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Elegante E
Jan. 13, 2007, 03:03 PM
Audited a clinic yesterday and saw some of the worst spur abuse I've seen in ages. One could tell the clinicians from the barn where it was held from those who rode with other trainers just from the spurs - the barn owner/trainer had all her students in rowel spurs. Not that I'm opposed to spurs but none of these students had a decent seat and all of them would post with their stirrups then ram their heels into their horses. Made for a lot of unhappy horses - shown by their lack of forward and tense bodies.

This has me thinking of two things. One: should the dressage community more actively discourage the use of spurs - at least in the ring not allow them till more heavy collection is asked for.

And two: When does someone deserve a school master? I keep hearing people recommend to others that they purchase a school master to learn dressage on. I nearly cried yesterday watching a lovely older school master swish his tail in misery as his rider bashed him in the side with every step - not because he wasn't forward but because she was incapable of riding with a steady leg. Seems the horse did have forward issues but only when the woman rode him. The clinician got on and the horse was lovely, and moved off the leg easily with no swishing tail. Btw, the rider listed herself as a third level rider and the horse as FEI.

I would like to hear more people recommending school masters for those who have at least mastered a decent post and can ride with seperate hands and seat. If you don't have that then the best horse in the world won't help someone learn dressage.


Ok final complaint about this clinic. Most of the horse/riders were listed 2nd level or above. If those were second level or third or fourth then I must be FEI. Oh and one person even admitted to moving up a level because she was sick of being "stuck" at the previous one. Sigh.

neVar
Jan. 13, 2007, 04:26 PM
i remember the day when i was a kid and rode western and my instructor said to me "i know she's dead to the leg- here's a crop) you don't get spurs in my barn until you can have a leg like that (pointing to a very lovely leg)

at least these riders had rowels on and not POW which are much sharper!

mbm
Jan. 13, 2007, 04:37 PM
i can empathize. i used to be where i saw that kind of thing day after day. it would make me want to rip those folks off their horses..... and sadly in a similar vein, the trainer was all for even the most absolute beginners riding with spurs and draw reins. sigh.

all i an suggest is dont go to places where you will see this. because you cant change the world and the best you can do is to help educate folks in a manner that doenst get them mad.

i truly believe that most folks that do this kind of thing arent doing it because they want to hurt their horses... they do it because they either dont know better or are not aware of what they are doing.

ideayoda
Jan. 13, 2007, 04:48 PM
So, did the clinician take a 'position'? Remove the spurs, and give the students a different methodology?

A spur is a tool of finesse, it should (generallly) be used in that manner, its not about levels of collection imho. A schoolmaster, or no, equitation/timing/tact is what the study of dressage must be upon. Just letting a student to endless #*$(&$#&( lateral work isnt dressage, it's a joke. If the clinician/teacher/trainer/rider/judge doesnt hold the line, how is the quality of each ride to progress?

merrygoround
Jan. 13, 2007, 04:57 PM
I would hope so. The purpose of a clinician in my book, is to clarify principles, and pick up on issues that the regular instructor may be missing. And this is a major issue.

Roweled spurs ,indeed.:mad:

P.R.E.
Jan. 13, 2007, 05:18 PM
I would hope so. The purpose of a clinician in my book, is to clarify principles, and pick up on issues that the regular instructor may be missing. And this is a major issue.

Roweled spurs ,indeed.:mad:

Don't attack the instrument, is not their fault. Roweled spurs have no fault of their own, is the leg that wears them the problem.

I was taught to ride always with spurs, because when you are riding and you feel you need them, there is no time to go to the locker and get them on, is already too late. Then again, you do need to know where your legs are.

Personally I ride always with roweled spurs, not the the type with stars but the ones with a round circle. I find that with this type of spurs the use of the leg is softer on the horse, because you need to give a light touch or shake in order to get a reaction. I do agree that if they are not used correctly, it can be terrible on the horse.

I don't think that spurs should be used for 3rd level and up, because the purpose of the spur has nothing to do with collection. If you make a relation of the need of spurs for collection, there is something wrong on how you understand the use of this particular instrument. In green young horses, spur have an important job, in order to teach the horse no to lean in your leg and to move away from it. With the years and maturity of the horse, the main purpose is the same, but in different ways and degrees.

I find harder on a horse, someone giving them a hard kick with their spurless heels, than a soft touch of a spur.

Again, all these I think makes sense, when the rider knows how to use their legs. When you are learning, either don't wear spurs or if you are not sure wear the new spurs with the plastic roller ball.

egontoast
Jan. 13, 2007, 05:35 PM
Roweled spurs ,indeed

If the leg is not quiet then the spurs are not 'earned' and shouldn't be used. If the leg is quiet and spurs are used, then the rowelled spur is kinder than the Prince of Wales spur because it rolls rather than jabs.

Elegante E
Jan. 13, 2007, 06:21 PM
I have the opposite opinion on spurs with young horses than one of the above posters. I don't think spurs should be used on them because they are harder than a leg or a tap with a whip, IMO.

I see spurs as a way to give a more definite cue without being harsh - when used well.

Sadly, the clinician didn't address the messy legs or spur issues the day I was there. Most of the riders seemed to have a lesson a day for the entire 4 day clinic and I attended the third day. My hope is that the issues were at least discussed at one point. I don't have much hope for those riding at that barn though. I'd seen one of the riders, a young girl new to riding, at a clinic early last year. She not only incessantly raked her horse with spurs but used her whip nearly as much. From what I saw, she hadn't changed this behavior at all since the last clinic. Oh and when I mentioned the over use of spurs last year in front of the trainer, her comment was that the horse was old and lazy so the girl had to use her spurs or the horse would stop. This same trainer chased her horse around the arena for 45 mins on the third day of the clinic (seriously, she nearly ran over the clinician coming into the arena and her comment was "the horse wasn't moving outside so I wanted to get her forward" - she got it forward by kicking the crap out of it just as she was coming in). I'm doubting anyone in that barn will learn too much no matter how many clinics they attend. Kind of depressing.

Bogey2
Jan. 13, 2007, 09:55 PM
One: should the dressage community more actively discourage the use of spurs

no. The problem is with the user, not the spur. The problem is also with the trainer. I worry that you may be disgusted when you see spurs on dressage riders. Used correctly, which I do see in mine and my trainers barn, they are appropriate.

LDM
Jan. 14, 2007, 01:02 AM
I have to agree with alot of the above posts. I rode for 6 years or so without spurs at all and only when I had a chieved a very quiet leg was I recommended to wear them, and even then I could not USE them, it was just learning to work with them on. (I had a very sensitive horse at this time, and one brush of the unfamilier things would send her into a state of confusion!) Although I never actually used them at that mare I did find several uses for them later, for collection, and the very very occassional reminder on lateral work, but 99% of the time a touch of the whip is better. (touch not beating) I have not scene many complete beginners who really should be trying to use spurs, or any at all possibly. A woman I used to board with way back when was introduced to leg yeild on Firday and on Saturday she did not get the result she wanted, threw on spurs, and the horse promptly ran and lept sideways to wall, within the next week or two picked up bucking. Big shocker. They can be abusive in the wrong hands.

EqTrainer
Jan. 14, 2007, 01:10 AM
i truly believe that most folks that do this kind of thing arent doing it because they want to hurt their horses... they do it because they either dont know better or are not aware of what they are doing.



I am sorry to say I disagree.. I think they don't care, they don't care at all about the horse. They just want to "Get Somewhere", they want to "Move Up The Levels" and the horse is merely a vehicle to make that happen. Sick and sad.

Leena
Jan. 14, 2007, 07:09 AM
This is the kind of clinicians with whom I throw out money in the toilet !

Thanks Elegante to post this; this remind me there is a lot to do with clinicians and unfortunately they have some credibility and can fool people and have horses suffer.

cuatx55
Jan. 14, 2007, 09:14 AM
A different take on the situation (for what it is worth)

This is not that complicated....Well, this is very unfortunate but sadly we probably have all seen some sort of abuse at clinics. If not the spur, then the whip. Or perhaps a harsh trainer who works the horse too hard. The clinician should have put a stop to it, but it would alienate the paying clients. This is a case of "money talks"...who cares about principles???

Sounds like the spur problem is just the tip of the iceburg with this crew. I agree spurs are NOT the problem, they are being misused severely. Most trainers I know won't let you ride in them when you can't control your leg.

Sure, we can all talk about the horribleness of this, but sometimes its best to cut ties, not go back, and be the one who rides with compassion. It will just make you upset to dwell on it. Yes, it's hard and I've seen nasty things from Olympic level riders, but you can't change the world. It's a lesson to everyone to be careful what barn you audit with, and the best trainer can get "sucked in" to compromising standards when 10 people are lined up with checks.

And people will buy a schoolmaster when they can afford it, not when they deserve it. If riding dressage meant riding with/like these people I would quit and do trail riding the rest of my life. It's not worth it.

AllWeatherGal
Jan. 14, 2007, 09:28 AM
I was taught to ride always with spurs, because when you are riding and you feel you need them, there is no time to go to the locker and get them on, is already too late. Then again, you do need to know where your legs are.

I didn't learn that way, but the week I "got an independent seat" that's how the instructor had me ride. If I was wrong, my sainted schoolhorse let me know RIGHT away.

Folks ... this is not just dressage, this is the current state of the WORLD. When we treat each other as commodities and expendable (I'm in a hurry today, so I'm going to cut you off, run this red light, make a dangerous u-turn in your way), when we turn a blind eye to the suffering of people not just across the world, but down the street ... how the HECK can you expect people to be attentive enough to their use of leg/foot?

In addition, of all the people who are teaching "dressage" in my area alone, I'd say only a quarter of them have an independent seat and full control of their bodies more than half the time they're on a horse.

murphyluv
Jan. 14, 2007, 10:53 AM
I didn't learn that way, but the week I "got an independent seat" that's how the instructor had me ride. If I was wrong, my sainted schoolhorse let me know RIGHT away.

Folks ... this is not just dressage, this is the current state of the WORLD. When we treat each other as commodities and expendable (I'm in a hurry today, so I'm going to cut you off, run this red light, make a dangerous u-turn in your way), when we turn a blind eye to the suffering of people not just across the world, but down the street ... how the HECK can you expect people to be attentive enough to their use of leg/foot?

In addition, of all the people who are teaching "dressage" in my area alone, I'd say only a quarter of them have an independent seat and full control of their bodies more than half the time they're on a horse.

Totally agree. It's society in general unfortunately-- I have a very pessimistic attitude lately towards that in general. I don't think it's ignorance that led these people to use spurs like that- they don't care and haven't bothered to take the blinkers off. It is sad to see it, and unfortunately if the whole barn is doing it you're probably not going to be able to change it. Perhaps a judge or a clinician in a respected position- it would be their responsibility to say something.
And as far as spur use-- well I ride a big older WB that I would not be able to get going very well w/out a very SMALL set of spurs- 1/4-1/2 inch long. and my leg is fairly quiet- the trainer watched me ride first, then gave them to me. I can't understand why someone would need rowel spurs or something really big if they're only riding at a certain level.

ESG
Jan. 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
Sorry you had to see this. This country needs to get back to some old style classic trainers who INSIST on mastering every little basic and foundation step before advancing. When I took lessons as a kid and teenager, my instructor was never afraid to put me back on the line with no stirrups or reins while I worked through a problem.


<ESG waving frantically> We're here! Believe me, we're here! We just lack students who actually want to put the time in to learn how to ride, rather than how to get to do "the tricks". I'm blessed with two adult and one teen riders who are actually interested in learning to do it right, and I'm really enjoying them. So refreshing to find someone, in this fast food society, that's willing to work. And at something they know to be long-term. :)

mbm
Jan. 14, 2007, 11:56 AM
I am sorry to say I disagree.. I think they don't care, they don't care at all about the horse. They just want to "Get Somewhere", they want to "Move Up The Levels" and the horse is merely a vehicle to make that happen. Sick and sad.

really? i think that there are *some* few folks that don't really care, but i think most ammies (young and old) dont want to hurt their horses. they love them. if you told them eye to eye what they were doing my bet is they would cry and feel horrid. i can only hope that once they had the info they would change what they were doing.....

mygenie
Jan. 14, 2007, 02:09 PM
Don't attack the instrument, is not their fault.

In green young horses, spur have an important job, in order to teach the horse no to lean in your leg and to move away from it.

When you are learning, either don't wear spurs or if you are not sure wear the new spurs with the plastic roller ball.

Agree with #1

Disagree with #2. Shouldn't one be able to teach a (green) horse not to lean on your leg WITHOUT spurs? Especially with a green horse, I would think you can nip the leaning in the bud faster.

Agree with #3

Elegante E
Jan. 14, 2007, 03:05 PM
Currently working with a young horse who can lean. The best way when they really lean is to use your leg and give them one big wack to say "get the heck off!". After that if they start to lean I tap with the whip. With young horses big cues are better and a leg or boot without spurs is gentler. I want my horse sensitive to my spur so that I don't have to move my leg much or change my position to cue.

Btw, I earned my spurs with a quiet leg. What that clinic did prove is that with a green horse/rider, spurs can lead to a dead horse. Spurs really shouldn't be used for forward. Hmm, I kind of made fun of Lisa Wilcox and her "boxing" the horse to get it forward but I think it's a much better way than constant spurring or the whip. Box it, baby, box it ;)

Oh and in the clinician's defense. He was young and his english wasn't very good. I think he was doing the best he could to help these riders and he was improving their riding.

mygenie
Jan. 14, 2007, 03:07 PM
Currently working with a young horse who can lean. The best way when they really lean is to use your leg and give them one big wack to say "get the heck off!". .

Yes, I remember being told exactly this, thanks :)

P.R.E.
Jan. 14, 2007, 03:13 PM
I didn't learn that way, but the week I "got an independent seat" that's how the instructor had me ride. If I was wrong, my sainted schoolhorse let me know RIGHT away.

Folks ... this is not just dressage, this is the current state of the WORLD. When we treat each other as commodities and expendable (I'm in a hurry today, so I'm going to cut you off, run this red light, make a dangerous u-turn in your way), when we turn a blind eye to the suffering of people not just across the world, but down the street ... how the HECK can you expect people to be attentive enough to their use of leg/foot?

In addition, of all the people who are teaching "dressage" in my area alone, I'd say only a quarter of them have an independent seat and full control of their bodies more than half the time they're on a horse.

The problem of the WORLD is that for some people, things are black or white ad there is no middle ground where to meet and agree.

You complain about the WORLD, but you start your post in disagreement with my post, but your argument has nothing to do with what I said and my argument was not in opposition to what you said. But you found where to pick up an argument. The WORLD would be a better place if we will see that there is more colors than Black and White and more trues than WHAT I THINK. Same applies to Dressage. Same applies to this thread.

I think we all agree that spurs used by someone that has no control of their legs is not a good idea. But then we all have different opinions about when to use them and how. Who is right and who is wrong. Everyone is right as long as you are not hurting your horse. Everyone has a style of riding and a differen opinion about the instruments and also a different way to used, for example:

- The size of whips were reduced to avoid abuse ti the horses. Do you think that who wants to really beat a horse finds the lenght of the whip as an obstacle, I don't think so. I have seen people beat horses with a short bat.
In my opinion a longer whip is better, because riders will pull less on the mouth of their horses while trying to use the whip;

- The other day someone was visiting at the barn and noticed that I was ready to ride a horse and I was carrying two whips and this person made a comment" "wow that horse is in trouble". I thought that was weird, why riding with two whips would mean trouble. I always ride with two whips, because if I have two seat bones, two legs and two arms, why not taking two whips. In my mind I don't do it to hit the horse twice many times, is just, so I would not have to swith the whip from hand to hand and maybe be to late in my use of the whip.

- Smaller spurs are softer on the horse? In my opinion no. I find that the shorter the spur the more the rider has to turn the leg to used, causing different balance problems, that are compensated in other ways. My opinon is that a longer spur allows the rider to give a soft tap with less turn of the leg, being less intrusive in the overall balance;

And like this we can have a lot more examples. I don't think that my way of thinking is the only and correct solution. But for sure works for my style of riding and I think is correct because above all as a principle I don't abuse or hurt my horses. Someone might have a different theory or style and I am sure that they are also right as long as it suits their riding style and they don't hurt or abuse their horses.

A WORLD full with different colors, everyone as important as the other.

marion
Jan. 14, 2007, 04:42 PM
I was very saddened for the horses that must tolerate this abuse for their meals. The poor schoolmasters that have paid their dues and are willing teachers must work with riders that cannot communicate correctly.
I was taught to "earn my spurs." Small phrase with alot of meaning.
Thank God there are instructors like ESG and Kasette that stand by their principles of correct training.
I would make it my mission to give that "spur barn" a bad reputation. The trainer needs to refelct on the well-being of the horse and the education of the rider.

EqTrainer
Jan. 14, 2007, 06:51 PM
really? i think that there are *some* few folks that don't really care, but i think most ammies (young and old) dont want to hurt their horses. they love them. if you told them eye to eye what they were doing my bet is they would cry and feel horrid. i can only hope that once they had the info they would change what they were doing.....

Well, I have told them, and they don't care. Yes, they may have cried (I can be rather unpleasant) and they may have felt horride but...

They Have A Goal. They Need To Get Things Done.

Don't you know, all FEI level riders wear spurs. Since that is their goal, they need to wear them, too :rolleyes: And a derby, at training level ;) but I digress.

Don't fool yourself... for wayyyyy too many people, the horse is incidental.

--

I read a lovely post by Thomas Ritter on the value of being a GOOD first level rider versus a shitty GP rider.. I need to find it and ask him if I can repost it here. It was stunning, and should be required reading!

Equus34
Jan. 14, 2007, 07:02 PM
Here, Here, I agree with you whole heartedly. If the leg is good then a spur can be used to enhance the leg aid, but if the leg is not good neither type of spur should be used.

kaluha2
Jan. 14, 2007, 08:40 PM
Honestly, seriously, the clinician never stopped the clinic and demanded everyone take off the spurs???

Did anyone question why these horses had to be tormented by these "riders" and their "trainer" with spurs attached to legs that are all over the place?

Why is this? Why did no one raise hell over this? The need to be "nice"? The need to not upset the apple cart even at the expense of the animal?

Am I the only one that feels it was the clinicians duty and responsibility to educate these riders about riding with a correct leg and strengthening that leg so it is not abusive to the horse ?

Am I just living in the past when a trainer would pull you off of a horse for being abusive?

WTH???

ToN Farm
Jan. 14, 2007, 09:07 PM
This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.

west5
Jan. 14, 2007, 09:25 PM
I'm not sure why riders won't take responsibility for themselves.

I know my leg isn't always great. I rarely wear spurs. When I go somewhere new to ride and the trainer says "everyone rides that horse in spurs" I reply "not me".

For those of us who are adults, we should be able to tell (or at least admit) when "we" are the problem, not the horse!

In the right hands, well really legs, they are a great tool.

DieBlaueReiterin
Jan. 14, 2007, 10:00 PM
really? i think that there are *some* few folks that don't really care, but i think most ammies (young and old) dont want to hurt their horses. they love them. if you told them eye to eye what they were doing my bet is they would cry and feel horrid. i can only hope that once they had the info they would change what they were doing.....

i have to say it's been my experience teaching in several disciplines that this is not true. people may think they "love" their horses, but very few actually put the horse first. i've told people over and over, your horse is lame. that's not a 2 handed bit. you're hurting him when you do that. people don't care, they have their goals and the horse is just their vehicle to get there, like a skier's skis or a tennis player's racket. the horse's feelings don't count.

P.R.E.
Jan. 14, 2007, 10:02 PM
This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.

Exactly.

But some people have so much anger inside them, that seems like they are reading the forum waiting for an opportunity to be upset with someone. To make their "mission in life" to descredit certain barn, based on the opinion of one person.

Having the time and the health to "make your mission in life" descredeting some barn, because in someone's opinion a rider was to strong with the leg! or because and amateur rider was not riding a Schoolmaster correctly! 18.000 children die of hunger every day, how about that for something you can make your mission in life!!

Sabine
Jan. 14, 2007, 10:33 PM
Great Posts by EQtrainer and PRE- although some friction- nothing to worry about- I am in agreement with both of you- although PRE- I would suggest riding with NO whip and using fine signals, more walk work and 'tuning' - it works magically!

Spurs are a great tool for the accomplished rider that has a good solid independent seat and knows how to 'flick' them and use them as needed - WHEN needed. no clinic or schooling should be based on the presence of gadgets....as a trainer you must have the ability to tune your horses body to your body...that's all!!

TOday- while I was riding - in a extremely and unusually cold southern california climate, a mini-eddy *tiny tournado style wind tunnel * built behind my horse, full of dry leaves, and spooked my horse big time...the effects were magical- although he set off with a major spin, buck- what came after was heavenly bliss of energy- nothing a spur or whip would ever produce...so look at it this way- it's all about good energy and you have to find a way to create it!!

AllWeatherGal
Jan. 14, 2007, 11:00 PM
You complain about the WORLD, but you start your post in disagreement with my post, but your argument has nothing to do with what I said and my argument was not in opposition to what you said. But you found where to pick up an argument. The WORLD would be a better place if we will see that there is more colors than Black and White and more trues than WHAT I THINK. Same applies to Dressage. Same applies to this thread.



Uh ... hmn ... well ... ahh ...

Actually, I meant to be posting in AGREEMENT with you. I didn't learn the way you did, but when I finally got down to working with someone who "fixed" a bunch of my problems, it was much as you describe.

I wasn't complaining about the world. Or didn't mean to be ... just pointing out that the situation is not limited to dressage riders ... it's ubiquitous.

I'm sorry if my post appeared contentious our argumentative. That was not my intention.

Speedy Alice
Jan. 14, 2007, 11:17 PM
This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.
Exactly.

But some people have so much anger inside them, that seems like they are reading the forum waiting for an opportunity to be upset with someone. To make their "mission in life" to descredit certain barn, based on the opinion of one person.

Having the time and the health to "make your mission in life" descredeting some barn, because in someone's opinion a rider was to strong with the leg! or because and amateur rider was not riding a Schoolmaster correctly! 18.000 children die of hunger every day, how about that for something you can make your mission in life!!

Thanks for your common sense posts!

I was the clinic organizer. When I saw EE's post, I thought she had to be referring to another clinic. Spur abuse?!? Not even close (in my opinion, and the opinion of the clinician, an SRS Bereiter). I realize people have different interpretations of what they see, but "spur abuse" is a bit dumbfounding to me.

EE, I'd like to address a few of your comments:

My impression is that you don't like the trainer (clinic was at her barn) and were looking for anything to criticize. It's too bad that the clinician got caught in your crossfire and that you couldn't find anything positive to say about him or the clinic. Your making him out to be a clinician that wasn't competent... sorry if I get defensive, but I and an awful lot of other people couldn't find much to fault him for.

He might be one of the younger Bereiters, but he's been at the SRS for 13 years. That right there is more experience in training and teaching than most professionals get in their lifetime. And hey, it's correct training and teaching..how about that. If there'd been abuse of any kind, he would have stopped it. Hell, *I* would have stopped it.

RE: the schedule and "most of the riders" being listed as 2nd level and above... there were 10 riders on Friday, the day you were there. 2 were listed at Training, 3 at First (one at First/Second), 2 at Second, 2 at Third, and one at FEI. That's hardly "most" of the riders being listed at 2nd or above.

RE: the beautiful FEI Schoolmaster and the "3rd" Level rider... the fact that this was 'way too much horse for her, and that she was not a 3rd level rider was not lost on the clinician. The horse wasn't in misery... he also wasn't through, connected and working very hard, that's for sure... he knows he doesn't have to. I tried to put myself in her shoes... how would I feel if I had a horse like that and couldn't make him look the way he's supposed to look? She has a lot of pressure to live up to. She loves him and is doing the best she can. Frankly, I'm not going to get too upset over the fact that she doesn't ride him as a 3rd Level rider.

RE: your comment that his English wasn't very good - I haven't gone through all the evaluations yet (I hope you filled one out... if not, I can email you one), but he has so far received high ratings for being easy to understand, and there were many comments about his excellent English. The translator who was there to help if needed commented about his English and how good it was. He never stopped talking with the riders and aside from occasionally asking for help to further clarify a point he was trying to make, the consensus is that he did an outstanding job with RE: communicating clearly.

RE: the trainer making her horse go forward and almost running the clinician over... all I will say is that this horse has issues and the owner is very upset and sad about them. This past summer, the horse was doing beautiful 3rd Level work, and now is not. She is frustrated and therefore perhaps isn't as patient as she might otherwise be. None of us likes to be in that position, but I'll bet many of us can relate, whether it's with horses, children, pets, relatives, etc. The following day the clinician rode the horse for 15 minutes, got off, and said, "Give her a long break... a long time off of work." Please don't tell me that this clinician has any hesitation to do what he feels is in the best interest of the horse.

The clinician was fabulous. He insisted on correct basics - if upper level horses weren't forward, they didn't do upper level movements. He rode the FEI Lipizzan on Sat - this is a horse who consistently scores in the 60s. We were expecting to see P & P, canter pirouettes, etc. Instead, he rode precise circles and figures, a little half-pass, a million walk-trot transitions, and some reinback, all at a very rhythmic sitting trot, for about 20 minutes. Never cantered. He was so focused that the audience was pulled into his focus - it was absolutely quiet (this is with about 50 people watching). He finished with trotting stretchy circles. He told the owner that the stallion was missing in his basics... he was leaning and needed to transfer more weight to the hindquarters. That until this was accomplished, he should not do upper level work. The good thing is that the owner agreed - she was very happy with the instruction she got.

He was encouraging, kind, and if there were issues that might be embarrassing to the rider, he talked with them in private about it.

Overall the evaluations were glowing, the riders happy, and the horses improved.

Um, what else?

Oh - your comment in another thread about him not being above taking "shortcuts", i.e. riding behind the vertical. I'm not a proponent of deep riding. After being told by several Bereiters (three of whom have worked with my horse, and one who is an "old guard"), as well as my trainer, who doesn't believe in shortcuts, either, that due to my horse's conformation, he initially needs to be worked slightly behind the vertical to bring his back up, and also seeing how my horse improves when I do this (I'm talking a few seconds at a time), I tend to believe them. They said that BTV is not correct... normally they do not do this. They would not do this with young horses or horses with no issues. But sometimes, with certain conformation, it is necessary initially to bring the back up. I'm not talking Rollkur or deeply BTV. Implying that he's taking shortcuts - no one who watched him during the 4 days would believe that.

You can't please everyone, but we sure tried, although I probably shouldn't feel too bad for not pleasing someone who feels an SRS Bereiter doesn't meet her standards.

Sabine
Jan. 14, 2007, 11:45 PM
Speedy Alice- I am not anywhere near you - nor did I follow all the details of this thread- but I compliment you on organizing a good clinic and helping more folks to see a good trainer and teacher in action. I think EE needs to chill a bit and ride more!! there is no perfect answer for everything and riding a horse btv for a focussed and effective warmup - goes a long way to teach him how to work well and stay healthy for a long riding life...

Clinics and organizing them is a thankless job and I think you need to be applauded for making this happen for folks that otherwise would not have that experience- even if it takes them a while to really understand all the details.

I hope this does not deter you from doing it again!

Speedy Alice
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:16 AM
Sabine - thanks!

I love organizing clinics and hope to do many more in the future. This is the 2nd SRS clinic I've organized, and part of the reason I do them is because I passionately believe in what they do and how they teach, ride, and treat horses... I'd love as many people as possible to be exposed to this type of riding and instruction.

My goal in clinic organizing (aside from the selfish motivation of having some instruction for myself!) is to provide the best possible experience for the auditors, riders, and clinician and keep everyone as happy and satisfied with their experience as possible.

Sometimes that can't always happen... once, he was speaking at the far end of the arena, mic off, with the rider for a number of minutes. An auditor asked if I could have them come to where the auditors were so they could hear. My reply was that sometimes the clinician and rider don't want the auditors to hear... sometimes what the clinician was saying was something that the rider herself didn't particularly want to hear, and in those situations, I leave that entirely up to his discretion.

So unfortunately it isn't always possible to know everything that's going on with a particular horse and rider, and the background or issues that they have. It also isn't possible to know everything that the clinician tells a rider, either during the lesson or afterwards. Esp in those cases, it's understandable that someone not knowing all the facts could draw erroneous conclusions.

I often don't accept at face value everything people tell me, and I'll question things I don't understand or don't trust. But in the case of the SRS Bereiters I've met, I trust that any instruction or advice they are giving me is gold, and I can't say that about a lot of things.

So - more clinics to come this summer. :)

sherie
Jan. 15, 2007, 02:56 AM
Well, here I go gain "treading on thin ice" again at my barn for being so brash as to question the value of doubles and draws but, here goes. I think we seem to live in a fast food nation where many riders want to pit their education in the microwave instead of the coventional oven so to speak. When you can buy friends and beauty, esp. in so.cal., why not buy you place at fei? I saw a lady on her schoolmaster, whom her trainer rode up ubtil the minyte before her ride time, do a volte on the wrong lead and was pleased as punch when she looked down to change leads and voila! she didn't have to! How convenient!She and her $$ bounced from Olympic trainer to the next and has since disappeared.At my stable, trainers have most of their students in draws and spurs. I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don't know how to tech or they think you're a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings. Yeah, I get frustrated, but it just means I have to illuminate the training scale and its application in ways the individual can relate to it. I'm never bored! There is no substitutefor repetition with positive reinforcement for getting a horse forward. And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don't talk to me anyway!!

kaluha2
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:27 AM
Speedy Alice: As Paul Harvey use to say, "And now for the rest of the story".

Thanks.

egontoast
Jan. 15, 2007, 05:30 AM
Thanks for posting, Speedy. These "Appalling Abuse!!" stories always make me wonder what the person actually saw.


You can't please everyone, but we sure tried, although I probably shouldn't feel too bad for not pleasing someone who feels an SRS Bereiter doesn't meet her standards.

No kidding. Not even Kottas is up to the standards of the keyboard classicists (on another thread).

Bogey2
Jan. 15, 2007, 06:54 AM
I am going to be very honest, in all my years of riding, attending shows, clinics etc. I have only seen spur marks on two horse. One was an eventers horse who was in a dressage lesson and she showed up with the spur mark...the other was a hunter rider and it was more of a rub from a round ended spur.

So I don't think it's so wide spread that there should be an uprising in the dressage community.

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 10:05 AM
Personally, I think there is a nationwide issue with people NOT getting their horse responsive to their seat. In my opinion, there should be no need for whips or spurs if the horse is truly on the aids. And this fault falls on the shoulders of the trainers/instructors.

I've seen way too many folks who, to put it simply, are overhorsed. The reason I say this is because at a recent clinic with a past Olympian, 8 of the 9 horses were WBs (most imported). The non-WB was a TB. The clinician essentially had to get on each horse (except for the TB) and resensitize it to the riders seat. Each rider had been working in spurs, which caused the horse to tense even more.

And the most interesting part to me was that the highest trained horses (those at PSG, I2, etc.) were the ones that put up the biggest fight about having to move off the rider's seat. By fight I mean some pretty serious rearing, bucking, and spinning. The sad part was that it became obvious that the AA riders, good as they were, were too intimidated by their horses to ride through the bucks and rears. The clinician did a wonderful job of staying quiet and keeping calm persistence in asking the horse to "move off my seat NOW." Sadly, I do wonder how long the AAs will be able to keep their horses "off the seat" after the clinic.

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:14 PM
At my stable, trainers have most of their students in draws and spurs. I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don't know how to tech or they think you're a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings. Yeah, I get frustrated, but it just means I have to illuminate the training scale and its application in ways the individual can relate to it. I'm never bored! There is no substitutefor repetition with positive reinforcement for getting a horse forward. And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don't talk to me anyway!!

I tell my friends, that there are some people in dressage that are psychics and they know exactly what other people are thinking and without any doubt they know why they do what they do. Personally I think that these psychics are "hopeless morons and not worthy of my time".

I don't blame the queens for not talking to you, you are so bitter and full of absolutes, that I would not talk to you either, I would be afraid of doing it.

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:15 PM
Personally, I think there is a nationwide issue with people NOT getting their horse responsive to their seat. In my opinion, there should be no need for whips or spurs if the horse is truly on the aids. And this fault falls on the shoulders of the trainers/instructors.


So in your opinion the horses of the SRS are not truly on the AIDS?

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:19 PM
So in your opinion the horses of the SRS are not truly on the AIDS?

Wow...talk about reading your own meaning into a comment. ;)

There is a difference between a rider who wears a spur and rides off their seat (ala SRS) and a rider who wears a spur because their horse ignores them. I think the SRS does it right! Their beginners learn to ride completely from the seat on the lunge before ever learning about reins, etc. :) I think that's great and find it unfortunate that most people (myself included) weren't able to learn to ride this way (on the lunge, learning to control the horse from the seat).

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:26 PM
There is a difference between a rider who wears a spur and rides off their seat (ala SRS) and a rider who wears a spur because their horse ignores them. I think the SRS does it right! Their beginners learn to ride completely from the seat on the lunge before ever learning about reins, etc. :) I think that's great and find it unfortunate that most people (myself included) weren't able to learn to ride this way (on the lunge, learning to control the horse from the seat).

That was not your original argument, your original argument was about everyone:

"In my opinion, there should be no need for whips or spurs if the horse is truly on the aids."

That is one of the problems we have, generalization. People see something they don't like and they make an argument that includes everyone, guilty or not.

Don't you agree that if the horse is "truly" on the aids, that talks about the quality of the rider and that would mean that in most (not necessarily all) cases, that rider would have the skill to wear spurs and carry a whip?

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:28 PM
Absolutely, but that quality of a rider won't need to use them...so why wear them?? ;)

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 12:31 PM
Absolutely, but that quality of a rider won't need to use them...so why wear them?? ;)

Why they wear them at the SRS? because having the horse perfectly on the aids has nothing to do with wearing spurs or a whip. If you are correct rider, spurs and whip are there for more refined and on time aids.

Brady'smom
Jan. 15, 2007, 01:04 PM
Thanks for your common sense posts!


The clinician was fabulous. He insisted on correct basics - if upper level horses weren't forward, they didn't do upper level movements. He rode the FEI Lipizzan on Sat - this is a horse who consistently scores in the 60s. We were expecting to see P & P, canter pirouettes, etc. Instead, he rode precise circles and figures, a little half-pass, a million walk-trot transitions, and some reinback, all at a very rhythmic sitting trot, for about 20 minutes. Never cantered. He was so focused that the audience was pulled into his focus - it was absolutely quiet (this is with about 50 people watching). He finished with trotting stretchy circles. He told the owner that the stallion was missing in his basics... he was leaning and needed to transfer more weight to the hindquarters. That until this was accomplished, he should not do upper level work. The good thing is that the owner agreed - she was very happy with the instruction she got.

He was encouraging, kind, and if there were issues that might be embarrassing to the rider, he talked with them in private about it.



This sounds like an instructor so much after my own heart.

I was starting to wonder what was going on in the riding world, where instructors were doing what too many teachers of human children do - passing the kiddies through to graduation only to find the students couldn't read their own diploma.

This instructor saw that this horse was not yet ready to be doing what he was doing, and needed to come back and develop stronger foundationals.

Not only that, but it sounds too as though he took the time to explain not only to a group, but to individuals. Excellent. That's what I'd pay for!

Every student of any school needs encouragement along with a correction that is explanatory.

We must not demand a performance of an action without the student understanding the why as well as the what and how. Unless we are instructing a toddler (who doesn't yet have the capacity to reason things out) we give the reason behind the directions. The rider then becomes a 'thinking rider', able to reason out a solution when an issue arises and the instructor is not beside them.

Brady'smom
Jan. 15, 2007, 01:31 PM
That was not your original argument, your original argument was about everyone:

"In my opinion, there should be no need for whips or spurs if the horse is truly on the aids."

That is one of the problems we have, generalization. People see something they don't like and they make an argument that includes everyone, guilty or not.

Don't you agree that if the horse is "truly" on the aids, that talks about the quality of the rider and that would mean that in most (not necessarily all) cases, that rider would have the skill to wear spurs and carry a whip?

Is there a smilie for scratching one's head??

If the horse is truly on the aids and completely attentive and obliging to the rider, why would that rider then need to wear spurs or carry a whip? The answer is they would not.

Are they mere decorations for the rider and horse at the apex of skill? (Pardon me, I also feel that if a horse can perform a movement in a snaffle, it should not be required to wear a double. It's useless gear.)

If we don accoutrements that serve no purpose, then they are decorations.

So when my new horse and I are finally of one accord years from now, I shall wear a purple ostrich feather on my top hat, since that too would be useless except as decoration. But it would be a true joy to me since I adore purple...

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 02:03 PM
If you are correct rider, spurs and whip are there for more refined and on time aids.

I guess I'm confused then because I was under the impression that a more refined aid meant that the horse was responsive to being ridden off the seat and weight of the rider. Shouldn't the order of aids go seat/leg/whip/spur (or spur/whip depending upon how you're taught)?

I'm scratching my head with Brady's Mom in that I have always been taught that the more refined and in tune the horse is to the aids, the less it should require spurs/whips to aid it. Therefore as the horse and rider become more in tune with each other, the spurs become mere decoration -- or perhaps only to show how quiet the leg is and how responsive the horse is to the seat. ;)

AllWeatherGal
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:16 PM
brandy's mom and horsepix ... do you guys do piaffe and passage with your horses?

1-tempis?

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:39 PM
Never intentially worked on P/P, but have gotten both just by inadvertantly overtensing my core muscles during collected work. Starting to think about tempis, but not yet singles. :)

I see where you're going with this, but I still question whether or not spurs are truly necessary. I really do think that they're mostly a decoration (or should be) at that level. If more than the seat is needed, shouldn't the leg alone be enough? I mean...if the horse can feel a fly on its side, does it really require a spur? Of course, I have a very sensitive horse too, which I'm sure biases my opinion. ;)

AllWeatherGal
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:43 PM
if the horse can feel a fly on its side, does it really require a spur? Of course, I have a very sensitive horse too, which I'm sure biases my opinion. ;)

Ah ha! Here-in lies the "rub".

Your spur, properly used, is a more refined as in SMALLER, more delicate, subtle and light aid than your seat or leg.

As you say, the lightest touch is all that's needed, so your seat and legs remain quiet while your spur gives the most imperceptible little noodge!

This has nothing to do with ya-hooo-git-along-little-dogie "spurring".

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:53 PM
As you say, the lightest touch is all that's needed, so your seat and legs remain quiet while your spur gives the most imperceptible little noodge!

But my point is that I don't even need to use my leg. Just a shift in the weight through my seat is enough. If the leg does move, it is as a result of the shift in my seat -- no conscious use of the leg. It is already imperceptible. :)

Are you suggesting that I will need more leg and that my horse will become less sensitized as I ride up the levels? I should hope this doesn't happen... :confused:

horsepix76
Jan. 15, 2007, 03:54 PM
And yahoo-gitty-up spurring wasn't what I was talking about before either...just that the riders that I see who *need* spurs had horses that totally ignored their seat and leg aids, giving the rider no choice but to use the spur (because they ALLOWED the horse to ignore their seat/leg). ;)

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 04:03 PM
Ah ha! Here-in lies the "rub".

Your spur, properly used, is a more refined as in SMALLER, more delicate, subtle and light aid than your seat or leg.

As you say, the lightest touch is all that's needed, so your seat and legs remain quiet while your spur gives the most imperceptible little noodge!

This has nothing to do with ya-hooo-git-along-little-dogie "spurring".

Thanks for explaining better than I do, still working in my use of the English language.

Tonja
Jan. 15, 2007, 04:55 PM
AllWeatherGal wrote:

Ah ha! Here-in lies the "rub".

Your spur, properly used, is a more refined as in SMALLER, more delicate, subtle and light aid than your seat or leg.
The continuous presence of the rider’s seat becomes a part of the horse’s back and allows the rider an infinitely broader range of subtly than the leg or spur. The leg and spur simply remind the horse to stay attuned to the rider’s seat.

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 05:32 PM
This is turning in to one of those "I am right and you don't know **** discussions" so I am going to get in my new pair boots, my just cleaned and shinny spurs and go and do some riding.

sm
Jan. 15, 2007, 05:42 PM
Christine Traurig had a nice response to this type of ride the OP describes, Traurig basically had one terse comment, then took rider and horse down the other side of arena (auditors were on the opposite side) and schooled the rider in basics.

All other rides there was commentary and interaction with the auditors, but this rider she kept to herself. A nice way to get information across to the rider without torturing the horse and making believe to everyone that everything is "okay dokay."

Atlantis
Jan. 15, 2007, 05:58 PM
The seat is not the only aid.

The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.

Elegante E
Jan. 15, 2007, 05:58 PM
Speedy - seems we attended different clinics because I was not the only one who thought the spurs shouldn't have been on such busy legs. I've also read your comments on another board about this clinic and was surprised that you included a description, a poor one I might add, of the person who chased her horse around the arena for her session. That person wasn't teaching her horse forward. The horse was moving in fear and tension, not once relaxing or swinging through. If the horse was in such a bad mental place, it shouldn't have been used for the clinic.

I have nothing against the trainer/barn owner as I've know her for a bit and think she is a very nice person. Do not put words in my mouth or attempt to read my mind as you obviously have no clue - about me or riding if you didn't see that slamming one's spurs into a horse with every stride is improper use of spurs.

Btw, you also failed to read that I wasn't slamming the clinic but posting questions about spurs and riding a school master.

I understand you put a lot of work into making this event happen but to color over obvious problems and make it sounds better than it was is disingenuous. Seriously, after watching the bereiter ride, how could you not see the riders who were visibly pushing their legs way off the horse, then jamming them back in? And if the bereiter didn't comment on it then it just says more about his lack of teaching skills. Oh and you also failed to notice that I mentioned I had only witnessed one day of the clinic so could not fully comment on the bereiter's skills as a coach.

Seriously, you and your cliquish cohorts can take your comments and stick them back in the deep, dark holes they came out of.

Atlantis
Jan. 15, 2007, 06:00 PM
The seat is not the only aid.

The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.

EqTrainer
Jan. 15, 2007, 07:10 PM
RE: the beautiful FEI Schoolmaster and the "3rd" Level rider... the fact that this was 'way too much horse for her, and that she was not a 3rd level rider was not lost on the clinician. The horse wasn't in misery... he also wasn't through, connected and working very hard, that's for sure... he knows he doesn't have to. I tried to put myself in her shoes... how would I feel if I had a horse like that and couldn't make him look the way he's supposed to look? She has a lot of pressure to live up to. She loves him and is doing the best she can. Frankly, I'm not going to get too upset over the fact that she doesn't ride him as a 3rd Level rider.

RE: the trainer making her horse go forward and almost running the clinician over... all I will say is that this horse has issues and the owner is very upset and sad about them. This past summer, the horse was doing beautiful 3rd Level work, and now is not. She is frustrated and therefore perhaps isn't as patient as she might otherwise be. None of us likes to be in that position, but I'll bet many of us can relate, whether it's with horses, children, pets, relatives, etc. The following day the clinician rode the horse for 15 minutes, got off, and said, "Give her a long break... a long time off of work." Please don't tell me that this clinician has any hesitation to do what he feels is in the best interest of the horse.



I snipped this for brevity.

Speedy, I am glad that it sounds like most people at your clinic were there for the right reasons and had a good experience, and that their horses did, too.

As far as the two people you refer to above, I hope someone has taken them aside and told them to grow up and get over themselves. Horses are the ultimate humblers, they don't care who you are or what you've done or what work they were doing last summer or in their life before you got them. It sounds to me like they are having a very hard time eating their pie. Everyone gets dished the same pie at one point or another, it's true.. but how you handle it makes or breaks you and your horse. I for one am glad that I was told to eat my pie (by my horses and my instructors!) when I was not necessarily hungry!

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 07:56 PM
Seriously, you and your cliquish cohorts can take your comments and stick them back in the deep, dark holes they came out of.

What a fine lady! I am sure you already know this, but in Spanish Elegante is a strong word, to refere to someone that not only is elegant but that has class. You should change your screename, because you are everything but Elegante.

If someone doesn't agree wit you, let's offend them and insult them. What a way of doing things!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:

egontoast
Jan. 15, 2007, 08:01 PM
Yes, muy elegante!

The mask fell...

Brady'smom
Jan. 15, 2007, 08:51 PM
The seat is not the only aid.

The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.

Atlantis -- Seat (fine adjustments of weight including repositioning or stilling any part of the body) and leg are legitimate, and I'd have to say the original aids (which we know would have included voice and sound cues).

As to "what's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?" that is exactly what I meant when I wrote if a horse can perform a movement in a snaffle, why wear a double. Of course in the best of worlds we could perform these movements without any gear at all. The concept shouldn't blow anyone's mind. Make the stretch. What else are we reaching for but the absolute minimum between ourselves and our mounts??

Of course we should strive to be at such a level of harmony with our horses that extra tools are not necessary to acheive results. Who would disagree? If you would, why?

To AllWeatherGal - when I sold my last horse as a five year old, we were doing two tempis up the center line with rhythm and pleasantness, a slight shift of weight and lift of rein being the only cue. We were working well at extension and beginning to work on some collection. I am not a person who rushes anything and thought him progressing well.

Piper then became a hunter who took reserves and champions in our humble provincial shows and then did well in Quebec on the A circuit the year following his sale (so I was told by his new owner).

The only reason I sold him was that I became ill and needed a kidney transplant - boo hoo for me, life can suck. I'm not saying this for any reason other than to explain why I haven't currently got a horse that P&Ps. I got over my illness somewhat, got a kidney, and after 6 years not in a saddle, got my current baby. I am lucky to have sat on his back at this stage, we are at this time long-reining and lunging. He has a history of a pmu life that included non-handling and near starvation. He is coming along. No rush. I am patient and self-preservation is my prime concern at my age and state.

For the record I have never worn a spur in my life. Why? Because with the horses I was blessed with, I didn't need a spur. Why wear what I don't need...

I did on occasion use a crop on days where my partners and I were not of a single mind, the days were crisp, the deer plentiful and friskiness abounded beyond a reasonable period. Perhaps not everyone is as lucky to ride animals such as I did, or, simply not as patient or observant during their horse's education.

Finally as to the clinic that began this thread, I will haul in both my praises and horns with some apology. I did not see it. But the descriptions have been interesting!!

Speedy Alice
Jan. 15, 2007, 08:52 PM
Speedy - seems we attended different clinics because I was not the only one who thought the spurs shouldn't have been on such busy legs.

You opened your post with "worst spur abuse I've seen in ages," stating that a trainer there had all of her students in roweled spurs and implying that they were raking the horses' sides and ramming their heels in. "Busy legs" isn't the same thing. Your statements started a landslide of comments RE: clinicians who allow such "abuse", who are afraid to say anything for fear of not making $$, etc. etc. The implication that this clinician would ignore such "abuse" is absurd and an insult to him.


I've also read your comments on another board about this clinic and was surprised that you included a description, a poor one I might add, of the person who chased her horse around the arena for her session.

Show me this "poor description." I've written no description - poor or otherwise - on another board about the person you claim "chased her horse around". You are not impressing me with the accuracy of your powers of observation.


I have nothing against the trainer/barn owner as I've know her for a bit and think she is a very nice person.

Oh yes, that was quite evident from your comments about her and her students. <cough>


Btw, you also failed to read that I wasn't slamming the clinic but posting questions about spurs and riding a school master.

No, you weren't. Otherwise, your "questions" wouldn't have contained the literary locutions that ignited such an outcry against an obviously clueless clinician. I'd do the rolling eyeball thingy here, but I don't know how.

And your "my final complaint about the clinic" comment about the schedule listing "most of the riders" at 2nd Level or above when it wasn't true - yeah, that didn't come across as slamming, either. Your comment in the Harald Bauer thread - same implication.


And if the bereiter didn't comment on it then it just says more about his lack of teaching skills.

This is funny.


Oh and you also failed to notice that I mentioned I had only witnessed one day of the clinic so could not fully comment on the bereiter's skills as a coach.

I noticed. I noticed it didn't stop you from drawing all kinds of erroneous conclusions, either.

Your comments about how he was young and his English wasn't very good... you're right, you didn't "fully" comment. You simply rattled off a string of sentences that made it seem as if he was inept, not able to express himself, etc. As I said, it's an insult to him. I find it interesting that you (and apparently your friend) are the only people I've heard from - and I have had a lot of evaluations turned in - who said his English wasn't very good.


Seriously, you and your cliquish cohorts can take your comments and stick them back in the deep, dark holes they came out of.

You're joking, right? "...cliquish cohorts..." With whom am I cohorting, again? "...deep, dark holes..."? Nice. I would have guessed you were in high school, except that I know better.

What a bitter person you must be. I understand your disappointment of not progressing more than you have, but the propensity to play the expert and act as if you know more than someone who's been at the SRS for 13 years is laughable, not to mention that the way that you did it is downright rude.

Hmmm, let's see... should I put more weight on what you think you saw, or what the SRS Bereiter saw? Tough choice.

Speedy Alice
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:03 PM
I snipped this for brevity.

Speedy, I am glad that it sounds like most people at your clinic were there for the right reasons and had a good experience, and that their horses did, too.

As far as the two people you refer to above, I hope someone has taken them aside and told them to grow up and get over themselves. Horses are the ultimate humblers, they don't care who you are or what you've done or what work they were doing last summer or in their life before you got them. It sounds to me like they are having a very hard time eating their pie. Everyone gets dished the same pie at one point or another, it's true.. but how you handle it makes or breaks you and your horse. I for one am glad that I was told to eat my pie (by my horses and my instructors!) when I was not necessarily hungry!

I understand what you're saying. RE: the person whom the Bereiter told to give her horse a long vacation - she said to me today in an email that nothing beautiful happens through force, and that beauty occurs when gifts are given freely between two spirits with the same goal. Really - I don't think she needs to be told to grow up and get over herself! She's had a tough time with this mare, had major disappointments, and is trying to figure it out and do the best she can. She was looking forward to this clinic to help her figure out what her horse was trying to tell her, and when the Bereiter said, "time off", she didn't hesitate or demur.

I don't think this thread did a particularly accurate job of portraying the riders in this clinic. ;)

Atlantis
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:07 PM
As to "what's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?" that is exactly what I meant when I wrote if a horse can perform a movement in a snaffle, why wear a double. Of course in the best of worlds we could perform these movements without any gear at all.

Well, this is a pretty fantasy at least.

However, as a trainer of GP horses, I can assure it is not very realistic. ;) That was my point, was to point out how unrealistic some of the dreamy posts on this thread have been.

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:08 PM
What a bitter person you must be. I understand your disappointment of not progressing more than you have, but the propensity to play the expert and act as if you know more than someone who's been at the SRS for 13 years is laughable, not to mention that the way that you did it is downright rude.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bluey
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:32 PM
The seat is not the only aid.

The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.

Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?:yes:

In the same vein, if another discipline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag

She also had another freestyle ride without anything, not even the saddle.
We can train horses any way we want, shows are standarized ways of measuring certain ways of training.

I don't know about today's SRS bereiters, but the ones many years ago were something to see, very accurate and correct, in the old tradition.

Abberlaze
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:44 PM
Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?:yes:

In the same vein, if another discipline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag

She also had another freestyle ride without anything, not even the saddle.
We can train horses any way we want, shows are standarized ways of measuring certain ways of training.

I don't know about today's SRS bereiters, but the ones many years ago were something to see, very accurate and correct, in the old tradition.

i would LOVE to see that dressage ride if you happen to know where there is a video of it. I am so incredibly impressed with the reiner's video and can only hope that one day i will come close to emulating her.

Erm, runing away from the rest of this discussion though....sounds....fiesty.

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 09:52 PM
Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?:yes:

In the same vein, if another discipline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag


The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?

Bluey
Jan. 15, 2007, 10:04 PM
---"The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?"---

We need to understand that other disciplines are different, not inherently "wrong".
She uses her legs in a different way than a dressage rider would think of using, of course, but don't be offended, she is not "spurring", her horses don't have any marks on them.;)
My post was not to say what is better or even adequate, but responding, properly, I think, to the remark of using different or even practically no aids to direct a horse.
Sorry it offended you.:confused:

Freddie Knie would cross his arms and do a whole series of Grand Prix routines, bareback. Impressive.
I don't know if there are some movies of that.

Abberlaze
Jan. 15, 2007, 10:17 PM
The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?

why is it cruelty to perform a sliding stop? many people would consider a piaffe or a passage cruelty and it would be to a horse that is not properly prepared and conditioned for it. same with them. this is going along the same thread as criticizing that which you don't understand. Learn about it before insulting it. This is not cruelty. And why is this middle-act simply because it is western????? Stacy Westfall is famous. She rides bridless AND saddless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6jLRg01w&mode=related&search= look at this horse lick his lips in the middle. how can that be construed as cruel riding? spurs are an aid for refinement in western same as english. guarantee you she is NOT abusing her horse.

the poster was making a great point that tack should not be our only influence over the horse. Yes, it has its place and is very important (duh) but to say that learning to ride in minimalist tack is wrong....that is just not right. yes there are problem horses. but that doesn't mean that can't be a goal to work towards, few have the finished product right away. just don't get hasty or satisfied with an unfinished product. If you CAN improve on it, DO so!

P.R.E.
Jan. 15, 2007, 10:40 PM
why is it cruelty to perform a sliding stop? many people would consider a piaffe or a passage cruelty and it would be to a horse that is not properly prepared and conditioned for it. same with them. this is going along the same thread as criticizing that which you don't understand. Learn about it before insulting it. This is not cruelty. And why is this middle-act simply because it is western????? Stacy Westfall is famous. She rides bridless AND saddless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6jLRg01w&mode=related&search= look at this horse lick his lips in the middle. how can that be construed as cruel riding? spurs are an aid for refinement in western same as english. guarantee you she is NOT abusing her horse.

the poster was making a great point that tack should not be our only influence over the horse. Yes, it has its place and is very important (duh) but to say that learning to ride in minimalist tack is wrong....that is just not right. yes there are problem horses. but that doesn't mean that can't be a goal to work towards, few have the finished product right away. just don't get hasty or satisfied with an unfinished product. If you CAN improve on it, DO so!

I am going to assume (maybe I am wrong) that you are a very young person, given you very emotional and aggressive response, specially regarding subjects that only exist in your mind and that i never said.
Take a breath, read my post again and let's have a conversation.

First, I never used the word "cruelty";
Second, please show me who did I insulted (before we continue our conversation, please answer this question)?;
Third, what makes you think that I am not familiar with reining? having an opinion different than other people, doesn't make me an ingnorant;
Four, from my point of view, is a middle act show, I don't care if it's western, or gaucho riding, is only my opinion.
Five, again "cruel riding", where did i said that?
Six, spurs are an aid for refinement, yes, if you would have read my posts, you would have found that I have said exactly the same. Read the posts, before rushing in to the discussion looking for a fight. Never the less, my point is that through the thread, example of refinement, have been done, making as a goal being able to ride with out spurs or even without a briddle. My comment regarding the spurs, goes in context with the discussion through this thread. This particular rider, yes is riding with out a briddle, but in order to keep control over the horse, she is still wearing spurs, so is not the best example of refinement.

To finish, I never said that the slides constitute crueltu, but in my opinion, they must be really hard on the hind legs of the horse. This is my opinion and the last time a checked, we live in the USA and I am entitled to that. the same way you are entitled to yours and I would fight to death for your right to disagree with me, but I would also fight to death for my right not to have a way of thinking imposed by other people.

After you breath and read the posts, to find out what I was talking about, it would be a pleasure to have a conversation.

Abberlaze
Jan. 15, 2007, 10:51 PM
whoa! deep breaths! talk about aggression ... that was my reply and i'm not going to waste further space on this thread restating it. I'm sorry you found it offensive, but read into it what you may.... ;)

egontoast
Jan. 16, 2007, 09:18 AM
"Clinic hell"? Even if you didn't like some of the riding. Clinic Hell?

More like " axe to grind" based on the comments made.

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 09:41 AM
"Clinic hell"? Even if you didn't like some of the riding. Clinic Hell?

More like " axe to grind" based on the comments made.


HOO HOO - LOL!

This whole thread has been quite a read, hasn't it? So many varied opinions. Add that there are specific folks who accuse everyone around them of reading into their comments and being aggressive in practically every post of theirs in every thread I ever read, and I just start to skip over those and get to the ones that AREN'T posted by them.

I do not say anyone's opinion is wrong. I DO say, wouldn't it be nice if...?

I DO encourage people to think for themselves, and sort out what is best for them.

I DO think people should reach for the stars, and they ARE reachable with understanding, humility, and willingness to learn.

Not every horse is a wonder to ride, but EVERY horse is a result of its breeding (nervous system, build, temperment), its environment, and its training.

If we can't afford the breeding we want or we can and the foal still isn't what we expected, then we should darn-well attempt to make it's environment and its training as conducive to perfection as we are able to. That means STUDY before you leap. Read books. Attend clinics with those whose methods and results of those methods you admire and who realistically can help you reach your goals -- don't go to Paris Hilton to learn morals (or singing for that matter) because all the flash in the world don't cut it when you get down to the gritty and it's all smoke and no substance.

We should all have the privilege during our lives of starting with a foal and making few mistakes with it (when hopefully a bond of trust already formed will help them forgive you and move on). That only comes with study of theory, experience, and some 'oops' along the way.

Spurs are not evil. Neither are they necessary.

My opinion. Since I've already been advised in this thread that I am entitled to have one (thankyou, oh-so-gracious giver of permissions) I will keep it.

The proof be in the pudding, puddin!

siegi b.
Jan. 16, 2007, 09:43 AM
Dear Bluey -

Freddie Knie was a circus rider.... and that's what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear....

Best,

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 10:19 AM
Seigi - I know you didn't address it to me, but for the record I personally did not mention any specific riders or videos as examples.

I know that this thread has gone way off topic, but since it has, and everyone seems ready to hop on for the ride --

WHY is training with the least amount of gear/no gear akin to 'circus riding'?

Is it because the circus is the most common place people seem to see horses working at liberty or without gear these days?

ALSO - why would we think that a person who trains without the same gear and methods as everyone else must be using methods that are incorrect/false/less-than-respectable?

Understanding and capitalizing on a horse's body language, herd instinct, ability to learn by repetition, and predator/prey reflexes is the foundation of training. It doesn't have to be done under a dressage saddle with a square pad in a double bridle.

There are always going to be different opinions on training and equipment.

The final proof is the supple, healthy, happy and obedient horse that responds to imperceptible aids, leaving others in its wake.

AllWeatherGal
Jan. 16, 2007, 10:30 AM
Dear Bluey -

Freddie Knie was a circus rider.... and that's what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear....

Best,

I guess someone had to point it out, sad tho it is.

In addition, when y'all are talking about dressage movements/exercises ... please, let's not forget the part about QUALITY?

When a little tap can say "a little more from here, please" when a finely nuanced seat aid might be misconstrued as one of any other nuanced seat aids ... well ...

I guess it's just easier on both me and the horse to use a few extra pieces of "decoration" and if that's a shortcut, then well ... seriously, we're both happier for it.

Bluey
Jan. 16, 2007, 10:30 AM
Dear Bluey -

Freddie Knie was a circus rider.... and that's what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear....

Best,

Do you consider the Spanish Riding School also be "circus riding"?
It is managed mainly for exhibitions, last I checked.

Freddie Knie did manage a circus, but his riding was very correct, even if the circus acts were what he made his living with and, last I checked, both are not mutually exclusive.

siegi b.
Jan. 16, 2007, 10:51 AM
Hi Brady's Mom,

I guess it all depends on what your goal is when it comes to riding.... If you are training to get to FEI level or to get on the US Team, using a bridle, saddle, etc. is the way to go. :-)

Sure you can ride without saddle and, maybe, if it's an older horse, just attaching lead lines to the halter will do, BUT I don't believe that anybody on this board will start an unbroken youngsters without any of those "gadgets". There is a common phenomenon where youngsters, once they've been in training for a while, love their new muscles and will test them at very inappropriate moments. You may call it "flight instinct", I call it "joie de vive". The point is that that will be one of many times when having a "gadget" will save your butt regardless of how "balanced" you and your horse are.

To me the very fact that you're sitting on a horse could be construed as "gadgetry" (is that a word??). Wouldn't it be much more desirable to have the horse perform all the tricks WITHOUT having to endure the weight of a rider? Keep in mind that the horse's spine physiologically is not a great weight carrier to begin with.

All I'm trying to say is that this argument over gadgets can take on silly proportions, and I would rather prefer not going there.

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:16 AM
Hey Seigi - you made me chuckle out loud and smile.
For sure I would not dream about getting on board my greenie without a saddle and bridle because I know he has the propulsion of a jet and no clue what restraint and 'respect for the rider' means at this age and stage.

I'm not advocating that all people should ride all horses with nothing. Training has to begin somewhere, and until it is well underway, the 'bond of friendship and trust' will not cut it 99% of the time. They are prey animals, and flight is the most common response to unknown/fearful stimulous (which we as mentioned capitalize on while we train).

Also I know that currently FEI requires saddle, double bridle, tails, top hat, all that regalia. It is the standard. Some of it is attractive to look at.

Question - who sets the standards, and how and when do they change?

Usually, when a better way can be found to perform a task, and someone is bold enough to walk away from the rest is when things change.

Lastly, I think the majority of things that a horse should be asked to do should be based on the logical need for a task (capriole, levade, piroutte, all were requirements of a battle-horse) or for the sheer beauty and pleasure of performing the movement. It should not be considered a trick if it has a useful purpose.

For something to be the most beautiful, it should be willingly done, with joy and without strain or injury, because we want to do it, not because we are forced to do it (with 'gagets' or unfair training methods). Much, much, MUCH work to reach that level. Don't know if I'll ever reach it, my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak. I can still try.

P.R.E.
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:20 AM
My opinion. Since I've already been advised in this thread that I am entitled to have one (thankyou, oh-so-gracious giver of permissions) I will keep it.



You are welcome my child!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:22 AM
You are welcome my child!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D

YOU SLAY ME!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

P.R.E.
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:28 AM
YOU SLAY ME!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

stay out of the cold and hope you have a great day :) :) ;)

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:32 AM
stay out of the cold and hope you have a great day :) :) ;)
I've gotta try and motivate myself to go out into that cold and the new 8 inches of snow we got last night (we had a green Christmas and new years) to do some more long-reining.

Thanks for the good wish, you too!

sherie
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:45 AM
Wow P.R.E.I shall assume you're just having a really bad day or somethin'.I'm not bitter in the least. Actually, It's really quite liberating to not care what others think so much and I'm actually sympathetic toward people who will never know the satisfaction of training their own horses the classical way. My frustration is mitigated by the fact that my median score this year was a73% and I won two year-end championships. These were all on horses under $12,000 and some were quite "fixer-uppers". I simply don't use spurs in the beginning and aschew draw reins unless I have a medical condition that would preclude my use of personal athleticism. I urge you to exercise your right NOT to talk to people like me. Make my day.and you have a good one..PLEASE....

P.R.E.
Jan. 16, 2007, 12:08 PM
I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don't know how to tech or they think you're a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings.

And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don't talk to me anyway!!

Am I the one having a bad day??:no: :no: :no:

siegi b.
Jan. 16, 2007, 12:56 PM
To Brady's Mom - The standards for what constitutes "correct" riding have evolved over many years with a lot it based on what the old masters wrote, at least as far as dressage is concerned. None of the so called "gadgets" are new inventions - people have used saddles, spurs, bridles, and whips all along, and I would venture to say that in general today's gadgets are much, much easier on the horse. There have been improvements in both riding and gadgets over the years, but again they were pretty much in keeping with the principles laid down by the old masters. One of the biggest improvements came when people started to breed better dressage horses.... With the advent of the dressage specialist, movements got bigger and more expressive and conformations more conducive to proper execution of movements.

The only reason I'm even writing this novel is to illustrate to you that in order to "change" these standards it's going to require a lot of effort proving that whatever the change is will, in fact, improve what's being done today. And it won't be something that happens overnight, but rather over the years if it's going to happen at all.

In the end, the folks that aren't happy with today's dressage can effect change, but only by leading with example... something I haven't seen yet. Talking/writing is cheap... you have to walk the walk.

Just my opinion....

Brady'smom
Jan. 16, 2007, 03:06 PM
The only reason I'm even writing this novel is to illustrate to you that in order to "change" these standards it's going to require a lot of effort proving that whatever the change is will, in fact, improve what's being done today. And it won't be something that happens overnight, but rather over the years if it's going to happen at all.

In the end, the folks that aren't happy with today's dressage can effect change, but only by leading with example... something I haven't seen yet. Talking/writing is cheap... you have to walk the walk.

Just my opinion....

Yup. I totally agree. To quote myself,

"Usually, when a better way can be found to perform a task, and someone is bold enough to walk away from the rest is when things change."
....and --
"Much, much, MUCH work [i have] to reach that level. Don't know if I'll ever reach it, my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak. I can still try."

As far as talk and writing being cheap, change begins with an idea and a theory in people's brains. I am sharing those ideas and seeking ways of reaching a goal.

Those who want to lead by example have to start or come from somewhere. Today's superstars were unknown folks with what may have been offbeat methods 10-15 years ago. Who heard of RK back then? Not many. It was certainly not mainstream, but now anky is the madonna of dressage for many - she can do no wrong in their eyes.

Lastly, some people also may not care to broadcast their certifications -- there is benefit to anonymity in that a broader and unvarnished range of opinions can be gathered.

sherie
Jan. 16, 2007, 05:22 PM
Apparently, you are. But from now on, if you have a personal problem with me, I suggest you make use of the p.m. system so as not to dilute this thread further. Though,since you can't possibly know me, I can't imagine what I've done to extract such venom from you.

P.R.E.
Jan. 16, 2007, 06:18 PM
Apparently, you are. But from now on, if you have a personal problem with me, I suggest you make use of the p.m. system so as not to dilute this thread further. Though,since you can't possibly know me, I can't imagine what I've done to extract such venom from you.

You can bash the other trainers in your barn, but I can't make a comment about you. By the way, I do know you and I have no personal problem with you, becaue I can't care less about you. I just find that your comments regarding your fellow trainers are very unkind and unprovoked.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 16, 2007, 06:58 PM
From a training level/first level rider, for what it's worth:

I have a sensitive OTTB. Great work ethic. I don't wear spurs. At some point, when my leg is sufficiently educated that the spur will act as a subtle, refining aid, I will then use them. Presumably we will then be doing the kinds of things that will require that.

Someone posted previously about the use of "artificial aids" and I mentioned that they were refinements, but they were the tools of an artist. I believe I have graduated from the finger painting stage to the Crayola crayon stage. That does not mean I should be picking up a rapidograph or expensive oils and screwing everything up. This goes for the schoolmaster issue as well. I have no more business getting on an FEI level horse, even a tolerant one, unless it's a quickie for a photo op.

I love my trainer. A few lessons back, she wanted more forward movement. And her comment was, "You are not asking for this because it is time to do hard work. You are asking for this because it is a better way for him to move, one that will strengthen him and lessen the liklihood of injury."

And that's how I try and ride. Thinking, "How do I make this better for my horse?" And the great thing is, it makes it better for me, too.

Bogey2
Jan. 16, 2007, 07:03 PM
Sherie, visit your thread on "misunderstood". You are coming on strong badmouthing your barnmates. Are you sure they misunderstood? Read some of the responses, you asked for them.

siegi b.
Jan. 16, 2007, 07:03 PM
To Brady's Mom - In my mind, belittling the current system in order to get changes started usually doesn't get results. Changes that are worth instituting should be able to stand on their own merit.

RK is a term that has many definitions judging from the numerous discussions on this BB alone. I don't think anybody has been able to quantify what constitutes an RK method that everybody agrees with, therefore, we're left with the long/deep description and as such, a concept that has been around for ages. What doesn't help is that this method has most recently been associated with a rider that consistently wins the BIG competitions, so there has been lots of exposure and press. Add a few fanatics that will try to incite the unsuspecting public with websites showing horses with their mouths wide open and close to their chests, and you have a perfect example of what today's internet/media can "accomplish" in very little time.

It now looks like the big RK debate is about to run its course and discussions are not nearly as prolific or heated anymore. Give it another six months and a lot of the more excitable folks will have found another cause to dissect via the internet.

Given the above, my question to you is as follows.... do you want to effect change in the way today's dressage horses are trained and subsequently judged, OR is this merely another exercise in RK bashing?

Best,

Siegi

mygenie
Jan. 16, 2007, 09:07 PM
...aschew....

Bless you....

I am sorry, I just had to do this...

siegi b.
Jan. 16, 2007, 10:34 PM
my genie - I just about fell out of my chair...!!!!!! You're too funny! :-)

Thanks, I needed that.

sherie
Jan. 16, 2007, 11:09 PM
Actually, P.R.E., you must NOT know me because I"ve NEVER made a comment about ANY of the trainers individually at my barn. You see, I work out of several stables and any comment regarding dressage theory isn't directed as apersonal attack towards anyone. I am very fond of ALL the trainers at All the stables and again, I suggest you stop trying to take things waaay to personally. Geez. I think divurgent theories can be discussed in a mature manner. Again, I will state that any example I have ever used is more of a composite rather than an individual. I respect my peers and their decisions.even if they're not mine. To take discussions presented here and turn them into fodder for gossip at the workplace is unethical and inappropriate. Why don't you p.m. me so I can clear up any misunderstandings you may have about my view.By the way, I KNOW it's "eschew" just a typo. WOW.

mygenie
Jan. 17, 2007, 01:43 AM
my genie - I just about fell out of my chair...!!!!!! You're too funny! :-)

Thanks, I needed that.

Ah, you are welcome any time :) I felt this thread, uh, needed something... :)

egontoast
Jan. 17, 2007, 05:46 AM
Perhaps this thread should be renamed

Auditor from Hell.

Brady'smom
Jan. 17, 2007, 02:33 PM
To Brady's Mom - In my mind, belittling the current system in order to get changes started usually doesn't get results. Changes that are worth instituting should be able to stand on their own merit.

RK is a term that has many definitions judging from the numerous discussions on this BB alone. I don't think anybody has been able to quantify what constitutes an RK method that everybody agrees with, therefore, we're left with the long/deep description and as such, a concept that has been around for ages. What doesn't help is that this method has most recently been associated with a rider that consistently wins the BIG competitions, so there has been lots of exposure and press. Add a few fanatics that will try to incite the unsuspecting public with websites showing horses with their mouths wide open and close to their chests, and you have a perfect example of what today's internet/media can "accomplish" in very little time.

It now looks like the big RK debate is about to run its course and discussions are not nearly as prolific or heated anymore. Give it another six months and a lot of the more excitable folks will have found another cause to dissect via the internet.

Given the above, my question to you is as follows.... do you want to effect change in the way today's dressage horses are trained and subsequently judged, OR is this merely another exercise in RK bashing?

Best,

Siegi


CRAP, no emoticon for 'what crack are you smoking??'

Where did I bash RK in ANY way in this thread??

My comment was "Today's superstars were unknown folks with what may have been offbeat methods 10-15 years ago. Who heard of RK back then? Not many. It was certainly not mainstream, but now anky is the madonna of dressage for many - she can do no wrong in their eyes."

That is not saying what anky is doing is wrong, or that her methods are wrong. (Personally I have never seen a video of RK where the horse's mouth is wide open, I have seen them with their lips glued to their chests.
It does NOT take a genius to realize that this makes it harder to breathe and is not anywhere near where a horse would naturally carry it.)

I DID say that some people follow anky's every move without question, which has been ALSO been demonstrated on this BB by those who take umbrage when anyone DARES to wonder at the method, or comment on it without the most glowing praise.

NEXT - where have I belittled anything? To belittle is to make small or insult someone's belief or way of doing things. I have not done this. I have said what I'd like to see, and WHAT IF....

God almighty, if a person says 'boy someday I wish we could all be happy without poverty and sickness' then I am thrashing present day society?

Get a grip.

To wish for something I and others believe is possible, and hope that it happens someday in the near or distant future, is not belittling what we have now. Recognizing something is not ideal is not calling it trash.

Throw any babies out with the bathwater lately?

siegi b.
Jan. 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
to Brady's Mom.... WOW!! All I can say after this is "when the shoe fits...."

I just didn't realize that you were doing any trying on....

Brady'smom
Jan. 17, 2007, 07:59 PM
I actually wasn't trying any shoes on.

I was asking what people thought about going barefoot, what the benefits were, if anyone else liked the feeling of freedom that comes without footwear.

Then someone jumped me, rammed a left-footed seven-inch jimmy choo spike on my right, and then condescendingly advised me that was what I'd demanded.

Huh? What car accident?

egontoast
Jan. 17, 2007, 08:31 PM
Off to google jimmy choo spike.

Down with the causeway!

Sabine
Jan. 18, 2007, 12:42 AM
Giorls- or better Ladies- I am a immigrant- so is Siegi- and let me tell you- as nice as this reads- it went straight over my head- like a 747 on take-off....I share your presumed feeling of confusion...(at least I am confused) but don't understand the half of it...sorry- anyone wanna give me some help...