pro? Gigi was started by YF who had a 10 year hiatus from riding right?

Well my mare would have probably killed YF by now. I have started over 25 horses myself and am a very good rider. Still with the horse I have now, I sent her out for 6 months of training at a barn that is exceptional with young high quality dressage horses. They rode her twice a day in little stints to get anywhere with her. What she has going for her is she is a legit Grand Prix prospect and has excellent conformation, movement and breeding. She does take a good ride and probably never will be suitable for an "intermediate" rider. She has never had bad handling or gotten away with anything. She is far along in her training (solid 2nd level at coming 5) but still she will occasionally leap, spook, do a 180, capriole, etc. She has never unloaded or run off with me but would have with someone who is not as strong a rider.

The problem is that most buyers/horse owners are not pros. Also, sometimes the horse gets the pro disposition without the pro gaits or potential. These horses are harder to place. Plus if the horse does not have the best training from the get go or has bad experiences that makes everything that much harder. I am sure there are pros out there who could straighten out Gigi, (unless she is truly one in a million horses that really are fruit loops). However, a lot of pros probably could not fix her. Not all pros are good with problem horses, hot horses, mares etc etc. Plus as I said before as she has medical issues, not world beater gaits or great FEI potential, those pros who could ride her well would want to be well paid for doing so.

YF does have a dilemna here. She has already put a ton of $$ into a horse that does not have a huge future. She could send her to an appropriate pro to straighen out and sell, but I don't think it would work out in her favor financially. She could try to sell her on her own as is, but there is a very good chance the horse will end up in a bad future because of her limitations and issues. She could try to lease her and maintain control of her fate, but the liability is high and the chances of finding an appropriate leasee slim. If she were my horse I don't think I would give up on placing her in the right place yet. However, I don't know all that YF has gone through. At some point, I too would pony up the cash to send her to retirement. It is going to be cheaper in the long run than some of the other options, YF will be able to sleep at night knowing she did not sell the horse down the river, and Gigi will be as happy as a clam living out in a pasture doing no human directed work whatsoever.

Ride On
Apr. 5, 2007, 08:40 AM
I know YF and she is a young bright woman with a lot of determination. She has had dreams with this horse and they have fallen through. We have all gone through this . I think that YF may be reaching out and although we are not her "friends" there does not need to be negative input. This woman is trying to do the right thing. I know the horse and she has always been a handful. I gave YF a lot of credit to keep trying.

As we move through our lives we obtain wisdom but we learn through our mistakes, in the process of learning their is pain and joy sometimes both at the same time. I wish YF the wisdom to find peace with her decision.

Speedy
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:09 AM
I haven't read the entire thread, but why not give the horse to a promising young rider who is working under one of the BNTs? Many young riders don't have the funds to buy a horse like Gigi, but would be thrilled to have one and would not be daunted by the prospect of having to work through her issues. If they were successful, they could sell the horse on to a good home or keep her and compete her - and if they weren't, they could send the horse back to YF, who is planning to retire the horse anyway. Before YF takes on the financial burden of supporting her retirement, she might as well give something else a try.

I only think of this because there are working students at my own barn who fit in this category. There may be a good fit for this horse out there.

dressage is for lovers
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:12 AM
Young Filly,

I don't know you, but I think you are doing the right thing. Reevaluate her in a year or so, and maybe try free leasing her out again then.

Gigi will be much happier sunbathing and eating grass than lugging around some silly human that makes her run around in circles! :)

Capt.Jack'sGirl
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:20 AM
Captjacksgirl,

I don't think it is fair to call her mentally compromised or bipolar. Or to state that it is a genetic thing in her family. You see there are more and more dressage horses bred today that are really not bred for anyone but a confident good rider or a good pro. The siblings may have been getting pro training but was it with an appropriate pro? Gigi was started by YF who had a 10 year hiatus from riding right?


I've worked very closely with the mare, and I think it's more than fair... I have myself started young horses, and I understand that some horses simply need a rider with more strenght/experience than others... People seem to think that all the horse does is occasionally bolt, but she has been extremely aggressive, both under saddle and on the ground, to the point where people felt too uncomfortable to handle her. This behavior, which would happen without any apparent catalyst, is why I say I believe she has some sort of imbalance.

The trainer who had the sibling I am most familiar with is an international level rider, and the pro who was riding Gigi has ridden grand prix and earned a gold medal. So I just don't believe that it is a question of training.

Lisa Cook
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:40 AM
I've worked very closely with the mare, and I think it's more than fair... I have myself started young horses, and I understand that some horses simply need a rider with more strenght/experience than others... People seem to think that all the horse does is occasionally bolt, but she has been extremely aggressive, both under saddle and on the ground, to the point where people felt too uncomfortable to handle her. This behavior, which would happen without any apparent catalyst, is why I say I believe she has some sort of imbalance.

The trainer who had the sibling I am most familiar with is an international level rider, and the pro who was riding Gigi has ridden grand prix and earned a gold medal. So I just don't believe that it is a question of training.

If that is an accurate description of the mare, then I think the ad that YF posted on the giveaways section was HIGHLY irresponsible and EXTREMELY misleading. :no: YF - how could you post that ad in good conscience?!

kkj
Apr. 5, 2007, 11:08 AM
I am with Lisa Cook here. Something just doesn't seem right to me. If Gigi is as described by Capt.Jack'sGirl then how could anyone try to lease her to an intermediate rider? If a Gold Medalist trainer thought she was nuts? Sounds very irresponsible and laden with a high liability to me, especially since the leasee did indeed get dumped. Something just isn't right about this whole story.

kaluha2
Apr. 5, 2007, 11:16 AM
Capt Jack'sGirl:

Since you seem to be in the know----what is this mare' bloodline please? I believe you stated that she is like this because of her bloodline.

I am very curious to know what sire and dam produce such loonies. Thanks

slc2
Apr. 5, 2007, 12:21 PM
I will never, ever, understand why this situation is any different from the thousands of other amateurs who get an inappropriate horse, and why it cannot be resolved in the rider's and horse's best interests, as the majority of these situations are.

There is nothing about this mare's bloodlines that causes her to behave as she does. Any horse, of any breed, would behave thus if raised from the age of two by someone with little experience. I just had a horse like this to fix up, some can get fixed up to the point where a less strong owner can deal with them, and some can't.

The blood line has nothing to do with it - that's a cop out. The bloodlines this mare is from have produced just as many fine, cooperative animals, as all bloodlines do. All bloodlines have produced some difficult animals, and all bloodlines have produced some problem animals. To hide behind the blood line is to make excuses for oneself. It has nothing to do with it. An experienced, skilled trainer can take any horse and make it be a pleasant, cooperative animal. I've seen it a million times. Training counts for a lot - the experience of the trainer is the key.

I was told here that Junior offspring were difficult, ,and yoiu can hear, at any given time, that nearly ANY sire has 'difficult' offspring. Fact is, 99% of the difficulty is caused by training or lack thereof. And, fact is, I spoke with the trainer of Junior, who told me his was ANYTHING BUT difficult, and that's from people who had him for years. The gossipers told me 'he had to be worked SEVERAL TIMES A DAY!' oh my -- he had to be worked several times a day because like many quiet horses, he needed more legging up. 'Going wild in the ring', yeah, like just about every young stallion does now and again when a mare gets under his nose.

And in addition, I found a number of very nice offspring of his. No one sire ALWAYS sires 'amateur horses' and no one sire ALWAYS sires 'difficult horses'. I recently tried a Jazz baby, his have a 'reputation' for hot but in fact they vary quite alot - some are hot, some are not. A friend of mine has TWO - one is hot, one is not.

In fact, 'difficulty' is in the eye of the beholder, and depends on who's looking at it. I look at Gigi and see nothing more than a quiet, fairly smart and somewhat lazy youngster who needs some regular work and a little discipline. Many professional trainers would laugh at her efforts to misbehave and smack her down once and for all, and that'd be the end of it. What is 'bad' to one rider is 'high couraged' to another or 'sensitive'. One that's 'nuts' to one rider is just 'great work ethic and forward' to another. Most youngsters bolt, rear, buck and play up. That's normal for a young horse. It's not anything mysterious or due to 'pain and confusion'. They just bolt. That's what youngsters do. The key is that yiou make them stop it. My young warmblood bolted once, I told my trainer 'I can't stop him' and she said 'OH YES you can - now do it!' And that was the end of that.

The fact that the horse is bad on the ground and in the saddle is typical. The horse has simply not been trained properly. I have seen YF ride. She is extremely tentative and timid with this mare, she is petrified the whole time she's around her. The mare has gotten the upper hand, she is spoiled and pushy.

This is what happens, I have seen it many times, and it happens AT LEAST once to nearly every amateur, that they get an inappropriate horse.

ANY bloodline, ANY animal, would do the same. A Paint, a Shetland Pony, a Thoroughbred, a Warmblood - ANY breed. NO horse is going to be good forever in this situation. I've seen some of the quietest, best trained animals become spoiled, argumentative, stubborn brats in a month or less. it all depends on how they are handled.

A 2 yr old is far less likely to be good in this sort of situation than an older horse. This is what happens to everyone, at least once, in their riding career.

Kathy Johnson
Apr. 5, 2007, 12:57 PM
I am agreeing with slc that this is fairly common situation, when someone is forced to come to terms with their Dreamhorse turned Nightmare. I am also going to agree with YF that turning the horse the out for a year or more is the perfect solution. Maybe permanent retirement, maybe not, it's too soon to say, and doesn't matter right now. Youngfilly should feel good that she is taking the right action and making the right decision. It gives the horse time to recover mentally and physically and it gives the owner time and distance to deal with the grief and loss.

It is the pain I feel coming from YF that concerns me. Just because many horseowners have been in this place doesn't make it less painful. It is heartbreaking. I have helped too many people come to terms with and find a place for their inappropriate horses. As a pro, I've had several horses that just would not work for me.

I think YF has examined all options. Trying a lease was a good thought. The only person more qualified to ride such a horse than an intermediate h/j rider would be an intermediate eventer. I don't think the horse was misrepresented in the ad. She's just a really hard horse to find the right match for, if there is one.

(Just as an aside, one of the best riders of bucking horses I ever saw was a GP jumper rider. He would crank up his stirrups, lean forward, get up off the horse's back, and ride the bucks in two point. Bit by bit, he would get them galloping forward. I can't ride a buck that way, but he could ride way more buck than I could. So, 50/50 is pretty good odds. Pick your poison.)


She is perfectly sound. I have had vets look at her. Its her personality thats doing her in.

Youngfilly, don't blame the horse. Don't blame yourself. It just didn't work. Allow yourself time to grieve and be upset, but remember a horse is a horse. They do these things, not to hurt you, offend you, or undermine your plans for them. They do them because they are horses. She does not have a personality. She is not a person. She is a special needs horse. No matter what her issues, she should not be allowed to hurt a person, so letting her go is the right thing.

If you need time to retire her in order to make yourself feel good about the situation, then do whatever you need to do to feel better about a bad situation. It's a bad situation, not a bad horse, not a bad owner.

I think it's really good that you care that much for her to be so upset. You have sunk tons of time, expenses, veterinary care, training, hopes, prayers and expectations on this horse. We call these sunk costs. You will not recover them. I have seen owners go on for years and years trying to recover their sunk costs and to make the horse right. I applaud your decision to let go.

YankeeLawyer
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:33 PM
I've worked very closely with the mare, and I think it's more than fair... I have myself started young horses, and I understand that some horses simply need a rider with more strenght/experience than others... People seem to think that all the horse does is occasionally bolt, but she has been extremely aggressive, both under saddle and on the ground, to the point where people felt too uncomfortable to handle her. This behavior, which would happen without any apparent catalyst, is why I say I believe she has some sort of imbalance.

The trainer who had the sibling I am most familiar with is an international level rider, and the pro who was riding Gigi has ridden grand prix and earned a gold medal. So I just don't believe that it is a question of training.

Could her issues be hormonal? It sounds like she might have cysts or something (not to mention the melanomas might be affecting her temperament).

Mozart
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:40 PM
Could her issues be hormonal? It sounds like she might have cysts or something (not to mention the melanomas might be affecting her temperament).

Interesting thought. Has anyone ever suggested spaying the mare? I would not think she is a breeding candidate and even as an ET recipient mare, she would need to be at least co-operative to work with.

Can't hurt, might help. :confused:

Speedy
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:50 PM
Interesting thought. Has anyone ever suggested spaying the mare? I would not think she is a breeding candidate and even as an ET recipient mare, she would need to be at least co-operative to work with.

Can't hurt, might help. :confused:

My mare was spayed before I got her, when her breeder determined that regumate wasn't having the desired effect, and it did NOT improve on her attitude. It was done when she was very young, too, around 2 years, far younger than Gigi is now. This has prevented me from breeding a beautiful horse that has a lot to offer the world (besides her attitude of course :) ). This is an extreme measure that most reputable vets will discourage...sometimes a horse just has an attitude and is a pro horse (even a certain type of pro), not an amateur horse. This would also affect YF's ability to sell her if she ever decides she wants to do that.

I'm not saying don't treat her for cysts, or whatever, if she has something like that, I am just saying don't spay her, you are just further limiting her options.

kelliope
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:56 PM
I just wanted to add that I know someone who had a difficult mare. They placed a marble :eek: in her uterus. I guess kind of like an IUD??? Not too sure, but it seems to work!

Have to say we have had a field day with that one! It makes me wonder if that is where the term "Lost her marble" came from!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited to add: the above statement is not saying that I think that is what YF should do...I have a lot of sympathy for YF in her journey with GiGi. YF, obviously I don't know all the ins and outs of this situation, but from what I have read I think that you are quite kind to retire her and not sell her off to parts unknown (with an unstable temperment and therefore unknown future). It takes guts to do that and some financial rescources. I wish you luck and GiGi a happy and healthy retirement.

Auventera Two
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:59 PM
YF -

I'm so sorry for what you're going through with Gigi. With the cancer, and the training issues, retiring her may just be the best thing. Don't be too hard on yourself, and I wish you luck in any decision you make with her. :)

My mother owns a Hano gelding, who is a complete lemon. Mentally and physically. He's a really sweet boy but under saddle he has no brain. He is the most unstable, untrustworthy horse you could imagine. He ties up over nothing, he's been examined over and again by vets and the only thing we can get down to is that he's a mental basket case. She decided it just wasn't worth it to ride him or keep pursuing any kind of training for him. So he's about 10 years old or so now and is completely retired, and will be the rest of his life. The worst fall I ever took from a horse was from him and we seriously thought it was the end of the trail for me. I quit riding for 2 years after the incident and when I started again, I was gripped with fear. I found out in a split second how close you can come to death. I was seeing a doctor and a chiro for a full year after the fall, trying to recover. We decided it's just NOT worth it with this horse.

Out of desperation, I posted a message on the breeders forum asking about his breeding. I got 2 PMs from two different people saying they had horses out of that same stallion who was exactly like our gelding. Sometimes these kinds of problems truly are genetic. You cannot train out what bad genes put in.

So believe me, you have my full sympathies. People can talk the talk, but unless they've dealt with such a horse, they just don't know the mental anguish you go through trying to decide what to do with that horse. Just like people, some horses are so mentally and physically complicated that trying to deal with them every day is downright painful.

tractor queen
Apr. 5, 2007, 01:59 PM
I had to do the same with my mare...incredibly talented, but too much of a pain in the A** to make riding her fun anymore. She is now a pasture ornament.

It was a tough decision, but one I have not regretted.

Life is too short...get on with it & don't look back!

The positive side is I am a MUCH better rider, and have much more appreciation for cooperative equines.

Valentina_32926
Apr. 5, 2007, 02:01 PM
I know YF and she is a young bright woman with a lot of determination. She has had dreams with this horse and they have fallen through. We have all gone through this . I think that YF may be reaching out and although we are not her "friends" there does not need to be negative input. This woman is trying to do the right thing. I know the horse and she has always been a handful. I gave YF a lot of credit to keep trying.


I agree!

Auventera Two
Apr. 5, 2007, 02:17 PM
I'm personally confused as to why a six year old horse - basically a baby with little training - is considered unrehabilitatable, but I am not there to see her. To me, from afar, a six year old horse who is almost always sweet but sometimes bolts is, well, a six year old horse.

I think the issue has to do with her having terminal cancer and having such a short life expectancy as it is.

SGray
Apr. 5, 2007, 02:21 PM
melanoma in people will often kill within two years
melanoma in horses will often kill within two decades

vxf111
Apr. 5, 2007, 03:37 PM
Good lord,

I don't even read this forum but this post kept popping up.

Gigi is YoungFilly's horse to do with as she likes. I think turning her out sounds like a fine idea. It's not like YF is suggesting doing something with Gigi that will be physically dangerous for herself or the mare-- she's considering retiring her. I think that's her peroggative!

If I had a stellar competition horse and up and decided to retire it, for whatever reason, why would that really be so bad? Horses don't know they are missing out on a career. As long as they're well cared for (and I tend to believe that's what YF is contemplating), they're happy. Does it affect their resale value, sure? But can we really get on owners about things they do that affect their horse's resale value? My pony is currently doing h/j low stuff with me but I bet he'd have a lot more value as a child's dressage pony. Does that mean I am somehow doing wrong by him by using him in a way that doesn't help him reach full resale value?!

Honestly, whether YF made mistakes with Gigi in the past is irrelevant. Right now she's decided to turn her out. I don't really think, given the melanomas and difficulty of the horse, that it's such a bad idea. So she's a pasture puff? So what! The next Rox Dene might be standing in someone's yard as a trail horse. Oh well! As long as the horse is cared for and happy, what's the big deal!

And maybe, just maybe turnout will help Gigi mature and mellow. I haven't read YF's prior posts in detail, but that seems possible. And in one year, Gigi won't really be in much of a different position than she's in now.

You would think by some of the reactions that YF was talking about taking Gigi to auction. Could Gigi have a more productive future than a pasture pet. Maybe. Does that really matter?

SGray
Apr. 5, 2007, 03:48 PM
I just don't want people that don't have any experience with it to see "melanoma" and think "oh my god, my horse is going to die any moment" or to never look at a grey horse "because it will get melanomas and die"

unless you ardently wish for all your horses to live to 30, 35, 40, melanomas should not worry you

Pony Fixer
Apr. 5, 2007, 05:08 PM
I just don't want people that don't have any experience with it to see "melanoma" and think "oh my god, my horse is going to die any moment" or to never look at a grey horse "because it will get melanomas and die"

unless you ardently wish for all your horses to live to 30, 35, 40, melanomas should not worry you

Thank you, SGray. I haven't had time to post. I have seen horses riddled with melanoma to the point where all the lymph nodes are enlarged, they have it in the guttural pouches, all over the anus--none dead. I know they *can* eventually die from it, but c'mon they're horses and much more likely to die from something less exciting before the melanoma has a chance to do so. And I've yet to see a grey horse that actually, truly, unequivocally HAS died from it.

That being said, I had a horse that was a real bugger. One day fantastic, rideable, competitive, athletic, the heavens open and the angels sang. The next day John Williams would not sit this horse he was so rank. No health issues, no pain, just an a$$hole. I had him for 2 years on this roller coaster thinking I could train it out of him. Nope, moved on, never been happier.

Do what you gotta, move on, but don't blame the melanoma.

kkj
Apr. 5, 2007, 05:14 PM
SGray if you had to retire your horse from serious riding/showing and just dink around on it because it had lots of melanoma tumors in its guttoral pouch and could no longer really bend there or go in a frame, and it had some trouble eating as a result ... or you had held a horse when it was put down at 11 because of melanoma interfering with its lymph node so one of its hind legs was so stocked up and stiff that it had trouble getting up and walking around ...or your pony had to have a couple of thousand dollars worth of surgery on the colon at 4 from melanoma and then died a few years later from a colic associated to that... then you might not think melanoma is never a problem.

Melanoma is usually not a problem, but it can be. While it is no where near as dangerous in horses as it is in people, it still does kill horses or limit their usefulness.

YankeeLawyer
Apr. 5, 2007, 05:20 PM
melanoma in people will often kill within two years
melanoma in horses will often kill within two decades

Regarding melanoma in horses, their prognosis completely depends. Are you a veterinarian?

YankeeLawyer
Apr. 5, 2007, 05:24 PM
SGray if you had to retire your horse from serious riding/showing and just dink around on it because it had lots of melanoma tumors in its guttoral pouch and could no longer really bend there or go in a frame, and it had some trouble eating as a result ... or you had held a horse when it was put down at 11 because of melanoma interfering with its lymph node so one of its hind legs was so stocked up and stiff that it had trouble getting up and walking around ...or your pony had to have a couple of thousand dollars worth of surgery on the colon at 4 from melanoma and then died a few years later from a colic associated to that... then you might not think melanoma is never a problem.

Melanoma is usually not a problem, but it can be. While it is no where near as dangerous in horses as it is in people, it still does kill horses or limit their usefulness.

Exactly. And my experience with it is closr to what kkj describes that those who suggest it is merely cosmetic. A lot depends on where they are located.

Robyn
Apr. 5, 2007, 07:08 PM
Horse Journal, December 2006...

"Is that melanoma deadly? If the horse is gray, probably not. But if he's any other color, you may want to take note."

"On microscopic examination, melanomas in non-gray horses are much more similar to the aggressive and deadly melanomas found in people."

"Melanomas in non-gray horses are potentially aggressive."

Now I have to go out and feed my thirty year old gray gelding, along with his 17 year old gray pasturemate. Oh, and I almost forgot about my coming five year old gray youngster :)

Platinum Equestrian
Apr. 5, 2007, 07:59 PM
For crying out loud SLC, have you actually ever seen a hunter/jumper rider that just poses & only rides in 2 point 100% of the time......nope.....didn't think so! And, maybe just maybe, this horse does NOT want to be a dressage horse. I have actually seen some pretty rank dressage horses become mellow & happy as clams once they've reached a hunter/jumper barn (& vice versa). Dressage is not cut out for EVERY horse (just as jumping isn't for some either) & a good hunter/jumper rider could possibly do wonders for this mare. Gotta tell you, I've seen some pretty wild "come to Jesus" moments with a jumper rider & they were no where being bucked off (the dressage rider was!):lol:

Thank-you, for sticking up for us hunter/jumper riders. Many of you don't have the facts. Denise is a lovely woman, who I'm lucky to have come into contact with. GiGi is SO lucky to have someone own her like Denise... she's provided the best medical care, time, and attention one can offer any animal.

I didn't take the time to read every comment and I don't normally come to the dressage forum - I find it to be quite miserable over here - as can be seen with this thread.

GiGi came to our private hunter/jumper farm for the lease. The mare was excellent at first, and really seemed to like the jumping (over Xs, just getting started)... the mare is not dangerous... and is sound. She worked quite well on the flat. I do not know if there's pain caused by the cancer... I'm not sure if anyone can say with certainty. She was very happy and relaxed at our farm, and enjoyed hours of turnout and personal attention with the rider and us. The rider is competent but getting back into riding after some time out of the saddle. However, with time, it was obvious, GiGi is more interested in working hard, to get out of work... rather than just working hard. Could she be in pain? Sure, I guess... and that's why I think Denise is making the best decision for GiGi. Again, the mare is so lucky to have her... and I can't imagine going through what she has with this mare. The mare will be so happy at the beautiful facility, just living out her days, as all horses would like to, as a horse.

So, please give Denise a break... and some support.

Bogey2
Apr. 5, 2007, 08:27 PM
Now I have to go out and feed my thirty year old gray gelding, along with his 17 year old gray pasturemate. Oh, and I almost forgot about my coming five year old gray youngster


I just fed my 25 year-old gray gelding!:yes:

Pony Fixer
Apr. 5, 2007, 08:50 PM
Regarding melanoma in horses, their prognosis completely depends. Are you a veterinarian?

I think SGray is, and I know I am. I mean, kkj has had some SERIOUS bad juju to have 3 grey horses that have all basically succumbed to a disease that is RARELY debilitating in grey horses. RARELY as in many grey horses have or get them, almost none die or are debilitated by them. Do I have journal articles that say as much? Uh, no, not on me.

While I can't say for sure, I don't think that Gigi has been diagnosed with huge lymph nodes, a guttural pouch full, etc. to be causing her issue. She sounds like a horse that doesn't want to work. Heck, I don't want to work and can be surly about it too. But it does pay for my bay horse (and soon, for my new GREY horse as well!!)

PnkPanthr
Apr. 5, 2007, 09:10 PM
i dont mean to be blunt or anything of the sort..i dont know YF in any way.. but seriously people....calm down... YF has not posted for a while and clearly wants the the thread to end. this is getting very heated and it is really getting harsh...just leave this alone. it is YF horse and let her do what she wants. whether or not you think it is a good decision is really not your choice or required. if u dont agree with the post, then DONT POST.answer a question if it is asked, but then leave it alone. the only reason why i am posting is because whenever i log on, i see that more and more people have responded to this post when it cleary says several pages ago, that SHE WANTS THE THREAD TO END. keep your rude comments to yourself, and havent your parents ever taught you "if you dont have anything nice to say, then dont say anything at all?" just leave it. and CALM DOWN.

im sorry for the bluntness, but this needs to end.

YankeeLawyer
Apr. 5, 2007, 09:32 PM
I think SGray is, and I know I am. I mean, kkj has had some SERIOUS bad juju to have 3 grey horses that have all basically succumbed to a disease that is RARELY debilitating in grey horses. RARELY as in many grey horses have or get them, almost none die or are debilitated by them. Do I have journal articles that say as much? Uh, no, not on me.

While I can't say for sure, I don't think that Gigi has been diagnosed with huge lymph nodes, a guttural pouch full, etc. to be causing her issue. She sounds like a horse that doesn't want to work. Heck, I don't want to work and can be surly about it too. But it does pay for my bay horse (and soon, for my new GREY horse as well!!)

I had a very bad experience with melanomas in the only 2 grey horses I ever dealt with extensively -- one was leased, the other I owned. I don't really care what some horse journal reported, frankly, when I have personally dealt with the problem. Maybe it was like having lightening strike twice, but then I guess I will just count myself as having seriously poor luck and will not tempt fate again.

In any event, this thread did not have anything to do with whether melanomas are usually fatal or not. It was about the OP's sadness at the fact her horse's lease situation did not work out, and that she feels her alternative is to retire the horse.

It happens that the particular horse in question was given a grim prognosis by vets that have actually seen her, but apart from that she is not turning out to be a suitable match for her owner as well as others. Even IF she only had behavioral issues, or in fact, no issues at all, the OP is completely entitled to choose to retire her if she thinks that is best for the horse. Newsflash: the horse does NOT care if she is ridden, in training with a top trainer, or ever wins a ribbon, which frankly are for people, not horses. The horse likely cares if she is getting adequate attention, good food, nice water, and nice turnout. All of which are fully available at many farms the OP can choose from. What on earth is wrong with that?

JAGold
Apr. 5, 2007, 09:49 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with retiring the horse. Horses don't know they have potential and they certainly don't give a damn about reaching it. It is disingenuous to suggest that melanomas are at the root of the behavior issues, though. Pain and training and rider compatibality, or lack thereof, are all possibilities. And what people are reacting to on this thread are the inconsistencies, excuses, and self-serving explanations.

(Also, I think it's silly to claim that a personal sample size of two provides more accurate, generalizable information than the larger sample and controlled studies published in veterinary journals. If the journals had said "no grey horse ever gets melanomas," well, then you've proved them wrong. But otherwise, anecdotes do not equal evidence.) --Jess

JanWeber
Apr. 5, 2007, 09:51 PM
Anyone who has ever had a gray horse with melanomas is entitled to feel a little skittish about grays or about melanomas... As someone who will never again consider a QH after a half-QH navicular pony (with cute little feet) - I understand and sympathize completely.

kkj
Apr. 5, 2007, 09:53 PM
I did not own all the horses that I knew who died of fates related to melanoma. One belonged to my mother and one to a good friend. I totally agree it is "probably not" a problem, but it indeed can be. A million things can go wrong with horses.

From the French (I believe) vet who was working on Melanoma research at UC Davis, he told me all grey horses get melanoma. Some horses you would never know have it, unless you did an autopsy. Still it is there. I do think it can subtly affect horses and that sometimes the owners never realize.

We have had grey horses live into their 30s too, but I have also seen them die from a disease that is very much related to their color. I would not buy another grey horse nor breed my mare to a grey stallion, just because I have had the bad luck before. It would be very unlikely to happen again, but I would rather just have a bay.

JAGold
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:07 PM
But any horse can have melanomas or navicular. If you had a bay with melanomas or a TB with navicular, would you avoid all bays or all TBs in the future? There is some overall (and probably unknown) fraction of all horses who have navicular. Knowing or owning one who is does NOT change that overall fraction. It doesn't at all affect the chance that the next QH or grey you come across will have problems.

(And for the record? I had a GREY QH mare. She's still sound and going in her 20s, with neither melanomas nor navicular ;) I've also been responsible for a grey horse who did eventually die of complications from melanomas. Neither of these experiences tells me whether or not I should "risk" owning a grey in the future, though...) --Jess

YankeeLawyer
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:12 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with retiring the horse. Horses don't know they have potential and they certainly don't give a damn about reaching it. It is disingenuous to suggest that melanomas are at the root of the behavior issues, though. Pain and training and rider compatibality, or lack thereof, are all possibilities. And what people are reacting to on this thread are the inconsistencies, excuses, and self-serving explanations.

(Also, I think it's silly to claim that a personal sample size of two provides more accurate, generalizable information than the larger sample and controlled studies published in veterinary journals. If the journals had said "no grey horse ever gets melanomas," well, then you've proved them wrong. But otherwise, anecdotes do not equal evidence.) --Jess

To clarify, I never said that melanomas were at the root of the problem vis a vis her behavior. I did suggest she might have some hormonal issues going on given the description by those who know her of a jekyll and hyde personality, and other indications there may be something going on in her back. That can happen with ovarian cysts, for example. I referred to melanomas in that same post not because they would generally cause a behavior issue, but in the context of a possible "female" problem. I am not sure, for example, if a melanoma on an ovary would have the same effect as a typical cyst, but I would think so.

And FYI, I never said melanomas are highly likely to be fatal, or any such thing. I do however find it grossly cavalier for people to dismiss YF's concerns as wholly unfounded based on a couple of journal articles in some second rate non-scientific publication that that they happened upon, and to make sweeping generalizations based on that. And frankly, if you had two horses die on you directly due to melanomas, I think you might be a little gun shy about them as well. The FACT of the matter is that OP's horse was diagnosed with a terminal condition, but of course all the people who are not vets and/or have never seen the horse know better. I also was not aware that anyone had cited to any larger, generalized study in a veterinary journal. And for what it's worth, my understanding is that for an equine study to be considered scientifically valid, only 6 subject horses are required. That is hardly a large pool from which someone can extrapolate reliable statistics. But I do thank you for explaining to me what constitutes evidence.

JAGold
Apr. 5, 2007, 10:24 PM
There are actually several studies available (many are online, but only if you have access to PubMed.) Here's an interesting quote from one (which had a sample of 296 horses, for the record):
In contrast to melanomas in solid-coloured horses characterised by early metastases, melanomas in grey horses showed less malignancy. Affected individuals often had encapsulated nodules or structures similar to human blue nevi. Grey horse-specific genetic factors inhibiting metastatic processes may be responsible for this phenomenon. (Seltenhammer et al., Equine Vet J. 2003 Mar;35(2):153-7.)

lowroller
Apr. 6, 2007, 08:26 AM
I won't comment on the situation in particular, but in a general sense, my concern "retiring" a 6 yr old would be that life changes, and this horse is going to live for another 20 years - are you sure you are going to be there for her for 20 years?

What if your financial situation changes and you can't afford her? What if you (god forbid) die? What if your priorities change?

Now you have a horse that is extremely unlikely to find someone else who will pay to keep them in a retired state. (you had a hard enough time finding a leasor - imagine trying to find someone who wants a horse to stand in their field!) And, if she has no skills that are of value on the market - things are pretty unlikely to go well for her, or for her new owner.

(I am reminded of a post in Off Course forum where a breeder is trying to find horse that went through killer's auction. No one wants to spend time/money fixing someone else's problems, someone might get hurt by your problems. Someone might breed her, and perpetuate the problems.)

My inclination would be to find a tough young horseless rider to take her as a project - someone who you don't pay, but you foot the bill for the horse (because who wants to pay to fix your problems?) - and see if you can at least get her to w/t/c small course point of rideability, maybe try to get out to some local h/j schooling shows (I picture hunter as a better future, less demanding than dressage). There are few horses that can't manage this, and lots of riders who can get them there and enjoy the challenge - the finished product might not be pretty to your eyes (i.e. based on her personality, she may go best on long reins, strung out, in a "low hassle" type of bearing), but it would be job security for the horse - she would have a skill set that gave her some value in the world, should your ability to keep her in retirement change. A horse with no skills is always in danger of winding up in a bad situation.

I think of it in a similar way to a rich parent forcing their child to finish High School etc, even if they are happy living in the basement playing PS2. Someday, they may have to earn their keep - so they better set the foundation.

(Leasor said something along the lines of "horse works hard at getting out of work" - well, so do a lot of young horses. I would have given up on my own 100x over if I quit the first time she said NO!)

Auventera Two
Apr. 6, 2007, 08:38 AM
I've been kind of hesitant to post this, but in reading the previous post, I think I'd have to agree that perhaps a hunter career might suit this horse? Or even trail riding. Something where she doesn't have to feel the constant pressure of being "engaged and in a frame." For some horses that might just be too much. Perhaps hacking her out and allowing her to see the wildlife and cross creeks and canter on dirt roads with a seasoned trail horse would do wonders for her. My own horse is much more well behaved on a trail ride with all the distractions and challenges that trail rides present, than between 4 walls going around in a 20m circle. Some horses are just cut out for different jobs.

Auventera Two
Apr. 6, 2007, 08:39 AM
Regarding melanoma in horses, their prognosis completely depends. Are you a veterinarian?

Good point. My comment about Gigi having terminal cancer was based on the post that YF made saying the vet had given the mare a 2 1/2 year life expectancy. I figured the vet knows more than we do. :) I did read where she said that a further exam though revealed the tumors to not be growing. So I guess I'm not sure how dire her situation is.

Platinum Equestrian
Apr. 6, 2007, 09:24 AM
I won't comment on the situation in particular, but in a general sense, my concern "retiring" a 6 yr old would be that life changes, and this horse is going to live for another 20 years - are you sure you are going to be there for her for 20 years?

What if your financial situation changes and you can't afford her? What if you (god forbid) die? What if your priorities change?

Now you have a horse that is extremely unlikely to find someone else who will pay to keep them in a retired state. (you had a hard enough time finding a leasor - imagine trying to find someone who wants a horse to stand in their field!) And, if she has no skills that are of value on the market - things are pretty unlikely to go well for her, or for her new owner.

(I am reminded of a post in Off Course forum where a breeder is trying to find horse that went through killer's auction. No one wants to spend time/money fixing someone else's problems, someone might get hurt by your problems. Someone might breed her, and perpetuate the problems.)

My inclination would be to find a tough young horseless rider to take her as a project - someone who you don't pay, but you foot the bill for the horse (because who wants to pay to fix your problems?) - and see if you can at least get her to w/t/c small course point of rideability, maybe try to get out to some local h/j schooling shows (I picture hunter as a better future, less demanding than dressage). There are few horses that can't manage this, and lots of riders who can get them there and enjoy the challenge - the finished product might not be pretty to your eyes (i.e. based on her personality, she may go best on long reins, strung out, in a "low hassle" type of bearing), but it would be job security for the horse - she would have a skill set that gave her some value in the world, should your ability to keep her in retirement change. A horse with no skills is always in danger of winding up in a bad situation.

I think of it in a similar way to a rich parent forcing their child to finish High School etc, even if they are happy living in the basement playing PS2. Someday, they may have to earn their keep - so they better set the foundation.

(Leasor said something along the lines of "horse works hard at getting out of work" - well, so do a lot of young horses. I would have given up on my own 100x over if I quit the first time she said NO!)


Your post enlightened us all... :eyes rolling:

What if you get hit by a car when you are leaving for work today? What if, what if? Give me a break, you don't know half of the story... the most important of all of the facts, is that the mare was given two years to live due to terminal cancer. So far, she has outlived that original estimate, but the mare is consumed with the cancer. I've never seen such masses of tumors. According to the specialist, the cancer is still terminal, just didn't progress at the original rate they expected due to the size of the masses.

So, when you've seen the horse and know the situation, then you can give your expert opinion. Until then, no one asked for it.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 6, 2007, 10:44 AM
PlatinumEquestrian, thank you. We had the same visceral response to that post.

Dale Area 1
Apr. 6, 2007, 12:02 PM
Your post enlightened us all... :eyes rolling:

What if you get hit by a car when you are leaving for work today? What if, what if? Give me a break, you don't know half of the story... the most important of all of the facts, is that the mare was given two years to live due to terminal cancer. So far, she has outlived that original estimate, but the mare is consumed with the cancer. I've never seen such masses of tumors. According to the specialist, the cancer is still terminal, just didn't progress at the original rate they expected due to the size of the masses.

So, when you've seen the horse and know the situation, then you can give your expert opinion. Until then, no one asked for it.


I did know Gigi and her Sire when they boarded in the same facility as me prior to their move to FL. So I can comment on her behavior and training at that time, but I won't.

Platinum, your post on what if, I have to comment.

I purchased a farm in 2003, have my two event, dressage horses at home. These horses will be with me for life, that was decided by my husband and I. People think I am crazy, but I set up in my will a trust fund for both of them in case anything every happens to us. Horses have a legal and horse guidian, payment of care for the rest of their natural lives as they have at this time.

Hope you don't think I crazy, but, hey my family doesn't need my money or property. I am very attached to my guys, my eventer I had since 7, he will be 20 this year and is still going strong doing Training level/First Level and jumping 3ft.

My Dad always said to me, it is your responsibility to take care of them and give them the best. :)

J-Lu
Apr. 6, 2007, 10:25 PM
Your post enlightened us all... :eyes rolling:

What if you get hit by a car when you are leaving for work today? What if, what if? Give me a break, you don't know half of the story... the most important of all of the facts, is that the mare was given two years to live due to terminal cancer. So far, she has outlived that original estimate, but the mare is consumed with the cancer. I've never seen such masses of tumors. According to the specialist, the cancer is still terminal, just didn't progress at the original rate they expected due to the size of the masses.

So, when you've seen the horse and know the situation, then you can give your expert opinion. Until then, no one asked for it.



Geez, this is a totally public internet forum- 146 posts and 10,000 views to a highly emotional original post that started a highly emotional and relatively combative thread...and you're telling actually someone who posted that since they've never seen the horse in question, no one is asking for his/her opinion? On a public chat forum that's all about peoples' opinions? With all due respect to everyone involved, it might be time for some perspective on this public yet uber-personal thread. What's the point of feeling the need to offend strangers who don't know "the story" (or didn't read all 146 posts)...or feeling the need to be offended by strangers who don't know "the story" (or read all 146 posts). There's no point at this point!

A.Roose
Apr. 7, 2007, 12:25 AM
You are (or you're or even your) offending me by using the God's name in vain.

Since when is there only one God? :confused: And whose God is the only one? In any case, it wouldn't be "your" under any scenario in the context.

DMK, yet again I am awed by your use of sarcasm. It wings right over the head of the intended target, but the rest of us enjoy it. :D

GoLightly
Apr. 7, 2007, 12:35 AM
Your post enlightened us all... :eyes rolling:



So, when you've seen the horse and know the situation, then you can give your expert opinion. Until then, no one asked for it.

Wow. Unnecessary rudeness. Oh and correct me if I'm wrong. When people post on a message board, don't they expect to get replies? And aren't those replies usually opinions? Yeah, I thought so. If she doesn't want opinons, she shouldn't post it. <Insert big eyeroll>

I happen to agree with lowroller. I would want any horse of mine to go to a happy home and lead a productive life, if that was at all possible. But I don't know Gigi. It's ultimately YoungFilly's decision to make. I'm sure her intentions are to do the best by her horse.

YoungFilly I'm sending you and Gigi positive thoughts at this tough time!

lowroller
Apr. 7, 2007, 02:49 PM
Well, I never asked for Platinum Equestrian's expert opinion on my expert opinion.

But now that she has given it, I think my original expert opinion in regards to her level of expertise is probably even more on the mark than back when I made it.

BB's are such fun. Good luck to you, Gigi.

PonyHunterz
Apr. 5, 2008, 08:09 PM
Any update on GiGi???:D

Dune
Apr. 5, 2008, 11:01 PM
Any update on GiGi???:D

Oh, you're a cheeky lil' pony girl all right!!! :winkgrin::D:lol:

bird4416
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:19 AM
Holy thread resurection, Batman. :D Y'all do realize that the original post was last year not this year.

Reynard Ridge
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:17 AM
Yes, an anniversary resurrection. As always, I wonder what the real deal is.

Kathy Johnson
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:37 AM
An April Fool's joke? I was having a flashback, thinking "I've heard this story before." My best to youngfilly, as always.

lizathenag
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:41 AM
evidently one must put a stake through the heart of a thread and shoot it with a silver bullet. . .

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:44 AM
How about a clove of garlic around your computer so that resurrected threads can't hurt it?

enjoytheride
Apr. 6, 2008, 04:42 PM
I think Gigi is showing at 3rd level but don't quote me on that.

dsgshowmom
Apr. 6, 2008, 10:10 PM
How funny, I was at the show in Jacksonville (we are heading back home to NYC) and we heard about GiGi too. Well, all I can say is that I was really ready to hate on her when I first heard about the GiGi saga, but I heard that GiGi is doing well, and YF plans on showing her at recognized shows soon.

I did some searching for YoungFilly and GiGi and found a recent Youtube video. I have only seen YF in Wellington, and I have never seen GiGi but it does appear that might be her. Is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdU9LXBFKw

FancyFree
Apr. 6, 2008, 10:20 PM
How funny, I was at the show in Jacksonville (we are heading back home to NYC) and we heard about GiGi too. Well, all I can say is that I was really ready to hate on her when I first heard about the GiGi saga, but I heard that GiGi is doing well, and YF plans on showing her at recognized shows soon.

I did some searching for YoungFilly and GiGi and found a recent Youtube video. I have only seen YF in Wellington, and I have never seen GiGi but it does appear that might be her. Is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdU9LXBFKw

That sure looks like her.

Pony Fixer
Apr. 6, 2008, 10:20 PM
Yikes. Gigi is REALLY uneven behind, mostly seen in the medium/extended trot.

inca
Apr. 6, 2008, 10:23 PM
Interesting video. Am glad that Gigi is apparently healthy and in work.

Anyone know what happened to Odette? She was for sale last year. Wonder if she found a new home.

ESG
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:32 PM
evidently one must put a stake through the heart of a thread and shoot it with a silver bullet. . .

You've left out the holy water, cutting off the head and filling the mouth with garlic. :cool:

ESG
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:34 PM
How funny, I was at the show in Jacksonville (we are heading back home to NYC) and we heard about GiGi too. Well, all I can say is that I was really ready to hate on her when I first heard about the GiGi saga, but I heard that GiGi is doing well, and YF plans on showing her at recognized shows soon.

I did some searching for YoungFilly and GiGi and found a recent Youtube video. I have only seen YF in Wellington, and I have never seen GiGi but it does appear that might be her. Is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdU9LXBFKw

How interesting. The video has been removed by the user.

YF, your credibility is even more suspect than it was before. And, since it was virtually non existent before, ...................................:winkgrin:

slc2
Apr. 7, 2008, 08:41 AM
I see we are back to The Court of COH Dressage Forum, trying more defendants this week are we? :lol:

You don't know what's goin on with that situation, so don't judge it.

palomino_grl
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:14 AM
I see we are back to The Court of COH Dressage Forum, trying more defendants this week are we? :lol:

You don't know what's goin on with that situation, so don't judge it.

Thank you, SLC2! No one DOES know the situation, so please don't start jumping to crazy conclusions/accusations! :no:

There is no drama here....Gigi is doing very well. She has been boarded at my farm since her return 8 months ago. She is a very sweet, well adjusted horse. Aside from her melanoma, she is happy & healthy and LOVES having a job. :winkgrin:

Without revamping all the neagtivity that comes along with anything having to do w/ YF, she is a very good friend of mine and loves this horse. They are an amazing team w/ a special bond! ;)

slc2
Apr. 7, 2008, 10:11 AM
people get a LITTLE too convinced that the dynamics that occur when a bunch of women gleefully reinforce eachother for picking on some chosen target on a bb actually have anything to do with reality :)

AnotherRound
Apr. 7, 2008, 10:58 AM
OK, Slick-o, why are you so quick to jump into agitation and controversy on this thread? The most anyone said was hooray if she's showing, and what does anyone know about the horse and how its doing, considering what was posted last year. I'm glad they are happy and having a good working relationship and boarding at Palomino's place. Nice piece of news, considering how hard it was for YF to get herself sorted out. Lets wish them the best, and, lets wish fellow posters the opportunity to take a step back and say something kind. So give Young Filly a break, Slick and don't stir up the pot with your song and dance about mean posters and struggles with reality on the internet. [edit] I admire anyone who puts out honest effort to improve and grow, and yes, I have heard YF has been doing well this winter. [edit]

FancyFree
Apr. 7, 2008, 11:23 AM
Let us know when you manage to sort out your imagination from your real life and we'll very likely be happy to hear about your growth from you too.

Where's that little applause hands emoticon? Oh well, this will have to do: :lol:

I saw some of YF scores posted somewhere. IIRC, she's riding thrid or fourth level, with pretty good scores. So all I can say is good for her for actually doing it. There are so many internet poseurs on equestrian BBs. At least YF really does ride.

ETA: Must learn to bite tongue HARD when it comes to poseurs.

I wish her, Gigi and Odette all the best.

slc2
Apr. 7, 2008, 11:23 AM
i think you're hoping i'll give an angry retort to all these accusations of being a liar, and get in trouble with the moderators? guess again! :lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 7, 2008, 12:31 PM
I'm thrilled Gigi and YF are doing well. Sadly, we have a wonderful horse at our barn, albeit several years older than Gigi, and his melanomas recently became quite aggressive. He is such a sweetheart, his owner is heartbroken. I am jingling that what happened for Gigi can happen for him.

Moderator 1
Apr. 7, 2008, 12:43 PM
It seems we've gotten some nice news for those interested in an update on this old thread/situation.

Please avoid the personal commentary.

Thanks.

slc2
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:16 PM
Some of the melanomas that really grow a lot and are quite unsightly and very external, don't bother a horse at all in dressage, where its cosmetic appearance is not judged.

I think the concern with Gigi was how close they were getting to the gutteral pouches and how big they were early on. Internal growths in the gut might also cause a crisis.

I'm not so sure it was ever the idea that the horse was in immediate danger, just the grim prospect of having no idea what course they'd take and doubt about the wisdom of planning for a long course of training and moving up the levels for years with a horse with growths at a young age.

Most people contemplating a long course of training and competition would be very hesitant to do so with a youngster that shows obvious cancer growth. There are enough doubts about success without taking that on too.

ec412
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:39 PM
Maybe this will give you some hope, YF: YouTube Video - Breathe (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw).

The rider is a local dressage rider and aspiring trainer with a knack for managing the difficult horses. The first half of the vid includes the misbehaviours. The second half of the vid shows the same horses and the results of her patience. All they really needed were boundaries and someone strong enough - and skilled enough - to call their bluffs.

Not every horse can be reformed enough for an ammy to ride and trust. But many can. I get the idea that you're mare is just a bully under saddle like those in the vid.


Thanks for the you tube video! Loved it...they all act like my horse :)
I used to have MANY of the antics, now just have some...they are not out of pain..fear..after building better trust, we are getting better..age is helping also

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 7, 2008, 03:16 PM
Internal growths in the gut might also cause a crisis.


This is the situation with my friend's horse. But they can be so unpredictable, just glad they haven't prevented Gigi and YF from moving on.

Dressage Art
Apr. 7, 2008, 04:20 PM
Some COTHers successfully ridiculed away yet another 3/4th level rider who shows with scores in mid 60%... I guess the resurrection of this thread was to have some more fun on YF's account???

I'm so glad to hear that YF is doing GREAT at shows and her COTH piranhas don't have much to pick at.

YF - I wish you the best!

inca
Apr. 7, 2008, 04:32 PM
While I agree somewhat, YF brought a LOT of it on herself with her attitude and her own postings. I have no idea WHY this thread was resurrected but I really don't see too many people ridiculing her on this thread. Most are glad Gigi is doing well.

I am also glad to hear she kept Odette and is doing respectably well on her at 4th level. But to characterize her as always scoring in the mid-60's is not exactly accurate. Doesn't matter though because she has gotten respectable scores that I would love to get my first season at 4th level. Doubt if many posters could do any better.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Apr. 7, 2008, 05:08 PM
I would love to get to THIRD level.

Heck, I would love to get to SECOND level.

However, at this point, doesn't matter where we can ride, gas and etc costs will keep us from any rated shows. And severely limit our schooling shows.

Moderator 1
Apr. 7, 2008, 06:11 PM
We've removed a post and are closing the thread.