Can someone explain this to me?

[Ember]

It seams unpleasant, dangerous and a little frightening to me. Mostly I find myself confused. The horse actually appeared to be unconsious. What did he do to it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Jhguiyz78

edited to add that I'm no longer confused. Found this guys other videos. Just wanted to add them to the first post so that people that are responding see all the info. I posted my own opinions farther on in the thread. That I find what he does disgusting is putting it mildly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZGWHnpi_Jg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHm7p5NiEs

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=endospink

[cgray0983]

WTF :confused:

[raff]

This looks like the vagal nerve is being affected by the bending of the neck.I've seen this before,also using a FM bit to turn the head and neck.Its just a guess,i'd be interested to know.

[Silence]

This guy has discovered a way to eliminate all basic and necisary groundwork by simply forceing the horse down on the ground. According to him..laying a horse down can solve all of your horse behavoir problems

Personally, I think the guys a damn idiot. :rolleyes:

[glitterless]

I could see this *maybe* working for leading.. but let's say the same horse rears under saddle. Would he ride the horse, wait for it to rear, jump off, and do the same thing? Or does this one episode somehow erase and rewrite the horse's memory? I remember the concept in the "Horse Whisperer," but I don't really see how it could fix any behaviour problem.

I agree that the horse looks somewhat unconscious..although.. his breathing seemed to be really quick when he was flat out on his side... you'd think it would slow down a lot if he was really unconscious.. he'd have to be awake and fully aware to realize that he lost the battle and willingly submit, right?

[sidepasser]

The horse wasn't physically harmed and I've seen a trainer use this method with horses that have NO respect for humans and it does seem to work once the horse gets the concept that the human is superior to the horse - and must not be toyed/played/or otherwise invaded upon.

There used to be a trainer here who only worked with some really tough older horses that were downright dangerous to be around. Some horses won't readily respond to anything other than to be shown they are not the "biggest" thing on the block. Given their past - this old trainer saved many that would have been put down (one I sent to him that was brought to me and I felt was a good horse underneath, but one had to get past the garbage on top). Horse ended up being a pleasant animal and reliable trail horse but had been allowed to "play" with his owners to the point of not being able to go in the stall without the rearing and striking out, and would not lead so the owners had resorted to sort of herding him everywhere through a series of chutes to get him in and out of his stall. The old trainer did the same thing as this one did in the video, put him in a soft ground round pen with a longe line on and dropped him over on his side. It took several sessions with much "pats and good boys" for the good behavior and prompt laying out flat for the bad behavior before the horse got the idea that he must behave. As the trainer said, let the old garbage out so new ideas can be taught. In other words, one has to get the horse receptive to relearning - or as my mom would say - gotta get his mind right. babying a horse or trying to retrain in a traditional manner as one would a youngster generally won't work with a horse that has learned dangerous habits.

A rearing, striking horse can kill a person and do it quickly too..one hoof on the wrong spot and the person is history. Personally I'd rather see the horse laid out flat on it's side a time or two than have a person be maimed for life or killed. Long as the horse isn't physically injured or abused - sometimes "deperate times call for desperate methods".

I prefer a horse be trained from the ground up as to what is acceptable and what is not. However that is not always the case and a lot of horses become unmanageable or so dangerous that one has a choice - put it down or give it a last chance to become a good citizen.

No this isn't for everybody and I'm sure that some of you who have only had good horse citizens can't imagine having to use a method like this. But there are horses in the world that have been damaged by improper handling, lack of knowledge, abuse, etc. that this method is the last chance to save the animal. If you notice, the horse wasn't just "thrown" to the ground, but was slowly made to lie down on it's side. He had boots on, and so forth and the trainer had a helmet on and so forth. Obviously the horse was none the worse for the experience having gotten up and repeatedly walked soundly back and forth - but doing so with all four hooves in their proper "space" on the ground so to speak.

[Fancy]

I agree with sidepasser. I have seen this done a couple of times by someone who REALLY knew what he was doing, and it seems almost like magic. It is the ultimate submission for a horse, and it does something to his mind. If done well, and in this video it seemed to be done VERY well, it can have a very positive effect on the horse. That said, it's not something that should be done except in extreme cases. The horses I saw were on their way to the kill pen if this intervention didn't work. One turned out well, and one didn't.

[cosmos mom]

I have no problem with people laying a horse down in the course of training (maybe take the saddle off first though?) the thing about this video is that the initial handler was leading the horse with the reins attached to the girth AND a running martingale attatched. With this kind of contraption attached to the horse, every time the handler asks the horse to come forward, his head gets yanked down, then he rears and carrys on. This is not the way to lead any horse. Heck, my horse can be handled by children, and yet he would probly misbehave if you tied him to himself and asked him to step into it. I wonder if they would have gotten such a dramatic effect if they had tried to lead the horse without the reins and martingale tied to him? Of course, they probably couldn't have used that footage in their video :rolleyes:.

[Chanter]

Hey remember the great fad the big time western trainers, & all the idiots immitating them, had of laying there horses down hog tied & then putting a tarp over them (can't see *think giant blind fold* induced further submission) & then leaving them like that for hours...in the baking sun! :no:

[Sannois]

do it, but he has a foot tied. I cant explain it, it never looks violent, the horse will willingly lay there after he is down and Dennis releases the rope.
Some dont want to get back up. This horse looked to not have been tied. OK So I have always wondered, is it just a submission dominance thing?? Does it have a place with a real problem horse?? does it work?? I have never known anyone peresonally to do it, but I can think of a few horses in my past that might have benefitted from it.:yes:

[Huntertwo]

Very interesting video. IMO I didn't see anything wrong or inhumane about it. Sort of like training a dog who wants to be the Alpha over its owner, I've read when the dog is agressive flip him over on his back (gently) with belly exposed. Sort of like Wolf behavior.

[Ember]

What exactly made the horse lie down? He looked like he passed out, is that the case?

I don't necessary condemn the guy, I just kind of get a bad taste from it. I certainly woldn't allow a horse, particularly a stud colt to behave that dangerously. My response would probably have included a chain and a dressage whip which would look ugly too. Of course I would address managment issues, ie; grain , turnout, etc... I don't know, I guess it really confuses me wich is why I posted it.

[murphyluv]

Not a horse trainer myself, so don't feel like I should comment on the laying down thing as I've never seen it done nor have I run into a horse that is THAT bad.
Anyways, I did however have a problem w/ them saying that it will fix stuff like refusing fences.. HELLOOO... sometimes behavioral problems result from PAIN! or maybe thehorse just doesn't like his job..maybe he'd like to be a trail horse!

[OakesBrae]

I would like an explanation of what he is doing. It looks very strange to me.

[MistyBlue]

That's the endorphin tap guy, isn't it? He has a site and has been on many BB's promoting the endorphin tap as a way to knock your horse out or something. It's not so much laying a horse down for training as it is making him black out I think. Something to do with pressing a certain spot on the horse to make it flop down...there's a "full tap" that lays it down and a Half Tap that's done with it still standing.
If you do a search on The Endorphin Tap you'll come up with a bunch of BB conversations the person who started this has been in with more info on it.
Here's the site on it...oddly enough the music on the site is Happy Days.
http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/index.html

[Nootka]

I have seen it done.. by some western riders. It does work in some ways and with some horses. Not all. Laying them down makes you the "boss" so to speak and takes the horse off its "high horse". It is a respect thing from what I have seen and heard.

I have also seen a person tie the legs like a calf for bull doggin. NASY NASY saw one horse get up and try to run only to run face first into a metal round pen. Needless to say the horse was gone in a few days. Owner must had found out.

I do not support the 2nd action in my post. FYI

[matryoshka]

I'd sure like to know how to lay a horse down without hurting it. I've got one now that could stand to have that done. She's a bit(!) of a maniac, and I don't know if it would help her behavior or not. I've put foals on the ground plenty of times and seen behavioral improvement.

[glitterless]

So how is he doing it? It doesn't look like he's actually forcing the horse down.. it's almost as though he cues the horse and the horse slowly lies down. When I've seen it done (on video), there is usually some obvious force required.. like turning the horse's head and forcing him to walk in such a tight circle that he comes down.

In theory, can I bridle my horse, turn his head tight to the left so that his nose is let's say, at his girth, continue applying pressure, and he'll go down?

I don't think I'll try this at home any time soon, but I'm just wondering how exactly it's done. It happened so easily and smoothly in the video. I can picture horses going over backwards, running backwards, refusing to go down, and so on.

[matryoshka]

He's not pulling the head around all the way to the girth. It looks like he's got a lot of flexion at the poll while turning the nose. I wonder if it impairs circulation to the brain or presses on a nerve or something. The horse looks like he is trying not to go down. If it impairs circulation to the brain or something, I wouldn't try it. If it's a nerve, then it would require quite a bit of practice.

I'd love to know how it is done! Did you notice all of the skeptical people with their arms crossed in the background? I bet they are wondering how long the "behavior adjustment" will last.

[Queen Latisha]

Vagal nerve stimulation decrease the horses blood pressure, causing the horse "pass out".

[canyonoak]

Total crap.
Total garbage.
Total Hi, Im a cowboy which in my world is the exact equivalent of a testosteroned psychopath with a big belt buckle coz SOMETHING on me has to be big.

blech.

[MistyBlue]

Yes, I agree with Queen Latisha that the horse is passing out rather than being layed down. The passing out part is very obvious in those videos...although I had no idea how he was getting the horse to pass out.

[matryoshka]

Vagal nerve stimulation decrease the horses blood pressure, causing the horse "pass out".

Definitely not something I'd try then. I'll stick to more conventional training methods (like clicker training :D ). Thanks for the info! It's so hard to evaluate these things based on a video designed to make the handler look like a magician. I figure the fancier the ad, the hokier the product. :yes:

[matryoshka]

Total Hi, Im a cowboy which in my world is the exact equivalent of a testosteroned psychopath with a big belt buckle coz SOMETHING on me has to be big.
I think that big belt-buckles are an attempt to compensate for something rather not big. :winkgrin: (I'll give you a hint: it's not the ego!) :cool:

[tbtrailrider]

Has anyone went to the site and looked at all his videos? I am fixin' to right now...:yes: will return with my take on it...
http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/Multimeadia.html

[Noctis]

odd. very odd.

[tbtrailrider]

OK, I am pretty sure he is starting out by "grabbing a shoulder hold" Grab a hunk of skin in the right spot and fold it over...horse will bend its neck like that and submit for many things, I have used it often on younguns and olduns. I also think he is tightening something in the girth area...not sure, but I have seen horses go down like that once or twice in my life wghen the girth was tightened. Some combo of the two maybe? I haven't watched all of them yet...some are rather silly. Oh, BTW I believe he's an Aussie, maybe some of our downunder COTHer's know of him?

[OakesBrae]

I think it's that neck thing that someone earlier in the thread was describing. Looks like the horse's circulation or something was compromised and trying not to pass out.

Honestly, I wasn't impressed with the technique. Particularly after the video on his myspace page of him doing it to a youngster for his first saddling. I didn't see a "calmer" youngster. He was galloping around the indoor track thing and bucking....now, he stuck the horse pretty well bareback, but...I didn't need to do anything like that for my youngster.

Just weird.

[Sobriska]

The sad thing is some people will see this BS as a replacement to just good basics.
Poor horses:(

[Auventera Two]

This is EXTREMELY disturbing. :mad:
What I absolutely HATE is that after all this "laying down" the horse is completely lame in the hindquarters. :no: It's just sickening.

[summerhorse]

It's just a variation of breaking the horse's spirit and showing him who is boss. A good way to permanently injure a horse too. Or worse. I think there is a reason we can't see much up close and personal there. It does look like he is putting pressure on a nerve (as posted above) and making him pass out. Macho trick.

Now this might be an option for the last resort horse, tame it or shoot it but almost all horses will respond to the back to the basics approach. Even it means going back to step ONE and using time and patience. (what a concept!) I'd rather have a horse trained to do what I ask out of trust then out of fear.

If they wanted to teach that horse to lead first take all the tack off him and hey, teach him to lead! You can earn trust and respect in the round pen without making the horse pass out. Most of the people I've seen lay the horse down do it ONLY after teaching him the basics and then teaching him to lay down, not forcing him to.

Well at least he didn't flip him over when he reared which was the OLD cowboy way to do it! =8-O

Now that was a good way to kill your horse!

[Auventera Two]

There is no way in hell that a good horsemen should think "impairing the blood flow to the brain and making the horse pass out" is an acceptable form of horse handling. It is blatant bloody abuse and these assholes should sit in the clink for this crap!! :mad: I am absolutely FURIOUS.

[tbtrailrider]

He pokes fun at N/H in his videos, and the more I watch, I think that is what he is doing, grabbing a shoulder.and tightening the girth, or some type of cinch, so far he always has the horse tacked up in the vids.Some crazy stuff on You tube...

[Auventera Two]

Has anyone went to the site and looked at all his videos? I am fixin' to right now...:yes: will return with my take on it...
http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/Multimeadia.html

The video "The Tantrum" is horrible. :no: :cry: That poor baby. That is abuse. Absolute and total ABUSE. He is riding a baby and forces the horse down to the ground so many times that the horse just refuses to get back up. So he is on top of the horse kicking him to get him to rise. So then when the horse does get back up, he ends up whipping the horse with a crop trying to get him to go forward. This asshole should be burned at the stake!

Does anybody know of an animal rights organization in Australia such as the ASPCA that we have here in the states? I want to report this website to whomever I can. This is just unbelievable.

[SuperSTB]

Nothing new- he just gave it his own name- thanksfully he's not trying to market the heck out of it for big $$. We were discussing this on another board. I've seen it before as a teen so that's 20 yrs ago- without ropes. I've seen similar things using ropes (think Horse Whisperer movie near the end when he gets the girl to ride).

My point of view... it's certainly less humane than some pretty well wide used methods to submit a horse. HOWEVER it should never be used as a primary approach to all horse training... rather as a last resort for the difficult dominant types.

What I do wonder is long term effectiveness? This guy (Endo on Myspace) has a bunch of videos, more than just what is on the website. It looks like one horse figured it out to be a pretty effective method to be evasive. Of course the crop came out to handle that situation.

[SuperSTB]

BTW the guy sounds like a &*$% yahoo idiot on his myspace.

What makes him *not* a trainer in my opinion.... he handles all situations in the same approach.

A good 'trainer' or.... whatever he's calling himself on YouTube... is one who can adapt/utilize a large variety of humane training methods to the needs of the horse. Clearly not the case here.

[OakesBrae]

Anyone notice that his name was endospink?? Maybe it's just me ;-)

[citydog]

Vagus nerve.

And the %#$@wit hasn't a clue about what a "behaviorist" actually does.

Sort of like training a dog who wants to be the Alpha over its owner, I've read when the dog is agressive flip him over on his back (gently) with belly exposed. Sort of like Wolf behavior.

NO! NO! NO!!! That's a great way to get yourself bitten in the face. Don't EVER do the "alpha roll" thing. It is *not* the way to position yourself at the head of the pecking order. Wolves do not go flipping others over to assert dominance. The submissive animal rolls itself over and *offers* it's own belly. The alpha roll was a gravely misguided technique that has since been discredited even by the trainers (Monks of New Skete) who popularized it. Don't use it! It'll potentially traumatize softer dogs, and provoke harder ones. AARGH! (Sorry for the vent. Dog trainer here, and I've seen *way* too many dogs messed up by this crap.)

[tbtrailrider]

Vagus nerve.

And the %#$@wit hasn't a clue about what a "behaviorist" actually does.



NO! NO! NO!!! That's a great way to get yourself bitten in the face. Don't EVER do the "alpha roll" thing. It is *not* the way to position yourself at the head of the pecking order. Wolves do not go flipping others over to assert dominance. The submissive animal rolls itself over and *offers* it's own belly. The alpha roll was a gravely misguided technique that has since been discredited even by the trainers (Monks of New Skete) who popularized it. Don't use it! It'll potentially traumatize softer dogs, and provoke harder ones. AARGH! (Sorry for the vent. Dog trainer here, and I've seen *way* too many dogs messed up by this crap.)
So true...

[siseley]

:eek:
Is this the guy who was on horsecity?
Some one was fawning over some guy who layed the horses down. Don't remember what the deal was.

Steve

Yep!

He claimed to be able to make any horse submit, and be usable? Wthf?

[lstevenson]

The video "The Tantrum" is horrible. :no: :cry: That poor baby. That is abuse. Absolute and total ABUSE. He is riding a baby and forces the horse down to the ground so many times that the horse just refuses to get back up. So he is on top of the horse kicking him to get him to rise. So then when the horse does get back up, he ends up whipping the horse with a crop trying to get him to go forward. This asshole should be burned at the stake!

Does anybody know of an animal rights organization in Australia such as the ASPCA that we have here in the states? I want to report this website to whomever I can. This is just unbelievable.




:eek: OMG, I agree. Just when I thought people couldn't come up with any more insane "training" methods, something like this comes up. That video is horrendous. Those poor horses need to be educated not knocked out.

This guy deserves to be shot. I hope one of these horses hurts him.

[hundredacres]

Very interesting video. IMO I didn't see anything wrong or inhumane about it. Sort of like training a dog who wants to be the Alpha over its owner, I've read when the dog is agressive flip him over on his back (gently) with belly exposed. Sort of like Wolf behavior.

This is what I'm seeing. I'm not understanding it though...but I do think we'll hear something soon ;). I hope so anyway.

We have a seriously dominant husky that had in her young adult life forgotten where she stands in the household pack (and some people would have had her put to sleep for her aggression). One day I saw my husband in the pasture next to the 4 wheeler, on the ground over the dog...I thought he'd run her over...I started out there but by the time I got to them she'd hopped up and started back to the house - with a whole new attitude.

DH said she kept attacking the other dogs while they were going for their run - he'd warned her, she ignored him, so he got off the 4 wheeler and pinned her on her back on the ground and growled in her face until she pee'd.

She's been a new dog ever since that day.

So...I'm interested in what TAP is...and under what circumstances it can be used.

[Amwrider]

Have you seen video of lions bringing down big game by the nose and pulling it around until it flops over? This is natures way of "shutting down" the animal while it is disembowled. The endorphins act as nature's painkillers while the animal is being eaten alive.

That being said, a horse brought down in this manner is at his most vulnerable and the horse thinks that whatever brought it down is probably going to eat him.

That is why you see problem horses laid down, it is a last-ditch effort to put the horse into his place and say "I have the power to eat you, but I won't."

It seems to be more and more common in some of the "natural horsemen" today because they claim it builds trust.

I have never laid a horse down but I do know of a couple of trainers that have, for the horse that is so dangerous that there was little else to do. It will work for some horses, others it may completely break them down mentally (post traumatic stress disorder in horses?)

I think it is wrong to do this to an otherwise good horse and this guy seems to do it with every horse that is brought to him. I also think it is wrong to market this (or any laying down) method to the general public because of how traumatized it will make any horse.

[Auventera Two]

HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby! :eek:

[hundredacres]

HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby! :eek:


I realize this. But there IS a level of subordination that I am trying to figure out (still trying to figure out what is happening in the video and why...haven't sorted through it yet). I did not mean, by any means that a horse and dog should be treated the same. Sorry that I did imply that with the order of my comment.

I've run a youngster off, like a mare would. It did get a message across ;).

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

I think the method has it's place in more extreme cases.

That being said, my general vibe from watching the videos and browsing his website is not a good one. I get the impression he's an incredibly arrogant, asshole kind of guy. NOT someone who I would ever give my horse to to "train".

The only other time I've heard of this method was through my old western pleasure trainer. One of his buddies was riding a stallion out on the trail when the stallion started misbehaving. What's was the guy's solution? He brought him down to the ground using a method that sounded similar to this, and castrated him. On the trail. :no: What was even worse was that said wp trainer was impressed by this. :no: :no:

I have no patience for macho men. There is nothing that makes my blood boil and pisses me off more than these displays of "manliness".

[Coup De Des]

oh lord. Don't tell me Too Simple has found another thread for which to bestow her vast and great knowledge.

*yawn* Too simple indeed.

[Dazednconfused]

Hmm. I don't consider this abuse (and would consider using it on those who are difficult about clipping, especially - if I had hands on instruction on how to do it). The problems I see is...

1. It seems to be used as an approach to every problem (WRONG!). There's no way that this should be used on any and every horse.
2. I hope people don't try this just by watching a video online or a webpage. Not good, IMO.
3. The riding part could be extremely dangerous (What if the horse loses its balance and falls on you? :o )
4. I'm not sure that this would ever work longterm. My assumption of the typical method of throwing a horse down is so that the horse is concious and aware of the throwing-down and that you can be dominant (not to sound hokey). The horse has to *know* that you are the one doing this to him. This is something that is an absolute last resort to my knowledge - for truly bad behavior that has been ruled out from physical causes, especially. I'm not sure this method of endorphin release does anything term, though, is my point. If the horse isn't concious when you reprimand him for the undesireable behavior, how does he learn? He can't, I don't think.

[Dazednconfused]

HORSES ARE NOT DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED LIKE DOGS. THEY SHOULD NEVER BE TRAINED LIKE DOGS. DOGS ARE PREDATORS. HORSES ARE PREY.

Just like Amwrider said - laying a horse down by twisting its head around is what a predator would do to it before killing and eating it. Throwing an agressive predatory dog over on its side or back is COMPLETELY opposite of throwing a prey horse down on its side!

When is the last time you saw an alpha horse punish another subordinate horse by throwing it down on its back and holding it by the throat? NEVER. Unless it was a stallion about to kill another stallion and they were in a brutal fight to the death. But I bet you've seen this happen in a dog pack, haven't you? Alphas will often put subordinates in their place by pinning them down and threatening them. When my dog was a puppy, he was in a tremendous struggle for power in our house. I reached down to pick up a toy of his and he knocked me over and got on my chest with his snarling teeth at my throat. This is how dogs communicate agression and power to another dog who will not submit.

This is why you can do it to a dog, but NOT A HORSE. If you think you can train or break a horse like you can a dog, you need a different hobby! :eek:

I guess you never saw the show on PBS about the Mustang herd (the stallion's name was Cloud, as I recall). Something very similar happened on it as I recall.

Humans don't have the strength or ability (although if you've learned to pin your ears I'd love to learn :lol: ) to reprimand a horse as a herdmate in the traditional way (kicking, biting, ear pinning, etc).

I've come to realize that you don't have very wide experience, TwoSimple. You have never had (obviously) to deal with a horse that truly had a screw loose, despite ideal training and handling, would just as soon kill you as anything. Or had a horse that was so ruined that it took last-resort methods to fix it. As I said in my prior post, using it on all horses is wrong, but to fix issues and as a last resort it seems to be a valid technique. If you haven't had to deal with these kinds of horses (which you obviously haven't), then it's no surprise you don't agree with it. :no:

[Coup De Des]

Has anyone watched the ORIGINAL version of the tantrum (which is NOT by the same person as the Original video) Here it is. I think you are confusing Video Posters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHm7p5NiEs

And I agree, Dazed. Too simple... You are a moron. That horse is not being lay down. You blind person. That horse refuses to go forward and is throwing itself down on the ground.

Must be an interesting world to live in when you only see what you want to see. . . . Do your lotto numbers come up every single week? Because if I only saw what I wanted to see, you betchya i'd be winning lotto baby!

[A. P.]

There is a video ("Variations": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfXL_NEXTuM

of a girl doing this technique with a horse on long-lines, the handler standing well behind the horse. You can see from it that the position of the neck is what is putting the horse down, not the hand on the whither or tightening the girth.

I'd be very curious to see what vet would say about this.

BTW: hear is some text describing the technique: http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/index.html

I am not advocating this technique for putting a horse down, but there is a less extreme method that can be useful: a 'neck twitch' - if a horse won't stand for a shot, for example. Imagine you are standing on the left side of the horse, facing it's shoulder. Taking the lead line in the right hand and grabbing the halter in the left, pull the head towards you. Grap the horses neck with your right hand (which also has the lead): this keeps the horses neck bent. The head is is not cranked around nearly as far as it is in this guys videos. There should be a foot or two of lead between your right hand and the horses head. I have found this will often make a horse stand still. I never even knew there was a name for this technique until my vet referred to it as a 'neck twitch'. It does not put them down or make them pass out, just makes them stand still.

[Dazednconfused]

Id be very curious to see what vet would say about this.

Me too. Anyone, anyone? :confused:

[Coup De Des]

ahh the first part of that video is adorable AP, the dark horse when he is layed down, looks so blissed out, he's even nibbling grass! When he gets up he does so calm as you like, ears pricked, eyes bright.

Do not have one single problem with Endospink and his methods.

[Ember]

I have now watched more of the videos and it is my opinion that the guy is an egotistical jerk. I don't think that horse is throwing a tantrum at all. I think what it shows is a horse who has had his "training" technique used on her in the past, hasn't had goods basics for backing and is getting confused and going to the only thing she knows he wants wich is to lay flat out on her side. For god sakes all she needs is a ground person. He sets them up for failure not sucess. Instigates a "fight" by crappy handling and then compromises blood flow to the brain.

I'm no wuss when it comes to discipline, mabey this vulcan pinch might have a place with a real "outlaw" but that's not what I'm seeing in any of the vids.

[Coup De Des]

shakes head..... sure ok.

No one is saying HEY EVERYONE! GO OUT AND TRY THIS WITH YOUR HORSES.

They are just showing different training techniques.

At least endospink doesn't do anything so derrogatory as to STAND on the horse while it's lying down. hmm?

[ddashaq]

Thanks for the link, Coup De Des. I have been watching this thread with fascination and that added an excellent new twist. I also happen to agree with you in regards to Endospink. I have seen far, far worse forms of laying horses down than the ones shown in the orignal post.

[A. P.]

I absolutely agree that in a perfect world, a horse who is handled well and whose trust you have earned should not need techniques like this.

However, the world is not perfect.

First, if in fact the technique releases endorphins, the horse is not passing out do to lack of blood, oxygen etc. Endorphines are hormones that the brain secretes which signal 'All is well'. when a mother cat picks it's kittens up by the nape of the neck, they go limp: it's due to endorphins. The same princlple as a lip-twitch. It is not pain that is causing the horse to obey a twitch: the release of endorphins overcomes the 'flight response.

Of course the ideal in handling horses should be to never trigger the flight response... so, as I said in a perfect world these techniques would be unnecessary. But we all know there are times when an animal panics. If you can get that horse to stop panicing before it hurts iteself or someone else, I think it's a good tool to know, even if you hope you never have to use it.

[Coup De Des]

thank you..

I'm not trying to stir a fight, but I see nothing wrong with Endospink's video's. I think perhaps some of the more vocal posters in here have little experience working with young horses and racehorses at that....

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

thank you..

I'm not trying to stir a fight, but I see nothing wrong with Endospink's video's. I think perhaps some of the more vocal posters in here have little experience working with young horses and racehorses at that....

Agreed.

However, I just can't seem to justify such an extreme method for most horses. Does it have a place? Yes, I would say so...but I think the vast majority of the time, the issue can be resolved with a more back-to-basics approach.

I also can't seem to believe repeatedly lying down and getting up would be too terribly good for a horse's joints, particularly young ones.

[Coup De Des]

but no one is saying you NEED to use it on your horse -- or on EVERY horse.

But how many of you have had a young horse, throw themselves down on the ground and refuse to go forward the first time you try to ride it?

Desperate times call for desperate measures, No amount of loving and petting and blowing kisses at this filly was going to resolve the issue - and if the issue hadn't been nipped in the bud immediately - they would have a huge problem on their hands..

[abrant]

Hahahaa... The video titled "Tantrum" made me laugh. Why??

His own method was biting him in the butt.

Every once in a while you run into a really smart kinda nasty mostly lazy horse and they will show you what an idiot you are.

He had obviously laid down that horse before to show his amazing skills. So horse is stressed stressed stressed by a human. Human lays them down and pets them and stops stressing them. Horse doesn't want to work? Lay down! About halfway through that video you can see him realize what an idiot he is (he praises her the first couple times, THEN starts hitting and kicking).

Mwhahahahaha.

I would like to see him work with a truly dangerous horse. Those are just half-feral thoroughbred babies. Most of them have little fits but aren't going for blood. They're also young and small... easily impressionable and overwelmed. You wouldn't catch me dead breaking out our TB babies, but I can still appreciate the difference between something stressed/scared/mildly evil and something really dangerous. Like the yearling I had that was a dirty striker versus the ones that balk and buck a little.

~Adrienne

[Chevalnoir]

You're right - lots of us have had no experience in riding yearlings that are ruined to the point that only laying them down will let the human survive the experience of making a useful citizen of the killer baby horse, like endospink is doing.

Personally, I started my last horse under saddle when he was 3 1/2 and about 1200 pounds and the whole thing was as thrilling and dangerous as watching paint dry, which is the way I like it.

Each to his own....

[ddashaq]

He never even actually laid that particular horse down did he? Perhaps I missed it, but I thought that it looked like he was just driving her forward and she kept laying herself down. I agree, laying down is not a method for every horse or even most horses, but for those few who need it, it works. In my experience, it is a last ditch effort to fix a problem that would otherwise lead the horse to the kill pen.

[endorphins4u]

Hey has anyone seen Endo ?

[Coup De Des]

yah he was posting on another board I was on a few hours ago. He's in japan remember. Has gone to work.

Doesn't actually know what COTH is. Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around COTH :P

[Chevalnoir]

Yes, I've seen it. I'd be very interested in seeing an actual study that proves that endorphin release is what is causing the horse to collapse, because frankly to me it looks more like pressure on the vagus nerve is causing the horse's heart and respiration rates to drop. In which case, I don't think it's quite as harmless as it looks, and rather analogous to choking a dog or human into unconsciousness. They tend to be rather mellow when they regain consciousness afterwards, too. At least for a time.

There is a place for that sort of thing - I have myself choked dogs into unconsciousness a time or two when there was no other option - but I don't consider it a routine training technique suited to most handlers or most dogs. More of an emergency technique, to be used instead of a well placed bullet.

I suspect this technique is a similar tool when it comes to horses, and as such I don't expect to ever have to use it. There are a lot of less dramatic training techniques that suffice to do the job in almost all situations. There should be very, very few horses indeed who would require such drastic measures in most trainer's lives.

However - if the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon everything looks like a nail.....

[OakesBrae]

Why didn't he have someone lead the filly?

Quite common for the youngsters not to go forward, actually, when green under saddle. And when kicked they shut down further.

I think that little filly is one of the smartest ones I've seen. I raise my glass to that scrappy little thing!

[OakesBrae]

I should add, I think with true problem horses, desperate measures are warranted - and maybe this filly was - though I see no indication of that. I see a green, young, confused filly.

[lstevenson]

You are a moron. That horse is not being lay down. You blind person. That horse refuses to go forward and is throwing itself down on the ground.



Are you BLIND!?! Oh, I get it, you are one of his groupies. :mad:

That horse is NOT throwing itself down. He is throwing the horse down just like he did every other horse in every other video for ABSOLUTELY no valid reason. That horse, like so many others in the videos, is a baby. Young horses have to be TAUGHT to go forward from the leg.

It is ludicris to think that a young horse that simply won't immediately from the leg is a rogue, and deserves having someone PARALYZE them by pinching a nerve.

[endorphins4u]

Why didn't he have someone lead the filly?

Quite common for the youngsters not to go forward, actually, when green under saddle. And when kicked they shut down further.

I think that little filly is one of the smartest ones I've seen. I raise my glass to that scrappy little thing!

Very smart...she knew I was helpless is she sat down, look at her ears she was relaxed sitting there..

I didn't want her going down there because I only had a small window before the other farms started coming in..

If I wanted her down I would have drop her in the round pen..

I had a guy try and lead her but as soon as he gave a tug on the lead she ran back until she felt something touch her butt and wouldn't budge..

Thats why I pulled her out of the round pen. She backed up to the wall and reared against the wall if I applied any pressure to get her to come off it..

If you noticed I was swinging her butt around to keep her away from the walls in the indoor..

[OakesBrae]

You must be endo, nice to meet you.

Ooh, the little stinker! Did she do that on the ground too without a rider or was it a reaction to weight?

Sounds like a challenge just in general - but likely one that if you got her in your corner she'd be fantastic!

[OakesBrae]

Oh I should say - yes, I noticed that about the wall and wondered about it, because often times that's a nice reminder to go forward (when the wall bites them in the butt).

[matryoshka]

I guess he's not likely to post videos of getting bucked over a horse's ears, is he? I might actually pay money to see that one! I don't see any training or learning happening.

Whatever happened to starting them in ground work and ground driving before putting them under saddle? Plenty of the people in my area who break TB's for the track do all of that. Then again, there is a small percentage of horses who buck and throw themselves around like maniacs and go to a very talented cowboy in the area. One of the horses sent to him had excellent ground manners--she was just nearly impossible to ride. A friend watched him work her. The cowboy doesn't man-handle them, just toughs it out and manages to get some kind of lesson in with the horse each time he works it. That guy went from unknown to having a waiting list of difficult racehorses to break.

I couldn't even watch all of the "Tantrum" clip. One time the horse went down it went nose-in-the-dirt before the shoulder went down. I wonder if the guy also does chiropractic work, because the horses sure need it after he's done his under-saddle work! No thanks!! :no:

[endorphins4u]

[QUOTE=lstevenson;2075232]Are you BLIND!?! Oh, I get it, you are one of his groupies. :mad:
That horse is NOT throwing itself down. He is throwing the horse down just like he did every other horse in every other video for ABSOLUTELY no valid reason. That horse, like so many others in the videos, is a baby. Young horses have to be TAUGHT to go forward from the leg.
QUOTE]

Isteventurnedon.......have you got white eyes too like that old dude ?

How the "H" did I get her down on a loose rein ?

You need pressure to execute the tap...

Could you not see the intentional twist she was chucking in on the ground ?

[endorphins4u]

You must be endo, nice to meet you.

Ooh, the little stinker! Did she do that on the ground too without a rider or was it a reaction to weight?

Sounds like a challenge just in general - but likely one that if you got her in your corner she'd be fantastic!

She tried to lay down when I was doing my chin strap up before I got on her, that why I pulled the reins over her head so she wouldn't tread on them..

She's a little cutey...she got a short compact body build for speed and I'll get the 3rd installment of how she's going now up in a day or too ok..

[OakesBrae]

That IS a smart one. I'd love to see her go :) I'd love to hear more about her history - when the problem was discovered etc.

[endorphins4u]

Oh I should say - yes, I noticed that about the wall and wondered about it, because often times that's a nice reminder to go forward (when the wall bites them in the butt).


She backed up about 15m when the guy tried to lead and crached into some bushes but then kept going, I had to get off because she wasn't focused on the enviroment around her just me..

[catknsn]

Why didn't he have someone lead the filly?

Quite common for the youngsters not to go forward, actually, when green under saddle. And when kicked they shut down further.



I agree. I don't understand getting on young horses without a ground person. A ground person makes the whole thing less scary and less confusing for them. How on earth is a horse who's never been sat on supposed to know what the proper response to being kicked is?

[OakesBrae]

Eek! Yea, THAT'S not a fun situation at all. Stubborn as heck *laughing*

[cinder88]

As a person who has a VERY easily triggered "Vagus response", let me tell you it is NO FUN.

I'm pretty sure that is what is happening here...

The vagus nerve is being activated, which drops your blood pressure down to ZERO, which makes you black out until your heart screams.."WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON???!! ARE WE DIE-ING???!" and quickly pumps you full of adrenalin and kicks your blood pressure into 5th gear to bring you back to consciousness. At which point, you are dizzy, disoriented, sweating and feel ill. This whole thing can happen in a matter of SECONDS. Perhaps as little as 4 seconds from beginning to end.

Believe me, if someone used that technique to get me to do something, I'd be all "YES SIR!" too, you'd better believe it!

It's a terrible feeling, and if that is in fact what this "technique" is doing, I think the purveyors of the technique should enjoy a few "vassal vagal" episodes themselves, to see what it is like.

CInder

[endorphins4u]

That IS a smart one. I'd love to see her go :) I'd love to hear more about her history - when the problem was discovered etc.

In the round pen just before I took her to the indoor..she was quiet during the 3 days of sidereins on the walking machine..

She was normal, that movie is the history of the problem because everything was fine until I got on and she lost it..

[summerhorse]

:eek:
Is this the guy who was on horsecity?
Some one was fawning over some guy who layed the horses down. Don't remember what the deal was.

Steve

Yep!

He claimed to be able to make any horse submit, and be usable? Wthf?


I know a couple horses he wouldn't be able to do that to without his tack and pully system and if he did would promptly try to kill him should he ever approach them again. They carry serious grudges, these horses! 8-D But treat them nice and they are pocket ponies. But they were both so abused (by different people) that they just reached the point where they decided it was fight back or die. You don't get a second chance to hurt them. But since NObody I know would ever do something like this to them (or any horse) the world is safe from horsey revenge.

[Ember]

ahh the first part of that video is adorable AP, the dark horse when he is layed down, looks so blissed out, he's even nibbling grass! When he gets up he does so calm as you like, ears pricked, eyes bright.

Do not have one single problem with Endospink and his methods.


are you serious? Have you watched the other videos?

I just found this one, my mouth was hanging open most of the time I watched it. Brought back memories of those old western books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZGWHnpi_Jg

Colt is behaving nicely, he knocks it out using that "tap" thing, climbs on it and whips the crap out of it.

[MacknCody]

Alright while the guy's(it is a guy right?) not actually beating it.......how does the method help other aspects like under saddle? What do you do when the horse acts up when your on its back? Why make it pass out? Sounds a little dangerous to lower the blood pressure that much. Sorry I wasn't sold on the idea, think I'll stick to the old 'control their feet, control their brain" theory.

Ohhh just read the post about the guy castrating the horse in the middle of the trail!! what goes through these wack-jobs minds?!:eek: :mad:

Carry on...

[summerhorse]

Has anyone watched the ORIGINAL version of the tantrum (which is NOT by the same person as the Original video) Here it is. I think you are confusing Video Posters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHm7p5NiEs

And I agree, Dazed. Too simple... You are a moron. That horse is not being lay down. You blind person. That horse refuses to go forward and is throwing itself down on the ground.

Must be an interesting world to live in when you only see what you want to see. . . . Do your lotto numbers come up every single week? Because if I only saw what I wanted to see, you betchya i'd be winning lotto baby!


I'm not actually sure what side this post is on... 8-D

But that video sure shows how you can never go wrong by instilling the basics in a horse. Something this filly seems to be lacking! And again with all the crap on her head! Maybe if he got OUT of her mouth she would have gone forward, now she seems to fear that bit so much she'll back away the minute it touches the corner of her mouth (not that I blame her at all). But hey she's got a great back doesn't she?

I've seen horses throw themselves down and sulk. They plop down on their bellies and lay there or roll over, they sit down and then roll over, the flip over backwards, sometimes they lay there refusing to get up and sometimes they jump right up but i have never ever seen a horse that would willingly go down head first. (not counting accidents) Has anyone? It is way too vulnerable.

I wonder what kind of damage this repeated nerve pinching might do to a young horse?

[OakesBrae]

Can you explain the state the horse is in while they are down? Does it act like a drug on their system? It's very interesting to me because I've never seen a horse react this way unless sedated. Not picking - just trying to understand how they get anything out of it.

[summerhorse]

There is a video ("Variations": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfXL_NEXTuM

of a girl doing this technique with a horse on long-lines, the handler standing well behind the horse. You can see from it that the position of the neck is what is putting the horse down, not the hand on the whither or tightening the girth.

I'd be very curious to see what vet would say about this.

BTW: hear is some text describing the technique: http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/index.html

I am not advocating this technique for putting a horse down, but there is a less extreme method that can be useful: a 'neck twitch' - if a horse won't stand for a shot, for example. Imagine you are standing on the left side of the horse, facing it's shoulder. Taking the lead line in the right hand and grabbing the halter in the left, pull the head towards you. Grap the horses neck with your right hand (which also has the lead): this keeps the horses neck bent. The head is is not cranked around nearly as far as it is in this guys videos. There should be a foot or two of lead between your right hand and the horses head. I have found this will often make a horse stand still. I never even knew there was a name for this technique until my vet referred to it as a 'neck twitch'. It does not put them down or make them pass out, just makes them stand still.


Yeah I've seen the neck twitch and the s houlder twitch used by vets when they are doing something very unpleasant (or that the HORSE feels is very unpleasant anyway). They are useful techniques for temporary restraint esp. when you don't want to or can't use sedatives.

As for the *coughTAPb*llsh*tcough* frankly I think most people and animals learn better when they are fully conscious. But hey that's just me! LOL. I couldn't find anything that shows any proof this releases "endorphins" though, just bottoms out the blood pressure. Is there somewhere that offers some proof of "endorphins" and how much they actually would actually affect a horse in this position? Usually they are equated with people running marathons trying to get that LAST 50 yards, horses running for the wire on a broken leg, not passing out at your feet. And i suspect adrenalin has a fair effect on those examples!

[lstevenson]

How the "H" did I get her down on a loose rein ?

You need pressure to execute the tap...

Could you not see the intentional twist she was chucking in on the ground ?


You are so full of s%$#!



It's a terrible feeling, and if that is in fact what this "technique" is doing, I think the purveyors of the technique should enjoy a few "vassal vagal" episodes themselves, to see what it is like.




:yes: They should also be castrated.

[tbtrailrider]

are you serious? Have you watched the other videos?

I just found this one, my mouth was hanging open most of the time I watched it. Brought back memories of those old western books.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZGWHnpi_Jg

Colt is behaving nicely, he knocks it out using that "tap" thing, climbs on it and whips the crap out of it.

Worst hands on a rider I have seen in a while. What a kook..what he is doing is unnatural. When Dennis Reis lays a horse down, it's almost poetic to watch.

[oleary157]

1) I do not agree with your "methods" at all:yes:

2) the video entitled "tantrum" is abuse in my opinion. At what time when that horse was zipping around backwards with its head between its front legs did it look like it was having fun and enjoying its job?:mad:

3) I would never do this to my horse, nor do I feel your method of making a horse lie down solves anything.:no:

4) How does lying down help stoppers at fences? so after they stop they can back up 15 feet then lie down?:rolleyes:

5) I don't feel bowing and lying down (WITH TACK ON might I add) are cures to any problem, rearing specifically. :sigh:

[endorphins4u]

Worst hands on a rider I have seen in a while. What a kook..what he is doing is unnatural. When Dennis Reis lays a horse down, it's almost poetic to watch.

Everything looks poetic to the naive...

I can show you poetic too but it wouldn't be real..

[mommy peanut]

So I'm guessing that the guy in a cast is the one that got kicked(in Cheeky horse)?
While I don't know that I would ever use this type of practice on my horses, each to their own.
I also have to agree that the one of the filly, def. is her(the horse) laying down to avoid work, rather that aany "force" making her lay down.
I would like to know what actually happened in the Oh S*** clip though:yes:

[endorphins4u]

1) I do not agree with your "methods" at all:yes:

2) the video entitled "tantrum" is abuse in my opinion. At what time when that horse was zipping around backwards with its head between its front legs did it look like it was having fun and enjoying its job?:mad:

3) I would never do this to my horse, nor do I feel your method of making a horse lie down solves anything.:no:

4) How does lying down help stoppers at fences? so after they stop they can back up 15 feet then lie down?:rolleyes:

5) I don't feel bowing and lying down (WITH TACK ON might I add) are cures to any problem, rearing specifically. :sigh:

If you people knew half of what you were talking about you wouldn't hanging around a horse board..

Where are your movies ? you say you have nothing to prove ? You have if you want my respect because I have got the gonads to post stuff I know people will attack because there are also people that are watching and learning...

Those who bash something they don't understand are pathethic..you are the ugly side of the internet...

[lstevenson]

I also have to agree that the one of the filly, def. is her(the horse) laying down to avoid work, rather that aany "force" making her lay down.



No, she's not.

Cinder gives a good explanation of what he is doing to her.



The vagus nerve is being activated, which drops your blood pressure down to ZERO, which makes you black out until your heart screams.."WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON???!! ARE WE DIE-ING???!" and quickly pumps you full of adrenalin and kicks your blood pressure into 5th gear to bring you back to consciousness. At which point, you are dizzy, disoriented, sweating and feel ill. This whole thing can happen in a matter of SECONDS. Perhaps as little as 4 seconds from beginning to end.

It's a terrible feeling, and if that is in fact what this "technique" is doing, I think the purveyors of the technique should enjoy a few "vassal vagal" episodes themselves, to see what it is like.

[endorphins4u]

So I'm guessing that the guy in a cast is the one that got kicked(in Cheeky horse)?
While I don't know that I would ever use this type of practice on my horses, each to their own.
I also have to agree that the one of the filly, def. is her(the horse) laying down to avoid work, rather that aany "force" making her lay down.
I would like to know what actually happened in the Oh S*** clip though:yes:

I'm not telling people to use this...
I'm not selling anything...
This is not a training method..
This is just another tool for your toolbox for oneday when you might need it..thats all..

At least there are a few people more people that can see the laying down wasn't me, which was the idea of post the un-cut version..

I know there are a few good and clever people on every board..

The "oh sh*t" movie was just for laugh because i thought that ending was a bit more exciting than just pulling up ...

Most of my movies are to be taken with a grain of salt..

[lstevenson]

Those who bash something they don't understand are pathethic..you are the ugly side of the internet...


Oh, I understand it all right. You have learned a dangerous trick and are now playing God. Knocking out horses to make yourself feel like a BIG MAN. Well, I've got news for you. You are only impressing the ignorant fools.

[Chevalnoir]

Guess what - I for one don't particularly want your respect.

Enjoy your party trick and the notoriety that comes with it and hope that you never end up seriously damaging or even killing a horse using it.

[abrant]

If you people knew half of what you were talking about you wouldn't hanging around a horse board..

Wait?! What are YOU doing here?!

Someone on the breeding forum put together a cute list of the anatomy of the trainwreck. They forgot about the part were the person under criticism comes out of the woodwork and tells everyone that they're stupid because they read/write on an internet forum ;)

Hey, I respect you for figuring out something that works for you. BUT, this doesn't make you the reigning master of horse behavior ;) The beauty of horses is that one method does NOT work for all of them. The best trainers/behaviorists out there preface all their work by saying that it WON'T work for every situation, I suggest you start exploring that idea.

And since you hit low to this person, I shall hit low.

If you're going to go around bashing people, SPECIFICALLY about idiocy and ignorance, I would strongly suggest that you spell check the text you put on your videos!!!

If the messiah of horse training does exist, I imagine he would be able to spell the word Braille.

If you're going to call people stupid, I would suggest covering your arse and make sure you don't end up looking supider <g>

But honestly, you aren't the first person in the world to come up with this idea, and since EVERYONE doesn't use it, that suggests that is has been designated to a tool, rather than a method.

~Adrienne

[endorphins4u]

Oh, I understand it all right. You have learned a dangerous trick and are now playing God. Knocking out horses to make yourself feel like a BIG MAN. Well, I've got news for you. You are only impressing the ignorant fools.

Prove it Isteventurnedon....

Prove me wrong..

Gather your posse and combine your narrow minded heads and maybe..you might get my attention..

Does my presence here bring out the predetor/prey thing in you ? You don't understand this and your reputation on this board is at stake...

It happen to any board I go to because people don't wanna swallow their pride and ask question about this..

Combine all the experience of the boards togther and you have 1000's of years experience yet not one person can do this the way I can..

I shouldn't be wasting my time with people like Istevenhardon...

But I'm not doing this for the money like some..this is my own experience I'm sharing with you for free...

I do not need to listen to your crap....but will because lurkers give me the strength to carry on...

peace out dude...

[abrant]

Combine all the experience of the boards togther and you have 1000's of years experience yet not one person can do this the way I can..
..

My lord.

I have a 17h Unbridled gelding who falls down if you tighten the girth too fast, does that count?

[endorphins4u]

Wait?! What are YOU doing here?!

Someone on the breeding forum put together a cute list of the anatomy of the trainwreck. They forgot about the part were the person under criticism comes out of the woodwork and tells everyone that they're stupid because they read/write on an internet forum ;)

Hey, I respect you for figuring out something that works for you. BUT, this doesn't make you the reigning master of horse behavior ;) The beauty of horses is that one method does NOT work for all of them. The best trainers/behaviorists out there preface all their work by saying that it WON'T work for every situation, I suggest you start exploring that idea.

And since you hit low to this person, I shall hit low.

If you're going to go around bashing people, SPECIFICALLY about idiocy and ignorance, I would strongly suggest that you spell check the text you put on your videos!!!

If the messiah of horse training does exist, I imagine he would be able to spell the word Braille.

If you're going to call people stupid, I would suggest covering your arse and make sure you don't end up looking supider <g>

But honestly, you aren't the first person in the world to come up with this idea, and since EVERYONE doesn't use it, that suggests that is has been designated to a tool, rather than a method.

~Adrienne

I have always said this was a tool not a method..

I don't have to spell check, I'm not selling anything, these are home made movies...thats all

and I came here because people were bashing me behind my back and I think I have a right to set the record straight and stick up for myself..

There are a lot of boards disscussing this and a lot of people are left in the dark because just can't be bothered going thru the same crap over and over again..

Can you see understand why I come out swinging now ? I donnot want to argue but sometime you have to drop a bomb and just wait till the smoke clears before people can start debating like adults...

[Chevalnoir]

Combine all the experience of the boards togther and you have 1000's of years experience yet not one person can do this the way I can..

Well, thank goodness for that, at least!

I'm sure the horses of the world are breathing a sigh of relief right about now....

[lstevenson]

Does my presence here bring out the predetor/prey thing in you ? You don't understand this and your reputation on this board is at stake...



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, yeah. I'm very worried that you are going to take over my business! With your "horse training skills" and all.;)

As I said before, I UNDERSTAND exactly what you are doing. Some cowboys knock a horse over. But you are MAKING HORSES PASS OUT.

I could see a VERY SMALL piece of merit in this for horses that were TRUELY rogues. But the horses in your videos are not doing ANYTHING wrong! They are high strung, green horses, that need simply to be trained. And what you are doing to them is ABUSIVE, period.

You knock over every single horse, just because you can. And the really scarey part is that you are so proud of it. There is a special place in hell for people that do things like this to defenseless animals.

[endorphins4u]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, yeah. I'm very worried that you are going to take over my business! With your "horse training skills" and all.;)

As I said before, I UNDERSTAND exactly what you are doing. Some cowboys knock a horse over. But you are MAKING HORSES PASS OUT.

I could see a VERY SMALL piece of merit in this for horses that were TRUELY rogues. But the horses in your videos are not doing ANYTHING wrong! They are high strung, green horses, that need simply to be trained. And what you are doing to them is ABUSIVE, period.

You knock over every single horse, just because you can. And the really scarey part is that you are so proud of it. There is a special place in hell for people that do things like this to defenseless animals.

Are you GAY ? is that it ? you want my pink pants don't you ..

[lstevenson]

Are you GAY ? is that it ? you want my pink pants don't you ..



:lol: No, I am not gay. But you are a f***ing loon. Watch for the people with the white coats.

[equusrocks]

Hmmm...

I think, that even though it's definitely more unconventional than anything I'll ever use, I haven't read or watched everything and frankly don't know enough about it to make an educated opinion about professionals using it.

I do know of some horses that conventional training didn't work for, and I'd be all for a different "tool" if it stopped the horses from being euthanized due to their issues. I know thats not the case in all horses or even most, or anything close to that, but if a tool (used by a professional) can safely help a horses training issues that are so severe they are a true danger to themselves and others, I'm all for it. Of course, that's a bunch of "ifs" but thats what I usually end up thinking about when reading these threads on different tools and methods. I think though, I'd like to share those videos with my vet, just to see what she thinks. I think very highly of her and am really interested in what she might say. I'm still sticking to my "I don't know enough about it to really say anything" position, but I wasn't really horrified by the first video posted. Confused, yes, horrified, no. *shrug* will see what the vet says. Interesting topic, at least.

[MacknCody]

My lord.

I have a 17h Unbridled gelding who falls down if you tighten the girth too fast, does that count?

that was the greatest!:lol: :lol:

[MacknCody]

Combine all the experience of the boards togther and you have 1000's of years experience yet not one person can do this the way I can..

The way you do it- honey I dont want to. The way Dennis Reis can, I would trust when all else has failed to have HIM do it. Without making them pass out. As an aside: have you ever consulted with a vet about this stuff?

Is that the only trick in your basket? Or does the making horses lay down pretty much encompass all your theories.

Meanwhile how is it you just happened onto the website just as a thread about yours truly showed up? Pretty concidental.:rolleyes:

[Ember]

What you do is not training it is breaking. It is quick brutal and nasty.

By your own words you think faster=better

"Your assuming it constricts blood flow because I have never posted that. Turning a horses head sends a false message to the horse's "Baroreceptor reflex" sensor located in the horse's throat which is connected to the "Vagus nerve" which lowers the horse'ss blood pressure..

Why do I start them in under an hour ? Because I wanna get better than I am and it doesn't get much harder than jumping on an un-broken horse in the middle of a field..

If I master that, the rest is down hill.. "

And I don't think it constricts blood flow but I do know that it compromises blood flow to the brain causing the horse to pass out.

Watching the tantrum video I don't think you were lying her down, I agree with abrant. She obviously has had this tap thing done to her and is confused and trying avoid having it done again by lying out flat.

"If you people knew half of what you were talking about you wouldn't hanging around a horse board..

Where are your movies ? you say you have nothing to prove ? You have if you want my respect because I have got the gonads to post stuff I know people will attack because there are also people that are watching and learning...

Those who bash something they don't understand are pathethic..you are the ugly side of the internet..."

I don't feel the need tape and post videos of my self because I am not an egocentric wanna be cowboy who needs the attention. I could care less about your respect, as I have none for you, in fact, I feel that your respect would diminish me. And no, I have no gonads. I now understand exactly what you are doing and it disgusts me. Just yuck. I'm not going to parry posts with you. I already feel dirty because of it. I started this thread because I was curious about what exactly was happening and was unaware of the other videos. I probably wouldn't have posted it if I had seen them. I hate that I've given you more notoriety.

[Ember]

Hmmm...

I think, that even though it's definitely more unconventional than anything I'll ever use, I haven't read or watched everything and frankly don't know enough about it to make an educated opinion about professionals using it.

I do know of some horses that conventional training didn't work for, and I'd be all for a different "tool" if it stopped the horses from being euthanized due to their issues. I know thats not the case in all horses or even most, or anything close to that, but if a tool (used by a professional) can safely help a horses training issues that are so severe they are a true danger to themselves and others, I'm all for it. Of course, that's a bunch of "ifs" but thats what I usually end up thinking about when reading these threads on different tools and methods. I think though, I'd like to share those videos with my vet, just to see what she thinks. I think very highly of her and am really interested in what she might say. I'm still sticking to my "I don't know enough about it to really say anything" position, but I wasn't really horrified by the first video posted. Confused, yes, horrified, no. *shrug* will see what the vet says. Interesting topic, at least.

Umm.. have you watched the other videos he has up. I was just curious about the first one. It wasn't until I watched them all that I reacted so strongly. That combined with his comments here and on youtube.

[lstevenson]

I hate that I've given you more notoriety.



Don't worry Ember, you haven't. It has educated some people on his crazy methods, enough to hopefully spare a few horses from this abuse as people figure out what he is really doing.

[Ember]

Mabey, but I am absolutely certain that there are some people who are going to try this out as soon as they get the chance. Not so much here but on the youtube comments I get the feeling there are some sick sadistic people egging him on, wanting him to post more videos of himself, arms flailing, as he whips a confused young horse.

Oooh, I'm not usually so affected like this.

[equusrocks]

Umm.. have you watched the other videos he has up. I was just curious about the first one. It wasn't until I watched them all that I reacted so strongly. That combined with his comments here and on youtube.


No I didn't. I watched the first one entirely, and part of the one with the white faced horse that started to lie down on her own, but I only saw about 30 seconds of that one. I was busy doing other things and didn't feel like devoting the time to watch entirely. Maybe tomorrow then, since it seems opinions seem to change once more are viewed. Happy Holidays!! Only what, 4 days till Christmas!!!! Yes, I'm 24 going on 4. :) :lol:

[tbtrailrider]

Everything looks poetic to the naive...

I can show you poetic too but it wouldn't be real..

Naivete does not come into play unless speaking of how naive someone would have to be to think you are any kind of horseman. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tbtrailrider]

My lord.

I have a 17h Unbridled gelding who falls down if you tighten the girth too fast, does that count?
I have a 5 year old Lion Cavern gelding who will too....

[Kementari]

The horse in the video isn't ready to be ridden. Plain and simple. And apparently she already tried to make that clear in the round pen before the filming started, but the rider wasn't smart enough to listen. :no:

Luckily, most of us can work out that if our horses lay down and refuse to go forward the first time we mount up, that means we haven't done enough ground work beforehand, and it's time to go back to basics. Of course, most of us do enough basics to start with that we are highly unlikely to encounter that problem.

That poor filly had no idea why her world and suddenly changed, and not a clue that being kicked HARD repeatedly meant "go forward." Horse's are born knowing that, you know. :rolleyes: But then, to know that, you'd have to actually care about TRAINING the horse, not just dominating it.

Oh, and by the way darlin', I *am* gay, and so won't consider that particular gem of yours an insult - just to warn you to try a bit harder this time. :lol:

[tbtrailrider]

You don't understand this and your reputation on this board is at stake...






Oh, I hardly think so...I am quite sure our reputations will stay intact . It is quite obvious you are not familiar with this board, which I have found to be frequented by the most passionate, knowledgeable horse people on the planet.

[goeslikestink]

ummmmmmmmmm

i watched the videos- and i do break in horses - there are certain horses that ican see that would be a useful tool my yard owner at the top has spent good money on her mare to be broekn in and by a named proffesional -- not me another thats well known i anit-
and in the process this mare is also know as a killer horse as she knows every trick in the book this mare in 10 now owner has given up trying to break her in and shes not easy to handle either--

when that mare was a foal and i used to watch her runing around the famr with her mother i told top yard lady owner out of all the you bred to be show jumpers that one was gifted as she could turn herself inside out so easily and being a red mare has the name of red as shes red in charactor to- its the one horse me and debs would love to break in as she so lovely but owner has decided to just let her live her life as a field ornement as she just two dangerous even to the point of having her feet trimmed -- shes tbxwb and is 17,2hh big and chunky --

shes the olny one of the set of foals from her mother that isnt worked the others her 1/2 sister and 2 brothers do but not her
her mother died a few years ago

to me this mare would difnately beneifit that triaing as a tool -- to get her broken to saddle --or to handle the mare in a better frame of mind

and iam going to say something else to-- itts no different to people attaching a chain throught the mouth and across the top sset of teeth using the horses addrenerlin against itself to make it passive to control

i see plenty of tb trianiners on this site that do that - to us in uk thats known as the mexican twitch -- by ussing the lead rope attached to one side of head collar passing over the head and threading though the otherside and passing the chain under top lip and pressing on top teeth -- if you pull and addpressure to the end of the lead rope and hang on for 10 mins the horse then will start to sweat -- what happens is when you realse the pressure the horse is dopey -- and enough dopeyness to handle or break in depending on time of prssure on end of lead rope -- i see dealers use this trcik a lot with horses that are wild that come straight of the lorry --

i see this action being used to when controlling a horse there plenty of piccys on usa sites that have the chain under the lip-- and thats the reason of control --

some use the chain over the nose and that to is a meothod of control

in all of these circustances they are methods of a tool of how to control a horse some are severe some arnt -- i personally ask the horse in a polite manner if the horse has been brought up well the task is easy--

but if the horse is of that way of mind then the task is harder

to each of all of us how we do things how we act is how the horse re-acts-- but in some cases when ahorses is downright dangeerous and theres no reason to be - in health, equipement, abuse, or temprement etc
and you have tried everything in the book to get it to go forward then sometimes you have to look at something else --a tool is all hes say it is -- another method --good or bad one has to be opened minded as one day you might be put in a situation you cant handle and might just remeber what you saw and over come that sitiuation

i am of an open mind

[endorphins4u]

Oh, I hardly think so...I am quite sure our reputations will stay intact . It is quite obvious you are not familiar with this board, which I have found to be frequented by the most passionate, knowledgeable horse people on the planet.

Cool, can somebody let me know if these knowledgeable people log on because I have something for them to ponder over..

[sidepasser]

ummmmmmmmmm

i watched the videos- and i do break in horses - there are certain horses that ican see that would be a useful tool my yard owner at the top has spent good money on her mare to be broekn in and by a named proffesional -- not me another thats well known i anit-
and in the process this mare is also know as a killer horse as she knows every trick in the book this mare in 10 now owner has given up trying to break her in and shes not easy to handle either--

when that mare was a foal and i used to watch her runing around the famr with her mother i told top yard lady owner out of all the you bred to be show jumpers that one was gifted as she could turn herself inside out so easily and being a red mare has the name of red as shes red in charactor to- its the one horse me and debs would love to break in as she so lovely but owner has decided to just let her live her life as a field ornement as she just two dangerous even to the point of having her feet trimmed -- shes tbxwb and is 17,2hh big and chunky --

shes the olny one of the set of foals from her mother that isnt worked the others her 1/2 sister and 2 brothers do but not her
her mother died a few years ago

to me this mare would difnately beneifit that triaing as a tool -- to get her broken to saddle --or to handle the mare in a better frame of mind

and iam going to say something else to-- itts no different to people attaching a chain throught the mouth and across the top sset of teeth using the horses addrenerlin against itself to make it passive to control

i see plenty of tb trianiners on this site that do that - to us in uk thats known as the mexican twitch -- by ussing the lead rope attached to one side of head collar passing over the head and threading though the otherside and passing the chain under top lip and pressing on top teeth -- if you pull and addpressure to the end of the lead rope and hang on for 10 mins the horse then will start to sweat -- what happens is when you realse the pressure the horse is dopey -- and enough dopeyness to handle or break in depending on time of prssure on end of lead rope -- i see dealers use this trcik a lot with horses that are wild that come straight of the lorry --

i see this action being used to when controlling a horse there plenty of piccys on usa sites that have the chain under the lip-- and thats the reason of control --

some use the chain over the nose and that to is a meothod of control

in all of these circustances they are methods of a tool of how to control a horse some are severe some arnt -- i personally ask the horse in a polite manner if the horse has been brought up well the task is easy--

but if the horse is of that way of mind then the task is harder

to each of all of us how we do things how we act is how the horse re-acts-- but in some cases when ahorses is downright dangeerous and theres no reason to be - in health, equipement, abuse, or temprement etc
and you have tried everything in the book to get it to go forward then sometimes you have to look at something else --a tool is all hes say it is -- another method --good or bad one has to be opened minded as one day you might be put in a situation you cant handle and might just remeber what you saw and over come that sitiuation

i am of an open mind

Very well said - there are some horses that would benefit from this tool just to get them in a different frame of mind so that they can learn. I've seen the twitch method you describe and the horse does get a lot calmer so that one can then work with the animal.

I have not seen our old trainer ever cause a horse to pass out while lowering it to the ground, the horse was always alert, ears twitching and sometimes teeth bared, but never passed out. I don't know that an unconscious horse would be able to process "any" information. I do know though that his method of grounding seemed to either work in spades or the horse was such a rogue it did not work at all. Those horses were put down as too dangerous to handle by anyone.

I also question whether the tool would work on a horse that did deliberately throw itself to the ground to get rid of the rider. We had a lady board here years ago that had a 16 hand black app mare with a white blanket - absolutely lovely mare, good ground manners. She'd spent a small fortune having the mare tested and vet/farrier checked and nothing ever came of the tests. The mare would stand for saddling and would let you get in the saddle and you could walk the mare in the arena or on the trail, she would trot and canter too, but she would also fling herself to the ground, just ass akimbo and roll on her rider. She had perfected this to an artform and the lady was unaware of this when she first bought the horse as a 3 year old. She also would do this while being ground driven "if" she did not want to continue trotting. I say if because it was only after she had been driven for a few minutes she'd get a bit balky, then she'd trot on and suddenly out of nowhere, fling her self over. She could also do a very nice rear and fall over backwards.

So I don't know that this particular tool would work on a horse that intentionally throws itself down to rid itself of the rider or rears and falls over backwards to achieve the same effect. The mare was retired at age 6 and never ridden. Not even on a lead as she would do the same thing whether tacked or not tacked. It was strange but since I refused to ride those types, and she had sent the horse out three times to other professionals (all sent horse home with the word "retire or euthanize") I figured a bit of self preservation would not hurt.

Since we did not know her past, one could not say she was this way due to bad handling when young. The vets and vet hospital could not find anything physical or neurological that was wrong. She just preferred I think to lose her rider in any manner she could. Once the rider was gone, she was back to very sweet ground manners with a good attitude (could be brushed, led, etc.). I thought it might have been learned behavior though - she did it once or twice and was successful as the rider put her up, so she learned to rid herself of the annoyance through repeated behavior. I can't say for sure that was the case, but given her nice manners and easy to get along with attitude, I thought she had learned these habits herself. Perhaps a person who was braver could have gotten her out of the habit, but I would not have trusted the horse not to revert to the same behavior.

Some horses are not willing, others are rogues, others are just confused and scared babies - the tool for training must fit the situation and one should have a large toolbox in hand.

[Auventera Two]

I guess he's not likely to post videos of getting bucked over a horse's ears, is he? I might actually pay money to see that one! I don't see any training or learning happening.

Whatever happened to starting them in ground work and ground driving before putting them under saddle? Plenty of the people in my area who break TB's for the track do all of that. Then again, there is a small percentage of horses who buck and throw themselves around like maniacs and go to a very talented cowboy in the area. One of the horses sent to him had excellent ground manners--she was just nearly impossible to ride. A friend watched him work her. The cowboy doesn't man-handle them, just toughs it out and manages to get some kind of lesson in with the horse each time he works it. That guy went from unknown to having a waiting list of difficult racehorses to break.

I couldn't even watch all of the "Tantrum" clip. One time the horse went down it went nose-in-the-dirt before the shoulder went down. I wonder if the guy also does chiropractic work, because the horses sure need it after he's done his under-saddle work! No thanks!! :no:

This is some of the most horrifying horse handling I've ever seen. It's absolutely disgusting. Somebody needs to drop that asshole in the dirt on his face a few times. :mad:

There is absolutely NO training, NO learning, and NO positive coming out of this abuse. None. In one video the abuser is riding a baby around his inside circle ring thing, and the horse is bucking. He's whipping the horse with his free hand every time the horse bucks. This continues for the entire 5 minute video.

This is a person who deserves to be attacked by one of these youngsters. I would just LOVE to see one of them snap and go after him. He deserves a dose of his own medicine.

[Auventera Two]

As I said before, I UNDERSTAND exactly what you are doing. Some cowboys knock a horse over. But you are MAKING HORSES PASS OUT.

I could see a VERY SMALL piece of merit in this for horses that were TRUELY rogues. But the horses in your videos are not doing ANYTHING wrong! They are high strung, green horses, that need simply to be trained. And what you are doing to them is ABUSIVE, period.

You knock over every single horse, just because you can. And the really scarey part is that you are so proud of it. There is a special place in hell for people that do things like this to defenseless animals.

That's exactly right. These are BABY THOROUGHBREDS for god's sake!!!!!!!!!!!! BABIES. They are not rogue beasts threatening the lives of humans. They are BABIES. You don't treat babies this way. Babies don't know anything. They are uneducated, and untrained. Babies are just BABIES. You are supposed to treat them with understanding, compassion, kindness, and patience. They are BABIES. I find your behavior absolutely loathsome and I sincerely hope that an animal rights organization slaps you with a big fine and shuts you down. This method does NOTHING more than exert dominance and fear over a helpless uneducated baby. The only purpose for this freak show is so you can get your big hard on from beating up on a baby. It's vile. :mad:

[Auventera Two]

Combine all the experience of the boards togther and you have 1000's of years experience yet not one person can do this the way I can..

Well that oughta give you a big fat clue right there! If you're the ONLY person that can knock a horse out to the ground like you do, then perhaps there's a problem. How many other REAL HORSEMEN AND WOMEN do you see making untrained green horses pass out and fall down on the ground as a training method? Only the most brutal of "rip 'em up cowboys" treat horses like this.

I reported your website and videos to the SPCA. Hopefully they will look into you and notify the proper authorities in your country.

[cosmos mom]

Are you GAY ? is that it ? you want my pink pants don't you ..

One might say something like "you suck" for a comment like this, although it might get them in trouble with the moderators. One might still be thinking it, anyway.

[abrant]

I have a 5 year old Lion Cavern gelding who will too....

LoL, cool ;) I have a friend coming over to do videos of my sales horses. I should make a video of Affable falling down... but I'd have to go somewhere and find a wand... I really think that is the only way I could properly do the cinemetography for that.

~Adrienne

[FairWeather]

PEOPLE! People people! Endo will not bless you with his presence unless you are a YOUTUBE PUBLISHED Videographer!

For this is what identifies you as a TRUE horseperson. DUH!

[tbtrailrider]

ummmmmmmmmm

i watched the videos- and i do break in horses - there are certain horses that ican see that would be a useful tool my yard owner at the top has spent good money on her mare to be broekn in and by a named proffesional -- not me another thats well known i anit-
and in the process this mare is also know as a killer horse as she knows every trick in the book this mare in 10 now owner has given up trying to break her in and shes not easy to handle either--

when that mare was a foal and i used to watch her runing around the famr with her mother i told top yard lady owner out of all the you bred to be show jumpers that one was gifted as she could turn herself inside out so easily and being a red mare has the name of red as shes red in charactor to- its the one horse me and debs would love to break in as she so lovely but owner has decided to just let her live her life as a field ornement as she just two dangerous even to the point of having her feet trimmed -- shes tbxwb and is 17,2hh big and chunky --

shes the olny one of the set of foals from her mother that isnt worked the others her 1/2 sister and 2 brothers do but not her
her mother died a few years ago

to me this mare would difnately beneifit that triaing as a tool -- to get her broken to saddle --or to handle the mare in a better frame of mind

and iam going to say something else to-- itts no different to people attaching a chain throught the mouth and across the top sset of teeth using the horses addrenerlin against itself to make it passive to control

i see plenty of tb trianiners on this site that do that - to us in uk thats known as the mexican twitch -- by ussing the lead rope attached to one side of head collar passing over the head and threading though the otherside and passing the chain under top lip and pressing on top teeth -- if you pull and addpressure to the end of the lead rope and hang on for 10 mins the horse then will start to sweat -- what happens is when you realse the pressure the horse is dopey -- and enough dopeyness to handle or break in depending on time of prssure on end of lead rope -- i see dealers use this trcik a lot with horses that are wild that come straight of the lorry --

i see this action being used to when controlling a horse there plenty of piccys on usa sites that have the chain under the lip-- and thats the reason of control --

some use the chain over the nose and that to is a meothod of control

in all of these circustances they are methods of a tool of how to control a horse some are severe some arnt -- i personally ask the horse in a polite manner if the horse has been brought up well the task is easy--

but if the horse is of that way of mind then the task is harder

to each of all of us how we do things how we act is how the horse re-acts-- but in some cases when ahorses is downright dangeerous and theres no reason to be - in health, equipement, abuse, or temprement etc
and you have tried everything in the book to get it to go forward then sometimes you have to look at something else --a tool is all hes say it is -- another method --good or bad one has to be opened minded as one day you might be put in a situation you cant handle and might just remeber what you saw and over come that sitiuation

i am of an open mind

Well, Bless Your Heart, Stink...for having such an open mind...but what this gobshite is doing is about as far from a freakin' lip chain as you can get.
I find it quite odd that you don't feel more appalled by this yahoo's antics...:confused:

[Auventera Two]

No kidding tbtrailrider - I agree. This is not even remotely close to putting a lip chain on a horse.

And please remember people - again - he's not dealing with crazy rogue animals with a taste for human blood. If he WERE, then yes, by all means, come hell or high water, fight that beast to the death to protect your own life, or else put the thing down.

But these are just normal, unbroken green TB babies headed for the race track. :cry: :( He brags that he can break out a baby in under an hour and prides himself on doing it quicker than he did last time.

I still want to know just EXACTLY what he's doing to these horses. In all the videos, you can see him excessively fussing with the horse's bit and mouth. He's always up in their face grabbing their lips, pulling on the bit, adjusting the bridle. I do wonder if he is injecting them with a chemical or inserting some sharp object in their gums, etc. The videos are just too blurry and dark to see exactly what he's doing, but I guarantee it's NOT normal horse training. He even brags on his website that he exploits the claustraphobic nature of horses by using it against them to drop them down to their knees in a matter of seconds. He also says on the site that putting a horse down on the ground is the only way to make sure the horse submits 100%. Damn, how disgusting.

[OakesBrae]

One attracts more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm sure he's not going to explain his methods to those who are outraged. If we can just ask the questions and ask him to explain WITHOUT the vitriol, I'm sure we'll get what it is that we want...

Which is...an explanation!

I want to know what it is that he's doing and why it seems to work. The chestnut filly in another video of his that I saw him do it to seemed unharmed and unaffected. She even walked through the starting gate and seemed unphased.

[FairWeather]

Oakes, charming thought but this guy doesnt work that way. He's Endo'd all over the internets with the same charm he has here ;)

[catknsn]

We were watching the clip with the chestnut horse last night and couldn't get past our first question, which was: doesn't that just look like a horse who needs to be turned out before riding is attempted...um, duh?

An amazing amount of time and effort is spent on trying to "fix" behaviors that a good 15 minute romp around the indoor arena or a big dry turnout would fix. And you don't need a trainer/guru/magician for that!

[OakesBrae]

I dunno, I thought I was having quite a civil conversation with him about the bay filly.

I didn't mean the chestnut colt, but the chestnut filly, which was a different video. He got up on her bareback after using the maneuver and then rode her around the starting gate.

[lstevenson]

For those of you who want to know what he is doing, here is an excerpt from his website. He is pinching the Vagus nerve which stops blood pressure to the brain, which makes the horse pass out. Those horses which are just laying there, physically can't move.

----------------------

"The “Half-Tap” works because turning a horses head, lowers the horse’s blood pressure leaving them in a sleepy or dozed state which gives you a chance to do certain tasks that would normally be impossible with the horse in full consciousness.

The “Full-Tap” uses a natural process of physics and a bit of “Mind over Matter” psychology to shut down the horse’s body senses rendering the horse lying in a relaxed state at your feet in seconds."

[OakesBrae]

The “Full-Tap” uses a natural process of physics and a bit of “Mind over Matter” psychology to shut down the horse’s body senses rendering the horse lying in a relaxed state at your feet in seconds."

This doesn't sound much like an explanation that I understand, it sounds a bit like marketing lingo to me. Which is why I wanted a real explanation. What is the horse doing when it's down - is it relaxed and conscious? Is it relaxed and unconscious?

[lstevenson]

This doesn't sound much like an explanation that I understand, it sounds a bit like marketing lingo to me. Which is why I wanted a real explanation. What is the horse doing when it's down - is it relaxed and conscious? Is it relaxed and unconscious?


I believe they are only semi conscious mentally, but after passing out it takes a little while before they can really move, depending on how long and hard the nerve was pressed, and how sensitive the horse is to the nerve being pressed.

That one chestnut horse layed there for a longggggg time flat out seemingly close to unconscious. He certainly wasn't laying there because he was so happy and comfortable with his trainer!;)

[Auventera Two]

Where is this nerve located? I am very suspicious of how much he futzes with the mouth.

Anybody who would do this to a baby, green horse reminds me of the same kind of person that would give date rate drugs to their prom date.

[caffeinated]

This doesn't sound much like an explanation that I understand, it sounds a bit like marketing lingo to me. Which is why I wanted a real explanation. What is the horse doing when it's down - is it relaxed and conscious? Is it relaxed and unconscious?

My experience with Mr. Endo is that a real explanation is hard to come by, though you may get a "clue" or be told when you are "warm"

[Auventera Two]

Real horse trainers don't make their methods big mysterious secrets because they aren't doing something "questionable." Instead they try to help people, they share the knowledge, and use tried/true methods. This man's desire to keep this such a big secret is further proof that he's abusing these horses.

[SuperSTB]

I've seen way more commonly used 'training' antics and gadgets that are way more frightening to watch- some purported by NH-ers too.

He did say that it's not a training method too but a tool to use if it's needed so I give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

Unfortunetly we're presented with a host of videos all doing pretty much the same thing and he doesn't tell us what he does *before* utilizing 'the tap' either except for the tidbits posted here. So he's not really representing himself all too well either.

Like I said I would rather see a more complete picture, veterinarian evaluation, and long term results before rendering this technique a complete waste or truly inhumane.

[A. P.]

My question about this is the same as my question about 'Join Up": OK, so the horse went down/joined up... what does that get you? Does the horse become more compliant or respectful? does it facilitate learning?

What is the benefit other then putting the horse on the ground?

What are the lasting effects once the horse gets back up?

[Auventera Two]

I think you can see the lasting effects in the videos. The horses continue to buck, bolt, and lay down again. Or stop and completely refuse to move forward. In one of the videos he whips a baby with a crop because she won't take a single step forward. Well, why the hell would she? She's only rewarded with more yahoo macho behavior. She's never rewarded with tact, kindness, and understanding.

In one video, he is standing over a horse beating and kicking it to get it up. Then the camera shuts off, and when it comes back on again, the horse is up and he's riding it.

Um - ok - so what exactly happened when the camera was off??????

[tbtrailrider]

LoL, cool ;) I have a friend coming over to do videos of my sales horses. I should make a video of Affable falling down... but I'd have to go somewhere and find a wand... I really think that is the only way I could properly do the cinemetography for that.

~Adrienne
We should compile a video....does your horse get a stupid look on his face when he does it?

[endorphins4u]

For those of you who want to know what he is doing, here is an excerpt from his website. He is pinching the Vagus nerve which stops blood pressure to the brain, which makes the horse pass out. Those horses which are just laying there, physically can't move.

."

Of corse they can move stephen..they can get up anytime they want..

I'm not going to explain what happening to amatuers that bash..

You are guessing because you dont know..

Explain the rouge busters stephen...the horses head isn't turned..

You know alls for once are out of your league here ...stop wasting my time..

I get PM's all the time from genuine horse people that wanna know how someone my size can drop a horse is seconds because everything else has failed and they need help..

I also get a lot of PM's telling me to ingorne you bashers because you do this to everyone that threatens your turf and they are embarrased to be on the same board as the quote "loser's"..

Oh and if you know how this is done and whats happening....mabey you can show us ? It should be easy for the experts ..lets see you do it..

I challenge any of you to show me that you can do this without my help..

Don't make excuses that you would treat horses like this, the horses are relaxed and eat grass remeber ..no stress at all

Two Simple...I can't call you names because yours is perfect the way it is..

[abrant]

We should compile a video....does your horse get a stupid look on his face when he does it?

YES. LoL.

In response to the challenge, we will do a video tomorrow.

Then *I* can be the reigning queeeeeeen of horse behavior ;)

~Adrienne

[goeslikestink]

ok-- you asked why its no diffrence to a lip chain-- it isnt honest it isnt

you can drop a horse on a lip chain the same way -- and if you say to me you cant then you can --

a normal twitch is to hold the top lip and if a vet there is done by a matel to twitch to grab hold of top lip the horse goes dopey --

but a mexican twitch - or top lip chain as you ccall it - chain is on he top of gums pull hard and wait till sweats appear on its neck normally about 10-mins or so dont let go -- just tug harder more sweet appears the addreline rushes through the horse same as a clamp via vet say on top lip but this on his top gums inside the mouth a pressure point horse if you hold on long enough will sleep as in sleep and drop to the floor---
this how some bad dealers do the breaking in of a over hairy coblett thats boulshy -- like as not had anything done to it until it arrived in yard so this how they break them in -- the chain leaves marks inside the mouth and brisuing -- and can becuase its so sore cant bit it well beleive me i have seen it - so this guy sues a method the same but diffrently as there are other pressue points -- vagal being one -- but another is the girth area which i knew anyways --

so horse drops -- both methods do the same thing -- and both can be servere to the horse --as you say but if the horse was being a s---- and it was your life or his and you had tried everything else then you would try another method --

another method a well known trainer over here has a rope thingy when ahorse says rears he uses it to slap the underneath of the horse--

now i keep an open mind as long as the methods are used in right context i havent a problem - but used in the worng one as abuse i have

it doesnt shock me becuase i have seen a lot worse than that what people do to horses nothing i can do about how some does things if i anit there
hence why i say i keep an open mind -- learn all knowledge of the horse then when a situation comes up or you can use it as a tool like as in very rare if any-- or if someone does things then you are there to decide to choose
which way to go --
the thing that wwould worry me is the same as a horse would rear it has to back up normally to take a step backwards to go up unless like old man fogi no warning -- but would it lay down if it felt like it same as a rear then that would worry me --- as horse going down is just as bad as one going up

it doesnt shock me is what i meant -- as i understand full well how he does things -- oh and if you dont beleive me with lip chain on top gums then try it -- see what happens to your horse once you have yanked hard and pulled and hold onto that pull downwards -- your horse will sweat and sleep

[goeslikestink]

i give you a for instance -- little azar when he was a colt got coltish and somehow got in with gracie and ollie he didnt bargain on ollie protecting gracie when wwe got him out the feild he was cut on 3 fo his legs but was a git to hold as wouldnt let us touch him - so we dont use a chain we use a rope not often we do this in fact its rare - but we use the leadrope the same way as a chain and held onto him for 10mins didnt want to do it to much as the longer you hold the more dopey they get -- we did enought to make him sleepy- so we could have a good look at what he had done and to clean his wounds and dress them or to call avet if they were to deep but they wasnt most was superfiscal with one being deeper than the rest on his knee so we cut away the hair cleaned it up and poutice it as altho looked really bad i could cope with it without a vet -- and we kept him in for a couple days until it healed as it was on the joint-- pouticing every day with out the twitch ws just that 1st day as he didnt know what to expect and was touchy-- in that instance it benifted him-- so we could see what he had done --

[Queen Latisha]

I'm not going to explain what happening to amatuers that bash..



I challenge any of you to show me that you can do this without my help..



Well we all know it has nothing to do with endorphins.:D

[endorphins4u]

Well we all know it has nothing to do with endorphins.:D

When on this board did I mention anything about endorphins?

Show me the quote..

[Queen Latisha]

When on this board did I mention anything about endorphins?

Show me the quote..


Ahh Pinky, you are now changing your story. When you first started posting (on other BBs), it was the release of endorphins that caused the horse to fall down. Are now you telling us, it's not about the endorphins?:D

[endorphins4u]

Ok..Lets have a look at this with REAL WORLD eyes...

In the Peter Pan COTH world...kicking and using the whip is called ABUSE..

In the REAL WORLD..

Owner's send horses to trainers and when a trainer runs into trouble and is out of options, doesn't send it to another trainer..

He rings the owner and tells him progressing with the horse would only be a waste of money and then in a REAL WORLD the horse is off to the slaughter house..

Now I don't know many trainers or riders that would have given that horse as many chances as I did..

OPEN YOUR EYES...

N/H trainers use ropes, Monty uses a custom WAR BRIDLE and I lay a horse down with nothing more than a bridle and you people call it ABUSE...

This would have to be the most ludicrous horse board on the net...I aint never leavin this place..

[endorphins4u]

Ahh Pinky, you are now changing your story. When you first started posting (on other BBs), it was the release of endorphins that caused the horse to fall down. Are now you telling us, it's not about the endorphins?:D

It's my story...I can change it as many times as I want. I'm not selling anything..

Like you said other boards..

I stopped using the endorphin theory until I can get proof to back it up which is easy said then done but I'm trying..

It's was an educated guess like Stevey baby here is making which can he the right to change when he finds his wrong..

This is the internet...all rules are out the window..

[Pony Fixer]

Wow. So I will admit that I have not read all 8 pages. And I assume that Endo4u is the guy in the vid?

I learned how to lay a horse down like this in vet school. Well, not exactly like this, but with a long lead rope that went over the withers, then between the legs (I can't quite remember, it was a long time ago, and I have never had the need for application--I was impressed, though, as even the smallest of us could gently lay down a big horse with little to no force, and the horses all went down without a fight).

I'm gonna assume it works on the same principles (or insert semantic here). Not sure how it would make an unruly horse mind, tho. Bottom line is no one got hurt--people or horses. In my job, I would just whip out the rompun/ketamine....

[tbtrailrider]

ok-- you asked why its no diffrence to a lip chain-- it isnt honest it isnt

you can drop a horse on a lip chain the same way -- and if you say to me you cant then you can --

a normal twitch is to hold the top lip and if a vet there is done by a matel to twitch to grab hold of top lip the horse goes dopey --

but a mexican twitch - or top lip chain as you ccall it - chain is on he top of gums pull hard and wait till sweats appear on its neck normally about 10-mins or so dont let go -- just tug harder more sweet appears the addreline rushes through the horse same as a clamp via vet say on top lip but this on his top gums inside the mouth a pressure point horse if you hold on long enough will sleep as in sleep and drop to the floor---
this how some bad dealers do the breaking in of a over hairy coblett thats boulshy -- like as not had anything done to it until it arrived in yard so this how they break them in -- the chain leaves marks inside the mouth and brisuing -- and can becuase its so sore cant bit it well beleive me i have seen it - so this guy sues a method the same but diffrently as there are other pressue points -- vagal being one -- but another is the girth area which i knew anyways --

so horse drops -- both methods do the same thing -- and both can be servere to the horse --as you say but if the horse was being a s---- and it was your life or his and you had tried everything else then you would try another method --

another method a well known trainer over here has a rope thingy when ahorse says rears he uses it to slap the underneath of the horse--

now i keep an open mind as long as the methods are used in right context i havent a problem - but used in the worng one as abuse i have

it doesnt shock me becuase i have seen a lot worse than that what people do to horses nothing i can do about how some does things if i anit there
hence why i say i keep an open mind -- learn all knowledge of the horse then when a situation comes up or you can use it as a tool like as in very rare if any-- or if someone does things then you are there to decide to choose
which way to go --
the thing that wwould worry me is the same as a horse would rear it has to back up normally to take a step backwards to go up unless like old man fogi no warning -- but would it lay down if it felt like it same as a rear then that would worry me --- as horse going down is just as bad as one going up

it doesnt shock me is what i meant -- as i understand full well how he does things -- oh and if you dont beleive me with lip chain on top gums then try it -- see what happens to your horse once you have yanked hard and pulled and hold onto that pull downwards -- your horse will sweat and sleep

Being an old fart and having worked almost exclusively with thoroughbreds...and yearlings at that ...I am no stranger to a lip chain..or a shoulder hold ...or grabbing an ear...or grabbing a foals tail and giving it a push up....but in Kentucky, with TBs, we only use something like that in an emergency basis for vetting or trimming , and we never, I repeat never twitch or chain a horse so hard and so long that they collapse. We hurry to get the job done while the horse is subdued...mostly because a TB will flat kick your ass into next week if they want to whether you have a twitch or lip chain or what.. I have known horses that there would be no way in hell he could lay down. Mare by Storm Cat,,name of Spring Pitch comes to mind. We back our horses proper...when I "broke"babies at Jonabell back in the early 80's we were in a paddock walking by ourselves under tack in a week. jogging a week later in a big field.
i feel this character uses this technique too freely and apparently with any horse he comes in contact with...when it could be done the right way.

[tbtrailrider]

This is the internet...all rules are out the window..
Au contraire,my friend...there are rules on the internet..

[tbtrailrider]

This would have to be the most ludicrous horse board on the net...I aint never leavin this place..


Don't bet on it sweety...;) stranger things have happened...people disappear all the time....Mwuhahaha:D

[MySparrow]

All bashing aside, I would like to make an observation.

I have a young friend who from birth has suffered from vasophagia -- under certain kinds of stress her own body creates in her the effect that this "endorphin tap" idea supposedly creates in horses. I have watched her for years struggling to control it. At age 11 she finally got so that she could prevent the attacks and stay conscious. It was a victory we still celebrate six years later.

Why? Because the attacks were an horrific experience for her.

To those of us watching she seemed simply to fall asleep, or "zone out". It was scary because we knew it wasn't normal, but it looked peaceful, just like the chestnut colt in the video.

But when she became verbal she was able to tell us just how terrifying those episodes were. She could not really interpret the sounds and movements around her, couldn't place herself, couldn't move. And yet she was conscious enough to know that something was terribly, terribly wrong.

Having this first-hand report of the impact of the vaso response shown on that video tape, I would personally not choose to subject any but the most deadly animal to such torture.

[hundredacres]

All bashing aside, I would like to make an observation.

I have a young friend who from birth has suffered from vasophagia -- under certain kinds of stress her own body creates in her the effect that this "endorphin tap" idea supposedly creates in horses. I have watched her for years struggling to control it. At age 11 she finally got so that she could prevent the attacks and stay conscious. It was a victory we still celebrate six years later.

Why? Because the attacks were an horrific experience for her.

To those of us watching she seemed simply to fall asleep, or "zone out". It was scary because we knew it wasn't normal, but it looked peaceful, just like the chestnut colt in the video.

But when she became verbal she was able to tell us just how terrifying those episodes were. She could not really interpret the sounds and movements around her, couldn't place herself, couldn't move. And yet she was conscious enough to know that something was terribly, terribly wrong.

Having this first-hand report of the impact of the vaso response shown on that video tape, I would personally not choose to subject any but the most deadly animal to such torture.

Curious about this analogy (not ripping or flaming...just asking...)...do animals have the same intellectual response in this case? As humans, we can ascertain when we aren't functioning properly...do animals have that ability? I'm thinking the answer is, "intellectually, no". I am not 100% but I'm thinking that do not have the ability to reason the way that we would when we aren't feeling well. Horses certainly don't "know" they aren't right, they just continue to function within the realms of nature and instinct....correct?

I remember when I was 9 months pregnant and I'd feel like I would pass out if I laid on my back for too long. Is this the same feeling we're talking about here?

[Kementari]

Kicking and smacking a horse is not abuse (unless carried to an extreme). I don't know anyone who doesn't do both of those things when necessary. I actually don't even think that the kicking and smacking shown in the video were, in and of themselves, abuse.

What is abusive is pushing a horse beyond its limits when it has clearly shown you what those limits are. What is abusive is punishing a horse for not understanding what it is supposed to do. And what is abusive is hitting and kicking a horse over and over and over again because you are not a good enough horseman to come up with another solution to the problem. :no:

Some of us would rather train a horse CORRECTLY than train it QUICKLY. And while it may take me much longer to get a horse to walk/trot/canter, I am completely confident that, in the long term, my horse will be a happier, healthier, better-trained citizen than any horse trained using insensitive domination techniques. :yes:

Actually, watching the video with the bay filly, the first thing that came to mind was that old quip about the definition of insanity: trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. :lol:

[MistyBlue]

Curious about this analogy (not ripping or flaming...just asking...)...do animals have the same intellectual response in this case? As humans, we can ascertain when we aren't functioning properly...do animals have that ability? I'm thinking the answer is, "intellectually, no". I am not 100% but I'm thinking that do not have the ability to reason the way that we would when we aren't feeling well. Horses certainly don't "know" they aren't right, they just continue to function within the realms of nature and instinct....correct?

I remember when I was 9 months pregnant and I'd feel like I would pass out if I laid on my back for too long. Is this the same feeling we're talking about here?

Good questions. I don;t think we'll ever know for certain how many animals think or what they can and can't comprehend on some level.
Do they know if they aren't currently functioning properly? Yes, I do think they know when something isn't quite right. Can they reason ahead of time for things like that? My opinion is...unless it's a chronic something that always has the same trigger to start it, probably not. I don't think they reason that "if this person does this...then I'll feel that." But if this person does this often enough, they do connect cause and affect when it's immediate results. However for something without immediate affects like overeating rich foods and getting colic...my answer would be no, they can't make that connection. If a horse gets into a feed room, overeats grain and colics from it a short time later...the next time it gets out (even if a day or two later) they won't make the connection with overeating and colic and still overeat. The affect doesn't happen often enough or immediate enough would be my guess.

[lstevenson]

Because the attacks were an horrific experience for her.

To those of us watching she seemed simply to fall asleep, or "zone out". It was scary because we knew it wasn't normal, but it looked peaceful, just like the chestnut colt in the video.

But when she became verbal she was able to tell us just how terrifying those episodes were. She could not really interpret the sounds and movements around her, couldn't place herself, couldn't move. And yet she was conscious enough to know that something was terribly, terribly wrong.



And that's exactly what this Wack-job is ploying people with. Look how calm and peaceful they are when they are down. :rolleyes:

[summerhorse]

Be kind of interesting to see someone try this approach with a horse like hmmm Dynaformer or Halo or In Tissar or Seeking The Gold. Course they better be quick, cause they'd only have that one chance to TRY! =)

None of those horses in those videos were rogues. They don't even seem to be anything more than babies with little training. If they were rogues they wouldn't be so tolerant of that rider or his "methods".

Now those stallions above? They'd just kill a stranger before he got a chance to go beyond TOUCHING their mouths or necks. Of course their own handlers can handle them because they have been trained and know their limits.

[MacknCody]

Wait I have a question. In the "tantrum" video: it says that the horse is doing the laying down and you aren't, fine I can see that but if its misbehaving....why are you petting it? If the horse lays down and gets petted for it, duh it'll do it every time. And then when she lays down you just sit there...... you don't do anything to stop her from laying down(or you don't know how) then she lays down and you sit there letting her stop working and thus rewarding her. then she gets up and you proceed to "try" to get her to walk forward-you give her some kicks sporatically and then stop....then whack her with the crop....then bend her and pet her..... Boy, you need to take some beginner lessons. pronto

Meanwhile your other videos only further increased my desire that if I ever decide to train with another trainer again to search for someone for my boys verrrrryyy carefully(even more so now) and never let you knew them. My god what does your vet say?

thats it I'm done, someone with more patience with idiots can finish this.

[endorphins4u]

Be kind of interesting to see someone try this approach with a horse like hmmm Dynaformer or Halo or In Tissar or Seeking The Gold. Course they better be quick, cause they'd only have that one chance to TRY! =)

None of those horses in those videos were rogues. They don't even seem to be anything more than babies with little training. If they were rogues they wouldn't be so tolerant of that rider or his "methods".

Now those stallions above? They'd just kill a stranger before he got a chance to go beyond TOUCHING their mouths or necks. Of course their own handlers can handle them because they have been trained and know their limits.

It's only because there are no rogues here..that chestnut was the worst I could find..

Rogues get shot because they are to hard to handle...

[Coup De Des]

lol Endo.. You are so dead on here...

Most people on COTH think that you can cure all with kisses.

:)

Best to cut your losses and move on.

[Coup De Des]

I reported your website and videos to the SPCA. Hopefully they will look into you and notify the proper authorities in your country.


Honey... They EAT horses in his country. :lol: They might take those horses away from him.... and EAT THEM! :lol:

[endorphins4u]

Honey... They EAT horses in his country. :lol: They might take those horses away from him.... and EAT THEM! :lol:

No need to worry bout that now...she's gone

Lets say I came to my senses and did what a normal trainer would do with a horse like this..she didn't have the conformation of a racehorse anyway..

[Coup De Des]

No need to worry bout that now...she's gone

Lets say I came to my senses and did what a normal trainer would do with a horse like this..she didn't have the conformation of a racehorse anyway..

LOL!!!

You are just baiting them now! So harsh.

[hitchinmygetalong]

endo, I have two serious questions for you, please:

1. How did you learn of this method?
2. If it is safe and humane, in your opinion, why don't more people use it?

[tbtrailrider]

lol Endo.. You are so dead on here...

Most people on COTH think that you can cure all with kisses.

:)

Best to cut your losses and move on.
This comes from someone who supposedly is kind enough to donate money to help a horse in pain?..Geez...Coup, you are a piece of work.:rolleyes:

[caffeinated]

I'm not a butterflies and kisses sort of person... been known to get after horses with whips, brooms, and whatever is handy.

I just wonder about how effective it really is to make a horse faint (and I think that we have established that this is what's going on- and I was in fact shown how to do this last night). I didn't make my horse faint before I got on him the first time, and he was perfectly fine, even with neighbors setting off firecrackers.

I can see some applications of it, the main problem is endo's attitude and presentation. If you don't like the technique, obviously you are an amateur idiot. And if you don't have internet videos of yourself, you probably have never ridden and don't know the front end of a horse from the back. A little humility can go a long way, IMO.

and honestly- coup, have you followed him around on other BBs as well? Because I swear this guy always shows up with a small troupe of adoring cooing women who like to tell him how right and funny he really is, and it's just a very strange phenomenon.

[Auventera Two]

The videos clearly show nothing more than a 3 ring freak show with some uneducated wannabe trying to macho muscle his way on top of baby Thoroughbreds. The videos are for the intent of shock and awe - NOT horse training. Not even a fool would "train" an unbroken, bucking baby by whipping it with a crop and slinging his arm around like a wild west cowboy atop a savage bull. It is blatantly obvious that this dude gets his rocks off by beating young horses. And YES, IT IS BEATING.

I've given them a good whip crack on the shoulder for striking, or something. But they don't get hit over and over and over like this guy does.

When you whip a horse for something they completely do not understand, you can switch their brain right off. And that is very obvious in some of these videos. These babies just mentally shut down because they cannot taking the whipping. They don't know what to do, where to go, where to turn. So they just stand there - or they throw themself down on the ground. This isn't a single swift crack on the ass for misbehaving (which I completely support!!) This is a full-arm beating over and over and over again coupled with legs slamming hard against the sides when a baby doesn't know to go forward. Not a squeeze or even a little kick with the heel - but legs pulled out away from the sides and WHAM right in the ribs with both legs as hard as he can. Duh, you idiot.

You have to TRAIN a horse to move forward from the leg. NOT beat and kick them. :mad: That is abuse. And yes, I've kicked my own horse before for ignoring me. But that's because she has already been fully trained - for the last 12 years - on how to move forward. But again - these are untrained babies who don't know the first thing about riding. Horses aren't born knowing to move forward when you squeeze them. It has to be TRAINED.

But apparently you know so LITTLE about horse training, that as someone else pointed out - you first whip a horse to make it go forward. It just stands there, so you pet it. Then you whip it again. Then you slam your heels in the sides, then you pet it. Hello??? Are you really that dumb? You have no business touching horses at all. None. You don't know the first thing about training a horse. You don't train a horse by whipping it and then petting it - for doing the EXACT SAME THING - standing there. :rolleyes:

[Coup De Des]

heh. Sarcasm much anyone?

In all honesty, I think making horses faint/pass out/have epilleptic fits/poop butterflies in order to train or cure them is a load of absolute hogwash! It's rubbish. It's just crap.

anyway going to bed now, will finish up later!

[caffeinated]

My sarcasm meter must be turned off, have not had coffee yet.

It's true though, in at least two of his appearances there have been fawners. It's a mystery to me.

[Auventera Two]

I think some women get swept away at any man willing to do anything with a horse. Women are a sucker for horse MEN. I have a friend who absolutely pawns over Pat Parelli. She adores him. She thinks he's the greatest horseman on the planet, and she thinks he's cute, funny, smart, and is soooooooo fantastic with the horses. (puke.) I don't get that either.
On another board I used to post at, there was a cowboy guy there that did everything just backwards and stupid. But all the women luuuuuved him. I remember him bragging about how he bucked out this 2 year old mare for another girl on the forum. He said he used a rope to tie her head to the stirrup, and put her in the round pen. Once she tried to jump out of the round pen, but he just kept spurring her on forward and galloped her in the round pen until she was so exhausted, she COULDN'T buck anymore. He bragged himself up that he "broke her in one day."

Um.....now.......if one of us WOMEN posted that we did that, it would be a nasty cat fight. But since the sexy cowboy did it - it's okay. And then you skip to another thread to see a barrel racing woman getting ripped to shreds because she mentioned her horse running into the exit gate during a training session. They told her she was uneducated, abusive, had no business handling horses, etc. So I've seen this happen before, and it's pretty disgusting.

[A. P.]

I can see that this method might have it's uses, in extreme cases: but you have not answered my very sincere question: You put the horse down... and? Does he get upo and start miding his manners? What does it buy you?

As I said before, your site reminds me of the Monty Roberts technique, and leaves me the sqame question: after the Tap/Join-up..... what? What is the effect of doing this???

[Arctic Cielo]

Forgive me if it has been mentioned...but I did not have time to read through all of the posts.
This reminds me alot of Magner's Encyclopedia of the Horse. It is a guy back from the 1800's that wrote books on training horses. It is very similar to this method, and actually he invented bridles out of ropes for hard to handle, nasty horses. I think they were called "war bridles". They simply looped the rope through their mouth and over the poll, so when he pulled on the rope it would bring the horses head in or something of that nature. I don't have a bad horse like this so I don't use these methods. He claims to have helped a lot of horses especially ones pulling carts. Back in the 1800's people were more ignorant about horses and their training, so I can see how a horse could become mean when someone mistreated it.
Horses don't get that way on their own, most of the time its some person some where did something to that horse.
I agree it does seem harsh, but its better to do that than for the horse to get killed or kill someone else while it is being dangerous. Untrained, unmanageable horses are the ones that get sent to slaughter (and good ones too:cry: )
But I reccomend Magner's book for reading. It is very interesting to see how things were back in the day.

[matryoshka]

If you people knew half of what you were talking about you wouldn't hanging around a horse board..

Where are your movies ? you say you have nothing to prove ? You have if you want my respect because I have got the gonads to post stuff I know people will attack because there are also people that are watching and learning...

Those who bash something they don't understand are pathethic..you are the ugly side of the internet...
Those who disagree with your method are idiots? :lol: :lol: :lol: And you call others the "ugly side of the internet?" I don't care about your gonads or anything else, nor do I want your respect. If we are such uninformed morons, why even take the time to defend your videos? According to you, we aren't worth your time.

And people, like horses, are always learning something. The question is whether it is a good lesson or a bad one. :no:

[Queen Latisha]

It's my story...I can change it as many times as I want. I'm not selling anything..

Like you said other boards..

I stopped using the endorphin theory until I can get proof to back it up which is easy said then done but I'm trying..

It's was an educated guess like Stevey baby here is making which can he the right to change when he finds his wrong..

This is the Internet...all rules are out the window..

Educated guess....... so you really don't know how this works? :eek:
BTW, just because it's the Internet, rules [I]do not[I] go out the window. I think you know exactly how your method works, but you can't come out and say it......I wonder why?

[BLBGP]

Be kind of interesting to see someone try this approach with a horse like hmmm Dynaformer or Halo or In Tissar or Seeking The Gold. Course they better be quick, cause they'd only have that one chance to TRY! =)

None of those horses in those videos were rogues. They don't even seem to be anything more than babies with little training. If they were rogues they wouldn't be so tolerant of that rider or his "methods".

Now those stallions above? They'd just kill a stranger before he got a chance to go beyond TOUCHING their mouths or necks. Of course their own handlers can handle them because they have been trained and know their limits.

Wouldn't happen, because apparently those ones get shot.

I do wonder what the guy would do with a true "rogue" horse and not just a scared, untrained baby who doesn't know what anything means yet.

[kookicat]

This is EXTREMELY disturbing. :mad:
What I absolutely HATE is that after all this "laying down" the horse is completely lame in the hindquarters. :no: It's just sickening.

I spotted that too- poor baby! :cry: I can't even watch the other vids. :no:

[endorphins4u]

Educated guess....... so you really don't know how this works? :eek:
BTW, just because it's the Internet, rules [i]do not[i] go out the window. I think you know exactly how your method works, but you can't come out and say it......I wonder why?

Because it's my trump card..

Like I said 1000's of years of combined experience and not one person has seen it done like this before..

I'm definately not gonna show my cards to an amatuer board like this..

The OP was reaching out to this boards "Knowedgeable" ones for a seconds opinion and because they were baffled they bashed ..


Like I said, If you were good you wouldn't be here..

[endorphins4u]

endo, I have two serious questions for you, please:

1. How did you learn of this method?
2. If it is safe and humane, in your opinion, why don't more people use it?


1) On a rearer..

2) It's safe and very humane compaired to other ways of bring a horse down..

People don't use it because they don't know about it..they have seen it many times before but thought nothing of it..

[endorphins4u]

I'm not a butterflies and kisses sort of person... been known to get after horses with whips, brooms, and whatever is handy.

I just wonder about how effective it really is to make a horse faint (and I think that we have established that this is what's going on- and I was in fact shown how to do this last night). I didn't make my horse faint before I got on him the first time, and he was perfectly fine, even with neighbors setting off firecrackers.

I can see some applications of it, the main problem is endo's attitude and presentation. If you don't like the technique, obviously you are an amateur idiot. And if you don't have internet videos of yourself, you probably have never ridden and don't know the front end of a horse from the back. A little humility can go a long way, IMO.

and honestly- coup, have you followed him around on other BBs as well? Because I swear this guy always shows up with a small troupe of adoring cooing women who like to tell him how right and funny he really is, and it's just a very strange phenomenon.

Who every said to do this on a regular basis ?

Use it when you need it ...and you people are only looking at the Full-tap which is for the EXPERIENCED...the half-tap is much handy to know for small jobs like worming and stopping your horse walking off when mounting which is a common problem.. ..

Attitude ? I was being bashed from the start..

If you are following me around, you should know I'm only on two boards..any other threads on boards were started like this one, someone asking the so called "KNOWEDGEABLE" instead of coming to me about this..

[endorphins4u]

heh. Sarcasm much anyone?

In all honesty, I think making horses faint/pass out/have epilleptic fits/poop butterflies in order to train or cure them is a load of absolute hogwash! It's rubbish. It's just crap.

anyway going to bed now, will finish up later!

If it was hogwash, this would have been locked long ago...these threads stay open because this is educational...

[A. P.]

I find it interesting that endorphins4u (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=87284) can't answer my very simple question: what good does this technique do? Once he has been 'tapped' is he more compliant? Calmer? Submissive? Less likely to act up?

Or is it simply a method for putting a horse on the ground.... not something I have ever needed.....

[endorphins4u]

I find it interesting that endorphins4u (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=87284) can't answer my very simple question: what good does this technique do? Once he has been 'tapped' is he more compliant? Calmer? Submissive? Less likely to act up?

Or is it simply a method for putting a horse on the ground.... not something I have ever needed.....
I'm trying to catch up here..

Yes they are more compliant because and calmer because they just realised they aren't stronger then us and we could put them in their place anytime which you sometimes need with an animal 8-10 times our body weight....

If they are on the ground, they have given up you own them. It's up to you how you wanna cash in on this opportunity..

[~Freedom~]

Once he has been 'tapped' is he more compliant? Calmer? Submissive? Less likely to act up?

Or is it simply a method for putting a horse on the ground.... not something I have ever needed.....

If I remember correctly didn't the star of the movie "The Horse Whisperer" put down Pilgrim much the same as the first video except there was harsher use of ropes. Didn't he sit on the horse like in the first video ( haven't looked at the other videos). When Pilgrim was released the crippled girl was able to mount and ride the horse, something she could not do just a short time earlier. I am assuming the reason is because the horse was shown that it was useless to fight?

[summerhorse]

Wouldn't happen, because apparently those ones get shot.

I do wonder what the guy would do with a true "rogue" horse and not just a scared, untrained baby who doesn't know what anything means yet.


He'd get killed. LOL and isn't it funny that none of those very rogue stallions listed were or have been shot! (Not at their stud fees!) But their handlers manage to get them in and out without making them pass out either. AMAZING! So I guess those stud handlers are TRULY the be all and end all of trainers... 8-D

[Sandy M]

He'd get killed. LOL and isn't it funny that none of those very rogue stallions listed were or have been shot! (Not at their stud fees!) But their handlers manage to get them in and out without making them pass out either. AMAZING! So I guess those stud handlers are TRULY the be all and end all of trainers... 8-D

And isn't it amazing that you and I and most of the people on this board can worm or mount or do any number of procedures or actions with our horses without the help of this marvelous technique? Despite the fact that we're idiots.

[kookicat]

And isn't it amazing that you and I and most of the people on this board can worm or mount or do any number of procedures or actions with our horses without the help of this marvelous technique? Despite the fact that we're idiots.

It really is! My horses stand to be wormed, stand to be mounted, and walk quietly. I've never had to lay a horse down. Does that make me an idiot? :winkgrin:

Well, by his standard, I'd rather be an idiot ....

[summerhorse]

It really is! My horses stand to be wormed, stand to be mounted, and walk quietly. I've never had to lay a horse down. Does that make me an idiot? :winkgrin:

Well, by his standard, I'd rather be an idiot than a wonderful trainer like him.

That's true! I guess WE are the end all of trainers too then. I can do all that stuff without a halter on! And she didn't come to me that way EITHER... 8-D Man we should all hang out shingles...

[Sandy M]

That's true! I guess WE are the end all of trainers too then. I can do all that stuff without a halter on! And she didn't come to me that way EITHER... 8-D Man we should all hang out shingles...

Actually, my roomie, who's primarily a pleasure rider, should be the one: She took a straight out of pasture, never ridden 4 year old stoutly built 3/4 Arab colt and started him under saddle in GOLDEN GATE PARK without any incident. Within a year or so he would do things like walk on abandoned mattresses, etc. without qualms. And believe me, there were as many, if not more distractions at GGP than at any race track, let alone a quiet round pen. And wonder of wonders, she never had to lay him down! Amazing! I worked as a summer student for a woman who started horses for the track (when she wasn't eventing or showing jumpers) and wonder of wonders, SHE never had to lay them down either.

[summerhorse]

If I remember correctly didn't the star of the movie "The Horse Whisperer" put down Pilgrim much the same as the first video except there was harsher use of ropes. Didn't he sit on the horse like in the first video ( haven't looked at the other videos). When Pilgrim was released the crippled girl was able to mount and ride the horse, something she could not do just a short time earlier. I am assuming the reason is because the horse was shown that it was useless to fight?


GOD I hated that scene! At the time everyone thought it was Monty Roberts was the horse whisperer the guy based it on (actually I think it may have been a movie horse trainer but I don't remember) and he (Monty) was interviewed and well he had nothing nice to say about that scene (or the movie either I don't think). The whole movie was ridiculous, it was almost like someone went out of their way to make a movie where it showed you the opposite of what to do with a spoiled horse (although that horse was a traumatized horse not spoiled but either way). And of course you'd NEVER stick a terrified girl (did she even wear a helmet?) on a horse like that when you apparently have so little control (LOL or talent) that you just had to put him on the ground "to show him whose boss".

You wouldn't put ME on that horse either. Let the cowboy die instead. He may be fine that minute but certainly no guarantee he'll be fine in 20 minutes or the next day. he might be really PO'ed though... 8-D

[YoungFilly]

Everything looks poetic to the naive...

I can show you poetic too but it wouldn't be real..


There is something seriously wrong with you, that you actually think your "helping" the horses in these videos. This is absolutely horrible. What a disgrace. :no:

[endorphins4u]

There is something seriously wrong with you, that you actually think your "helping" the horses in these videos. This is absolutely horrible. What a disgrace. :no:


It could be worse...I could open your eyes and show you the "REAL HORSE WORLD"

[endorphins4u]

It really is! My horses stand to be wormed, stand to be mounted, and walk quietly. I've never had to lay a horse down. Does that make me an idiot? :winkgrin:

Well, by his standard, I'd rather be an idiot ....


Yes...children, we can all do wonders with trained horses. I'd expect nothing less paying someone to do the hardwork..

Have you ever seen the ugly side of a horse..?

[tbtrailrider]

If it was hogwash, this would have been locked long ago...these threads stay open because this is educational...

This thread has stayed open because no one has said anything really foul...not because you are considered a benefit to this board by the moderators. It's educational alright....:rolleyes:

[MacknCody]

If it was hogwash, this would have been locked long ago...these threads stay open because this is educational...

:lol: :lol: :lol: boy, its open cuz we like to watch trainwrecks. Hmmm maybe just me...:D

Seriously though, theres 10 pages of bashing, maybe the thread needs to put to bed?

[YoungFilly]

It could be worse...I could open your eyes and show you the "REAL HORSE WORLD"




Do you have any clue on what a mental case you look like? This is a forum thats backed up by a very successful magazine that practically every horse owner in the US gets. I got the jist that you're in Japan.

What you think your doing... is frankly nasty.

I don't feed trolls...

[Appassionato]

OMG, am I late to this trainwreck? Muwahhahahahaha!

[abrant]

Yes they are more compliant because and calmer because they just realised they aren't stronger then us and we could put them in their place anytime which you sometimes need with an animal 8-10 times our body weight....


How can the realize something that isn't true?? I mean, horses are dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

So I had a really nasty striker here. He took me down once when I was trying to sedate him to have his feet trimmed. So when it was time to have his coggins drawn, I drugged the living snot out of him (first orally over a concrete wall because he would strike maliciously even when handled aroung the face) and put him up in the stocks. He got his coggins pulled. I waited until the drugs wore off and then groomed him and pulled his mane in the stocks. I was hoping this would have the side effect of him realizing that I was stronger than him and striking didn't work. He was absolutely calm in the stocks and went back to his stall nicely. Hahaha. Wrong. When we took him to the TB yearling sale we had two of us on his head to lead him. We handed him over to the handler with the stern warning that he struck. Of course, that coming from a girl, the first thing the guy did was stand in front of the horse and straighten his forelock. Got struck.

I got a call from the people who bought him. They're riding him around the shedrow. I asked how the managed to break him. They said they just had one person work with him every day and over time he stopped being so defensive and changed his attitude. By working with, I mean grooming, ground manners, going slow and setting up routines. All the stuff we should have done but didn't have time to do before the sale.

When you have a horse with an engrained bad habit that they found WORKS (not a baby trying out new tricks), Dr. Time is the only solution. It's simply not practical to throw them down continually, nor is that what I think you are advocating. Because horses are creatures of habit, you have to create new, positive habits in order to break old ones. A one time or even two-five time 'trick' isn't going to resolve a habitual problem.

Horses aren't so complicated that, when they do something evil they think "I am doing this because I am bigger and stronger than you" they are thinking "I am doing this because it WORKS". You have to prove, over time, that it doesn't. You can probably use dropping a horse as a tool, but it's not going to solve a habitual problem and certainly not because you're proving you have bigger balls than they do. (Which is moot in the case of a gelding or mare :lol: )

No video today - rained all day. My big guy is going to nap another day.

~Adrienne

[lstevenson]

And isn't it amazing that you and I and most of the people on this board can worm or mount or do any number of procedures or actions with our horses without the help of this marvelous technique? Despite the fact that we're idiots.



It IS amazing. ;)

[Chevalnoir]

Yes...children, we can all do wonders with trained horses. I'd expect nothing less paying someone to do the hardwork..

Man, I must have got the bargain of the century when I bought my guy at 11 months of age - I never *realized* he was already all trained! No wonder he was so easy to start under saddle and will line up to a mounting block and stand there for handicapped people to clamber onto him and lets me worm him in the pasture, no need for a halter or anything. No wonder he is safe in traffic and lets me pony rambunctious youngsters off him and comes when I call him and sticks his head in the bridle if I just hold it out.

All this time I thought he did all these things because I was quietly and consistently training him - but now I realize that Endo must have flown into the breeder's one dark night before I bought him, and layed him down, and broke him in an hour.

Had to have happened that way, otherwise there's no way an idiot like me could have trained him to do all the things he does, all by myself.

Thanks Endo - I owe ya, buddy!

[Chestnut Mare]

It is rapidly NOT becoming the season to be jolly. If you people can't play nice, we might do worse than just shut this thread down. It's not like we haven't figured out the same group of posters always shows up in a starring role in a snipefest. We get that reasonable discourse appears to be beyond your grasp, but lay off the personal attacks. This applies to newbies as well!

[YoungFilly]

He is still a jerk on his training methods though. That must be made clear.

[Appassionato]

He is still a jerk on his training methods though. That must be made clear.

That I certainly agree with! I can see it's use possibly as last ditch efforts with a horse that is proving untrainable with other methods. But this horse in "Tantrum" apearred to be a green horse that frankly could have just been led. And if "dangerous" were a term to use for this horse by some...why did I never see it buck or rear? And why oh why was a door leading out of the riding area left open? I genuinely would love to see answers to those questions by endorphins.

[endorphins4u]

That I certainly agree with! I can see it's use possibly as last ditch efforts with a horse that is proving untrainable with other methods. But this horse in "Tantrum" apearred to be a green horse that frankly could have just been led. And if "dangerous" were a term to use for this horse by some...why did I never see it buck or rear? And why oh why was a door leading out of the riding area left open? I genuinely would love to see answers to those questions by endorphins.

It's a public training facility with about 400 horses working there everyday, you can't shut the door whenever you want..

She was taken there so I had more space to work with because the roundpen backfired once she felt a wall on her butt..

Leading made her back up worse because she didn't care what was behind her..

She didn't buck or rear because backing up was her thang..

Not all horse buck and rear and they can't mutlitask and switch from one to the other to ther next..they are only good at one or two of these tricks at the most..

The first time she layed down was intentionable because she went down head first but most of the other were because her legs gave out from running backwards. Untrained horses haven't got the stamina to keep running back like that..

[Appassionato]

It's a public training facility with about 400 horses working there everyday, you can't shut the door whenever you want.

Why not? People can't open and close things?

She was taken there so I had more space to work with because the roundpen backfired once she felt a wall on her butt..

Out of curiosity, what happened?

Leading made her back up worse because she didn't care what was behind her.

Ok, explain please? Most lead from the front/side...

She didn't buck or rear because backing up was her thang.

A fairly minor evil most would think.

Not all horse buck and rear and they can't mutlitask and switch from one to the other to ther next..they are only good at one or two of these tricks at the most.

Ok...? All she did was back up.

The first time she layed down was intentionable because she went down head first but most of the other were because her legs gave out from running backwards. Untrained horses haven't got the stamina to keep running back like that.

Ok, what does putting them down intentionally do? Physiologically, psychologically...?

[Beezer]

I have just one question: Is this nitwit a colored sporthorse breeder in his spare time? :winkgrin:

[summerhorse]

Yes...children, we can all do wonders with trained horses. I'd expect nothing less paying someone to do the hardwork..

Have you ever seen the ugly side of a horse..?


Yes I expect a good many of us have and have TRAINED them to not be that way. As did I. She's a sweetheart now but she was a royal monster when I got her. And I never ONCE even dreamed of a need to lay her down either much less make her pass out. Now she will do things because I ask her to and she trusts me, not because I broke her spirit or made her think she was dying at my hands...

[summerhorse]

Man, I must have got the bargain of the century when I bought my guy at 11 months of age - I never *realized* he was already all trained! No wonder he was so easy to start under saddle and will line up to a mounting block and stand there for handicapped people to clamber onto him and lets me worm him in the pasture, no need for a halter or anything. No wonder he is safe in traffic and lets me pony rambunctious youngsters off him and comes when I call him and sticks his head in the bridle if I just hold it out.

All this time I thought he did all these things because I was quietly and consistently training him - but now I realize that Endo must have flown into the breeder's one dark night before I bought him, and layed him down, and broke him in an hour.

Had to have happened that way, otherwise there's no way an idiot like me could have trained him to do all the things he does, all by myself.

Thanks Endo - I owe ya, buddy!

LOL

Maybe he flies around like Santa and his sleigh?

[tbtrailrider]

Not all horse buck and rear and they can't mutlitask and switch from one to the other to ther next..they are only good at one or two of these tricks at the most..



Oh, I beg to differ dear, they have plenty of tricks in their bags...keep talking, this is hilarious.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Appassionato]

Oh, I beg to differ dear, they have plenty of tricks in their bags...keep talking, this is hilarious.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I too have seen them acquire "skills" when trying to evade. Especially the "thinkers". :winkgrin:

[endorphins4u]

Why not? People can't open and close things?

Can somebody break that down for this chick ? Shutting the door would stop PAYING people from working their horse and they would be P'ed

[quote=Appassionato;2080394]Out of curiosity, what happened?

I know your just trying to pick this to pieces but for those who wanna know, she ran back until the wall stopped her and any pressure to get her to come off only made her rear against the wall...

Ok, explain please? Most lead from the front/side...

She was on the wall and pulling on the head collar only made her fight more...yes you saw her leading but she wouldn't take one step with a rider on her , I get off she leads fine, get on she stop...only fillies do that crap ....

A fairly minor evil most would think. Did you see me panic...? I had her number

Ok...? All she did was back up.

Watch it again...geez is there an echo in here or what..

Ok, what does putting them down intentionally do? Physiologically, psychologically...?

It was her intetion not mine..she was doing that..not me

[tbtrailrider]

[quote=Appassionato;2080394]



I get off she leads fine, get on she stop...only fillies do that crap ....






:eek: and with that statement..I vote shut down this thread and boot this arse hole.

Who's with me ? :mad:

[Beezer]

[QUOTE=endorphins4u;2080490]


:eek: and with that statement..I vote shut down this thread and boot this arse hole.

Who's with me ? :mad:


Eh, tbtrailrider, I long ago learned that men who think that way have simply never learned the right way to use the tools in their shed, iffn you know what I mean.

In other words, they tend to blame the plumbing rather than the plumber. ;)

Such a viewpoint causes much less damage to the would-be stud muffin's ego. And I would bet this one wears a big hat to cover the lack of steer.

[endorphins4u]

[QUOTE=endorphins4u;2080490]


:eek: and with that statement..I vote shut down this thread and boot this arse hole.

Who's with me ? :mad:


Oh chill out..

How can you take anything in this thread seriously...

[hitchinmygetalong]

endorphins, I'm very curious about the training facility in the "tantrum" video - could you tell me more about it? Where is it?

Thanks :)

[endorphins4u]

endorphins, I'm very curious about the training facility in the "tantrum" video - could you tell me more about it? Where is it?

Thanks :)

Japan

I've gotta grand tour movie comming up soon ok..

[Chestnut Mare]

Closed