New team:what breed? [Archive]

ponydraft

Mar. 2, 2007, 08:45 AM

My 3 year project with a pair of green draft ponies has failed.
The Bad news: I've had a bad scare and they are sold; Good news: Didn't get hurt and I've learned a ##@*&# lot the hard way! Surprisingly I'm still not discouraged and still fighting this raging driving habit; I'm over my disapointment and now looking for my new team.

My friends are suggesting I buy a team of mature well broke Percherons for their calm, steady work ethic yet with some style. I'm more comfortable with something smaller but can't find anything in my budget.
I'm still a beginner driver, want something well broke and versatile. I will be doing pleasure drives with a local club, picnic drives with friends and maybe try a cross country course or low level driving show. I drive only on weekends.

Opinions?
thanks my post name will be changing. soon...

49'er

Mar. 2, 2007, 08:51 AM

Haflingers????

ponydraft

Mar. 2, 2007, 08:57 AM

already had a bolting Haflinger that all the kings horses and all the best trainers couldn't untrain....

Renae

Mar. 2, 2007, 10:06 AM

If you are new to driving I would suggest you start with a single horse, not a team, and forget about breed right now, just look for broke, sane and workably sound. Depending on the area of the country you are in usually the easiest affordable broke driving horses to find are Standardbred buggy horses. You may also be able to get a good broke driving horse from the Saddlebred Rescue. http://www.saddlebredrescue.com/ Although they deal primarily with Saddlebreds they have also placed a few Hackneys, Standardbreds, Morgans and Drafts when they have the homes for them.

So:
-forget about breed, color, size, gender
-look for a BROKE horse, that has traveled HUNDREDS OF MILES
-get the best quality equipment for said horse after purchase that you can afford so that equipment failure doesn't hinder your learning
-wait until you are very confident driving a single horse before you attempt to drive a team :) A single is very useful for pleasure driving, would probably be BETTER for your introduction to doing driving shows and CDEs, really nothing that you described that you would like to do would you need a draft pony or draft horse team to do. If you were interested in doing logging, field days, or draft horse pulls that would be different, and in that case I would not try any of that stuff on my own as you can get really hurt if things go wrong, all the "work" stuff you do with heavies should definatly be learned from a mentor!

I hope you have better luck with your next driving project!

MySparrow

Mar. 2, 2007, 10:30 AM

I agree with Renae. Can't imagine starting out on a green pair! Find a very good well trained driving pony and let him help you gain confidence and mastery, and then maybe look for another pony to pair with him.

Good luck. None of us can shake hte addiction!

Dale

goodhors

Mar. 2, 2007, 11:02 AM

For more information, how much multiple horse driving experience do you have? With experience, what kind of equines have you driven, large, small, draft, chunk ponies or the more streamlined ones like QH, Standardbreds, Welsh or Hackney?

My first suggestion would be to get some lessons. Having a trainer working with you will certainly aid your driving confidence, widen your experiences with multiples or a single. Refine your technique with whip, rein handling and READING your horse in situations.

There are a GREAT many horses and pairs of horses available, from all over. They come with all kinds of skill, training and exposure to outside things a road driver could run into. Whether you want them to come live with you, deal with their previous training, good and bad experiences, is going to be your choice.
Trainer lessons can aid you in being a better looker, more observant and knowledgable, in dealing with various horses you try driving at try-outs while shopping.

Do you have equipment from previous animals you might wish to keep, fit to another new horse/s? If you already have lots of stuff, you may want to stay in a certain size range to avoid purchasing MORE stuff. Maybe you wish to change over totally from draft to carriage style things? Sell all and buy new to fit, new horses? You have to decide.

Looking around, visiting trainers, other horse gatherings, lets you see more variety of vehicles, harness styles, before you jump in and buy. Write down names of makers, take photos for later viewing, comparisons, in the search of RIGHT-for-you equipment. Consider breed specialties that may be hard for you to work with in your area. Draft folks have shoeing problems in finding farriers, pay much for good work. Saddlebred, Hackney, Morgans, may have a problem finding a farrier who will leave foot long enough, to put on shoes they can work in. Many less expensive farriers think they will please the customer by trimming short, using too small of shoes, so horse has small, cute hooves. Creates huge hoof problems for a working animal. Those farriers don't understand the needs of the breeds, bred to have sturdy, good sized hoof under them. You may or may not have better farriers in your area and then be able to get them out. Above breeds and ponies are pretty tough footed in most cases, perhaps you could even leave them bare for moderate driving on softer surfaces.

I know in our area, a GOOD draft farrier is REALLY hard to come by. Few farriers will even look at drafts, also hard to get working on the half-drafters. Fancy moving horses, bigger hoofed, naturally longer toed like Saddlebred, Hackneys, Morgans, can be hard to find GOOD farriers for as well, even going plain shod, not breed ring or Park. Something to consider when choosing. I LIKE those 3 breeds, but they do need people who know what their hooves should look like, working on them.

I would suggest again, starting with some driving lessons with a knowledgable carriage driving trainer. Gain experience, more knowledge before shopping for horses. Don't beat yourself up too badly, some horses will never drive safely, whatever training you would give them. Doesn't mean you failed, maybe more that you didn't read them correctly.
Hitching a horse and being ABLE TO DRIVE a horse safely, are two WAY DIFFERENT things. Trainers see so many more animals, they have developed a more critical eye, faster at seeing the cracks in horse attitude of a poor driving candidate.

ponydraft

Mar. 2, 2007, 11:21 AM

pattnic

Mar. 2, 2007, 11:46 AM

I highly recommend Morgans. Quite a few top driving teams (at international events) have been Morgans or part-Morgans. They're not overly huge horses, ranging from about 14.2 - 16-ish hh. They are generally also very tractable and sane. The guy I rode with back home had a freak accident at the Morgan Nationals (I believe it was), where the carriage flipped, and the shaft ended up over the horse's back. Said horse just stood there, not moving. They tend to be very level-headed, so even if they have a stupid-horse moment (as almost all horses sometimes do) - or for that matter, a stupid driver moment - they don't panic. Also, not all Morgans go with long feet - you can show a Morgan just as well with normal feet, particularly if you are looking at open shows or any CDEs. They also generally have very good feet.

Thomas_1

Mar. 2, 2007, 11:47 AM

Before you move on to drive multiples you need to be an advanced singles driver.

You need a heck of a lot more experience under your belt driving singles first of all or you'll have another disaster.

Trakehner

Mar. 2, 2007, 12:13 PM

Walk before you run...get talented with a single and then head to pairs...less drama, less injury, happier horses and your passengers won't be sprinkling holy water before they mount.

Renae

Mar. 2, 2007, 01:13 PM

oh sorry.Not enough info for your answers.
I have been driving single with a very steady 14.2 paint pony that I own for a year. (She is 27 and still young looking but really ought to retire) Have had the lessons for driving multiples twice, have groomed for friends with multiples at shows and have driven with their steady pairs.

have read, watched and studied others extensively over the past three years.
I own a meadowbrook & single harness for the 14.2 pony, a 4 wheel Pioneer training wagon and pairs harness for the 14.2 ponies and a full size antique wagonette. Driving single just doesn't satisfy me the way the pairs do.....

Sounds like maybe your next step should be a little more spritely pony. You should be able to find a small Morgan (or possibly even a Saddlebred or Standardbred that small, they aren't all huge) or larger crossbred or grade pony (there are crossbred and grade Haflingers, Fjords, and Welsh Cobs out there that aren't as expensive as registered purebreds, if you get out there and look) that would fit the equipment you currently own and be a good, broke but still affordable animal for you to learn with. Get more experience driving a broke but slightly more advanced single horse. Then after a few seasons with that animal perhaps look for a teammate for it and an experienced trainer to help you pair them up or pass it along to another driver and start with a very very broke team. When shopping, though, get out there and shop! A lot of people don't use the internet, get to the tack shops and look at the bulletin boards, pick up all the horse traders/shoppers printed in your area, and go to the sales (not necessarily to buy at auction, but to wisen your eye and to learn of any other horses for sale in your area). And most importantly have a trainer or experienced friend accompany you as much as possible :cool:

LostFarmer

Mar. 2, 2007, 02:21 PM

Send them to me. I have a plow and 4 acres. They will make a team with enough time miles and sweat. They may never be a trustworthy pair for parades and the public but they may make a great farm team.

Okay personal opinion about to be presented. I have never been a fan of Haflingers. I like the size but I hate the attitude of the general populous. I have seen a few that are amazing but in general they still have the ponytude. ;) If I were to "design" my perfect driving horse it would be a shire/clyde or percheron crossed onto a very nice small section B welsh. Now this is the one extreme cross that would nick and I would end up with a haflinger sized correctly build dappled gray pony, about 14h and 1000 lbs. :yes: That would be my designer pony. I will likely never try this because we all know that a cross of that extreme would likely look like a bag of spare parts. :no:

You didn't say what you wanted to do with the team but an older been there done that is a great way to learn. LF

nj2

Mar. 2, 2007, 03:32 PM

Talk about a bag of spare parts
A few years ago when we lost both older light horses and thought to replace them with a pair of draft-cross
We looked at a pair of made horses. They were perchxQH Too big (both height and bulk) for our preference. One was pretty nicley put together, but the other (who, by the way had the nicer personality) you could look at each part and go:
ears QH
shoulder -perch
hooves perch
barrel QH
head QH

and on and on

We looked at quite a few draftX and some were distinctly drafty, some were the other half and some were a real collection of parts

goodhors

Mar. 2, 2007, 11:37 PM

I Also, not all Morgans go with long feet - you can show a Morgan just as well with normal feet, particularly if you are looking at open shows or any CDEs. They also generally have very good feet.

Didn't mean to say all Morgans have long toes. However for folks used to looking at QH or western type animals, all identically trimmed with a 3" toe, whether 14.2h or 16.2h, a NORMAL Morgan foot is going to look LONG toed. Morgan foot will also take a bigger shoe, even with flat shoeing, not a Park horse package. As a breed, Morgans along with the Saddlebreds and Hackney horses and ponies I mentioned, have larger feet. Good size hoof has not been bred down in these breeds, so a 4 1/2" toe is in NORMAL range on them. Some farriers can't accept that look, build, don't know how to care for horses with feet like that, so hoof care could be a problem in some areas. Other areas would not have a problem finding a farrier that can easily care for these breeds, larger hoof they wear. Feet in proportion to body, able to carry the body above thru hard work.

I would say a breed show, long toed horse would be over 5 inches and probably have pads added to that. Horse has the bone, with depth and width of hoof to needed to support that shoeing.

Breeds are NOT big or clunky footed at all. Hoof size is in proportion to animals, usable in jobs they do, horses stay sound. People have a hard time recognizing that kind of good hoof under a horse anymore.

Thomas_1

Mar. 3, 2007, 05:46 AM

I also personally don't like haflingers - a bit numb and dumb for my liking. But given a choice I'd rather have them than percheron's any day. And I've owned a percheron stallion - glutton for punishment!

For a novice pairs driver I'd personally say haflingers are as good as you'll get as are shetland ponies are absolutely good (dependent on your weight and the terrain), welsh D's are very very forgiving. I also like old fashioned Morgans - and you guys are fortunate in that you have plenty of them over there.

However for the OP I'm going to emphasise that at this stage consideration should be what next to do to develop skill and expertise as a singles driver. Lets get real: driving a 27 year old paint pony for just a year is hardly real experience.

Tamara in TN

Mar. 3, 2007, 06:50 AM

If I were to "design" my perfect driving horse it would be a shire/clyde or percheron crossed onto a very nice small section B welsh. Now this is the one extreme cross that would nick and I would end up with a haflinger sized correctly build dappled gray pony, about 14h and 1000 lbs. :yes: That would be my designer pony. I will likely never try this because we all know that a cross of that extreme would likely look like a bag of spare parts. :no:
LF

but they already exist in welsh cobs ;)

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN

Mar. 3, 2007, 06:53 AM

I know in our area, a GOOD draft farrier is REALLY hard to come by. Few farriers will even look at drafts, also hard to get working on the half-drafters. Fancy moving horses, bigger hoofed, naturally longer toed like Saddlebred.

my farrier says he has an auto disconnect on his ans machine that turns off the thing when it hears the words "draft" or "mule" :lol: :lol: :lol:

but w/Barenjager and fresh homemade sweets I normally persuade him other wise !!!:lol: :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN

Mar. 3, 2007, 06:57 AM

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2258909]I also personally don't like haflingers - a bit numb and dumb for my liking. But given a choice I'd rather have them than percheron's any day. And I've owned a percheron stallion - glutton for punishment!
QUOTE]

we have a lot of the old type Haflingers here in TN....at one time my friend also had the largest herd of Suffolks in the States here also...but we still have actual wagon trains and heavy harness work to be done and the old time type do pretty well in that work....I've seen a bit of the "modern" lines and they seem to me "dumb" as well as "hot"....which is never a dandy combo...but I like the cold bloods:yes: :yes:

Tamara in TN

MySparrow

Mar. 3, 2007, 07:52 AM

Well, don't tell Sami (Horseyfolks) or RidesaHaffie that their Haflingers are dumb or hot. Sami's in competition right now and holding her own with the glorious AJ, and I've driven with Karen and her boys -- what delightful characters! My husband is completely and utterly smitten with the Haffie personality and power.

At the National Drive last year there were LOTS of haffies and haffie pairs, and I never saw one that I wouldn't be proud to drive or own. And since I've got seven different breeds in my pasture -- including a couple of Percheron crosses -- I'm loathe to discount any breed as a whole.

But we diverge from the OP. I would like to know why the plans for your pair went so badly awry? It might help to figure out what will work for you by taking a closer look at what didn't.

We're all enjoying your pony search! Please keep us involved!

Mar. 3, 2007, 08:32 AM

Best bet is to just get a broke teamm...don't worry about the breed! Haffies are very pony--but you can get good broke ones and ones not so well broke. Perchs can be good or bad...quiet or hot...the same can be said for most breeds.
Long miles are what makes a broke team. I agree with LostFarmer in that aspect. Problem with work horses: they aren't worked enough today!

Thomas_1

Mar. 3, 2007, 09:40 AM

[QUOTE]

..I've seen a bit of the "modern" lines and they seem to me "dumb" as well as "hot"....which is never a dandy combo... Tamara in TN
You mean a bit like Pamela Anderson??? :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Mar. 3, 2007, 10:05 AM

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;2258963]
You mean a bit like Pamela Anderson??? :winkgrin:

well kinda....but it's never an attractive thing in a gelding (in any breed) :p

Tamara in TN

Tandem Hill

Mar. 3, 2007, 10:38 AM

Breed really does not matter unless you have a specific goal for them, meaning logging , showing , CDE and such. If you are looking for a "safe" driving horse or pony, "look" for a safe driving pony, not a breed. Often what you have pictured in your head, is not what you end up with. So be open minded.
Also, find a trainer or friend that is honest, one that will sell you some thing that is right for you & if it's not, won't sell it to you no matter what.
To many horses & ponies get sold into the wrong homes, only to cause a problem & scare the owner and there family, the pony is messed up for good and sold for meat! It's a waste of time, money and talent.
Best thing to do is find a trainer at will evaluate you first and then match you with a turnout you will enjoy for life. If you find a good trainer it's not that hard and allot cheaper in the end.
Best of luck.
Robert
Tandem Hill Farm
www.tandemhillfarm.com

ponydraft

Mar. 5, 2007, 01:03 PM

What went wrong with the ponies?! Didn't want to share a bad story but you asked..
Well I knew I had no business buying green horses; but good looks and emotion got the best of me, and wanted a matched pair.....and I thought it was cheaper. WRONG!
(they're modern style and hot for what I've seen in other Haffies. These horses were never handled, just turned out with the breeder's herd. Bought them at age 2 & 3)
The older one was trained to ride & ground drive, (4 months)then sent home for some riding miles. I put a year's worth of riding miles on him including foxhunting with the hilltoppers. He took to driving training just fine and was a good horse. (3 months training) He would have been fine to keep to ride or drive single or double.

The younger (perfectly matched) brother was spooky and bolted from day one. (was drugged at the breeding farm). He had 5 months of gentle socialization and riding training with ground driving, but continued to bolt out from under me ground driving. I never did feel comfortable riding him. Tried to sell out at this point.
Then I sent him off for more training (3 months driving) and then for driving training as a pair.
Both horses were driving beautifully for the 3rd trainer, no bolting issues.
They were driven every day until they were tired, 3-4 hours.
They came home to my place and were driven daily over Christmas holidays and were doing fine. In January I only had weekends to work the horses and didn't work them long enough until they were tired. Then one day the bolting started again, only this time while hitched. Nothing caused this. Fortunately I was warming up in the fenced pasture. Same issue two weeks later, 2nd full out runaway, and nothing caused it. went from a quiet walk to a dead run. I truly believe the one pony remembered this was how to get out of work with me. Had several knowledgeable horse people tell me this horse was just no good, not fixable;
just one of those horses that was bad news and certain to cause some injury.
so I threw in the towel and quit on them after giving three years of trying.

Didn't want either horse around after the 2nd good scare. They lost my trust.

Tamara in TN

Mar. 5, 2007, 01:26 PM

The younger (perfectly matched) brother was spooky and bolted from day one. (was drugged at the breeding farm). . They lost my trust.

I say shame on the breeder...if they handled their stock at all they would know that it takes more than matching colors to make a useful horse much less a team....sorry about that for you...all breeders should have a litmus test of some sort for their stock

Tamara in TN

LostFarmer

Mar. 5, 2007, 02:47 PM

While I agree that they are an accident potential I think the younger brother could be broke. He sound like a horse that needs work to be good. I have one now that is a good horse but I can't sell him be cause in the wrong hands he is a time bomb. I would put him as a pair with a buck back strap. It is basically a strap that connects to the halter of the runaway to the single tree of the good horse. When he runs he gets to pull the entire load with his nose. Now this doesn't work with 2 renegades, but it sounds like you only have one nut case. I would not hesitate to work a team like this on the farm. I can always set the plow a little deeper and load the spreader a little higher. (Just don't stand behind me when spreading with a runaway.)

LF

Cartfall

Mar. 5, 2007, 04:58 PM

I suggest a light breed--simply out of personal experience and preference. As I drive Arabs, I agree with the Morgans, Welshs, QH or any crosses thereof. I have limited experience with drafts breeds, but the one I had was NOT pleasant.

Ponydraft--there are any number of draft pony crosses out there that are excellent choices. The one thing I found in questions of this type you get a lot of personal choices.

The best advice has already been given--get plenty of experience in singles before you move up. Best of luck and am glad to hear that you are still wanting to drive:cool: after your bad experience. Been there understand that!!!:winkgrin:

kearleydk

Mar. 5, 2007, 09:38 PM

I agree totally with what LF has said in this thread.

I would certainly not have parted with the pair because the older, saner horse was possibly the first half of a good pair. I notice you mention the appearance of the two right at the git go. Having a matched pair is sort of a dream, I think. Far better to have a pair that works together than 2 horse that look alike.

Still not clear what your goals are. Is the look or the performance the important thing? Not saying either is right or wrong. Some people own certain horses just because they like the way the horses look.

On the other hand if learning to drive a pair is the real goal then the look might not matter so much. In this case smaller is better for starters. There are plenty of small horses including my breed (Caspians) that can give you all the speed and endurance you need to start driving a pair. If you dream of plowing or skidding logs you need something larger but still not over a stout 14 hands.

The buck back strap LF mentions may be foriegn territory to some drivers who only use pleasure/marathon vehicles. The buck back works with a work horse set-up with double tree and single trees. Do you have that on the Pioneer training wagon?

Ah one question leads to another doesn't it?

Good luck
Dick

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 06:00 AM

Well I'm going to urge you again not to make another mistake. The scenario you described is classic novice owner/driver mistakes and its ended badly. Don't do it again.

Driving a pair is NOT for a novice driver. Get some miles under your belt with a single horse first. You can always get one to match it later.

RidesAHaflinger

Mar. 6, 2007, 06:27 AM

Nothing caused this. Fortunately I was warming up in the fenced pasture. Same issue two weeks later, 2nd full out runaway, and nothing caused it.

Yes, something did cause it. Many things caused it. They were green-broke babies and by definition they were subject to unpredictable behavior. I truly am sorry you had this frightening experience, but there are so many red flags in your story that I hardly know where to start. But to answer your question about what breed to get next time, I hope you understand that in spite of some of the breed-bashing that's gone on in this thread, the breed of the ponies wasn't to blame for the experience you had. It was a combination of factors including the ponies' green-ness and your own green-ness as a driver (from what I can tell from your post, anyway). You could take any ponies on the planet and put them in this identical situation and get the same identical bad outcome. You took 2 and 3 year olds that were 'unhandled' up to that age and had them trained to drive. By my calculation that makes them 5 and 6 now. The 6 year old *might* be counted on to behave predictably in many situations but the 5 year old sounds like he was a loose cannon from the beginning. He might well be one of those horses that simply isn't suited to driving. There are some like that! But because he fit the description of being a nice match to the other one, he was pressed into service in the pair. I guess you were hoping he would learn from the other one by osmosis.:lol: Actually, that does happen to some extent but I think you'll be better off next time if the horses first go well and reliably as singles so that you know firsthand the extent of their education before you put them in a pair. And then I would suggest continuing to drive them as singles from time to time so you can identify and iron out individual problems.

Please note that I am in no way suggesting that you try Haflingers again. I love mine and nothing could pry them from my grasp but I have no desire or need to talk people into owning them. Haflingers are beautiful, appealing, and if properly raised and trained, they have ability, attitude and work ethic that can't be beat. But as I've said before on this forum, Haflingers also are their own worst enemy. That's because they do have that trademark docile temperament and this leads people to take shortcuts in their training. Because the horse will tolerate it, people will do things like hook an untrained or under-trained Haflinger to a vehicle and say, "Gee, he did fine the first x number of times and then he lost it." Never mind that the horse had gaps in his education big enough to drive a VW through. The horse will get blamed every time. And the subject horse gets sold down the line and his reputation for being bad goes with him, along with the black eye that is given to the entire breed. :eek::no::(

Aside from the ever-present problem of incomplete training, I've been around Haflingers long enough to know that there are a lot of unethical sellers in this breed. And I also know that there are a lot of gullible buyers who want something for nothing. It's possible to go to an auction and buy beautiful, friendly but UNTRAINED Haflingers very cheaply. While this might work out OK for a very experienced trainer, the combination of unethical breeders/sellers and the bargain-hunting buyer too often proves the P.T. Barnum maxim that there's a sucker born every minute.

I think of my own Haflingers as a treasure that I'm grateful to have discovered at my advancing age :yes: and I've brought mine along slowly and carefully from weanlings with the idea that these golden ponies would be with me through my own golden years. So far so good. They are the best thing I've owned in more than four decades of horse ownership and I'm not sure the sun would rise if I didn't see those beautiful faces looking out of their stall windows for me every morning. But that's just me. :winkgrin: Haflingers are decidedly not for everyone and I have no stake in trying to persuade people that they are. But I do have a problem with breed-bashing, no matter what the breed is!

Ashemont

Mar. 6, 2007, 07:54 AM

But I do have a problem with breed-bashing, no matter what the breed is!

AMEN!!!! Over the course of 50+ years I've worked with and owned many, many different breeds and there are certainly good and bad in ALL of them! :yes: While one can make generalizations about a breed there are always exceptions, and every animal of that breed does not have every trait attributed to it.

What I have found consistently, though, is that proper training will overcome any holes in the breeding. I've only run into ONE horse in all of the ones I've handled that was a true rogue. Most problems are man-made or just horses reacting like horses with a human who doesn't understand how to deal with it. If you think a problem is the horse I can guarantee you that there is anothe trainer out there who can prove otherwise :winkgrin:

Must say the only Haflingers I've seen have been delightful individuals with good work ethics. And you can never beat the combination of good training AND good breeding ;)

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 09:18 AM

Yes, something did cause it. Many things caused it. They were green-broke babies and by definition they were subject to unpredictable behavior. Excellent posting and some extremely valid points made in relation to the problem the OP experienced

But I do have a problem with breed-bashing, no matter what the breed is It might have been me that started what you consider to be breed bashing in saying that I personally didn't like Haflingers. I've also said before that I don't like Shitlands :eek: - yet I have them :no: :confused:

However got to say that it would be a VERY odd world if everyone liked every breed of horse. The wonderful thing about horses is that (like dogs) they come in every size, colour, shape, type, temperament imaginable and hence its genuinely a case of something to suit every single person as they come similarly blessed with difference.

I've put loads of haflinger to harness and there is little doubt they make excellent harness horses - subject to the usual rules for any horse - e.g. properly trained, properly managed, properly driven. Unlike some breeds, they tend towards being "forgiving" of slow response, mistakes and ineptitude. I believe you described it as docility and personally I think this is often their undoing. My personal preference being towards a horse that will not "put up and shut up". I like them to be sharp enough and opinionated enough to take exception to cutting corners etc etc.

I believe I was at pains to point out (numerous times) that the breed has got nothing whatsoever to do with what went wrong and neither will a change of breed mitigate the risks or the chances of it happening again.

But to be absolutely clear with what I was saying:

The breed was not the problem.
The fact it was a pair of haflingers is absolutely irrelevent and totally superfluous information

I said it before and I'll say it again whilst I don't personally like Haflingers, they're as good as you'll get for a novice driver.

Got to say though that its very naive to think that everyone will like every breed of horse. I particularly like T/B's and Arabs and Anglo Arabs but I wouldn't care one iota if someone told me everything they couldn't stand about those breeds and knocked them to bits. I can't stand Norweigan Fjords and Icelandic Ponies and I don't even see the point of Falabellas. So what!

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Carriage Ponies

Mar. 6, 2007, 12:31 PM

Agreed Thomas_1...
Well said RidesaHaflinger...
Now I adore my shetlands ...have 3 of the little darlings (shitlands :lol: ???)....and they are the pony for me! Mine are incredibly smart, willing, strong and have HUGE hearts that just give on and on more like the EveryReady Bunny, non stop, but that is I am sure because of proper training and discipline.
I have heard of horror stories too about Shetlands....that they bite and kick and are little monsters. They are very cute and small and many people think they are perfect for small children. They think these ponies don't need training and proper handling like the bigger fellas. NOT! More so its BECAUSE they are cute and small ( and they know it!) that is exactly what they need!
IMO ....as with all horses and ponies , NO BREED excluded (especially horses and ponies used for driving) RESPECT and manners taught by proper training make the animal certainly not necessarily the breed!.

Just my 2 ( errr..3) shetland cents worth!:lol:

Carriage Ponies

RidesAHaflinger

Mar. 6, 2007, 12:57 PM

Thomas, I think you misunderstood. I have NO expectation, naive or otherwise, that people will like the same things I do, including the horses I spend my days with. I have what makes me happy at this time in my life and I sincerely hope that others have the same. The thing I took (and take) exception to is characterizing an entire breed of horses as being this way or that. Beyond that, it's just opinions and opinions are like belly buttons: everybody's got one! :):D:lol::winkgrin::yes:;) Drive on!

MySparrow

Mar. 6, 2007, 02:30 PM

goodhors

Mar. 6, 2007, 04:44 PM

"They were driven every day until they were tired, 3-4 hours."

Quite often Lost Farmer and others comment that making a horse work is a good way to iron out some issues, and I couldn't agree more. But this sentence caught my eye and I wondered if you all agree that working every day till tired, 3-4 hours, is a normal training technique for driving?

Without good driving basics, all you have are tired horses, not TRAINED horses. Young horses do have lots of energy, so being used half a day, not driven into the ground, overloaded with weight or vehicle, in very soft dirt field, for 3-4 hours daily is not usually overworked. Just going along for some milage, in all the gaits, exposing animals to scenery, is not hard work.

However, after horses quit being tired, if you don't have your good basics to depend on, the driver is going to have two VERY FIT, FULL OF ENERGY horses in front, looking for a good time! Won't take much of an excuse to set them off, even after they are almost done with the 3-4 hours of driving.

Kind of like the kids who play on sports teams, they may drag a bit while getting in shape, but once they are fit, they do their warm-ups, play the game, roughhouse with each other, could go play another game easily. Still full of energy and ready for jokes on the Coach. Just bursting with vitality!!

We have quite a few Amish who "train" horses after the winter off. Hitch the big drafters and just work the soft horse into the ground plowing. Even with horse changes at noon on the Teams of 4-5, the work can be so hard, horse is wobbly. None of the horses are fit, stood around all winter. Trained or untrained, horses are all hitched together, driven until the job is done or mealtime comes along. At the end of Spring planting, horses are considered "Broke to plow". Daily exhaustion can take the starch out of most animals. A very tired horse is not learning, just enduring his situation until released at the end of the day. No one learns when that tired, they just get thru it.

Amish got to use horse for work that MUST be done, got PAID for the time as well, he can't lose on that kind of deal! Those who send horse to Amish expect horse will have some bumps and bruises when everything is finished, usually no questions about it.

The now fit, animal goes home, doesn't get hitched except on weekends, may be WAY too much for his driver. Horse "drives" but really knows nothing. Maybe his more experienced Team-mate aids the owner in teaching young horse. Maybe horse is just a single, no friend to help him learn better. We call it Amish broke, works for drafters and driving horses, very common around here. Miles driven on hard roads at steady trot are really hard on a young horse's legs. Immature bone, great distances covered. Amish broke horses have rough looking legs, lots of bumps and knots if used very long.

Some Amish actually know how to train a horse skillfully, few and far between here.

Methods used to train young animals will depend on the trainer horse is handed to. What kind of driving they do, horses they are accostomed to using, where they learned to drive. What knowledge horse gains will vary greatly on return home.

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 04:47 PM

Quite often Lost Farmer and others comment that making a horse work is a good way to iron out some issues, and I couldn't agree more. But this sentence caught my eye and I wondered if you all agree that working every day till tired, 3-4 hours, is a normal training technique for driving?
Driving a horse till its nackered has nothing to do with training at all. It does what it says on the can. You get tired horses, NOT trained horses.

If they're driven in a half decent way, then there's no doubt that it will get them used to the routines and experience and get them so they are familiar with new things. It also means they're going to be less likely to mess about because they'll be quite pleased when you say "woa"

However if they're driven aimlessly for 4 hours by some heavy handed baffoon as a substitute for good quality training and then given back to a novice driver who never intended to drive them for 4 hours a day, then that's a disaster waiting to happen.

Whenever I train a riding or driving horse I ensure I know what the owner intends to do and if its what I call a weekender hobby horse, then I ensure the owner understands why I won't get it fighting fit.

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 04:49 PM

Whoops I think Goodhors and I were typing simultaneously and were reading each others minds! ;)

LostFarmer

Mar. 6, 2007, 05:31 PM

Driving a horse till its nackered has nothing to do with training at all. It does what it says on the can. You get tired horses, NOT trained horses.

If they're driven in a half decent way, then there's no doubt that it will get them used to the routines and experience and get them so they are familiar with new things. It also means they're going to be less likely to mess about because they'll be quite pleased when you say "woa"

However if they're driven aimlessly for 4 hours by some heavy handed baffoon as a substitute for good quality training and then given back to a novice driver who never intended to drive them for 4 hours a day, then that's a disaster waiting to happen.

Whenever I train a riding or driving horse I ensure I know what the owner intends to do and if its what I call a weekender hobby horse, then I ensure the owner understands why I won't get it fighting fit.

I resemble that heavy handed baffoon. :D Driving a horse until the legs fall off won't train a horse but it will get a damn site closer than watching it sit in a pasture. ;) I get so tired of all the "training" that is done with a horse. Every one I know wants to train. Heaven help us if a horse actually worked! They also get fed like a feeder hog instead of for work done.

I am a firm believer that if you can get a horse into harness and ready to use you can make something of them. Once I could hook mine I started using them to do chores. After about 3 weeks, my loader tractor lost a wheel bearing. I used the horses to feed cattle twice a day 3 weeks. It wasn't hard work but those horses were used twice a day and that made them a team. They are not well bred and they are not well matched for gait and temperament. But with consistent use they are respectable. My mentor told me that if I made them bleed soap 3 times a week we would make progress. That chore that needed done was the tool to me hooking consistently. My advice to anyone is to quit "training" and start using.
LF

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 05:35 PM

And that will be advice I shall file in my special category of "interesting" :winkgrin:

Now where is that litter bin :winkgrin:

LostFarmer

Mar. 6, 2007, 05:47 PM

If no one has ever taken the opportunity to tell you that you are and ass Thomas let me be the first. :D

LF

Thomas_1

Mar. 6, 2007, 05:50 PM

You are of course entitled to your opinions but I don't have to agree with them ..... and clearly I don't

RidesAHaflinger

Mar. 6, 2007, 07:12 PM

OMG, someone being called an a** on the driving forum! Where are my smelling salts?? <RidesaHaffie swoons> :eek:

Lost Farmer, you bring an interesting perspective to this forum that I enjoy hearing about as I think many others do. I don't use my horses for farming and yet driving my horses is a way of life for me, just as farming with your horses is for you. But I guess I don't see where plowing fields is any more of a valid experience with horses than what I do, especially given that my horses live on an Air Force base where there is minimal need for plowing. :lol:

I also think Thomas brings valuable experience and perspective to this forum. I appreciate the depth and breadth of experience of many of the people who post here and I think this forum is richer for having all of us weigh in with our various voices. Within the equestrian subculture of the 21st century, the driving community is very small and I personally enjoy hearing as many of those valuable voices as I can, even if I don't always agree with them. We're all united in our desire to keep the ages-old skills and routines of driving alive, even though we all have different ways of interpreting and using those skills... and viva la difference!:yes:

Cartfall

Mar. 6, 2007, 08:32 PM

Thanks Ridesahaffie for a little perspective here.

LF I love hearing your stories with your horses and a working farm and really like the photos with the mountains. :cool: Driving for me is a leisure activity for my own pleasure. My life style like so many of us here does not lend itself to farm work. My horses are driven 2 or 3 nights a week. Is there room for improvement for them or me? You betcha---:yes: That means occasionally we get more "training". It really is what one chooses to do with their horse and what level they strive to achieve. You have wonderful ponies who drive in parades (I shudder to even think to attempt that:eek: ) and pull heavy loads to feed your cattle. My horses do a pretty good job at CDEs--something that your ponies might have problems with. Do you care? Not a hoot as your horses have a different job. You offer a different perspective. It simply is different strokes, different folks. :yes:

Thomas--love it that you like Arabs or Anglo Arabs!!! :cool: Thought you were a stuffy sort!!!! You bring a whole different view to our discussion.

LostFarmer

Mar. 6, 2007, 10:10 PM

It is all in the semantics. By using a horse I mean do something hooking 3 times a week is using. When people get in trouble it is usually when they forget that the horse needs a job. Ever see an athlete that was in good condition that never was pushed until they broke a sweat? I bet Lance Armstrong pushed a little harder than a quick walk around the park. ;) As often as we hitch to work we hitch to play. My 8 year old drives all the time. (Never without me on the vehicle.) He catches grooms and has the ponies mostly harnessed before I get home from work.

As for the CDE's I would love to give it a try. Try finding one in boondocks Idaho. We would stink the joint up in dressage as I don't have a clue about it and the ponies even less. Cones we could handle and the marathon obstacles would be like some of the combinations that we go through to do chores. Could we compete with the big guns? not a chance. Could we make believers out of some? I would bet we could.

My mentor and friend is 75ish and has been breaking horse before most on this BB were conceived. He broke everything he could find to drive. (goats, oxen, donkeys, mules, draft horses, light horses, ponies, dogs, he even has pictures of a chicken he started to a small cart.) He farms with a team but also does parades, furnerals, weddings (is there a difference? :winkgrin:) and even horse pulls. Horsemanship knows no discipline. Anyhow, this old duffer was approached about starting a few horses to carriage for a high brow Spanish breed farm. The horses were to be started here then moved to the south to compete. His farm started horses were able to go down and compete with respectability. He had never driven in some of the double and progressive braked vehicles but his horse still were broke and exposed to many things.

Use your horses be it going around a ring, plowing a back 40, or going to town. Use will make them better. I am hoping to go on a wagon trail ride out through the desert in May. I have a friend with a good young team that has been well started but not seasoned. He is afraid that they aren't ready for a wagon train. I keep telling him they will be better on the 3rd day than the first.
LF