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arabdressage
Feb. 10, 2007, 12:00 AM
Slight vent.... selfish, useless vent. ;)

A gal I have known for a couple of years (not well-- friend of a friend kind of thing) has recently acquired a horse who has had prior dressage training, and is interested in learning more about dressage. I was the logical person to call as I am the only one in our particular circle of friends who really does dressage. I am thrilled to help a dressage convert and have helped her with tack and clothing choices, sent her links to the 2007 tests online, lent her my own stack of tests to read (after forcing a promise that she never hold my mistakes against me, lol), and have agreed to videotape her lessons.

The woman she is taking lessons from is a friend of her family. I had never seen this particular trainer give lessons before, but had one VERY unpleasant (and unethical, on her part) experience with her in the past, which I shared with my friend. Other than that I went into meeting her completely un-judgmental.

However. I have watched one lesson and will be going out to tape another tomorrow. Even after only one lesson, a couple of things are SERIOUSLY (probably TOO seriously) bothering me.

First off: at the very first lesson, the trainer told my friend that she would be doing fourth level fairly soon. The horse, by the way, is an Appy-- and not a TB-y Appy. A very, VERY nice horse, but not (IMO) physically built to do fourth level. And... frankly, if MY trainer had told me at MY first lesson that I'd be doing fourth level in the forseeable future (I'm showing T1 and T2 right now), I'd instantly feel that she was blowing smoke up my @ss-- telling me something she thought I wanted to hear. That would completely turn me off, as I'd basically know it was a lie. There is NO WAY for her to know if I'll EVER make fourth level... much less SOON.

Secondly. The trainer expects my friend to start showing at first level in the spring. We are talking about a rider who hasn't shown in about ten years, and that was in saddleseat. She has been a trail rider ever since... occasionally thinking about barrel racing. NO real prior experience in dressage.

This seems totally unreasonable to me... but then again, maybe I'm just picky? I will not advance a level (or even a test!) until I am getting consistent scores in at LEAST the high 60's. Which means I don't expect to do first level until next year (and my horse has shown through second with prior owners-- he definately knows more than I do about dressage!) I feel like there is so much theory to dressage that my friend just isn't being taught. Her teacher hasn't said a word about impulsion or forward-ness... she just has my friend put her gelding into a "frame" (bump the nose down, basically) and do the movements. My lessons are so totally different... I work HARD in that hour. My legs hurt by the end. But my horse is more supple, obedient, engaged, and forward than when we started.

I am very happy that my friend has decided to do dressage and most certainly would NEVER say anything to discourage her. And I haven't mentioned any of my thoughts on her trainer other than the one incident in the past. I will most likely just keep my mouth shut and let her enjoy her lessons, and give advice and help any way I can. I just.... want to know if other dressage riders think I'm being unreasonable... or if my concerns are legitimate. Maybe I take my own riding too seriously and should lighten up? I just feel like there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between hunt seat, open show riding and dressage, and that this trainer is making my friend think that if she has all the tack and clothes right, and can perform the movements, she'll have dressage down pat.

Feel free to tell me that I'm nosy and nuts and should just mind my own business! I most certainly would NOT disagree...

chicki
Feb. 10, 2007, 12:29 AM
Oh my,
I can see why it would bother you. It would bother me too, especially because your friend really doesn't know any better, she is expecting the woman she is paying to know what she is doing!

I would have a talk with friend. Tell her that you are SO excited that she has decided to take up dressage, really excited for her ect, but that from what you know about dressage, this woman is really not good enough to be giving lessons. Tell her that while coach may be a great person, that is not what is important in the equation. Ask her to maybe come watch one of your lessons, maybe she'll notice the obvious difference.

Plus, if this woman is that bad, she must not have alot of successful students. Piont that out. That is a pretty good indication right there.
I feel for you though, I would be the same way.

atr
Feb. 10, 2007, 12:39 AM
I'd guess your friend will discover soon enough if she's overfaced when she gets her test scores, so I'd smile sweetly and stay out of it.

And I'm missing why an appy in particular can't do 4th...

lark_b
Feb. 10, 2007, 12:40 AM
I would not be so confrontational as to say that "from what you know about dressage, this woman is really not good enough to be giving lessons." Depending on the sensitivity of the friend here, that level of "judgement" may make HER defensive, because she chose this woman and nobody likes to hear they made a bad choice. At the same time I agree that it might be a good idea to say something, but what and how really depends on this woman's personality--is she a "smile and nod" type that seems like she's listening but ignores you anyway, or does she really take your opinions to heart? If you feel as though saying something might actually accomplish something, then great, be tactful--"hey, listen, I've been doing this dressage thing for a long time and I know it's helped me to see as many different trainers as possible, and to shop around a little before comitting to one... maybe you would be open to that?"

Sabine
Feb. 10, 2007, 01:15 AM
stick to your guns- you are on the right track and you have to learn the basics. It is the single longest and most challenging piece of riding good dressage.
Don't let you friend use you as a helper if you are better than her trainer whom she pays. Tell your friend the truth and distance yourself. The old saying always comes back in my mind: if you hang with dogs you'll get flees...

keep your nose up and maintain your devotion to thorough learning of dressage and HIGH scores!!

arabdressage
Feb. 10, 2007, 01:24 AM
I would NEVER say that the trainer isn't good enough to give lessons, or anything like that! And in reality, I don't think anything I say would change her mind-- not that she'll insist on staying out of stubbornness, just that I don't think I can adequately explain to her WHY I am bothered by her trainer's teachings. I don't have the capability to really explain dressage, at least not as I see it. So I don't imagine I'll really ever say anything to her at all. I do agree that she may potentially figure it out when she gets her test scores and comments, but maybe not! I do, ABSOLUTELY worry that she gets awful comments and decides to chuck it in... I know that in my own very first dressage show, the judge was VERY harsh (I have never received comments like that, to this day!) and I was really hurt by them, and wondered if it was worth continuing. But this was at Intro B! I can only imagine what would be said if *I* chose to show at first level right now-- it would make me VERY nervous, lol ;) I would really, REALLY hate to see her get hurt and want to give it up.

At any rate... ATR.... it's not the fact that he's an Appy (I myself had a GORGEOUS, 16.2hh App gelding who was 1/2 TB and had AMAZING movement, and is a fantastic dressage prospect), it's his conformation. He is built, well, like an Appy, only tallish. He's very cute, but not typical sporthorse built.

Thanks for the replies, all ;)

Kelly G
Feb. 10, 2007, 02:06 AM
arabdressage, maybe it would help your friend to have a "lightbulb moment" about her instructor if you gave her a good dressage instruction book or video to have a look at, and let her see the comparison. Might not help at all, but I can't think of any other ideas for you. Good luck with getting the point across without it getting in the way of your friendship, and I hope your friend does figure it out before she starts seeing disappointing comp results and gets disillusioned, like you said. :)
Kelly.

indyblue
Feb. 10, 2007, 03:04 AM
Oh how I can relate to your story.We have a 'classical trainer' from Australia come to Nz a couple of times a year.My closest friend started taking lessons from her on a horse that couldnt even manage a prelim frame.This horse was so on the forhand you wouldnt believe it.My friend had had lessons with other trainers but could never get anywhere because the trainers would only work on doing anything to get the horse off the forhand.So along comes the five day wonder woman clinician and the next time I see my friend she is trying to teach her horse changes and showing me her 'half pass'.She was riding with another lady who was tryng to get her prelim horse to passage.Oh the pain.It killed me and I stewed and stewed over it.It ate me up inside as I wanted to yell at my friend to get a grip on reality.I so wanted to tell her that she wasnt as good as she thought she was.Inside my head I was an A grade bitch. In the end I said nothing (god knows how but Im glad i didnt) and after about 5 clinics with this woman ,and no progress apart from atempting GP moves she gave up on her and came back from the dark side.I think its best to keep quiet as the whole thing could blow up in your face and sound like you are jealous etc....It will work itself out in the long run.

egontoast
Feb. 10, 2007, 06:10 AM
I think you should "mind your own business", to use your words. She is not a beginner rider and even if she is on the wrong track with the wrong trainer, she won't thank you, in fact she will probably think you are jealous of her "progress". She will believe what she wants to believe.

If it were me I'd gently extricate myself from the situation so I wouldn't have to watch or video the lessons. The most I would do is encourage her to watch other lessons with other trainers , maybe audit some clinics.

I would not say anything about the trainer, but that's just me. I learned from a really great mentor not to tear down the skills of other trainers or riders (even on the net- such as the trashing of riding videos that goes on so much here).

No good ever comes from it.

Hazelnut
Feb. 10, 2007, 07:24 AM
Agree with Egontoast.

Let her know when clinicians, etc are in town. Ask her to come video one of your lessons, so she can see how your trainer approaches things. Be nice, and be prepared to offer suggestions if this trainer situation does not work out for her.

kaluha2
Feb. 10, 2007, 07:35 AM
It has taken some time and I have had to bite my tongue more times than I care to count but some really do not want to know the truth and would much rather be stroked. Otherwise you'll risk getting the rep of being a ***** know it all. Ask me how I know this. LOL!!!

Bite your tongue, shut up, and do your own thing. They really do believe what they want to believe especially if they have gotten a ribbon or two which, as we all know, instantly makes them the top rider in the nation.

tarragon
Feb. 10, 2007, 07:36 AM
I might invite her to watch one of your lessons and see if she is at a point where she can see the difference, but if not I would simply wait until she actually does show and let her scores and test sheet make a statement. At this point she simply might not know enough about dressage to be able to tell the difference.

People can be fiercely loyal to their trainers and I'm afraid if you try to enlighten her you would end up being the bad guy. It is a difficult situation.

yankeeclipper
Feb. 10, 2007, 07:50 AM
I also sgree with Egontoast. Some lessons are better learned by the individual.

brightskyfarm
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:01 AM
Tact is required here. Invite her to come with you to some dressage shows; and along with all the other suggestions given to you here on how to subtly introduce her to the other training techniques, I'm sure she will be able to make her own comparisons. On the appy issue, I have a tb/appy that has competed well at the upper levels, her sire at 4th level -- its probably more an issue of the individual horse's ability, rather than the breeding as I know some TB's that trip over their own feet; but your friend won't discover that until she reaches her own enlightenment. You are in a difficult situation, but not an impossible one --- you can open her world through many other means than just *words* -- experience is the best teacher.

lowroller
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:06 AM
I think you can only mind your own business, but if it makes you feel any better, we have probably all been in this boat!

Probably everyone has at least one of these coaches in their area - where an adult am with an average horse, and average skills (which would be most of us, I think..) can go and hear how they are going to fly up the levels, horse has FEI potential, etc. etc. etc.

AND - dare I say it - I think some of the trendy clinicians that are touted as being "GREAT with beginners - can work magic with ANYONE!" are popular because they take this same exact approach. What insecure rider is not pumped when they do some advanced move in a clinic with a "master" - when their boring old coach at home just makes them work on connection/throughness on a circle! Obviously coach is lousy, clinician recognizes the true talent within.

(Clinician is really in a win-win situation too, as they don't have to follow through - but are very likely to get another wad of $$$ from rider to "work wonders" when they are through town again, 6 mos. later...)

In any case - what will probably happen is:

Your friend will not end up showing, as her training will be too "classical" to be appreciated in the ring. Or, she might try first one time, bomb, and reach the same conclusion. Besides that, she will point out to you that judges only reward gaits and flash, and have a breed prejudice against her horse. She will shortly be "schooling PSG" and above.

To your eyes, it may look like she is puttering around in a shuffly trot and 4 beat canter, with a strung out horse drifting here and there around the ring. However, if you were as educated as her, you would realize that this is called "lateral work", and you only think the horse is strung out because you are used to seeing all of the BTV, short necked horses that are winning in that cesspool known as "the show ring". You don't appreciate her gaits because you think DAP'ping freaks are better than horses with pure trots.

If things go REALLY well - she will start coaching other beginners to dressage on their off type breeds. Because really, she is such an inspiration. She is someone who resisted mainstream pressure to show, buy flashy horses, put the circus ahead of the art...and worked with the pure, classical beauty that is DRESSAGE...

AllWeatherGal
Feb. 10, 2007, 09:43 AM
FWIW, I did have a very well-respected instructor tell me after my first lesson with her that she would have me showing 3rd level w/in a year if I could ride with her (on HER horses) 3x a week. I didn't believe her then, but after the progress I've made NOT being able to ride with her that often ... I believe her now.

MYOB.

I've found it's difficult to "mentor" someone as enthusiastically as you started doing w/out being disappointed when they don't follow your guidance and have opinions of their own that seem way off base.

Give yourself a lot of credit for helping get a friend of a friend started, offering so much of yourself, and asking here instead of blurting out your feelings to her. Stay as connected (or not) as you feel comfortable. If she needs help when she's disappointed (as we all are), and you can do it, GREAT. If not ... that's okay, too. Not everyone of us can learn from others' setbacks and reality checks.

Rockfish
Feb. 10, 2007, 09:57 AM
I can see why you are bothered. If this trainer pushes your friend to go to high to fast, and her scores suffer, then it might severely hurt your friend's confidence.

Maybe one day you two can have a lunch date, and you can watch some videos of 1st and 4th level tests, but make it seem like your watching it "for fun". She may decide after looking at them to start lower.

Elegante E
Feb. 10, 2007, 10:27 AM
I've just gone through the opposite situation. Have a long time aquaintance who left my coach because her "new best horsy friend" didn't like the coach and didn't get along with her (btw, NBF didn't train with coach, doesn't have a decent coach herself, but thought she was better/knew more than coach). So aquaintance had to go without a coach for several months because there was no one as good as this coach nearby. She finally went back to training with the person she left to train with my trainer (her current trainer is someone she told me just last spring wasn't as good as my trainer).

I guess it just depends on the person as to whether or not the truth will help or just cause a rif between you two. I find that phrasing things like, "huh, my trainer does this first", or "that's not what this book says". If the person doesn't pick up on it that way, then they're dense and don't want your advice/help.

Keep venting here! It's safer ;)

arabdressage
Feb. 10, 2007, 03:00 PM
Thanks everyone, I do feel better ;) I had no real intention of saying anything to her-- for the record, my true "agenda" here is that SHE have FUN and LEARN-- it's just good to be able to say something about my concerns to SOMEONE, lol!

EqTrainer
Feb. 10, 2007, 03:46 PM
Here.. I'll tell you. Mind your own business.

Unfortunately, this is part of the learning curve that most people have to go thru. It's inevitable. Nothing you do or say can change it. Hopefully she will cycle out of it quickly but there's no telling. Some people stay there forever.

R D Lite
Feb. 10, 2007, 03:57 PM
First off: at the very first lesson, the trainer told my friend that she would be doing fourth level fairly soon. The horse, by the way, is an Appy-- and not a TB-y Appy. A very, VERY nice horse, but not (IMO) physically built to do fourth level

Hey, let's give the trainer the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when she said "soon," she was speaking in the geological sense. :D

Seriously, though, yes, you will have to chill out a bit. This is the kind of thing that people need to discover for themselves, generally. Oh, and since my horse died I've been riding an Appy at our barn who does not exactly scream "dressage" while he's standing in the barn aisle--but under saddle it's a whole different story. We all know that dressage can really transform some horses, so withhold judgment on that count.

citydog
Feb. 10, 2007, 04:33 PM
Personally, if I took up a new discipline--say, barrel racing or something about which I knew very, very little--I'd *totally* want my friend (or friend of a friend) to *tactfully* say something to help me. No, "the person you've chosen to ride with sucks!" wouldn't be appreciated, but a discussion of theory over lunch, or a suggestion to try a lesson with *their* instructor, or a video night, or even just a genuinely stated, "I'm a little concerned that you might do better with an instructor who did things a little differently, and here's why."

It's all in how it's delivered. You can be all snotty and know-it-all superior and alienate, or you can introduce the idea that from your point of view maybe there are other ways to do things that might be more successful in the long run. Don't present it as "you're a total f*ckw*t if you continue with that instructor, and you don't know enough to know better, so I'm going to save you", as that just makes people defensive.

You can't force her to do things differently, but some people actually *do* want to learn and don't need to "learn the hard way", and would appreciate a little guidance.

Said carefully, they can take what information they want and no one gets alienated, and you feel better for at least having said something. And I'd appreciate you as a friend for it (especially as it might save me having to do lots of retraining, stress on my horse, wasted lesson money, embarassment in the show ring, etc.). And it's good for the sport.

Tact, people, tact.

December
Feb. 10, 2007, 04:56 PM
I would guess also that she would be unable to tell the difference between correct work and what she is learning. In the early stages it can be very difficult, and showing her videos and correct work will likely not have an impact as she just won't see it. I'm in the keep your mouth shut group. If she ever does show, the judge will set her straight.

ania
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
arabdressage, maybe it would help your friend to have a "lightbulb moment" about her instructor if you gave her a good dressage instruction book or video to have a look at, and let her see the comparison. Might not help at all, but I can't think of any other ideas for you. Good luck with getting the point across without it getting in the way of your friendship, and I hope your friend does figure it out before she starts seeing disappointing comp results and gets disillusioned, like you said. :)
Kelly.

or instead of handing her a book-- say hey, let's go audit this clinic, "such and such trainer is really awesome" or even ask her to go ride in a group lesson at a clinic together (or even do privates). sometimes it takes someone outside of what you know to really shed some light onto you and your horse.

OdhinnsMom
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:11 PM
I also sgree with Egontoast. Some lessons are better learned by the individual.

I think this is a great idea :yes:. If she doesn't notice a difference, then wait until she does notice a difference... or buy her dressage book that explains some of the theory behind correct dressage (or a video) for a present. Then...let her find her own way.

Sometimes, the only way to learn is to make mistakes. Thank god our horses are so forgiving... :)

merrygoround
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:58 PM
Break the bank and give her a gift subscription to Dressage Today. They have a lot of good articles by a lot of good trainers. :yes:

Listening to your description of her present trainer reminds me that the "great pretenders" don't roost in my neck of the woods only. :lol: :lol: :lol:

murphyluv
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:17 AM
I'm with the "don't say anything about the trainer" camp. Seeing as how you don't know this person that well, you may not truly know how she would react. What you can do, as most people have mentioned, is push for her to see things outside of what her trainer is teaching her (correctly or incorrectly). If you go to a clinic, ask her if she wants to go. If you go to a show, whether you are riding in it or not, ask her if she wants to go.

Someone already said it, but even if she gets pisspoor scores at a show (if she shows) her trainer and herself could totally blow it off. BUT as you have already given her YOUR tests that helps- she can have that in her mind as to what kinds of things a judge might say- and the more educated she gets- she'll understand why. If that jibberish just made sense.
Just try to educate her w/out her realizing what you are doing.. :)

Reynard Ridge
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:42 AM
I'm with the "don't say anything about the trainer" camp. Seeing as how you don't know this person that well, you may not truly know how she would react. What you can do, as most people have mentioned, is push for her to see things outside of what her trainer is teaching her (correctly or incorrectly). If you go to a clinic, ask her if she wants to go. If you go to a show, whether you are riding in it or not, ask her if she wants to go.

Just try to educate her w/out her realizing what you are doing.. :)

:yes: VERY hard to tell people what they are doing is 'wrong.' They tend to get defensive. She needs to figure it out for herself.

slc2
Feb. 11, 2007, 10:11 AM
Mind your own business. You offered to tape her lessons. DO that, and let her figure out the rest.

As someone who has done all the riding she has done, there is no reason why she can't show first level next year, but it's entirely possible that her riding experience sounded very different to the trainer than it did to you - if someone really was a very experienced barrel racer and saddle seat rider, they SHOULD elarn dressage fairly fast.

A person who has barrel raced might be far more relaxed than the usual adult beginner, and relaxation is the big thing that holds adults back. A person who has showed saddle seat might be quite used to showing and be able to do far more at a show than an adult who has never showed. Again, relaxation. Too, she must be fairly flexible if she's done both western and saddle seat. And fortunately, western riding usually ecounrages a posture that translates easier to dressage than the typical 'forward seat' many people learn for the hunters. SOme of those folks will be struggling to 'unlearn' the hunter seat for years and years and years of dressage lessons.

First level isn't that big of a deal. It's just walk trot canter and a little easy leg yield. And there is certainly no reason why her horse can't do fourth level, regardless of what it looks like. Fourth level is not that hard, and the shows around there might not really be all that competitive. There are tons of 'housewife' 4th level horses that aren't a bit built for it, and they go around and do the work and score fairly nicely.

Maybe it bothers you because you're only showing training level...I don't know. But riders with experience in other types of riding should not be discounted. Bernie Traurig learned to do Grand Prix dressage in 11 weeks (trained horse, daily lessons, and already a strong seat from doing the jumpers), and a poster here who had just done pack trips years and years ago learned up to 2nd level very quickly, if his own description is accurate.

Of course, it's also possible the trainer is just ignorant or deceiving her, but that's not your problem.

My suggestion? Don't tape the lessons, and keep your involvement very distant. You're headed for a crash - soon - and you're going to lose at least one friend at the end of it.

Posting Trot
Feb. 11, 2007, 11:30 AM
Not to sound too zen-y or anything like that, but there are many paths on the road to enlightenment, even if the enlightenment is dressage.:lol:

You have done a lot of work in dressage, and so you know that there's a lot of training and understanding that go into doing the movements.

Your friend may not have arrived at that point yet, and your telling her that there's a lot of training and understanding is not the same as her knowing it.

From her point of view, as a newbie, why *wouldn't* she go to a trainer who's telling her that she'll be doing 4th level soon? She doesn't know that that is unrealistic; but again your telling her that it's unrealistic will likely not have a positive result.

My feeling is that unless the trainer is advocating doing something truly unethical or illegal then you should keep your mouth discreetly shut, *unless* the rider asks for your opinion.

If you can do that while helping her by video-taping, and perhaps inviting her to your lessons, informing her about clinics etc., then great. If not, then you should politely bow out.

Good luck.

EqTrainer
Feb. 11, 2007, 11:42 AM
slc is right, you never know how quickly someone might learn.

I did a clinic once where I taught a woman to post properly the first day and then sit properly the second. By the morning of the third day, she was amazingly competent, for someone who could barely stay on the horse three days before. What was the secret? Well, she totally "got" the way I teach, and she had a beginners mind but had been around horses for years so she was very comfy. She never questioned anything I told her to do, consciously or subconsciously. She just did it and paid attention to how it felt. She was very relaxed and was also an athletic person who had good control of her body. She was a blast to teach, because I was able to just layer one concept onto the next one as she got them. It was really funny to see the expressions of her "friends" who were thinking she was going to barely get thru, etc. etc. I would love to have been able to keep teaching her, it was so gratifying!

atr
Feb. 11, 2007, 02:11 PM
Eqtrainer, one of my stepsons is like that. It just kills me he's not interested enough in all the other aspects of riding to take it further. My old trainer was on the verge of kidnapping him...

And to the OP, you probably also got your friend's interpretation of what the trainer told her, too... My trainer tells me that we (me and my appy :)) are perfectly capable of moving up the levels, and that of course I could get my bronze before I'm 50. I could interpret this in a number of ways depending on how optimistic I was feeling at any given moment!

arabdressage
Feb. 11, 2007, 02:52 PM
Lots and lots of good points everyone, thank you all!! :D

SLC2, just a couple of things... she has NEVER barrel raced, only THOUGHT about it as a goal. She has trail ridden off and on for the last 10 years, and showed saddleseat as a teen (she is mid-20s like me). And if you are trying to imply that I am jealous, lol.... nothing could be farther from the truth ;) I LOVE my trainer, and I LOVE the way she makes me work, and I know not everyone wants to WORK for results, but I enjoy the WORK more than the RESULTS, in a lot of ways. So there is absolutely nothing for me to be jealous of... would I rather work my way through Training level getting good scores and good comments, or dump myself and my horse in First level and be slammed??? What do you think?

And.... IMHO... there is more to First level (or Training level!) than just "a little walk, trot, canter and leg yield". That's just what I was concerned about earlier, that her trainer is teaching her the movements without teaching her how to keep her horse balanced, forward and submissive. Any newbie with reasonable confidence can walk/trot/canter and do "a little leg yield", but does that mean they'd score well at First? Not in my experience. But perhaps yours is different than mine!

But, again, thank you so much for the point of view you offered! Gave me a lot to chew on!

tempichange
Feb. 11, 2007, 03:48 PM
And.... IMHO... there is more to First level (or Training level!) than just "a little walk, trot, canter and half pass".

While I don't agree with SLC's disemination of the levels, first level is leg yield not half pass.

Jaegermonster
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:03 PM
Ok here's the thing:
You can take a friend (or two) with limited knowlege of horses and limited riding experience,"encourage" their conversion to English riding, assist them in leasing horses, assist one in buying a horse (look at several for free), refer them to a good trainer, introduce one to your hunt (where they have a blast and become members) and encourage them to show, where you then continue to knock yourself out in your efforts to help them and also to have fun, only because you think they are your friends.
Then you find they (whom you introduced to each other) are stabbing you in the back at every corner all over the horse show and the barn running you down saying you think you know everything and on and on and on. And you hear this from people that you know all over the horse show who they don't know you know who have overheard all this. And then you happen to overhear and witness it.

Then when you call one of them on it they scream at you and slam the phone down and refuse to give you the time of day for months, in spite of a christmas card and other efforts to mend at least part of the fence. This person who was called on it also lives about 10 minutes away and does not even spit on your house that they ride by three times or more a week, much less call you or even an email to check on you since you are injured. The other person has actually been very sweet to you since your injury, but I am still keeping things at arms length, I have learned and will not get in that position again.

I have learned from my experience and will never ever go to so much trouble to help someone or include them in things ever again.

So my point is, is all of this worth your friendship, and is is worth all the drama that will result?
No it's not so keep your mouth shut do your thing, beat them at the horse shows and let them deal with their own thing.
Some people can't benefit from other mistakes and have to do it all the hard way so let them.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack, but I guess it was vent sort of (and I have to admit it felt good). So maybe you are one of those that can learn from others mistakes ;) learn from mine

kaluha2
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:05 PM
Actually, this is what SLC said:

" First level isn't that big of a deal. It's just walk trot canter and a little easy leg yield. "

neVar
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:39 PM
just ignore it and mind your own beeswax about what she'll be showing. (and yes i totally get why this bothers you)

UNless she SPECIFICALLY asks you directly something along the lines of "what do you think i'm ready for"


But you have some time now for you AND her to maybe spend sometime watching video's shows of horses at different levels Walter Zettl's are always popular and fun fun for a movie night!

egontoast
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:56 PM
The OP said this on page one so she probably does not need to be beaten over the head for several pages!;)



Thanks everyone, I do feel better ;) I had no real intention of saying anything to her-- for the record, my true "agenda" here is that SHE have FUN and LEARN-- it's just good to be able to say something about my concerns to SOMEONE, lol!
__________________

Aptor Hours
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:58 PM
ok mind your own business. Who cares ...really who cares!

Aptor Hours
Feb. 11, 2007, 05:04 PM
I guess thinking and reading what you said I hope that with friends like you she will go back to riding Saddle Seat and really have some fun!!

arabdressage
Feb. 11, 2007, 06:53 PM
Actually, this is what SLC said:

" First level isn't that big of a deal. It's just walk trot canter and a little easy leg yield. "


Sorry about that, was in a hurry typing (heading out to meet my hay guy) and didn't look back at her post. But... you get the idea ;)

Aptor Hours... if what I had to say was so ridiculous and such a waste of time, why'd you even bother reading it, and then thinking more about it-- enough to reply TWICE? :D And it appears you don't think much of dressage (your statement "with friends like you she will go back to riding Saddle Seat and really have some fun!!" certainly makes it sound that way) so why even bother replying to something on the dressage forum?

Don't mean to sound snippy, but you certainly make it sound as if I'm doing something mean ("friends like you") and that is most definately NOT the truth.

arabdressage
Feb. 11, 2007, 06:56 PM
Oh, and Jeagermonster... I have SOOOOOO been there. I mean, really REALLY been there. So I totally feel your pain and offer great sympathy! And no.. you aren't hijacking my thread, you offer a very valid point of view ;)

vanheimrhorses
Feb. 11, 2007, 07:24 PM
let her go to a show she will see how a real dressage horse is suppossed to go and a real trainer train and the light bulb will go off

Aptor Hours
Feb. 11, 2007, 09:56 PM
Sorry about that, was in a hurry typing (heading out to meet my hay guy) and didn't look back at her post. But... you get the idea ;)

Aptor Hours... if what I had to say was so ridiculous and such a waste of time, why'd you even bother reading it, and then thinking more about it-- enough to reply TWICE? :D And it appears you don't think much of dressage (your statement "with friends like you she will go back to riding Saddle Seat and really have some fun!!" certainly makes it sound that way) so why even bother replying to something on the dressage forum?

Don't mean to sound snippy, but you certainly make it sound as if I'm doing something mean ("friends like you") and that is most definately NOT the truth.

Next time I will condense what I write. My you are critical aren't you! You also asked that you be told to mind your own business...whatever...just makes me glad I don't compete with dressage people.

arabdressage
Feb. 11, 2007, 10:05 PM
whatever...just makes me glad I don't compete with dressage people.

And you refer to ME as critical ;)

Sabine
Feb. 11, 2007, 10:21 PM
And you refer to ME as critical ;)

no worries- let it go. Your thread is a good one- because it happens to many of us- that friends or acquaintances are becoming intrigued with dressage and we feel compelled to help out. It has happened to me and I have really made a decision that I will gladly talk about good tack, good horses, good trainers. But I will NOT be present for bad trainers, bad tack and bad horses.
I will not be drawn into someone else's life to that degree.

Again- you seem to have good instincts - a good trainer and a good horse...keep up the good work and accept the fact that you can't save everyone!

papony
Feb. 12, 2007, 12:26 AM
"4th Level is not that hard...." really??? I didn't get the memo....
WoW! I was pretty excited about winning 2nd at Dressage at Devon in the 4th 3 and then the USDF Regional 4th Level Championship....and here I learn from you that its easy. My trainer and I worked for years to develop my horse and I to that level..... but then maybe I'm not as gifted a rider as you obviously are....or maybe I just don't have one of those "housewife dressage horses" you think are so easy to ride.....

Sabine
Feb. 12, 2007, 12:30 AM
"4th Level is not that hard...." really??? I didn't get the memo....
WoW! I was pretty excited about winning 2nd at Dressage at Devon in the 4th 3 and then the USDF Regional 4th Level Championship....and here I learn from you that its easy. My trainer and I worked for years to develop my horse and I to that level..... but then maybe I'm not as gifted a rider as you obviously are....or maybe I just don't have one of those "housewife dressage horses" you think are so easy to ride.....

Papony- I think you are attacking the wrong person- Arabdressage is in the same boat you are- not as far but working on it. Her friend is the one believing that 4th level can be done in 3 months. Go easy!

papony
Feb. 12, 2007, 12:47 AM
Sabine -

I was quoting and responding to slc2's response from yesterday. I have no beef with anythig that arabdressage said and in fact can sypathize with her. We have all been there.

Sabine
Feb. 12, 2007, 01:08 AM
Sabine -

I was quoting and responding to slc2's response from yesterday. I have no beef with anythig that arabdressage said and in fact can sypathize with her. We have all been there.

Oh sorry dear- I have not been diligently reading the whole thread - especially SLC2's response...it sounded like you were addressing arabdressage- since she was the one posting before you.

Patch
Feb. 12, 2007, 09:15 AM
Oh sorry dear- I have not been diligently reading the whole thread - especially SLC2's response...it sounded like you were addressing arabdressage- since she was the one posting before you.

Oh its just the usual...the minute SLC2 posts on any thread someone (or a few) jumps on her usually derailling the OP!

Jaegermonster
Feb. 12, 2007, 06:27 PM
Oh, and Jeagermonster... I have SOOOOOO been there. I mean, really REALLY been there. So I totally feel your pain and offer great sympathy! And no.. you aren't hijacking my thread, you offer a very valid point of view ;)

Good I am glad you took my relating of that story exactly in the way I intended it. Hope it helps.

patch work farm
Feb. 13, 2007, 10:45 AM
I think you've chosen the right thing to do (and the high road), she will find out soon enough that she isn't where she needs to be. I think it is sound advice to have her watch your lessons (under the guise of videoing if necessary) or take her to watch clinics to see that it is "different".

I have found that many people ask my advice about things and then go do what they want or think is right anyway...I no longer waste my breath.

I have a friend that is now competing in second level classes with me and will "throw down the gauntlet" to "go ahead and try to beat me" in classes, my consistent answer is, "I do not try to "beat" anybody, just myself.
The last class we were in, I placed ahead (by one) and again got, "nice job, beating me"...that is not why I do this, it is to measure my accomplishments and see if all the $$$ I pay my trainer is paying off. I will say, my joy did come when I saw the other test that said, "you have the tricks down, go back to the basics" and my test said, "great basics, the rest will come". To me if you don't have the basics down, moving ahead is short changing you and your horse. I also felt it was a great compliment to my trainer (especially since he has been trying to bang the basics into my head for 15 years-FINALLY, she got it...LOL!!!)

JGF
Feb. 13, 2007, 12:50 PM
What a dilema and how hard it must be to watch...

Just a thought, you might recommend or even give to your friend a few of the USDF required reading texts like The Principles of Riding and Advance Principles of Dressage (english interpretations of German National Equestrian Federation textbooks).

These books are great and easy to digest, and make it really clear how and why the basics like looseness, rhythm, throughness are so critical. If you just "gift" them you are being super supportive of her interest in dressage, and if she does read them, she will at least have a basis for understanding why she gets terrible scores if she comes out 4th level...

This seems to be a modified MYOB approach since you aren't being confrontational but at least you are giving her the tools to discover more quickly the holes in her current training program. Perhaps if she reads them you and she can have meaningful conversation about whether the lessons are going well based on the principles in the texts.

Just a thought!

jgf

swgarasu
Feb. 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
"4th Level is not that hard...." really??? I didn't get the memo....
WoW! I was pretty excited about winning 2nd at Dressage at Devon in the 4th 3 and then the USDF Regional 4th Level Championship....and here I learn from you that its easy. My trainer and I worked for years to develop my horse and I to that level..... but then maybe I'm not as gifted a rider as you obviously are....or maybe I just don't have one of those "housewife dressage horses" you think are so easy to ride.....

First off, congratulations on your accomplishment. But most people will never show at Devon, and that doesn't mean they aren't doing dressage. And I agree with slc2. 1st level is not that hard, it's something most intermediate level riders on a decently trained horse (and I'm not necessarily saying trained in dresssage either) could do. They won't win at Devon, but they can do the movements. They won't be in a perfect frame and will have some bobbles, but they could get through the test, and would probably score in the 55-60% range. Is that a good score? Of course not. But it is "passing" in that the movements were performed in a sufficient or satisfactory way. Sometimes we have urealistic ideas about what an average 1st level horse/test is. It doesn't look like the winning ride at Devon. It may not be pretty, but neither is seeing a horse that's been trained to death being shown 3 levels below where it's schooling.
As for 4th level- I don't think it's EASY. But "not that hard" in that a horse that has been training in dressage even without a lot of natural aptitude should be capable of it at some point. Walk pirouettes, half pass, shoulder in, single flying changes, and collected, medium, and extended versions of the 3 gaits, rein back and counter canter. Again, I'm not necessarily talking about winning classes here- but a horse should be physically and mentally able to do these things, even if it is only at a "satisfactory" level.
Of course there are all of the things we love about dressage beyond the movements- throughness, straightness, submission, rhythm, self carriage, and so on- but sometimes we only look at the ideal and don't allow for the stages in between 0 and 7 or 8. And if you are always worried about being PERFECT at intro and training level, you may never get past it. It depends on your goals and what you want- if you just want a horse you like to ride that moves sideways when you asks, bends well, and can collect and extend, that's fine, and it's still technically dressage. If you want a horse with beautiful gaits, lovely expression, a lovely neck and perfect frame in addition to eveything I just mentioned, that's fine too. And if you want to win in the show ring on top of THAT, that's fine too. Guess I'm just trying to say I wish people would be a little less haughty.

Sandy M
Feb. 13, 2007, 02:37 PM
But "not that hard" in that a horse that has been training in dressage even without a lot of natural aptitude should be capable of it at some point. Walk pirouettes, half pass, shoulder in, single flying changes,....


Ummmm.... I'm posting without looking at the tests, but I do believe 4th level includes 3-tempi changes, not single changes.

arabdressage
Feb. 13, 2007, 02:48 PM
swgarasu... I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe in celebrating mediocrity, especially when it comes to myself, my horse, our training, and the JOURNEY that is dressage. The way I feel about it, there is no point in moving up until you have the BASICS down pat (which means that you are getting better scores than 55-60% at the lower levels!) I am in no hurry, and like patch work farm, I am not interested in "beating" anyone. In fact, the thing I absolutely love about dressage is that even me, someone who is EXTREMELY non-competitive (in that I HATE competition) can ride my ride, get my scores/comments and that's it, I don't have to line up and let them announce that so-and-so was first, so-and-so was second, etc.

I know that not everyone thinks this way, and that's okay! It's just the way I see it. I know I won't be "stuck" at training level forever... I haven't been doing dressage seriously for all that long, and have been very pleased with my progress... so there is no need for me to hurry up the levels. What's the point? I don't have a "destination" in mind, or a goal (I MUST be doing PSG in three years!!!!!!!!), so why not just enjoy the time and work I put into it now?

If my friend doesn't feel that way, that's her right, completely. Everyone-- and I do mean EVERYONE-- is entitled to their own opinion, their own views. And I for one would never take that away from someone... though I know there are many who would argue!

Bottom line is that I just want her to have fun and succeed, but somehow (as usual, lol) this thread has veered off into the land of disagreement over the difficulty of various levels. I'm not particularly interested in discussion about that, so perhaps I should leave this thread to those who are?

swgarasu
Feb. 13, 2007, 03:21 PM
Ummmm.... I'm posting without looking at the tests, but I do believe 4th level includes 3-tempi changes, not single changes.

I did look at the tests, and 4th level test 1 does not have tempis.

Sandy M
Feb. 13, 2007, 04:34 PM
I did look at the tests, and 4th level test 1 does not have tempis.

Okay. Won't disagree - I didn't look. Still, "fourth level" as a whole is not just "single changes." I just have a friend working on, I believe 4/3 and saying that her biggest problem is she "can't count." ROFLOL The horse does the changes just fine, but SHE can't quite coordinate/count them off properly yet. I've heard stories that 4th level is harder than PSG - maybe that's true: She's coming out PSG this spring (but she'll still have to do those 3 tempis!)

swgarasu
Feb. 13, 2007, 05:09 PM
That's true, which is why I wrote:
Walk pirouettes, half pass, shoulder in, single flying changes, and collected, medium, and extended versions of the 3 gaits, rein back and counter canter.

Maybe you think it should be 3rd level, test 5?

:D

Dalfan
Feb. 13, 2007, 05:24 PM
But "not that hard" in that a horse that has been training in dressage even without a lot of natural aptitude should be capable of it at some point.

"Not hard" for the horse, maybe. But the rider is another story, which is the way I took the comment - "4th level is not that hard".

Sandy M
Feb. 13, 2007, 05:32 PM
That's true, which is why I wrote:
Walk pirouettes, half pass, shoulder in, single flying changes, and collected, medium, and extended versions of the 3 gaits, rein back and counter canter.

Maybe you think it should be 3rd level, test 5?

:D

Hay (!), man, I just wish 3rd level test 1 still was WITHOUT flying changes...so I could sneak in and get my bronze medal. Too late now - old fellow's too arthritic to produce the level of collection needed and he's 21 anyway....

Mozart
Feb. 13, 2007, 05:54 PM
I truly think this falls in the nod and smile dept. She is not a good friend, if she was, I might risk saying something or trying to think of a way to bring her over from the "dark side" of "get in a frame and do the movements"

The beauty of dressage is that she will at least not kill herself. She will get a test with a lot of bad scores and hopefully some frank comments but that is about it. Then she may or may not figure it out.

I would be a lot more worried if the trainer said "you could be eventing prelim next year". Then I think I would risk putting my nose in.

Just nod and smile, nod and smile.

arabdressage
Feb. 13, 2007, 07:54 PM
Oh, Mozart, thank you so much for putting it all in perspective ;) What you say is so, so true!

HFK
Feb. 13, 2007, 08:28 PM
So I began riding as an adult - learned the basics on the longe but then entered hunterdom on less than dependable mounts.

Went to University which had a couple of horses they let folks ride. Made a comment to a new friend who was a dressage rider that I was interested in dressage & thought I had a pretty good start.

Bless her, she never said a word in dissent. Just mentioned a week later that she was going for a lesson at a well known dressage barn - would I like to come. When we were there she introduced me to the trainers, the wonderful horses. I booked a lesson.....

I am SOOO grateful that she didn't say what she thought - but CARED enough to tactfully point me in the right direction. She saved me years and loads of "untraining"

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 13, 2007, 09:36 PM
I am the friend that Arabdressage is talking about. I have a really nice 16-16.1 hand appy gelding who has been trained up to 2nd level dressage and ready for 3rd level...which of course I am not ready for, like arabdressage said I am new at dressage. I would also like to say, that I am a VERY fast learner in what I do especially when it comes to riding horses. Arabdressage, I know that you are my friend and want me to help me...but reading this REALLY hurts my feelings even though you are just trying to help, but I am sure that you didn't think that I would read this either. I get 2 hour lessons for the price of one hour, and I realize that you went to one of my lessons that you could only stay for approx. 10 mins. due to you being sick and the camera dying on you. Trust me, by the end of my lessons, my legs hurt so bad that I can barely get off George and George definately knows his stuff. I also understand that you do not like my trainer....but that is also hear say from someone else (doesn't mean that it isn't true, but it also doesn't mean it is) and if we listened to what everyone said about others before meeting them and finding out for ourselves, most people wouldn't have many friends and possibly pass up really good future friends. I have learned a lot from my trainer (not to mention she was also the one who trained George before he was sold 4 years ago), and she has gone to big 4th level shows and has done very well for herself in the past. Also, remember that George sat for 4 years and that he is bound to be over wieght for that...of course now, he is looking very sporty in my opinion now that he is in shape. Also, if this spring I am ready for level 1 tests I will definately try it out, if not, I will start in the training levels. I am not sure if you are able to post pictures of your horses on threads, but I would be more than happier to post a picture of George and see if others think that he is a dressage type horse and I am all up for honest answers. I am not trying to live in this fantasy world in where I think I can just jump on a trained horse and show, I also need to be trained as well as the horse for it does take a horse and rider to compete. I just thought that I would put my 2 cents in;)

cindylue
Feb. 13, 2007, 10:36 PM
I agree with MeAndMyHorses I feel that it really depends on how fast you are able to catch on.Some people are very natural and others are not.I feel that theres not just one type of sport horse out there either, and Appys would make wonderful sport type horse, its really on how they carry them selfs. I think that your jelouse of your friends progress and your not much of a friend if you cant just be supportive and happy that she is doing so well.Some people should think before they type.:no: I know if I read this about my self I would be upset.Good luck with your future friends..Its too bad your so shallow minded. Think before you type if you need other people to tell you mind your own business then maybe you shouldn't have posted..:no:

Kelly G
Feb. 13, 2007, 10:59 PM
I'm not sure that arabdressage meant anything the least bit nasty when she put this post up, but as she already knew when she did it that "the path she took was frought with danger" as they say, with the risk of MeAndMyHorses hearing about it. Now, these two friends have got some issues to work through now, so let's not make this any harder on them by taking sides. They'll figure it out, and as I just suggested to MeAndMyHorses in a PM, it's an opportunity for her to make sure she is happy with her progress with her boy, and if she is, wonderful, 'cos that's all that matters, and if she isn't, she's now got a very long list of things she can consider to help in that. Good luck to both arabdressage and MeAndMyHorses. :winkgrin:
Kelly.

meredithbarlow
Feb. 13, 2007, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE=arabdressage;2207319]The horse, by the way, is an Appy-- and not a TB-y Appy. A very, VERY nice horse, but not (IMO) physically built to do fourth level.

Okay, now I'm no dressage expert (lol, at all!) but I think this lady is crazy, forth level takes years! But you're crazy too! Perhaps this appy can't do fourth level but lets not be breed profiling here, my appy can do dressage with his eyes closed, well one of them anyways, he's blind in one eye, and because I'm an idiot with no time havn't completed his training he's no where near a dressage horse BUT not the point lol (I can get off track easily) He has the ability and talent to make it to any level of dressage he so chooses! Everyone whose's ever seen him move (anti-appy people included) have loved him.
Why ride something crappy when you can ride an appy!!! lol there's my rant for the night!

mazu
Feb. 13, 2007, 11:51 PM
Ugh. Sorry, MAMH, that you ran across this, but I really think arabdressage only brought this up because she is genuinely concerned and wants you to have a good experience with dressage.

Opinions, especially about trainers and especially in dressage, are a lot like ---holes. I doubt anyone reading arab's posts thought anything negative about you or your trainer, so you really need not feel defensive about this. Personally, I've never had a trainer I didn't hear something bad about -- and sometimes from people I respected. Take what's useful, forget what's not. Arab may well be evaluating your trainer from the perspective of what her needs are. The trainer might be perfectly wonderful for your needs right now -- but obviously you should keep re-evaluating that as you progress.

I hope you & arab are able to talk about this in person, and sorry you had to be introduced to the COTH boards this way. Again, though, I think arab started this thread with the best of intentions.

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 13, 2007, 11:51 PM
I am not mad with arabdressage....to be honest, I think most of my anger came from some of the responses left by others that I read. Oh well...life goes on:yes: . And I would never consider losing a friendship over something like this, I just wish that I wouldn't have read this thread.

Sabine
Feb. 14, 2007, 01:04 AM
Saw your PM- mamh- I hope you are working this out. Training a horse is like a long road- you will find sections that are great fun- dry patches, times when the going gets really tough and so on. On the way most likely you will find different advisors (trainers) - some who you will treasure for life - others who you wished you had never met.

Your story has not yet been written-it's just begun...I hope you stick around and consider this a place where you CAN talk about issues and discuss if you are on the right track. Although some of us have claws- I would say 99% mean only well- although it sometimes doesn't read like that.

So welcome- you had an unusual christening in our crowd...and good luck with your horse and dressage- and yes you can post links to pictures ( posted on photobucket or similar places- as well as links to videos on youtube or whatever site you like...hope to see how you are progressing....and bring your flame suit...LOL!

arabdressage
Feb. 14, 2007, 01:13 AM
I knew you would find it eventually... either that you would stumble across it yourself or that SOMEONE (cough, cough) would point it out to you. The same someone who, perhaps, told you I didn't like your trainer? That's so funny to me... YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT. I told you already about what she did with that horse Kara had for sale... so... just wondering why this is any surprise?

Also, if your feelings are hurt it means you didn't really read what I wrote... because nothing there was hurtful in any way. I never EVER said that (for example) you were a BAD RIDER, because I don't believe that in the slightest. I also said more than once that George was a nice horse... he IS. And for those saying I shouldn't be breed-biased against Appies, you missed another of my posts... I don't think ALL Appies are not sporthorse type... for example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/tiggypoodle/Cooper4-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/tiggypoodle/Cooper5.jpg

This is Cooper. He is a four-year-old (in this pic) Appy/TB gelding, and VERY sporthorse built. George isn't built like him. Not that there's anything at all WRONG with the way George is built... just not, IMO, sporthorse built. Which doesn't mean he CAN'T do dressage... something else I NEVER said ;)

Anyway. Candice. As I have said many times, my agenda here is that you have a good time, enjoy yourself, and STAY IN DRESSAGE. That's all I'm hoping for. It doesn't matter to me in the SLIGHTEST which trainer you use, and if you are enjoying the one you have, more power to you. I am, however, entitled to voice my opinion in a way that is not threatening, harassing or mean, and I think I've done it. If a person is not secure enough to be able to "agree to disagree", they are missing a lot in life!

To everyone else... thanks so much for all of your thought-provoking responses, even the ones on a different subject ;)

chicki
Feb. 14, 2007, 01:15 AM
I agree that Arabdressage was only posting out of her concern for you, and I think she felt that she needed some advice on what to do. I would hate to come across a post like you did MAMH BUT..I am glad you realize that she had the best of intentions, and she really wants the best for you.
Hope it all works out and good luck with your dressage training.:)
Kyla

arabdressage
Feb. 14, 2007, 01:18 AM
Oh and "Cindylue", welcome... I know you think I'm too dumb to figure out who you are;) Again, like I said to Candice, PLEASE PLEASE show me what I said that was so offensive?

Nothing. Oh yeah, that's right!!

I think there are people in this world who want to be offended, no matter what. I, thank god, am not one of them... I think it would be a bitter, shallow existence... which I don't have time for. You only live once, why spend that life "pist" (HA HA HA) and cranky?

kaluha2
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:31 AM
Meandmyhorsie:

Thanks for the pm. I'll consider stroking you in the future. LOL!!!!

You should thank your friend for caring enough about you to be concerned and taking the time to steer you in the direction she feels is best thereby saving you lot's of money, time, and your horses miles. She may be right, or she may be wrong. In which case then YOU get to smile and nod. LOL!!

Arabdressage: just smile and nod in the future. Allow her the opportunity to do well with this path or not. Before you post something about a friend you might want to consider how they may feel after reading your post. Never ever post anything about a friend---unless it's damn good!!

Meandmyhorsie: You stated you were new to dressage. Alot of dressage can be quite confusing to a newcomer. Things that seem right/correct really aren't. It is very difficult sometimes to explain these things because sometimes you just have to be there already to understand the pit falls. I really feel that arabdressage was trying to be helpful. She kind of made a left turn when she started this thread. I do understand her frustration though.

At any rate, continue riding and please don't let this upset your frienship. Horse people make the best friends. I still keep in touch with the friends I made 45 yrs ago when we were little tykes learning to post. We made it through all sorts of stuff and still remain friends. I'm sure you will too.

Horsepower
Feb. 14, 2007, 10:17 AM
Going back to the poster's first post, has anyone noticed that she is HORRIFIED after seeing only ONE lesson? Isn't this being a little too judgmental? Don't you have some lessons where your trainer does great and you feel like alot was done and some where the lesson didn't seem as good? Trainers have good and bad days just like riders and horses do. Sometimes any trainer can say the wrong thing. Maybe, the trainer was just trying to be enthusiastic and get the rider excited by saying she'd progress rapidly. It might have been a way of simply complementing the rider's riding skills and giving her encouragement but not meant literally.

As far as advice, I am with the mind your own business group. And don't get jealous if it turns out this person does have the talent to move up quickly. We all vary in talent and some are just going to progress faster than others. Just enjoy what you are learning and accomplishing.

P.S. Know a person who berated a fellow boarder on buying a "crummy" horse and why was she so excited? This beginner would never do well. Well, that beginner blew the pants off the person who critcized and is super successful at shows and went from a beginner to a very accomplished rider within a year. It does happen. So people really shouldn't jump to conclusions about the next guy and their horse. Just focus on themselves.

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 14, 2007, 11:08 AM
Well I think that everyone has their own opinion and preference on what kind of horse they like, I guess I was a bit hurt about the part where you said that George isn't built for higher level dressage. But if everyone in this worls liked the same color and breed of horses it would be a very boring world, am I right?

kaluha2 Meandmyhorsie:

Thanks for the pm. I'll consider stroking you in the future. LOL!!!!

kaluha2....what the heck is that supposed to mean?:confused:

cindylue
Feb. 14, 2007, 12:05 PM
Horsepower you are 100% right I couldn't have said it better..It really depends on each rider and horse on how fast they move up..Thumbs up to you..:D

indyblue
Feb. 14, 2007, 02:33 PM
Well I think that everyone has their own opinion and preference on what kind of horse they like, I guess I was a bit hurt about the part where you said that George isn't built for higher level dressage. But if everyone in this worls liked the same color and breed of horses it would be a very boring world, am I right?

kaluha2 Meandmyhorsie:

Thanks for the pm. I'll consider stroking you in the future. LOL!!!!

kaluha2....what the heck is that supposed to mean?:confused:

Hi there.I wouldn't be hurt by that statement as the majority of horses in this world never make it to the upper levels.The majority of horses dont make it out of training for one reason or another.I had an instructer from England last year tell me that she really liked my horse.On the same course another friend who has an extremely well bred horse with aims of GP didnt get very good feedback on her horse.My friend made a point of telling me afterwards that of course did I know that my horse will never make GP because she doesnt have the conformation for it.I was offended for a while untill another friend pointed out that Ive never had the goal of doing GP anyway(I dont have the skill, time, money,nerves etc) so whats the problem.Also my friend is right.My horse doesnt have the confo for GP but she is still very competitive,very saleable, and will keep me happy for years.

Patch
Feb. 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
Ummmm.... I'm posting without looking at the tests, but I do believe 4th level includes 3-tempi changes, not single changes.


Well I think that everyone has their own opinion and preference on what kind of horse they like, I guess I was a bit hurt about the part where you said that George isn't built for higher level dressage. But if everyone in this worls liked the same color and breed of horses it would be a very boring world, am I right?


Not trying to derail yet again but 4th level tests 2 and 3 have "3 flying changes every 3rd stride" http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/tests/abridged/Fourth%202.pdf (http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/tests/abridged/Fourth%202.pdf)


If all we needed to do was like our horses to make to the higher levels we would all be there and then yes it would be boring :) . I 'm not saying you and your horse aren't capable, because I sure don't know. It sounds like you are willing to put a lot of work into it and that is definitely required. The proof will ultimately be in the pudding when you start to show in front of someone who is neither your friend or your trainer and who can give your some unbiased feedback on both your strengths and weaknesses as well as those of your horse.

Good luck to you, hopefully your time here on the board hasn't hurt you too bad as it really is a great place to come for advice and support, you just have to be willing to keep an open mind to sift a little....;)

Horsepower
Feb. 14, 2007, 04:10 PM
MeandMyHorses: Just read more of the thread and realized you had read your "friends" posts. In my opinion, she is jealous (like the boarder I told you about). My guess is you are a more accomplished rider and don't worry, I bet your horse will be great. Keep up the good work; I know you'll do great!

Arabdressage: Sorry but I don't buy your "I am only concerned" claim. I have a friend like you and while I maintain the friendship I don't ride with her anymore (she always was negative to me and everyone; don't need that from anyone). It finally became clear she was insecure about her own riding (and she was the one who criticised the other boarder about the crummy horse). To come to a conclusion about your friend and her trainer after 10 minutes is inexcusable. If you don't like that trainer don't use her; but others can do what they want. Just concentrate on your own riding and use the trainer you want to use.

cuatx55
Feb. 14, 2007, 05:02 PM
meandmyhorsie:
thanks for sharing more of the story...there are 2 sides, after all! Feel free to post on here pics anad videos. I'm glad you are wanting to learn and get feedback. I found my impression changed by hearing your story. Meanwhile, it would be helpful to move on, I don't really need to hear about peresonal things between friends on here. We all want to help with dressage, but this isn't our place to be involved.

We don't know people's motivations...it could be many shades of gray...jealousy, concern, frustration...and it doesn't really matter except that the horses are being cared for and loved. We all know of "trainer loyalty" and that is too bad. I have many riding friends with whom I disagree on things. But it doesn't wreck things. We enjoy horses but don't exactly discuss details of theory. You learn that the world isn't like you most of the time. Just keep searching out new things, and if you chose to take on a new dicipline the dressage will only help you. And if you believe in your riding and horse, work hard, you will go far-as far as you can given these parameters. My horse wouldn't be considered a good prospect, but she is doing great through correct patient training. Sometimes you just have to get into it and see how it goes!

"its not what you have, but what you do with what you have..."

Good luck to both of you, hope things get patched up.

Sandy M
Feb. 14, 2007, 05:18 PM
Horsepower, I don't have a dog in this fight, and I do not know or not know whether the OP is "jealous," but I can sincerely say that I see people I know - friends - taking "dressage" lessons and I have to just BITE MY TONGUE not to say how off track they are getting. In most cases, I am a more advanced rider than they, so jealously doesn't enter into it. But I don't DARE say anything, for fear of alienating them and/or their trainer. So, basically, what I'm saying is that the OP may very well not be at all jealous, just concerned about the "relearning" and/or retraining of the horse that a beginner in dressage may end up having to make. Whether the concern is is valid with regard to this particular trainer, we do not know.

What I DO do, is encourage such people to take outside clinics with people I do know are - well, "classical" whatever that may mean!! Perhaps "correct" would be a better way to put it, and if they can't or won't participate with their horses, to at least come and audit, so that they can hear what other people say, and perhaps come to realize, on their own, that the person with whom they are working is not putting them on the right track.

MAMH - I will say that I would be wary of sticking someone just because you apparently get "more bang for the buck" with longer lessons. I'm just saying that in general terms, since I don't know the abilities of your instructor. I had someone say that to me - they were continuing taking lessons with someone they KNEW was teaching them incorrectly, but they were beginners, and the trainer was "convenient and inexpensive." As far as the Appy issue goes, well you can tell where I stand on the issue by looking at my profile pic! ROFLOL

mp
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:01 PM
Going back to the poster's first post, has anyone noticed that she is HORRIFIED after seeing only ONE lesson? Isn't this being a little too judgmental? Don't you have some lessons where your trainer does great and you feel like alot was done and some where the lesson didn't seem as good?

I believe the OP had seen this trainer work previously. And even if she hadn't, I believe you can tell a lot from watching one lesson. At the very least, you can decide if you need to observe another lesson. Or not.

Yes, I have lessons that are really great and some that aren't. But it's not my instructor who's having the bad day. Her approach to teaching and training is very consistent. But sometimes she has to work a lot harder to make the light bulb come on for me.

About Appies and dressage -- everybody knows they're not suited for it. Neither are Arabs. ;)

Sandy M
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:29 PM
About Appies and dressage -- everybody knows they're not suited for it. Neither are Arabs. ;)\

I am DOOMED.... my new horse is both Appy AND Arab. ROFLOL!!!

cindylue
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:33 PM
:D Once again Horsepower nailed it.100% Its amazing, how much you can find out about a persons personality, and whether their intentions are good or not by reading a post, and I beleave Arabdressages intentions were not good intentions when comes to posting and thats why it has cause such a feud. If you have to ask people to tell you to mind your own business then maybe you shouldn't have posted it to begain with.The trainer involved is the one that trained this horse to begain with why not go to her. She knows the horse and all his buttons, just because your not moving up as fast as some one eles you should not belittle them or say their not good enough.I'm sure if the tables were turn Arabdressage would feel hurt.And for MAMH hope to see you at shows kicking butt..:sadsmile:D

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:40 PM
cuatx55,
Here are some links to some pictures of my Appy gelding (he looks even better in a dressage saddle)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-20.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-21.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-09.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-07.jpg

Sandy M
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:51 PM
cuatx55,
Here are some links to some pictures of my Appy gelding (he looks even better in a dressage saddle)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-20.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-21.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-09.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p145/candy4met00/Georgerunninginpasture-07.jpg


Cute horse. How tall? Bloodlines? Hope you have him signed up for ACAAP and USDF and all that stuff for once you get showing.

Sandy ("It ain't got class, if it ain't got spots on its a$$")

cindylue
Feb. 14, 2007, 06:55 PM
I totally agree he is awsome.:eek: Very big and flashy..What class..See ya at the show;)

atr
Feb. 14, 2007, 07:09 PM
Nice looking horse. Of course I'm biased... (see my profile pic :))

cindylue
Feb. 14, 2007, 07:23 PM
atr, Your horse is very nice :eek: I bet you hear that all the time, very flashy..

Kelly G
Feb. 14, 2007, 07:38 PM
MAMH, gee he looks a lovely type! Look, paces and athleticism-wise he may or may not fit the bill to go really far in dressage, who knows! But, as I said to you earlier, have a ball, ride your horse, have your lessons, and see where it takes you. And, don't let the rest of us on this board play any part in how you're feeling about your friend after finding this thread. We don't know either of you personally, but you know each other, so you and arabdressage are the only one who can really know her reasons for posting, not us. :winkgrin:
Cheers,
Kelly.:D

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 14, 2007, 09:02 PM
I believe the OP had seen this trainer work previously. And even if she hadn't, I believe you can tell a lot from watching one lesson. At the very least, you can decide if you need to observe another lesson. Or not.

Yes, I have lessons that are really great and some that aren't. But it's not my instructor who's having the bad day. Her approach to teaching and training is very consistent. But sometimes she has to work a lot harder to make the light bulb come on for me.

About Appies and dressage -- everybody knows they're not suited for it. Neither are Arabs. ;)



Well unless I am misunderstanding you....you are not very nice at all..actually you are pisssing me off. And if for some reason I am misunderstanding you...then I appologize

My Two Cents
Feb. 14, 2007, 09:07 PM
cuatx55: I totally agree that we don't always know other peoples motivations and it is nice to see the other side of the story.

Meandmyhorses: Do what's right for you and your horse. Don't sweat the small stuff and in the long run, it's all small stuff.;)

mp
Feb. 14, 2007, 11:32 PM
Well unless I am misunderstanding you....you are not very nice at all..actually you are pisssing me off. And if for some reason I am misunderstanding you...then I appologize


What part of my post pissses you off? That I think you can tell a lot about an instructor from watching one lesson? Or if your instructor is good, a bad lesson is usually the fault of the rider? Or the part about Arabs/Appies?

Just for the record, I have nine Arabians, so I can make jokes about them if I want. And I covet SandyM's Arab/App. I saw Aul Magic (her horse's sire) perform about 6 years ago at Arabian Nationals and he was incredible.

Don't be bothered about what anyone else thinks. If you like your instructor, your horse is Ok and you're having a good time, go for it.

PS -- I'm not a nice person. No need to apologize about that observation.

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 14, 2007, 11:57 PM
I guess this is my question???? Most of you on this forum are nice and kind, but more than half of you are nasty and bitter and really have nothing nice to say. Is it like this ALL the time? Or is this just how the majority of dressage peolpe are?

chicki
Feb. 15, 2007, 12:45 AM
LOL oh lordy. How the heck do any of you know that the OP is jealous?? That is such a ridiculous statement. She may be yeah, but there is a good chance that if the person she is talking about just started in dressage, the OP is the more experienced person. What is it that she is supposed to be jealous of?

Sometimes people are simply concerned for their friends. If I saw a friend pick up dressage, and she went with someone I really didn't think was qualified, I would feel the urge to at least say something. Now..wether one should or should not depends on the relationship of the people involved. I am close enough to most of my friends though that if I were in fact given advice from a good friend who had been involved in the sport longer than I had, I would simply chalk it up to her wanting to be helpful and I would probably seriously consider what she had to say. I do realize however, that this is not me or my friends, nor is it anyone else heres friend. So we really don't know the whole situation. Why is it that someone is ALWAYS jealous, or angry or whatever??. Sheeesh. Thats why she came here..for advice, and I don't think anything in her post screams jealousy.

Sabine
Feb. 15, 2007, 01:05 AM
I guess this is my question???? Most of you on this forum are nice and kind, but more than half of you are nasty and bitter and really have nothing nice to say. Is it like this ALL the time? Or is this just how the majority of dressage peolpe are?

there are lots of answers for this.
some peeps here are newbies- they are either nice and want to learn or they are opinionated and don't seem to need to learn. Depending on how they are - the rest reacts.
There are other peeps here- who are amateurs- they have ridden for a long time- trained, paid, gone thru the ups and downs- they know their way around- they have seen the gammit- they are nice- but don't feel the need to jump to everyones help- unless a topic is worded in a nice way- and an 'opinion' is asked for.
Then there are the pros. There are breeders and pros of a variety of backgrounds- from small rural areas or bigger areas- there aren't too many but some have a lot of knowledge and exposure - and often the ones that talk the least know the most.
The need to help a greenie diminishes rapidly the longer you have been in the business. The reason for that is that many greenies come in with a big know-it-all attitude and are not really wanting any assistance- so noone in their right mind would stick their neck out.

In the whole- I think your friend Arabdressage tried to figure out how to communicate with you- without hurting your feelings and ended up doing the opposite. Her opinion of what you should do and yours obviously differ. None of us have seen the training- and frankly the horses pictures- don't convince me one way or another- although I have to say that I have seen fabulous Appy- dressage- and have no breed prejudice whatsoever- I have also owned a fabulous white Arab mare- that was a queen and trained to highschool- including spanish walk...so there- the breed has nothing to do with anything.

the fact that a trainer would offer two for one- makes me wonder- it's something I have never experienced in the dressage training world. Having a lesson should be 45 minutes- not 90 or 120. If that is what you are doing- you're doing your horse and yourself a disservice.

Other than that- I really can't comment. Take your discussion with Arab offline and hopefully use this forum as a resource to gain knowledge and advice. If not- that's fine too!!!

indyblue
Feb. 15, 2007, 01:17 AM
Who on earth has been nasty and bitter to you? Dressage is hard work and in the real world not everyone is going to tell you that you and your horse are fabulous.I dont think that anything the OP has written is offensive in anyway towards you.The more you type the more you reveal.

cuatx55
Feb. 15, 2007, 08:56 AM
Me and my horsies-you have a private message

mp
Feb. 15, 2007, 09:20 AM
MeandMy ...

I may not be nice, as in I tell people only what they want to hear. But I wasn't nasty or bitter.

Someone on this board has a signature line that reads something like -- "the horse world: Two people. Three opinions." IME, that pretty much sums it up, whether you're riding dressage, western pleasure, hunter jumper or hitting the trails.

It's unfortunate your friend aired her opinion on this board, especially since it seems like she expected you might see this thread. But you have to decide whose opinion you respect and whose doesn't matter. As I said before, if you like your trainer, your horse is OK and you're enjoying the experience, don't worry about what someone else thinks.

Good luck and have fun with your horse.

Mozart
Feb. 15, 2007, 10:34 AM
there are lots of answers for this.
some peeps here are newbies- they are either nice and want to learn or they are opinionated and don't seem to need to learn. Depending on how they are - the rest reacts.
There are other peeps here- who are amateurs- they have ridden for a long time- trained, paid, gone thru the ups and downs- they know their way around- they have seen the gammit- they are nice- but don't feel the need to jump to everyones help- unless a topic is worded in a nice way- and an 'opinion' is asked for.
Then there are the pros. There are breeders and pros of a variety of backgrounds- from small rural areas or bigger areas- there aren't too many but some have a lot of knowledge and exposure - and often the ones that talk the least know the most.
The need to help a greenie diminishes rapidly the longer you have been in the business. The reason for that is that many greenies come in with a big know-it-all attitude and are not really wanting any assistance- so noone in their right mind would stick their neck out.

In the whole- I think your friend Arabdressage tried to figure out how to communicate with you- without hurting your feelings and ended up doing the opposite. Her opinion of what you should do and yours obviously differ. None of us have seen the training- and frankly the horses pictures- don't convince me one way or another- although I have to say that I have seen fabulous Appy- dressage- and have no breed prejudice whatsoever- I have also owned a fabulous white Arab mare- that was a queen and trained to highschool- including spanish walk...so there- the breed has nothing to do with anything.

the fact that a trainer would offer two for one- makes me wonder- it's something I have never experienced in the dressage training world. Having a lesson should be 45 minutes- not 90 or 120. If that is what you are doing- you're doing your horse and yourself a disservice.

Other than that- I really can't comment. Take your discussion with Arab offline and hopefully use this forum as a resource to gain knowledge and advice. If not- that's fine too!!!

I agree with everything said here, good call Sabine.
When she talked about two hours lessons, my eyebrows kinda went up and I thought OP probably was correct in her assessment of the situation.

But still.... nod and smile, nod and smile... :yes:

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 15, 2007, 12:45 PM
I agree with everything said here, good call Sabine.
When she talked about two hours lessons, my eyebrows kinda went up and I thought OP probably was correct in her assessment of the situation.

But still.... nod and smile, nod and smile... :yes:


First of all...you do not know what my 2 hour lesson even is all about..:mad: . Just because I HAVE A 2 HOUR LESSON, doesn't mean I sit and ride the whole time. Since you seem to be such a know it all, know this....when I am done riding, my lesson is not over....I learn about different equipment, and get more of an insight on how dressage is perfromed. So go and climb back up that tree you fell out of:mad: I am done here.

reidsporthorses.nz
Feb. 15, 2007, 01:00 PM
take a deep breath.. most of the posters are being nice. the line about the appies and arabs was a joke (hence the smiley face)

read the board a bit more- it has its own culture and inside jokes. there are a lots of experienced and very nice people here.

:)

Mozart
Feb. 15, 2007, 01:04 PM
First of all...you do not know what my 2 hour lesson even is all about..:mad: . Just because I HAVE A 2 HOUR LESSON, doesn't mean I sit and ride the whole time. Since you seem to be such a know it all, know this....when I am done riding, my lesson is not over....I learn about different equipment, and get more of an insight on how dressage is perfromed. So go and climb back up that tree you fell out of:mad: I am done here.

As I am not much of a tree climber, would it be okay if I used a ladder? :cool:

mp
Feb. 15, 2007, 01:27 PM
Get up that tree, Mozart, and stop being so bitter and nasty. Or you'll run off the rest of the nice people, too. :p

cindylue
Feb. 15, 2007, 02:17 PM
This has just gotten out of hand.:( I have made a dission that I'm not looking at this any more I know both these people, and both their personalities, And I can see how it turned into to something ugly real quick:no: Even if Arabdressage was just trying to help, theres other ways to do so with out making the other person sound like they are inadequate, And to meAndMyHorses Knowing her it had to hurt when she read it and all the responses she got yes there are some good ones and just a few bad, be we are all humans and even if its a complete stranger saying things to you or about you, its still going to affect how you feel. so yeah I'm done ..And to tell you the truth MeAndMyHorses is a wonderful preson and grate with horses some people where born ridding and she was one of them..So please careful with the ugly stitck people are being hurt, thats the only reason why this post has drawn some many people to it..Sorry I hope this thread starts getting a little nicer..Holly Cow.

Patch
Feb. 15, 2007, 02:32 PM
cindylou ...joining a BB and posting right away is kind of like joining into a game of tether ball when you've never watched from the sidelines.....sooner or later you're gonna get whacked in the head :eek:

Sometimes you need to just step back and watch the game for awhile before you join in. (I know you were coming to the defence of a friend.)

Don't give up entirely on this board it really is a great place, just give it a chance and keep in mind were all individuals.....with opinions.....good and bad....etc. etc.

I know you said you weren't going to read this anymore but you probably will...:)

MeAndMyHorses
Feb. 15, 2007, 11:22 PM
As I am not much of a tree climber, would it be okay if I used a ladder? :cool:

If it pleases you....:) :cool:

tollertwins
Feb. 16, 2007, 07:29 AM
Both the appies are cute! The young one appears to move more up-hill - but there have been QH's competing at GP that are a little downhill.

Depends on horsie's innate talent and desire....

Hazelnut
Feb. 16, 2007, 03:25 PM
This has just gotten out of hand.:( I have made a dission that I'm not looking at this any more I know both these people, and both their personalities, And I can see how it turned into to something ugly real quick:no: Even if Arabdressage was just trying to help, theres other ways to do so with out making the other person sound like they are inadequate, And to meAndMyHorses Knowing her it had to hurt when she read it and all the responses she got yes there are some good ones and just a few bad, be we are all humans and even if its a complete stranger saying things to you or about you, its still going to affect how you feel. so yeah I'm done ..And to tell you the truth MeAndMyHorses is a wonderful preson and grate with horses some people where born ridding and she was one of them..So please careful with the ugly stitck people are being hurt, thats the only reason why this post has drawn some many people to it..Sorry I hope this thread starts getting a little nicer..Holly Cow.

You are right, some things are better not aired on a public forum :yes:. That's why in magazines they "change the names to protect the innocent." Since you know the parties involved, it must be hurtful to have this be your introduction to COTH. While I do appreciate many viewpoints on this and other forums, there are times that the tone of a post or a thread is just plain ugly. Some folks are here to be helpful, some like to stir the pot, and sometimes its hard to tell just how a post will come across to others with no facial expressions or tone of voice to temper them.

Not reading can be the best method to avoid "ugly" and there is the ignore funtion which you can use if you simply prefer not to see the posts of certain members.

I'm always of the opinion, jump in and post...the water's fine and we can use some new blood...welcome.:cool:

findeight
Feb. 16, 2007, 06:35 PM
MeandMy ...



Someone on this board has a signature line that reads something like -- "the horse world: Two people. Three opinions." IME, that pretty much sums it up, whether you're riding dressage, western pleasure, hunter jumper or hitting the trails.


Well, that would be moi and moi is really bored on a vacation I thought I would spend knocking the horse and myself out of hibernation instead of looking at iced over trees that are still pretty after 3 days and feeling every bone I ever broke as well as every strain, sprain, squashed spot, dislocation, displaced vertabrae, bad bruise and arthritic joint aquired over the last 40 years in this crap where a high of 20f is a heat wave:no:. If I liked this, I would have moved to Cleveland. No offense.

So I stray over here. But have the same feelings.

When it is not your horse and not your decision, there is little you can do...because it is not your horse or your decision. Alot of people read these BBs and those that do not are quickly clued in they may be the subject of a post. NEVER say anything you would not say to a person's face. If you have a poor opinion of something or somebody and can back it up with facts,, say what you think. But, IMO, the OP took a leap when she said something like "other then the one unethical experience with this trainer, I went completely unjudgemental and with an open mind".

Sorry, SAY WHAT? You already did not like her and told all of us she was "unethical" without giving the other side of that particular story...and there are ALWAYS two sides unless outright abuse or actual fraud were involved. Readers can also deduce who is involved with little effort from info on your profile.

For those that do suffer with friends who insist on using bad trainers? Not much you can do except try to set a better example and point out you do better, have more fun and are in a more supportive environment where you can learn more. Other then that? It is a MYOB.