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Sir's_Mom
Jan. 27, 2007, 07:32 PM
Well, I started the Buzz man on his IV Oxy 10 today, and I feel so bad for the big guy. He was such a star when the vet put his catheter in, didn't bat an eye, even for the suturing! But he was a bit down, probably the Lyme itself, not the treatment, but he got MASSIVE amounts of treats during the whole thing! Even the vet stopped and got him a peppermint, since he was so good!

Any words of wisdom from people who have been through it? I had a horse here go through the whole thing, and she's ok, but I still feel bad for him... :frown:

irishcas
Jan. 27, 2007, 08:56 PM
Hey Sir:

I'm treating Finn for Lymes, but using Doxy for 4 months.

Is the vet coming out every day or are you administering the drug yourself?

how much is this costing if you don't mind my asking.

Are you using Pine Bush?

Thanks

Kiwayu
Jan. 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
I totally know what you're going through. Kiwayu has had Lyme 3x so far in the past 1.5 years. The IV OxyTet was the only thing that worked for us. Even having the vet come everyday for 10 days was cheaper! :yes: The sooner you treat the better. Kiwayu now has the WORST arthritis from the Lyme. It just stinks. :(

We really should have a Lymes support group!

Lori T
Jan. 27, 2007, 10:06 PM
Pilgrim is 15 days into his tetracycline treatment. I have started doing light conditioning work, mainly just a short walk around the block. He is so happy to get out and so far he seems sound. Good luck!

Sir's_Mom
Jan. 28, 2007, 07:42 AM
Irishcas,
I'm administering the drug myself (although vet did first treatment to make sure he didn't react and everything went in smoothly), as he has a catheter, so no needles, no having to find the vein everytime, etc.

I haven't gotten my bill yet, so no clue, but I figure that it's cheaper than having my horse be lame for the rest of his life!!

No, I don't like Pine Bush, I use Katie Gould (ex-Pine Bush vet) from Mid-Hudson Equine.

He's on OxyTet 2x daily for 2 weeks, then a month of Doxy. I can start working him again in about a month... At least it's the winter, and I don't really want to ride for the next month or so!!

irishcas
Jan. 28, 2007, 09:40 AM
What made you think to test for Lyme's. I'm compiling symptoms and am finding it exhibits in more sublte ways than just joint issues.

What was his titer? Finn's was 474.

I was just curious about the cost, not to say not to do it, just wondering :) I'm using a holistic vet from Virigina. He likes the Doxy treatment over the Oxy/Tet. But I'm starting to wonder.

I won't switch treatments mid stream I'll see this thru to the end. Then test in 4 months or so. If I need to then I'll try your method. I know Kiwayu wen thru this more than once and is sounds like her horse was helped with the treatment you are on. When does your vet recommend that you retest?

I also have him on a blend of Chinese Herbs for help with building his immune system.

i'maddicted
Jan. 28, 2007, 09:46 AM
I would HIGHLY recommend Chiropractic/massage therapy in conjunction with the meds. Lyme seems to create an overall "achy" body and these therapies can help them feel better while the drugs are kicking in.

Lori T
Jan. 28, 2007, 12:40 PM
Pilgrim's titer was something like 460. I had a chiro out last week for him and we started riding him this week, just 15 min every other day at the walk. He seems better!
His signs were intermittent lameness, usually, but not always the left side, both back and front. He could come in for breakfast and canter up to the gate just fine, and then 20 minutes later come out of his stall 3 legged. Once he appeared to really be going downhill. He was acting like he couldn't see, was depressed and lame. That was when I found a tick and an abcess which got me wondering about tick diseases. After I pulled the tick, he was better that afternoon! This has been going on since Halloween.
Good luck!!

vxf111
Jan. 28, 2007, 12:44 PM
I can't stand ticks. I can't stand lyme. Ugh. Shane's had it 3 times. I'll join ;)

The only words of wisdom I have is to MAKE SURE THE HORSE GETS HIS DOXY EVERY DAY WITHOUT FAIL and to regugularly re-check the levels by titer to see whether you're beating the lyme. One of the times Shane had lyme was potentially a re-flare up of a prior episode that he never really recovered from. If I had MADE SURE the barn staff was actually giving him the meds and done some re-titering, I wonder if I would have cut that off at the pass. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

irishcas
Jan. 28, 2007, 01:44 PM
Finn is getting 50 tablets 2x a day, along with his Lyme Immune Supplement.

One vet told me not to retest for 6 months. What have you all done?

Thanks

Lori T
Jan. 28, 2007, 01:50 PM
Finn is getting 50 tablets 2x a day, along with his Lyme Immune Supplement.

One vet told me not to retest for 6 months. What have you all done?

Thanks

What is Lyme Immune supplement?

isaidwhoa
Jan. 28, 2007, 02:12 PM
This is a great thread, may I join? I've had several in the barn with Lyme. I'm positive my vet is under medicating at 25 doxys 2x per day. The next time someone comes up with symptoms I'm going to insist we up the dosage. Hopefully that will keep reoccurances down. Most of my crew are about 950lbs with one 750 and one 1250. What kind of dosages are your horses getting compared to mine?

Kiwayu
Jan. 28, 2007, 03:52 PM
I retest Kiwayu every 6 months (for the rest of his life) as per my vet. His titer has not gone down from 860. At one point it was 1260.

kwilhide
Jan. 28, 2007, 04:05 PM
The guidance from Cornell, who did a session on this with my local vet group is 4.5 tablets/100 lbs. body weight twice per day(45 pills for 1000 lb horse, twice per day).

My prior vet did not have this guidance, and prescribed 35 tablets/2x day. My horse relapsed.

I also used immune builders during treatment, chinese(Astragalus 10) as well as an herbal immune supplment from silverlining herbs.

That horse is doing well now, but my other one was tested low positive last week, so starting this all over again.

They have been doing parallel tests with the canine snap test and the full blown lyme test done at Cornell with very good, mostly consistent results except if the horse is 'borderline'. This is good news, as the snap test is only about $25 and results are same day.

irishcas
Jan. 28, 2007, 07:03 PM
What is Lyme Immune supplement?

Hi Lori,

As I said I'm using a vet in Virginia, his name is Dr. Timothy Weed, if you'd like his phone number PM me and I'll share it.

kwilhide,

I recently heard about the snap test, how cool. I'll use that the next time I test Finn.

This is great information guys. As a Barefoot Farrier, I'm finding that if a horse isn't sound within 3 trims something else is wrong.

I've struggled with Finn for years, finally decided to test for Lyme and voila.

So Paige Poss and I are starting to compile info and wow a lot of horses have Lymes.

Do you all find that some vets don't believe it. One vet who comes to our barn said there is no such thing as Lymes :( Despite the positive test from Cornell.

Regards,

Sir's_Mom
Jan. 28, 2007, 08:33 PM
Buzz's symptoms were very mild, he just wasn't himself. This is my lovely horse who would come walking over to me anytime he saw me (including leaving his yummies at dinnertime!), to being kinda "blah". He also had a VERY subtle wandering lameness, even the vet said that he wasn't lame until I pointed out he wasn't tracking evenly behind. But it would switch legs, as well as look like it was coming from different sources (sometimes looked like hock, sometimes higher, maybe SI, then more like foot). We tested his titer was about 480. The vet suggested the OxyTet since her finding were that it really knocks it out of them better than doxy alone. He'll be on Doxy for a month after the inital 2 weeks of IV. I am also keeping him on joint support and doing supportive energy work. I've also been handwalking him twice a day, as since the ground froze he doesn't really want to leave his nice warm shed. Seems silly, handwalking a horse that is 24/7 turnout!! But he seems to enjoy the walk in the nice footing in our indoor!!

kwilhide
Jan. 29, 2007, 11:59 AM
to irishcas
re: vet disbelief

There definitely seems to be 2 camps. My former vet did the lyme test at my request, and I think was surprised at the result.
My current vet and associates have seen enough now to know it is a real issue. They even say a personality change can be the first sign.

With my horse who is now currently diagnosed, it was a feeling - no lameness, just attitude, he even kicked me a couple of times(ususally it is just an opinion, and he "misses" :o)
In any case, while it is a low positive, there is no question in my mind to treat, after what I have seen with my other horse who probably had it when I bought him and it was ignored.

I also think the immune support is important, but I know some of my friends think I am a quack.

draftgirl01
Jan. 29, 2007, 08:10 PM
I am a member. Mare was on doxy, 100 tablets a day for 2 months. Starting noticing behavior changes, and she seemed to be intermittently lame but in different legs at different times. She was tripping alot! Was so slow coming out of the pasture. And terrible to ride under saddle, just was not right. Final straw was when she fell down in canter for no apparent reason.

But the effects have been hard on her. Lots of osteoarthritis issues, she is on Adequan and Conquer Gel, and has a course of Legend and massage and chiro work to put her body back together again.

It has been a very hard year of us from this. Vet will retest her in the Spring.

Sir's_Mom
Jan. 30, 2007, 08:30 AM
Wow, it seems like your vets were giving much lower doses than mine, Buzzy will be on 60 tabs 2 x daily (120 a day) for a month after the IV OxyTet. So far, not too much arthritis to deal with. I am HOPING I kept it at bay with the energy work that I do on him consistently, and now that he is being treated...I can tell he already feels better, much more himself after just 3 days on the meds!

Hopefully
Jan. 30, 2007, 11:26 AM
What kind of dosages are your horses getting compared to mine?

I am treating a 950-lb mare with 45 pills, 2x/day, for 90 days. I dont' know what her original titre was, but vet described it as 'moderate'. She was mostly asymptomatic, we diagnosed Lymes' almost accidentally while looking at something else.

cosmos mom
Jan. 30, 2007, 03:20 PM
Personally, I found the 10 day IV Oxytetracycline followed by 30 days of oral Doxycycline to work really well for my horse. Keep in mind that when you are talking about doses, they are in milligrams of drug/kilogram of body weight of the horse. The pills can be 75 mg or 100 mg- which might explain some of the differences in dosing noted here. Also..and don't flame me for this: It's Lyme Disease- not Lymes or Lyme's :).

kwilhide
Jan. 30, 2007, 04:10 PM
Cosmos Mom, Good point on the dosage, though I mostly see the 100mg.

The guidance on mine is 4.5 "100mg" pills per 100 lbs. body weight, twice per day.

draftgirl01
Jan. 30, 2007, 06:29 PM
Sir's Mom, my current vet also thought the prescribed dose was low, but the mare has improved and we plan to retest her in the Spring.

Janet
Jan. 30, 2007, 06:36 PM
Belle just got tested. Will know in about 10 days.

Sir's_Mom
Jan. 31, 2007, 07:03 PM
GRRRR...catheter didn't work this morning! So the Buzz man didn't get his meds today. :( Plus, vet is away this week, but is sending her partner to replace catheter tomorrow. So he'll probably miss 3 doses. I'm REALLY hoping this doesn't set him back, as he's been doing so well so far!!

irishcas
Feb. 2, 2007, 05:58 PM
Sir's Mom,

What happened with Buzz? Did you get the Catheter reinserted, what happened with the delay of meds?

Regards,

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 2, 2007, 06:19 PM
Got the new catheter in yesterday...different kind, that has a smaller piece attached to his neck, so less likely for him to be able to rub it out. Vet said I should just extend the missed day at the end. Since he is getting a full two weeks (not 10 days, which some people choose), she said it shouldn't be a problem. He is such a good boy! He falls asleep during all this fussing over him!!!

I have also just received his neck rug, so I'm hoping the extra padding will help as well!

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 3, 2007, 09:43 PM
So, anyone do herbal (or other supplemental) support for your horses immune system to help them shed the bacteria, as well as help thier system deal with the (in my case HIGH levels) of antibiotic? I was thinking of getting a bucket of Accel Lifetime for him while he's on the meds, in addition to Probiotics while he's on the Doxy...

irishcas
Feb. 3, 2007, 10:46 PM
Yes I do as stated above in this thread :)

I use a Lyme Support blend from Dr. Timothy Weed in Virginia.

Two other great sites to checkout are:

www.earthsongranch.com and
www.forloveofthehorse.com

I think a combo of Eastern/Western medicine is critical to healing. Like everything it is a blend, not just one thing to heal an issue.

Regards,

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 4, 2007, 07:11 AM
irishcas,
Thank you for the links! I think I am going to order the Lyme Nosode from EarthSong!

Anyone else?

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 8, 2007, 08:28 AM
GRRRR again! Buzz's new catheter FROZE yesterday! So vet and I decided he had had enough! He got 10 days of the IV (we wanted to go for 14), but at this rate we will be replacing the catheter every day! So onto oral doxy. He seems to eat it ok, and he's on major doses of Probios. I also got a sample of EarthAngel's Lyme Support mix. We'll see if he'll eat it!

But on a bright note, he's already back to his old self, and I can't wait to get back to riding him! My trainer leaves for FL for 4 weeks tomorrow morning, but I will get him back in shape so when she comes home, she can see how great he is doing!!

cosmos mom
Feb. 8, 2007, 09:00 AM
Got the new catheter in yesterday...different kind, that has a smaller piece attached to his neck, so less likely for him to be able to rub it out. Vet said I should just extend the missed day at the end. Since he is getting a full two weeks (not 10 days, which some people choose), she said it shouldn't be a problem. He is such a good boy! He falls asleep during all this fussing over him!!!

I have also just received his neck rug, so I'm hoping the extra padding will help as well!

Get yourself a slinky hood and put it on your horse ASAP! It really helps keep the catheter in place! For probiotics, I used Probios. You need to make sure that you don't use an ulcer product containing calcium or magnesium because it affects the absorption of the antibiotic. I also gave my horse Astralagus 10- a chinese herb and Ledum Palustre- I have no idea how well they worked- but Cos has been good since his initial treatment- so I'm not complaining. I can't reccomment the slinky hood enough- it will make the next 10 days so much easier!-
edited to add- I just read your post about pulling the catheter- keep the hood in mind if you every have to do IV again! p.s. I doubled the suggested dose of probios for a normal horse-and gave it to him 2x's a day.

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 8, 2007, 01:44 PM
Cosmos_Mom,
He did this WITH a slinky on, which was why I got the thicker hood, to see if I could keep it warm and safe! I also am double dosing Buzz on the Probios. I got an herbal Lyme Support from Earth Angel Herbals, we'll see if it helps!

Flower's Girl
Feb. 8, 2007, 03:07 PM
Quin had Lyme's and did the IV meds and recovered really nicely. This was about 2 years ago and she hasn't gotten it again. The vet thought it was silly to test for it - but her test came back with the highest titer ever in my county!!!! This was Loudoun Country VA - LOTS of horses!!! I want to say it was 1800, but can't really remember for sure as it was several years ago.

meredithbarlow
Feb. 8, 2007, 08:14 PM
Heres some info I thought you all might be interested, its why I would never treat with doxy again. ( I have three clients who I referred to their vet when I saw possible signs of lyme, the vets diagnosed them with lyme and confirmed with titers- 2 were treated with tetracycline and got better, the one that was treated with doxy is still suffering symptoms lol not like 3 horses is a study or anything, but the info below is.)

"4. Treatment Study
In a third and separate study, naîve ponies were infected with B. burgdorferi, and after infection, ponies were treated with either tetracycline [a] (6.6 mg/kg IV, q 12 h), doxycycline [b] (10 mg/kg PO, q 12 h), or ceftiofur [c]. (2.2 mg/kg IM, q 12 h). All treatments were for 3 wk. Ponies were euthanized 4 mo after treatment was discontinued. Serology was performed every 3 wk throughout the study period. All ponies treated with tetracycline had a progressive decline in ELISA units at the time of euthanasia. Tetracycline-treated ponies were negative on both culture and PCR. Doxycycline and ceftiofur produced inconsistent results in serologic response and culture findings." " Our treatment studies suggest that tetracycline given IV is superior to orally administered doxycycline or IM ceftiofur. The superiority of tetracycline over doxycycline might be related to expected higher tissue concentrations with tetracycline, because doxycycline has been shown to have low bioavailability when given orally to horses [14]. Aqueous humor samples collected from our experimental ponies, as part of a separate study, did not have doxycycline concentrations above measurable levels (0.3 g/ml). Some of the ponies treated with doxycycline or ceftiofur had a significant decline in antibody level during treatment, but antibody level increased after treatment was discontinued." Taken from ivis.org

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 9, 2007, 08:48 AM
My vet's prefered treatment is the IV OxyTet, then oral doxy. She feels that with the 10 days of IV, he's ok to go onto orals.

But VERY interesting info, I may pass on to my vet!

meredithbarlow
Feb. 9, 2007, 10:09 AM
I know a lot of vets doing what your vet is doing, and I really like it! I sure don't see how it could hurt, as long as the oxytet is done for at least 10 days. btw- has anyone ever talked to a vet that claimed lyme disease doesn't exist in horses?? Its kinda funny, after listening to all of you talk!

irishcas
Feb. 9, 2007, 10:20 AM
Meredith:

I stated up in the beginning of this thread about a vet that comes to the farm for the other horses. She told me Lyme doesn't really exist.

So the vet I'm using in Virgina got such a kick out of that he said well then they must be Doxy Deficient horses ;)

What a silly ignorant thing to say isn't it.

Regards,

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 11, 2007, 10:21 AM
So, the Buzz man is eating his Doxy like a good boy, and seems to like the herbal supplement. I'm going to try him on the lunge tomorrow, see how he does!!

Colours932
Feb. 11, 2007, 04:51 PM
btw- has anyone ever talked to a vet that claimed lyme disease doesn't exist in horses?? Its kinda funny, after listening to all of you talk!

There's an otherwise good vet practice in my area that believes horses only rarely have lyme disease. One vet there said that he's seen maybe three horses with it in the last several years! I was somewhat okay with that, until they stopped listening to me about the lyme symptoms my horse was showing.

I went through the whole lyme disease thing with my mare last year. She was a little lethargic, slightly dull coat, not her normal easy keeper weight(you could actually see ribs on 24/7 turnout thru spring/summer), and had a LF lameness that wasn't responding to anything.
So we put her on Doxy for a month with no change. Then pulled another titer and it had gone up, so we decided to do two weeks of IV oxytet. They put in the catheter, gave the first dose and she had an allergic reaction, so we couldn't continue that treatment. All along the vet didn't think my mare actually had lyme symptoms, but we know her and were pretty sure it was lyme. At that point we got a second opinion, and that vet put her on three months of Doxy. So, four days into the doxy she was a totally different horse, back to her normal self! All I can think is that the Oxytet jump started it for the doxy to work.

Needless to say, we've decided to switch vets after all this!

My mare was on Ledum Palustre(for one week), Immusyn, and Fastrack during treatment. Accel Lifetime looks great and I had considered using it, but just stuck with the Immusyn instead.

Lori T
Feb. 11, 2007, 08:43 PM
Well, now I am really glad my vet prescribed tetracycline. I was having second thoughts about his treatment, after seeing how so many posters here seem to be using the doxy. Pilgrim is in his 4th week of tetracycline. I have begun to ride him for about 15 minutes to slowly rebuild his muscles and strength. I still don't know if he will be able to event again, although when I see him galloping around the field with his buddies, it is hard to believe he is sick!!



Heres some info I thought you all might be interested, its why I would never treat with doxy again. ( I have three clients who I referred to their vet when I saw possible signs of lyme, the vets diagnosed them with lyme and confirmed with titers- 2 were treated with tetracycline and got better, the one that was treated with doxy is still suffering symptoms lol not like 3 horses is a study or anything, but the info below is.)

"4. Treatment Study
In a third and separate study, naîve ponies were infected with B. burgdorferi, and after infection, ponies were treated with either tetracycline [a] (6.6 mg/kg IV, q 12 h), doxycycline [b] (10 mg/kg PO, q 12 h), or ceftiofur [c]. (2.2 mg/kg IM, q 12 h). All treatments were for 3 wk. Ponies were euthanized 4 mo after treatment was discontinued. Serology was performed every 3 wk throughout the study period. All ponies treated with tetracycline had a progressive decline in ELISA units at the time of euthanasia. Tetracycline-treated ponies were negative on both culture and PCR. Doxycycline and ceftiofur produced inconsistent results in serologic response and culture findings." " Our treatment studies suggest that tetracycline given IV is superior to orally administered doxycycline or IM ceftiofur. The superiority of tetracycline over doxycycline might be related to expected higher tissue concentrations with tetracycline, because doxycycline has been shown to have low bioavailability when given orally to horses [14]. Aqueous humor samples collected from our experimental ponies, as part of a separate study, did not have doxycycline concentrations above measurable levels (0.3 g/ml). Some of the ponies treated with doxycycline or ceftiofur had a significant decline in antibody level during treatment, but antibody level increased after treatment was discontinued." Taken from ivis.org

Janet
Feb. 11, 2007, 09:44 PM
Belle's results were a little bit equivocal, but the vet and the pathologist agreed that
sShe has Lyme
She is doing a relatively good job of fighting it off herself
But not completely, so she needs some hlep.

50 doxy twice a day for 3 weeks
5cc levamazole once a day fr 18 days.

meredithbarlow
Feb. 11, 2007, 11:19 PM
5cc levamazole once a day fr 18 days.

What's that/what is it for. Just curious, not second guessing, just never heard of it, which is weird lol usually if its a horse drug my horses have had it.

Janet
Feb. 12, 2007, 08:31 AM
The primary use for lavamazole is a wormer (for sheep). But it is also used as an immune stimulant for horses.

Music has been on it (5cc/day x 6 days/month) for 10 years.

tender
Feb. 16, 2007, 07:25 PM
reading through this thread spurred me to look at the results of the titer my horse had in 1994. 1:2560 WOW! Does that mean what I think it means?

He was treated with Terremycin.

GatoGordo
Feb. 16, 2007, 11:48 PM
I think the reason that some vets think it is very rare/are skeptical is that so far no one has produced neurological and/or orthopedic disease experimentally, even though the horses definitely had active infections, although I don't think there have been very many attempts. ($$$$$)

This is coupled with the fact that, as stated above, doxycycline is an anti-inflammatory in its own right, independent of effects on known pathogens, (there are some studies in various species showing it may have promise as a treatment for osteoarthritis) and so it is very suspicious when someone diagnoses Lyme based on a titer and the response to doxycycline. It is possible that some "Lyme" cases would have gotten better with doxy and some time off anyway.

I think this skepticism is fueled by observations of owners who have a lame horse and request Lyme tests when their horses' symptoms are more likely caused by something else, and other vets who "diagnose" Lyme disease without doing a rigorous exclusion of other causes and who do not have very solid reason to put Lyme at *the top* of the list of differentials.

IMO, horses in places with endemic Lyme are probably frequently exposed to the disease (I can't tell you how many deer ticks asterix and I pulled off this year), and I would hazard a guess that many horses are infected but do not have symptoms. At the moment, it seems to me that incidental Lyme findings are likely if you test a horse that is lame or back sore and lives in an endemic area; this does not necessarily mean that Lyme is the most likely cause of a given problem, IMO. I suppose solid reason to suspect Lyme would be the vague, shifting lameness and/or hypersensitivity to touch. Some people like Lyme disease as an answer to a lameness problem.

That's my take on the situation.

cosmos mom
Feb. 17, 2007, 09:27 AM
Good point. The fact that there is limited but not nonexistant experimental data on equine lyme disease is more an issue of finances (as you pointed out-experimental trials on horses are expensive, and since most treatment protocols can be extrapolated from dog and human, there is little point in this) rather than a lack of compelling anticdotal evidence. Plenty of studies have been done on human and canine lyme disease at the results are similar in terms of symptoms, non responders and treatment protocols. Even the major veterinary schools acknowledge lyme disease as a significant heath concern in horses.

While it is true that many owners may wish to diagnose lyme disease first without exhausting other options in terms of lameness exams, a good veterinarian should not be swayed by the client in terms of sound diagnostic approaches. A good vet shouldn't be skeptical of a widely accepted disease process because it is popular with clients, rather, they should be cautious to jump to a random diagnosis without a full exam.

I'm sure that plenty of creaky horses are benefiting from the inti-inflammatory effects of the doxy and some time off, however, if symptoms which are clearly neurological exist and the horse has even a moderate lyme titer, I would tend to accept the diagnosis of lyme disease as correct- Especially if they show a dramatic improvement with the onset of treatment.


I think the reason that some vets think it is very rare/are skeptical is that so far no one has produced neurological and/or orthopedic disease experimentally, even though the horses definitely had active infections, although I don't think there have been very many attempts. ($$$$$)

This is coupled with the fact that, as stated above, doxycycline is an anti-inflammatory in its own right, independent of effects on known pathogens, (there are some studies in various species showing it may have promise as a treatment for osteoarthritis) and so it is very suspicious when someone diagnoses Lyme based on a titer and the response to doxycycline. It is possible that some "Lyme" cases would have gotten better with doxy and some time off anyway.

I think this skepticism is fueled by observations of owners who have a lame horse and request Lyme tests when their horses' symptoms are more likely caused by something else, and other vets who "diagnose" Lyme disease without doing a rigorous exclusion of other causes and who do not have very solid reason to put Lyme at *the top* of the list of differentials.

IMO, horses in places with endemic Lyme are probably frequently exposed to the disease (I can't tell you how many deer ticks asterix and I pulled off this year), and I would hazard a guess that many horses are infected but do not have symptoms. At the moment, it seems to me that incidental Lyme findings are likely if you test a horse that is lame or back sore and lives in an endemic area; this does not necessarily mean that Lyme is the most likely cause of a given problem, IMO. I suppose solid reason to suspect Lyme would be the vague, shifting lameness and/or hypersensitivity to touch. Some people like Lyme disease as an answer to a lameness problem.

That's my take on the situation.

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 17, 2007, 07:20 PM
Due to the weather in my area (see my thread "Oh God, here it comes"), haven't been able to lunge the big man. But I plan on doing it tomorrow, suppose to be a real heat wave, above freezing!! Wish me luck!!

Janet
Feb. 18, 2007, 12:04 AM
Belle started on Doxy and Levamazole last weekend, and I was out of town on business all last week.

I rode her today, and, inspite of the snow/ice footing, I can say that her majr symptom is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. She can canter slowly in the left lead without turning into a pogo stick.

While I am open to the possibility that it is something-other-than-Lyme that responds to the doxy, I don't think it is purely an antiinflamatory affect. Otherwise the "cure" from the doxy would not last for 18+ months.

If it were primarily an antiinflamatory affect, I would expect the symptoms to reappear after you finish the doxy.

Sir's_Mom
Feb. 19, 2007, 01:13 PM
Well, the big man is well on his way to becoming my old pony again! I lunged him yesterday, and he was a star, a bit weak/stiff, but that is to be expected with him having close to 2 months off!! Gonna hop on his this afternoon and get him started again! I want him in fairly good shape when my trainers get back from FL at the end of March!

kiwifruit
Feb. 23, 2007, 06:19 AM
Well...I think I may be a member as well. My barn pulled a lyme test on all of the horses and my guy came back 398-400 on the one test. I have him on doxy and hoping for the best. When does improvement usually start so I can identify it as Lyme or something else? I've read that if it is truely Lyme, it will be 2-5 days after the start of treatment. I still have my guy in moderate work during treatment and he looks better although I just had his hocks done two months ago and he is getting Adequan/Lubrysin as well as the doxy. I'm tempted to pull him off of all other supplements to see what is really going on oh and he also has weak stifles so maybe the work is helping him? God...am I the only one that has a horse with multiple issues and to throw Lyme on top of it???

cosmos mom
Feb. 23, 2007, 07:53 AM
Janet and SM- glad to hear that your kids are on the mend!
Kiwi- my horse definitely improved dramatically within 3-4 days of treatment, however he was getting IV Oxytet- some of the horses at our farm that have been treated with Doxy have started to show improvement in a week or so, yet less dramatic. It may be more dependant on the horse than the treatment- Cos is only 8 years old, the other seven horses that have been treated over the past year and a half are well into their teens or twenties. on another note- I initially had my horse's hocks injected early on with the Lyme Disease (pre-diagnosis) because the vet thought his back pain was related to hocks (he didn't flex positive, but the vet said to give it a try- he got worse). I now think it was just the Lyme Disease.

kcooper
Feb. 23, 2007, 08:51 AM
I went thru this with Cleo a year and a half ago. Last summer, I had her tested twice due to paranoia. Both were negative. The highest titre she had was 180 and she tested negative twice before that. But she was very, very sick and the vet thinks she was simply not mounting an immunce response, which is why she got so sick and why the titre was low (since it tests for antibodies). I am going to do the snap test this summer a couple of times as well just to be onthe safe side.
When she was sick with Lyme last year, she got to the point where all four legs were swollen, she was intermittently lame in all four legs, she was SO depressed it was like she was sedated and she fell over once when I was doing circles at the walk. It took three vets to finally get a diagnosis. After 5 days on oral doxy (100 pills per day) she was herself again.
So far, she is sound and seems to have no obvious lasting affect, except that she now has windpuffs in all four legs. She never had them before the Lyme and they have never gone away since. So I think that edema stretched out those tissues.
Knocking on wood for another Lyme free summer!

GatoGordo
Feb. 23, 2007, 03:03 PM
Kcooper, Janet, SM, glad your horses are on the mend!

I hope I didn't come across as sounding like *I* don't "believe" in Lyme. I do. I guess I'm sort of being the devil's advocate.

Kiwifruit, I don't mean to pick on you, but your barn testing *all* of the horses for titers sounds like the sort of thing that bothers the "skeptic" vets I know. Why did they test all the horses? Are all the horses showing symptoms? Are they going to treat all the horses that come up positive, or only the ones that are lame/showing symptoms? I'm genuinely curious as to the thought process behind this.

kiwifruit
Feb. 23, 2007, 05:15 PM
Pick away, Gatogordo! I'm the biggest skeptic at heart when it comes to such things myself! The barn's owner's dogs both had lyme and one other horse tested positive for Lyme (we live in SE Pennsylvania) so she had the vet pull a tilter and Western Blot on all the horses to get a baseline. All horses (except a yearling that just moved to our barn) came back positive with numbers running from 300-900. I don't know if they were showing positive symptoms but at this point the whole barn is on daily doxy. The barn owner said she wants to do this yearly to get a baseline. My guy had a shifting lameness in the hind end and very sensitive to grooming. In the summer he is very lethargic even though he is a TB. Do I believe he has Lyme?.....the jury is still out. It would be great to think he does but I think there are other issues that I need to work through. I'm taking him to see Dr. Kevin Keane next week to have a second opinion and hopefully more answers.

GatoGordo
Feb. 23, 2007, 06:07 PM
Thanks for responding!

An entire barn on daily doxy! Yeesh, that's what gives us skeptics shivers.

I would be tempted to ask if we should test our horses for EPM titers and start Rebalance for the 60% or whatever that will test positive in the mid-Atlantic. Then again, I'm an incorrigible wise***, so maybe I should just stay away. ;)

I know you don't need validation from some stranger on the internet, but it sounds like you are doing all the right things for your guy. He *is* one that sounds "doxy-deficient", unlike asterix's horses, who undoubtedly would come up positive to a Lyme titer but already get their RDA of doxy (none). Good luck with him!

Loves to ride
Mar. 4, 2007, 09:03 AM
Unfortunately, I think I'm a new member to my horses have Lyme clique.

My 25 yr old retired trail horse with no symptoms (except those originally thought to be associated with being 25 and being ridden alot throughout his life), just came back with strongly positive on western blot and ELISA (1:20480 - showing months of exposure/infection) :( .

My other guy is weakly positive on both (ELISA 1:640/western blot suspect Bb activity), but has been showing some weird symptoms over the last year, and did have confirmed ehrlichia. I think we may treat him also and are definitely treating my poor old guy! I just got the results yesterday so I'm not sure what my vet will recommend for treatment.

I do have a question on pre/pro biotics. Both of them are on a daily maintenance dose of the US Animal Nutritionals
http://www.usanimalnutritionals.com/ultra-elite-digest.html

When they start their treatment, is this enough? Should I increase the dosage of this or try add something else?

Irishcas, I PM'd you asking about more info on the Lyme immune supplement you mentioned in earlier posts.

As far as prevention. I've tried everything, including Deep Woods Off as I'm heading out on the trails and still found sometimes 50+ ticks on my horse after the ride. I don't have a ring so I have to ride on the trails or trailer out, and I love trail riding. Has anyone found anything that works on these darn ticks?

Sorry for multiple questions, but they are all related to Lyme.

Thanks for recommendations! This and other Lyme threads have been immensely helpful...

cosmos mom
Mar. 4, 2007, 09:24 AM
I would increase the probiotics for antibiotic treatment. If at all possible, don't feed them at the same time as the antibiotic. Also, keep in mind that titers are a measure of the antibody production against the invader- they are not a good estimate of how much exposure or how long an animal has been exposed. ELISAs can cross react with other antibodies and be falsely low. A good lameness/physical exame to rule out other problems, a CBC, ELISA test, western blot and review of the symptoms are needed to "diagnose" Lyme disease. Even then- you may have multiple issues going on. My horse showed a rapid and sustained improvement about 4 days after treatment began, so Lyme was definitely a good diagnosis in his case.


Unfortunately, I think I'm a new member to my horses have Lyme clique.

My 25 yr old retired trail horse with no symptoms (except those originally thought to be associated with being 25 and being ridden alot throughout his life), just came back with strongly positive on western blot and ELISA (1:20480 - showing months of exposure/infection) :( .

My other guy is weakly positive on both (ELISA 1:640/western blot suspect Bb activity), but has been showing some weird symptoms over the last year, and did have confirmed ehrlichia. I think we may treat him also and are definitely treating my poor old guy! I just got the results yesterday so I'm not sure what my vet will recommend for treatment.

I do have a question on pre/pro biotics. Both of them are on a daily maintenance dose of the US Animal Nutritionals
http://www.usanimalnutritionals.com/ultra-elite-digest.html

When they start their treatment, is this enough? Should I increase the dosage of this or try add something else?

Irishcas, I PM'd you asking about more info on the Lyme immune supplement you mentioned in earlier posts.

As far as prevention. I've tried everything, including Deep Woods Off as I'm heading out on the trails and still found sometimes 50+ ticks on my horse after the ride. I don't have a ring so I have to ride on the trails or trailer out, and I love trail riding. Has anyone found anything that works on these darn ticks?

Sorry for multiple questions, but they are all related to Lyme.

Thanks for recommendations! This and other Lyme threads have been immensely helpful...

caballus
Mar. 4, 2007, 09:35 AM
Has anyone considered trying the Homeopathic remedy called "Ledum"? I've had 2 horses and one dog with Lyme plus our younger daughter who tested pos. for all 3 Lymes buggies. Horses and dog treated with Ledum with good results. Daughter took one bout of Doxy then with recurring symptoms did the Ledum. She's been symptom free all winter since the Ledum. She's due to be retested shortly. Here's a brief article about it on Steven Tobin, DVM and personal ancetodal information: http://cassia.org/ledum.htm

Sir's_Mom
Mar. 4, 2007, 09:37 AM
Just a quick update...Buzz has finished his doxy, and is doing FANTASTIC! I'm having such a blast getting him back into shape (except for the occasional bucking episode, but I expect that!) and he's really improving. I also had him on an herbal Lyme Support from Earth Angel Herbals. Seemed to help!

MsM
Mar. 4, 2007, 09:52 AM
I hope to remain a former member of the clique!:winkgrin:
Stevie had Lyme about six years ago. Started out with a lameness that shifted legs and a poor attitude. This horse, who loved to be curried, now didnt want to be touched! Because he had had soundness issues we first looked at shoeing and injuries, then when the vet came for a second visit and found him lame in a totally different way, he drew blood to check for Lyme.
Now the horse was living in Old Lyme, so we knew there would be a titer - the tough thing around here is evaluating whether it is high enough when combined with clinical signs to indicate an active infection. Turns out it was very high. Treated with doxy (which really was what was done back then!) and then retested 30 days after treatment ended. Titer was way down and all clinical signs were gone.
Happily, as far as I can tell, he has suffered no lasting effects and has had no recurrances. Of course he has explored other aspects of veterinary medicine with several serious injuries and a bout of Ehrlichiosis!:eek:

Loves to ride
Mar. 9, 2007, 06:53 PM
What are typical side effects of doxy?

My guys have been on doxy for 5 days now and seem to have looser manure. They are acting fine, just looser manure. I think my vet said this was a possibility?

Is this normal?

Are there other side effects that I should be aware of or things to look for?

And in case anyone is wondering, I do have a call into the vet. I just find that usually COTH has a much faster response time! :D

Iride
May. 24, 2007, 08:12 AM
I was wondering if anyone has/had a horse who tested positive on the Elisa and Western Blot but with low positive levels. We have a horse whose recent results were: ELISA Units 259; and Western Blot- Low Level of Antibody to Infection.

Would you treat this horse? Symptoms are lethargy and stiffness... no lameness, swelling, fever. Horse just turned 4 years old.

jester1113
May. 24, 2007, 08:21 AM
Get yourself a slinky hood and put it on your horse ASAP! It really helps keep the catheter in place! For probiotics, I used Probios. You need to make sure that you don't use an ulcer product containing calcium or magnesium because it affects the absorption of the antibiotic.

I just got a positivie diagnosis yesterday from Monday's test although I'm STILL waiting for the vet to call me back (I called the office and they told me).

I have my horse on mag ox for muscles tightness (probably due to Lyme) -- should I STOP that once he's on the meds?

Also, re: catheter -- do you put them in the clinic for this? My horse is field boarded, and I'm leery of using a catheter because of that...I'm not even sure I can put him in a stall, we don't have an open one.

Gah. :no:

Janet
May. 24, 2007, 10:05 AM
Also, re: catheter -- do you put them in the clinic for this? My horse is field boarded, and I'm leery of using a catheter because of that...I'm not even sure I can put him in a stall, we don't have an open one. It is a long time ago, so i can't swear to it- but I am pretty sure Music was allowed out with her catherter. Definitely did NOT go to a clinic.

jester1113
May. 25, 2007, 10:34 AM
The more I think about it, the more leery I am of a catheter. So we're getting a western blot on Tuesday, and I'm going to do at least 5 days of the IV Tet, so that's at least four farm call fees (trailering over for the blood pull). (While I can give IV shots, giving that many of them in a row with tetracycline just seems to be tempting fate...)

arabianhorse
Oct. 22, 2007, 04:05 AM
I got this mare of my dreams turns out she had lymes and was treated (3 times previous owner)I found out after I shipped her cross country.

I see the first entry of her doxy 2/6/2006 so she had it for a long time now.
I spent $300 on doxy and was trying to continue her prescription of 22 100mg capsules twice a day.

She will not eat the stuff I tried everything to mask it I would grind the pills and use maple syrup molasses cool aid applesauce mixed apples carrots and she just
now refuses to eat any thing that is not plain grain she did not even eat her cut up apples with out medication on them....

Then i stuck my finger in the mix I made for her and it's so bitter even if you have a small amount of powder to a bottle of syrup it's just bitter.

How do you feed your horses the pills. mine is coated but I do not think my mare will even swallow 25 pills twice a day.

I want to try the catheter but this mare is not in a stable I do not think it would stay on for more than a hour or so.

kwilhide
Oct. 22, 2007, 05:45 AM
The doxy pills (orangy in color) have a very hard coating on them that is not bitter. I find that I could just throw them into the grain with some wet beet pulp and the horses ate it without even realizing it. I made sure they were added at the last minute so they didn't dissolve at all. This worked much better than trying to mask the taste, as it seems the doxy pills once dissovled even in something like molasses gives everything they touch a bitter taste.

Otherwise, you can get the capsules and they dissolve faster and use a dose syringe, the tablets are so hard they are difficult to crush.

Wishing you luck with the lyme disease, I purchased a horse with it as well, it was a long road but he is fine now.

Someone told me to treat every year as it never really goes away once it takes hold, expensive, not sure what I will do. I hate the thought of giving an anti-biotic in that manner, as this horse also happens to be ulcer-prone(probably from drugs, plus the stress he was under when in so much pain from the lyme disease....and an OTTB to boot).

kwilhide
Oct. 22, 2007, 05:51 AM
On another note, it seems that your dosage might be low, depending on the weight of your horse, as I understand it the protocol is 10mg/kg which works out to 4.5 tablets of the 100 mg tablets per 100 lbs of horse 2x/day. For my 1000 lb horse we started on something lower than that per a vet that was not as familiar with the protocol(25 pills 2x/day) and we had a relapse, my current vet said this was too low, so we treated again at 45 pills 2x/day.

PetiteTreasure
Oct. 22, 2007, 07:58 AM
Wow, this is great. I just found out recently that my (last year) large pony hunter was pos. for lymes. He had started off lame last october-something soft tissue. Then, 6 months after, still lame. I was NOT happy. I kept calling the vet out, but either he was sound or it was always in a different leg. I would ride him, he would buck, and then he would be lame again. Now, after a month of doxy, he's feeling SO much better. Any advice on supplements to use after treatment to get condition back? He's 12 or 13 and has navicular as well. (Funny that he's totally sound to 3'!)

La Gringa
Oct. 22, 2007, 09:07 AM
I'm late to join this, but my old schoolmaster got it last winter and he seems to be on the mend now. We did the Tetracycline treatment - IV.. and it really seemed to work. My BM is a vet tech and was able to get him to take the IV just fine, it was a big damn bottle of Tetracyclaine and not cheap by any means. He had to have a big dose every day for 30 days.

A lot of people questioned the Tetra vs Doxy when I did this. It seems that the results are better if you can do the IV Tetra instead of the pills. We had good results. They use this treatment for humans with it as well. It wouldn't be practical for people without access to a vet daily or vet tech though. I really am lucky she was there to do the treament for me.

He's stiff, but typical for a 20 year old former GP jumper, but nothing like he was when the Lyme was rampant. We are getting another titer this week to check him.

Anybody got an old horse with it?? It really seemed to affect his hind end, hocks. He had the creepy crawlies on the skin too, didn't want to be brushed. Now he is fine being brushed.

Chief2
Oct. 22, 2007, 05:29 PM
Greetings from the Land of Lyme!
We have been member of this clique for many, many years. When I see people amazed by titres in the 300 and 400 range, it amazes me that they are. We are on a large acreage of trees and brush that gets mowed several times a year. Still, it is not unusual for titres to be in the thousands, each year. All it takes to increase a titre is for one drop of serum to overflow into the next level cup in the tester grate, and you are at the higher level until that cup fills and then overflows into the next.

All of the horses on the farms in our area (and many of the workers, incuding myself) get exposed to this by default, so many folks test both for the titre level, and to see if the disease is active.My horses, over the past many years, have registered anywhere from 600 to 23,000 on the first test. Most never showed any signs until they got past the 2500 mark. I have heard of horses appearing symptom-free and registering titres of 48,000 and up. If it is active, we treat. If not, it is indicative of an exposure, and we retest in 6 months to see if there is a change. If so, we treat. I test yearly either way. I was tempted to use the IV tetracyclene route, but now realizing where we live will only result in more Lyme anyways, and seeing the catheter problems and costs, I am going to stay on the doxy route.

For a probiotic I use Uckele's Absorb All; for an immune booster I use Uckele's Herbalmune Plus.

royal militron
Oct. 22, 2007, 06:17 PM
My guy was on 60 pills twice a day for 45 days, relapsed, now is on 60 pills 2x a day for 90 days.

We'll see if it comes back.. if so we'll have to go to the IV. It is very expensive to keep up on the Doxy... With 120 pills a day I had to get almost 900 dollars to last me 90 days I think it was... Ugh! Awful.

dwblover
Oct. 22, 2007, 09:24 PM
I hope your guy feels better soon, but don't despair. My guy had Lyme, was treated with Doxy, and has had absolutely no complications in the past 2.5 years. Knock on wood!!! Although I do treat him with Ledum about once or twice a year.

Iride
Oct. 22, 2007, 09:58 PM
How do you administer/dose the Ledum?