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Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 10:54 PM
How lovely, just lovely is this??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE&mode=related&search=

Not Bonfire

fatwhitepony
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:02 PM
Just curious if anyone knows whose voice that is that makes the comment in English?

Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:07 PM
What comment?

fatwhitepony
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:23 PM
I think it's at least halfway through the video...he says something like "... world's greatest dressage rider..."

I am sure you realize what may come to follow when others get wind of this thread. I am, however, truly curious as to who said that comment! Other than that pondering I really have nothing to say ;)

Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:58 PM
I think that some are in the 'tired of hearing/seeing RK' crowd.

I believe the more we see of this "training/riding", the better. That is NOT dressage, IMHO.

I doubt any would try to tell us what a lovely picture it makes.

rainechyldes
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De0vL53EDgU


Couldn't resist, my bad. :)

KrazyTBMare
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De0vL53EDgU


Couldn't resist, my bad. :)


OMG... Too funny!!!! Though the guy in the black hat looked to get BTV a few times...??? lol

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:12 AM
Yah, that vid's been out along time. Mine, is new (at least to me).

physical.energy
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:21 AM
OHhhhhhhh, ninety nine bottles of beer on the wall,
ninety nine bottles of beer.
Ya take one down and pass it around then ya have
ninety eight bottles of beer on the wall.

Pass the chips and guac......:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :winkgrin:

CHOOOOOO CHOOOOO CHOOOOOO CHOOOOOO CHOOOOOO CHOOOOO
WOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo!

rainechyldes
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:27 AM
Actually I did watch the vid you posted with interest, I'm not one to overly critique anyone's riding, I've seen myself on video. It was an interesting watch-and I settled in to watch her competition ones that were right there too.
and I was just being silly with the one I posted, I blame it on the extra cup of coffee I had this evening *wink*

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:28 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think you are wrong here. I'm not looking for a wreck. It's more for instructional purposes.

And besides, I can't see many coming on here to defend/condone riding a horse like that, can you? :no:

indyblue
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:36 AM
Pretty sure thats Idool?I wonder what sort of abuse he had to suffer in the other 23.5hrs of his day.Im sure he had a 5 star lifestyle.
Having seen Anky warming up,another time training a horse in Rolkur in the flesh, I got to see the many breaks she gave it and pats.
Dalfan.This video has been around for years and to be honest I get more offended seeing obese people riding horses.

Sabine
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:50 AM
you've all just managed to prove Theo's point...what a joke...y'all get the chips off your shoulders and if you can passage a 17.3hd horse like that- make sure you post it on youtube...I would love to see it!!!

or join PE in the beer party- the wreck's already happened and noone got hurt....

sherie
Jan. 10, 2007, 02:36 AM
After watching the first vid., I watched the comp vid of Anky{ANky who?}.Being in a particularly introspective mood of my personality flaws of late, I watched first, as the typical me, finding every flaw possible, then again as someone who just truly enjoys the sheer beauty and enjoyment eminating from the pair. Hopefully, tomorrow, when I confront the day at Viper Pit Stables, I'll remember to look for the good, and focus on that. Rainbows and butterflies for everyone, right?

fargo
Jan. 10, 2007, 04:24 AM
Well this is really tiresome. This is a video that is years old and has been 'reviewed' time and time again on COTH and other boards.
I guess if you wait long enough you can start it 10 times over just like the threads about Salinero getting off at Aken.

Which reminds me, I promissed COTH that I would reopen that thread under a whole other name to discuss it yet another time.

MEP
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:02 AM
Which reminds me, I promissed COTH that I would reopen that thread under a whole other name to discuss it yet another time.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

raff
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:11 AM
I think that's Cocktail.You should see Anky training canter pirrouettes on him,fantastic.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 09:07 AM
and if you can passage a 17.3hd horse like that

Like what? Is that a GOOD passage to you? I guess it could be if she would let his chin come off his chest.

I haven't seen this vid. So I am newly disgusted seeing it for the first time.


I wonder what sort of abuse he had to suffer in the other 23.5hrs of his day

So that makes it OK. Interesting. Do you find the picture PRETTY, RELAXED, LOVELY?? Just curious.

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 09:32 AM
Why is it that people never tire of publicly character assassinating others?
Is this a favourite past time or some sort of illness?:no:

My question to you Dalfan is: Have you contacted Anky and told her how you feel?
Why do you feel it necessary to drag these old arguments out and yet I can guarantee that you have not gone to the source of your "OBSESSION" and let her know your feelings on her "EQUINE ABUSE".:confused:

How would you feel if someone posted a video of you on here and proceeded to rip you apart and publicly humiliate you?.

I agree with all the others, this is a train wreck waiting to happen and I hope there will be no more discussion entered into.

Danni

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 10:17 AM
Would you mix up Ahlerich and Biotop ?

This is Idool and not Bonfire.:confused:

Theo

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 10:21 AM
This is Idool and not Bonfire

I do believe I said this was NOT Bonfire:confused:

siegi b.
Jan. 10, 2007, 10:27 AM
Theo,

that's the point exactly.... Dalfan WOULD, in fact, get Ahlerich and Biotop mixed up. :-)

Groetjes,
Siegi

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:14 AM
Dalfan WOULD, in fact, get Ahlerich and Biotop mixed up. :-)

:lol: Hardly, my dear.


Why is it that people never tire of publicly character assassinating others?

Where is the character assasination? A critisism of a riding video in the public domain is hardly that.

Surely those that consider themselves knowledgable horsemen (regarding movement,gaits,conformation,etc) can see the tension, restriction in the shoulders preventing the hind from coming and just overall bad riding when "critiqueing" riding vids, no?

I mean, really now, can you deny it?

KateWooten
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:42 AM
errr, you guys have a lot of history together, right ? A lot of unresolved issues you should maybe either talk through or get over ? I've never seen this video before, and as such it is interesting to see, discuss, and learn. Though, obviously, I'm not about to stick my head up in this particular company to get shot at. So, for a novice, this particular learning opportunity is lost.

Dalfan, I think, stated that this is 'not Bonfire'. A useful comment, and certainly not a difficult one for you to understand, when applied to a video whose title states something to the effect that this is 'Anky' schooling 'Bonfire'.

Someone mentioned on another thread people using the reacting rather than the thinking side of their brains. Perhaps some of us need to go out, stretch, and exhale before we approach our horses today.

eqipoize
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:43 AM
Dal Fan, they CAN'T deny it, so they will deflect attention. Responses will include:
Can You Ride Grand Prix/Win a gold medal/passage like that?
Anky takes excellent care of her horses - she loves her horses - has a fantastic seat, great timing
It is just a moment in time - just a short video clip - she took breaks and rested the horse
You are just jealous, hate Anky, have a chip on your shoulder
This is a difficult horse to ride, and requires treatment like that to get that preformance
And there there will be a whole series of personal attacks on YOU - which has already begun.

What you will NOT get is any acknowledgement that the horses hocks are so far behind him that he has to occasionally bunny hop, the trot/piaffe/passage is extremely irregular, the 'bounce' comes from a pushing upward hip NOT an engaged hindquarter and they will NEVER admit the horse is so tense that his lips are quivering.

I am glad this video is up on the net again, since there are people who have NOT seen hyperflexion in action, and every time this video is put out there, Someone who was 'on the fence' will get out of the middle ground and realize that Hyperflexion training sometimes means sessions like this one. And there are some of us who do not think there is Any acceptable justification for this type of riding. Sometimes Wrong is Just Wrong.

kkj
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:44 AM
Dalfan the politics and slantedness of this thread seem much more severe than in Theos thread regarding Americans not being able to take criticism and riding without collection. This thread really screams Anky bashing.

Now, I don't like Rolkur and I am not an "Anky fan". However, honestly watching that video I was not outraged or screaming abuse. I do believe that the average horse in the US is abused worse every time it is ridden, by the rider with 50 extra lbs bouncing on its back, with the ill fitting heavy western saddle, with the uneducated reins popping it in the mouth, with the fool who owns it not knowing or caring that it is lame and unsuitable to be ridden, with the rider who has been riding for 10 plus years but never seems to progress. This video while not pretty was not abuse to me. Also, I have seen Anky ride in person a few times in competition and thought her riding was very graceful and in harmony with the horse.

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:53 AM
She looks like a veritable pogo stick up there :)

If anything positive is to be learned from watching that video, yet again, it is to watch the timing of the aids, particularly the leg aids.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:54 AM
And there there will be a whole series of personal attacks on YOU - which has already begun.

Well, Monica;Equipoze, WE know that won't phase me in the least.:winkgrin: :lol: I agree with your list of deflections the pro-rk always come up with. Just once I would like to hear one of them say what a correct and lovely picture this type of dressage makes.



the average horse in the US is abused worse every time it is ridden, by the rider with 50 extra lbs bouncing on its back, with the ill fitting heavy western saddle, with the uneducated reins popping it in the mouth, with the fool who owns it not knowing or caring that it is lame and unsuitable to be ridden, with the

I agree. However, I am a multi-tasker. I can have disdain/disgust for both.


to a video whose title states something to the effect that this is 'Anky' schooling 'Bonfire'.

Can't help what the vid says. I put "Not Bonfire" in my original post. Another deflection by some that close their eyes to the real issue.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:55 AM
If anything positive is to be learned from watching that video, yet again, it is to watch the timing of the aids, particularly the leg aids.

Possibly. But see that force she exerts with her back/hand. A lot of hand.

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:58 AM
Possibly. But see that force she exerts with her back/hand. A lot of hand.

Dalfan , please remove the link to the pictures of your riding abilities, and than I might start to take you serious:cool:

Theo

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 11:59 AM
So, for a novice, this particular learning opportunity is lost.

I'm curious. As a novice, what do you see in this video?

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:03 PM
Dalfan , please remove the link to the pictures of your riding abilities, and than I might start to take you serious

Is that really ALL you have to say about your hero? If you are posting on this thread, why not stay on topic. Another deflection from a mind in denial. Tell us what is good about the video in your opinion, being the knowledgable horseman you so claim to be.

I think I'll keep my photos up. I rather like them. :lol: Let's see you walk the talk:lol: Thanks for taking the time to look!

eqipoize
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:11 PM
Oh, I forgot the Other arguement
"There is SO much worse abuse in the world. Why worry about HF training!"
I Luff your 'I can multitask' response.
MY personal answer to the bad rider deflection is that the over weight rider bouncing along is NOT winning gold medals, and they are not Intentionally abusing or mistreaking their horse, and there is HOPE that they will improve over time. I also don't see a lot of people watching those sorts of riders and hoping to emulate them! So, while the effect on the horse is greater, the effect on All Horses is much much less.

This ought to be interesting - and we will see how long it gets before it ceases to be civil. I personally won't be taking part, or even get to watch. I have to fly to Ohio. No internet at the inlaws. But have fun youall!

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:15 PM
groaaaannnnn! This AGAIN????

I'm really not pro-RK or anti-RK... but I think its ridiculous that people post a link like this as "evidence" of how awful it all is. Granted, this is NOT one of Idool's better moments, but for pete's sake... he's schooling. He's clearly not relaxed and happy in the passage here, but who are YOU to say why that is? It could be for countless reasons, none of which may have to do with the RK. I've seen as much tension/tail wringing from many MANY horses who are never ridden RK.

If you have never had a horse swish his tail on you, or get tense, then I strongly believe you have never ridden to GP. Its easy to be principled and look down your nose at everyone when you've never had the challenges of training a horse to a really high level.

My goodness... with all the high horses around here, I'm amazed that you need that soapbox.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:16 PM
Theo, I now know why you ran into so much trouble with the "youtube" vid thread. Perhaps you gave someone a critique they didn't ask you for (you know, what you just did with my pics:winkgrin: ).

I usually don't ask for critiques from people who I am not sure has the knowledge to give me "correct" feedback.:lol: :D :winkgrin:

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:18 PM
He's clearly not relaxed and happy in the passage here, but who are YOU to say why that is? It could be for countless reasons, none of which may have to do with the RK.

The reason is quite obvious to me. The rider.

KateWooten
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:20 PM
ok, as a complete novice .... hmmm.. well, the horse is swishing his tail rather a lot isn't he ? And that means he's not happy, or is irritated by something ? I watched it through again, and started counting along to the trot, you know, kind of singing in rhythm to it, and there were very disctinct discontinuities in the rhythm ... I don't think that is a good thing. I think that rhythm is quite important, although I have to say, I haven't memorised that training scale thing, so perhaps rhythm is the last thing we aim for ? I'd have to look that up.

Now about the outline, frame ... well, the horse looked quite 'uphill' so that's good, right ? But his head tucked in like that - it certainly detracted from teh movement, he just looked all cramped up - not flowing ? I mighthave it all wrong, but I pictured dressage as being all free moving, flowing, graceful as well as high energy. This looked like energy wasbeing offered and immediately smashed back.

His little back hoofs the whole time are stamping up and down not covering any ground, in much the way my poor saddlebred filly's do, just before we found just how badly damaged her back is that makes her move like that. Aside from that, I can't tell. I don't think the horse looked happy. I don't think his movements looked smooth and flowing. I don't think he was given anything much of a release from the riders hands.

I guess, I didn't like it. I don't think it's a good idea for this to be something that us novices have to aim at.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:21 PM
This thread really screams Anky bashing.

No. RK analysis.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:23 PM
I don't think it's a good idea for this to be something that us novices have to aim at.

Thank God! All is NOT lost.

I appreciate your "novice" analysis.;)

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:23 PM
Look at the pictures you posted. And look at the tail of the horse.

This means fear !!!!

Theo

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:25 PM
Perfectly black and white response as usual Dalfan. How "inciteful" to point out that the horse is reacting to his rider. I wonder why you get so much pleasure at sitting in your kevlar trash can throwing stones at all the big guns?

Somehow, I suspect even your own horses would prefer to be ridden by Anky than by you.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:26 PM
Um...he's an ARAB. Now I know why I have my "little rule" regarding asking for "opinions".

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:28 PM
How perceptive Theo.

What, because he's an Arab(ian, actually), you're forgiven for making him tense enough that he swishes his tail? My goodness, I suspect you are rollkur-ing him in the back arena when no one is looking.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:29 PM
Somehow, I suspect even your own horses would prefer to be ridden by Anky than by you.

Come on now. Why the personal attacks? Can't think of any REASONED, LOGICAL justification for riding your horse like that?

That little arab would put you in the dirt if you tried a straighjacket on him:cool:

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:32 PM
What, because he's an Arab(ian, actually), you're forgiven for making him tense enough that he swishes his tail?

Is that really all you can come up with? You THINK he is swishing his tail. How utterly LAME. From a picture, at that.:eek: :lol: :lol:

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:37 PM
Um yeah, I can think of a reasoned logical justification for riding a horse like that... its called training.

It appears to me (and my oh-so-uneducated-eye) that Anky is focusing on getting the horses back up... and it also appears to me that she is being pretty successful at that. To the extent that the entire picture may not be beautiful, well, such is life. Horses often exhibit tension when they're being asked to do something HARD. It doesn't mean that its "too" hard. And it doesn't mean that we (as riders) shouldn't ask anyway. She's asking for something, getting a result, and then she pats him and stops asking. Sounds suspiciously like "training" to me.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:39 PM
I guess we will just have to disagree about what we are seeing.

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:40 PM
No, actually, if you look at almost EVERY ONE of the pictures of you and your Arabian, its clear that he is holding his tail in unusual positions (evidencing tension in his back).

But you're entitled to think that my opinion is worthless... your opinion surely doesn't carry any stock with me either.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:44 PM
Again with the tail! That's how he holds it. No tension. Considering your "analysis" of the vid, I am pretty sure you are NOT (IMHO) qualified to critique me (especially since I didn't ask you to). Heck, I have no way of knowing if you can complete a proper 20M circle or even execute a correct leg yield. Post some pics of you riding and I might change my mind.

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:46 PM
No, actually, if you look at almost EVERY ONE of the pictures of you and your Arabian, its clear that he is holding his tail in unusual positions (evidencing tension in his back).

But you're entitled to think that my opinion is worthless... your opinion surely doesn't carry any stock with me either.

Yes Rileyt, I have worked and lived on a stable with over 150 Arabians, and I can tell you this horse is scared or has pain somewhere. This is not normal.

Theo

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:49 PM
and I can tell you this horse is scared or has pain somewhere. This is not normal.

Well then, you MUST have opinion of the vid. You know, the TOPIC of this thread.

Your comment is so far off and extremely transparent. But, I digress.:lol:

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:49 PM
Again with the tail! That's how he holds it. No tension. Considering your "analysis" of the vid, I am pretty sure you are NOT (IMHO) qualified to critique me (especially since I didn't ask you to). Heck, I have no way of knowing if you can complete a proper 20M circle or even execute a correct leg yield. Post some pics of you riding and I might change my mind.

Couldn't help myself, I had to post again:eek:

You ask these questions YET you are offering critique of the BEST rider in the world.

What qualifies you to critique this video?

And please answer one of my original queries, have you contacted Anky direct with your critique of her training methods?

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:52 PM
You ask these questions YET you are offering critique of the BEST rider in the world.

But I don't consider her the best, IMHO. She is WINNING now. Doesn't make her the BEST. I suppose everyone has their favorite riders.

And I'm not talking about her position per say. I'm talking of her training methods.

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:54 PM
But I don't consider her the best, IMHO. She is WINNING now. Doesn't make her the BEST. I suppose everyone has their favorite riders.

Yes but don't you see?, you are contradicting yourself.
RileyT has made it clear that she doesn't consider you to be the best either, so what makes the two different?

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:57 PM
RileyT has made it clear that she doesn't consider you to be the best either, so what makes the two different?

I never said I was the "best" period. And technically it is quite off-topic to bring my pics into it. That's a page from their playbook. Deflect, deflect, if that doesn't work, personal attacks, still not working, insults.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 12:59 PM
Again my question - In this video, what do you like about it? Don't like? Can ANY of the pro-rk advocates answer that? I am truely curious.

lukas1987
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:01 PM
I think I'll keep my photos up. I rather like them. :lol: Let's see you walk the talk:lol: Thanks for taking the time to look!

In addition to the tail problem, there are the problems of the hollow back of the horse, flat frame, horse on the forehand, horse's hips high, and the rider hanging on the reins. Why the obsession with RK? Why post a video of a rider and critique her when you so obviously post pictures that you claim to like that show incorrect dressage? Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to work on your own riding than to criticize someone who is thousands of miles away?

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:03 PM
Agreed Theo. I have also worked with Arabians, and its not normal.

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:03 PM
Again my question - In this video, what do you like about it? Don't like? Can ANY of the pro-rk advocates answer that? I am truely curious.

Why do you have to be a RK advocate to disagree with your ideas of what is and isn't correct????:confused: :confused:

P.R.E.
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:05 PM
And please answer one of my original queries, have you contacted Anky direct with your critique of her training methods?

She doesn't need to, right or wrong, she is entitled to her opinion. In the case of Anky, she is a professional, riding in a public venue, like any other athlete, when you do that you have to accept the fact that the whole World maybe watching, that they are going to have an opinion and more important that the whole World is entitled to have an opinion, right or wrong. That is the price of fame and being a public figure.

Right or wrong, this is a Country were freedom of speech is a basic principle. Is sad to see, people who disagree with her, making cheap personal attacks instead of giving their "intelligent" arguments about why they agree a disagree.

lukas1987
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:05 PM
Why do you have to be a RK advocate to disagree with your ideas of what is and isn't correct????:confused: :confused:

Exactly.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:07 PM
In addition to the tail problem, there are the problems of the hollow back of the horse, flat frame, horse on the forehand, horse's hips high, and the rider hanging on the reins.

Everything that's in the vid. I just gotta laugh at this. :lol: :lol:

P.R.E.
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:08 PM
Yes but don't you see?, you are contradicting yourself.
RileyT has made it clear that she doesn't consider you to be the best either, so what makes the two different?

That Dalfan is giving an opinion, she is not saying that her opinion is the only opinion and that if you don't agree with her, you will go to hell!! That is the difference...

By the way I am not against riding round and deep, but I am against people intimidating other people and not allowing them to have an opinion.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:09 PM
making cheap personal attacks instead of giving their "intelligent" arguments about why they agree a disagree.

But that's all they have left to them to continue the argument. No real answering of the questions of what they see, why it's correct, and if they like the picture it presents.

class
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:31 PM
so to clarify:

any comment on dalfan's riding is a nasty personal attack on her.

any comment on anky's riding is nothing personal at all, it's only about the riding technique.

do i have that right? i feel so confused.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:32 PM
If those that conlcuded from my still pics that the arab's (not mine,btw) tail indicated tension and a whole multitude of sins, what say you all to the tail of the horse in the video. EGAWDS. Looks like a pogo-stick.:eek: :eek:

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:34 PM
so to clarify:

any comment on dalfan's riding is a nasty personal attack on her.

any comment on anky's riding is nothing personal at all, it's only about the riding technique.

do i have that right? i feel so confused.

Yes, you have it right (from Dalfan's perspective):yes:

Dalfan, have you contacted Anky yet??

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:36 PM
any comment on dalfan's riding is a nasty personal attack on her.

The topic of the thread was not about me. Some people chose to make it about my riding and pics to change the subject of the video, I guess. So be it. That to me shows what happens when someone is confronted with the ugliness that is RK.

Trust me, I know my own faults as a rider. I can see them every time I look at my pics. But how else is one to learn and try to fix them?

Dune
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:37 PM
Do you find the picture PRETTY, RELAXED, LOVELY?? .

I didn't realize that we had added to the training scale. :rolleyes:

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:38 PM
OK, so from now on no more critiques of horses and riders, right?

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:40 PM
I didn't realize that we had added to the training scale.

Didn't realize RK was either. But I don't think I mentioned the scale at all.

Dune
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:42 PM
Pretty sure thats Idool?
Having seen Anky warming up,another time training a horse in Rolkur in the flesh, I got to see the many breaks she gave it and pats.


Also wanted to add that I've seen her warm up this horse in a very crowded/busy covered arena on the buckle at the walk while he was oogling the goings on and she just let him take it all in. When he did spook/bolt at something she just turned it into an opportunity to get up off his back and hand gallop around the arena a bit to help him relax...all the while not taking up any contact. The lady has nerves of steel....:yes: The rest, I'm not getting drawn in...:no:

DanniS
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:42 PM
If someone asks for a critique then by all means give one.
But as I said if you contact Anky with your concerns and she gives you the go-ahead to rip her apart so be it.

If not don't attack someone if they have no right of reply

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:44 PM
For the horse sake quit the crap and focus on the fact that (in rest) the horse tail is between the legs, which is very un-natural. Copy these pics and send them to your trainer or vet, and they will tell you what's wrong.

Theo

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:47 PM
What people object to, Dalfan, is how you've picked a particular video (that has a lot of things going wrong in it) as a means of supporting your preconcieved notion that rollkur is "bad".

I'm not going to defend the video. Clearly there is a lot of things that AREN'T going right in it. But you're looking for the most one-sided view of this discussion... one that fits your idea of what is right and wrong.

As I said before... its schooling. Taking it as an example of Anky's riding, Idool's training, or rollkur in general is disingenuous and manipulative... not to mention, inaccurate.

Since you clearly are unable (or unwilling) to engage in a real discussion of the many grey areas of horse training (despite your protestations to the contrary), I'm not really interested in wasting my breath.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:48 PM
(in rest) the horse tail is between the legs, which is very un-natural.

Huh?? In rest?? where is the horse "in rest". Yess, a tail lies between the legs. What in the world are you talking about??

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 01:49 PM
is how you've picked a particular video (that has a lot of things going wrong in it) as a means of supporting your preconcieved notion that rollkur is "bad".

This one is not particularly worse than any other I've seen. All that I have seen are like this. Can you post a link to one that is not so bad?

reidsporthorses.nz
Jan. 10, 2007, 02:35 PM
<pops open a beer> where are the lawnchairs? i'm betting we've got at least 5 more pages to go.... :winkgrin:

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 02:38 PM
<pops open a beer> where are the lawnchairs? i'm betting we've got at least 5 more pages to go....

:lol: :lol: Not unless I put up a video of myself, then probably at least 10 more pages.:lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

Carol O
Jan. 10, 2007, 02:50 PM
First of all, I am so not offended by this schooling video. Secondly, who could clue us English only people as to what Anky's coach is saying?

Aunt Esther
Jan. 10, 2007, 03:22 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, cannot help but chime in and suggest that it is now indeed time for many members of this fine bulletin board to get a life. :yes:

indyblue
Jan. 10, 2007, 03:48 PM
Is that really ALL you have to say about your hero? If you are posting on this thread, why not stay on topic. Another deflection from a mind in denial. Tell us what is good about the video in your opinion, being the knowledgable horseman you so claim to be.

I think I'll keep my photos up. I rather like them. :lol: Let's see you walk the talk:lol: Thanks for taking the time to look!

Dalfan
You say its OK for you to critique Ankys video because it is public domain yet on the other hand you complain that people are criticising your riding (your photos are now public domain) because you didnt ask them to and anyone who has is not qualified enough.
What a shame Anky wont come and critique your pictures for you.If she did though Im sure she would be as positive as she could and as helpfull as she could.
If this really is a crusade in your life then you should do what some of the people on this board have done (myself included) and spend the money to go and watch her train in real life if you get the chance.The video of Idool I think is about 6 yrs old and from what Ive heard and SEEN their training has been toned down somewhat since then.Also Idool was a difficult horse that would of launched our novice arses into space.
Have you tried to correspond with her voicing your concerns because you might get a reply?Seriously why dont you send her an email ?
Your entitled to your opinion but please realise that so is everyone else.For myself, like I mentioned earlier, two of my crusades is is the incompatable pairing of weight of rider to size of horse and incorrect saddle fitting.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 04:07 PM
Well, I didn't technically consider them public domain, since only this BB can see them. Not on youtube. I think you may be right, though.

I asked some questions regarding what people see/think/feel regarding this method of training. No one really answered that.

So I guess that everyone that has a pic link is open to having their pics critiqued? You know this is not true. It was just an easy out (aka deflection)for those posting here who objected to the vid.

As RileyT stated, I happened to pick a really bad RK video to post. Can someone post a well-executed(proper) video of RK that they find acceptable?

Now, I will take Aunt Esthers advice and get back to tiling my backsplash.:confused:

kkj
Jan. 10, 2007, 04:37 PM
As RileyT stated, I happened to pick a really bad RK video to post. Can someone post a well-executed(proper) video of RK that they find acceptable?
:


If this is a "really bad RK video" I guess I don't have a problem with Rolkur after all. I just don't think this video is so bad. It does not offend me. Sure the horse is overflexed and tense and not moving so well behind, but it is not so bad. Again I think so much of what the average horse endures is worse than this. And I do think this point is significant because in life you gotta pick your battles. I feel so much sorrier for the horses that end up meat, or are ridden for years obviously lame and in pain, etc etc. Hell, I am a vegetarian and I feel sorrier for the cows and sheep that end up on your plate.

Honestly, watching this video made me think Rolkur is not as bad as I thought before (provided that this really is a really bad RK video).

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 04:53 PM
Just to make sure I'm not being misquoted, or misunderstood... I'm sure there are some REALLY scarey videos out there of novices attempting rollkur that are truly horrifying. I did not mean to put this video in that group. I am NOT horrified by this video.

I just wanted to point out that I'm sure there are "better" Rollkur videos where the tail swishing/tension is not as prevalent.

class
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:03 PM
I asked some questions regarding what people see/think/feel regarding this method of training. No one really answered that.

wow. really? you have no idea regarding what people see/think/feel regarding this method of training? where have you been?

here are some links to get you started, you may have to put the backsplash on hold for a 6 to 8 months if you want to get through all of these:

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93014
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=91663
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=84935
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=82963
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83949
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83791
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=82282
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74175
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=72272
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=70678
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=69163
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68838
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68888
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68346
http://www.ablackhorse.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3019
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68554 - hey, this thread was started by me! with the exact same video! in october 2005!

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68702
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=67907
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=66783
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65259
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=64820
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65006
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=64045
http://www.allege-ideal.com/
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63233
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62071
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36296
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50537
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49234
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48829
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44449
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=76714
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=69617
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=68527
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=65361
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=63699
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=59164
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=51358
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=50213
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=50054
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=50580
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=48104
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=47232
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=46846
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=35598
http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLIFEOnlineMagazineJune2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollkur
http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/fei/06-02-workshop.html
http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=67077
http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php?showtopic=4910
http://www.answers.com/topic/rollkur
http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/articles.html
http://www.myhorsefly.com/read/9/
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=121008050686899&ShowArticle_ID=121008050732993
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327604jaws0901_5
http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20060403uwespenlen030406.txt
http://forum.equisearch.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=14385&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
http://www.idrc.de/news/news_full.php?id=162
http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/bb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000073 - same video you posted here too, from July 2003!
http://www.equiery.com/archives/Dressage/RollKurDebate.html



sorry for the spam. but i didn't want to leave someone's opinion out! maybe there is someone on this board who has a brand new opinion that has never been expressed before and hopefully they will chime in here so we can get an even better idea of what people see/think/feel about rollkur.

eqipoize
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:23 PM
Because I must be crazy, and have to do Something while I eat lunch, I read All this tripe.

The difference between DalFan's post and the Attack by Theo on her photos is that Theo made the comments he made PURELY to attack and discredit DF's right to have an opinion.

I think PRE gets VERY HIGH MARKS for her commentary. She is Spot On. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you don't agree, fine. If you think they have No Basis for that opinion, Fine. If you want to discuss their opinion, and why you don't agree with it - that is fine too. You can say what YOUR opinion is, and justify it with any form of logical arguement you see fit. You can even make your opinion More Credible by showing how you are an 'expert witness' by giving your credentials. But it is NOT acceptable debate protocol to tell the opposition that they are Not Entitled to have an opinion because You don't think they are Good Enough.

This video IS old. It is from the Sydney olympics! But it was New to DalFan. It was one of the first videos that showed a Hyperflexion training session. It HORRIFIED many people. It does Not horrify everyone. Some people think that getting the back up - even at the cost of regularity, relaxation, and even any form of engagement - is a fair trade off. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice the training scale in this manner.

Finally, I HAVE to ask - Theo - what in the WORLD are you talking about???? Are we looking at the light colored horse (cremello or gray?) Because I do not see ANY fear in that horse. The tail is lifted, and even being swished a few times - but it is not clamped, nor rigid. I just have NO Clue what you are seeing. If that horse looks fearful to you, good heavens, what do you think of Idool's expression and body language??? In truth, if I were a moderator, I think I would have to repremand you for your posts on this thread. You took a touchy subject and turned it into a direct personal attack. "Bad Form" as Peter Pan and Hook would say!

So sorry I will miss the rest of this!

indyblue
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:23 PM
Thats alot of posts and I bet thats only half of them as well.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:26 PM
You're right. If I wanted to look up past posts to read what people see/feel/think about RK, my decorating projects would be on hold for quite some time. :)

And since I have never seen this particular video, I thought it was a good example of RK, which deserves to be seen. They all need to be seen.

Mozart
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:29 PM
For anyone tired of this particular discussion, alysheba has posted a you.tube video of Blue Horse Matinee's WEG Freestyle on the Offcourse forum. Watch it and weep.

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 05:29 PM
Are we looking at the light colored horse (cremello or gray?)

He's palomino - in winter.

Yes, I found it odd too that Theo keyed on a still pic of "my guy's" tail, but failed to mention the whirlybird tail of the vid horse. Intellectual dishonesty.

rileyt
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:05 PM
Its not about people not being permitted to express their opinion.

Its not about people wanting to have a genuine open-minded discussion of the pros/cons or RK.

Its about some of us being sick and tired of people (such as Dalfan) who post "attacks" (and yes, they're attacks, somewhat thinly disguised as "questions"), in an attitude that is holier than thou, when it is evident they have never ridden at the level they are attacking.

for me, some of my tiredness comes from Dalfan's other posts which show a condescending nature and a willingness to criticize and scoff at OTHER peoples methods/questions as being so clearly incorrect, when she herself has much to learn.

Newbies have every right to their opinion, and to post questions... but one would hope that they would temper it with an appropriate level of deference, (or at least tact) when they are discussing the riding/training of the current World champion.

siegi b.
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:27 PM
.. what rileyt said....

It also becomes abundantly clear that the likes of eqipoize/Monica and Dalfan are just looking for a new playground because they already have proliferated the UDDB with their verbal vomit.

Monica, we have Erin here to tell us how to play, so your "moderating" is neither wanted nor appropriate. Go bug somebody else you guys....

seal
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:32 PM
You ask these questions YET you are offering critique of the BEST rider in the world.

OK, now I am really confused.

I thought Guenther was the BEST rider in the world. :)

fargo
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:33 PM
If this thread is to analyze RK you should pick a recent one and not one that was taken in Sydney years and years ago. During a training and not a demonstration but a private training on a second horse that was with her to Sydney. I saw a training and demonstration with Idool in the year before he was sold and it was a great horse and they were really in tune with another. She started out with a very forward gallop/canter because, she said he really liked that before he got to work, after letting him blow of some steam she started her clinic slowly and relaxed. I think it's just a shame that people feel the need to try to "unmask" a rider, whichever rider it is as evil and make hidden videos.

If you had seen the original video you could hear (BUT not understand) the things Sjef Jansen said in Dutch. They are training the horse on reactions to the aid and he was saying that the hind leg was not active enough and other things that needed to improve because they were not up to his normal behavior and they were focussing on getting a more active response. But enough already.

goeslikestink
Jan. 10, 2007, 06:50 PM
ummmmmmmm -- read it all open some of the classes links but not all

my opnion -- in most cases most on a bb board are bods -- normal everyday people doing normal everyday things there are a few on the baord that are more than that and a few more that are higher than that and we mingal

those that are above and train to serious competitions - to that off everyday bod
like me but with me i have mingelled and rub schoulders with those that comepete at top notch and because i was taugh high classical dressage as beleive me there is a diffenrence --
i have to say this -- dalfan i like all people and enjoy meeting people as at the end of the day they are only men and women the same as you and me
but a bod as in normal things that people do to enjoy there horses at that level they are or can afford or capabale off- are just that unless you are exremtely talented or lucky or in most cases have the old money as it takes heaps of money to get to the top in any dispaline and have the confidence to follow it thorugh and a thoruogh understanding of that chosen disapline--

then they are worlds apart and that what makes them top notch people becuase they have it all going for them and understand and are capable of performing they have in there chosen disapline and that also applys to the horse ---

you also have to have a bit of showmanship -- to be able to perform and concentrate in apile of people and to take critics good and bad


to me i understand exactly whats the originnal video was about
perfection has to be trained and practice if there was a fault it has to become faultless sometimes one can feel sometimes one puts on a rider to see from the floor - or sometimes one gives those that help out ie grooms a taster of a go to learn to feel the horse and movement
to me altho in german it was telling the girl the right ways from the wrong ways -- of doing things as she only repeated an exercise of movement

and i anit got a flipping idea who they were
but i understood it as i saw it and saw nothing wrong other than someone telling someone to do something to make it better than before

what you do with your horses is up to you what they did with theres is up to them its there horses they have a home and a life and are fat and happy if it wasnt happy it wouldnt perform--


and i will say theres is heaps of mistakes in your web pages no doubt when i post there be heaps of mistakes in mine to -- but maybe thats becuase i cant afford the training that they have to better myself with orr maybe it becuase i dont ask for the pace movement in the correct manner so it doesnt follow though as it should --becuase i dont have enough knowledge to push that extra distance to get that perfect faultless movement

and that my dear freind is what amkes them worlds apart and world champions in there chosen disapline becuase they do ---

YoungFilly
Jan. 10, 2007, 07:01 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, cannot help but chime in and suggest that it is now indeed time for many members of this fine bulletin board to get a life. :yes:


I so totally agree. I can't even muster up the engery to even give an opinion on the topic. Can we find something else to talk about? Please?

Dalfan, btw, I think your horses are beautiful. :) And I don't think they look in pain or anything. :)

Horsedances
Jan. 10, 2007, 07:02 PM
I really thought that this was a Dutch habbit. On the world's biggest bulletin board called BOKT.NL somebody once started a thread about the statue Bonfire got (and earned). It ended up via the sex-life of Anky and Sjef in a hughe discussion about rabbits and rats.

What a world :confused: :mad:

Theo

eqipoize
Jan. 10, 2007, 07:27 PM
.. what rileyt said....

It also becomes abundantly clear that the likes of eqipoize/Monica and Dalfan are just looking for a new playground because they already have proliferated the UDDB with their verbal vomit.

Monica, we have Erin here to tell us how to play, so your "moderating" is neither wanted nor appropriate. Go bug somebody else you guys....

Siegi - could You please find a new phrase. You keep regurgitating your verbal vomit phrase any time someone says something you don't like.

I KNOW this bb has Erin, I simply said that IN MY OPINION Theo was out of line. But I don't feel like reporting him, and I doubt Erin will find her way here unless someone Else complains.

As far as 'playgrounds' I seem to be able to visit Both sites, If I bug you, don't read my posts.

mazu
Jan. 10, 2007, 07:54 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, cannot help but chime in and suggest that it is now indeed time for many members of this fine bulletin board to get a life. :yes:

Aunt Esther is the one posting unfunny messages in the third person. Does Aunt Esther have room to talk?

siegi b.
Jan. 10, 2007, 08:49 PM
Monica - if you don't like my phrases...... :-)

Shouldn't the number of your "contributions" (ahem) to the above list of RK threads be enough to convince folks that your "output" actually fits my description of it quite well?

Carry on! :-)

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 08:50 PM
Dalfan, btw, I think your horses are beautiful. And I don't think they look in pain or anything.

Why, thank you YF. I only wish they were mine. :D


for me, some of my tiredness comes from Dalfan's other posts which show a condescending nature and a willingness to criticize and scoff at OTHER peoples methods/questions as being so clearly incorrect, when she herself has much to learn.

Yes, don't we all have a lot to learn about riding. That's what pics and vids are for. As I said before, I find it VERY useful to look at pics/vids of myself, helps to find what is not correct. And I am very adamant about rider position. When riders post regarding problems with their position, I see nothing wrong with giving advice. That's what they are asking for. The dressage seat is what it is. There is correct and incorrect. Plain and simple. If you find that condescending and scoffing, too bad.

And I feel safe in saying I would put my position in the saddle against yours any day.

And if this vid has been seen before, why even bother putting in your two cents?

Dalfan
Jan. 10, 2007, 08:51 PM
Its not about people wanting to have a genuine open-minded discussion of the pros/cons or RK.

Well, you were given the chance but opted instead for attacking and insulting. Take your own advice.

snopbobil
Jan. 10, 2007, 10:17 PM
The first video of "Anky" was competely digusting, I hope one of those horse's bucks her untalented cruel abusive a** off someday and she can never abuse another horse, the people who defend it are just as sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fatwhitepony
Jan. 10, 2007, 10:29 PM
The first video of "Anky" was competely digusting, I hope one of those horse's bucks her untalented cruel abusive a** off someday and she can never abuse another horse, the people who defend it are just as sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's already been done...a few years back. She was sidelined with a broken femur.



GOD, I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD IS STILL GOING....IN FACT I'M SURPRISED IT MADE IT PAST PG. 1!!

Sabine
Jan. 11, 2007, 01:16 AM
Siegi - could You please find a new phrase. You keep regurgitating your verbal vomit phrase any time someone says something you don't like.

I KNOW this bb has Erin, I simply said that IN MY OPINION Theo was out of line. But I don't feel like reporting him, and I doubt Erin will find her way here unless someone Else complains.

As far as 'playgrounds' I seem to be able to visit Both sites, If I bug you, don't read my posts.

WOW- that sounded like someone from high above pointing the finger at someone way down there- jeez Monica since when did you acquire wings and the angel costume???

Erin will take care of what she thinks is necessary. It was not necessary to put up this thread as a revenge to Theo and act like there was no knowledge of the Sydney video- that is like me selling you some real nice acreage in the Florida swamps.....my goodness...who's buying that story?? I sure don't- not from someone like Dalfan...no way never!!!

Funckyfilly
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:19 AM
I neither condemn nor condone this type of training, but I do understand it. Its been said a few times on this board how most connection is lost in front of the saddle and you see a lot of short necks. What Anky is doing is an exercise to help build strength in front of the saddle so her horses can lift and grow. If you have ever worked with a personal trainer and lifted weights, you can understand how unpleasant doing something this hard can be. I am sure most of us who have been in a position of being pushed a little beyond our limits to help gain strength were "swishing our tales" and whining and moaning too. Its not pretty and I am sure most horses just cannot tolerate it to this extent. But obviously some can, because she is one of the top riders in the world and her horses perform, it seems quite, happily. But then, they are in shape to.

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:23 AM
Snopmobil, don't worry, the Germans are already on Anky's tale:D
Eqipoize, as far as Theo goes, people vote with their pocketbooks, they'll get all they info they can out of him, smile and be polite and superficial like most of us here in North America, but if they don't like him they'll take their business elsewhere, that's just how I see it.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:31 AM
It was not necessary to put up this thread as a revenge to Theo and act like there was no knowledge of the Sydney video- that is like me selling you some real nice acreage in the Florida swamps.....my goodness...who's buying that story?? I sure don't- not from someone like Dalfan...no way never!!!

Gee, insult my riding, now call me a liar:lol: :lol: Well, whether you believe it or not, it's true. I have seen only three videos, the rest in pics. You mean to tell me there are LOTS more RK vids out there that I haven't seen?? Oh Boy.

I really don't understand WHY you guys have such vehement objections to the posting of RK videos.

I mean, if you see nothing wrong with the technique and you possibly try to emulate this technique at home, why the offense?

I would think some of you could say, "why yes, this is an excellent representation of the technique" and be eager for others to see the method in action.

It's almost as if you are embarassed by it and would like to "hide" the sight from people that might not have seen these vids.

Seems like every one that is posted it is claimed to be "the worst you could find". But, they all seem to have that label, don't they. Hmmm.....I wonder why.;)

Huntertwo
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De0vL53EDgU


Couldn't resist, my bad. :)

OMG...That is tooo funny..:lol: :lol:

Patch
Jan. 11, 2007, 10:10 AM
Gee, insult my riding, now call me a liar:lol: :lol: Well, whether you believe it or not, it's true.

I really don't understand WHY you guys have such vehement objections to the posting of RK videos.

I mean, if you see nothing wrong with the technique and you possibly try to emulate this technique at home, why the offense?

I would think some of you could say, "why yes, this is an excellent representation of the technique" and be eager for others to see the method in action.

It's almost as if you are embarassed by it and would like to "hide" the sight from people that might not have seen these vids.

Seems like every one that is posted it is claimed to be "the worst you could find". But, they all seem to have that label, don't they. Hmmm.....I wonder why.;)


Dalfan why do you insist on wrangling this discussion over and over again? Rolkur has been discussed ad nauseum on COTH (see post #86) and most of the posters here are regulars like yourself so how do you expect to get a 'fresh' discussion?

dutchmike
Jan. 11, 2007, 10:16 AM
Is coth becoming all about bashing others?. I am not a great fan of Anky but she is worldchampion and is always in the first 3 whenever she enters. To critisize people like anky or other top riders you first have to win something yourself at an international level. I see alot of people doing the same that Theo did on a previous thread

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 10:18 AM
Dalfan why do you insist on wrangling this discussion over and over again?

Well, I did think this train had reached the station - that is until someone put their half-a-penny in regarding my intentions. Implying I am lying required a response. And I am just curious why pro-rk riders get so, so upset when rk vids are posted. that's all.

Patch
Jan. 11, 2007, 10:32 AM
Well, I did think this train had reached the station - that is until someone put their half-a-penny in regarding my intentions. Implying I am lying required a response. And I am just curious why pro-rk riders get so, so upset when rk vids are posted. that's all.

Fair enough, carry on :D

slc2
Jan. 11, 2007, 11:50 AM
Dalfan, I'll just BET that if you can straighten up and correct your position, you could correct the restricted gaits of your horse and straighten HIM too! What you've got is called a 'false frame'. The horse's position may look pleasing to a neophyte, but they aren't thru their neck or back. This is the root fo the tension others noted in your pictures.

He would then be able to show a more correct gait and more desirable range of motion in his strides. Plus, correcting your position will help correct his incorrect carriage through his back! Several people had pointed out the tail clamped to the hind quarters. In most cases, this means the horse is uncomfortable in the back. You can learn a great deal from thinking about how the horse is carrying his tail. If you read carefully through some classical writings on dressage, you'll be amazed at how important tail carriage is in classical dressage! Some very flamboyant horses are just expressive with their tail - that isn't the case here. The tails are held stiffly. That's because the way the horse goes is a mirror of how the rider is riding. We all get to a point where we get that 'lightbulb moment' and realize that.

What i'd suggest is to try to get your shoulders, neck and arms untwisted, and following the direction of the horse correctly, as is required in a classical position. If you work on that, I can bet that deepening your seat and correcting your leg position so you aren't leaning so much onto one side, will come easy. I'd suggest you correct your stirrup length so they aren't uneven. That will help you to correct your long-on-one-side-short-on-the-other position. From there, you should be able to get a more correct, deeper seat in the saddle, the kind that's really desirable in classical dressage.

Once you get so you can supple up your back and get rid of the stiffness in your neck, shoulders and upper body, I'm sure you will be able to encourage your horses to move better. Right now, these smaller gaited horses are appropriate for you until you can develop more suppleness in your position. However, even so, you need to be working on enlarging, improving and purifying these horse's gaits. Instead of working on half pass, I'd suggest it would be a great idea to get back on the trot circle and work on your basics - longeing without stirrups would also be great for you. Sure, everyone likes to rush to the fun stuff, but let's first work on getting those basics down.

Too, an instructor who can look at your basic position, and keep giving you feedback til you get a feel for what's correct and can maintain it yourself between lessons, would really be of great help to you. Sometimes due to circumstances or limited funds a person can wind up working just a little too much on their own, and missing position mistakes that are being made. You can get quite used to being in an incorrect position and it can get to a point where sitting incorrectly feels right. That might be the root of your 'I'll put my position and seat up against yours any day" comment. You may simply not be aware of the mistakes you have in your position.

Aside from that, it's not a good idea to get adversarial in your view of your own riding. There will always be some people you ride better than, but there always will be a great many riders who ride far better than you do! It's just a fact of life. If you can concentrate on working on improving yourself, rather than comparing yourself to others, your journey will be more rational and you will make more progress.

I'd suggest as frequent lessons as you can manage. It really can help! Don't get discouraged! Developing a good, supple, straight seat takes a lot of work!

You should be pleased when you look back on your progress a year or two from now and compare pictures 'before' and 'after'.

LDM
Jan. 11, 2007, 12:36 PM
As a newbie to the board, but very much enjoying the fresh conversations... I must say i had NEVER seen that video and found it very interesting. I have a,ways been an Anky fan, as I have many, many, many of her videos and have laways had an apprecitation for the harmony that she and her horses eem to have. They have such soft eyes normally, and a certain contentness, while still having so much spirit. I have to say I do not think i would ever do such a drastic method of training, however I am not the caliber of rider that she is, and I also do not ride the caliber of horses that she does. She is a world apart from what I am. They are incredibly "hot" for the most part and are definately alpha's. I think there is something to be learned from every rider, every video, and I believe everyone has their own method of training, which I do not believe has anything to do with my method of training. Some horses require a harsher method than others, they are all so very different. I guess the day that I ride the horse shown 6 days a week, I will decide what makes the ride safe for me and safe for the horse. And essentially enjoyable for both parties involved, with a clear understanding between horse and rider. Since that will never, ever happen, I will just learn fromt the littl snapshot I saw, take what ic an from it, good or bad. P.S. I checked out the original posters pics as well, and looks like you are enjoying yourself, your horse is lovely, happy riding!!! (and thank you for a video I had not yet scene!) Being out in the country I had dial up and never was able to get videos until a recent upgrade in my internet, and am now soaking up a wealth of new information, keep it coming! AND I LOVED THE MEN DOING DRESSAGE! i was laughing so hard I almost had an accident!!!! HAHA!

YoungFilly
Jan. 11, 2007, 12:46 PM
Is coth becoming all about bashing others?.

Becoming? Just now? :lol:

Haven't been around here for long, huh? :winkgrin:

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 12:59 PM
Wow! A fresh group of Amtrakers.


Dalfan - your Arabian is lovely!

Thanks TS. Not mine though.

slc........why, thanks for taking the time! I appreciate it!:lol: :cool: :D
But, I have to ask, where do you see a clamped tail in my pics?

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 01:34 PM
Dalfan, I'll just BET that if you can straighten up and correct your position, you could correct the restricted gaits of your horse and straighten HIM too! What you've got is called a 'false frame'. The horse's position may look pleasing to a neophyte, but they aren't thru their neck or back. This is the root fo the tension others noted in your pictures.

He would then be able to show a more correct gait and more desirable range of motion in his strides. Plus, correcting your position will help correct his incorrect carriage through his back! Several people had pointed out the tail clamped to the hind quarters. In most cases, this means the horse is uncomfortable in the back. You can learn a great deal from thinking about how the horse is carrying his tail. If you read carefully through some classical writings on dressage, you'll be amazed at how important tail carriage is in classical dressage! Some very flamboyant horses are just expressive with their tail - that isn't the case here. The tails are held stiffly. That's because the way the horse goes is a mirror of how the rider is riding. We all get to a point where we get that 'lightbulb moment' and realize that.

What i'd suggest is to try to get your shoulders, neck and arms untwisted, and following the direction of the horse correctly, as is required in a classical position. If you work on that, I can bet that deepening your seat and correcting your leg position so you aren't leaning so much onto one side, will come easy. I'd suggest you correct your stirrup length so they aren't uneven. That will help you to correct your long-on-one-side-short-on-the-other position. From there, you should be able to get a more correct, deeper seat in the saddle, the kind that's really desirable in classical dressage.

Once you get so you can supple up your back and get rid of the stiffness in your neck, shoulders and upper body, I'm sure you will be able to encourage your horses to move better. Right now, these smaller gaited horses are appropriate for you until you can develop more suppleness in your position. However, even so, you need to be working on enlarging, improving and purifying these horse's gaits. Instead of working on half pass, I'd suggest it would be a great idea to get back on the trot circle and work on your basics - longeing without stirrups would also be great for you. Sure, everyone likes to rush to the fun stuff, but let's first work on getting those basics down.

Too, an instructor who can look at your basic position, and keep giving you feedback til you get a feel for what's correct and can maintain it yourself between lessons, would really be of great help to you. Sometimes due to circumstances or limited funds a person can wind up working just a little too much on their own, and missing position mistakes that are being made. You can get quite used to being in an incorrect position and it can get to a point where sitting incorrectly feels right. That might be the root of your 'I'll put my position and seat up against yours any day" comment. You may simply not be aware of the mistakes you have in your position.

Aside from that, it's not a good idea to get adversarial in your view of your own riding. There will always be some people you ride better than, but there always will be a great many riders who ride far better than you do! It's just a fact of life. If you can concentrate on working on improving yourself, rather than comparing yourself to others, your journey will be more rational and you will make more progress.

I'd suggest as frequent lessons as you can manage. It really can help! Don't get discouraged! Developing a good, supple, straight seat takes a lot of work!

You should be pleased when you look back on your progress a year or two from now and compare pictures 'before' and 'after'.

SLC: Don't go there; you have never seen this horse go. He's my schoolmaster. False frame he is not!
Dalfan rode with me for a couple of years, and made leaps and bounds in her progress, and on a bi-weekly lesson programme!
This is totally uncalled for.
I expect an apology.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 01:53 PM
Sorry Elaine. I did not ask for critiques of myself. Theo started this as a personal attack in response to the RK ugliness I had posted. Others took that as a license to offer theirs as well, even though they knew it was probably out of line.

I opted to ignore it basically. Since they don't post pics of themselves on their horses, we have no idea if they can put into action their words. I kinda of doubt it, though.

Will close that album.

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:21 PM
Dalfan: There are too many "computer chair professionals" and not enough do-ers in the dressage world.
The personal attacks are verging on "internet kung-fu".
I don't blame LM for standing up for herself after reading the crap on this board!
That's why I don't post a lot. I'm spending too much time with my horses and students, and not sitting on my duff ripping apart people.
At least I have the guts to say who I am.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:26 PM
Dalfan: There are too many "computer chair professionals" and not enough do-ers in the dressage world

Too true, Elatu. Unfortunately, the person who started this petty thread is one of the former.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:30 PM
Unfortunately, the person who started this petty thread is one of the former

Oh no, not petty. If even ONE person seeing RK for the first time is convinced of the ugliness that it is, that's a GOOD thing.

One thing this does bring out is the character of some posters. I imagine he is the type to snicker and mutter about his very own clients. Tries to come across as somewhat nice, but I think not.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:34 PM
Sorry Elaine. I did not ask for critiques of myself.


Oh, right, you just like to critique others.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:42 PM
I guess this will be a good reminder for those asking for critiques. Those giving critiques will be open for attacks on their own pics, is that how it will work? Unfortunately, most have their pics safely hidden away, knowing they'd be called out for spouting advice they can't manage to attain themselves. Remember, this thread was about a training method, not rider position.

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:45 PM
Come on people; if you guys keep this up, this message board will end up getting nuked.
Like as if it has'nt had enough bad press of late. This site is a privelidge, not a right. I would'nt be surprised if COTH just upped and deleted this whole message forum.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:45 PM
Dalfan wrote:

[quote][Where is the character assasination? A critisism of a riding video in the public domain is hardly that.

Surely those that consider themselves knowledgable horsemen (regarding movement,gaits,conformation,etc) can see the tension, restriction in the shoulders preventing the hind from coming and just overall bad riding when "critiqueing" riding vids, no?

I mean, really now, can you deny it?/QUOTE]

I don't critique people's riding. Ever. I'm just reading what you wrote. See above.

Elatu, are you talking to Dalfan?

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:52 PM
Egontoast: Why? PM me.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:58 PM
Well, I do see a distinction. This is a public figure. Her training/riding IS up for public scrutiny, IMHO.

So next time, theo posts a vid, or someone asks for a critique, if I don't like a fellow posters opinion, I can go into their pics and start ragging on their riding, is that it? Just so I know the rules next time.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:34 PM
SLC2. I really enjoyed your post though you made the mistake of critiquing someone who only likes to critique.
Elatu Why would you need an apology from someone who says your horses tail is clamped down?
Elatu. Unfortunatly, for herself, Dalfan has made it pretty obvious that she has an inflated idea about her riding ability which has opened her up to some ridicule from other posters.Is it you telling her she is fabulous? I personally pay my instructers to be honest with me.
Dalfan you wont answer any questions as to whether you have contacted Anky yourself even though you have been asked many times.You also state that you have ONLY seen 3x videos and some pictures.I would not consider myself an expert on anything if Id only seen 6mins of motion broken into 3x youtubes.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:47 PM
SLC2. I really enjoyed your post though you made the mistake of critiquing someone who only likes to critique

Not true. Critique, looking at pics and vids is one way in how we learn what needs to be fixed.


Elatu Why would you need an apology from someone who says your horses tail is clamped down?

There is no tail-clamping. In all the pics the tail is very expressive.


Unfortunatly, for herself, Dalfan has made it pretty obvious that she has an inflated idea about her riding ability which has opened her up to some ridicule from other posters.Is it you telling her she is fabulous? I personally pay my instructers to be honest with me.

Again, not true. Oh I know, just trying to fan the flames. And ridicule from other poster who don't have the B*lls to put up their own pics. And I rather like my position in the saddle. Put some pics of yourself up and let's compare. I have a inkling what I would see. Maybe some RK/HF thrown in their as well,hmmmm?


You also state that you have ONLY seen 3x videos and some pictures.I would not consider myself an expert on anything if Id only seen 6mins of motion broken into 3x youtubes.

It really doesn't take much more than those few times to see the pure ugliness of that "training", now does it? Can you show a vid of correct RK?

SillyHorse
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:58 PM
Why do you all even bother? :confused: Some people will always feel they must get in the last word - it is their mision in life, I think. Nothing they do or think is ever wrong or open to criticism, and woe be to anyone who thinks otherwise. It's very tiresome.

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:01 PM
SLC2. I really enjoyed your post though you made the mistake of critiquing someone who only likes to critique.
Elatu Why would you need an apology from someone who says your horses tail is clamped down?
Elatu. Unfortunatly, for herself, Dalfan has made it pretty obvious that she has an inflated idea about her riding ability which has opened her up to some ridicule from other posters.Is it you telling her she is fabulous? I personally pay my instructers to be honest with me.
Dalfan you wont answer any questions as to whether you have contacted Anky yourself even though you have been asked many times.You also state that you have ONLY seen 3x videos and some pictures.I would not consider myself an expert on anything if Id only seen 6mins of motion broken into 3x youtubes.

What a crock of sh*t this post is. I am reading this in disgust. You definitely have a problem, and it better not be with me.
I opened my mouth to defend my horse, not the actions of a past student, and I don't think that you have anything to do with this conversation.
This board is not only a train wreck, it's self-destructing quickly.
No wonder the world is in chaos with a bunch of cat fighting bitches that are on this board.
I hope the mods wipe this board out completely.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:08 PM
I cant post pics as COTH wont let me.I can tell you that you and I would be at about the same level though.Novice with lots to learn.
I can tell you what you will see though if you saw a video of me. I tend to tip foward when I get tired causing my horse to go on the forehand.I tend to get behind the motion in sitting trot due to not absorbing the motion because of a stiff back.I need to open up my shoulder more.I could go on and on.I ride at elementary level which Im not sure what that equates to in the USA.When I see pictures and video of myself I am very critical which is what drives me to improve myself.I have a complete reality on my riding skills.
We dont have RK here in NZ which is why I felt the need to see it for myself overseas and no I dont train with it as I think it is a tool only for profesionals.

dizzywriter
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:10 PM
But anything that gets this many posts gets my attention.

All I will add is: evolution anyone?

Choo choo

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:15 PM
I opened my mouth to defend my horse, not the actions of a past student, and I don't think that you have anything to do with this conversation.

Just wanted to say again how lovely your Arabian is! :yes: I do love Palaminos, Buckskins and Duns. Your horse looks very athletic and expressive. I just love that about the Arabian! :D Do you mind saying his breeding? Is he some portion Polish and/or Russian? He looks very sporthorse in type versus the more refined Halter type.

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:29 PM
Thanks Two Simple: Gen Custer aka Maverick is 1/2 QuarterHorse and 1/2 Arabian; I don't know too much about bloodline with Arabians. I am more concerned about the brains and movement. He is 13 this year, by Shah Al Badi out of Postively a Chick (QH)- I had to find the papers. He is Canadian Bred.
He's definitely a character! Right now I'm working Piaffe/Passage with him. I hope to have him at Grand Prix in a couple of years.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:52 PM
I tend to tip foward when I get tired causing my horse to go on the forehand.I tend to get behind the motion in sitting trot due to not absorbing the motion because of a stiff back.I need to open up my shoulder more.I could go on and on.I ride at elementary level which Im not sure what that equates to in the USA.

Well then, you and I ARE NOT at the same level. I tend not to tip forward. I do not get behind the motion at the sit trot and I know how to absorb the motion (thanks to Elatu and her schoolmasters and the 2-3 level schoolmaster I leased).

In fact, let me point you to ONE of my pics (chestnut (upclose)). That elbow to bit connection is very very good. Straight as an arrow, soft, even rein contact. Horse is listening to me. My alignment is OK (could open up that hip/thigh angle a little, drop my heel, a sit back a tad) but overall, that is an EXCELLENT elbow-to-bit connection. Horse could be a little more UP in the bridle, but whose perfect.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:54 PM
I cant post pics as COTH wont let me.I can tell you that you and I would be at about the same level though.Novice with lots to learn.

BS. Well then, how about an independent webshot sight, like some on here have. And until I see pics of your position in the saddle, I would find it hard to believe.

Aunt Esther
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:59 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, continues to be fascinated by the overwhelming need for some members of this fine bulletin board to get a life.

Aunt Esther suggests that it might be best for some to realize that there will always be pro and anti rollkur groups, never the twain shall meet, and instead of bitching about it over and over, said groups merely agree to disagree and move on with life.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:00 PM
Dalfan.Sorry I didnt make myself clear.Im not saying we have the same faults just that we have faults.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:01 PM
Well then, you and I ARE NOT at the same level. I tend not to tip forward. I do not get behind the motion at the sit trot and I know how to absorb the motion (thanks to Elatu and her schoolmasters and the 2-3 level schoolmaster I leased).

In fact, let me point you to ONE of my pics (chestnut (upclose)). That elbow to bit connection is very very good. Straight as an arrow, soft, even rein contact. Horse is listening to me. My alignment is OK (could open up that hip/thigh angle a little, drop my heel, a sit back a tad) but overall, that is an EXCELLENT elbow-to-bit connection. Horse could be a little more UP in the bridle, but whose perfect.

pfffft


The more you learn, the more humble you become.

The more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know.

If you think you are there, you aren't even close.

Ad then there is the old " Pride goeth before the fall."

You get the drift.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:06 PM
Even GP riders have faults, haven't you noticed? To compare your position with mine, I'd have to see proof we are at the same level. Your list of "faults", I have corrected for the most part in myself.

So Aunt Esther; Next time a RK vid comes up, maybe the pro-rk crowd should not get involved since they get so insanely offended. Just as this thread has attracted "newbies" to RK, I hope future ones do as well.

Can't see enough of it,IMHO.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:07 PM
If you think you are there, you aren't even close.

Where exactly do you think I think I am? GP? Far from it, in my humble estimation. I just thought I would point out one of my better moments with my left hand. Don't you think it is very good? I mean, since we got on the tear of critiqueing me, I might as well join in and point out some good equitation, dont you think?

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:17 PM
I think another pic for scrutiny would be the "canterl" pic. See, at this stage of the canter, novice riders have a tendency to get pulled forward out of the saddle by the horse as the lead touches the ground. Granted, my reins are a tad long, but because of my "core" and balance I am able to keep my position, keep my butt in the saddle, and keep my legs long. My hands are a little low, hence the tendency of the horse to be too low in his "frame" tending to go BTV.

Now riding this horse (16.2 TBx) is much different than riding the Arab. Much more difficult to keep together.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:18 PM
....nevermind

"there' is not GP. I feel sorry for you.

mp
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:21 PM
Pride goeth before the fall."

In the spirit of all the nitpicking and BS on this thread ...

The correct quote from Proverbs is:

Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Still seems to apply very well though ...

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:22 PM
Wow. You are really.....nevermind

What?? You mean I'm not supposed to respond to the out-of-line, unasked-for critiques by pointing out some "good" moments in my riding? Why should you all closet riders get all the fun,hmmm?

Still haven't answered my question. Stroke my ego, tell me that REALLY is a VERY good elbow-to-bit connection. I need it:lol:

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:23 PM
"there' is not GP. I feel sorry for you.

Oh. So sorry. Should have included walk/trot all the way up to GP. Feel better now?

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:24 PM
In the spirit of all the nitpicking and BS on this thread ...

The correct quote from Proverbs is:

Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.



hehe, thanks, mp, I'm not up on the Bible. I was quoting my grandmother!

slc2
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:26 PM
dalfan, if you have corrected the faults. how can i see them in the photos?

elatu, you totally missed the point.

rileyt
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:26 PM
This just gets more and more bizarre!

My goodness, you have a picture where your left hand is nearly perfect??? Why, you must be a GREEEAAAT rider then.

I can get 9 out of 10 of my toes pointed forward with great regularity, and at the same time both feet in the stirrups... I think I will try out for the Olympic team next year.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:29 PM
Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Egawds!! I should be burning in H*ll on earth, then.:lol: :D

rileyt
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:30 PM
I have decided I must really be a sicko, to keep coming back to this thread to see what new and bizarre hits Dalfan is both taking, and inflicting on herself.

Is anyone else reminded on the Knight in Monty Python? "Tis a mere SCRATCH I say! Come back here! I'll bite your arms off!"

Now where is Velvet when I need her. Its not like her to avoid a good cat fight... and I do know how she loves Monty Python.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:31 PM
good idea

Actually, I think we should call in the Confuse a Cat van

http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/confuse.htm

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:36 PM
Your missing the point. I'm not saying my position is perfect (far from it), but I think it is pretty good for the most part, especially when talking of "degrees". Yes, my shoulders could be back/open. I see more good than not.

But my "pointing" out some goods points is in response to those (who, btw, don't have the courage to put up pics of themselves) who want to critique me (unasked). I have my doubts whether they could achieve what they spout.

I didn't start the ragging/critique of my riding, but I might as well join in and point out some of the better moments.

The elbow-to-bit connection? Good, Huh??

Come on Egg, put some photos up. We'd all get a good laugh, I think.


This just gets more and more bizarre!

My goodness, you have a picture where your left hand is nearly perfect??? Why, you must be a GREEEAAAT rider then.

I can get 9 out of 10 of my toes pointed forward with great regularity, and at the same time both feet in the stirrups... I think I will try out for the Olympic team next year.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:39 PM
Oh yes, how fabulous is the one hand. Can't be beat!

Auventera Two
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:42 PM
Thanks Two Simple: Gen Custer aka Maverick is 1/2 QuarterHorse and 1/2 Arabian; I don't know too much about bloodline with Arabians. I am more concerned about the brains and movement. He is 13 this year, by Shah Al Badi out of Postively a Chick (QH)- I had to find the papers. He is Canadian Bred.
He's definitely a character! Right now I'm working Piaffe/Passage with him. I hope to have him at Grand Prix in a couple of years.

Well, you know, I knew he had to be 1/2 Arab, but wasn't completely sure what the other half might be.

Positively A Chick is from a beautiful long line of Top Deck, King, Count Fleet, Triple Chick, Three Bars, Hank and all that. Wow, I love those old lines! My QH mare has much of that same pedigree! :winkgrin: Awesome!

I LOVE to hear reports of Arabians doing well in the sporthorse disciplines. That's so encouraging! Mine is just 4 so is just learning the ropes of carrying the human around.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:44 PM
Oh yes, how fabulous is the one hand. Can't be beat!

Oh but the right is pretty good in that pic too, wouldn't you say? Nice even reins, soft contact, thumbs up, excellent straight line, etc, etc.:lol: :lol:

mp
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:47 PM
I can get 9 out of 10 of my toes pointed forward with great regularity, and at the same time both feet in the stirrups... I think I will try out for the Olympic team next year.



Oh yes, how fabulous is the one hand. Can't be beat!


I haven't fallen off in 2 years. How many points for that?

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:52 PM
Actually, I do smell something, but I didn't want to be rude ...

What, can't take the S**t back at you? Just having a little fun, you know, fun? What do you think of the elbow-to-bit connection? Good, Yes??:lol: :lol:

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:53 PM
I haven't fallen off in 2 years. How many points for that

I think you are Ok so long as your pride doth not goeth.

Or you could fall off your chair laughing, reading Rileyt's posts.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:53 PM
Ive actually trained both my WBs from scratch to be competitive at both the levels their currently at .Do I get any points for that?

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 05:55 PM
Ive actually trained both my WBs from scratch to be competitive at both the levels their currently at .Do I get any points for that?

Only if you post pics so we confirm what you say is actually reality. As we all know, most tend to think they ride better than they actual do.:winkgrin:

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:07 PM
elatu, you totally missed the point.
What point did I miss? If you were referring to the Palomino horse, then it was mine.
I train the way I train, and I am not having some anonymous person lay comments onto my training or my horses from seeing several pics from a student riding him.
As far as I am concerned, you are treading on very thin ice if you are referring to my horses. You don't know Jack about me. Read my blog for my results and pics; not only mine, but my students.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/Elatu/Untitled-Stitched-07.jpg

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:10 PM
Is that you riding Elatu?

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:13 PM
What photos are you referring to?

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:16 PM
This thread is not really about you or your horses Elatu. We have a narcissist here who posts all over the board criticising everyone in her path and bragging about her own alleged virtues. Search her posts if you don't believe it. She has dragged you in here.

This sort of thing tends to put people off.

We do have an ignore function and it needs to be updated regularly.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:17 PM
The montage of photos sort of like an advert.
Just had another look and I see the two pics of the Palomino so it must be.
Nice colour.

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:36 PM
No what we have here is a bunch of people offended by a posting of a classic example of RK, who then instead of discussing civiliy decide to personally attack me, my riding, and the horse I am riding. I thought that was a no,no.

When people ask for critiques, they hope to get answers that help them. If you find my posts offensive, ignore them.

And you are a little late to this thread, but you have no compunction fanning the flames. A modus operandi of yours, I notice.

And I started "bragging" after much tearing apart of my position and riding. You wouldn't deny me that would you. To point out some good moments, especially when I didn't ask to be critiqued? At no time did I mention or point anyone to my photos. Theo went trolling for that. Af

What dragged her in are the insanely defensive RK advocates who can't stand to see the technique in action.

Read your own posts, my dear. You just show up to jab and poke. Still no critique of my left hand?? It must be even better than I thought. I wouldn't expect any generosity.

Come on, egg. I really, really want to see you on a horse. I'll be kind, I promise.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:46 PM
I can get 9 out of 10 of my toes pointed forward with great regularity, and at the same time both feet in the stirrups... I think I will try out for the Olympic team next year.

:lol:

You might have to duke it out with LM and C.Haddad.;)

Hony
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:50 PM
I have been watching this thread for the past couple of days and it seems to me that you Dalfan need to give it a rest.
Dalfan, is there a time of the day when you are not sitting at your computer? I noticed that your name appears every second post. Sometimes it's time to just let it go.
By posting that video you must have known there would be a reaction - there is everytime anything about RK is posted. Is that what you were aiming for, and is that why all the subsequent posts? Nobody here is going to stop until you do so step away from the keyboard and go ride your horse.

indyblue
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:51 PM
I dont think she has one.

egontoast
Jan. 11, 2007, 06:53 PM
:lol:

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 07:02 PM
You're right Hony. I have a lot of time on my hands. I guess that can be a good/bad thing. I do have a bad habit of defending myself when I feel the need.

Unfortunately, I don't believe in ignore lists. So my options are limited.

Hony
Jan. 11, 2007, 07:06 PM
I thought I was giving you some good advice but it appears as though the others are correct, you must always have the last word. Again, this train wreck isn't going to stop until you stop it.

P.R.E.
Jan. 11, 2007, 07:18 PM
You're right Hony. I have a lot of time on my hands. I guess that can be a good/bad thing. I do have a bad habit of defending myself when I feel the need.

Unfortunately, I don't believe in ignore lists. So my options are limited.

When this thread started, I tried to defend your right to have an opinion and I still defend people's right to have their opinion. Never the less the way you have conducted yourself through this thread, is no different that the way horsedances do, in the other side of the spectrum. Extremes are not good. Both of you think that you are sperb in your own way, great for you, but he way you express that to other people, doesn't show self -confidence, it shows arrogance and no ability to listen and learn.

Many times the person that has the last word, not necessarily wins.

People are more open to take someone else opinion, when is addressed kindly and with respect and when people get the feeling that only an opinion was given and not a fact that can't be discussed.

Is time to show some maturity. If what other people are saying is not true, you have nothing to worry about, go to oyur arena and ride your horse the way you like it. If what other people says, hits close to home, well the I assume that this threas is going to get to page 20 within hours.

sm
Jan. 11, 2007, 07:34 PM
To Hony too: It's time to show some maturity. You didn't give good advice in 173 and 177, it was an attack fest and somehow you feel superior while ganging up to argue even though no one attacked you.

It's time to show some maturity: You can't change the other person. The only thing you can change is YOUR response. Stop posting to stop the trainwreck -- that's good advice for you too.

mazu
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:13 PM
What point did I miss? If you were referring to the Palomino horse, then it was mine.
I train the way I train, and I am not having some anonymous person lay comments onto my training or my horses from seeing several pics from a student riding him.
As far as I am concerned, you are treading on very thin ice if you are referring to my horses. You don't know Jack about me. Read my blog for my results and pics; not only mine, but my students.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/Elatu/Untitled-Stitched-07.jpg

With respect, elatu, no one knew it was your horse or your training till you jumped in. I didn't see anyone criticizing the horse's training, anyway--just the way he looked at just a few moments in time. I have to say that I would be hesitant to call up somebody for lessons, when they go off and call internet people foul names with little provocation. Again, I mean no disrespect--but if this board upsets you so, you shouldn't read it. Or do what the rest of us, pick an unidentifiable alter and flame away, if you must. :cool:

I do google names before I will take a lesson, personally.

DanniS
Jan. 11, 2007, 09:57 PM
I can't believe this loosely veiled anky attack is still getting air time:lol:

Dalfan, I have noticed that when people ask you direct questione ie HAVE YOU CONTACTED ANKY DIRECTLY AND VOICED YOUR CONCERNS OF HER RIDING/TRAINING ABILITY

You seem to delight in baiting people with your critiques.
You also take half quotes from what people are saying to avoid answering the questions posed to you. Does it occur to you that the original video may have been taken without her knowledge/permission?

Get a life and direct your energies into something that matters, perhaps you could volunteer at a horse rescue, after all you said you had alot of free time on your hands

Elatu
Jan. 11, 2007, 10:09 PM
With respect, elatu, no one knew it was your horse or your training till you jumped in. I didn't see anyone criticizing the horse's training, anyway--just the way he looked at just a few moments in time. I have to say that I would be hesitant to call up somebody for lessons, when they go off and call internet people foul names with little provocation. Again, I mean no disrespect--but if this board upsets you so, you shouldn't read it. Or do what the rest of us, pick an unidentifiable alter and flame away, if you must. :cool:

I do google names before I will take a lesson, personally.

Perhaps I should'nt have jumped in, but enough people know me from other boards, and I've been around for many years.
I am very hesitant about posting anything on these sights; as you can see from when I joined the COTH board to now, in 5 years only a few posts per year.
I will not give advice to anyones' training problems, or critiques. It's impossible to view problems or situations with a photo, or a verbal description of a problem. I don't think the internet is a place to start ripping apart individuals. To discuss training methods and news yes, but the personal attacks do piss me off.
I refuse to hide myself under a pseudonym. I don't need to create an anonimity to be on this board.
Google away...........I'm up there.

Dune
Jan. 11, 2007, 11:10 PM
And I started "bragging" after much tearing apart of my position and riding. You wouldn't deny me that would you. To point out some good moments, especially when I didn't ask to be critiqued? At no time did I mention or point anyone to my photos. Theo went trolling for that. Af

.

Anky "didn't ask to be critiqued" by anyone on this bulletin board either. If "Theo went trolling" for your photos, I guess that means you went trolling for Anky's video. Hmmmm...:confused:

Dalfan
Jan. 11, 2007, 11:15 PM
Actually, no. Found it on another BB. And shes a public figure. I'm not. There is a difference, you know. Just as some will gush and applaud, others will wince and cringe. The training method was the issue. Rollkur. Why don't you applaud that?

See, Hony. I tried to take your advice. No such luck. I'm usually not in the habit of ignoring people when they ask me a question, whether on the internet or in person. Sorry

Edited to add; Well, questions I want to answer, just like all the other posters here. Just look how many questions of mine went unanswered in this thread. Maybe you can answer the question about my left hand connection?

DanniS
Jan. 11, 2007, 11:17 PM
DALFAN, PLEASE REFER TO MY LAST POST AND ANSWER THE QUESTION

Dune
Jan. 11, 2007, 11:53 PM
Maybe you can answer the question about my left hand connection?

I do have a suggestion as to exactly what you can do with that "left hand connection" but I may get banned for a while if I share it with you. :rolleyes:

Horsedances
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:13 AM
When I state here that I am worried because the horse is wearing his tails between his hindlegs you tell me that I am bashing:no: . NO I am worried.

IMO you don't have to google the internet to find the possible reason for an animal wearing his/her tail this way.

Again this has nothing to do with being a fan of Anky, because I am a fan of every good rider, it's them who made this sport so beautifull, they attrack media-attention and sponsors and.... new dressage riders.

And what's a good rider ?, as YoungFilly stated everybody has is issues :
Even Anky sometimes have to sweat :yes:
See the following videoclip:

www.danceofcolors.com/ANKYJUNIOR.wmv (http://www.danceofcolors.com/ANKYJUNIOR.wmv)

Theo

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:18 AM
When I state here that I am worried because the horse is wearing his tails between his hindlegs you tell me that I am bashing . NO I am worried.

IMO you don't have to google the internet to find the possible reason for an animal wearing his/her tail this way.

Again this has nothing to do with being a fan of Anky, because I am a fan of every good rider, it's them who made this sport so beautifull, they attrack media-attention and sponsors and.... new dressage riders.

What in the world are you talking about? There was no tail-clamping in ANY of the pics of the palomino.

Google the internet?? Who said that?? I think you are extremely confused here. And you WERE out of line dragging my pics in this. It's about RK, whether you can stand to watch it or not.

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:20 AM
I do have a suggestion as to exactly what you can do with that "left hand connection" but I may get banned for a while if I share it with you

:lol: :lol:
I like that. You could always PM with your suggestion.:winkgrin:

indyblue
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:22 AM
Dalfan. Did you send Anky an email today with your concerns?When I have a problem I go straight to the source.Part of being an adult.

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:30 AM
And what's a good rider ?, as YoungFilly stated everybody has is issues :
Even Anky sometimes have to sweat

This thread was not about that. It was about RK until YOU made it about my pics. That's all. Not about being a "good rider".

Oh. Thanks for the vid of jr anky. cute.

DanniS
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:39 AM
:lol:
I can't believe this loosely veiled anky attack is still getting air time:lol:

Dalfan, I have noticed that when people ask you direct questione ie HAVE YOU CONTACTED ANKY DIRECTLY AND VOICED YOUR CONCERNS OF HER RIDING/TRAINING ABILITY

You seem to delight in baiting people with your critiques.
You also take half quotes from what people are saying to avoid answering the questions posed to you. Does it occur to you that the original video may have been taken without her knowledge/permission?

Get a life and direct your energies into something that matters, perhaps you could volunteer at a horse rescue, after all you said you had alot of free time on your hands


It speaks volumes that you are still avoiding answering this post, this would be a classic example of aversion tactics:yes:

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:41 AM
Make you a deal Danni - Give me your opinion on my left-hand elbow to bit connection and I'll answer your question. Deal?

DanniS
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:50 AM
I have no interest in passing judgement on your ability or lack there of to ride.
I would simply like my post to be answered, you seem terrified by what I posed to you, if you weren't you would just answer it.

Danni

indyblue
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:15 AM
I think your left hand connection is awesome.
Dalfan if your afraid that Anky wont take you seriously....dont be.Just send over some photos of you riding (the ones on the dark horse are perfect) and she will take one look and know your someone to be reckoned with.She will see the brilliance of your left hand connection and the length of rein your riding with and Im sure she will want to aspire to have Sal with the same incredible connection.
No seriously now.Why wont you email her?Shes a nice person and if your not rude to her maybe she will reply.At least then you could really feel like youve done something.Walk the talk and all.........

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:23 AM
I think your left hand connection is awesome.

I knew it!!:lol: There just had to be somebody out there (besides me) who would recognize perfection.:p Thanks so much Indy, I can sleep well tonight.

My stops just ahead.

indyblue
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:26 AM
Yeah, the Sanitarium.
You'll get your personal escort from the men in white coats.

physical.energy
Jan. 12, 2007, 02:32 AM
Ninety eight bottles of beer on the wall.......
Ninety eight bottles of Beer,
Ya take on down pass it around and you've got ninety seven bottles of beer.

Ninety seven bottles of beer on the wall.......
Ninety seven bottles of beer,
Ya take one down pass it around and you've got ninety six bottles of beer on the wall.

Ninety six bottles of beer on the wall.....
Ninety six bottles of beer,
Ya take one down and pass it around and you've got ninety five bottles of beer on the wall.

Everybody now!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

Ninety five bottles of beer on the wall,
Ninety five bottles of beer,
Ya take one down, crawl on your horse, and now you've got ninety four bottles of beer on the wall.

Had to keep it horse related....

raff
Jan. 12, 2007, 06:15 AM
Right then,all done?
In that case,may I just say,I like the Anky video :)
I like the horse,its type,its energy,its submissiveness and its willingness to try.It isn't perfect all the time,but then,perfect is the enemy of good.This is a good horse.I like the rider,I like her ability to train a horse,and her way of making not so great better,then good,then great.
I like that she can ride hot horses,and train them to do tests that make a tingle go down your spine.I like it that she encourages the horse to express itself,I like it that she knows what to do to keep the horses focussed even so.
Riding well is not about the left hand.

snoopy
Jan. 12, 2007, 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=Dalfan;2135217] And shes a public figure. I'm not. There is a difference, you know.

Unfortunately you have made yourself a "public figure" simply because you have posted on a "public forum" and have put your pictures on a "public forum"...open for the public to comment on.;)

Horsedances
Jan. 12, 2007, 11:22 AM
Dalfan,

In Holland we have a special program (sponsored by the biggest Dutch Bank) for equestrian talents. Part of this program is media training and part of this media training program is how to handle critique. Anky is one of the mentors of this program. Do you want me to ask them if there is a spot available for you :D

Theo

siegi b.
Jan. 12, 2007, 11:47 AM
Hi Theo,

I believe that Dalfan would want to TEACH that course, as well as "10,000 Ways to Show the World I'm Always Right", and "BBs - My Only Window to the World".

Siegi

sm
Jan. 12, 2007, 12:47 PM
"Dalfan, In Holland we have a special program (sponsored by the biggest Dutch Bank) for equestrian talents. Part of this program is media training and part of this media training program is how to handle critique. Anky is one of the mentors of this program. Do you want me to ask them if there is a spot available for you"

Why would Dalfan want to do that, both Anky and her hubby/trainer lost their cool at the last GDF -- couldn't handle a simple professional reporter's question even though they both knew they were there for an open discussion and open dialogue with magazines.


Keep your cool, Dalfan. I hope you're out riding. But don't pay good money to attend that program, it needs work, LOL

Hony, I'm taking the advice you gave Dalfan earlier and I'll stop posting on this thread. See ya!

sabryant
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:31 PM
:lol: Hardly, my dear.



Where is the character assasination? A critisism of a riding video in the public domain is hardly that.

Surely those that consider themselves knowledgable horsemen (regarding movement,gaits,conformation,etc) can see the tension, restriction in the shoulders preventing the hind from coming and just overall bad riding when "critiqueing" riding vids, no?

I mean, really now, can you deny it?


Hummmm, I see just exactly the opposite. I see a powerful hindend lifting a powerful front end, through the back and coming way up off the ground. I see consentrated relaxation and movement behind the saddle as well as in front of the saddle. What I don't see, is some backless, upside-down WONDER, stuck in the movement, pitty- patting the ground with his front and hing legs!

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:38 PM
Part of this program is media training and part of this media training program is how to handle critique

Oh, I love to be critiqued. Of course more so by people who I know and respect. See, my problem is that if what you see in the RK vids is ok, lovely correct training, I'm sorry but that leads me to question your "knowledge" and credibility. Therefore, your critique is suspect in my mind.

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:41 PM
Keep your cool, Dalfan. I hope you're out riding. But don't pay good money to attend that program, it needs work, LOL

Hony, I'm taking the advice you gave Dalfan earlier and I'll stop posting on this thread. See ya!

Oh sm, no problem keeping my cool here:lol: I thought my reputation from the UDBB proceeded me. Guess not.:D I mean, being the narcissist that I am, what could be more enjoyable than talking about myself. I LOVE it. And the attention.

Don't leave, I like company.

Brady'smom
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:47 PM
If I may enter an observation totally unrelated to COTHer's opinions of one another, and entirely focused on the video that began the thread?

It's my first view of it, and since I'm at home, a real pain in the ass to load with dial-up.

Strictly regarding this particular video - breaking the horse at the 3rd vertebrae instead of allowing his vitality to come up to the poll and out through his mouth back to the rider is totally stifling the forward movement she is asking him for.

It is confusing for an animal to be asked to raise his back, withers, and lighten his forehand when this driving energy from his hindquarters is not allowed to flow through his entire spine and up through his poll and back into the rider's hand -- it's being stopped in the neck.

He has the energy and is trying to lift himself as she is requesting, but just as he begins to reach beneath himself with his hindquarters, he is having this energy pulled down and into his chest. You can see he really does want to forward, but she's having issues with the 'up' and instead is restraining him overmuch. He isn't ready for as much up as she is asking for.

I would like to see a later film of this pairing of Idool (i believe this is his name) and Anky if there is one out there, where the horse is actually bringing that energy all the way up, around and through.

Training a horse in RK to me is counterproductive because of examples such as this - most people have heard that 'practice makes perfect'. However to be accurate, it is actually 'perfect practice makes perfect'. This video does not show this horse practicing perfectly.

In fact the way this horse goes in THIS video indicates to me (MY opinion, others stand where you will) that he should not yet be asked to do what he is being asked to do. He needs more strength and balance in the back end - which cannot come so long as he is being allowed to 'get away with' what he is doing (not reaching forward and under with hind end, lack of rhythm).

A good thing - he clearly does not suffer from lack of impulsion, the dynamite is there just waiting to be actively and effectively channelled (his readiness to explode into canter from a standstill with the mere motion of leg is quite clear).

Dalfan
Jan. 12, 2007, 01:48 PM
Do you want me to ask them if there is a spot available for you

Why Theo! Thank you for thinking I have the talent to get into a program like this. Yes!! Check on that for me, please.

SillyHorse
Jan. 12, 2007, 04:45 PM
Last word.

Christa P
Jan. 12, 2007, 06:35 PM
Pretty sure thats Idool?I wonder what sort of abuse he had to suffer in the other 23.5hrs of his day.Im sure he had a 5 star lifestyle.
Having seen Anky warming up,another time training a horse in Rolkur in the flesh, I got to see the many breaks she gave it and pats.
Dalfan.This video has been around for years and to be honest I get more offended seeing obese people riding horses.


Actually at the beginning it says it is Bonfire and a few seconds somebody says :Anky VanG?? Behind the scenes in Sydney" so I assume she is warming up at the Olympics. As for the position of the horse - the less said the better.

Christa P

indyblue
Jan. 12, 2007, 06:44 PM
Its Idool.

Tonja
Jan. 12, 2007, 07:09 PM
Brady'smom wrote:

Strictly regarding this particular video - breaking the horse at the 3rd vertebrae instead of allowing his vitality to come up to the poll and out through his mouth back to the rider is totally stifling the forward movement she is asking him for.

It is confusing for an animal to be asked to raise his back, withers, and lighten his forehand when this driving energy from his hindquarters is not allowed to flow through his entire spine and up through his poll and back into the rider's hand -- it's being stopped in the neck.

He has the energy and is trying to lift himself as she is requesting, but just as he begins to reach beneath himself with his hindquarters, he is having this energy pulled down and into his chest. You can see he really does want to forward, but she's having issues with the 'up' and instead is restraining him overmuch. He isn't ready for as much up as she is asking for.

I would like to see a later film of this pairing of Idool (i believe this is his name) and Anky if there is one out there, where the horse is actually bringing that energy all the way up, around and through.

Training a horse in RK to me is counterproductive because of examples such as this - most people have heard that 'practice makes perfect'. However to be accurate, it is actually 'perfect practice makes perfect'. This video does not show this horse practicing perfectly.

In fact the way this horse goes in THIS video indicates to me (MY opinion, others stand where you will) that he should not yet be asked to do what he is being asked to do. He needs more strength and balance in the back end - which cannot come so long as he is being allowed to 'get away with' what he is doing (not reaching forward and under with hind end, lack of rhythm).

A good thing - he clearly does not suffer from lack of impulsion, the dynamite is there just waiting to be actively and effectively channelled (his readiness to explode into canter from a standstill with the mere motion of leg is quite clear).
Excellent observations and nicely explained! :yes: (IMHO)

kkj
Jan. 13, 2007, 11:59 AM
Someone who knows, what happened with Idool? He never really made it in the big time did he? Is he retired?

I don't like Rolkur and I surely wouldn't try it on my horse, but I still have respect for Anky's riding. I think her riding works very well with some horses like Salinero. He sometimes appears tense but I doubt he would go better for anyone else. I also think she gets horses that are really not that great ie) Painted Black to shine to their best potential. Maybe she is not the best match for every horse, (who by the way is) and maybe Idool and her never really went on to greatness.

Some of the Rolkur still pictures with the close up of the horse's eye and the gaping mouth etc, turn my stomach a bit. Some of these are pictures of the same riders ie) Edward Gal who I have so much admired in the competition arena. I would not want my horse ridden like that. However, this video is really not so awful. I don't think it was abusive. I have witnessed successful trainers who are not associated with Rolkur schooling their horses in a way I found much more abusive than this. And to state it once again, I think the average horse endures worse abuse by the not so skilled rider anyway.

Dalfan you crack me up. I will not comment on your riding. You seem to love your horses and they don't look to me like they are being abused either. You are very single-minded in your pursuit here. Maybe your energy would be more productively spent elsewhere however, because I just don't see you changing anyone's mind.

Moll
Jan. 13, 2007, 12:52 PM
Someone who knows, what happened with Idool? He never really made it in the big time did he? Is he retired?

Idool was sold to a Junior rider (as he never really seemed to realise his potential at international GP level?) called Danielle van Aalderen (I believe her grandfather was the buyer). Idool died suddenly out in the field two months later. van Aalderen sr sued the sellers, apparently saying the horse had been damaged goods when sold. AvG and SJ decided to settle.

Horsedances
Jan. 13, 2007, 01:29 PM
Idool was sold to a Junior rider (as he never really seemed to realise his potential at international GP level?) called Danielle van Aalderen (I believe her grandfather was the buyer). Idool died suddenly out in the field two months later. van Aalderen sr sued the sellers, apparently saying the horse had been damaged goods when sold. AvG and SJ decided to settle.

AvG/SJ and van Aalderen decided to settle. Don't try to explain this courtcase in a nutshell, because there was muchhhhh more to it.


Theo

Moll
Jan. 13, 2007, 01:35 PM
Well if you know more about it, please explain. Otherwise don't complain: somebody asked, I answered.

Dalfan
Jan. 13, 2007, 01:54 PM
Dalfan you crack me up.

Thanks. I'm glad SOMEONE appreciates by humor. :D


AvG/SJ and van Aalderen decided to settle.

Were the terms of the settlement made public?

Horsedances
Jan. 13, 2007, 02:19 PM
Well if you know more about it, please explain. Otherwise don't complain: somebody asked, I answered.

To settle you always need both parties. And...this is not complaining this is about using the right words.

En verder heb ik geen goesting om ouwe koeien uit de sloot te halen.:D

Moll
Jan. 13, 2007, 02:31 PM
Ja, om du tycker det är kul att skriva holländska, gör det bara :D

nero
Jan. 13, 2007, 06:09 PM
I haven't read much of this thread, same old same old, but I do want to answer Monica's and Dalfan's question about what someone who defends Anky's right to train this way sees as good in the video. I will not use any of those 'deflection' tactics you seem so keen to argue is all we can do!!!!!

Most importantly this is a horse in a training or schooling session. Horses are continually schooled everyday, even the GP ones!! So Anky is attemping a specific schooling goal here and as someone who has seen her shcool and train and clinic quite a bit I'd say she is attempting to get the horse super responsive to the leg or 'go-forward' aid, she asks for instant response to this aid from all her horses. She is tuning this with Idool here, she is less concerned with competition frame or even tempo, she wants that instant forward, sometimes one must sacrifice other apsects of a ride to attain one specific goal, she'll bring it all together later and/or in the competition arena. And for this reason I think, while not pretty 100% of the time if you are fixating on tempo and evenness (although I have to say by and large I think Idool is doing pretty well here too, power, control, he just tries too hard some times to give her the response she is asking for and loses rhythm momentarily), that this is good training. She is getting him to listen to her aids, to concentrate to her request to move forward instantly. She is achieving her goal here with Idool.

I like it. Training international GP isn't always graceful, but it can be effective, like this example. And here Anky isn't trying to make you coo over how lovely her pony looks, she is trying to get a highly tuned response from her horse in a training session. Which she is.

As for the tail swishing of Idool versus Dalfan's horses, well Dalfan your horses isn't exactly performing piaffe and passage is it? I'd be alarmed if it WERE swishing as much as Idool's considering it seems its only doing w,t and c with minimal collection, connection, engagement or forward.

nero
Jan. 13, 2007, 06:39 PM
And I am just curious why pro-rk riders get so, so upset when rk vids are posted. that's all. I don't, nor do I think do any others, you are clutching at straws I think. Personally I think its good and happily support what I see in the rk videos I've seen when they are accurate, unedited etc.. No problem whatsoever with you or anyone posting them. Enjoy watching them and discussing them, in fact when I first saw this Idool video in 2001 and just getting into dressage seriously again after many years off I wasn't a fan, but now I have seen Anky train and understand more about her methods and the rationale behind them, in short am now educated a bit about dressage training, this video contains nothing I find even mildly offensive. So getting it out in the open has helped this little black duck appreciate the method and accept it. So the discussion can help to promote these sort of concepts and methods. Which I guess is contrary to the OP's intent!!!!!

siegi b.
Jan. 13, 2007, 06:54 PM
Welcome back, Nero!!!

nero
Jan. 13, 2007, 06:58 PM
Right then,all done?
In that case,may I just say,I like the Anky video :)
I like the horse,its type,its energy,its submissiveness and its willingness to try.It isn't perfect all the time,but then,perfect is the enemy of good.This is a good horse.I like the rider,I like her ability to train a horse,and her way of making not so great better,then good,then great.
I like that she can ride hot horses,and train them to do tests that make a tingle go down your spine.I like it that she encourages the horse to express itself,I like it that she knows what to do to keep the horses focussed even so.
Riding well is not about the left hand.

Great post. :-)