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View Full Version : This Barbaro article sent me into a rampage!



farmgirl88
Feb. 7, 2007, 06:54 PM
So you thought the LA times article was bad??? Wait till you read the one below. This article i found in Uconn's Daily Campus Newspaper. this article was written by Chris Donelly who is a staff columnist and a 4th semester political science and souciology double major here at Uconn. I have his email...and i am seriously holding myself back from forwarding him something not so nice at this point in time...enjoy!

Caylei


FORGET BARBARO, REMEMBER HUMANS

The track of the Kentucky Derby will never be the same, for the greatest athlete of all time has passed. Taken to absolution by the equine equivalent of athelete's foot, Babaro put up one good fight. Now that we can all check off the "shed a tear for a horse" on our to-do list, the national collective can reflect on how utterly rediculous and idiotic it is that people actually cared.

In the wake of a week with 21 troop casualties in Iraq, according to the Dept. of Defense, what is everyone so worked up about? The death of a horse. All throughout the week, news networks have been broadcasting with increased enthusiasm the developement of this story that was over the second it broke. I even heard, Kleenex at the ready, the tear-jerking press conference where Barbaro's owner shared all of our grief. Why was she so sad? Because she lost a friend, an animal that helper her through all her hard times in like? No. She lost a multi-million dollar investment. Barbaro (and horse racing in general for that matter) is all about making tons of money off an event that lasts a couple minutes at the most. The Barbaro fiasco has continued with this tradition.

You know there is something seriously wrong with our society when a horse recieves more medical attention than a person. Barbaro recieved Ive-League treatment, according to MSNBC, landing himself in the UPENN's New Bolton Center. Perhaps more rediculous is the fact that Barbaro recieved a procedure described as a "horse-raft" that kept him suspended in a heated recovery pool, taking weight off his fragile limbs, according to MSNBC's nick Summers. As if the horse inflatable inertube was not enough, this contraption devised by the brilliant minds at UPenn (some of whom, if they keep this up, may cure cancer) brought in around 1.2 million in donations. Once again, there is a profit to be made, even with a crippled horse.

It is completely shameful and appalling that people are making money off of a poor horse in misery. Barbaro was used as more of a test rat than a patient and was the lucky recipient of a whole host of experimental proceedures. What is even more of a disgrace is how all of this money could have been used for a far more beneficial purpose.

The African nation of Ethiopia, for example, has 1.5 mil. people living with AIDS, and about 120,ooo dead in 2003 fromthe epidemic, according to the CIA world factbook. In order to more effectively frame this, U.S. Censeus Bereau statistics state that the amount of people living with AIDS in Ethiopia is almost equivalent to the entire popluation of Rhode Island.

The AIDS epidemic is spreading like wild fire throughout Africa because people cannot get enough money and supplies to help combat the horrible disease. An effective treatment against AIDS utilizes AZT medication, which costs about $2, 738 per person for 1 year, according to the World Bank. This means that the money wasted on Barbaro donations to UPenn could help prolong the lives of 438 people suffering fromt he AIDS virus in Ethiopia. What is more important, 438 people whose life work could help make the world a better place, or a horse that had the innate ability to run fast before his hoof rotted off?

There are too many current social problems, diseases and wars to have wasted so much money on a horse. Furthermore, the Barbaro story blanketed the press this past wook took up time and print that could have been used to report on much more socially important events. For example, last week, on top of 21 troops who died in Iraq, iraqbodycount.org put the minimum civilian death rate in Iraq at 55, 136 since the start of the War. Closer to home, sen. Jow Biden launched a bid for the white house, and Exxon Mobil broke the record for the highest prfit gain ever in a year. But if you were to ask the average Uconn Student what they remember most about last week, it would probably be Uconn's losing record in men's Basketball and the death of Barbaro.

All of the attention that the unfortunate passing of this horse has garnered is disgusting. It was sad the horse died and was not able to continue on with his career but when people in our country turn their back on the pverty present in our nation's cities and instead shell out millions for a horse, then all of us should be ashamed. Barbaro was a horse, not a person, and should have never been treated better thana human being.

The hype over the deatj of barbaro showed in vivid detail the pathetic reliance of Americans on the materialism, wealth and our consistant apathy toward one another.

Well there is the article, i had to type the whole thing out so please, i apologize for any mis-spelling, my hands are a bit tired right now. I just HAD to share with everyone..

Laurierace
Feb. 7, 2007, 07:14 PM
Everyone is entitled to their "causes." No one person can fix everything that is wrong with the world, so we need to find our niche and concentrate upon that. It doesn't make other people's priorities "wrong" just different. There are enough causes out there to go around, we don't need to share the same ones.

holmes
Feb. 7, 2007, 07:32 PM
I personally think there is a valid argument there; why is a horse entitled to such premier medical attention when there are millions of people who do not receive adequate preventative care - the problem is the article is so badly written, it is shocking that a University would actually have it's name associated with it. It is a piece of work one would expect from an 8th grader.

The argument is how economical do you want to be the dollar - shall we remove all luxuries, cars, entertainment, hobbies, jewelry, and put this money towards a greater good? The reason the US and western world is such a great place to live is because we can spend our money the way we want - if you want to take a sabbatical to Africa to help Children you can, if you want to spend $8000 to save your pet dog you can, if you want to spend $2000 on new rims for your car go ahead. We earn our own money, and there should minimal limitations in how we want to spend it.

The beauty of a story like Barbaro, the gentleman in NY who saved that student is they are stories of love, and compassion during a very dark time in our nations history - to me the $100,000s the Jacksons paid for that, and the money Donald Trump and others gave to that gentleman was money incredibly well spent -

Laurierace
Feb. 7, 2007, 07:36 PM
I do not think its a valid arguement because it is based upon a flawed premise. That being if they had not spent money giving Barbaro the best medical care possible, that they would have given that money to stop AIDS or to stop some other horrible tragedy. For starters, it isn't anyone's business what they spend their money on, and it certainly isn't all the money they have in the world, leaving nothing for them to donate to charity. People are so quick to designate how others should spend their money but so slow to cough up their own........

pvcjumper
Feb. 7, 2007, 07:54 PM
WOW, is all I have to say. How about he get off his high horse (no pun intended) and pony up (again no pun!) the money he is spending to go to that college, and put himself in a community college and DONATE the difference to help fight AIDS in 3rd world countries. I bet the car daddy probably bought him cost a pretty penny, how about trading it in for several lower class cheapo cars and donating them to the poverish families here is the US who need a car to get to and from work, etc.

My God, this person is absolutely ridiculous. Our news is ALREADY covered in filthy politics and horrors of the war on terror. I cringe at the thought of watching the news for more than 15 minutes in the morning because all i see is rape, war, violence, corruption... Barbaro's story (screw the fact that he is a horse) was one of hope and passion as mentioned above and brought vast majority of the nation together on a common cause. So what if its a horse, a cow, some random little girl suffering from cancer, its a work of love that makes it important. Yes, people make $$ from the sport of racing... but guess what, so do all the athletes who get paid for PLAYING A GAME!!! We CAN NOT save the world... and regardless of what we would like to think some of the world doesnt WANT our help. Yes its extremely tragic that some 3rd world countries are suffering with disease and hunger. But their governments and populations are not doing too much to help themselves in some cases either. We didn't just EXIST as the country we are today... we fought for our freedom, WORKED to establish a life and a position as a leading country and one of wealth. I donate to cancer charities all the time because its MY wish to do so as a cancer survivor and as the daughter of a mother who is terminally ill. I dont go around preaching to other people about what they should donate to, if they donate at all. Its their choice. Barbaros story brought people together with common grounds and something to hope for. We deserve hope as much as we have to face tragedy.

Sobriska
Feb. 7, 2007, 07:54 PM
Not infuriating. Just poorly written and rather stupid, IMO.
Doubtful the twit will win any awards and go on to be able to donate to any worthy cause.

lizathenag
Feb. 7, 2007, 08:13 PM
one of the down sides of a free press is people get to state their opinions.

he makes some valid points.

sorry you had to retype it. here is the link (http://media.www.dailycampus.com/media/storage/paper340/news/2007/02/06/Commentary/Forget.Barbaro.Remember.Humans-2701320.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dailycampus.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com&refsource=collegeheadlines)

monstrpony
Feb. 7, 2007, 08:19 PM
Unfortunately, the level of rationality in that article is typical of many of today's college students. Their world view is in the process of expanding like a naiscent big bang, and their priorities are much more roughly developed than their egos.

One of the interesting things I've gotten out of thinking about the issues raised by this type of reaction to the Barbaro story is a simple acceptance of exactly what Laurierace alluded to. Everyone is entitled to pick their causes--at least, in the society that fostered the Barbaro phenomenon, which happens to be the one we live in, this is true. And, there are inherent unbalances in the world about which we can do only very little. I'm very much of two minds on this myself; that the experience of trying to save Barbaro was very valuable, and that the resources expended on the effort could have done any number of other valuable things. But it was not my choice, so perhaps the best strategy is to simply enjoy the good things that the whole experience offered--and there were a great number of good things to come out of it--and then to quietly reconsider my own priorities in the small contribution I can make to making the world a better place.

That said, I'd better get back to banging my head against the brick wall that is higher education ... :rolleyes:

Tiempo
Feb. 7, 2007, 08:38 PM
"Equine equivalent of athletes foot"

Well,there's a little illustration of his grasp on the topic.

Laurierace
Feb. 7, 2007, 08:46 PM
"Equine equivalent of athletes foot"

Well,there's a little illustration of his grasp on the topic.

I missed that the first time! Might be a tad of an understatement huh? Maybe we'll get lucky and he will get the human equivalent of hoof kicked firmly upon tender butt flesh.

Frog
Feb. 7, 2007, 09:15 PM
"For starters, it isn't anyone's business what they spend their money on" :yes: :yes: :D :D :D


What a dumb non-argument. Why do people even read their paper, when they should be feeding starving children and donating the 1.50 that the paper cost to AIDS research. They may as well not print it.

Laurierace
Feb. 7, 2007, 09:21 PM
"For starters, it isn't anyone's business what they spend their money on" :yes: :yes: :D :D :D


What a dumb non-argument. Why do people even read their paper, when they should be feeding starving children and donating the 1.50 that the paper cost to AIDS research. They may as well not print it.

OOOhhh you might be on to something!

fish
Feb. 7, 2007, 09:58 PM
I wonder why so few people seem to consider how much better off our whole planet would be if more humans placed more value on species other than our own.

tobruk
Feb. 7, 2007, 10:43 PM
Wasn't it Ghandi who stated that a society will be shaped or know for how they treat their animals? Barbaro has helped to heal part of society.

alysheba
Feb. 7, 2007, 10:59 PM
How pathetic of the writer to try to dictate what Barbaros owner should spend his money on....AIDs in 3rd world countries...Good God.

Just another radical journalist who has nothing better to do with his time then stir the pot, just when the calm was starting to settle.

Clearly the writer wants Barbaros owner to be broke like him-alas, the community college remark.

Strange though..I couldn't read his political affiliation. His socialist comments scream Liberal, but his "pro-human" rhetoric hints toward a more Conservative POV....interesting. We may have a true life Moderate on our hands!!!

Regardless, I found his thought pattern hard to follow. It was just a senseless tirade.

Appassionato
Feb. 7, 2007, 11:31 PM
I can see some of his point, although very poorly stated. He would have done better not to rant. Then again, his ranting got attention. "Score", I suppose.
HLAS mentioned something that does bother me a bit. My BO's son is somewhat disabled from the military/Iraq. I say "somewhat", they won't give him full disability yet (medical leave for a year). They even discontinued a needful medical IV treatment because they feel it's "too expensive". Now here's this young man, not old enough to drink, that frankly isn't sure he can go to school somedays (at least they've allowed him to go to school) because he might have an accident. What a way to live. And no offense, but some of you can't believe someone said in so many words, "Barbaro's dead, get over it now?" I'm a little shocked at the suggestion of how much better the world would be if we treated animals better...I'm all for treating animals better, and I too cried when Barbaro passed (even if it was relief for him). But sheesh, guys! Think!

Flame away if you feel the need.

darkmoonlady
Feb. 7, 2007, 11:51 PM
I say the author is comparing apples to oranges. To say that an owner can't spend their own money should they so choose while others go without health care isn't a fair assessment. If the author had used say plastic surgery expenses I could see the comparison, but this is an animal.

People spend money on what they spend it on. The same thing happend when Oprah opened up a school for girls in South Africa, there were cries of why not here. Whether it is valid or not, it is her money to with as she so chooses. Would the author of the article like his or her financial history made public and held under scrutiny? I doubt it.

alysheba
Feb. 8, 2007, 12:14 AM
Although he was very callous, we can't expect him to understand where we horse folks are coming from. Kind of like how I don't understand that whole NASCAR thing..but when Dale Earnhart died-Lord, you would have thought Jesus himself had been strung up. To this day I still see at least a dozen "in memory of #3" bumper/window stickers. He was their "Barbaro"

When you look at it from that perspective, it's a little easier to let it roll off your back.

JMO.

Appassionato
Feb. 8, 2007, 12:22 AM
Although he was very callous, we can't expect him to understand where we horse folks are coming from. Kind of like how I don't understand that whole NASCAR thing..but when Dale Earnhart died-Lord, you would have thought Jesus himself had been strung up. To this day I still see at least a dozen "in memory of #3" bumper/window stickers. He was their "Barbaro"

When you look at it from that perspective, it's a little easier to let it roll off your back.

JMO.

Good point. While I don't do NASCAR, I was formerly into racing and appreciate what NASCAR is about. When I heard of his death, I was sincerely saddened. When John Lingenfelter died almost 3 years later, I was even more saddened.

fish
Feb. 8, 2007, 10:21 AM
I can see some of his point, although very poorly stated. He would have done better not to rant. Then again, his ranting got attention. "Score", I suppose.
HLAS mentioned something that does bother me a bit. My BO's son is somewhat disabled from the military/Iraq. I say "somewhat", they won't give him full disability yet (medical leave for a year). They even discontinued a needful medical IV treatment because they feel it's "too expensive". Now here's this young man, not old enough to drink, that frankly isn't sure he can go to school somedays (at least they've allowed him to go to school) because he might have an accident. What a way to live. And no offense, but some of you can't believe someone said in so many words, "Barbaro's dead, get over it now?" I'm a little shocked at the suggestion of how much better the world would be if we treated animals better...I'm all for treating animals better, and I too cried when Barbaro passed (even if it was relief for him). But sheesh, guys! Think!

Flame away if you feel the need.

I AM thinking. If people gave some consideration for the needs of other species, we wouldn't, for example, be destroying their habitats-- which also, just coincidentally, happens to be our own. From an evolutionary point of view, what we humans with our human-centered greed and overpopulation are doing to this planet reminds me of the "oxygen holocaust" during which oxygen-producing anerobic bacteria came to dominate the planet to the extent that they ended up being poisoned off by their own waste. Kind of ironic to me that we, the "wise" (sapiens) species seem to be marching down the same path as brainless bacteria. Isn't that after all, what global warming, for example, comes down to?

As Ms. Gardner says in her article, people who show compassion for animals tend to be the same ones who are thoughtful toward other people.

Appassionato
Feb. 8, 2007, 12:29 PM
I AM thinking. If people gave some consideration for the needs of other species, we wouldn't, for example, be destroying their habitats-- which also, just coincidentally, happens to be our own. From an evolutionary point of view, what we humans with our human-centered greed and overpopulation are doing to this planet reminds me of the "oxygen holocaust" during which oxygen-producing anerobic bacteria came to dominate the planet to the extent that they ended up being poisoned off by their own waste. Kind of ironic to me that we, the "wise" (sapiens) species seem to be marching down the same path as brainless bacteria. Isn't that after all, what global warming, for example, comes down to?

As Ms. Gardner says in her article, people who show compassion for animals tend to be the same ones who are thoughtful toward other people.

My post was not meant rudely. However, it seems the same people "thinking of Barbaro" are thinking of animals only. I believe that was also the writer's point as well, how short-sighted people can sometimes be.

As far as global warming, no cause that I know of has been confirmed yet.

lizathenag
Feb. 8, 2007, 12:43 PM
As far as global warming, no cause that I know of has been confirmed yet.


Watch An Inconvenient Truth. . .

not to detrail this thread but really. . .

juliab
Feb. 8, 2007, 01:35 PM
How much money did Barbaro win? Seems to me he paid for his hospital stay in advance.

And please don't bring the Gospel according to Al Gore into this argument - sheesh!

Appassionato
Feb. 8, 2007, 01:45 PM
How much money did Barbaro win? Seems to me he paid for his hospital stay in advance.

It's listed in many places, and it was a reasonably sized chunk of change!


And please don't bring the Gospel according to Al Gore into this argument - sheesh!

Well stated. ;)

citymouse
Feb. 8, 2007, 02:05 PM
I mean, i guess it falls under "free speach" but how can a university, whose own horses are, or where, in quarantine because of the horrible EHV allow something like this horrible tirade to be printed!?!

We, who are poor as church mice, just spent every last dollar and even owe a substantial more for trying to save our horse during colic surgery on monday/tuesday! i sincerely hope that this "boy" does not have animals of his own nor does his family, what do they do to them, just get tired of looking at them one day, then...

To attack the Jacksons for spending THEIR MONEY on an animal that THEY and that they allowed EVERYONE to love! What would his attack be on Dr. R, what did he have to gain? You could not tell me that any person, any where could not feel his pain at that press conference!

And what is he out spending his money, or shall I say, daddy's money on!?! How about not wearing, I'm sure those designer duds, and try going without, and donating some of your own time and money to a cause, a homeless shelter, a hospital, anything!

Barbaro gave us hope and love at a difficult time in this world, that is why america and the world fell in love with him!

fish
Feb. 8, 2007, 02:51 PM
[QUOTE=
As far as global warming, no cause that I know of has been confirmed yet.[/QUOTE]


Apparently you've ignored the findings of the international forum recently conducted in Paris. This is, I believe the 3rd annual one, with each one reaching the same conclusion with increasingly strong scientific evidence. I'm afraid that human activity/greenhouse gases has extremely strong confirmation.

Laurierace
Feb. 8, 2007, 03:18 PM
Apparently you've ignored the findings of the international forum recently conducted in Paris. This is, I believe the 3rd annual one, with each one reaching the same conclusion with increasingly strong scientific evidence. I'm afraid that human activity/greenhouse gases has extremely strong confirmation.

And Barbaro's owners attempting to save his life had no bearing on that conclusion and is therefore irrelevant to the topic at ahnd.

Appassionato
Feb. 8, 2007, 03:31 PM
Apparently you've ignored the findings of the international forum recently conducted in Paris. This is, I believe the 3rd annual one, with each one reaching the same conclusion with increasingly strong scientific evidence. I'm afraid that human activity/greenhouse gases has extremely strong confirmation.

No, it's theory. There can be plenty of evidence for a theory, and it still not be a law.

But as Laurierace put it, it has no bearing on Barbaro and the attempts to save him made by his owners.

cyberbay
Feb. 8, 2007, 03:37 PM
I'm listening, Fish about g. warming and about the abusive and disrespectful ways humans can treat the earth-- when it's the very thing that keeps them alive!

And it IS pertinent to this thread, as the OP was commenting, I think, about respect for everyone and all. G. warming is a result of that lack of respect, I think Fish was saying. It's an example of the same type of thinking and behavior.

But back to this youngster at UConn. Anyone who says something is more important than another has some growing to do. To truly love is to love everything -- your love of one thing is emblematic of love for all thing. Not just your own, as that wouldn't be love. And this then gives one insight into how other people or living creatures value things. Whether its NASCAR, horses, sailing, gardening, if you love what you do, have a genuine passion, you can instantly understand the stranger next to you who is talking about his own passion. The actual subject isn't the purpose, it's the act of loving that permeates everything.

Auventera Two
Feb. 8, 2007, 04:39 PM
People need to keep things in perspective. It's fine to feel crappy about a famous horse dying, but please - KEEP.THINGS.IN.PERSPECTIVE.

fish
Feb. 8, 2007, 06:15 PM
No, it's theory. There can be plenty of evidence for a theory, and it still not be a law.



The consensus I've heard from the scientific community is that the accummulated evidence now means that in the past year the statistical probability of that "theory" being correct has risen from 80+% to over 90% in the past year. Even American power companies are now complaining that the Bush administration has been irresponsible in its negligible, belated, and often hypocritical responses to the problem.

Personally, I don't like the idea of holding our present cards with them being the odds.

farmgirl88
Feb. 8, 2007, 07:10 PM
I was never saying i completely disagree entirely with him either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, without a doubt. I just think its rediculous when someone with no common knowledge of horses, can write such a thing. Granted people are dying of all sorts of things and people in america are pverty stricken, but why does he state at the end of his article that the newspapers should've been filled with the news of a senator joining in to run for the white house...doesnt that cost millions and millions of dollars to campaign?

And he also states that Exxon-Mobil made the greatest profits ever in one year...well why dont they donate some of their profits which is a helluva lot more than what was spent to try and save Barbaro. While Barbaro was sort of an experiment, without the jackson's money spent to try and attempt something totally new, we would've never known any of this was possible, its a learning experiment, much like the money we spend on today's medical experiments for humans.

i dont think there is any possible way you can derive the fact that our society is messed up from Barbaro's story. For me, my horses are like me own children and many people do not understand that love and compassion, so it leads them to make such irrational statements as this young gentleman. if he wasn't so biased, and angry throughout his article, i may have actually sided with his thoughts, but he was beyond negative about the equestrian aspect of the story and all for politics and BS in my eyes.

Dazednconfused
Feb. 8, 2007, 07:20 PM
I personally think there is a valid argument there; why is a horse entitled to such premier medical attention when there are millions of people who do not receive adequate preventative care - the problem is the article is so badly written, it is shocking that a University would actually have it's name associated with it

I, uh, think it might have been dictated by the OP.

leadliner
Feb. 8, 2007, 07:30 PM
I think that article has little value at all for the following reasons:

1) He can't spell; ergo, he gets none of my respect.
2) One could make his argument about anything. Why isn't he bitching about how much attention we're giving to Paris Hilton or Anna Nicole Smith and all the money we spend on luxury items? I mean, really, people, stop being so selfish -- do you really need your three-bedroom house? People starving in Africa live in huts! You should buy a hut and give all your interior decorating money and the difference in housing costs to people in Africa!

This same bat argument is made over and over again. If you've got it, you flaunt it. Hello, people, it's a capitalistic society here. Get used to it.

Dazednconfused
Feb. 8, 2007, 08:31 PM
Again, I think the OP dictated the article, judging from other posts she's made.

JAGold
Feb. 8, 2007, 08:47 PM
I think the author of the article was using hyperbole to make a point. Which he did. And on some level, I agree with him. But I think in the end, his indignation is somewhat misplaced. He says,
Barbaro was a horse, not a person, and should have never been treated better than a human being.He's missing the point. The problem isn't that Barbaro was treated well/comprehensively; it's that there are millions of people who are not. The solution isn't to abuse animals -- it's to take care of people.

(Oh, and for those who want to read the article with it's original spelling ;) it's posted on the school paper's website (http://www.dailycampus.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=8f5d09f2-df41-4b5c-b0a1-2eb3ee2f266d).) --Jess

Coup De Des
Feb. 9, 2007, 07:25 AM
People need to keep things in perspective. It's fine to feel crappy about a famous horse dying, but please - KEEP.THINGS.IN.PERSPECTIVE.

Holy mother of god.. I agree with TS. Spank my ass and call me charlie!

At the end of the day it was a horse.


There are millions of innocent children starving to death every. single. day.

One child's life is worth a TRILLION horse's lives. I don't care what you say. It is true.

Auventera Two
Feb. 9, 2007, 08:55 AM
Good post Coup. :lol: I agree with you. At the end of the day, it's a horse. Like I said on another thread, I lost my horses tragically to barn fire. It devestated me for a while and hurt like heck, but every day I was just so thankful it wasn't my family who'd died in a fire. As cold as that seems, I'd rather it be horses than my mother, or husband, or stepfather, etc. I love horses dearly, they're my passion, and I devote a tremendous amount of resources, money, and emotions, to my girls. But you're right, at the end of the day, they're horses.

fish
Feb. 9, 2007, 09:31 AM
Holy mother of god.. I agree with TS. Spank my ass and call me charlie!

At the end of the day it was a horse.


There are millions of innocent children starving to death every. single. day.

One child's life is worth a TRILLION horse's lives. I don't care what you say. It is true.

And what kind of god are you to be determining what life is worth more than what? I really think we need to keep in mind that "perspective" is a very individual thing and each species has a built in prejudice towards its own. Just as you think a child's life is worth "a trillion horses," I can assure you that, push come to shove, from MY perspective, each of MY child's lives is worth a trillion of YOURS. It's only by getting past that perspective with the aid of our supposedly superior intellects, and learning to value ALL life on the planet and respecting a wide variety of "perspectives" that we'll ever have anything resembling peace or a global environment that isn't savaged by greed.

IMO, Too Simple is just that. What's right from her point of view is not necessarily even healthy for others. In the meanwhile what damage does it really do anyone if people grieve for Barbaro as they would a child?

In the meanwhile, I do find ironic all these complaints about the price of Barbaro's medical care considering that he earned more than enough to pay for it himself. How many human children can say the same-- or even have as much potential either for earning $ or giving joy and inspiration as that horse did? Again, I am not saying that a horse's life is "worth" as much as a human's or anything of the sort. What I am trying to say is that there really IS NO OBJECTIVE MEASURE of such things and it just might be worthwhile to concentrate on keeping the planet as a whole capable of supporting life as we know it instead of continually fighting over who or what "deserves" more of its resources.

Auventera Two
Feb. 9, 2007, 10:37 AM
It's a pretty sick person that puts the life of a horse before the life of a child.

Anne FS
Feb. 9, 2007, 10:42 AM
The article was amazingly poorly written.

The spelling errors are the OPs, though; she said she retyped it and apologized for any errors. The poor writing quality, though, is the author's.
Nevertheless, for horselovers to go into a "rampage" :rolleyes: is just as intolerant an attitude as the author's.

A rampage? Really? I was at New Bolton yesterday, hadn't been in a while, and I admit I had a 'moment' when I walked in and saw all the wreaths and floral bouquets still around.

However, the author was making the point that we are "rampaging" about this death while people are dying horrible deaths in Iraq EVERY DAY. How would you feel if you'd lost someone there and understandably the rest of the world just shrugged and moved on? Aren't those young people symbols of hope? Of promise? Weren't they loved and didn't they love in return?
Tolerance is a two-way street, people.

I agree with the article posted (Fredricksburg paper) where the woman intelligently said that those mourning Barbaro are also mourning other wrongs, and also many of them are putting their money to fix other wrongs.

Laurierace
Feb. 9, 2007, 11:45 AM
I too was wondering how long the lobby at New Bolton will remain a Barbaro shrine of sorts. It is a beautiful testament to a wonderful horse. I can't imagine they can keep it like that forever, but on the other hand it will be sad to see it all go and just go back to being a lobby. All the more reason for a Mid-Atlantic racing museum as has been proposed for years now.

fish
Feb. 9, 2007, 11:47 AM
It's a pretty sick person that puts the life of a horse before the life of a child.

IMO, the sickest and most destructive people are those who cannot see anyone else's perspective except their own.

Do you have any idea how many people have put you on their ignore list precisely because you have been so thick-headed, presumptuous and judgmental in this forum? Has it ever occurred to you that precisely the features that YOU think make YOU healthier than others are precisely those which make you look pretty sick in other eyes (e.g., I hope you are aware that lack of empathy is a symptom of mental illness). You keep talking about putting this, that and the other thing "in perspective," while IMHO your own perspective is about as narrow and lopsided as they come.

I, too, have lost horses, the most painful loss came 5 years ago, and I still grieve. That's my right. It's none of your business. It causes no one any more harm than your "putting things behind and going on." I hope that the depth and duration of my grief has made me more sensitive to the feelings of others, just as I believe your "going on" may well have made you callous. I've also come within a hair of losing a child-- up to and including viewing her lifeless body and being told by her Drs. that she was brain dead and never going to recover. Thank goodness for the horses who helped me keep my sanity through that ordeal and its prolonged aftermath. I have good reason to believe that no one can possibly imagine what it's like to look at the lifeless body of of one's own baby until s/he has done it-- and that includes imagining the feelings of mothers of other species who likewise bond to their young. There IS no comparing, so IMO, the comparing should just plain STOP!! It's time you 'got a grip' of THIS and went on, instead of continually passing judgment on how others elect to handle their own feelings OR invest in caring for those they love.

Laurierace
Feb. 9, 2007, 12:06 PM
Well said Fish. What I don't understand is why the comparisons are being made in the first place. As much as the Jackson's love Barbaro I would be willing to bet that if they were told that euthanizing Barbaro on the track and not attempting to save him would put an end to world hunger, aids, global warming, the war in Iraq etc. He would have been put down right then and there. But being that Barbaro and his struggles to live have absolutely no bearing on any of those things, or really no bearing on anything other than his struggle to live, why bother to discuss it? I would give my OWN life right here and now, if I could instantly do any of the above, but I can't. Does that mean I should stop living my life as well since that is not a possible outcome?

Anne FS
Feb. 9, 2007, 12:07 PM
I too was wondering how long the lobby at New Bolton will remain a Barbaro shrine of sorts.

Oh, I don't think they were keeping it a shrine. The stuff was here, there & everywhere, but out of way, if you get my drift. There wasn't a big altar of floral tributes under the Barbaro painting or anything. I think it's just that so many people sent things to the staff (which was nice to remember and thank them), and NBC was just being thoughtful and not pitching the stuff out.

Laurierace
Feb. 9, 2007, 12:15 PM
Well I haven't been there since he died, but when I was last in the lobby, virtually every inch of wall space was covered with Barbaro stuff. It really was a beautiful sight and one that you couldn't walk by without taking a second to pause and take it all in.

17handtb
Feb. 9, 2007, 02:21 PM
I really think we need to keep in mind that "perspective" is a very individual thing and each species has a built in prejudice towards its own. Just as you think a child's life is worth "a trillion horses," I can assure you that, push come to shove, from MY perspective, each of MY child's lives is worth a trillion of YOURS. It's only by getting past that perspective with the aid of our supposedly superior intellects, and learning to value ALL life on the planet and respecting a wide variety of "perspectives" that we'll ever have anything resembling peace or a global environment that isn't savaged by greed.



This is one of the best things I've ever read on this forum. :yes:

Imagine if such a lesson - to value ALL life - might actually be learned in our lifetime...though as I get older, the more I see of all too many people, the less I believe that can happen.

eggbutt
Feb. 9, 2007, 04:12 PM
IMO, the sickest and most destructive people are those who cannot see anyone else's perspective except their own.

Do you have any idea how many people have put you on their ignore list precisely because you have been so thick-headed, presumptuous and judgmental in this forum? Has it ever occurred to you that precisely the features that YOU think make YOU healthier than others are precisely those which make you look pretty sick in other eyes (e.g., I hope you are aware that lack of empathy is a symptom of mental illness). You keep talking about putting this, that and the other thing "in perspective," while IMHO your own perspective is about as narrow and lopsided as they come.

I, too, have lost horses, the most painful loss came 5 years ago, and I still grieve. That's my right. It's none of your business. It causes no one any more harm than your "putting things behind and going on." I hope that the depth and duration of my grief has made me more sensitive to the feelings of others, just as I believe your "going on" may well have made you callous. I've also come within a hair of losing a child-- up to and including viewing her lifeless body and being told by her Drs. that she was brain dead and never going to recover. Thank goodness for the horses who helped me keep my sanity through that ordeal and its prolonged aftermath. I have good reason to believe that no one can possibly imagine what it's like to look at the lifeless body of of one's own baby until s/he has done it-- and that includes imagining the feelings of mothers of other species who likewise bond to their young. There IS no comparing, so IMO, the comparing should just plain STOP!! It's time you 'got a grip' of THIS and went on, instead of continually passing judgment on how others elect to handle their own feelings OR invest in caring for those they love.

Perfectly stated Fish......PLEASE just put this bitter person on your ignore list rather than spending one second of your life being subjected to her opinions.

LyndaPellitteri31
Feb. 9, 2007, 04:22 PM
I have found that the best thing to do is ignore the ugly ignorant articles written about Barbaro. Most of them, if not all, are written by people who have no idea what they are talking about. I have read this one and one other one where the student doesn't even know proper english. They can't even get a sentence right. What in the world are they teaching these kids???

clpony
Feb. 9, 2007, 07:08 PM
Nothing can provide more hope in times of despair than a race horse. Look at Seabiscuit.....In a time of great national strain Americans have a habit of projecting our dreams onto racehorses. During the height of the Depression our country became enamored with the scrawny small colt, Seabiscuit.

During Watergate and the Vietnam War it was Secreatiat who won our imagination, proving that good things were still yes, possible.

It is a great way to unite all Americans and heal our differences!!

Coup De Des
Feb. 9, 2007, 09:23 PM
I do find ironic all these complaints about the price of Barbaro's medical care considering that he earned more than enough to pay for it himself. How many human children can say the same-- or even have as much potential either for earning $ or giving joy and inspiration as that horse did?



Implying that a child is "less" than the horse because the child cannot earn his keep or provide as much joy and inspiration as a horse can is pretty damned sad. If it wasn't mean that way, then please forgive my comment. I certainly hope you didn't mean it that way.


Agree with two simple. READ what fish wrote???? WTF???? WHO thinks that way???? Christ almighty... I'm getting the hell out of the racing forum..

N&B&T
Feb. 10, 2007, 08:59 AM
IM(vh)O, the young man who wrote the article gets an A for awareness and activism but definitely flunks logic and ecology. :eek:

It's a lot easier to write an article about "just an animal" (whose owners he imagines are only motivated by money) than to write the same article, but, emphasing the obscene salaries of sports stars and celebrities. And why are the networks (his future colleagues) wasting time on Anna-Marie when they should be doing documentaries on the African AIDS epidemic and the numerous other horrendous living situations in third world countires? Maybe food for his next article? ;)

As for his fellow students--let them enjoy their college basketball games now, they will have the rest of their lives to figure out how to run the county and the planet. Not an easy job.

I would love it if this kid won the lottery and we could see if he puts his money where his mouth is. :D

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 10, 2007, 10:19 AM
The consensus I've heard from the scientific community is that the accummulated evidence now means that in the past year the statistical probability of that "theory" being correct has risen from 80+% to over 90% in the past year. Even American power companies are now complaining that the Bush administration has been irresponsible in its negligible, belated, and often hypocritical responses to the problem.

Personally, I don't like the idea of holding our present cards with them being the odds.


Um, no Appassionato is correct. It is theory, and there is actually more evidence against the theory that humans are causing global warming, and even more evidence against the theory that humans can fix the problem. As for the Union Of Scientists..only a percentage of them are actual scientists. The rest are a bunch of glorified dog-mushers.

I suggest doing more research into what actually went down at that summit in Paris before you start preaching The Gospel According To Al Gore.

Also, as far as Bush being irresponsible about global warming-he has approved FAR more spending for research into global warming than Clinton ever did. That article that he hasn't was a cover for the real story about the scientists who have evidence AGAINST humans causing global warming being banned from the summit. Yeah, you read it correctly-BANNED FROM THE SUMMIT!! How's that for being "judgemental and one sided?" If you want to get up in arms about something, that would be a more logical choice.

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 10, 2007, 10:55 AM
Look, in my opinion his rant was pretty unjustified. He is of course entitled to his opinion, and should be allowed to express it, but when common sense (which SOOO few people have-and when they express it they are usually labeled as "judgemental and closed minded) must prevail in this discussion. And common sense says that Barbaros owners are entitled to spend their money on whatever they want to. There are other ways to fix the problem of spreading AIDs in Third World countries (here's an idea, stop f***ing!!!) than taking Barbaros' owners money. BTW, please forgive me calling these people Barbaros owners, there were so many people involved from owners to trainers to grooms to vets, I was never able to get all the names straight.:o

Once we start picking apart Barbaros owners spending habits, that opens the door to critiquing your own. From what I read, margaritas are a popular commodity on this board. Do you know how much it costs to buy the ingredients to make a good Margaretta? About $40! And don't even get me started on what they cost per glass in a bar-$4-$8 each! Now, couldn't you send that money to some starving kids in Rwanda? Is my point coming through? I'm sure the writer of that column has some spending habits I would question, but it isn't my business. People are entitled to spend their money on whatever they want to spend it on. And I applaud Barbaros owners for having enough money to take care of this horse in the first place.

As far as the thought that people are taking his death too hard. That has nothing to do with common sense, and I will explain why I feel that way. When I was growing up in the late 80's-early 90's, I had a pretty rough childhood. The great race horses of that time (Ferdinand, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, Unbridled, Go For Wand) were truly my heroes. I never knew how MUCH they meant to me until this month in one of my horse mags there was an article about tours available at all the big TB farms in Kentucky. Just looking at the pictures of the grave of Secretariat and the halter nameplates of Easy Goer and Unbridled-all who have passed on, just reduced me to tears. My husband didn't know what to say, and he certainly didn't understand what I was going through, and he certainly didn't say "For Gods sakes, it's just a horse!" Instead he just let me be.

My point is, we can't judge how people feel about the passing of Barbaro because we don't know what he meant to them, or how his fight affected their lives. We don't have to understand, but we could just accept that we DON'T understand and leave these people be.

All this, is just my opinion. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

fish
Feb. 10, 2007, 11:05 AM
Um, no Appassionato is correct. It is theory, and there is actually more evidence against the theory that humans are causing global warming, and even more evidence against the theory that humans can fix the problem. As for the Union Of Scientists..only a percentage of them are actual scientists. The rest are a bunch of glorified dog-mushers.

I suggest doing more research into what actually went down at that summit in Paris before you start preaching The Gospel According To Al Gore.

Actually, you are misleadig pretty seriously here. The evidence is that global warming has already reached a state where measures taken now would take 2 or 3 generations to produce visible results. This is FAR from saying that we aren't responsible for the problem or cannot take measures which could benefit the future of the planet, including our own species. Quite to the contrary, it suggests we'd best get off our butts NOW, before the process DOES become completely irreversible.

As for my familiarity with what's going on in the "scientific community," my brother is a scientist and inventor who's been working in the fields of energy production and its effects on the environment for over 30 years. He's been pretty frustrated by short-sighted greed-based blindess for decades-- even as he's made a bunch of $ himself designing machines for oil extraction. (His consolation there is that at least his machines are kinder to the environment than others.)

fish
Feb. 10, 2007, 11:12 AM
Agree with two simple. READ what fish wrote???? WTF???? WHO thinks that way???? Christ almighty... I'm getting the hell out of the racing forum..

I would like to suggest that you read (and cite) things in context. My entire point was that comparing/arguing about the "value" of different lives is both insensitive and pointless.

Sad thing is, however, that the reference to earning capacity and the like is, in fact, reflective of the way our own legal system does things-- just take a look at wrongful death suits, etc.-- including the apportionment of $ following the 9/11 disaster: family's losses are routinely evaluated and damages apportioned based upon estimates of the earning potential of the lost loved one.

We humans have built a pretty sick world in lots of ways.

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 10, 2007, 11:30 AM
Actually, you are misleadig pretty seriously here. The evidence is that global warming has already reached a state where measures taken now would take 2 or 3 generations to produce visible results. This is FAR from saying that we aren't responsible for the problem or cannot take measures which could benefit the future of the planet, including our own species. Quite to the contrary, it suggests we'd best get off our butts NOW, before the process DOES become completely irreversible.

As for my familiarity with what's going on in the "scientific community," my brother is a scientist and inventor who's been working in the fields of energy production and its effects on the environment for over 30 years. He's been pretty frustrated by short-sighted greed-based blindess for decades-- even as he's made a bunch of $ himself designing machines for oil extraction. (His consolation there is that at least his machines are kinder to the environment than others.)

Uh-huh. Ok well then explain to me the last cycle of global warming that put the earth into an ice age..you know the one thousands of years ago when there weren't any Buicks around to blame? Or the one before that? Or the one before that? They can't blame them all on meteors-especially when woolly mammoths are found perfectly preserved with food in their mouths.

Fish, the earth moves in cycles. It has a life span, just like crops do. There is a period of dormancy, followed by growth, followed by a period of flourishing (like we are in now) and then it goes through a recession until it lays dormant again-until the next grow cycle. We can't stop this recession anymore than we could keep a crop of corn alive forever.

The global warming paranoia that these people are using to strike fear in your heart is nothing more than a ploy to undermine the oil companies, who's wealth they SOO much resent (even though the Government profits more per gallon of gas then the oil companies do-a fact most people don't know) and to create controlling regulations on everything that we do (like hybrid cars and the smoking bans). Its not about the environment, it's about using fear to control and manipulate people. There is a scientist at the University Of Minnesota who did a blind interview about the distortion of global warming and how he has been silenced by threats to take away his grants and other funding. The powers-that-be behind this junk science are VERY strong. It would take someone pretty powerful to ban an entire group of INVITED and credible scientists to the summit in Paris..don't you think?

It shocks me that when something like N.A.I.S comes along people get so upset, but they are totally blind to the ulterior motives behind global warming .

Al Gores movie was nothing more than a documentary about what happens during the natural cycle of the earth..he just twisted it to say humans are responsible instead of nature.

I hope you don't still believe that the polar bears are going extinct do you? Because that theory was disproved over a month ago-yet there was no retraction in the media about it..hmmmmmmmm...

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 10, 2007, 11:37 AM
He's been pretty frustrated by short-sighted greed-based blindess for decades-- even as he's made a bunch of $ himself designing machines for oil extraction. (His consolation there is that at least his machines are kinder to the environment than others.)

Well, what I want to know is, has he given any of that money to stop the spead of AIDs in Africa????? :lol: :lol: :lol:

fish
Feb. 10, 2007, 12:56 PM
Uh-huh. Ok well then explain to me the last cycle of global warming that put the earth into an ice age..you know the one thousands of years ago when there weren't any Buicks around to blame? Or the one before that? Or the one before that? They can't blame them all on meteors-especially when woolly mammoths are found perfectly preserved with food in their mouths.

Fish, the earth moves in cycles. It has a life span, just like crops do. There is a period of dormancy, followed by growth, followed by a period of flourishing (like we are in now) and then it goes through a recession until it lays dormant again-until the next grow cycle. We can't stop this recession anymore than we could keep a crop of corn alive forever.

The global warming paranoia that these people are using to strike fear in your heart is nothing more than a ploy to undermine the oil companies, who's wealth they SOO much resent (even though the Government profits more per gallon of gas then the oil companies do-a fact most people don't know) and to create controlling regulations on everything that we do (like hybrid cars and the smoking bans). Its not about the environment, it's about using fear to control and manipulate people. There is a scientist at the University Of Minnesota who did a blind interview about the distortion of global warming and how he has been silenced by threats to take away his grants and other funding. The powers-that-be behind this junk science are VERY strong. It would take someone pretty powerful to ban an entire group of INVITED and credible scientists to the summit in Paris..don't you think?

It shocks me that when something like N.A.I.S comes along people get so upset, but they are totally blind to the ulterior motives behind global warming .

Al Gores movie was nothing more than a documentary about what happens during the natural cycle of the earth..he just twisted it to say humans are responsible instead of nature.

I hope you don't still believe that the polar bears are going extinct do you? Because that theory was disproved over a month ago-yet there was no retraction in the media about it..hmmmmmmmm...

Natural cycles, including previous global warmings, have never moved at the pace that Global warming has. That is, FYI, part of the scientific information.

And my brother is extremely conscientious in the ways he handles his money-- not that that is any of your business.

merrygoround
Feb. 10, 2007, 02:01 PM
A totally under-researched, poorly written, poorly spelled, personal rant from a sophomoric brain.

Adamantane
Feb. 10, 2007, 02:33 PM
Apparently you've ignored the findings of the international forum recently conducted in Paris. This is, I believe the 3rd annual one, with each one reaching the same conclusion with increasingly strong scientific evidence. I'm afraid that human activity/greenhouse gases has extremely strong confirmation.

Yes, there is quite a constituency. But it's not exactly a consensus, as this petition of scientists who disagree (begun in 2001) suggests, no matter what the media assert.

Consider:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

Let's not derail the thread with that sidebar.

Back on the thread topic:

The nice thing about a free society is that ideologues like the UCONN guy can rant and fuss.

He can spend his money as he wishes, others can spend their money as they wish.

He can like what he finds important, others can like what they find important.

It's no big deal that some activist wants other people to share his world view and is incensed that so many have the gall not to.

College newspapers have contained this sort of stuff forever, and they always will.

When was the last time an article in a college newspaper made any difference? No sense getting adrenalized about it. All my college newspaper columns seemed like so much dust in the wind. (The only exception was when one so p.o.'d another columnist that he wrote a column to condemn mine.:yes: Seems my poking fun at what probably was Neil Young's worst song ever, Helpless, really crunched his bunions.:lol:)

As someone once said, today's newspaper wraps tomorrow's fish.:winkgrin:

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 10, 2007, 02:56 PM
Natural cycles, including previous global warmings, have never moved at the pace that Global warming has. That is, FYI, part of the scientific information.

And my brother is extremely conscientious in the ways he handles his money-- not that that is any of your business.


First of all, the comment about your brother was a joke in respect to the writer of this article (we are supposed to be discussing;) )saying that Barbaros owners should have spent the money stopping AIDS in Africa. I was trying to lighten the mood.

The natural cycles are not moving any faster than they have in the past. Inside the huge realm of global warming there are "little" warming and cooling trends. One of them being the melting and redevelopment of the Polar Ice Caps, which were so profoundly misrepresented in Al Gores movie. It happens every 1500 years. What Al failed to report was the re-freezing that is happening on the other side.

Like I said (and a fact you keep skirting around) if global warming was able to be stopped by human intervention then the scientists who represented the other side of the issue would have been allowed to attend the summit, instead of being banned at the last minute. Somebody obviously didn't want us to have that information.

I'm sorry Fish, but the info you are being fed is a bunch of BS. Yes I agree that we Americans need to take steps to be cleaner-the air we breath isn't the best, but I think incentives, rather than laws are better ways to make people a little more environmentally conscience. However, as a matter of making an impact on the World-lets be realistic--America is only a population of 300 million people. India's Middle Class alone is over 300 million people! Not to mention China and Japan and the other more densely populated regions. Meaning no matter how many hybrid cars we drive, we are only going to make a tiny dent in improving the environment. And if you think this environmental stuff is going to fly in India--good luck!!--they throw their garbage in the streets there! They go to the bathroom in the streets to. Yuck!

fish
Feb. 11, 2007, 12:44 AM
First of all, the comment about your brother was a joke in respect to the writer of this article (we are supposed to be discussing;) )saying that Barbaros owners should have spent the money stopping AIDS in Africa. I was trying to lighten the mood.

The natural cycles are not moving any faster than they have in the past. Inside the huge realm of global warming there are "little" warming and cooling trends. One of them being the melting and redevelopment of the Polar Ice Caps, which were so profoundly misrepresented in Al Gores movie. It happens every 1500 years. What Al failed to report was the re-freezing that is happening on the other side.

Like I said (and a fact you keep skirting around) if global warming was able to be stopped by human intervention then the scientists who represented the other side of the issue would have been allowed to attend the summit, instead of being banned at the last minute. Somebody obviously didn't want us to have that information.

I'm sorry Fish, but the info you are being fed is a bunch of BS. Yes I agree that we Americans need to take steps to be cleaner-the air we breath isn't the best, but I think incentives, rather than laws are better ways to make people a little more environmentally conscience. However, as a matter of making an impact on the World-lets be realistic--America is only a population of 300 million people. India's Middle Class alone is over 300 million people! Not to mention China and Japan and the other more densely populated regions. Meaning no matter how many hybrid cars we drive, we are only going to make a tiny dent in improving the environment. And if you think this environmental stuff is going to fly in India--good luck!!--they throw their garbage in the streets there! They go to the bathroom in the streets to. Yuck!

I'm sorry I don't have the time to debate all the details of this, but, just to start, despite our relatively smaller population, the US is the leading consumer of fossil fuels in the world. Indeed, China is rapidly gaining on us, with India not far behind, and the consequences for the planet of these country following our lead in irresponsible consumption look pretty dire, indeed.

FYI, I've never watched Gore's film, never heard one of his speeches, rarely even turn on a T.V. I read and listen. Judging by the journals, radio reports, conferences, etc., it seems to me that scientists who "represent the other side of the issue" are scarce and getting scarcer with every passing day, and seem to be acquiring about as much credibility as the creationists.

Perhaps more significantly, however, it is quite obvious even to you that it would do all of us nothing but good to have cleaner air, cleaner water, etc., etc. Why not play it safe and take the precautions recommended to combat global warming since such measures are clearly in the best long term interests of all of us whether they affect climate per se or not???

I fear, however, that we're very much on the verge of leaving the topic of horses behind in favor of politics, which I'd rather not argue, especially on this BB, any further.

P.S. I'm sorry I missed your attempt at a joke. So many ludicrous things are written on the internet in utter seriousness that it can often be difficult (at least for me) to tell when someone is actually trying to be funny.

Adamantane
Feb. 11, 2007, 01:33 AM
I'm sorry I don't have the time to debate all the details of this, but, just to start, despite our relatively smaller population, the US is the leading consumer of fossil fuels in the world. Indeed, China is rapidly gaining on us, with India not far behind, and the consequences for the planet of these country following our lead in irresponsible consumption look pretty dire, indeed.

Consumption, yes. Waste, yes. Irresponsible consumption? Now that's a value judgment that has nothing to do with science or even economics. It only makes sense that energy consumption should roughly parallel production and contribution the world's economy. We consume more because we produce more. :yes: Others are gaining in both respects.:yes:


Judging by the journals, radio reports, conferences, etc., it seems to me that scientists who "represent the other side of the issue" are scarce and getting scarcer with every passing day, and seem to be acquiring about as much credibility as the creationists.

I think 17,000+ scientists, many with their advanced degrees in physical science or environment-related disciplines, who have sufficient reservations to have signed the anti-Kyoto petition I linked above, is rather a lot more than 'scarce.' At the risk of sounding just a little testy on this, I take exception to your suggestion that my scientific credibility is comparable to that of creationists, of all people, since I am one of those signatories.


Perhaps more significantly, however, it is quite obvious even to you that it would do all of us nothing but good to have cleaner air, cleaner water, etc., etc. Why not play it safe and take the precautions recommended to combat global warming since such measures are clearly in the best long term interests of all of us whether they affect climate per se or not???

Nobody probably would quibble if the cost or consequence of 'playing it safe' were negligible. Unfortunately it is not, and the means proposed to address the problem (e.g., Kyoto) interestingly seem to burden most heavily those nations whose wealth is the greatest source of envy and resentment to those nations who are the least burdened, something I do not think is coincidental.


I fear, however, that we're very much on the verge of leaving the topic of horses behind in favor of politics, which I'd rather not argue, especially on this BB, any further.

It is all well and good to make inflammatory statements and then announce that you don't wish to discuss the matter any further, but hit and run hardly seems fair, do you agree?

Of course there is a connection to horses in this subthread, namely greenhouse gas methane which is produced in copious quantities by grazing livestock such as horses.

How might we feel when some policy wonk with an agenda decides that it would be good for "all of us" to "play it safe" and restrict or even eliminate 'irresponsible' maintenance of non-food livestock since the provide costs but no tangible benefits, at least in the first world where few horses are used for production (but of course not in the third world where they are). Then it comes down to whose ox (or horse) is being gored, so to speak. (The resentful in the UK took their social activism out on foxhunting; don't think something nasty couldn't be attempted here against recreational horse owners, though I think it would fail in the foreseeable future, mainly due to western and southern Senators.)

I rather think the nitwit who wrote the editorial that kicked off this thread might be willing to propose something of that kind if the notion ever drifted into his mind, since he obviously has no time for horses, or racing or any of those socially 'irresponsible' endeavors toward which the people he so resents, decries and envies seem stubbornly bent on lavishing their resources at the expense of his pet causes.

fish
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:02 AM
Look, entire books have been written on the subjects you touch upon. It is impossible to discuss them with any kind of justice here, especially since your remark concerning the idea of anyone regarding as 'irresponsible' relative to 'tangible benefit,' or 'safety' (for humans I presume) reflects a complete misunderstanding of the personal philosophy I have tried to express on this thread.

You know (roughly) my point of view and I yours. At some point people have little alternative except to agree to disagree and I believe we've reached it.

Remember Ferdinand
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:30 AM
At some point people have little alternative except to agree to disagree and I believe we've reached it.

We certainly have. :)

Erin
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:46 AM
Drop it, folks... this isn't the place.

Anne FS
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:52 AM
Bush certainly has spent money on climate studies (more than his predecessor, that I don't know) but you're right that he has spent the money. HOWEVER, what's he done with the results? EDITED THEM TO ELIMINATE what his administration didn't like. That's the problem.

Look it up. From just one Associated Press article (and there are lots, and not just about global warming). Remember this one? In a nutshell, Bush commissioned it, and when it didn't say what he wanted it to say, the White House edited it! The White House edited a commissioned scientific study! This is not good, people:

"The Environmental Protection Agency is preparing to publish a draft report next week on the state of the environment, but after editing by the White House, a long section describing risks from rising global temperatures has been whittled to a few noncommittal paragraphs...

The editing eliminated references to many studies concluding that warming is at least partly caused by rising concentrations of smokestack and tail-pipe emissions and could threaten health and ecosystems.

Among the deletions were conclusions about the likely human contribution to warming from a 2001 report on climate by the National Research Council that the White House had commissioned and that President Bush had endorsed in speeches that year. White House officials also deleted a reference to a 1999 study showing that global temperatures had risen sharply in the previous decade compared with the last 1,000 years."

and from the end of Jan. 2007:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal scientists have been pressured by the White House to play down global warming, advocacy groups testified Tuesday ......

The hearing focused on allegations White House officials for years have micromanaged the government's climate programs and have closely controlled what scientists have been allowed to tell the public.

"It appears there may have been an orchestrated campaign to mislead the public about climate change," said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-California. ...

"This is an issue over the years whose time has come," echoed Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona....At the House hearing, two private advocacy groups produced a survey of 279 government climate scientists showing that many of them say they have been subjected to political pressure aimed at downplaying the climate threat....

The survey and separate interviews with scientists "has brought to light numerous ways in which U.S. federal climate science has been filtered, suppressed and manipulated in the last five years," Francesca Grifo, a senior scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists, told the committee.

Grifo's group, along with the Government Accountability Project, which helps whistle-blowers, produced the report.

Drew Shindell, a climate scientist with NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said that climate scientists frequently have been dissuaded from talking to the media about their research, though NASA's restrictions have been eased.

Prior to the change, interview requests of climate scientists frequently were "routed through the White House" and then turned away or delayed, said Shindell. He described how a news release on his study forecasting a significant warming in Antarctica was "repeatedly delayed, altered and watered down" at the insistence of the White House....

"We know that the White House possesses documents that contain evidence of an attempt by senior administration officials to mislead the public by injecting doubt into the science of global warming and minimize the potential danger," said Waxman, adding that he is "not trying to obtain state secrets."

Anne FS
Feb. 11, 2007, 09:01 AM
Oops, sorry, Erin. You're right. We should save this for the next Off Topic day.

I admit to sharing the frustration of the OP and of others at having to read the Barbaro opinion pieces by people who a) don't have a clue (which can be the case with anyone), and b) are not interested in getting a clue (inexcusable in those who are writing for a newspaper!).

Laurierace
Feb. 11, 2007, 11:45 AM
This idiots article didn't bother me in the least. I must admit I was more than a little pissed off when I opened the Parade magazine that comes in our Sunday paper and is I believe, distributed throughout most of the country. On the inside of the front cover they take questions from readers. They are normally questions about TV stars and how they met their significant other. I was shocked to see that in the issue dated TODAY someone asked how Barbaro was doing and they had a couple paragraph reply that basically stated he was doing well. If only.......

Adamantane
Feb. 11, 2007, 11:53 AM
Constructive Criticism


Take home lessons for Chris:

1. Do homework on next advocacy column to be sure credibility isn't undermined by lack of facts on object(s) of criticism (e.g., laminitis)

2. Anticipate and deal with obvious counter-arguments that likely will be raised, within the column's text, such as here, that the source of the funds in question is private. (Perhaps discuss the evils of allowing wealth to remain in private hands in a sidebar or companion column.)

3. Decide in advance what you hope to accomplish and direct a specific policy recommendation to accomplish it to your target audience.

4. Anticipate that attacking iconic figures generates considerable push-back, and be prepared for it. Editorializing on political disagreements with JFK the morning of November 23, 1963, was unlikely to have the intended effect.

5. Consider that scolding or attempting to shame those whose behavior you wish to change and whose emotional commitment lies on the other side, may not be a totally productive tactic. (See 4.)

6. Consider that being FOR something appealing to the audience is a better strategy than being AGAINST something appealing to that audience. Positive is more effective than negative.

7. Assess the demographics your target audience (and other parties involved) to be sure they align with your goal. (E.g., roughly half the UCONN student population is female, age 18-25, most of whom either ride or once rode horses, or wished to.)

billa.bong
Feb. 12, 2007, 08:47 PM
I can see his point, I'm not saying that I agree with it because I dont. If he had of just stuck with the point that it is absurd (and let's face it, for thoes outside the horsey community, it is) that an animal is recieving better medical care than most people in the world could ever dream of, then perhaps the article would have been adequate. The problem is that he stretches the comparisons so far that they become irrelevant and so far off from the point in the first place. Yes, people have AIDS, yes it is a big problem...but people werent sitting in front of their piggy banks flipping a coin thinking barbaro...africa...barbaro...africa and that coin just happened to land on tails. Some people chose not to donate money to Africa for various reasons ie. corruption within some organizations, lack of education about African issues, or just don't! I wonder if the author of this article donates?, then again it doesn't matter. I agree with him that most people probably find it bizarre the money and care that Barbaro recieved, however his choice of comparisons were weak.

I won't even start on whether or not the owners did it for the money because frankly I don't care and it is not my place to examine their decisions or make assumptions about things I do not know. However, I think it was wonderful that this horse was given the chance to live a long, happy life even if it did not work.