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Dalfan
Jan. 17, 2007, 09:22 PM
Beautiful rider she is.

http://www.dressageclinic.com/promosamplevideos/DC_NewsletterWMPSample.php

Ash N Brenna
Jan. 17, 2007, 09:55 PM
Here's a newbie question about that ride. Her legs look really busy and every once in a while she makes very exaggerated movements with her hands. Explain please?

Ash

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:01 PM
Daflan, your not going to believe this, but I got the email from dressageclinic.com to log in to view the video. I have been fighting for the last hour with my username and password. Is this one of the free videos? I guess it has to be.

I was thinking of posting the same thing, you beat me to it because I couldn't get my username/password straight. God Damn it.

Caroline Weber
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:04 PM
Here's a newbie question about that ride. Her legs look really busy and every once in a while she makes very exaggerated movements with her hands. Explain please?

Ash

Her legs looked a bit busy to me too. The point of the exaggerated hand movements was to demonstrate that she is not holding him in a frame with her hands.

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:09 PM
CAT interference!!! I love it.

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:13 PM
Her legs looked a bit busy to me too. The point of the exaggerated hand movements was to demonstrate that she is not holding him in a frame with her hands....

Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull. No Way.

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:22 PM
I have only the little bit to see, but I can tell you she is giving you a no bullshitting response on what is supposed to happen in the dressage arena. She is right! She is true, I can tell that with what she is saying and feeling is true!

What she is feeling right there in that little snippet, is exactly what I strive for for each of my horses.

I sure wish that I could share the rest of the video, because I do have a dressageclinic.com account. I myself have to figure out my own pw issue to see the whole thing

Caroline Weber
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:44 PM
...

Bull. Bull, Bull, Bull. No Way.

What exactly do you think is bull? I thought her legs looked a bit busy, but not to the point that it bothered me. It looked to me like she was mostly just keeping him forward.

She was demonstrating a GOOD thing with the hand gestures - that she is NOT holding him in a frame.

Dalfan
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:49 PM
I sure wish that I could share the rest of the video, because I do have a dressageclinic.com account. I myself have to figure out my own pw issue to see the whole thing

Please do so as quickly as possible. Would love to see the rest. Would love to see this lovely rider in the next Olympics.

amastrike
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:56 PM
Looks like she's nagging him constantly with her spur....

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 10:58 PM
I can't Daflan. This is a pay per view site. I would love to do so, but I can't. You have to pay for it.

Of course, thats why they put the teaser out. So you would go, like, OMG, I want to see the rest of the video. :eek:

I am a little frustrated tonight because I do have an account, and I do want to see it, and now I have to sit and wait to see the rest. All because I can't remember my god dam freakin password!

Hony
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:02 PM
I don't think it is with the spur because it doesn't look as though the spur actually touches the horse but her calf is quite busy. Perhaps the horse's motion causes this. He looks very springy. I think the point of the hand movement was to show how she could change the place of her hand but maintain the correct connection. Later in the video she released completely to show that she wasn't holding him in. Interesting video to watch. Thanks for posting.

DressageReine
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:09 PM
I think what Ash N Brenna was talking about was not when she would release totally and bring her hands/arms up, but after she had talked about that and was just riding normally. Every once in a while, her hands and forearms would "bounce up", for lack of a better term. It's like a jerky movement, not backwards, just up. I was wondering about it, but she's such a good rider, I don't feel qualified to pick at her position :)

YoungFilly
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:16 PM
I, not that long ago, was in a clinic with a woman from Britian. The forwardness was so not like what we have here in America. I was impressed because I was bouncing! Serious, she had us going so forward, that what I thought was right, inactuallity, was very lame in comparison.

How she got us there:

Odette had to go forward, forward, forward down the long side, and then, even more emphasis on corners, push her even harder in the corners. At points I had to post to get that kind of pushing power, and
I would never post that video on the internet becase she was pushed so hard, and had international gaits, but I was a freakin rag doll on her back.

Sabine
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:30 PM
I watched the same thing today and was mentally struggling if I should sign up again for the service...it is worth it for a while- but not for the long run - I almost wish they would let you sign up just for what you want and charge you when you use it- rather than monthly.

I spoke to her last weekend via e-mail about a clinic out here- she is a great rider- reminds me a little of Kathleen Raine- also a great rider in my mind.
She is very clear about what she wants and doesn't- and from what I heard on the teaser video- I do like her teaching concepts quite a bit.

it is easy to judge her legs and 'busyness'- once you have sat on a great moving WB that is not the most comfortable - you will realize how very hard it is to look still and elegant...it's almost like you have to become a permanent shock absorber.

Dalfan
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:36 PM
And also remember, that was a true working trot. Not a western jog, at all:D .
I saw nothing wrong with her legs. They just reflect the movement of the horse, imo. Watch the really good riders. You will see this "out and in" of the legs in the sit trot.

nero
Jan. 17, 2007, 11:45 PM
Nice horse, looks fun to ride. I like her, legs were a bit busy but not to the detriment of the horses rhythm by the looks of things. She was puffing a lot!! I'm sure I would be too though!

Cooper
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:18 AM
I have to admit, that teaser clip made me sign up again so I could watch the entire session. Well worth every penny, IMHO.

What a great instructor she must be, very clear in her explanations, and she had some great tidbits in there.

Oh, and the icing on the cake was watching Hubertus Schmidt school Furst Fabio. wow, just, wow.

Sabine
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:39 AM
Nice horse, looks fun to ride. I like her, legs were a bit busy but not to the detriment of the horses rhythm by the looks of things. She was puffing a lot!! I'm sure I would be too though!

I agree- have you ever ridden with one of those thingies on your head and tried to talk at the same time- wow- how hard is that...
I mostly liked her core being stable yet soft and very swingy- she rode the most out of this horse- while speaking into the mike...

DAlfan- this is a first for us- on agreeing!! Let's briefly pause and remember the moment...LOL!
(in good jest...)

kansasgal
Jan. 18, 2007, 01:37 AM
Ahhh, I think I'd like to go back and count how many times she uses the word
"simple" or "simply" in those 3 short minutes.
(Actually she only uses it twice, but implies it a WHOLE lot.) Ha, she makes it look SO easy..... just like when I watch the Olympic level skaters on tv.....

Where are the great, steady lunge horses and the patient instructors who will help us develop/ improve the all important seat?
Certainly not in my area..... for any amount of money.....
Dressage is deceptively simple, but complicated..... and yes, I felt out of breath just WATCHING her ride "to the bridle" for that short amount of time.


Thanks for posting!

Sabine
Jan. 18, 2007, 01:52 AM
Ahhh, I think I'd like to go back and count how many times she uses the word
"simple" or "simply" in those 3 short minutes.
(Actually she only uses it twice, but implies it a WHOLE lot.) Ha, she makes it look SO easy..... just like when I watch the Olympic level skaters on tv.....

Where are the great, steady lunge horses and the patient instructors who will help us develop/ improve the all important seat?
Certainly not in my area..... for any amount of money.....
Dressage is deceptively simple, but complicated..... and yes, I felt out of breath just WATCHING her ride "to the bridle" for that short amount of time.


Thanks for posting!

don't feel bad- go work out- get to the gym, run a mile a day- get a big exercise ball and work out on it- learn to do the split without gasping- just do it...IT IS DOABLE! it just takes a huge amount of committment...but it's not out of reach... and I promise you- when you get there- you will LOVE your body... so don't despair- work on it!!

and I mean this as genuine as I could possible say it!!

kansasgal
Jan. 18, 2007, 02:12 AM
I think I could possibly get there one day. I am a serious horseperson.
But right now, I KNOW I have too much on my plate, so have opted to stick with riding my "pet quality" horse at the little boarding stable down the road, and trying to take care of myself for the future. What I do right now best fits the description of "Whoa-ga"/
centered riding.

Thanks and best wishes.

Sabine
Jan. 18, 2007, 02:27 AM
I think I could possibly get there one day. I am a serious horseperson.
But right now, I KNOW I have too much on my plate, so have opted to stick with riding my "pet quality" horse at the little boarding stable down the road, and trying to take care of myself for the future. What I do right now best fits the description of "Whoa-ga"/
centered riding.

Thanks and best wishes.


You will if you really want it! The sky is the limit...and good for you to know what works for now...

lark_b
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:03 AM
I made myself a little wheezy in the same way that she was wheezy (made me wonder if she wasn't a tad bit asthmatic, like me) last night. I was not satisfied with the activity I was getting behind and I felt like my leg being too loose was making the whole thing worse so I shortened my stirrups a hole (wah, my knee is over the flap) and really rode boldly forward where no man or woman has ever gone on this horse before. :) I checked our tracks after I got off and I saw progress. I think I now know what the new standard is--if it doesn't make me wheezy to ride it, it's not forward enough!

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:48 AM
Very nice, if I had lesson with her I can tell I'd have some good laughs.:)

Lizv
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:33 AM
I had the chance to clinic with Catherine Haddad last September. It was a great experience. The highlight for me was being told what a great job I am doing with my horse - coming from such a talented rider and trainer it was the ultimate compliment.
I think we should expect great things from Ms. Haddad in the future - maybe we'll see her at the world cup in April?

Equus34
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:52 AM
The "busy leg" movements mentioned by those who saw the video are very normal. When you can relax your body and allow your seat to not only follow the movement of the horse but use the seat to adjust the tempo (from working trot to slow trot) the riders leg movement is because she is "not" gripping with her leg, but allowing her leg to move with the rhythm of the horse allowing the hip, knee and ankle to do their job of being the shock absorbers, as well as the low back. I thought she looked wonderful and did anyone notice how out of breath she was, while talking and riding? And some people think riding is easy, you just sit there and the horse does all the work:no:

MEP
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:53 AM
I think we should expect great things from Ms. Haddad in the future - maybe we'll see her at the world cup in April?

Wouldn't that be nice! Anybody been following the European qualifiers?

I also wish that they would offer the option of a per-time sign-up at that website.

And I also noticed the busy-ness of her leg. The explanations others have noted here make sense - big moving horse. But I'll tell you this, I'd give anything to be able to ride like that, busy leg and all. Beautiful picture. :yes:

Ash N Brenna
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:48 AM
The explanations make sense.

The first time I watched it, I had no audio. After watching it just now with the audio, it all makes a lot more sense.

Ash

merrygoround
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:05 AM
I agree that her legs appear to be slightly over done, and that even when she was not demonstrating the mobility the arms and hands can have w/o destroying the "frame" her hands were bouncy, the whole visual picture would have been improved by adding a helmet and netting the pony tail.

I did like the fact that she was puffing as she spoke. The message being-this is work!! It takes muscle coordination and timing, and work.

Asbestos outta the closet!! :)

monstrpony
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:31 AM
I have a friend who has a well developed seat, but her legs are short, and they often move like that when she's riding a big horse (she's short enough that they're almost all big). I think where the rider's leg hits on the horse has something to do with it; the tall men who can really wrap their legs around the horse will have a quieter leg. I think Debbie McDonald shows the same kind of movement with her leg. I don't think CH is that short, but this horse looks to have a big barrel for her leg; it lies along the side of the barrel, not wrapped around. If her knee reached down to the widest part of the barrel so that her calf could lay below that widest part, the motion would be less obvious.

Just a thought.

sabryant
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:48 AM
Hand and leg movement not a problem to me! I must say that chills went down my spine when she said now, I'm going to SLOW down for the collected movements. Collected movement is any and everything but SLOWING down. Why ride a seven years old PSG horse in the double for a schooling session.

Horsedances
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:03 AM
I posted this slow-motion video already on another thread, but if you watch this video very closely you see very clearly that the legs are hardly touching the horse. You can also see that from halt to trot there is only an aid with the seat, No legs. And take in consideration that this horse is a timebomb.

Please download this video to you own computer and play it from there.

www.danceofcolors.com/SlowmoB.wmv (http://www.danceofcolors.com/SlowmoB.wmv)

Enjoy,

Theo

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:07 AM
I know some of your are complaining that she is "over moving" but she is on a big mover and she is absorbing the motion. You dont sit rigid still in the saddle. She is not doing collective gaits either, those are more working gaits in the beginning. Collective gaits are easier to control the leg, IMO.
The rider is very effective, not nagging her horse with the spurs and as Theo shows, not even touching her horse.
Very nice ride, nice soft seat and hand with a controling body position without becoming stiff.

kkj
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=kansasgal
Where are the great, steady lunge horses and the patient instructors who will help us develop/ improve the all important seat?
Certainly not in my area..... for any amount of money.....
Dressage is deceptively simple, but complicated..... and yes, I felt out of breath just WATCHING her ride "to the bridle" for that short amount of time.
[/QUOTE]


I don't know where those people are in Kansas, but maybe it would be worth it for you GMO to bring out someone really good at the seat stuff like Erica Posely www.gotseat.com. It is well worth the investment.

I also second Sabine advice about working out. I do pilates, kick boxing, running and yoga. It is a lot of work and a big commitment but so worth it. It has made a huge difference in my seat and core strength. I have little kids too but an hour at the gym daycare won't kill them.

As for Catherine Haddad, I think she is a wonderful rider. Her legs don't bother me at all.

Horsedances
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:55 AM
Sorry but I forgot to add that this slowmo is not from Catherine Haddad, but from my sister Inge Fokker riding our Junior offspring. I just wanted to show that from the front you can see that the legs are not touching the horse, while from the side-view it looks like they do.

Mea Culpa

Theo



I posted this slow-motion video already on another thread, but if you watch this video very closely you see very clearly that the legs are hardly touching the horse. You can also see that from halt to trot there is only an aid with the seat, No legs. And take in consideration that this horse is a timebomb.

Please download this video to you own computer and play it from there.

www.danceofcolors.com/SlowmoB.wmv (http://www.danceofcolors.com/SlowmoB.wmv)

Enjoy,

Theo

Elegante E
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:59 AM
You can tell she is controlling her leg by watching the difference between when she is just sitting and the horse is going forward, and when she puts her leg on to ask for more forward. And as others have said, she never touches the horse with her spur unless it's intentional.

That horse is some mover. Amazing that she can talk AND ride him at the same time. Shoot, when I have my older horse in a good working trot, it's hard to keep my leg steady while posting as his whole body is working. I think for some if they've never sat on a horse with strong impulsion, they really have no clue how hard it is to ride in the working trot. Shoot, my guy's extended trot is easier to sit than his working trot.

I agree to that where one's leg hits the horse, affects how quiet it looks.

Very cool vid.

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:32 PM
I'm going to SLOW down for the collected movements. Collected movement is any and everything but SLOWING down.

I think she meant that she would slow down her "seat".

Also, you can clearly see in both vids (theo's & CH), especially from the head-on and behind shots, how the lower legs come "out and in" in time with the horses movement. And the heels and spurs play no part at all. Correctly absorbed, imho.

Dutch Girl
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:38 PM
I joined just so I could see the rest of this video. It was super informative and she was a joy to watch and listen to. Now I am off to watch more videos :)

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:54 PM
2 video's in both the leg is flopping a bit but because of different reasons.

video 1 horse and rider are relaxed and in harmony
video 2 the rider is tense in the upper body transferring the tension to the leg.

Briggsie
Jan. 18, 2007, 01:02 PM
Okay, her leg might be busy, but she is still sitting the trot, at least her seat looks still....and she is managing to keep him forward

citydog
Jan. 18, 2007, 01:11 PM
Thanks to the OP for posting--that's a really neat site.


What I do right now best fits the description of "Whoa-ga"/
centered riding.



Just to nitpick: Centered Riding isn't a discipline or limited to certtain levels--it's applicable to all. :yes: It's another approach to achieving sound biomechanics.

Now "whoa-ga" I have to go Google! :lol:

indyblue
Jan. 18, 2007, 01:41 PM
Does anyone know if there is a video of her riding in competition that we can see?
I must admit that I do find her busy legs distracting but I love the way the horse is going.

Horsedances
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:13 PM
2 video's in both the leg is flopping a bit but because of different reasons.

video 1 horse and rider are relaxed and in harmony
video 2 the rider is tense in the upper body transferring the tension to the leg.

DutchMike, thanks for being here,

Many American dressage enthousiasts and riders think that all Dutch people know how to ride dressage.
But now they know that it is not all Dutch people.

Please stay on board :D

Theo

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:18 PM
DutchMike, thanks for being here,

Many American dressage enthousiasts and riders think that all Dutch people know how to ride dressage.
But now they know that it is not all Dutch people.

Please stay on board :D

Theo

so you are telling me that your cousin or whatever is not tense in the shoulders , elbows ?.She is very tense and is grabbing with her upper legs. If you think you can compare the 2 video's as the same quality riders then you need to visit pearl vision ;)

You like to critisise other people but are not to good in taking critisism
not to my suprise:D

postit
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:24 PM
.

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:28 PM
so you are telling me that your cousin or whatever is not tense in the shoulders , elbows ?.She is very tense and is grabbing with her upper legs. If you think you can compare the 2 video's as the same quality riders then you need to visit pearl vision ;)

You like to critisise other people but are not to good in taking critisism
not to my suprise:D


ouch

P.R.E.
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:46 PM
so you are telling me that your cousin or whatever is not tense in the shoulders , elbows ?.She is very tense and is grabbing with her upper legs. If you think you can compare the 2 video's as the same quality riders then you need to visit pearl vision ;)

You like to critisise other people but are not to good in taking critisism
not to my suprise:D

Sounds like a fair comment to me. :yes: :yes: :yes:

grad123
Jan. 18, 2007, 03:54 PM
ee

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 04:14 PM
Why does everyone have to be negative in comments? Cant anyone discuss something without becoming negative and nasty?
I got Theo's sarcasm that set DutchMike off, but...... really..........
enough!

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 04:17 PM
so you are telling me that your cousin or whatever is not tense in the shoulders , elbows ?.She is very tense and is grabbing with her upper legs. If you think you can compare the 2 video's as the same quality riders then you need to visit pearl vision

Looking at the slo-mo vid again, I do see some rigidity in her arms, more of a clamping them to her sides. However, I don't see that translating to the legs; she has a lovely seat and it seems a soft connection. Both horses look happy and relaxed regardless of the "slight" faults. IMHO, of course

ridgeback
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:38 PM
I'm a friend of Catherine's so I asked/told her what some were saying about her leg and this is her response.

"My leg is a disaster in that video, tee hee! Can't "lecture", ride, breathe and avoid the cat at the same time. Wish everyone could see the whole video though. I don't usually reveal so many secrets in one session!"

lizathenag
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:43 PM
<<a natural frame is carried by the horse, not the rider>>

indyblue
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:44 PM
Good lord.For once I was right.

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:47 PM
<<a natural frame is carried by the horse, not the rider>>


*LaNet gets on her knees and bows to this comment!*

kkj
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:55 PM
Yeah Theo's sister sucks. People like that have no business doing dressage. She rides like a sack of potatoes and her horse is not cut out for dressage.

No seriously Dutch Mike I know you and Theo have a history, and I guess it must be clouding your vision. However, I think you should keep your attacks for Theo and leave his sister, who is a beautiful rider alone.

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 05:58 PM
Now, I had not planned on having to collect "tickets" (as in TRAIN), for this thread.:lol:

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
Yeah Theo's sister sucks. People like that have no business doing dressage. She rides like a sack of potatoes and her horse is not cut out for dressage.

No seriously Dutch Mike I know you and Theo have a history, and I guess it must be clouding your vision. However, I think you should keep your attacks for Theo and leave his sister, who is a beautiful rider alone.

They know each other????
Is Theo a CRer?:lol:

P.R.E.
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
Yeah Theo's sister sucks. People like that have no business doing dressage. She rides like a sack of potatoes and her horse is not cut out for dressage.

No seriously Dutch Mike I know you and Theo have a history, and I guess it must be clouding your vision. However, I think you should keep your attacks for Theo and leave his sister, who is a beautiful rider alone.

Dutch Mike was not attacking anyone. Theo posted a video in a forum where people are making comments about riders and Dutch Mike gave his opinion. That you don't agree with DM, doesn't mean he was attacking someone, it only means that you have a different point of view regarding that particular rider.

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
ridgeback; Even though some commented on "busy" legs, many thought it was no big deal. Tell CH for us what a lovely rider/horsewoman she is and we are hoping for VERY BIG things in the future from her (Olympics!!)

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:03 PM
Wherever Mike goes a train wreck follows! :lol: :lol:

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by kkj
Yeah Theo's sister sucks. People like that have no business doing dressage. She rides like a sack of potatoes and her horse is not cut out for dressage.

No seriously Dutch Mike I know you and Theo have a history, and I guess it must be clouding your vision. However, I think you should keep your attacks for Theo and leave his sister, who is a beautiful rider alone.

What PRE said.

Also, if memory serves, wasn't it THEO who started a thread regarding thin-skinned americans who didn't like certain critiques?

memory - And, wasn't it THEO who suggested to another poster :cool: to attend classes in handling critiques from others?

And, and wasn't it THEO who reinforced the idea that if you put vid/pics on public forums, gotta take what you get?

I think my memory serves me quite well in this instance.:winkgrin: :lol: :lol:

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:17 PM
What PRE said.

Also, if memory serves, wasn't it THEO who started a thread regarding thin-skinned americans who didn't like certain critiques?

memory - And, wasn't it THEO who suggested to another poster :cool: to attend classes in handling critiques from others?

And, and wasn't it THEO who reinforced the idea that if you put vid/pics on public forums, gotta take what you get?

I think my memory serves me quite well in this instance.:winkgrin: :lol: :lol:


:lol:

P.R.E.
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:20 PM
What PRE said.

Also, if memory serves, wasn't it THEO who started a thread regarding thin-skinned americans who didn't like certain critiques?

memory - And, wasn't it THEO who suggested to another poster :cool: to attend classes in handling critiques from others?

And, and wasn't it THEO who reinforced the idea that if you put vid/pics on public forums, gotta take what you get?

I think my memory serves me quite well in this instance.:winkgrin: :lol: :lol:

After a very exhaustive research of the public posts in this forum, I have no other option but to agree with you statement, that your memory serves you well. It does indeed. :lol: :yes: :yes: :lol:

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:23 PM
Just having a little "fun" folks.

Seriously, I think both riders are very talented and quite lovely. With happy horses. And that is very important!

ridgeback
Jan. 18, 2007, 06:42 PM
<<ridgeback; Even though some commented on "busy" legs, many thought it was no big deal. Tell CH for us what a lovely rider/horsewoman she is and we are hoping for VERY BIG things in the future from her (Olympics!!)
__________________
http://community.webshots.com/user/Dalfan15>>


I sure will!!! There will be more videos of her riding two up and coming GP horses and teaching one of her riders(casey) on her own horse. ( the one you watched in the video everyone is talking about on this thread is Casey's horse) I think you will be able to see those on www.dressagetrainingonline.com but I think the site is being updated right now. I'm sure it's one you have to join but I know the two horses she's riding and they are great!

Horsedances
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:02 PM
Coming soon to this COTH theater a videoclip from DutchMike riding his horse !:lol:

Theo

Coreene
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:05 PM
This thread is a great reminder for me to add a few more people to my ignore list.

Theo, love the horse! :cool: Wendy has a show record that most people would give their right arm for, good for her! The horse is stunning!

specialops
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:10 PM
I cliniced with Catherine this past September and got a lot out of it...both my ride and auditing. I recommend either or both to anyone. CH was very well spoken and her comments flowed freely (no long pauses, etc). You are given a clear direction and she has lots to offer in terms of dressage information and training. All of the rides I watched gave me new pieces to the puzzle.

I would not be comfortable commenting on the video other than to say that to provide training comments and ride at the same time must be difficult, but she did a great job. The horse she was riding seemed to be quite the mover and I would guess with all the things going on at the same time, something minor like her leg movement could be considered all part of the focus on multiple activities and or the movement. To me, not worth mentioning. I just know that a seat like that is something worth aspiring to.

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
Dutch Mike was not attacking anyone. Theo posted a video in a forum where people are making comments about riders and Dutch Mike gave his opinion. That you don't agree with DM, doesn't mean he was attacking someone, it only means that you have a different point of view regarding that particular rider.

EXACTLY:D

It amazing how some people luv to say to some people that their horse is at A and their butt at C but get all offended when they get a bit of the truth about a sister, cousin ,whatever. I personally don't like riders than hunch their shoulders and stiffen in the shoulder must be some of the military type of training I had back in the days in portugal.

Anyway I will stop with this topic unlike another dutch person on this board I don't always need the last word

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:03 PM
Coming soon to this COTH theater a videoclip from DutchMike riding his horse !:lol:

Theo

Or just maybe of a composition I put together for the pope when doing his freestyle. :cool:.
Maybe I should start a thread on why do dutch lack rhytm music wise or maybe it is a good idea for a reality show. Equine Idols lmao

Horsedances
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:15 PM
This thread is a great reminder for me to add a few more people to my ignore list.

Theo, love the horse! :cool: Wendy has a show record that most people would give their right arm for, good for her! The horse is stunning!

Thanks Coreene, I know this kind of people, and I even don't go through all the trouble to put them under my ignore button. They come and go, and like my biggest friend in the USA always say "these people wouldn't recognise a good ride, a good horse or a good rider, even when they fall over them" .

The next videos will be posted only for a selected group of viewers, and not for the sharks which swim around this board searching for blood.

Theo

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:27 PM
Theo ,
I have been away from holland to long to remember the saying.

Een likje van je eigen deeg or something like that. I had no reason to give my opinion the way I did but neither do you in some of your comments. Atleast if you look for blood expect that someone will look for yours that is all. If you look anywhere you might actually see that I never critisise anyone in a negative way but you have been asking for someone to put you in your place as you come over as a real mister know all. Modesty is a gift ,arogance is not;)

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:37 PM
Thanks Coreene, I know this kind of people, and I even don't go through all the trouble to put them under my ignore button. They come and go, and like my biggest friend in the USA always say "these people wouldn't recognise a good ride, a good horse or a good rider, even when they fall over them" .

The next videos will be posted only for a selected group of viewers, and not for the sharks which swim around this board searching for blood.

Theo

Wow Theo, you are a total bitch arent ya!!!
Maybe you should take your own advice on how to take comments! :lol: Or...... go back to the other board where you fit in better!!

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 08:43 PM
Dutch Mike was not attacking anyone. Theo posted a video in a forum where people are making comments about riders and Dutch Mike gave his opinion. That you don't agree with DM, doesn't mean he was attacking someone, it only means that you have a different point of view regarding that particular rider.


But obviously if you dont agree with Theo, then your wrong and a stupid american that cant recongize a good ride.... blah, blah, blah! :rolleyes: I guess thats cuz Americans cant ride at all! :confused:

Horsecrazy27
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:17 PM
I really enjoyed the video and the "leg" thing going on, she just seems really really relaxed to me, focusing on teaching and elaborating than what her legs are doing. The horse really looks great---seems like it is working.

But, I can't judge anyone right now because I have been doing more trails than arena work for the last couple years. I agreed with what she was talking about.....and was I focussing mostly on the horse (which is what I do when watching dressage anyway----unless the rider is terrible distracting).....I didn't feel this was the case here.

I enjoyed the video and it inspires me to get my mare Eternity and get busy!

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:21 PM
I enjoyed the video and it inspires me to get my mare Eternity and get busy!


It would be a waste if you were not to! That mare is lovely! :D

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 09:56 PM
The next videos will be posted only for a selected group of viewers,

Where's that sucking-up icon when you need one? Or possibly the brown-nosed doohickey:lol: Gotta tell ya - you can dish it out, but you can't take it worth a damn.


Or...... go back to the other board where you fit in better!!

I thought he was banned from the "other" board.

STF
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:01 PM
My internet mom has yanked my chain and I cant comment anyone! Ive been muzzled!

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:19 PM
My internet mom has yanked my chain and I cant comment anyone! Ive been muzzled!

Wow atleast someone has the power:D . I thought I'd never see the day roflmao

YoungFilly
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:38 PM
Wherever Mike goes a train wreck follows! :lol: :lol:

Seemingly true. :) DutchMike, I really like you when Theo is not around. I think you two are oil and vinigar. That means, you two don't get along.


Ingee Fooker has competed against many big names, such as Anky. I have not looked in a long time, so I am not even sure her competition results are online anymore.

Last time I looked, and it was a few year ago she was pulling in scores right behind anky on her horse, so I wouldn't diss her.

PS, if you didn't read the LM thread, then you might not realize they ALL can read the stuff your posting about them.

P.R.E.
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:53 PM
Seemingly true. :) Ingee Fooker has competed against many big names, such as Anky. I have not looked in a long time, so I am not even sure her competition results are online anymore.

Last time I looked, and it was a few year ago she was pulling in scores right behind anky on her horse, so I wouldn't diss her.


What you say is right, but is not in opposition to what DutchMike said. I don't think he said that these particualr rider was the worst rider in the World. He just made a valid comment about her riding. We should remember that doesn't matter how good of a rider you are, there is not such thing as perfection, we all at every level keep making mistakes and we have to try to improve every day.
If this rider was competing against Anky, doesn't mean that she or Anky have achieved perfection. Sometime when you get videotaped you might be having a bad day, it can happen. As an exmple, look an athlete like Tiger Woods, twice in his short career, when he has reached the top he has decided to re-build his swing, because he knew that he can do it better. My point, being a top of the charts athlete, being an Anky or someone else, is not synonimous of perfection and comments can be made about their riding.

Mike made a comment, that if done to someone that Horsedances would have been already critisizing, this discussion would not be happening. I don't think his comments were offensive or anything that deserve such anymosity, the problem si that some people ldon't like when other disagree with them and they answer with the personal cheap shot.

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 10:57 PM
I just dislike the tipical god almighty we are the best dutch mentallity. Ok the dutch do well in international competitions etc. However that doesn't give us the right to belittle other nations. In that aspect it sometimes makes me being ashamed of being dutch, we are a small nation and yet have lots of people with a big mouth that ride on the modest people that actually do something positive for Holland.

So it is nothing against Theo as I don't know him but it is against people with his type of mentallity or atleast the impression he gives me ,of wich there are way to many in Holland. Hard on the draw to critisise others but god forebid if the critisism is against anyone they like

YoungFilly
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:13 PM
I just dislike the tipical god almighty we are the best dutch mentallity. Ok the dutch do well in international competitions etc. However that doesn't give us the right to belittle other nations. In that aspect it sometimes makes me being ashamed of being dutch, we are a small nation and yet have lots of people with a big mouth that ride on the modest people that actually do something positive for Holland.

So it is nothing against Theo as I don't know him but it is against people with his type of mentallity or atleast the impression he gives me ,of wich there are way to many in Holland. Hard on the draw to critisise others but god forebid if the critisism is against anyone they like

Your one of the smallest beautifulest nations on the planet! Don't you see what your country has done (not just dressage)? Hello?

You have been upsurped by one country, and we know who they are.

There is a huge difference on how countries deal with dressage.

Believe it or not, in one trip, to Wyoming!!!!! I met up with a Dutch guy, and a German guy, I am so serious.

I asked them both "Do you know who Ulla Salsberger is?" and "Do you know who Anky Van Grunven is?"

Both, Both, knew who their national champion was. That tells me that both countries are more aware of dressage than the US. I could ask 100000 people in the US "Do you know who Debbie McDonald is?" and they would look blank.

P.R.E.
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:39 PM
Both, Both, knew who their national champion was. That tells me that both countries are more aware of dressage than the US. I could ask 100000 people in the US "Do you know who Debbie McDonald is?" and they would look blank.

I am a little confused, is this something bad? honest question.

Dalfan
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:44 PM
YF - comparing apples to oranges. Cultures are very different, as well as population and size of country. Riding/horses really is a staple of childhood and beyond over there.

dutchmike
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:49 PM
Both, Both, knew who their national champion was. That tells me that both countries are more aware of dressage than the US. I could ask 100000 people in the US "Do you know who Debbie McDonald is?" and they would look blank.

Ok but that is because dressage is the basis in germany and holland but in the U.S ,hunters seems to be the basis so you cannot compare that. Apart from the fact that holland has 15 million people living almost on each other lip and the U.S 300 million with so much space it is almost hard to know how your next door neighbour is doing lol.

YoungFilly
Jan. 18, 2007, 11:57 PM
Getting back to the origional program...

There is a serious, serious issue at the very beginning of the video. The pay for view video.

I have had quite a few BNT's in my life that would totally disagree. But I do remember Ulla saying a few years ago that she would do this instead of a martingale.


I don't know, maybe I am just a newbie.... But this is a big nono from everyone else.

OnyxThePony
Jan. 19, 2007, 12:00 AM
Getting back to the origional program...

There is a serious, serious issue at the very beginning of the video. The pay for view video.

I have had quite a few BNT's in my life that would totally disagree. But I do remember Ulla saying a few years ago that she would do this instead of a martingale.


I don't know, maybe I am just a newbie.... But this is a big nono from everyone else.

I got lost in the Dutch shuffle..and can't replay the vid right now.. what is a no-no??

BTW, that rider is truely wonderful and inspiring!!! My ride today was the better for having seen that TWO minutes of footage!!!

Horsedances
Jan. 19, 2007, 12:30 AM
Mother

Hoogste dagscore voor Inge Fokker en O'Benjamin
(8.00u) 13 juni - In drie groepen werd er ZZ-Licht gereden tijdens de nationale dressuurwedstrijd in Uden. Er waren een aantal zeer goeden combinaties te bewonderen. Inge Fokker was de absolute uitschieter van de dag. Zij scoorde met O'Benjamin in haar tweede proef maar liefst 70,97%. Ook de zege van Jorge Domingo met Prestige mocht er zijn. Hij liet bijna 69% noteren:

and Daughter

http://www.pkinternational.nl/en/wendy.php





Seemingly true. :) DutchMike, I really like you when Theo is not around. I think you two are oil and vinigar. That means, you two don't get along.


Ingee Fooker has competed against many big names, such as Anky. I have not looked in a long time, so I am not even sure her competition results are online anymore.

Last time I looked, and it was a few year ago she was pulling in scores right behind anky on her horse, so I wouldn't diss her.

PS, if you didn't read the LM thread, then you might not realize they ALL can read the stuff your posting about them.

Reiterin
Jan. 19, 2007, 12:40 AM
Getting back to the origional program...

There is a serious, serious issue at the very beginning of the video. The pay for view video.

I have had quite a few BNT's in my life that would totally disagree. But I do remember Ulla saying a few years ago that she would do this instead of a martingale.


I don't know, maybe I am just a newbie.... But this is a big nono from everyone else.

Okay, coupple questions....
1. What is BNT? :confused:

2. I pay for the dressageclinic.com vids and had watched this start to finish... what's the serious issue at the beginning? She thoroughly explains her use of the double and why she starts it earlier than most- the fact that she follows Schultheis etc. What does that have to do with a martingale?

silvia
Jan. 19, 2007, 02:42 AM
Thank you for posting the link, I really enjoyed watching and listening to the ride :) Her horse seems very happy and they are the best barometer of how their rider is doing.

Rusty Stirrup
Jan. 19, 2007, 06:55 AM
Some riders absorb the concussion of the trot with a bobbing head, some with feet that wiggle, still others with a spine that seems to curve and uncurve. And of course there are those who don't displace this movement at all and bounce up and down on the horse's back. A lot depends on the horse's movement, the rider's suppliness and relaxation, and yes, of course, their skill level. As we all know when one is multi-tasking something usually has to suffer and what is riding if not multi-tasking? That's why it's not easy! I always enjoy the videos posted here and learn something from every one I watch. The people on them "walk the walk" and put it out there. Critiquing is fun and very human but it has to be constructive or it's just bashing. Also very human.

Edited to add: Reiterin, BNT-Big Name Trainer

magdelene
Jan. 19, 2007, 07:19 AM
I see the whole video on the website. Catherine Haddad will teach for us in Stinstedt near Bremen in two weeks. I am very glad. She tells more on the video than our German trainers tell in one year. We do not find many more students from our great master Willi Schultheis. She learned much from him.
I watched her ride many times in competitions here. Good hands, nice seat. Slowly the judges will bring her up.

snoopy
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:18 AM
Some riders absorb the concussion of the trot with a bobbing head, some with feet that wiggle, still others with a spine that seems to curve and uncurve. And of course there are those who don't displace this movement at all and bounce up and down on the horse's back. A lot depends on the horse's movement, the rider's suppliness and relaxation, and yes, of course, their skill level. As we all know when one is multi-tasking something usually has to suffer and what is riding if not multi-tasking? That's why it's not easy! I always enjoy the videos posted here and learn something from every one I watch. The people on them "walk the walk" and put it out there. Critiquing is fun and very human but it has to be constructive or it's just bashing. Also very human.

Edited to add: Reiterin, BNT-Big Name Trainer


Very well put..everyone has their own style and everyone copes/counters movement in different ways. Because someone may do it differently or does not present the picture that you would like to see does not mean it is wrong.

XHalt
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:42 AM
Getting back to the origional program...

There is a serious, serious issue at the very beginning of the video. The pay for view video.

I have had quite a few BNT's in my life that would totally disagree. But I do remember Ulla saying a few years ago that she would do this instead of a martingale.


I don't know, maybe I am just a newbie.... But this is a big nono from everyone else.


I just watched and thought she was very interesting, definitely opinionated. I'm guessing you are referring to her use of the double. She seems to follow very closely the Schultheis method. You see it in many things that she does. It's one of those things that for the majority of riders it's a big no-no but in the right hands can be effective.

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:16 AM
Because someone may do it differently or does not present the picture that you would like to see does not mean it is wrong.

Sorry, have to disagree. Head bobbing is a big no-no. If your head is "bobbing" in the sit trot, that means you are absorbing the movement incorrectly. All these faults means that SOMETHING is not quite right in your way of sitting, and they will be apparent. Hey, but who's perfect.

ridgeback
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:21 AM
I'm confused as I was a hunter/jumper rider but aren't PSG horses shown in a double bridle? This horse is doing extremely well and winning awards in PSG would it stand to reason the horse would be being schooled to move up the levels and you wouldn't do that in a snaffle??? thanks

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:31 AM
Wow! I LOVED what she was saying! She is SO right. I am dying to see the rest of the video, and a LOT more from her. Does she have videos for sale?

ridgeback
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:37 AM
http://www.dressagetrainingonline.com/

Catherine is riding an up and coming GP horse in this video

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:47 AM
Cool!! Thanks for posting that ridgeback!

Dutch Girl
Jan. 19, 2007, 11:39 AM
I'm a friend of Catherine's so I asked/told her what some were saying about her leg and this is her response.

"My leg is a disaster in that video, tee hee! Can't "lecture", ride, breathe and avoid the cat at the same time. Wish everyone could see the whole video though. I don't usually reveal so many secrets in one session!"

Well please let her know that what she revealed was truely appreciated. I subscribed just to see the whole video and it was very helpful and inspirational to me. I will be keeping my eyes open for clinics with her.

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 03:16 PM
Hey ridgeback, could you ask her another question if you are talking to her. Ask her to explain what she meant by bending the outside "knee" to collect the canter (in addition to the seat). I have an idea what she means but I'd like to hear her explanation. Does she just mean to put the calf back to guard the quarters and maintain the bend around the inside leg? It's just a different way of stating this? I've never heard it staed this way.

I can't sign up for dressage clinic because I am on dial up. This is from the other vid which I was able to load the 2 min sample eventually...:cry:

PM if you would rather. I can't believe people are critcizing her riding here. Good grief.

kkj
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:00 PM
Dutch Mike was not attacking anyone. Theo posted a video in a forum where people are making comments about riders and Dutch Mike gave his opinion. That you don't agree with DM, doesn't mean he was attacking someone, it only means that you have a different point of view regarding that particular rider.

Well no I disagree with that. Dutch Mike has a lot of history arguing with Theo and I don't think his criticism was impersonal. I think it was a personal attack with an agenda, namely because she is Theo's sister. I don't see him coming on here and ripping on the very-unfit, chair-seated, passengers who only ride at 40% on a good day. I have no doubt that his personal disdain for Theo totally colored his view of the rider.

Moreover, I think it is totally fine to give an honest criticism of anyone who posts a video, that comes with the territory. I do think the average American is a bit too thin-skinned. I think if some random person were to come on and say that Theo's sister is stiff and whatever, well I might honor their opinion. However because it came from DM, I just thought it was a silly attack and very likely not even truly how he feels about this rider.

That's my opinion and as usual I am not shy in sharing it.

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:18 PM
I have alot of history with Theo?. The only time I talked to Theo is when he was saying that americans stink at dressage I never talked to him before that so where is the history?. However youre point about me never critising anyone about their position on a bb is true. I critisised this time because Theo needs a reality check and noone is perfect.The video 1 rider in my eyes is from a total different planet then the rider of video 2. Theo 's sister is not a bad rider and I didn't say that but not as nice as the rider of the first video. After reseeing the video I still say she is stiff and hunched in the shoulders and rigid in the elbows . It is a fact that good position etc is getting less and less important in todays dressage though it is a shame but a fact. The time of riders like Klimke that looked elegant whenever they rode is spreading thin in todays competetions.

Anyway this is enough about this I made my point and it is time to go on and hopefully Theo atleast thinks twice before slagging down other riders. It is easy to slag down but much harder to give constructive critisism

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:20 PM
Well no I disagree with that. Dutch Mike has a lot of history arguing with Theo and I don't think his criticism was impersonal. I think it was a personal attack with an agenda, namely because she is Theo's sister. I don't see him coming on here and ripping on the very-unfit, chair-seated, passengers who only ride at 40% on a good day. I have no doubt that his personal disdain for Theo totally colored his view of the rider.

Moreover, I think it is totally fine to give an honest criticism of anyone who posts a video, that comes with the territory. I do think the average American is a bit too thin-skinned. I think if some random person were to come on and say that Theo's sister is stiff and whatever, well I might honor their opinion. However because it came from DM, I just thought it was a silly attack and very likely not even truly how he feels about this rider.


yes. That's my take on it as well. Theo's sister was trashed because DM does not like Theo. Period. Just because Theo is a little arrogant (haha) should not mean open season on his relatives.

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:25 PM
Im trying to figure out the history of Mike and Theo? Mike hardly hangs out here on this BB? Unless its on another BB and there is only one that would be, which is not even worth talking about (and im not talking about UDBB!)
Theo is totally banned from there anyway.
So, Im confused on a history.........?!??!?

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:31 PM
Im trying to figure out the history of Mike and Theo? Mike hardly hangs out here on this BB? Unless its on another BB and there is only one that would be, which is not even worth talking about (and im not talking about UDBB!)
Theo is totally banned from there anyway.
So, Im confused on a history.........?!??!?

I don't know Theo. There is no history. Theo is married and I presume straight. I am straight and married aswell so it can't a former relationship either :D .(thank god Theo is not a woman or otherwise that would be a new rumour I guess)

Please return to the original topic :mad:

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:35 PM
Please return to the original topic :mad:

control freak much? Would you be trashing the vid of T's sister if she was a random poster here asking for a critique? No.

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:40 PM
control freak much? Would you be trashing the vid of T's sister if she was a random poster here asking for a critique? No.

Egon, I was the one who brought the video to Mike attention as I love the way Catherine rides the horse and that is what I want to see in the training of my horses. So........ that was the connection with Mike here.

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:42 PM
control freak much? Would you be trashing the vid of T's sister if she was a random poster here asking for a critique? No.

Constructive critique yes. Bashing her no wich by the way I didn't do now either.Although I might have said it slightly different. Ofcourse I could give a sarcastic comment like the one I read not to long ago about the head of the horse being at A and the tail at C but I will not lower myself to that level;) I only go that low on one bb and on none of the others;) ;)

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:45 PM
Or dont stoop to the lower levels, that would be the best bet!

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 04:49 PM
Or dont stoop to the lower levels, that would be the best bet!

Put your muzzle back on:D

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:04 PM
Although I might have said it slightly different. Ofcourse I could give a sarcastic comment like the one I read not to long ago about the head of the horse being at A and the tail at C but I will not lower myself to that level;) I only go that low on one bb and on none of the others

Oh , so it's revenge, then. If you want people to respect your opinion, avoid the petty vengeful critique.

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:11 PM
if it was revenge I would have made a real sarcastic comment. trust me

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:33 PM
If the critique DM gave was revenge, then Im really, really confused.
Egon, I think your misunderstanding a lot of things, or either feeding off some other BB for your "information"......

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:36 PM
Would you be trashing the vid of T's sister if she was a random poster here asking for a critique? No

"Trashing" the vid is a slight exageration, don't you think? He said her arms looked somewhat stiff, which is true. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. And remember, once it is displayed on a public forum, I guess it is fair game.:lol: Now, WHO said that?? My memory must be failing me. Oh well:lol: :lol:

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:49 PM
However youre point about me never critising anyone about their position on a bb is true. I critisised this time because Theo needs a reality check and noone is perfect.The video 1 rider in my eyes is from a total different planet then the rider of video 2

Well, so it was you who called it revenge (in other words) .

As I understand it, Theo was not making a comparison but showing the video to illustrate that a rider could have a breathing leg which was not the same as jabbing every stride. I thought he was being supportive of CH who was criticized here for so called busy legs. Since we are all allowed to express our opinions , I can express mine. I have yet to see a really talented rider come on the boards and tear down another rider. Think about that.

PS I have the OP on ignore so apologize if I missed something important. HAHA

bovon
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:52 PM
pass the popcorn please.. :lol:

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:53 PM
As I understand it, Theo was not making a comparison but showing the video to illustrate that a rider could have a breathing leg which was not the same as jabbing every stride. I thought he was being supportive of CH who was criticized here for so called busy legs. Since we are all allowed to express our opinions , I can express mine. I have yet to see a really talented rider come on the boards and tear down another rider. Think about that.

I would consider both riders' legs to be about the same. A breathing leg. CH was NOT "jabbing at every stride", so why put up his sister's vid? CH's "busy legs" (not my opinion) and sister vids stiff arms were no big deal, imho.

Like I said, we must watch out what we put up for public consumption, yes?

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 05:56 PM
PS I have the OP on ignore so apologize if I missed something important.

Why? Too much for you in the other thread, hmmm?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Although, I'm not sure I believe you. You don't strike me as the type.

Horsedances
Jan. 19, 2007, 06:57 PM
Can you please quote a posting (any posting) from me where I said that the Americans can't ride. I just stated that I saw on YourTube that the most USA-riders ride their horses in a long frame. And yes, I received the answers to my question (mostly via Email or PM). Furthermore I stated somewhere that when people post video's and "ask for critique" , I noticed that manyyyy people are always friendly and talk about "wooow what a beautifull horse", and never come to the point.

But even when I set this all aside, who is Dutchmike to act like the protector of all the posters on this board.

I listen to everybody advices and always take different opinions in consideration, but I like to know somebodies credentials, before I spend my time reading their opinions.

Theo

lorilu
Jan. 19, 2007, 07:09 PM
You know, a nice discussion of the OP video would be nice. This cr*p is why I rarely read this board any more. Gotta weed through the egos to find any information or learn anything. Too bad. There's alot of potential here, and so many of you have so much real good ideas to share. I don't think anyone cares, really, about this foolishness. It's like the afternoon soaps... I gave them up when I grew up.
Loretta

snoopy
Jan. 19, 2007, 07:18 PM
Sorry, have to disagree. Head bobbing is a big no-no. If your head is "bobbing" in the sit trot, that means you are absorbing the movement incorrectly. All these faults means that SOMETHING is not quite right in your way of sitting, and they will be apparent. Hey, but who's perfect.

I was under the impression that the head was connected to the neck/spine and since the horse under you is moving and your head is at the end of your spine/neck that movement would be apparent there. I have yet to see someone totally relaxed, moving with the horse, absorbing movement yet be still like a statue. It does not work that way. Who told you that head bobbing is a fault? And how was this described as a fault..for what reason? I do not reference Jack Hammer bobbing but mere movement.:) I honestly would like to know why movement in the rider's head and neck is concidered a no-no...and I am truely not asking to start a war...just seeking a plain and simple answer...thanks.

gabey
Jan. 19, 2007, 07:26 PM
You can see alot more of Catherine on dressagetrainingonline.com, she is a very talented rider offering alot in the way of learning.

gabey
Jan. 19, 2007, 07:38 PM
there is actually 3 videos of Catherine there.

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:05 PM
Theo, I don't know why you post on this BB, wouldn't you be more comfortable posting solely on Dutch or German BBs with people who are of your own high calibre? Are you here mainly to promote your business? What about dressage have you learned from this BB!!! Nothing!!! I recall DutchMike referring to you as a bigot, I never met a Dutch bigot before. You're quite disrespectul and your language is coarse and unpleasant. I really got a chill when I read your "Are you always that friendly" thread of Jan 11, 2007, the part about the bombs was really strange. I recall how graciously Shiaway apologized to you and how we all waited for your apology to her which was not to come. Is it because we are mainly women that you're so disrespectful? Well, something is bothering you and I don't know what, but you really have a genuine dislike of things American and it shows.

BTW Theo, what's with the name dropping? Seems more and more you mention your clients by name. Do you get their permission beforehand?

My horse's head is at A, his tail is at C, and my head is in the clouds. I never take anything serious:)

kkj
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:15 PM
I for one would be very sad if Theo stopped posting. His videos are one of the best things on this board and I enjoy his personality.

Both CH and Theo's sister in my mind are wonderful riders. They are both a joy to watch.

I don't want to scare any men off this board, including DutchMike who I sometimes don't agree with. For example, I think a lot of todays riders are more elegant and fabulous than the riders from yesteryear. I just think dressage keeps getting better and better.

Keep the videos and opinions coming. I don't put anyone on ignore.

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:22 PM
I was under the impression that the head was connected to the neck/spine and since the horse under you is moving and your head is at the end of your spine/neck that movement would be apparent there. I have yet to see someone totally relaxed, moving with the horse, absorbing movement yet be still like a statue. It does not work that way. Who told you that head bobbing is a fault? And how was this described as a fault..for what reason? I do not reference Jack Hammer bobbing but mere movement. I honestly would like to know why movement in the rider's head and neck is concidered a no-no...and I am truely not asking to start a war...just seeking a plain and simple answer...thanks

When sitting the trot, the seat (seatbones, hips,thighs,core) absorbs the movement of the horse. If it doesn't, if there is any locking of the joints or tension, that "movement" is passed on down the line to your extremities, be it arms, hands, feet or head.

Of course, no one is saying you can sit the trot as a statue, there will always be movement, but it is relative to the horse. Your whole body should be relaxed, therefore you will see "movement". When the core is engaged and in unison with the horse, all else will be "relatively" still.

Why do you think it is usually very easy to see when a rider is not sitting the trot very well? The "movement" comes out in the hands, feet, head, or an undulating belly. A strong core really is one of THE keys to riding well. In addition to absorbtion, it allows you to "carry" your own weight and maintain a correct alignment to stay in balance with the horse.

Not an easy skill to master. Look at riders like Klimke, Hubertus Schmidt.

DanniS
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:39 PM
I for one would be very sad if Theo stopped posting. His videos are one of the best things on this board and I enjoy his personality.

Both CH and Theo's sister in my mind are wonderful riders. They are both a joy to watch.

I don't want to scare any men off this board, including DutchMike who I sometimes don't agree with. For example, I think a lot of todays riders are more elegant and fabulous than the riders from yesteryear. I just think dressage keeps getting better and better.

Keep the videos and opinions coming. I don't put anyone on ignore.

Well said kkj:yes:

It seems to me that certain forumites are here specifically to cause an argument.
I personally get ALOT out of these forums which I wouldn't otherwise have access to.

I don't see a need for armchair judges to decapitate EVERY video put on here.
Can we not be civil and have a discussion without personal attacks?

I will NOT critique any video put up because although I consider myself an accomplished equestrian I do NOT consider myself in a position to judge.
These riders in the videos are getting out there and doing it, and for this reason I respect them. JMHO

egontoast
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:41 PM
Cheers Danni and kkj! Onward and upward.

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:52 PM
I don't want Theo to stop posting either just for the record. A little less arogance would be nice. The big name dropping is not my scene but if it makes you feel better keep going.

Theo as I said earlier I will not boast about with whom I have worked or worked for in the years as it will not contribute anything to the bb or my qualifications on the end of the day they are only pieces of paper I use when looking for a job. However if you really need to know you could ask kindly in a pm ;)

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:55 PM
Now can we really drop this and continue the original post. I honestly didn't think it is worth all the attention this is getting I was not rude and I was not lying either it was just a little observation that is being blown way out of proportion

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 08:58 PM
Now can we really drop this and continue the original post. I honestly didn't think it is worth all the attention this is getting I was not rude and I was not lying either it was just a little observation that is being blown way out of proportion



Oh you love the attention! :lol:

dutchmike
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:03 PM
Oh you love the attention! :lol:


Atleast it won't make my head swell:lol:

P.R.E.
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:40 PM
I listen to everybody advices and always take different opinions in consideration, but I like to know somebodies credentials, before I spend my time reading their opinions.

Theo


Considering that you are asking for credentials, it would be just fair for you to present your personal dressage credentials. I say this because you are always giving your opinion about other riders and in order to close the mouth all of those who dare to disagree with you.

Can we have your personal dressage credentials?

airbourne1
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:45 PM
Please respect each other on these boards, and stop acting like children. Why the insults and name calling? Would you say these snarky things to each others faces? I doubt it. So why is it okay to post it? It's demeaning to everyone, and I would expect better of a five year old, let alone adults. Grow up and learn to get along!

Dalfan
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:45 PM
Yes. I do notice also when in disagreement with others, that is one of his arguments -
"but I like to know somebodies credentials, before I spend my time reading their opinions".

Ditto..

STF
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:51 PM
Its really a mute point guys. Think about it, it does not matter. Lets just concentrate on our own riding and goals and forget about other people who are not as supportive or those who are looking to drag others down. No need to waste needless energy on this "crap" anymore as it DOES NOT MATTER in the long run.

Now, back to Catherine's riding! She is a lovely rider, with lovely history! I read on her website she will do clinics in North America. Anyone thinking of bringing her in??

anita m
Jan. 19, 2007, 09:52 PM
I watched the 3 minute video sample. While I generally liked the video--I thought the horse was lovely and ther rider competent and professional looking--I did find her legs extremely annoying. It looked to me like she was jabbing him with the spur, not every stride, but many of them, and I did think that she was banging her legs against his sides on purpose and not by accident. So, I was surprised someone on an earlier post implied she was not doing that on purpose. I'm glad she wasn't doing it on purpose. While I'm not trying to be overly critical (like I could do bettter, ha) I do think it's important to recognize what's desirable and what's not. But overall, I liked the video.

P.R.E.
Jan. 19, 2007, 10:14 PM
I watched the 3 minute video sample. While I generally liked the video--I thought the horse was lovely and ther rider competent and professional looking--I did find her legs extremely annoying. It looked to me like she was jabbing him with the spur, not every stride, but many of them, and I did think that she was banging her legs against his sides on purpose and not by accident. So, I was surprised someone on an earlier post implied she was not doing that on purpose. I'm glad she wasn't doing it on purpose. While I'm not trying to be overly critical (like I could do bettter, ha) I do think it's important to recognize what's desirable and what's not. But overall, I liked the video.

I agree with you. I think that the movement of the leg is on purpose, but I don't think she hits the horse with the spur. I think the movement is on purpose, because you can tell that she has a great control of the spur, ao, when you can control your heel like that, you are in total control of the movement of your leg.

There are details that I think they can be different, but is just a matter of style.

Great rider.

Sabine
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:45 AM
yes. That's my take on it as well. Theo's sister was trashed because DM does not like Theo. Period. Just because Theo is a little arrogant (haha) should not mean open season on his relatives.

While I can understand DM feeling some 'special dutch feelings- ' a vibe that we all don't understand because we don't live there and know the special cultural and social things going on- I have to say that I personally prefer Inge Fokker over Catherine Haddad's ride. And I say that without criticism- just as my eye sees the ride- the harmony and the bodies moving.
I think this is a great example why we have judges judging differently and it's a great example why we all have to accept the fact that we perceive things differently and tend to add extra point of 'liking' when we see something that kind of 'jingles' our inner sense of harmony.

To me- Inge rides in harmony- her aids a less perceptible- I don't see stiffness in the upper body (as DM does) - I see good balance and a more long leg- which I prefer...
In Catherine's ride I see a clinic ride to illustrate to riders (in an exceptionally deliberate way!!!) what to do and not to do..while speaking into a mike. I also know that her horse is less hot than Inge's - a great difference in the way it will be ridden.

Personally I aspire to ride like Inge- although my horse is more like Catherine's- and right there is a huge challenge for the rider- how do you get the laid back horse to be consistently hot- but manageable...but that's for another thread...

I think DM just had a feeling of needing to 'correct' Theo- and I don't quite get why- but I do respect the fact that there might be reasons that are not openly apparent to us americans...??

Sabine
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:48 AM
Its really a mute point guys. Think about it, it does not matter. Lets just concentrate on our own riding and goals and forget about other people who are not as supportive or those who are looking to drag others down. No need to waste needless energy on this "crap" anymore as it DOES NOT MATTER in the long run.

Now, back to Catherine's riding! She is a lovely rider, with lovely history! I read on her website she will do clinics in North America. Anyone thinking of bringing her in??

Yes- I would like to. I think she is an amazing teacher with a great level of communication and ability to illustrate details. She is physically very fit and able and not afraid to call a spade a spade (that's my guts talking...lol) - but I love clinicians that are that way- because they do affect change and usually cause a thinking process- which is most of the time very beneficial to get the rider thinking and reading and more involved.

YoungFilly
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:59 AM
I am a little confused, is this something bad? honest question.

Refering to post 84.... Yes, of course thats bad!
People from the Netherlands and Germany that had no affiliation with dressage in their countries knew who Anky (Netherlands) and Ulla (Germany) were, and if I asked the same question to some joe blow in Wyoming if they knew who Debbie McDonald (USA) was and they gave me a blank look, thats bad!

Everyone knows who Tiger Woods is right? Not all of us golf.

YoungFilly
Jan. 20, 2007, 01:19 AM
I just watched and thought she was very interesting, definitely opinionated. I'm guessing you are referring to her use of the double. She seems to follow very closely the Schultheis method. You see it in many things that she does. It's one of those things that for the majority of riders it's a big no-no but in the right hands can be effective.

Ok, at least three people heard what I heard, and got it right.

What is the Schultheis method, and if its so prevelant, why has it never, ever been discussed in Dressage Today, or even stated here on Coth, or why have I never heard this term before in a clinic? Even from people abroad?

Like I said, I did hear Ulla during a clinic say she uses a double on a young horse. But the horse, in her example would have to be one that would not get on the bit ever. Of course, I can't tell with this horse in this video. But if this is something that is not supposed to be done by us newbies... why is it in a video to teach us? Before poor Catherine gets hurt, that question could be posed to Ulla too.

That said, she is an excellent rider, and I do think the horse is great, and I honestly would never know if she never said it. :) I do strive to be that good.

P.R.E.
Jan. 20, 2007, 01:22 AM
But that is not bad. That you, me and others we like Dressage or/and horses doesn't mean that everyone has to like the same. We are talking about different Countries, different people and that is the beauty of this World, that there is so many different cultures and Countries with different ways to see there lifes.
Understand the differences and enjoy what you like, fid the great things of the people that are around you and understand the differences.
I came from another Country, horses there are viewed in a different way and it was not better or worse than here, it is just different. But when you live in other Countries you realize the beautiful things of leaving in the US, even if certain things are different.
That it would be great that everyone would share our interest in horses, yes it would be great, but is not and we have to accept and understand that. Is easier to move to live in other Country where people think more the way you do, that trying to change your people. That is why I moved here, because I found here points in common that I didn't found in my Country and it was not fair from me to expect that people in my Country would change to think the way I do.

Sabine
Jan. 20, 2007, 01:36 AM
But that is not bad. That you, me and others we like Dressage or/and horses doesn't mean that everyone has to like the same. We are talking about different Countries, different people and that is the beauty of this World, that there is so many different cultures and Countries with different ways to see there lifes.
Understand the differences and enjoy what you like, fid the great things of the people that are around you and understand the differences.
I came from another Country, horses there are viewed in a different way and it was not better or worse than here, it is just different. But when you live in other Countries you realize the beautiful things of leaving in the US, even if certain things are different.
That it would be great that everyone would share our interest in horses, yes it would be great, but is not and we have to accept and understand that. Is easier to move to live in other Country where people think more the way you do, that trying to change your people. That is why I moved here, because I found here points in common that I didn't found in my Country and it was not fair from me to expect that people in my Country would change to think the way I do.

I understand what you are saying and that is why I moved from Germany to the US- completely on my own accord- unassisted- with 2 suitcases, 10K US$$ and a job...27 years ago...LOL!!!

P.R.E.
Jan. 20, 2007, 01:46 AM
I understand what you are saying and that is why I moved from Germany to the US- completely on my own accord- unassisted- with 2 suitcases, 10K US$$ and a job...27 years ago...LOL!!!

You started a little better than me. I had to leave with 2 suitcases and $500. (Running away from political persecusion. My family was in politics). I arrived 4 years ago with a job that gave me a place to live in exchange of riding their horses 2 hours a day. 4 years later, I have a life and a business, I have found bad people but I have found a vast mjority of great people. The best thing is that, at night I go to bed and I can actually sleep in peace and without fear. :) :)
At the end of the day, different stories and at the same time similar tories, but like you I am an imigrant and we give a special value to what we find here.:) :)

Sabine
Jan. 20, 2007, 02:41 AM
You started a little better than me. I had to leave with 2 suitcases and $500. (Running away from political persecusion. My family was in politics). I arrived 4 years ago with a job that gave me a place to live in exchange of riding their horses 2 hours a day. 4 years later, I have a life and a business, I have found bad people but I have found a vast mjority of great people. The best thing is that, at night I go to bed and I can actually sleep in peace and without fear. :) :)
At the end of the day, different stories and at the same time similar tories, but like you I am an imigrant and we give a special value to what we find here.:) :)

Agreed and my compliments to you and doing so well!
I have only found this country to be a place to rise to the top and do what you dream of.....:)
now back to the thread...

Horsedances
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:04 AM
Considering that you are asking for credentials, it would be just fair for you to present your personal dressage credentials. I say this because you are always giving your opinion about other riders and in order to close the mouth all of those who dare to disagree with you.

Can we have your personal dressage credentials?

I have a website you can watch, I wrote some books about freestyle to music, made Video's and DVD's for judgecourses and judge-exames, I was a sponsor of Coby and Marlies van Baalen, Dettie Oosterom, Inge and Wendy Fokker, sponsor of big dressage events, and clinics, sponsor of the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation, owner of 5 horses (and counting). And have over 1000 clients in 16 different countries. I was born in a very ambitious horse-family, and my wife was an eventer. I spend 20 years travelling around with the top-dressage riders, trainers and judges. Was present at all trainingsessions of our horses at Coby's and Johann's place.

Theo

pophorse
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:07 AM
While I do find Catherine's legs somewhat busy, as well as her ankles a bit too far forward and not aligned properly with her hips, she's a top pro and with her results I find it hard to bring myself to seriously critique anything she does while riding. She has the results, she's a pro and for those reasons she has my respect. Ditto for Theo's sister, who just rides like many Dutch riders, in an upper body frame that some might find "stiff".
My kudos and respect to both as models for everyone, they have been there and done it.
On a different topic I just read in Eurodressage that Marlies van Baalen is doing her new freestyle with Cees Slings. I thought Theo does all their kur work.
What gives???

Horsedances
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:37 AM
While I do find Catherine's legs somewhat busy, as well as her ankles a bit too far forward and not aligned properly with her hips, she's a top pro and with her results I find it hard to bring myself to seriously critique anything she does while riding. She has the results, she's a pro and for those reasons she has my respect. Ditto for Theo's sister, who just rides like many Dutch riders, in an upper body frame that some might find "stiff".
My kudos and respect to both as models for everyone, they have been there and done it.
On a different topic I just read in Eurodressage that Marlies van Baalen is doing her new freestyle with Cees Slings. I thought Theo does all their kur work.
What gives???

The upper body frame is something which is teached over here and considered as great importancy. Many riders learn this with special gadgets like a stick behind your shoulders, special jackets etc....

About the new freestyle of Marlies, the German owners wanted a special composition played by the Aachen Symphonic Orchestra, and since I don't fancy to work on 3-5 months projects, and because I am more a "do it myself guy", play the instruments myself or hire the musicians which I like, this descission was made. As I have stated before I am not a 50.000 US$ musicmaker, because I like short time projects and like to switch from HipHop to Trance, from Flamenco to Salsa, from Musicals to Filmmusic. Next to this I am working on manyyyy projects for Iron Spring Farm, Inspo and some Spanish riders. But let me tell you Marlies is in very good hands with Cees, allthough I think he will mis Victor somewhere and somehow along the line. As you can read in another thread I just finished the freestyle for Coby van Baalen and O'Jay and Marrigje van Baalen and Inspekteur and some other students of Coby and Marlies.

Making music for dressage is not a marriage between rider and musicmaker, we have seen that Imke Bartels has switched from
Slings to a famous concert pianist.

Theo

pophorse
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:57 AM
thanks Theo for your comments. I did figure that being for Relevant it might have to do with the owners, so you have confirmed it.
I also think the job will be done as well with Slings, both of you know quite well how to do your job.

About the position, personally I prefer that elegant, straight upper body frame that your sister shows while riding over other styles, but that's my opinion.
BTW your sister and your niece are super riders, I have seen them a few times in Holland and they do an excellent job, you are so right to be proud of them!

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 20, 2007, 08:08 AM
Theo, what formal credentials do you have? In other words, what is your "equine" education, your certificates, etc? Do you have a certificate like so many other Europeans who are involved in the horse industry? What books have you written? Were you involved with "The Simplicity of Dressage" by Johann Hinnemann or are you self-published? "Simplicity of Dressage":) is the book Coby van Baalen did. Not being a Dutch speaker, it's hard for someone like me to find your books.

Horsedances
Jan. 20, 2007, 09:04 AM
Theo, what formal credentials do you have? In other words, what is your &quot;equine&quot; education, your certificates, etc? Do you have a certificate like so many other Europeans who are involved in the horse industry? What books have you written? Were you involved with &quot;The Simplicity of Dressage&quot; by Johann Hinnemann or are you self-published? &quot;Simplicity of Dressage&quot;:) is the book Coby van Baalen did. Not being a Dutch speaker, it's hard for someone like me to find your books.

Don't you think it's your turn now to crawl from behind your alter ?Theo.

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 20, 2007, 09:51 AM
Don't you think it's your turn now to crawl from behind your alter ?Theo.

No. I'm not the one who goes around criticizing people and talking down to them like they're worthless trash. I make no claims:) I make no claims and criticize no one.
Theo, when I studied in Reims there was this wonderful Patisserie around the corner and they had the most delectable "goodies". The lady behind the counter of this Patisserie was foul, needless to say I humbled myself everyday so that I could withstand her abrasiveness because I just loved the "goodies" she had on display. Your goodies, aka your videos, are wonderful and you know it, so perhaps this is the reason you get away with coming on strong:) Of course I hate to admit it, but your sister looks good. Oddly enough I originally thought you were in your mid 60s, but now I know better.

P.R.E.
Jan. 20, 2007, 11:26 AM
I have a website you can watch, I wrote some books about freestyle to music, made Video's and DVD's for judgecourses and judge-exames, I was a sponsor of Coby and Marlies van Baalen, Dettie Oosterom, Inge and Wendy Fokker, sponsor of big dressage events, and clinics, sponsor of the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation, owner of 5 horses (and counting). And have over 1000 clients in 16 different countries. I was born in a very ambitious horse-family, and my wife was an eventer. I spend 20 years travelling around with the top-dressage riders, trainers and judges. Was present at all trainingsessions of our horses at Coby's and Johann's place.

Theo

Your website is not impressive at all and yor credentials talk about your musical knowledge not your qualifications as a rider or trainer. For sure I would consider your opinion of value when talkng about music, but those credentials doesn't give you a blank check to come and trash other people riding abilities. As for owning horses, that is no credential either, throught this board many people including you critisize the knowledge of other people that also own several horses, so that is a very debatable credential.
I think everyone is aware that your main intention here is to promote your business (which is fair and you have all the right of the World to do it), but as someone said, coming and trashing people is not doing you a favor.There is an old saying, "A lady should not only be pure, but look pure." (sorry if I changed something of the saying, hope it didn't got lost in the translation).

Back to the OP, even with the different opinions about her leg movement, what a great rider and true good seat.

ridgeback
Jan. 20, 2007, 11:53 AM
Go back and watch the video and take notice of the horse, if she was banging him with her legs or spurs would he be so relaxed?? Also go back and read one of my earlier responses where Catherine explained her leg.

ridgeback
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:03 PM
Ok, at least three people heard what I heard, and got it right.

What is the Schultheis method, and if its so prevelant, why has it never, ever been discussed in Dressage Today, or even stated here on Coth, or why have I never heard this term before in a clinic? Even from people abroad?

Like I said, I did hear Ulla during a clinic say she uses a double on a young horse. But the horse, in her example would have to be one that would not get on the bit ever. Of course, I can't tell with this horse in this video. But if this is something that is not supposed to be done by us newbies... why is it in a video to teach us? Before poor Catherine gets hurt, that question could be posed to Ulla too.

That said, she is an excellent rider, and I do think the horse is great, and I honestly would never know if she never said it. :) I do strive to be that good.


Have you heard of Michelle Gibson? Well she rides in the the Schultheis method and I know it's been discussed in Dressage Today when Michelle has been interviewed by them. The horse Catherine is riding is a 7 year old hardly young and is already showing in PSG and if I'm not mistaken PSG horses are ridden in a double bridle.

dutchmike
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:22 PM
So according to Theo's theory my mother is also qualified to comment ,and to be arrogant she did everything Theo does and has a fotographic memory on top of that so everything she reads is also memorised. A pitty she can't ride to save her live though and like she puts it.

"Who am I to critisise if I can't do it myself" and ofcourse I think she is 100% right :)

kkj
Jan. 20, 2007, 12:58 PM
huh? Some of the best coaches and judges are not good riders themselves. They might just have a great eye and a great ability to explain things. Conversely, some of the best riders in the world are not the best teachers and judges. You don't have to be the best rider to be the best critic.

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 20, 2007, 02:12 PM
OMG, it's...

"Meet the Fokkers!"

Someone had to say it. That was a great movie. Love ya, Theo! Now back to our regularly scheduled snarkfest. I will avoid any and all comments about Dutchmike's mama.

dutchmike
Jan. 20, 2007, 02:29 PM
huh? Some of the best coaches and judges are not good riders themselves. They might just have a great eye and a great ability to explain things. Conversely, some of the best riders in the world are not the best teachers and judges. You don't have to be the best rider to be the best critic.

big difference between not riding great and not riding at all.

dutchmike
Jan. 20, 2007, 02:46 PM
Theo you might be related to my ex she was a fokker too and thinking back she is just as big headed lmao. If you are I might subconsiously really dislike you :cool:

XHalt
Jan. 20, 2007, 02:49 PM
Have you heard of Michelle Gibson? Well she rides in the the Schultheis method and I know it's been discussed in Dressage Today when Michelle has been interviewed by them. The horse Catherine is riding is a 7 year old hardly young and is already showing in PSG and if I'm not mistaken PSG horses are ridden in a double bridle.


YF and I weren't talking about the horse in the video. Of course that makes sense. :) It was in response to her answering the question, 'when do you introduce the double' on the full video. Her answer was very early on compared to most schools of thought. She explained that it's a lot of metal in the horses mouth and takes time to get acclimated.

dizzywriter
Jan. 20, 2007, 04:33 PM
Refering to post 84.... Yes, of course thats bad!
People from the Netherlands and Germany that had no affiliation with dressage in their countries knew who Anky (Netherlands) and Ulla (Germany) were, and if I asked the same question to some joe blow in Wyoming if they knew who Debbie McDonald (USA) was and they gave me a blank look, thats bad!

Everyone knows who Tiger Woods is right? Not all of us golf.

yes, but think that more people golf than ride dressage. Golf is also a sport featured on the news, unlike dressage.

I once met a writer, an American living in the Netherlands, who didn't know dressage from NASCAR. He knew about a person called Anky and that she was a big thing in Holland, but had no idea why. He just saw her on TV a lot. I clued him in to the best of my knowledge. But I think that when you have international champions in a small country, more people know of them than in a big country like the US, where there is so much more competition for attention of any kind.

I didn't know who Kobe Bryant (sic?) was until I saw him on an Ali G clip on YouTube. But though I am American, I don't live in the US, so I guess that's forgivable.

dizzywriter
Jan. 20, 2007, 05:09 PM
The intramural Dutch showdown is mildly interesting to those of us who are not the two involved.

But using the video's advice, I tried using my seat today to drive Dobbin forward at the canter, and it worked wonderfully. But, my, it was hard work. Hard, hard, work. I kept saying to my trainer: "I'm driving him, do you see it?" And she did. And it was a good canter. Dobbin does a four-beat when he's barely trying, but it was a really nice canter and I felt great afterwards.

So, thank you to the OP. That was instructive.

Do keep posting similar things, even if it leads civil war in the Netherlands.

YoungFilly
Jan. 20, 2007, 05:37 PM
Have you heard of Michelle Gibson? Well she rides in the the Schultheis method and I know it's been discussed in Dressage Today when Michelle has been interviewed by them. The horse Catherine is riding is a 7 year old hardly young and is already showing in PSG and if I'm not mistaken PSG horses are ridden in a double bridle.


Yes, of course I have heard of Michelle Gibson, and respect her training methods. I just have never heard of this method before. I guess I will do a google of it to see what I find.

I think Catherine is obviously a great rider and instructor. I just want to make that clear to you.

egontoast
Jan. 20, 2007, 05:40 PM
So, thank you to the OP. That was instructive.

Do keep posting similar things, even if it leads civil war in the Netherlands.__________________



I guess you haven't read the OP's other threads.:confused: It's not all so nice.

Dalfan
Jan. 20, 2007, 05:44 PM
I guess you haven't read the OP's other threads. It's not all so nice.

Let me guess. You STILL prefer the AvG RK-schooling session way of riding to this lovely rider and her relaxed, calm, rhythmic, forward, lovely, happy, lovely (did I say that already?) calm horse?

dizzywriter
Jan. 20, 2007, 06:02 PM
I guess you haven't read the OP's other threads.:confused: It's not all so nice.


No, I haven't. What's the point?

bjrudq
Jan. 20, 2007, 06:04 PM
i loved the video.

i did not think of her legs as "busy" i thought of them as moving with the horse, who, from the sound of her breathing, is a big mover and not that easy to go with, i'd guess. that was his working trot? cool.

the alternative for a lesser rider might have been bouncing around on the saddle(which is probably what i'd do!)or dumbing him down to make him easier to ride. instead, she does what she can to accomodate HIM. i wish I was capable of that!

thanks for posting this.

i tried to read some of the comments because i wanted to get others' takes on the vid; instead, as often happens around here, it deteriorated.

makes it hard to read the genuine discussion when you have to wade through a bunch of siht.

oh well. loved the vid, thanks again!

ridgeback
Jan. 20, 2007, 06:05 PM
YF and I weren't talking about the horse in the video. Of course that makes sense. :) It was in response to her answering the question, 'when do you introduce the double' on the full video. Her answer was very early on compared to most schools of thought. She explained that it's a lot of metal in the horses mouth and takes time to get acclimated.

I'm confused:D The horse is PSG horse which means it's used to the bridle and in the right hands I wouldn't think its that difficult for the horse to get used to it.

ridgeback
Jan. 20, 2007, 06:17 PM
YF and I weren't talking about the horse in the video. Of course that makes sense. :) It was in response to her answering the question, 'when do you introduce the double' on the full video. Her answer was very early on compared to most schools of thought. She explained that it's a lot of metal in the horses mouth and takes time to get acclimated.

Gotcha I didn't watch the whole video I did watch the 3 videos on dressagetraining.com because they are offering the first month free, dressageclinic is not.

STF
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:51 PM
This thread is stilllllllllllllllll going on????

Dalfan
Jan. 20, 2007, 07:54 PM
oh well. loved the vid, thanks again!

You're very welcome;)

Check out the vid of Werth and Antony. Just lovely.

Dressage Art
Jan. 21, 2007, 12:13 AM
The "busy leg" movements mentioned by those who saw the video are very normal. When you can relax your body and allow your seat to not only follow the movement of the horse but use the seat to adjust the tempo (from working trot to slow trot) the riders leg movement is because she is "not" gripping with her leg, but allowing her leg to move with the rhythm of the horse allowing the hip, knee and ankle to do their job of being the shock absorbers, as well as the low back. I thought she looked wonderful and did anyone notice how out of breath she was, while talking and riding? And some people think riding is easy, you just sit there and the horse does all the work:no:

I was thinking how nice and absorbent her legs are on such a big mover, his trot must bounce up at least a one feet up and she absorbes all this bounce in her body and releaces it throught her legs so elegantly.

People who think that her legs are busy - never sat a forward trot. Go forward people and have some air time!

P.R.E.
Jan. 21, 2007, 02:02 AM
People who think that her legs are busy - never sat a forward trot. Go forward people and have some air time!

That is a very general comment, you must have done a very deep study to reach such conclusion. Maybe you are the one who has not sat in enough horses with big movement, to realize that some big movers can be very comfortable, the same that some big movers are a tue shaking machine, all dpends of some many varibles that is impossible to make such an afrimation after you have ridden many, many big movers.

The only person who has an answer to this question, is the rider itself, it would be interesting through one of the memebers of this board, that are in contact with her, to ask her opinion about how she uses her leg.

Edited to ad: Someone that is trying to obtain an L judge status, should never analize in such absolute terms. The better judges are those who don't think in absolutes.

bjrudq
Jan. 21, 2007, 11:27 AM
if you managed to get through all the irrelevant snarkiness in some of the other previous posts,

you would have seen that someone DID ask her, and that she exclaimed that her legs were a disaster in that video.

there is always something that can be better.

but it seemed obvious to me that the cause of her leg movements was the horse's movement, she was not deliberately moving her legs that way, which is what "busy legs" suggests to me.

but i defer to what i imagine is your vastly superior knowledge and experience.

P.R.E.
Jan. 21, 2007, 12:02 PM
if you managed to get through all the irrelevant snarkiness in some of the other previous posts,

you would have seen that someone DID ask her, and that she exclaimed that her legs were a disaster in that video.

there is always something that can be better.

but it seemed obvious to me that the cause of her leg movements was the horse's movement, she was not deliberately moving her legs that way, which is what "busy legs" suggests to me.

but i defer to what i imagine is your vastly superior knowledge and experience.

I have reached a point where I really don't understand some people in this dressage forum. You start your post making a reference to the SNARKINESS of the previous comments, but you finish your post with something similar.

If you or anyone reads my posts, you would find, that I have never gone in to any discussion claiming that I know more about dressage than anyone else. All my "hot" arguments about how some people refere or critisize other people in an arrogant or unfair way.

But I have found that in this dressage forum, if someone agrees with a member they are willing to play blind, even if that person calls names to their mothers and if they don't like someone, they are goingto crucify that person for saying that the sky is blue.

In this particular case, I mentioned that the rider should be asked the question, because I didn't feel that anyone including me can know what was the rider trying to accomplish. Does that means that I was claiming more knowledge than others. NO. I was showing more humbleness than others.

Through all the time I have been posting here and in the Hunter-Jumper forum, I have not seen or been part of a snarky argument there. People there actually are less uptight.

I am going to miss some people from this Dressage forum, but I had enough, I rather spend my time with more positive, not knowing-all people.

Horsedances
Jan. 21, 2007, 12:26 PM
I have reached a point where I really don't understand some people in this dressage forum. You start your post making a reference to the SNARKINESS of the previous comments, but you finish your post with something similar.

If you or anyone reads my posts, you would find, that I have never gone in to any discussion claiming that I know more about dressage than anyone else. All my "hot" arguments about how some people refere or critisize other people in an arrogant or unfair way.

But I have found that in this dressage forum, if someone agrees with a member they are willing to play blind, even if that person calls names to their mothers and if they don't like someone, they are goingto crucify that person for saying that the sky is blue.

In this particular case, I mentioned that the rider should be asked the question, because I didn't feel that anyone including me can know what was the rider trying to accomplish. Does that means that I was claiming more knowledge than others. NO. I was showing more humbleness than others.

Through all the time I have been posting here and in the Hunter-Jumper forum, I have not seen or been part of a snarky argument there. People there actually are less uptight.

I am going to miss some people from this Dressage forum, but I had enough, I rather spend my time with more positive, not knowing-all people.

Come On P.R.E. I just went through some of your postings, and YES you are a noted member of this forum. Please don't let anyone chase you away. I, me , myself very often shake my head and think :eek: :eek: :eek: .

But that is life :yes:


Theo

bjrudq
Jan. 21, 2007, 12:45 PM
pre, did you READ yourself in the post just before mine?

did i miss something? did i misinterpret something you were trying to say?

becasue it sure came across as snarky to me.

Horsedances
Jan. 21, 2007, 01:33 PM
Theo you might be related to my ex she was a fokker too and thinking back she is just as big headed lmao. If you are I might subconsiously really dislike you :cool:

There are other boards where you can steam off your frustrations about your EX. Call Oprah :D :lol:

Or maybe watching this video will help you :

www.danceofcolors.com/SydneyWasFun.wmv (http://www.danceofcolors.com/SydneyWasFun.wmv)

Theo

Dalfan
Jan. 21, 2007, 04:18 PM
PRE - don't leave. You add a lot to the discussions. And more times than not , you are spot-on in your assessments of rider,horse and posters. :yes:

Nic Del
Jan. 21, 2007, 05:12 PM
And also remember, that was a true working trot. Not a western jog, at all:D .
I saw nothing wrong with her legs. They just reflect the movement of the horse, imo. Watch the really good riders. You will see this "out and in" of the legs in the sit trot.

I agree. I often see good riders with that in and out motion of their legs. I have always thought that it was a sign that the rider's legs are loose and bouncing in ryhthm with the horse. It is hard to tell whether she is actually kicking the horse as much as some people have been commenting because of the quality of the film, but I would think that she is not. Her riding style seems to be consistent with her instructing. I like her.

Dressage Art
Jan. 22, 2007, 02:06 PM
Edited to ad: Someone that is trying to obtain an L judge status, should never analyze in such absolute terms. The better judges are those who don't think in absolutes.

You can not call USDF "L" Judging Program graduates "L Judges" - it is a program offered by USDF and all of the Judges have to be certified from USEF - "L" Judging Program is a prerequisite to become a USEF setified small "r" judge. "L" Judging Graduate can judge only Schooling shows and only Intro to Second Level Tests. The results from those tests are not recorded officially and those shows are for the schooling purposes only.

I don't know where from you found out that I'm an USDF "L" Judging Program participant, but yes, you are correct and I'm trying very hard to learn an enormous amount of information that is offered in this program. I'll be thrilled if I'll graduate from this program - we have 2-3 GP pro trainers in our program that are repeating this program a second time to graduate with honors. It's a very hard program and there is a LOT of reading and a LOT of memorization. I never rode GP, my highest level was junior FEI, but I had a chance to ride 3 GP horses, one of them is a breeding stallion, quite known in US. I think that I have some idea of what a big trot feels like. I can never have enough of GP schoolmaster’s experience, so if you want to send me one of yours, for me to gain a bigger trot experience, please feel free to do that.

What I found out in the "L" Judging Program that there are MAJOR mistakes and MINOR mistakes that are scored differently. What I started to see quite often on the web forums that posters tend to be drawn to the MINOR mistakes and often miss the white elephant in the room.

The video of this rider is very lovely, no doubt that every one of us can improve something in our riding. It's pathetic that the big and beautiful picture of this elegant rider riding and teaching at the same time is getting lost just because she has a busy leg. So P.R.E, from my "L" Judging Program experience to you, I would suggest to try and differentiate from the MAJOR faults and MINOR faults in riders and horses.

Dressage Art
Jan. 22, 2007, 02:23 PM
huh? Some of the best coaches and judges are not good riders themselves. They might just have a great eye and a great ability to explain things. Conversely, some of the best riders in the world are not the best teachers and judges. You don't have to be the best rider to be the best critic.

Yep, and as I'm finding out right now, there are pages and pages of rules to learn to become a judge. There is a bout $10K of education that one has to finish to become a judge and then get paid $150.00 per day (for the lower level judges) or put another $10K in education to become an "R" or "S" and then get a bit more money. So there are not a lot of trainers and riders who want to be a book rule worms and pay a lot of money for that. Most of them would rather be in the barn on horses or shows than in the classroom.

Bless the excellent riders who are trying to become judges, as one of my "L" Judging Program instructors said, if we would allow only excellent GP riders who trained several; GP horses to be judges - we would have only a handful judges in US.

The point is that judges have to work together with trainers. Judge should point out what is happening and trainer should explain to the rider how to fix it. It takes a village to raise a dressage rider.

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 23, 2007, 01:05 AM
DressageArt, would you please give us examples of major mistakes and minor mistakes and how they are scored differently. Also, why is it that we are so often drawn to seeing the minor mistakes and focussing on those?

Your CafePress products are quite unique and would make nice gifts.I did order from CafePress a year ago and was surprised that the quality was so high.

Dressage Art
Jan. 24, 2007, 04:47 PM
DressageArt, would you please give us examples of major mistakes and minor mistakes and how they are scored differently.


There is a snippet from my report:
--------------------------------
Critics use personal taste to critique dressage performance, but dressage judges use methodology and systematic approach. Dressage judges arrive to the final score for each dressage movement using this formula: BASICS + CONFIGURATION-/+ MODIFIERS = FINAL SCORE

***BASICS are biomechanics: the purity and quality of the gaits, sufficient impulsion, and sufficient submission. For example there was no bend (BASICS) in the circle; horse was on the forehand (BASICS). During the trot to canter transition horse was above the bit (BASICS) with out the BASICS it’s only “trick dressage” or “poodle dressage”.

***CONFIGURATION (or criteria) is the required movement (circle). If the horse fulfilled the issue of CONFIGURATION, it means he “did the trick.” For example a horse did a circle (A CONFIGURATION), was the circle too large, too small, or egg shaped (parts of CONFIGURATION) Another example is a transition from trot to canter, was transition done on the letter (parts of CONFIGURATION)? With out CONFIGURATION there is no dressage.

***MODIFIERS can be negative: spooking, shying, inaccuracies that decrees the difficulty of the movement (angled 3 loop serpentine or canter depart in the corner instead of “H” on the long side) or positive: number of steps in the rein back, seconds standing in halt, good corners in general and accurate non essence parts of the movements (turn at C and …). For example our horse spooked (MODIFIER) in the second half of the circle. Our horse did transition from trot to canter, then broke (MODIFIER) in to trot again and rider had to pick up the canter again. Modifiers can be positive: straighten at the end of the shoulder in.
--------------------------
The purity and quality of the gaits, sufficient impulsion, and sufficient submission is much more important than a bouncing lower leg of the rider. Let's flip those the opposite way ---> the rider's leg is very quiet and still, but we have a slow western pleasure jog horse. What MAIN component of dressage do we loose? Impultion and desire to go forward. Think what comes first and try to put "horse affront of the carriage", not otherwise.

Dressage Art
Jan. 24, 2007, 05:02 PM
Also, why is it that we are so often drawn to seeing the minor mistakes and focussing on those?

I personally think, for the lack of proper dressage education. Dressage is fairly new to US - USDF is only 30 years old. It's quite different from Western or Hunters or even Eventing, so most people don't have the knowledge of BIG blocks of dressage. Most of horses that we see on TV are a Western horses - the image of gliding Paso Fino riders is embedded in our minds. Some people in US compare dressage horses/riders to Western horses/riders, look at the rider positions and then complain about the "bouncing" in dressage. I don't think that it's a good idea to do that.

Oh and thank you for compliment for CP store.

Elegante E
Jan. 24, 2007, 05:40 PM
DressageArt - thanks for the info! Made wading through the last five paged really worthwhile.