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Sabine
Mar. 15, 2007, 12:20 AM
Hello all fans of Catherine-
got a message this morning that she is not coming to the dressage affaire in Ohio (Pam Goodrich is taking her place) but going to s'Hertsogenbusch...(sp?) final qualifier for the World Cup- if she does well there with Maximus - she will be coming to Vegas....:):):)

let's keep our fingers and toes crossed for her- she would certainly be a great addition to our american delegation.....

(and yes although I am German by birth- I have an american passport and consider myself also American...:)

STF
Mar. 15, 2007, 12:57 AM
GOOOOOOOOOOO Catherine!!!! Good luck to her and Maximus!!!!

MEP
Mar. 15, 2007, 08:22 AM
I'd just love to have a chance to watch her ride in LV. Keeping everything crossed for her.

magnum
Mar. 15, 2007, 11:26 AM
Our loss in missing her ... but glad she's engaged in competitive activities to further her goals.

Magnum

OnCue
Mar. 15, 2007, 11:43 AM
When is the qualifier? Will you post the results? I'd love to see her in Vegas!

HopeHill
Mar. 15, 2007, 12:06 PM
Can't help but say, I'm a bit disapointed, I applied to ride with her at Equine Affaire and was at least looking forward to watching her instruct.

But.... GOOOOOO Catherine, be way more fun to see her at the World Cup :D

magdelene
Mar. 15, 2007, 01:12 PM
I interview your Catherine Haddad last week and ask about her chance to go to the World Cup. It is not usual that a new rider in the scene gets to qualify in Europa. The competition is VERY difficult here. The top twelve in the western liga are: Imke Schellekens Bartels, Isabell Werth, Edward Gal, Kyra Kyrlkund, Laurens Van Lieren, Andreas Helgstrand, Tinne Wilhelmson, Jan Brink, Louise Nathhorst, Marlies Van Baalen, Ellen Schulten Baumer and Catherine Haddad. The order is not correct.

More good riders will show in s'Hertogenbosch.

Mrs. Haddad has very funny humour! She told me much about her horse and her freestyle and the training with Zeilinger. I saw the freestyle in Goeteborg. It is dramatic. You can be very pleased to see this in Las Vegas.

She tell me that she thinks the World Cup has saved dressage because the freestyle is good for spectators. She writes her freestyle for the people, not just for the judges. This is evidently and she earns much applause.

A very charming lady who is good to speak for the sport and to represent your country!

GrandPrixNYFL1
Mar. 15, 2007, 05:12 PM
I don't think anyone should get too excited about C Haddad making the team just yet... If the selection trials at Gladstone taught us anything last year, its that no rider should count their eggs before they hatch. I personally don't see her on a team. Steffen, Tuny, Guenter, Leslie etc..... We'll see

MEP
Mar. 15, 2007, 05:32 PM
I don't think anyone should get too excited about C Haddad making the team just yet... If the selection trials at Gladstone taught us anything last year, its that no rider should count their eggs before they hatch. I personally don't see her on a team. Steffen, Tuny, Guenter, Leslie etc..... We'll see

This isn't a team selection situation: They will go based on qualifying points.

Dressagegroom
Mar. 15, 2007, 06:14 PM
Good Luck to Catherine and Maximus!
Does anyone know how it works for her to qualify in Europe to represent the USA? I thought the top two US riders from the League Finals in Burbank, CA go to the world cup?

Defeinerstar
Mar. 15, 2007, 09:58 PM
Some of the big guns are showing this weekend. Catharine should really be showing in Burbank if she wants to be in the thick of things. Very exciting.:eek:

MEP
Mar. 15, 2007, 11:16 PM
GDoes anyone know how it works for her to qualify in Europe to represent the USA? I thought the top two US riders from the League Finals in Burbank, CA go to the world cup?

I think they get points that they can apply to their home league. The individuals qualifying with the highest points then get to go.

Sabine
Mar. 16, 2007, 12:07 AM
Some of the big guns are showing this weekend. Catharine should really be showing in Burbank if she wants to be in the thick of things. Very exciting.:eek:

it's not this weekend- it's end of March and yeah- right- you think they will fly her over to the West Coast for a little CDI?? come on...thank god the world cup works differently...there are points- for a reason!

Editted to add: LA CDI is little compared to s'Hertsogenbusch!!! Believe me!

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 01:51 AM
There is a show this weekend! In the Del Mar Area. You dont think that the usual players will be there. Not to mention there are allot of out of towners here in CA. getting ready for Burbank. Everyone else flys all over to show why not Catherine? Thats when the real stress of showing takes hold. I really dont think she is quite there yet. I hope she does well in Europe.

Sabine
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:07 AM
There is a show this weekend! In the Del Mar Area. You dont think that the usual players will be there. Not to mention there are allot of out of towners here in CA. getting ready for Burbank. Everyone else flys all over to show why not Catherine? Thats when the real stress of showing takes hold. I really dont think she is quite there yet. I hope she does well in Europe.

wow- what a nonpatriotic reply...she is American- she is very good and she is sponsored by Americans...be very careful what you say.
Spring Fling (Del Mar) is small compared to Festival of the Horse ( Burbank the official qualifier) although a lovely and great show-.

Have you brought a horse from Germany to the West Coast ??....she will come once she knows she has made it...that's all I can say.

editted to add:

watch the results on www.indoorbrabant.nl
she will be there competing on 3/23 to 3/25 and the horse would be shipped on 4/14...if it happens...

magdelene
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:25 AM
American patriots are very good! I look in my notes from the interview last week with your Mrs. Haddad. We Germans are very impressed for a young, single woman to come to our country with no money, make business, learn the language and become a success. I asked her "How could you take such risks? Where do you find courage."

She said: "I have no need to find courage. I was born with it. I am an American. And in my country we are raised to believe that we can achieve our dreams. I saw no risk in moving to Germany. I followed my dreams. I'm American. This is what we do."

We admire your people for this.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:30 AM
So two of our team members are German. And the coach is German! I dont think I am Un -patriotic. I think you are getting a little ahead of yourself. What major competions has she won? The riders she is showing against in Europe have done much better than her. I hope she does well I just dont think she is at the level of our other American team members quite yet.
Actually I do have a horse here that is from Germany.

magdelene
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:55 AM
Jan Brink is rank 12 in Europa. Catherine Haddad is 11.

GrandPrixNYFL1
Mar. 16, 2007, 08:45 AM
I totally agree with Defeinerstar. Catherine is doing well however, we have riders do better here in the states. Its the classic case of the fact that it is more difficult to qualify for an American Team outside of the states. Also, I was not too impressed with the way she conducted herself at WEG. She and her American sponsors attended all of the team dinners. I found her to be very outspoken and rude. Especially when she was dealing with Leslie Morse. She was in a way acting like it was Leslie's fault that she wasn't on the team. Now I know we've all been through the Leslie talks but, in this case Catherine was totally in the wrong. I will be amazed if she does make it to the World Cup. We have some real experienced team riders here doing super well. I guess we'll all see..... Sabine that reply from Defeinerstar was not at all non-pratriotic! It wasn't even a rude comment. Further it is totally 'American' to voice ones oppinion! Get over it

Dressagegroom
Mar. 16, 2007, 08:59 AM
I think they get points that they can apply to their home league. The individuals qualifying with the highest points then get to go.

I still don't quite get it, last year the top two riders of the US League Finals (Tuny and Leslie) qualified to compete at the World Cup.

How does Catherine qualify to get to the World Cup and represent the USA by getting points in Europe without competing against the top US riders? That would not be fair to the US riders going for a spot.

retrofit
Mar. 16, 2007, 09:49 AM
Thank you magdelene for your insights into CH. I love hearing the 'real scoop' about riders. I have always liked her interviews & articles and her outspoken, down-to-earth way of writing. I also admire her riding style. I hope she does another clinic tour this year - I missed it last year (horsie injury).

Elliot
Mar. 16, 2007, 09:55 AM
This is the last time it will work this way, but in 2007 there are five leagues, U.S, Canada, Central Europe, Western Europe and Pacific. Pacific, which includes Australia, Canada and Central Europe all get one rider. The U.S. gets 2 and W.Europe gets 8.

The U.S. determines the riders with the League Final, this year in Burbank. Top 2 definitely go. The W.E. League determines their 8 with by adding the scores together from 5 qualifiers. I believe they can do 6 and drop one score. s'Hertogenbosch is their League Final, but it's really just the last qualifier. But the top 8 are cumulative, not based on how they do at the last qualifier.

So if you're counting, that's 13 spots accounted for. There are five remaining wild cards. The FEI gives out the wild cards and the national federations apply for them. The U.S. will almost definitely get one wild card and might get a second because we're the host nation, although no nation is supposed to have more than 3 riders.

So Catherine is basically hoping for a wild card. And she has a good shot at getting one.

Sabine
Mar. 16, 2007, 10:15 AM
I totally agree with Defeinerstar. Catherine is doing well however, we have riders do better here in the states. Its the classic case of the fact that it is more difficult to qualify for an American Team outside of the states. Also, I was not too impressed with the way she conducted herself at WEG. She and her American sponsors attended all of the team dinners. I found her to be very outspoken and rude. Especially when she was dealing with Leslie Morse. She was in a way acting like it was Leslie's fault that she wasn't on the team. Now I know we've all been through the Leslie talks but, in this case Catherine was totally in the wrong. I will be amazed if she does make it to the World Cup. We have some real experienced team riders here doing super well. I guess we'll all see..... Sabine that reply from Defeinerstar was not at all non-pratriotic! It wasn't even a rude comment. Further it is totally 'American' to voice ones oppinion! Get over it


I am over it...no worries...but please tell me - who here in the States RIGHT NOW has a horse that is going markedly better....?? The ones that come to mind are Brentina and Floriano. Both are not definites..they haven't competed in a while and are either being saved or coming back from injury. Same with Morse. Tuny is doing great but not hugely greater than Catherine and that in the States- rather than in Europe. So who are the great horses we have....?

GrandPrixNYFL1
Mar. 16, 2007, 11:04 AM
Sure Sabine It'll be my pleasure to educate you. First Steffen in CA has two horses that are receiving much higher marks in competition and winning (CDI)! Further, Tuny, Courtney, and Guenter are posting higher marks then Catherine in the Grand Prix and Freestyle. She just simply isn't getting the scores in the Grand Prix like our other American riders. Just take a look at the scores...... Sometimes its better to have your facts straight before you speak.

YoungFilly
Mar. 16, 2007, 11:18 AM
Sure Sabine It'll be my pleasure to educate you. First Steffen in CA has two horses that are receiving much higher marks in competition and winning (CDI)! Further, Tuny, Courtney, and Guenter are posting higher marks then Catherine in the Grand Prix and Freestyle. She just simply isn't getting the scores in the Grand Prix like our other American riders. Just take a look at the scores...... Sometimes its better to have your facts straight before you speak.

Wow, you must be pretty special to come on here and act like you know it all. You sure put Sabine in her place! :no:

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 11:36 AM
Hello, Its about ones long History of showing, doing well, charisma. Teamwork, and the most important thing politics! Everyone has been to a show where none of the key players are at! Its dull. Its the riders that you can here a pin drop when they come into the ring that will be at the World Cup! Those who have a chemistry with the Audience. And of course a great ride doesnt hurt. I think the way Catherine treated Leslie might just come back to bite her on the haunches!

slc2
Mar. 16, 2007, 12:14 PM
Sabine isn't getting educated, she's getting misinformed. My sincerest apologies to the poster who wrote that, but you're wrong.

When scores in America are even close to the equivalent of scores in Europe, that might be a partly accurate statement. Til then, it is not - not in any way.

Scores at those levels are still, NOT, completely exactly, in all cases, the equivalent of scores earned in Europe. You are saying apples and oranges are equal - they're not. That is why people travel to Europe, to get in the swim with the big fish, to have the judges see them. It's a different level of competition.

America is getting better all the time, and specific CLASSES at specific shows are more comparable to Europe, but still not exactly the same. Even though our team goes over there and competes at selected smaller shows (ALWAYS) to prepare before an olympics or a worlds, they STILL do not score as high there as they do here, on average. The judges are different, and the classes are different. When European judges are brought over here, even the exact same judges don't score the same, because the people in the classes are different and the expectations are different; they may even be pressured to score higher here, that has been implied at times. In Europe, they don't have to respond to that kind of pressure.

Nor are scores in ALL European shows the same. One has to have more indepth knowledge of each show and judge, and who showed up, to make any conclusions about how significant a particular score was.

I know people in America, even, who pick and choose which show to go to so they place as high as possible. I know people who have won tons of awards by picking small recognized shows where they know no one else will be in their class. That sort of 'small tour' is in Europe too, so you have to know which show you are talking about and what sort of show it is where the score was earned.

Haddad is doing well, and has for many years. She is smart - very smart. She is doing what she needs to do to hop up. You would have to look very far to find anyone more focused and more intelligent in where she spends her energy. She is very organized and very astute and that is a big part of success.

Her scores need to come up more, to put her in the same bucket with the top 5 riders in the world. They aren't high enough for that yet, but they very well may get there - how long that takes depends on a lot of things, not just her riding - her horses, how much exposure she gets to the European judges, chiefly.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 01:41 PM
You are right! And the USA still must send those who have been in the Big Game and gotten the scores! And the Sponsers need crowd pleasers.

GrandPrixNYFL1
Mar. 16, 2007, 01:55 PM
Sorry Youngfilly, I may be new to the BB but I have been doing dressage for years! Further, I am just adding my oppinions. If you disagree with them state your own.
Defeinerstar I think you're 100% correct. What goes around comes back around!
SLC2 I understand and respect your oppinion. Meanwhile, CDI (international) scores are the same whether they are held in Noth America, South America, Europe etc. There are only so many international judges. Often you'll find our judging panels here in the states are the same or similiar to the panels we are seeing at the larger European CDIs. Her scores when compared on paper are lower in general then the scores posting here in the states for our top riders. Some people believe that it is actually easier to gain scores in Europe. As European judges are used to rewarding rides with much higher scores. In a sense it doesn't take them out of their comfort zone. Where as sometimes in the states we spook at the thought of an 80% for a Grand Prix test. So there is a different school of thought then your own. I am only looking at what I see on paper and score check.

slc2
Mar. 16, 2007, 01:57 PM
You're both totally missing what I am saying. I don't care if you don't agree, but for heaven's sake, at least read what i wrote.

Sabine
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:07 PM
Sure Sabine It'll be my pleasure to educate you. First Steffen in CA has two horses that are receiving much higher marks in competition and winning (CDI)! Further, Tuny, Courtney, and Guenter are posting higher marks then Catherine in the Grand Prix and Freestyle. She just simply isn't getting the scores in the Grand Prix like our other American riders. Just take a look at the scores...... Sometimes its better to have your facts straight before you speak.

I am in CA and I see Steffen and Gunter- anytime they show- I think I know quite well what they have currently going....
Tuny and Courtney being on the other coast I am not as familiar with but I know their scores......

and I tend to believe that the european Big Tour is not comparable to the US Big Tour....now go ahead and have a fit! ;)

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:19 PM
Well I think everyone is waiting to see how Leslie does personally! She has the best two Horses in the Country both which I hear are doing super. You can hear a pin Drop.

GrandPrixNYFL1
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:32 PM
Sabine, I'm not going to have a fit. That is your oppinion. However, if you have checked out the scores you would know CH are not as high as the scores in the states. You are sadly mistaken if you think an 8 in the USA is a 6 in Europe. A 6 is a 6 any where according to FEI rules. I also think Leslie may add herself to the list of big players! She had a fantastic ride at the last World Cup. I would love to see Kingston in the running. Especially after all the bull that followed WEG.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 02:38 PM
Thats correct! Her scores arent there she needs to be in the top 6 not 11th. The kind of ride leslie gave in the last World Cup On Kingston........which frankly I think was the best American ride at the World Cup. Is the kind of riding and Charisma our Team needs. I wish Catharine well but she isnt there yet.

kkj
Mar. 16, 2007, 03:24 PM
The kind of ride leslie gave in the last World Cup On Kingston........which frankly I think was the best American ride at the World Cup. Is the kind of riding and Charisma our Team needs.


I was hoping maybe you were kidding ... but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I think you are talking about the last World Cup in Vegas right? Not the last World Cup? Honestly you think Kingston was better than Brentinna? I could understand the argument for Kennedy maybe? I mean reasonable people can differ but I don't think there are too many with your high esteem of Kingston.

I am with those that hold the scoring is a little tougher in Europe.

Dressagegroom
Mar. 16, 2007, 03:31 PM
Well I think everyone is waiting to see how Leslie does personally! She has the best two Horses in the Country both which I hear are doing super. You can hear a pin Drop.

I don't think 'everyone' is waiting, clearly you are a Leslie fan and are entitled to your opinion but don't make false claims, she is now (and always has been as far as I know) ranked below Steffen, Gunter and Debbie regarless of which of her 'two best horses in the country' she competes with.

Sabine
Mar. 16, 2007, 03:32 PM
here are the standings as of right now:

http://www.feiworldcup.org/PDFS/D_06_WC_weu_67.pdf

SChulten-Baumer recently lost her horse. So Catherine is in effect at 10th place. I think she can make it. And in the end- we'll all see anyway....:)

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 04:02 PM
Yes, Kingston in Vegas thats what we where talking about. Brenttina was pretty.. and the way she has always looked to me Push button! Like she is being held together. Still an amazing mare. Kingston and Maximus there is no comparison. Tip-Top and Maximus there is no comparison.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 04:18 PM
I don't think 'everyone' is waiting, clearly you are a Leslie fan and are entitled to your opinion but don't make false claims, she is now (and always has been as far as I know) ranked below Steffen, Gunter and Debbie regarless of which of her 'two best horses in the country' she competes with.

Well, The sky is the limit! I am just saying what I have heard. I think they are all great. I just dont think Catherine is there yet.

Coreene
Mar. 16, 2007, 04:43 PM
I don't think 'everyone' is waitingAmen.

And that's my polite response. :lol:

OnCue
Mar. 16, 2007, 06:28 PM
*snort*

Defeinerstar
Mar. 16, 2007, 10:33 PM
Love to see you all a Twitter!

pinecone
Mar. 17, 2007, 09:29 AM
I think GrandPrixNYFL1 makes some good points, as does slc. We don't have to agree entirely all of the time, it's still nice to see some different perspectives and new faces.

siegi b.
Mar. 17, 2007, 09:52 AM
GrandPrix's logic leaves something to be desired.....

For example "Meanwhile, CDI (international) scores are the same whether they are held in Noth America, South America, Europe etc. There are only so many international judges. Often you'll find our judging panels here in the states are the same or similiar to the panels we are seeing at the larger European CDIs. Her scores when compared on paper are lower in general then the scores posting here in the states for our top riders. Some people believe that it is actually easier to gain scores in Europe. As European judges are used to rewarding rides with much higher scores. In a sense it doesn't take them out of their comfort zone."

So on one hand she says that the scores in Europe and the US are the same because there are only so many international judges. On the other hand she says that European judges are used to rewarding higher scores...?????

Which is it?

magdelene
Mar. 17, 2007, 02:18 PM
The FEI records all international results. Your Catherine Haddad is ranked third in the world for the US riders. Update results are online at www.horsesport.org.

How do you say it? Mrs. Haddad "has arrive" in your top ranked riders?

Dressagegroom
Mar. 17, 2007, 03:06 PM
The FEI records all international results. Your Catherine Haddad is ranked third in the world for the US riders. Update results are online at www.horsesport.org.

How do you say it? Mrs. Haddad "has arrive" in your top ranked riders?

Thanks for the link. She is clearly doing a great job in the world rankings, she is extremely consistent. However keep in mind this thread is about the World Cup and the final placings are based only on the Freestyle result, the world rankings are weighted more heavily to the Grand Prix.....here are some more statistics -

According to Catherines website results she is averaging about 68% in Grand Prix and 71% in Grand Prix Freestyle (from CDI results): http://www.internationaldressage.com/competition_results.php

According to the USEF current rankings for the US League final for the world cup that would put her in 6th or 7th place with an average for her top 2 scores (GP and GPFS combined) of around the 70.5% mark:

Below are the current US rankings, I believe 6 and 7 are excluded as they did not submit entry for the League Final, Catherine would be one of these two.

PLACING NAME HORSE Top 2 Shows -
Average
1 Steffen Peters Floriano 77.265
2 Guenter Seidel Aragon 73.606
3 Leslie Morse Tip Top 962 73.213
4 Arlene Page Wild One 73.023
5 Courtney King Idocus 71.383
8 Michael Barisone Neruda 68.940

magdelene
Mar. 17, 2007, 03:24 PM
Thanking you to inform me of your national standings. We only have access to results earned at international shows. This means CDI*** and CDI-W.

More results for individual horses can be found at www.wbfsh.org. According to resultat from international shows, Maximus is rank 10 in the world, the highest for American horses. These scores were earned since October 2006. So they are aktuell.

fiona
Mar. 17, 2007, 03:28 PM
PLACING NAME HORSE Top 2 Shows -
Average
1 Steffen Peters Floriano 77.265

Obviously i am completely biased but can i just say Floriano totally rocks!

Dressagegroom
Mar. 17, 2007, 03:37 PM
Thanking you to inform me of your national standings. We only have access to results earned at international shows. This means CDI*** and CDI-W.
.

The USEF national rankings are only from CDI's and are determined to establish placings for the World Cup qualifier for US riders.

Elliot
Mar. 17, 2007, 05:00 PM
On the other hand, when Catherine Haddad actually competed against members of the U.S. team last summer at Verden, she beat both Tuny Page on Wild One and Leslie Morse on Tip Top. That's about as actual as you get. And Catherine's scores have consistently risen since then.

Catherine is out there riding against Jan Brink, Isabell Werth, Kyra Kyrklund and other megastars of Europe. Is she winning? No. Would she beat our very top riders like Steffen and Floriano? No. But I think it's too bad to say she hasn't truly arrived because her CDI-W scores against the best riders in Europe at the biggest shows are lower than the scores of riders who only compete at CDIs in the U.S., and she has beaten these riders in head-to-head competition.

shadowdancer
Mar. 17, 2007, 05:17 PM
Sorry Dressagegroom, the US League Final rankings include scores from Gladstone, June 2006. This was not an international competition, it was the US Selection Trials for Aachen. The scores were unbelievably high there.

And the scores in this ranking are only the highest two scores received over a long period.

The FEI World Ranking List is the most accurate measure of current success.

I think a lot of Americans are still identifying with the riders from your team at Aachen last August. That competition was SEVEN MONTHS ago. At least two, possibly three of those horses are no longer competing.

The only rider since Aachen who has been consistently earning scores internationally is Haddad. I believe she was ranked somewhere near number 50 in the world last summer. She has moved up to around 40.

Your Grand Prix girl from NY/FL (or guy since the field gets pretty narrow by his comments from Aachen...welcome to the board, tread lightly) needs to update his or her information. Haddad has not been standing still this winter.

And by the way, Mr. or Ms. Grand Prix, is it wise to disrespect the sponsors of any rider on any team? Hmmmm.... Don't see much of that on the Continent.

Dressagegroom
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:13 PM
Sorry Dressagegroom, the US League Final rankings include scores from Gladstone, June 2006. This was not an international competition, it was the US Selection Trials for Aachen. The scores were unbelievably high there.

Thanks shadowdancer, that is a good point.

Although in looking at Catherine's results in Europe and even taking into account the possibility that the judging is tougher (another topic altogether) I can't help but wonder if she would match up to the top US contenders for the World Cup. ...I have never seen her Freestyle so cannot comment on it but if she is consistently getting 68-69% in the Grand Prix and 71-72% in the Freestyle then she is missing some marks, most top riders can increase their Grand Prix score by 5+% in the Kur, and the World Cup is all about the Kur.

siegi b.
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:22 PM
Here we go again....

why are we comparing Ms. Haddad's AVERAGE scores to the US riders' TOP 2 scores?

Don't say you're giving statistics when they're anything but...

ridgeback
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:25 PM
It appears many of you have forgetten when Catherine competed against Leslie and Tuny in Germany before the WEG....lets see were they even close to her placements in I think 3 shows hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NOOOOOOOOOOO. I think some people on this list have an agenda!!!!!!

shadowdancer
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:30 PM
Fortunately, the FEI controls the wildcard choices. So agendas won't make a big difference if Haddad holds her position in the league at Den Bosch. The FEI will only consider results, not opinions.

ridgeback
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:38 PM
http://www.usef.org/documents/international/rankingsGrandPrix.pdf

1) Steffen
2) Debbie
3) Guenter
4) Arlene
5) Catherine Haddad
6)Courtney
7) George
*
*
10) Leslie

ridgeback
Mar. 17, 2007, 06:51 PM
To the people on this list saying that Catherine was so horrible to Leslie if you think she started that whole press war on Leslie I suggest you look at other team members who have much more power and money then she does!! I've known Catherine for 20+ years and as someone else pointed out she's extremely smart and if she had a problem with any teammate I can promise you wouldn't know about it. This dressage world is the most back biting lieing bunch of people I've ever run into. I never would have thought I'd say the hunter/jumper people are saints compared to the dressage world but they are. Why can't you just be happy that you have an American rider that is doing well in Europe, for God sake she hasn't had Maximus at the GP level for long. She is every bit as good as the top two riders and I'm sure she will prove it someday.

YoungFilly
Mar. 17, 2007, 07:36 PM
I personally have enourmous respect for Catherine, even though I only have her scores and the one video on dressageclinic to go by. She is living her lifes dream here. Its not like everyone in the world can even get to where she is now, let alone making it to being the best rider in the world. I say good luck to her! I hope to see her in Las Vegas!

MEP
Mar. 17, 2007, 07:40 PM
On the other hand, when Catherine Haddad actually competed against members of the U.S. team last summer at Verden, she beat both Tuny Page on Wild One and Leslie Morse on Tip Top. That's about as actual as you get. And Catherine's scores have consistently risen since then.

Catherine is out there riding against Jan Brink, Isabell Werth, Kyra Kyrklund and other megastars of Europe. Is she winning? No. Would she beat our very top riders like Steffen and Floriano? No. But I think it's too bad to say she hasn't truly arrived because her CDI-W scores against the best riders in Europe at the biggest shows are lower than the scores of riders who only compete at CDIs in the U.S., and she has beaten these riders in head-to-head competition.

What Elliot said;)

Sabine
Mar. 17, 2007, 08:30 PM
It appears many of you have forgetten when Catherine competed against Leslie and Tuny in Germany before the WEG....lets see were they even close to her placements in I think 3 shows hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NOOOOOOOOOOO. I think some people on this list have an agenda!!!!!!

Hello Girlfriend...what a super smart conclusion...they sure do- while piping on the other thread that only patriotism is what's missing for the US dressage fortunes to improve...WOW...I am truly speechless!!

I truly Believe she will make it to Vegas and there- we all can see for ourselves....:)

Horsedances
Mar. 17, 2007, 08:54 PM
Hello Girlfriend...what a super smart conclusion...they sure do- while piping on the other thread that only patriotism is what's missing for the US dressage fortunes to improve...WOW...I am truly speechless!!

I truly Believe she will make it to Vegas and there- we all can see for ourselves....:)

At least she has some very tough competitors coming weekend :

http://www.indoorbrabant.com/cms/page.php?id=wedstrijdonderdelen

***scroll to bottom of the page for dressage***

Allthough she has a very dramatical freestyle with much to heavy music, I hope she will make it to the Freestyle to Music at Den Bosch.

Theo

Sabine
Mar. 17, 2007, 09:00 PM
At least she has some very tough competitors coming weekend :

http://www.indoorbrabant.com/cms/page.php?id=wedstrijdonderdelen

***scroll to bottom of the page for dressage***

Allthough she has a very dramatical freestyle with much to heavy music, I hope she will make it to the Freestyle to Music at Den Bosch.

Theo

is that good or bad to have a dramatic music?? I know only the top (10 or 15) from GP get to go...

pinecone
Mar. 17, 2007, 09:01 PM
they sure do- while piping on the other thread that only patriotism is what's missing for the US dressage fortunes to improve...

That was not what was being said on the other thread, that is the negative spin you chose to put on the thread. Someone voiced their opinion of wouldn't it be nice if Horses Unlimited chose to support an American rider now that the relationship with Cesar Parra had been terminated. Maybe that poster has a history I am unaware of, which made people react to her the way they did, because I did not have the same knee jerk reaction to the post as some people did. (and yes, I am aware that Susie Dutta now has the ride on Pik-L, but the OP seemed not to be aware of that, still hardly worth attacking her over imo?)

The politics of this board are quite confusing when you don't post here often!

Sabine
Mar. 17, 2007, 09:07 PM
Pinecone- I don't really think there are politics. There are peeps that like Catherine Haddad and there are those that like 'other' US riders.
The fact that Catherine has become who she is- by training her whole career with Schultheis and later Zeilinger- falls into the direction of : european trainers might still be a tad better...

I think this is where the rift is in both threads: there are some that feel that we in fact have american riders/trainers that are as good or better than what can be hired in Europe, chiefly Germany, Holland and Denmark.
And then there is the latter group that believes that the US is not quite there yet....
( this to be illistrated by a German Chef d'equippe and a german vet and 2 resident germans on the team ).

ridgeback
Mar. 17, 2007, 10:51 PM
Come on everyone lets just be happy for all the riders some will make it now and next time around others will make it. We need depth in our team so lets be happy for whoever makes it and keep pushing and cheering for those that don't make it this time around. Everyone mentioned in this thread including Lisa Wilcox and MIchelle Gibson are great riders and we should be cheering for all of them.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 18, 2007, 04:25 AM
Give me a break! The 4 riders who are still in the lead in Amearica are Debbie Americas all American sweetheart! Guenter, Stephan, and Leslie the dynamic and always controversial girl who rocks the Dressage boat. All are the Tops in the Musical Freestyle, all who have put in the arduous tour abroad, all who have a huge fan base, all who are incredible riders. The Musical freesyle is what everyone loves to watch and these 4 are the best at it. Please tell me when Catharine took down the house with a Musical freestyle! I sure hope she shows up in Burbank.

fiona
Mar. 18, 2007, 06:15 AM
This dressage world is the most back biting lieing bunch of people I've ever run into.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Now just think what would happen if we all started telling the truth!


The Musical freesyle is what everyone loves to watch ....

Actually i prefer the GP or Special. If i like the music it's ok but i'm watching the training or the beautiful horses, i go to the kur to socialise but i don't really take it seriously. It's a bit like just because a band has a good video don't mean i'll buy the album or even the song. Maybe that's a whole other thread!

egontoast
Mar. 18, 2007, 06:29 AM
all who have a huge fan base

How is that relevant? Sounds like you have a personal axe to grind, probably arising from an earlier thread where LM was bashed (unfairly).

On the one hand, some of you want more financial support for US riders and on the other hand you eat your young, to mix metaphors!

May the best people succeed, whoever they may be and regardless of fan bases!:)

magdelene
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:06 AM
"Please tell me when Catharine took down the house with a Musical freestyle!"

Defeinerstar, I can answer to your request:

Munich CDI*** May 2006
Rotterdam CDI*** June 2006
Mechelen CDI-W December 2006
Gothenburg CDI-W February 2007

Mrs. Haddad did not win at these shows. But people thought she did. The applause was incredible. In Muenchen she was the best rider with the best music. Unfortunate to be new for the judges then.

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 08:17 AM
Give me a break! The 4 riders who are still in the lead in Amearica are Debbie Americas all American sweetheart! Guenter, Stephan, and Leslie the dynamic and always controversial girl who rocks the Dressage boat. All are the Tops in the Musical Freestyle, all who have put in the arduous tour abroad, all who have a huge fan base, all who are incredible riders. The Musical freesyle is what everyone loves to watch and these 4 are the best at it. Please tell me when Catharine took down the house with a Musical freestyle! I sure hope she shows up in Burbank.

Well she sent me a video of one from EUrope that the crowd cheered and clapped for about 5 minutes. I'm sure she won't be in burbank why would she go there when she can compete in Europe. Look she has beat your buddy Leslie and Tuny and I'm sure they will beat her at some point. Get over yourself and this topic...LOL I'm happy you are so threatened....

canyonoak
Mar. 18, 2007, 11:26 AM
I think both riders would be absolutely horrified at the tone this thread seems to take.

The US is finally producing a number of riders at the end of the spectrum, the kind of riders who used to exist only in the 'dressage countries' -- Germany, Holland, etc.

At some point, we will produce an Anky and have the solid coaching, superior team vet/sponsors/etc that it takes to succeed, and then we will truly be able to talk about gold and silver.

I believe the sport is going through growing pains in the US right now and it is an exciting time for dressage.

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 11:37 AM
I think both riders would be absolutely horrified at the tone this thread seems to take.

The US is finally producing a number of riders at the end of the spectrum, the kind of riders who used to exist only in the 'dressage countries' -- Germany, Holland, etc.

At some point, we will produce an Anky and have the solid coaching, superior team vet/sponsors/etc that it takes to succeed, and then we will truly be able to talk about gold and silver.

I believe the sport is going through growing pains in the US right now and it is an exciting time for dressage.

AMEN

Defeinerstar
Mar. 18, 2007, 01:59 PM
Your not getting the point! Catherine Haddad is upon us........thats how this thread started. If she can go from 11 to lets say the top 5 in 1 show.Than miracles can and do happen! Maybe it will be in the Musical Freestyle. The musicals are what draw the fans and thus the money.You dont have to be a that smart to realise thats what makes all this happen. I just doubt that Catharine can pull it off. Remember its only my opinion so dont get your your in such a Twitter!

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 02:18 PM
HOw do you explain her beating your buddy then if she's not all that great?

Nice article on dressage daily
http://www.dressagedaily.com/2007/dd_200703/dd_20070318.html

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 02:26 PM
Catherine is upon us rather she makes the World Cup or not. She is doing very will in Europe and I think that is what is important to her. It's ok if you don't like her, her riding or her horse I can assure you it won't make a difference to her.:D

Defeinerstar
Mar. 18, 2007, 02:40 PM
I just dont think she has it yet. Never meet her so How you can say I dont like her.....is false. What I can say is that I have heard from many that where at the WEG is that she is or was a poor sport! That she was very mean spirted towards Leslie and hurtful! So if you think that is a good Horseman and a great representation of Dressage and winning! I would have to Disagree. If you think she is as good as Debbie, Guenter, Stephen, or Leslie. I would have to say I dont think she is there yet. We will have to see how she does....... perhaps her Poor sportsmanship has changed, everyone has the ability to change right?

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 02:52 PM
Well considering the sources I don't believe it:) She beat Leslie twice and she should have been put on the team for WEG PEROID...

Defeinerstar
Mar. 18, 2007, 03:08 PM
And she isnt ready now. Your forgetting that Leslie was qualified not only on Tip-Top but Kingston as well!

shadowdancer
Mar. 18, 2007, 03:18 PM
Defeinerstar, Were you at Aachen? I was. Haddad is well respected for her sportmanship and good horsemanship among her peers here in Europe. She was professional beyond reproach during the entire WEG.

Be careful. You are out of line and your agenda is obvious. This political play will not serve you for the World Cup.

Defeinerstar
Mar. 18, 2007, 03:33 PM
Thanks for your opinion! Like I said its only my opinion. If you dont like it thats fine.

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
Thanks for your opinion! Like I said its only my opinion. If you dont like it thats fine.

blah blah blah:D just giving it back to you:) May the American's do well!!!

egontoast
Mar. 18, 2007, 05:04 PM
So, GOOD, you guys keep it up with the internal nasties because a country you underestimate has a secret weapon. :cool:

Anky and Klimke have been cloned and Ashley Holzer is carrying the merged spawn. MWAHAHHAAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pinecone
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:18 PM
I think both riders would be absolutely horrified at the tone this thread seems to take.

The US is finally producing a number of riders at the end of the spectrum, the kind of riders who used to exist only in the 'dressage countries' -- Germany, Holland, etc.

At some point, we will produce an Anky and have the solid coaching, superior team vet/sponsors/etc that it takes to succeed, and then we will truly be able to talk about gold and silver.

I believe the sport is going through growing pains in the US right now and it is an exciting time for dressage.

Great post.

Some people are so vehemently defending their "favorites", they're losing sight of the big picture.

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:22 PM
Great post.

Some people are so vehemently defending their "favorites", they're losing sight of the big picture.

I would hardly say I"m vehemently defending my favorite, please go back and read all my posts..

pinecone
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:29 PM
I didn't mean you or only you ;).

slc2
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:31 PM
part of the trouble is that different listings and standings indicate different things, like someone pointed out back there, comparing a person's average score to a person's 2 highest scores isn't comparing apples to apples.

pinecone
Mar. 18, 2007, 07:33 PM
Adding - I don't have a dog in this fight, only a country ;).

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 08:50 PM
I didn't mean you or only you ;).

Well I admit I have defended but I wouldn't say vehemently defended:lol:

I will cheer any and all Americans on the team!!!!

Sabine
Mar. 18, 2007, 08:53 PM
Well I admit I have defended but I wouldn't say vehemently defended:lol:

I will cheer any and all Americans on the team!!!!

Let's all be nice and make peace...;)!
The best one will get the wildcard and that is just fine...and it's just fine for each of us to hope that it's one's personal favorite...;)

Theo- can you Pretty please get us some footage of Catherine at s'Hertsogenbosch???? :) :) :)

ridgeback
Mar. 18, 2007, 08:58 PM
I'm sure you can email Catherine and she will have it on her site that is if it's good. I think she may be really changing things up so who knows fingers are crossed:) Like she said in the dressagedaily article posted today she is hoping for a wild card from the FEI...

Ilex
Mar. 19, 2007, 03:47 PM
Anky and Klimke have been cloned and Ashley Holzer is carrying the merged spawn. MWAHAHHAAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want some merged DNA too! That's not fair......do you think if they take some Klimke DNA & some Anky DNA and they put it into stem cells...and you inject that into your brain stem someway that all the sudden.....whamo....you can ride! I WANT SOME TOO!!!!!!

Sabine
Mar. 20, 2007, 04:17 PM
Just got an e-mail from her- there is a great article in Hunter and Sport Horse Magazine (mar/apr issue) about her training methods...for anyone interested...

ridgeback
Mar. 20, 2007, 04:34 PM
It's an excellent article...I saw your on her email list Sabine:)

Sabine
Mar. 20, 2007, 04:53 PM
It's an excellent article...I saw your on her email list Sabine:)

too bad- didn't see you...:(

Sabine
Mar. 20, 2007, 05:28 PM
It's an excellent article...I saw your on her email list Sabine:)

too bad- didn't see you...:(

railmom
Mar. 20, 2007, 05:42 PM
Go, Catherine Go!!!

If you can't ride with the big dogs, stay on the porch :)

A Horse of Course
Mar. 20, 2007, 06:56 PM
I have to say though, I am incredibly bummed that she isn't coming to Ohio now. I was pumped for that.

ridgeback
Mar. 21, 2007, 07:30 AM
Very nice article for those of you that subscribe to Dressage Today..Check it out:D

Sabine
Apr. 22, 2007, 12:41 AM
Catherine did great at the World Cup- a true steady eddy - she performed exactly as expected- I am very happy that she was on the team and hope that the US selection powers will consider her in the future...

Congrats, Catherine- on a job well done in Vegas! First time out in the US!!!

ridgeback
Apr. 23, 2007, 07:19 PM
Catherine did great at the World Cup- a true steady eddy - she performed exactly as expected- I am very happy that she was on the team and hope that the US selection powers will consider her in the future...

Congrats, Catherine- on a job well done in Vegas! First time out in the US!!!


I agree and considering she has competed against other American's in Europe and did well as well as the world cup I would hope the US selection committee will consider her but I'm also realistic about the politics....Heck they didn't even go to germany for the selection trials for weg nor did they ask for videos so don't hold your breath that this committee is going to be fair.

Silly
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:11 PM
This is not at all a snarky question, but were either of you there to see Catherine ride "live"?

Perhaps it was all of the build-up, but I was vastly underwhelmed. I thought there was excessive use of the hand, and the horse lacked schwung and throughness of the back. He was obedient, but almost mechanical, imo. She had solid scores to keep her safely in the middle of the pack (9th of 16 in the GP, and 7th of 11 in the Freestyle), but at least at World Cup, it was clear even from the warm-up Wednesday that she was not going to be a contender for the final 3. Steffen, on the other hand, beat her by a large margin in both the GP and GPS, and Courtney King beat her by a safe margin in the GPS (nearly 4%), although it was admittedly a closer finish between CK and CH in the GP for 8th and 9th.

None of this is to say she is not a nice rider, but I'm not sure she's "all that" as some of the hype might lead you to believe.

mickeydoodle
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:39 PM
I did see all of the rides in person this weekend. From directly above the C judge. Catherine's ride in the freestyle had a high level of difficulty, lots of transitions, changes, one handed zig zag. She rides well, I thought her aides were a little coarser than some of the others. The misic of Gladiator went well with the horse. However, her horse does not have the lateral elasticity, bend and ability of some of the horses with better scores. He had good longitudinal ability (lengthen and shorten), but not so much laterally. In my opinion only. I thought the difficulty of the ride and the music would have gotten higher marks, I would have put her higher in the freestyle pack, but the same in the plain GP.

A Horse of Course
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:43 PM
I thought there was excessive use of the hand

Really??
I was not there, and haven't seen the performance online either. But the videos I have seen before of her ride, and one was the freestyle on Maximus to qualify for the World Cup, I very much thought the opposite.

But I haven't seen it yet, maybe she rode differently...though I hope not!

mickeydoodle
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:46 PM
As far as the hand question goes, in the extended trots she does this funny/unusual thing where she lifts her hands quite noticably, and jigs them forward a little with each stride, kind of like "chucking" the reins at a horse in harness. She did it with every extension, and her extensions were good, but definitely a funny thing to see.

A Horse of Course
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:56 PM
Hmm, while I have seen that by other riders and don't care for it, I certainly wouldn't call that "excessive use of the hands" since the hands are going forward and not back.

Silly
Apr. 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
Perhaps mickeydoodle says it better than I did, when she said Catherine's aids "were a little coarser than some of the others". I thought it made the overall picture less pleasant, and less correct. Add in the fact that I am "a stickler" about quiet hands, and throughness, and you'd see how I'd favor other combinations. There are simply some things I can't overlook, in spite of the degree of difficulty, etc., although even saying that, there was a high degree of difficulty in many/most of the rides, so that did not stand out to me about Catherine's. Daniel Pinto, Steffen Peters, and Kyra K all also had portions with one hand only. I thought the one who did it the most successfully, ironically, was Pinto in Friday's B Finals class.

Curious, mickeydoodle, you said you might have put her higher in the freestyle pack. May I ask where? Of the six who finished above her, I thought all were unquestionably superior, and Courtney King (who finished next ahead of Catherine) beat her by nearly a 4% margin, and all of the others by even larger margins, are you thinking the scoring really was "off" that much in your opinion?

Silly
Apr. 23, 2007, 09:00 PM
Hmm, while I have seen that by other riders and don't care for it, I certainly wouldn't call that "excessive use of the hands" since the hands are going forward and not back.

(the hands were busier than just that.)

mickeydoodle
Apr. 23, 2007, 09:05 PM
I would have put Jan below Catherine, mostly because I do not like Briar's trot. In my opinion only, he is very far out behind himself in the trot, especially the extensions. I think Kyra got some generous scores, as I did not think Max's piaffe was very impressive. I would have put Courtney above Catherine- her changes with twos to ones and ones to twos were really great. The piaffe for Idocus was a little lacking. The horse I liked the best was actually the mare in the test ride, she will be fabulous.

ridgeback
Apr. 23, 2007, 09:19 PM
I would have put Jan below Catherine, mostly because I do not like Briar's trot. In my opinion only, he is very far out behind himself in the trot, especially the extensions. I think Kyra got some generous scores, as I did not think Max's piaffe was very impressive. I would have put Courtney above Catherine- her changes with twos to ones and ones to twos were really great. The piaffe for Idocus was a little lacking. The horse I liked the best was actually the mare in the test ride, she will be fabulous.


I'm with you on Max's piaffe and I thought some were scored way to high considering some of the mistakes that were made. I also think it's a bit like ice skating when you go first you usually get lower scores not always deserved and my opinion CH deserved higher scores. I missed Courtney's ride so I can't comment on her but it's fun to see how much the crowd loved her:)

luvthreehorses
Apr. 23, 2007, 09:32 PM
I would have put Jan below Catherine, mostly because I do not like Briar's trot. In my opinion only, he is very far out behind himself in the trot, especially the extensions. I think Kyra got some generous scores, as I did not think Max's piaffe was very impressive. I would have put Courtney above Catherine- her changes with twos to ones and ones to twos were really great. The piaffe for Idocus was a little lacking. The horse I liked the best was actually the mare in the test ride, she will be fabulous.



I totally agree with you, except for one part..... and I think I had better put on my flame suite. :eek:

Frankly, I don't understand why everyone thinks Courtney is all that great. The horse is great, and he made her look good. Lets see *how* or *if* she could ride a horse that was a lot hotter, one that relies on her, not the other way around, Hmmm? I agree she is a quiet rider. But, I am not sure she has the kahunas to get to the real top, IMHO.

I hate to sound mean or anything, but do you really think she could have handled that Ferro horse that was in the second string?

Just for the record, I think Courtney is a nice person, but I am not getting the whole "better than sliced bread" thing. Is it because she was a graduate of the YR program?

mickeydoodle
Apr. 23, 2007, 10:03 PM
I think Courtney did a very good job, rode the horse better than he has been seen on the international circuit before. Yes, he is trained, but she has done very will with him. One cannot get on a trained horse and just produce the GP test- it takes much much work. Look at Lingh's first GP scores with his new owner - in the 40%'s. Time will tell if Courtney can train the GP, but she did a very good job riding it on an older horse. Her piaffe was not spectacular, but he did it, unlike Tip Top and Gribaldi. (I really like Gribaldi by the way, and the Ferro horse also). She has a very good position, and her aids are very subtle and independent. She may not be " better than sliced bread" but on that night she and Idocus put on a very good test. Kind of like Robert's protoge riding Ranier and Kennedy.

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 23, 2007, 10:30 PM
I liked Courtney's ride -- I'd take it. I thought her freestyle was difficult: two tempes to ones and then ones to twos. That is not easy (unless you do it by mistake. ha ha). RE: the original question...I thought Catherine Haddad was scored appropriately. And, while I'm sure she was over the top with excitement at being there, her "theatrics" of pointing to her horse, hand over her heart got kind of old.

Sabine
Apr. 23, 2007, 11:28 PM
I can see LTH's point- but I absolutely adore Courtney's riding style- I have seen her on 3 different horses- and she always sits perfectly, has very quiet hands and a very calm attitude- it seems to transcend into the horse. I have only the best to say about what I have seen her produce and the effect her riding had on her horses. She also acts very professional.

The hand thing with Catherine might be a thing from Zeilinger- he does it too- as do some Danes that I have seen - not sure how I feel about it. I LOVED Catherine's video on dressageclinic- where she showed one of her students horses- I liked her clearheaded approach and the lack of fuss and icing...just straight to the point (I guess a German thing...LOL!).
I think she did as good as she could- what impressed me is that she came over from Germany- got to work and did her job- and more or less produced what she had produced in the past- a very reliable contributor- and if I was a team coach- someone I would want - because it's great to have the flamboyant, all out winners- but you also need reliable contributors that make up the depth of your team.

ridgeback
Apr. 24, 2007, 07:22 AM
This is not at all a snarky question, but were either of you there to see Catherine ride "live"?

Perhaps it was all of the build-up, but I was vastly underwhelmed. I thought there was excessive use of the hand, and the horse lacked schwung and throughness of the back. He was obedient, but almost mechanical, imo. She had solid scores to keep her safely in the middle of the pack (9th of 16 in the GP, and 7th of 11 in the Freestyle), but at least at World Cup, it was clear even from the warm-up Wednesday that she was not going to be a contender for the final 3. Steffen, on the other hand, beat her by a large margin in both the GP and GPS, and Courtney King beat her by a safe margin in the GPS (nearly 4%), although it was admittedly a closer finish between CK and CH in the GP for 8th and 9th.

None of this is to say she is not a nice rider, but I'm not sure she's "all that" as some of the hype might lead you to believe.


Yes I was:)

ridgeback
Apr. 24, 2007, 07:30 AM
I thought it was interesting that the German judge gave Catherine higher marks then Courtney. I did not particular like Steffan's horse nor did I think it was that difficult of a ride. Catherine's ride was clean unlike some of the very noticeable transistion issues some riders above her had. Yes there were horses that had much bigger movement but I wouldn't say the riders were any better. You are only as good as the horse you are sitting on. You cannot judge anyone from one ride you need to sit in her barn and watch her ride horse after horse, break and train and teach then I promise you would be please to have her riding for this country.

slc2
Apr. 24, 2007, 07:43 AM
Pam Goodrich is fantastic. You should be delighted that she offered to come in and take Haddad's place. Pam has been doing this for a very long time and she is a wonderful teacher and person.

The situation is roughly akin to finding out you are getting an emerald instead of a ruby, you're lucky either way. I wouldn't be saying - oh damn, LOL.

elly
Apr. 24, 2007, 07:51 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Courtney Kind, along with her trainer Lendon Grey TRAIN Idocus to GP, before the horse was handed over to Marlies van Balen in 2001 ?

friesian4me
Apr. 24, 2007, 08:01 AM
I believe so. Those of us in Region 8 have watched and admired Courtney as she has grown as a rider. She is fabulous and has a wonderful career ahead of her.

rcy
Apr. 24, 2007, 08:48 PM
i think i may have enjoyed catherine haddad's rides more had i not been fed up with her ego at the warmup ride. :winkgrin:

Dalfan
Apr. 24, 2007, 09:02 PM
Care to elaborate?

Some amount of ego is required I would say.

egontoast
Apr. 24, 2007, 09:20 PM
in the extended trots she does this funny/unusual thing where she lifts her hands quite noticably, and jigs them forward a little with each stride, kind of like "chucking" the reins at a horse in harness. She did it with every extension, and her extensions were good, but definitely a funny thing to see.

That's very interesting because her trainer Zeilinger does that same odd thing. I noticed it on his videos . He has a lovely seat but he does this strange bouncing thing with his hands.

luvthreehorses
Apr. 24, 2007, 09:27 PM
i think i may have enjoyed catherine haddad's rides more had i not been fed up with her ego at the warmup ride. :winkgrin:

Courtney King also had an ego going on. I thought the pig tails said it all. :winkgrin:

I can't really knock either of them. This sport, at that level requires it. But....

Compared to this rider, and this horse, Courtney and Idocus wouldn't stand a chance. I think Catherine would be able to deal with some real issues.

http://www.kybdressage.com/video/stallion_Liberty.html

Frankly, I have seen all three of these people ride in person, and some of the stuff I have seen Yvonne ride, frankly would scare the daylights out of Courtney. I could site a specific example, but I will not.

I am not saying that because I am mean, I am saying that because I think thats reality.

Yvonne strikes me as a *person* of international quality. I say that because she doesn't just look pretty on a horse, she can really *ride* a horse. She doesn't have a sponser, so therefore, you may not have heard of her.

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 24, 2007, 09:45 PM
I don't know if I'd describe it as "ego," but really the pointing to the horse and the hands over the heart and the thumbs up over and over and after every ride really turned me off. I liked the way the other riders handled the situation better (including Courtney) when they waved to the crowd, patted their horses -- just in general, acted more quiet and professional. I just don't like all the theatrics. I'd be proud of my horse too because I know without the horse, I wouldn't be there, but...still...I think I would contain it a bit! Okay, in my DREAMS, I would contain it a bit!! :-)

imajicadutch
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:02 PM
Wow. Whoops. Ummm.

Lendon and Courtney trained Idocus to GP. Courtney showed Idocus in his first GP's in the US AND Europe. The only reason Marlies got the ride on him had to do with VERY extenuating circumstances.

When Idocus came back to the US , owner and trainers had reason to cry. He was a burnout case...unreliable, tense, tight, sad and not what he had been when he left.

Courtney took the time to bring Idocus back to his innate ability. She had to regain his trust, which, in the case of an international GP horse is nearly like training a horse from scratch.

Courtney is a very good trainer and can ride hot/cold/stupid/smart/dangerous/addwhatyouwanthere.

She is by no means a "one trick wonder". Idocus is not her schoolmaster, as some have suggested. He is her partner.

I have watched Courtney ride many horses for the last seven or eight years and, trust me, she is a rare talent

Dressage Art
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:08 PM
Catherine Haddad and Maximus Freestyle with music from Gladiator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXrRb5PszM8

Dressage Art
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:11 PM
Marlines Van Baalen and Idocus musical freestyle with Frank Senatra's music New York New York: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md_HehPDcII

Dalfan
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:11 PM
Compared to this rider, and this horse, Courtney and Idocus wouldn't stand a chance.

Really? Then I would have thought she would have beat out the rest for a spot. Have you actually watched Courtney ride/train different horses, or just a ride or two?


I am not saying that because I am mean, I am saying that because I think thats reality.

I think you are saying it because you are mean. Why denegrate another rider to prop up someone you admire, but the rest of the world doesn't know?


Yvonne strikes me as a *person* of international quality. I say that because she doesn't just look pretty on a horse, she can really *ride* a horse. She doesn't have a sponser, so therefore, you may not have heard of her.

Of course, having no sponser must be the only reason we haven't heard of her. Yvonne who??

Dressage Art
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:14 PM
Courtney King & Idocus - Grand Prix Freestyle with Brodway music from Cats, Wizard of OZ, and Fiddle of the Roof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoMOtXlcKVo

kwpnWB
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:26 PM
Courtney King also had an ego going on. I thought the pig tails said it all. :winkgrin:

I can't really knock either of them. This sport, at that level requires it. But....

Compared to this rider, and this horse, Courtney and Idocus wouldn't stand a chance. I think Catherine would be able to deal with some real issues.

http://www.kybdressage.com/video/stallion_Liberty.html

Frankly, I have seen all three of these people ride in person, and some of the stuff I have seen Yvonne ride, frankly would scare the daylights out of Courtney. I could site a specific example, but I will not.

I am not saying that because I am mean, I am saying that because I think thats reality.

Yvonne strikes me as a *person* of international quality. I say that because she doesn't just look pretty on a horse, she can really *ride* a horse. She doesn't have a sponser, so therefore, you may not have heard of her.


Then why is it with all of Yvonne's horses they look so unhappy...

imajicadutch
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:29 PM
Of course, having no sponser must be the only reason we haven't heard of her. Yvonne who??


If wishes were sponsers (sic), the whole world would (be in the Olympics/World Cup/ World Equestrian Games, etc.) ride.

This must be a kid who takes lessons from the aforementioned person. Bless her. We all need kids to think we are the most fabulous rider/trainer on earth.

Sponsors generally come to those who deserve them. If a rider/horse team have the talent to go to the top, it usually happens. Thank goodness.;)

Dalfan
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:33 PM
This must be a kid who takes lessons from the aforementioned person. Bless her. We all need kids to think we are the most fabulous rider/trainer on earth.

True, but I hope said rider/trainer is also teaching about humility and good sportsmanship. Braggards are not pretty.

imajicadutch
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:41 PM
I was trying to be nice.


Every trainer should teach their students about humility and good sportsmanship through their actions. Students rarely learn in another way.

Robyn
Apr. 24, 2007, 10:55 PM
What kwpnWB said. I was at the WC and loved watching both of Courtney's rides. Soft, KIND, elegant rider. I've also seen the rider in the video ride at a recent clinic. Not a happy horse, although I will grant that they do well. One wonders if they would do as well if the warm ups were judged....

Dalfan
Apr. 24, 2007, 11:49 PM
I was trying to be nice.

I know you were. :) And tactful, too. :lol: :D

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 12:04 AM
I don't know if I'd describe it as "ego," but really the pointing to the horse and the hands over the heart and the thumbs up over and over and after every ride really turned me off. I liked the way the other riders handled the situation better (including Courtney) when they waved to the crowd, patted their horses -- just in general, acted more quiet and professional. I just don't like all the theatrics. I'd be proud of my horse too because I know without the horse, I wouldn't be there, but...still...I think I would contain it a bit! Okay, in my DREAMS, I would contain it a bit!! :-)


Wow some of you are the most judgemental nasty people I have ever seen. Catherine made it after only 2 years with this horse at Grand Prix has it ever occured to you it was true emotion and not ego. Catherine moved to Germany 13 years ago with two horses and not knowing the language and has worked her ASS off for those 13 years and just recently got a sponsor. Maybe if she gets more horses and financial support like some of these other riders have had for YEARS she will be less emotional. Hopefully people aren't as judgemental when it comes to your behavior or riding skills.

As for Leslie maybe the nerves got to her which would be completely understandable after the dressage community raked her over burning coals...Why don't you guys try being more supportative? I wonder how many people would be willing to say some of the things you do on this board if you had to sign your full name and not hide behind a key board?

zinnniaz
Apr. 25, 2007, 06:30 AM
Wait a sec-- her supposed ego is because she put her hand over her heart and pointed to her horse and because she was emotional? That does not make sense.

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 07:13 AM
Wait a sec-- her supposed ego is because she put her hand over her heart and pointed to her horse and because she was emotional? That does not make sense.

Yah, I don't get this either. I'd be doing more than a "thumbs up" after representing her and her horse so well. Oh wait! Are dressage riders always required to have a stoney, sour look on their faces?

zinnniaz
Apr. 25, 2007, 07:40 AM
The only other reference to ego I can find is that Courtney wore pigtails in her hair. I also do not understand how THAT implies she has a big ego. Those of you saying these riders have big egos, please explain what you mean.

Capriole
Apr. 25, 2007, 08:12 AM
Wait a sec-- her supposed ego is because she put her hand over her heart and pointed to her horse and because she was emotional? That does not make sense.
I had the same reaction as Touchstone. From the minute Catherine Haddad entered the warm up, she was enticing the crowd to cheer for her. There is a difference between waving to the crowd and encouraging them to cheer louder for you. It's hard to explain in words, but it was very obvious to me sitting there. She was a very nice rider, but this behavior turned me off too. Even the announcer remarked, after one of her rides, "That's OK, Catherine, there's no hurry to leave." I did not feel this way about Courtney King at all. ridgeback, I understand you are a good friend of Catherine's, and this probably is hard for you to read.

kkj
Apr. 25, 2007, 08:27 AM
I had a wonderful time in Vegas and enjoyed all the rides. CK is a lovely rider. He position is so beautiful. I thought she did a great job and has a very bright future. She will prove any disbelievers wrong and I don't think it will take her long to do so. I liked her pony tails. She is so refreshing and cute. CH did very well with Maximus. I do not think she has a ego problem or is rough. I really liked that horse. His tank-like build and ears. Not as dynamic or as good laterally as some but I liked him. I think it is ridiculous that people would be upset at the way she points to the horse or celebrates her ride. How petty. I enjoyed Briars freestyle a lot. I do agree his trot is not so good but I liked the freestyle. He looked better this World Cup than last one. He is a cool horse. The Ferro horse has such a horrible walk. The lady from Belarus impressed me. I thought she did quite well and should have scored better. Sunshine was so beautiful and elegant. Gribaldi was not his best. Edward Gal said he was "hard to ride today". Max was very cute but not awe inspiring. I did not like Tip Top and Leslie so much. The hind end was not moving very well. I think she was a better match with Kingston. I actually don't love Floriano. He was impressive and expressive but I just don't love him. It was interesting to see that the two top horses in the GP had ugly necks but the best hind ends. Isabel is an absolute joy to watch.

PaulaM
Apr. 25, 2007, 08:45 AM
I was at the World Cup, watched a bit of the warmup, and all the dressage rides. Some I was very impressed with, others very underwhelmed. I actually got to meet Courtney on Saturday @ the Trilogy Saddle booth and got her autograph. She was so very nice and seemed very down to earth. After watching Idy go all weekend, I was very impressed with him. I think that he actually went better at the WC than he did at the Olympics.

As for Catherine Haddad, I really wasn't impressed. Her trot extensions seemed to "rushed" to me, and I thought the freestyle introduction was a bit over the top, but the rest of the music did seem to suit him.

Oh, and I know this picture is just a moment in time, but wow, is all I can say.

http://www3.telus.net/public/rmeehan/vegas/werth1.jpg

luvthreehorses
Apr. 25, 2007, 08:53 AM
True, but I hope said rider/trainer is also teaching about humility and good sportsmanship. Braggards are not pretty.

I don't know Yvonne. She is not my trainer. I have just seen her ride in person. I have seen Liberty in person. I'm not saying that he doesn't have issues (as in small training issues), because all horses do.

I don't hate CK, she is a *nice* person. She did not train Idocus. Lendon Grey did.

The thing about our YR program, is that you see a lot of young ones come out of the program that look just like CK. They have been coddled to death, and if they are presented with a horse that is a bit temperamental, I get the impression that they would have a hard time dealing with them, or won't because they don't have too.

I am more impressed with people who come from the show jumping background than a dressage background at an early age. They can handle a lot more IMO than someone who has been riding 'safe' horses their entire riding career.

pinecone
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:19 AM
I'm with Capriole. It's hard to put my finger on it, but I found Catherine's Look At Me theatrics a little fake and was turned off by it also. As were many others. Maybe it was insecurity, who knows, but nobody else hammed it up that way. Count me as another who didn't like how strong and busy she was with her hands either, which may have been why Maximus didn't look as supple and free and things didn't flow as much.

I am at a loss as to why someone here thinks Courtney's pigtails are ego?

I'm also at a loss as to what Yvonne whomever has to do with anything. Getting sponsorship dollars is sometimes the luck of the draw or comes from a lot of self promotion and PR, which some people are uncomfortable with, but that's neither here nor there, because sponsorships are not the only thing which got those riders to World Cup. If wishes were sponsors we'd all have them.

When did things become Catherine Versus Courtney anyhow? Is it because Courtney did so much better at this World Cup, or has this been brewing and I missed it? I keep seeing Catherine and Courtney compared, but not the others...

pinecone
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:23 AM
The thing about our YR program, is that you see a lot of young ones come out of the program that look just like CK. They have been coddled to death

You make some fair points about the YR program in general, but I don't think they are applicable to Courtney. Idocus is not her only successful horse.

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:30 AM
They have been coddled to death, and if they are presented with a horse that is a bit temperamental, I get the impression that they would have a hard time dealing with them, or won't because they don't have too.

I am more impressed with people who come from the show jumping background than a dressage background at an early age. They can handle a lot more IMO than someone who has been riding 'safe' horses their entire riding career.

Oh my. You seem to know so much about the YR program and all the little coddled princesses. I can only attribute such a statement to someone who is jealous of others' success/talent and with very little of their own.

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:33 AM
I had the same reaction as Touchstone. From the minute Catherine Haddad entered the warm up, she was enticing the crowd to cheer for her. There is a difference between waving to the crowd and encouraging them to cheer louder for you. It's hard to explain in words, but it was very obvious to me sitting there. She was a very nice rider, but this behavior turned me off too. Even the announcer remarked, after one of her rides, "That's OK, Catherine, there's no hurry to leave." I did not feel this way about Courtney King at all. ridgeback, I understand you are a good friend of Catherine's, and this probably is hard for you to read.

Not at all I know where Catherine has been and where she's come. Don't get me wrong all those riders have egos as we all do and I can understand if you don't like her, her horse or her ride or how she behaved but to assume she has a huge ego is just wrong:) SHe has a little ego along with all the other riders:)

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:36 AM
I had a wonderful time in Vegas and enjoyed all the rides. CK is a lovely rider. He position is so beautiful. I thought she did a great job and has a very bright future. She will prove any disbelievers wrong and I don't think it will take her long to do so. I liked her pony tails. She is so refreshing and cute. CH did very well with Maximus. I do not think she has a ego problem or is rough. I really liked that horse. His tank-like build and ears. Not as dynamic or as good laterally as some but I liked him. I think it is ridiculous that people would be upset at the way she points to the horse or celebrates her ride. How petty. I enjoyed Briars freestyle a lot. I do agree his trot is not so good but I liked the freestyle. He looked better this World Cup than last one. He is a cool horse. The Ferro horse has such a horrible walk. The lady from Belarus impressed me. I thought she did quite well and should have scored better. Sunshine was so beautiful and elegant. Gribaldi was not his best. Edward Gal said he was "hard to ride today". Max was very cute but not awe inspiring. I did not like Tip Top and Leslie so much. The hind end was not moving very well. I think she was a better match with Kingston. I actually don't love Floriano. He was impressive and expressive but I just don't love him. It was interesting to see that the two top horses in the GP had ugly necks but the best hind ends. Isabel is an absolute joy to watch.

Wow I agree with you on every horse:) I to thought the necks were ugly almost saddlebred like. I think the gal from Belarus and Catherine got scored lower then maybe they should because they went first and second happens all the time in ice skating..

Tiki
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:38 AM
They have been coddled to death, and if they are presented with a horse that is a bit temperamental, I get the impression that they would have a hard time dealing with them, or won't because they don't have tooObviously, you don't know much about Courtney King at all. Have you ever considered that the reason she looks so 'ineffective' is that she has such a good seat that nothing disturbs her seat, or her leg, or her hand, or whatever? Have you ever seen her ride a young horse? especially one in training that can suddenly, without notice, be about 12-15 feet, or more, away from where he was a second ago? She's still with him as if nothing had ever happened. No look of surprise on her face, no change in seat, legs, hands. Remember, in dressage, the aids are supposed to be invisible. The problem comes that when they are, 'certain' inexperienced people think the horse is doing it by himself and give the rider no credit for what they've done or can do. I'm MUCH more unimpressed by people flopping all over the horse, waving hands and legs all over the place, trying to get the horse back in place than one who sits quietly, rides it out and continues on as if nothing had ever happened.

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:41 AM
I'm with Capriole. It's hard to put my finger on it, but I found Catherine's Look At Me theatrics a little fake and was turned off by it also. As were many others. Maybe it was insecurity, who knows, but nobody else hammed it up that way. Count me as another who didn't like how strong and busy she was with her hands either, which may have been why Maximus didn't look as supple and free and things didn't flow as much.

I am at a loss as to why someone here thinks Courtney's pigtails are ego?

I'm also at a loss as to what Yvonne whomever has to do with anything. Getting sponsorship dollars is sometimes the luck of the draw or comes from a lot of self promotion and PR, which some people are uncomfortable with, but that's neither here nor there, because sponsorships are not the only thing which got those riders to World Cup. If wishes were sponsors we'd all have them.

When did things become Catherine Versus Courtney anyhow? Is it because Courtney did so much better at this World Cup, or has this been brewing and I missed it? I keep seeing Catherine and Courtney compared, but not the others...

If you look at the GP scores I don't think Courtney did that much better and like I"ve said before there will be times all these riders switch up placements. Just like you didn't like Catherine's show of emotion and made a judgement it was ego maybe some think a 30 year old wearing pig tails is over the top?? I couldn't care less I missed her ride so I didn't know about it till I read it here.

shadowdancer
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:56 AM
I also find KKJ's assessment spot on. And I hope that PaulaM is not trying to imply that the picture she posted is of Catherine Haddad. That's Isabell Werth.

As for CH, I can see why she stays in Germany! Anyone who would describe her as "rough with her hands" needs some serious education in dressage. She very much demonstrated throughout her freestyle that she can ride a complicated and difficult choreography WITHOUT her hands. I wonder how you Yanks fail to see that. You don't see any other riders out there riding extended walk to passage transitions purely from the seat, without shortening the reins first. Was I the only one who saw the one handed zig zag in passage??

As for the vocals and the dramatic choreography, the crowd seemed to love it. The sport of dressage needs creative riders like Haddad who are willing risk innovation.

Why are you tearing down, comparing and insulting two excellent riders, two new faces that could be great assets to your team in the future? Both CH and CK can really ride. Stop ripping at them and let them do their work.

A Horse of Course
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:03 AM
THANK YOU Shadowdancer!!

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:05 AM
I also find KKJ's assessment spot on. And I hope that PaulaM is not trying to imply that the picture she posted is of Catherine Haddad. That's Isabell Werth.

As for CH, I can see why she stays in Germany! Anyone who would describe her as "rough with her hands" needs some serious education in dressage. She very much demonstrated throughout her freestyle that she can ride a complicated and difficult choreography WITHOUT her hands. I wonder how you Yanks fail to see that. You don't see any other riders out there riding extended walk to passage transitions purely from the seat, without shortening the reins first. Was I the only one who saw the one handed zig zag in passage??

As for the vocals and the dramatic choreography, the crowd seemed to love it. The sport of dressage needs creative riders like Haddad who are willing risk innovation.

Why are you tearing down, comparing and insulting two excellent riders, two new faces that could be great assets to your team in the future? Both CH and CK can really ride. Stop ripping at them and let them do their work.


Thank you Thank you Thank you...

We all need to get behind ALL of our riders even when our favorites don't place as well as we thought they should:) I was screaming for all of them... I was very disappointed I missed CK ride but I loved how the crowd went crazy for her..

pinecone
Apr. 25, 2007, 02:07 PM
With all due respect Shadowdancer, it is some people "with a serious education in dressage" who noticed Catherine's hands, lack of softness, lack of schwung, as compared to others at that level. Nobody is saying she is a bad rider, so keep things in perspective, but she At This Time is not as good perhaps as others, Not As Quiet of a rider, and not as good as anticipated from the hype.

What the crowd "loved" is also apparently open to interpretation, lol. As are pigtails...

Ridgeback, I'm really not looking to get dragged down into an argument with such an obvious fan of Catherine's, but for the record (for anyone else reading), Catherine scored a 66.7 in the GP for 9th, and Courtney scored a 67.8 for 8th. On Saturday, Catherine scored a 69.6 for 7th, and Courtney scored a 73.2 for 6th. It is unfortunate you missed Courtney's ride, you might better understand what everyone is talking about, but did you miss All of them, or only her kur?

I agree we need to support all of our riders, but not blindly, and not by pretending they are perfect. Usually people are foaming at the mouth to rip people apart to Educate Their Eyes, but when we are given an opportunity like this thread to discuss the nuances of some of the top riders, people are getting their panties in a wad that they are being Attacked. Go figure.

egontoast
Apr. 25, 2007, 02:22 PM
This was almost an interesting thread if only people could stay a little more objective and less YAY OUR TEAM, You GUYS SUCK. . kkj set a good example with her straightforward non emotional concise statement of her impressions.

I don't understand the sarcastic 'wow' comment about Isabel in her warmup. It has to be sarcasm or that particular photo would not be the poster's choice. Seriously, what are we supposed to gather from that particular moment.

It looks like no one who competes or trains seriously can get much respect for their hard work and what has to be dedication to correct training principles. People will insist in trying to bring them down.

Tiki
Apr. 25, 2007, 02:30 PM
I think some of it is a serious case of 'Meow'!!

PaulaM
Apr. 25, 2007, 02:55 PM
And I hope that PaulaM is not trying to imply that the picture she posted is of Catherine Haddad. That's Isabell Werth.

I am well aware that the picture I have posted is of Isabell Werth, after all, I took it. I was just astounded of the number of horses ridden behind the vertical. OH, and it wasn't just done by the Dutch.

egontoast
Apr. 25, 2007, 03:19 PM
How ridiculous. Even Klimke rode horses deep in training. He talks about it in his young horse book. And Xenophon man Klaus B- there was a clinic report you used to be able to find with google where he discussed the use of deep training.

This type of criticism misses an assessment of the quality of the work. It's not based on where the nose is in relation to a vertical line. Would that it be so simple.

This is a red herring . It's all about the hind end and the back and ADJUSTABILITY as any decent trainer ( Klassical or whatever) will tell you. Are you more knowledgeable than Schumacher, Klimke, Werth, Salsgeberger, and so on? Are/were they really on the wrong track?

kkj
Apr. 25, 2007, 03:24 PM
PaulaM after spending 5 days in Vegas and witnessing a lot of world class riders (I had tickets for all the jumping too), I think the moment in time argument has a lot more credence.

Isabell rode that horse beautifully. He was so relaxed- his ears, tail, general demeanor, yet so up, elevated, through and active behind. It was an absolute joy to watch her. I also noted as she came in before her test she had him on a longer rein sort of stretching and trotting across the diagonal. That one little picture could start to give a horse and rider team a reputation they truly do not deserve.

Also with a horse like Floriano, who must suffer neck envy often, you could see him come behind the vertical even with careful riding on Steffen's part not to go there.

You can take a not so flattering picture of anyone horse and rider team out there.

horsepix76
Apr. 25, 2007, 03:37 PM
I found this picture of CH to be quite interesting. The horse doesn't look too bad, but the piano hands and airplane toes are almost distracting!

http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/145815338-L-1.jpg

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 04:24 PM
I found this picture of CH to be quite interesting. The horse doesn't look too bad, but the piano hands and airplane toes are almost distracting!


Wow horsepix76! Having a hard time swallowing this statement based on your posting in the Kay Meredith thread. Just as you said not to judge/critisize a 20 minute viewing of a clinic, you shouldn't do that either with a picture, a moment in time.

ridgeback
Apr. 25, 2007, 04:38 PM
With all due respect Shadowdancer, it is some people "with a serious education in dressage" who noticed Catherine's hands, lack of softness, lack of schwung, as compared to others at that level. Nobody is saying she is a bad rider, so keep things in perspective, but she At This Time is not as good perhaps as others, Not As Quiet of a rider, and not as good as anticipated from the hype.

What the crowd "loved" is also apparently open to interpretation, lol. As are pigtails...

Ridgeback, I'm really not looking to get dragged down into an argument with such an obvious fan of Catherine's, but for the record (for anyone else reading), Catherine scored a 66.7 in the GP for 9th, and Courtney scored a 67.8 for 8th. On Saturday, Catherine scored a 69.6 for 7th, and Courtney scored a 73.2 for 6th. It is unfortunate you missed Courtney's ride, you might better understand what everyone is talking about, but did you miss All of them, or only her kur?

I agree we need to support all of our riders, but not blindly, and not by pretending they are perfect. Usually people are foaming at the mouth to rip people apart to Educate Their Eyes, but when we are given an opportunity like this thread to discuss the nuances of some of the top riders, people are getting their panties in a wad that they are being Attacked. Go figure.

Here's the difference between you and me I'm not going to judge any rider based on seeing one ride. When you get to the level of success and respect CH has in Europe then we can talk. Oh by the way I could show you pictures of George Morris jumping a horse and we could pick his leg, heels, back and hands apart because a picture is split second yet who would deny he is one of the best?

pinecone
Apr. 25, 2007, 05:16 PM
I said I would stay above this and not get into a battle with you, but your post does beg for a bit of clarification.

It was not one ride, it was all three, Wednesday's warm up, Thurs., and Saturday. And being among "the best" does not make her perfect, and it is a shame you get so upset when any imperfections are discussed. Nobody is perfect, but not being perfect doesn't make someone bad, either. We could even find flaws in Isabell, Anky, Klimke, or any other great, if we wanted, it doesn't make them any less great, but it doesn't hurt to be aware of their imperfections either.

Also, don't presume to know the level of experience of people on the internet, you'd often be surprised. ;)

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:15 PM
If I didn't make it clear in my previous post, I will make it clearer for some of you. I said I would NOT describe the reason for Catherine's pointing to the horse/hand over the heart as "ego." I said maybe it was from excitement. I don't know -- I'm not Catherine. All I'm saying is that I didn't like the theatrics. That's it. No condemnation of Catherine as a rider or a person.

And as far as her toes stuck out and piano hands, well, it wasn't just a "moment in time," it did happen a lot, but so what? I'd rather be an effective rider than a pretty rider. And sometimes our own personal "conformation" means we can't have textbook-perfect riding position.

I respect anyone who gets to that level of competition. It takes hard work, often a "once in a lifetime horse" to quote Jan Brinks in his description about Briar, a sponsor, and, yes, a little bit of luck (which obviously Matine didn't have for this competition).

Defeinerstar
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:37 PM
Thats what the Thread says! Touchtone Farms people on here have difficulty accepting that you are entitled to an opinion. I dont think that any of the Americans rode any where close to the level of the Europeans and still MR. Peters got third. Its all very subjective and its often unfair.I am sure Catherine was a little nervous thus the strange flailing around.

Lizv
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:56 PM
I spoke to CH the day before the freestyle and she explained to me that at the end of her freestyle they wanted the crowd to chant "Maximus" as in the movie Gladiator which is where the music for her freestyle comes from. So, when she was pointing at her horse and asking for people to cheer that is what she was trying to do. If you looked at her mouth that was what she was saying. It is all part of the effect and the theatrics that some have referred to.
Ms Haddad is a very humble person. She is very hard working and gives all the credit to her horses and her coach - without whom (in her words) none of her success would be possible.
She is a very talented rider and trainer and does not deserve to be trashed the way some have done on this thread.
Jealous?

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 09:59 PM
I gotta say - If you want to see some positional faults, look at some of the pics of the WC jumpers.

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:00 PM
...Touchtone Farms people on here...

I have "people?!" Cool! How about if I have my people call your people and we'll "do lunch." :-)

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:01 PM
She is a very talented rider and trainer and does not deserve to be trashed the way some have done on this thread.

I agree.

horsepix76
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:22 PM
Just as you said not to judge/critisize a 20 minute viewing of a clinic, you shouldn't do that either with a picture, a moment in time.

You're absolutely right. :|

Defeinerstar
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:28 PM
Hardly think she was being trashed, They dont like people cheering during the ride because its distracting to the Judges and its Dangerous! Dont take yourself so seriously. I am still not sure How she is upon us? Catherine that is!
You think she is good as the Europeans? They dont even move at all there position and seat are like concrete,

Lizv
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:49 PM
Do I think she is as good as the Europeans? For all intents and purposes she is European - she has been living and training there for over a decade.
She is good. Period.

Dalfan
Apr. 25, 2007, 10:58 PM
You think she is good as the Europeans? They dont even move at all there position and seat are like concrete,

I can understand your bias, as it seems you are european as well. I'm sure you really don't mean the europeans have seats like "concrete". I would think that would not be a good thing.

Phyxius
Apr. 25, 2007, 11:55 PM
I'm a firm believer of "put your money where your mouth is", so everyone here who's obviously so much better than Catherine Haddad, Courtney King, Steffen Peters and the other riders at World Cup, I'd just like to say one thing...

I didn't see you riding there.


When you get to that level and can show us all your worth then bring it. There is NO reason to attack and lambast someone because you're jealous. Green with envy is a horrible thing to be. I was there and I think all of the riders did a fantastic job. They are all inspirations.

europferde
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:03 AM
I'm a firm believer of "put your money where your mouth is", so everyone here who's obviously so much better than Catherine Haddad, Courtney King, Steffen Peters and the other riders at World Cup, I'd just like to say one thing...

I didn't see you riding there.


When you get to that level and can show us all your worth then bring it. There is NO reason to attack and lambast someone because you're jealous. Green with envy is a horrible thing to be. I was there and I think all of the riders did a fantastic job. They are all inspirations.



AMEN!!!!!!!!

www.europferde.com

Dressage Art
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:08 AM
Theatric performances trigger theatric responses... and ~10 pages on COTH ;) She put herself on the map and became easily recognizable in 4 short days of Las Vegas World Cup. She is a character, not a wall flower - good for her! It takes a lot of different people to make the world go around

As of critiquing somebody when you are not as good as they are -- oh boy, what a bunch of baloney --- I have a lot of people critiquing my art skills for more than 20 years and I have some world grand prizes under my belt - so should I ask to see my critics art skills now? :D I'm also critiquing musicians, singers, figure skaters, actresses and such -- do I really need to be as beautiful as D. Moore to critique her?

ridgeback
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:13 AM
And as far as her toes stuck out and piano hands, well, it wasn't just a "moment in time," it did happen a lot, but so what? I'd rather be an effective rider than a pretty rider. And sometimes our own personal "conformation" means we can't have textbook-perfect riding position.

I respect anyone who gets to that level of competition. It takes hard work, often a "once in a lifetime horse" to quote Jan Brinks in his description about Briar, a sponsor, and, yes, a little bit of luck (which obviously Matine didn't have for this competition).

Amen on that, Isabell's horse is hardly a conformation horse. When you look at the way that horse is put together it's amazing how nice he is.

Sabine
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:17 AM
Hardly think she was being trashed, They dont like people cheering during the ride because its distracting to the Judges and its Dangerous! Dont take yourself so seriously. I am still not sure How she is upon us? Catherine that is!
You think she is good as the Europeans? They dont even move at all there position and seat are like concrete,

I am sad to read your post...it doesn't sound like a post from a knowledgable dressage rider...it sounds angry to me...that's not a good frame of mind to post from...

Catherine is an American rider and I believe she will be on the team. She is an incredibly serious and committed rider and she did deliver for the american team- with consistent and respectable rides...it was her first time in a situation like this as an American expatriate competing for her country and it was an extremely emotional moment for her..after having been the runner-up during WEG.

I have only the highest respect for her efforts and I do believe that she has the stick-to-it ness to stay on this team...she has made her horses- so there is little doubt that she can do the job...so in this sense= she is upon us- in a good way- someone who was not expected to show up- showed up out of nowhere and proved to be able to be a factor!

As dressage enthousiasts- more or less out of this league of competitors- I think we all need to be respectful and mindful of the vast gap between what we know and do and what these people do- and if only you prefer Leslie- that is just fine- but it's not the basis to discredit Catherine. I think we need to take a step back and say:

WOW! the US team has come a long way- I am proud of all team members....!

ridgeback
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:20 AM
Hardly think she was being trashed, They dont like people cheering during the ride because its distracting to the Judges and its Dangerous! Dont take yourself so seriously. I am still not sure How she is upon us? Catherine that is!
You think she is good as the Europeans? They dont even move at all there position and seat are like concrete,

Weren't you the one that said this before that she doesn't have what it takes or wasn't ready yet and she was the one that trashed and made Leslie's life miserable at WEG? Although I was also cheering for Leslie because that is the kind of person I am I do have to point out she beat her again....Catherine was pointing at Maximus after the ride so no one would have been in danger.

Defeinerstar
Apr. 26, 2007, 02:38 AM
I am not angry I am truthful, I never said the Americans where bad. I said the Europeans where beter thats all. If you had an open mind and looked carefully. Perhaps you might see that. I look at the movement of the horse and how the riders is able to show that to the full potential. How they go classically. Not like some push button Western pleasure horse. I am not a European but I marvel how they all work together to perfect there craft. From the time a foal is born to the upper levels its a science. The system in the US has to change to be as good. Seems you all have your buns tied up a little to tight.

P.R.E.
Apr. 26, 2007, 03:55 AM
I gotta say - If you want to see some positional faults, look at some of the pics of the WC jumpers.

WHAT!!!! first news I get, that jumpers are supposed to have ceratin position.

Dalfan
Apr. 26, 2007, 07:16 AM
WHAT!!!! first news I get, that jumpers are supposed to have ceratin position.

I think you're kidding, but yes. This was just a suggestion for those who were ragging on about not quite the PERFECT dressage position, especially from a picture.

Atlantis
Apr. 26, 2007, 08:21 AM
I went. I saw. The moment in time arguement doesn't work in this case. I agree with what's been said about Catherine. Valid things have been pointed out, whether or not her fans want to see them.

Learn from it, or get offended, your choice. Better riders have been critiqued for much more minor things.

If people would quit acting like she was the gods gift to dressage, the rest of us might not be so disappointed in the reality. She's a rider, like all of them. Some are better than others. I don't think she's the best. Maybe some day. Not yet. So what? It's hardly an attack.

None of this has anything to do with jealousy. Or what country a person is from. The judges were from all over the world, they didn't think she was perfect either.

Step back, breathe deep, none of this is the end of the world.

She must feel nice to have some loyal fans. But don't be blind, nobody learns anything that way.

A.

slc2
Apr. 26, 2007, 08:24 AM
Considering she's such a mess, Catherine sure has gotten a lot further than those who are criticizing her.

Frankly, I'd be fairly content if I went over to Europe and got the scores she's getting. She isn't doing so bad.

If anyone has any memory, they would remember there was a point in time when Lars Pedersen finished last in everything he went to, and was pretty sloppy too.

Cheer up. People who work hard just continue to improve. maybe some day Catherine will measure up to your standards.

twotempi02
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:14 AM
The thing about our YR program, is that you see a lot of young ones come out of the program that look just like CK. They have been coddled to death, and if they are presented with a horse that is a bit temperamental, I get the impression that they would have a hard time dealing with them, or won't because they don't have too.

I am more impressed with people who come from the show jumping background than a dressage background at an early age. They can handle a lot more IMO than someone who has been riding 'safe' horses their entire riding career.

Wow. I usually manage to stay out of these messes, but this is just so wildly inaccurate. I've known Courtney King for nearly 10 years and was at Lendon's with her for 4. That girl has WORKED for this - as another Gleneden friend said recently, she "rode every cow, pig and giraffe she could get on" and did all of the thankless and unglamorous work that she and the rest of the working students were responsible for. Many or most of the horses she rode at the time (usually about 12 a day) were not special or schooled, and many weren't 'safe' by any definition.

I'm sure Lendon would be the first to tell you that she did not "coddle" Courtney, nor did anyone else during those formative years. She has absolutely no ego (or any real grasp of how talented she is), she truly loves her horses, and is gracious and articulate to everyone she meets. Oh yeah, and she brought Idocus to GP (with Lendon's help), showed him in his first GP, and rode him at that level until circumstances forced his move to Holland. A "quiet," untested rider on a safe schoolmaster? Ha. No.

You are so off-base!

rcy
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:18 AM
wow
seeing how my inappropriate use of the word ego has kind of exploded, i apologize, it was maybe an inappropriate use of the term. . .:no:
but a few other posters know what i was talking about, when she came into the warmup and seemed to use it as a stage where she was trying to wave the crowd to its feet. i can understand that she's emotional and glad to be back, but seriously, not everyone went to the world cup just to see her.
and i think if we look hard enough, we can find little faults with every rider there. . but how many of us can even dream of riding/competing at that level, in the company of such outstanding horse and rider teams?
i don't want to be an armchair critic about what i saw at the wc, i would like to go to the barn and try to emulate all the different good things i DID see from the riders. . . such as the quiet effectiveness of ck to the ability of iw to allow the movement of her horse instead of bracing against it.

slc2
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:42 AM
Sure. And if the rider just came in and did her thing and left, she'd be 'stiff' and 'unfriendly' and 'a bi***'. MAN you people kill me.

With such a nasty crowd watching, these guys can't win for losin'. No matter WHAT they do you lot don't like them.

Why don't you go out there and try to do what they're doing, at the level they're doing it? Why don't any of you ever get off your armchairs and go there and try to find out just how hard it is to be where they are and do what they are doing? You're all riding TRAINING LEVEL for 20 yrs at little local schooling shows, for God's sake! You don't even have a CLUE what it's like to go out and do what they do!

The criticism of Courtney King is the most snotty a**** thing I ever heard come out of this bulletin board. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HARD THAT GIRL HAS WORKED TO GET WHERE SHE IS. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF PERSON SHE IS. TO ASSUME YOU HAVE ANY ****IDEA**** WHO SHE IS OR WHAT SHE IS INSIDE OF HER FROM ONE GESTURE SHE MAKES - GOOD GOD.

Plus, why don't you people all just take a couple valiums and calm down? You make me sick,, always finding something to criticize in everyone. I'd give my eye teeth to go to a nice show like that instead of sitting here working my *** off.

I can't believe you guys, you go to one of the nicest shows in america and all you can do is complain!

ridgeback
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:59 AM
I went. I saw. The moment in time arguement doesn't work in this case. I agree with what's been said about Catherine. Valid things have been pointed out, whether or not her fans want to see them.

Learn from it, or get offended, your choice. Better riders have been critiqued for much more minor things.

If people would quit acting like she was the gods gift to dressage, the rest of us might not be so disappointed in the reality. She's a rider, like all of them. Some are better than others. I don't think she's the best. Maybe some day. Not yet. So what? It's hardly an attack.

None of this has anything to do with jealousy. Or what country a person is from. The judges were from all over the world, they didn't think she was perfect either.

Step back, breathe deep, none of this is the end of the world.

She must feel nice to have some loyal fans. But don't be blind, nobody learns anything that way.

A.

Yee ha I think you need to take a breath:) None of said she is God's gift to anything nor did we say she is better than anyone. We were disagreeing with those that said she has not arrived yet because that would mean most of the other American riders have not arrived yet and that is just not so. Like I said when you can sit and watch her train the babies and ride day after day I think then you can make a judgement if she is your type of rider but to say it seeing her ride at the WC is just unfair...

Tiki
Apr. 26, 2007, 10:03 AM
I'm sure Lendon would be the first to tell you that she did not "coddle" CourtneyHA!!! Right on. I worked for Lendon for 2 years and I can truthfully say I never saw her coddle ANYONE. The welfare of the horses came first, Lendon was an Olympic competitor and the barn had to reflect that. Clean, picked up, tack cleaned, ready for any visitor at any time. Anyone who didn't want to do it right could do it someplace else. AND she was an excellent role model for young women in a horse world that's had its problems in that area. Excellent rider, excellent teacher, good friend, and one of the best test riders in the country.

slc2
Apr. 26, 2007, 11:37 AM
NONE of those good old fashioned trainers coddle anyone. I was helping someone stabled next to lendon in florida about 25 yrs ago - they over there were running their butts off and no orders were delivered in a sweet voice. she's not any easier today - NONE of them are if they're any good. anyone who would even SURVIVE a few months with one of those people has my undying admiration.

it just kills me how judgemental and snooty someone could possibly be to go and make judgements about the inner workings of someone's personality and soul after watching them ride a horse for 10 min.

Dalfan
Apr. 26, 2007, 11:48 AM
luvthreehorses;


The thing about our YR program, is that you see a lot of young ones come out of the program that look just like CK. They have been coddled to death, and if they are presented with a horse that is a bit temperamental, I get the impression that they would have a hard time dealing with them, or won't because they don't have too.

I'd really like to know how you can make this statement. You weren't by chance in this program and somehow just didn't make the cut? Seems you have a lot of jealousy and envy of something you probably have no experience about. Why would you make such a sweeping generalization like this?

slc2
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:06 PM
That's the kind of malarky we read here all the time - judgemental gossip.

Dressage Art
Apr. 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
I know somebody who came out of Lendon's YR program - she is the most hard working trainer that I've ever met - 12 horses per day and all with a smile and great attitude. She deals great with "temperamental" horses - I would say better than most. This program prepared her to be a very sucsessfull pro trainer. It's a great program all the way around.

egontoast
Apr. 26, 2007, 01:57 PM
I know lendon lurks here sometimes. I bet she and her students are getting a huge laugh out of the 'coddling' comment. Really, when you read stuff like that you just have to realize how remote these discussions from any understanding of the actual work involved to get a horse and rider to GP. Any horse and rider. It's hard. Most of us will never make it and it's not just for lack of a horse.

I know someone who has been catapulted to international GP on a very steep learning curve with the help of a wealthy sponsor. She is much reviled and catted upon for her good fortune but I have seen how hard she works. You can't get there without hard work and dedication far beyond what most of us are prepared to commit to the task.

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 26, 2007, 02:24 PM
Sure. And if the rider just came in and did her thing and left, she'd be 'stiff' and 'unfriendly' and 'a bi***'. MAN you people kill me.

With such a nasty crowd watching, these guys can't win for losin'. No matter WHAT they do you lot don't like them.

Why don't you go out there and try to do what they're doing, at the level they're doing it? Why don't any of you ever get off your armchairs and go there and try to find out just how hard it is to be where they are and do what they are doing? You're all riding TRAINING LEVEL for 20 yrs at little local schooling shows, for God's sake! You don't even have a CLUE what it's like to go out and do what they do!

The criticism of Courtney King is the most snotty a**** thing I ever heard come out of this bulletin board. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HARD THAT GIRL HAS WORKED TO GET WHERE SHE IS. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF PERSON SHE IS. TO ASSUME YOU HAVE ANY ****IDEA**** WHO SHE IS OR WHAT SHE IS INSIDE OF HER FROM ONE GESTURE SHE MAKES - GOOD GOD.

Plus, why don't you people all just take a couple valiums and calm down? You make me sick,, always finding something to criticize in everyone. I'd give my eye teeth to go to a nice show like that instead of sitting here working my *** off.

I can't believe you guys, you go to one of the nicest shows in america and all you can do is complain!

Whoa, SLC, I think you need to follow your own suggestion and chill. I didn't find the WC crowd "nasty," in fact, quite the opposite! Where I sat everyone was cheering and clapping for ALL the riders. Also, I don't think you can just dismiss everyone who posts as someone in an armchair or that they shouldn't make a comment because they aren't competiting internationally. While perhaps some posts have gotten a little negative, the other thing to remember is that these riders are in the public's eye, just as NASCAR drivers, baseball and basketball players and other sports professionals. It comes with the territory and I'm sure anyone who has worked their butt off to get to that level and have been in front of judges for years, can handle it. If they couldn't, I'm sure they'd get out of competing.

On a related subject, one thing that impressed me was how supportive the riders were of each other. It was really noticeable in the jumping when the riders were walking the course. When Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum parted company with her horse before the final round, she was walking the final course anyway and you could see other riders supporting her. It was so unfortunate since she had put in terrific rounds (and a terrific ride up to that point), but mistakes happen to the best of them ... and she is certainly one of the best!

I came away inspired by the World Cup overall. My poor horses -- they are now "paying" for my inspiration. ha ha.

kelliope
Apr. 26, 2007, 02:31 PM
I haven't posted in this yet, as I didn't get the opportunity to attend. I do have to comment of Courtney King's pigtails thing though. Pigtails meaning ego? Now if she were wearing a tiarra (which, Lord help me, I would probably wear if I ever got to that level! :winkgrin:) I could understand, but pigtails? All the riders are hard-working and incredibly talented individuals in my book. I have the utmost respect for anyone reaching this level...

see u at x
Apr. 26, 2007, 02:34 PM
I know lendon lurks here sometimes. I bet she and her students are getting a huge laugh out of the 'coddling' comment. Really, when you read stuff like that you just have to realize how remote these discussions from any understanding of the actual work involved to get a horse and rider to GP. Any horse and rider. It's hard. Most of us will never make it and it's not just for lack of a horse.

I spent a while this morning going back and reading this thread and thought the same thing. Something my instructor reminds me of regularly is that if it were easy, everyone would be doing it! I love that this sport makes me work hard, no matter how good or bad of a rider I may be.

Much of my take on this is to the effect of, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." We all make mistakes, and there isn't a rider out there who is without flaws. Yes, some are better than others, and this is obviously shown by who makes it to the top and who doesn't. It kind of makes me sad to read some of the the super critical comments on here. Although one of the objectives of "sports" in general is to be competitive, IMHO, I think it shows a true lack of sportsmanship to sit along the sidelines and criticize these riders who are much more advanced than most of us will ever be. Honestly, I would LOVE to know how many people who have lambasted some of these GP riders are GP riders themselves. Maybe there are more than I think there are, but I would hope that people at that level would have a little more class and dignity than that.

Personally, I think that it would do many of us some good to read or re-read USEF's Sportsman's Charter [emphasis my own]:

THE SPORTSMAN'S CHARTER


That sport is something done for the fun of doing it and that it ceases to be sport when it becomes a business only, something done for what there is in it;

That amateurism is something of the heart and spirit - not a matter of exact technical qualifications;

That good manners of sport are fundamentally important;

That the code must be strictly upheld;

That the whole structure of sport is not only preserved from the absurdity of undue importance, but is justified by a kind of romance which animates it, and by the positive virtues of courage, patience, good temper, and unselfishness which are demanded by the code;

That the exploitation of sport for profit alone kills the spirit and retains only the husk and semblance of the thing;

That the qualities of frankness, courage, and sincerity which mark the good sportsman in private life shall mark the discussions of his interests at a competition.

OK, quietly getting off my soapbox now...

pinecone
Apr. 26, 2007, 07:25 PM
Learn from it, or get offended, your choice. Better riders have been critiqued for much more minor things.


Agree. I think some people are getting a little too worked up that riders are being attacked, or thinking that people are making catty remarks. With the exception of the pigtails remark and some of the statements about how spoiled Courtney must be, there have actually been some very valid points made About The Riding, which were fairly worded, and which weren't attacks or cattiness at all.

Now, why is it a favorite internet tactic to accuse everyone with an opposing view of being a beginner of some sort? I said it once already, and I'll say it again, people would be wise not to presume to know the level of experience of people on the internet, because you'd often be surprised.

ridgeback
Apr. 26, 2007, 08:02 PM
Agree. I think some people are getting a little too worked up that riders are being attacked, or thinking that people are making catty remarks. With the exception of the pigtails remark and some of the statements about how spoiled Courtney must be, there have actually been some very valid points made About The Riding, which were fairly worded, and which weren't attacks or cattiness at all.

Now, why is it a favorite internet tactic to accuse everyone with an opposing view of being a beginner of some sort? I said it once already, and I'll say it again, people would be wise not to presume to know the level of experience of people on the internet, because you'd often be surprised.


well if some of these people are at the level or are WC riders then shame on them and if they show GP locally well I"ve seen many of those riders and they could learn a lot from all the WC riders.

Touchstone Farm
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:36 PM
Ridgeback wrote: "well if some of these people are at the level or are WC riders then shame on them and if they show GP locally well I"ve seen many of those riders and they could learn a lot from all the WC riders."

Agree...to a point. But I don't think it means you can't critique. IMO, you can learn a lot...including that the world's top riders and their horses aren't perfect. For me, it was inspiring to see the top riders perform and think, "Wow, I want to ride like that" and "I want to keep my cool like that and be as professional" and even "I want to remember the GP test and a musical kur like they can." :-) And frankly, it was heartening to see that even the top riders make mistakes, aren't perfect in their position, their horses spook or "quit" on them. I just hope I handle the latter with as much grace as all the riders did at WC.

MEP
Apr. 26, 2007, 09:56 PM
THE SPORTSMAN'S CHARTER

Quote:
That sport is something done for the fun of doing it and that it ceases to be sport when it becomes a business only, something done for what there is in it;

That amateurism is something of the heart and spirit - not a matter of exact technical qualifications;

That good manners of sport are fundamentally important;

That the code must be strictly upheld;

That the whole structure of sport is not only preserved from the absurdity of undue importance, but is justified by a kind of romance which animates it, and by the positive virtues of courage, patience, good temper, and unselfishness which are demanded by the code;

That the exploitation of sport for profit alone kills the spirit and retains only the husk and semblance of the thing;

That the qualities of frankness, courage, and sincerity which mark the good sportsman in private life shall mark the discussions of his interests at a competition.


And frankly, it was heartening to see that even the top riders make mistakes, aren't perfect in their position, their horses spook or "quit" on them. I just hope I handle the latter with as much grace as all the riders did at WC.

Good things for us all to remember.

slc2
Apr. 27, 2007, 08:32 AM
You quite completely misunderstand me. I didn't mean the WC crowd was nasty, i meant people HERE, on this BULLETIN BOARD are nasty - judgemental and gossipy when they have NO experience except riding around in their own back yard (by comparison). They have no idea what it takes to get to where Catherine Haddad is at. She's been working to get there for a very long time. She just so happened to work her a** off without falling into the very, very narrow spotlight these people are aware of - that which is seen from reading free media articles on the internet.

No, she isn't perfect. But the people finding fault with her, and with Courtney, and with a lot of other very hard working people - they haven't got a clue.

ALL horses and riders make mistakes. The search for perfection is just that - a search. Even 10 doesn't mean 'perfect'. It means 'boy that was pretty damned good'.

Defeinerstar
Apr. 27, 2007, 10:49 AM
I think many points that people make are valid. I just dont think you can handle it. Thats your problem. I think anyone who shows or raises Horses knows how hard it is to get to where the WC riders are at. Perhaps you should learn that everyone has a right to say what they want. Dressage isnt a fair Sport! Dont take it so personal.

kkj
Apr. 27, 2007, 12:53 PM
OK so CH is not a picture perfect eq rider. Her legs are not as long as Andreas' legs. Her body is not as thin as Edwards. She isn't as cute as Isabell...but the lady can ride and better than a lot of Europeans. I mean she qualified in shows against them. Come on only two Germans qualified and only one came. European riders are not so much better. That is ridiculous. I saw plenty of faults in a lot of the Europeans too. I just don't see the need to attack them.

Sure no one is perfect, but these were the best competitive teams out there at the time. I was very impressed by all of them.

I can understand the jealously of Courtney. I am not prone to jealously much, but I envy that girl. She is so cute and looks so wonderful on a horse and is a mighty effective rider to boot.

As for "theatrics" bring them on. This sport could use a little more personality and fun.

Want to add, Americans have been proving for awhile now that we can hold our own or kick butt agains the Europeans- Meridith Beerbaum, Lisa Wilcox, Catherine Haddad. Send a little American girl over to Germany and she may do just fine.

slc2
Apr. 27, 2007, 01:01 PM
I think YOU need to learn to handle it, :winkgrin:

I am not taking it 'personal', just as you said you don't have to agree with me, I don't have to agree with what people are saying, either. I have just as much right to say i don't like the tone or what is said, and find it gossipy and petty talk from uninformed people - i have just as much right to say that as you do to say courtney has been 'coddled' at lendon's or that catherine doesn't always look like a ballerina when she's riding a 1650 lb of meat that is very very very happy and sometimes wants to play instead of half halt.

of course, i REALIZE catherine is not perfect and i am just as capable of nitpicking over what she does as you lot, ,and i'm also able to remember what kind of equitation is expected in the show ring for hunters and western pleasure horses, and apply that to catherine haddad.

it's just that i think it is a foolish way to spend my time, which is why i don't. and i'd rather you lot look like idiots doing it than me look like an idiot doing it WITH you.

pinecone
Apr. 27, 2007, 05:24 PM
I think many points that people make are valid. I just dont think you can handle it. Thats your problem. I think anyone who shows or raises Horses knows how hard it is to get to where the WC riders are at. Perhaps you should learn that everyone has a right to say what they want. Dressage isnt a fair Sport! Dont take it so personal.

Thank you. I cannot for the life of me figure out what all the fuss is about just because people tactfully pointed out a couple of issues with Catherine's riding (and it has nothing to do with not being cute enough or thin enough, where Do people come up with this stuff??) Nobody was attacking her, the points being made were valid, and everyone was pretty diplomatic.

I'm baffled by the defensiveness of this thread. :confused:

Defeinerstar
Apr. 27, 2007, 08:48 PM
Thank You! Thought I was back in Kindergarden.

luvthreehorses
Apr. 27, 2007, 09:59 PM
I wasn't saying CK hasn't put in the time and the effort. You can't just sit up there and look pretty. I know that. I was kidding about the pig tails part BTW. :winkgrin:

BUT.......

Lets think about all the young kids (not to be confused with YR riders) who try and compete on their OTTB's, QH's, grade horses etc, who come from real working class families, who work just as hard as kids that get 50,000 WB's and get the chance to work with people like George Williams, Edward Gal, Lars Peterson, Lendon Grey etc. How do you think these kids feel? They want to make it too. Are they getting the privileges that some of these wealthier kids get? Not really. :no:

I wasn't really citing CK as the complete example of that. I do know some YR's, and I can honestly tell you I surely never got the opportunities that they have had. Am I jealous? No, but I do wonder what the kids that see this who don't have the opportunities like CK had think about dressage, and about themselves.

CH, on the other hand... she has made her own breaks. She has really worked for it, and you can remove my name from the list of people who were not happy with her. Sure, she wasn't the most polished, but hey, she got there didn't she?

ridgeback
Apr. 27, 2007, 10:02 PM
Thank You! Thought I was back in Kindergarden.

I don't think people are defensive just a bit surprised on how judgemental people are after seeing someone ride 10 minutes and it would be nice to know the creditials of those that are so educated they are picking on WC riders. Like I said before how many of you would be so willing to say some of the things you say if you couldn't hide your idenity? Of course this is JMO:D

see u at x
Apr. 27, 2007, 10:27 PM
I don't think people are defensive just a bit surprised on how judgemental people are after seeing someone ride 10 minutes and it would be nice to know the creditials of those that are so educated they are picking on WC riders. Like I said before how many of you would be so willing to say some of the things you say if you couldn't hide your idenity? Of course this is JMO:D

Thank you - you hit the nail precisely on the proverbial head. :yes:

Defeinerstar
Apr. 27, 2007, 10:39 PM
Your not getting the Point. Dear! Actually spent some quality time with some of the other WC riders. Wow..... you should have heard what they thought.

SillyHorse
Apr. 27, 2007, 11:03 PM
Lets think about all the young kids (not to be confused with YR riders) who try and compete on their OTTB's, QH's, grade horses etc, who come from real working class families, who work just as hard as kids that get 50,000 WB's and get the chance to work with people like George Williams, Edward Gal, Lars Peterson, Lendon Grey etc. How do you think these kids feel? They want to make it too. Are they getting the privileges that some of these wealthier kids get? Not really. :no:
Well, that's called reality. We don't all get the same opportunities. Not to mention that everything's relative -- there are plenty of horseless young kids that see the ones with the OTTBs, QHs, grades, etc. as incredibly fortunate to have any kind of horse to ride.

A Horse of Course
Apr. 27, 2007, 11:37 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with SillyHorse.
You'll never be happy with your own success if you're always focused on other people's success and other people's unique circumstances and opportunities. Saying, "If only I had the opportunity so and so had I would have had the success I want to have."

One has to pave your OWN road to your OWN success, not someone else's.

Jealousy and bitterness keeps one from succeeding at anything, especially mental happiness!

Dalfan
Apr. 27, 2007, 11:56 PM
Actually spent some quality time with some of the other WC riders. Wow..... you should have heard what they thought.

Riigght. I'm sure you did.

What a stupid thing to say. Seems as if you have a hair up your arse regarding CH. Now you are going to go on and spread rumors and innuendo that you have the inside scoop what some other riders thought. What's the point? What's your agenda?

Being from across the pond, I think you are mistaking the statement "CH is upon us". I think it was just meant that she is a lovely rider, has worked hard to get where she is, and it's nice to see NEW faces that will be representing America.

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 12:12 AM
Did I say something about CH as you refer to her as? No. I did not.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:03 AM
Your not getting the Point. Dear! Actually spent some quality time with some of the other WC riders. Wow..... you should have heard what they thought.

You sure did refer to CH as others have pointed out why don't you go back and read this entire thread because you said CH wasn't ready, wouldn't be a crowd pleaser and she was the cause of LM problems...I'm sure you spent time with the American's especially your friend LM and it wouldn't surprise me if she had issues but I'm sure it was about her ride and not CH. I hope everyone reading this will read this entire thread because your agenda is so obvious and sad IMO especially considering your prediction was so clearly WRONG..

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:15 AM
I thought this post was interesting it was posted back on March 18th by shadowdancer. Am I the only that thinks maybe Defeinerstar is someone who is some how part of the WC team, groom or something. That last sentence is quite interesting...Quote "This political play will not serve you for the World Cup." Hmmm who is Defeinerstar that someone from the UK would say this political play would not serve her for the world cup. Hmm Defeinerstar you've only posted 43 times on this list and you only started posting when Catherine Haddad was being discussed and you are from CA who are you really...



<<Let's talk about Aachen...again, shall we?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Defeinerstar, Were you at Aachen? I was. Haddad is well respected for her sportmanship and good horsemanship among her peers here in Europe. She was professional beyond reproach during the entire WEG.

Be careful. You are out of line and your agenda is obvious. This political play will not serve you for the World Cup.>>>

slc2
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:28 AM
oh, i didn't realize it was that conniving, i thought it was bi****, it turns out it's b***** AND conniving, :lol: :lol: :lol:

pinecone
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:41 AM
Ridgeback (Pot, Kettle, Catherine, whoever you are), you seem to have the biggest agenda of anyone, lol, and yet you want to go after someone else with those accusations!

I don't know who Defeinerstar is, but if she says she spent time with the WC riders, I'm sure she did. What is with people wanting to assume everyone here is an uneducated backyard nobody? And no, I am not going to disclose who I am, to prove my value to a poster I have no respect for anyhow. We're not Catherine, so you'd still argue with us. You're awfully upset by our opinions considering you say we are only backyard nobodys, so I think you realize we are Not, and that bothers you even more.

Defienerstar, feel free to PM me, I'm guessing the buzz you heard was similar to the buzz I heard.

Some of you need a reality check. So people think Catherine isn't as quiet or pretty as some of the others (and Courtney in particular), SO WHAT? Some people think she is too busy with her hands, SO WHAT? Some people thought she was overrated, SO WHAT? Some people are put off by her ego, SO WHAT? These are hardly attacks. As for the first two things, people can actually learn from that, they can aspire to be quieter prettier riders, they can look at Courtney and Catherine and see the differences and decide who they'd rather emulate, and they can learn that busy hands are Not something admirable "just because" a WC rider rode that way, and they can see that there are things about equitation which are functional and valid, not just "for looks" or to be "like a hunter" as some people have implied.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:45 AM
Ridgeback (Pot, Kettle, Catherine, whoever you are), you seem to have the biggest agenda of anyone, lol, and yet you want to go after someone else with those accusations!

I don't know who Defeinerstar is, but if she says she spent time with the WC riders, I'm sure she did. What is with people wanting to assume everyone here is an uneducated backyard nobody? And no, I am not going to disclose who I am, to prove my value to a poster I have no respect for anyhow. We're not Catherine, so you'd still argue with us. You're awfully upset by our opinions considering you say we are only backyard nobodys, so I think you realize we are Not, and that bothers you even more.

Defienerstar, feel free to PM me, I'm guessing the buzz you heard was similar to the buzz I heard.

Some of you need a reality check. So people think Catherine isn't as quiet or pretty as some of the others (and Courtney in particular), SO WHAT? Some people think she is too busy with her hands, SO WHAT? Some people thought she was overrated, SO WHAT? Some people are put off by her ego, SO WHAT? These are hardly attacks. As for the first two things, people can actually learn from that, they can aspire to be quieter prettier riders, they can look at Courtney and Catherine and see the differences and decide who they'd rather emulate, and they can learn that busy hands are Not something admirable "just because" a WC rider rode that way, and they can see that there are things about equitation which are functional and valid, not just "for looks" or to be "like a hunter" as some people have implied.

Darlin if you took a few minutes and went back and reviewed my posts you'd see I was open about being friends with Catherine and you will also see I didn't tear down other riders. I have no problem with others wanting to be like someone else I have a problem with people coming on this list TRASHING people. Please take a look at my post dear pinecone you will see where I said I'm bias....Please research before opening your mouth:) Please read where some said Catherine isn't ready yet, doesn't have what it takes and spoke lies saying Morse's PR problems were Catherine's fault. She even commented about CH behavior in Achen yet she wasn't there. I"ve seen Catherine ride, teach and train for more years than I care to admit:) and since I haven't seen Leslie ride for more then 6 minutes at the WC I won't comment on her performance at the WC or WEG this is the difference between being judgemental and not. No hard feelings!!!

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:56 AM
quote from Pinecone, "Defienerstar, feel free to PM me, I'm guessing the buzz you heard was similar to the buzz I heard. "


Thank you for showing your true colors:) THE BUZZ about Catherine ...LOL ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh and you guys are the experts. After what happened to LM in the press you'd think you guys would learn about gossip but I guess not.. ROTFLMAO

pinecone
Apr. 28, 2007, 12:15 PM
This is a thread about CATHERINE, and people have been primarily discussing CATHERINE. I'm not even sure where Courtney and Leslie come into this in the first place, except perhaps as an attempt to derail people from discussing Catherine?

Ridgeback you might do well to take your own advice and reread things, you'll see who really are the rational ones, and who has a fuse which is wayyyyy too short. (That's you, to make it easier for you to figure out, "darlin".)

My willingness to talk to Defeinerstar doesn't mean we are in cahoots or are ganging up on your hero. For the love of god I don't even know her (Defeinerstar), but while some things Are fine to discuss on the bb, some are Not, such as WC rumors and confidential information. I would be interested in hearing what Defeinerstar saw and heard and has to say, as someone else also with ties to the inside, but I realized it is more appropriate in private (PM), so I was actually being Discrete and Tactful, something which was lost on you.

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 12:25 PM
I saw Catharine warm up. I thought that she looked very nice thats what I said after not ever seeing her ride before. I dont think her Horse is any fabulous mover. And as someone who only rides in Europe I accpected her to be better. Also I dont think any of the American riders compared to the Europeans! That is my opinion. As far as Leslie goes she didnt accpect to show in the WC this year. Tip-Top only went to one show after a much deserved break! One show and he qualified. He was being trail ridden. Leslie when she was trainning in Europe won shows with not one but Two Stallions! So I think its a little different than riding a gelding. Leslie knew her ride wasnt great but she was Happy to be there. The other thing is that Tip-Top is a fabulous mover. And when on very, very good perhaps thats why after one show he made it to the WC. I think that your making Catharine out to be what you want or think she is . And yes she is a very good rider! She still needs more experience that is all I am saying.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 12:57 PM
This is a thread about CATHERINE, and people have been primarily discussing CATHERINE. I'm not even sure where Courtney and Leslie come into this in the first place, except perhaps as an attempt to derail people from discussing Catherine?

Ridgeback you might do well to take your own advice and reread things, you'll see who really are the rational ones, and who has a fuse which is wayyyyy too short. (That's you, to make it easier for you to figure out, "darlin".)

My willingness to talk to Defeinerstar doesn't mean we are in cahoots or are ganging up on your hero. For the love of god I don't even know her (Defeinerstar), but while some things Are fine to discuss on the bb, some are Not, such as WC rumors and confidential information. I would be interested in hearing what Defeinerstar saw and heard and has to say, as someone else also with ties to the inside, but I realized it is more appropriate in private (PM), so I was actually being Discrete and Tactful, something which was lost on you.

Now you got me laughing thank you:)

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:05 PM
I saw Catharine warm up. I thought that she looked very nice thats what I said after not ever seeing her ride before. I dont think her Horse is any fabulous mover. And as someone who only rides in Europe I accpected her to be better. Also I dont think any of the American riders compared to the Europeans! That is my opinion. As far as Leslie goes she didnt accpect to show in the WC this year. Tip-Top only went to one show after a much deserved break! One show and he qualified. He was being trail ridden. Leslie when she was trainning in Europe won shows with not one but Two Stallions! So I think its a little different than riding a gelding. Leslie knew her ride wasnt great but she was Happy to be there. The other thing is that Tip-Top is a fabulous mover. And when on very, very good perhaps thats why after one show he made it to the WC. I think that your making Catharine out to be what you want or think she is . And yes she is a very good rider! She still needs more experience that is all I am saying.

First lets be very clear Catherine is not my hero, if she was on this list she'd be LOL. You have slammed catherine from your second post and that is all you've posted about. You said Catherine was the bad one at WEG and it was going to come back and bite her in her Butt.. Catherine is been in Germany 13 years I don't think she needs any more experience maybe a more expressive horse or maybe not. When the riders went to Germany to compete for the last spot for WEG who beat the remaining AMerican's....Catherine did period end of story. I haven't slammed LM or any of the other riders but you guys have made judgements about CH without ever seeing her ride. Did I do that NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO could I comment on LM results and performance from WEG and the WC sure but I don't think it's fair after watching her ride briefly. Do you think CH has never ridden stallions... give me a break. Here is the difference between CH supporters and you two we support all the riders and are proud of them all and refuse to get in the mud with the two of you!!!!

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:10 PM
darling your Irrational! Your not getting it. 13 years is a long time.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:20 PM
darling your Irrational! Your not getting it. 13 years is a long time.

I think your cover and true intentions have been exposed...Yes I know 13 years is a long time doing it all by herself up until a few years ago....NO help just her riding, training and breeding...

You are upset because you've been exposed...I guess your political games didn't help you at the WC:lol:

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:24 PM
darling your Irrational! Your not getting it. 13 years is a long time.


Yes and she has beaten your hero the last few times....now will LM turn around and beat her sure that happens when you're riding horses and being judged. You see I think they are all great riders and all deserve to be on top. Seriously what do you say about CH beating LM in Germany and in America? Don't get me wrong I think LM can also beat CH but I'm not the one doing the bashing...I love your loyalty it's sweet:D

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:29 PM
thought this post was interesting it was posted back on March 18th by shadowdancer. Am I the only that thinks maybe Defeinerstar is someone who is some how part of the WC team, groom or something. That last sentence is quite interesting...Quote "This political play will not serve you for the World Cup." Hmmm who is Defeinerstar that someone from the UK would say this political play would not serve her for the world cup. Hmm Defeinerstar you've only posted 43 times on this list and you only started posting when Catherine Haddad was being discussed and you are from CA who are you really... At least I admit I'm friends with CH but then again poltically maybe it wouldn't be good for you to say who you are,,



<<Let's talk about Aachen...again, shall we?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Defeinerstar, Were you at Aachen? I was. Haddad is well respected for her sportmanship and good horsemanship among her peers here in Europe. She was professional beyond reproach during the entire WEG.

Be careful. You are out of line and your agenda is obvious. This political play will not serve you for the World Cup.>>>

egontoast
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:32 PM
Step back, people. If Mars had a dressage team you would probably be on the same side.

Dalfan
Apr. 28, 2007, 01:53 PM
And as someone who only rides in Europe I accpected her to be better. Also I dont think any of the American riders compared to the Europeans!

Of course you wouldn't. However, my opinion is that CH is a better rider than LM. By far. I guess this is just a little pay back on your part for the not-so-sparkling behavior that was discussed in the LM thread.

And the word is expect, not "accpect". Not from over there, huh?

Why does this have to this rider against that rider. We all have our favorites. We should be celebrating and supporting all the U.S. riders.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 02:01 PM
Step back, people. If Mars had a dressage team you would probably be on the same side.


You are correct...I apologize

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 02:07 PM
Your very Humourous thats for sure! Catharine would have to be tied on to ride Tip-Top! I hope she continues to do better! She is Young. As far as Leslie goes she already has. She rides one of the Top producers of international level dressage horses in the World.

Dalfan
Apr. 28, 2007, 02:10 PM
She rides one of the Top producers of international level dressage horses in the World.

What does that have to do with how she rides? Unless of course she is riding him while he is "servicing".:lol: :lol:

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 02:17 PM
Your very Humourous thats for sure! Catharine would have to be tied on to ride Tip-Top! I hope she continues to do better! She is Young. As far as Leslie goes she already has. She rides one of the Top producers of international level dressage horses in the World.

LOL that is sooooooo funny. I promise you anything CH could ride the snot out of that horse and sit him just fine....LOL

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 02:18 PM
Your very Humourous thats for sure! Catharine would have to be tied on to ride Tip-Top! I hope she continues to do better! She is Young. As far as Leslie goes she already has. She rides one of the Top producers of international level dressage horses in the World.

You must be mortified she keeps getting beat by CH then....that sucks

SillyHorse
Apr. 28, 2007, 03:07 PM
I would imagine that the riders who are being ragged on, picked apart, defended, and torn apart in this thread are mortified or quite amused, possibly both.

magdelene
Apr. 28, 2007, 04:09 PM
I was invited to the World Cup party for Mrs. Haddad in Vechta on the last Thursday. More than 100 people were there to gratulate. Vets, farrier, trainers, shipper, students, friends, breeders, neighbors--all brought gifts. She took Maximus from the stable to show all the people and he stood for receiving applause. He looks like a statue with much polish. We know that he shines because she has taken care.

When I asked her why she stays in Germany she say that she is respected for her work here. I did not understand this. But after reading I begin to understand.

All peoples that I know in Germany think that Mrs. Haddad is very good rider and going fast to the top. We are very happy for her success.

America has 4 riders in the World Cup Final for the first time ever. I am surprised how unhappy these website people can be.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 05:28 PM
I was invited to the World Cup party for Mrs. Haddad in Vechta on the last Thursday. More than 100 people were there to gratulate. Vets, farrier, trainers, shipper, students, friends, breeders, neighbors--all brought gifts. She took Maximus from the stable to show all the people and he stood for receiving applause. He looks like a statue with much polish. We know that he shines because she has taken care.

When I asked her why she stays in Germany she say that she is respected for her work here. I did not understand this. But after reading I begin to understand.

All peoples that I know in Germany think that Mrs. Haddad is very good rider and going fast to the top. We are very happy for her success.

America has 4 riders in the World Cup Final for the first time ever. I am surprised how unhappy these website people can be.

How wonderful and how very sad that the most supporting people are the Germans. We can learn something from your gratitude and kindness I can only hope the American's can support and cheer on all the top American riders even if they don't ride in the style they like. I for one hope ALL American riders do well regardless of who beats who...

Atlantis
Apr. 28, 2007, 06:33 PM
So people think Catherine isn't as quiet or pretty as some of the others (and Courtney in particular), SO WHAT? Some people think she is too busy with her hands, SO WHAT? Some people thought she was overrated, SO WHAT? Some people are put off by her ego, SO WHAT? These are hardly attacks. As for the first two things, people can actually learn from that, they can aspire to be quieter prettier riders, they can look at Courtney and Catherine and see the differences and decide who they'd rather emulate, and they can learn that busy hands are Not something admirable "just because" a WC rider rode that way, and they can see that there are things about equitation which are functional and valid, not just "for looks" or to be "like a hunter" as some people have implied.

You don't owe anyone an explanation. We understood where you were coming from. A couple of people are looking only for a fight. Best to disregard them. Don't get dragged in. Better to make popcorn and watch:lol: .

A.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 07:22 PM
You don't owe anyone an explanation. We understood where you were coming from. A couple of people are looking only for a fight. Best to disregard them. Don't get dragged in. Better to make popcorn and watch:lol: .

A.

You my friend need to go back and read this entire thread to see who is trying to drag people into a fight:) smoke and mirrors it's not working

pinecone
Apr. 28, 2007, 08:58 PM
You don't owe anyone an explanation. We understood where you were coming from. A couple of people are looking only for a fight. Best to disregard them. Don't get dragged in. Better to make popcorn and watch:lol: .

A.

Point taken, popcorn sounds like a good idea, and I might have a glass of wine too :D !

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:28 PM
maybe with a little wine you can losen up that pinecone you are sitting on.

pinecone
Apr. 28, 2007, 09:55 PM
Lol Defeinerstar! And to think, ridgeback thinks we are in cahoots. Does this mean you don't want any wine or popcorn? :p

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 10:56 PM
I was making a joke to lighten up the Ridge in the Ridgeback.She is a little ridiculous. I actually thought Catherine was very good in her warm up. I just dont understand how she is " upon us". Cheers.

ridgeback
Apr. 28, 2007, 11:13 PM
I was making a joke to lighten up the Ridge in the Ridgeback.She is a little ridiculous. I actually thought Catherine was very good in her warm up. I just dont understand how she is " upon us". Cheers.

Because she keeps beating your friend:) that's how!!!

I'm fine you can go back and read my posts I"m supportive of all the riders. I still would love to know how your comments on March 18th weren't going to help you politically at the WC... guess your agenda has been made public and we can now move on to bigger and better things. Take care and Enjoy the popcorn and wine it sounds good..

Defeinerstar
Apr. 28, 2007, 11:41 PM
I think your a little paranoid and frankly if you where to look at the two girls LM and CH careers I would bet you will find Lesles has been more successful. Not to say that CH doesnt Have a bright future. How many shows did CH have to go to before she got her wild card? The Americans did good they didnt do Great! As I said Leslie didnt have a great ride. Doesnt CH consider herself to be European? Leslie qualified in one show. Maybe you should do a little more homework. Your starting to sound like a real DQ!

Sabine
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:00 AM
Hey Ladies,
I know this is a democratic board and all and I am so for that- but please- let's just let this die down- it's not a pi$$ing contest between CH and LM- it's only about that CH has finally arrived in the US- which she did- some like her, some don't just like with anything- from tomato juice to cranberry juice- so let's be civil about it and agree to disagree and move on...or open another thread that clearly asks to compare the two- that's just fine with me....;)

best to both riders- may they both conquer their demons and be very succesful for the Good Ol' USA!!!

Defeinerstar
Apr. 29, 2007, 12:03 AM
Exactly.

ridgeback
Apr. 29, 2007, 09:07 AM
Hey Ladies,
I know this is a democratic board and all and I am so for that- but please- let's just let this die down- it's not a pi$$ing contest between CH and LM- it's only about that CH has finally arrived in the US- which she did- some like her, some don't just like with anything- from tomato juice to cranberry juice- so let's be civil about it and agree to disagree and move on...or open another thread that clearly asks to compare the two- that's just fine with me....;)

best to both riders- may they both conquer their demons and be very succesful for the Good Ol' USA!!!


Exactly... I guess the European way of qualifing is a bit different then the U.S. I think the U.S. should be a bit tougher to qualify for the WC or Weg we may do better next time:)

egontoast
Apr. 29, 2007, 09:20 AM
I think the U.S. should be a bit tougher to qualify for the WC or Weg we may do better next time

How could making it tougher to qualify change the outcome of the WC?