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View Full Version : long lining at a dressage show as warmup



shiloh04
Feb. 25, 2007, 09:51 AM
i was recently informed (thankfully by a fellow competitor, not the show staff) that this is illegal. and im curious as to why. i use it as a warmup, instead of lunging, because with all my mares issues, side reins kinda confuse her unless shes stretching into them. and frankly, i want to be able to watch her go how i woudl ride her (which in long lines i can) to see how she is moving that day.

so why is this illegal, but a trainer can warm your horse up for you and toss you on 5 minutes before your test? or you can lunge in side reins. or you can warm up with your horse's head literally pinned to its chest.

yes i am a bit bitter, as i LOVE my long lines as warmup, they just allow me a better connection to my mare than lunging ever will.

cosmos mom
Feb. 25, 2007, 09:52 AM
i was recently informed (thankfully by a fellow competitor, not the show staff) that this is illegal. and im curious as to why. i use it as a warmup, instead of lunging, because with all my mares issues, side reins kinda confuse her unless shes stretching into them. and frankly, i want to be able to watch her go how i woudl ride her (which in long lines i can) to see how she is moving that day.

so why is this illegal, but a trainer can warm your horse up for you and toss you on 5 minutes before your test? or you can lunge in side reins. or you can warm up with your horse's head literally pinned to its chest.

yes i am a bit bitter, as i LOVE my long lines as warmup, they just allow me a better connection to my mare than lunging ever will.

Not sure, but maybe it is a space issue?

Equibrit
Feb. 25, 2007, 09:55 AM
Traffic problem I would imagine! Imagine a warm-up ring full of long reiners. Some people have a problem staying out of the way when riding.

hoopoe
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:15 AM
I do find it frustrating that there is rarely information as to why a rule change is made.

Often rule changes happen out of a need. Perhaps it was becoming too pervasive and obtrusive in one particular area, abusive by a small community of users or perhaps to bring in line with international ( FEI) type rules.

I think the most obvious reason is as they pertain to the whip , the length and the use from the ground as seen in the FEI rules

real or perceived issues who knows.

Animal rights activists are starting to creep into all our activities. Perhaps there is a need to refine the activities that can easily happen "behind the scenes" and bring them under public scrutiny

ADW
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:21 AM
How about a seperate area or time for lunging like many of the hunter shows have ? One could long line there. I am a great fan of long lining ,also.

shiloh04
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:56 AM
at this particular show, there was PLENTY of warmup space. i chose an area about twice the size of a standard dressage arena where there was one rider using about half of it, and i kept my mare in a circle, out of her way, and i dont long line with a whip (mare woudl end up in a different county if i did, shes been abused with one at some point, as is obvious by her behavior when one is in her presence).

so abuse of warmup space, or traffic problems. give us the same rules as the lungers. i long line like i lunge. my mare just likes the security and communication of that outside line, just like she rides better off my outside rein. she is more responsive to my half-halfs and vocal requests when long-linging, and is thus safer. maybe everyone's horse isnt like that. i just dont get it.

siegi b.
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:01 AM
shiloh04 - I imagine the use of long-lining is not allowed because you really couldn't control your horse if she decided to up and go (unless you're a really good water skier:-)). You said yourself that you can't use a whip with her... what if somebody else came close to her with one?

No need to get nasty about others in the warm-up ring that go by the rules.

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:02 AM
Well, first off, can anybody point us to the actual RULE?? Is it a USDF rule or an FEI rule or a local rule??

I'm a big fan of long-lining too and while I don't "do" dressage this would be yet another reason why I *wouldn't* do dressage! :)

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:24 AM
Well, first off, can anybody point us to the actual RULE?? Is it a USDF rule or an FEI rule or a local rule??

USEF rule
DR 121.7

...
Only one lunge line is permitted only while lungeing. Driving or long lining is prohibited.
...

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
I would imagine it is a safety concern.

Can you imagine 10 people trying to do it in a limited warm up area, mixed with horses under saddle?

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:34 AM
Thanks Janet! But my question is the same as the OP's... What's the difference between longeing and long-lining in terms of safety concerns? IMO the horse is BETTER under control in long-lines... :confused:

2Horse
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:34 AM
I don't understand either. Most places I have been have plenty of room to warm up. I usually chose a field away from everyone else.
As far as a control issue? I have WAY more control long lining then I do just lunging. So it doesn't make sense to me at all.

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:44 AM
I do find it frustrating that there is rarely information as to why a rule change is made. At the time a rule change is proposed, there is a description of the reason for the change, on the proposal. All USEF members are invited to submit comments on the rule change proposals.

This change went into effect Dec 1 2005, so the time to comment would have been the fall of 2004.

I expect that, if you email Janine Malone, she can tell you the reason.

shiloh04
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:46 AM
exactly my point. and i am not getting nasty. my mare has no issues with others riding past with whips. if she did, i wouldnt take her in areas where i knew others were riding with whips. she has the ussue with them being in a position to be used on her, and i have ridden her next to a horse with the whip between our horses many times with no issues. even when she was touched with the whip, she was fine.

as far as a horse going up, a horse going up in side reins is FAR worse off than a horse going up in long lines. in side reins, they are much more likely to flip over. now THAT would cause soem chaos and probably more than a few spooks in an arena full of riders warming up. in long lines, you can easily release the pressure so the horse can come back down rather than flipping over. as far as taking off, my horse has "taken off" many more times lunging to the point where ive had to let go of the line than she ever has or will in long-lining, because...i have an outside half-halt as well as an inside one.

evermore
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:50 AM
Long lining is terrific for many reasons. I recommend it to many of my clients (I'm in the equine physio & conditioning field). However I also offer lessons on lunging and long lining.

I do not recommend it for those owners that I feel would have trouble doing it perhaps because of the coordination it takes, confidence of the handler, horse personality etc. There are safety factors to consider. Though I've seen some people lunge their horses (at shows of varying disciplines) that shouldn't be doing so.

The rule against it at shows is for a couple reasons discussed in this thread. Not all shows have the room. Some do and some don't. We know that if it wasn't against the rules someone would expect to do it at a facility where there just wasn't room. It's also not an exercise for everyone as it takes experience and practice to develop the skill effectively.

Kudos to long liners out there. You probably have a better horse for it.

Elegante E
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:50 AM
Long lining isn't done on a circle so takes up more space. Even if you have a special area for it - which most places don't have space for, they can barely handle lunging - the possibility of disaster is far greater than just longing.

Has to be a safety issue. If those of you asking would come to my area and watch the warmup ring where DQs muck about with absolutely no concern for the other riders, you would understand.

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:54 AM
Long lining isn't done on a circle so takes up more space.

Oh for God's sake, of COURSE it is. Study up. ;)

If the "safety" issue is people ground driving (as opposed to long-lining - there is a difference!) their horses TO/FROM the area in which they intend to long-line (in a circle), then perhaps that would be a valid concern.... But if so, then it would IMO have been better addressed by a more carefully worded rule change. :(

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:56 AM
Here is the original rule change proposal, complete with the contact email
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/2004pdf/499-04.pdf

The reason given is
"Clarification purposes regarding saddlery and equipment permitted for schooling. To promote good riding and training practices."

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:58 AM
Lots of rules exist for the safety of others, not just ourselves. Maybe your mare is fine, but other horses under similar circumstances are not ...

I've seen a frightening number of warmups where riders don't watch where they are going at ALL. Fair enough, most of them are lower-level riders and some of them new to dressage, but their eyes are focused on the horse under them and ... well, crashes between are not uncommon.

What if one of those riders does his lenthen into your lines?

I think I'm just echoing Equibrit's comment.

In any case, those of you who say "most places" ... do you mean in your area, or most places throughout the United States, the geography for which the USEF is responsible? There's certainly not room enough for this sort of thing at most of the venues in MY area.

So, if you want to know WHY, take Janet's great advice "email Janine Malone, she can tell you the reason"

If you want to long line your horse, do it at home, before you load up.

If you want to get the rule changed, work together and submit a rule change request (the process is available to ALL USEF members in good standing).

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:09 PM
Here is the original rule change proposal, complete with the contact email
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/2004pdf/499-04.pdf

The reason given is
"Clarification purposes regarding saddlery and equipment permitted for schooling. To promote good riding and training practices."

Oh, THAT's priceless...!!! :lol: Terminally insane, of course, but priceless...

Thanks again for the research, Janet, you are the ace! :yes:

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:13 PM
What if one of those riders does his lenthen into your lines?.

Not a valid argument. What if they do it into your longe line while you're longeing with side reins?? Exact same problem, only now you've got potential for the longed horse to get loose with side reins on??!!! No thanks...

Renae
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:19 PM
I found this rule odd too particulary as I also have worked with Saddlebreds and Arabs and IMO someone long lining their horse as often is the case at a Saddlebred show has a lot more control of their animal than someone lungeing. People also ride with driving horses all the time at Saddlebred shows. I have also been to dressage shows that have both ridden and driven dressage at the same show (with some of the horses competing in both) and those riding have no problem sharing the warm up space with those long lining and driving there.

merrygoround
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:20 PM
I don't understand either. Most places I have been have plenty of room to warm up. I usually chose a field away from everyone else.
As far as a control issue? I have WAY more control long lining then I do just lunging. So it doesn't make sense to me at all.

I guess you haven't been to some of the places I've been with 8 arenas and 1 small warmup. :(

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:24 PM
I guess you haven't been to some of the places I've been with 8 arenas and 1 small warmup. :(

Fine, I understand that part of the argument - where I quibble is that long-lining is any MORE of a safety issue than longeing.

Now, I've been at shows (e.g. Devon, the old MSG) where there was limited warmup and longeing itself was specifically prohibited by that show, for that show only, for obvious space and safety reasons. And I don't really have a problem with that - it makes sense in fact. But I can't really see the point at all of the USEF rule prohibiting long-lining but not longeing.

tarragon
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:35 PM
This is a very silly rule, especially since the FEI rules permit long-lining in warm-up. I once witnessed an European BNR be eliminated for long-lining (on a circle) at a show. He was amazed the US would prohibit something the FEI rules allow.

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 12:48 PM
This is a very silly rule, especially since the FEI rules permit long-lining in warm-up. I once witnessed an European BNR be eliminated for long-lining (on a circle) at a show. He was amazed the US would prohibit something the FEI rules allow.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, be advised I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and am in a VERY cynical mood. :cool:

I'm going to posit the theory that some So-Called Trainer who does NOT know how to long-line correctly perceived a Trainer who DOES know how to long-line correctly as having an unfair advantage, and proposed the rule "for safety reasons". Not enough people wrote in at the time (since most folks don't know how to long-line) and so it passed. :D That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! :D

tarragon
Feb. 25, 2007, 01:00 PM
...hmmm, War Admiral, your theory sounds suspiciously plausible ;)

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 01:05 PM
...hmmm, War Admiral, your theory sounds suspiciously plausible ;)

Y'know... The sad thing is, I've taken a few lessons from a really good classical dressage trainer and REALLY enjoyed it. And now that I can't jump any more, I'm constantly looking for new games to play with horsies... :D Dressage as a discipline has a lot of appeal. A LOT. But there are so many rules like this that (a) are completely nonsensical and (b) clearly don't have the best interests of the horse at heart that, just looking from the outside, I'm sorry to say I perceive dressage competition as completely wack. :( :( :(

Just my perception though, so don't take it seriously! :winkgrin:

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 01:07 PM
I think it is MORE likely that some INCOMPETENT long-liner caused chaos at some show, and they decided it was easier to ban it than to try to legislate doing it "properly".

But DO email Janine Malone. I have only had a couple of email interactions with her, but she was very straightforward and pleasant.

Equibrit
Feb. 25, 2007, 02:32 PM
Unfortunately the rules are written for the safety of the majority, not all of whom are BNTs. Shame they can't except the one person who cannot teach their horse to lunge, for whatever reason, however special they might be. USDF only allow lunging in designated areas, not in the warm up arenas. Not everybody using long lines would necessarily want to go round in circles, so - what are you suggesting that they allow? Bearing in mind they have to buy insurance for every show, which means that they HAVE to control what is allowed and where it is allowed.

Renae
Feb. 25, 2007, 04:39 PM
I still wonder why people who show breed shows are able to long line at their shows without causing disasters but for some reasons dressage people are imcompetant idiots when it comes to long lining? Makes no sense:no:

Montanas_Girl
Feb. 25, 2007, 06:29 PM
Maybe the safety issue is that, while the horse being worked on long lines is not any more likely to get loose than one on the longe, if it does get loose, there are TWO 20-40 ft ropes being drug behind it instead of the usualy one with an errant longer? Having seen what happens when a horse gets loose in a crowded warm-up with a longe line attached, I can only shudder to image what might happen if that same horse got loose with two lines! :eek: Unfortunately, the rules have to be passed to control the lowest common denominator - the people who are incompetent at just about everything!

siegi b.
Feb. 25, 2007, 06:39 PM
I don't quite understand why some folks on this thread get soooo up in arms over a simple rule that only applies at a show warm-up.

I don't quite agree with you, Renae, that "dressage people are incompetent idiots when it comes to that". (I wonder if you would say the same to the hunter/jumper or eventing folks who aren't exactly known for that expertise, either..?) Some actually know how to do it, but it's not a prerequisite to get a dressage horse going, as it is with driving horses. So you have your expertise with buggy horses and dressage people have theirs with riding horses.

Just another incompetent idiot who pays a driving person to long-line her youngsters.

oldbrownmare
Feb. 25, 2007, 06:49 PM
I still wonder why people who show breed shows are able to long line at their shows without causing disasters but for some reasons dressage people are imcompetant idiots when it comes to long lining? Makes no sense:no:

The rule applies to all USEF recognized shows including breed shows.

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 07:06 PM
The rule applies to all USEF recognized shows including breed shows.
No it doesn't.
There is nothing in the General rules about long lining.

The rule is in the Dressage chapter, so it applies to to Dressage shows, and Dressage Sport Horse Breeding. But it does NOT apply to breed shows, such as Morgan or Shetland.

Renae
Feb. 25, 2007, 07:06 PM
I don't quite understand why some folks on this thread get soooo up in arms over a simple rule that only applies at a show warm-up.

I don't quite agree with you, Renae, that "dressage people are incompetent idiots when it comes to that". (I wonder if you would say the same to the hunter/jumper or eventing folks who aren't exactly known for that expertise, either..?) Some actually know how to do it, but it's not a prerequisite to get a dressage horse going, as it is with driving horses. So you have your expertise with buggy horses and dressage people have theirs with riding horses.


I was being sarcastic :uhoh: Obviously people long line thier horses just fine at breed shows and no one dies. I have long lined at Arab shows when dressage shows were being held concurrently at the same facility and it was just fine. I've attended some wonderful long lining clinics given by dressage trainers. I like to long line a lot of my riding horses on non-riding days. IMO- this is really kind of a stupid rule, and implies that the dressage division and thos ewho participate in it would not be capable of riding around someone long lining a horse. The walk and trot 10 & under kids do it just fine at the breed shows, no reason why it would be a problem at dressage shows.

BTW- most of my experience has been with Saddlebreds. You ride them and drive them. Amazing concept, huh? And I'm, not sure what the frick this remark was about
Just another incompetent idiot who pays a driving person to long-line her youngsters. . :confused: whatever????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Renae
Feb. 25, 2007, 07:10 PM
The rule applies to all USEF recognized shows including breed shows.

As Janet pointed out it does not. The Andalusian division actually has long lining classes.

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:02 PM
The rule applies to all USEF recognized shows including breed shows.

Check again, no it doesn't. It is not a General rule - it is a Dressage rule. So Renae is entirely correct: at USEF rated Saddlebred, Morgan, Arab and Driving shows, we ARE permitted to long-line.

Edit: Sorry - Janet and I were posting simultaneously!

Equibrit
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:12 PM
Where is it written that if it happens at a Morgan, Saddlebred, Arab or Driving show that it is sensible or OK for a dressage show?

Renae
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:23 PM
Where is it written that if it happens at a Morgan, Saddlebred, Arab or Driving show that it is sensible or OK for a dressage show?

A bunch of you are concerned it would be a safety issue. Long lining, lungeing, driving and riding all happens to gether in the same ring at other horse shows, with juniors and novices and 55 & over riders sharing the same space, on a regular basis. At the many shows in the Saddlebred and Arab divisions I have been to I have never seen a wreck because of it. The concern is completely unfounded, we offer the example of the fact that breed shows permit and it regularly happens without incedent as proof to that.

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:31 PM
Where is it written that if it happens at a Morgan, Saddlebred, Arab or Driving show that it is sensible or OK for a dressage show?

Ummm, in the FEI dressage rules perhaps? :lol:

Would you care to state specifically what you have against it??

See, to me - and now remember I'm an outsider - Dressage has always held itself up as the absolute pinnacle of equestrian athleticism.

So one would ASSume that there would be a certain basic level of competence at a Dressage show, from the trainers at least! :D

From what I'm given to understand, most all European dressage trainers long-line, and quite a number of them even crosstrain their horses to drive (builds up a powerful back end).

So why are we different in America? Because it's cheaper and easier to spend $200 on a Pessoa rig and convince ourselves we're having the same effect (which we're not)??

I don't see the argument of two-lines-are-scarier-than-one as especially valid. I don't know any competent long-liners who EVER introduce a horse to long-lines without first thoroughly teaching it to be unafraid of the lines dragging off its back end/around its back legs. Using the outside line in various positions around the back end is what makes long-lining constructive. So a loose horse with long-lines on is probably BETTER trained and LESS likely to bolt than a longeing greenie.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:31 PM
It doesn't seem like it should be illegal as long as there is some space. At Saddlebred shows horses are long lined, driven etc. all over the place and there is no way Saddlebred people would ever let that sort of thing be outlawed. I will also say I can't think of any accidents either.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 25, 2007, 08:39 PM
USEF rule
DR 121.7

...
Only one lunge line is permitted only while lungeing. Driving or long lining is prohibited.
...


Wow that is so dumb! I with WA I won't be "doing" dressage either!

oldbrownmare
Feb. 25, 2007, 09:06 PM
No it doesn't.
There is nothing in the General rules about long lining.

The rule is in the Dressage chapter, so it applies to to Dressage shoes, and Dressage Sport Horse Breeding. But it does NOT apply to breed shows, such as Morgan or Shetland.

I stand corrected:D Since this is a dressage forum I assumed (and we know what that means!) the poster was refering to Dressage Sport Horse breed shows.

hoopoe
Feb. 25, 2007, 09:55 PM
However, breed restricted shows which offer Dressage divisions, Dressage ( DR) rules apply to the Dressage division / classes

Typically these are Arab and Morgan shows.

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:05 PM
However, breed restricted shows which offer Dressage divisions, Dressage ( DR) rules apply to the Dressage division / classes

Typically these are Arab and Morgan shows.
Yes, but ONLY to the dressage classes

AR 156 1. When cross entry is permitted between Dressage and other Arabian classes at a competition, DR121 applies only to the designated Dressage warm-up and competition areas, or when exhibitor is actually warming-up for Dressage class.
2. Horses entered in Open Dressage classes must comply with DR121.7.

siegi b.
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:56 PM
War Admiral and Aptor Hours - You come to the dressage board and then tell us that you would never become part of this community because of a rule that exists .... What are we supposed to say to that? What is the point you're trying to make?

And ok Renae, so you can do all those neat things when you're showing Arabs or Saddlebreds. Good for you! What is the point you are trying to make on this DRESSAGE forum?

I'm sorry.. I just don't get it.

flshgordon
Feb. 25, 2007, 10:59 PM
I don't really get why this is causing such an uproar? Honestly have none of you ever seen someone attempt to long line a horse that really doesn't know what they are doing? It's SCARY and having someone do that in an arena where people are practicing small precise patterns, very often not on the rail, it could be a recipe for disaster. Lunging by itself is 1000% easier than long lining and I for one would be pretty ticked if someone's horse got loose in the warm up because they didn't *really* know how to long line it. Lunging is easier and safer for the average person.

In breed shows I think people are more likely to be staying on the rail although personally I think the rule should be expanded to all breeds and disciplines IN the warm up arena. IF you want to go out in the field and do it, more power to you.

I'd rather just long line my horse at home and ride when I get to the show

War Admiral
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:05 PM
All we're trying to figure out is WHY this extremely illogical rule exists.

If the FEI dressage rules permit long-lining then why does USEF not??

Nobody's managed to answer that yet.

And so far, nobody has managed to convince me it's safety-related, either. "To promote good riding and training practices" is a sick joke. Clearly this proposal was submitted by someone who knows nothing about long-lining.

evermore
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:08 PM
Siegi B and Fishgordon, thank you! I had the same thoughts.

I even checked to see if I was on the wrong forum.

Janet
Feb. 25, 2007, 11:14 PM
War Admiral,

it appear that you make a distinction between "long lining" and "ground driving".

As someone who has not done much of either, I tend to use the two terms interchangably.

Could you please explain the distinction- I think that will clarify some of the discussion.

I don't know why the USEF rule is different from the FEI rule. But I don't think you are going to get the answer by just posting it here.

AGAIN I suggest you email Janine and ask her.

I would be willing to bet that some incompetent person really WAS a safety hazzard, and that triggered ther rule change, "fouling the nest" for the competent long liners. But I really don't know.

I am sure Janine DOES know, and would be glad to tell you.

(For instance, as an analogy, I have been told that is the reason placing pole are not allowed in Eventing jump warm up - becuase some idiot set them up on a half stride and crashed many years ago. Placing poles are now allowed for hunters and jumpers, but not for eventing.)

flshgordon
Feb. 26, 2007, 12:41 AM
All we're trying to figure out is WHY this extremely illogical rule exists.

If the FEI dressage rules permit long-lining then why does USEF not??

Nobody's managed to answer that yet.

I'll answer it---how about because people showing at FEI shows *just might* :rolleyes: be a little more capable than some of the people at USEF shows with the lower levels. Someone in training level sees an FEI rider do it and thinks....hey that looks cool, I should try it. Just went to a show today where there were some "creative" people in the warmup....I'm quite thankful there wasn't anyone long lining too.

And so far, nobody has managed to convince me it's safety-related, either. "To promote good riding and training practices" is a sick joke. Clearly this proposal was submitted by someone who knows nothing about long-lining.
We don't NEED to convince you that it's safety related WA...I think it's pretty obvious that it is even if the choice of wording is vague, but you are of course entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree with you.

vanjumper
Feb. 26, 2007, 09:16 AM
<snip>

AGAIN I suggest you email Janine and ask her.

I would be willing to bet that some incompetent person really WAS a safety hazzard, and that triggered ther rule change, "fouling the nest" for the competent long liners. But I really don't know.

I am sure Janine DOES know, and would be glad to tell you.






(by AllWeatherGal)

So, if you want to know WHY, take Janet's great advice "email Janine Malone, she can tell you the reason"

If you want to long line your horse, do it at home, before you load up.

If you want to get the rule changed, work together and submit a rule change request (the process is available to ALL USEF members in good standing).


There are your avenues to enlightenment War Admiral, if you really want to know so badly, email the appropriate people and ask.

But I suppose it's much more fulfilling to spout indignation to a board for a sport that you "wouldn't do."

canyonoak
Feb. 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
FEI Dressage Rules, article 428:

<< warm-up: same (as riding) except running martingales (with snaffle only) boots, bandages, ear muffs, and single direct side-reins (only when lunging, only with one lunge line).>>

Janet
Feb. 26, 2007, 11:46 AM
FEI Dressage Rules, article 428:

<< warm-up: same (as riding) except running martingales (with snaffle only) boots, bandages, ear muffs, and single direct side-reins (only when lunging, only with one lunge line).>>

Which is less that crystal clear.

It doesn't say long lineing is permitted, doesn't say it is forbidden,

And does the part about "only with one lunge line" apply only to side reins- that if you are NOT using side reins you CAN use "more than one" lunge line?

mbm
Feb. 26, 2007, 11:57 AM
k, well i am a "dressage" person and i agree with War Admiral 100%!!

i totally use long lining (aka double lunging) all the time and find it invaluable to training.

the idea that a horse is MORE dangerous when on a circle with 2 lines (1 being the outside rein) is just silly.

really i think "dressage" (in the US) is so afraid of something getting broken that we create many many silly rules.... mostly i think because "dressage" is the place many folks go when they are too scared to do anything else - and "dressage" needs to keep its rep as the "safe" discipline - so all the middle aged $$$$ keeps a flowin'...

;)

Reynard Ridge
Feb. 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
War Admiral and Aptor Hours - You come to the dressage board and then tell us that you would never become part of this community because of a rule that exists .... .

In the grand scheme of things, I have to question the real importance of being able to long line on the show grounds with regards to participation in the sport of dressage. I agree that the tools are terrific part of schooling your horse. My Pony lunges, long lines and ground drives and I use these tools and techniques as part of my training.

However, on any given day, I don't require any of their use. If I am going to a show, I just wouldn't even consider using any of them, mostly because I think it's rude to take up that much space in what is usual fairly limited warmup. Dissing an entire sport because you can't use one of the many tools at your disposal to warm up seems harsh.

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 26, 2007, 01:45 PM
In the grand scheme of things, I have to question the real importance of being able to long line on the show grounds with regards to participation in the sport of dressage. I agree that the tools are terrific part of schooling your horse. ... Dissing an entire sport because you can't use one of the many tools at your disposal to warm up seems harsh.

I was thinking about how to say something similar, except I don't really care if people don't want to compete if they can't long line or drive their horses in warmup.

To me, schooling dressage movements, developing horse and rider within one of the philosphies of 'dressage' and competing at recognized shows are legitimately different activities.

No reason you can't study and enjoy ballet even though you don't want to ever perform on stage. I don't think competition is the be-all of dressage. But ... if you do want to perform, you suck it up and go with the conventions and rules. I can't think of a decent safety reason why bell boots aren't allowed, or why NOT carry a whip in championship classes. Who cares of the horse wears a little fly hat, and to think that you can't put cotton in a hunter's ears but not a dressage horse seems ... well, awfully strict.

And about bits ... some of the new ones are kinder and lighter ... what's all the fuss if there's a little roller or not in the bean?

For that matter, why NOT let people ride in half chaps if tall boots are too expensive, or impossible to fit.

To me, competing is partly about executing a specified performance within the given constraints.

siegi b.
Feb. 26, 2007, 02:06 PM
mbm - you are so far out in left field it's not even a little bit funny. Safety while warming up before a competition is something not only dressage people want. Don't overwork your brain, but try to think of insurance requirements that have to be answered by show organizers, for example... :-)

flshgordon
Feb. 26, 2007, 02:10 PM
the idea that a horse is MORE dangerous when on a cirlce with 2 lines (1 being the outside rein) is just silly.


I am not suggesting AT ALL that a horse being long lined is more dangerous. But by the nature of the difficulty of it (yes some people just don't grasp it) there is a LOT more room for someone to do something stupid TO their horse (spook it, get it tangled up while yanking on the bit, flip it over, etc) while long lining than lunging.

The horse by itself it no more dangerous either way

slc2
Feb. 26, 2007, 02:58 PM
I don't think that the shows are really obligated to provide schooling areas for special techniques, just warmup areas. Longeing is a common warmup technique (that is still quite disruptive at times in a warmup area, and is restricted or banned at some shows, or must be done away from the main warmup areas).

Long lining and line driving are schooling techniques. If a horse needs to be long lined or ground driven to prepare it to go into a class at a show, as the original poster described (the horse is not fit to show unless this is done), it might be a good idea to wait to take the horse to a show til he does not require a special technique for warming up.

The more special requirements you have for when you show, the more you are likely to come into conflict with management, riders, horses and trainers. The more special needs you have when you show, the more likely you are to find that a given show ground cannot accomodate you.

Too, if you have a special warmup you must do, conditions can interfere. That hour long gallop may not be possible after the 2 hour gulley washer. That hand walk for a day before the class may not be possible if the rings are closed for setup. Even longeing can be restricted or stopped at a given show ground.

Anything special you need to do to make your horse fit to show can backfire on you just due to **** happens.

My own musings....Warmups are generally not large, and generally do not have enough room for all who want to use them. In addition, different schooling methods in the warmup area may upset horses who have not seen them. For example, having a person on the ground whip the horse's front legs to piaffe, caused my own horse to rear, bolt and tear off. One trainer was intensively schooling the horse from the ground and the horse repeatedly reared, scattering horses and riders in its wake in the warmup. Requiring a show management to allow you to longe line may seem in a different category, but it isn't really all that different(even though the two techniques are different).

I know it may upset you to hear that, but it's a special requirement you have, that I have never seen anyone else have to do at a show. Not in 40 years of being in dressage. If you feel you must ground drive, double longe or long line your horse at the show grounds to make it fit to ride, it might be a good idea to change that requirement, and come back when your techniques fit in better with the rules and the needs of other exhibitors.

Going to a show isn't just about what you want to do. Going to a show means you are around many other riders, perhaps hundreds or even a thousand horses and riders, all of whom deserve consideration and thoughtfulness. Many will be little kids, rank beginners or older folks who you are going to frighten or make feel unsteady. Some may be on green horses who aren't totally settled down at the show grounds. These people deserve a break. Unusual sights don't help them.

When you go to the show grounds feeling that the rules and the other riders are there to accomodate your needs, you're going to be unhappy, because it isn't going to work out well.

For those who are offended that the rules don't allow them to do whatever they please, I am not so terribly sad to hear you won't be showing dressage. I'd rather you didn't, frankly, if your attitude is that everyone needs to accomodate you.

There was a lady who said, 'Put slc's horse out later in the day, the hot sun bothers her horse less than it does mine', so some do not realize that just because they want to do something doesn't mean that they should get their way at the expense of everyone else.

Whatever the reasons for restricting or making it illegal, we are only guessing and people are putting up their own personal feelings about why. We don't know why the original rule was made, only can guess. It may have been that show management didn't want the hassle, or that some old crusty old cavalry guy said no way.

Unfortunately, it remains the fact that even if it were entirely legal, any show management can come up to and say, 'sorry, we cannot accomodate that here'. And yiou would be required to comply.

Wbeing longed, if the horse takes off, the handler has one line to handle, and one line to tangle up. I have never seen anyone handle two longe lines successfully when a horse takes off. It always causes more complication to the problem, and tends to create more of a panic reaction in the horse, than one longe line does.

Long lining is generally referrred to as long lining or ground driving when the person is behind the horse and the horse is going in straight or curved lines, and as 'longeing with two longe lines' or 'double longeing', when the person has the horse go in a circle round him, though usage of that term varies, and some people call longeing with two longe lines, 'long lining'....and some people call it a 'Nantucket Sleigh Ride'.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Feb. 26, 2007, 03:53 PM
Late to this train wreck, um, I mean discussion! :D

Now that I have been seduced by the Dark Side of Dressage (=classical ground work), sometimes I don't ride at all - sometimes I just work him on the ground. But I always warm up either free lunging or in hand or I just long rein. It would be nice to warm up by doing in hand. At my level of riding, where I am becoming painfully aware how my crookedness is affecting my horse - even slight crookedness! - working on the ground helps me warm him up where I can better be aware of these issues, and where my horse doesn't have to deal with my issues right off the bat "cold backed."

However, where I am, very few people do any of this. And from what I have seen of people lunging as warm ups at our rated shows, they are a Clear and Present Danger. It would be great to warm up the way you see fit, depending upon space considerations. But until these methods are as commonly taught as flying changes for hunters...I don't think it's safe.

Commander Cody
Feb. 26, 2007, 05:14 PM
Just in case someone thinks this has NEVER happened at a show I can tell you that it has. A few years ago, we had a near disaster at a show in Lexington Va, when someone decided (against the rules) that they needed to long line in a grass area above the rings up on the hill. The horse became very excited and quickly got loose from it's handler, and tore down the hill with the 2 lunge lines trailing, leaving much chaos in its wake. I believe at least one rider and/or horse was injured and things could have been much worse.

I lunge and long line my horses and have done so for many, many years, and I am certain that it is much easier to control a fresh or nervous horse with 1 line than it is with 2. Unless I had a really reliable and experienced horse, I would never be inclined to long line in a show situation (and if it were so experienced etc.. would I need to long line? probably not.)

siegi b.
Feb. 26, 2007, 06:14 PM
Commander Cody - the voice of reason....
Thank you!

Tamara in TN
Feb. 26, 2007, 06:32 PM
[QUOTE=War Admiral;2245597]All we're trying to figure out is WHY this extremely illogical rule exists.

If the FEI dressage rules permit long-lining then why does USEF not??

Nobody's managed to answer that yet.
QUOTE]

maybe some one from the USEF said "ohhhh that just looks so...well...saddleseat...let's just not have any of that ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: where as the European traditions of long lining are not so foreign to the FEI ?

Tamara in TN

canyonoak
Feb. 26, 2007, 07:17 PM
Where and how are you all stating that the FEI permits long lining at a show?

One poster says some rider huffed and puffed at a show in the US, claiming that 'the FEI says it's permissible" and now all of a sudden THAT is the FEI position in reality?

The FEI , I think, is quite clear: ONE lunge line.

Article 428 "lungeing only with one lunge line"

that's ONE. not two or three, or do whatever you want because you are European and know all there is to know about a horse.

One lunge line, one pair of simple side reins.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 26, 2007, 07:30 PM
War Admiral and Aptor Hours - You come to the dressage board and then tell us that you would never become part of this community because of a rule that exists .... What are we supposed to say to that? What is the point you're trying to make?

And ok Renae, so you can do all those neat things when you're showing Arabs or Saddlebreds. Good for you! What is the point you are trying to make on this DRESSAGE forum?

I'm sorry.. I just don't get it.

My only point is that it is a silly rule that is all. I guess somebody thought that dressage shows shouldn't allow long lining? Maybe dressage horses are just much more spooky than at breed shows...I dunno??

shiloh04
Feb. 26, 2007, 07:42 PM
i sure am sorry i started this thread, all i wanted to know was why its OK to lunge in a circle with one line vs two. no its not required warmup for me, and half the time i long line, half the time i lunge. its something i would have liked to have available and i was wondering why it wasnt, because in my mind, its no different than lunging with one line.

if i can find a way to delete this thread i will, because this is a freakin train wreck. i will email the woman suggested for my answer, as i am just curious as to why. i only do schooling shows, as i am still at training level and find rated shows a waste of money, frankly. at this past show, i showed HC because i dont even care about the ribbons, i just wanted a score and comments, things to work on from someone who didnt know us.

im sorry if you people think i came here to be angry, to be snotty about my "special requirements" which are in no way requirements, just a preference i have that honestly took up less room than anyone i saw lunging. this was my first dressage show in 2.5 years, and the first show since i have learned to long line. i had no idea it was illegal until a fellow competitor warned me to stop before i got caught. nothign more, nothing less. all i wanted to know was if anyone knew why, because it makes no sense to me.

YoungFilly
Feb. 26, 2007, 07:52 PM
Just in case someone thinks this has NEVER happened at a show I can tell you that it has. A few years ago, we had a near disaster at a show in Lexington Va, when someone decided (against the rules) that they needed to long line in a grass area above the rings up on the hill. The horse became very excited and quickly got loose from it's handler, and tore down the hill with the 2 lunge lines trailing, leaving much chaos in its wake. I believe at least one rider and/or horse was injured and things could have been much worse.

I lunge and long line my horses and have done so for many, many years, and I am certain that it is much easier to control a fresh or nervous horse with 1 line than it is with 2. Unless I had a really reliable and experienced horse, I would never be inclined to long line in a show situation (and if it were so experienced etc.. would I need to long line? probably not.)

I don't have any issue with lounging a horse, but usually there is an area to do it in.


Thank you for being reasonable. I can't imagine long lining a horse in a show situation. Truthfully, what we do in our barn is to do it in an enclosed paddock. Some upper level horses totally freak (long lining, or even lunging) at this because its been used to teach piaffe and passage a little to much and the result is a totally mental breakdown.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 26, 2007, 07:53 PM
Ha ha you are not snotty but I'm sure people think I am snotty LOL! If you ever came to a Saddlebred show you would see people LOng lining all over the place. It is nice to do something besides ride your horse and if we are at a show for many days a horse might need to be worked and long lining might fit the bill. You will also see horses jogging (pulling buggies) for excercise all over the place as well and we have almost zero problems.


YOUNG FILLY do some dressage horses really freak over long lining? Wow that is totally strange!

YoungFilly
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:06 PM
YOUNG FILLY do some dressage horses really freak over long lining? Wow that is totally strange!


Yes the do. I know from personal account (me, myself and I) that they can flip out on a lounge line or doing long lining. Thats why, at most shows they are put in places that are *not* in the warmup arena.

At really good show grounds they have pens for this purposes.

THAT is not to say either practice is wrong, its not. But it has its place, and that is not in the warmup ring.


AND, OF COURSE, doing it so the horse has a mental breakdown, is of course, WRONG. And a ring steward would be up your butt in about 3 seconds if someone thought you were being cruel.

shiloh04
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:06 PM
ive never seen a horse freak over long lines. not even my mare the first time we introduced her to them. in fact, i had to teach her to LUNGE by using long-lining in a circle. before that, she would go every which was around you, then take off to the outside of the circle and you were either going for a ride or letting go of the rope. shes much much better now, but slap a pair of long lines on her, and she KNOWS her job. she is MUCH more level headed on the long lines than on a lunge because of poor early training.

vanillabean
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:23 PM
Well clearly your mare is the perfect golden horse and everyone is making up these horrific entanglements that can happen with two lines.
Seriously though, the QH types often accept it pretty well, but get a hot, goosey youngster to accept the lines around the hocks can be an exercise in patience, dexterity, and agility of the handler. Things can go badly fast, or the horse can seem ok with it and then completely loose their cool.
That being said, as you have noticed it does make it easier to train them in the long run. They are easier to lunge and have more understanding when you go to get on them. Also, if you can get them to accept the feeling of stuff trailing around the hocks it is a good insurance policy should they ever get loose with a line of any kind attached.

Equibrit
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:36 PM
You don't necessarily have to take the line around the haunches if you are using a surcingle with rings/turrets.

shiloh04
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:50 PM
wow, that was pretty rude. for the record, my mare is qh...AND MORGAN, and she got the temprament from the morgan side, not from the QH side. i could go into great detail with examples of how hot she can be. I didnt go thru and read all the posts in the middle, im just wishing i hadnt started this whole thing. i personally havent seen a horse flip out over long lines. properly introduce them to your horse, and chances are...he wont flip out! imagine that.

and no, the line doesnt have to go around the haunches. that is how my mare long lines best, but i ahve also long lined her with a surcingle and both lines thru the turrets, as well as with just my saddle, inside line connected to the saddle then thru the bit to my hand, and outside line attached the same but run over the neck at the withers.

and no, long lining and ground driving are not the same. long-lining tends to be done in a circle, at a distance about equal to one who is lunging. ground driving is done behind the horse, just off to the inside of the circle/bend.


Well clearly your mare is the perfect golden horse and everyone is making up these horrific entanglements that can happen with two lines.
Seriously though, the QH types often accept it pretty well, but get a hot, goosey youngster to accept the lines around the hocks can be an exercise in patience, dexterity, and agility of the handler. Things can go badly fast, or the horse can seem ok with it and then completely loose their cool.
That being said, as you have noticed it does make it easier to train them in the long run. They are easier to lunge and have more understanding when you go to get on them. Also, if you can get them to accept the feeling of stuff trailing around the hocks it is a good insurance policy should they ever get loose with a line of any kind attached.

shiloh04
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:51 PM
and btw, does anyone know how to delete this thread? on some forums you can delete threads if you strted them. this is rediculous, going nowhere, and i cant figure out how to just delete it.

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 26, 2007, 08:55 PM
no shiloh, you can't delete threads ...

I'm sure you've seen lots of threads taken on lives of their own here. It's clearly a topic of interest to many other than yourself. If it's bugging you, just quit reading and let others fight amongst themselves ;)

flshgordon
Feb. 27, 2007, 10:02 AM
wow, that was pretty rude. for the record, my mare is qh...AND MORGAN, and she got the temprament from the morgan side, not from the QH side. i could go into great detail with examples of how hot she can be. I didnt go thru and read all the posts in the middle, im just wishing i hadnt started this whole thing. i personally havent seen a horse flip out over long lines. properly introduce them to your horse, and chances are...he wont flip out! imagine that.

and no, the line doesnt have to go around the haunches. that is how my mare long lines best, but i ahve also long lined her with a surcingle and both lines thru the turrets, as well as with just my saddle, inside line connected to the saddle then thru the bit to my hand, and outside line attached the same but run over the neck at the withers.

and no, long lining and ground driving are not the same. long-lining tends to be done in a circle, at a distance about equal to one who is lunging. ground driving is done behind the horse, just off to the inside of the circle/bend.


ok really, you need to stop taking this whole thing so personally. Just because a horse is introduced to ANYTHING correctly doesn't mean he/she is not still a horse. Horses are unpredictable and mix them with humans that may or (more likely)may not know what they are doing and you've got a whole range of unpredictability.

No matter what your opinion, there is a danger that some moron will do something like this IN a warmup and get someone (usually someone other than themselves) hurt. If you can't grasp that, I really don't know another way to explain it but the rule is there for a reason.

Whoever said that if you have to do this to a horse at the show to get it in the ring then maybe there is more work to be done is dead on. I for one prefer to lunge my horse 5-10 minutes before I get on but if I can't, I'll just get over it. If they tell me I can't lunge, I won't lose sleep over it.

asb_own_me
Feb. 27, 2007, 10:22 AM
I don't really get why this is causing such an uproar? Honestly have none of you ever seen someone attempt to long line a horse that really doesn't know what they are doing? It's SCARY and having someone do that in an arena where people are practicing small precise patterns, very often not on the rail, it could be a recipe for disaster.

How is it only "dangerous" for dressage riders but not for riders at breed shows? Many breed shows now have dressage classes (where riders are likely to be practicing off the rail), hunter over fences classes (where there might be a couple jumps set up)....and nearly all breed shows have equitation classes, where the majority of the entrants are 17 & under and will certainly be practicing things off the rail. In one warmup ring with jumps, patterns being performed, long lines, carts, the works. So how is it that all of our varied disciplines get along under one roof, so to speak, at breed shows, and we all just deal with it and make do?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Feb. 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
You don't necessarily have to take the line around the haunches if you are using a surcingle with rings/turrets.

I just assumed this was the way it would be done at a show, for safety's sake.

flshgordon
Feb. 27, 2007, 12:06 PM
Well I have been to many MANY breed shows in my time (ASB, NSH and Arabian) and I have seen very few people doing "patterns" in the warm up and halting in the middle like you would at dressage shows. I showed saddleseat Eq for years and don't recall doing a bunch of patterns in the warm up either...primarily because there wasn't any room. We practiced figures at home and memorized the pattern before the class.

And at arabian shows I have been at recently, the warm up jumps are not set in an arena where there are buggies warming up, nor are they warming up at the same time. The people at breed shows I have been to (within the last few months even) run things well enough to keep disciplines scheduled separately as needed.

Once again, if you and your horse can't deal with the rule--don't show dressage. The rest of us will exist perfectly fine without you.

This is such a ridiculous argument.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 27, 2007, 01:10 PM
You must not have been in the warm up ring prior to an equitation class that required patterns. What about a fine harness driving class....OH MY GOD HORSES PULLING CARTS NOT JUST LONG LINING HOLY MOLY!!

asb_own_me
Feb. 27, 2007, 02:22 PM
Once again, if you and your horse can't deal with the rule--don't show dressage. The rest of us will exist perfectly fine without you.

This is such a ridiculous argument.

I didn't say I couldn't "deal" with the rule. I am discussing it like everyone else on this thread. Why are you being so rude and dismissive to the other side of the argument - are you opposed to discussion and debate?

And the name calling (ridiculous) IS just that - ridiculous. And unnecessary.

mbm
Feb. 27, 2007, 03:23 PM
mbm - you are so far out in left field it's not even a little bit funny. Safety while warming up before a competition is something not only dressage people want. Don't overwork your brain, but try to think of insurance requirements that have to be answered by show organizers, for example... :-)

good to know that i am still not a conformer ;)

but in any case, i cant see that double lunging is MORE dangerous (ie less safe) than regular lunging. if regular lunging is allowed, so too should double lunging be.

the argument that an idiot might use 2 lines and endanger everyone is a false argument... becuase that same idiot could put their horse on one line and loose control just as easily.

having the outside rein really creates more control - not less.

i have no opinion about whether it should be or not be allowed in the warm-up - i DO have issue with folks thinking it is more dangerous than lunging.

and finally, it is a sad state of affairs when the insurance companies get to rule everything.

and Siegi - do you *ever* respond to someone (with a different POV as you) without saying something snide and rude?

Equibrit
Feb. 27, 2007, 04:11 PM
At USDF shows;

Lunging - usually takes place in a confined area designated for that purpose, away from ridden horses.

Long reiners tend to NOT want to go in circles and wish to remain in the warmup area with ridden horses. As the majority of these horses are ridden by amateurs/novices it's not a good idea.

Why is that so hard to grasp people?

Aptor Hours
Feb. 27, 2007, 04:14 PM
It seems to me that there is just as much risk actually RIDING the horse as long lining. I wonder if H/J should ban warm up jumps since that is way dangerous!

Equibrit
Feb. 27, 2007, 04:22 PM
Certainly they should ban jumps if they are in the dressage warm-up arena!
I'm sure it would not be a problem to long rein in a designated enclosed arena.
But - how many facilities have the luxury? You can't make a rule that only applies to certain venues.

Aptor Hours
Feb. 27, 2007, 07:01 PM
Certainly they should ban jumps if are in the dressage warm-up arena!
I'm sure it would not be a problem to long rein in a designated enclosed arena.
But - how many facilities have the luxury? You can't make a rule that only applies to certain venues.


I don't know but pretty much every show I go to is able to have long lining, driving, lunging and sometimes jumping. Maybe dressage shows are very tiny. I will be honest I really don't know. Just trying to understand a little bit about another riding sport.

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 27, 2007, 07:11 PM
Dressage warmups are kinda crazy in a different way than any other warmups. Well, eventing ... anyway, I guess everyone has its own crazy. But the expectations of behavior at classes that are predominantly rail are different than those at dressage shows.

But yes, space for warmup is often more limited than at other types of shows. In fact, recognized shows have minimum measurements for warmups depending on the number of arenas.

And the competition is typically one horse/rider pair in the arena at once. Generally, people are warming up until shortly before their ride time, so there's always a lot of coming and going in the arenas.

I'm not sure that holding two ground reins is more dangerous at a dressage show than any other show, but there are lots of things that are allowed in other types of competitions ... various types of bits, bridles, and other strapwear ... that are verboten in dressage competitions.

I wonder ... has ANYONE written to the rules person to find out the real reason, or is creating a train wreck just more fun?

Aptor Hours
Feb. 27, 2007, 08:04 PM
I have not written anybody to ask about this rule change since it totally has no affect on me other than curiosity. We usually show in large venues in coliseums and all and maybe we are just used to more room although it is not common to have lots of horses in the warm up ring I mean at least 20 horses going around. Is dressage like this? What kind of venues do they hold dressage shows. We also get to show indoors a lot. Are dressage shows frequently held inside? Again maybe dressage shows simply are so tiny that only one or two people can ride at the same time...this is all a mystery to me...LOL!!!!

flshgordon
Feb. 28, 2007, 11:11 AM
I didn't say I couldn't "deal" with the rule. I am discussing it like everyone else on this thread. Why are you being so rude and dismissive to the other side of the argument - are you opposed to discussion and debate?

And the name calling (ridiculous) IS just that - ridiculous. And unnecessary.

In what world is the word "ridiculous" name calling? Did I say YOU were ridiculous? Nope....I said the argument is ridiculous....and it is.

This whole thing went downhill when posters started in with "I would NEVER show dressage because they won't allow me to long line my horse". You (ASB) did not say that so it was not necessarily YOU that I am referring to. However there seem to be many of you that have never seen long lining go bad. I have....and it's ugly. At home, at shows, in a warm up, in a paddock....wherever. If the someone doing it doesn't really know how then it's a bad idea.

What I have a problem with is someone saying that the rule was not enacted for safety....well that's what it says so until someone proves otherwise then why all the fuss over not being able to long line?

flshgordon
Feb. 28, 2007, 11:13 AM
For those that asked, yes space is very often limited and lunging is sometimes not even allowed in the warmups because they are so small. People lunge outside in grassy areas by the trailer or a ring farther out from the show area if it's available.

9 times out of 10 you also can't lunge in any arena at a show where there is jumping. These are just common sense safety rules.

Janet
Feb. 28, 2007, 11:44 AM
I don't know but pretty much every show I go to is able to have long lining, driving, lunging and sometimes jumping. Maybe dressage shows are very tiny. I will be honest I really don't know. Just trying to understand a little bit about another riding sport.
Every discipline has a different warm up protocol.

You would think that the warm up for the show jumping phase of eventing would be similar to the warm up for straight showjumping. But they are not. Mostly not a question of rules, just "the way it is done".

If I try to warm up at a Jumper show the same way I warm up at an Event, I am a danger to myself and others, and everyone gets mad at me. And vice versa.

There is no logical reason they NEED to be different, but it is futile to argue that one or the other should change.

I think we need to just accept that the warmup environment, protocol and expecations at a dressage show are JUST DIFFERENT from the warm up at a saddlebred or Morgan (et.,) show

Aptor Hours
Feb. 28, 2007, 09:12 PM
Ok I guess that is why there are many types of riding. If we all wanted to compete in the exact same discipline it would be mighty croweded!!

siegi b.
Feb. 28, 2007, 11:25 PM
Aptor Hours - you definitely are blonde! :-)

draftlover92
Feb. 28, 2007, 11:50 PM
i use to long line and it worked fine but what you could also do what has worked just fine for us is lungeing in side riens. it's less confuseing :)

Aptor Hours
Mar. 1, 2007, 04:53 AM
Aptor Hours - you definitely are blonde! :-)



Yes I am blonde and thannks for noticing! I spend a lot of money keeping my hair just the right colors, eyebrow waxing etc. I don't know what that has to do with long lining but thanks for the compliment!

asb_own_me
Mar. 1, 2007, 09:54 AM
However there seem to be many of you that have never seen long lining go bad. I have....and it's ugly. At home, at shows, in a warm up, in a paddock....wherever. If the someone doing it doesn't really know how then it's a bad idea.


I have seen long lining go wrong.....as well as lunging....as well as riding and driving. My problem with this is that some of you are acting as though long lining is the only thing that can go wrong. Someone who's a shitty rider can easily tear up a warmup and disrupt everyone in it in a matter of seconds. Shouldn't those people be banned from the warmup? ;)

Schiffon
Mar. 1, 2007, 11:31 AM
I like long lining (mostly on a circle and I could restrict myself to that if it was allowed at dressage shows). However, one thing that no one has mentioned is that a difference between lunging and long lining is whether the line goes directly from the horse's head (bit, bridle, cavesson, whatever) to the handler's hand or if it goes through a fixed object on the surcingle or saddle then to the hand. If, for whatever reason, the horse gets turned so he is facing the handler (and this can happen in a show environment no matter how experienced the horse and trainer), the potential for losing control is much longer with long lines. A lunger can usually hold on and get back in position, or encourage the horse to come to them by astutely applied pressure on the line. Rarely would a horse run backwards away from a person holding a lunge line. However, with long lines, the handler can not use the lines to get the horse to come forward since more pressure in that situation causes the horse to back up. The only option then is to change your position relative to the horse which is more difficult in a chaotic environment and with 2 lines. For this reason, I long line only by myself and only with arena doors/gates closed so that I would have the option to drop the lines if necessary. There are very few show grounds where this condition would be available to me.

flshgordon
Mar. 1, 2007, 12:20 PM
Someone who's a shitty rider can easily tear up a warmup and disrupt everyone in it in a matter of seconds. Shouldn't those people be banned from the warmup? ;)

ABSOULTELY 100%, always, every time.

***edited to add....in no way do I think long lining is the only thing that could go bad in a warmup or other arena. There is a person in my barn that in no way, shape or form should be allowed anywhere near a lungline because they are THAT dangerous. I never thought anyone could have so much trouble trying to lunge a horse (and once again, there's nothing wrong with the horse, it's the person!) but I have finally decided never to be in the ring when he/she is lunging again. The last time it almost ended very badly with said horse crashing into mine on the rail. I'm done with that, I'll just wait til they're done...

I just think there are *less* problems with lunging

asb_own_me
Mar. 1, 2007, 03:04 PM
I agree with your last post, flshgordon....there are less problems with lunging. But problems are certainly not eliminated. Making it a blanket ban on long lining does not solve the larger problem of dangerous practices (under saddle, in lines, in harness) and perhaps if stewards (like the ones mentioned above) are already policing the ring and asking unruly pairs to leave, then the same practice could be applied to those who choose to long line. I would *think* the potential for embarassment would deter those who are incompetent. Then again....they probably think they are the best ones!!!

tewhann
Mar. 1, 2007, 07:17 PM
Well, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who actually know how to lunge correctly. Lots of people can't lunge correctly and they get away w/it because very often the horse knows how to lunge and is willing to go around in a circle even though the person in the middle is clueless.

Putting more stuff (ie the other rein) in the hands of someone who doesn't have much of a clue IS dangerous. AND by adding directional and other changes for the horse, the horse who would w/t/c in a circle forever doesn't know what's expected any more.

That's my .02 on it.

x
Mar. 2, 2007, 08:48 AM
I like long lining (mostly on a circle and I could restrict myself to that if it was allowed at dressage shows). However, one thing that no one has mentioned is that a difference between lunging and long lining is whether the line goes directly from the horse's head (bit, bridle, cavesson, whatever) to the handler's hand or if it goes through a fixed object on the surcingle or saddle then to the hand. If, for whatever reason, the horse gets turned so he is facing the handler (and this can happen in a show environment no matter how experienced the horse and trainer), the potential for losing control is much longer with long lines. A lunger can usually hold on and get back in position, or encourage the horse to come to them by astutely applied pressure on the line. Rarely would a horse run backwards away from a person holding a lunge line. However, with long lines, the handler can not use the lines to get the horse to come forward since more pressure in that situation causes the horse to back up. The only option then is to change your position relative to the horse which is more difficult in a chaotic environment and with 2 lines. For this reason, I long line only by myself and only with arena doors/gates closed so that I would have the option to drop the lines if necessary. There are very few show grounds where this condition would be available to me.


Yes, that is true. That is the one time that long lining can have less control. However, longing can wind up the same way if the horse turns AWAY from the handler and bolts. Either way, any dressage horse at a show being long lined should be well enough broke to advanced long lining that this would not happen...now, here in the US I can see that not being the case, but I also can see problems longing in the US.

Regardless, it does seem to me a silly rule for this particular discipline...originally, longing was used early on in dressage training, and it progressed through long lining and work in hand...those two being for the more advanced horses...so yes, the rule against long lining seems a little silly...but I suspect that the problem is that people would be trying it with a young/green/fresh horse...