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View Full Version : Donating your horse to a zoo for Tiger/Lion meat?



Horsecrazy27
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:04 AM
A friend of mine did this a little bit ago, anyone able to do it?

I don't think I could. YIKES.

I did call and ask for the details for my benifit. You have to call to make sure they need the meat as they don't like to hold it--they want fresh. If they are good on taking the horse, they have you bring him in with a halter and then leave him. They give you free tickets (4) for your donation to the zoo, then they wait for you to leave. They have an "expert" who shoots the animal and nothing is wasted.

My friend who did this told me that since she could not burry her horse, that she didn't want the "truck" to pick him up to take to the by product place, which I guess is also not very nice.

Prieta
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:10 AM
I will not do this. I am sure that my horses will smell, will see, and will hear what's out there and will feel frightened by what's out there. Therefore, I will not subject my "children" to this frightening experiences.

equusrocks
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:11 AM
I don't think I could. YIKES.

I did call and ask for the details for my benifit. You have to call to make sure they need the meat as they don't like to hold it--they want fresh. If they are good on taking the horse, they have you bring him in with a halter and then leave him. They give you free tickets (4) for your donation to the zoo, then they wait for you to leave. They have an "expert" who shoots the animal and nothing is wasted.



Ditto. I also think 4 free tickets to the zoo is a bit tacky in that sort of situation, but I guess it depends on how you viewed your horse. I don't want my horses life to end that way. If I can't bury him here, I have friends with tons of land and horses, hopefully I can give my guy a quiet end and a nice spot to rest his body. :sadsmile: They've given permission already, and have other "friends" horses buried in various spots. I just hope I'm blessed enough to be able to give him a noble end, after all he gave me. Leaving him in strange hands to be shot and fed to hungry animals doesn't do it for me. Personal choice.

somethingtogamble
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:11 AM
YIKES.

Couldn't even fathom dropping a horse at a zoo.

Prieta
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:15 AM
Be sure to check with the county to see if you can bury your horse out in the land. It is much more dignified and beautiful to see a tree growing on top of where your horse is buried.

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:15 AM
While I wouldn't do it to my guy, I can't slam another if they did. I understand the "no waste" argument. And frankly, it seems kinder than the slaughter houses.

Kate66
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:25 AM
While I wouldn't do it to my guy, I can't slam another if they did. I understand the "no waste" argument. And frankly, it seems kinder than the slaughter houses.

Agree completely. For those people that would take their horse to auction this sounds far nicer. At least they won't be stuck in a holding pen for ages and as long as the guy doing it does it quickly and immediately it sounds far preferable to some of the alternatives.

mayhew
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:25 AM
I'd feel comfortable with it if I could be with my horse when they shot it. I don't like the idea of leaving them there.

jparkes
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:36 AM
I don't have a problem with it. When I was younger and living back east, we would take the old or injured horses to the hounds that were used for foxhunting. It was traditional for the old foxhunters to die this way. So, I don't look at the zoo situation any differently.

Gracious
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:37 AM
No thanks.

There is no way I could do that to my horse. I, like others who have posted here, wouldn't bash someone who did but it's definitely not an option for me.

Kimberlee
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:41 AM
Thank you for posting the info. It does give another option to those that are looking outside the traditional choices.

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:44 AM
I also visited the zoo (this was before she did this) and my vet. really supports the idea and it was something I said in passing to my friend. Then she did it. When I was there visiiting I saw 2 horses, so I went to the main office and asked what was up with the live horses out with the zebra's! She said that someone brought them there, nothing wrong with either of them, but the owner didn't want anymore. So, they have kept them and have had them for several years. They did not feel like they should take the life of a perfectly good horse. They said they prefer to get horses that NEED to be put down. They also said they treat those horses with the utmost respect and said that with out those kind of contributions, they would not survive.

I know I wouldn't be able to do it. The last time one of my horses passed on, I was living on a 380 acre ranch and she was burried looking over a polo field with an apple tree planted on her. It was a wonderful feature and a wonderful end for a wonderful horse.

OH, by the way, the parking lot is FAR from the lions and such----around 10 acres away.....they are led into a fenced in area and tied to a post. SO, although they can no doubt smell, they aren't looking at the faces of hungry lions and such.

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:45 AM
I don't have a problem with it. When I was younger and living back east, we would take the old or injured horses to the hounds that were used for foxhunting. It was traditional for the old foxhunters to die this way. So, I don't look at the zoo situation any differently.

I have never heard of this? Am I understanding you correctly?

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:46 AM
I have never heard of this? Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, some still practice this.

Ibex
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:46 AM
While I wouldn't do it to my guy, I can't slam another if they did. I understand the "no waste" argument. And frankly, it seems kinder than the slaughter houses.

:yes:

It wouldn't be my choice, but still better than other options out there.

Nottingham
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:47 AM
In South Africa it's common practice to donate your horse's body to the lion parks. It's sort of like recycling. People there don't even bat an eye.

That being said, I would have to be in a desperate spot (ie...burial or removal not possible for some reason) to take my babies to a zoo as their final resting place.

AnotherRound
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:47 AM
I just think the horse can smell or sense the predators. There isn't much lost on a horse when it comes to a horse-eater animal in the vicinity. I would not want that kind of fear and stress to be a part of his last minutes.

merrygoround
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:49 AM
While I wouldn't do it to my guy, I can't slam another if they did. I understand the "no waste" argument. And frankly, it seems kinder than the slaughter houses.


and the auction that precedes the trip to the slaughterhouse. :(

Ware Whip!
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:50 AM
As far as giving your horse to the hound kennel, yes this still goes on.
It is a traditional way to give back to the sport that give's so much.

Ware Whip!

Cherry
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:57 AM
Although sending horses to zoos and the hounds is done I just don't get it.... Be that as it may.....

Peggy Jett Pittenger, who wrote the book on reschooling Thoroughbreds, wrote that one of the best Thoroughbred mares she ever owned came from a zoo where it was intended as the animals' meal. I don't know if she had an "in" at the zoo or if they sold horses instead of killing them as a general rule but I thought that was a very telling story she wrote. The mare turned out to be a winner as a steeplechaser and had several foals who were equally as talented. :yes: :)

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:59 AM
In South Africa it's common practice to donate your horse's body to the lion parks. It's sort of like recycling. People there don't even bat an eye.

That being said, I would have to be in a desperate spot (ie...burial or removal not possible for some reason) to take my babies to a zoo as their final resting place.

You know, the same can be said for the people that have donated legs and such for research after their animal is put to sleep. That takes some serious soul-searching and thought. I'm not so sure I could even do that. But my hat's off to those that have. Probably helped save a life.

Huntertwo
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:08 PM
No, I could not do it to my girl. When the day comes, I want it to be as peaceful and non-frightening as possible.

Plus couldn't imagine walking by the Lion exhibit (with the free passes) and seeing a Lion gnawing on my pony's leg.;)

jparkes
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:08 PM
I have never heard of this? Am I understanding you correctly?

YES! I even remember a line vaguely that went something like this..."If the foxhunter can no longer hunt with the hounds, then it can be happy hunting in the hounds belly".

I hope there's somebody out there that knows the old line correctly, but it's very close to that!

Chef Jade
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:10 PM
If I could euthenize my horse instead of shooting him, then yes. Unfortunately, they can't feed meat from a euthenized animal. :( The whole shooting thing just seems so barbaric. (ick!)

MandyVA
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:14 PM
I oppose slaughter, and would not take my horse to be fed to the hounds or the lions. But I would not be opposed to someone else taking their horses to the hounds or zoo as far preferable to the auction/slaughter route. At least the zoo and the hunt club eliminate the auction/shipping/assembly line, which are the parts of slaughter to which I object, not the actual killing and eating of the horse. And the horse slaughter prevention bill pending in Congress would not prohibit either the zoo or hunt club from putting horses down to feed to hounds or lions. It only applies to human consumption.

Alagirl
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:26 PM
Becasue lions and tigers cannot live off of carrot sticks.

If my horse was no longer enjoying life, it's not a bad way to go. I understand why they don't want the owners present (when a horse is shot it looks quiet violent when they go down) But I think I still would want to, to give me piece of mind all went well.

Mtn trails
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:32 PM
My husband wanted to do this when one of his old horses was ready to cross the bridge but found out the Seattle zoo doesn't accept live horses to feed their cats. He had the vet put him down instead.

anabug
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:42 PM
I'm fine with the idea (they have to eat) but I don't think I could do it personally. The concept of such a fine, loving, serving animal being literally cut to pieces and thrown to the lions is just degrading.

But I would donate a horse to medical research, even after reading Stiff.

moonriverfarm
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:45 PM
This thread makes me want to vomit. I for one could not imagine doing this any more than I could donate my mother's body. Call me names, flame me, throw rocks at me. I'm just not made of that kind of stuff, sorry.

Pasture_Ornament
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:51 PM
Personally this wouldn't be my first choice, but it sure wouldn't be my last either. However, I would insist that I was present to make sure my horse really was shot humanely. And the 4 free tickets is pretty tacky.

apprider
Mar. 27, 2007, 12:58 PM
I just think the horse can smell or sense the predators. There isn't much lost on a horse when it comes to a horse-eater animal in the vicinity. I would not want that kind of fear and stress to be a part of his last minutes.

Just a two rat study, but behind the Great Adventure drive through safari in NJ are quite a number of trails. A girl friend and I were riding back there one day when we both heard a roar of a big cat. She and I were spooked, but the horses did not blink an eye. The animals that are visible are not predators, but my gelding decided that the giraffes were worthy of a long look, but not spook worthy.

As to the original post, I don't think I could do it. I have been lucky enough that I have only had to put down two in 30+ years of horse ownership, and I know exactly where both are buried. Most places call a service that removes the body after the horse has been euthanized. Where do they take them? A landfill?

Keep1Belle
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:05 PM
This thread makes me want to vomit. I for one could not imagine doing this any more than I could donate my mother's body. Call me names, flame me, throw rocks at me. I'm just not made of that kind of stuff, sorry.

No bashing or flaming from me. But I myself am an organ donor and I do not see anything wrong with people dontating their horses or themselves to benefit others. IMO, once we are gone we are gone. Our physical bodies cannot help us any longer... give of yourself/your animal to some cause that can be helped.

As long as the horse does not suffer, Im fine with it. I would prefer an injection to a bullet but in general I dont see anything wrong provided there is no suffering

county
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:05 PM
I think its a great option to getting rid of a horse thats no longer useable we do the same with other species of livestock why not a horse? The zoo here takes them and there shot no where near the animals that the meat is fed to. As far as shooting one its a very very fast and efficent way to kill an animal when done properly. IMO its much better to feed or render then wasting the animal by burying it. If its a pet then I bury them, if the animal is livestock I try and use it for a purpose to feed or clothe man or beast.

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:09 PM
No bashing or flaming from me. But I myself am an organ donor and I do not see anything wrong with people dontating their horses or themselves to benefit others. IMO, once we are gone we are gone. Our physical bodies cannot help us any longer... give of yourself/your animal to some cause that can be helped.

As long as the horse does not suffer, Im fine with it. I would prefer an injection to a bullet but in general I dont see anything wrong provided there is no suffering

I too am an organ donor. I've also seriously considered donating my body for research (for a condition I have).

poltroon
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:09 PM
I think it's a more dignified and fitting end than a landfill or a rendering vat. I would do it if the circumstances were right (though where I am now there are no big cat facilities nearby). Being eaten by worms and insects sounds pretty gross too.

At the Wildlife Waystation in Southern California, they accept horses. They keep them for several weeks to make sure they're clear of any medication and to evaluate them. If they feel the horse is still useful, they will instead adopt him out. I think that's very humane and sensible.

I don't personally feel that chemical euthanization is more wonderful than something mechanical like a bullet, but your mileage may vary.

catknsn
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:10 PM
I don't care what is done with my horses' bodies - or mine for that matter - after we are dead and gone. And I'm not opposed to shooting a horse in the head. But I don't support zookeeping in general, and I do think that the smells of a zoo could be scary for a horse...it will definitely be traditional euthanasia for my horses. After that, if science can benefit from the use of their bodies, I'd have no problem at all with it - just as I've signed over my own.

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:10 PM
Being eaten by worms and insects sounds pretty gross too.

Or microbes...;)

Coreene
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:10 PM
It's funny, a friend and I were just having this conversation last night. Her horse is older and she will have to face the decision much sooner than she would have hoped to.

Circle of life. I think it is a glorious way to go. But to that end, I also have registered with a company that does complete body donation; it is set up so that if there is something they can use for immediate transplant they will, and then they take the body and use it for science. Including things like knees going for practice knee replacement stuff, and bodies from just below the shoulders up going to the Air Force for research on new helmets.

I always thought a glorious end for Willem would be the San Diego Wild Animal Park. Much better than going to a rendering plant, ground up with all the other horses, cats, dogs etc, boiled and then being spun in a centrifuge to separate out the different byproducts. But, either way, circle of life.

Then again, in So Cal at a public stable, our only option is one of those two or cremation, which just isn't what I'm about.

Lildunhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:14 PM
I could definitely do this. I feel so badly for the majestic cats that are forced to live in zoos, that I feel it's the least I can do. I'd rather have my big boy's empty shell of a body being used to bring some comfort to another animal, than left to rot in the ground.
In some parts of the country, horse owners will take the horses body out to the hills and let the predators eat them. Properly done, I much prefer a shot to the head than the chemical euthanasia. The older trail horses don't have a clue what's up when they head out for the hills. It's just another trail.
Come to think of it, when it's my time, just take me on a trail ride.

Murphy's Mom
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:15 PM
My friend did something similar with her old mare. There is a tiger sanctuary in Spokane. All of the paperwork was done over the phone. She had to put Vicks in the mare's nostrils so she wouldn't smell the cats when driving in. When she pulled up they signed papers, unloaded the horse, and left. They were told the horse would be shot as soon as their taillights cleared the driveway.

Personally, I have no problem with a horse being shot instead of "the needle" as long as the person with the gun knows what they are doing. We are not allowed to bury livestock around here and the nearest crematorium (?) is in the next state (IOW, several hundred miles away). When horses die out here they are taken to the dump. I would rather have my old mare shot and fed to the tigers than lying under a bunch of garbage. That said, I don't know that the tigers will be her fate as the trip is about four hours and she doesn't haul well.

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:16 PM
Geez....how much would a cremation be for a horse? WOW....didn't even know you could do that.

I HATE the fact that the only options here is rendered/landfill. ......this was another option. But, I too think I would have to be there with the shot went off. And keeping a piece of their tail/fore lock/shoes.

DMK
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:16 PM
Well, if you are opposed to slaughter or transportation to slaughter, the auction process, remember that those places also process horse meat for zoos/wild animal parks, so our donation could save a horse or two from the hell that is transportation to slaughter.

Years and years ago when I worked at surgical facility we occasionally had to put down a horse who was not currently under medication. On those instances we had the horses shot instead of euthanized and then they were delivered to the Lion Park. That was probably the best of both worlds - the horse never had to leave the farm and the lions got fresh meat. Far better than the ones who were euthanized and sent to the rendering plant in my opinion.

But the idea of stressing my horse on his final day is not very palatable to me as well. I have an old pony with DSLD and our local vet school is doing research on DSLD. I know the responsible thing to do when his time comes would be to take him to the vet school, let them do all non-invasive tests and then euthanize him and continue with research. But this pony is a homebody. He isn't a show horse, he doesn't travel around a lot, and I can't shake the feeling that throwing him on the trailer and taking him to a strange place would make his final days very, very scary. But if I had a horse that I thought would not be stressed out by this? I'd like to think I would consider this or the lion food option.

I bet local zoos would get more takers if they had an arrangement like we had all those years ago where the horse did not have to leave the property. And yes, the shooting part is traumatic for us because we have a cultural association of gun death as a violent death, but there's a good case to be made for the idea that immediate brain death is more humane than chemical death.

Oh yea? Four tickets? I would be donating them back to the zoo for a school program or other useful event. I'm pretty sure it would be a good long while before I wanted to see their big cats again.

dawglover
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:19 PM
I could definitely do this. I feel so badly for the majestic cats that are forced to live in zoos, that I feel it's the least I can do. I'd rather have my big boy's empty shell of a body being used to bring some comfort to another animal, than left to rot in the ground.
In some parts of the country, horse owners will take the horses body out to the hills and let the predators eat them. Properly done, I much prefer a shot to the head than the chemical euthanasia. The older trail horses don't have a clue what's up when they head out for the hills. It's just another trail.
Come to think of it, when it's my time, just take me on a trail ride.


I agree with your post, especially that last line!

asb_own_me
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:25 PM
I agree with the general feelings of most replying to this thread - it makes sense in a logical way (recycle, reuse, etc) but I personally wouldn't have the fortitude to do it. Unfortunately, my DH and I do not yet own our own land where we could bury my once-in-a-lifetime mare. I hope that we will when the time comes, but until then I will be worrying about what to do.

asb_own_me
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:32 PM
Geez....how much would a cremation be for a horse? WOW....didn't even know you could do that.

I HATE the fact that the only options here is rendered/landfill. ......this was another option. But, I too think I would have to be there with the shot went off. And keeping a piece of their tail/fore lock/shoes.

Here's a link to a place about 20 minutes from my home (and actually about 5 minutes from the barn where my mare is): http://www.lovingrest.com/
They have a crematorium on-site and offer burial as well. (I have no affiliations with them - just posting the link so maybe it can be helpful to someone here)

Appassionato
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:32 PM
It's funny, a friend and I were just having this conversation last night. Her horse is older and she will have to face the decision much sooner than she would have hoped to.

Circle of life. I think it is a glorious way to go. But to that end, I also have registered with a company that does complete body donation; it is set up so that if there is something they can use for immediate transplant they will, and then they take the body and use it for science. Including things like knees going for practice knee replacement stuff, and bodies from just below the shoulders up going to the Air Force for research on new helmets.

I always thought a glorious end for Willem would be the San Diego Wild Animal Park. Much better than going to a rendering plant, ground up with all the other horses, cats, dogs etc, boiled and then being spun in a centrifuge to separate out the different byproducts. But, either way, circle of life.

Then again, in So Cal at a public stable, our only option is one of those two or cremation, which just isn't what I'm about.

Is this the one with the lymphatic sarcoma (sp?)? Jingling for you all...

chemteach
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:33 PM
Personally this wouldn't be my first choice, but it sure wouldn't be my last either. However, I would insist that I was present to make sure my horse really was shot humanely. And the 4 free tickets is pretty tacky.

Agreed.

mintyfresh
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:37 PM
The only part that bothers me is not being able to be there at the end. If there was a zoo that would allow me to stay, then yes, I would consider this a viable option.

My "old" guy is only 19 but has heaves, it's under control quite well for now, but I also realise that just having it is going to shorten his life span. If there was a way towards the end where he could go off his meds for awhile and then be donated and I was there till the end, then I would do it.

It's all pretty unlikely though since if the heaves is bad enough to where he has to be put down, I doubt that he would be able to go off his medication for the length of time needed.

Still, it's something that I will keep in the back of my mind.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:38 PM
I just couldn't leave him there. Period.

I agree with recycling, I agree with humane euthanasia...but I need to know he would go as peacefully and painlessly as possible and not in the care of strangers.

La Gringa
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:39 PM
I have never heard of this before, but it makes sense. Once the horse is dead, it's dead. It's just a body. I don't think I would have a problem with it.

SuperSTB
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:39 PM
I'm fine with it- as long as they (a qualified person that is) immediately shot the horse.

I'll have to look into the San Diego Wildlife Park. I feel like such the hypocrit because I really have NOT set out a solid plan for what to do with my horses if the time should arise except go by whatever the local vet advises... which is usually a very costly option.

Equilibrium
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:48 PM
We aren't allowed to bury our horses here, but when it's time for them to go they will go here on our property, euthunaisa. Then the hunt comes and picks up the horse for the hounds. As long as they have a peaceful humane ending, not worried where the body goes.

Terri

Mtn trails
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:49 PM
In some parts of the country, horse owners will take the horses body out to the hills and let the predators eat them. Properly done, I much prefer a shot to the head than the chemical euthanasia. The older trail horses don't have a clue what's up when they head out for the hills. It's just another trail.
Come to think of it, when it's my time, just take me on a trail ride.

We're planning on doing this when our current horses are ready to go. We often pony a naked horse out on trails just for the exercise and they won't think anything is different. Sad, yes, but at least the body is benefitting some thing.

Your last statement is interesting because I had a friend die of a massive heart attack just as he and some buddies had returned from a pack trip and were in the truck about to head home. Talk about dying doing something you loved. I hope I go that way.

Murphy's Mom
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:51 PM
Geez....how much would a cremation be for a horse? WOW....didn't even know you could do that.
There is a place in Oregon that advertises in a PNW magazine. Prices start around $800. They have a horse "hearse" that can pick up your decease horse, but the mileage is rather expensive. It would cost me a few thousand for my mare. I believe you can haul the horse there and have it put down but, like with the tiger sanctuary, it's a very long trip (probably 6 hours) and the old girl doesn't travel well.

Curb Appeal
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:53 PM
If my guy were physically capable of taking a trailer ride to a zoo, I would probably consider donating.

JenJ
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:57 PM
My choice was euthanizia at the barn, then transport to a pet cemetary for burial - cost the equivalent of 6 months board.


As far as rendering goes:


If I could euthenize my horse instead of shooting him, then yes. Unfortunately, they can't feed meat from a euthenized animal. :( The whole shooting thing just seems so barbaric. (ick!)

the euthanized animals are used for cat and dog food - sure they "say" they do not use the heart, but the blood is full of euthanizing barbituates too.

SarhasMom
Mar. 27, 2007, 01:59 PM
And yes, the shooting part is traumatic for us because we have a cultural association of gun death as a violent death, but there's a good case to be made for the idea that immediate brain death is more humane than chemical death.

You are correct, it is more the idea of shooting that seems more violent than the actual death itself. In almost 30 years of being around horses, I have seen two horses shot to death after breaking their legs (years ago). I have also seen 4 euthanasias by barbituate overdose. The latter was more violent each time in all except for one case.

There is actually a local vet near me that will give her patients the option of euthanasia or shooting and will do it herself as well. Other vets in the area will also let you know about the option as well. We only have one man that will come out and haul the 'body' away as we are not allowed to bury due to being too close to the water table. However, he charges more than the actual euthanasia itself.

While every case isn't the same, having different options when it comes time to make a decision is nice to know.

Coreene
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:02 PM
I think death is such a personal decision, and have always felt that whatever that person decides is the best decision for them. My great uncle was dying of some intestinal cancer, I can't remember which one, and because he lives in Holland he was able to have The Shot. Much, much better than having to suffer through an additional fortnight or so, unable to sit up, unable to lie down, in extreme pain.

Some people berate themselves for not being able to be there when the horse gets The Shot. Again, nothing wrong with that: whatever is best for you is the best way to do it.

My only problem with the whole putting down of the horse is people who wait far, far, far too long to do it. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

colleent
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:03 PM
IF i could have the horse SHOT before removing him from his home, so he is not afraid, then i don't care what happens to the body, if the zoo can use it, so be it. BUT i would NEVER frighten my horse by trailering him to a strange plce, with scary predator smells, and let him be afraid while i drive away. i think that is pretty cold hearted to do to a good friend, and trust me, my horses are some of the best friends i have ever had.

can't we just feed pedophiles to the lions?

kellyb
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:23 PM
Yes Dobbin old boy, you've been a wonderful steed. Carted my butt around 3'6" courses, won me lots of ribbons, was always there for me when I needed you. Well, off you go now, to the lions!! Be a good boy now!


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

CelticReinRescue
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:26 PM
Personally, I could not do it but like others have said, I wouldn't fault anyone if they did. I think it is better than some of the other things that happen to horses at the end of thier lives.

That being said, I have witnessed one horse being put down by a bullet - the horse was severely injured and the AC officer ended it right then and there. It was fast, as in instant....the gun going off sent a shutter through me, but it was not nearly as bad or gory as I thought it would be. I was more relived to see the horse put out of its very obvious misery than anything.

It may not be the most aesthetically pleasing way to end a horse's suffering, but after seeing it done correctly and how fast it was over with, I definitely would not fault anyone for using this method......providing they or the person doing it knew how to carry it out properly.

dawglover
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:26 PM
can't we just feed pedophiles to the lions?


Now There's a good idea!

chawley
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:28 PM
The only part that bothers me is not being able to be there at the end.

Me too. Although, I know that death by bullet is just as humane as by injection, it's the association with bullets (someone else mentioned this) that we have as people that makes it difficult.

I've had my horse since he was born. Although, I have no problem with what is suggested here, I think it's noble, I need to be there with him when that time comes. I was one of the first people that he ever saw when he arrived in this world, and I hope to be the last one he sees when he leaves.

The cost of cremating a horse near our area is, if I recall correctly, is around $600 and up. I know that is a lot of money, but to me it's worth it. (I only have one horse though, which makes a difference to others that have multiple animals to consider.)

Sannois
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:29 PM
But what I plan to do with my old guy if he becomes too lame for even trail riding is to Donate him to our Verterinary school for the research heard. I know several people that have done that with their horses, its a usueful humane end. What they do is use them as a teaching tool, many are kept alive for a long time, ones with strange lamenesses etc. They also use some for Blood donors. And when they do finally put them down its usually on the table and students use them for learning surgery and anatomy. I personally want to do the same with myself. Its a good cause and better than rotting in the ground taking up space in a cemetary. :yes:

SidesaddleRider
Mar. 27, 2007, 02:53 PM
We aren't allowed to bury our horses here, but when it's time for them to go they will go here on our property, euthunaisa. Then the hunt comes and picks up the horse for the hounds. As long as they have a peaceful humane ending, not worried where the body goes.

Hunts around here will not accept euthanized horses, as the chemicals that are in the body are quite unhealthy (perhaps deadly) to the hounds. It has to be a natural death or by gunshot. Are you sure you hunt will take your horses?

RoseBud143
Mar. 27, 2007, 03:13 PM
Me too. Although, I know that death by bullet is just as humane as by injection, it's the association with bullets (someone else mentioned this) that we have as people that makes it difficult.)

I think what makes it hard for me, I always imagine them being scared by the loud noise right before death, i think if they invested in a silencer more people might.. consider it, though it would be really hard..

My guy, he died on the table. Afterwards i had him cremated, The price to haul and bury him was the same as getting him cremated. And im glad I did i always have him with me, and has tacky as it sounds i can still come in and give him a hug when im having a really bad day. I am also planning at making a necklace.. when i when the lotto, the new diamonds they make out of ashes, Or in the meantime using a pic of his head to make a wax mold to make a gold pendant of him, with his ashes in the back, hell always be with me.A freind of mine is a jewler and has done this a few time with pets and husbands..

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 27, 2007, 03:15 PM
Actually, now I think about it, Ted would probably say, "Sure. We can go together. What's sauce for the goose, after all...so stay off your asthma meds before they do you in. I think the chondroitin might be okay, because you'll have to walk to where you're going, just like me."

Sonesta
Mar. 27, 2007, 03:26 PM
I think what makes it hard for me, I always imagine them being scared by the loud noise right before death, i think if they invested in a silencer more people might.. consider it, though it would be really hard..

I PROMISE YOU that the horse never hears the shot that kills them. No one does. The bullet moves faster than the speed of sound. So don't let that thought disturb you.

As for me, I have no problem with the idea of shooting a horse and do believe that a well placed bullet is MUCH better than the pain of chemical injection that causes a fatal heart attack.

As for the body. It's only a shell. The horse you loved is gone elsewhere. If it can be used, then that's a good thing.

Coreene
Mar. 27, 2007, 03:42 PM
Many of us do not have the option of using a gun, it is needle only.

OakesBrae
Mar. 27, 2007, 03:51 PM
I think this, or to the hounds or other predators, is the best possible option for my equine friends. I'd love for it to be my option too, but *shrug* they won't let us do that with people. Oh well. Maybe someday we'll stop cluttering up this planet with dead things that nature has the sense to recycle.

philosoraptor
Mar. 27, 2007, 04:13 PM
Let me start off by saying we're assuming this is a horse that truly needs to be euthanized, not a healthy horse whose owner just doesn't want him anymore, correct?

I respect the arguement it might be scary for the horse, but we brought some of our horses to the Horse World Arena held two weekends ago. It was held in conjunction with the Greater PA Pet Expo and among dogs and other strange animals, there was a tiger in the building. The horses were at some times within view of the big cat and must've been able to smell him throughout the day. They did wonderfully.

I don't agree the horse can hear the gunfire. The bullet travels too fast; you'd never have time to hear it and process the sound.

I would make sure the zoo is doing this very professionally, not just any ole yee-haw with a gun. It's ok to ask how they do it, what kind of gun, and what experience the shooter has doing this with an animal like a horse. And part of the professionalism would be to hopefully shoot the animal far away from the tiger enclosure. Zoos generally have many acres, and I'd like to think they have more sense than to do it right in the carnovore area.

You've got to think: death by gunshot sounds violent, but if done right it's instant. No worrying about mixing the right amount of drugs (eg vet euth) which can be a problem with some horses.

Whether it's ok to use the meat for zoo animals is really a personal decision. You can have it hauled away to be rendered, but how is that much different? Not everyone is able to bury the horse, so we can't assume that's always an option.

The bright side is that they didn't have to kill a healthy horse or cow to meet those carnivore's nutritional needs... so in a way by choosing this, you're helping to save a life.

Be aware not all zoos will do this. Some just buy USDA meats and won't mess with butchering their own.

Given the choice I wish more people could do this rather than have to put the horse through the whole unpleasant commercial slaughter system. At least it's done locally, he's not left standing around to suffer in some feedlot, and when he is killed, it's humane.

archieflies
Mar. 27, 2007, 05:37 PM
Does anyone know if there's a list somewhere of places that will accept horses? Obviously a zoo isn't going to just put on their website in the cats section, "Hey, don't forget the tigers need food- send us your old horses!" Might traumatize the kids, you know. But, just to be sure, I checked a few websites. No such luck. Or do you just have to call until you find one?

lilblackhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 05:42 PM
we have a local large cat rescue/breeder or something like that....my farrier sent his old horse there. He told me that it really was a decent thing, and he felt good about it. Same procedure, horse is shot when he gets off the trailer, as cats want fresh meat.

I honestly don't know if I could do it--the gun thing doesn't bother me, I think it's better than chemicals quite frankly. I must admit that *I* think he'd be afraid of the smells or whatever, but I think that's me, and it might just be my fears and not my horse's.

The reality is that meat is coming from somewhere, and like Sonesta said, the body is a shell once they are dead----might as well put them to some use. It's a lot of meat to waste.

archieflies
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:08 PM
Now this is based on nothing but my own sentiments, but I'd like to think that when a horse know's he's ready to die, they wouldn't be afraid of the smell of a predator, but maybe a bit relieved by it. I mean, animals know about the circle of life, and they probably know that being taken down by a predator is easier than suffereing until they die naturally. Now I don't really think a horse would know that euthanasia is another option, I think they just know they're going to have to die and their only instinctive choices are death by predator or a natural death. So maybe they wouldn't be so afraid to smell a lion in the distance. Or maybe I'm imagining horses as a little too heroic...

Reynard Ridge
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
Interesting topic and worthy of discussion. I had no idea this was an option. I am very lucky in that we have land, a backhoe and Mr. RR is a good shot. That would be my preference. But I with Coreene on this one - circle of life. Not wasting would be more in line with my psyche.

Although, I am also with the people who do not wish to ship off an infirm animal that I am strongly attached to. I suspect in my case that the backhoe and a swift gunshot to the head would win out over having the deceased horse be lion food in the end.

Guin
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:17 PM
This is a REALLY interesting thread. I am horseless at the moment, but my previous horse died of cancer and then had to be hauled away because the ground was frozen and we couldn't bury her. I would say that if someone would come to the horse and shoot it, in familiar surroundings, and then take it away for tiger food, that would be okay with me. I would have a hard time driving my friend to the zoo and leaving her there, though. I have thought a lot about the end for my dog, who is getting older, and I really want to find a vet who will come to my house so I don't have to take my dog to the scary vet's office at the end.

Blugal
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:20 PM
I once visited a farm that kept big cats and other "zoo animals" trained to work in commercials & movies. They also had a herd of horses there. One of the lions' pens was actually an enclosure within the big horse area (probably 3 or 4 acres), and another cat was adjacent to their area.

None of the horses seemed to mind in the least - they could choose to stay away from those pens. The difference is that these horses lived here, so presumably if they did have a problem initially, I wouldn't have seen that (I just dropped in one day).

shireluver
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:21 PM
Wildlife Safari in Winston, Oregon will take donations of horses and cattle to feed the big cats. You have to call them first and make an appointment.

If I remember right, the horse can not have had any vaccinations or medications in the 30 days before you deliver them.

Yes, I have taken 2 horses there, they were not mine, I was doing it as a favor for the owner.

Alagirl
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:34 PM
Just as a side note: I do believe silencers for guns are illegal.

skatepixie
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:35 PM
Question: (and maybe a stupid one)

Do the big cats HAVE to eat horse? Could they eat cattle byproducts or something else?

class
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:48 PM
of course they don't have to eat horse! why would they? they don't eat horses exclusively in the wild.

i think it is not a bad idea but i am really surprised that zoos can accept old horses that may have hematomas or who knows what kind of supplements and wormers and stuff they have built up in their systems over the years. what if the horse has some kind of neurological condition? isn't there some risk to the tigers? do the zoos vet the horse before they accept it?

Bluey
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:52 PM
When you shoot a horse or cow that are injured or terminal, you see them drop before or as you hear the sound of the shot, it is that fast, they collapse in a heap.
With a bullet, they drop immediately, as their legs fail, faster than by injection.

With an injection, you have to watch and stand back, in case they rear first and they tend to fall in slow motion and stiffly, sometimes staggering a little first, taking a little bit longer to go down.

An injection is easier for the people, because a shot is a big jolt to the ears and our brain, when we are anxious about the situation anyway.

We have a bone yard, that we used for cattle for many years and started using for the ocassional horse when we learned that we should not bury carcasses around haphazardly, because they can contaminate the soil for many years.
In the bone yard, predators clean a carcass in a few days.

I would rather we use that carcass that give the wildlife, here coyotes crows and buzzards, a free meal.
Better use it for whatever humans need, be it slaughterhouse, if we can make that process better, for zoos , hunt dogs, or rendering plants, except that those don't need quite that much, so are not always accepting.

As for cremating and keeping the ashes, you know how many pounds of ashes you would get back from a horse?
You get a fair amount from a person, now multiply that by 10.
Not exactly a little urn over the fireplace.:eek:

Where'sMyWhite
Mar. 27, 2007, 06:55 PM
Just as a side note: I do believe silencers for guns are illegal.

Alagirl, I don't believe illegal. I believe you need a separate tax stamp from ATF for possession of one.

greysandbays
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:01 PM
The concern with the horse being "scared" by the smell of the predators represents a major misunderstanding of the predator/prey relationship.

The "smell" of the predators is nothing more than any other unfamiliar smell.
The "fear" you think they will experience on account of the cats will be no different than what they experience on account of the camels, or the moose, or the water buffalo, or the armadillos, or any other animal your horse is not familiar with.

Predators in the wild are very honest about whether they are "on the hunt" or just going from point A to point B. Horses in the wild cannot afford to waste enerby on being ditzy twits who panic and flee everytime they encounter evidence of a predator. By instinct, horses (and other prey animals) recognize whether a predator is not actively hunting or not.

asb_own_me
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:13 PM
As for cremating and keeping the ashes, you know how many pounds of ashes you would get back from a horse?
You get a fair amount from a person, now multiply that by 10.
Not exactly a little urn over the fireplace.:eek:

Not to be crass, but the urn we got back from my dad's ashes was heavy. I cannot imagine a horse's remains. You wouldn't be able to pick up the urn on your own.

I have heard (don't remember where) that it is/was common practice to only cremate the head/neck of the horse - is this true?

Coreene
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:23 PM
who knows what kind of supplements and wormers and stuff they have built up in their systems over the yearsImagine what the French and Belgians are eating when they consume Cheval Americain. ;)

asb_own_me
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:47 PM
Yum.....

MistyBlue
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:56 PM
The ashes for a 1500 lb horse is anywhere between 110-120 lbs if you go for whole body cremation and want the entire remains. It's a lot of ashes. :eek:
Usually for equine cremations they cremate either parts or entire body at request of owner and then will offer over a certain amount of ashes back, usually not more than 10 lbs so that it fits in a large urn.
My last dog I had cremated turned out to be 9 lbs of ashes, pretty heavy for a dog.
Not all zoos will take horsemeat very often. For tigers, most of which are on either endangered or close to it they're extremely picky about what the animals eat. Also for cheetahs and I think snow leopards.

summerhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 07:56 PM
I would not do this to my horse but it is a realistic solution to someone who honestly can't afford the removal and/or burial (and in some price gouging places the actual injection).

Done properly both injection or gunshot are quick and humane and the horse does not know what is going on (even if they spasm they are unconscious). (Of course the key words are done correctly!!) A horse done with injection should be sedated if it is upset or is standing. A horse that is already down and relaxed does not necessarily need any sedation. I've seen LOTS of those and they just go to sleep. But certainly it can't hurt if the owner is uncomfortable without sedation. (um for the horse!)

No dropping, no spasms (although any dying thing can and will spasm, that is involuntary and often after the heart and brain have already stopped).

So either is OK for me unlike a captive bolt which may nor may not hit the right spot and causes blinding pain for a noticeable amount of time (to the horse) before it loses consciousness. (yes they did a study!) And that doesn't count all the auction/hauling issues, that would just be if you took the horse to the plant as a walk in. And just being in the plant is a not very nice experience for a horse. And then there is their poor accuracy rate.

Being at a zoo would certainly be full of new smells but horses don't really have any concept of that's a lion smell that might eat me unless they have personal experience, say a range horse where there were cougars. I would think they would not even HAVE horses near the prey animals anyway, they would have to have a processing place because they don't toss them a leg, they cut them up like any butchered animal and most good zoos don't feed the meat eaters meat during public hours. Zoo diets are pretty controlled. And those areas tend to be a bit separate from the actual animal areas except maybe the vet hospital and quarantine areas. Horsemeat is actually NOT a good food for big cats, too low in fat but for fat cats i guess it would be a good low fat, low carb dinner that they wouldn't have to cut down on the actual amount fed.

My problem would not being allowed to be there. I'd really want to know that the person IS a crack shot so I 'd want to see other horses done first to be sure they actually know how to do it right. And are not using a captive bolt. So I guess it would depend on how trustworthy the people there were as to who would do the killing and how.

I would also prefer they decide when they need the horse and come do it at the farm and then haul the body to the zoo for processing. it would be better for the horse not to have to leave home esp. if it is bad enough to need putting down.

My feeling about the carcass is dead is dead. While of course I prefer MY animal be buried out back I realize not everyone is able to do this and cremation is EXPENSIVE and not even available in all areas. And some people just don't have those feelings over where the body ends up. So the other choice for a euthanized animal is the rendering plant. I don't see much difference in donating dead body parts to science or farrier schools and being melted into a mass of goo except by donating others may learn from that horse's problems or death and it may help others in the future.

Euthanized animals (by injection) cannot be fed to anything period. they must be rendered. the meat is poisonous.

Many zoos do not feed US horsemeat (unless they have their own source of clean horses) because the meat is not safe for many animals. Too many contaminants of various drugs. They used to feed them to greyhounds too but ended up with a lot of dead dogs in some places so the practice now is to use dog food!

(Hopefully not from MENU FOODS though!)

I know some hunt packs still use horsemeat but I would certainly not risk my hounds by feeding them horsemeat with who knows what in it. Dog food is just not THAT expensive and neither is meat scraps from other butchered animals (that have to follow regulations).

And of course would never do a useful horse, only one that NEEDED putting down or a crippled one that was truly out of other options. Not everyone can afford a pasture ornament and finding a good home for one is really really difficult.

asb_own_me
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:03 PM
The ashes for a 1500 lb horse is anywhere between 110-120 lbs if you go for whole body cremation and want the entire remains. It's a lot of ashes. :eek:


Wow, I would have guessed much heavier. Learn something new (not necessarily pleasant, but new) every day.

Sorry about your dog.....I will definitely go that route with my dogs when the time comes.

RoseBud143
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:07 PM
When you shoot a horse or cow that are injured or terminal, you see them drop before or as you hear the sound of the shot, it is that fast, they collapse in a heap.
With a bullet, they drop immediately, as their legs fail, faster than by injection.
OK so yes maybe having be a quiet death is for my sake but still....



As for cremating and keeping the ashes, you know how many pounds of ashes you would get back from a horse?
You get a fair amount from a person, now multiply that by 10.
Not exactly a little urn over the fireplace.:eek:

AS for this NOT true, i had my horse cremated, and i was shocked at how Small it actually was, I got the ashes back, or actually my boyfriend went and got them, and he recieved them in a, say, 3in X 4 in X 5 in box, and right now for my "urn" hes in a small wooden jewlery boy with his pic if you open it, and that box is maybe an 1.5 in hieght, 4in in depth and maybe 5.5 long. So needless to say it is NOT very big. of and maybe wieghs 5 or 6 pounds including the box

EDIT TO ADD.. didnt read the rest of the posts....and i didnt know that, um if thats the case i def. didnt get the whole horse back.. but they never said anything regarding only partial remains....

Coup De Des
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:13 PM
Rose Bud.. I'm not trying to upset you, but you definately didn't get "all" of your horse back.

summerhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:14 PM
Yeah my brother's urn was bigger than that and he weighed maybe 160?

RoseBud143
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:16 PM
Rose Bud.. I'm not trying to upset you, but you definately didn't get "all" of your horse back.

thats why i edited it ;)

lilblackhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:22 PM
rosebug, you didn't get all of Sparky there.....just finished the book "grave matters" which discusses the whole burial and cremation process for people, and a body (human) makes a small shoe box---no way in hell your horse got to be that small. And from what I learned, big pieces of bone don't burn--they chop them up in little grinders because it oogs out people to see "ashes" which actually resemble "something" (read your family member).

On a different note, I will relate this story which is appropriate and funny as hell---when we were discussing this big cat thing at the barn, my friend (who grew up in the Willamette Valley) was talking about Wildlife Safari. She was saying how she knew they took horses for big cat food. However, she didn't get the picture that they shoot the horse dead and then fed them.

Her (skewed) vision? They let the horse loose and let the cats get the horse. I'm sorry, some of you aren't going to think it's funny, but we laughed and laughed as she told us this. The thought of my little limpy black horse running on his Barbaro leg for all he was worth with a lion on his tail---sick, but kind of funny in a twisted way.

Coup De Des
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:38 PM
More sick than funny..

Rosebud, I'm glad you didn't take offence.

onwego
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:42 PM
I just don't think I could do it. It makes sense and all, but my horse is kind of like my child. It actually makes me sick to my stomach just to think about it. Course I don't want to picture him dying anyways.:cry:

Lauren!
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:44 PM
In my area the local livestock removal service takes animals to the landfill. It's not legal to bury them on your property... people do, but I wouldn't... what if I moved? I wouldn't want 'ol Trigger buried on someone else's land (without them knowing it!)

I don't think I'd go the Zoo route personally, because I wouldn't want my horses to have to travel if they were in a situation that required euthanasia in the first place. If they could be shot at home, that would be a different story. If it were a horse who I did not believe would be at all bothered by travel or an unfamiliar enviroment, I might consider it for him to.

I think feeding old foxhunters to the hounds is a honorable and fitting end if that is available in your area (to my knowledge, it's not offered here). If there was an experienced person available to shoot a horse, I might choose that over chemical euthanasia, but I don't know any vets who will do it (or any reason they would, since landfill or creamation are the popular & available options). The only horse of my own I've ever had to euthanize was extremely sick, and already at the vet hospital. He was chemically euthanized, and picked up by the truck (for landfill or rendering... I didn't ask. It was in another part of the state, so it could have been either). Creamation would have been nice, but not an option after the vet bills created in his last days (it's about $1500 here). Not sure what I would have done with the creamains, but it's OK... I have a lovely framed photo of him over my mantle, and lots of lovely memories of our time together :)

OakesBrae
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:48 PM
Imagine what the French and Belgians are eating when they consume Cheval Americain

Mmmmmm, but I'll bet they don't have any worms :)

lilblackhorse
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:58 PM
why would rosebud take offense? She had already realized that she had only gotten a portion (I didn't see those posts, and hers before I posted). I had no idea how the process worked---it's not offensive, just reality really. It's life..... and death. Something we all are going to have to deal with at some point, for ourselves and our pets. Not talking about the details is just silly, and perpetuates the whole mystique around death and what happens afterwards. jmho.

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 27, 2007, 08:58 PM
IF i could have the horse SHOT before removing him from his home, so he is not afraid, then i don't care what happens to the body, if the zoo can use it, so be it. BUT i would NEVER frighten my horse by trailering him to a strange plce, with scary predator smells, and let him be afraid while i drive away. i think that is pretty cold hearted to do to a good friend, and trust me, my horses are some of the best friends i have ever had.

can't we just feed pedophiles to the lions?

LOL!!! Send all the murders, death row--ect. save our tax dollars and feed the animals!!

I'm EBO
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:00 PM
Any Europeans or Asians of the horse-eating variety on here reading that zoos won't feed our domestic horses to endangered species? :lol:

It's always amused me that they worry about our cattle that are pumped full of anti-biotics and hormones, but think horse meat is so healthy!

I would not like to send my horses to a zoo, although a bullet is supposedly more humane than chemicals as a means of euthanasia. OTOH, if my horse needed euthanasia, I'd certainly donate the carcass to a zoo rather than put it through the horrors of transport and slaughter.

We've been able to bury horses here. Now there's a husband and wife team available for euthanasia and burial--the woman is a small animal vet (but knows how to euthanize a horse), and her husband has a back hoe service.

Sue from Auckland
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:10 PM
I believe there may be 1 or 2 pet crematoria in NZ, but I'm reasonably sure they couldn't handle something the size of a horse (unless it was cut up anyway). There is a lion park about 100ks from here which I believe takes horses to feed to the animals. I know our local hunts also will take and shoot horses. Where I am, those plus euthanasia and going to the landfill are your only choices. I could handle having my horse shot, but not so sure I could cope with the idea of her then being cut up and fed to animals (silly, really, it shouldn't matter when it's just the shell). I would also want to be there while she was put down (whatever the method used). I brought her into this world and I feel an obligation to be there if I am sending her out of it.

R D Lite
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:23 PM
My friend did something similar with her old mare. There is a tiger sanctuary in Spokane. All of the paperwork was done over the phone. She had to put Vicks in the mare's nostrils so she wouldn't smell the cats when driving in. When she pulled up they signed papers, unloaded the horse, and left. They were told the horse would be shot as soon as their taillights cleared the driveway.

The barn I learned to ride at is about half a mile away from Cat Tails (definitely the only large cat facility in Spokane I know of!) The BO used to take many of her horses there. They knew her well, and she usually stayed with the horse while it was shot. The Vicks goes a long way to keeping the horses calm.

BarbB
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:23 PM
IF i could have the horse SHOT before removing him from his home, so he is not afraid, then i don't care what happens to the body, if the zoo can use it, so be it. BUT i would NEVER frighten my horse by trailering him to a strange plce, with scary predator smells, and let him be afraid while i drive away. i think that is pretty cold hearted to do to a good friend, and trust me, my horses are some of the best friends i have ever had.


this is along the lines of what I was thinking. I think shooting (done correctly) is more humane that a drug death and I don't have any problem with the lions benefiting.....but they would have to come and get his dead body.....I'm not hauling him to a zoo and leaving him with strangers to die.

Nicker
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:27 PM
I don't have a problem with the whole idea, but with my small pony it wouldn't be an option. She will not get on a trailer with out a fight and I don't want her last moments with me being traumatic. If I had a horse who was used to going on road trips and wasn't in any serious pain I'd consider it. But I would want to be there, it is a fear of mine that Star will have to be euthanized while I'm on vaca, or unreachable. I would feel horrible not being there for her last moments, but wouldn't want her to be kept in pain waiting for me.

OTOH, what about the drugs, wormer, etc? Do they ask that you not feed your horse any meds for x number of days? That would be cruel to do to a horse in pain.

ETA- I also would prefer death by gunshot for my horses, quicker and way less traumatic when done properly.

Platinum Equestrian
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
I can't imagine having someone from a zoo pick up my horse, take it somewhere else, and shoot it... I know someone who let an older backyard horse go this way - makes me sick to my stomach - sending him to die with strangers... :no:

I don't know much about gun shot vs drugs... but personally, I would choose drugs.

R D Lite
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
When I had to put my horse down, I had to have the vet come and haul him to the clinic because the ground was too frozen even for the backhoe and the renderers won't pick up so far out of town. I worried about stressing him, but there wasn't much choice, and he ended up being fine. I stayed with him the whole time, and he just looked to me like, "Dunno why we're here, but that's all right. You've got my favorite treats, and you don't seem worried." The renderers only accept carcasses on Fridays, and he was put down on a Friday, so I assume his body went there, but if it didn't it went to the landfill. It doesn't bother me that I wasn't able to bury his body; it was very obvious as soon as he died that what made him him was gone, and whether his body was rendered or composted or decomposing in the ground didn't make much difference to me.

I volunteer at a vet clinic, and the hardest euthanasias for the horse seem to be the ones when the owners either leave the horse to be put down in their absence or when the owner is there but totally hysterical. In both cases, the horses tend to seem nervous (staff is always kind and compassionate, but horses don't like it when someone they don't know who smells like a hospital leads them out behind the barn). I will always be with my horses until the end. I respect that not everyone can do that, but it's nice if the horse has someone he knows with him at the end.

CJ4ME
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:44 PM
It would be very hard for me to be there is my horse was euthanized or shot. 3 years ago I held my 14 year old golden retriever when she was euthanized. It was very fast, quiet and peaceful, but I am haunted by it.

I am tearing up now, thinking about it. I hated the feeling I was playing God, I hated that she innocently didn't know what was happening, I hated that she was gone...it was terrible. I can still see it in my mind.

I said I would never be there if it happened again (my husband felt better being there and will take our pets if that ever needs to happen). I know I am a coward but I still can't think about that moment without wanting to cry and throw up.

chai
Mar. 27, 2007, 09:47 PM
I have been through the euthanasia process quite a few times, as Mr. chai and I have taken in a lot of older, unwanted horses that were pretty much in their twilight years. We've been fortunate enough to be able to take care of the last moments peacefully at home, with the help of compassionate veterinarians. To those who think a chemical death (ie buthanasia) is a horrible thing, I can tell you from numerous experiences, if it's done right and the horse is tranqued well, it's quick and the horse does not struggle. Of all the options, imho, this is the best way to handle such a terribly sad decision we all have to make at one time or another. However, when I was young and had to euthanize my old gelding, I was boarding in a barn where they would not allow me to bury my horse on their property. My vet helped me find a farmer who would come with his stock trailer and we euthanized my gelding in the trailer right at the boarding barn. I paid the farmer $100 and he hauled my horse to his farm for burial. It wasn't the perfect solution, but at least my old guy went surrounded by people he knew and not far from his buddies. I also believe that when the spirit is released, where the body winds up is not all that important. It's more important that the horse not suffer or feel fear at the end.
Not everyone has the option to take care of their horse's last day like that, though. So while I would not want to truck my horse to a strange place for euthanasia...even the zoo or the hunt kennel would be ok as long as the horse was kept far enough away that they couldn't smell death or hear/smell predators.
I wouldn't knock anyone for doing it if their only alternative was dumping their horse at auction/slaughter. The suffering of the packed trailer ride, injuries, fear and horrific end in full view of other horses being killed is just too awful for any horse to endure.

Nski32
Mar. 27, 2007, 10:26 PM
who would ever want to "donate" their beloved friend as lion food? beats me. i would rather be at my horses side when he dies, rather then have him killed.

GatoGordo
Mar. 27, 2007, 10:28 PM
As for me, I have no problem with the idea of shooting a horse and do believe that a well placed bullet is MUCH better than the pain of chemical injection that causes a fatal heart attack.

Just to clear up a misconception, the drug that is in euthanasia solution is a general anesthetic, usually pentobarbital or something similar. It doesn't produce a fatal heart attack so much as anesthetize them so much that the brain stops working.

What I find ironic is that we use this technique for our animals, but when it comes to do a lethal injection on a person, at least some states use a smaller dose of anesthesia, then a paralytic agent, +/- potassium (stops the heart). Then, you get people voicing concerns about the convicted waking up before they are dead and being paralyzed but conscious for a few minutes (before asphyxiating). Why do you have to use anything else besides anesthetics? I'm not making any commentary on the death penalty, just pointing out an irony in the way we euthanize pets vs. people.

stuge
Mar. 27, 2007, 10:42 PM
Imagine what the French and Belgians are eating when they consume Cheval Americain. ;)

Umm, guys, do ya'll really not have any idea of the crap they put in our beef, pork, chickens, etc. that are produced specifically for HUMANS to eat??? I would hardly be concerned about lions and tigers eating horse meat unless that horse was part of some big radioactive experiment! Beef cows (at least heare in the US) are dewormed about as much as horses! We certainly don't want to be eating beef riddled with worms! And that doesn't even begin to cover the antibiotics, hormones, and don't forget the other crap they often put in the meat AFTER the cow is slaughtered (dyes, preservatives, etc.).

Bluey
Mar. 27, 2007, 10:54 PM
Umm, guys, do ya'll really not have any idea of the crap they put in our beef, pork, chickens, etc. that are produced specifically for HUMANS to eat??? I would hardly be concerned about lions and tigers eating horse meat unless that horse was part of some big radioactive experiment! Beef cows (at least heare in the US) are dewormed about as much as horses! We certainly don't want to be eating beef riddled with worms! And that doesn't even begin to cover the antibiotics, hormones, and don't forget the other crap they often put in the meat AFTER the cow is slaughtered (dyes, preservatives, etc.).

Boy, do you bring up a potpourri of issues there, mostly taken out of context.

Cattle are tested for any residues and the very few that test positive of millions are mostly dairy cows and the dairy is shut down and fined big time.
There are more residues, even illegal ones in European beef than in any here.

Some of those other substances you talk about, that may be added later, are to keep the meats fresh and are added to most processed foods, not only to beef, from cereals to vegetables to most any other out there.

That is waht keeps food fresh while it is produced, packaged, transported, sits in the shelves until you buy it and then in your kitchen until you consume it.

Without much of that, we would not have the food on demand we do today and would not be feeding as many people as we do.

Ask people where there is plenty of food, but no infrastructure to process and transport food without spoiling and people starve because so much food turns bad before it gets to the people that need it.

Lets keep working to make our food the best it can be, but also be glad for what we have done to have what we have today.

We have in the USA one of the most aboundant, varied and clean produce, like few in this world ever had and you think it is not good enough?

IfWishesWereHorses
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:19 PM
In New Zealand..we have a few options...

Lethal injection, or shot are the two most common, as well as slaughter of course.

It is very common to have the horses sent to the hounds. Our huntsmen are paid a salary to cover their keep, plus they have to feed their hounds out of it...and horsemeat is very cheap to get, plus a lot of people see the whole circle of life thing...

There are also big game parks that will take horses. We have a lion part which will take horses, but not grey ones.

Personally, mine will be PTS by my vet, buried at home wherever possible.

I have no problem at all with the idea of hounds/lions eating my horses, its the actual "taking them there and leaving them there" that I don't like.

Oh I forgot, the greyhound trainers (as in racing greyhounds) also buy horses, but they usually buy the "already dead" rather than shooting them themselves.

ThreeHorseNight
Mar. 27, 2007, 11:31 PM
Good topic. It's interesting to hear other people's experiences and points of view. My first horse is now 24 years old and still with me; I've had him since he was 5 -- he is very special to me, and obviously the time will come when I will have to make a decision. I've been through this with two dogs, but not with a horse. I had to be there for my two dogs when the time came, and I will be there for all my future dogs when the time comes. I've been told by several people that euthanizing a horse, however, is not the same as euthanizing a dog. So even though I want to be there with my horse when the time comes, it makes me think.

I feel there is no *good* answer to what to do with the body after death. (And I feel this way about people too.) I can be buried in the ground and rot, so people can come visit my tombstone (and I have no children and a small family, so I don't know who'd come visit!) Should I bury my animals in a pet cemetary so I can come visit their tombstones? What am I visiting, a dead body? I might as well sit home and look at pictures of the deceased.

I can be cremated, which really makes me oogy, perhaps because I'm Jewish and it makes me think horrible thoughts. Donating my body to science? Not bad, if they treat my body respectfully. Dragged out to be eaten by coyotes (and I do mean me, not my horse)? It shouldn't really matter, because I do believe that what makes us who we are is gone when we die, but, on the other hand, I believe a dead body should be treated respectfully.

A friend had her teenage daughter's horse cremated last year. It was a BIG box of ashes that she picked up. (The horse was already at a veterinary hospital having surgery when it died, so they didn't have to worry too much about the logistics of euthanasia and body disposal). I don't really know what I'd do with the ashes; I have ashes from my dogs, but they just sit on a shelf. I don't think I really care that the ashes are with me, because I have my photographs and memories of them, and those are much more special than a box of ashes. (And honestly, how do I know I got *my* dogs' ashes and not somebody's else??)

I live on a big enough piece of property, that, if I can get a backhoe here, I could bury my horse here. (Deep, very deep, where the coyotes can't get him......) But if it's winter, there's no way I can dig a hole. Do I dig a hole before winter comes? (It reminds me of the episode of Northern Exposure where they had to try to figure out how many people would die that winter so they could dig holes in advance.) I have 12 horses on my property, 4 of them over the age of 20. It's pretty likely that something wlll happen in the next year or so.....

The idea of loading my horse in a trailer and taking him somewhere so he can be euthanized makes me feel bad. My horse has a bad knee, and I'm sure a trailer ride is not very comfortable, so subjecting him to that in his final hours doesn't make me feel good.

I agree with those who say they have no problem with other people feeding their horse's body to the lions, but would have a problem doing it with their own horse. I like to visit the zoo, but I'm not sure what I'd be thinking the next time I walked by the lion habitat.

As I said, it shouldn't really matter what I do to the body because the spirit, the soul, whatever you believe in, is out of the body and in another place. But our emotional attachment to the body is usually pretty strong, and it's painful to think of the body being handled in a less than respectful way, because we still think of that body as being the animal, when in fact, the essence of the animal is gone.

It's nice to share these thoughts with other people who understand the attachment we can have to a horse.

RoseBud143
Mar. 28, 2007, 12:08 AM
why would rosebud take offense? She had already realized that she had only gotten a portion (I didn't see those posts, and hers before I posted). I had no idea how the process worked---it's not offensive, just reality really. It's life..... and death. Something we all are going to have to deal with at some point, for ourselves and our pets. Not talking about the details is just silly, and perpetuates the whole mystique around death and what happens afterwards. jmho.

I know when i read it i Asked rob if the clinic mentioned anything at all about what part i got and he said no. I remember through my tears laughing at the time about how small he got :) I wish i would have know ... about the rest it would have kinda been nice to " spread" his ashes were he loved it most... ( even if it is a lot of ashes) but no, no offense takin:)

county
Mar. 28, 2007, 07:10 AM
The exact same wormers that are used in horses are also used in cattle, hogs, and sheep. Not to mention lots of growth hormones in those other species, horse meat is actually cleaner then the beef most of you buy especially the stuff in fast food places.

Zoos can use other species of meat for cats and sometimes do but horse is much lower in fat and healthier for cats then beef

Sannois
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:06 AM
OK so yes maybe having be a quiet death is for my sake but still....




AS for this NOT true, i had my horse cremated, and i was shocked at how Small it actually was, I got the ashes back, or actually my boyfriend went and got them, and he recieved them in a, say, 3in X 4 in X 5 in box, and right now for my "urn" hes in a small wooden jewlery boy with his pic if you open it, and that box is maybe an 1.5 in hieght, 4in in depth and maybe 5.5 long. So needless to say it is NOT very big. of and maybe wieghs 5 or 6 pounds including the box

EDIT TO ADD.. didnt read the rest of the posts....and i didnt know that, um if thats the case i def. didnt get the whole horse back.. but they never said anything regarding only partial remains....

a PRIVATE creamation, not a greoup one, you will just get back a small amount of ashes. We have a pet creamatorium and they tell you that when you called. I have had 2 cats creamated privatly and they were 100.00 each private, Community is like 25 dollars.

Reynard Ridge
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:37 AM
who would ever want to "donate" their beloved friend as lion food? beats me. i would rather be at my horses side when he dies, rather then have him killed.

Um, seemingly lots of people. Have you actually READ this thoughful and interesting discussion? While there is clearly no concensus - I am seeing a number of people who would like to see the body of their horse (which once the horse is euthanized is simply meat) used for a good purpose, but who also believe that to be there when the horse is put down is important.

There are lots of positions on this - none of them black and white - and I for one and grateful for the thoughtful discussion.

bird4416
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:51 AM
I had a horse many years ago that started colicing frequently. After a trip to the vet clinic, he was determined to have problems from adhesions (I think this was the term) from a previous colic surgery he had before I got him. The prognosis was not good and because of the previous surgery, he was not a good candidate for surgery. I took him home and after much thought, decided to donate him to the vet school for their benefit. They were going to use him as a cadaver for the vet students. They assured me his death would be quick and painless. I did not go with him on the trip but I stood in the driveway bawling as he was driven off. I had only owned him a short time so I didn't have the emotional attachment that I have with my current horses. I think I would opt to do this again with my current horses, but I will accompany them on their final journey and be with them when the deed is done. They are all used to be being hauled to trail ride and hunt so the trailer ride should not be stressful and they can have drugs to ease any pain if they are lame. I think the vet school could put the horse's body to better use than the zoo although I have no problem with others using this option.

Silk
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:54 AM
If I could euthenize my horse instead of shooting him, then yes. Unfortunately, they can't feed meat from a euthenized animal. :( The whole shooting thing just seems so barbaric. (ick!)


Its actually much quicker and less stressful for the animal, providing it is done CORRECTLY!!! The hard part is doing it correctly so that it is instantaneous!

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 09:16 AM
There are times where shooting is more appropiated, like an unhandled horse, or locoed horse that you can't approach safely, or one that hates needles (why fight it to give it it's last shot?) an injured horse that would have to wait for a vet for long time, suffering.

At any other time, when that time is optional, it is up to what you and your vet decide, both manners being fine, if all goes right, which it should.

Not a very pleasant thought, but better be prepared to do what is best for a horse, know your options before hand, so you can decide if and when the time comes.

yellow-horse
Mar. 28, 2007, 09:31 AM
i would not have a problem recycling a horses body, i plan to recycle my own body, but it depends on the horse, if the horse can handle a trailer ride and can take the extra time to get to the zoo or where ever
when i put my old horse down, it was not planned and it was a sunday, so i had few options, we buried her on my land but for the few hours i had to wait for the excavator to come to bury her i thought too bad i didn't know this was coming, i could have arranged for this better

asb_own_me
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:02 AM
There are also big game parks that will take horses. We have a lion part which will take horses, but not grey ones.

:confused: I know ths question is neither here nor there.....but why no greys?

asb_own_me
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:04 AM
Not a very pleasant thought, but better be prepared to do what is best for a horse, know your options before hand, so you can decide if and when the time comes.

Wasn't there a thread a year or two ago about how to properly euthanize a horse by shooting it? I think a link to that thread would be appropriate here. Does anyone remember where/when it was posted?

chism
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:18 AM
I've luckily never had to put a horse down, though it is inevitable at some point in the hopefully far away future. I have had to put a beloved elderly dog down, I chose to do it at home because I wanted her to feel safe & loved in her last moments, she's buried here under an oak tree. I'm very lucky in the fact that I have the land and the equipment to bury a horse here at home...but I also believe that once they're gone...they're gone. The body is just a shell, and while I'm not sure I really believe in a higher power or a "soul", I do believe in an essence, a spark that makes them who they are. When the body dies, that dies too. So, in a way, I think I could wrap my mind around my horse being a part of something bigger, benefitting other creatures in his passing, just not the part about dropping him off at the door and saying "It's been great....see ya".
It's definitely something to ponder.

I'm also curious....why no gray horses at the cat park?

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:26 AM
Maybe because 80% of older gray horses have melanomas, obvious or not?

hosspuller
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:39 AM
Just as a side note: I do believe silencers for guns are illegal.

Supressors (silencers ) are not illegal. You're just required to have a class 3 firearm license to own it.

Mozart
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:53 AM
It would not be my first choice, but I don't have a problem with it. However, I would insist that I have a designated person with a "veto", like my vet, stay to confirm everything was done humanely. I would not blindly trust the zoo to do what they say they will do.

Better than auction or rendering plant imo.

But 4 tickets to the zoo? That seems inappropriate. "Come and see the guys that liked your tasty horse!" How about a certificate of appreciation and a tax deduction for a couple hundred bucks?

AnotherRound
Mar. 28, 2007, 11:04 AM
Predators in the wild are very honest about whether they are "on the hunt" or just going from point A to point B. Horses in the wild cannot afford to waste enerby on being ditzy twits who panic and flee everytime they encounter evidence of a predator. By instinct, horses (and other prey animals) recognize whether a predator is not actively hunting or not.

I do agree with you, greysandbays, but the zoo isn't quite the wild environment you described, but I guess what I was thinking at the time I mentioned the predator stress thing was that when that dear little horsey is standing around in the zoo vet enclosure, getting ready to be a meal, the atmosphere to him is not going to be, gee, a predator is passing by but I can divine that he'not on the hunt, so, guess I'm safe. I think the atmosphere will be, gee, here's me gonna get served up to predators who are, by the by, sounding a mite impatient for their breakfast this morning and I have this creeping suspicion I am it.:eek:

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 28, 2007, 11:10 AM
Greys....when I was doing live cover with my boy, we had 4 greys---he would not cover them. We finally had to bring out his favorite bay girl and collect---then AI the mare.

Weird, but, greys always smell different to me. ????? Don't know why, but especially when wet, they smell different. Maybe that has something to do with it???????? Talking out of my bottom----but who knows.

I have a filly who HATES shots----I have to torture her to get her shot. She will pull back, kick, rear, strike---hates shots. I have tried everything.

Maybe another subject, but she might have to be a candidate if it ever comes to that for her.

The tickets, my friend gave the tickets away, same thing, couldn't look at the animals that had her horse for dinner. I think they are trying to be nice---and want to do something. I like the certificate idea.

Coreene
Mar. 28, 2007, 01:26 PM
Another reminder re chemical euthanization:

Many of us board at public stables and have no option but to chemically euthanize our horses. We do that and then we call John de Vries or whomever the local "yellow truck guy" is, and that person takes the horse's body off to a rendering plant.

asb_own_me
Mar. 28, 2007, 01:32 PM
Greys....when I was doing live cover with my boy, we had 4 greys---he would not cover them. We finally had to bring out his favorite bay girl and collect---then AI the mare.

I wonder if grey stallions take offense to any other color mares :p

My mare doesn't like/has never liked grey horses, and I've always wondered why. She's always wanted to kick, strike or otherwise be nasty in their general direction. I'm starting to see she's not as strange (at least in that way) as I thought!

MichaelB
Mar. 28, 2007, 01:56 PM
I bet my thoroughbred is faster than your lion.

greysandbays
Mar. 28, 2007, 02:12 PM
I don't know much about gun shot vs drugs... but personally, I would choose drugs.

Does this attitude (along with the other one about gunshot "seeming barbaric") scare the hell out of anyone else?

"Gee, I don't know anything about the subject, but by god, I sure have an opinion, and I don't care what the facts might be..... what I think or feel is perfectly good justification for my opinion." :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 02:37 PM
Does this attitude (along with the other one about gunshot "seeming barbaric") scare the hell out of anyone else?

"Gee, I don't know anything about the subject, but by god, I sure have an opinion, and I don't care what the facts might be..... what I think or feel is perfectly good justification for my opinion." :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

That is what is behind so many of these ban slaughter supporters, no surprise it extends to so many other areas of these controversies.

Some vote after studying issues, others following someone else's prompts and yet others on "gut feeling", that may be anything, from not liking the word, here "slaughter" and what it represents, (who would "like" that anyway!) to because they don't like someone's hair color.:confused:

There is much in our lives we "don't like", but as we grow up and become adults understand that is the way the world runs best.
That includes, amongst other, yep, slaughter, if we want to make that one last use of our animals, as humans have evolved doing for hundreds of thousands of years, rather than waste one more resource on a "gut feeling".

2DogsFarm
Mar. 28, 2007, 02:53 PM
This thread makes me want to vomit. I for one could not imagine doing this any more than I could donate my mother's body. Call me names, flame me, throw rocks at me. I'm just not made of that kind of stuff, sorry.

moonriverfarm:
I understand your feelings are very strong, but my husband was an organ donor (per his wishes). Thanks to him a young father is alive today.

While I am not opposed to the idea of donating the body to a zoo or wildlife preserve I don't know that I could stand by while a horse of mine was shot. It's not that I object to death by bullet, but if I cannot be next to my horse when it happens it's not a method I could live with afterwards.

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:01 PM
moonriverfarm:
I understand your feelings are very strong, but my husband was an organ donor (per his wishes). Thanks to him a young father is alive today.

While I am not opposed to the idea of donating the body to a zoo or wildlife preserve I don't know that I could stand by while a horse of mine was shot. It's not that I object to death by bullet, but if I cannot be next to my horse when it happens it's not a method I could live with afterwards.

You should not stand next to a horse euthanized by an injection, as they can at times rear and fall on you.:eek:

No matter where you are, it is traumatic and hard to get over, your horse/animal or someone else's.
Ask any veterinarian.

I have a rare heart defect and the University's medical center would love to get to peek at me when I am dead.
My Dr is a professor there, so they will get to do so.
I wish I could look over the medical student's shoulder that will get to "find" it.:)

If as a culture we were not so attached to our bodies after we are dead, we could do more with them than let them rot.
Glad that many are signing as organ donors, so others can live.

2DogsFarm
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:17 PM
[quote=Bluey;2323637]You should not stand next to a horse euthanized by an injection, as they can at times rear and fall on you.:eek:

I hope you are speaking from experience and not just hearsay.
When my DH's horse Buddy was euthanized he was at the vet hospital at Purdue U (it was not a good couple of years, I lost them both).
I was allowed in the stall with Buddy as he was tranquilized for the lethal injection with 2 or 3 vet techs to make sure he wouldn't fall on me as he went down. I was able to help ease him down and hold his head as he passed - I told him it was time for him to join Tom.
While it was a quick and peaceful death it was still heart-wrenching but I'm glad I stayed and that the last thing he heard was my voice.

jetsmom
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:28 PM
Bluey, as someone who has stated on another thread, that they don't read anything that is anti slaughter, it's interesting that you seem to think you are "educated" on the issue...especially about the arguments and supporting facts of those who think it should be banned. Suffice it to say that most anti horse slaughter people are pretty well versed and educated on the horse slaughter system. We don't accept that it is necessary or that it is the same as humane euthanasia.


That said, I have no problem with someone donating their horse to a zoo, or euth by gunshot by a trained person. I wouldn't send my horse to the zoo, but it doesn't bother me if someone else wants to do it with theirs.

MandyVA
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:30 PM
That is what is behind so many of these ban slaughter supporters, no surprise it extends to so many other areas of these controversies.

Some vote after studying issues, others following someone else's prompts and yet others on "gut feeling", that may be anything, from not liking the word, here "slaughter" and what it represents, (who would "like" that anyway!) to because they don't like someone's hair color.:confused:

There is much in our lives we "don't like", but as we grow up and become adults understand that is the way the world runs best.
That includes, amongst other, yep, slaughter, if we want to make that one last use of our animals, as humans have evolved doing for hundreds of thousands of years, rather than waste one more resource on a "gut feeling".


I hope you see the obvious irony in your painting a whole group of people whom you've never met with such a broad brush. You may not "like" people who disagree with you, but that doesn't prove that those people are ignorant. You don't in fact know that one single person opposes slaughter because of a gut feeling, you just assume that.

And if burger king's announcement that they're switching to cage-free eggs and crate-free pork is any indication, I'd say that a good many of us learn when we grow up that just because things have been one way for a certain time doesn't mean we can't do better. Some of us have indeed evolved...others not so much.

Lildunhorse
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:39 PM
Aside from the fact that a few folks have made the comment that they could never send their horses to slaughter, I fail to see how this is in any way a slaughter thread.
How about a break?

archieflies
Mar. 28, 2007, 03:59 PM
Aside from the fact that a few folks have made the comment that they could never send their horses to slaughter, I fail to see how this is in any way a slaughter thread.
How about a break?

Good idea! :)

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 04:25 PM
I hope you see the obvious irony in your painting a whole group of people whom you've never met with such a broad brush. You may not "like" people who disagree with you, but that doesn't prove that those people are ignorant. You don't in fact know that one single person opposes slaughter because of a gut feeling, you just assume that.

And if burger king's announcement that they're switching to cage-free eggs and crate-free pork is any indication, I'd say that a good many of us learn when we grow up that just because things have been one way for a certain time doesn't mean we can't do better. Some of us have indeed evolved...others not so much.

I have it seen posted here, in slaughter ban discussions. Guess you, well "evolved" as you are, have not?:winkgrin:
And I was not "painting all", if you reread my post you can see that I was referring only to those that do go by their "gut feelings" on any issue, not just these brought up here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greysandbays
Does this attitude (along with the other one about gunshot "seeming barbaric") scare the hell out of anyone else?

"Gee, I don't know anything about the subject, but by god, I sure have an opinion, and I don't care what the facts might be..... what I think or feel is perfectly good justification for my opinion."

That is what is behind so many of these ban slaughter supporters, no surprise it extends to so many other areas of these controversies.

Some vote after studying issues, others following someone else's prompts and yet others on "gut feeling", that may be anything, from not liking the word, here "slaughter" and what it represents, (who would "like" that anyway!) to because they don't like someone's hair color.

There is much in our lives we "don't like", but as we grow up and become adults understand that is the way the world runs best.
That includes, amongst other, yep, slaughter, if we want to make that one last use of our animals, as humans have evolved doing for hundreds of thousands of years, rather than waste one more resource on a "gut feeling".

MandyVA
Mar. 28, 2007, 04:30 PM
Ok Bluey, show me one person who has posted that they formed their slaughter opinion on their gut feeling alone.

archieflies
Mar. 28, 2007, 04:43 PM
And now I'll attempt to type out a story about not being prepared for a horse's death and not having a disposal plan. Of course, its sad and long. I was taught to ride by a very old man who had a field full of older horses. He did his best to take good care of the horses, and they loved him, and he was generally a good guy, though I didn't always agree with him. Over the years that I rode his horses, several developed problems or just got old and were put down. He was educatated with a gun, and rather than having a vet out, he'd dig a large hole on the farm, lead the horse into it, give it a carrot, and shoot it. All of us kids were well aware of this and somehow not creeped out by it, though we were never there for the shot. There were quite a few sink holes around the farm, more of just little dips in the ground, and when we'd walk over them we'd say hey to whatever horse was burried there, even the ones long dead that we'd never met. Eventually, as the old man got older, we all moved on to real riding stables and trainers and such, but I'd often go back to visit him and the horses, because they were a special part of my life. Finally he gave in to developers and sold his land, but was allowed to stay there for a while with the horses until they were ready to build. I went out one afternoon to help him clean some old tack to sell, and when I pulled my car up to the spot I always parked, I noticed a horse laying on the ground, dead. When I got out of the car, I recognized a mare I'd taken lessons on a few years before, and I noticed a small stream of smoke coming from her body. I knelt by her and said goodbye, and somehow it wasn't that weird at all, but a bit sad. Turns out she'd been having some nosebleeds and wasn't herself, and the vet had come out and told the owner she was developing several tumors (this was an older grey Arab, and therefore not a surprise). The mare's full sister had previously been lost to bad tumors, and knowing it would turn bad and that there was little he could do to take care of her, especially considering the land had been sold, he knew she needed to be put down. But, since he no longer owned the land, he could not use his normal method- you just don't bury a horse on land that's about to have houses built on it! So, he had the vet euthanize the horse under a big oak tree (my parking spot) , and got a number from the vet for someone to pick up the body. Then it turned out nobody would be able to come pick up the body for some time. Not having another plan, he decided to try burning the body himself. Of course, horses don't just burn that easily, they smolder for a very long time. I don't remember exactly how long it took, because I tried to stay away from that area of the farm... but any predators that may have sped it up were kept away by the smoke. So there she sat for quite a while. I don't blame the old man, he did his best. It was just odd to me and a picture thats been in my head for a while, and this thread reminded me. Anyway, there's no real moral to my rambling tale, more of just a peek at what can happen if you don't have a plan, or if your plan is no longer feasible.

...

As far as taking one to the zoo, I'd never rule it out. In fact, I think if I had a horse that was still able to trailer comfortably, it'd be ok. Unload the horse, but don't take them immediately in. Lead the horse around a while, calming them and saying your goodbyes and getting him used to the place while you're still there. Even better if someone who will be inside can maybe walk with you a bit, so the horse gets used to them as well. And then, once all is calm and quiet, and the horse isn't worried by the new place, let them take him. You've had a chance to say goodbye. I can understand wanting to be there with the horse when he dies, but as far as not trusting the zookeepers, I don't know. I think the zoos have enough people that know animals very well and love them. I don't think they'd treat your horse unkindly, and I doubt they're uneducated with a gun. Zoos don't hire people off the street to do this, I'm sure. And if something DID go wrong with the bullet- would you being there stop it? Would your vet being there stop it? No, it would still be too late to take it back. In the end, you'd just be more upset. But really, I think the chances of the zoo mishandling the horse and having something go wrong are about the same as that happening with your vet.

ponygirl
Mar. 28, 2007, 04:50 PM
So, a friend of mine is the Director of Animal Programs at a zoo. I decided to chat with her about this topic b/c I find it quite interesting and was curious as to hear her talk of this. Her zoo doesn't accept outside "donations" because she said animal rights activitist would be beating down their doors. Instead they purchase from companies that formulate diets specifically for exotics. She said it's a very touchy subject, mentioning that some activists want zoos to use bovines. She sees no difference between bovines and equines when looking at them in at face value - as hooved animals. She did say she was surprised that the zoos that are doing this aren't getting a bunch of pressure from activists.

Lildunhorse
Mar. 28, 2007, 04:58 PM
She did say she was surprised that the zoos that are doing this aren't getting a bunch of pressure from activists.

I must say, I support the practice whole-heartedly and wish more zoos would consider it.

drmgncolor
Mar. 28, 2007, 05:48 PM
When my DH's horse Buddy was euthanized he was at the vet hospital at Purdue U (it was not a good couple of years, I lost them both).
I was allowed in the stall with Buddy as he was tranquilized for the lethal injection with 2 or 3 vet techs to make sure he wouldn't fall on me as he went down. I was able to help ease him down and hold his head as he passed - I told him it was time for him to join Tom.
While it was a quick and peaceful death it was still heart-wrenching but I'm glad I stayed and that the last thing he heard was my voice.

2Dogs - I was fine with this thread until I got here and now I am tearing. My heart goes out to you!

I have never really thought about what I would do with my mare when it is her time, so this thread has me thinking. If given the choice when her time comes, I want to be with her. I was there when she was born and I will be there when she dies.

If someone would come to my mare, "do the deed," and then haul the corpse off to the lions, I think I could handle that. But I would not be visiting any Big Cats for a long time.

Horsecrazy27
Mar. 28, 2007, 05:50 PM
I don't think this Wild Lion Park advertises this ===I didn't even know about it till my vet. told me.

I think more zoo's should consider it also.

:) Although, I don't know if I could do it.

Auventera Two
Mar. 28, 2007, 05:58 PM
I wouldn't personally do it, but it might be the best choice for some people.

farmgirl88
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:00 PM
I was watching Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe the other night and they were feeding the big cats chunks of horse meat ina pool of horse blood. i was thoroughly grossed out. The blood came in a sealed bag so im guessing it came from the slaughter house. Still sad. In Connecticut we have rules about not burying our animals, but who actually listens?At Uconn under federal law, if a cow can walk onto the trailer, she goes to the slaughter house, if they can't walk, they are euthanized by a vet and then held in a freezer at pathobiology for students to learn on, and then from there, they either go to composting on the property or they go to rendering plants for fertilizer. You can legally compost your animals in your backyard, but not bury them.

mighty mite
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:04 PM
Not to be crass, but the urn we got back from my dad's ashes was heavy. I cannot imagine a horse's remains. You wouldn't be able to pick up the urn on your own.

I have heard (don't remember where) that it is/was common practice to only cremate the head/neck of the horse - is this true?


I had my horse cremated whole. His ashes are in an oak urn that weighs 57 pounds. It sits on a shelf in my living room. There's a place on the urn (it's big and square) for his photo. The cremation cost $1500. The man from the crematory came to the barn and respectfully waited outside until we were finished. When my horse was gone, the man, my vet and a friend (she was very impressed with the way the man handled him) loaded my boy onto a cart that was then covered tightly with a tarp and off he went with my most precious cargo. Two days later I received the urn with his ashes insideand a certificate of his cremation via UPS.

I know it is not easy to find a place to cremate a horse. I made sure I lived in an area that had one because that was very important to me. I had even called this place a couple of years before he died because I wanted everything to be in place when the time came. I didn't want to make any rash decisions or be surprised by the cost involved.

I see nothing wrong with going to a zoo but I would never ever have been able to leave my boy and just drive off. He died with his head in my arms, very peacefully. I would not have wanted it any other way.

goeslikestink
Mar. 28, 2007, 08:59 PM
i odnt beleive in live meat trade--
but-- there slways abut
if like as when the horse is pts by whatever methods
one can cremaite it -- and keep the ashes as my matey does on her fireplace
which is something i dont perticular like but there you go

one can have it shot--- or the jab
i have two in royal vetinary colllege at newmarket - wich went there atfer they were pts and pm done
one went to hunts men for the hounds
and the others went to the zoos
the body of a horse is a body -- we cant bury bodies of horses in uk
we have to have a proper place to dispose of as now it all regualted
but if the horse is free of desease and medication can go for meat to the zoos etc -- i havent a prolem with that as zoos and hunts have to feed the whatever and people have jobs to do -- and income to make
zoos have to relay on donations or public revenue on gates etc
and the zoo animals are on the increase of becoming extinct in some speices
so any help one can give them towards there survial
and for those to keep there jobs then i have no objection

xegeba
Mar. 28, 2007, 09:26 PM
Ok Bluey, show me one person who has posted that they formed their slaughter opinion on their gut feeling alone. I refuse to educate myself on that particular subject... My Gut has served me well over the years... and somehow I just don't think that we are going to be seeing a new Reality Show on Fox titled... My Amazing Journey to the Slaughter House... My organs are donated... but if GOD FORBID... something should happen to one of my kid's... I'm just not sure I could do that... hopefully I never have to make that decision. Could I feed my equine children to the lions at the Zoo? Probably not... maybe a starving lion at the Zoo... the whole thought is depressing.

Bluey
Mar. 28, 2007, 09:37 PM
Yes, it is a depressing thought.:no:

For some, they feel better if they have provided for if and when it happens.
Others may prefer to do all the thinking if and when it happens, not have to think about it now.

Fine either way.

I have a healthy and sound 26 year old now, that may be with us much longer, we hope, but the thought crosses my mind.
A few years ago we had to provide for an old crippled horse we had forever, teh vet took care of him and two years ago we had a horse injured seriously and, after three weeks at the vets, we euthanized him there.

It is never easy, it is so hard when the time comes.:(

poltroon
Mar. 28, 2007, 09:47 PM
My organs are donated... but if GOD FORBID... something should happen to one of my kid's... I'm just not sure I could do that... hopefully I never have to make that decision.

I am deeply, deeply grateful to a couple who tragically lost their 16 year old son, and chose to donate his organs. Because of them, I've had a father for 8 more years (and still going strong) and my daughter has gotten to know and love her grandfather. It was an amazing gift of life to our family.

Show_hunters
Mar. 28, 2007, 10:06 PM
I don't have a problem with it. When I was younger and living back east, we would take the old or injured horses to the hounds that were used for foxhunting. It was traditional for the old foxhunters to die this way. So, I don't look at the zoo situation any differently.

:eek: :no: :eek: :cry:
Thank you...... now I am going to have nightmares! That is nutzo. There are kinder ways.....

xegeba
Mar. 28, 2007, 11:08 PM
I am deeply, deeply grateful to a couple who tragically lost their 16 year old son, and chose to donate his organs. Because of them, I've had a father for 8 more years (and still going strong) and my daughter has gotten to know and love her grandfather. It was an amazing gift of life to our family. poltroon... when my nephew was killed at the age of 24... his parents donated his organs to those that needed them... and the rest of him went to research. I think that when it really happens to you... you have a better grip on the reality. Actually... if I think about it logically and not emotionally... Thank You for the reality check... and I am happy to hear that your father is doing well.

xegeba
Mar. 28, 2007, 11:22 PM
:eek: :no: :eek: :cry:
Thank you...... now I am going to have nightmares! That is nutzo. There are kinder ways..... I don't think the poster meant that the horse was thrown to the hounds alive... but maybe she did... I hope not.

archieflies
Mar. 29, 2007, 12:01 AM
I don't think the poster meant that the horse was thrown to the hounds alive... but maybe she did... I hope not.

Ok, come on and think about it a second... if hounds were fed by attacking and eating a LIVE horse, are they going to be so friendly to the horses next time they're out on a hunt, or are they going to think the horses might be easier to hunt than the fox? Nobody's going to teach the dogs to attack live horses. See, its not even a rational idea. Don't worry so much.

xegeba
Mar. 29, 2007, 12:06 AM
Ok, come on and think about it a second... if hounds were fed by attacking and eating a LIVE horse, are they going to be so friendly to the horses next time they're out on a hunt, or are they going to think the horses might be easier to hunt than the fox? Nobody's going to teach the dogs to attack live horses. See, its not even a rational idea. Don't worry so much. For God Sake's, Archie... how the hell do I know what goes on in foxhunting land? Furthermore... I am logged onto COTH... anything is possible here..

luv my paint
Mar. 29, 2007, 12:10 AM
I had my mare creamated after I had to put her down at age 29. I did not have a plan as she was very healthy and jumping 2 days before she died. She coliced badly and we took her to the vet hospital, but her chances of making it through surgery were not good, so we had her put down. I could not bear to watch so my regular vet ( who had been her vet for many years, and our barn manager went with her so she would not be frightened. My vet knew that I could not bear to have my childhood friend sent to the renderer so she made all the creamation arrangements and I got a 80 lb box within a week. It cost around $1800.00.
I could not bear to send my horse to be meat for lions, but I agree that it is a personal choice.

Wanderluster
Mar. 29, 2007, 01:12 AM
I have lived through the terrible moment that no one expects. I led a healthy horse up to a trailer and had him rear up flip over and die after sustaining a life ending injury.

I wish that I had been able to catch him as he fell over. I could not.
The decision was made to offer his body to the the Wildlife Waystation.

It made his passing more poignant to accept that although we could not have prevented his death some animals lived through this contribution.

Would I make the same arrangements for my dear pets or any beloved family member? No... I don't think that I have the constitution to allow that. I don't think that I could drop off a horse and leave it to be shot- I wouldn't leave my dog to be PTS without being there why would my horse be any different ?

However just based upon the theoretical question I would endorse giving the remains of any living being the opportunity to sustain life.

There is a personal choice and a line to be drawn for everyone facing this dilemma. No one is wrong for choosing that which brings them comfort and solace in the end.

lddowler
Mar. 29, 2007, 01:44 AM
You are correct, it is more the idea of shooting that seems more violent than the actual death itself. In almost 30 years of being around horses, I have seen two horses shot to death after breaking their legs (years ago). I have also seen 4 euthanasias by barbituate overdose. The latter was more violent each time in all except for one case.

There is actually a local vet near me that will give her patients the option of euthanasia or shooting and will do it herself as well. Other vets in the area will also let you know about the option as well. We only have one man that will come out and haul the 'body' away as we are not allowed to bury due to being too close to the water table. However, he charges more than the actual euthanasia itself.

While every case isn't the same, having different options when it comes time to make a decision is nice to know.

I've witnessed two horses being put down and it was very peaceful. I have heard that sometimes its traumatic, but my vet gives a full general anesthetic first, then administers the medication. The horse drops relatively gracefully and you can have a few minutes before giving the ok for the final dose. My old mare went down with a mouthful of carrots, a bit of a grunt when she lay down, and then never moved or made a sound. The vet confirmed that she was gone with the stethoscope, and left us in peace. Maybe other vets don't pre-drug? I could see that being like having a stroke instead of a nap.


I was lucky enough to have access to land to bury her, but if my choices were the rendering plant or the zoo, I'd choose the zoo. There was an area about three hours from here that was protected bear habitat. I heard of a couple people who donated their horses to the wilderness. One ponied the the horse up a trail and shot him, the other simply released the horse to the wild from the side of the road and drove away. She couldn't bear the thought (no pun intended) of having her horse shot and prefered to just let nature take its course. I personally think it may have been a tad negligent.

It certainly is not a pleasant decision to have to make.

xegeba
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:02 AM
She couldn't bear the thought (no pun intended) of having her horse shot and prefered to just let nature take its course. see what I mean, Archie? this is what I'm talking about. Lion, tiger and Bears... hounds, PV... it is hard being a horse...

lddowler
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:08 AM
see what I mean, Archie? this is what I'm talking about. Bears, hounds, PV... it is hard being a horse...


If horses were 1/10th their body weight, it would be much easier. Its the sheer size of the animal that makes the disposal of their body difficult to co-ordinate. I don't see any people offering their dogs to the bears or lions. As a horse owner, its just one of those things that is difficult to deal with on the practical level.

I was actually half-tempted to have my old mare stuffed, but I thought that it might be a little freaky to have a QH in my living room:lol: The pasture and cherry tree are just going to have to do.

xegeba
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:14 AM
for stuffing the barn burners and the hubby... they will fill up the odd corner in the livingroom...

Bluey
Mar. 29, 2007, 07:18 AM
---"Quote:
Originally Posted by lddowler
She couldn't bear the thought (no pun intended) of having her horse shot and prefered to just let nature take its course.

see what I mean, Archie? this is what I'm talking about. Lion, tiger and Bears... hounds, PV... it is hard being a horse..."---

That was terrible, poor horse.

Guess that she didn't know how "nature" takes care of dying, when predators eat something?
The prey is most times eaten alive, taking long to die.

We come onto a mountain lion or coyote prey, after they start to eat it and that is still very much alive, conscious and trying to get up to get away from us.
A few times we get there a few hours later and find a half eaten animal, still alive after those hours laying there.
"Nature" is anything but kind and compassionate.:eek:

Would not want that on my horse. Talk about cruel.

asb_own_me
Mar. 29, 2007, 09:06 AM
I am deeply, deeply grateful to a couple who tragically lost their 16 year old son, and chose to donate his organs. Because of them, I've had a father for 8 more years (and still going strong) and my daughter has gotten to know and love her grandfather. It was an amazing gift of life to our family.

My family was also fortunate enough to benefit from someone who planned for his/her end of life. Although my father isn't with me any longer (he died 1/29/04 of esophageal cancer), he had a liver transplant in June 1998 that saved his life. I will be forever grateful to that person and his/her family for letting me have my dad for almost 6 more years.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could ALL think rationally and calmly, and plan ahead for the worst? If we could make every action a positive action and not a REaction, that every choice we made could in some way benefit others? But we can't always do that. We are human and have feelings and thoughts and ideas, and sometimes we just want what we want because we want it. I will choose cremation because I have that hangup about wanting her with me. If I bury her, who's to say I will always live there? That's my "want" that I have to prepare for. It might not do any good for anyone else, but it's what I'll do for my horse. For me? They can take anything and everything that could help someone - and I encourage everyone I know to at least consider that as a option.

jparkes
Mar. 29, 2007, 10:42 AM
:eek: :no: :eek: :cry:
Thank you...... now I am going to have nightmares! That is nutzo. There are kinder ways.....

Good Lord, this is almost getting funny.

No, the horses are not being thrown to the hounds alive, what kind of thought could even enter someone's brain cell! This was considered noble to the old retired foxhunter...if it couldn't be out hunting with the hounds, then they would be happy hunting in the hounds belly.

I bet you this tradition has been handed down for many generations.

I wonder if those of us who look at the end of our animal's life and see how other animals can benefit from their loss, are the same about our own ends. As for me, I'm an organ and tissue donor, plus cremation.

Red Barn
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:05 PM
I agree with jparkes. The thing with the hounds has a certain poetry to it.

The zoo idea is just ugly.

msrobin
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:30 PM
OMG NO!!!!
This is a horse not a broken down car! Goodness that is horrible.
If you have a horse then you should have already figured out a plan if your horse needs to be put down. If not, then you better start.

How could someone put there horse through what happens at those plants?
If they do then obviously they either don't know what happens or don't care.

Sorry none of my horses would ever step foot near a killing plant for any reason.

county
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:34 PM
I know what happens ( same thing as other species of livestock and it doesn't bother there eaten either ) And I care both. And I have plans for all my livestock when the time comes there done on earth. Have for close to 50 years now.

Lildunhorse
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:37 PM
Good Lord, this is almost getting funny.



I wonder if those of us who look at the end of our animal's life and see how other animals can benefit from their loss, are the same about our own ends.

I know of a few people who will benefit ALL animals, just by their being gone.

hundredacres
Mar. 29, 2007, 02:58 PM
I will not do this. I am sure that my horses will smell, will see, and will hear what's out there and will feel frightened by what's out there. Therefore, I will not subject my "children" to this frightening experiences.

I understand that this is less inviting than doing it at home...some people can't do that.

Horses live at zoos. The sights and smells don't make them insane or anything. If a horse is used to travel, it shoulodn't stress them out too badly.

IMO, it's better than being heaped up onto a truck in a pile of carcasses and going to the rendering plant to be "processed".......but it is still tough to wrap my brain around.

Personally I think it's a good option if someone can stomach it.

hundredacres
Mar. 29, 2007, 03:02 PM
, the other simply released the horse to the wild from the side of the road and drove away. She couldn't bear the thought (no pun intended) of having her horse shot and prefered to just let nature take its course. I personally think it may have been a tad negligent.



Gee, ya think? Especially since the poor horse probably suffered immensely without proper care before it died. If a truck didn't smash it on a road somehwere. This person is an absolute idiot.

Bluey
Mar. 29, 2007, 03:26 PM
I know of a few people who will benefit ALL animals, just by their being gone.

I also have met lately some people with little sense and harebrained ideas how to "help" horses, that horses would be better if those people forgot horses existed.:winkgrin:

2DogsFarm
Mar. 29, 2007, 03:32 PM
I have never really thought about what I would do with my mare when it is her time, so this thread has me thinking. If given the choice when her time comes, I want to be with her. I was there when she was born and I will be there when she dies.

Thank you - in a funny way having been there for previous pets helped me make the decision to end life support for Tom. We had discussed Heroic Efforts while he was alive and healthy, so I knew it was what he would have wanted. I have never regretted my decisions - either staying with my pets as they were given lethal injections, or consenting to have Tom removed from the ventilator.

As xegeba said: you cannot predict how you will react until you are in a situation, perspective changes.

If you can stay with your mare by all means do it, if you find you can't then don't - vets and vet techs are compassionate people who will treat your companion with respect and dignity.

I truly feel that once the animating soul has left a body it is just a shell. The life that inhabited it can't be hurt by what happens to what remains

Coreene
Mar. 29, 2007, 03:50 PM
OMG NO!!!!
This is a horse not a broken down car! Goodness that is horrible.
If you have a horse then you should have already figured out a plan if your horse needs to be put down. If not, then you better start.

How could someone put there horse through what happens at those plants?
If they do then obviously they either don't know what happens or don't care.

Sorry none of my horses would ever step foot near a killing plant for any reason.Funny, but I never saw a single post on this thread that was advocating slaughter. Or did you mean something else by "killing plant"????

goeslikestink
Mar. 29, 2007, 05:11 PM
i odnt think jpakes menat alive horses-- as they used to do that with old hunters here to but they were put to sleep 1st
the huntmans have the right and leicensed to shot and pts horses for teh hounds -- i dont have aproblem either with it --
has been a traditional thing for years -and they are now govern by defra
but they have to have proper faclities they normally come to premises and shot the horse then take it away -- its a bit cheaper than a vet hence why people still do it as of the costs envloved -- but horses/ponies are treated with dignity

CosmosMariner
Mar. 29, 2007, 10:16 PM
At first I was filled with horror. I couldn't believe anyone would ever do this. Then I gave it a second thought.

There comes a time for all old horses. Why not contribute to a worthy cause??

I mean it is not like they let the big cats chase them down. They humanely shoot them. From what I have heard that is a quick death.

At least it is an option to consider.

Obviously it is not for the horse who is in immediate need of pain relief..... ie broken leg, severe colic. How about an older horse who is genuinely in pain and is no longer pasture sound?

Don't get me wrong I love, I mean LOVE, my horses. I have rescued almost all of them and nursed them back to health. I would love to bury them on my property. What or whom does that help? Their meat could help save another animal from slaughter when their time comes. That can't be bad right?? We are not taliking about hauling a healthy sound horse there.

My main problem is that I cannot be there. I have been with all of my horses throughout their deaths. Some have been easy and others have not been. It has been painful to me each and every time.

The last horse we had to let go would have been a perfect canidate for this program. He had a degenerative condition that eventually made him unsound even in the pasture. He knew it was time and he was ready. He is buried in our back yard.

It certainly is something to think about whe the time nears for some of my other older horses.

throwurheart
Mar. 29, 2007, 10:23 PM
Then again, in So Cal at a public stable, our only option is one of those two or cremation, which just isn't what I'm about.

I can speak with authority on this, having just lost my dear guy two weeks ago, best partner I've ever had. He was full of drugs (nasty colic) so when I put him down, still in shock, the hospital essentially didn't give me any choice but solo cremation (so I could have the ashes) or group cremation. I understand that this area of the country generally does landfill dumps if you call the service for at-home euthanasia, so I'm relieved to have been at the hospital.

With the ongoing slaughter debate, I always said to myself "circle of life - if my guy can feed others, then that's a good use of a body he no longer inhabits". Unfortunately, I didn't get that chance. Death is death, it's all very, very bad. As long as we treat them as kindly and respectfully while they're still conscious, that's all that's truly important, in my book.

Kelly G
Mar. 29, 2007, 10:24 PM
No matter how practical, no matter how sensible, I just couldn't do this in a thousand years. I'd just never be able to live with myself, and I'd never get the thought out of my head afterwards. And I know that's not rational, given the alternative's not a lot better, but I just couldn't ever do it!
Kelly.

xegeba
Mar. 29, 2007, 10:51 PM
I can speak with authority on this, having just lost my dear guy two weeks ago, best partner I've ever had. He was full of drugs (nasty colic) so when I put him down, still in shock, the hospital essentially didn't give me any choice but solo cremation throwurheart... Godspeed to your boy. I know you are going through some tough times...

holmes
Mar. 29, 2007, 11:13 PM
Donate? I know a guy that gets $0.50-0.65 per pound for his horses from the zoo. I am not opposed to do this, did it before with the hounds in England.

throwurheart
Mar. 29, 2007, 11:14 PM
thank you, xegeba, yes, it's pretty damn awful. My barn friends have been absolutely amazing, which has helped me keep it together somewhat.

Meadow36
Mar. 29, 2007, 11:26 PM
The old trail horses that are lead out into the hills ... they are shot first, right?? Not left to be hunted by "the predators"?? Dumb question I know but it's really bothering me to think they are just abandoned there.

When cavalry war heroes were killed in battle, it was tradition for their trusty mounts to be shot and buried with them. Just a little trivia.

xegeba
Mar. 30, 2007, 12:24 AM
Donate? I know a guy that gets $0.50-0.65 per pound for his horses from the zoo. I am not opposed to do this, did it before with the hounds in England.
I suppose you drive a yellow Testarossa too...

meredithbarlow
Mar. 30, 2007, 08:51 AM
If I one day walked out into the field and found my horse dead, I could give him to the zoo for meat... of course I doubt they would want him since they wouldn't know the cercumstances surrounding his death. But I wouldn't want to scare my animal before his death by bringing him to a strange place... but I wouldn't have a problem with someone else doing this at all, sounds better than an auction where the horse could easily go for meat and NOT be humanely killed. Gunshot euthanasia is fine IMO.

HappyTalk
Mar. 30, 2007, 10:45 AM
I have an acquaintance who has actually done this. She took her horse to an animal sanctuary were he was humanely put down by gunshot. It was not traumatizing for her or the horse. She wrote an article about the experience to let people know that this was a way to humanely dispose of their horse. I will try to find the article and post it. I am thinking that this alternative would be only for horses with no recent drugs or wormers in their systems.

Lildunhorse
Mar. 30, 2007, 12:37 PM
The old trail horses that are lead out into the hills ... they are shot first, right?? Not left to be hunted by "the predators"?? Dumb question I know but it's really bothering me to think they are just abandoned there.

When cavalry war heroes were killed in battle, it was tradition for their trusty mounts to be shot and buried with them. Just a little trivia.

No, meadow, the ones that I speak of are not abandoned. They are dispatched with one good, clean shot.

Coreene
Mar. 30, 2007, 12:54 PM
I can speak with authority on this, having just lost my dear guy two weeks ago, best partner I've ever had. He was full of drugs (nasty colic) so when I put him down, still in shock, the hospital essentially didn't give me any choice but solo cremation (so I could have the ashes) or group cremation. I understand that this area of the country generally does landfill dumps if you call the service for at-home euthanasia, so I'm relieved to have been at the hospital.

With the ongoing slaughter debate, I always said to myself "circle of life - if my guy can feed others, then that's a good use of a body he no longer inhabits". Unfortunately, I didn't get that chance. Death is death, it's all very, very bad. As long as we treat them as kindly and respectfully while they're still conscious, that's all that's truly important, in my book.I am so sorry. I did not have a choice either; in So Cal they are, more times than not, rendered instead of cremated. Some time back you could arrange for them to go to a landfill in Simi Valley, which later became a park.

About six months after he died, someone posted a link here to a site that describes exactly what happens in the rendering plant. At that time I was sobbing as I read it - but of course it was like a trainwreck in that I had to read it all - but now, looking back, I am glad that I did find out.

carosello
Mar. 30, 2007, 01:31 PM
My former boss did this with a yearling. The yearling broke his leg very badly. there was some sort of large animal private breeding place in a town down the road (not very far). The vet and owner opted to have him transported there. My only real problem was they could not give him any meds for the trip which to me was the part I didnt like- I would have just had him put down on my farm. But I can see times when this could possibly work out. I dont know if I would do it but I think its better then #1 letting an animal suffer or going to slaughter @ Cavels

Anyplace Farm
Mar. 30, 2007, 01:43 PM
I couldn't do it. I've seen hounds feeding off a horse donated to the hunt. Just a little too 'jungle' for me.

I'd have recurring nightmares about some scrawny hound (clearly in need of some good horsemeat, though) gnashing into my boy and pulling his flesh from his rotting carcass. No thanks.

Coreene
Mar. 30, 2007, 01:58 PM
At least your dog won't eat your dead body if you die at home and no one finds you for a while. Your cat will.

Quinn
Mar. 30, 2007, 02:08 PM
Hunglikeapug, I think I'd rather feed YOU to the hounds and give THEM a bone to chew on.

Throwurheart so terribly sorry for your loss.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

asb_own_me
Mar. 30, 2007, 06:42 PM
At least your dog won't eat your dead body if you die at home and no one finds you for a while. Your cat will.

:lol: :lol: :lol: That is the ONLY post someone needs to read if they wonder why your avatar line reads "Someone had to say it!"

PERFECT!

Coreene
Mar. 30, 2007, 06:57 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: That is the ONLY post someone needs to read if they wonder why your avatar line reads "Someone had to say it!"

PERFECT!Well, yeah, because someone always has to say it! :cool:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 30, 2007, 07:19 PM
throwurheart... Godspeed to your boy. I know you are going through some tough times...

ditto. Hugs to you.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Mar. 30, 2007, 07:22 PM
Maybe this is too anthropomorphic of me, but I feel very strongly, if at all possible, to be with them - human, dog, cat, horse, whatever - when they pass on. I don't know what happens at the other end. I just don't want them to leave here alone. I want the last words to be of comfort and love.

holmes
Mar. 30, 2007, 10:06 PM
Hunglikeapug, I think I'd rather feed YOU to the hounds and give THEM a bone to chew on.

It is a very common method of disposing of dead horses in England - I will let you into a little secret - once they are dead, it makes no difference.

Alagirl
Mar. 30, 2007, 10:09 PM
It is a very common method of disposing of dead horses in England - I will let you into a little secret - once they are dead, it makes no difference.


Don't burst their bubble!

T.G.I.F.
Mar. 30, 2007, 11:53 PM
I considered either donating to a cat reserve that is near by or to a vet school. I picked the vet school as my horse had lameness issues that I thought would be benificial to a student to learn about hands on. He was a show horse at one point so the trailer ride was a non-issue for him. He adapted quickly to new situations so while he was at the school to him it was like being at a new boarding barn.

stuge
Mar. 31, 2007, 12:05 AM
Boy, do you bring up a potpourri of issues there, mostly taken out of context.
Cattle are tested for any residues and the very few that test positive of millions are mostly dairy cows and the dairy is shut down and fined big time.
There are more residues, even illegal ones in European beef than in any here.
Some of those other substances you talk about, that may be added later, are to keep the meats fresh and are added to most processed foods, not only to beef, from cereals to vegetables to most any other out there.
That is waht keeps food fresh while it is produced, packaged, transported, sits in the shelves until you buy it and then in your kitchen until you consume it.
Without much of that, we would not have the food on demand we do today and would not be feeding as many people as we do.
Ask people where there is plenty of food, but no infrastructure to process and transport food without spoiling and people starve because so much food turns bad before it gets to the people that need it.
Lets keep working to make our food the best it can be, but also be glad for what we have done to have what we have today.
We have in the USA one of the most aboundant, varied and clean produce, like few in this world ever had and you think it is not good enough?

I know this was posted a few days ago but I haven't been here since then and I just had to respond.

First of all I wasn't even comparing US food to other countries. If they have issues with their food, that is their citizen's jobs to take care of it (and I am not talking about third world countries where starving is an issue). We very well may have the "best" food on the planet but that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn't be cleaner.

Also, while I agree that some preservatives are a good thing while looking at the food supply from a big picture, the meat produced with these preservatives in this country aren't exactly going to the people who really need it. The growth hormones and antibiotics are not given to the animals that are feeding the poor in Africa. In addition, dyes and many artificial flavors are added not to protect food or make it healthier but to make it LOOK better or taste better. There are numerous studies that have linked those dyes and artificial ingredients to conditions and behavior issues. I do agree that given the choice between starving and eating a food laced with preservatives and artificial ingredients, well I think we all know the answer to that one. That isn't what this discussion was about though.

People love to bring up that horse meat is so tainted and that they don't understand why the French (or whoever) will willingly eat our horsemeat but not our beef, or in this particular topic someone was worried about the poor lions and tigers eating horses that have been wormed or treated with some drug or another. My whole entire point was that the meat that we humans in the United States (or most of us) eat every single day is pumped with more wormer, more drugs, more hormones than probably 99.99% of horses out there. I just thought it was a bit silly for someone to be concerned for the lions and tigers but I bet they don't give a second's thought to what might be in the food they are eating!

Little Bear
Mar. 31, 2007, 12:37 AM
That is so gross... I couldn't do it whether I wanted to or not... I'd rather bury Him...:sadsmile:

xegeba
Mar. 31, 2007, 01:33 AM
It is a very common method of disposing of dead horses in England - I will let you into a little secret - once they are dead, it makes no difference.
can you 'splain your user-name... 'cause I'm not sure if I can trust you... and DO you drive a yellow Test... or are you just a posuer? do you buy your gold chains off ebay? Do people in England actually like you?

xegeba
Mar. 31, 2007, 01:37 AM
Don't burst their bubble! who knew? God bless you... Hung like a Stallion? do your co-workers know what you call yourself?

Alagirl
Mar. 31, 2007, 01:42 AM
who knew? God bless you... Hung like a Stallion? do your co-workers know what you call yourself?


And what, My Dear does that got to do with me?!

xegeba
Mar. 31, 2007, 01:47 AM
And what, My Dear does that got to do with me?! but for some reason COTH has decided that quote stacks are a pain in the butt... and I've decided that trying to figure out how to quote stack is a pain in the butt... there you have it. Do YOU know if HLAS buys his gold chains off ebay?

holmes
Mar. 31, 2007, 07:40 AM
I am too poor for gold chains - I use rope.

Bluey
Mar. 31, 2007, 09:23 AM
I know this was posted a few days ago but I haven't been here since then and I just had to respond.

First of all I wasn't even comparing US food to other countries. If they have issues with their food, that is their citizen's jobs to take care of it (and I am not talking about third world countries where starving is an issue). We very well may have the "best" food on the planet but that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn't be cleaner.

Also, while I agree that some preservatives are a good thing while looking at the food supply from a big picture, the meat produced with these preservatives in this country aren't exactly going to the people who really need it. The growth hormones and antibiotics are not given to the animals that are feeding the poor in Africa. In addition, dyes and many artificial flavors are added not to protect food or make it healthier but to make it LOOK better or taste better. There are numerous studies that have linked those dyes and artificial ingredients to conditions and behavior issues. I do agree that given the choice between starving and eating a food laced with preservatives and artificial ingredients, well I think we all know the answer to that one. That isn't what this discussion was about though.

People love to bring up that horse meat is so tainted and that they don't understand why the French (or whoever) will willingly eat our horsemeat but not our beef, or in this particular topic someone was worried about the poor lions and tigers eating horses that have been wormed or treated with some drug or another. My whole entire point was that the meat that we humans in the United States (or most of us) eat every single day is pumped with more wormer, more drugs, more hormones than probably 99.99% of horses out there. I just thought it was a bit silly for someone to be concerned for the lions and tigers but I bet they don't give a second's thought to what might be in the food they are eating!

There was a page somewhere called "Mythbusters" that explained much of the misconceptions you and many in the press keep repeating as facts.

There is a minimum of preservatives in food. It is there to protect the food from spoiling.
That food that has to be handled much and stored for some time needs to be protected from possible contamination and spoiling should make sense to anyone.

The only way you could get food without it is for all to go back to raising our own food.
First, not many people would like to spend their time on that, because it is time and energy consuming, plus requires an infrastructure today's civilization doesn't has, where each one lives on their few acres and raises their own food and animals and does it well and is productive enough to have sufficient to feed a family.

The reason we have the civilization we have is because some raise produce for all, so others can do other with their lives.

As for antibiotics and hormones in beef, the reason you have heard about it is because it was used by the Europan Common Moarket as a trade barrier, with no science behind it whatsoever.
The USA fought that in the international tribunal and last year, after ten years "studying" the issue, those things take long, the tribunal ruled those claims false.
There are more hormones by thousands % more produced by people's own bodies every day than you will find in your meat.
Meat is inspected and tested and if any residues are found, the sky fell on someone, because the fines are serios and there is jail time for someone.

All that raise beef commercially keep records and won't give anything that will show up, or will withhold that animal for the time necessary to clear it's system.
Most of today's animal products have a very short withdrawal time, just because of that.

Now, when you get into a farmer down the road selling you what they raise, some recent studies were showing that their produce was considerably more contaminated than when commercially produced and that people that get sick from that blame it on "a bug going around".
Makes sense, since they don't have the commercial produce washes and protocols to keep food clean, as commercial operations have.
That is one reason our supermarkets will rarely sell produce from small local farmers, because they can't provide the consistency, volume AND SAFETY those stores demand.

A local farmer had a contract for carrots with a big company and had to jump thru many loops to get his produce accepted.
He tried to sell directly to the stores and no one would touch it off his field, their liability from that too large to take any chances.

As you can see, there is so much more than it seems to that handful of produce you so blissfully buy every time you go to the grocery store, that to say "it is full of chemicals" or any other such innane proclamation is really silly, only good for a scaremonger's article here and there, that no one really should pay attention to.

Here is one of many articles about this:

---"Food science was betrayed by a longtime friend when the new edition of Joy of Cooking by Irma S. Rombauer and Marion Rombauer Becker was published by Plume in December 1997," said the column's author, Christine M. Bruhn, Ph.D.,director, Center for Consumer Research, University of California at Davis.

The new Joy of Cooking includes the following scientific in accuracies and modern myths (corrections provided by Bruhn underneath):


Joy: Food additives lower the nutritive value of food and are used to mask cosmetic defects.
Fact: Food additives are used to improve nutritive value (through fortification), lower fat content, maintain freshness, reduce food spoilage, or enhance food texture, flavor, or color. Nutritive value is not determined by the number of additives.
Joy: Common food allergens include chicken and citrus fruits.
Fact: On the contrary, these foods rarely generate allergic reactions, unlike peanuts and eggs, which were omitted from Joy of Cooking's list of common food allergens.

Joy: Pesticide residues on fruit are at unacceptable and hazardous levels.
Fact: The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) reports that pesticide residues on infant and adult foods are almost always well below tolerance levels. In its 1996 Total Diet Study, in which it analyzed fruits and other foods purchased from supermarkets, the FDA found no residues in infant or adult foods over levels allowed by the FDA or Environmental Protection Agency.

Joy: Organic produce is pesticide-free.
Fact: According to unofficial national organic standards, organic farmers can use naturally-occurring pesticides, such as sulfur, on produce. In fact, most organic farmers use such pesticides.

Joy: Organic produce does not need to be washed.
Fact: All produce is susceptible to dirt, insects, and harmful microorganisms;thus, all fruits and vegetables, regardless of growing method, should be washed well before eating.

Joy: Non-organic produce should be washed with water and a few drops of pure soap.
Fact: Washing food with soap or detergents is not recommended by the FDA or U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) because little is known about the health effects of eating soap or detergent residues. Moreover, it is not known if soap is effective in ridding pesticide residues from produce.

Joy: Modern animal production has reduced the quality and safety of meat and poultry.
Fact: Raw animal foods have always had the potential to contain pathogenic bacteria, regardless of where or when the animals were raised.

Joy: It is okay to use raw eggs in no-cook recipes.
Fact: It is not safe to use raw eggs in any recipe that does not include thorough cooking.

Joy: A cooking temperature of 155 F is high enough to kill Escherchia coli O157:H7 in ground beef.
Fact: A cooking temperature of 155 F may kill E. coli O157:H7 depending on the duration this temperature is held and on the bacteria levels in the beef. However, for a greater margin of safety, the USDA and FDA recommend a cooking temperature of 160 F.

Joy: Buying top-grade beef, grinding it to order, or home grinding it can reduce the risk of E. coli O157:H7 contamination.
Fact: No studies support these recommendations, and the opportunity for cross-contamination increases markedly with home grinding."---

There are many myths going around. We have to be smart enough to know the difference.

The same applies to "all those chemicals in horses".;)

Ware Whip!
Mar. 31, 2007, 03:38 PM
I would just like to post how our Hunt does this, since there seem's to be a lot of wild idea's :) .

The horse is HD, then the meat is cooked, our hound's do not do BARF
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
Nor do any of the neighboring Hunt's kennels that I have heard of.

It is a tradition, to give your horse to the hounds. It is not for everyone.
But for some Hunter's to give a horse that loved to hunt, it is giving back.

Ware Whip!

idlemoon
Mar. 31, 2007, 03:49 PM
I had a horse in my care who fell over dead in the pasture in FL. My user-name is a tribute to him. We suspected an aneurism (sp?), but no necropsy was done. He was picked up and sent to the widlife park. He was a grey.

I have had 2 horses sent to a rendering plant. One was a colic with euthanasia, and the second was another suspected aneurism, we just found her deceased in the pasture. I am an organ donor, but I do not know if I could fathom my horse being dissected into parts for medical study. I have had to be apart of necropsies, and bodies are then treated as parts. Though it is a shell of what once my best friend, but I feel there has to be a 'respect' for the horse that once was.

I am very impressed with this discussion. There is no right or wrong answer with this subject. I am glad we can have this conversation as adults. lisa

R D Lite
Mar. 31, 2007, 04:31 PM
Maybe this is too anthropomorphic of me, but I feel very strongly, if at all possible, to be with them - human, dog, cat, horse, whatever - when they pass on. I don't know what happens at the other end. I just don't want them to leave here alone. I want the last words to be of comfort and love.

I am right there with you. I know not everyone feels they can be there, but I could never not be there. I am so glad I stayed with Reuben, even though it was definitely one of the toughest things I've ever done. I don't have to wonder how it was for him at the end, or wonder if he was afraid, or any of that. I was there, it was fast, he wasn't scared, and I like to think that a big part of the reason he was comfortable was because I was right there petting him, telling him he was a good boy, and stuffing him full of peppermint snacks. He had been sick for a long time--a year--and we went all that way together, through the ups and downs of his illness, and it only seemed right to see him through until the end.

I volunteer at this clinic; I know they usually put horses down behind the barn, out of sight of the public. Reuben was not put down there, as there were already two bodies from earlier in the day. I know that as soon as I left, they pulled his body over there with a Bobcat to wait for the truck to come pick it up, but I really don't care, because by then he was gone. I appreciate that they were sensitive to my feelings--and to his--while he was alive. Afterwards, I honestly can't say I care what happened to his remains. I think part of the reason I feel so certain about this is that I was there when he died, and I saw how incredibly obvious it is at the moment they pass, how clear and certain it was that what was left was not my horse.

stuge
Mar. 31, 2007, 09:16 PM
There is a minimum of preservatives in food. It is there to protect the food from spoiling.
That food that has to be handled much and stored for some time needs to be protected from possible contamination and spoiling should make sense to anyone.

The only way you could get food without it is for all to go back to raising our own food. First, not many people would like to spend their time on that, because it is time and energy consuming, plus requires an infrastructure today's civilization doesn't has, where each one lives on their few acres and raises their own food and animals and does it well and is productive enough to have sufficient to feed a family.

The reason we have the civilization we have is because some raise produce for all, so others can do other with their lives.

As for antibiotics and hormones in beef, the reason you have heard about it is because it was used by the Europan Common Moarket as a trade barrier, with no science behind it whatsoever. The USA fought that in the international tribunal and last year, after ten years "studying" the issue, those things take long, the tribunal ruled those claims false.
There are more hormones by thousands % more produced by people's own bodies every day than you will find in your meat.
Meat is inspected and tested and if any residues are found, the sky fell on someone, because the fines are serios and there is jail time for someone.

All that raise beef commercially keep records and won't give anything that will show up, or will withhold that animal for the time necessary to clear it's system. Most of today's animal products have a very short withdrawal time, just because of that.

As you can see, there is so much more than it seems to that handful of produce you so blissfully buy every time you go to the grocery store, that to say "it is full of chemicals" or any other such innane proclamation is really silly, only good for a scaremonger's article here and there, that no one really should pay attention to.


First off, I don't believe I ever said our food was "full of chemicals". Please don't put words into my mouth. It is common knowledge though, that regular meat is pumped regularly with growth hormones and antibiotics. Horses typically are not. And for the record, I don't buy all organic but I do read labels and there are several preservatives and artificial ingredients that I do try to stay away from.

Second, of course we could produce food commercially without using antibiotics, hormones, etc. There are many growing, thriving, huge companies making very good business out of organic and all-natural products. So I don't understand your arguement there. The more people buy all-natural and organic, the more companies will offer products and the more cost effective it will be.

Third, there is "minimal" preservatives in SOME foods. There is most certainly a good bit of preservatives in many other foods. Perhaps my level of "minimal" and yours is very different.

Fourth, there is science backing up the effects of some of the extra "stuff" that is put in our food. I agree that the jury is still out there for both sides. I want them to prove that it is safe. I don't want to wait until they prove that it isn't safe so I am in agreement with the Europeans there. They seem to be doing just fine without American meat (well besides the horsemeat) and without adding all the extra "stuff". And I am sorry, but there is no way they can prove what the long term effects are going to be on humans 20, 30, 40 or more years on down the road when a product has only been out 10 years or less. Yes there are safeguards and probably 90% of whats out there is completely safe but every once in a while they do withdraw items from the market for health and safety reasons. That proves that the approval and monitering systems are not 100%. That is enough for me. If everyone else wants to be guinea pigs, so be it.

But this is all beside the point. I'm not up for a debate on whether or not organic and natural foods are better for you. People need to do that research on their own and I do not consider myself a scaremonger for making people aware of it. My only point is that it is silly for people to be concerned about what the lions, tigers, and French are eating in the horsemeat when they don't give a second's thought of all the stuff, crap, whatever you want to call it into their own meat.

Bluey
Apr. 1, 2007, 12:13 AM
"Organic" cattle are those that didn't get sick, so they didn't get medicines.
The ones that got sick and had medication are supposed to be kept marked or in a different group and not sell as "organic".
It would not be compassionate not to treat a sick one, just so he either makes it and can be sold as "organic" or, sorry, it died.:no:
People get medications when they get sick also.
Medicines go out of cattle's system in time, just as in people.

"Organic" is basically a different management protocol, the cattle the same in the same place and under the same conditions, with a few tweaks here and there, to fulfill the "organic" designation.
Those tweaks don't give you a different meat, because those treated ones, by the time they are slaughtered are just as clean by law, tested and passed inspection.
I guarantee you that you could not test and find any more or less residues in either meat, be it called organic or not.

asb_own_me
Apr. 1, 2007, 10:14 AM
Afterwards, I honestly can't say I care what happened to his remains. I think part of the reason I feel so certain about this is that I was there when he died, and I saw how incredibly obvious it is at the moment they pass, how clear and certain it was that what was left was not my horse.

I hope to remember this post when the time comes for my mare... Thank you.

Horsecrazy27
Apr. 1, 2007, 12:02 PM
I hope to remember this post when the time comes for my mare... Thank you.

Well wrote and well recieved!

Miss_Cricket
Apr. 1, 2007, 12:27 PM
I would have no problem with the lion food idea, but my requirement would be that my husband shoot them, not a stranger. And, it would have to be at home with us then taking the body immediately to the zoo. This way, I would know that it was done quickly and with one shot. But, that said, it will most likely be a proper grave for my oldest girl in her fav. sunny spot and for my other one, it will be cremation as this would be something she would consider "proper".

5
Apr. 1, 2007, 03:26 PM
If you can't spend the 300$ or so to have your horse put down and taken away then you really should not own one. You have to save for the good and the bad.

They call it the sport of kings for a reason.

Buffyblue
Apr. 1, 2007, 03:31 PM
I prefer not to have my horse eaten by anything, including lions and tigers. Eww. What a thought.

3fatponies
Apr. 1, 2007, 04:13 PM
When my childhood horse passed, I had him cremated and spread his ashes in the garden over the course of a few years(first he lived on the porch until gardening season, where both hubby and I would call the bucket by his name when we moved it :lol: ). They filled a very heavy 5 gallon bucket. And yep, there were chunks of bone in there. His companion I sent to the renderer, but I had him cremated.

I wasn't upset about handling the ashes. As another poster noted, having been there when he was put down, I knew he was gone. The ashes were just what was left--kind of like lumpy bonemeal, so I planted lots of them the following fall with tulips.

It cost me about $800 and was strictly about me. He was dead--where his body went didn't really matter to him. Had I not been able to afford that option, then he would have gone to the renderer as well and I would have been foolish to feel guilty. Cremation of an animal that size is a luxury, so if you can't afford it, don't beat yourself up about it. What matters in the end is how you treated the animal when he was alive. :)