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Horsedances
Jan. 6, 2007, 01:09 PM
There is an upcoming amount of people who publish their rides on YOURTUBE. The most comments these people receive are possitive, and seldom you see some negative comments. I don't mean traininglevel or level I rides. But when it comes down to level 3 and higher, and people ask "please critique" they must be able to handle critique.

This week I was watching one of these video's together with a GrandPrix rider and a I-judge, the red-line in their comments was that the lack of collection througout the whole test resulted in bad (half) pirouette's, and tons of problems in the flying changes. The horse was riden in such a long frame that we joked "the tail is still at A and the Nose is already at C" .

When I posted some very constructive comments about the ride, the video was removed and the rider was angry.

Please take in consideration that we (over here) are much more direct in our comments. "Maybee you short work on your seat" is very often translated in our language as "First start working on your seat".

In general I noticed that tooo many horses in the USA are riden much "te veel uit elkaar"

Theo

Shiaway
Jan. 6, 2007, 01:14 PM
Theo,
you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.

STF
Jan. 6, 2007, 01:29 PM
I understand what Theo is saying but in the same instance, I have a new rule in life and that is to take care of myself, my horses and my riding. Others will do as they choose and thats their problem or not.

nhwr
Jan. 6, 2007, 02:16 PM
1) I am not a big fan of judging rides on video. I think it doesn't show a good ride very well and it can make a mediocre ride look OK.

2) I have to know something about someone to know whether their opinion is relevant and valuable to me or not. So in that context, I probably wouldn't care too much about comments posted on the internet. In fact, I guess I'd be unlikely to ask for any comments. But if I did and you said my riding sucked, I wouldn't cry about it.

YankeeLawyer
Jan. 6, 2007, 02:22 PM
There is an upcoming amount of people who publish their rides on YOURTUBE. The most comments these people receive are possitive, and seldom you see some negative comments. I don't mean traininglevel or level I rides. But when it comes down to level 3 and higher, and people ask "please critique" they must be able to handle critique.

This week I was watching one of these video's together with a GrandPrix rider and a I-judge, the red-line in their comments was that the lack of collection througout the whole test resulted in bad (half) pirouette's, and tons of problems in the flying changes. The horse was riden in such a long frame that we joked "the tail is still at A and the Nose is already at C" .

When I posted some very constructive comments about the ride, the video was removed and the rider was angry.

Please take in consideration that we (over here) are much more direct in our comments. "Maybee you short work on your seat" is very often translated in our language as "First start working on your seat".

In general I noticed that tooo many horses in the USA are riden much "te veel uit elkaar"

Theo

I'd be psyched if a knowledgeable judge or trainer offered his/her critique of one of my rides.

siegi b.
Jan. 6, 2007, 02:59 PM
I think in general people in the US try to be nice.... some may not necessarily mean it, but they will say nice things about each other (the notable exception is TOB when the subject is AVG or anybody else not paying homage to the ODGs). :-)

I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs. My guess is that these folks post their video thinking that what they did was really good and, therefore, will be admired by the masses. Then, when they get the slightest negative comment their bubble bursts and they withdraw or turn nasty.

You have seen it on this BB when people will post a picture or video and ask for comments. And yes, the best response is to wither be quiet or say something nice because anything less will not be received well.

I can't believe you made me write all this, Theo!! :-)

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 6, 2007, 03:02 PM
We see that a lot on the Bulletin boards as well. Someone will post a thread saying, "my new horse, please critique" then they will say, "here's my new horse, she's a 16 hand daughter of Rubenstein, I've been riding her about a minute, what do you think of her?"

Of course, those of us who like to critique will spend some time typing diligent and diplomatic replies sprinkled with some helpful hints.

Then, the rider comes back and says, "You are all so negative. I did not ask for a critique! I just wanted to see what you though of my new horse."

Sooo, I think it would be much better if people were honest in titling their threads. They should say "my new horse, please hit me with a lot of false platitudes, because I've got buyer's remorse and I can't tell my husband I might have made an expensive mistake."


posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs. LOL! The same goes for putting a picture of yourself up on the bulletin boards. It's better to say, "I'm posting this for a friend." The best ever was the girl who said, "this is my identical twin sister." Yeah, right!

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 6, 2007, 03:12 PM
OMG, KathyJohnson that was so funny.

Theo, do you find the Flemish people in Belgium to be as direct as the Dutch people?

sm
Jan. 6, 2007, 03:59 PM
theo, you tried to do well. Let it go, have some choklit.

I only wonder what this rider's trainer was telling him/her all along for your critique to be such a suprise.

Regarding directness and people's cultures: this was an FEI test published internationally. I believe people can be equally direct regardless of their nationality. Have some choklit... just don't critique the little kids anytime soon on their darling ponies, leave it to their trainers :)

Leena
Jan. 6, 2007, 05:49 PM
It was very generous to spend time watching the video and trying to be constructive.
If I ever do one, I'll let you know and be very open for every comment !

The problem here is that our society is build on the medal culture; I have been trained in my youth by European coach and learned to shut up, listen and execute. This is not how people think here; everything take such a personnal side.

I think there is smart people that understand you cannot grow without suffering a bit, at least in their pride. I love to talk with them.

Off course this is my very personnal opinion !

merrygoround
Jan. 6, 2007, 06:08 PM
I tend to go with most of the comments. You haven't seen me post a picture or a video, and you never will. If I want a critique, I pay for it, along with what I hope is helpful instruction, on how to at least 1/2 way fix it. If I want just plain critics I can listen to my family.:lol:

Horsedances!! please trasnslate your last line. Knowing you, I probably agree, but first I want to hear it. Nicht sprechen sie Deutsche, or Dutch. :)

Funckyfilly
Jan. 6, 2007, 06:15 PM
He said horses and riders ride too much from each other. I assume he means not as a pair or in harmony.

tarnia
Jan. 6, 2007, 06:35 PM
I think it is also possible that there are misunderstandings. I have sometimes read comments that came across to me as very harsh (and I try and be open-minded, I really do-when writing comments, too). Sometimes language barrier too. Still, try and give the person the benefit of the doubt ;) Harsh or otherwise, they are trying to help! And as I think SLC said once, free advice is worth what you pay for it;) Not that I haven't personally received helpful advice on here, but the sentiment stands!

I agree with posting what you really want to hear ;) e.g. I have seen posts with "please be gentle" added to the subject line. As a courtesy to others so they don't take the time to write an in-depth "criticism" when you just want to be told you rock;)

I don't think they are necessarily exhibitionists, although that probably comes into some of it. I know I sometimes just want another opinion, and since there is only one real dressage coach at my barn...;) I just take what I hear with a grain of salt!:p

As to the comment "are you always so friendly"...I am Canadian, not American, but still anytime I or an aquaintance has taken a lesson with someone European or even predominatly-European trained, they have found them direct, at the VERY least (usually harsh, mean, negative...:P) So I think it is possible we soften our critiques as much as possible (Instead of "can you feel the wrong diagonal? That's REALLY great feel! So sit for two..." to a intermediate-adv rider (canadian) "OMG, change your diagonal!" (European-trained-->more to-the-pioint, but no "positive") :p That is just my limited experience, though. I would also like to add those trainers (more direct) have usually turned out the best pupils and become the most popular (for those that can handle it:p ). Go figure! ;)

Hazelnut
Jan. 6, 2007, 07:15 PM
Oh, my, I have a picture in my profile. :eek: I just thought people would like to see my cute horse...I had NO IDEA I am an exhibitionist or have those kind of tendancies. :confused:

I love to see other people's horses. :yes: And I love to see them riding their horse, no matter what discipline.

Of course, I'm not asking for opinions or critiques on my riding. I have my trainer and my very critical self for that.

Well, the pictures been up quite a while. I am outed for the exhibitionist that I am and I am NOT taking it down.;)

Dalfan
Jan. 6, 2007, 07:24 PM
will be admired by the masses.

Well, I know that is my MAIN reason for doing dressage. Yesssss:lol:

Velvet
Jan. 6, 2007, 07:35 PM
First, are you sure it was because of what YOU said that it was removed?

Second, did you post the "joke" you have in your OP?

Third, since you are the one who posted the reply and not the judge (which is what you said in your OP), then they have no reason to think your comments were of value. If the judge had posted them, using their real name and that name was known and respected by the person putting up the video, then it might have some value to them. People have to know you from a hole in the ground to accept criticism--especially if it has jokes in it that might seem mean spirited to them.

Dalfan
Jan. 6, 2007, 07:38 PM
And anyway, I was thinking that one MUST have a little bit of exhibitionist in them to want to go out and "perform" in front of other people. You really do need that "HEY, look at me and my beast - watch what we can do" attitude. JMHO:D

Watching Robert Dover in a symposium video - Something to the effect that when you enter the ring, you WANT the masses to be watching you.

mazu
Jan. 6, 2007, 08:30 PM
There's nothing "exhibitionist" about posting videos on youtube. It's just a different medium. I could maybe understand that criticism if it didn't come from someone posting random pictures of herself in leggings on the Internet for all and sundry to see. :lol: (I do have therapist suggestions if this is a problem you'd like to work on.)

I agree with Velvet: there's no way for the recipient of the critique to have known it was from someone with expertise or not. No doubt the person who posted the video received more than one less-than-tactful comment (and it may be a language thing, HD, but sometimes you do come across in an unkind way--as you did in the first post here. Granted, I have no room to talk). I wouldn't interpret it as someone not wanting to learn, but rather, just someone who wasn't prepared for the response they got. It's a very human reaction. Not some indication that non-Europeans suck at life (or at least riding).

If her trainer does not think it a problem, why would you expect the rider to accept an anonymous Internet person's advice?

Horsedances
Jan. 6, 2007, 08:56 PM
The worlds biggest equestrian bulletin board is BOKT, and also at this forum you find a lot of links to rides from posters, Germany also have some BB's where you can find some stuff, Belgium has a few etc...etc...

When I watch these video's I noticed very often that the US-riders ride their horses in a very long frame, without any collection. This is imho the reason that so many exercises which need collection are going wrong. Again....... I am not talking about training-level or level I riders, but somewhere along the line you have to ask collection from your horse if you want to move up the levels.

Many people on this forum understand exactly what I mean about being harsh, and many people understand that this is the only way to reach the top. Did you ever listen to the toptrainers when they work with their students at home. (no not the public clinics). I know many riders who are now at the top who where extra motivated by their trainers when he said something to their students like "I hope you don't think that you ever can earn money with the way you ride your horse". Believe me; when trainers make the efford to shout and get mad at you, they see something good laying ahead for you in your dressage-carreer.

And YES training over here is not a chat around the coffee-table, it is mostly (certainly for the lower level riders) "it's my way or the high way".

To answer another question, Yes there is a lot of differences between Belgium and Dutch people, also and even in the dressage-world. Belgium people are much more introvert, but also much more easy going than the Dutch people. The most important thing is that in Belgium I never saw a rider or trainer go to the judges and ask for an explanation for a certain score, while in Holland this is very normal, sometimes you don't even have to ask for it, because the judge is coming to your table and tells you why he or she gave his or her score for a certain movement.

Furthermore I am not a diplomat and don't have plans to hold back my comments or polish them in a way that everybody likes it. I am not running for the White House !

Theo

zinnniaz
Jan. 6, 2007, 09:35 PM
Theo,
you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.

What she said.

Horsedances
Jan. 6, 2007, 09:43 PM
Theo,
you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.

Where you the poster of this video ?

Theo

YoungFilly
Jan. 6, 2007, 09:57 PM
I think in general people in the US try to be nice.... some may not necessarily mean it, but they will say nice things about each other (the notable exception is TOB when the subject is AVG or anybody else not paying homage to the ODGs). :-)

I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs. My guess is that these folks post their video thinking that what they did was really good and, therefore, will be admired by the masses. Then, when they get the slightest negative comment their bubble bursts and they withdraw or turn nasty.

You have seen it on this BB when people will post a picture or video and ask for comments. And yes, the best response is to wither be quiet or say something nice because anything less will not be received well.

I can't believe you made me write all this, Theo!! :-)

Segi, I think you are not correct in your assessment. I have put videos up on YouTube of both my horses looking for constructive criticism. I was deathly afraid, but most people here are fairly knowledgeable and therefore any helpful comments were welcome. I don't think that makes me an exhibitionist. I was terrified, but one of my horses I have only recently gotten help with, so I was looking to get help with her.

I think its ok to post videos on youtube and share them here. BUT, you have to be able to take the constructive criticism, and weed out the obviously mean comments that inevitably comes along.

Thanks Theo for offering up a good topic. This bb has been very, very boring all week long. :)

Halt Near X
Jan. 6, 2007, 10:29 PM
Heh. This discussion happens in every critique-oriented community I've ever been in. IMO, a community tends to develop an expected/accepted level of criticism, and that can range from sugar-coated praise to blunt, almost harsh criticism. Both posters and commenters, as far as I'm concerned, have a responsibility to understand the community they're participating in-- if you post a video on a "harsh" site, don't whine when it gets picked apart. On the other hand, if you post a "harsh" comment on a sugar-coated site... don't whine when people don't want to hear it.

Take the time to figure out what the community expects with regards to criticism. If you don't like that level of criticism, find a community that matches your philosophy. Or buck the community's expectations, but don't expect everyone to bow down to you when you do. What you have to say might well be valuable--just not to that particular community.

Mozart
Jan. 6, 2007, 10:58 PM
I think that if someone from a bb links to a video and ask for a critique or "what do you think" then they should expect people will actually tell them what they think. I would also hope that they don't have a regular coach and not much opportunity to clinic and are actually hoping for useful comment. If they have a coach..why are they asking the nameless faceless masses on the internet? I can imagine that if you were a coach opening up a video of what turned out to be your student you would be more than somewhat taken aback...

For the person who has a regular coach..that they have confidence in...why would they put up a video on a public site?? I could see asking someone, who you know to have credibility, please have a look at this..
But just asking anyone's opinion? I don't get it.

dutchmike
Jan. 6, 2007, 10:58 PM
Theo je laat het klinken alsof iedereen in Nederland zo goed rijd en je weet net zo goed als ik dat dat niet het geval is. Dressuur in de USA is nog niet de helft zo populair als in Nederland. De USDF heeft 40000 leden en dat is niets voor een land zo groot als dit. Deze mensen moeten aangemoedigd worden en jou manier van praten helpt niet om dressuur te promoten. Af en toe kom je verder met honing dan met de zweep.

canyonoak
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:04 PM
so, armed with my beloved if clumsy intertran.com, what I think you are saying is:
(basically)

' Theo, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'...

okey-dokey!

LOL

Horsedances
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:06 PM
YF,

There is nothing wrong with your videos, and yes maybee when I send them to Coby, Johan or Inge they can find something. Something to help you. But (again) in general I noticed that these posters ask for critique, and when someone give them what they asked for, they are furious.

Theo

dutchmike
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:10 PM
so, armed with my beloved if clumsy intertran.com, what I think you are saying is:
(basically)

' Theo, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'...

okey-dokey!

LOL

to catch flies poop works best;)

Horsedances
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:13 PM
Theo je laat het klinken alsof iedereen in Nederland zo goed rijd en je weet net zo goed als ik dat dat niet het geval is. Dressuur in de USA is nog niet de helft zo populair als in Nederland. De USDF heeft 40000 leden en dat is niets voor een land zo groot als dit. Deze mensen moeten aangemoedigd worden en jou manier van praten helpt niet om dressuur te promoten. Af en toe kom je verder met honing dan met de zweep.

Oh no DutchMike, I don't come with honey or the whip. I come with my opinion. I told here already I am not trying to become populair and cover my words in silk. Furthermore don't put words in my mouth which i didn't use.

And if I may give you and advice google around on YouTube and see for yourself.

dutchmike
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:30 PM
Oh no DutchMike, I don't come with honey or the whip. I come with my opinion. I told here already I am not trying to become populair and cover my words in silk. Furthermore don't put words in my mouth which i didn't use.

And if I may give you and advice google around on YouTube and see for yourself.

I don't need to see youtube to give my opinion I do that in person when I am asked for it. Live and let live. If those people are happy with what they do then who are you or who ever to knock them down. It is easy to criticise others but hard to encourage them to do better without being patronizing

Chipngrace
Jan. 6, 2007, 11:45 PM
I think I've killed random people with my youtube footage of my riding.

YankeeLawyer
Jan. 7, 2007, 12:06 AM
I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs.

:lol: Too hilarious. For the record, I wouldn't even know how to post on youtube.

YoungFilly
Jan. 7, 2007, 12:08 AM
.

Sabine
Jan. 7, 2007, 03:04 AM
Theo,
as German and rider from childhood- I have to say that in the US we are more tactful about hurting people's feelings and being more remote in not taking the risk of telling an unpleasant truth...some of this might be founded in the victorian roots of this country of proper conduct and respect towards others that you don't know.

I know it certainly can stand in the way of getting proper instruction and getting ahead in your training...I have often experienced this myself and therefore resorted to fellow Germans in being taught and helping me- because I find once they realize that you are on the same page with them- they will be honest and tough and push you forward. The sad part about really learning how to ride dressage well is that your trainer must have permission to be tough - because otherwise it might take longer than a lifetime to learn it and become really competent- especially as amateur with limited riding time...

Rusty Stirrup
Jan. 7, 2007, 07:22 AM
People suck.....er...um...but they all ride beautifully and show a lot of potential.

zinnniaz
Jan. 7, 2007, 07:48 AM
I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.

siegi b.
Jan. 7, 2007, 07:50 AM
Happy Vagrant - that was perfectly put and I couldn't agree with you more.

Thank you!

dutchmike
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:36 AM
I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.

exactly

Hazelnut
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:12 AM
I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.

Well said. I like to see the rides of those who put them up for critique. I learn from them. I try to evaluate what I see against what others say. If we all went into it with the spirit that Zinnia recommends, this would be an instructive opportunity, indeed.

Ja Da Dee
Jan. 7, 2007, 01:19 PM
I think that a good teacher will know how to work with each of their students to get the best performance out of them. As I've learned from my dutch dressage trainer that when my horse does something wrong, not to get after him, but to remember that this is part of the learning process, so does my trainer know that when I make a mistake, it's also part of the learning process. He can tell me what I've done wrong, but yelling would serve no purpose. Now, if I wasnt listening or trying, then a little "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" may be in order, but it's not the general tone of our lessons.

Velvet
Jan. 7, 2007, 01:38 PM
The problem is not a matter of Victorian roots in this country (that's more British than American), it's a matter of the current turn to political correctness. It really is making a mess of things over here. You can't say anything to anyone that might be offensive, and yet you have the right to free speech??? It doesn't always work that way.

Bad manners are one thing, but being responsible for how everyone else on the planet just might incorrectly interpret your statements is a whole other issue. You can phrase things as carefully as you like, but some people will still hear what the want. Just take a look out here. Some posts are taken at least two, if not three, different ways, depending upon the reader (and how they feel that day). Then again, often people are just downright mean, and that really doesn't leave any room for interpretation.

Just as the person reading your reply was annoyed, you are annoyed by their response. Seems to be a parallel there in communication issues...

Tiempo
Jan. 7, 2007, 02:20 PM
There is an important difference between posting your video to a forum and asking for critique and simply posting on youtube.

To say that people posting vids of themselves 'smacks of exhibitionism' I think is harsh and unfair..

I have posted vids of my horses on youtube not to ellicit comments,or to show off to the general public but as an easy way to share what's going on in my life with family and friends who live far away.

So,to me it smacks of self-importance to post a negative (unsolicited)criticism on youtube.

Liz
Jan. 7, 2007, 02:29 PM
Who has the time to look at random videos on Youthe tube and give critiques to people they do not know and are not paying them?

What does that say about a person?

claire
Jan. 7, 2007, 02:49 PM
Who has the time to look at random videos on Youthe tube and give critiques to people they do not know and are not paying them?

What does that say about a person?


:yes:

JackSprats Mom
Jan. 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
If they have a coach..why are they asking the nameless faceless masses on the internet?

Because there's more then one way to do things and the internet allows the input of the masses....who knows you might actually learn something new.

nhwr
Jan. 7, 2007, 03:29 PM
My impression of many Europeans is that they don't understand/accept the American habit of focusing on the positive aspect of most things. Many view this tendency as dishonest or at least fake. Many Americans tend to view many Europeans as unnecessarily harsh. In reality, I think this comes a difference in culture or social behavior. When I was studying German, I watch a lot of German videos and TV. It seemed to me that Germans have severely restricted facial expressions, their lower faces hardly move at all. When pointed this out to my instructor, who was German, he said that many Europeans find American effusiveness to false and exaggerated. Go figure.

I am not inclined to offer up negative criticism purely for its own sake. If I think a person will be able to do something useful with, fine. Otherwise, I used a modification of Bill Clinton's "nice tie" comment ;)

Velvet
Jan. 7, 2007, 03:55 PM
Funny, nhwr, but I knew an old German trainer who always used something about the rider's boots being nicely polished. :lol: I also know that I heard Walter Zettl use a similar statement. So I think that German's do know how to say something that comes across as nice, sort of like the southern "well bless your heart". ;) Sort of funny that they DO have a similar saying, but there's is specifically for dressage. :lol:

Guess people are still people no matter where you go...

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 04:18 PM
Who has the time to look at random videos on Youthe tube and give critiques to people they do not know and are not paying them?

What does that say about a person?

When people post these links on a bulletin board and ask for critique, is something else than looking at random video's.

P.R.E.
Jan. 7, 2007, 04:24 PM
My impression of many Europeans is that they don't understand/accept the American habit of focusing on the positive aspect of most things. Many view this tendency as dishonest or at least fake. Many Americans tend to view many Europeans as unnecessarily harsh. In reality, I think this comes a difference in culture or social behavior. When I was studying German, I watch a lot of German videos and TV. It seemed to me that Germans have severely restricted facial expressions, their lower faces hardly move at all. When pointed this out to my instructor, who was German, he said that many Europeans find American effusiveness to false and exaggerated. Go figure.

If Americans are considered effusiveness to false because they smile, where are we Latins considered!:confused: :confused:

P.R.E.
Jan. 7, 2007, 04:27 PM
Who has the time to look at random videos on Youthe tube and give critiques to people they do not know and are not paying them?

What does that say about a person?

Is not that I think is right, but Youtube is about that, is a community where you post a video and people bagan making comments and discussing if they happen to have some interest in your video. There are other place where you can post a video, jut be seen and no one can comment, but Youtube is about the interaction of the members.
So, when you post in Youtube you have to be aware or what are you getting in to.

canyonoak
Jan. 7, 2007, 04:50 PM
So I went back to read Theo's original post, and what I understood from this reading is that the original video was on youtube, AND that the person-who-posted asked for critique.

That Theo and a judge and a trainer watched the video, that everyone gave their two cents, and that Theo posted a critique.

That the original video poerson was ticked off by the critique and removed the video.

And that Theo asked, on this BB, why did they put the video there in the first place AND ASK FOR CRITIQUE?

Now, as no one in their right (or wrong) minds has time to type in the word 'dressur' or 'dressage' and actually WATCH all of youtube's output, Im guessing that at least one of the trio of critiquers KNEW the rider or the horse in the youtube video <g>.

In any case, I think that if one posts a video to a public place and asks for critique--well, stand up and be brave or don't bother asking.

vanillabean
Jan. 7, 2007, 05:08 PM
I think there is a big difference too, between someone posting a video of themselves and their horse on youtube when they are an amateur and someone doing so as a pro. If you are an amateur you may be trying to show off to your friends/peers, or get advice from more knowledgeable people, but you will not recieve money or clients as a result of your efforts. If you are a pro it is a form of marketing, and they may get more recognition but they may also be passed around the internet as an example of what not to do. They have to take the good with the bad as they are trying to promote themselves in the end. Many pros in the US suffer from "big fish in small pond" syndrome. Youtube and other public forums help to eliminate this which will upset some people- oh well. This process needs to occur for dressage to continue to improve in the U.S.

Liz
Jan. 7, 2007, 07:54 PM
So you posted a critique and the rider couldn't take it. Why then go on another forum and use this as an opportunity to make generalizations about Americans?

P.R.E.
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:03 PM
In general I noticed that tooo many horses in the USA are riden much "te veel uit elkaar"

Theo

Is funny because I have also noticed something similar, professional riders that go to horse shows (of course those are public venues) and they get extremelly upset when someone critisize their riding, they even threat people who take pictures or videos of them. Ooops, sorry that is not American riders, is actually Dutch riders:D :D :D

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:31 PM
So you posted a critique and the rider couldn't take it. Why then go on another forum and use this as an opportunity to make generalizations about Americans?

Because I noticed that horses in America are probably 20 inches longer :D

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 08:32 PM
Is funny because I have also noticed something similar, professional riders that go to horse shows (of course those are public venues) and they get extremelly upset when someone critisize their riding, they even threat people who take pictures or videos of them. Ooops, sorry that is not American riders, is actually Dutch riders:D :D :D

Did you address this critique to the rider, and did he or she ask you for critique:confused:

P.R.E.
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:09 PM
Did you address this critique to the rider, and did he or she ask you for critique:confused:

When you are a professional, you accept the fact that you are going to be exposed to critique. It happens in every sport, but in Dressag in Holland. I have nothing aggainst that rider, actually is the opposite. I do believe in freedom of speech, so I don't like the thug that tries to intimidate people.

Sorry, I forgot, i am not supposed to say anything because is a Dutch rider:no: :no: But you can make generalizations about Americans, doesn't seem fair.

So you noticed that horses in America, are 20 inches longer? I noticed while going through a history book, that if it would not be because of those Americans you would be speaking German instead of Dutch:D :D

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:26 PM
When you are a professional, you accept the fact that you are going to be exposed to critique. It happens in every sport, but in Dressag in Holland. I have nothing aggainst that rider, actually is the opposite. I do believe in freedom of speech, so I don't like the thug that tries to intimidate people.

Sorry, I forgot, i am not supposed to say anything because is a Dutch rider:no: :no: But you can make generalizations about Americans, doesn't seem fair.

So you noticed that horses in America, are 20 inches longer? I noticed while going through a history book, that if it would not be because of those Americans you would be speaking German instead of Dutch:D :D

You must be switched over from UDBB, because the same remark was made over there. The next remark (also from the UDBB) "I hope that when our troops leave Iraq they have some bombs left to throw on Holland" will probably be your next posting.

And yes we are very happy that we can speak German, English, French and Dutch, and our history books tells us that we were liberated by the Canadians, Australians, Polish, English and Americans. Our history books also tells us that the Dutch sold New York for 10 $. But this is all stuff for another forum, don't you think ?!

I just can give people like you one advice "start learning Chinese" :D

Theo

Velvet
Jan. 7, 2007, 09:58 PM
P.R.E., I wouldn't judge all Dutch people by Horsedances. That wouldn't be fair to the Dutch.

Karoline
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:21 PM
You must be switched over from UDBB, because the same remark was made over there. The next remark (also from the UDBB) "I hope that when our troops leave Iraq they have some bombs left to throw on Holland" will probably be your next posting.

And yes we are very happy that we can speak German, English, French and Dutch, and our history books tells us that we were liberated by the Canadians, Australians, Polish, English and Americans. Our history books also tells us that the Dutch sold New York for 10 $. But this is all stuff for another forum, don't you think ?!

I just can give people like you one advice "start learning Chinese" :D

Theo

I went on UDBB and looked for your quote and did not find it. Can you post a link? I think Americans are taught to provide feedback by always starting by something nice and to give constructive criticism rather then blunt criticism. Its a cultural difference. Another one would be that here in college teachers will bend over backward to help a student succeed - give extra assignments, makeup exams, open hours for consultation, etc.. none of that was available in french college. The feeling one got was that the teachers were there to see you fail and that it was survival of the brightest and these got a big dose of ego bruising in the process. Here teachers give As. I grew up where teachers would not give As on the principle that A is perfect and no student is perfect. And its a much bigger country so perhaps pleasant superficial contact is more confortable?

dutchmike
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:23 PM
So you noticed that horses in America, are 20 inches longer? I noticed while going through a history book, that if it would not be because of those Americans you would be speaking German instead of Dutch:D :D

what a stupid remark. That is like saying that if youre forefathers weren't european you would be speaking apache or something. I disagree with Theo about sarcastic remarks but your answer is just plain stupid.

Shiaway
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:24 PM
<Where you the poster of this video ?>

Yes you found me out! :rolleyes:

Theo, I said what I did because every time you post something on this board it goes along the lines of "why do you stupid Americans do this?"

What would you think if I came onto a Dutch bb and posted something like: "you stupid Dutch people, you don't know how to ride and you always yell at your students."

In fact, I think that only on a board predominated by Americans could you come and criticize the predominating culture. I'd bet you most other nationalities wouldn't tolerate it. But I think us, silly Americans, are able to self-criticize a whole lot better than you think. I mean look, you have lots of people agreeing with you every time you post something negative about them.

Theo, you do what probably many people do who travel to a foreign place to live: you immediately start comparing cultures When I lived in Japan, for the first month I think I went around saying: geez, in America we do this but you stupid Japanese have to do it this way... LOL I got over that quickly. It was like a bit of culture shock or something.

I'm sure you wouldn't want me to judge all Europeans based upon your actions, right? So don't pick and choose certain people/examples and judge all Americans by those. It doesn't become you.

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:46 PM
I went on UDBB and looked for your quote and did not find it. Can you post a link? I think Americans are taught to provide feedback by always starting by something nice and to give constructive criticism rather then blunt criticism. Its a cultural difference. Another one would be that here in college teachers will bend over backward to help a student succeed - give extra assignments, makeup exams, open hours for consultation, etc.. none of that was available in french college. The feeling one got was that the teachers were there to see you fail and that it was survival of the brightest and these got a big dose of ego bruising in the process. Here teachers give As. I grew up where teachers would not give As on the principle that A is perfect and no student is perfect. And its a much bigger country so perhaps pleasant superficial contact is more confortable?

Just do a search on the postings of Mark Sussol and you sure will find it.
It had to do with RollKür.

And we have a saying in Holland "Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden".

Theo

canyonoak
Jan. 7, 2007, 10:54 PM
Theo definitely does not need assistance , hahahahahah.

But I do not believe he has ever called anyone a stupid American.

And in all his posts, I have never felt the least belittled or put upon.

Horsedances
Jan. 7, 2007, 11:17 PM
Theo definitely does not need assistance , hahahahahah.

But I do not believe he has ever called anyone a stupid American.

And in all his posts, I have never felt the least belittled or put upon.

Lots of my American cliënts, who also became my life-time friends told me over and over again "My dear Theo, you are to professional in your approach". I always gave them the same answer ; "when you don't want to reach the top, just give your horse and the judges a break and start riding in the woods or along the sea shore" .

Theo

Karoline
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:02 AM
"Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden."

Literal Translation: "Gentle healers make stinking wounds."

Meaning: "It is better to treat a problem thoroughly even if the treatment is painful, otherwise it may get worse."

English equivalent: A stitch in time, saves nine (?)

I have to tell you the word stinkende had me worried :-)

http://learndutch.elanguageschool.net/mod/resource/view.php?id=131

Sabine
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:04 AM
Boy this has become another snarkfest- mostly of those who have one or the other axe to grind...I think Theo made a good point and it is best understood maybe by those that have both cultures...things are definitely different over there and if you have ever ridden in Holland or Germany you will know and understand what he meant. It might have come off a little bit like ' let me remind you of your big chip on your shoulder' but I think that was not his intention- more like ' wow- you guys are different and do things very different over there'.

And yes Velvet- you might be right- although I do believe that core roots of the british victorian conduct are still very prevalent in this country. I also think that one major thing that Theo can NOT even understand in a million years- is the terrible lack of qualified experienced dressage trainers in this country and the incredible amount of good choices he could make if he searched for a dressage trainer in his country...not that he needs one..--OMG- there is just no comparison- and add to that size of the country and miles to travel in order to get to someone that actually can help....not in a million years is there a comparison...and I would venture to say- Theo doesn't know that....hey Theo- when have you last travelled the US??? and if so where were you??? Let's all invite him for a quick info-tour!!

Sabine
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:09 AM
"Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden."

Literal Translation: "Gentle healers make stinking wounds."

Meaning: "It is better to treat a problem thoroughly even if the treatment is painful, otherwise it may get worse."

English equivalent: A stitch in time, saves nine (?)

I have to tell you the word stinkende had me worried :-)

don't say that - I think it's one of those great words that says more than it means...:) (if you can get my ghist...)

Alagirl
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:10 AM
I kinda skimmed over this thread - very lightly....

I think what an outsider can't grasp is the make nice mentality, especialy southerners subscribe to. Even if you suck, they'll never tell it to your face, ore - worse - compliment you on what they really think is your worst feature!

I guess if you are not used to someone telling you that you are not the promqueen, it's a tough pill to swallow!

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 01:16 AM
what a stupid remark. That is like saying that if youre forefathers weren't european you would be speaking apache or something. I disagree with Theo about sarcastic remarks but your answer is just plain stupid.

True is always hard! I am more sensitive to people attacking Americans, because I am an imigrant in the US and this Country has been extremelly generous with me. Sorry if you don't like it, hit me but never mess with my friends or with my adoptive Country.

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 01:24 AM
You must be switched over from UDBB, because the same remark was made over there. The next remark (also from the UDBB) "I hope that when our troops leave Iraq they have some bombs left to throw on Holland" will probably be your next posting.

And yes we are very happy that we can speak German, English, French and Dutch, and our history books tells us that we were liberated by the Canadians, Australians, Polish, English and Americans. Our history books also tells us that the Dutch sold New York for 10 $. But this is all stuff for another forum, don't you think ?!

I just can give people like you one advice "start learning Chinese" :D

Theo

Because I don't play blind to your nasty comments you think I am part of the UDBB. No, no, no your arrogant comments here are the start and end of my reaction. This is not about any RK or irrelvant subjects, is about learning to be respectful to other people, which you are not. Because some people celebrate your comments about how great you are while ridiculazing other people, doesn't mean that everyone is going to take it.

My mistake was to let my anger take against the Dutch, because I am sure that people like you are just a minority in a beautiful Country like Holland.

Hazelnut
Jan. 8, 2007, 06:16 AM
Regarding critiques,
My grandmother always used to say, "Is there a nicer way to say that?":)

She was right.

No one benefits from harsh, poorly thought out critiques. Kind, but honest critiques are hard enough to swallow:lol: :lol:. Some are willing to wade through harsh critiques for the gems that may help them. Others can't and take every word as a dagger to the heart.

Mental toughness is essential in this very public sport. You can't improve without practice and critique....and progress is so slow...and everyone watches...and so many are unking because it makes them feel, what, superior??? or better about their own glaring faults????or they already know your struggle and forget what its like???

The best riders are torn apart...the rest of us expect what:confused: ...???

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 8, 2007, 08:18 AM
It's so much easier to take a harsh critique when you know the person who's critique-ing has competed in the Olympics or at a super elite level. Odd thing is, I find that people who have competed WAY UP THERE are the kindest in their accessment of a rider's skill.

Often I think people who critique harshly want to give the impression that at one time they were someone.

Too often critiques have that nasty New York Times film/restaurant/theater/etc review style, where the reviewer is writing the review for the sake of entertainment.

Shiaway, you are a brave person for having posted on youtube. All of these small things are going to help you just like all your troubles in Japan have made you a better person.

PRE, are you associated with the magnificent Lusitanos and Andalusians?

Dressage Art
Jan. 8, 2007, 11:54 AM
It's both. It's the directness of Europeans and softness of Americans.

I have a video on Google (not Youtube) of my walk pirouette. Somebody from England gave me 1 star out of 5 for it with a pointless comment of "steps with in the required range". Well, out of a dozen dressage shows that I went last year, I've mostly got 8 on my walking pirouettes. They are my pride and joy; I thought them to my horse myself. So giving 1 star out of 5 stars for the pirouette that was scoring mostly an 8 on a dozen competitions is either rude or shows a complete lack of dressage knowledge. No, I didn't remove my video or her comments, I think that this critic ridiculed herself and people who understand dressage will see that.

That said, Theo, I lived in Eastern Europe, where people are just plain rude, I lived in Europe, where people are direct. Now for the last 17 years I live in US, where people always dance around the bush and sugarcoat it. Being direct and telling like it is, going directly to the point is considered to be rude. If I'll talk the way I talked in Estonia, Americans will have a heart attack.

I love to teach art and years ago some of my privet students cried from the comments that I gave them. My thought was that I want to spare their time, get to the point and deliver the most amount of the useful advice that I can in the short hour that I have with them, so they can get their money worth. From my personal painful experience I know what kind of art will fail and I wanted to protect my students from that.

Theo, it just doesn't work.

One of the highlights of my career was to be a lead artist on the "Lord of the Rings". Some of my students have the same ambitions, but they can't take the heat of the kitchen. I didn't get there by walking on a paved road; my road was very rocky and full of bumps and broses. But for most of my students it's not worth taking a verbal "beating" critique to get there. It's mostly all Hollywood to them.

Now, I deliver 1/10 of the same information during the same teaching hour to my students. I sugarcoated it, I dance around the bush, and I repeat myself at least 3 times with a big smile on my face.

Do they learn as fast as I can teach them? No.
Are they happy with my verbal critique delivery? Yeas.

The bottom line, there are amateurs, who do this for FUN and even critiques should be fun for them. There are pro's that will put their bullet proof vests on and take critiques as a "man". You probably bumped to US amateur who compare to her barn mates has a great seat. Big fish in the small pound, that would like to stay a queen of her barn.

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 8, 2007, 11:55 AM
This post raises a pressing question. Why would anyone ever want to catch flies anyway? Vinegar or honey, who cares. That's a ridiculous saying because no one wants to catch flies. Kill flies, yes.

I have a lot of thoughts about the other issues. People all learn differently, and all have unique learning styles. So, the harsh criticism that advances one rider might send the next rider scurrying to take up knitting. It's a poor teacher who always uses one method, harsh or otherwise, for all students.

I suspect the educational systems in American and Europe are quite different, and many of our differences in how we think people ought to learn are embedded in our personal cultural experiences.

Dressage Art
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:02 PM
I suspect the educational systems in American and Europe are quite different, and many of our differences in how we think people ought to learn are embedded in our personal cultural experiences.

From my personal experience americans have a lot of "fluff" in conversations. It is a part of the American culture and Americans don't even notice it. Some other cultures consider it "fake" and rude. To each their own.

Velvet
Jan. 8, 2007, 12:47 PM
Again, we need to watch generalizations. I lived in NY for a while and that's one place where being very direct and saying exactly what you think is NOT considered bad mannered, rude, etc. It's just speaking plainly and is expected, and desired more than sugar coating. :lol:

(Welcome to the melting pot. :D )

Karoline
Jan. 8, 2007, 02:00 PM
True its a big country and communication style can differ widely based on regionality. However, I have heard this statement " you cannot judge xyz unless you have walked a mile in that person's shoes" more here then anywhere else I have lived. There is a reluctance in America to pass judgment and critic at the individual level but as a group media lynching are very popular yet, and on the other side, a great willingness/imperative to forgive, that can go overboard. America likes it when a popular figure falls from grace, makes amends and is welcome back into the fold, repentent. Amends usually seem to include public apologies and stints in rehab. Forgiveness is a very strong theme here.
I dont know if its the influence of religion in popular culture, or the influence of pop psychology. I do know that as a new american, I have had to adapt my communication style because it was to blunt. In the end, wether you sugar coat or not, when you have to deliver a criticism or fire someone, the message still hits home -what is interresting is how the recipient can repackage the experience to safeguard their self-esteem -another very important concept in America.

Horsedances
Jan. 8, 2007, 02:12 PM
Boy this has become another snarkfest- mostly of those who have one or the other axe to grind...I think Theo made a good point and it is best understood maybe by those that have both cultures...things are definitely different over there and if you have ever ridden in Holland or Germany you will know and understand what he meant. It might have come off a little bit like ' let me remind you of your big chip on your shoulder' but I think that was not his intention- more like ' wow- you guys are different and do things very different over there'.

And yes Velvet- you might be right- although I do believe that core roots of the british victorian conduct are still very prevalent in this country. I also think that one major thing that Theo can NOT even understand in a million years- is the terrible lack of qualified experienced dressage trainers in this country and the incredible amount of good choices he could make if he searched for a dressage trainer in his country...not that he needs one..--OMG- there is just no comparison- and add to that size of the country and miles to travel in order to get to someone that actually can help....not in a million years is there a comparison...and I would venture to say- Theo doesn't know that....hey Theo- when have you last travelled the US??? and if so where were you??? Let's all invite him for a quick info-tour!!

Last month (like every two months) I had some ex-Olympics riders from the USA over here. And Yes a part of the problem is "lack of qualified experienced dressage trainers" , but the problem is much more complicated. It's called liability, insurance and tons of paperwork before you can start with a student. Most noted trainers in the USA don't want to walk this road, so they only take a few students and hope and pray.

I have received many invitations to come to the USA, and when I can stop smoking and my clients let me of the hook for some weeks, I will be in Ocala next month to celebrate something I am not entitled to talk about.

But again: when the video's on YOURTUBE are an average of what is happening in the USA I think KB and his disciples has a lot of work to do.
When I see 3thd level rides where horses don't offer any collection, and when I see that when the riders ask for more collection the ears of the horse go backwards and the horse starts protesting there is something wrong.

Theo

mygenie
Jan. 8, 2007, 02:22 PM
What would you think if I came onto a Dutch bb and posted something like: "you stupid Dutch people, you don't know how to ride and you always yell at your students."


Shiaway- This made me laugh, because, growing up and learning to ride in the NL, (at a riding school/manege) I remember a LOT of (looking back-unneccesary) yelling! Sometimes I dreaded going to lessons. I was not neccesarily the one being yelled at, but looking back I just remember being so intimidated. ;)

mygenie
Jan. 8, 2007, 02:36 PM
But again: when the video's on YOURTUBE are an average of what is happening in the USA I think KB and his disciples has a lot of work to do.
When I see 3thd level rides where horses don't offer any collection, and when I see that when the riders ask for more collection the ears of the horse go backwards and the horse starts protesting there is something wrong.

Theo

Theo, you have got to know that this is not the case, the videos there are a few people who post and are NOT a representative of what Dressage in the US is all about.

As far as the communication issues (because that is what it comes down to), I think with an increasingly growing International community the phrase: "Treat others the way you would want to be treated" is out, and we need to think about empathizing a little bit more with a person when we communicate with them (like putting ourselves in their shoes), not only if they are from another culture, but in general. It is not that difficult, and it allows for some great conversation.

sm
Jan. 8, 2007, 05:06 PM
I don't understand why this has morphed to a cultural issue:

If you're "aware" other cultures will find you abrasive, then at what point is it your responsibility to temper your comments so you are not offensive on purpose? Why not take ownership for the youtube comments, why the Cultural Blame Game and blame someone's culture instead?

Better yet, why not post responses on youtube in dutch or whatever language you prefer -- like some responses are posted here -- then those who read it can understand the cultural nuances. Again, it's about taking ownership for your comments and not blaming someone else.

America is made up of many cultures in all walks of life, I find it hard to buy this is a cultural issue, in dressage of all things. America is quite open to Dutch and German cultures in dressage, this is not as foriegn as some would like to believe.

Shiaway
Jan. 8, 2007, 05:18 PM
<Shiaway, you are a brave person for having posted on youtube. All of these small things are going to help you just like all your troubles in Japan have made you a better person.>

Hee hee. I was joking. I have never posted videos on youtube.

I have posted a video on google video but I made it private so you can't find it unless I post a link. Of course maybe google's webcrawler has found the link I posted somewhere else.... That's always a possibility. But generally I don't like to post photos/videos for total strangers to see.

Now UDBB and Coth, while you guys are "technically" strangers, it doesn't feel so much for me. So if you want to see my short little google video to tell me how much I suck, you're more than welcome. Except it's a waste of breath since I already know I'm a sucky, training level rider.


The two dressage trainers I have had (I don't tend to migrate trainers very much) have been non-american. Neither are all sugar when they teach you. Some people can't handle it. But there are lots of us who can. In fact I would say my previous trainer has many more clients than my current trainer, not because s/he was any better but because s/he had an accent and charisma.

I have heard this mentality a lot about teachers. I think it's rather funny. Somehow it's like saying that if you don't yell and scream at your student than you're not achieving anything?

So I'm also assuming from this statement that, Europeans won't do what they are told to do unless you scream and yell at them??

It's the same thing when I tell people that in my college I didn't get grades (we got written evaluations). I think many people would look at me like I had two heads and assume I had a crappy education.

But then again, I don't need grades to make me do the work. I have always understood that my education is only what I put into it. My trainer could tell me in the nicest way to put my right shoulder back or she could scream at me to put my #@$%$^! shoulder back. She'd get the same result from me. Maybe Theo needs to be screamed at to do something, but you only need to ask me and I will do it to the best of my ability. It's my lesson and I get what I put in. I don't need someone yelling at me to motivate me.

Now as far as telling it like it is. I'd be pretty annoyed if my trainer didn't tell me what they saw. I'm paying a lot of money for a lesson. I don't want pretty words. And I really haven't had issue with that in my instruction. My trainer is excellent at seeing what is there and telling you. She can tell if your outside toe is sticking out even if she cannot see your outside toe.

But anyway, my original post had nothing to do with this. I posted it because this is one of many posts Theo has written where he cannot seem to get away from the us:them subject.

People who post their videos on youtube are most likely people who ride in their backyard and are having some fun. Do you think that Micheal Poulin is spending time posting videos of his last ride on youtube? So how can youtube be an adequite representation of riding in the US?

I know that riding in Europe is generally of a higher standard than the US. But really, what a snotty thing to go around and flaunt it? It wouldn't be very nice of me to go onto a dutch bb and flaunt that Americans have cheaper gas and taxes...

zinnniaz
Jan. 8, 2007, 05:22 PM
What she said AGAIN! And I didn't find that at all sugar coated or fluffy, Shiaway. Hmmmm, maybe it's not CULTURAL? Maybe it is just good or bad communication!

Dalfan
Jan. 8, 2007, 05:22 PM
So ONE (or a few) didn't like the critique of their riding vids. Big deal. Doesn't give you the license to paint ALL with such a big brush. Get over it!

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 8, 2007, 06:09 PM
Theo, you said a very interesting thing in the Alcoholism thread, you said that 70% of the top Dutch riders were alcoholics. I asked you if you thought they started off as alcoholics of if they became alcoholics after they got to top rider status, you said you thought they became alcoholics along the way. Could it be that these top riders become alcoholics because of all the harsh alienating critism they receive on the way up? Anyway, would most people rather be top riders who are alcoholic or mediocre riders who drink socially? I don't know, but the alcohol problem that you addressed is proof that no system is perfect, I really don't think 70% of the top American riders are alcoholic, but who knows.

Shiaway
Jan. 8, 2007, 07:35 PM
No, they're crack addicts. mwa ha ha

dutchmike
Jan. 8, 2007, 08:24 PM
Cultural my butt I'm dutch and have no need to make myself look better by insulting or making fun of films that are roaming around on the internet. Ofcourse there are many instructors that need to insult when they teach however the ones that actually teach you something are mostly modest in their comments and do not need to make their pupils feel 2 inches tall

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 08:54 PM
Cultural my butt I'm dutch and have no need to make myself look better by insulting or making fun of films that are roaming around on the internet. Ofcourse there are many instructors that need to insult when they teach however the ones that actually teach you something are mostly modest in their comments and do not need to make their pupils feel 2 inches tall

You are right. You can be in a room full of people, but when soemone has something of value to say and is respected by other people, they only need to whisper, everyone else is going to get quiet and listen. In the other hand when someone is a thug trying to impose it's way of thinking and finds himself in that same room, that person needs to scream and curse in order to get peoples attention.

dutchmike
Jan. 8, 2007, 08:58 PM
You are right. You can be in a room full of people, but when soemone has something of value to say and is respected by other people, they only need to whisper, everyone else is going to get quiet and listen. In the other hand when someone is a thug trying to impose it's way of thinking and finds himself in that same room, that person needs to scream and curse in order to get peoples attention.

And we have plenty of those in the netherlands especially the ones that receive unemployment money from the government:D

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 09:03 PM
And we have plenty of those in the netherlands especially the ones that receive unemployment money from the government:D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

fish
Jan. 8, 2007, 09:47 PM
I have the impression from my well-travelled daughter (I've never been outside of North America) that there are definite cultural differences. She said that when she first went shopping for clothes in Europe, she was shocked by the honesty of the sales people, for example, but fairly quickly learned to appreciate it. Trying on a dress, she once asked the opinion of the salesperson who said, "That dress makes you look too fat. It would look much better on your friend." My daughter was initially offended, but then realized how much happier she would be in the long run not to be sold an unflattering dress, and how much easier shopping wisely could be if salespeople could be trusted to be honest.

Horsedances
Jan. 8, 2007, 10:15 PM
Theo, you said a very interesting thing in the Alcoholism thread, you said that 70% of the top Dutch riders were alcoholics. I asked you if you thought they started off as alcoholics of if they became alcoholics after they got to top rider status, you said you thought they became alcoholics along the way. Could it be that these top riders become alcoholics because of all the harsh alienating critism they receive on the way up? Anyway, would most people rather be top riders who are alcoholic or mediocre riders who drink socially? I don't know, but the alcohol problem that you addressed is proof that no system is perfect, I really don't think 70% of the top American riders are alcoholic, but who knows.

We just had an endless discussion about Leslie Morse and how stories get twisted and start their own live. This is the biggest example: I never said that 70% of the top Dutch riders were alcoholics. and also the rest of your story is b*llsh*t.

Theo

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 10:54 PM
and also the rest of your story is b*llsh*t.

Theo

that is a really smart and educated way of making your argument, did you learn that from one your Trainer Friends?

canyonoak
Jan. 8, 2007, 11:12 PM
<< People have to be aware that if they atack people without first hand knowledge that what you are saying is true, you might be causing serious damage to a person that has done nothing to you. I have seen case of people, under the shadow of anonimity, trying to spread very damaging rumors about other people. We have to be careful of not letting ourselves being carried in to something like that. Today you might think is not a big deal, is freedom of speach, etc. tomorrow you might be the victim of an anonymous attacj and you will se everything in a different way.>>

P.R.E., that is YOUR comment from the thread that just began discussing the need for us all to be adults and use the forums for information, not gossip, etc.

Please -- follow your own advice. It's GOOD advice!

LOL

P.R.E.
Jan. 8, 2007, 11:18 PM
<< People have to be aware that if they atack people without first hand knowledge that what you are saying is true, you might be causing serious damage to a person that has done nothing to you. I have seen case of people, under the shadow of anonimity, trying to spread very damaging rumors about other people. We have to be careful of not letting ourselves being carried in to something like that. Today you might think is not a big deal, is freedom of speach, etc. tomorrow you might be the victim of an anonymous attacj and you will se everything in a different way.>>

P.R.E., that is YOUR comment from the thread that just began discussing the need for us all to be adults and use the forums for information, not gossip, etc.

Please -- follow your own advice. It's GOOD advice!

LOL


Please tell me who I am attacking? What gossip I am starting? That I make a comment regarding the lack of education that someone displays in the Board, doesn't mean that I am starting a gossip. His comments talk for himself.

Dalfan
Jan. 8, 2007, 11:22 PM
Gossip is talking BEHIND someones back. I think she said it TO you. Not gossip.

Coreene
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:41 AM
that is a really smart and educated way of making your argument, did you learn that from one your Trainer Friends?Oh please. You already insulted all the Dutch people on this BB with your swipe about speaking German. Pot? Kettle.

P.R.E.
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:51 AM
Oh please. You already insulted all the Dutch people on this BB with your swipe about speaking German. Pot? Kettle.

I was answering to an un-called display of offenses, with a very sarcastic comment, a little over the top, but still sarcasm. the difference is that, I apologized, he didn't and you, you only mention what I said but not what the other person said regarding the Americans. If you are going to play judge, play a fair judge..

Coreene
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:00 AM
I only commented on what you said in your rude comment about how Dutch would be German speaking because that is the only thing that offended. I am not here to play Kumbaya and make sure that I comment on each thing that someone says. No one else said anything which offended me, but it is comments like yours re German speaking that make my blood boil.

Thank goodness for the "ignore list." I need to update it immediately.

sm
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:03 AM
"...I am not here to play Kumbaya..."

German, Dutch, Swahili -- who cares: How about we all grab a can of Coca-Cola and sing that old song on the coke commercials, "I'd love to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony..."

Well, maybe that is too much a cultural reference for some here. Choklit, anyone?

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 11:56 AM
But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered.

Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out). :confused:

And in some videos I noticed that when the rider ask for collection the horse turns his ears to the back and get nasty.

Theo

sm
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:09 PM
theo, that looks like an interesting new thread subject to me. I don't know if you'll get the best answers buried under this thread title.

Here's something AOL has on it's front page: others getting along. It's a funny video, I hope it plays:
http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?pmmsid=1808027

Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:09 PM
Can you posts links to these videos so we can possibly help you understand?

I have noticed a diference as well. When I saw the footage of the Dutch Championships, all I saw were horses so shortened in the neck, chest-biting bend and extremely restricted. You wouldn't have any insight on this style of riding would you? Since we are generalizing here.:)

Reynard Ridge
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:11 PM
But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered. Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out). :confused:

Maybe all the Americans who can really ride are out doing just that instead of posting their videos to Youtube?

Mozart
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:26 PM
Maybe all the Americans who can really ride are out doing just that instead of posting their videos to Youtube?


Best reply so far :yes:

zinnniaz
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:31 PM
Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out). :confused:


Oh for God's sake. Since you need straight talk and no sugar coating here it is:

You are making uninformed assumptions based on a small sampling.
That is ignorant.

kkj
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:46 PM
But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered.

Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out). :confused:

And in some videos I noticed that when the rider ask for collection the horse turns his ears to the back and get nasty.

Theo

Well Theo, I will take a stab at answering it. You don't have hunters in Holland right? Little kids learn dressage basics and not from a HJ trainer. Here a lot of the dressage riders are converts from the hunter world. There they ride on a long rein, more strung out and on the forehand. A lot of lower level trainers who dabble in dressage and riders who came over from the hunter world never fully make the transition into what you would call proper dressage. The hunter world is a very big market in the US with big $$$ spent on horses, showing, training etc.

In addition, I think there is a little truth in the comments that the good riders are not posting all over Youtube. We do have some very good dressage riding in the US too believe it or not. The winning rides in my region are not the long rein strung out ones you are describing. We also have a fair amount of the other extreme in the US too- people who always ride behind the vertical, never getting their horse to really use its back and stretch. We even have those who practice Rolkur.

I don't think the good dressage riders here are that much different than the good ones in Holland.

dutchmike
Jan. 9, 2007, 12:58 PM
I don't understand why people are even trying to answer the question, obviously this person only wants to create trouble and is a disgrace to the netherlands. Most dutch people are open minded ,honest but fair which Theo lacks reading his comments

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:02 PM
Well Theo, I will take a stab at answering it. You don't have hunters in Holland right? Little kids learn dressage basics and not from a HJ trainer. Here a lot of the dressage riders are converts from the hunter world. There they ride on a long rein, more strung out and on the forehand. A lot of lower level trainers who dabble in dressage and riders who came over from the hunter world never fully make the transition into what you would call proper dressage. The hunter world is a very big market in the US with big $$$ spent on horses, showing, training etc.

In addition, I think there is a little truth in the comments that the good riders are not posting all over Youtube. We do have some very good dressage riding in the US too believe it or not. The winning rides in my region are not the long rein strung out ones you are describing. We also have a fair amount of the other extreme in the US too- people who always ride behind the vertical, never getting their horse to really use its back and stretch. We even have those who practice Rolkur.

I don't think the good dressage riders here are that much different than the good ones in Holland.

Finally an answer we can build a further discussion upon. And Yes I know that manyyyyyyy riders in the USA know how to ride their horses in a dressage-frame.

Thanks KKJ, because this is exactly what I ment to start a discussion about.

Theo

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:09 PM
I don't understand why people are even trying to answer the question, obviously this person only wants to create trouble and is a disgrace to the netherlands. Most dutch people are open minded ,honest but fair which Theo lacks reading his comments

Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

Theo

zinnniaz
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:11 PM
Theo, if you wanted to start a discussion about "why americans ride in a long frame", perhaps you should not have started it with a discussion about youtube videos and riders not welcoming harsh criticism. I don't know exactly why, but this thread has annoyed me greatly.

You start by making disparaging comments about some riders on youtube, then talk about how you graciously 'critiqued' them and they didn't like it-- THEN it becomes a discussion about how americans as a culture are too effusive and sugar coat everything and don't tell it like it is (bullsnit, by the way) and then you decide that it's ACTUALLY a discussion about why oh why is american riding so dismally lacking in collection? What could be wrong in america that the riders are shlepping around on long reins and riding so abysmally?

Here's my sugar coated response:
Perhaps you should look at more riders before making such broad generalisations. You might not realize it, but you are speaking quite rudely. I am sure you didn't intend that, so maybe next time, you should temper your words and quit making such broad generalisations.

Here's my straight talking response:
Cut the crap. You are behaving like an antiamerican bigot and it is quite ugly. Treat your fellow humans with respect.

zinnniaz
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:12 PM
Theo, do you even ride? Howsabout some videos of THAT?

dutchmike
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:32 PM
Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

Theo

It is not about becoming popular it is about being modest and not having kapsones. Where and with whom I have trained is not important in this topic nor do I feel the need to boast to be quite honest. The fact is that some people need to belittle others because of their own insecurities. I have been just about all over the planet and have met a few noboddies like you every where that are quick on the draw critising without being constructive. Like the dutch say "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" and obviously you fall into that categorie

kkj
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:37 PM
I think that all the people who are getting their panties in a twist by the criticisms of riding in the US and American's inability to handle criticism, are lending further credence to the assertion that people in US can't handle the truth and expect a sugar-coated praise of their riding.

If I am paying you (clinic, lesson, judge whatever), give me your honest opinion. I don't want someone to stroke my ego and lift me up to think I am better than I am. I want something I can take and work on. If you post yourself on Youtube, your bad, you better be ready to take the opinion of whoever feels compelled to comment.

zinnniaz
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:39 PM
pshaw. I take criticism of MY riding and learn from it. I don't take generalized criticism of every rider in my danged country. That's just stupid. There is definitely an odd bias to the posts.

zinnniaz
Jan. 9, 2007, 01:43 PM
Wanted to add that it does not lend credence to that idea. Bullies the world over use that argument:


Bully: You are so thinskinned! You can't take simple criticism. Your riding sucks and horses everywhere would breathe a sigh of relief if you quit.

Person: I am not, that is not true and is mean spirited.

Bully: See?! You ARE thinskinned!

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:07 PM
It is not about becoming popular it is about being modest and not having kapsones. Where and with whom I have trained is not important in this topic nor do I feel the need to boast to be quite honest. The fact is that some people need to belittle others because of their own insecurities. I have been just about all over the planet and have met a few noboddies like you every where that are quick on the draw critising without being constructive. Like the dutch say "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" and obviously you fall into that categorie

How far can you come with a trainer who is modest. The US-riders all went to Germany or The Netherlands to train with the big names, and do you really believe these trainers were/are modest. Wake up.

Because I made the music for Kathleen Raine for the Sydney Olympics I watched several trainingsessions of her with Johan Hinneman. Johan is one of the most easy going trainers and a perfect gentleman but I heard several (what you call) harsh remarks.

Furthermore you can put me in any category you want, but the beauty of this board is the "ignore button" . Please tell us something about your credentials and/or backgrounds and maybee I will take your opinion in consideration.

Theo

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:21 PM
How is anyone supposed to get the idea that this is a thread about collection when the title is Are you always that friendly ??

Because when somebody post a ride where the horse is 90% of in a wrong (zomebody called it a hunter) frame and not a dressage frame and I only read comments like woooow, beautifull etc....and the ones who think, this the worst ride I ever saw stay within the silent majority I wonder what the goal is for such postings.

So my goal had a double purpose: why is nobody telling the truth, while these posters ask for critique, and why are so many horses riding in a wrong frame. Go to the FEI website and see what the ulimate goal of dressage-riding is ?

Theo

P.R.E.
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:32 PM
Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

Theo


They have used much harder words to describe what they found in the US? What is thta supposed to mean, because some Dutch trainer doesn't like what they found here, everyone has to do change what they are doing, because the "correct way" is the way of your friends?

Why you get so offensive with Mike? because he disagrees with your statement? is that your idea of a discussion?

At least you can make a comment about the American style of riding, because Americans are not ashamed of how they ride, so you can actually see there pictures and videos and start your nasty topics. We can't say the same of some of your friends, that go around threatening with lawyers if someone dares to show a picture or a video of how they train!!

Let's make the 2 million dollar question, why when you attend a horse show in Holland, we see more and more riders getting their horses round pulling on a double briddle while they stand and push in the stirrups? Or these is a subject that can't be discussed. (Note. I ma not talking about good round and deep riding, I am tallking about that super style of pull and push and don't take pictures of me while I do it!!)

dutchmike
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:34 PM
:confused:
How far can you come with a trainer who is modest. The US-riders all went to Germany or The Netherlands to train with the big names, and do you really believe these trainers were/are modest. Wake up.

Because I made the music for Kathleen Raine for the Sydney Olympics I watched several trainingsessions of her with Johan Hinneman. Johan is one of the most easy going trainers and a perfect gentleman but I heard several (what you call) harsh remarks.

Furthermore you can put me in any category you want, but the beauty of this board is the "ignore button" . Please tell us something about your credentials and/or backgrounds and maybee I will take your opinion in consideration.

Theo

Big trainers mostly are modest yes. Some of my credentials etc are available on the net all you have to do is look. You are changing giving remarks on the net and generalising to giving remarks when teaching face to face 2 totally different things.

P.R.E.
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:36 PM
The fact is that some people need to belittle others because of their own insecurities. I have been just about all over the planet and have met a few noboddies like you every where that are quick on the draw critising without being constructive. Like the dutch say "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" and obviously you fall into that categorie


:D :D :D :D :D

P.R.E.
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:41 PM
So my goal had a double purpose: why is nobody telling the truth, while these posters ask for critique, and why are so many horses riding in a wrong frame. Go to the FEI website and see what the ulimate goal of dressage-riding is ?

Theo


Why some Dutch riders don;t want the truth to be told about how they ride?

But you are right about something... the ignore button....you are a no one and there goes my ignore button..

Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:47 PM
Go to the FEI website and see what the ulimate goal of dressage-riding is ?

Do you REALLY want to go there, considering what YOUR top riders are doing to follow the directives of the FEI?

Dalfan
Jan. 9, 2007, 02:51 PM
The very premise of Theo's question is ridiculous.

Gee, saw a youtube vid, critiqued it, rider didn't like critisism...conclusion = American riders just don't know how to ride in a dressage "frame". Wow. What a leap:eek:

Mozart
Jan. 9, 2007, 04:40 PM
I checked your profile and man, are you ever cute!

You don't look that thrilled to be on a horse while wearing a skirt though....;)

YoungFilly
Jan. 9, 2007, 04:58 PM
Funny Motzart, thats what I thought too, Gee DutchMike sure is cute for a little girl! :lol:

egontoast
Jan. 9, 2007, 05:34 PM
Horsedances, I know you'll agree that it's so easy to criticize when you are on the sidelines (NOT RIDING). When you hang around with trainers and judges, you may fall into this trap. It's called talking the walk.

MyReality
Jan. 9, 2007, 06:37 PM
I think Theo made some interesting observation. I have seen more North American riders not riding in collection at levels that requires collection, than other European countries. I think somebody already made a great point about a lot of people in this side of the world come from hunter.

I want to say also is, many horses we ride today, are not bred properly for dressage, and they find it very difficult to collect. Our breeding and devlopment program for dressage horses is still growing and very limited right now. We ride whatever we could, (or the rich people go to Europe to buy horses) and some of the horses have various interesting background (hunter, reiner, jumper... when the horse doesn't fair well in something, let's put him in dressage). Go figure.

In NA dressage, at the local level, many people are stuck at the rock bottom level. You have very little competition pass level 1, and you know everyone in the class, hence you can get away with not doing things properly and still get a ribon. But like I say, we do what we can, and when time/money permits, some of us fly to Europe. This is not to say we don't have good riders/horses. We do, absolutely! But it's about access for the average AA.

Now, not to say all Dutch ride their horses in classical collected form, even at GP level. But that's not the point here, right? :D

I don't believe we need to be polite in critiques. It's called critique. It's criticisng... not agreeing with each other. It's a very bad habit of this board, people blindly say nice things to each other... doesn't do a thing in my opinion. (What drives me crazy was those 'is my horse suitable for dressage' threads... why ask if you think any horse can do dressage? Gees, there are how many more tests after training, you tell me!) Anyways, the first step to correction is awareness. Correction itself is a great reward, a triumph... if you do things right all the time the first time, what's so fun?

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 06:46 PM
Horsedances, I know you'll agree that it's so easy to criticize when you are on the sidelines (NOT RIDING). When you hang around with trainers and judges, you may fall into this trap. It's called talking the walk.

NOT RIDING ANYMORE, like many judges and many trainers today.

But when you watch dressage 18 hours a day you can judge what you see.

And MyReality where were you all that time ;) , because you pointed out very clearly what my observations were.

Theo

sm
Jan. 9, 2007, 06:52 PM
MyReality's post 130 begs the question: how expensive was the horse on the youtube video?

The youtube video: were there international competitors in the same test, or are we talking a regional show somewhere in the middle of no where with a backyard type of horse? Because if you're talking hunters, their necks are built horizontally long off the withers, they are not built vertical like dressage horses. Giving a different type of collection to be sure.

Are we comparing rides with dressage-bred horses valued at $250,000 and upwards here -- or not?

Hazelnut
Jan. 9, 2007, 07:48 PM
[quote=MyReality;2128707]
I don't believe we need to be polite in critiques. It's called critique. It's criticisng... not agreeing with each other. quote]

It is alway best to be polite. Constructive critisism can be to the point, but delievered with respect.

Critique and disagreement are not the same things.

A well stated critique should let a rider know where they are on the right track and what basics are solid and what they must do to improve and where there are holes in the basics.

Shiaway
Jan. 9, 2007, 07:52 PM
Actually I just remembered something that I should have posted instead of all my other posts.

Theo,
Do you remember the very first time you posted one of your videos here on COTH?

I remember, that someone made some small remark (which was more joking than critisim) and you immediatly took your video off the forum.

So maybe you've spent a little too much time around us Americans????

Horsedances
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:01 PM
Actually I just remembered something that I should have posted instead of all my other posts.

Theo,
Do you remember the very first time you posted one of your videos here on COTH?

I remember, that someone made some small remark (which was more joking than critisim) and you immediatly took your video off the forum.

So maybe you've spent a little too much time around us Americans????

Yes.... because these were Videos from riders who couldn't defend themself, and didn't post the video's themselfs, and didn't ask critique from green grass-riders, but only from the judges.
But I stop posting about this subject because I really can handle so much stupidity <period>

Theo

Karoline
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:04 PM
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal: The best steersmen are ashore

HardHeadedHanna
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:17 PM
Theo, you're losing prospective customers when you lash out at people in public forums.

indyblue
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:26 PM
Theo.I thankyou all the time for the fabulous videos you post for us but I must admit that Im with HardHeadedHannah on this one.I wonder if some of your european customers (youve used some of their names in this discussion) would want you associating them with this argument.Id be keeping my buisness and my own personal opinions very seperate.

dutchmike
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:30 PM
I checked your profile and man, are you ever cute!

You don't look that thrilled to be on a horse while wearing a skirt though....;)

that is my little daughter :)

P.R.E.
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:31 PM
But I stop posting about this subject because I really can handle so much stupidity <period>

Theo

The stupidity argument! famously used by dictators, mob bosses and thugs to make reference to people who doesn't agree with them.....

Shiaway
Jan. 9, 2007, 08:45 PM
Theo,
I want to appologize. My last post was pretty rude. Seriously, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or come off so rude. I'm rather young and I can let my mouth get the better of me sometimes.

I also have an old chip on my shoulder because I went to a boarding high school (actually it's a school that comes from a german philosopher) and we had a lot of european students who loved to just rag on the US and our schooling system and claim how much better theirs was (which begs the question--why come to school in the US if it's not as good as your homeland's?). But so this is just an attitude I've been exposed to for a while and so I am a bit extra-sentive to it.

I probably should have just left this thread alone. I have appreciated your videos so I hope my attitude hasn't jepordized your generosity with them.

Hazelnut
Jan. 9, 2007, 09:20 PM
Theo,
I want to appologize.

That was a nice thing to do.

kkj
Jan. 10, 2007, 08:44 AM
My Reality, I agree with most everything you say, except that there are a lot of quality dressage horses now being bred in the US. My horse is US bred and nicer than most of the horses people import. There are several breeders in the US now breeding very nice high quality dressage horses.

Also I agree with Theo on a lot of this. There are a lot of people in the US that do ride dressage like they are riding hunters. I have seen a lot of third level tests that are very strung out and not too pretty. I have also seen a lot of fantastic US riders both amateur and professional.

Also agree that as a country we are a lot more thin skinned and soft than the average citizen from many other places. We are the "fat" Americans. We live in a Politically Correct, No Child Left Behind world. Also we live in a society that believes you can buy most anything and who suffer from the need of instant gratification. There are plenty of us who will put in whatever time and effort is necessary to get us there and plenty more who are lazy, thin-skinned, and don't have the best work ethic. There are a lot of Americans who will cry if you tell them the truth. No one ever tells them the truth. No not all Americans are like that but I would assert we have more people like that here than in Holland or Germany.

Tamara in TN
Jan. 10, 2007, 09:02 AM
The problem is not a matter of Victorian roots in this country (that's more British than American), it's a matter of the current turn to political correctness. ...

or more basically,more people in the USA think horses are their friends,lovers,family members...so in saying ANYTHING in the least bit not kissy kissy you are "attacking a family member" or dishonoring some intimate bond...:no: :no:

when people do not think their rides are deep intimate. extentions of their innner child, then they take "hey,maybe you need to work on whoa a little more before you go to sliding stops" a little better....

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN
Jan. 10, 2007, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=MyReality;2128707]I think Theo made some interesting observation. I have seen more North American riders not riding in collection at levels that requires collection, than other European countries.[QUOTE]


(notes from an intentional dressage outsider :winkgrin: )

this (NA/USA) is a big place...here,dressage is marketed as "training for all"...well...bunches of our "natives" are'nt bred to go round like Warmbloods specalized for the sport...so one "makes due" or uses the ingredients that are available....and it prob looks all wrong to a EU trained eye....I know a welsh judge told me once that they were "gutted" to see the driving classes at a breed show here...no life, no fire, no emphasis on movement... it was just an obedience test :(

at the risk of annoying dressage folks I also see lots of "big fish in small ponds" who spread and teach "the word" and will have no idea who <X> european rider is or even what horses are winning <x> and where...

I know of one who takes 2 yos and "teaches them dressage" happily taking the money of the folks who would never lower themselves to a "cowboy" touching their two yo....:yes: but somehow dressage is better....?????

also the split in "dressage" when it's not just "training for everyone" becomes "classical" (we don't lower ourselves to compete :lol: ) to "sport" (we live to compete) and those folks don't exactly hang out either....in the attempt to spread dressage to everyone they the USA has made a competition/sport of the first year under saddle and called it "training" level...

Tamara in TN

sm
Jan. 11, 2007, 12:32 PM
there are also 54-plus breeds/registries competing in dressage in the US, and I have my earlier question not answered so I'll ask it again: are we comparing rides with dressage-bred horses of equal value? Or are we comparing apples and pears?

The way the horse is built (very vertical off the withers with lots of built-in capacity for uphill movement) is going to give a different level of collection than some breeds here in the US Dressage Federation program: http://www.usdf.org/Contacts/AllBreeds.asp

I remember the test was a third level test, so not out of the ability of many different breeds of horses. For instance, a quarter horse built horizontally, quite low off the wither/shoulder, and who started out in western trail can easily handle a third level test, but it will not collect like a $250,000 dressage bred horse. Nor does the owner necessarily want it to.

MyReality
Jan. 11, 2007, 02:20 PM
My understanding is this: there is such a thing as dressage bred horse collection <>(not equals to) non dressage bred horse collection. But there is no such a thing as bad collection due to breed limitation = (equals to) good collection.

I disagree all horses could do level 3. "Could" is a very liberal term. I think it is not necessary to lower the standards or level the playing field just because we want dressage to become more popular. We need to continue to develop rider, horses, techniques... and I don't believe this is done by putting your neighbourhood donkey in dressage, and patting each other's back.

This is not to say only Dutch WB could do it. And may I add again, not all FEI rider/horse combination out there are great examples. :D But the bottom line is, you need to recognise what you're doing. For instance, if your horse's gait is very earth bound, you absolutely need to build a higher quality trot first, before getting into collection.

It's not all about breeding. It's also about development as well. For instance, how many second level horse are in the market in your region? If you have a second level horse, what kind of price tag will you put on him/her? Note second is not even upper level.

Horsedances
Jan. 11, 2007, 03:33 PM
I never talked about good or bad collection. I talked about the fact that from level 2 and above judges, trainers, riders and rules (the FEI etc....) ask for collection. This is the major goal of dressage. In casu when you have a horse (or breed) that can't collect or the rider don't want to go through this process than you nail yourself and your horse to stay at the lower levels.

Theo

sm
Jan. 11, 2007, 04:42 PM
agreed, theo.

I just don't know if are we comparing rides with dressage-bred horses of equal value?

I unfortunately didn't see the video so I have no idea on the horse's overall frame. I can picture a horse not ridden through enough, which is definitely the rider's fault, but that was not the critism.

If the horse was reasonably supple and through but not driven into the bridle enough for portions of the test, again that would be the rider's fault, but that was not the critism. A horse can be "long" instead of vertical for may reasons, starting with the breed.

Then of course we start to run into the dreaded question, if it's the breed limitations: is dressage for all horses? Or is dressage a gaited test? The USDF encourages all breeds to participate at all levels, so that is where we are in America.

MyReality: I never wrote "all horses could do level 3," so I won't respond. I'll leave it to the person who wrote that.