.

[Hampa]

.

[Laurierace]

It is going to really piss off Barbaro's connections that someone would have the nerve to attach his name to that ridiculous piece of garbage.

[caffeinated]

Are you KIDDING me?!?!?

[WhiteCamry]

Is this being passed around to COTH?

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/280490978?ltl=1170867475
:rolleyes:

[Frog]

It sure is going to piss them off! "Ridiculous" is the best word I think. We may not agree on rescue, Laurie, (among other reasons) because I see horses as a commodity with a value that can be bought and sold at will, but I know you know and understand every bit of economy that goes into racing (a lot more than me). (Um, I also love your FuPeg colt to the point that I want to come see him because he's quite wonderful, I love bargains, and I'm in Va and I've never been to Pimlico!) Why don't they just call it "The Petition to End Racing" in the name of a horse that won the sport's most important race!!

[Glimmerglass]

Ah, the joys of what can only be viewed as 'well meaning stupidity' by those too ignorant to understand horses - yet thinking "they are very pretty" just like My Little Pony. Did a 10 yr old girl start this petition?

No horses allowed on the track for racing and or training until they reach (the chronological) age of 5.

National Drug Standards of drug restrictions to regulate and control any and all drugs administered to horses at the track for racing and or training.

We'll have right next to the equally bloated and wasteful TSA a new US-government position of: Equine Drug Czar, yea that's the ticket.

[regret]

Where do thse people get those ideas from. I have to wonder how many know about racing.

[Jinx]

some people are so ignorant its almost funny....

[Kimberlee]

They have 84 people that have signed it so far. Doesn't really say what they are trying to prove with this though.

Can we start a different petition?

No shoes on horses ever. Unfairly restricts the natural growth of foot.
No drugs ever, they can harm a horse rather than help.
No halters or lead ropes. Becuase that unfairly restricts the horse's expression.

________

Interesting how they threw toe clips in there.

[Kimberlee]

Looking at the site we could start a petition:)

[lizathenag]

My understanding is that e-petitions are not worth the paper they are not written on. . .
What snopes.com has to say on the subject (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.htm)

although there is a certain feel goodness about signing one and less costly than actually doing anything (or spending any money!)

[Glimmerglass]

Or there is the Petition to the US Congress demanding that all TB race tracks become Synthetic Surfaces (http://www.petitiononline.com/cares/petition.html) "signed" by 798 people.

It is our belief that Congress should recognize California’s efforts and improve upon them, making it mandatory that by 2010 all Thoroughbred Tracks nationwide, that fall within the California guidelines have a synthetic track installed as outlined above*. We also believe that Congress should make mandatory that by 2015 all Thoroughbred Tracks nationwide, regardless of racing schedule should have a synthetic track installed as outlined above*.

I guess then quarter horses, of course per the petition, can just go to hell [or did we agree in the other thread that horses cannot go to hell?] and have all the breakdowns they want because well Barbaro wasn't one of them.

I think Martin Collins and Michael Dickinson got together and started this petition :D

[c5rose]

Years ago, I worked along side a fellow horse-owner. I didn't know her well - our personalities didn't click. Trying to start up a conversation, I asked, "So, are you going to watch the Kentucky Derby on Saturday?" She snared back, "No, I love horses. Why would ANYONE want to watch horses being tortured?" I stared at her with a blank expression on my face, waiting for her to say, "Just kidding!" She never did, and we never talked about horses again, or too much else for that matter.

They may as well ban driving cars, too, since there are clearly too many road accidents, injuring or killing innocent people. Until the government can ensure there will be no more accidents, no one should be allowed behind the wheel of a car.

Let's start that petition.

[holmes]

There are many problems with the horseworld - the main two are:

That people are opinion rich, yet fact poor

-and-

Horses are pets; part of the family, etc.

[Freebird!]

They have 84 people that have signed it so far. Doesn't really say what they are trying to prove with this though.

Can we start a different petition?

No shoes on horses ever. Unfairly restricts the natural growth of foot.
No drugs ever, they can harm a horse rather than help.
No halters or lead ropes. Because that unfairly restricts the horse's expression.

________

Interesting how they threw toe clips in there.


What is so sad is I bet that you'd have quite a few signatures. :rolleyes:

[horsepowerco]

I say we start the petition to educate and improve racing and its image!Improve the safety of our sport not end it! Band together to help fix the drug use (both in the horses and some of its people), the bad track surfaces, poor backside conditions, anyone else care to add to this list????

Heck I would just be happy to see slots in my state! :D

[Jane]

Where do thse people get those ideas from. I have to wonder how many know about racing.

Obviously not much, other than what they read on the PETA site. ;) I too agree that they have some nerve using Barbaro's name.

[Glimmerglass]

Well in case anyone is worried that PETA resources are being exclusively devoted to defeat racing, don't worry, they have managed to applaud the efforts of Whole Foods and their lobster methods.

Chicago Tribune 2-7-07 "Whole Foods Market makes an exception to no-lobster rule in Maine" (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-070206lobster-story,0,7889743.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed)

After the lobsters are caught in traps, they'll be placed in crates in individual holding compartments that are designed to reduce stress and handling from the boat to the store.

[Whole Foods] store employees will use a countertop machine called a "CrustaStun," which uses an electrical charge to dispatch the lobsters in a matter of seconds rather than minutes it can take in hot water.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Virginia-based animal rights group, would rather Whole Foods not sell live lobsters, but it said the company should also be commended for ensuring that the animals are being treated humanely.

"Our expectation is that all Maine stores that sell live lobsters will have to implement animal welfare protocols in order compete with Whole Foods, which would be a good thing," Matt Prescott said from PETA's offices in Norfolk, Va.

The best of all was the remark from a Maine lobsterman ...

Using an electronic zapper to kill the lobster sounds like a gimmick, said Martin, the Portland lobsterman.

"A lobster electric chair?" Martin said. "I wonder how that will sound for their public relations, that they're going to give the lobster the electric chair."

Classic! :D

[Anne FS]

The petition talks about Barbaro not having died "in vane." Now where have I read that before?

[Miss J]

Where do thse people get those ideas from. I have to wonder how many know about racing.


I have to ask because I really don't know anything about racing.....from my eyes and my point of view, it seems that racing horses is for money they are started at a very early age(I believe 18 months) and if said horse is not race material, off it's sold.

that is my view on it........if there is more to the story would someone please enlighten me?

I have two TB's. One raced for two years and one never raced nor was he trained to race.

my OTTB, is a creaky broken down old man who has extreme food aggression problems that has been with him since we got him.

m y other TB is complete opposite....

Not meaning to "ruffle" any feathers...just realy wanting to know the "real" facts and truth's about racing.:)
Thanks

[Laurierace]

I have to ask because I really don't know anything about racing.....from my eyes and my point of view, it seems that racing horses is for money they are started at a very early age(I believe 18 months) and if said horse is not race material, off it's sold.

that is my view on it........if there is more to the story would someone please enlighten me?

I have two TB's. One raced for two years and one never raced nor was he trained to race.

my OTTB, is a creaky broken down old man who has extreme food aggression problems that has been with him since we got him.

m y other TB is complete opposite....

Not meaning to "ruffle" any feathers...just realy wanting to know the "real" facts and truth's about racing.:)
Thanks


The "real" truth is horse's are individuals with different personalities and different traits and trainers are human beings with different personalities and different styles of training and therefore there is no "real" truth.
I am really pissed off at myself for even responded to this stupid thread in the first place because it keeps bumping it to the top and more people see it which lends it an air of legitimacy that it doesn't deserve.

[holmes]

I think a huge part of the problem is that a lot of people who get OTTB know very little about what they are doing. I have bought a number of OTTB, and know 100s of other TBs who came off the track, and there were no problems with training, or health.

I read things like 'he never raced' and people act like that is a good thing, when I pick horses I want to see that they have raced - it shows they are strong. When I get my OTTBs I turn them out - some are out for up to a year depending on many things, when they come back their aches and pains are gone, they are relaxed, and have grown a bit (mainly in the belly :-) ). I hear what people feed them, and am speechless - mine get fed hay, and when they are fit get to gallop regularly - they were made to do it, and need it. I have had horses who in their first week of work I am swinging a mallet around them, hitting polo balls, etc.

These are great breeds, but they need proper handling - most people fail them that way and then blame everyone/thing.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

My horse was abused at the track. That does NOT mean that all trainers are evil - just that HIS trainers did not necessarily do right by him. However, he was also abused at some of the barns I had him at, thinking that he was being treated well. One was a supposedly high level dressage barn in our area.

So, if we draw the analogy, then I guess we have to shut down all training barns, eh?

I find that petition simply appalling. And ignorant.

[R D Lite]

I have two TB's. One raced for two years and one never raced nor was he trained to race.

my OTTB, is a creaky broken down old man who has extreme food aggression problems that has been with him since we got him.


My OTTB, who raced until age 6, was an absolute gentleman on the ground. I rarely bothered to tie him while I worked with him. He had an amazing work ethic under saddle. He never, never spooked. He never took a lame step until he developed a systemic illness that had nothing whatsoever to do with his breed or previous career.

Does that mean every OTTB is like him? Of course not. Personally, I love TBs and will look for another OTTB when I get my next horse, but I could find suitable horses of many breeds. I'll also have to keep an eye out for OTTBs who would not be good choices for me. Just as I would with any other breed, or any other horse with training in another discipline.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I don't know why the stereotype persists. Yes, my horse enjoys running. But far from being excitable, he's one of the most laid back and unspooky horses around. That's his personality. And does not mean he lacks a work ethic, either.

It would seem to me that the same "arguements" could be made for any high level training of any discipline. It just annoys me that PETA and their ilk use a situation like this to drive their agenda. It is how they manipulate those are naive to the true situation.

[Pat]

Can we start a petition to have PETA drop off the face of the earth? PULEESE!! Sounds like this little nit wit doesn't have a thought that didn't originate with a PETA FAQ.

Oh, Miss J, darlin; horses are individuals. Plain and simple. I have had many OTTB's pass thru my hands, each one was different. Lucky lived in your pocket, Beamer is a punk. Sammy throws temper tantrums, Snickers while nice enough, had virtually no personality. Oh, and the Red Horse, nervous nellie himself, and my little buddy.

Not every horse that doesn't run well gets tossed immediately. Lucky broke last, ran last and finished last each and every time out of the gate. His owner and trainer tried really hard with him and didn't totally give up till the last minute; he came home to us with racing plates on. He was five years old!

Of course racing is about money. What the heck is wrong with that?? People (and horses) have to eat ya know. Having a profit motive doesn't make owners/trainers/tracks/breeders evil.

I do think racing babies isn't cool. There was a proposal of sorts made by some harness folks to either eliminate 2 year old racing or push the baby racing to the end of the year. I can't say I wasn't behind that.

Oh, yeah, whips. Those are absolutely evil, of course. sigh

[Miss J]

The "real" truth is horse's are individuals with different personalities and different traits and trainers are human beings with different personalities and different styles of training and therefore there is no "real" truth.
I am really pissed off at myself for even responded to this stupid thread in the first place because it keeps bumping it to the top and more people see it which lends it an air of legitimacy that it doesn't deserve.


wow that really clears everything up for a person like me:no: , I was asking honest questions, and I get some hugely vague answer that means nothing to me the lay person.
And so all of these "allegations" that have surface yet again from animals rights peole have absolutley no legitimate claim? It's all good on the track then? Please if you are going to even take the time to quote me and I guess you can call it a response, would you please go a little more indepth about the subject at hand. thank-you.

[Miss J]

My OTTB, who raced until age 6, was an absolute gentleman on the ground. I rarely bothered to tie him while I worked with him. He had an amazing work ethic under saddle. He never, never spooked. He never took a lame step until he developed a systemic illness that had nothing whatsoever to do with his breed or previous career.

Does that mean every OTTB is like him? Of course not. Personally, I love TBs and will look for another OTTB when I get my next horse, but I could find suitable horses of many breeds. I'll also have to keep an eye out for OTTBs who would not be good choices for me. Just as I would with any other breed, or any other horse with training in another discipline.

hmm myou are right I never thought about it that way...it's just hard not to assume when all you have are these two examples. I do honestly believe that my OTTB was mentally and physically damaged by this sport. esp mentally. I love him so much and have retrained him, but some scars don't heal, and he has a few.
thanks for answering:)

[Miss J]

Oh, Miss J, darlin; horses are individuals. Plain and simple. I have had many OTTB's pass thru my hands, each one was different. Lucky lived in your pocket, Beamer is a punk. Sammy throws temper tantrums, Snickers while nice enough, had virtually no personality. Oh, and the Red Horse, nervous nellie himself, and my little buddy.

Not every horse that doesn't run well gets tossed immediately. Lucky broke last, ran last and finished last each and every time out of the gate. His owner and trainer tried really hard with him and didn't totally give up till the last minute; he came home to us with racing plates on. He was five years old!

Of course racing is about money. What the heck is wrong with that?? People (and horses) have to eat ya know. Having a profit motive doesn't make owners/trainers/tracks/breeders evil.

I do think racing babies isn't cool. There was a proposal of sorts made by some harness folks to either eliminate 2 year old racing or push the baby racing to the end of the year. I can't say I wasn't behind that.

Oh, yeah, whips. Those are absolutely evil, of course. sigh

Nothing is wrong with making money, everybody has to eat. But from my point of view(don't flame me I am just a young grass hopper) but these TB's are trained sooo early, why can't people start them as 3-4 year olds? then (from what I am thinking) you won't have so many broken down young TB's that have to be retired or euthanized. Do you think if Barbaro, was lets say a year older and more mature, would have shattered his leg like that? I don't think he would have...but I don't know, this is all my opinion, and speculation of course.

Am I totally off or what, like I have stated before, I am not in the industry, and do not know much about it, I have had a bad experience with an OTTB, that has been affected badly by this sport. So please don't flame me. thanks.

[flshgordon]

Can we start a petition to have PETA drop off the face of the earth? PULEESE!!

I would make up a bunch of fake names and sing that 100 times over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yes: :yes: :yes:

[flshgordon]

I have to ask because I really don't know anything about racing.....from my eyes and my point of view, it seems that racing horses is for money they are started at a very early age(I believe 18 months) and if said horse is not race material, off it's sold.

that is my view on it........if there is more to the story would someone please enlighten me?

I have two TB's. One raced for two years and one never raced nor was he trained to race.

my OTTB, is a creaky broken down old man who has extreme food aggression problems that has been with him since we got him.

m y other TB is complete opposite....

Not meaning to "ruffle" any feathers...just realy wanting to know the "real" facts and truth's about racing.:)
Thanks

It might seem like it's all for the money but I bet if we looked at statistics, there is a really SMALL percentage of owners that make any real money at it. Sure there are some but not that many.

Why is this different than racing dogs for money? What about big time show dogs? Those animals aren't treated "well" by my standards as a group. Most of them aren't pets, they are coiffed & primped & sheltered to an inch of their life for the money but you don't see PETA griping about the crappy lives they have. That's what ticks me off. There are lots of animal related industries related to money but you don't see PETA protesting them at every turn.

My OTTB while "high strung" came with excellent ground manners, the ability to be bathed, clipped, tied, put on a walker, and while hyper, she was very "broke".

I think every TB off track or not is a different personality. I'd buy another OTTB again given the chance.

I can't give you the secrets of inside racing because I'm not "in" that world, I just don't get why PETA can't mind its own business and concentrate on abused, neglected animals instead of a racing string that is well fed, exercised and bathed every day.

[R D Lite]

hmm myou are right I never thought about it that way...it's just hard not to assume when all you have are these two examples. I do honestly believe that my OTTB was mentally and physically damaged by this sport. esp mentally. I love him so much and have retrained him, but some scars don't heal, and he has a few.
thanks for answering:)

I'm glad my post helped you see a different point of view. My horse, as far as I could tell, had a good experience on the track. Yes, perhaps your OTTB did suffer while he was a racehorse. But I don't think racing is necessarliy at fault. For example, I primarily ride dressage. I think dressage is good for most horses, and I think a lot of them can enjoy it. That said, there are dressage trainers I wouldn't let within a mile of my horse. I've seen horses flourish wonderfully under the guidance of good owners and trainers, and I've seen them ruined after being pushed too hard and too fast far too young. No, there may not be the same kind of money tied up in something like dressage, but it's amazing what some riders will do to win a ribbon.

I know this isn't a new point, but I do hate to see racing maligned so frequently.

[regret]

I have been involved with horse racing for over 30 years as a Hot walker, Groom, Exercise Rider, Trainer and Breeder. I have seen all aspects of racing. I worked in the lower levels and the upper levels. Yes, there are bad trainers who do not take care of their horses and over race them but the majority of people who work on the back side love the horses and want to do the best for them. Yes, racing is to try and make money but there is nothing wrong with that. The TBs love to run. It is in their blood. My foals, weanlings and yearlings race around the pasture and compete with each other. Yes, it is sad when a horse gets hurt but in my opinion we hear mostly about the bad not the good that happens.

[Miss J]

It might seem like it's all for the money but I bet if we looked at statistics, there is a really SMALL percentage of owners that make any real money at it. Sure there are some but not that many.

Why is this different than racing dogs for money? What about big time show dogs? Those animals aren't treated "well" by my standards as a group. Most of them aren't pets, they are coiffed & primped & sheltered to an inch of their life for the money but you don't see PETA griping about the crappy lives they have. That's what ticks me off. There are lots of animal related industries related to money but you don't see PETA protesting them at every turn.

My OTTB while "high strung" came with excellent ground manners, the ability to be bathed, clipped, tied, put on a walker, and while hyper, she was very "broke".

I think every TB off track or not is a different personality. I'd buy another OTTB again given the chance.

I can't give you the secrets of inside racing because I'm not "in" that world, I just don't get why PETA can't mind its own business and concentrate on abused, neglected animals instead of a racing string that is well fed, exercised and bathed every day.

While I do not agree with dog racing...or PETA, I am asking about horse racing.

Anybody can answer this one: Why are TB's started so young? and at what exact age, do they get started?

[Laurierace]

While I do not agree with dog racing...or PETA, I am asking about horse racing.

Anybody can answer this one: Why are TB's started so young? and at what exact age, do they get started?

Why do you keep asking for absolutes when there aren't any absolutes in any of life. Do you want someone to say every single TB on the face of the earth is started at 21 months and 4 days? There, I said it for you.
I tend to send mine to get broke in March of their two year old year which means they come to the track sometime around July of their two year old year if all goes well. They have their first race when they are ready for their first race. Again, no absolutes. One raced in September, another wasn't ready until March of her three year old year.
I have two kids, both girls. One hates horses and doesn't ever want to do anything with the family. The other goes to horse shows and pony club almost every weekend of the year. These are full sisters, same sire, same dam. Both started the same way at the same age. Why oh why are they so different?????????

[solargal]

While I do not agree with dog racing...or PETA, I am asking about horse racing.

Anybody can answer this one: Why are TB's started so young? and at what exact age, do they get started?

There is no exact age. They start when they are ready and depending on when the connections want to race them. I don't think that many horses overall make their first races as two year olds. We have had some ready to run and others that waited until they were four.

Starting late isn't going to prevent injuries. If you wait until they are 3 or 4 to start riding them they cannot handle the stress. Their bones need to remodel. I have went so far as to have rode an 8 yr old first time starter. The guy believed if he didn't break them until they were 5 or 6 they would hold sound. The opposite was true, none could hold up. Personally I think waiting to start them in training until they are 4 is usually determintal. We had three four year olds that weren't backed until the end of their 3 yr old year and had all the same training starting out. Two never made it to a race, one raced 3 times. None of these horses were started late because of physical problems, nor had poor conformation, and were raised in large pastures and fed properly.

Hope this explains things a little bit.

[Auventera Two]

I think a huge part of the problem is that a lot of people who get OTTB know very little about what they are doing. I have bought a number of OTTB, and know 100s of other TBs who came off the track, and there were no problems with training, or health.

Oops, too bad you haven't met ours yet then. Forty starts in 5 years. Dead lame by 10 years old. Broken down with severe arthritis, ringbone, sidebone, and shin splints.

[Miss J]

Why do you keep asking for absolutes when there aren't any absolutes in any of life. Do you want someone to say every single TB on the face of the earth is started at 21 months and 4 days? There, I said it for you.
I tend to send mine to get broke in March of their two year old year which means they come to the track sometime around July of their two year old year if all goes well. They have their first race when they are ready for their first race. Again, no absolutes. One raced in September, another wasn't ready until March of her three year old year.
I have two kids, both girls. One hates horses and doesn't ever want to do anything with the family. The other goes to horse shows and pony club almost every weekend of the year. These are full sisters, same sire, same dam. Both started the same way at the same age. Why oh why are they so different?????????

Do I keep asking for absolutes??? I remember for an exact age on when a TB gets backed...but nothing else......shouldn't have said exact, that was not meant, what was meant was, when do TB's get started......that's all....I can obviously see that you are getting defensive, and for know reason.....why? I am the average horsey person who is not into racing, but H/J, and all I wanted was some questions answered, because everybody is in such an uproar about anybody questioning the pracites of TB racing, and if it is so opposite, then can someone tell me different, please.........And I a am sorry I do not get your point about your two kids bieng so different, what is it?

And I did ask why are TB's started so young? as compared to ..let's say a show jumper? or even dressage

[Miss J]

There is no exact age. They start when they are ready and depending on when the connections want to race them. I don't think that many horses overall make their first races as two year olds. We have had some ready to run and others that waited until they were four.

Starting late isn't going to prevent injuries. If you wait until they are 3 or 4 to start riding them they cannot handle the stress. Their bones need to remodel. I have went so far as to have rode an 8 yr old first time starter. The guy believed if he didn't break them until they were 5 or 6 they would hold sound. The opposite was true, none could hold up. Personally I think waiting to start them in training until they are 4 is usually determintal. We had three four year olds that weren't backed until the end of their 3 yr old year and had all the same training starting out. Two never made it to a race, one raced 3 times. None of these horses were started late because of physical problems, nor had poor conformation, and were raised in large pastures and fed properly.

Hope this explains things a little bit.

Ok thank-you! But I am really confused now!!(sorry) how can it be that an older more mature horse, break down easier than the younger one???

this is making my little brain spin!
So the reason why TB's are started at a young age, is because the older ones break down easier, and that the older ones can't handle the stress.

[Miss J]

I think a huge part of the problem is that a lot of people who get OTTB know very little about what they are doing. I have bought a number of OTTB, and know 100s of other TBs who came off the track, and there were no problems with training, or health.

I read things like 'he never raced' and people act like that is a good thing, when I pick horses I want to see that they have raced - it shows they are strong. When I get my OTTBs I turn them out - some are out for up to a year depending on many things, when they come back their aches and pains are gone, they are relaxed, and have grown a bit (mainly in the belly :-) ). I hear what people feed them, and am speechless - mine get fed hay, and when they are fit get to gallop regularly - they were made to do it, and need it. I have had horses who in their first week of work I am swinging a mallet around them, hitting polo balls, etc.

These are great breeds, but they need proper handling - most people fail them that way and then blame everyone/thing.

I'm sorry but you have met personally 100's of TB's off the track and NONE of them had any Health or training defects at all??? that is unlikely. I am not calling you a liar, but that is impossible.

I have a quite well trained OTTB, who like I said before has some mental issues, which I directly blame on his short career (2 years raced) and he HATES polo, and is a complete spaz, could't even hold the mallet the first time with my crazy OTTB.
while my other non-OTTB has very little training and is very green, took to polo his first time!, and is one of my mounts.

oh and could you please explain how to properly handle a TB, off the track or not......I do love the breed and maybe one day I will get another one, or maybe I can improve my relationship with my other two.:) thanks.

[Miss J]

Oops, too bad you haven't met ours yet then. Forty starts in 5 years. Dead lame by 10 years old. Broken down with severe arthritis, ringbone, sidebone, and shin splints.


while I don't know how many starts my old dude had, he sounds alot like yours...a creaky broken down fellow:(

[On the Farm]

Ok thank-you! But I am really confused now!!(sorry) how can it be that an older more mature horse, break down easier than the younger one???


Because the bones of an older horse are not as capable (and may reach the point where they are incapable) of undergoing the remodeling necessary to handle the stresses of racing. There are plenty of studies out there detailing this concept.

[On the Farm]

while I don't know how many starts my old dude had, he sounds alot like yours...a creaky broken down fellow:(

Sounds alot like our venerable old babysitter who was a grand prix jumper in his younger years.

[SteeleRdr]

You didn't mention any health of training defects about your two horses...mental issues happen in LOTS of horses, that's not all related to racing. The Han/TB cross that I used to ride was a bombshell when we got him. He came to the barn and not a single person could sit on the horse because he had a mean and wicked buck from being drilled in the ring so much that he had become ring sour. He turned into a fantastic jumper...and eventually he tolerated me doing a little dressage with him, but not without a fight...that said...

As Laurie said, there is not solid age oh when a racing TB is started. I know a steeplechase horse that wasn't started until he was in his 3 y/o year, he's now a 6 y/o and he starts his third full year of racing this year.

And just a note...they start h/j horses quite early, you may just not realize it...otherwise I'm not sure how or why they would have the 4y/o jumper classes that in my opinion are too high stress for a young horse (mostly WB's who don't mature quite as quickly as TB's). I've seen many WB jumpers broken down and started on injections more frequently than I see horses from the track like that. I believe there is a higher ratio of "stress" and injury in h/j than racing TB's. Just what I've seen in my time in both the racing and h/j world.

[loshad]

My guy had 22 starts in 1 year of racing (as a three year old) and he's been sound (he's 8 now). It doesn't seem to have fried him mentally either, but he's a horse who likes to have a job-- he's sort of like a border collie, but without the finely tuned obssession. ;)

He was tried as a polo pony, but it didn't really take. Growing after he was gelded didn't help. Now he's getting trained to event and is taking to it well--it's a job that's different all the time and will probably suit his personality.

The thing about your two guys, Miss J, is that they are indivduals. My guy did well and seems to have been happy on the track despite a pretty intense schedule. He LIKES that sort of thing. Your guy, well, it appears that he did NOT.

Maybe it will help you to think of racehorses as ice skaters. Look at Michelle Kwan--bright articulate, pretty long skating career despite some injuries. Came out of it fine and is now doing some Goodwill Ambassador stuff for the US. Oksana Baiyul had a shorter career, but was also successful, and came out of it a little, uh, crazy, to say the least.

[wineberrywillie]

My guy had 22 starts in 1 year of racing (as a three year old) and he's been sound (he's 8 now). It doesn't seem to have fried him mentally either, but he's a horse who likes to have a job-- he's sort of like a border collie, but without the finely tuned obssession. ;)

He was tried as a polo pony, but it didn't really take. Growing after he was gelded didn't help. Now he's getting trained to event and is taking to it well--it's a job that's different all the time and will probably suit his personality.

The thing about your two guys, Miss J, is that they are indivduals. My guy did well and seems to have been happy on the track despite a pretty intense schedule. He LIKES that sort of thing. Your guy, well, it appears that he did NOT.

Maybe it will help you to think of racehorses as ice skaters. Look at Michelle Kwan--bright articulate, pretty long skating career despite some injuries. Came out of it fine and is now doing some Goodwill Ambassador stuff for the US. Oksana Baiyul had a shorter career, but was also successful, and came out of it a little, uh, crazy, to say the least.


Good analogy, Loshad. Our OTTB is one of the more sensible ones although the wind does breeze under his tail at times. He is out of the Northern Dancer line but that doesn't mean he was great racer however, they tried (fire marks as evidence). He has bone spurs & arthritis in both knees from racing so we opted to keep him on the ground instead of eventing or show jumping. Yes, like TB's, he loves to fly across the fields but we feel it's not in his best interest & he seems happy with his life. I think Miss J is looking for a solution that will prevent injuries from happening but it's simply not possible.

[NancyM]

TBs have been selectively bred for 400 years as racing stock. That is what they are primrarily FOR. Secondarily, they may also have another career, after they have finished racing, if they were well trained, well cared for, and lucky during their racing career. Not all racehorses ARE all these things. Some owners and trainers like the racing better than the horses as individuals, and the decisions of these people can negatively effect the health and futures of their horses lives after racing. This can also happen in other equine disciplines as well, when the pursuit of the win becomes more important than the horse's welfare. But not all race owners and trainers are this way. Racing is neccessary to cull the breed, this is WHY the TB breed is so outstanding in it's athletic prowess and soundness as a whole, because they are raced and culled and the best ones are identified in this way. When you purchase an OTTB, you are likely buying a cull. Which may be just FINE for what you are looking for in another discipline, but yes, there may be some injuries present. Many slight injuries will heal fully in time, and be fully sound for other disciplines, others will not. Even with the best of care and attention, racing is a high impact, high concussion pasttime for a horse, and accidents happen. Slight injuries may be missed by an inattentive trainer when they first happen, and get worse rather than given time to heal, OR the decision may be made to "grind the horse out", that is... go on with competition, racing with the injury unhealed. Such decisions and happenings do put a horse at higher risk for more serious injury or death.

Young race prospects are started in their training and riding AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. This is to build bone and future soundness. Studies have shown that a horse who has at least trained at the track as a two year old are sounder in the long run than those who have not had this training. Whether a two year old makes it to the races or not is an individual decision. About half of them will race, about half of them who do race are probably being pushed and should probably not race. Some are fully able to race without much risk of problems, because they did get started early in their training and are strong enough to do so because of this. But there is always some risk to horses who race, no matter how old they are or are not, due to the speeds attained, the concussion, the competition involved in racing. I love the figure skating analogy, that is a classic. Consider also, other cream of the crop athletes... Wayne Gretzky. Did he wait until he was physically mature to start to learn how to play hockey? Would that have worked well for his career? To attain status as a top athlete, risks must be taken, young bodies must be pushed to their limits, and accidents happen in the process. Otherwise, mediocrity rules supreme.

[harvestmoon]

Oops, too bad you haven't met ours yet then. Forty starts in 5 years. Dead lame by 10 years old. Broken down with severe arthritis, ringbone, sidebone, and shin splints.

Well, it must mean they are all like that, then.

[merrygoround]

And there we were allowing our 3 mo old to canter, buck and run up and down hills, after his dam, out on the trails.

What were we thinkin? :eek:

:lol: :lol: I guess some need to do more research on equine physiology.

[Sandy M]

Still, if one goes back to the origins of the breed, horses like Eclipse, Matchem, Herod, et al. (18th Century), were raced THREE HEATS in a day - like STBs - and were generally 4, 5 or 6 at the time, not 2 or 3. And the races were often well more than a mile.

But now, horses are raced younger and younger, and more often at sprint distances because (a) if you're going to feed and train them, you want them out there racing and (hopefully) winning; and (b) pari-mutuel wagering - more races on the card because of all the 5 and 6 furlong races.

I wouldn't sign this petition, but I would like to see less racing of two year olds. Frankly, while I love the Triple Crown or the Juvenile Breeder's Cup races, I watch them with my fingers crossed - almost with my eyes covered - because i almost EXPECT to see something a 'la Barbero, Mr. Brooks, Charismatic, et al., and that is SO hard to take.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Frankly, while I love the Triple Crown or the Juvenile Breeder's Cup races, I watch them with my fingers crossed - almost with my eyes covered - because i almost EXPECT to see something a 'la Barbero, Mr. Brooks, Charismatic, et al., and that is SO hard to take.


Mr Brooks was a 5yo when he went down in the BC Sprint.
He raced ONE time as a 2yo, an end of season race at Leopardstown, very late in his 2yo year.
He was raced very sparingly as a 3yo, only FIVE times total.

Go figure.

[MeanderCreek]

[QUOTE=Miss J;2204013]
oh and could you please explain how to properly handle a TB, off the track or not......IQUOTE]

Yeah, how 'bout that? Could someone please package up everything I need to know about handling OTTBs and post it here? Actually, how about everything I need to know about horses in general - handling, riding, training, breeding, raising prospects... you know all of it.

That'd be really nice, after all isn't that what the internet is for? Why spend a lifetime in the barn when you can get everything you need to be a good horseman on the WWW?

I'm done warming up so I better either go ride a horse or go to a smartass annonymus meeting before I get in trouble.

[Sandy M]

Mr Brooks was a 5yo when he went down in the BC Sprint.
He raced ONE time as a 2yo, an end of season race at Leopardstown, very late in his 2yo year.
He was raced very sparingly as a 3yo, only FIVE times total.

Go figure.


I bow to your superior knowledge- I thought he broke down in one of the Triple Crown races - or perhaps I'm thinking of another horse with a similar name?

[Miss J]

[QUOTE=Miss J;2204013]
oh and could you please explain how to properly handle a TB, off the track or not......IQUOTE]

Yeah, how 'bout that? Could someone please package up everything I need to know about handling OTTBs and post it here? Actually, how about everything I need to know about horses in general - handling, riding, training, breeding, raising prospects... you know all of it.

That'd be really nice, after all isn't that what the internet is for? Why spend a lifetime in the barn when you can get everything you need to be a good horseman on the WWW?

I'm done warming up so I better either go ride a horse or go to a smartass annonymus meeting before I get in trouble.

Meooowwwwww Meander! Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning???hahahahahahah! too funny...anyways......who ever said that TB's need to be handled in a different way than other horses, piqued my curiosity! I thought(maybe I shouldn't have) that maybe there is a different way that TB's really do need to be handled or treated. Simple as that...thought maybe I could spare some hardship on my old guy. You so funny!

[Miss J]

Because the bones of an older horse are not as capable (and may reach the point where they are incapable) of undergoing the remodeling necessary to handle the stresses of racing. There are plenty of studies out there detailing this concept.

Thank-you for replying....see Like I said before(but some have obviously not seen or bothered to actually read my posts before spouting off) I am not in the TB racing industry....and this is really amazing to me...I thought that if they are started young and worked young that thier bones would be more succeptable to breaking down. I thought that it would be more beneficial to start them at 3 or 4 year's old. I would love to learn more about this. Thanks again:)

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I bow to your superior knowledge- I thought he broke down in one of the Triple Crown races - or perhaps I'm thinking of another horse with a similar name?

Mr Brooks did indeed run in Triple Crown races, in two different Triple Crowns.
He ran in the Irish 2,000 Guineas (first leg of the Irish TC) and the Derby at Epsom (second leg of the English TC).
The BC sprint was his first race in the US, and first race on dirt.

[Miss J]

After reading the rest of the quotes, I decided to ask and to say, why is everyone(or most) so bloody defensive? I am a complete laymen when it comes to racing, and have asked some honest questions that I know nothing about(obviously or I wouldn't have asked), I wasn't being a hag, and you guys are jumping down my throat! What is the problem? Really? because that isn't normal behavior. If someone asked me a question about polo, and why they do such and such, I would answer in a calm and positive manner, but not some of you, you guys are being nasty and sarcastic.....so thanks, I came out of this little thread sooooooooo much more knowledgeable. sheesh:no:

[NancyM]

Some racing people are being defensive because of criticism from others who have made judgements about racing and accusations of lack of care of racehorses while those people obviously have little actual experience or knowledge of the hands-on aspects of training and caring for racehorses. Your first post indicated that you were slightly leaning that way, though you indicated that you had little actual experience or knowledge about horse racing, you had already formed the beginnings of these opinions. I think that you are young, and trying to learn, trying to understand stuff, and perhaps have been given some misinformation from other people who perhaps have little actual experience or knowledge of horseracing to initiate your original opinions. It is quite common for pony club and 4 H leaders and low level coaches to impart opinions about horse racing and early riding and training of horses to children in their care without sufficient knowledge about the discipline themselves to be able to form and communicate informed and well educated opinions. Thus misinformation is carried on to the next generation. It is true that in racing there are some owners and trainers who do not respect the long term health of their horses, and do not care about them as individuals, and push them to make money. It is also true that similar individuals are present in every equine discipline, yet it is horse racing that gets the most exposure and public wrath. Racehorses thunder down the track at full speed, pushing and shoving, intent on the win, with hundreds of years of instinct bred into them and months or years of training to sharpen their desire pushing them to do so. Is it so surprising that they get hurt or break down on occasion? Small problems can become big ones very quickly under those conditions. To expect no injuries at all would be naive. While injuries happen more often to horses pushed hard with poor care or uncaring owners and trainers, the same injuries can happen to horses with the best of care, because they race, no matter how old they are or are not. This is the nature of horse racing. Those of us involved with horse racing and care about our horses accept these risks, and do what we can to avoid them, and deal with them when they happen. But don't think for a moment that it is easy to deal with it, or that we don't care when it happens.

There is a lot to learn about horseracing and TBs and horses in general, and it will take you some time and experience to begin to understand the sport and the breed. It is not something that you are going to get off a public board, though perhaps encouragement in your education would be appropriate.

[caffeinated]

People also get defensive because so many of these things have been brought up over and over and over, in an attacking way. Racing has been called cruel and abusive for years, and unfortunately anyone asking questions can easily be assumed to be part of "that" group.

Your questions earlier, while well-intended I'm sure, could easily be read with the wrong "tone" in mind, and to those who are tired of defending the sport, well, that leads to the defensiveness you're seeing.

[chism]

I have to ask because I really don't know anything about racing.....from my eyes and my point of view, it seems that racing horses is for money they are started at a very early age(I believe 18 months) and if said horse is not race material, off it's sold.

that is my view on it........if there is more to the story would someone please enlighten me?

I have two TB's. One raced for two years and one never raced nor was he trained to race.

my OTTB, is a creaky broken down old man who has extreme food aggression problems that has been with him since we got him.

m y other TB is complete opposite....

Not meaning to "ruffle" any feathers...just realy wanting to know the "real" facts and truth's about racing.:)
Thanks

Well from my little corner of the world...I don't believe that has anything to do with it. Horses are individuals. I own 4 OTTB's with varying career lengths.

OTTB#1 - Raced 75 times over 6 years. I've had him 5 years, he's done hunter/jumper and eventing. He's had the usual manageable issues that you would expect with a career of that sort, I've had his hocks injected & he had a suspensory injury. He's a wonderful horse with a great mind, was my 13 year old's first horse, she's moved on to a younger, fancier prospect with less mileage, but my younger daughters will be riding him. I trust him completely. He' has a forever home with me. He deserves it. I found him at a rescue in NY, he had been dumped at auction sometime after his last race. :(
OTTB#2 - Did race training but never raced. Too anxious and high strung, ruled off NY tracks at 4. After some let down ,retraining and maturity, he placed at his first recognized events last summer. He's so quiet, people think he's a QH.
OTTB #3 - Raced 22 times, never broke his maiden. Given to CANTER at age 5 by his trainer/owner because they wanted to make sure he ended up in a great home. He's completely sound in mind & body, would climb in your pocket if he could. He'll be doing low level eventing with me.
OTTB #4 - Came off the track in Nov 06. I don't have his track record, but he raced for at least two years. He's sound, with a nice disposition, truly enjoys interacting with people.
4 horses, sound, sane & sensible out of 4. My law of averages is pretty good.

I think the petition is a well-meant, but terribly misguided attempt to make some sense of Barbaro's death. The racing industry has it's flaws, as do other disciplines in the horse world.

[Auventera Two]

while I don't know how many starts my old dude had, he sounds alot like yours...a creaky broken down fellow:(

I'm so sorry to hear that. :cry:

Our old girl passed away just yesterday at 21 years old. My heart is just broken. She was the best mamma and the sweetest horse. It hurt us so much to see such a beautiful horse with the sweetet personality just break down more and more every year. Rest in peace girl, we miss you. :cry: :(

[Kimberlee]

[QUOTE=MeanderCreek;2215161]

who ever said that TB's need to be handled in a different way than other horses, piqued my curiosity! I thought(maybe I shouldn't have) that maybe there is a different way that TB's really do need to be handled or treated. Simple as that...thought maybe I could spare some hardship on my old guy. You so funny!

I think when it was mentioned to have to handle OTTBs a different way it was meant that these horses have been trained in a specific way. People who take them home need to understand where these horses are coming from.
Not a good example, but... if you take a cow horse out in an arena with cows he is going to start looking and watching the cows. Now, if you didn't realize what a cow horse does you might take this the wrong way and either over correct for this behavior or consider him crazy. In the same way people quit often will bring home their first personal OTTB and expect one thing and be surprised when their horse acts completly different than any other horse they have owned.

Both OTTBs that I have had have been wonderful. One workaholic and one fairly bombproof dude. Both were fine mentally and physically. I have known some wonderful TB people, and some not so good ones. Just like every other horse sport I have dealt with.