Anti-racing in the wake of Barbaro's death?

[Glimmerglass]

It is disappointing that racing foes see the death of Barbaro - far away from the track - as an opportunity to peddle their "racing is evil" message. Example -

(NJ) Courier-Post "Barbaro's story offers different lesson" Jan 30, 2007 (http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070130/COLUMNISTS14/701300367/1002/SPORTS)

This is the dark side of this thing we call "The Sport of Kings." It is a harsh and horrible reality, and it should keep us from referring to Barbaro as unlucky. In fact, Barbaro was extraordinarily lucky -- a skilled and tireless medical team at the New Bolton Center worked heroically for Barbaro, he lived 254 days with an absolutely catastrophic injury, he was wonderfully cared for and passed away as peacefully and humanely as possible.

The simple truth is that most injured horses do not get this treatment. Horse Illustrated magazine reported that 90 percent of all horses end up slaughtered -- not euthanized humanely, surrounded by caring people and Internet prayers, but slaughtered and turned into food overseas. Former Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand, unsuccessful at stud, died last year in Japan in a slaughterhouse according to Blood Horse magazine.

"Horses are just pawns in a multi-billion dollar industry, expendable commodities that are abandoned when they are no longer profitable."

PETA's official position is that horse racing should be banned, because the spectacle of rich people racing their animals for sport is barbaric.

The reality is that horse racing isn't going away. So, indeed, hopefully Barbaro's legacy is not one of sadness. Hopefully something positive comes from all this -- that people in horse racing, from those who run this industry to those who cover it and follow it, become more concerned with the safety of the horses.

That means better turf, safer surfaces (some tracks are exploring PolyTrack, a new synthetic surface). That means changing the schedule -- the Triple Crown is three punishing races in five weeks, a grueling schedule under any circumstances.

All sports have risk. Boxing is dangerous, racing cars is dangerous. The difference is that human beings make a choice. The horse runs because the jockey hits it.

The risks of horse racing are obvious; glaringly so. For some, Barbaro brought them home and made them real. And hopefully now is the time to stop shielding the crowd from the awful sights. Reach Kevin Roberts at kroberts@courierpostonline.com

HI claims 90% slaughter rate? That is utterly nonsense. And horses don't run only because a jockey uses a whip - I have seen many races where the horse won wire to wire without a whip ever even used. I guess you just can't convince some people of the danger in their logic either. If racing ended and jumping I assume is evil too (per PETA) then at the end of the day TB horses have no value in life other then costly companions. Perhaps they think they should just run free across the "plains of New Jersey"?

[holmes]

People where going to say a lot about Barbaro when he broke down - you were damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I think Barbaro shows the world that people in racing truly care about and love their horses -

[summerhorse]

Heck not even 90% of TBs are slaughtered. It generally works out to be about 20-25% of each foal crop. But as to all horses its a drop in the bucket, less than 1% by most estimates. About 10% of horse deaths are due to slaughter each year.

TBs love to run. They may not run fast enough for their owners but they LOVE TO RUN. Ask anyone who has been run away with by a fresh TB! =)

[Drvmb1ggl3]

It is disappointing that racing foes see the death of Barbaro - far away from the track - as an opportunity to peddle their "racing is evil" message. Example -

(NJ) Courier-Post "Barbaro's story offers different lesson" Jan 30, 2007 (http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070130/COLUMNISTS14/701300367/1002/SPORTS)



HI claims 90% slaughter rate?

I think I can safely claim that 90% of Mr Kevin Roberts journalistic output is unmitigated garbage. That's being conservative.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

It is disappointing that racing foes see the death of Barbaro - far away from the track - as an opportunity to peddle their "racing is evil" message.

Ok, I wouldn't believe PETA, or those who quote them, no matter what subject they were on about. And I don't mean to start anything, especially not so soon after the sad passing of a wonderful animal. But by "far away from the track" are you suggesting that a racing injury was not the cause of Barbaro's death?

[Kimberlee]

I am sure the only reason Barbaro was running that day was for this reason: The horse runs because the jockey hits it.

Get real. They run because they love it. Most ex-racehorses find great homes at the end of their racing careers or before they even race. To think that 90% of horses are sent to slaughter houses is uneducated and a problem that is being addressed even now in congress with the anti-slaughter bills. That being said you should also quote PETA on their belief that dog shows are horrible, and encourage people to buy an animal.

----------

E-mail I sent to the author of this article. I just get so tired of people just slamming something for no other reason than because they can. We really beat our horses to get them to do what we want? Okay, I know that some do, but not the majority I am sure.

[horsepowerco]

heres what I just emailed this closed minded moron....

You need to get your facts straight about horse racing before you go running off at the pen like you do! If you would like a little education ...or at least get some honest answers ...contact me. I was a rider for 13 yrs and now am an active breeder and owner(and no Im not rich...like your article states ALL racing owners are!). I also help reschool and find homes for many USEFUL retired Thoroughbreds. 90% of all horses do not end up in slaughter horses...certainly not 90% of all racehorses. Get your facts straight!

[PinkPonies]

I have a question regarding this. I ride on the hunter/jumper circuit but am a racing fan - I love watching them run and love the thoroughbreds. And I was rooting 100% for Barbaro and have no doubt he received the best care possible throughout his entire short life.

However, as the owner of an OTTB, I saw the condition my horse came off the track in. He never placed in a race. I got him just weeks after his last race, and he was so body sore and stiff he could hardly turn around in his stall. He had a 3" gash on his head that should have been stitched but never was and a popped splint. And he was terrified of people and any sudden movement. Six years later, he's sound as can be and a sweetheart, but it made me sad how he was treated - is it different with the lower level racing? Now I understand that it happens in ALL divisions - people can be mean. I am just asking - do people who live and breath the racing industry honestly think racing, overall, is more, less or the same as far as treatment of the horse than other equestrian disciplines?

But I do agree - those comments are just ridiculous. Anyone who's ever owned or sat on a Thoroughbred know they LOVE to run!!

[Kimberlee]

"They raised $1.2 million for the Barbaro Fund (even though the owners, Roy and Gretchen Jackson, likely could have afforded to care for the horse without public help)."


He put in this in the article too. Talk about a lack of checking your facts!

[Kimberlee]

Okay now I know for sure how upset that article got me. I registered with the paper so that I could post on the comments part of the article re the facts about the Barbaro Fund. LOL:) Okay, deep breath, and getting back to work now.

[Melelio]

Ooohhh....that ticks me off. I just sent the so-called 'journalist' an email, dumb butt so-and-so....doesn't even take time to research for truth.

[holmes]

I really would not get worked up by this - we know a lot more than this author who obviously has an agenda. The world saw Barbaro win the Derbyby 6 1/2 lengths without being hit, we know the Jacksons paid for all of his care, and he raised a lot more than the $1.2M noted.

PinkPonies - unfortunately there are some people involved in racing (attracted via gambling) that really should not be there. It seems your horse had an unfortunate encounter with one. My experience in racing is that the horses are incredibly well care for, and I think you will find this with the majority of trainers/owners.

[mareseatoats]

It will take many years for me to overcome the tragedy of Barbaro, but with the Preakness, I have watched my last race. It is purely for man's profit that these magnificent, fragile creatures are pushed beyond their limit. George Vecsey ("Racing Can't Afford More Tragedies," The Times, June 6) asks when animal rights' groups are going to speak out against this human (not humane) narcissism. I ask the same question and mourn the loss of Barbaro.


******

Up until last Saturday (Day of Eclipse Awards), The Jackson's had not received a bill for 1 cent.

MY OPINION of racing is that it's barberic ... my love for horses is endless, I worship the ground they rear on ...

If you're going to comment or critisize ANYTHING I posted, please be sure you understand what I said first. Honestly, I don't care what any of you say or think ... this is my opinion, I'm entitled and so are others.

[CrUsHpOnY]

I come from a hunter/jumper barn and have a question for you people involved in the racing world...i love the sport and think it is exilherating to watch (especially live) and i myself would even be interested in getting involved, but i have wondred this....

could the majority of bone injuries and other leg injuries result from young horses being started to soon? is a lack of full development causing these injuries to occur more often? Also, why do they start the horses at this age? Is there a reason that they can't start them all at a slightly older age?

please know that i am not in anyway trying to make a stab at the sport, and am just curious if this has been researched at all. and i know these occur in other sports as well

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Glimmer..... you have the power...... lock it while you can.
This is going to go south real fast.

Use the force, use it wisely.

[On the Farm]

I come from a hunter/jumper barn and have a question for you people involved in the racing world...i love the sport and think it is exilherating to watch (especially live) and i myself would even be interested in getting involved, but i have wondred this....

could the majority of bone injuries and other leg injuries result from young horses being started to soon? is a lack of full development causing these injuries to occur more often? Also, why do they start the horses at this age? Is there a reason that they can't start them all at a slightly older age?

please know that i am not in anyway trying to make a stab at the sport, and am just curious if this has been researched at all. and i know these occur in other sports as well

It's been researched ad nauseum and the general consensus is that racehorses need the stress of early age training to condition their skeletal systems for the rigors of racing.

[CrUsHpOnY]

It's been researched ad nauseum and the general consensus is that racehorses need the stress of early age training to condition their skeletal systems for the rigors of racing.

Thanks for your response and answe :) That makes a little more sense to me now.

[Auventera Two]

It will take many years for me to overcome the tragedy of Barbaro, but with the Preakness, I have watched my last race. It is purely for man's profit that these magnificent, fragile creatures are pushed beyond their limit. George Vecsey ("Racing Can't Afford More Tragedies," The Times, June 6) asks when animal rights' groups are going to speak out against this human (not humane) narcissism. I ask the same question and mourn the loss of Barbaro.


******

Up until last Saturday (Day of Eclipse Awards), The Jackson's had not received a bill for 1 cent.

MY OPINION of racing is that it's barberic ... my love for horses is endless, I worship the ground they rear on ...

If you're going to comment or critisize ANYTHING I posted, please be sure you understand what I said first. Honestly, I don't care what any of you say or think ... this is my opinion, I'm entitled and so are others.

Good post. I have no interest in any kind of anti-racing campaign, but I will say that I don't watch nor support horse racing at all. Our OTTB was broken down with arthritis, ringbone, shin splints, and knee problems by early middle age. She raced for 5 years, had 40 starts. I watched that gorgeous mare deteriorate and turn into an old cripple by age 10. Yeah, racing people will tell you that galloping yearlings is harmless, but it's not. Racing is very hard on the bones, knees particularly. We've had at least three vets tell us that our mare's problems are directly caused by her 5 years on the track. Racing vets are likely to tell you something different, as they're obviously biased toward what they do. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, and it will go over like a terd in the punch bowl (again....), but normal horse people come along and pick up the pieces after the racing world. Normal horse people travel the auction yards and Canter sites looking for an OTTB to rescue. We are the ones who deal with the re-training, and the health issues. The mental issues. The racing people try to downplay it, but rehabbing OTTBs is very serious business. It took our mare several years before she could wear a bit without lolling her tongue out and breaking out in a nervous sweat at the thought of riding.

Could it be that she had 40 starts at the bigger race tracks like Hollywood Park, Del Mar and Santa Anita? I don't know. But she was a mental basket case. Five years of racing and the damage was done. Mental and physical. She was a good broodmare but only had 3 babies before she was too broken down to carry another one. It's a shame.

I personally feel that the racing world does no favors for the horse world in general. But that's my personal opinion. We're all entitled to that. The breakdown of Ruffian and the breakdown of Barbaro is too much for me. It broke my heart a million times to see what that poor colt went through and I hope to heavens I never have to see anything like that again in my lifetime.

[On the Farm]

Thanks for your response and answe :) That makes a little more sense to me now.


Google "Maryland Shin Project". That's a pretty good primer on some of the theory on tb bone development.

[irishannie]

I have owned and loved five OTTBs. The one I have now came from a small TB farm in Ocala. His owners had some financial woes and just never got around to breaking him. He is an awsome hunter.
Many writers and reporters simply do not understand the horse world. The editorial we are discussing reflects that. I think most everyone would agree that whereas racing can be dangerous, so can hunting, barrel racing, and cart pulling. I'll bet if Barbaro could have spoken for himself, he would have said, "I want to run, and furthermore, I want to win." and win he did, right up until his last breath. I feel sorry for the people who will try to turn his death into some lesson to be learned. The only lesson I see is how much people can love their animals and how huge the heart of Barbaro was. More people should try to be like him.

[Kimberlee]

irishannie - that is the heart of the matter. Horses get hurt in every sport they are in or just out in the pasture. Just like humans can get hurt in every aspect they do. To think that ending one specific sport is going to make the world safer for horses overall, is very simplistic. These horses have been breed to run. Though I mourn the loss of one so talented as barbaro, I still watch the races of those that love to run.

[Glimmerglass]

Up until last Saturday (Day of Eclipse Awards), The Jackson's had not received a bill for 1 cent.

MY OPINION of racing is that it's barberic ... my love for horses is endless, I worship the ground they rear on ...

Just for the record the 36th Annual Eclipse Awards were held Monday January 22nd.

Worth pointing out - the Jackson's breed, train, and race horses. While some could use the old adage of "don't hate the player, hate the game" it is somewhat weak to say that. Lael Stables were, based upon earnings, ranked 6th for all of 2006.

Racing is what put Barbaro on the national stage and allowed the audience - which followed and mourn for him - to know of his existence. Without it he would've been merely just another nice looking horse. Plenty of wonderful horses exist on this planet. Some die in freak circumstances unrelated to racing and it makes their death no less tragic.

2005 Horse of the Year "Saint Liam" (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34983) won the Breeders Cup without incident then went to stud successfully. Yet he had to euthanized in Aug 2006 after suffered a fractured hind leg while merely being led back to his paddock!

Second of June, one of the hardest charging, all-heart racers who too often was just shy of a little luck was working out at Churchill Downs in Sep 2006 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35500) and fractured his right hind ankle. He had just weeks before without so much as a nick on his body finished second at Saratoga in a huge race. Yet a simple workout resulted in him being euthanized.

"Dr. (Steve) Allday looked at him yesterday, and he couldn't have looked better," said trainer Bill Cesare, son of the owner. "His injury was similar to Barbaro's. Dr. Allday X-rayed him afterward and said he didn't have a shot.

"This horse was part of our family. My wife and kids are all upset, and my mom is upset. But life goes on. It's just sad he didn't have the opportunity to run in the Gold Cup and Breeders' Cup (Classic) and become a stallion. But these are the cards we've been dealt. There was nothing wrong with the racetrack, and he really wasn't going fast. It's just one of those things that happen. I have six 2-year-olds, and I have to keep plugging."

Second of June was purchased by Cesare because both the trainer and the horse were born on the second of June - an exceptionally late date for a Thoroughbred.

Each passing was very sad (I truly loved seeing SOJ run) however I don't see either death as the result of a barabic enslavement and forced to do something horrible.

[solargal]

I have a question regarding this. I ride on the hunter/jumper circuit but am a racing fan - I love watching them run and love the thoroughbreds. And I was rooting 100% for Barbaro and have no doubt he received the best care possible throughout his entire short life.

However, as the owner of an OTTB, I saw the condition my horse came off the track in. He never placed in a race. I got him just weeks after his last race, and he was so body sore and stiff he could hardly turn around in his stall. He had a 3" gash on his head that should have been stitched but never was and a popped splint. And he was terrified of people and any sudden movement. Six years later, he's sound as can be and a sweetheart, but it made me sad how he was treated - is it different with the lower level racing? Now I understand that it happens in ALL divisions - people can be mean. I am just asking - do people who live and breath the racing industry honestly think racing, overall, is more, less or the same as far as treatment of the horse than other equestrian disciplines?

But I do agree - those comments are just ridiculous. Anyone who's ever owned or sat on a Thoroughbred know they LOVE to run!!

Did you purchase him from the track or elsewhere? Horses conditions can deteriorate quickly in bad care. Unfortunately, there are bad people, but you won't find anymore mistreated than anywhere else. It shouldn't happen anywhere, but that is why when abuse happens we have to stand up. I have racehorses at a "cheap" track and Equus34 can back me up saying they are show ready anytime.;) When we place them in home I regularly hop on the bareback without a second thought.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/solargal/Desert/Bareback.jpg

[PinkPonies]

Did you purchase him from the track or elsewhere? Horses conditions can deteriorate quickly in bad care. Unfortunately, there are bad people, but you won't find anymore mistreated than anywhere else. It shouldn't happen anywhere, but that is why when abuse happens we have to stand up. I have racehorses at a "cheap" track and Equus34 can back me up saying they are show ready anytime.;) When we place them in home I regularly hop on the bareback without a second thought.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/solargal/Desert/Bareback.jpg

My trainers bought him straight off a track in Arizona, so when I met him, he was only a few days off the track. But thank you for answering my question - that is good to know and very impressive! It's a shame that a few bad people can give racing such a bad rap - and racing is much more in the public eye than other equestrian sports so it is more "public" when something does happen.

[rcloisonne]

IGet real. They run because they love it.
Then why not ban the use of whips?

could the majority of bone injuries and other leg injuries result from young horses being started to soon?
That and breeding for spindly legs.

is a lack of full development causing these injuries to occur more often?
That and breeding for spindly legs.

Also, why do they start the horses at this age?
$$$$$

Is there a reason that they can't start them all at a slightly older age?
$$$$$

It's been researched ad nauseum and the general consensus is that racehorses need the stress of early age training to condition their skeletal systems for the rigors of racing.
Uh huh. Years ago they used to race several heats per day of more than 2 miles each. Now three “grueling” races within 5 weeks is asking too much. Ever wonder why?

PinkPonies - unfortunately there are some people involved in racing (attracted via gambling) that really should not be there. It seems your horse had an unfortunate encounter with one. My experience in racing is that the horses are incredibly well care for, and I think you will find this with the majority of trainers/owners.
Uh huh. Ever visit any of the CANTER USA sites? Hundreds, if not thousands, are in danger of becoming dog or human food. Not many of them look “incredibly well cared for” either. They’re dumped with the expectation someone else will pick up the pieces. Doesn’t really matter one way or the other to many of these folks.

2005 Horse of the Year "Saint Liam" (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34983) won the Breeders Cup without incident then went to stud successfully. Yet he had to euthanized in Aug 2006 after suffered a fractured hind leg while merely being led back to his paddock!
We’re back to the spindly legs breeding on again. And I’m sure all those studies just prove this horse, who was well conditioned as a baby, had great bone. Puhlease.

It's a shame that a few bad people can give racing such a bad rap - and racing is much more in the public eye than other equestrian sports so it is more "public" when something does happen.
Unfortunately, there are way more than a few who don’t consider these animals anything other than a commodity to be used, abused and disposed of at will. There are no laws requiring any horse be treated with dignity and respect.

Ban TB racing? Not as long as there’s a buck to be made. :cry:

[holmes]

I think it is tough - like many things in the world the vocal minority spout on emotion and have very few facts and generally no experience. If they spent time at a track and saw the level of care the horses recieved they would be amazed.

I personally think racing is far more natural than dressage - I have yet to see a wild horse do tempe changes, while I have seen many galloping in herds.

[solargal]

I know there is bad, as there is everywhere, but I just wish they would take the time to visit respectable trainers and see the care those horses really get. I wouldn't put any of my horses in 1/2 those "boarding stables." The care is atrocious.:eek:

[Slewdledo]

You H/J folks -

Just remember who trained Barbaro.

Think about that.

[Slewdledo]

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2006/derby_videos/index.html?videonumber=195&videotype=racing

Watch that. Or this: http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2006/derby_videos/index.html?videonumber=70&videotype=racing

Tell me he was not born to do that.

[Frog]

I think racing is different than most horse disciplines because it is a business. The horses are expected to earn money. Other equine sports are for fun and the horses usually don't have to earn their keep. (Ok, maybe at the top level- I'm not sure- in things like eventing, hunter ring etc.- but by and large the population of participants is non-pro)

A horse at the track usually has to pay for his food. That means he has to run when he's sore. This doesn't mean trainers don't care about the horses. By and large, they all do or they wouldn't have chosen the profession! But it IS tough for them to make choices sometimes. Every sore horse can't sit in the stall eating money- the trainer would lose the stall and the horse would get sold if he didn't make enough. They get time off when possible (a really unsound or sore horse probably won't hit the board), but not for every little thing. They have enough to eat, and usually have proper medical care. But they are NOT financially worth expensive surgeries or extensive time off. Some trainers might push limits, but it's because this is a business. Obviously there are built-in safeguards in the racing system, such as drug rules (which arguably may need amending), the track vet etc., but the bottom line is time is money and a horse has to pick up a check. That doesn't mean he is abused, it just means he is a professional athlete and a claiming-level trainer's gotta feed his/her family too.

[Pronzini]

I think racing is different than most horse disciplines because it is a business. The horses are expected to earn money. Other equine sports are for fun and the horses usually don't have to earn their keep. (Ok, maybe at the top level- I'm not sure- in things like eventing, hunter ring etc.- but by and large the population of participants is non-pro)

A horse at the track usually has to pay for his food. That means he has to run when he's sore. This doesn't mean trainers don't care about the horses. By and large, they all do or they wouldn't have chosen the profession! But it IS tough for them to make choices sometimes. Every sore horse can't sit in the stall eating money- the trainer would lose the stall and the horse would get sold if he didn't make enough. They get time off when possible (a really unsound or sore horse probably won't hit the board), but not for every little thing. They have enough to eat, and usually have proper medical care. But they are NOT financially worth expensive surgeries or extensive time off. Some trainers might push limits, but it's because this is a business. Obviously there are built-in safeguards in the racing system, such as drug rules (which arguably may need amending), the track vet etc., but the bottom line is time is money and a horse has to pick up a check. That doesn't mean he is abused, it just means he is a professional athlete and a claiming-level trainer's gotta feed his/her family too.

I appreciate the sentiment but the A circuit and other show circuits are full of professional equine athletes, they are ridden by ambitious amateurs and pros some of whom who are paying thousands of dollars a month to compete and some of those horses are sore. I remember being at an FEI level dressage show with some horsy friends and we were appalled at how lame one of the horses was going around the ring. No one rang the bell, no one disqualified this ride.

Most show horses aren't tested like racehorses either.

[dray]

PETA...what a bunch of hooey...I won't even eat PITA bread any more...

Did anyone see what those PETA exprerts did with dogs and cats in RTP??? Now that was humanity at is finest...Hurumph.....

[Glimmerglass]

I really don't see a great deal of value in debating the pros and cons of racing. The bigger picture becomes if you cut away TB racing in all forms from flat to harness to steeplchasing and then broaden that out to eliminating eventing XC and show jumping .. what becomes the 'politically correct' "job" for an American Thoroughbred?

Working at Starbucks as a barista?

The answer would be that TB's would have honestly almost no role in 21st Century life. Folks, all horses can't be like housecats laying around and doing scant little for their dinner.

I love going to Kentucky and seeing horse farm after horse farm with horses merely eating grasses in their pastures just as much as anyone. However, relegating them to being the equivalent of a painting in a museum vis a "we just look at 'em, we can't ride 'em" philosophy is idiotic.

For those people who slam racing and especially those who watch it as being emotionless creatures who are there for money alone I disagree. I have been there when a horse has collapsed at Saratoga. The crowd - and we are talking 20k people - are dead silent, upset, and tense. I was fortunate to see a horse get back up (heat exhaustion) to an uproar of applause that Secretariat likely didn't even get in his final parade in front of the grandstand at Aqueduct!

Racing like life does has its dark sides and crooked elements just as there are some bad cops, et al, there are something’s that you just can't fully stomp out. However I refuse to believe that trainers and owners are some sort of merchants of death because they work in this business of racing horses.

[Slewdledo]

I think racing is different than most horse disciplines because it is a business. The horses are expected to earn money. Other equine sports are for fun and the horses usually don't have to earn their keep. (Ok, maybe at the top level- I'm not sure- in things like eventing, hunter ring etc.- but by and large the population of participants is non-pro)

A horse at the track usually has to pay for his food. That means he has to run when he's sore. This doesn't mean trainers don't care about the horses. By and large, they all do or they wouldn't have chosen the profession! But it IS tough for them to make choices sometimes. Every sore horse can't sit in the stall eating money- the trainer would lose the stall and the horse would get sold if he didn't make enough. They get time off when possible (a really unsound or sore horse probably won't hit the board), but not for every little thing. They have enough to eat, and usually have proper medical care. But they are NOT financially worth expensive surgeries or extensive time off. Some trainers might push limits, but it's because this is a business. Obviously there are built-in safeguards in the racing system, such as drug rules (which arguably may need amending), the track vet etc., but the bottom line is time is money and a horse has to pick up a check. That doesn't mean he is abused, it just means he is a professional athlete and a claiming-level trainer's gotta feed his/her family too.

Actually, most folks are in racing for the fun of it. It's nigh impossible to make $$. Trainers don't make their money from purses. They get in in day rates.

[Lady Counselor]

I've been on the backside and I've been in a lot of barns that did other disciplines. They slide under the radar and they aren't in the glare of the spotlight like racing is. And after 25+ years of it now, I can say that I've seen good and bad EVERYWHERE. And I, for one, am tired of getting singled out and castigated because the horse sport I enjoy isn't 'politically correct'.

Some of the things I've witnessed off the racetrack were far worse than what I saw on the backside.

Some examples:
An Arabian show barn that I worked in back in the early 90's that was doing saddleseat: Horses were put into 'bitting rigs', basically a harness with sidereins. The head was tied short and very upright by the reins, and then they were left loose in their stalls for up to 5 hours like that. THEN the 'trainer' (I use that term loosely, because he was not the talent he thought he was) would take them out and proceed to work them into a lather, wiring them up so bad (to get more 'action' ) that their eyes were white rimmed and they had white lather on their bodies. They were so constantly wired and worried around people it wasn't funny. This same trainer was constantly heavy handed and downright abusive with these horses. If he was in a bad mood, the animals suffered. Nothing that you could go to ASPCA with, just overwork and lots of screaming and leaving them bitted after working too.

A local 4-H barn that butes and freezes ponies so they are sound enough that the lesson kids could ride them in shows. WTF? These were horses and ponies ridden to death all week, until they were not sound, and now they had to medicate so the kids and their parents could pay to use them in a show too? Some of these poor guys have navicular that isn't really under control, but she will use them anyway. (Not to mention the ones that she would give Quietex to so they weren't babboons.)
I thought 4H was supposed to be about good horsemanship.
And, when these creatures get to the point that they are no longer useful, instead of retiring them, they are euthanized so something else can come make money in that stall. Sad thing is, this woman has been doing this for years and everyone says, oh she's so great with her 4-H program.

The show industry has had it's own share of black eyes too. Helen Braach and electrocuting horses ring a bell?

What about some of the things that happen in backyards? A local junior rider who hadn't ridden her horse all winter. She rides him about 3 times in the spring, then one day she loads him up and takes him to her lesson. And proceeds to jump an entire cross country course with him! He was almost falling down by the time she finished, and the next day he was so sore he could barely move, all of his body muscles were on fire! (she tried to blame the instructor for 'making' her do it, that didn't fly)

Ever watched reining horses warming up before an event? Talk about some severe equipment. Then after what seemed to me like a really long schooling session, the trainer would dismount, pull this nasty wire bit out of the horse's mouth and would turn him over to the overweight client who then rode him in the class. There were some gorgeous horses there and every one of them had that inward looking eye, like they've tuned the world out.
I haven't been to a national show, so maybe it's different. I sure hope so anyway.

I could go on, there are many more things I'm thinking of (camp horses, rent-a-ride barns, over worked lesson barns, a Morgan barn that was rough and broke all the time, people who are starving their horses out of ignorance or malice) but that would take pages.

These are all true things that I have seen firsthand. And that is one person in one tiny area.

So to the ones who hate racing:
Not everyone has to like racing.
Not everyone has to participate in it.
There are some people who DO like it and DO participate in it. And there are some very good people in it too. You only hear about the bad ones. But guess what; there are BAD HORSEMEN IN EVERY INDUSTRY AND IN BACKYARDS EVERYWHERE.
Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But that doesn't mean it makes it OK to try to stomp all over someone who holds a conflicting one.

Some of the posters who just had to spout their mean spirited self righteous opinion in the main Barbaro thread really showed their lack of class. Especially the ones who had to hide behind new screen names because they were too chicken to post as their normal selves. That was NOT the thread for that sort of thing, not when so many people were so upset over the outcome of Barbaro's battle. There are plenty of other threads for that sort of debate.

I would advise that you look to your OWN house before throwing stones at someone else. If you can clean it up, then you are more than welcome to hurl stones wherever you want.

[Sannois]

of Barbaro was just another excuse for the wack job animal rights wackos to come out from under rocks! Please why even give that article any attention. I thought the racing board was safe from wacky potential train wrecks like this! :eek:

[tbtrailrider]

I think Barbaro shows the world that people in racing truly care about and love their horses -
Some owners care...ALOT of them don't. That is painfully obvious on the canter threads...some trainers see them as a paycheck only.

[ForTheTBs]

Trainers don't make their money from purses. They get in in day rates.

And this is why there are so many sore horses running. No horse in the stall = no day $$ for the trainer. The bad apples have the control of the horse and a huge incentive to keep them in training. Owners need to show up more and be more involved in what is going on with their horse. They don't necessarily need to be there to tell the trainer how to train, but they need to somehow make themselves aware of exactly what is going on with their horses. I speak from experience, plenty of it. So much so that I finally had to get out, as much as it broke my heart to leave a sport and the horses I love.

There are trainers out there (NOT ALL OF THEM) who will do whatever it takes to keep a horse in training even if it doesn't have a shot at winning. They'll milk the day money from that horse for all its worth and unfortunately, many times, the owner is absolutely clueless. And when a horse breaks down, the owner thinks the horse had been Just Fine and took a bad step, etc., when in reality he's getting iced & buted to the gills to keep that day money rolling in.

I've got to say I've also worked for trainers who do give the horses time off for every little thing, and don't run or train sore horses. They are an absolute joy to be around and to work for, not having to worry if the horse you are taking to the paddock is coming back with you or on the van. Unfortunately, they are getting to be a rarer and rarer breed. That's in my view, of course. I hope I'm wrong, because as stated on Larry King last night, horse racing is Living Art. These horses doing what they were born to do are indeed a site to behold.

[Sannois]

Some owners care...ALOT of them don't. That is painfully obvious on the canter threads...some trainers see them as a paycheck only.

for every aspect of the horse world.
Why is it everyone is so much better with their own and so quick to condemn other aspects of the horse world. I am amazed. no pointing at you tbtrail just this thread as a whole.
:no:

[GreenMachine]

Why is it everyone is so much better with their own and so quick to condemn other aspects of the horse world. I am amazed. no pointing at you tbtrail just this thread as a whole.
:no:

Because it's easier to point fingers at the other guy than to examine your own discipline, or even yourself.

I think it's pretty obvious that the hardcore animal rights and anti-racing folks are far more interested in crowing and proving to the world that they are right than offering solutions to problems. Racing isn't going to go away (and if it does, as Glimmerglass points out, what exactly will we do with all of these non-working horses? Who will pay for them to graze in fields all day long?), so why not offer suggestions for making it more humane? I've seen a lot of racing columnists and enthusiasts offer such suggestions in the days since Barbaro's death. I have yet to see someone who purportedly cares only for the "rights" of animals do the same.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Glimmer, what were you thinking? Was it temporary insanity? You must have known where this was headed.

Can you ask a mod to stick a stake through it's heart.

[ForTheTBs]

On another thread it was mentioned that Barbaro's grand-dam shattered her hip when she bumped the gate coming out. I said it before and I will say it again - horses with solid bone structure don't just fall apart from taking a bad step or bumping a hip. They just DON'T.

When they clip their hip (protruding bone) on a STEEL gate bolting from a small enclosed area at a high rate of speed, you bet they do. Hip injuries coming out of the gate are not unheard of, not at all.

[NancyM]

At the risk of becoming involved in a train wreck...

Those of us involved with racing understand that it is hard on horses, and there are risks involved with high speed, high concussion, competitive horses running in a pack. Owners should go into the sport realizing that there is risk involved due to these factors. It is a sport where, even if the rider and trainer and the horse do everything RIGHT, accidents and catastrophe can still happen. Who owns the quote, "It's not a game for little boys in short pants" ? This is true. If an owner can not accept these risks, best to stay out of the sport.

TBs are the greatest equine athlete, versatile and sound. Bone is light and dense, stronger than other breeds. The size of the bone is not a determining factor to it's strength. They ARE that way because racing is the culling system, doing the selecting of who is strong, and who is not strong. Who has the talent, and who does not. Who is sound, and who is not sound. Those most fit to carry on the breed are selected. Weaknesses are shown up. Some injuries, like Barbaro's, are not determined by a deficency in any of these areas, and are simply bad luck. (See again the quote in the above paragraph). An active and severe culling system is what makes the breed what it is. Without racing, the TB would cease to be the athlete he is now and would lose his soundness and strength edge that he has over other breeds. No other breed supplies this sort of trials to test it's members for fitness prior to entering the breeding shed, which is why so many other breeds constantly use an influx of TB blood to keep them strong and sound and athletic and must continue to do so in order to be in any way comparable to the athleticism of the TB. Inspections or "kurring", leading the horse around on a leash, popping him over a few jumps, branding etc, just doesn't have the same effect as racing, it can't, it's only a judge's opinion. Culling is always hard on the members culled. Fortunately, since the TB is such a brilliant type of horse and so versatile, and has the ability to heal even from harsh treatment and hard competition, members of the breed culled by racing and subjected to treatment involving short term economic gains, are still often useful for many other disciplines and lifestyles. Working against the marketing tactics of other breeds sometimes makes it more difficult for them to find a good home after racing, and this is a pity. And riding and coaching practices these days can also take part of the blame, riders not being able to deal with a ferrarri when they are only skilled enough to drive a toyota tercel or a diesel truck. As with all horses who can not find an owner who can give them value as something, for something (pet, pleasure riding, companion, breeding, competition other than flat racing), the future is grim for some TBs when racing is over. (See again prior quote). Racing is what they were bred for, the other careers are secondary and a horse is lucky to attain the secondary career.

A certain percentage of owners and trainers do see short term goals only with racehorses. This is because they are not true horsemen IMO, they like the racing better than the horses. Horses suffer damage because of this. Sometimes the short term goals also do work out well for a horse, boosting his or her winnings to the point where there is a potential value in the breeding shed after the racing career is over, when failing to take advantage of earnings potential when the time is ripe will hurt this value. Non racing folk sometimes do not understand this way of thinking. Other trainers and owners always consider the horse's long term best interests, and these decisions CAN actually be the best economic decisions too in some cases, but not in all cases. Anyone "getting into racing to make some money" needs to get out of racing, because that is the first step in making money. Racing sucks money out of owners faster than most other pursuits. Those into racing for the long term do so because they love to watch their horse run, compete, do what he has been bred for four hundred years to do, and can afford this luxury. Most people in racing are lucky to cover their costs, especially if they are not doing the work of training and caring for the horses themselves.

[holmes]

How many people do you know that had a broken ankle as a result from a twist - it happens regularly. His situation was compounded soley by the fact it took him a couple hundred yards to pull up.

[Spoilsport]

How many people do you know that had a broken ankle as a result from a twist - it happens regularly. His situation was compounded soley by the fact it took him a couple hundred yards to pull up.

And by the fact that he was horse, and breaks that are very treatable in humans can be catastrophic for a horse.

Yikes, with my four broken bones, I would have been euthanized a long time ago!

[Auventera Two]

TBs are the greatest equine athlete, versatile and sound. Bone is light and dense, stronger than other breeds. The size of the bone is not a determining factor to it's strength. They ARE that way because racing is the culling system, doing the selecting of who is strong, and who is not strong. Who has the talent, and who does not. Who is sound, and who is not sound. Those most fit to carry on the breed are selected. Weaknesses are shown up. Some injuries, like Barbaro's, are not determined by a deficency in any of these areas, and are simply bad luck.

Please explain further. How was Barbaro's accident just "bad luck."

For further discussion - how many other horses have bumped a hip coming out of the gate and NOT shattered it? How many horses have taken a bad step or twisted an ankle and the bone did not shatter? If the culling process that you described is in effect, then clearly two horses from the same line with shattering bones under stress would mean culling. Seems pretty clear to me.

[Pronzini]

Heck not even 90% of TBs are slaughtered. It generally works out to be about 20-25% of each foal crop.



I'm no math genius but that can't be right. Your math implies that a TB has a one in 4 chance of being slaughtered. In reality, the TBs that go to slaughter are not just from one crop but from as as many as 20 crops. If we use round numbers and say that there were 375000 foals registered in the 90s, that 10000 horses slaughtered each year comes generally from that pool of horses born in successive years and are still alive. That's very different from 20% because the horses are being drawn from more than one crop.

[Kimberlee]

I have seen many horses in H/J barns that were kept "sound" so that the trainers could make money off of them. To think that racing is the main horse sport where horses have to earn their keep is not looking openly at other venues. If the ammy isn't winning on her new hunter, he gets dumped so she can buy another. Just because she is an ammy does not mean she gives a rip where the horse ends up. I have seen several horses on the Canter websites out in a trainer's pasture looking quite happy. So, just as with everything else, it is the generalizations about something that lead to all this strife.

I think I am up to $0.08 on this thread:)

[hey101]

Please explain further. How was Barbaro's accident just "bad luck."

For further discussion - how many other horses have bumped a hip coming out of the gate and NOT shattered it? How many horses have taken a bad step or twisted an ankle and the bone did not shatter? If the culling process that you described is in effect, then clearly two horses from the same line with shattering bones under stress would mean culling. Seems pretty clear to me.

I think angle of impact, force, and momentum have a lot to do in each INDIVIDUAL incident.

For example, I have fallen off a horse the EXACT same way four times- cantering around a turn, the horse slid out from under me, with both myself and the horse falling to the ground on the left side (and it was on four different horses, spaced over 2.5 years, with ground both wet and dry, barefoot, shod, shod-and-studded horse, so please don't get hung up on those details).

Teh first time I was knocked out for about 10 seconds, with a resulting concussion and separated shoulder (horse was fine).

Second time I was knocked out briefly, minor concussion, no other injuries (horse was fine)

Third time I popped right back up and even managed to grab the horse before it took off (horse was fine).

Fourth time I broke my left collarbone right in half (horse was fine).

So I think it's hard to say that an individual misstep/ incident is representative for the entire lineage. Horses are big and powerful, and if a bone is severely transversely stressed at the exact right angle with a lot of force and momentum behind it, sometimes the bone will break. Othertimes I'd be willing to bet that even teh slightest angle difference would have meant the bone would hold under stress.

[holmes]

How many horses have taken a bad step or twisted an ankle and the bone did not shatter?

I think you will find a lot of horses who run sore know how to take care of themselves - when everything came so easily to a horse and everything was so natural, he gave every step his all - that is probably the only unfortunate thing about Barbaro's great success.

It seems you want to go against the grain on everything with Barbaro - but the reality is, if he was destined to breakdown due to breeding as you suggest it is almost certain he would not have been able to achieve the greatness he did!

[Barnfairy]

It is disappointing that racing foes see the death of Barbaro - far away from the track - as an opportunity to peddle their "racing is evil" message.

The backlash against racing is inevitable. It is a direct consequence of being a televised sport -- even one that has a following as small as 1 or 2% of tv sports viewers. Barbaro's entire ordeal was closely monitored by the media, keeping it fresh in the minds of not only his fans but those who oppose the sport as well.

If Big Lick horses had the same level of national media exposure I don't see how there couldn't be a nationwide outrage against the practice.

There simply is no reasoning with the fanatics who come here with closed minds to bash racing, so I won't even try.

[Auventera Two]

There has been a backlash against racing for as long as I can remember. It's definitely not something new. And as long as regular horse people keep having to pick up the pieces behind the racing people, the backlash will continue.

[PinkPonies]

I have seen many horses in H/J barns that were kept "sound" so that the trainers could make money off of them. To think that racing is the main horse sport where horses have to earn their keep is not looking openly at other venues. If the ammy isn't winning on her new hunter, he gets dumped so she can buy another. Just because she is an ammy does not mean she gives a rip where the horse ends up. I have seen several horses on the Canter websites out in a trainer's pasture looking quite happy. So, just as with everything else, it is the generalizations about something that lead to all this strife.

I think I am up to $0.08 on this thread:)

I could not agree with you more. I think racing takes a lot of the rap just because it is more in the "public eye" than other equestrian sports.

[Graustark]

There has been a backlash against racing for as long as I can remember. It's definitely not something new. And as long as regular horse people keep having to pick up the pieces behind the racing people, the backlash will continue.

Get a grip, Two Simple.

[Auventera Two]

Oh, thanks for that tip Graustark. :lol: BTW, our old OTTB mare I spoke of earlier is a Graustark daughter. Too funny.

Anyway - there are pro and con racing opinions. Way it always way - way it'll always be. ;)

[Sannois]

little annoyed here. WHAT in the heck is acceptable to all you folks who find racing and so many other aspects of the horse industry not acceptable?? Standing around in a field is about it? OH I tell you I have known several horses that have had to be destroyed due to freak accidents in the pasture, one of them being one of the best horses I have ever owned. I had a trainer who had an awesome eventer years ago, who shattered his cannon bone as he got away from his groom and trotted around the corner of the barn cantered back and was suddenly on 3 legs.
Nothing is fool proof, nothing is 100 percent with any horse sport. Dressage, nope, WP no, Eventing.. nope, Hunters, nope, Racing, nope! Saddle breds or walkers, nope, Jumpers nope! Just might as well shoot them all cause it seems that no matter what everything is unacceptable to you folks. I will tell you what, you dont like racing, dont watch it, dont support it, but for god sakes quit trying to run everyone elses lives and tell everyone what to do, I am so bloody sick of it on this board I could just puke! OK Rant over.:no:

[summerhorse]

I'm no math genius but that can't be right. Your math implies that a TB has a one in 4 chance of being slaughtered. In reality, the TBs that go to slaughter are not just from one crop but from as as many as 20 crops. If we use round numbers and say that there were 375000 foals registered in the 90s, that 10000 horses slaughtered each year comes generally from that pool of horses born in successive years and are still alive. That's very different from 20% because the horses are being drawn from more than one crop.


About 7-10% of the horses slaughtered each year (was about 60,000 but last year hit over 100,000) are TBs. So for the past few years when 60,000 or so horses were getting slaughtered between 4,200 and 6,000 of them were TBs. At that time the foal crop was around 25,000 so about 16.8-24% of that foal crop were replacing horses sent to slaughter that year. One day THEY would be the ones sent to slaughter while new foals were being born to replace them.

Last year around 100,000 horses were slaughtered (a bit more I think) but still about 7-10% of them are TBs but the foal crop was about 36,000? last year? (I forget the exact number). So between 7,000-10,000 TBs were slaughtered which means that between 19% and almost 28% of the new foals born that year were replacing horses slaughtered in the overall TB population. It doesn't seem to make a difference if the crop goes up or down, the bad trainers seem to run through as many horses each year. Of course there is also the argument that way too many of these horses should never even been bred at all as their pedigrees pretty much destined them to be losers.

Obviously these are not exact down to the number but they are standards thrown out by both the TB people in charge and the slaughter plants and are considered pretty close although of course always fluid.

That is an awful lot of horses to be throwing away each year. (not that many of these wouldn't have had to be euthanized anyway because of injuries but again if they weren't run into the GROUND they might not have gotten to the point where they are only good for pasture pals)

Standardbreds numbers are similar but lower because they have fewer horses, race longer and have a second career with the amish and others as buggy horses. Although eventually most of THOSE go to slaughter too so it is more a prolonging of the process than an avoidance.

But nobody can compare with the great american stock horse breeders (all stock breeds) who usually contribute more than half of all the horses slaughtered (impossible to separate Qh from solid paint or app).

[jumper11]

Just wondering if any of you caught that interview with Larry King regarding Barbaro and the evils of the horse racing industry? I thought it was interesting that the people they chose to interview were Bo Derek, Jack Hanna and some PETA freak. Not sure where the logic was in that?? How about getting some people who are actually educated in the industry??

edit, my bad I just saw the entire thread regarding this topic....

[harvestmoon]

Oh, thanks for that tip Graustark. :lol: BTW, our old OTTB mare I spoke of earlier is a Graustark daughter. Too funny.

Anyway - there are pro and con racing opinions. Way it always way - way it'll always be. ;)

Yah, but I think we've got your point already.

[pawsplus]

About 7-10% of the horses slaughtered each year (was about 60,000 but last year hit over 100,000) are TBs. So for the past few years when 60,000 or so horses were getting slaughtered between 4,200 and 6,000 of them were TBs. At that time the foal crop was around 25,000 so about 16.8-24% of that foal crop were replacing horses sent to slaughter that year. One day THEY would be the ones sent to slaughter while new foals were being born to replace them.

Last year around 100,000 horses were slaughtered (a bit more I think) but still about 7-10% of them are TBs but the foal crop was about 36,000? last year? (I forget the exact number). So between 7,000-10,000 TBs were slaughtered which means that between 19% and almost 28% of the new foals born that year were replacing horses slaughtered in the overall TB population. It doesn't seem to make a difference if the crop goes up or down, the bad trainers seem to run through as many horses each year. Of course there is also the argument that way too many of these horses should never even been bred at all as their pedigrees pretty much destined them to be losers.
Wow. Everyone really needs to read this carefully and think about it. There is NO FREAKIN' WAY this can be viewed as acceptable. It just makes me sick.

[Glimmerglass]

lStanding around in a field is about it? OH I tell you I have known several horses that have had to be destroyed due to freak accidents in the pasture ...

Adding to Saint Liam's freak death in 2006, as I cited on page one, you can of course look at the freak death of Gold Token

May 1, 2006 "NY Stallion Gold Token Dies in Freak Accident" (http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=33324)

...Gold Token came through the fence to get at [A.P. Jet]. They started fighting and took off galloping beside the paddocks. Gold Token hit a tree and dropped dead. A. P Jet is at a New York clinic and is currently in serious condition."

Again, folks can b*tch all they want about risks of a horse galloping with a 118-lb weight on their back over a carefully maintained course - but how do you explain why Gold Token, a track record setter with 11 Beyer Ratings Over 100, is dead? It wasn't from evil people, being "batten by a whip", forced to go 1 1/4 mi, or run with just 2-weeks between a race.

[Sannois]

Adding to Saint Liam's freak death in 2006, as I cited on page one, you can of course look at the freak death of Gold Token

May 1, 2006 "NY Stallion Gold Token Dies in Freak Accident" (http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=33324)



Again, folks can b*tch all they want about risks of a horse galloping with a 118-lb weight on their back over a carefully maintained course - but how do you explain why Gold Token, a track record setter with 11 Beyer Ratings Over 100, is dead? It wasn't from evil people, being "batten by a whip", forced to go 1 1/4 mi, or run with just 2-weeks between a race.
And many more freak accidents in all disciplines.
~ Sigh~ ITs like beating ones head against a brick wall. No matter what we say A they say B
Agh.. Someone ban me please!
:lol: :mad: :no:

[caffeinated]

Wow. Everyone really needs to read this carefully and think about it. There is NO FREAKIN' WAY this can be viewed as acceptable. It just makes me sick.

It's true, it's not, and that's why there are so many groups working really hard to change it (ReRun, Exceller, TRF, CANTER, etc).

The only thing I want to add is about the statistics- number of TBs going down that road is not always directly related to race trainers and the racing industry. Many of them are ending up there after years of being "retired" from racing and disappearing into the woodwork. Some end up there after well-meaning race owners tried to place them into a better situation. It's not always a straight from the track to the plate sort of situation. So part of that equation is the horse industry and irresponsible ownership as a whole, not just the evil racing part of it.

[Jinx]

Why does every friggin thread in this place have to turn into an Anti slaughter thread?

hey all you anti horse slaughter people out there...guess what none of you have convinced me to send money your way...at first yes i was heartbroken over the horses posted and the pleas for their lives...but now...youve got me so jaded that honestly I dont even know if i care. Was that your goal? To make someone who loves horses, who donates to animal rescues (and volunteers at them) not care? Guess what I am so close to saying WHO CARES and it makes me SICK. Im an intellegent human being, and you know what, I DONT BELEIVE HALF OF YOUR DATA! seriously back it up already, back it up with hard varifiable numbers. You want to end slaughter? whats your solution? ban it? nope they will go to other countries. SO you get it banned, what happens to all the unwanted horses? are you going to pass legislation to restrict breeding? not in this country! Education? humm seems like people breed horses (mainly) to make money, so long as they can turn a profit they will breed.

Why do you blame the TB industry, last sale I looked at had AQHA horses, grade horses etc going through. Why arn't you bashing them?

sheesh I come to this board to learn about horses, the industry etc. I think its GREAT to promote a cause, but I HATE it when its SHOVED down my throat (and dont tell me if i dont like it dont read it since the title of this thread is "anti racing in the wake of barbaro's death" -- yeah dosent make me think its going to be a slaughter thread!)

and i KNOW what yall are going to say about me, go ahead, you really dont know me, you dont know my views, but seriously have you ever thought that the constant "discussion"/rhetoric turns people off to your cause? because it sure as heck turns me off

[skatepixie]

All I have to say is...

I don't think Barbaro hated racing or would want it to end because of him...

[MoonBallad]

I think it is tough - like many things in the world the vocal minority spout on emotion and have very few facts and generally no experience. If they spent time at a track and saw the level of care the horses recieved they would be amazed.

I personally think racing is far more natural than dressage - I have yet to see a wild horse do tempe changes, while I have seen many galloping in herds.

I don't think anyone is debating the level of care the horses receive I think the issue is with the inherent danger of the sport. Something people WITH racing experience are all too familiar with. And that my dear is a fact.

But like many others I also agree that there is risk in most horse sports but they are under the same public microscope as horse racing.

Oh and Too Simple; you keep repeating that the "regular" horse people have to keep "cleaning up" after the racing industry by buying OTTBs. Can you please explain to me WHY these "regular" horse people would keep buying these horses if they're in such terrible condition? I think alot of those "regular" horse people are very grateful to have the OTTBs they've been able to purchase at such a reasonable price when they're racing days have come to an end. Maybe you should go and read some of the MANY OTTB threads right here on this BB and listen to the praises these OTTB owners pile onto their horses AND the race trainers they got them from.

[scottishgirl]

All I have to say is...

I don't think Barbaro hated racing or would want it to end because of him...

I love horses, think they are fabby intelligent animals..and Im not fussed about racing one way or another

But they are animals. They dont have that kind of thought process Im afraid. One thing I keep on noticing about some Barbaro comments is the anthromorphization - he would or not want x y or z to happen....

Whatever your PoV, arguements in that vein dont let you be taken seriously.

{Not a dig at you skatepixie, your post just reminded me of the more annoying comments Ive seen, and the dam had to burst sometime - Im hoping you kind of meant that in jest!}

[tbtrailrider]

. Six years later, he's sound as can be and a sweetheart, but it made me sad how he was treated - is it different with the lower level racing?


In my experience, a big resounding yes...:yes: :yes: :yes:

[tbtrailrider]

Actually, most folks are in racing for the fun of it. It's nigh impossible to make $$. Trainers don't make their money from purses. They get in in day rates.


I beg to differ, IMO...all those lower level trainers do it because they love the sport... and horses...the day rate pays the bills, but the purses buy the extras, new trailers, tack, etc.

[Sannois]

Why does every friggin thread in this place have to turn into an Anti slaughter thread?

hey all you anti horse slaughter people out there...guess what none of you have convinced me to send money your way...at first yes i was heartbroken over the horses posted and the pleas for their lives...but now...youve got me so jaded that honestly I dont even know if i care. Was that your goal? To make someone who loves horses, who donates to animal rescues (and volunteers at them) not care? Guess what I am so close to saying WHO CARES and it makes me SICK. Im an intellegent human being, and you know what, I DONT BELEIVE HALF OF YOUR DATA! seriously back it up already, back it up with hard varifiable numbers. You want to end slaughter? whats your solution? ban it? nope they will go to other countries. SO you get it banned, what happens to all the unwanted horses? are you going to pass legislation to restrict breeding? not in this country! Education? humm seems like people breed horses (mainly) to make money, so long as they can turn a profit they will breed.

Why do you blame the TB industry, last sale I looked at had AQHA horses, grade horses etc going through. Why arn't you bashing them?

sheesh I come to this board to learn about horses, the industry etc. I think its GREAT to promote a cause, but I HATE it when its SHOVED down my throat (and dont tell me if i dont like it dont read it since the title of this thread is "anti racing in the wake of barbaro's death" -- yeah dosent make me think its going to be a slaughter thread!)

and i KNOW what yall are going to say about me, go ahead, you really dont know me, you dont know my views, but seriously have you ever thought that the constant "discussion"/rhetoric turns people off to your cause? because it sure as heck turns me off

YES YES YES ~~~~ That was the point of my rant!

[R D Lite]

Oh and Too Simple; you keep repeating that the "regular" horse people have to keep "cleaning up" after the racing industry by buying OTTBs. Can you please explain to me WHY these "regular" horse people would keep buying these horses if they're in such terrible condition? I think alot of those "regular" horse people are very grateful to have the OTTBs they've been able to purchase at such a reasonable price when they're racing days have come to an end.

Well, I have to say, I didn't know much about racing before I bought an OTTB, but as I started to learn more about it, I got hooked. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am a fan.

I do not feel that I was "cleaning up" after anyone when I got my horse. I don't say that I "rescued" him. He had a decent owner, a decent trainer, and a reasonable workload. Not all racehorses have that, but plenty do. I would never have been able to afford such a nice horse if all I could shop for were "non-racers." It worked out well for him, and for me. When I get my next horse, I plan to get another OTTB--because I love their heart and athleticism and versatility, and because they have so much more to offer when they're done racing, not because I think they need to be saved from a terrible life. Yes, some end up there, but so do unwanted horses from all walks of life. Frankly, if people are worried about excess horses, I'd look more closely at ignorant owners breeding their horses "because they can" with no regard to conformation, temperament, or much of anything else.

Oh, and before anyone seizes on my signature: yes, my OTTB died young, but it was not from an injury, accident, or because he was "broken down." He had an illness that strikes randomly--all breeds, all ages. Just bad luck.

[Equus34]

I agree even though it put racing in a bit of a bad light it also showed just how much owners actually care for their horses.

The Jacksons did everything possible to save Barbaro knowing that he may not even be able to breed. Yet they did their best to save him. My hats off to the Jacksons for a valent effort.

[horsepowerco]

Here are the emails and responses back and forth with the author of the Article

Quoting Horsepowerco@aol.com:

> You need to get your facts straight about horse racing before you go
> runing
> off at the pen like you do! If you would like a little education ...or
> at
> least get some honest answers ...comtact me. I was a rider for 13 yrs
> and now am
> an active breeder and owner(and no Im not rich...like your article
> states ALL
> racing owners are!). I also help reschool and find homes for many
> USEFUL
> retired Thoroughbreds. 90% of all horses do not end up in slaughter
> horses...certainly not 90% of all racehorses. Get your facts straight!
>

His reply
It's a little hard to contact you if you don't sign your emails ...

If you, whoever you are, have some pertinent facts to pass along, please do --
and I'll revise my comments from there. I have great respect for the work you
do; there's real value in it and you should be very proud. But that's not
quite the point of the column ...

As I wrote, my hope is that we don't simply weep for Barbaro and then go about
our business. My hope is that Barbaro's legacy will be that people get more
concerned about the safety of these magnificent animals. There are, indeed,
staggering abuses in thoroughbred racing, and I'd love to see efforts to make
the sport safer.

I do think there have been strides in that direction that are absolutely due
to peoples' concern about Barbaro -- possibly the anti-slaughter bill could
indeed be traced to the public outpouring of emotion. Wherever Barbado is laid
to rest, if his epitaph reads: "his struggle pioneered great breathroughs in
the safety and care of thoroughbreds'' I think that would be just fine.

Thanks for reading --

kev


again email from me and I quoted from his article in my response

Quoting Horsepowerco@aol.com:

> do these people even understand what a BREAKDOWN IS or can be?
>
> ""Nationally, between 1.6 and 2.2 racehorses per 1,000 suffer catastrophic
>
> breakdowns. The numbers are largely estimates because not every state
> requires
> injury reporting. Jackie Vergerio, the Animals in Entertainment
> specialist for
> PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), said the most recent
>
> estimate is that around 800 horses were destroyed in 2005, but said: "I
> would
> venture to guess the statistics are far more staggering than we know."
> not all breakdowns are life threatening...""""

have you ever heard of a
> manageable
> injury? Do you put down a track star with a pull hamstring? no you
> rehab him
> and go on...racehorses, racing dogs, racing birds are all the same.
> Hard
> sports have hard injuries. Yes some can be life threatening....many can
> be
> career ending. Most are manageable. I know I have a barn full of horses
> other
> people cast aside. One is a gelding who was not cared for after his
> racing days
> were over....why isnt peta beating on that mans door? the horse is now
> a
> retiree living the GREAT life on our farm. His racing injuries include
> tendon
> strains, and 3 screws in a front ankle. He is very sound and
> ridable..HE HAS
> MANAGEABLE INJURIES!!! .I on the other hand am not sound with
> manageable injuries
> thus he is retired and I no longer ride.
> Mr. Roberts I would be happy to help you connect with the proper people
> to
> better write a less bias article about the Thoroughbred business in
> general...not just racing.
>

His reply

Thus the term "catastrophic,'' which differentiates between an injury in which
the horse can be treated and return to racing (or at least not destroyed) from
an injury after which the horse has to be put down. You're in the business;
you know this stuff ...



I think Mr Roberts needs more information so he may write a far more informed article on our industry

[caffeinated]

Well it seems to me the most glaring error in the article is his claim about the numbers that go to slaughter every year. But since he quoted that from another source, he probably won't care.

:)

[On the Farm]

The guy replied to me also, so at least give him credit for doing that much. There's a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity and at least he's showing a willingness to listen to people in the industry.

[abrant]

I've posted on threads just like this a thousand times...

I would GREATLY CAUTION people against attacking the trainers that list horses on CANTER. Those trainers ARE trying to find their horses homes. That's what you want, right?

There is a national rescue near me who consistantly insults and belittles people who surrender horses to them in their press releases (which get published in all sorts of small horsey publications). Perhaps these people deserve it - but is SURE doesn't help them when they want another person to surrender a horse. You begin to seriously wonder if they want to *help horses* or if they want to *make a point* (a la PETA).

I have horses listed on CANTER. I spend 20-25% of my waking hours prepping, showing, and selling our OTTBs. All of the horses of ours listed on CANTER are here at the farm in the pasture or getting fat in the stalls. I am not at all motivated to get rid of them, but I thought CANTER would be a good contact to find them good homes (which it did for Splash of Scarlet and Beautiful Angel).

BTW - random note. Thank goodness I am on the farm working 7:30am-5pm. I can't believe the nuts who call from the CANTER site at 9-10pm. I would be very unhappy if I was working the 4:30am track shift!

And no one is forcing you to take the broken down OTTBs. I have plenty of repeat clients who ask for a decent vet check before taking any of my horses. If you CHOOSE to take on a horse with issues - you should consider it to be a selfless act of goodwill and not a right to bitch.

I gave away a gelding to a lady. He was an utter sweetheart, but had osselots. She told everyone in the area (a) I had give the horse a 30 day tranq and (b) given her a horse who was sure to go lame (I *told* her to have her vet look at him because I wasn't sure about them). Wow. If I knew that was going to happen I would have KEPT him, and if I was a less soft-hearted person without a boss with a healthy bank account, a cheap sale WOULD have been a more attractive option than getting slandered all over the area.


~Adrienne

[Melelio]

I wrote to Kevin Roberts as well, and he did answer me, and I replied, because I was more peeved after reading his reply! He said he knew things, but didn't put that info in his misleading article so I had to 'yell' at him again about it. I'll post the convo if anyone cares.

[Meggan82]

Barbaro may have died far away from the track, but he suffered the injury that lead to his death ON the track....close enough for me.

Dead at the ripe old age of 4.

Barbaro, Ruffian, Go For Wand and all those that went before them.............how many beautiful, noble horses have to die for sport?!?!?

Why don't racing people get it - YOUNG BONES JUST CAN'T TAKE THE STRESS OF RACING! A RIDER SHOULD NOT BE ON THEIR BACKS UNTIL THEY ARE ALMOST 4!!!!!!

I agree that racing is barbaric and should be outlawed.

I don't care that Barbaro's owners spent tens of thousands of dollars to try to save him - too little too late in my opinion.....maybe spend that money to feed and shelter him until he's 4 - THEN put a rider on his back huh?! How 'bout that?!

Why start them so young? It's cruel. Why not wait until they are 4 or 5? If they all had to wait until that age, then they'd all have the same "age" handicap.

But I guess that's not good enough for all the money hungry people who watch and participate in this barbaric sport.

Racing people don't love horses - they love the money - if they did love the horses, they would not race them until their young bones could take it.

Barbaro turned 4 this past January....wouldn't it be nice to see him galloping around his field now.....

[harvestmoon]

:rolleyes:

[Jinx]

Barbaro may have died far away from the track, but he suffered the injury that lead to his death ON the track....close enough for me.

Dead at the ripe old age of 4.

Barbaro, Ruffian, Go For Wand and all those that went before them.............how many beautiful, noble horses have to die for sport?!?!?

Why don't racing people get it - YOUNG BONES JUST CAN'T TAKE THE STRESS OF RACING! A RIDER SHOULD NOT BE ON THEIR BACKS UNTIL THEY ARE ALMOST 4!!!!!!

I agree that racing is barbaric and should be outlawed.

I don't care that Barbaro's owners spent tens of thousands of dollars to try to save him - too little too late in my opinion.....maybe spend that money to feed and shelter him until he's 4 - THEN put a rider on his back huh?! How 'bout that?!

Why start them so young? It's cruel. Why not wait until they are 4 or 5? If they all had to wait until that age, then they'd all have the same "age" handicap.

But I guess that's not good enough for all the money hungry people who watch and participate in this barbaric sport.

Racing people don't love horses - they love the money - if they did love the horses, they would not race them until their young bones could take it.

Barbaro turned 4 this past January....wouldn't it be nice to see him galloping around his field now.....

SOOOO im assuming that you have the same view of reining right? since doing rollbacks, galloping down to spins where all the weight is distributed upon one hind leg and they are at risk of snapping their pelvis....all at the ripe old age of 2 and 3...broke as yearlings doing those moves at 2...

you rally against reining as much right?

[solargal]

Barbaro may have died far away from the track, but he suffered the injury that lead to his death ON the track....close enough for me.

Dead at the ripe old age of 4.

Barbaro, Ruffian, Go For Wand and all those that went before them.............how many beautiful, noble horses have to die for sport?!?!?

Why don't racing people get it - YOUNG BONES JUST CAN'T TAKE THE STRESS OF RACING! A RIDER SHOULD NOT BE ON THEIR BACKS UNTIL THEY ARE ALMOST 4!!!!!!

I agree that racing is barbaric and should be outlawed.

I don't care that Barbaro's owners spent tens of thousands of dollars to try to save him - too little too late in my opinion.....maybe spend that money to feed and shelter him until he's 4 - THEN put a rider on his back huh?! How 'bout that?!

Why start them so young? It's cruel. Why not wait until they are 4 or 5? If they all had to wait until that age, then they'd all have the same "age" handicap.

But I guess that's not good enough for all the money hungry people who watch and participate in this barbaric sport.

Racing people don't love horses - they love the money - if they did love the horses, they would not race them until their young bones could take it.

Barbaro turned 4 this past January....wouldn't it be nice to see him galloping around his field now.....

Why dont YOU get it, that studies have PROVEN that waiting is not helpful in racing. They need the added stress, and yes, we've had horses that were not started at all until they end of their 3 yr old year or later. NONE were able to hold up to even halfway getting to a race. And no, there were not physical issues that prevented them getting backed before then.;)

You say I don't love my horses, but you would be wrong, my dear.:D

[Glimmerglass]

New poll topic published on the Review’s Web site
02/04/2007

The new poll topic for The Daily & Sunday Review Web site is: Barbaro, the beloved thoroughbred race horse, was destroyed last week following a long, losing struggle to recover from leg injuries suffered in the Kentucky Derby. Should professional horse racing be banned as potentially too dangerous and cruel for the animals?

Really - injured in the Kentucky Derby? Amazing what nuggets of new insight the non-racing media comes up with!

As of Saturday evening, with around 540 responses, the breakdown was: Yes, about 16 percent; No, about 84 percent.

Assuming that what the poll is showing with results of 264 votes is just Monday (2-5-07) then it is 76.5% saying NO, don't ban it

Towanda, PA "The Daily Record" Newspaper (http://www.thedailyreview.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17808908&BRD=2276&PAG=461&dept_id=465049&rfi=6)

[Kimberlee]

this is "kev's" respone to my e-mail that I posted on the first page of this thread:


Hey Kimberlee --

I have no evidence that horses love racing. I'm afraid that's just
transference, hoping that the horses have these qualities because we are
entertained by the spectacle of rich people racing their animals for sport.
They're bred and trained to run fast; it's not like they've made a life choice.

If they love it so much, why do the jockeys have whips in the first place?

As I wrote, my hope is that we don't simply weep for Barbaro and then go about
our business. My hope is that Barbaro's legacy will be that people get more
concerned about the safety of these magnificent animals. There are, indeed,
staggering abuses in thoroughbred racing, and I'd love to see efforts to make
the sport safer.

I do think there have been strides in that direction that are absolutely due
to peoples' concern about Barbaro -- possibly the anti-slaughter bill could
indeed be traced to the public outpouring of emotion. Wherever Barbado is laid
to rest, if his epitaph reads: "his struggle pioneered great breathroughs in
the safety and care of thoroughbreds'' I think that would be just fine.

Thanks for reading --

kev


== You can't tell me my two thoroughbreds didn't love running for runnings sake. I guess he is not a horse person at all. The next is what he wrote back to me re his comment about the public paying for Barbaro's care:

Hello again, Kimberlee --

I certainly did not mean to insinuate that the public was paying for Barbaro's
care. The anonymous donor is widely believe to be Roy and Gretchen Jackson
(although obviously I can't write that for sure because the desire to remain
anonymous makes checking the facts impossible; but the Jacksons are genuinely
nice people and their charitable contributions in this arena are many and very
generous). But I will say that a great number of the checks written by the
general public were people trying to express sentiment for Barbaro. I know
people who contributed; and I can tell you their motivation was not equine
research, it was doing something for Barbaro. A great number of people just
wanted to do something, anything; whether it was send an email or treats or
whatever. Some wrote a check. I'm not knocking that effort, just including it
in the litany of ways people attempted to show support for Barbaro.

Thanks again for reading --

kev

[Eventer13]

SOOOO im assuming that you have the same view of reining right? since doing rollbacks, galloping down to spins where all the weight is distributed upon one hind leg and they are at risk of snapping their pelvis....all at the ripe old age of 2 and 3...broke as yearlings doing those moves at 2...

you rally against reining as much right?

Now that (reining at age 2) IS something Im against. *Why* do they do that? There has to be so much stress placed on their joints, I wonder how many have awful arthritis at the age of 10.

If you look at the WEG results, werent many of the horses something like 6 yrs old? Sounds like they were pushed, pushed, pushed to me.

I had heard there was abuse in reining, but I guess I always put the sport mentally in the "dressage" category (not that abuse cant happen in dressage!) so I thought they were more into training their horses in a classical manner.

As for racing, Im sure there are good and bad trainers, like any sport. I wish the PETA people would focus more of their attention on something that would be MUCH more worthwhile, like educating the backyard breeders on why they shouldnt breed that mare with shitty conformation and no athletic ability "just because." Save a lot more horses in the end.

[CANTERSoIL]

this is "kev's" respone to my e-mail that I posted on the first page of this thread:


Hey Kimberlee --

I have no evidence that horses love racing.

Send him this link. ;)

http://canterusa.org/southernillinois/success/persimmonhillapril10/race.AVI
(both retired racehorses)

[flshgordon]

YOUNG BONES JUST CAN'T TAKE THE STRESS OF RACING! A RIDER SHOULD NOT BE ON THEIR BACKS UNTIL THEY ARE ALMOST 4!!!!!!

I agree that racing is barbaric and should be outlawed.

.........
Why start them so young? It's cruel. Why not wait until they are 4 or 5? If they all had to wait until that age, then they'd all have the same "age" handicap.

But I guess that's not good enough for all the money hungry people who watch and participate in this barbaric sport.

Racing people don't love horses - they love the money - if they did love the horses, they would not race them until their young bones could take it.

Give me a break....Isn't it about time people stopped spouting useless, ignorant opinions like these?

If you actually did any research other than on PETA's website, you would find that most of your info is dead wrong and that horses started later on the track can't hold up to the stresses of it.

On the other hand, you must be right....no one in the racing industry, including the Jacksons love their horses at all :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: