PDA

View Full Version : Injured Stifle Clique



Pages : [1] 2

CJ4ME
Apr. 2, 2007, 02:56 PM
Well, it sounds like a lot of us are dealing with injured stifles :cry:

I would love a place to share information and offer support .

So introduce yourself and your horse...

I am Amy and have a 9 y/o TB gelding C.J.

He was always weak in his right hind. Last spring he came up lame on his right hind, intermittently. In the summer we did a steroid injection which worked well for several months. The first week in December he came up acutely lame after a trail ride and jumping lesson but no known injury.

Rest and hock and stifle injections didn't help.

Took him to Cornell where xray and US diagnosed large osteophytes and some arthritis.

RX:
HA injection
Adequan
rest and walking for a month
HA injection
walk, trot and small pen t/o
very gradual return to flat work.
No turns or circles, no lunge, no collection, no jumping until he can go at least 2 weeks of 45 min a day sound on the flat.

Prognosis: Fair for full return, Fair to Good for flat, light riding or pasture sound.

We are on week 1.....and $1500 and counting (NOT including the prev. stifle and hock injections) :sigh:

*Bounce*
Apr. 2, 2007, 05:09 PM
I'll join!

Mo is a 11 y/o Warmblood
Came back from a lease out of shape and midly lame left hind. After 2 weeks of no progress vet came out, gave him some stifle injections which did nothing. X-Rays came up clean, ultra sound showed us the tissue damage in the left hind. We are on week 4 of stall rest, and won't be able to tell how it's going until he is re-ultra sounded in 2 weeks.

We're up to $2,000 and counting so I feel your pain. Jingles for everyone going through this for a healthy recovery -my fingers are crossed he will be rideable eventually.

CJ4ME
Apr. 2, 2007, 06:13 PM
Anyone used Adequan for a stifle? I am starting CJ on this week and am really hoping it helps since his issue is arthritis...

But I really wonder if the osteophytes are a result of ligament injury and I should give him more strict stall rest (like months instead of weeks).

Its sooooo hard to not second guess constantly!

Caitlynsmom
Apr. 2, 2007, 07:03 PM
I have a gelding with weak stifles (starts out lame and then works out of it)
We stood him up a little more behind (squared and shortened toes) and put him on a loading dose of estrone (1 shot every 5 days for 5 shots) and
then monthly. It helped a lot.

tradewind
Apr. 2, 2007, 07:45 PM
estrone helped mine alot also, as did squaring off the toe, plus careful rehab by a person experienced in that area. I am not even going to bother counting up the bill, I would have a major heart attack.

SparklePlenty
Apr. 2, 2007, 08:16 PM
Heck, count me in....:sadsmile:

I also am an "Amy" and have a 15year old Morgan... We slipped on a road about a month ago, and haven't been right since. After a steriod injection w/HA and some stall rest we were finally allowed to be on light turnout. So here it is 3 weeks post treatment and we're not even close to being better.

The vet is coming out again tomorrow for a re-eval. but told me to call Dr.Allen/Leesburg/New Bolton and make an appt. for diagnostics. <sigh>

This does get better right??:yes: :no: :confused:

CJ4ME
Apr. 2, 2007, 09:56 PM
My vets said stifles were tricky and often become chronic...NOT something I wanted to hear.

Its pretty hard to keep a TB on stall rest! :eek:

What is estrone? What does it do?

tradewind
Apr. 2, 2007, 10:43 PM
The basic non medical type answer is estrone is a hormone that relaxes the ligaments of the stifle to allow a horse with weak, stuck stifles to pick up the leg more easily. This combined with proper farrier work and the appropriate type of exercise to build up the muscles surrounding the stifles is often prescribed for horses that have "stuck stifles". My particular horse was stuck in both legs as a result of a pasture accident and lack of condition being a recently acquired rescue horse. He has been in rehab since October, is much much improved, but still needs a few more months of very consistent rehab. Hence me not wanting to add the bill up. I am however, very eternally grateful to the wonderful lady doing this with him.

Rockfish
Apr. 2, 2007, 11:00 PM
I'll play:

Rocky, 20 year old OTTB got tangled up in something out in the field and tweaked the stifle disentangling himself. It think i found the culprit, a down tree with roots arching up out of the ground and hoof prints near it........meet mr. saw. This is on top off finally coming back into a normal routine after a URI.
He was injured on a Sunday, but not lame, just some bumps; put him back outside lameness showed up Monday, went on no turn out, and by tuesday he was so sore from compensating on the opposite leg that he couldn't hold a trot more than 2 stride, but he was super sound at the walk. The vet was out wednesday and confirmed upper leg injury, 99% certain it was the stifle (left). Put him on 7 days of bute and surpass, plus a short walk to the wash rack for hosing the leg. No more walking than that-we could go out to teh ring briefly to put him on the lunge and check his progress, but i think in total, we walked barely 200ft per day. By the following Sunday he was not lame, a bit stiff, but he worked out of it.

On day 6 of his stall rest, he barged out his door, and ran out to the field. He has show no effects from his jaunt, and given that, we started with short hand walks around a round pen, and some hand grazing. Also being TB and acting his shoe size more than his age, when we check him out on the lunge now, he usually throws in a few acrobatics, landing sound. We'll see how it goes.

though given the area affected, he won't be doing much more than walking and maybe some round pen turn out for now, to try to minimize him bouncing around.

36 & Over
Apr. 3, 2007, 12:15 AM
My 10 year old Appx. Quarter mare has a left stifle that has been sticky since day one, but until last summer, we were fine, doing the hunter circuits at 2'6, jumping up to 3ft. at home. Anyway, last summer she was in a stall (bad) for almost 2 days straight at a horse show and caught her left hind so badly that she was 3-legged lame. We took her to Leesburg for ultrasound. Found no ligament injury. Rx was conditioning work, hills, straight lines etc... Well, we did all that, plus Adequan 7 treatments every 4 days, Legends and finally a joint injection. We have had ups and downs. My trainer is very concerned, thinking she has damaged cartilage. We are going to Va. Equine Imaging next week. Hopefully we will have some answers.
She lets you know when it hurts, by cross cantering, bunny hopping at the canter, favoring the right lead, rushing and just being generally bitchy. She also head tilts, which is strange. She is on Depo right now,which seems to help her moods, and today we had a lovely ride on the flat. I am at a crossroads. I am really hoping we figure this out next week!!
Thanks

Oldenburg Mom
Apr. 3, 2007, 08:31 AM
Oh boy, will I join! I've got TWO stifle problems: one solved, the other starting to get solved.

First one took, really, a year. The key, from what I've read is to strengthen the stifle muscles (e.g., the muscles that support the joint.)

The other one strained his stifle in the pasture being a Bozo. *sigh* He is starting back in work this week: walking until he can walk one hour without complaint and ONLY ONLY in straight lines. No circles. He is currently taking Cosequin AND Hyaluronex.

The first horse had hyaluronex only...and is fine now. But it did take months and months of walking first, then trotting. Straight lines only. BTW, the advantage of all this slow work is you can really work on your seat.

CJ4ME
Apr. 3, 2007, 01:31 PM
I feel bad because my trainer and home vet had me work CJ collected and over cavaletti and always on a 20m to strengthen the stifle (too cold for hills) and all this time I should have been resting it and going straight.

I feel a little mad at them right now...:mad:

Cornell said NO circles, NO collection, NO cavaletti until he is sound for 2 weeks and then GRADUAL buildup. :sigh: I hope I didn't screw it up so much that he never heals.

Amy

Gunnar
Apr. 3, 2007, 01:34 PM
I have a stifle problem too but not an injury per say! Rosie has intermittent UFP. I have tried Estrone, conditioning, EPSM diet (she is a Draft X), no work etc but after more than a year she is still the same. She is out 24/7 already. She is coming 5 and we hope she will grow out of it. But i just noticed her huge butt was high again so she is still growing! :eek: Due to financial woes I have not any diagnostic work done. She has been to vet about 3 times but nothing has worked. She is only lame under saddle and passes all flexion tests. It seems if she had some trauma that she would be better on bute but she is not!

The vet is puzzled and we are considering injecting her. Has anyone tried this injection of an acid?? Supposedly scars the liagment and tightens it?? Must be painful so I have resisted. With me my other horse is finally sound after 1/ 1/2 years of rehab! so I have someone to actually ride in a circle or maybe canter and even jump!:cool: Having another horse to ride makes it easier to stick my head in the sand!:sadsmile:

My advice is to trot, trot and trot again. Gunnar was a stifely boy and he had a trotting regimen of at least 20 minutes 5 days a week. On non lesson days he most likely did not even canter! But he stayed strong and sound because of it! So get out there and trot as much as you can!:sadsmile:

I only owned her for 1 month before this happened so I have been very frustrated to say the least. I am trying to be positive but boy is it tough! Try riding your 4 year old, mostly untrained, Draft X in a frame! The vet wants her collected at walk and trot so she does not stick that leg out behind her! Needless to say she is bored with walking and some collected trotting. And her mouth is hard as a rock now so I am probably stuck with that for life. I ride her in the open and she likes to go faster than is allowed so it become a fight. Someday I hopoe to be able to let her go!:sadsmile:

Good luck to you all!:sadsmile: ;)

kiwifruit
Apr. 5, 2007, 08:44 PM
okay...I'll play and ask for advice at the same time (while I down my second glass of wine). My horse was diagnosed with a deformed/damaged meniscus about a month ago. He was injected with HA and stall rest for about four weeks. Today I got him out and he jogged the same way that he went in to the stall four weeks ago, 3/5. I had an appointment with the vet on Monday but I thought I would call him just to run it by him first before I shipped him an hour away. He said that he would at least expect some improvement at this point and said that it would be best to turn him out in a small paddock for another 30 days to see what happens. At the end of 30 days of paddock rest, he said that if he jogged the same, 3/5 that he could inject with steroid and try to get him back again. Of course, I'm not going that route since steroid is only going to mask the problem. I guess I'm concerned that 30 days stall rest is not enough but then again, the horse is going nuts in the stall even with Reserpine! He is weaving, cribbing and stall walking. I think he is doing more damage in his stall then out in a small paddock. Any thoughts or insights? I asked about surgery, Tildren, stem cell, etc but he thought that the horse would show some improvement at this point and said all of those treatments would be wasting my money. Anyway....count me in as a founding member!

Jsalem
Apr. 6, 2007, 08:45 AM
Just bought a cute OTTB from an outfit here in GA that places reacehorses directly from the track. This one wasn't cheap. Did a very thorough PPE with xrays of everything but the stifles. Horse was lame behind when we first climbed on him three days after he arrived. After changing his shoes, rest, chiro with no relief, I called my vet. Xrays show that his left stifle has basically collapsed- he has significant arthritis with a possible floating chip. GREAT! I'm waiting on the blood test results to see if anything was masked during the PPE. I have no idea how he could have been sound for the exam. I have no idea yet how to proceed. I'm hoping I can inject the joint, build him up and make him comfortable. Not what I was expecting.

CJ4ME
Apr. 6, 2007, 11:08 AM
Jsalem, oh what a dissappointment! I am so sorry!

Kiwi: I thought meniscal damage was surgical? But then I have read some other thoughts on the subject
http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/documents/lah/TrumbleStifle.pdfhttp://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2006/February/27/Lameness-may-hinge-on-the-stifle.aspx
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9177

I don't think small pen rest (if the horse was calm) would be much worse than a restless horse in a stall.

kiwifruit
Apr. 6, 2007, 04:29 PM
From what I was told, the meniscus is not torn but damaged from wear and tear. In fact I was told that they "think" it is the meniscus but can't be sure so that is why surgery is not really an option. I'm thinking about doing shock wave in about 2 weeks at the cost of 600.00 per treatment. After talking to someone at New Bolton, they thought that lack of any exercise, including complete stall rest is not good for my guy so now we are doing handwalking to see if it helps. At least it will help my guys brain a bit......I will continue to post as things progress....

ArabX3
Apr. 6, 2007, 04:31 PM
11 yr old arab - was pushed way to hard before I bought him. Was basically shown into the ground. About 2 yrs ago he had a bone chip in his stifle, and he also has bad hocks. We did the surgery to remove the chip, twice, the first time the vet didn't get all of it. His hocks were injected. He came back after 8 months of gradual work. Then he got a digital flexor tendon injury, he was off again this time for a year. The tendon injury healed, he still has bad hocks and some arthritis in his stifle that had the surgery. However I found a great supplement that is working great for him, Hyaluronex. I also have him shod all around with 3/4" 1/2 round shoes. The shoes make his hocks move like he doesn't have a problem. Between the supplement and the shoes we are back in the show ring. It was a long road, and I tried every supplement I could find. I don't have any hills where I live so I lunge him with a double linge line, one going from his halter to me, the other on the other side of his halter, going around his side opposite of the side I am on, and coming around and resting on his hocks. The line stays loose laying on his hocks and he picks his back legs up a little more because of it, stregthening his stifles. It has worked great. He has come a long way. I just believed in him and everything worked out for the best.

Good luck to all of you.


Also to add - a vet told me once if you ever do a ppe, all you need to xray is the stifles, they will tell you everything you need to know. Wish I knew that sooner!

CJ4ME
Apr. 6, 2007, 05:20 PM
That's interesting about xraying the stifles because its always hocks that seem standard...but after this I would never buy a horse without xrays all around!

I gave my first Adequan injection. I am a nurse practitioner so shots aren't hard for me...and on a horse its even easier...he didn't even flinch. But it was still a little scary! He survived though.


HOPING FOR A MIRACLE!!

Brio
Apr. 6, 2007, 06:36 PM
Had my vet check my stilfey boy. He injured his fall of '05. That was shortly after his diagnosis of kissing spines in spring of '05. (ugh). Vet thinks we can try adding adequan on top of the oral joint supplement. Its helped with the dogs he's worked on. We can also do legend.

Ours was a minor injury that has turned chronic. We get special shoeing now and everything. They said today you can really see how he steps on the outside only of his right hind. Result of the sore stifle.

Might ask about the estrone though. Any reference links?

He was low maintanence before I bought him. Good thing he's cute.

Sonic Boom
Apr. 7, 2007, 10:55 PM
Oh heck, I'll join. Posted for advice on this just the other day, and after today, am hoping that weak stifles are the start and end of this thing.

Jen and Sonic, by the way. Sonic is a 6yo OTTB. :)

The more Sonic has been asked/learned how to use his hind end (built this up very gradually), the more this started to show itself. Right stifle. Today's "incident" ended up with both of them looking a mess, Sonic almost going down, weaving like he was drunk after a tail pull, and refusing to move for a while. :sadsmile: All of this in the middle of an excellent, forward, happy and willing ride. Came on so fast, and HAPPENED so fast. He's still a little out of sorts...blood results came back tonight negative for any infections though, thank goodness. But if you could spare some jingles for my good boy...

But, in the middle of all of this, we've still got a catchy stifle to be looked at next week...although now they are looking at a whole lot more at the same time. I've really appreciated the advice and info I've gotten on this.

kiwifruit
Apr. 16, 2007, 10:11 PM
Any updates on how the injured stifles are coming along? I'm on week five of stall rest and handwalking and I "think" he might be getting just a hair better. At this rate, he should be sound by the end of the year! Anyway, since I've started controlled movement, things are looking better. I don't think he is ready for any kind of small turnout yet but maybe some more controlled exercise. I just scheduled my first shock wave treatment at New Bolton for next week. Thank god the new credit card with 0 percent APR till 2008 came in the mail the other day....it looks like an expensive rehab. They've never done shock wave on this type of injury before so I'm excited and nervous at the same time. I'll keep everyone posted on the results! Anyone else have an update/success (even if its a small step) with their injury! Keep your head up, you gotta have faith! These things can heal with time!

Rockfish
Apr. 16, 2007, 11:00 PM
Rocky's coming along well. We are 30 days out from intial injury, and he was almost 100% on day 7. We've been slow in progressing though, going through hand walking, then round pen turn out and hand grazing, now walking undersaddle with small paddock t/o. The vet said to just him tell us how fast or slow to go. Unfortunately, we're old hats are rehab.

ruffian12
Apr. 16, 2007, 11:12 PM
Sign me up, though I am hoping we are not facing a chronic problem.

3 y.o (coming 4) draft-X who got UFP after going to work in the early spring. Two vets inititally thought it was stringhalt (!) and thank god, it wasn't. His patella was sticking on the first step on his left hind, and then he'd walk out of it but still had a slight toe drag. We did bute, for three days with no change.

I had the chiropractor work on him for 45 minutes, and the next day he was 50% better. Then the massage therapist had a go at him, and he was sound within two days. Given his breeding, I've put him on an EPSM diet but am having a hard time getting him to clean up his feed. He's not big on any kind of oil. Suggestions for something he might like?

We just went to a dressage clinic where he had to work on engaging his hind quarters for two days (we didn't school all day, just 2 lessons in 2 days) and I was holding my breath when I went to see him today--but he's fine. Given that he's still growing, doesn't have a strong hind end yet, and may be prone to UFP/EPSM, I'm still concerned. He's getting lots of hill work and trotting over ground poles.

Good luck to everyone dealing with their stifle problems :)

Pippigirl
Apr. 16, 2007, 11:29 PM
Yeh...count me in. About 4 years ago (or was it five?) my mare slipped on the ice and tore cartilage in her left stifle joint. We did three long months of stall rest, slowly bringing her back working in straight lines as much as possible (not easy to do in an arena...riding outside was almost impossible due to weather). After the three months the stifle was u/s and there was about 12% of scaring according to the vet's estimate.

I think we will have ongoing stifle issues... The vet didn't prescribe any injections or surgery back then. Every now and then she will 'tweak' the stifle and be off for a bit but then she recovers and gets over it. This winter I've been doing a lot of hacking and building up the stifles again on the road.
Trot and more trot...followed by ...more trot. I am able to jump a little bit, can work on flat work and do lots of hacking though so I'm ok with that.
Whatever my chestnut tb mare can do is ok by me!

CJ4ME
Apr. 17, 2007, 07:47 AM
CJ is on week 3 of stall rest and just got his third Adequan injection. He is walking much better. He was never lame at the walk but his stride seemed shorter. Now he is tracking up and overstriding.

Hand-prancing him has been an adventure. He is on Prolixin so he isn't insane...but if any other horse is in the ring and does anything except walk, CJ spins and bucks and hops on the end of the leadline.

I start undersaddle walking today....we will see how it goes....he might be wilder with me on his back.

April 26th is injection #2 and three days later we can TROT!

I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope he is sound.

vxf111
Apr. 17, 2007, 09:44 AM
Stifles... ugh...

I bought Shane when he was 4 and he had raced 3 times. When I bought him, he had a slightly loose stifle on the right side. I had him thoroughly vetted and had films of the stifle. Vet thought it was no big deal and it would tighten with exercise. Started him on Adequan and strengthening to keep that hind end fit.

And as long as I vigilantly worked that hind end -- he was healthy. It was always there and he did lock up sometimes when he had been in his stall for a while, but as long as I did 2-3 days of solid hillwork every week, the stifle was fine under saddle and he was able to jump around 2'6. It never fully tightened- the weakness was ALWAYS there-- but it was nearly unnoticeable and didn't affect him.

Flash forward through West Nile virus... he finally recovered and after the time off that stifle was very bad-- worse that it had been when I bought him. It locked up a lot, including undersaddle.

I had the joint internally blistered to tighten it. At first that had a huge effect, but it didn't seem to last more than a couple of weeks.

We also tried estarone, which didn't seem to work, at least that I could tell. It did make him a nutcase though :)

Fast forward through strangles, three infections of lyme, and several small injuries (abscessed hoof, abscessed tooth, and getting beat up in the pasture). Through it all, I was unable to ride him and that right stifle got worse and worse-- and the left one started to get sticky and locky too.

When I sould bring him back into work, he was not quite right and clearly uncomfortable. We tried everything to diagnose the problem.-- took film of everything. Discovered arthritis in the stifle and hocks. Injected the hocks-- he was much more comfortable-- but that sticky stifle would not go away no matter how hard we tried.

Sent him to New Bolton for a full workup. Spared no expense. Took xrays and ultrasound of EVERYTHING. There's not one specific thing wrong with him-- but he's falling apart all over. The stifles are arthritic, the hocks are arthritic, his back was sore, he's got foot problems (very very thin soles and no heel, can't seem to grow much either), he's got navicular changes up front (though, oddly, they blocked and that's the one thing that is NOT currently bothering him). Basicly his whole body is falling apart.

The best they can conclude is that the stifle has been bothering him all along but he just kept trucking through it. And he found ways to take the pressure off the stifle by putting it on his hocks and back. The lyme also really ravaged him and we'll never know what the long term effects of that are. We injected the hocks again, treated the lyme, and put him every so slowly back into work-- not sound. I retired him in December. He's 8.

Living out, his stifles are MUCH less locky-- but he's still not sound. He is happy though. I love Shane and I would never undo the good experiences I've had (can I undo the vet bills?) but I will never, never, never take a chance on stifles again. Hocks? Yes. Stifles. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Good luck to all of you in the clique, I am sure you will have better outcomes.

SparklePlenty
Apr. 17, 2007, 09:57 AM
Hey everyone!!

Sparkle is on her second round of stall rest right now.. and it's been a long road. Originally she was stalled for 2 weeks, hand walked twice a day only. Well we thought she would have been ok to go out part of the day. WRONG!! One of the rotten mares:lol: in the field ran her into the ground.. ughh.. and we ended up back at square 2. I say that because when we went down to leesburg to see the docs Sparks was only 1/5.. and was sound until a deep stifle flex was conducted. We re-injected her into the 3 parts of the stifle and now here were are 2 weeks later.. SOUND :yes: :winkgrin: and are slowly working back to getting that muscling up in the stifle area . She will re-evaluated for turn out tomorrow on the lungle line.. She hates being stalled, but so far it's for the best. Especially with the weather how its been around here.

Anyone have any advice or insight to this?? I'm worried she's only sound because of all the steroids. I know when i hurt myself and they injected me i didnt feel any pain. That's how i ended up a surgical canidate. I'm soo ready to start riding her again.. i just dont want to hurt her!!

Oh! We are riding again, and doing ONLY striaght lines. Walking 20min or so.. then short spurts of trotting. My trainer def. thinks it's time to start building her up again. Thanks!

bluroan
Apr. 17, 2007, 03:20 PM
Injured stifle clique---Yes:eek:

10 year old gelding who ONLY limped while I was posting on the right diagonal??:confused:

Had the vet down, did full x-rays (nothing shows up), injected hocks & fetlocks, on Adequan monthly--no improvement.

Then he starts falling down while cantering to the left. It gets so bad that I'm nervous to canter at all and he's upset.

Vet diagnoses locking stifle. We started the Estrone injections and they are awesome. I give a series of 3 shots (1/week) about every other month--best of all it's relatively cheap. This also fixed the mysterious limping at the trot (only while posting mind you).

Feuerlilie
Apr. 18, 2007, 08:50 AM
I'll join!

My mare was very lame on RH...long story short vets suspected she has damaged the tissue in the stifles joint.....so all 3 joints were injected with Depo-medrol and a concoction of other steroids 4 weeks ago.

She was on stall rest for 3 days then Iw as to ride her at a walk for half an hour each day adn build her up.

She hasnt taken a lame step but did feel off tonight. When posting ont he right diagonaly she felt flat in her trot. I have been riding mainly straight lines...just started some circle work the last few days. I havent lunged her at all over the last few weeks either. Anyway I hopped off and gave a a teeny lunge, was great to the elft, and flatter to the right like she didnt really want to bring the RH up and down underneath her.

I am panicing a little....gave her a little bute tonight and will walk only for the next couple of days. Is this normal to have an off day after the injections after doing so well????

kiwifruit
Apr. 18, 2007, 07:04 PM
Feuerlilie, I surprized that your vet suggested injecting the stifle when there might be damaged soft? tissue in the joint. I know when my horse was diagnosed with meniscus and soft tissue damage to the stifle my vet said I had two choices 1. inject with HA and steroid, put back into use and hope for the best but realize that I may be causing more harm in the joint by continued riding 2. HA only injection and rest, rest, rest and give time to heal. Now after five weeks my vet told me that if he does not get any better by 3 months, maybe we could inject because it might be a chronic thing rather than just an initial injury. Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

CJ4ME
Apr. 18, 2007, 07:11 PM
I walked CJ under saddle (well, under butt...I rode bareback) for 10 minutes...I thought he seemed flatter and lost his hind a little. He is totally fine handwalked. I felt pretty worried, too, so I can relate Feuer...

I wonder if the circles and/or lunging are too much strain? My vet said CJ had to be able to go 45 minutes on the flat, daily for 2 weeks before I could consider collection, circles or lunging...

I think I would take it back a step. and maybe consider US and Xray. If it is a ligament injury that usually means months of rest...

Feuerlilie
Apr. 18, 2007, 09:54 PM
According to the vets...my mare was chonic...it wasnt her ligaments and the xrays came back clean except for a teeny bit of oesteo ont eh RH...but wouldnt cause any pain.

There was the option of the steroid injections...or 6 months rest...or an arthrscopy which they didnt want to do just as yet. They really wanted to see how the steroids have worked. They didnt actually finda nything conclusive and "thought" it was soft tissue damage.

She has been fantastic until last night. Anyway I gave her 5 mil of bute last night and had her in her stall for 12 hours. Thsi morning I gave her a teeny lunge and she was fine again. wheww.

CJ....I wouldnt be lunging at all or doing ANY circle work. Lots of walking and when he feels right a littel trot. I think this is why my mare was sore last night...the day before I rode her on a harder surface and trotted her in big 30m circles...this couldve been it.

Kiwifruit...what is the HA? My option was the No1 option...adn it seemed to be working...just gave me a hreat stopper last night thats all....Apparently the drugs that were injected into Bella last around 3 months (if they do work) then we will know whether we will need to do an arthroscopy. But according to the vets I needed to get ehr stronger through the backend so the muscles support the jjoint. I havent seen any dropping of her backend lately either which leads me to believe she is gettting stronger//...here is hoping and jingles to everyone with stifle problems. It is SO frustrating:eek:

mkmcin
Apr. 21, 2007, 09:27 PM
I have an OTTB who is not lame, but has weak stifles. Any good excercises besides walking/trotting in straight lines and hills. Fortunately for "Tommy", we have direct access to tons of trails with gradual hills, so we never has to go in a circle...

Feuerlilie
Apr. 21, 2007, 09:40 PM
mkm.....walking over poles...and my trainer told me yesterday I am to...ride her on bitumen at a good walk for about 20 mins but nice and round so she is using her stifle and hock joints...then ride her on the arena with bursts of forward (not running)...and then walk her again on the bitumen.

Dune
Apr. 22, 2007, 01:03 PM
We also tried estarone, which didn't seem to work, at least that I could tell. It did make him a nutcase though :)

.


Really, the ones I've seen on Estrone all got very quiet, in fact I've been told that some hunter folks use it just for that reason.

Feuerlilie
Apr. 23, 2007, 12:58 AM
Just contacted my vet about the estarone...they dont use it anymore as studies have shown it doesnt really work...PLUS when it did work in some cases they werent completely sure it wasnt becoz the horse had been worked and conditioned in the period of use of the esterone:cry:

Dune
Apr. 23, 2007, 01:29 PM
Just contacted my vet about the estarone...they dont use it anymore as studies have shown it doesnt really work...PLUS when it did work in some cases they werent completely sure it wasnt becoz the horse had been worked and conditioned in the period of use of the esterone:cry:


Yeah, well, I beg to differ. :yes: I've personally seen it work on several different horses and the sporthorse lameness vets in my (very competitive) neck of the woods use quite frequently. How experienced is your vet? :confused:

vxf111
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:46 AM
Really, the ones I've seen on Estrone all got very quiet, in fact I've been told that some hunter folks use it just for that reason.

Shane may have weird chemistry. BOSS made him lose his everloving pony mind (he was ready to jump out of his skin the entire time he was on BOSS).

Ace doesn't sedate him, just makes him angry.

He seemed jumpy and overly sensitive on the esterone.

SparklePlenty
Apr. 24, 2007, 11:34 AM
I'm soo frustrated right now with this whole stifle thing! The weather is finally nice and warm.. but i'm soo worried about riding or doing anything with her. I can get on an walk around, mostly straight line.. but for only like 20mins. She's now turned out and seems to be "sound" for now.. But sometimes i notice that she will still walk by tucking her back leg inside instead of straight forward. Its just like after all of these diagnostics i've done how do i know we've made any progress. Hell she was only a 1/5 when i toook her down to leesburg to get looked at. <sigh> any advice? I'm working on getting the vet back out this week to do a re-eval. But i just feel like if it wasn't that severe to begin with, shouldn't it be better 2months later?? Or am i completely wrong here??

Dune
Apr. 24, 2007, 01:02 PM
Shane may have weird chemistry. BOSS made him lose his everloving pony mind (he was ready to jump out of his skin the entire time he was on BOSS).

Ace doesn't sedate him, just makes him angry.

He seemed jumpy and overly sensitive on the esterone.

Your horse is funny. :p (don't tell him I said that) :winkgrin:

Dune
Apr. 24, 2007, 01:05 PM
I'm soo frustrated right now with this whole stifle thing! The weather is finally nice and warm.. but i'm soo worried about riding or doing anything with her. I can get on an walk around, mostly straight line.. but for only like 20mins. She's now turned out and seems to be "sound" for now.. But sometimes i notice that she will still walk by tucking her back leg inside instead of straight forward. Its just like after all of these diagnostics i've done how do i know we've made any progress. Hell she was only a 1/5 when i toook her down to leesburg to get looked at. <sigh> any advice? I'm working on getting the vet back out this week to do a re-eval. But i just feel like if it wasn't that severe to begin with, shouldn't it be better 2months later?? Or am i completely wrong here??


I noticed that your vet did injections, but did he/she ever do any diagnostics?? Do you know why she was lame? (ie tear/arthritis,etc.) Also, if it's not an obvious/acute injury, sometimes these stifle issues don't resolve until you put them back to work in a rehab program specifically designed to strengthen the hind end. (not just regular riding)

SparklePlenty
Apr. 24, 2007, 02:28 PM
Dune-
We went down to leesburg for diagnostics.. we did a series of xrays and ultrasounds. Both came back completely clear... Heck, when they lunged her initally she was sound. LOL.. But once they did a deeper flexon of the stifle joint she tested postitve.. but a 1/5 according to the paperwork they sent home. So they called it a "strain" to the stifle joint because there wasnt anyting visably that can be seen. So they did 3 injections of steriods into the middle, inside and outside of the stifle joint to hopefully remove pain so it can be rehabed and strenthgened as well as 2weeks of stall rest. I just feel like i either need to ride her more, or get the vet out and re-evaluate where she is at. As of now she is sound.. out in the field and is happy as can be. I just feel liike... "now what?" ya know... I've never dealt w/an injury like this before and i feel like i'm hearing different things from different people.

Berry0317
Apr. 24, 2007, 02:48 PM
My horse had been a great hunter for all his years. He won his 3' adult class in Sept 2005 and then blew out his stifle in a freak pasture incident (fell, got up wrong, we'll never know) in Oct 2005. He had all the "treatments" from all the previous posts. We did all except the surgery, because that was very expensive for a 17 year old horse. He has been "retired" for a year now and just goes out with his buddies. He has recently started his new carrer as a walk/trot horse with a 6 year old, and he couldn't be more happy. Keep this in mind when you're putting your horse through all his rehab.

CJ4ME
Apr. 24, 2007, 06:26 PM
Okay...so I am allowed to walk CJ under saddle for 25 minutes (straight lines) daily...but I am still handwalking him. And in one week he gets his okay to trot (HA injections on Thursday)....and I am totally scared to do it.

I am afraid he will be lame...afraid of what I will see.

He is walking better than before...long, swingy, confident stride with a nice overstep and equal on both sides...but it felt stiffer the one time I sat on him and walked....

I am just taking this slower than recommendations...I don't want it to all be for nothing! :sadsmile:

Ugghhhhhh......

tradewind
Apr. 24, 2007, 07:45 PM
Some vets will internally blister the stifles if the estrone does not work, I however have not had personal experience with this. When initially diagnosising my guy, he went and saw a vet at Fair Hill, who was very nice and explained things in great detail. He said if the estrone did not work, we could try internally blistering them. Which hopefully since things appear to be going well, I am not going to have to try. I think patience is the key in dealing with stifle issues.

kiwifruit
Apr. 24, 2007, 08:31 PM
I just got back from New Bolton where they us my guy's stifle and said it looks the same as it did 45 days ago. They then said this was to be expected although they are not sure what is wrong with the stifle because there are no tears to any of the ligaments but he does block so they assume its gotta be the stifle. They suggested shock wave therapy since it has pain relieveing effects so I tried it today. They said I should see results immediately if it works. I'm frustrated as well because he does not have an acute injury and I'm wondering if this is just chronic arthritic stuff and stall rest plus limited handwalking is actually making the problem worse. I'm willing to give it another 45 days and then seek out other options such as HA injections with steroid and controlled work to build up hindend. The drama continues....

Meadow36
Apr. 24, 2007, 09:50 PM
My horse's stifle problems have snowballed into a variety of other problems, including a dropped hip, shoulder issues and a bad splint, all due from her compensating for the stifles. Today we adjusted her again (for the third time), put the hip back in, fixed the shoulder, and did whole body acupuncture. Then we injected both stifles. The left hind was so bad that it spurted out a huge amount of fluid. This is a 6 year old horse that has only been in training for 8 months, and is yet to do any strenous showing or jumping (just a moderate training program). I am changing the shoes again to see if that helps. It's all very depressing.

My bill should be at $2000+ but the vet is a friend so I'm only at half that amount. Still a lot of money for me and I haven't ridden her in an month. Ugh. :(

Feuerlilie
Apr. 24, 2007, 11:11 PM
Dune......she is the BEST in West Australia...they brought her over from over east becoz she knew her stuff.:yes:

SHe seems to know what she is talking about....and I have to trust someone hey? She thought my horse was a very soft horse (as she is 4 and very very big boned) and basically now needs conditioning.

She has shown a lot of improvement just the last week, so I am incoroparting more exercises into her program.

Dune-
We went down to leesburg for diagnostics.. we did a series of xrays and ultrasounds. Both came back completely clear... Heck, when they lunged her initally she was sound. LOL.. But once they did a deeper flexon of the stifle joint she tested postitve.. but a 1/5 according to the paperwork they sent home. So they called it a "strain" to the stifle joint because there wasnt anyting visably that can be seen. So they did 3 injections of steriods into the middle, inside and outside of the stifle joint to hopefully remove pain so it can be rehabed and strenthgened as well as 2weeks of stall rest. I just feel like i either need to ride her more, or get the vet out and re-evaluate where she is at. As of now she is sound.. out in the field and is happy as can be. I just feel liike... "now what?" ya know... I've never dealt w/an injury like this before and i feel like i'm hearing different things from different people.

Sparkle....I so know the feeling...really I do. It is so hard to get answer adn when u do it is conflicting.

Truly the most help I seemed to have was on the weekend from my trainer. She told me ...You need to have a PLAN...and stick to it.

Well my PLAN A at the start of the year was to get my hrose ready for the Youn Dressage Horse champs...but that aint working...I told her!

So anyway my PLAN B is underway.
And thisis with help from my trainer that has dealt with a lot of stifle injuries. (she was the one that told me to enquire about esterone inj) but obviously we cant do that and the vet wont operate on my mare as the stifle isnt actually locking ...only loose.

My PLAN B is to ride her 2 days on one day off. On her day off, I handlead her onto my arena...and walk her over low poles at first and then higher poles raised off the ground...making sure she picks up thos hindlegs and puts them down again. Then I back her up over a pole on te ground so she HAS to pick up the hindlegs! The on the lunge in between doing these exercises make her power walk with sidereins on so she lossens and steps under.

When riding her.....I am to ride her very roudn and low on the bitumen road for 15 to 20 mins....then rider her on my arena...trot to walk and then to trot....so she HAS to use her hindend...and she HAS to be low and round so her back is up and the hindlegs under. Then I can have acanter should she feel good......but this harder work is not to exceed 20 mins....then I walk her for about 15 mins.

CJ4ME
Apr. 24, 2007, 11:27 PM
Tried to walk CJ under saddle today...should have known it wouldn't work when he pranced up to the mounting block FULL of excitement to be ridden again. We lasted 1/2 the length of the arena before he started spinning and crowhopping with all his excess energy. We will try again tomorrow....

Walked him by hand and he was so up he nipped me on the breast..in a particularly sensitive spot. Ohhhhh, he was in TROUBLE! :mad: :mad:

Feuerlilie
Apr. 25, 2007, 01:56 AM
Ow....Cj...that wouldve been painful!

Have you taken him off all of his "goodies" ....Can you saddle him up and then walk him while u are ridign?

SparklePlenty
Apr. 25, 2007, 08:59 AM
Hey guys...

Thank you for the advice to all...

Feuer- I def. had a plan.... just like you my plan A changed. lol.. My plan B is to ride her for 10-12 min at a walk. I start letting her just carry my weight around for about 5min then putting her into a frame for the other minutes as we walk around. If she feels ok, then we will trot only one long side of the arena and walk back around .. i will do this both directions. after about 10mins or so of this i call it quits. Hopefully over time those time increments will increase.

Over all this just sucks, like the rest of everyone i'm scared to do to much to fast. But "knock on wood" it was never a serious injury to start with ( according to diagnostics!) so hopefully the time off she has gotten has done her well. Now it's time to rebuild.

I'm also in the search for a "miracle" joint supplement :lol: if anyone has found it.. PM me!!! :lol: :D :winkgrin: :lol:

Oldenburg Mom
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:51 AM
Well my problem child is just about ready to be started again. Vet has stated walk only until he can go for 1 hour walking.

Important signs to watch for: tiredness (obviously); crankiness.

Most important--this is supposed to be a pleasurable activity!!! :yes:

Feuerlilie
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:10 AM
Sparkle...yes, that is how I started again with my girl. Just trot in straight lines. Dont ask too much of her at first, just let her go at her rhythm. Definitely watch for crankiness.....this is whta my displayed at first when she started to go sore in the first place.

I walked moslty for the first 2 1/2 weeks with some trotting. And built the trotting up each time. I actually walked her every day for 20-30 mins and built that upt to 45 mins wiht some trotting in the middle.

It is now the 4 week mark and she has progressed well....now using the poles...adn doing lots of trot/walk/trot transtions to get her hindend working and the stifle joints bending.

I have my big girl on a joint supplement from Advanced Feeds here in West OZ. It has glucosymine...msm...and vit c. I have also started feeding her Rosehip Tea wiht her feed, apparently it helps the joints absorb the glucosymine better.

Good luck guys. Oh also must add that once you have got your horses back into a routine of walking and some trotting ...if you have access to a bitumen road walking at a brisk pace is beneficial for the bones for 15 mins or so.

vxf111
Apr. 25, 2007, 05:43 PM
I know Shane is weird, that's just him :)

Equine Obsession
Apr. 29, 2007, 08:35 PM
Is there someone in this clique who has experienced a clicking stifle?

This just started happening in the past 4 weeks in the BL stifle. No lameness or sign of soreness. When the farrier came out he just commented that it was clicking and said nothing more, which made me think it was okay. Buuut I'm a tad overly paranoid that my horse has every possible disease. Is this just arthritis or a larger problem.

What's your opinion?


P.S. 12yo QH worked as a ponyhorse on the track during the season for the past 6 years or so.

anniesmom
May. 10, 2007, 04:25 PM
hi i just joined the forum today and found this thread.

so id like to join in.

14yr old percheron x id mare who i have owned for 4 yrs this september, come this december she will have spent 3 yrs attending vet hospital for numerous problems.

at the moment her current problem is damage to the meniscus.

in december she was scanned to check her torn stifle tendon on the outside left leg which had happened april last year this was healed nicely after small paddock rest.

they found inflammation on the inside of the stifle and injected this and sent us home, for 3 weeks she was sound then seemed worse than ever so we went back for a further scan.

this time they could see a black area of meniscus on the inside of the stifle, we were sent home for paddock rest but 3 weeks before going back for further scan i started to ride her in straight lines under saddle for 10 mins.

2 weeks ago we went back for another scan to find nothing had changed, the black area of meniscus was exactly the same.

they administered shock wave therapy and on monday we go back for a 2nd and then 15 days later a 3rd treatment, they will then also inject the area as well.

i asked about an operation but the vets said they didnt think it would apply to her. they didnt want to give swt but i insisted we try something.
they then told me there were 2 small ligaments in the stifle area that they cannot see on a scan and if these were damaged its possible the swt might work. but if it does not, thats it she will always be lame :no:

i have to hand walk for 5 mins a day at the moment and yes every time she has had a scan they have shaved the area.

what i havnt been able to understand is it does not appear that the meniscus is torn or ragged just a black area as though it has no blood supply.

kiwifruit
May. 10, 2007, 08:40 PM
Hey Anniesmom

Sorry to hear about your guy! I have a similar problem if you've been following along with the posts. My horse has a damaged meniscus that I've been resting for about 2 months. I just tried shock wave the other week and it seems to be working. I'd be curious to see if your guy responds to it. What are they going to inject the stifle with? I'm assuming just HA because any kind of steroid will retard the healing of the meniscus, unless the vets think it is a chronic condition, then you are just trying to make your horse comfortable. My vets are unsure if my guy has a chronic issue or acute, but I decided to try rest first before I inject with HA and steroid. Believe me, it is very frustrating and expensive! But keep faith and know that time does help all injuries.

Feuerlilie
May. 10, 2007, 09:32 PM
Update on my mare!

Well things are coming along well...and we have started cantering!! Complete with 2 flying changes (unasked for but clean)

I suspect the steroids that were injected wore off a few weeks ago when she looked a little off, but I have taken it slow and went back to walking and strengthening her backend muscles.

Her trot is improving daily....befoe she would find it hard to lunge ont he right rein in the rot...couldnt track up etc. But last night I lunges for the first time in a few weeks and she is looking good. There is still a little weakness back there than i can just see.

Kiwifruit...talking about chronic...this si how the vets described my mares soreness to me....she had a few different steroids injectied into th stifle joints and I hink it has cleared up any inflammation that was there.

Equine Obsession...in regards to the clickign stifles. This may be becoz your horses stifles are a bit loose...my mare is still clicking behind, but not lame.
I would add some cod liver oil or apple cider vinegar to her diet. Do you feed joint food?

Anywya I have training tests to ride with my mare tomorrow..wish me luck!!

Oh Almost forgot to say.....the BIGGEST improvement in my mare came when I started with a new trainer who is a big believer in long and low...and lot of walking with their head as close to the ground as possible........and the poll moving as well as maintaining a huge walk. Sounds easy? It isnt!! :D

SparklePlenty
May. 11, 2007, 09:26 AM
Feuerlilie soo glad to hear you guys are doing well!! :) One day we will be there too!!

Sparks is finally sound at a walk.. and is doing minimal trotting. Sadly she is still not sound at the trot.. not horribly off, but not 100%. She is happy going forward and is willing.. so i can tell a difference in her behavior so i know she's getting better. Just taking it slowly.. My trainer says to just keep what im' doing and building her back up. The vet comes back out June 5for another check up. Sparks steriods have worn off.. so i expeceted the sorness to return.. even so, i'm still frustrated.

The vets found nothing.. all xrays, ultrasounds.. clean.. so why the hell is this taking so long to heal if there is NOTHING there!! Ughh.. i attribute it to her age (15) and maybe it was a worse sprain/strain than orginally anticpated. I've also put her on cosequin and MSM..

<sigh> Oh well.. there's always next year.. lol

Feuerlilie
May. 11, 2007, 09:35 AM
Just keep on plugging away Sparkle.....it takes a while for them tog et over these things. Can I ask how long it took for the steroids to wear off?

SparklePlenty
May. 11, 2007, 11:26 AM
It's been 5 weeks this past wed. since she had the injections... the vets said it would last between 4-6 weeks. But i also noticed her "way of going" went from her being "super sound" and not feeling pain to being aggitated slightly after some minimal trot work.

I plan to just keep going ahead w/what i'm doing now. She wasnt sound before at the walk and now she is.. so that's an improvement.. Hopefully the trot will come around with time. Just flat, straight lines..

But like i said before it's just frustrating for the vets to be like we think it's just a basic sprain/strain and she's still not sound. I just realized it's only been two months.. (march) lol.. guess i'm just hating not being able to enjoy this great weather.. :)

Feuerlilie
May. 11, 2007, 11:42 AM
Just keep on walking her Sparkle....keep her on a routine is the best thing for her...walk her over poles and things on the ground so you can get the joints bending.

It has been 6 weeks for my girl since her injections....the vet said they could last up to 3 months but wasnt banking on it. I myself feel as though they mustve worn off a couple of weeks ago when I started seeing some dippiness in her trot......but now with work Im not seeing it so much any more. I have also noticed she is droping a little more through the stifle but not a much as when she was chronic.
She is sound (cross fingers and touch wood) and seems better/looser when worked in 2 days in succession.

Rockfish
May. 12, 2007, 12:03 AM
well, it's been 50 some odd days and Rocky has been sound at the walk, trot and now after light canter introductions. Considering how fast he's progressed, I'm figuring the originial diagnosis wasn't as dire as originially though. Heck he was sound 6 days into stall rest when he decided to make a jail break and run to the field.

He's starting group turn out tomorrow, so I'm keeping the fingers crossed that there's not something underlying still that he may agitate.

anniesmom
May. 12, 2007, 08:31 AM
hi kiwifruit

they didnt say what type of injection it will be, and sometimes things get a bit lost in the translation from my knowledge of spanish to english.:)

thing is if paddock rest was going to help she had nearly a years rest for the tendon injury, so if the meniscal was going to heal i think it would have.

i have a dvd of her being ridden 8yrs ago that was only given to me recently and without a doubt you can see the problem on her hind leg then.

so i have to presume the meniscal injury is a very old one, like her other injurys she had when i got her.. that were never attended to.

quick rundown on her injurys when i got her .

very undernourished and thin known to be dangerous and uncontrollable.
laminitis both front hooves.

severe wld/seedy toe front right large resection.

sacroiliac out of place jagged bone socket, kissing spines believed to be because of sacroiliac injury. right hind.

left hind pedal bone abscess, loss of outside wing. canker in this hoof.

torn outside stifle tendon very large tear, thought to be old injury. left hind.

having dealt with all these issues through various different treatments she was found to still be lame and meniscal damage was found.

we had swt for sacroiliac, kissing spines and abscess which worked brilliantly and she has not had any further problems with them.

fingers crossed swt works this time for her.

Feuerlilie
May. 12, 2007, 08:36 AM
Im crossing fingers for everyone....hope all your horses are improviing ;)
Anymore updates anyone?

Show_hunters
May. 12, 2007, 07:15 PM
It appears that my horse has a stifle injury. I'll know for sure on Tuesday. My horses is problem is sorta werid, and I am not sure what is going on with him. Any how here are the basics:

Horse passes tradintional flextions, however with a modified flextion on the right hind ie. holding right hind leg away from horses body, while holding foot by the pastern a few inches from ground, while pressing on his patella for a seconds and then troting him off he goes lame/off.

If horse is undersaddle at the walk looks fine, tracking to right at the trot or canter he feels as if his right hind is short and high (also feels hocky). Tracking to the left, I have a different horse.

Vet feels it's a stifle injury, however we are going to do a block on Tuesday along with other tests, etc.

Otherwise horse is fit/ in shape an is fine. For me this is a first, I have never had a problem like this before.

Oldenburg Mom
May. 14, 2007, 11:53 AM
Anymore updates anyone?

Yup, here's one. :( That pretty much tells the whole story. *sigh*

He's still clicking away. And when he's working, it's as if he's lifting his entire HIP to walk. Much much different than the right hind.

So.... back to handwalking.

anniesmom
May. 14, 2007, 12:07 PM
we went back to the vet hospital today, for another swt treatment.

she hasnt shown any improvement since the last treatment so i asked if they could do a check up xray of the hoof on the same leg as she had previously had a pedal bone abscess 2 years ago.
they found bone spurs on the front of p2 and inflammation of the ligaments from the front and around the sides:cry: these were not on the xrays 2 yrs ago, so they think the only explanation is the way she has been load bearing due to the torn stifle tendon and meniscal problem.:eek:

i did ask if they had any bionic legs:winkgrin: but no got to persevere with the one she has they said.:sadsmile:

so we are trying swt on this problem as well and in 2 weeks time when she goes back for swt they will inject tildren into the area and give a dose intravenously as well.

i showed them the dvd i had been given recently and they were amazed that she had this leg problem when she was 6 and her previous owners never noticed and carried on riding her.

it is very noticeable on the dvd and you can see she is taking the weight onto her front right which will explain the problem she has always had in that foot of laminitis.

i hope all your horses are having a bit better luck...

SparklePlenty
May. 14, 2007, 02:58 PM
What does SWT really do for an injured stifle?? Sparks didn't have any damage (that showed up on diagnostics).. so do you think that would be something worth trying? And what does SWT cost... Sparks is NOT insured.

FLAbreds
May. 14, 2007, 03:57 PM
I'll chime in here. My 8yr old QH has OCDs in both stifles and bone abnormalities in the left stifle. When I bought him I was told it was arthritis but he'd stay sound on Gluquestrian and bi-annual injections. I didn't get a pre-purchase done on him, dummy me, and he was becoming more and more unsound following that protocol. Had the vet out to do xrays, found the OCDs and other changes. Vet prescribed a round of Adequan, injected both stifles again and told me about OCD pellets (Optimal Cartilage Development). It's been since January that he's been on the pellets and he is SOUND. He's ridden 3 days per week and gets plenty of turnout.

I plan on having his stifles xrayed again soon to see what, if anything, these pellets have done.

mbhorse
May. 14, 2007, 04:21 PM
Oh what a timely thread, unfortunately. Mine was diagnosed on Friday with a stifle injury. Xrays were good, but US showed a chip, floaters, and possible fraying of the meniscus. He's being referred to NC State for another US and possible scope surgery to remove the chip and clean up the floaters. Injury happened the beginning of April when he got his leg stuck in a stall wall at a show. Even after over a month off, he still flexed 3/5 in the stifle. After a joint block he jogged 90% sound. Has anyone else had experience with surgery to clean out chips and floaters? We may also consider IRAP treatment as well.

CJ4ME
May. 14, 2007, 09:48 PM
We are on under saddle walking and round pen turnout and down to every other week Adequan. Doing a little trot this week which will be the real test.

I am freaked out a little...I will be so bummed if he isn't sound.

kiwifruit
May. 15, 2007, 09:05 PM
Hey Sparkle

Shock wave treatment might help. It did help my guy. The folks at New Bolton said they tried in on their knees and helped tremendously, so why not on a horse? I think I was the first one that they've tried at New Bolton so they were pretty skeptical. At first it did little, but about a week later, I saw a good improvement. I'm going for another treatment later in the month. My bill for an ultrasound and shock wave was about 500.00. Not cheap but might be worth a try. I would ship to a hospital if you can, New Bolton said the portable shock wave stations are not that powerful for the stifle area. I will keep this post updated as we progress.

CJ4ME
May. 15, 2007, 09:26 PM
Hooray Rockfish!

Today the saddle fitter came out and noticed that CJ is really sore on his left back. He hasn't been ridden (saddle fits anyways) and has never been back sore before. He has been on round pen turnout and walking only for 8 weeks.

He is barefoot for the first time...maybe he needs his feet balanced and to be shod again? He is a TB is tender feet. His hips looked uneven.

Do you think the back soreness could be related to his stifle? Its his right stifle and left back.

Rockfish
May. 16, 2007, 01:39 AM
^ Thanks!


Hopefully we didn't just have ourselves a setback-he came in this am, with a big knot on his butt cheek...not stifle related, but same leg; it looks like one of the new pasture mates landed him a kick. He was just a tad sore on it, but he was much better after bute, a cold hose, some surpass, and a light(er) hack. We'll see how he does tomorrow. boys.

SparklePlenty
May. 16, 2007, 10:34 AM
Hey Sparkle

Shock wave treatment might help. It did help my guy. The folks at New Bolton said they tried in on their knees and helped tremendously, so why not on a horse? I think I was the first one that they've tried at New Bolton so they were pretty skeptical. At first it did little, but about a week later, I saw a good improvement. I'm going for another treatment later in the month. My bill for an ultrasound and shock wave was about 500.00. Not cheap but might be worth a try. I would ship to a hospital if you can, New Bolton said the portable shock wave stations are not that powerful for the stifle area. I will keep this post updated as we progress.

Thanks!! :) I've considered all possibilities for treatments.. including trying OCD (joint supplement) which is wayyyy out of my price range, but seems to work very well.

I'm afraid to post this. but.. we went out on the trails for the past two days and sparks was soo much fun!! Wanting to go, and run.. i had to really hold her from cantering off to catch my friends horse!!! :lol: We really didn't do much... but were out for a loonngg time. and yesterday she was still sound!!<fingers crossed> Ok.. let the bad luck rain down on me now.. :winkgrin:

Keep us posted!!

Feuerlilie
May. 16, 2007, 10:54 AM
Sparks...if she is okay today, then she is fine after your big ride....sometime you have to push them a littel to know your boundaries...if u know what i mean.

Anyway good luck!

ddashaq
May. 16, 2007, 12:48 PM
Looks like I am going to be joining this clique. Had the vet out today to reevaluate for lameness and my gelding flexed positive in his left stifle. She did rads and I will know this afternoon what is going on. I am told by a friend who is a vet student that I should be hoping for arthritis since he has been off for quite a while. (Initially the lameness was thought to be in his hock.) Apparently anything soft that has been going on this long probably will not be very treatable. He is only 7 and had always been sound as a rock, so frustrating!:(

SparklePlenty
May. 16, 2007, 01:59 PM
ddashaq -
Sorry to hear about your guy, especially him being so young. Hopefully it will be minimal damange (if any). But your vet friend was right... you can only wish for arthritis, other wise plan for a nice slow, long recovery. But your at a great board for discussing this sort of stuff! :) Jingles to you guys..

CJ4ME
May. 16, 2007, 02:07 PM
Sadly, this clique just keeps growing. Today I noticed that when CJ rolled and got up to canter off he kind of bunny hopped and clearly protected his right stifle. Is this because his back hurts? Did he reinjure? He had been much better until Monday.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I want this to be OVER!

Vet coming out for Chiro on the sore back. Might give him some Bute after his adjustment and handwalk him for a few days and then see the lay of the land.

Is operating on Bone Spurs effective?

ddashaq
May. 16, 2007, 09:24 PM
I hear you! Unfortunately, I am just beginning this joyous journey. The vet did not get back to me today so I still do not know if it is arthritis or if we have to ultra sound it.

I hope CJ feels better after his chiro!:)

Rockfish
May. 17, 2007, 12:56 AM
well, Rocky jogged Ok today, so it looks like the as* kick he got in the field wasn't as bad as it looked.

anniesmom
May. 17, 2007, 08:42 AM
although my girl is still lame in her hind leg because of the new fetlock problem.
to day i noticed that she seemed to be walking better than previously in her stifle area, if that makes sense.:)

she has had 2 swt on the meniscal area and there seems to be a difference this time..fingers crossed and hopeful.:yes: :yes: :yes:

monday i was really upset by the new problem but today i am hopefull again:lol:

ddashaq
May. 17, 2007, 08:56 AM
My vet called me late last night and said that Shaq's rads are clean as a whistle. Sooo, it's definately ligamentous. She wants him buted at the lowest dose that makes him confortable and decrease his rides to twice a week. No big hills (I am in Iowa so that is NOT a problem!) and no jumping. She said that he could well come sound again, but it could take a long, long time. I am going to have a chiro/ accupunturist out as well. Again, I say, how frustrating!!!!:mad:

I hope other people's horses are having a better day than mine!

SparklePlenty
May. 17, 2007, 09:32 AM
Again, I say, how frustrating!!!!:mad:


I'll second that motion...:yes: :mad:

But... it could be worse.. i've realized that. It could have really been worse. Severly torn meniscus, never be able to ride them again..etc..

Yeah.. i'll take my long slow rehab after i think about the "what if's" of a stifle injury.

Feuerlilie
May. 17, 2007, 11:33 AM
Thats right...the bes thing we can all do is count ourselves lucky that our horses arent so bad that rest and times and vet bills! will not solve.

Best to take it slow now and have your horse going soundly down the track.

Count our blessing that we even have these beautiful creatures in our lives.....how miserable they must feel to be sore. :( I am certainly doing my best to make sure my mares problems do not re occur.

Things are looking up for us.:)

And the vets said it was chronic! I am starting to wonder that they really didnt know what was making her sore (we know the stifle area) but they relaly couldnt pinpoint what it was! They injected her 3 stifle joints and hoped for t he best I think!
Touch wood...she feel fantastic and doesnt seem sore at all...still a littel clicky and drops a littel through the stifles but his is slowly going :D

SparklePlenty
May. 18, 2007, 10:51 PM
I give up!!!!!! LOL..

Sparks is lame, i quit. i give up.. Called Leesburg again today to discuss what's going on. He says since the orginal diagnostics came out clean.. maybe we are dealing in the wrong area. The injury that presented itself at the time was stifle.. and i agree with that. But guess there is/was something else going on.

Shoot me now.. my checkbook can't handle this. I call to make a follow up appt. on monday. :(

Uhhgggg....

CJ4ME
May. 18, 2007, 11:01 PM
Going to Disneyland? :no: Paying my Vet bills! :mad:

:cry: Sparkle, I am with you. Sadly, I fantasize about winning the lottery so that I can afford my vet bills! No wild trips to Fiji for me...

Okay, so the chiro completely worked on CJs back pain! I admit I was a major skeptic. Yesterday he was worse than ever. So, so, so sore if you ran your fingers along his back.

My vet/chiro gets up on a bucket to get higher on him to do the first adjustment and notices that the top of his back has 4 parallel scrapes where one of his pasture buddies probably reared and landed on him or bit him or something. So she decided he was probably both out of adjustment AND pretty bruised up. NO WONDER!!

Anyways, she adjusted his back (said everything else was okay) and went on her way. Today I went in and Voila! No back flinching! I was almost scared to check, and maybe he will be bad again tomorrow. But he was moving better, really springy and cheery and much looser than yesterday! :yes:

Hooray! At least something worked right this time!

Rockfish
May. 18, 2007, 11:08 PM
oh God I think I may have jinxed my self. Rocky was doing this wierd little i-think-i-want-to-spep-into-the canter manuever thing while we were trotting today, but when I got off and checked him (twice i did this) he was moving fine. Maybe he did want to canter?

Brio
May. 19, 2007, 01:17 AM
CJ - did she give you stretches and exercises to do? my vet/chiro always gives us stuff to do at home to help make the adjustment hold longer.

ivy62
May. 19, 2007, 02:40 PM
Well I think I belong in this group....I am Ivy and I live in NY with Hurdle my oTTB, We have had many issues since I got him but this just seems to what may be wrong with him. Last october he torqued himself in the field and seemed like he had a hitch in his giddy up on the right hind. X-rays were clear. he went back to work and then got hurt were stitches were required, different leg, then the winter set in and now we are finally working and same injury. What do I do? and is my horse only going to be a pasture pal!

Rockfish
May. 20, 2007, 10:49 PM
well, my leasor said Rocky was doing the same i'm-stepping-into-the-canter like hop saturday. He's done this occasionally before is injury. I'm starting to worry now. If we ride him though very much inside leg to outside rein, he stops. On the lunge, he still looks fine, no hitches, both hind legs stepping evenly.......he does it both directions too.

I'm having her get someone to watch her ride and report back to see what they see (since she'll ride him first this week). Also gonna try having her go right to the canter from his 15 min warm up walk to see if it is an eagarness to canter (since he's barely done any since march and he doesn't bounce around too much in the field), that maybe it'll satisfy him to get his mind back to work after a little play first.......Since he's walking and cantering (the doing a big even flowy trot on the downward transition) fine, I've left him on his turnout schedule.

If not, another vet call is inorder....

SparklePlenty
May. 21, 2007, 09:53 AM
I'm going back to Leesburg on June 1st!! WOOHOO!! It's been soo long since i've been, i can't wait to go. :rolleyes: :uhoh:


Ivy - Welcome.. sorry you've become part of this group. But jingles to you and your horse.

Hey Rock - I feel like anytime i posted something good on here, Sparks would be lame the next day. :eek: :yes: Soo.. i feel your pain.

Oh well.. It's a beatutiful day in the neighborhood.. would you be mine.. would you be mine... :lol:

Gunnar
May. 21, 2007, 12:54 PM
I am still in the club but Rosie is getting better. Her intermittent UFP has improved greatly and we are even jumping her. But I still see it from time to time and worry that she will always have the problem.

Like Rocky, Rosie only hitches when being ridden. No problems on the lunge line or free! Vets were puzzled and can only hope she is growing out of it!

Hope everyone is OK today!!

Rockfish
May. 21, 2007, 01:51 PM
Like Rocky, Rosie only hitches when being ridden. No problems on the lunge line or free! Vets were puzzled and can only hope she is growing out of it!

Hope everyone is OK today!!


how old is Rosie? Rocky is 20 so I don't know if he'll grow out of anything. I'm wondering though, since it only happend while ridden and in both directions whether his back maybe bothering him when we post. He got the day off yesterday so I'm eager to see how the leasor thinks he is.

SparklePlenty
May. 21, 2007, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=Gunnar;2447916]

Like Rocky, Rosie only hitches when being ridden. No problems on the lunge line or free! Vets were puzzled and can only hope she is growing out of it!

QUOTE]

Dont you worry about that "hitch" under saddle? Like something isn't right? That's part of the reason i'm taking sparks down to Leesburg, because she does have that hitch.. i want to make sure i'm doing more good than harm. :confused:

How long ago was rosies injury?

Rockfish
May. 22, 2007, 02:05 AM
[QUOTE=Gunnar;2447916]

Like Rocky, Rosie only hitches when being ridden. No problems on the lunge line or free! Vets were puzzled and can only hope she is growing out of it!

QUOTE]

Dont you worry about that "hitch" under saddle? Like something isn't right? That's part of the reason i'm taking sparks down to Leesburg, because she does have that hitch.. i want to make sure i'm doing more good than harm. :confused:

How long ago was rosies injury?



oh man, it does indeed send me into worried mom mode. Though my leasor said he was better today when she started cantering earlier in the workout than normal.....will see what he's like when I see him in the AM

anniesmom
May. 28, 2007, 01:10 PM
today we had our 3rd swt for the meniscal problem, i still think she seems much better in that area.
but further ultrasound of p3 p2 still showed inflammation and bone problem in that area with the ligament problem. she has a lot of pain in this area and is not walking well because of this. all in the same leg.

today she had tildren to try and stop the bony changes from getting any worse, and is now going on small paddock turnout for 3 months.

now im not sure what supplement will help any ideas anyone.

Show_hunters
May. 28, 2007, 10:05 PM
My horse had is ultrasound the the day, and vet said: Good news is your horse has already some rest off and things are starting to heal. Then he said that my horse pulled/strained his Med. Cat. Lig. (right hind). All we can do is walk for 6 weeks (u/s) and do hill work to re-build, but I have to do everything in small sessions and build on them each week. After 6 weeks, I find out if we can trot!

Rockfish
May. 28, 2007, 11:43 PM
we figured out Rocky's hitchy/step into cantery issue was him being super still fromt he stall. They've switched to day=in, night=field turnout and he's been getting stiff standing and napping.

NRB
May. 29, 2007, 01:55 AM
Hey SparklePlenty; when you go to Morvan on June 1st ask your vet about the slight hitch. When I went last year and saw Dr Keoughan, he said that my horses UFP wouldn't be an issue in our eventing lifestyle. I interpreted that to mean a little hitch is ok and not going to hurt anything. But ask your vet and let us know what he says. And by hitch, I mean that slipping on a bananna peel feeling undersaddle. As in you are walking along and it feels like one hind leg falls in a hole or slips. Never happened to me in trot or canter.


[QUOTE=Gunnar;2447916]

Like Rocky, Rosie only hitches when being ridden. No problems on the lunge line or free! Vets were puzzled and can only hope she is growing out of it!

QUOTE]

Dont you worry about that "hitch" under saddle? Like something isn't right? That's part of the reason i'm taking sparks down to Leesburg, because she does have that hitch.. i want to make sure i'm doing more good than harm. :confused:

How long ago was rosies injury?

SparklePlenty
May. 29, 2007, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE=NRB;2464965]Hey SparklePlenty; when you go to Morvan on June 1st ask your vet about the slight hitch. When I went last year and saw Dr Keoughan, he said that my horses UFP wouldn't be an issue in our eventing lifestyle. I interpreted that to mean a little hitch is ok and not going to hurt anything. But ask your vet and let us know what he says. And by hitch, I mean that slipping on a bananna peel feeling undersaddle. As in you are walking along and it feels like one hind leg falls in a hole or slips. Never happened to me in trot or canter.



Hey...

I'm actually not going anymore... after long talks w/horsey friends, BO, and my old vet they all think Sparks is going great.. sound at the walk and happy. So i'm going to wait till July...

She's not slipping as much as she was before, only like once or twice when we ride now. So i feel she's getting better.. We just have every other medical issue to deal with.. .IR, Hypothyroid... :eek:My bank account can't handle much more!!! ;)

irishmusic
May. 29, 2007, 11:55 AM
Sad to say I am a member of this club. My OTTB showed lameness about 8 months ago. She started bucking and refusing her left lead. Finally, after 3 months, I figured out it was a stifle problem. I started her on a 4 point program:

1. Consulting with her farrier, to get an earlier breakover in her hind feet.
2. Started a strengthening program - 20 minutes of solid trotting - with collection.
3. Started hill work - up and down hills starting a 5 minutes and working up to 15 minutes.
4. Linament on stifles before workout.

This management program has worked well and her stifle problems seemed almost gone - that is until I got a new farrier. I think we have a plan for changing the way she is shod in the future that should work.

jillya
May. 31, 2007, 03:19 AM
My 5 year old has surgery today to remove an OCD lesion from his right hock and scope his stifle. The surgeon found that one of his cruciate ligaments had a minor fray in it that looks like it has started to heal. He said one month in a stall with handwalking, one month small paddock and 2 months field turn out and only then start to ride. Has anyone gone through this before? How has it turned out?

Gr.Prix Dreamer
May. 31, 2007, 01:13 PM
Finally a clique for me to join but it's not a fun/happy thing. UGH!

History:

6 year old Oldenburg gelding, STILL growing seems butt high this week. I've had him since he was 2. Has ALWAYS had short periods of not quite right on the right hind. First seen only on the lunge but not under saddle and only to the right. Usually only seen when it is time for the farrier to come out.

Over the winter was showing signs of head bobbing on the lunge. Vet concluded that it was a "weakness" in the right hind but wasn't concerned enough to do any diagnostics at that time, was told to keep the horse in full training and ride him until he gets stronger or until something breaks.

Looks like something broke this week. Horse has been working great u/s, rode him in some uneven footing and noticed a change in movement, gave him time off, bute, rest. Once he was back to moving normally he went back to work, even to a show and did great. Rode him in the outdoor again Friday with the uneven footing, kept him out of the deep stuff, he wasn't struggling. Had 3 days off due to the holiday. Tuesday night I got on and he was head bobbing lame under saddle which is a first and in both directions. After 20 minutes of light long and low type work he was 99%. Gave him bute, massaged the stifle area with linament and came back the next morning to the same thing. Worked him out of it again. Just realized that this suddenly appeared after the farrier had been out. Hmmmm.

I called my vet and they can't see him until Monday. They said not to work him until they have seen him so that I don't make things worse. We have a big show on the 8th, doesn't look so good for us. Oh well, he is more important than the show.

He is not crabby or cranky, he willingly works out of the head bobbing and his u/s work is awesome. No short steps, very forward. He has never presented like this before, never had the head bobbing u/s both directions. His stifle doesn't lock although once in a GREAT while the hind end will slip but could be due to bad footing as well. Transitions seem to really make him feel much better especially trot/canter. He is not lame in the walk and has a very forward big walk. Doesn't buck or kick out while being ridden, doesn't hop in the canter but can sometimes be resistant on the right lead and sometimes pick up the wrong lead when tracking right although the resistance has been gone since we got a new saddle.

Does this sound like stifle to you? The vet gave him a really big work up over the winter and came to no real conclusion, this is really just me assuming that it is stifle, has always been what I felt. If he works out of it could he have just tweaked a muscle and be sore? Should I work him, hand walk him? I hate that my vet can't even be bothered to call me back. I had to call the office today to see if he had gotten my message from yesterday. The receptionist said he did and to stay off him until he sees him. I wish he would let me ask some questions so I can calm myself down. UGH.

Dune
May. 31, 2007, 01:22 PM
GP Dreamer, if you suspect stifle at all, and it sounds like you do...I would not stop working him. I would stop working him in the unlevel footing, that is death to stifles. As long as he's forward and willing, a nice WTC ride, having him use all his joints is a good thing. The massage after (or before) with the linament is a good idea too. In my area, people use Blue Lotion/DMSO on the stifles before going to work. Make the vet do some diagnostics this time, block the stifle, there might not "be anything" there (like a horse that I have) but if you can get the horse sound from a block, it tells you a lot and will give you a course of action. :yes:

Gr.Prix Dreamer
May. 31, 2007, 02:11 PM
Dune,

I'm so emotional about this that your reply brought tears to my eyes. I guess because my gut tells me to keep working the horse, even if it is just on straight lines for now. He is HAPPY to work, this isn't me being selfish. I was working him yesterday and another boarder was riding with me and she was shocked that I continued to work him through the head bobbing but was also shocked to see him make a full recovery by the end of the ride.

It's just tough. I wish the damn vet would call me so I could bounce things off of him.

I'm trying to figure out if I should call the show grounds and see if there is a chance to get my entry money back or if I should just wait it out and hope for the best. In the past he has snapped out of this, but this time it seems worse. We aren't weathly people, it's costing me almost $300 to go to this show, that money might be better spent for diagnostics. On the other hand he may be fine by next Saturday!

Helen of NC
Jun. 1, 2007, 11:20 AM
Another stifle clique member here, unfortunately. We're just a little over a week post-ultrasound diagnosis of "right stifle effusion, medial collateral ligament origin, partial avulsion with small bone fragment." What that translates to is a ligament partially torn away from the bone in the right stifle, an injury consistent with a slip and fall in the pasture, with right hind leg extended--although no one actually saw it, or saw any immediate evidence of such an injury.

So... the journey to the diagnosis was not exactly a straight line.

Stella's my baby, the first horse I've actually raised from a foal. She's the daughter of my older mare, Jewel, and both have homes for life with me. And even though she just had her ninth birthday this Sunday, she'll always be my baby (much as my 25-year-old son is still my baby).

I was the first person on her back, but I worked with great horsemen and women to start her, and for the last year, had been taking dressage lessons with her, while continuing to work with "her" trainer on developing her canter work, etc. The path of her training has been, by design, a relatively slow one. She's always been exceptionally quick to pick things up, with wonderful retention. Just like her mama, her attitude has always been willing and cooperative. She's sweet as sugar.

A couple months ago, we noticed a slight hop when trotting to the right--but only to the right--as though she wanted to take a canter departure. Trotting straight was no issue; trotting to the left was no issue. Well, that intemittent hop became a regular occurrence. We tried everything we could think of, working with the farrier, her acupuncture vet, her "regular" vet, her chiro, both trainers--and my gut. We tried canter in the warmup before trotting. For a while, it seemed to help, but then it didn't. For a while, the new back shoes seemed to help, but then they didn't. When she began to show some minor neuro signs (crab-walking downhill; more difficulty turning in tight circles), we did a month's course of Marquis for EPM (her mama had been treated for it several years ago, and we're in a "hot" zone for it). We rested her while she was on the EPM treatment, i.e., no lessons, but continued very light work under saddle. She worsened.

So... we hauled her two hours away for both digital radiography and the ultrasound. The good news was that the x-rays showed great bone health. The bad news, though, showed up on the ultrasound.

And so we brought her home, and quickly tore down a portable round pen, to make a very small area around two stalls. Since she'd been on 24/7 pasture with well-bedded run-in stalls (lockable at feed time) her entire life, we opted not to completely confine her to a stall. Her pasture mates are a 26-year-old retired Hanovarian (who'd been her babysitter when she was weaned years ago), and her 21-year-old mother. While they're separated by the round pen panels, their stalls back up to hers (and with their fans, they spend a great deal of time in them during this heat), and we've got a round bale strategically placed just outside her "containment area" so everyone has access to it at the same time. She's adapted well, but then she's always been a pretty easy-going little girl.

I've cut her Ultium down to a cup twice a day, and she's supplemented with liquid Vet-Flex, ABC's Plus, natural Vitamin E, Recovery EQ, as well as a multi-vitamin (Grand Vite EZ Keeper - Grass). She also gets her free-choice grass hay in the round bale supplemented with some very nice timothy/alfalfa that the oldsters don't get.

She had the first of three shock wave treatments this Tuesday evening (by her "regular" vet), and we're exploring stem cell therapy as well to try after the shock wave therapy is completed. She can either be hand-walked or ridden at a walk every day, but we have to do so on flat, firm ground (no deep footing), with no sharp turns (i.e., as much straight work as possible). She'll be re-assessed by ultrasound after the shock wave treatments (about 6 - 8 weeks out), and we'll go from there.

I've been told she should heal, but it could take as much as a year--and there's no way to determine if it will heal completely. I'm committed to whatever it takes, though. Did I mention she's my baby? I'm very, very lucky that she does have major medical coverage, and it certainly helps with the hefty financial aspects of treatment (covers the diagnostic workup, the shock wave treatment and stem-cell therapy--but not any supplements, joint injections, acupuncture or chiro work).

And there you go.

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2167197200072594291iuVJoi

SparklePlenty
Jun. 1, 2007, 01:59 PM
Really would make me think front end lameness.... But then again i'm not vet.

Gr. Prix Dreamer - Hope you guys make out ok.. I've been dealing w/an ongoing issue from March. :eek:

Vet comes out again next week for our 3 month re-eval. Wish us luck!

Feuerlilie
Jun. 1, 2007, 10:13 PM
I have always thought that head bobbing is frontend lameness.

My mare is looking pretty good after all of her stifle issues...it has been almost 10 weeks since her injections into the stifle joints on her RH side.

I think the steroids wore off weeks ago......she seems a little stiff again....but she gets better with work and asking ehr to go forward.

Have been geting some gorgeous U/S work from her lately so I know she is feeling okay...not 100% as yet but I think we may be getting there. Possibly 90% sound

Remember the vets told me she was chronic...so this may give you all some hope that these stifle issues do usually resolve themselves with treatment.

I am just keeping my fingers and toes crossed tll we get over the 3 month mark.

Wish us luck....and good luck to everyone else.:)

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 2, 2007, 12:00 AM
My vet said that head bobbing can be hind end related. The first vet that evaluated my horse said front left suspensory could be the culprit. On an exam by my vet he said it was obvious to see that the right hind had some sort of weakness and that the young vet that initially evaluated my horse may have mistaken the head bobbing to be a front left leg when in fact since the horse trots in diagnol pairs that it could very well be the hind right that was causing the problem.

kiwifruit
Jun. 2, 2007, 11:19 AM
I'm curious to know why certain schools of thought differ when it comes to stifle injuries. One approach with these injuries is to inject and then build up a steady program to strengthen the stifle. Others say limited walking and long term stall rest. Which one is the better of the two? Since my guy went lame from a funky meniscus (not torn but does not look right, they are not even sure if it is the meniscus that is causing the lameness) I've done the complete hand walking, shock therapy and stall rest to only see him deteriorate even further. I've had three ultrasounds and the last one shows more effusion around the joint which is odd because the horse is at rest! Why would there be more effusion? The people at New Bolton are still scratching theit heads on that one. And to make matter worse, his whole left side is starting to atrophy. I'm almost tempted to inject the stifle with HA and steriod and put him back into a strengthening program to see if work helps break the cycle. I hate to "work" the horse if he is in pain but I wonder if this would be better for him instead of wasting away in his stall. And he already has moderate arthritis of the lower hock and locking stifle in that leg so I'm sure sitting in a stall is not helping any of those aliments. I just would hate to go a year resting this leg to have him the same and then try some work therapy but by then he will be too arthritic to even bring back. Any thoughts or similar situations?

Dune
Jun. 2, 2007, 01:41 PM
I'm curious to know why certain schools of thought differ when it comes to stifle injuries. One approach with these injuries is to inject and then build up a steady program to strengthen the stifle. Others say limited walking and long term stall rest. Which one is the better of the two? Since my guy went lame from a funky meniscus (not torn but does not look right, they are not even sure if it is the meniscus that is causing the lameness) I've done the complete hand walking, shock therapy and stall rest to only see him deteriorate even further. I've had three ultrasounds and the last one shows more effusion around the joint which is odd because the horse is at rest! Why would there be more effusion? The people at New Bolton are still scratching theit heads on that one. And to make matter worse, his whole left side is starting to atrophy. I'm almost tempted to inject the stifle with HA and steriod and put him back into a strengthening program to see if work helps break the cycle. I hate to "work" the horse if he is in pain but I wonder if this would be better for him instead of wasting away in his stall. And he already has moderate arthritis of the lower hock and locking stifle in that leg so I'm sure sitting in a stall is not helping any of those aliments. I just would hate to go a year resting this leg to have him the same and then try some work therapy but by then he will be too arthritic to even bring back. Any thoughts or similar situations?


Unless it is an acute injury that needs rest, my vets have always said to keep working them. I have one right now that a vet had said was an SI injury when it really ended up being stifle. She was stall rested/hand walked for 4 months and just got worse. About six weeks ago I started tack walking and am now up to 10 minutes of trot and 30 minutes total under saddle (20min walk work). She looks much better and is acting much better, well except for yesterday when she tried to buck me off, I think she's feeling good and getting fit.:eek::yes:

Helen of NC
Jun. 2, 2007, 01:46 PM
kiwifruit--I understand your frustration. See post #109 above. The docs who performed the ultrasound that diagnosed Stella prescribed complete stall rest, BUT riding her at a walk 30 - 45 minutes a day on straight, firm, level ground. My regular vet says that's "nonsense," that she needs to be hand-walked only, but she can have the compromised turnout we arranged with just a very small paddock outside her stall. My acupuncture vet said the reason the specialty doc recommended ride walking is that most horses on complete stall rest are too "nuts" to hand walk, but said a compromise of hand-walking, combined with ride-walking would be fine, and she also gave a thumbs-up to our minimal turnout arrangement. Since I have to travel for work during the week, I have my trainer coming a couple times a week to ride Stella at a walk around the farm; I either hand-walk or ride her myself the other days. This trainer helped start her, and knows her very well. He also rehabbed one of his own horses recently, doing both shock wave and stem cell therapies, and riding him on trails at a walk virtually every day. His horse is now back--after nine months of rehab--to being very competitive. He received the same conflicting advice, though, with two of the vets he consulted saying to rest completely, no turn-out, no riding, just hand-walking. He's convinced that, had he followed that advice, he wouldn't have a sound horse today. He does keep this horse in a relatively small paddock now (except when he's at horse shows, when he's confined to a stall overnight and between classes), so he doesn't know how he would have done had he been turned out with other horses in a large pasture. That's my ultimate dilemma--Stella is used to 24/7 access to a large, rolling pasture with her two pasture-mates (a 26-year-old and a 21-year-old, neither of whom likes to expend much energy); a buck-fart-slip-fall was probably the cause of her injury in the first place. It's going to be difficult making the choice to turn her out once again, but we'll cross that bridge eventually. I think there are certainly so many schools of thought on rehab these days that it's difficult for vets to keep up with all the changes. Look at the evolution in sports medicine for humans... we've come a very long way from the days of lying in traction, haven't we?

I still fall back on the wisdom of the two vets who've known Stella all her life, as well as that of my trainer. If I listen to each of them--and my own gut--I think I'll be on the right track. I wish you all the best in your own journey. One thing I keep hearing over and over, though, is that it's very difficult to make accurate diagnoses from ultrasounds of the stifle--one really needs quite a bit of practice to be proficient at it. Since the increased effusion is a bit of a mystery, would your vets consider sending out those latest ultrasound images to another facility--say, UC Davis or Cornell, for instance--for a second read? Just a thought...

kiwifruit
Jun. 2, 2007, 03:04 PM
Wow! Thanks for the responses, especially Helen of NC. Stifles are very frustrating and I think the combination of hocks, locking stifles and some sort of issue with the stifle is really getting to my guy. I did get the okay for some limited turnout as long as he does not run but that could be an issue. Up to last week, I've just handwalked for about 45 minutes each day but now he can be turn out in a small paddock under supervision. The problem is he hates the flies and sun and will start to run in order to avoid it. The first week I've been drugging him and turning out for about 1-2 hours. I hope that I can stand the courage to eventually turn him out overnight in about a week or two. I think I'll need to drug myself once I turn him out for the night fretting that he will run himself into the ground. I know I can't prevent what will happen but at this point, he is miserable and very unsound so I guess I have nowhere to go but up? As for New Bolton, I had two previous horse problems and both times, I did not get too much support. I'm almost thinking about shipping him down to Leesburg to see Dr. Allen? Or at least write to him with a copy of the US to get an idea of what he thinks of the situation. Is Dr. Allen pretty accessible?

Feuerlilie
Jun. 3, 2007, 12:47 AM
Kiwifruit...it is so frustrating to have these problems...dont I know about it!

My mare was diagnosed with chronic soreness in the soft tissue of the stifle joint on the RH side.

She was chronically sore in march...she dould barely trot on the right rein...looked like she would fall over. She was injected and spent 3 days on stall rest...one of those days she was in the float making the journey back home. And then I was to walk her 20 mins a day...which I did for a couple fo weeks then I increased this to include trotting on straight lines.....10 weeks later she is back to cantering and trotting circles.

I honeslty believe that if I was told by the vets to rest her for 3 months...my mare would not be as sound as she is now....she still has a teeny bit more to go......but at least now she has the strength in the hindend and stifle area to see her through should she get sore again....the muscles she has developed will support that joint more.

She was starting to atrophy on the RH side as well...just slightly....but the muscling has evened up now and she is actually developing her hamstrings and thigh muscles with the long and low work I have been doing over poles.

It is soo hard to give you advice over the net as I do not know all of yur circumstances BUT if your horse is not improving on stall rest after 3 months I would be seriously getting asecond opinion.

If it were my horse I would be starting to walk him out more and get the horse moving those joints over polesand such...just very gently at first to test the waters......and keep a journal of his progress.......if things improve with some movement introduced to his routine ....I would be thinking this is the right track.

Also in regard to the stall rest thing....I am still stall resting my mare at night and turning her out in the paddock during the day....I figure that if something were to happen it usually happens at night!! But my girl is only 4 years and she can get up to some mischief!!:winkgrin:

kiwifruit
Jun. 3, 2007, 08:13 AM
Feuerlilie thanks for the support and thoughts. I just have a gut feeling about this that he needs to be back in some sort of strengthening program. I had my trainer out to look at him, the first time since the injury and she almost cried to how lame he looked. She suggested some work but I told her, "what if it gets worse"? She replied, "it already is worse." At this point I am going to put him back into some sort of slow and steady strengthening program till things reach their breaking point (if he or I have one). I know many of you are not vets but would you think getting the joint injected with HA and steroid would help? I did have him injected with just HA about three months ago but it did little good. Thanks for all of the support and shoulders to cry upon. It is really frustrating when this type of injury is so vague and expansive and little is known about it.

Feuerlilie
Jun. 3, 2007, 10:34 AM
I really think a lot of these vets are guessing at injuries in the stifle area.......the vets that looked at my mare are the best in our state ...if not Australia....and they still couldnt find anythign conclusive with my mare.

Had they not injected my mare I daresay that she may still be having problems...but who knows. They gave me the option of spelling her for 3 months, or injecting her with the steroids...I opted the steroids as this seemed the most positive solution of the 2.

My trainer was not happy when I told her that they had injected...I am not sure why....she did not see my mare when she was extremely sore so I am sure she did not understand how painful the problem was for my mare.

If I were to do it again....the answer is Yes I would inject with steroids.

I did do some research on the steroid injections and they do not deteriote the joint if done once off....from what I gather.

I also now feed a glucosymine supplement for her joints....which I had previously not done...she will now have to be fed it for her whole life...according to the vets.......what a small price to pay for my mare to be sound again though.

If I were you I would start riding your boy at a walk...making him long and low and round and start with poles so he has to bend those stifle joints....even back him up over poles on the ground. Good luck

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 4, 2007, 09:51 PM
Well the vet came out today for our exam. It had rained and my boy was high as a kite. He wouldn't chill out on the lunge so they gave him 1 cc of Ace to settle him so they could see his movement. No head bobbing today but a definate hitch in the right hind that was apparent to my vet. He said that it was definately more noticeable this time than it was the previous time he saw him.

Upon flexing him and I mean FLEXING they got NO pain response, no lameness, he trotted off great. They did his front end too since I had said that the head bobbing was pretty profound and got nothing. My vet had me walk backward with him as his handler walked my boy toward us. He had me really look at the movement first on the good side and then compare it to the side that was hitching. You could see that the stifle area was being propelled outward and then forward which was really odd to see. He said this was because the inner most tendon which runs over the stifle was catching just slightly.

Off to x-rays of the right stifle. They complimented me on how well my boy stood still for them, the little bit of Ace had long worn off. They said normally they have to sedate horses because they take offense to the xray plate being up close to their private area.

The vet says his gut tells him that this is the stifle catching. He thinks the x-rays will probably be clean but didn't want to commit to anything. More than likely he said that he will prescribe hill work for my boy to strengthen the area. If that doesn't work he said we could talk about blistering but neither one of us are too hip on going that route. He wouldn't let me work him or say one way or the other if our show this week-end is still in the cards. He wants to play it safe and read the x-rays first.

So now it is a waiting game. I am praying for clean x-rays! Please jingle for my boy! I won't hear until the morning, yet another sleepless night for me.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 5, 2007, 01:51 PM
So it's 11:48 am my time, offically past FIRST THING IN THE MORNING!! I still have not heard back from my vet on the x-rays. I am pulling my hair out.

Of course everyone who has ever known me has called to talk today. Each time the phone rings my heart leaps thinking it's the vet, but it's not.

I called this morning and they asked what number I could be reached at but I still haven't heard a word. How often can you call before you are considered a pest?

I have lessons to teach on the other side of the world this afternoon and it would be nice to maybe get a ride in on my boy if everything is alright considering that if we get the ok we have a big show this week-end and my horse hasn't been ridden in 5 days! UGH.

Helen of NC
Jun. 5, 2007, 08:54 PM
Any word from the vet, Gr. Prix Dreamer? From what my vets tell me (the regular one, the acupuncture one, and the specialty lameness one), standard radiographs don't reveal much in the stifle area, other than obvious arthritic changes to the bone structure, along with rough areas, fragments and chips. Digital radiography is better, but often it won't reveal as much as ultrasound if there are issues with ligaments and cartilage. Will they consider ultrasound? Are they experienced with its orthopedic applications (i.e., not just reproductive applications)? It's not easy to diagnose stifle problems, and it takes a lot of specialty training to use ultrasound effectively when stifle problems are suspected, but it's certainly a good idea to gather just as much information as possible. As I've mentioned previously, my girl's digital radiographs looked fine (and temporarily, at least, got my hopes up that we were in the clear); unfortunately, though, the ultrasound revealed the "big picture"--quite literally.

I wish you all the best. Just know that there are quite a few of us out here who share your frustration in this confusing journey, and just want our "babies" back--healthy, sound, fit and happy. For some of us, it's going to be a long road. Here's hoping you're one of the lucky ones, who gets to ride in the fast lane to recovery.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:22 PM
Yes I finally heard from the vet and as I expected his x-rays are clean. They are sending them to a specialist just to be sure but two vets looked over them and saw nothing.

My vet said I could try riding him today and see how he is, it has been 5 days since I have ridden him. It was awful. The head bobbing is pretty much gone but you can feel that right hind isn't right, he is crooked and having a hard time on the short sides of the arena. There is no show for us this week-end. :(

I called the show secretary to let her know. She might be able to get me a partial refund with a note from my vet. The vet will fax her tomorrow. Anything I can get back would be helpful toward paying for the x-rays and the chiropractor/accupunturist that I am having come out to see him next week. Helen, how did your horse responded to accupuncture?

My vet wants to start my boy on PT right away. Starting him on a muscle relaxant and hill work, that could be interesting :) He was supposed to e-mail me today with exactly what he wants me to do but of course got home from teaching and there is nothing. I need a plan of action to get me through the night.

Helen thanks so much for your post, it means a lot to know there is a support group here. I just wonder how much info is out there regarding treatment and therapy for this problem and if there are any good prognosises. I have so many questions.

I want to start him on a joint supplement too but I don't even know where to begin. I am completely depressed right now. As you said, I just want my baby back, sound and fit again. I hope this is only a temporary thing but my gut says this has been a long time coming. Thanks for your thoughts. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 5, 2007, 10:38 PM
I just thought of some questions.

Did any of you have heat or swelling associated with the stifle injury?

Helen you mentioned that there was a partial tear with your mare, can you describe how she moved and what symptoms she had. Reason I am asking is because of the sudden change of movement in the stifle area itself on my boy almost overnight. Rode him that Friday and he was fine. Didn't see him for a few days over the memorial day holiday and suddenly he was off and the leg was rotating in this strange way. No pain or swelling though. I almost looks like something is dislocated. My mares stifle used to get stuck to the point where she couldn't move. I have seen that, I am familiar with that, THIS is totally new to me. I have school horses too whose stifles stick, I can identify that as well, this isn't it. He doesn't get stuck, he doesn't slip on a banana peel, he sort of lifts the leg out to the side and then forward. He is also dragging it when backing up, something he has never done.

Has anyone had or know anyone who has had a complete recovery from a weak/loose stifle type injury?

My vet said we had good news and bad. The good was that the x-rays are clean, the bad is that my boy has actually gotten worse instead of better with time and work. He said that the way my horse is presenting he has seen in very young horses before but not in horses that are as fit as mine is and he is very fit. This is what has me worried. He is only 6 and I believe he is still growing some. I pray this is just a funky growth spurt of some sort but I just don't know.

Helen of NC
Jun. 5, 2007, 11:27 PM
My girl's first indications that things weren't all well with the world was a tendency to take a hop, as though trying to take a canter departure, when trotting to the right. There was never any discernable heat or swelling, never anything that, on the surface at least, indicated there was any problem in the stifle. I've used an acupuncture vet for a number of years for my older mare--for general maintenance at first, then to support her post-EPM after that was diagnosed a number of years ago. When we first started noticing the "hop" in Stella, my first thought was a training issue--or my own balance issues. But I also had my acupuncture vet check her out, and she "read" stifle from the get-go (unfortunately, some of the meridians for EPM are very close to those for the stifle). But... it would be variable from just the right hind, to more equal right/left. With input from the farrier, the chiro, my dressage trainer, my saddle fitter (a good friend) and my horse's trainer, we all were in the "let's try strengthening" camp, and that worked for a while. But then she began presenting the "hop" more consistently, and began compensating a tad on the left as well. The other oddity was a tendency to plant and pivot on the right hind foot (exaggerated pivot, that is) when circling in a small circle to the left--what I later learned was a means of trying to compensate for the pain in the right stifle. Crab-walking downhill was another subtle hint (although NOT when blindfolded, interestingly enough), but more of a "monkey wrench" sympton than anything else; gave us very little clue as to what was going on.

I love my acupuncture vet (as do both my horses)... she has a traditional vet practice, but acupuncture is truly her passion, and she's very, very good, having trained extensively for many years; she's also very adept at traditional Chinese herbal applications. It complements traditional medicine, but doesn't necessarily replace it. I've found acupuncture has been very accurate in pinpointing the "neighborhood" where things aren't quite right. She was the one who finally suggested the digital radiography/ultrasound, and sent us on our merry way to a specialty vet practice a couple hours away.

Have they ruled out OCD lesions? That was actually something my vet wanted to rule out, and although it's more commonly found in very young horses, it isn't that unusual to find it in horses over five as well. And, while I sound like a broken record, ask about ultrasound. If they're not comfortable with it, see if they can refer you to someone else who is.

Hang in there, and write down your questions before talking to the vet... ALL of them.

Feuerlilie
Jun. 5, 2007, 11:42 PM
We had just a hop in the trot...like she wanted to canter as well.

There was no swelling or heat THOUGH when she did the inital damage (we suspect falling in the paddock) her back legs were swollen like ballons and she was very very lame. After the inital swelling subsided there was no heat at all......lameness went but the hopping was there.

I am STILL waiitng on my report from the uni...it has been 11 weeks now!

Mare seems to be going well...but stifles are still loose.....just will take time thats all for these to tighten up.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 6, 2007, 12:43 AM
My girl's first indications that things weren't all well with the world was a tendency to take a hop, as though trying to take a canter departure, when trotting to the right. There was never any discernable heat or swelling,
some of the meridians for EPM are very close to those for the stifle).

I love my acupuncture vet

Have they ruled out OCD lesions? That was actually something my vet wanted to rule out, and although it's more commonly found in very young horses, it isn't that unusual to find it in horses over five as well. And, while I sound like a broken record, ask about ultrasound. If they're not comfortable with it, see if they can refer you to someone else who is.

Hang in there, and write down your questions before talking to the vet... ALL of them.

We have the occasional hop in the trot too as if he is going to canter, sometimes he prefers to canter rather than trot.

I asked about EPM and they did check him for it last time they were out and he tested negative to the tail pull and the leg crossing and all the other things they try. I asked about it again yesterday and my vet was sure that wasn't it.

Glad you like your acupuncture vet I am going to try that next week.

They did rule out OCD with the x-rays, they only x-rayed the stifle though not the hocks but they don't think the hocks are involved here.

The vet did mention possibly doing more diagnostics but wanted to try the strengthening route first.

I will write down my questions, seems I have more and more of them as the night wears on. Thanks Helen.

Feuerlille - at least you had something to point your finger at. I am still scratching my head as to how this got so bad so quickly. Glad to hear your mare is getting better though, gives me some hope.

Helen of NC
Jun. 6, 2007, 07:13 AM
Just to clarify, it was my older mare, Jewel, who had a confirmed EPM diagnosis several years back (within a year of giving birth to Stella). We did go ahead with a one month's course of Marquis with Stella, though, just as a precaution, and more to rule out EPM than anything else; we also just did very light riding during that month. She worsened, rather than improved, so we felt we could at least, in good faith, pursue the lameness "path" with more focus after that.

Trying to look back as best I can during Stella's nine years, since her birth, I can remember pretty much every single boo-boo vividly. But there was never anything that caused her back legs to swell with heat, nothing that indicated an acute injury anywhere in the hind end. Again, it's an injury consistent with a fall, but its exact origin will probably always remain a mystery. There are times I'm very grateful I DON'T have 24/7 camera coverage of my horses' activities (much as I am grateful not to have had it for my son's teen years...).

SparklePlenty
Jun. 6, 2007, 11:58 AM
We did have heat and swelling coming out of the stifle area... very soft sweling though. (from a slip on a road :eek:) She was never off in her front end.. ever.. But at the trot she was "hoping" her whole hip/leg area forward, just on that one side. didn't really track up.. etc..

Did you vet evaluate your horses front end? I think i said before, head bob normally means front end to me.. Just wondering what they thought of it? Did you notice a change in his gait from hard ground to soft ground?
Keep us posted.. good luck

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 6, 2007, 12:59 PM
Did you vet evaluate your horses front end? I think i said before, head bob normally means front end to me.. Just wondering what they thought of it? Did you notice a change in his gait from hard ground to soft ground?
Keep us posted.. good luck

They did flex his front left leg too just to make sure and went over both front legs carefully. The head bob was not noticeable for the vet and wasn't really too bad u/s yesterday either although my daughter said she saw it but I think that is just the movement he is making when that right hind swivels out.

They didn't check him on the hard ground of the aisle because he was dripping wet and they were afraid he would slip. They had talked about doing that before the x-rays but never did.

I'm getting a bit aggravated too with the vet. Between not getting back to me when he said he would with the x-rays (tonight or first thing in the morning turned into 1:00 in the afternoon the next day) and then saying he would e-mail me with exactly what he wanted me to do for PT and not receiving that yet . . . I understand he is busy, but he needs to understand that I am neurotic! Seriously though, I need a plan of action before I end up with bleeding ulcers. Waiting another day for something to do is making me nuts. I am teaching nearly all day and well into the evening today so that should keep me busy. I plan to come home and research more supplements as well. Any advice there would be great also.

I offically scratched this morning from our "big" show. :(

SparklePlenty
Jun. 6, 2007, 02:37 PM
Gr.Prix-
Trust me i know your pain. I too am a neruotic owner.. thankfully my vet now understands that and calls me back quickly. LOL... If you read through my other posts you will see what i'm talking about.

As far as a joint supplement.. i use Cosequin and a seperate dose of MSM. I've tried MSM alone before.. and didn't get the same results.

Just try to stay positive.. things will get better.. So keep us posted.

Helen of NC
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:20 PM
I prefer the term "doting Mom" rather than neurotic... has a much better ring to it. As for supplements, Stella probably gets as much volume of supplements as grain. We've cut her back to just a cup of Ultium twice a day, and we use a SmartPak that contains ABC's Plus, Grand Vite EZ Keeper -Grass, Natural Vitamin E and Recovery EQ. She also gets an ounce of Liquid Vet Flex, that I buy by the gallon from my vet (has a handy pump dispenser). The latter has higher amounts of glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, Vitamin C, Boswella, etc., than most powder or pellet joint formulations, and my vet trusts their laboratory analyses of each ingredient (having requested them from the manufacturer, based in South Carolina).

I have really, really made an attempt to cut back on the treats, but both my girls go nuts for fleshy, ripe canteloupe rinds (I make Hubby leave a good 1/2" of fruit on the rind). Right out of the fridge, cut in little bite-size pieces, they're a nice summertime treat. Makes me feel just a little less guilty about the confinement...

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 6, 2007, 11:14 PM
Thanks guys!

Well I got the email from my vet. A little difficult to understand being that I never quite made it to geometry in school and he is wanting the hills to be 20-50 degrees 10 yards, blah, blah, blah. 3 reps of 10 (that much I get from working out!)

His instructions left something to be desired as well. Didn't say how often to do the hill work, said only do the hill work if he does ok in warm up, well how does he want me to warm him up and what exactly is the definition of ok?

Needless to say I emailed him back with about 7 questions. I hope he gets back to me soon.

Still pouring over supplements.

I have added barn number 5 to my barns to travel to. The phone has been ringing off the hook for lessons, I'll be lucky to find time to ride my boy in the daylight hours to do the hill work!

Rockfish
Jun. 7, 2007, 01:33 AM
we didn't have any heat or swelling in the stifle, we were just 3.5ish lame on both hind legs after (presumably) getting hung up in a fallen tree or shrubbery in the field.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 10, 2007, 06:04 PM
Ok so we have started our treatment. 22 muscle relaxants 2x's a day until gone. (500 pills) I have ordered straight glucosamine 5,000 mg and 100% Yucca to be given daily as well. Wednesday he sees the chiropractor/acupuncturist.

So far I have ridden him a few times. He is actually doing quite well. After about 15 minutes of walk he then can trot and canter pretty comfortably for about 15 minutes. He actually gets better with the work and lots of transitions. I tried taking him out to ride the hills after our warm up last night but picked the wrong time of day (near dusk) and we were attacked by the mosquitos. He can't be feeling too bad as he was rearing and trying to rub me off into the trees as well as throwing a buck down quite a large hill due to the massive amount of mosquitos on his hind end. My husband and kids were on the ground walking with us and my husband said to forget it since the bugs were so bad. Once we got out of the trees the behavior stopped and he was back to his old self. Poor guy. Hope I didn't ruin his hill experience for him. I'll try again in the afternoon tomorrow.

I'm glad I scratched from the show this week-end. He probably could have pulled it off after a lengthy warm up but it wouldn't be worth the price I would have paid in shattering his confidence. I can tell he is still feeling very iffy on that right hind, he doesn't trust that it will hold us. I am hoping and praying with the proper work and strengthening that this too shall pass.

Thanks for sending encouragement my way. Hope you guys are having some positive moments with your horses too.

CJ4ME
Jun. 10, 2007, 06:13 PM
Hola everyone

I haven't checked in for a few weeks because nothing has changed.

To recap: CJ went vaguely lame last year and after work and injections to the stifle he was fine. Then in December he went acutely lame and nothing helped. Went to Cornell and xrays and US revealed 2 large bone spurs on the right stifle but no visible ligament damage.

Rx: Rest, handwalking, adequan for 4-6 weeks then undersaddle walking and round pen turnout and then if sound progress...

He never went sound.

He is totally happy, going on in turnout daily and trots and canters around and doesn't seem bothered by the hitchy lameness in the right hind. Bute helps a bit but not a lot.

Considering surgery to remove the spurs and take a look at the ligaments.

Anyone have experience with this? :confused:

SparklePlenty
Jun. 11, 2007, 09:45 AM
CJ4ME -
I have nothing to offer but hugs to you.. i hate surgeries no matter what shape or form. But.. i always figure if it's going to make my horse more comfortable, and i can afford it (:yes::eek:) then i would go through with it. I personally have no experience with removal of bone spurs. But keep us posted..

Gr.Prix- the one thing my vet warned me against was NOT to do canter work, till we were stronger at the trot? Just as a thought.. anyone else informed of this?

We are getting there.. slowly.. Left stifle looks good.. now we are sore on teh right. I'm assuming an over compenstation?? Oh how my pocket book hurts... :D:lol:


How is everyone else doing??

Feuerlilie
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:10 AM
I dont know about not doing canter work...my vet just said to build it up slowly to include normal work after a while.

It has almost been 3 months for us since the injections and today my mare seemed a littel stiff behind the last few days...on the LH of all things (not the RH) so must be the same thing as you sparkle,...a bit of overcompensation.

I did a training test on her on teh weekend and she stopped and bucked in the test......am crossing my fingers and just hoping that it isnt becoz she is starting to go sore again...rode her again tonight, no bucking but she did stop, and she worked out of the stiffness.

I think i may need jingles as I am starting to feel a littel scared that all our probelms havent been completely healed as yet :(

And just typing this down is making it clear that maybe she is starting to feel sore (HOPING it is just my imagination):eek:

Rider in Training
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:40 AM
CJ4ME -
I have nothing to offer but hugs to you.. i hate surgeries no matter what shape or form. But.. i always figure if it's going to make my horse more comfortable, and i can afford it (:yes::eek:) then i would go through with it. I personally have no experience with removal of bone spurs. But keep us posted..

Gr.Prix- the one thing my vet warned me against was NOT to do canter work, till we were stronger at the trot? Just as a thought.. anyone else informed of this?

We are getting there.. slowly.. Left stifle looks good.. now we are sore on teh right. I'm assuming an over compenstation?? Oh how my pocket book hurts... :D:lol:


How is everyone else doing??

That's what my vet said when we were recovering from a medial colateral ligament tear diagnosed by US. We started with a month of complete stall rest- then a month of hand walking, one of hand walking under saddle and then one of trot unil we reached 30 min- my horse was then allowed in a small paddock and we started 3 min of canter work. Other treatments included HA injection at the time of diagnosis and adequan shots.
Altogether he was 6 months on stall rest- thank god he is good on stall rest- he was "sound" and allowed back out in may 2004- I think that he will always be weaker on this stifle and we do feel changes in weather and such, but all in all he's been fine since.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 11, 2007, 11:50 AM
Gr.Prix- the one thing my vet warned me against was NOT to do canter work, till we were stronger at the trot? Just as a thought.. anyone else informed of this?


I finally got an email back from my vet answering the 7 questions I sent him. One of his comments was to warm up in walk and trot. He did not mention canter.

Thanks for posting that your vet warned you against it. I do feel that he gets better after cantering though so I am torn. Maybe a couple of weeks of W/T would be what is best for him.

slpeders
Jun. 11, 2007, 04:42 PM
I have been a Clique lurker as my mare recovers from a fall on ice in Jan, but I had to tell someone that I got back in the saddle yesterday!
She's been looking sound in the groundwork for a while, so I figured I could probably get on and walk around. I was a nervous wreck, being a basically timid rider anyhow and getting on a horse that had 5 months without a saddle on her, but she was Golden. I am finally starting to trust that she understands "squeal/buck/run" and "Saddle on/person in it" cannot both happen at the same time.
Now I just need to figure out how to rebuild the 'bad' leg....it comes into/on the midline and she carries her hips left in both directions -- but only in trot.
More gait/anatomy/motion reading to do I guess...then to devise the right 'rehab' exercises. I'm more than open to suggestions.
Speedy recovery to all!! thanks for allowing my little celebration. :)

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:34 PM
slpeders,

Congratulations!! Good for you for getting back on your horse, I'm sure that took some courage on your part.

Do lots of walk work if your horse will allow and work the trot on straight lines for a while until your horse gets a little more fit.

Keep us posted!

Show_hunters
Jun. 11, 2007, 10:51 PM
My horse did have some minor swelling in the stifle, but not much and honestly unless you knew what you were looking for you would not have seen it.

As for med's: I have started him on Smart Packs Repair. Currently I am looking into getting him into a chiro person, I am sure that he needs an adjustment of some sort.


The Plan: When my vet came out he said that my horse was healing (and he had already had 30 days or so of stall rest and limited turn out), so he felt that my horse did not require sockwave therpy, but it would not hurt. So he said to put my horse on regular turn out (private paddock) and he also said that I should ride my horse (walking only) 1st week 15 mins 2-3 x's a week doing hills, then add 5 min's each week. Then at the end of 6 weeks, we re-ultrasound to see if we can trot hills and on level ground. The re-ultra sound him again 6 weeks later to see how he is doing.

Feuerlilie
Jun. 12, 2007, 11:38 AM
It is good to keep the stifles moving, so a bit of turnout is good news and they can start to repair themselves.

Well after the little panic I had yesterday, thinking Bella was going sore again, I watched her trotting around in her paddock tonight and she seemed sound...she even did a little canter for me...so I dont think she is sore (I hope not anyway)

The only thing that is nigging me a little is that she didnt want to go to the left, only went to the right, I hope it is my paranoid imagination :eek:

Anyway hope all of your horses are going well, and healing nicely.

SparklePlenty
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:01 PM
I have a general question for my ISC members....

My dad bought a racehorse (with some of his golfing buddies) and it has an old OCD lesion.

Anyone have any information on what an OCD lesion is? or how severe it is??


Sparks was full of herself yesterday and felt just wonderful walking around. After the acute laminitis incident last week i'm glad she's not 1.sore, 2. lame.. woohoo!!

slpeders
Jun. 12, 2007, 12:06 PM
Thanks for the encouraging words. :) yes, I was pretty anxious, so my mare pushed my buttons until I was more irritated than scared. Of course I was on before I realized that she'd kind of goaded me into it. She normally VERY good at the mounting block, but as I hemmed and hawed, she'd lean into me and nudge me off the block. Like she was saying "if you're not getting up here, then get down!" Yesterday was way better -- many less butterflies, and I was chatting with someone, so I used that as a distraction and purposely kept yammering about something as I swung into the saddle so I couldn't think about it too much. I tend to overthink things.....

Feurlilie, I wil keep a good thought that you were just being paranoid. I know the feeling VERY well!

I was very happy when my mare could go back in to the larger group from her private paddock. She's quite social, but she'd had a run of bad stuff after the fall and ended up having to be in solitary for a while so the other girls couldn't kick the stuffing out of her. I think the extra movement and the socialization has helped her tremendously. so has the chiro, acupuncture and bodywork.....and I think the Recovery EQ. :)
Light walking it is for now, maybe a few trot steps on a straight line next week. I'm thinking I'll alternate some ground sessions with ridden sessions and also walk the hill and perhaps some ground poles.

Happy healing everyone!

Helen of NC
Jun. 12, 2007, 02:13 PM
Good to read of progress others are having... especially since we've just been in "rehab mode" since May 23. While I've been given the go-ahead to ride strictly at a walk (on firm, flat ground, going straight predominantly), I've been doing a combination of hand-walking and walk riding (with help from my trainer when I'm out of town, traveling for work... you know, that activity that supports my horses). Since I was present for Stella's birth nine years ago, and have been a part of her daily life--and training--for all those years, I know her pretty darn well. Her confinement has made her just a tad bit anxious to get out and stretch her legs, though, and the vets warned me to keep Ace on hand should I need it (using 1 cc IM 30 minutes prior to any "stressful event"). Well, I've never, ever used Ace before on her--nor on her mother throughout our years of showing--so I was hesitant. But... she got a dose two Sundays ago when we had our first rain in forever, and it was a tad cooler than we've been used to, with the winds whipping for good measure. Let's just say I could read her body language, and it said, "Hooboy, let me the hell out of here... this girl wants to play!!!"

It helped... although I haven't used it since.

What really seems to help is something my dressage instructor taught me... singing in rhythm to the pace you want to go. Let's just say my "singing" isn't exactly for public consumption, but I croak something to the effect of "Stella-bella-boodle-boo-walk-two-three-four"... just as low and slow as I can, and it seems to keep her pace relatively even, whether I'm on her back or simply leading her. Of course, every now and again, I can't help but laugh thinking how ridiculous I sound. But it keeps me breathing, and conscious of our respective walk rhythms.

Stella's second shockwave treament is scheduled for next Monday by my regular vet, and the specialty vets are reading case studies of stem cell therapy specifially related to MCL (Medial Collateral Ligament) avulsion in the stifle; they've done stem cell treatments in numerous cases of suspensory ligament tears--very successfully--just not the MCL. Vet-Stem in California was more than happy to fax them the MCL cases for review.

So we'll see. If we do end up opting to try the stem cell therapy, it's recommended it be done sixty days after the last shock wave treatment. That would coincide with the timeframe in which I'd be taking her back to the specialty vet (two hours away) for re-check by ultrasound anyway.

Again, we're in this for the duration. It just really helps to read the experiences of those of you who are "over the hump," so to speak, further down the path to healing.

Rider in Training
Jun. 12, 2007, 05:38 PM
"Hooboy, let me the hell out of here... this girl wants to play!!!"

What really seems to help is something my dressage instructor taught me... singing in rhythm to the pace you want to go. Let's just say my "singing" isn't exactly for public consumption, but I croak something to the effect of "Stella-bella-boodle-boo-walk-two-three-four"... just as low and slow as I can, and it seems to keep her pace relatively even, whether I'm on her back or simply leading her. Of course, every now and again, I can't help but laugh thinking how ridiculous I sound. But it keeps me breathing, and conscious of our respective walk rhythms.

Again, we're in this for the duration. It just really helps to read the experiences of those of you who are "over the hump," so to speak, further down the path to healing.

Yep- I used to blast music in the arena as I was walking it was has much to try and even out the sounds than it was to keep myself from thinking to much and to have something to sing to! I was always hoping that no-one would hear me. I had never realized until then how hard it can be to hand-walk a horse...:-0) My TB had days when he would "loose" it pretty much every 30 seconds- 30 minutes of hand-walking felt like eternity! I also tried the horse earplugs but he would shake his head until they'd come out. After he spooked and threw me off just by taking a sharp turn- my coach started hand-walking us (i.e. I was in the saddle)- talk about looking/feeling stupid!
Good luck to all- it is possible to get over MCL injuries!

ivy62
Jun. 12, 2007, 06:38 PM
I am not sure I belong in this clique any more! My horse actually tested positive for Lymes and we believe that is where most of his issues are stemming from. So hopefully the lameness will be gone soon. Has anyone else done this?

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 13, 2007, 09:53 PM
Had the chiro out today. She said there were no red flags anywhere on my boy so I guess that is good. Wants to see him again in a couple of weeks. Two days off work for him.

He was so silly while she was there. Couldn't stand still, big time wiggle worm (don't forget he just turned 6 and is a WB) had the chain in his mouth and was flinging his head up and down, up and down. Then he was holding onto the lead rope and wanting me to pull on it like a dog with a rope! He also managed to turn the lights on, thought the chiro was gonna pee herself on that one she was laughing so hard. I told her how he will chase the lunge whip lash like a cat and pounce on it. He is a silly boy.

So has anyone else had the chiro out and had a GOOD report? I am thrilled!

SparklePlenty
Jun. 14, 2007, 11:13 AM
I worked sparks very very brieflly on tuesday while my good friend watched her go. She's got a slight hitch, but i think it's due to that muscle just not being used well.. she has the GO. right now.. So i'm hoping everything is on the mend.

Both vets i know said that because her Thyroid levels dropped so quickly, that was the biggest hurdle for her healing time. Guess because of the lethargic state it puts them in, they are sore, lazy and unmotivated. Hopefully since we've corrected that she'll start coming around better and better.

SparklePlenty
Jun. 14, 2007, 11:14 AM
I am not sure I belong in this clique any more! My horse actually tested positive for Lymes and we believe that is where most of his issues are stemming from. So hopefully the lameness will be gone soon. Has anyone else done this?

A few people at the farm have horses who've tested positive for Lyme(s) disease... They've made a great turn around now! :yes:

was your horse sore all over? or just stifle issues??

Good Luck!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 19, 2007, 02:11 AM
Ok so a bit of a rant here. Why do people give their opinions when they aren't asked?

Had the chiro out on Wednesday, was told not to work him Thurs or Friday so he had one week off.

I rode him today for the first time since the Chiro. Nice long walk warm up, into some long and low trot. He was nicely forward but a bit hitchy in the beginning as he has been. We timed it the other day, took 7 minutes for him to work out of it.

Anyway so a boarder come in and watches me ride. This is someone who has been around for some time and has a lot of experience or so she says. Up till now I have really liked this person. She basically tells me I am doing everything wrong. Says that when she saw him go before the injury he was very willing, now he seems uncomfortable and in pain. She said that I am forcing him into a frame and he obviously isn't ready and if I knew my horse I would know this. She kept saying I don't know my horse. That really pisses me off. When I said I do know my horse she said "then why are you second guessing yourself?" UM I'M NOT! I'm trying to get YOU to understand and WHY you ask am I trying to explain to this person something that has nothing to do with her???? I HAVE NO FLIPPIN IDEA! UGH! I'm riding in the wrong arena, I'm heavy handed, the footing is all wrong for his problem BLAH BLAH BLAH. I was totally insulted.

Ok. Well I do know my horse. I explained to her the nature of the injury. Explained that the vet flexed this horse up and down got no pain reaction. He has been x-rayed and they were clean. I was told this was a weakness and my orders were to work the horse not only in the ring but on the hills. I was told to work him past the awkward stage until warmed up and then continue from there. I explained to her that I did try and "put him in a frame" for a bit so I could see what his reaction would be, he has had a week off. He seemed to not be 100% confident that the leg would hold but when he did put his back into it he was lovely. YES there were a few moments that were ugly and he was behind the leg and against my hand but I wasn't FORCING him into a frame for half and hour I was asking him to try and use his right hind even if he was a bit uncomfortable for a minute. It never went beyond that. Each time he came through after a few strides and I didn't ask for more than that. I gave him tons of walk breaks and rewarded him with my voice and lots of pats for his effort. He was happy to work even though there were moments that were uncomfortable for him.

I DO know this horse. If he were in pain he would buck or kick out, pin his ears, refuse to go forward. He did all of this when we had saddle fitting issues in the past. He can be very opinionated. He seemed very pleased after our ride.

I was made to feel like a total horse abuser for giving my horse his PT. She had only ever seen him go one other time before the injury. She said he was a totally different horse today. UH. . . yeah HELLO?? What am I supposed to do rehab him in the dead of night when no one is around to watch and comment?

kiwifruit
Jun. 19, 2007, 08:14 AM
I know your pain, Gr. Prix Dreamer! It seems like everyone at my boarding barn is an armchair vet. I ended up going to the barn very early in the morning so I can avoid the "older ladies who know everything." When I would try to trot my guy to evaluate the lameness situation, I would get unwanted commentary such as "oh my god, he is really, really, lame!" or "he is really favoring that right leg" (he is actually lame in the left". Sure, I like the help but sometimes you just want to see it for yourself instead of hearing it from someone who does not know your horse. Hope your guy is on the mend. I just decided to to paddock turnout and it seems to be helping. I have an appointment on Monday with the vet so time will only tell.

ivy62
Jun. 19, 2007, 09:13 AM
To all of you- I hear every word and feel your anger, at my barn not only are they arm chair vets but trainers too! I know my horse and he will come through this wether his stifle is injured or it is just the lyme I will not know for a while but it is SOOOOO annoying! I too had to treat my horse for something and I did it late in the evening so no one else was there! I didn't want to hear it! Can we ride with ear plugs! Some people think they know it ALL yet they are very limited to what they have been exposed to....sorry for the rant

ivy62
Jun. 19, 2007, 09:16 AM
sparkle plenty- let's see he bolted from the mounting block and we thought it was a saddle fit issue, fixed that, but then he was sore in the back, mouthy and his attitude was awful! he was rearing and such antics just to be turned out. His flexion tests were awful! dragged his hind end, back was stiff as a board! So we shall see how he does after treatment...thanks for asking

SparklePlenty
Jun. 19, 2007, 09:26 AM
Ivy - You poor baby... <hugs> i really hope you guys work through this. Please keep us posted. When did your vet say they would get back to you w/results?

Gr.Prix- People are who they are... if you feel like you know your horse and are doing the righ thing, then dont worry about everyone else in the barn. :winkgrin: People will always think they know what's best... And then you will always walk that fine line of judgement as to what is right, wrong, too much.. too little... and scruitny (sp?). Cest la ve

Best wishes toyou all!!;)

ivy62
Jun. 19, 2007, 10:12 AM
Sparkle Plenty- what results? The Lyme titer is positive and we are treating that, everything else in time....just have to wait for the inflammation to die down and hope that is all it is.....This horse had been through so much before I got him, and he was only 4, I have spent the better part of 4 years putting him back together! People say I should have gotten rid of him because of all the issues, well they were physical not training and we have fixed them.....I can honestly say, I was so deflated when I saw his flexion tests 3 weeks ago and was ready to retire him to pasture until the test results came back positive....Hopefully Hurdle is on his way back! Thanks for asking...

SparklePlenty
Jun. 19, 2007, 10:46 AM
Ivy -
I'm a dork... :LOL: Somewhere in your posts i missed the whole positive Titer!!! I'm so silly.. Well definitive results always help.. :)

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 19, 2007, 06:48 PM
Rode my boy while my trainer was in the ring giving lessons. I spoke to her about the woman who made me feel like a horse abuser yesterday. She thought he looked very comfortable and said to keep doing what I am doing. She actually said he looked better than he did before and that she thinks we are over the hump! That made me feel so much better. I really needed to hear that especially since I spent the good part of this morning in tears.

I told her since I can't take lessons right now that I'd pay her the $80 to help teach me how to have a thicker skin! LOL.

kiwifruit
Jun. 20, 2007, 07:19 PM
SOLD! I'll gladly pay 80 bucks for thicker skin! I am such a wuss!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 20, 2007, 11:25 PM
You know I used to be such a hard a$$. Seriously, people always thought I was such a b!tch. I don't know what happened. If I got soft after having kids or what, but man I've gotta get that chip back on my shoulder before I make myself crazy!

I swear horse people can really be terrible. Especially if there is jealousy involved or egos. UGH.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 26, 2007, 04:03 PM
Well my boy is really coming along. Can't get over how quickly he seems to be recovering. He has no hitching at all now but still will have the hind end slip every once in a while but almost seems like when it does he is relieved.

When the chiro worked on him she noticed that his hamstring on the right side was rock hard. I am starting to wonder if maybe this wasn't a pulled hamstring rather than the stifle? Or a combination of a weak stifle causing a hamstring injury.

Weird thing is that yesterday I worked him a little harder per my vet and trainer. He was AWESOME, no hitching at all. To the right though in the canter he was still a little short on the short sides of the arena. Today though it was completely opposite he was wonderful for walk, trot and canter on the right lead, even gave me some bend which had seemed difficult period. The left lead canter felt not quite right, almost like he was four beating yet he wasn't. After doing some transitions it did seem a bit better but still nqr.

I have a lesson with my trainer tomorrow. I want her to tell me what she sees and make sure I'm not pushing too hard. He feels so good, I don't want to overdo it. If she thinks it is ok I'm going to sign us up for a show at the end of the month. We have missed 2 now but that isn't such a biggie, just want my boy well.

Still working the hills which has been an adventure. The other day we encountered the biggest red tailed hawk I have ever seen. He was eating a dead raccoon. When he saw my horse he flew away, his 6 ft wing span did not make my horse happy! He really wasn't wanting to go down the hill to where the giant bird was so we went around the back way and then boogied up the hill. He was very tense about going past the area where the dead raccoon was so we went on a different set of hills. We ended up being dive bombed by another bird who was squawking so loud at us that I just know in my boy's mind it was the giant hawk! He took off up the hill, I got him back but he got angry and was bucking, of course we were under a tree at the time, thank God for helmets! It was funny. I think he was trying to save us and took offense to me pulling him back.

Anyone else with a progress report?

Feuerlilie
Jun. 26, 2007, 11:51 PM
That is great GP Dreamer!

I must say that my girl goes better with work too...and works out of any stiffness...so keep up the exercise!

It has been a littel over 3 months since her injections!! and she is going great!

She has built up muscle through the backend and no longer "drops" through the stifles when standing. On the lunge she is moving BEAUTIFULLY to the left...but shorter to the right...so I have to really make sure I get her forward on that side and past the stickiness then she seems to be much better.

I also try to make sure thatshe is super forward...so she brings those hind legs past her stifle underneath herself when she is trotting....really making them work!

Inow have a seperata issue which is boggling me....I used to be able to sit her trot...now I cant!!! I am certain she is through, wiht all of this forward work....and her trot seems to have more cadence...maybe there is more trot to sit to now?

slpeders
Jun. 27, 2007, 11:15 AM
Wow - haven't checked in here for a week or so and look at all the good news! Nice to see folks making progress, whether it's getting solid test results or making headway with rehab. I am sorry to hear about the snarking done to GP Dreamer, but I'd guess we've all had some of that. At my barn it was the main trainer -- thankfully, I learned a few years ago not to take anything she says to heart.
My latest little 'yay!' moment was when the myofascial lady was out on Thursday and got little/no reaction in the usual places, Miss Mare loosened up nicely AND even allowed work on the carefully guarded inner right thigh!!
That's a first, and the MFR lady confirmed that there has been damage in there. Now we just need to get it squared away.....oh! and the pelvic twist is nearly gone. Due to the my schedule and the heat, Miss Mare has had nearly a week off, so I'm looking forward to seeing how she does tonight!

Feuerlilie - I'd guess you're right about the sitting trot. It may take a little time for you to adjust to the 'new' way of going, but it sounds like it's a good change. Hang in there!

SparklePlenty
Jun. 27, 2007, 11:34 AM
Sparks and i are going great for now!! :) I'm hoping we can keep the positive energy going..

We are no longer lame on the left stifle, but slighty off on the right. Probably due to overcompensation.. but she works out of it well. Doing lots of trot work. and will even start canter work this week. Vet watched us go yesterday and said it's time she moves forward. She said in about 2 weeks i can start going back over small cavelettis (sp?) if sparks is going really well. My trainer will be brought back into the picture probably next week so i can get a work ethic going again.

Glad to hear everyone is doing so well!! :)

Dune
Jun. 27, 2007, 02:56 PM
I have one that is doing well, we just starting cantering a bit. I've been handwalking up and down hills but just straight trot work in the ring. GPD, might I suggest that you get your boy OUT of the dressage ring? :yes: I think you said he's a big, young horse and a dressage ring is waaaaay too small of an arena for him to be trying to rehab in. Don't you have a big, jumping ring that you can ride in? (with good footing of course) The one that I'm rehabbing is a much smaller horse but still cannot go comfortably in a dressage ring, too much torque on the joints. Just a kind suggestion....:winkgrin:

SparklePlenty
Jun. 27, 2007, 03:22 PM
Rule of thumb for stifle rehab..


Straight lines as MUCH as possible... :)

murphyluv
Jun. 27, 2007, 03:45 PM
Well, I guess I have joined the clique. No idea as to what is wrong with my horse, but pretty sure it is a stifle issue. Always dragged hind toes to some degree, but started getting very noticeable downhill last fall, then worse this spring, then back pain after his back changed and saddle no longer fits. After testing for EPM and all kinds of things, vets don't really think anything is wrong with him.
I see a slight "popping" at the hock when he trots. He apparently doesn't drag toes very noticeably at all when he REALLY moves forward. still slightly drags toes downhill. he had 2 months off essentially while I was worried he had EPM or god knows what, now getting back in shape. Straight energetic trot work, some LARGE circles thrown in. (our arena is absolutely massive). All trot this week. Will probably start walking up and down hills next week, once or twice. Hopefully canter at end of next week in straight lines?
I just ordered Recovery EQ, thinking about the Adequan but want to try EQ alone to see what happens. He is getting a shot of Legend on Friday also to see what happens. Trying to figure out exactly what joint or soft tissue supplement he needs.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jun. 27, 2007, 05:53 PM
GPD, might I suggest that you get your boy OUT of the dressage ring? :yes: I think you said he's a big, young horse and a dressage ring is waaaaay too small of an arena for him to be trying to rehab in. Don't you have a big, jumping ring that you can ride in? (with good footing of course) The one that I'm rehabbing is a much smaller horse but still cannot go comfortably in a dressage ring, too much torque on the joints. Just a kind suggestion....:winkgrin:

Dune,

Thanks for the suggestion. Other than the hill work we don't really have another arena to ride in that would be beneficial to his rehab at this time. Our outdoor arena footing is very inconsistant, very deep in places. It is a much bigger arena but too much of a risk of repeating the same problem. My trainer has made it very clear to stay out of that arena with him and I agree.

I had a lesson with my trainer today in the dressage arena. She didn't feel that it was too difficult for him to ride the short sides. She feels he is doing very well with his rehab, even had us cantering in both directions. Lots of praise, she liked what she saw, I was thrilled. We even got the ok to go to a clinic in a week or so! She tends to be on the conservative side so I know things are looking good. She still said straight line work only, no circles yet, no lateral work.

Glad to hear so many postive things happening for so many. :)

murphyluv - sorry to hear about your horse but as you can see on this thread it isn't always the end of the road. There is a lot of great advice here, I hope some of it helps. Good luck!

kiwifruit
Jul. 1, 2007, 09:16 AM
Well, I got back from my 3 month checkup and the good news is my horse is 1.5 degree lame from 3/4 degree lame last time, but still lame. The bad news is that he is beginning to atrophy on the left side from not using his stifle properly. Vet and I were concerned since he might start to stiffen up without some sort of light theraphy so he injected the stifle with steroid only (I think Vetalog) and carbocaine to reaffirm his initial diagnosis of the first compartment of the stifle joint. While he was inserting the needle, he said the joint did not have the right feel to it. Ten minutes later, I had a sound horse, thanks to the carbocaine. Sent me home for three days stall rest to disperse the carbocaine and really let the steroid do its job, followed by small paddock turnout for two weeks. Then we start to walk and hopefully, things will improve from there. For those who had steroid injections in the hock, did they help? Did you work the horse right away or did you wait a bit. I know every horse is different, but how long do they last? Can you inject multiple times in the joint like the stifle? My vet opted not to inject with HA (although I started him on a series of HA IV this week just to really give him the best opportunity possible to come back sound) because he was not too sure it would help. Next option since we've done, pure rest, shock wave therapy and the steroid injection is just turn him out for a year and see what happens. I'll check back in two weeks to give an update. Thanks for listening!

CJ4ME
Jul. 1, 2007, 09:26 AM
Well, CJ did not improve with the Adequan and injections. Really, the stall rest seemed to help, but mentally he was shot.

Now I am going with the turnout and self healing. He goes out days and most nights because I think his arthritis (and mind) benefits and he is pretty good about not galloping around.

I am going to give it until this fall....and then see if he has improved. If he has, I will give him until Christmas and then start to rehab over the winter. If he doesn't improve I will make another trip to Cornell. For shockwave or perhaps surgery.

The more he improves with rest, the more I think the vets missed a ligament problem. It came on suddenly--literally overnight--and that just can't be explained by bone spurs.

Amy

Helen of NC
Jul. 1, 2007, 02:46 PM
The Fourth of July will mark six weeks since Stella's diagnosis of partial avulsion of the right medial collateral ligament of the stifle with bone fragment... that's a mouthful, isn't it? She continues to be confined to two bedded stalls with a very small temporary paddock in front of them. The stalls face two other stalls on the backside, where her 21-year-old mama, Jewel, and pasture mate, 26-year-old Pik, have access 24/7--when they're not out grazing in the pasture. She seems to have adapted well to her confinement, and seems reassured that she's in familiar surroundings, with just the pipe round pen fencing separating her from her buddies. She knows they're out there in the pasture, even if they may be out of sight briefly when they're behind trees.

She is still hand-walked by me a couple times daily when I'm around (4 - 5 days a week), and walk-ridden by my trainer when I'm out of town on business. She seems to be feeling comfortable--although she never had shown particularly noticable signs of lameness prior to her diagnosis, except at the trot. Her weight remains good. She receives a cup of Ultium twice a day, and she continues to be supplemented with her Smart Pak in the morning, containing Recovery EQ, ABC's Plus, Smart Vite E-Z Keeper - Grass and Natural Vitamin E. She also receives an ounce of Liquid Vet-Flex every day. Her hay is a combination of free-choice, local fescue, along with a couple flakes a day of orchard/alfalfa. And, of course, I let her pick at grass when I've got her out hand-walking her. Seems to be the highlight of her day... aside from the Mrs. Pasture's Horse Cookies she still gets when I put her back in her "jail" (she's been cut back to just 2 - 3 a day, though).

Stella has now had two shockwave treatments, and is scheduled for a third and last one on July 9, along with a re-ultrasound of the stifle. We'll see where we are, and also consult with the folks at Bonnie Brae--where she was initially diagnosed by ultrasound back on May 23--about where we go from here. Stem-cell therapy is a definite possibility, although I'd have to take her the two-hour drive back to Bonnie Brae, and leave her there for three days. They would collect a small amount of fat from the tail head on a Monday, ship it out overnight to Vet-Stem in California, and then inject it into the ligament on Wednesday. I don't like the thought of her being so far away from all that's familiar, even for a short time, but we'll have to make the judgment of whether it's going to be of benefit to her healing in the long-run. They have a wealth of knowledge of the procedure at Bonnie Brae--something my local vets do not.

Slow but steady seems to be the course we're on, and that's fine by me--whatever it takes, at this point. I know she'll be a much happier camper when she can graduate back to pasture access 24/7, although once she gets the go-ahead, we'll have to gradually introduce her back to the grass--unless, of course, it's gone by the time she's able to be set free.

Once again, it's good to read of others' positive journeys back to soundness here; it really helps.

SparklePlenty
Jul. 1, 2007, 06:26 PM
Kiwi- I did Stifle Steriod injections, you said hock..? Maybe you meant stifle? Well they did help sparks.. but i got worried i as going to injure her because she DIDNT feel pain. If you do "work" do it lightly as to rebuild that muscle(s) up.. glad to hear your horse is getting better!! HA Shots are always good.. i highly recommend them.

CJ - I know a horse who had a medial tear... the owner does SWT treatments and turns him out. Stall rest did not good for him.. so she's allowing him time to heal on his own. If you go that route.. dont kick yourself, many people do the same thing!!

Good updates!!:yes::winkgrin:

kiwifruit
Jul. 1, 2007, 09:44 PM
Hey Sparkle

Yeah...I meant stifle of course, the hock is another thread :) I turned him out in his small paddock only to have him trot soundly away from me. I almost cried to see my horse sound again, but I know that this could be only a temporary thing. Anyway, yes, I agree, slow and steady the next two weeks. I'll post back with more updates. Everyone, best of luck and keep the posts coming. It helps a lot to go back and read the my old threads and everyone elses to keep a running record of our progress.

slpeders
Jul. 2, 2007, 11:54 AM
Hi all!
A quick 'yahoo' from last night and a question....
First -- we rode along with our quadrille group last night to fill in for a horse who'd thrown a shoe. We were 'whip' (last in line), so it was easy to cut to keep in position if Miss Mare had trouble keeping up (which she really didnt...), but the best was that she REALLY wanted to canter with the group! I let her do a few strides of each circle. Such a sweetie....
Second -- the question: how do you deal with others' perceptions of where your horse is at in it's recovery? After practice, I went to put K back out and as I was taking her halter off, it was dinnertime. We were between the crabbiest mare and the chow line. The Crabbiest Mare was just going to bull through K and I and K turned told her in No Uncertain Terms that bulling through was NOT OK. I mean, wild mustang fight video antics! My sweet mare was Ugly - snaking her head, squealing/roaring, bucking and backing up this Crabbiest Mare all at the same time. I've never seen her so worked up!!
And Crabbiest Mare has never been backed down before this. It was interesting, but the thing that got to me the most was the barn worker's comment that "she moves pretty good for a "lame" horse!". I've heard the tone before and I know she doesn't think there's anything wrong with my horse. At this point, I dont' know that I'd say she was "lame", but she's not herself yet and she's nowhere near in the condition she used to be in. I'd never had ok'ed her being back in the herd if she was truly still lame.
Am I being too thin-skinned? (hmmmmm....maybe I can buy that thicker skin for $80 that was referenced earlier on this page!!)

Dune
Jul. 2, 2007, 12:58 PM
Yeah, you need the thicker skin. Actually, maybe it was a compliment or a reference to the fact that person doesn't think your horse is as lame as you think he is. Follow that? :winkgrin::lol: Anyway, ignore it. I'm also going to reiterate for others on this thread a dressage ring is NOT where you need/want/should be rehabbing. I realize that it may be all you have, but it still does NOT make it ideal. :no: Also, the footing should be firm but not hard and definitely not inconsistent or deep in anyway. Think light, airy not heavy/boggy. If your only option is a smaller arena, then trot the long sides and walk before you get to the corner, walk the short sides, repeat. Personally I would not advise cantering at all in there, get your horse out in a big jumping arena or on a galloping track with good footing. I don't want to offend anyone, just educate. ;)

slpeders
Jul. 2, 2007, 05:11 PM
Good points Dune -- thanks for the reminder, and the different perspective on the commentary. This person has a habit of being kind of....snide, so I wasn't quite sure how to take it.....in any event, I will let it go now. I will.
She honestly says too many things that make me go 'huh?' to spend too much time wondering what her intended meaning was, and if I REALLY wanted to know, I would just ask outright.
I've been staying out of the indoor for the very reasons you mention. Our outdoor has a much longer long side and isn't the deepish sand the indoor is.
I'm lucky to have slightly rolly well-ridden trail too....and a lake to water-walk in! We did that for the first time Friday night -- about 20ft down the shore and back. Again -- had to deal with lots of well-intended (I'm sure) comments when we started hand-walking and it was icy out, so we walked the barn aisle. The indoor was too deep and unstable. I'm sure folks just think I'm difficult! (which may be true too....)

Oldenburg Mom
Jul. 2, 2007, 11:03 PM
Well, here's the latest from me. I just spent $890 to find out there WERE injuries to his 'miniscus' ... I think that's a tendon. Tendon attaches bone to bone. I think. I had x-rays done, which were unremarkable. I had ultrasound done, which is where the injuries showed up.

At LAST I have an answer and am ready to proceed.

The next step is very very very slow return to work. The odd movement I saw in the right hind ... due to weakness in the musculature of the joint. First week: 15 minutes, every other day. Progression from there.

I cannot tell you how much that exam has bought me in peace of mind. The funny thing is... it's just as my trainer suggested: nothing much to do with the stifle except strengthen through slow careful steady work.

Maybe those older horse DO know a thing or two. ;)

ivy62
Jul. 3, 2007, 09:09 AM
for all of us living under the microscope.....I rescued an OTTb that turned out to have serious feet issues and if you've ever had to regrow hoof it takes along time. years in fact. it took 2 years and his feet look gorgeous! but he is always referred to as the lame horse! It hurts me because he is so beautiful and most people would have thrown in the towel but once I knew what needed to be done I did it and gave him the time he needed to fix himself. No I have not ridden my horse a lot but he is alive and happy, most of the time, but we have an awesome bond I believe. All the negative comments I think generate from people that do not understand the horses injuries nor that they can recover. Can an athlete return to work after an injury yes! but the industry has made people believe that horses are expendable if not being fully sound ALL the time. Look at the DL in major league baseball, boy that would be scary wouldn't it. Now my horse has Lymes and may have injured his stifle we are not sure yet still waiting to see.....sorry for the rant

SparklePlenty
Jul. 3, 2007, 09:27 AM
SLpeders - People talk.. and make comments.. and good or bad it doesn't matter. It's YOUR horse and how you feel about the recovery is the utmost important thing. Dont worry about what others think/say.. :D

Dune - i will strongly second that a dressage ring is NOT a good place.. but LONG straight lines... maybe it's an oversized dressage ring?!? And small hills.. going up.. mainly.. :lol:

Oldenburg Mom- Glad to hear you have answers.. :) It always helps to know what exactly is going on.. Good Luck w/rehab!!

Ivy62- I have an issue with the racing industry for that reason.. but we wont go there.. ;)

chism
Jul. 4, 2007, 01:16 AM
Does this sound like a stifle? 7 year old OTTB. Horse is not lame, just NQR, and relatively unfit. When warming up, he seems short behind, but even. At the trot tracking left, sometimes it seems as if his right hind steps in a hole, it goes out from under him a bit. I made my daughter trot him today so I could watch and he appears that he twists the right hind out when he places it down.
Vet is coming out Thursday. :(

murphyluv
Jul. 4, 2007, 10:47 AM
For those that had stifle ligament problems, what helped? I am currently trotting about 20 minutes a day after a week and a half of work. He got a shot of legend on friday, it did not seem to make any difference. vets don't think there's anything particularly wrong with him- although he drags his toes and there is a "pop" in the hock- I need thicker skin too! What bugs me is I think at least one vet who looked at him would have paid more attention if he was some fancy show horse. I could take him to the vet clinic here, and actually if my boss takes her horse I might ask if he can go along. He is now on Recovery EQ, but I think that takes a while to notice anything.
I started doing some work out in the field on a very slight hill. Trotted in straight lines, walked up the steeper end, trotted across the top, walked down the other side.
Trying to make things interesting for him- he's pretty smart, and if bored, protests. We're going to VT for 3 weeks, there are supposedly some trails there, so that should help.
chism- No advice, but hope the vet can figure it out tomorrow!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 5, 2007, 12:13 PM
Ok a little poll here if you please.

I told you my boy is doing better and he was. Rode him Friday in front of trainer, Monday morning sent an entry in for a show the last week-end of the month. Monday afternoon, nqr, Tuesday even more pronounced. Cancelled the clinic we were supposed to go to on Sunday and called the show secretary in MN and BEGGED them to return my entry that I am sure they haven't even received yet. Gratefully they agreed to do so. Where the hell was my head?

Anways while talking to the show secretary he asked me if I had injected my boy yet. I told him no. He said that he had the same problem with a youngster and they injected him and it was like a miracle. Hasn't had a problem since. He didn't remember what they injected with though. I have heard Legend, Adaquon, HA, Steriods. What have you guys used? And what were the results? Were they short term? Long term?

I know you guys have posted about injections on this thread but I'd love to get more info. Maybe I should start a separate thread?

I just want to do what is right for my boy. I don't care about any more damn shows, right now it's all about his future soundness.

Also did your local vet administer the injection or did you go to a specialty hospital to have it done. If I'm doing it I want to do it right. Thanks in advance!

SparklePlenty
Jul. 5, 2007, 02:33 PM
Does this sound like a stifle? 7 year old OTTB. Horse is not lame, just NQR, and relatively unfit. When warming up, he seems short behind, but even. At the trot tracking left, sometimes it seems as if his right hind steps in a hole, it goes out from under him a bit. I made my daughter trot him today so I could watch and he appears that he twists the right hind out when he places it down.
Vet is coming out Thursday. :(


Now i'm NOT a Vet.. nor do i claim to be one.. BUT.. :yes:it sounds like a stifle issue.. but as you mentioned he's unfit. Could just be something where he needs more muscling.

SparklePlenty
Jul. 5, 2007, 02:37 PM
For those that had stifle ligament problems, what helped? I am currently trotting about 20 minutes a day after a week and a half of work. He got a shot of legend on friday, it did not seem to make any difference. vets don't think there's anything particularly wrong with him- although he drags his toes and there is a "pop" in the hock- I need thicker skin too! What bugs me is I think at least one vet who looked at him would have paid more attention if he was some fancy show horse. I could take him to the vet clinic here, and actually if my boss takes her horse I might ask if he can go along. He is now on Recovery EQ, but I think that takes a while to notice anything.
I started doing some work out in the field on a very slight hill. Trotted in straight lines, walked up the steeper end, trotted across the top, walked down the other side.
Trying to make things interesting for him- he's pretty smart, and if bored, protests. We're going to VT for 3 weeks, there are supposedly some trails there, so that should help.
chism- No advice, but hope the vet can figure it out tomorrow!

Murphy -
If you have the money to go the clinic there.. i would, but only if your really concerned about his progress otherwise just give it time.. Which is the toughest part!! :yes: Was the legends given IM? or into the joint? It doesn't work like the "magic" drug we all wish it was.. heck the only thing that works that well is steriods.. Just stay positive, you sound like your on the right track.

I really need to learn how to use Multi-quote function!! :lol::lol:

SparklePlenty
Jul. 5, 2007, 02:42 PM
Ok a little poll here if you please.

I told you my boy is doing better and he was. Rode him Friday in front of trainer, Monday morning sent an entry in for a show the last week-end of the month. Monday afternoon, nqr, Tuesday even more pronounced. Cancelled the clinic we were supposed to go to on Sunday and called the show secretary in MN and BEGGED them to return my entry that I am sure they haven't even received yet. Gratefully they agreed to do so. Where the hell was my head?

Anways while talking to the show secretary he asked me if I had injected my boy yet. I told him no. He said that he had the same problem with a youngster and they injected him and it was like a miracle. Hasn't had a problem since. He didn't remember what they injected with though. I have heard Legend, Adaquon, HA, Steriods. What have you guys used? And what were the results? Were they short term? Long term?

I know you guys have posted about injections on this thread but I'd love to get more info. Maybe I should start a separate thread?

I just want to do what is right for my boy. I don't care about any more damn shows, right now it's all about his future soundness.

Also did your local vet administer the injection or did you go to a specialty hospital to have it done. If I'm doing it I want to do it right. Thanks in advance!

Ok - this goes back to my post i just said to Murphy... I've done Steriods and HA for Sparks. Right into the joint.. Steriods work really really well.. BUT (HUGE DISCLAIMER!) you can do more harm than good with them. The horse feels much better and will have a tendency to run, play, frolick harder in the field.. as well as convince you that he is doing much better. If you go that route.. go slowly with your work out. It does relieve the pain, really more masks the pain.. so that's when you take the time to get them better. I did 2 rounds of steroids and HA (legends, adequan etc). The first round sparks ran herself into the ground and was injured worse.. :no: The second time she got the idea... and things have gone great.

Stifle injuries are not fun to deal with.. be careful how much how fast you push. If your concerned about his future soundness then talk to your vet first, but give him time to rest and heal on his own.. the injections are NOT long term.. but can help when given properly.

Hope that helps..

yellow-horse
Jul. 5, 2007, 10:38 PM
Stifle fracture at age 4, 2 surgeries that failed to resolve the damage
What I did was turn her out for 2 years, initially she was very lame in that leg and we always worried about her other leg but she was a strong young horse then, after 2 years of 24/7 turnout she looked pretty sound although crooked, started trail walking at 10 minutes a day worked up to several hours, trail walked all over for a few months before starting ring work, she became sound enough with steady walking and H/A injections to be rideable for a few years, initially vet had said to put her down after the 1st surgery but while she was on 3 legs she also was eating and didn't look ready to go anywhere, she's still alive, lives in my pasture with my other horse, she's a great companion and very easy going to handle, she says she's going to dance on our graves, she'll be 20 in aug

kiwifruit
Jul. 6, 2007, 12:08 PM
I just got had my guy's left stifle injected with Vetalog only about 10 days ago. After doing the three months thing of conservative therapy, stall rest and handwalking along with an original injection of HA only in the joint, and two shock wave treatments, I did not see much improvement. Immediately after the steroid injection, my guy went sound BUT I was instructed to give a few days stall rest, followed by sedated, limited paddock turnout for two weeks. Vet was strict about no work, no running etc. At the end of two weeks, he will be going in a light work program to see if the joint holds. In the meantime, I'm giving Legend IV injections and chiropractic/acupuncture treatmentto see if I can jump start that joint. I was told if this does not work, well, then nothing will except the possibility of time, lots of time! I think the steroid injection is a good thing to disperse inflammation and help the joint, as long as you are not dealing with an acute injury. I was told steroids for any ligament issues is a no-no since it slows down the healing process. But in my guy's case, I think I'm dealing with a chronic situation rather than acute. Even with more turnout and walking around has improved his lameness. I pushed for the steriod because I thought the lack of movement and stall rest was killing my horse and his chances of recovering. Every one has a different situation, just take a look at all of the posts on this thread. But if you've done the conservative route and you are seeing limited results, you might want to explore the steroid injections.

Helen of NC
Jul. 6, 2007, 05:36 PM
I hesitate to post... and am knocking wood while doing so (quite a feat, I'll tell you), but it looks like Stella's on the mend. Had the local vet out yesterday for the third and last shockwave treatment and, while she was still sedated, had her re-ultrasounded. They tried their best to replicate every single view taken during her initial diagnostic ultrasound back in May, and in each and every view, everything looked improved. No more edema. No evidence of scarring. And, the most amazing part--the avulsion, which looked bright white, and was clearly showing as a separation in the initial ultrasound, was barely evident. Obviously, they're forwarding the images to the specialty vet for another set of eyes, but my vet was very encouraged. Hopefully, by the first of next week, we'll have some ideas as to how to proceed.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I compromised on the initial instructions of complete stall rest, with 30-45 minutes of walking (riding or hand-walking). We went with a modified version of that, with a small paddock of temporary pipe fencing around two stalls, so there'd be room for Stella to stretch her legs, without enough room to work up a head of steam. We opted to do this, as she's been used to 24/7 pasture (with access to a bedded stall at all times). We're also still hand-walking or walk-riding as well. It's kept her calm and sane, and she honestly looks fairly fit.

We did have an initial injection of HA directly into the medial compartment at the time of her diagnostic workup back in May. I've also been supplementing her with Recovery EQ, as well as a liquid joint supplement. Since we're only working her at a walk, and it took trotting her to the right to show even the subtlest signs of lameness, the jury's still out as to where we are in the grand scheme of things... and I know we're still at the beginning of this journey.

We'll see what happens from here on out; but again, at this point at least, all signs are encouraging. We still have the option to try stem cell therapy, but it may not be necessary.

Oh, and on a personal note, I managed to walk smack dab into the heavy wooden base of a carpet-covered cat climbing tree that's been in the same spot in my family room for 4+ years. Bent my toes under when I did it, and managed to break a bone "very cleanly" on top of my foot, just above where my pinkie toe and its neighbor converge. That was a week ago, and it still hurts like the dickens. At least I can get my foot into my old, stretched out pair of paddock boots again... though it took awhile to do so (for the first couple days, the ONLY shoe I could wear was a bright yellow, rubber rain boot). Oh, and I can now also depress the brake pedal on my truck... something that does come in handy now and then, even here in NASCAR Land. I suppose you could say I'm having sympathy pains for Little Miss Stella... and feeling incredibly graceless and stupid to boot!

SparklePlenty
Jul. 7, 2007, 03:20 PM
:sigh::cry:After all my ups and down this spring.. now summer i felt we were on the right track.

had a lesson today, more of an evaluation of our progress with my trainer.. when she informs me that she is off on her left.. Much better than the last time my trainer saw her. but off.. she did work out of most of it. But i swear.. not even 3 days ago she was moving great, going forward. felt FANTASTIC. And the vet felt that if anything she was slightly off on her right!! (over compenstation) but now this.. :sigh: i can't catch a break..

We decided 2 keep going w/her exercise program .. lots of warm up at the walk and trot... putting her into a frame, and hills. Not necessarily all of that at once, but you get the ideas. Oh, and a TINY bit of canter work so she doesn't get bored. Hopefully it's lack of muscle that's causing this on again off again.. or.. she's also REALLY in season:eek:, and may just not feel like using herself. It's "THAT time of the month" for her.. sore back, overly moody. etc.


:sadsmile: Oh well, its that kinda day i guess..

Anyway.. need to vent.. Thanks..

kiwifruit
Jul. 26, 2007, 08:51 AM
Well after almost five months, my guy is very lame again. At the barn that I board at they decided to turn him out in the paddock when he was really fired up in the stall. Of course, once they turned him out, he started to run, a lot and he reinjured his stifle as well as his collateral ligament. Now he is very lame again and on stall rest. I'm a bit upset about the lack of judgement on the part of the boarding facility to turn my guy out but I also know that once he is fired up in his stall, he will rear, buck, spin etc. I just wished they would have called me to either sedate him or take him for a walk. Anyway, vet number three is hoping IRAP or stem cell will make my guy pasture sound but I'm physically and mentally exhausted at this point. I'm in the process of starting to build a small barn on my property but then my husband (who is not horsie-smart) said something that brought me to an epiphany last night. What if he never gets better? Or he is always in pain? He is comfortable at the walk but hopping lame at the trot. What if I rehab him for a year, properly acclimate him to turnout again and he damages his leg again by running around and being a nut? Now what? I don't think I can keep this horse on stall/small paddock rest for the rest of his life. It makes me sad. Maybe I just need to take a deep breath and wait it out again for a few months. I definately decided that I need to leave the facility that I'm at for a quieter barn or one that is experienced in layups. Any thoughts or a shoulder to cry on? Am I the only one in the world that has a horse that is not getting any better? Thanks in advance for the support!

CJ4ME
Jul. 26, 2007, 09:05 AM
Kiwi

You aren't the only one. CJ isn't better. He trotted out sound the other day but that was one day. He has been unsound for 6 months now with no improvement. Right now he is on daily turnout and bute and he is still limping on that right hind...I don't know what to do now. More money, probably down the drain. I just don't know what to do now.

Its awful. :cry:

kiwifruit
Jul. 26, 2007, 10:29 AM
Thanks CJ4me. I really, really understand what you are going through. It makes me just cry to see my guy limp around on his leg. It was this time last year that I was moving up through the levels in eventing and now...well you know. I just don't know what to do as well. IRAP could run about 1K and stem cell is 3K. I think he is leaning towards IRAP since he's had 6 out of 6 horses respond to the treatment with positive results and it is a cheaper thing to try. Then I read some of the post regarding stell cell therapy saying that it really does not work.....boy, I wish I could get some answers and a semi-sound horse. Thanks for listening!

SparklePlenty
Jul. 26, 2007, 10:52 AM
Hey guys -

Kiwi i stand by what i posted on the other thread Gr.Prix started... Do what you feel is best. It's expensive.. i understand.. but you always run the risk of your horse never being sound again. Heck.. i'm facing it now. I'm sorry this has been so tough foryou.. i really really am.. <<hugs>> And i also feel for you because your facilitiy didn't take the time to check with you about your boy. .heck! Just ace him.. i know a few people who have done that for their Laminitic horses who get overly excited after stall rest. I dont know how serious your boy is.. but i know that a horse at my barn had a ligament tear in his stilfe. She gave him 2months stall rest.. then turned him out. And he ran and ran and ran. But she's going with the idea that he will heal on his own time. Now i dont have that kinda patience, since i only have 1 horse, but maybe that's something for you to consider if you're in taht place.

CJ - Sorry your guy is still off... it sucks.. and it's frustrating. Are you having the vet come back out??

For an offical ISC update for you alll.. we're trying Adequan and 2degree shoes on the hind. This is my last resort... she's not horribly lame, nor in pain. just NQR. But my check book cannt take anymore.. my parents are moving in the next year and i will have to find a place of my own. Which is exciting!! But going to be expensive.. it's tough in this area.:eek::lol:


Good Luck.. :)

kiwifruit
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:29 AM
Thanks Sparks for listening to me whine! Some days are better than others for me but today.....I just feel like giving up! Your right...1k to 3k is small changes compared to keeping a lame horse for the rest of your life but still......anyway....you can always move up to PA with Sparks in my new barn! I'm thinking of starting a stifle rehab boarding facility. Misery loves company!

jillya
Jul. 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Kiwi
I feel your pain and am going through a similar thing with my gelding who is NOT having any of the resting he should be. We tried a valerian supplement which helped a bit.

What is IRAP?

kiwifruit
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:02 PM
From my understanding, its something along the lines of gene therapy where they take blood from the horse, filter it out for cells that do something with inflammation and promote healing (like my scientific explanation?). My vet said once he draws the blood, I have three hours to take it to Mid-Atlantic vet clinic to have it prepared. Then they ship it back frozen to be injected in the joint later. Not cheap....I was quoted a price of 1200.00 to start but still cheaper than stem cell which is 3000.00. Fortunately my vet is going to Mid-Atlantic for a conference and he is taking all of my ultrasounds from New Bolton and his current ultrasound to discuss it with a few other vets. I'm hoping to get some sort of answer for further treatment.

jillya
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:06 PM
That's amazing, do you know exactly what your horse did or the extent of the damage to the stifle? My horse was scoped in June and they said he had a very very mild frey of the cruciate ligament that was starting to heal but he is so not quiet in the small paddock after 8 weeks of stall rest which made him insane.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
Kiwi,

I am so sorry to hear about this set back. I would be livid with the barn staff who turned the horse out.

I know you are frustrated right now and the doubts are creeping in. Your best bet is to speak to your vet about your feelings and let him/her help you to better understand how your horse is feeling. If he is truly in pain then for sure you have some things to consider. My vet told me that my horse is not in pain and I believed that, even defended that when one of the women at the barn was awful to me with his rehab. But now after the ultrasound I really wonder if he IS in pain, with that kind of inflammation he must be right?

With some horses though, like a friend of mine's, when there is a ligament or tendon tear things can heal up a bit short which causes the horse to have a funky gait but not have pain. Of course a horse like this can't go back to full work but they can do light pleasure riding and be comfortable in the pasture.

I can tell your are upset, talk to your vet and let them help you make some decisions on what is best for you and your boy right now. I definately think moving him to a different facility is a good thing. Hang in there! :)

kiwifruit
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:36 PM
Thanks Gr Prix Dreamer....yeah....I was devastated when I went to the barn the following day to see my guy limp out of his stall. I really like the barn and the people that run it but they are of the philosophy that any type of injury is best with turnout and time. I would love to send them the bill for the last five months of rehab but I've become zen about the whole situation and figured it would be a waste of time to get upset about it. Better to just to leave the situation and focus on the future. Anyway, thanks for the great support guys. Its nice to know that people are dealing with the same issues and frustrations. I know my husband would love to see this issue resolved in the near future. I think he is going nuts with all of my mood swings :)

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 26, 2007, 12:43 PM
I know my husband would love to see this issue resolved in the near future. I think he is going nuts with all of my mood swings :)

Oh boy do I know what you mean! We went out to dinner last night and we were talking about the move with my horse and the vet coming Monday and the insurance company not covering the stifle and I watched him put his hands over his face and just pull his skin down like a rubber mask! I said I was sorry, that I didn't realize this was stressing him out so much being that he isn't really a horseperson. He said it's all he's been thinking about for days now. Poor guy! What pleased me the most was that he wasn't concerned about the money he was worried about my boy and me. Gotta love a good guy.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 26, 2007, 02:42 PM
Ok I just found this:

http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/ocd.htm

Which sounds exactly like what is going on with my boy, yet the vet said it is not OCD.

Edited to add: If anyone is nearby I could use a good slap in the face right now.

SparklePlenty
Jul. 26, 2007, 03:32 PM
Boy do i know what it feels like to have a good guy!! Mine gets Uber kudos here for this past year.. Not only has he been by my side for all of Sparks ongoing issues.. Stilfe, IR, Thyroid etc. But my sister just got married in June (spur of the moment wedding!) and i was the Maid of Honor.. she's having a baby in Oct. so my house has been flipped upside down (i live at home) to get ready for this baby, and i'm planning her baby shower. Oh, and work.. LOL:lol:i dont know how i'm not an alcoholic! Oh wait.. i'm poor. hahahahah

Yes. i feel like all of us are dealing with this stifle BS on one level or another.. But i agree w/Kiwi.. its been great to have all of you to lean on through this!

Q- For those of you using Adequan/Legends have a preference which worked better?? I'm doing Adequan.. but the vet wants to use Legends in between. Ideas??

Gr.Prix Dreamer - There is a great joint supplement also called OCD that has shown to help those with "OCD"... not obessive complusive either.. ;)

ivy62
Jul. 27, 2007, 09:20 AM
I have been so confused over the last, lets say about 9 months. My horse was acting awful, attitude but then he was lame so we did x-rays no OCD or arthritis then he was sound and then he had a hitch in his right hind then it went away and so on. Proper diagnosis is key...I thought my horse had a stifle injury oh, forgot then he was bolting from the mounting block so I had a saddle fitter come and tell me my saddle was pinching him so I told my hubby I needed a new saddle....YIKES! and of course after trying everything out there, without having one custom made, I found one but the price was 3750 without fittings! I thought my husband was going to have a baby! He said if that's what he needs then go ahead...I was shocked.. Then he was lame again bad this time back as stiff as a board, dragging his hind end etc....I was in tears. My husband has supported me through this entire thing especially my moods with the sleepless nights and my short temper with our 5 year old daughter! I finally tested him for lymes and BINGO! high high titer and after 6 weeks of treatment he is finally on the mend....I just had acupuncture and chiro done and that seems to help both stifle injuries and Lymes have you guys tried that? I wish you guys luck and support with your horses problems, I have been there too...everyone at my barn thinks I am nuts!
Where are you guys located, I am sorry if you have said before but I do not remember.....Good luck with it all.....

SparklePlenty
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:14 AM
Hey Ivy!! :) Can i borrow your husband when i need a new saddle.. PLEASSSEEEE... :wink:

I've been considering having a Lyme Titer run on Sparks too.. atleast to rule that out. MY farrier who saw her a week ago said her hocks looked stiff..

She gets her 3rd Adequan shot Saturday.. that's the magic shot according to my vet and trainer. So Monday i am having another evaluation lesson w/my trainer to see what she thinks.

So Ivy how is your horse doin now? :)

Gr.Prix Dreamer - Find any results yet!?

ivy62
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:34 AM
Sparkle Plenty
My horse for the first time in months, 9 to be exact, is moving and letting me mount at the block. The best thing is he is not trying to kill anyone! With his aggression from the lymes he got kicked and had 18 stitches then got over that and got kicked again the other front leg and it looked like a wiffle ball bat! I was at my witts end. I would suggest to run the titre, big deal if it is negative but if it is positive! well it can only help.
The acupuncturist was able to tell me my horse's stifles were fine Thank g-d for that..I really feel for you guys, I have been there with other issues....keep us posted

Gr.prix dreamer any answers yet? I would be jumping all over my vet by now! How patient you are......

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 27, 2007, 06:25 PM
Gr.prix dreamer any answers yet? I would be jumping all over my vet by now! How patient you are......

I'm sorry I must have posted the results on a different thread, I swore I put it here. Thanks for asking, here goes:

I was not patient. I called daily and got nothing. Finally Wednesday, a week later, my insurance company called the vet to let them know they are cutting me off from stifle stuff in August. The vet called me right away. Said that the specialist at the clinic feels that there is way too much going on in the joint, too much fluid and the floaters in the fluid are too big. She also feels it is chronic which really pisses me off cuz I have been saying to my vets since I got this horse as a 2 year old that something was nqr on the right hind and was told he just needed to strengthen the area. It was so on again off again that I think they thought I was crazy.

They set him up to inject him on Monday. I was supposed to move him to the new facility for rehab on the following Wednesday. I decided yesterday to move him tomorrow (Saturday) and let him get used to the new surroundings and then have them inject him Monday after he has been there for a couple of days. When my horse is at shows and unfamiliar places he weaves in the stall so I thought this was the best thing to do, give him time to settle in.

The vet is optimistic saying that he has injected horses and they recover and never look back but at the same time he is warning me that it may take several injections before we get results and that we still may end up needing surgery. My insurance wants to cut any stifle stuff off beginning Aug 6th. The vet is fighting them on that. We shall see.

Today I went out by him to groom and graze him. The rotation on the leg seems much more pronounced now, he has had nearly a month off. I swear he was doing great when I was working him, looks worse with the time off. I am very curious as to what the vet will say I can do with him after the injection.

For those of you who have injected the joint, what did the vet have you do? Stall rest or back to light work? Thanks.

ivy62
Jul. 27, 2007, 07:11 PM
Gr.Prix Dreamer have you had another opinion? After my horse showing up with lymes I am very skeptical of some vets and did my own research. How long have you had this horse? Were the flexion tests off when you him? or anything wrong?
What are they saying to do?

Rockfish
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:06 PM
a quick update on us:
Rocky finally started jumping last month. He's held up great and is feeling stronger than ever. All this rear end building work has also given him a to-die-for trot. We're currently up to 18", mixing it up between singles, lines, and gymnastics, but no more than 8 jumps per session, 2x week for now.

SparklePlenty
Jul. 27, 2007, 11:17 PM
So sorry to hear your mess Gr.Prix.. When i injected Sparks into the joint i gave her a day off only because sometimes it can be sore. But she was never 100% even after the injection.. :eek: So, if you go through w/it and your boy is great just be careful you dont over do it because he feels so well. Like i said in one of my otehr posts, it's hard to NOT push them when they feel so good and happy. But use this time to rehab, strengthen that area...

Hope the moves goes well.. let us know how he makes it. Oh! Also. find out what your vet is using to inject with.. should be some sort of steriod/HA combination. I would also recommend doing joint supplements like Cosequin and Adequan.. can't hurt...

kiwifruit
Jul. 28, 2007, 07:22 AM
After Kiwi's steroid only injection of vetalog, my vet said strict stall rest for two weeks to give the joint time to clear out of inflammation and then walking under tack for about twenty minutes. He was afraid that if I put him back into work right away that the joint might give way because the steroid was masking the pain and could do more damage than good. It worked great...for awhile until the turnout problem. Keep us posted on your guy! Much jingles!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 28, 2007, 11:49 PM
Gr.Prix Dreamer have you had another opinion? After my horse showing up with lymes I am very skeptical of some vets and did my own research. How long have you had this horse? Were the flexion tests off when you him? or anything wrong?
What are they saying to do?

Ivy,

I have had my horse since he was 2 he is 6 now. He has always had something nqr on the right hind that came and went. I was told by my first vet that it was not a big deal, typical of a young horse, to work on strengthening the area. When I moved my horse last year I switched vets and had them do a complete exam on him when the stifle started acting up again. They examined him several times, never flexed positive EVER. They too felt it was a strength thing. We were working on hill work and he was getting better when he slipped on the hind end again and I felt it best to have more diagnostics done. That was when we did the u/s and found the joint the way it is. They say it is chronic so I was right all along, he was nqr on the right hind. We have done blood work on him before but I don't know if he was tested for lymes. I will definately bring it up Monday when he gets injected.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 28, 2007, 11:55 PM
Well we made the move successfully. He was a wonderful boy, all that showing has paid off. I bet he is wondering why I'm not braiding him right now!

He thinks the automatic waterers are the coolest thing ever. I was afraid he might not want to use it so I put a bucket of water in his stall too which I prefer anyway, but he can't get enough of the auto one, keeps drinking from it and looking at me like "hey Mom did you see that?" Too funny. I left him munching on hay and very relaxed. Tomorrow he goes out with his new Freisan friend, we will see how that goes. I am hoping he won't end up on full stall rest but if he does he has that huge stall and the small paddock, he'll do just fine.

Keep jingling for us about his injection on Monday. Yes they plan to do steroids and H.A. I sure hope it helps. Funny thing is he still doesn't seem like he is in ANY pain. He was so cute, showing everyone all his little tricks, what a ham! I sure hope he gets better but even if he doesn't I love that boy more than life so we will just figure out a new game plan. The old one will be hard to let go of though, thought GP was in our future, maybe it still is huh? Gotta keep on chasin' that dream. :)

SparklePlenty
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:15 AM
Glad to hear the move went well.. :) I posted on the HA injection thread you started.. so go read that already if you havent!!

ON an odd side note.. a friend of mine took her horse down to a special vet who is also a vet of the USET. One of his associates informed us that a lot of the ULhorses are on different mainetence injections, steroids, HA etc. in different places on their bodies. Back, Hocks, stifle etc..

So there is HOPE! I promise.. but it may not be a quick fix, which i s what we all hope for. I looked high and low for that fix, and never found it. Instead i've given up and am just trying 2 get Sparks back to a place where we can rehab till we are normal..

Stay Strong..

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:39 AM
SP - Thanks. He is getting injected in a couple of hours. I am really hopeful that this will work. Nervous about the whole thing though.

I am going to bring some print-outs to show my vet on a couple of different supplements that I want to try. One is Finish Line with H.A. and the other is SU-PER Powerflex with H.A. Both cost about the same but the second one has WAY higher dosages on everything and states it is for severe joint problems. Not sure which way to go so I will run it past my vet. I don't think he will be much help though as he feels that supplements are just a waste of money. He told me to just use straight glucosamine which is what I have done for the past month, also yucca. I am almost out though and ready to order again and figure mine as well go for an all in one type that has glucosamine, Yucca, MSM and H.A.

SparklePlenty
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:48 AM
Well... i've tried the feed through HA and didn't have much success. IF it's an option why not try Adequan IM? It's an injection that i am using and will continue to use as a maintence HA injection? It can be injected into the joint, but also into the muscle.. it's pretty pricey the first go round. Set of 7injections cost me 350bucks:eek:but i also didnt shop around.

May be worth a try...

I've also had really good success w/using Cosequin and MSM (seperate, not the new coesquin optimized w/MSM). And i know a few people on the board here who use SmartPaks use their Smartpakjoint supplement. there are a few to choose from on their website taht seem to work well. I've never used Yucca.. but have heard of people using it. I thought it was only a pain killer though (like bute) not necessarily a "repair" type supplement.

Make sense?? :)

Let me know how the injections go?! :cool:

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:56 AM
If the vet wants to do injectables that is fine too. If I can still use a feedable type supplement I want to know what he thinks on the two that I am interested in.

I swear by Yucca. My mare had arthritis and it made all the difference in the world for her. I use it on my dog too who has joint problems and he's like a new dog. Whether it will help in this situation who knows but it's all natural and can't hurt.

Thanks for the good thoughts, heading out there now.

ivy62
Jul. 30, 2007, 04:15 PM
Did I miss something? What did the "experts" say? Have you considered also doing acupuncture? Hurdle had it done for the first time and he seems much better...just walking off and swinging his back, he never did that before?
What kind of supplements are you looking for? what purpose?

SparklePlenty
Jul. 30, 2007, 08:19 PM
I'm soo ready to scream and cry!!! Had my trainer look at sparks after our 3rd Adequan injection and she feels like we're in the same place as we were before the injections. UGHH!! But on the plus side.. when i put her together and make her use herself she looks and moves wonderfully! So.. back to the same old ideas of pushing her through and getting her into shape. Hell it hasn't hurt so far.. so what's the worst i can do now... I'm going to give it a month and then if it's still the same call the vet back out. We have a GREAT realtionship now.. :lol:

Anyway. that's my vent.. thanks!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 30, 2007, 10:12 PM
So they started with lunging him and seeing if the head bob and hitching was still present which it was. Then they blocked and injected the interior joint which was the one that showed the abnormalties on the u/s. After waiting 15 minutes stuck him on the lunge again, no difference. Vet was scratching his head, said we should really see 80% improvement with the block. So he decided to try to numb the ligament to see if maybe the rubbing was causing him pain, said this wasn't a "diagnostic" test per sey but wanted to give it a try and see if the hitch or head bob went away. Waited again, back on lunge, no difference. So then they blocked and injected the middle joint, said the outermost joint was not the problem so didn't touch that one. Same thing, no difference. To the left my horse looked lovely even before the blocks, to the right totally different, head bob was very apparent. They even flexed him again on his left fore just to make sure it wasn't a front end problem, flexed just fine. This is so frustrating.

My vet wants my boy to be seen for a second opinion at the clinic. He said to give him 3 days turn out in the pasture and he would get back to me on how to proceed. His gut says that this isn't a joint problem even though the u/s showed abnormalties those might actually be normal for my particular horse. Sure wish they would have taken a bi-lateral view to make sure though. Anyway he says he feels this is mechanical, that it is classic hitching stifle. I explained to him about 300 times that the hitching was GONE completely when we were rehabing with the hill work and straight line work, he never really did acknowledge that. He said that if my horse was a "backyard horse" he would just splice the tendon/ligament and be done with it and hope for the best. But because my horse is a high quality WB with a show career he wants to get the second opinion. Honestly to me, he is just my boy, my love, I was happy to hear that the vet doesn't feel he is in pain. If he gets better and can return to showing, fantastic, that is my dream, if he can't and he is a pasture ornament well, he is MY pasture ornament and I'll love him still.

SP- I am in the same way of thinking as you. I feel like my boy was soooooo much better when he was working and way worse now that he has had a month off. I am going to follow the advice of my vet and give him the three days and go to the clinic for a second opinion but I really think that time and work is what is going to make the difference here.

I am just really bummed that after all this wait and worry I know nothing more than I did yesterday.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:24 PM
Did I miss something? What did the "experts" say? Have you considered also doing acupuncture? Hurdle had it done for the first time and he seems much better...just walking off and swinging his back, he never did that before?
What kind of supplements are you looking for? what purpose?

Ivy you must have missed the post about what the specialist said I think it's on page 11. After today's exam though we aren't sure if anything the specialist says even computes :(

I would consider accupuncture, the chiro that works on him does it.

I am looking for supplements for his joints but now it seems that they don't know if the joint is the problem so really it is a mute point until he is seen at the clinic although I do think I am going to order the Finish Line with H.A. and give it a shot, vet said it can't hurt.

Equuleus
Jul. 31, 2007, 01:28 AM
Here's something to think about, why give him 3 days off and then go to the clinic? You are supposed to keep the horse in some sort of work so that the clinic can see the problem. If you rest the horse and then the problem slightly improves and therefore might not be noticeable at the clinic, this is NOT helpful. I understand your vet told you to do this but I just question that logic since it is a subtle issue that is not readily apparent or easy to diagnose AND vets are expensive. Just a thought as I would do the opposite of what your vet suggested if it was my horse. This is assuming the horse is not lame but NQR with a hard to see and therefore diagnose problem. I am sure you don’t want the situation to drag out even longer….. I have been here and I know how frustrating it is. Hope you get some answers soon!

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:55 AM
So my horse has been off for 8 weeks with a mild frey in his cruciate ligament, he was 5 weeks stall rest until he kicked me while handwalking (he was also completely crazy in the stall even with 2 doses of the 30 day tranquilizer. then 4 weeks in a small paddock, he is still active in his stal at night. The vet checked him today and he was still really lame. He thinks he just needs more time and NO handwalking.

Has anyone been through this with an uncooperative patient? Has your horse gone sound?

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 08:48 AM
Gr.PrixDreamer I would definitely try the acupuncture, what have you got to lose? It seems to work on the entire body so instead of isolating the problem it does a whole body tune up.
I agree that what is 3 days going to prove, your horse has been off for a long time, I have been there, it gets so frustrating! The vets just think that we are bottomless pits of money and emotional strength. I am sure you agonize every day about this....If you are looking for supplements to reduce inflammation I would try anything with Devil's claw and white willow bark. If the joint is not the issue(?) maybe there is just some swelling that needs to be reduced. Working can do that to....let us know how you proceed...

jillya- My horse was on restriction for 2 weeks not because he was lame but he had an IV in his neck. By the end of the 2 weeks he was NUTS! I do not know what I would have done if I had to keep him in longer...good luck with this one..Can he be in the small field 24/7?

SparklePlenty
Jul. 31, 2007, 09:27 AM
Gr.Prix - :eek:I wish i could offer you more advice, but i'm just gonna hug you ok?? <<<<HUGS>>>> We're both in the same place.. which sucks big time. Did the vet say why they had you wait 3 days? or that was just his timeframe to get back to you? Did they watch your horse go u/s as well as w/o a saddle? Was there a difference? I'm thinking we should just all move into Kiwi's barn :yes::D and rehab our horses there!! :lol: I'm also considering Acupuncture.. but at 75bucks a session... I am seriously considering getting a second job just to pay for these treatments.

Jillya - Welcome to the ISC.. I personally did not have any issues with Sparks on Stall rest.. but i know of people who have used Ace, Quietex or stuff along those lines to keep their horses quiet. Someone here created a small turnout paddock for their horse off their stall.. and that's a GREAT idea. Allow them to move around and yet get rest.

As far as recovery time... the people you see on here as "regular posters" have not recovered yet. Our injury was in March.. :sigh: here it is almost August.

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 09:40 AM
Sparklepenty- our vet who did our acupuncture did once and is coming back in 2 months just see him and do a check up. She doesn't have us on a regular schedule as you say....It might be worth it just to have one time done and see there is any improvement. One month ago Iw as at my wits end with my horse but I am now riding him again, slowly but that's because he has been off for 9 months!
Where are you located? Wish we all lived near each other we could at least have the understanding of each other as we go through this......People at my barn are not very supportive to say the least.....

SparklePlenty
Jul. 31, 2007, 10:54 AM
I'm in Maryland.. :) I think most of us are located in the MidAtlantic/North East. Kiwi is up in PA and just built a new barn i'm considering moving there.. hahaha.. we can all recoop together. Good idea eh?

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:01 AM
Do horses ever come back sounds from a stifle strain?

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:54 AM
Equuleus - The horse has not worked in a month and since that time has become worse, the lameness (head bobbing) very pronounced. The vet said to give him 3 days off and turn him out. In that 3 days he plans to talk to the clinic to see how to proceed. I think the vet wants the clinic to see him in the same condition that my vet has. When I was working him a month ago and rehabing him he was coming along great. I stopped because he had another really bad slip of the hind end u/s and I wanted the vet to make sure we weren't dealing with something bigger. They did the ultrasound and found the abnomalties in the joint and told me not to work him until they knew what was going on. He had already been off a week or so before the ultrasound and it took forever for them to get back to me. That is why he has had all the time off. Trying to be cautious, hope that makes sense.

Jillya - yes horses can come back after a stifle injury. I am hoping for a full recovery on my horse as are others here. Good luck to you. Don't be afraid to ask questions, we have been through it all on this board, it's very helpful.

Ivy- I am totally for trying accupuncture. I can even split the call with another lady at the new barn who uses the same person I do!

SP- thanks for the hugs, right back at ya!

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:59 AM
Thanks
He is not to be handwalked or anything and to be in a small paddock for 6 more weeks to be re-assessed. He has had adequin and legend, he is on Brain Cool to help quiet him along with 2 doses of Modicator. Is there anything else anyone has tried or could recommend or suggest to me? He still is his worst enemy by being too playful, not all the time but at least once every few days for short periods.
Thanks very much.
Jill

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:07 PM
jillya- is he getting any kind of grain? can it be cut down so he doesn't get hot from it....Now is a good time to spend ground time, I mean playing with him, don't let him be bored. I am sure there are exercises he can do I mean stretching his front end massaging his back stuff like that.
good luck

Sparkleplenty I am in downstate NY we should have a convention for all horse owners that spend more time rehabbing then riding! Where in MD are you? I went to college down there UMCP long ago though.....

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:51 PM
Thanks
He doesn't get any grain just low sugar course hay. He is just generally like an ADHD toddler.

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:03 PM
jillya will he play with a beach ball or toys to keep him busy?

SparklePlenty
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:07 PM
I feel like this is more of the Injured Stifle Chat.. :lol:


For the stall bound horse i would recommend a supplement to quiet them down.. a radio.. or a toy of some sort. Make sure though that he doesn't stand around TOO much.. like the stall needs to be big enough for him to move in. Otherwise that joint can fuse together and he wont heal properly.

Ivy - i just graduated from UMCP last fall.. my horse is outside of Annapolis and i live 20min from there!!

Gr.Prix- I know that the vets diagnosied him w/hind end issues.. but i would still look into the front end if that head bob is still around. Hell may as well get the complete work up. Which clinic are you heading too??

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:13 PM
Sparkleplenty- I guess I am an old fart! I graduated in 1985! I wish they had their Equine Management classes when I was there....have you ever been to Fair Hill?

My horse turned out not have a stifle injury after all but you guys have always been so supportive..thank you
As you know ours was Lyme's!

Gr.PrixDreamer- I agree-head bobbing is generally the front end....well let me know if you have the acupuncture done still think it might help

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:37 PM
Ivy he has toys, won't play with balls, hardly with his cone, he likes his milk bottles and I bought one of those rolly things for in the corner of his stall. He is just very active, smart and playful. I feel so bad for him.

ivy62
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:41 PM
It is hard I know and we are stuck sometimes with the realities that,"well let's just hope for the best" I hope he gives himself time to heal Can you ace him and walk him or hand graze him just so he can get out?

jillya
Jul. 31, 2007, 03:57 PM
He is out in a small paddock for 12 hours a day. I can't handwalk him now the vet wants him to rest as even on ace he is unreliable. A few weeks ago he kicked me in he chest and sent me to the hospital. I am picking grass, scratching him, etc.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Jul. 31, 2007, 10:31 PM
Gr.PrixDreamer- I agree-head bobbing is generally the front end....well let me know if you have the acupuncture done still think it might help

Yes, generally it is a front end issue but the vet says that this is him compensating for the hind end, throwing the weight on the front and doing what looks like a classic front end head bob. The vet is POSITIVE of this and has flexed this horse several times in front, first time back in November and twice more till now. He is convinced it is compensatory.

SP- we have had the complete work up done on this horse, several times now lameness exam wise. At the clinic I am hoping they will take a bi-lateral view of the other stifle so we can compare the joints. I am hoping too that they will listen to me when I say that this time it came on sudden and I feel was an injury. The injury was getting better with work. Since he has been on t/o only he has gotten progressively worse. Sounds like my vet wants to splice the tendon/ligament whatever. He wants a second opinion.

Vandy
Jul. 31, 2007, 10:59 PM
Count me in as a new member of this clique, although unfortunately I've been an "unofficial" member for quite some time now :sigh:

I have 2 older TBs with stifle problems - one who has had chronic issues for years (stifle injections have helped greatly), and another who just started having issues following a nasty bout of lymphangitis in his left hind. This is the one I am seeking some advice on. I've never seen a case of lymphangitis as extreme as his (neither had my vet) - the swelling was just unbelievable, and despite heavy-duty antibiotics, he was barely weight-bearing on that leg for days.

It seemed like he'd made a great recovery and vet gave go ahead to return to light work about 10 days ago. At first he looked great...However, over the past few days, his left stifle has been catching and he has been stumbling. Today it was really bad...of course, my vet is out of town, but I will get him out ASAP, and rest the horse until then. Anyone have experience with post-lymphangitis stifle issues? Please forgive me if it's somewhere on here...didn't get through all 12 pages though I'm working on it. I had really hoped he'd have a full recovery, and it seemed at first like he had...Poor old guy, he is just the sweetest thing ever, and it's so painful to watch him struggling :(

Sending my best wishes to my fellow clique members!

SparklePlenty
Aug. 1, 2007, 10:18 AM
Vandy - Welcome.. this is a great place to vent and run ideas past each other. I knew a horse who had a puncture wound that blew up like a big marshmellow ALL OVER!! Felt like he was hiding rice krispies under his skin.. But it did get better over time. Are you doing any other injections? Like Adequan? Or oral joint supplements? I'm currently working back into a strengthing schedule of hill work and ring work.. Maybe just long walks up and down hills for you guys would be good?


Gr.Prix- I remeber now that you did the full work up!! I'm so silly some days.. did yu get your appt. yet?

Jillya- Glad you are ok!! Kicked in the chest! Sheesh.. that's pretty intense.I would still recommend ace if hes still being goofy. But if he's in a small turnout right now that's the best thing for him.

Stacie
Aug. 1, 2007, 10:53 AM
I spent a few years in S.CA and most places have no turnout there. Most horses are kept in 12 x 24, 24 x 24 or of they are really lucky, 24 x 48 pipe stalls with a sun shade. And they lived like this 24x7. And they were, for the most part, not crazy. I wonder if they were able to handle it better because pipe corrals allow them to see other horses, interact through the bars, see the sky and feel the breeze? They definately had herd politics going on. Or do they just not know all about bug grassy pastures with room to run?
Has anyone had experience with a setup where a stall rested horse was in stall with a small run next to other horses? Do they do better? I wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have a bunch of rehabs in the same place with a nice pipe corral setup.

I also had the experience where a BM put out a filly that was supposed to be on stall rest or quiet turn out and she hurt herself again running around. She ended up needing surgery because of that :-( . Some people are just so...stupid.

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Aug. 1, 2007, 11:52 AM
Gr.Prix- did yu get your appt. yet?

Made the appointment this morning. The earliest they can get us in is next Wednesday the 8th. My insurance cuts off on the 6th. :( Trying to work with the insurance to see if they will extend it out since we don't have an official diagnosis yet. Also trying to see if there is another hospital or clinic that my vet can refer us to so we can get in quickly. Regardless this needs to be taken care of so he will be seen insurance or not. If he ends up needing surgery I guess I'm outta luck.

Vandy - Welcome. Sorry to hear about your horses. Hope you get some good advice.

Jillya - I know how hard it is when they are a high energy horse. Luckily for me they haven't confined my boy to stall rest yet. I think my vet knows that it would cause more harm than good.

Stacie - Maybe we should all get together at Kiwi's, put some pipe corrals up and see how it works!

It is amazing how many stifle injuries there are just on this board.

kiwifruit
Aug. 1, 2007, 12:49 PM
Hey misery loves company! Funny you should mention that Grand Prix Dreamer, my fence guy is going nuts because I've mapped out two recovery paddocks for my guy. One for the first half of stall rest, the second for the later half of stall rest. He must think I'm nuts! Anyway, sorry Grand Prix Dreamer about your situation. Insurance companies, in my experience, are never helpful when it comes to paying out. I guess that is why I ditched the insurance. I'm sure they would have said my horses stife was chronic and therefor not covered. I hear ya about doing what it takes! I think I'm going down for IRAP to start, followed by stem cell, and hopefully by then the bionic leg. I hope they take payments. Keep your hopes up and let us know how it all works out. I'm still waiting for New Bolton to forward my ultrasounds to vet number three to get the diagnosis. Gives me time to save up for IRAP.

Hey Jillya- you don't board at the same facility that I do. The BO turned my guy out without sedation the other day since he looked crazy in his stall. I guess running around on an injured leg is alway good for horses :) Everyday I gotta go an beg them to give my horse sedation (or do it myself) since they always forget or decided that he does not need it. Maybe I should start sending them the bills! Anyway, I tend to use a lot of sarcasm when I'm upset! Best of luck!

Gr.Prix Dreamer
Aug. 1, 2007, 01:16 PM
and hopefully by then the bionic leg.
I use a lot of sarcasm when I'm upset! Best of luck!


LMAO!!! :) :) :) Thank you!

ruffian12
Aug. 2, 2007, 12:47 AM
I think I posted here about six months ago--I have a 4 y.o. draft-x who had upper fixation of the patella at that time. Chiropractic, massage, and turn-out solved the problem in about a week.

New problem! At a show this Saturday (in very muddy footing) my boy slipped in a turn and apparently torqued his left stifle pretty badly. he walked out of it fine, and I took him home and hosed him, gave him some Bute. The next morning he was dead lame. Xrays are clean so no fractures, but my vet is pretty sure he has injured the collateral ligament in his stifle. The ultrasound was not able to reveal how bad the damage is. Clearly it is pretty severely strained, but not completely severed because she was able to palpate it. He got 8 grams of Bute that day and steroids. He had less pain and finally was able to bear some weight on the leg.

Obviously, he's on stall rest (he's already getting a bit antsy) and the vet said if he was bearing weight on the leg again today (still on bute, but 1 gram now) I could try hand grazing him. We walked ten steps out of the stall and he was pretty three-footed. Breaks my heart :(

Does anyone have experience with this kind of ligament injury? Time-frame for recovery? Were there difficulties with diagnosis using ultrasound? I'm so worried this could be something he might not recover from. My vet has a "wait and see" attitude, which is appropriate given how early it is--but I'm ruminating about how awful this might be and it's hard to find good literature online. Any advice, suggestions or insights are greatly appreciated!

ddashaq
Aug. 2, 2007, 01:14 AM
I am looking for opinions on whether or not I should get a second opinion on my horse's stifle problem. I love my vet, she is wonderful for everyday type problems and I trust her judgement for the most part. However, when she diagnosed my horse with a stifle injury, she watched him move (obvious limp and toe drag), flexed him, and took rads. The rads were clean which ruled out bony changes and left us with a soft tissue diagnosis. She told me to ride him 1-2 days a week on bute, no circles/lunging or jumping and just let him decide what he feels up to doing. Like if he is resistant to cantering that day, just don't ask him to do it. For 3 months I have been doing what she said and he has gotten no better. (Let me add, he actually got worse about 6 weeks ago but that was attributed to some really poor trimmings by my farrier. I have since switched farriers and we are correcting those issues with shoes.) I am curious if those of you dealing with stifle probs think that I should get a second opinion. A friend of mine is a vet student and spent several days at a lameness convention where she was told stifle probs always need rest and then slow reintroduction to work. She is also baffled as my vet did not block the stifle nor did she recommend ultra sound, and thinks it might be time for a second opinion. Thoughts, comments, opinions?

**Thanks for reading my spiel!**

SparklePlenty
Aug. 2, 2007, 09:47 AM
DD - I did Xrays/Ultra sound.. injections.. blocks.. slow work, no work.. stall rest.. etc.. etc. Sparks injury was back in April and here it is August and she's still not "even" in her hind end and may never be. If you want a second opinion go and get yourself one.. i'm sure your vet is a trustworthy person, but if you feel he/she missed something then go ahead and get another opinon. I've considered it myself except my pocketbook wont allow me for any more diagnositics. Is your horse on a good joint supplement? How about Adequan or legends? If you'd like to have the joint injected/blocked give that vet and call and ask them to do it.

your treatment course depends on you.. many of us on here have done a lot of different treatments. Heck, Kiwi is looking into stem cell therapy. buti know people who have just turned the horses out for 6mnths -1year and let them heal on their own.

Good Luck and Keep us posted!

ddashaq
Aug. 2, 2007, 10:56 AM
Thanks, Sparkle, it is nice to hear that my vet did not suggest a completely off the wall treatment. My horse has been off for a year, so I am not super confident that he will ever be sound again without the help of bute. Right now I am thinking that I will get a second opinion with the nearest thing to a lameness expert central Iowa has and then have a chiro out. After which I am calling it quits in term of spending money on this injury. He is not a show horse, so if he never takes a completely sound step again, that is OK. I hope everyone else's horses are doing better than mine is!:)