This is a serious how Parelli helped my horse thread. No jokes please.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

As some of the people that come to Pat and Linda Parelli say . . . . my horse is perfect but . . .

I have one of those horses. Bob was perfect when he came to me. He was perfect when he had his clothes on . . . his halter or his bridle or saddle . . . but without those things he was and is dangerous. He has bitten me several times. One time on my neck, just above my collar bone. Actually picked me up. I was ready to send him back to his previous owner but am glad that I didn't.

I had seen the Parelli hoopla prior to getting Bob and actually had purchased the carrot stick, halter, lead rope, etc. but never really figured out how to use them. Through a fluke at Rolex, my husband and I got to spend a lot of quality time with Karen and David O'Connor and were seriously considering going to one of their camps. I knew that part of the clinic would include the seven games and knew that they were not the easiest things to learn. Turns out my new next door neighbor was a Parelli Level one graduate so she arranged for lessons.

The change in Bob is incredible to say the least. He was a hard case for the instructor. She was in awe of his beauty but he was rude on the ground and ran all over me. Now I can wiggle my finger and he just backs away. Or point in a direction and he moves that way. It is amazing.

Parelli is alot about hype but it is also a lot about helping horses and the people that love them. Bob is a much better horse because of Parelli. And I am a much better horse owner.

Flame away, but no karohbi stick jokes please.

[Nootka]

horse communication works. Understanding how and why horses react the way they do. If u understand that then groundwork is easy from there. Some ppl just need more help than others.

I suppose some learn well watchin the Pat stuff. Others it comes naturally for them.

[arabdressage]

I have nothing against Parelli methods... but I have a lot of problems with Parelli hype and marketing. And.... I tried reading the book and it made no sense to me. Because of these two things, I choose not to follow the Parelli method... though I do NH work with my horses.

IMO, it's all basically the same thing, no matter if Pat or Linda Parelli, Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Dennis Reis, Chris Cox, Ken McNabb, etc. are teaching it. I go for the clinician who is easiest to understand, as then I am more able to retain the information given and use it on my own horses. For me, that's Clinton Anderson. For others, it could be someone else. But at the end of the day they are all teaching the same basic principles.

But... no one else asks their students to jump bridleless over the picnic table... for which we are all eternally grateful ;)

[kellyb]

horse communication works. Understanding how and why horses react the way they do. If u understand that then groundwork is easy from there. Some ppl just need more help than others.

I suppose some learn well watchin the Pat stuff. Others it comes naturally for them.

Totally agree. There is nothing special about Parelli stuff...spending any amount of time with your horse on the ground is going to help.

[Dazednconfused]

As some of the people that come to Pat and Linda Parelli say . . . . my horse is perfect but . . .

I have one of those horses. Bob was perfect when he came to me. He was perfect when he had his clothes on . . . his halter or his bridle or saddle . . . but without those things he was and is dangerous. He has bitten me several times. One time on my neck, just above my collar bone. Actually picked me up. I was ready to send him back to his previous owner but am glad that I didn't.

I had seen the Parelli hoopla prior to getting Bob and actually had purchased the carrot stick, halter, lead rope, etc. but never really figured out how to use them. Through a fluke at Rolex, my husband and I got to spend a lot of quality time with Karen and David O'Connor and were seriously considering going to one of their camps. I knew that part of the clinic would include the seven games and knew that they were not the easiest things to learn. Turns out my new next door neighbor was a Parelli Level one graduate so she arranged for lessons.

The change in Bob is incredible to say the least. He was a hard case for the instructor. She was in awe of his beauty but he was rude on the ground and ran all over me. Now I can wiggle my finger and he just backs away. Or point in a direction and he moves that way. It is amazing.

Parelli is alot about hype but it is also a lot about helping horses and the people that love them. Bob is a much better horse because of Parelli. And I am a much better horse owner.

Flame away, but no karohbi stick jokes please.

It's KOHLRABI! :mad:

[Percheron X]

Good horsemanship is based on the same fundamental principles and understanding of equine behavior no mater who is teaching the horsemanship.

A good trainer is one whose "methods of teaching" help you to efficiently achieve your goals through good horsemanship.

The truth is that no single trainers teaching methods are better than any other trainers in any respect other than how effective those teaching method are in conveying the principles of good horsemanship to any one particular student.

Be it a "stick" or a dressage whip, it's how it is used the makes a true horseman.

Any trainer who attempts to persuade a student to believe that their method of teaching is the "best" method through any means other than that of by example, is crossing the boundaries of what is in the students best interest, as only the student can make the decision of what is best for themselves.

Have many different teachers in your life and gain from each only the knowledge that helps you to become that which you are seeking to be.

If Pat Parelli has helped you than he is a good teacher. :yes:

[Midge]

A friend of mine made a interesting statement recently. He said that because Parelli toured so hard, he reached a large audience who were interested in learning more. He was encouraging people to learn more about their horses, even if it WAS wrapped up in the marketing. Many people probably sought out local help because they had made the initial decision to GET help by attending a Parelli clinic.

[DairyQueen2049]

... but I have a lot of problems with Parelli hype and marketing. ;)

I dunno. Crap I wish I were smart enough to market stuff like that - I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams.

Of course, it would mean ditching Mr. DQ and finding a new younger Mr. DQ to help me market - maybe GWNPB is free? He likes to flash it, I hear....or wait! Stiffen Peters! Is he married? Now that would draw EVERY COTHer at least to see his riding feates or ummm other body parts. :lol:

Hey, its all good as long as the horses and humans are safe - but in P & L's 'training' they aren't.

BTW, pass the popscorn please. Chooga chooga chooga - train is now leaving the station.

[EqTrainer]

Any good trainer could have produced that result, and minus the carrot stick.

[monstrpony]

Any good trainer could have produced that result, and minus the carrot stick.


Sure, easy. So why did I stumble around in the dark for 40 years, taking numerous lessons and clinics with people that anyone on this BB would recognize as "good" and yet never learned this stuff?

I disagree completely with your statement. There are legions of "good" trainers who simply overlook this aspect of horsemanship because the buying public thinks that showing, riding over fences, producing fancy upper-level dressage movements, yadda, yadda, is what horsemanship is about, and basic communication with the equine species takes a very back seat.

For all the things there are to dislike about the Parelli system (and the other marketeers), I will grant them this: the horse business is more aware today that there is a better way to interact with horses, and the relatively *few* to whom it comes naturally are no longer seen as mystics or freaks of nature; it IS possible to learn to do this better.

And who benefits the most? The horse. 'Nuf said.

[SaturdayNightLive]

I disagree completely with your statement. There are legions of "good" trainers who simply overlook this aspect of horsemanship because the buying public thinks that showing, riding over fences, producing fancy upper-level dressage movements, yadda, yadda, is what horsemanship is about, and basic communication with the equine species takes a very back seat.



I'm pretty sure that your communication with your horse has to be pretty advanced to jump a 6' fence or to perform one tempis or a piaffe. Just a thought.

[Kimberlee]

I'm pretty sure that your communication with your horse has to be pretty advanced to jump a 6' fence or to perform one tempis or a piaffe. Just a thought.

But that dosen't mean that they understand to teach the way they communicate with horses to their students. Sometimes, people that it comes naturally to think it does for everyone. If it did, then Parelli wouldn't be raking in the bucks, helping people understand their horses.

Not a big fan of the Parelli system, but I am a fan of Natural Horsemanship and have seen how some spectacularly unnatural horse handlers/riders have been helped by learning some fundalmental basics for dealing with animals.

[olympicprincess]

I'm pretty sure that your communication with your horse has to be pretty advanced to jump a 6' fence or to perform one tempis or a piaffe. Just a thought.
:yes: :yes: :yes:

[Czar]

Sure, easy. So why did I stumble around in the dark for 40 years, taking numerous lessons and clinics with people that anyone on this BB would recognize as "good" and yet never learned this stuff?

I disagree completely with your statement. There are legions of "good" trainers who simply overlook this aspect of horsemanship because the buying public thinks that showing, riding over fences, producing fancy upper-level dressage movements, yadda, yadda, is what horsemanship is about, and basic communication with the equine species takes a very back seat.

For all the things there are to dislike about the Parelli system (and the other marketeers), I will grant them this: the horse business is more aware today that there is a better way to interact with horses, and the relatively *few* to whom it comes naturally are no longer seen as mystics or freaks of nature; it IS possible to learn to do this better.

And who benefits the most? The horse. 'Nuf said.

Sorry, but this post irks me.

Numerous lessons and clinics does not make you a horse person nor does it teach you horse sense. And that's not the instructor's fault.

If you need to be told how to lead your horse...than perhaps you do need Parelli. Figure it out, it's not rocket science!

Frankly, that's why people have trainers. I realize that not everyone is born with horse sense and I also realize that some trainers do not have it but I do know that the good ones do and that it is almost impossible to teach it and can be downright DANGEROUS in the wrong hands.

Instead of bugging the crap out of your horse, leave it to a professional to deal with behavioural issues - if you need to watch a video to know how to deal with your horse than you have no business "teaching" it anything.

Vent over.

[monstrpony]

I do not have behavioral issues with my horses, and they lead just fine, thank you, and always have. I've often helped other people who do have issues, the kind of people who just don't get it at all with horses. But it wasn't until I encountered a horse that challenged me--and the issues were very subtle, most people didn't even see what I was talking about--and went to a so-called natural horsemanship person for some input, that I discovered how much better I could be doing, how much more quickly I could get on the same page with a horse, to make it easier for the horse.

Simply because I "got by" for all of those years, all of the fancy trainers and clinicians never bothered to check out the real basics, and I know now that many of them didn't really have a "fair" system of handling basics themselves. I'm not talking about gross behavioral issues, I'm talking about the subtle things that can make communication *better*.

There are people to whom this kind of communication with horses comes naturally; the NH person I went to is one of these, but he's also worked hard to improve on his instinctive talents, and is one of the few who can put what he does into words, can teach it effectively. It is not a matter of games, it is a matter of understanding and communication. And I still contend that many of the mid-level big names in the competitive disciplines do not have this level of understanding and communication, but depend on a relationship that is more (not absolutely, just "more") dictatorial and based on "training" than on true communication and understanding. Sorry if you disagree, but that's my experience and MHO. Which is what we were asked to share here.

[egontoast]

General (behavioral) Horsemanship is a skill that is not often taught in regular riding lessons or clinics. It's assumed people already know this concept.

It was through a NH trainer(not parelli) that I learned I was missing something when dealing with a difficult character ( dominant, biter, cranky, dogfood candidate if I had listened to some) so I have to give credit where credit is due(Chris Irwin) for an amazing turn around. YAY.
I think everyone can benefit from a bit more understanding of how a horse relates to his world BUT it's a tool, not a goal, and must dovetail with other training unless all you want to do is play on the ground with your horse.

I think this is basic information that any old experienced horseperson already knows and anyone who claims to have dibs on it is a charlaton.

[egontoast]

But it wasn't until I encountered a horse that challenged me--and the issues were very subtle, most people didn't even see what I was talking about--and went to a so-called natural horsemanship person for some input, that I discovered how much better I could be doing, how much more quickly I could get on the same page with a horse, to make it easier for the horse.


Yes. I don't think people get it until they experience a 'difficult character' for want of a better term. I didn't know what I didn't know until I met my match with one particular horse. Handled many many horses over the years including working at boarding barns and owning my own facility and didn't know that I was so unaware

I notice people all the time now who have no idea that their horses are walking all over them and blowing them off and they don't know it because little fluffy is so calm and sweet...gimme a treat...but he won't load and he won't do this or that and he doesn't like the outside ring or going by that door etc.

[kewpalace]

Parelli is alot about hype but it is also a lot about helping horses and the people that love them. Bob is a much better horse because of Parelli. And I am a much better horse owner.
That's great you found someone that you can relate to and that you understand and it's a natural reaction to give kudos to the person(s) you believe was the basis for your successs. I do the same (my trainer is Matt Sheridan), although I use a local trainer who knows me and my horse, is easily accessible either in person, by phone or by email, is open minded and ready to discuss other methods, and generally a nice guy. I would not have gotten as far as I have without his dedication and attention. I cannot even imagine trying to do the same off of anyone's books and/or videos. I want someone THERE watching me or explaining to me when I'm having problems.

What I dislike about alot of BNT is the hard sell marketing crap. But, I hate hard sell in any profession and it makes me instantly run the other way. It really turns me off a person/product they are hyping. "Do you want this? Then buy my product!" No thanks. Not only the hyping, but the implications that if you aren't using their product or doing it their way, you just aren't looking for the best or to be the best are you?? I had a cult (not in horsemanship, LOL) tell me that because I didn't want to buy into their "home study course" I certainly didn't want to improve myself. Nope, I want to be - I strive to be - a disgusting societal mess thank you very much with no friends or family support. I also hate "cute" names or euphemisms for the same ideas/processes/actions that already have names - that appeals to many people and I have no bone with that - it just doesn't appeal to me. In the least. Call it what it is. Don't dress it up to sell it. But that's part of the market, too, eh?

Actually, the testimonials I love the best are those that come from no-name trainers students. I really love hearing those!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

ditto arabdressage and the rest. My tariner is not a Parelli trainer. She has experienece in several disciplines, but she is helping me with classical ground work, and the difference in my horse and my riding is simply ...amazing.

This is why we honor her with chocolate at every lesson.

[Czar]

I do not have behavioral issues with my horses, and they lead just fine, thank you, and always have. I've often helped other people who do have issues, the kind of people who just don't get it at all with horses. But it wasn't until I encountered a horse that challenged me--and the issues were very subtle, most people didn't even see what I was talking about--and went to a so-called natural horsemanship person for some input, that I discovered how much better I could be doing, how much more quickly I could get on the same page with a horse, to make it easier for the horse.

Simply because I "got by" for all of those years, all of the fancy trainers and clinicians never bothered to check out the real basics, and I know now that many of them didn't really have a "fair" system of handling basics themselves. I'm not talking about gross behavioral issues, I'm talking about the subtle things that can make communication *better*.

There are people to whom this kind of communication with horses comes naturally; the NH person I went to is one of these, but he's also worked hard to improve on his instinctive talents, and is one of the few who can put what he does into words, can teach it effectively. It is not a matter of games, it is a matter of understanding and communication. And I still contend that many of the mid-level big names in the competitive disciplines do not have this level of understanding and communication, but depend on a relationship that is more (not absolutely, just "more") dictatorial and based on "training" than on true communication and understanding. Sorry if you disagree, but that's my experience and MHO. Which is what we were asked to share here.

Sorry, I didn't mean to react so harshly - these things sort of get me going sometimes.

I have nothing against natural horsemanship when used correctly - but it's misused so often that it leaves a bad impression with me. Like dressage ;)

Horses are animals...they are not pets or circus performers. I feel the same way about dogs and kids - you need to let them be what they are. Correct bad behaviour but don't nit pick. It's like parents who bring their 4 yr old to a fancy 5 course meal restaurant and than harp on them all night for not sitting still - or people who bring their dogs to the dog park than yell at them the whole time to "heel".

Ugh, that just bothers me. I guess it's not really detrimental to the horse/dog/child but it's just so unpleasant and I always feel for the victim.

[War Admiral]

I think *one* of the points Monstrpony was trying to make kinda got lost in the shuffle. To wit: That a LOT of BNTs ignore ground work and stall manners in the interest of getting the horse in the ring and winning.

Ask me how I know this? When I first got him, Avery had never had his sheath cleaned without a tranq. He had absolutely NO CLUE what I was trying to do and proceeded to attempt to kick the living sh*t out of me.

Apparently some BNT's just can't be bothered about giving horses any kind of training that doesn't earn them points. :rolleyes: They may be great show ring trainers, but they are crappy HORSE trainers.

[Sonesta]

I think *one* of the points Monstrpony was trying to make kinda got lost in the shuffle. To wit: That a LOT of BNTs ignore ground work and stall manners in the interest of getting the horse in the ring and winning.

Ask me how I know this? When I first got him, Avery had never had his sheath cleaned without a tranq. He had absolutely NO CLUE what I was trying to do and proceeded to attempt to kick the living sh*t out of me.

Apparently some BNT's just can't be bothered about giving horses any kind of training that doesn't earn them points. :rolleyes: They may be great show ring trainers, but they are crappy HORSE trainers.

Yep, I agree that too many trainers (BNT and NNT) don't bother teaching the basic ground manners. AMAZING! But about all the good I'll say about PP is that he DOES teach basic ground manners. If he and his wife would stop there, they wouldn't provoke so much ire.

[Horsecrazy27]

I think Parelli and others like him have really spread "KIND" horsemanship---that you don't have to break a horses spirit to teach. So many people see horses and have a fantasty like they are a big dog and will understand---stay, oh pretty horsey..........Then they get hurt, sometimes multiple occasions, some will seek help, others turn to making the horse "submit". All and all not understanding how horses understand our communicate with us.

For these people who find Parelli or someone else, it teaches them patience, kindness and most importantly communication. I think because of his marketing, he has reached a ton of people---which if you consider the above it is a good thing. He even states that only 1 % of his "students" don't get past level 1------(loose interest, or that is all they wanted to get past--maybe some ground issues)......you don't got "bridleless" until level 3....which takes Months--or years depending on how fast you want to go. So, it is not taking Joe out of the audience and say, go just on that horse bareback with out a bridle and jump that table!!! It is not like that.

I have had horses my whole life 36 years and actually saw Parelli 2 years ago---and he opend a few doors in my life. Will I be the bridleless/halterless rider????? NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!! But, I like the ground stuff---actually I love it!! I watch the undersaddle stuff---haven't really applied any of it....I like how I do things right now.....but, the ground/lunging stuff has really impressed me and my horses love it!! I have them "mirror" me--I run, stop, turn, back up--no lead and they stay on my shoulder-----I can point to a jump, they go over it and return to me---and from a distance I can have them back up, turn and go back over it----it is fun. I have always had a good communication with horses.....but, this made it a LOT stronger and more fun!

[tbtrailrider]

I hope this is not a Cother...but this mare could use some Parelli...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XokemywfY44

[Fancy]

Numerous lessons and clinics does not make you a horse person nor does it teach you horse sense. And that's not the instructor's fault.

Instead of bugging the crap out of your horse, leave it to a professional to deal with behavioural issues - if you need to watch a video to know how to deal with your horse than you have no business "teaching" it anything.


Except, some of us don't have the kind of $$$ it takes to have a "professional" deal with our horses, and some of us (I am in this group) wouldn't send a horse to most of them in any case. IMHO, if *I* don't figure out how to deal with my own horse, no amount of professional time will "fix" her because I will just recreate the same problems.

I am a Parelli L1 grad, working on L2, and believe the program has great merit. Many people have learned a lot from P&L. You don't have to own a celery stick, and you don't have to jump picnic tables. You just have to learn to SEE a horse, and listen to what she is telling you. I have a partnership with my mare--45-55 and she has the short end. But she DOES have a stake in the partnership. That's more than she would have with some "professionals."

[Czar]

Except, some of us don't have the kind of $$$ it takes to have a "professional" deal with our horses

I'm sorry and I know this may offend some people but I don't buy this.

I've always believed that you afford what you want to.

When you own a horse, you are obligated to afford whatever the horse needs. If that means professional training, than so be it.

It bothers me to see people trying to "muddle" their way through training b/c they don't want to spend the $$$ or time to find a reliable trainer. And that is what Parelli and those like him sell...the do-it-yourself method. Like you can learn training out of a book or off a video...puhlease! Not everyone is meant to be a trainer.

[appaloosalady]

I think *one* of the points Monstrpony was trying to make kinda got lost in the shuffle. To wit: That a LOT of BNTs ignore ground work and stall manners in the interest of getting the horse in the ring and winning.

Ask me how I know this? When I first got him, Avery had never had his sheath cleaned without a tranq. He had absolutely NO CLUE what I was trying to do and proceeded to attempt to kick the living sh*t out of me.

Apparently some BNT's just can't be bothered about giving horses any kind of training that doesn't earn them points. :rolleyes: They may be great show ring trainers, but they are crappy HORSE trainers.

Where's the giant applause smilie? :) :yes:

[citydog]

I hope this is not a Cother...but this mare could use some Parelli...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XokemywfY44

Ugh. Most of the comments on that one have depressed the heck outta me. :no:

[MeredithTX]

That video made me gasp out loud a couple of times. :(

[citydog]

I've always believed that you afford what you want to.


You're right! That *is* really offensive. Your "beliefs" do not *reality* make. (As the many, many people in this country alone who just can *not* afford decent healthcare for their families no matter how very much they might "want" to can attest. :rolleyes: )


When you own a horse, you are obligated to afford whatever the horse needs.

I agree with you here, though. The trick, of course, is finding out what is a real vs. perceived need.

[Lildunhorse]

I went to a Parelli clinic. I was transfixed for two solid days on the most miserably cold metal bleachers ever invented. Mr. Parelli reached me. The marketing going on at the north end of the tent was annoying, yes, but I won't begrudge him his profit margin.

I eventually found a trainer who had taken what he found to work well from Parelli and a few others and moshed it together into something that not only worked for him, but saved me from a terrible lot of frustration. And Steve Bosworth, if you're out there, we miss you.

[Czar]

You're right! That *is* really offensive. Your "beliefs" do not *reality* make. (As the many, many people in this country alone who just can *not* afford decent healthcare for their families no matter how very much they might "want" to can attest. :rolleyes: )

Sorry...to clarify...I was referring specifically to horses, not life in general. When you have a horse, you are responsible for their welfare - if you cannot afford to look after it properly, than you need to reassess horse ownership.

It's like a family I know...always whining and complaining everytime a cost comes up with their horse...like 2 grams of bute when she was sore...but the girls come to the barn with a new hair colour (from the salon) every other week. :rolleyes: It's called priority.

[egontoast]

I think Parelli and others like him have really spread "KIND" horsemanship---that you don't have to break a horses spirit to teach.

Hmmm. I think they and Monty Roberts spread the idea that they invented kind horsemanship. They pretend that before them everyone 'broke' horses in a harsh and brutal way. That's simply not true.

Those of us who were introduced to the horse world many decades ago know that this is just not true. I can't speak for the western disciplines(I really don't know) but certainly not in the english disciplines. The old texts are still out there. The slow methodic gentle methods were used and ,by the way ,there was no reason to break and saddle a wild mustang in an hour to fit into a TV time slot or to wow the carrot stick crowd. Circus tricks.

[Horsecrazy27]

Hmmm. I think they and Monty Roberts spread the idea that they invented kind horsemanship. They pretend that before them everyone 'broke' horses in a harsh and brutal way. That's simply not true.

Those of us who were introduced to the horse world many decades ago know that this is just not true. I can't speak for the western disciplines(I really don't know) but certainly not in the english disciplines. The old texts are still out there. The slow methodic gentle methods were used and ,by the way ,there was no reason to break and saddle a wild mustang in an hour to fit into a TV time slot or to wow the carrot stick crowd. Circus tricks.


Every time I have seen Parelli, he always talks about his teachers.....and never gives credit to himself....but, to the horse and the ones he learned from.

I don't know, I rememer as a kid watching H/J trainers just go nuts on a horse, (the first type of riding that I learned when I was 11) also the cowboys that were at the barn next door and dressage trainers (just 4 years ago)..... lacking the wisdom to try a different way to "get through". I can't name names...but, I saw some NASTY stuff...and they had a ton of students---young and impressionable. If I had the pleasure of being a parent, I would rather my kid be exposed to a Parelli type than what I experianced as a child, young adult and while even in my early 30's (I'm 36). I still see farriers break their rasp on a horse (not my farrier or horse), just a couple of years ago saw a dressage trainer tie a horses leg up and pull him over----beating him when he was down. I saw a cowboy 3 years ago ride a horse to exhaustion in 119 degree August Arizona Summer...while talking to me and a friend, the horse was sweating something terrible, and breathing irratic----then fell over and died......noticing all his spur marks and whip marks on his dying body. So, this behavior still exists---and these are highly valued trainers selling horses for 100,000k $!!! But, happen to be in the right place at the right time to see some of this..... not to mention an arabian barn where abused seemd to be on a daily basis...tying a horse to a pole for 3 days to teach it a lesson, no food or water! So, a person who may have been exposed to this way of treating horses and has for years thought this was okay, then maybe seeing another way Parreli, for example---it truley benefits horses and peoople ....

I don't know...... it is funny..... this is not a perfect world where everyone agree's on everything.....but, kindness---love, no matter WHO teaches it is a good thing for the world---and our animals. Because if a person learns kindness to animals--maybe, just maybe it will start spreading more to children--and man kind----and who knows...maybe this world will become a better happier place. It has to start somewhere. I don't see anything wrong with what he does.....wish I would of thought of it and had the personality to promote myself like he has done. Good for him to be successful.

I think he has done more good for the horse world than bad----I think the people who down grade him only have experianced either a tv show---or a single occasion or even just hear say. Not understanding his whole program---you kind of have to try it before you slam it.....you know?

Not talking to you directly Egon--- you always seem sensible and kind in your post. Just used yours as a starting point for myself. :)

[egontoast]

Well. I must admit my only direct information about Parelli is from his book. The rest is observation of the marketing and seeing the results with the followers . Maybe I am unfairly lumping him in on that issue. I guess it's Monty who really seems to want to give the impression that his method is a new way to train horses. I have see him interviewed.:cool:

[annikak]

Terri!

This is great GREAT news and I am more then happy (as you can imagine). :winkgrin: Its always been obvious to me that you love Bob, and I am glad, in whatever way, that you have been able to deal with his rather "large" personality. Why he was a lease is just that. While he only got me once in the arm, I knew it was there as a possibility he might do it again. I am glad for you and (more so) for Bob that you got him. I can say that he indeed did teach me about being a horse person. I guess he takes that part of his job seriously.:lol: Before Bob, I know nothing. Green and green in our case did not = black and blue because he was a nice guy...once his bride was on!
I cannot wait to see both of you!!
Annika (and Taco, a new brand of learning about horses...) :sigh:

[Tillie]

To the OP, if you found a system that works for you, great. Parelli probably has helped a bunch of people. However, there are definitely people who are absolutely clueless about horse "sense", buy the book, buy the system, work through it and who knows if they're "certified." I have seen people "try" to use it but b/c they don't understand when to take pressure off, etc, etc, the horse is still freaked out and fearful of that carrot stick being waved in his face..b/c he still doesn't understand what he is being asked.
Parelli is not the only method...but it seems to be a method that is SO marketed that any fool can go out, buy the system, and think he knows how to train horses.

And yes, totally agree that many BNT's, and NNT's, have no understanding of horses and totally skip the groundwork part. They don't relate to the horses nor do they take the time to understand them..other than how to get them to do certain things under saddle. They're just like any of those "natural horsemanship" trainers...it's just common sense..err, horse sense!

And as a side note..for any people that "bend" their horses head to their knee (and yes, I did a parelli clinic), apparently you haven't had a horse take off with you w/ their neck whipped around to the side. Hasn't happened to me, but I've heard stories.

Probably going to get flamed, but I'm popping some popcorn at the moment.

[cryslea]

Parelli is not the only method...but it seems to be a method that is SO marketed that any fool can go out, buy the system, and think he knows how to train horses.


Oh, god, this is so true. I read Monty Roberts and fancied myself a horse whisperer... and I got basically no where. My horse was sensitive so I was afraid to discipline him, so he ended up with really bad ground manners.

I got help from a trainer, and he's awesome now. She does use some Parelli, but obviously knows how to use it properly. She's been teaching me as well (more common sense than any one system), and it's been great.

The problem I had was that I learn better by seeing someone else do it, and then have them critique me as I do it. Videos and books can't do that. Also, a video or a book can't respond to MY horse, who is an individual, and not some case study.

[monstrpony]

And as a side note..for any people that "bend" their horses head to their knee (and yes, I did a parelli clinic), apparently you haven't had a horse take off with you w/ their neck whipped around to the side. Hasn't happened to me, but I've heard stories.


Yup, you, too, can join the legions of people who have gotten themselves in trouble with something that appears simple, by doing it completely incorrectly.

['Sconie]

If a horse can compete well at higher levels, it does not mean that he also has impeccable ground manners. Some of the nicest horses I've ever ridden were total a**holes on the ground because no one ever took the time to work with them on the ground and find out why they acted that way...
So I agree with the previous posters who commented on the general lack of ground training. I'm not supporting the Parelli empire here, but I would definitely like to learn how to effectively reverse some dangerous bad habits.

[Horsecrazy27]

To the OP, if you found a system that works for you, great. Parelli probably has helped a bunch of people. However, there are definitely people who are absolutely clueless about horse "sense", buy the book, buy the system, work through it and who knows if they're "certified." I have seen people "try" to use it but b/c they don't understand when to take pressure off, etc, etc, the horse is still freaked out and fearful of that carrot stick being waved in his face..b/c he still doesn't understand what he is being asked.
Parelli is not the only method...but it seems to be a method that is SO marketed that any fool can go out, buy the system, and think he knows how to train horses.

And yes, totally agree that many BNT's, and NNT's, have no understanding of horses and totally skip the groundwork part. They don't relate to the horses nor do they take the time to understand them..other than how to get them to do certain things under saddle. They're just like any of those "natural horsemanship" trainers...it's just common sense..err, horse sense!

And as a side note..for any people that "bend" their horses head to their knee (and yes, I did a parelli clinic), apparently you haven't had a horse take off with you w/ their neck whipped around to the side. Hasn't happened to me, but I've heard stories.

Probably going to get flamed, but I'm popping some popcorn at the moment.

AGAIN, not directing at you Tillie...just am talking and expressing. Which while I sit here soaking in my Vicadan (MAJOR root Canal today)...I'm sharing my long thoughts!


I think you have to go to his ranch and go through courses with him to be certified.... you can upgrade your "string" for your carrot stick by going through the course, sending a video in--and they score the video---if you pass, you get the next color string....(levels)

I think if you watch PP, you see that he is constantly trying to get people to understand horses. (and trying to talk in a manner in which those who have little horse sense can understand) To teach people to watch horses and learn their body language and watch your own. To be consistant, confident and patient. Also, it is talked over and over again---"Saftey"...do you know how many times they say that? LOL....every other sentence. They want you to THINk before you do anything----constantly knowing where your horse is and by looking at them, know what they are thinking. It is for SURE not intended to read the book and become certified--it is intended for you do get out, do the games-- (which is establishing a communicatioin) and then sending this to him or his crew to evaluate. Your also supposed to keep a daily journal of accomplisments, the amount of time you spent "playing with your horse", the goals for the next day, challenges....this builds a realistic approach to your goals and what you have accomplished.

No matter what is said about him, he is a kind man--both towards humans and animals---may not have always been (self admitted by himself)..but, as he grew---he got wiser. He is just trying to share that-----They are excited to help people. Have you seen the videos of the handicapped people doing amazing things with their horses? This wheel chair bound lady was out in a 100 acre or more field, trotting next to her motorized wheel chair, going where she pointed, on and on....then finally kneeling to the ground while others helped her get on---holding on to a sir single (spelling) and it was just amazing----crying amazing. There is another who was using a golf cart had a mare and foal.....both the mare and foal doing all the games remarkably in unison.....these people have occomplished the near impossible, because of PP. Giving them happiness that they might have never known.

As I said...I don't agree with some of the under saddle stuff---but, I still watch it and think about what they say, sometimes I try things-----but, I'm kind of set in my ways about that. But, I'm not closed to others opinions. I have been around horses long enough to know that there is no "one way" for every horse---you HAVE to be flexible in this "hobby", Career" and passion--if you want to have a successful happy life with any horse. I watch just about anyone I see on RFD---even the roper guys....I try to find something to learn--even if it is to NOT do something.

I was in the SAVVY group and received a dvd every month---I learned a lot---about the man PP is--with his handi capped son, the love he has for those who are less fortunate than many of us and for kids. To me he makes sense...and his kind heart makes me over look some of the hokey things he does and say.

I enjoy Clinton, and the others on the RFD channels....I'm so glad we all finally have a channel to watch our horsey shows.

BUT, I'm a Horse Crazy person---as I have said before, I just plain like horses and how athletic they are----they are brilliant and reselant (spelling) to our mistakes so many other things that we have put them through while we have domesticated them.

Anyway.....whew. that was long!! LOL!

.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Well, just MHO, but I think that Parelli, Roberts, and the rest of them are complete idiots. That whole flick-it-at-'em rope nonsense just pushes me over the edge. ...or maybe it's the legions of followers who insist that anybody not doing Parelli is abusive and doesn't know how to communicate with their horse. It doesn't take a special stick with a level 8 hot pink string attached to teach good ground manners and I resent that fact that all of you Parelli supporters insist that ALL show horses have terrible ground manners and are complete monsters to deal with. I'm sorry, but my 4 year old hunter is better schooled that just about any Parelli trained horse I have ever seen. If Parelli is such a genius horse trainer than how come not a single Parelli trained horse has ever reached the top in H/J or dressage competition?

Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations here - but I'm certainly not the only one. And no, this is not directed at those who understand that there are other methods out there. It's more directed at those of you who continue to insist that all H/J and Dressage people are abusive.

[LostFarmer]

I have read this post and worked really hard at not replying...But. I have a pony gelding that was not taught personal space as a youngster. He would get in my space all the time. I even had a parelli "expert" do the rope wiggle with him. The pony thought it was a game. I finally got a whiffle ball bat and smacked him across the chest when he crowded me. We came to an understanding about life in a hurry.

I was asked during the whole horse whisperer craze if I whisper to my horses. I responded with yup I whisper, then I ask, then I demand.

As a side note, after I got this gelding behaving well on the ground the Parelli expert came back and was boasting on how well he behaved after her training. ;) She couldn't believe that he was such a gentleman on the ground. He is still a keg of dynamite in harness and under saddle. But, his ground manners are nearly perfect.

LF

[CANTERSoIL]

(added after - this turned into a darn BOOK, advanced apologies to those who actually wade through the entire thing.... ;) )


Hmmm... well, I'm glad to see a somewhat positive thread with "The P Word" in the title. ;)

Keeping in mind that I've never seen any of the "marketing" so often mentioned here, and wouldn't know Parelli himself if he walked past me on the street, here's my experience with the methods (not the marketing, not the man).

Having had NO experience with "Natural" horsemanship, or flickatation or whatever, I was at a hunter pace where a mare wouldn't load onto the trailer to go home. Everyone gave it the ol' college try - poking, prodding, squeezing, begging, etc., and the mare wouldn't load (of course!). No one beat her or abused her, but the typical "10 people standing around, each taking their turn with their own way" and no one having success. Someone off watching in the distance says that one of the people she came with can get the mare on the trailer. The owners were all for it, all methods had been exhausted at that point. The gal goes & gets her friend, who comes and works with the horse on the ground for 15-20 minutes, points the mare to the trailer and she hops on, takes her back off, mare hops back on.... wash, rinse, repeat...... Mare is loaded in the trailer, I ask ground-working gal for her card. :winkgrin: Now, keep in mind I come from a racetrack background, and have come up around people who, God love 'em, aren't always the most open to anything different that what they are used to... and have it admit I had serious doubts that what this gal was doing on the ground was going to accomplish a darn thing in getting the mare to load. But hey, I couldn't get her to load....

Fast-forward to "Crazy unridable untrainable mare" who comes into CANTER's care. The mare is described as "explosive" - she'll tremble, sweat, shake and go EVERY direction except forward under saddle. "Leads" well enough on the ground, loads on the trailer, but as far as ground work/lunging is concerned, will do nothing but trot 90 miles an hour in either direction. Tack=terror for this mare. (Oddly enough, when indoors, she's not quite so bad, would just be considered "hot" - but the second you step out into the light of day, up she goes - never could figure that connection out). Send her to a "traditional" trainer for 90 days, a VERY good rider, specializes in OTTBs, former jockey/gallop gal, decades of experience. I'll not take anything away from this gal in that department, and I've seen her handle some pretty hot horses like she's off enjoying a Sunday drive. 90 days later, we have the same exact mare for the most part. She's downright dangerous, and we can NOT afford to adopt her out the way that she is, far too much of a liability, and just plain wouldn't be the right thing to do. Now, keep in mind again, almost my entire "horsie career" has been spent at the track.... I've seen and handled some REAL doozies. And this mare was just plain OFF - there was a switch in her mind that just wasn't working right. Digging into her background at the track, she always had a history of being 'hot' but was considered manageable. The one hint of things to come was the fact that sometimes, when coming back from morning gallops, she'd freeze and refuse to go forward. Not an everyday thing, the rider would generally hop off and lead her the rest of the way - this was NOT a mare you wanted to get into a fight with - you were going to lose. Somewhere along the line, she decided she'd had ENOUGH. She had no physical issues (we took care of teeth, chiro, etc.) to be found.

I REALLY thought this mare was "salvagable", why I don't know. :D So, I dig through the roladex (geez, who still has one of those things?) and find the card for the gal who loaded the mare. We spoke at GREAT LENGTH about the mare, made the arrangements, and off the mare went to the new gal. My first trip up, probably 3-4 weeks later to check the progress, I saw a different horse. Mind you, no one on her back, but on the ground - under tack - was a completely different animal. She was attentive, willing, smart as a whip - and the trainer was in love with her. She was doing - what I now know - each of the 7 games very well - tight on movements, "phase 1" asking only. Another 3-4 weeks, she's doing everything at liberty.... tacked up.... "A freakin' circus pony", I called her.... she could lead or point or back that mare anywhere through, up, over, or around any obstacle by pointing or wiggling her finger.... another 3-4 weeks, the mare is positioning herself at the mounting block, allowing trainer to mount, and being ridden OUTSIDE(!) with halter & lead rope (and saddle). NOT rearing or going sideways. No one claimed any miracle, nor tried to sell me anything either. ;) Trainer is my new "best friend" :winkgrin:

Untrainable mare:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/cantersoillinois/angelblock.jpg

This year, we get starved little Peaches, who was unhandled, but amicable enough in most ways. Sure, she needs to learn to lead, pick up her feet, not crowd you, etc., but those are things that most of us have taught before - based on experience, not having to buy videos or any special equipment. Is she a basket case? By no means. She's just a little behind in learning the things that most horses learn as foals. When we first got her, because of the emergency situation that surrounding her, we had to keep her in a stall at the track, there was nowhere else for her to go at that point. Lots of very experienced folks played with her, she learned to lead, walk on the walker, we started working on picking up her feet, etc. Just basic handling, nothing special. Now, when she was rescued, she was hesitant to load, but also so malnourished & weak was not in any condition to put up a fight - and it was her first time on a trailer. She was basically (literally) just scooped up from behind and put on the trailer.

Now comes the time to move her from the track, we found a place willing to give her a stall & a little turnout until we could find somewhere more permanent for her to stay. Big, roomy trailer - expected her to probably give a little trouble loading but didn't think it would be a huge deal. Well, it was. Peaches was much stronger and feeling MUCH better now. The biggest deal in loading a horse I've ever endured. Now, those of you from the track know that a horse that won't load is a like honey to flies - EVERYONE comes out of the woodwork. You'll see people you haven't seen in YEARS pop up in the crowd. :lol: So, about 15 people, probably well over 200 years combined experience in loading & handling thoroughbreds of all temperments that are unwilling to load, several dozen feet of rope, 2 broken halters, blood, sweat & tears (the blood & tears were mine ;) ), a buggy whip (NOT "whipped" mind you), a broom, a rake, an umbrella being popped open & closed, several breaks back to the stall, a vet, syringe, needle, cocktail and two pairs of ripped jeans later.... Peaches is on the trailer. :eek: Knowing she would only be at the new place for a month or so, my next course of action was to call the trainer above and schedule the date for her trailering, having her come to load her - all the time in the world needed.

Lots of good experienced horse folks at this barn as well... one of the top 10 young dressage horses in the nation lives and is trained here. Our trainer pulls up with her trailer and trusty "carrot" stick and gets the same reaction that most give here.... eyes rolling, oh that's a PARELLI stick, like it's a dirty word. Small crowd watches for a while as trainer works with Peaches on the ground. Eyes are still rolling, lots of "I could have had her on there by now", blah blah blah.... I smile & nod, seeing myself in their comments/thoughts prior to meeting this trainer. "She's teaching her to load, not just getting her on the trailer, I say." Mind you, I still don't know or understand a whole heck of a lot of what she's doing - I don't know what the "7 games" are, etc. I just know this gal can get results. So, the time comes and she points Peaches to the trailer and in she goes. Out she comes, in she goes - wash, rinse, repeat. The trainer says to me, "This filly belongs at my place - she's smart, cute and has tons of spirit. I like her. She needs to be somewhere where she can be worked with." She offers to donate six weeks of board, plus a six week ground training course for Peaches - IF I'd make the commitment to come and do the course with Peaches. Well, "free" and "donate" being the magic words in rescue, ;) , I say "TAKE HER!". BTW, everyone else had walked away after only 10 minutes, because they just knew there was nothing to learn or see there. :no:

Now, it's my turn to learn - HA! Old habits die hard, the whole teaching an old dog new tricks thing, ya know. Please, give me a greenie who is a NIGHTMARE in the paddock, needing a lip chain and extreme dexterity and a strong right arm, and have them drag me to the paddock, have to be saddled on the walk, etc., etc., and it's NO PROBLEM.... but ask me to keep hold of this little filly's lead at LEAST two arm lengths from the halter? Let the rope touch the ground? Ha ha ha..... ALL THUMBS. Peaches is dancing around, I'm totally and completely frustrated because I KNOW that I CAN make her be still. I know that I CAN keep her out of 'my space', but I've made the commitment to at least TRY a new way. I stuck with it, as hard as it was some times. Who'd have thought the stuff that is made light of here so often could have had an experienced track gal to the point of TEARS in frustration at times - all because I COULDN'T do what I normally would and was all thumbs with that damn 12 ft. rope & stick. BUT, I stuck with it. Thank the Lord little Peaches is smarter than I am most days. ;) She now has AMAZING ground manners and is like a little monkey, stepping up onto or over anything I point her towards.

When it comes to the methods, again not the man, not the marketing - it was VERY easy to see how this stuff could get a horrible name being in a group class, even with just myself, if folks are trying to do this with just videos or books, not having someone there to teach. The biggest mistake I saw, and hey, EVERYONE makes mistakes when learning, was that many people didn't get the idea of releasing pressure IMMEDIATELY upon getting the desired result, or running up the phases too quickly - a trainer being present was absolutely necessary to help people learn this. Luckily, I did already know - as many of us do - the idea of pressure/release immediately, so once I got past the frustration of what to DO with all this STUFF I had to handle, things got much easier, quickly - and how FUN!! What I was learning was different ways to give pressure - different areas, different results, different ideas. But I could see where people could get into BIG trouble if trying this without instruction. The "flickatation" and "rope wagglin'", etc., are things you should NOT be seeing unless a horse is just beginning to learn giving that type of pressure. It's like saying "Shoes are bad!!" - it's not the shoes, its the application.

Am I by any means now a "trainer" or "expert" after a six week course? My goodness NO. But have I learned anything that will be of benefit to myself and horses in my present & future life? HECK YES. The BIGGEST mistake we can make as horsemen is to close our minds to ANYTHING. You've got to be willing to open up your mind and keep it that way until you at least understand the meanings behind ANY method. Even if you don't agree with it, or will never use the method, you've learned something from it. And the minute you stop learning, you limit yourself, your horses and your future with them.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

Thank you every one for responding and mostly looking at the positive side of Parelli. I was tied up all day yesterday and wasn't able to get back to the thread but I wanted to make a few comments about some of the things that have been said. I appologize that I have not gone back through the thread to find out who said what.

Someone mentioned that it took a very difficult horse for them to embrace the the natural horsemanship methods. That's the way it was for me. My husband and I breed horses. One of the people that purchased one of our foals actually acused us of crossing him with a lab :D since he is so easy to work with and so friendly. We are the only ones that ever worked with him and this was before my Parelli lessons.

Annika, I do love Bob very much! He is just the perfect horse for me. I thought that I would improve my riding by getting him and I have. I had no idea that he would improve my horsemanship so much :cool:. He can be both funny and sweet. The funny part is when we go to shows. He absolutely loves it! I braid for dressage at my low level just because you can tell he thinks he is so beautiful and is ready to perform. There is a picture of us in my profile.

About the carrot stick. In the level 2 program they actually have you tie a bell to the carrot stick to make you aware of how much you are using it so that you will stop. It is a tool to get you past level 1 but after that they want you to limit its use.

Anyway thanks again everyone for keeping it positive and I look forward to more comments.

Terry

[monstrpony]

CANTERSoIL and Horsecrazy27, where is the stand-up-and-applaud icon??? Very well said!!

SaturdayNightLive, go back and read the title of this thread. If you don't have anything nice to say, well--what you said has been said a gazillion times on this BB already (yaaaaawwwwn), we really just don't need to read it again. Almost no one here has spoken in absolutes (except you). I did experience a large number of accomplished horsemen who ignored the communication basics, but I certainly haven't experienced all of them, nor did I claim to. Clearly others were raised by horsemen who did include this in their teaching, and I know many of the top-level people in all disciplines understand it in their own way; it's why they're the ones on top. I just amazes me how many pretty darned good ones don't put this kind of thing at a higher priority in their work. War Admiral's post at the top of page two puts that in perspective quite well.

But I think CANTERSoIL's post says it all. There is something to be learned from this type of horsemanship, even by people who have been surviving quite nicely, thank you, by other methods. The other methods are not abusive, by any means, but sometimes, it can just be done a little better for the horse. That's worth something.

Unfortunately, as in all things in life that are worthwhile, there is also a lot of room for error. I don't think anyone will deny that. But, for all of it's flaws, and the evidence shows that they are considerable, at least the Parelli system is trying. At least they are trying.

[lindac]

Thank You CANTERSoIL for a wonderful post.

I consider myself very lucky to have a barn owner who invited a Parelli instructor to come to the barn and give clinics. This was 5 years ago.

I had just bought a very spooky 3 yo ASB gelding. I had 20 years of experience with horses at that point, mostly Saddle Seat type training. I had always dealt with mainly older horses and the young ASB's that I was involved with when I was younger were never as spooky as my 3 year old ASB Dressage prospect! :eek:

I went to several Parelli clinics held at the barn. I watched and I learned and I applied what I learned with my horse. He was scared of EVERYTHING. He was a very fearful horse, but bright and eager to learn. He slowly came around and we passed our Level 1 groundwork with flying colors.

I believe totally in my heart that had I not found a training system that taught ME how to deal with my horse's behavior, that I would have a very fancy ASB pleasure horse instead of the very nice and successful soon to be Grand Prix Dressage horse Harry Callahan.

I could have learned from Clinton Anderson or Monty Roberts, but the Parelli instructor got there first. Did I buy into all of it. No. My goal was to have a Dressage horse, so I only did the Level 1 groundwork.
But if my goal was to have a fun companion and not serious competition, sure, I would be right there trying to get my Level 3!

[Ghazzu]

But that dosen't mean that they understand to teach the way they communicate with horses to their students. Sometimes, people that it comes naturally to think it does for everyone. If it did, then Parelli wouldn't be raking in the bucks, helping people understand their horses.

Not a big fan of the Parelli system, but I am a fan of Natural Horsemanship and have seen how some spectacularly unnatural horse handlers/riders have been helped by learning some fundalmental basics for dealing with animals.


What he does is break down every little thing into an insert tab A into slot B type of directions.
So people who *don't* understand horses can get some results.
Yes, in many cases, the lightbulb does go on for the people doing this, but at this point, I've seen a significant number of people who faithfully follow their little flashcards, and still can't buy a clue.

In that respect, PP is no different from anyone else who "sells" a training method.

Part of all this is, IMO, due to the increasing numbers of horseowners who didn't grow up around the beasts. You tend to learn most of that stuff by osmosis if you hang with old horsesmen for years, and take care of horses on a day to day basis.
But things change, and growing up riding but not caretaking, and never having the opportunity to spend time with people who start horses makes all this seem very mysterious and a Big Deal.

So people tend to think that someone pointing what a lot of horsemen find obvious is magic.

What it is is the basic operating system. Most horsemen assume that people already know their way around Windows, and are teaching people to do animations in Powerpoint.
Parelli et al are explaining how to boot up and where the shortcut keys are and how to use the mouse.

Plus, as a dog trainer friend of mine points out, there are a lot of people in the world who, no matter how hard you try to teach them, just *can't* read animal body language.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

I think I was composing my last post when you were composing yours.

I just wanted to add one thing to the above post to Annika. After I sent the original post I almost deleted it as I was afraid that you would take it the wrong way. I had played with Bob that night and had so much fun that I wanted to post something positive to the board after all the bad things that have been said. I am so glad you didn't. I am very lucky to be the one that was allowed to own this horse :D. He is the horse of a lifetime for me.

Terry

[EqTrainer]

Sure, easy. So why did I stumble around in the dark for 40 years, taking numerous lessons and clinics with people that anyone on this BB would recognize as "good" and yet never learned this stuff?

I disagree completely with your statement. There are legions of "good" trainers who simply overlook this aspect of horsemanship because the buying public thinks that showing, riding over fences, producing fancy upper-level dressage movements, yadda, yadda, is what horsemanship is about, and basic communication with the equine species takes a very back seat.

For all the things there are to dislike about the Parelli system (and the other marketeers), I will grant them this: the horse business is more aware today that there is a better way to interact with horses, and the relatively *few* to whom it comes naturally are no longer seen as mystics or freaks of nature; it IS possible to learn to do this better.

And who benefits the most? The horse. 'Nuf said.

Then they aren't *good* trainers. The operative word here was GOOD. Or PERHAPS you weren't a good learner. Sorrry to be harsh but you know, that is always a possibility! I personally find it useless to place blame at the feet of others, especially if I am writing the check.

Why did you stumble around for so long? That I cannot say. I always wonder this about people. Why *would* you take lessons and clinics for years and not "learn this stuff" - this stuff meaning, ground work and communications? 40 years is a long time to not realize you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Sannois]

As some of the people that come to Pat and Linda Parelli say . . . . my horse is perfect but . . .

I have one of those horses. Bob was perfect when he came to me. He was perfect when he had his clothes on . . . his halter or his bridle or saddle . . . but without those things he was and is dangerous. He has bitten me several times. One time on my neck, just above my collar bone. Actually picked me up. I was ready to send him back to his previous owner but am glad that I didn't.

I had seen the Parelli hoopla prior to getting Bob and actually had purchased the carrot stick, halter, lead rope, etc. but never really figured out how to use them. Through a fluke at Rolex, my husband and I got to spend a lot of quality time with Karen and David O'Connor and were seriously considering going to one of their camps. I knew that part of the clinic would include the seven games and knew that they were not the easiest things to learn. Turns out my new next door neighbor was a Parelli Level one graduate so she arranged for lessons.

The change in Bob is incredible to say the least. He was a hard case for the instructor. She was in awe of his beauty but he was rude on the ground and ran all over me. Now I can wiggle my finger and he just backs away. Or point in a direction and he moves that way. It is amazing.

Parelli is alot about hype but it is also a lot about helping horses and the people that love them. Bob is a much better horse because of Parelli. And I am a much better horse owner.

Flame away, but no karohbi stick jokes please.
does work and is beneficial in the right hands, my complaint is the delivery and approach on the part of the Parellis. Best of luck with your boy, Sounds like you have a new partnership with him!
:yes:

[Horsecrazy27]

Well, just MHO, but I think that Parelli, Roberts, and the rest of them are complete idiots. That whole flick-it-at-'em rope nonsense just pushes me over the edge. ...or maybe it's the legions of followers who insist that anybody not doing Parelli is abusive and doesn't know how to communicate with their horse. It doesn't take a special stick with a level 8 hot pink string attached to teach good ground manners and I resent that fact that all of you Parelli supporters insist that ALL show horses have terrible ground manners and are complete monsters to deal with. I'm sorry, but my 4 year old hunter is better schooled that just about any Parelli trained horse I have ever seen. If Parelli is such a genius horse trainer than how come not a single Parelli trained horse has ever reached the top in H/J or dressage competition?

Yes, I am making a lot of generalizations here - but I'm certainly not the only one. And no, this is not directed at those who understand that there are other methods out there. It's more directed at those of you who continue to insist that all H/J and Dressage people are abusive.


I hope you are not referring to me---as I have not pointed my fingers at anyone----just sharing thoughts. I have never met anyone personally that thinks that horses that aren't doing PP are useless and I for sure do not think that anyone NOT doing Parelli is abusive? Who told you this? I'm not a "follower", I'm just sharing my thoughts on what I have seen and APPRICIATED of his work. As I said about the RFD channel I watch them all, I like the Ultimate Cowboy race, the Clay Obrian Cooper Roping show, the Dressage Extentions...I like it all and APPRICIATE it all. I don't slam Paso Finos and they way they ride---Which I have NO understanding at all, but to have watched maybe 4 shows of them doing the "sound Deck"....and kinda baffeled, but I APPRICIATE it. Doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and ride like them---or doesn't mean I'm going to dog them.

Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?

Please, I'm not saying that he is the HORSE God, but I think he has things that should be appriciated----like his qualities as a human and how he has made a positive influence on many people who where at their last "straw" on their horse.

I have never said and I also have never heard that all horses are idiots unless Parelli trained????????

I only brought up what I have seen as a young adult because it really left an impression on me.......and remembering seeing the students treat their horses like their trainer, because that is what they were used to. From all the trainers I have seen abuse horses--I have also see them cherish their horses and do super well with them. My biggest point, is that when I was a youngster training and one is used to seeing some agressive behavior and sometimes to the point of no return----you start accepting that and copying that because it is what your used to. You know what I'm saying-=--I'm not being that clear, maybe the meds----but, see something that at first made you cringe---then you start seeing it on a daily basis, it becomes "okay".
Like my husband who was a police officer for 11 years----after a while, accident scenes didn't effect him as bad as they first did.


When I was talking about "abuse", I'm not talking about a whack with the hand, or whip, or spurs, or twitching.--or even a whoffel bat (spelling) that I read---(it probably would of been what PP used, if his "carrot stick" wasn't around.) I'm talking ABUSE....no food/water for 3 days, tied to a pole in the ground, beating the horse with a dressage whip across his face with 30 lashes because he is grinding his teeth, jumping a horse while it is dead lame, riding a horse to death (litterally), ect. I even can accept laying a horse down to teach them trust-----but, you get the horse down then beat the
-hit out of it???? These were done by people who are admired--people that I admired and trained with! They are basically good people that let themselves go over the edge. They have kids that look up to them that they teach--------these kids are growing up thinking that it is all okay????????

PP is trying to reach these people to help them learn that when they come to a fork in the road----take the high road.

Believe me, I'm NO push over with my horses---- I have a way about me that the first time I ask nicely----second, I'm no longer asking, I'm demanding.

Around 8 years ago when I met my husband, he would get bothered by how strict I was with my horses. Especially having a stallion, I didn't give 2nd chances and I was like living with a saftey first army sargent. When I found PP 2 years ago, it made me look at myself FIRST to see if I'm placing crossed wires on what I'm asking-----Now, I make sure I'm extra consistant and clear----with that and some of the communications that he has put out there to learn, I have come leaps and bonds with my horses. **and to make it clear, I have always had well behaved, happy horses....... As I said before, I was very natural around horses and seemed to naturally have an understanding of their communication------he just sent me to "grad" school.

I don't think he is the have all/end all-----but, there is something to learn from him.

I can tell by some post that those don't really know about PP...or even what he is teaching....they get caught up in how he talks, the music----or what ever instead of appriciating/learning something from him.

Those people have probably just seen newbie level one handlers.......PP is all about getting LIGHT. Just like for example:

The yo-yo game as he calls it. Which is to get the horse to back away with your fingers shaking.

1. You point your to your horse, look serious, stand confident and like you mean business. Have the rope loose over your arm with your "pointing" finger up to the air---shaking it-----if the horse doesn't back with in 3 sec., you shake the rope lightly using just your wrist for 3 sec., if the horse doesn't back, you shake it with your forearm 3 sec., again, if doesn't move in 3 sec, you step it up to your whole arm where the way the rope is designed, the heavy clip whacks them under their head....then they usually back. If they take even just a half a step, you are supposed to drop your hand, smile and that is their reward. Right away, You do it again. Horses learn usually after 3-7 times to back after the wrist wiggle....then about a dozen times, will usually back up with you shaking your finger at him with that --"back up or else look on your face." Therefore teaching the horse to back up with the least amount of conviencing. The other part of the "yo" is bringing them back....which you bend slightly forward with a welcoming smile on your face and pretend to be pulling the rope from hand to hand--for 3 sec, (no pressure on the rope), then if they don't step toward you, you add pressure with the same motion, then again if they don't come forward you stand your ground and hold the rope till pulling toward you till they take a step forward. All my horses love this and usually just have to bend and smile--they come to me.

I know his games are all named wierd things---but, I think he does this to make it "friendly".....and kid friendly. And could be part of his corny personality.

I think WE ALL have attributes to offer in this world----in this horsely world. Because you may not like the things he does--doesn't mean he doesn't have something to offer. He learn one thing from him---wouldn't it be worth it to stop, listen and not judge?

As I have aged, I have not always been so open----and matter of fact, used to put PP down because I saw a person try and teach newbies...doing things that they should not of been doing. But this person was NOT PP....and from what I have learned---it is not what he promotes either. It is like me judging you (Satnightlive) from a person who you desided to copy something that you did with your horse....then that person shared that info with 10 other people, then people that heard from those 10 people tried what you did with your horse----turns out it was not what you did....not even close---but, yet, I judge you because of them?? Would that be fair? No...would not be.


I just hate seeing people make fun of someone who is trying to be a positive outlet in the world......

[murphyluv]

Putting the flame suit on..
I took a parelli clinic once.. The instructor had some very good points, and some things have stuck with me, however there were some things I didn't like.

I agree w/ what people are saying about not making fun of something you've never tried or seriously looked into, or making generalizations (for both sides of the argument). I'm sure Parelli has helped a lot of people and horses along the way, and I think that's great. If you see him in person or any of his instructors teaching a clinic, I can see how it can make a lot of sense and help people. After watching some other clinicians I'm still scratching my head and wondering "what exactly did they do again??"

However, I see the other posters point as to how much marketing there is, and that Parelli is not a "cure-all", common "horse" sense IS. You cannot teach everyone the little nuances of horse behavior and when to release pressure, if they just don't get it and don't try hard enough. My problem is when someone does not actually take the time or money to do a clinic, but instead buy the materials (and gathering from what other folks have said, parelli's writing is hard to understand) and try to do it themselves. Unless you already have a really good understanding of horse behavior that would be hard to do.
Also, I have a problem w/ the fact that almost every single ad for Parelli that I see show someone NOT wearing a helmet. That is just not the image that if I were some genius horse trainer (which I'm obviously not) I would like to project. If they talk about safety, then why the hell are they going around jumping picnic tables bareback w/ no helmet?? that has nothing to do w/ trusting your horse.. If you have a problem with wearing a helmet, just watch the video "every ride, every time" and you will never even think about riding bareheaded again.

[Laurel&HollyFarm]

Putting the flame suit on..
I took a parelli clinic once.. The instructor had some very good points, and some things have stuck with me, however there were some things I didn't like.

I agree w/ what people are saying about not making fun of something you've never tried or seriously looked into, or making generalizations (for both sides of the argument). I'm sure Parelli has helped a lot of people and horses along the way, and I think that's great. If you see him in person or any of his instructors teaching a clinic, I can see how it can make a lot of sense and help people. After watching some other clinicians I'm still scratching my head and wondering "what exactly did they do again??"

However, I see the other posters point as to how much marketing there is, and that Parelli is not a "cure-all", common "horse" sense IS. You cannot teach everyone the little nuances of horse behavior and when to release pressure, if they just don't get it and don't try hard enough. My problem is when someone does not actually take the time or money to do a clinic, but instead buy the materials (and gathering from what other folks have said, parelli's writing is hard to understand) and try to do it themselves. Unless you already have a really good understanding of horse behavior that would be hard to do.
Also, I have a problem w/ the fact that almost every single ad for Parelli that I see show someone NOT wearing a helmet. That is just not the image that if I were some genius horse trainer (which I'm obviously not) I would like to project. If they talk about safety, then why the hell are they going around jumping picnic tables bareback w/ no helmet?? that has nothing to do w/ trusting your horse.. If you have a problem with wearing a helmet, just watch the video "every ride, every time" and you will never even think about riding bareheaded again.

I agree with the points that you make. As I mentioned in my opening post. I had to get help from an actual person before I understood how to use the tools and play the games. The videos and books are good for reinforcement but in my opinion are no substitute for learning first from a hands on instructor.

I also do not like the fact that they don't promote the use of helmets. They say make your horse safe and you won't need one. I just don't think you can make a flight animal that safe. That is one area I would like to see changed in their clinics, demonstrations, ads, videos, etc. It does distract from the good things they teach.

[TBLvr]

I would call myself a student of horsemanship - always trying to learn, always trying to get better results. Try to keep an open mind and realize that in the end, its the horse that grades both me and the methods I'm using.

As far as Pat Parelli is concerned, I think it really helps to seperate Pat Parelli from the business of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. And especially Linda Parelli!

Pat Parelli is - in my opinion - an extremely talented horseman blessed both with a gift of gab and having had some incredible teachers in his life (Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom Dorrance and others) - all of whom he continually credits. To watch a young Pat Parelli and see his passion and abilities is inspiring. His message is a good one. I've met him, been to the ranch, watched him and learned some great things.

On the other hand it's very easy to see how people can form negative opinions based on PNH's marketing and especially (imo) listening to Linda Parelli, who drives me nuts, especially with her "I don't wear a helmet because I have the protection of Savvy". Oh good God :eek: Its like this woman latched on to Pat Parelli and set out to make herself famous at his expense. She redo's alot of Pat's early work, replacing him with herself (and dumbing it down so much that PNH has a high number of certified trainers dropping out in disgust and going on their own) that if you didn't know better you'd think SHE was the reason for PNH.

[Horsecrazy27]

The helmet issue is a good one........ I'm one that is HORRIBLE about NOT wearing a helmet, unless I'm jumping. Which I know, I know---you can have a problem wether you jumping or not. That is my thing. PP is a cowboy----I think his "orgin" just doesn't do that. I don't know one single cowboy that wears a helmet???

NOT making excuses, because yes, I agree, at least make the people riding in the clinic wear helmets and encourage them for the use at home.

Speaking of how we all have something to add to this world===you have a good point. :)

[Horsecrazy27]

I would call myself a student of horsemanship - always trying to learn, always trying to get better results. Try to keep an open mind and realize that in the end, its the horse that grades both me and the methods I'm using.

As far as Pat Parelli is concerned, I think it really helps to seperate Pat Parelli from the business of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. And especially Linda Parelli!

Pat Parelli is - in my opinion - an extremely talented horseman blessed both with a gift of gab and having had some incredible teachers in his life (Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom Dorrance and others) - all of whom he continually credits. To watch a young Pat Parelli and see his passion and abilities is inspiring. His message is a good one. I've met him, been to the ranch, watched him and learned some great things.

On the other hand it's very easy to see how people can form negative opinions based on PNH's marketing and especially (imo) listening to Linda Parelli, who drives me nuts, especially with her "I don't wear a helmet because I have the protection of Savvy". Oh good God :eek: Its like this woman latched on to Pat Parelli and set out to make herself famous at his expense. She redo's alot of Pat's early work, replacing him with herself (and dumbing it down so much that PNH has a high number of certified trainers dropping out in disgust and going on their own) that if you didn't know better you'd think SHE was the reason for PNH.


I really like your expression of "dumbing it up"....I agree with this. I know there are some dense people in the world (I can SOMETIMES include myself into that catagory)....but, she really has added too much info on such a simple thing---- I like that phrase, "Keep it simple stupid", I do feel like she means well.... I have never heard her say that helmet qoute---that is very scary if she did. If I were in her spot----that would never come out of my mouth. I think also she puts too much human thoughts into things---gosh, what am I trying to say......

Sorry, my tooth is killing me---waiting for the vicadan to start its handy work!!

Anyway, that would be a good reason for me to want to come up and shake her and say---what are you saying---what are you allowing kids to think.

[Candle]

War Admiral- I don't think you're being fair. You're expecting these BNT's to do EVERYTHING with a horse, when they already teach them so much under saddle. A professional does not have time to teach a whole barnful of horses how to stand quietly for sheath cleaning, something that even years of teaching won't help some horses with. I also don't see anything wrong with tranq'ing a horse for a sheath cleaning. This is like saying a trainer at the track is a bad trainer because his or her OTTB that came to you doesn't know how to do something you think it should. They just don't have the hours in the day to teach every horse everything. That doesn't make Parelli any better because he teaches ground manners. He doesn't teach high level riding effectively for any discipline other than CTR or distance riding. *end rant*

[LetsRide]

[QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?
[QUOTE]



You believe that Pat Parelli trained David and Karen BEFORE they were riding/competing/winning at an international level?

:confused:

[murphyluv]

Amen to that! good point!

[Silence]

A lot of the people that follow Parelli get on my nerves..because those people believe he's god and his methods are the end all be all of horse training. Of course you find that with any trainer.

-Just a note about the above comment, I know not everybody that follows Parelli is like that.-

I myself will never use Parelli, I have no need to and can communicate with the horses that I ride/work with, without it.

I do have a friend that uses Parelli with 2 of her three horses. I respect her highly. She's not pushy about Parelli. She understands that the program doesn't work for everyone and every horse. Her 3rd horse...doesn't respond to the Parelli methods at all.

She will go far in the horse world as a trainer because she's dedicated and she reads each horse as an individual, instead of assuming they can all be trained one way.

[EventerAJ]

I have read this post and worked really hard at not replying...But. I have a pony gelding that was not taught personal space as a youngster. He would get in my space all the time. I even had a parelli "expert" do the rope wiggle with him. The pony thought it was a game. I finally got a whiffle ball bat and smacked him across the chest when he crowded me. We came to an understanding about life in a hurry.

I was asked during the whole horse whisperer craze if I whisper to my horses. I responded with yup I whisper, then I ask, then I demand.
LF


I haven't read the rest of this thread, but here I have to agree.

Whiffle bat >>> kohlrabi stick

Now before you accuse me of horse abuse, the whiffle bat is only for extreme cases-- the barn sour horse, the 3y/o "I'm bigger than you" stage, or any other severe (dangerous) disrespectful behavior. If I was the boss mare in the herd, I'd kick the living daylights out of the offender if he doesn't heed my warnings. Since I'm only a 100-lb human, my physicality is somewhat limited. Gimme a whiffle bat, though, and I can back up some of my "laws" (ie, you will NOT walk on me, you will NOT threaten to rear/spin, and I AM badder than you are!). The plastic bat doesn't hurt much, but the loud whallop is effective.

Again, I'm not about "dominating" horses. I much prefer to work together, harmoniously. But they are big creatures who may take advantage of you sometimes, and left uncontrolled it could be dangerous.

[LetsRide]

I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?

:confused:

[monstrpony]

Then they aren't *good* trainers. The operative word here was GOOD. Or PERHAPS you weren't a good learner. Sorrry to be harsh but you know, that is always a possibility! I personally find it useless to place blame at the feet of others, especially if I am writing the check.

Why did you stumble around for so long? That I cannot say. I always wonder this about people. Why *would* you take lessons and clinics for years and not "learn this stuff" - this stuff meaning, ground work and communications? 40 years is a long time to not realize you're barking up the wrong tree.

I don't know why this is such a hot button issue for you, but I'll try once more.

Yes, they were good trainers. As I said, several are names that anyone here would recognize and respect. And I don't think either they nor I thought at the time that I wasn't having a successful experience. It's probably true that if I'd been a better student, I'd have gotten further in this game, but I'm not a complete dolt, either. The idea of doing groundwork or exploring communication from the horse's perspective just never came up.

Perhaps these concepts were elements of their personal horsemanship and are what made them such awe-inspiring riders. I suspect they just had their own interpretation of it and thought it separate from teaching a rider to improve their dressage, or jump cross-country. It never seemed to occur to them to take a moment to check and see where students were with it before delving into the "fun stuff". Whatever. In all of those "successful" experiences, I didn't get this out of my exposure to them. (I know for a fact that one of them considers much of the horsemanship we're discussing here to be nonsense; that person's interaction with horses is much more dictatorial and human-centered, and yet this person is a successful upper-level eventer and has competed internationally. Another international dressage rider understands it so instinctively that he cannot verbalize it, and doesn't realize what an important missing link it is in his teaching).

So, while I may have been "wandering" for 40 years, it hasn't been in a total equestrian desert. But having been recently exposed to this aspect of horsemanship, I really do wish it had come up sooner in my formal training. In fact, I recognize elements of it from my carefree childhood riding experiences, and feel it had been taken away from me by some of the formal instruction I've received as an adult. It's a true joy to be rediscovering it.

I agree that it isn't necessarily within the scope of a show trainer's responsibilities to teach a horse to accept something like sheath cleaning w/o drugs. But wouldn't it be nice if they all fostered *handling* horses in a way that didn't make drugging horses for regular maintenance experiences (shoeing, vet work, and, yes, sheath cleaning) a necessity? The horsemanship that Parelli and others espouse demonstrates that this kind of chemical assistance is a shortcut, yet it's tolerated as common practice. Oh, sure--it's easier to bridge that gap with a calm, sensible Quarter Horse; much more time consuming and requiring a more astute horseman to accomplish the same with an elite athlete. But given how much time and money we put into those elite athletes to get them to the FEI level, why do we tolerate shortcuts in the most basic elements of their education? Because doing the work is boring, and the shortcuts are more convenient? So much for horsemanship.

I have a friend who imported a talented gelding from Germany, trained to the point of starting FEI level work at the time she bought him. She's now had him for close to 10 years and *still* can't body-clip him without heavy sedation. What kind of "horsemanship" produces a horse with that kind of training, combined with that kind of ground-handling non-skills?

Sorry, but you will have a difficult time convincing me that I've had the misfortune of being exposed soley to the small, exclusive group of trainers who's riding skills are negated by the absence of consideration of ground-work and equine-centered communication, and are hence not "good" trainers.

[LetsRide]

I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?

:confused:


You mean with all the hoopla there is NOT one horse Pat Parelli has personally trained that competes in ANY FEI level equestrian event? Not even one FEI reiner? Not even one FEI show jumper? Not even one FEI level dressage horse? No FEI level riders he got there either? Call me flabbergasted!

:sigh:

[Silence]

You mean with all the hoopla there is NOT one horse Pat Parelli has personally trained that competes in ANY FEI level equestrian event? Not even one FEI reiner? Not even one FEI show jumper? Not even one FEI level dressage horse? No FEI level riders he got there either? Call me flabbergasted!

:sigh:

Not that I know of o.o

-goes to google it-

[EqTrainer]

I don't know why this is such a hot button issue for you, but I'll try once more.

I think it is because I hate it when people feel that the classical dressage system has failed them. In your case, I would assert that you have every right to have gone seeking somewhere else, because now I remember.. well, see below.

Yes, they were good trainers. As I said, several are names that anyone here would recognize and respect. And I don't think either they nor I thought at the time that I wasn't having a successful experience. It's probably true that if I'd been a better student, I'd have gotten further in this game, but I'm not a complete dolt, either. The idea of doing groundwork or exploring communication from the horse's perspective just never came up.

Ah yes. We have actually touched upon this before.. and I think I told you then, and I stand by it now - the people who were on your list of notables, I would not leave my horse with for five minutes. And my opinion is based on direct experience with the two that come to mind. The tack nosebands and stallion beatings in parking lots just leave me cold...

Perhaps these concepts were elements of their personal horsemanship and are what made them such awe-inspiring riders.

<snipped for brevity> I think they are, *in spite of it*.

So, while I may have been "wandering" for 40 years, it hasn't been in a total equestrian desert. But having been recently exposed to this aspect of horsemanship, I really do wish it had come up sooner in my formal training. In fact, I recognize elements of it from my carefree childhood riding experiences, and feel it had been taken away from me by some of the formal instruction I've received as an adult. It's a true joy to be rediscovering it.

It should have, it should have been part of your entire learning experience. It may also be that as you've matured and changed thru your life, things that did not seem as important to you, now have taken precendence over what seemed to be priority before. I know that if I could go back to some of my previous trainers - knowing what I know now - that my questions would be different! But apparently I had to go through that, to get to here. Hope that makes sense.

I agree that it isn't necessarily within the scope of a show trainer's responsibilities to teach a horse to accept something like sheath cleaning w/o drugs. But wouldn't it be nice if they all fostered *handling* horses in a way that didn't make drugging horses for regular maintenance experiences (shoeing, vet work, and, yes, sheath cleaning) a necessity? The horsemanship that Parelli and others espouse demonstrates that this kind of chemical assistance is a shortcut, yet it's tolerated as common practice. Oh, sure--it's easier to bridge that gap with a calm, sensible Quarter Horse; much more time consuming and requiring a more astute horseman to accomplish the same with an elite athlete. But given how much time and money we put into those elite athletes to get them to the FEI level, why do we tolerate shortcuts in the most basic elements of their education? Because doing the work is boring, and the shortcuts are more convenient? So much for horsemanship.

Oh, I think in general this is a two way failure. Many, many owner are no more interested in what the actual reality of "good manners" really means.. they are either oblivious (you know, "it's CUTE when he rubs his head on me"!) or they really don't care about all that, they just want to leg yield <LOL> I can also honestly say, that IME few people really want to KNOW what it takes to learn to ride well.. I have a student who came from a well-known barn in our area and the things she does NOT know are alarming.. the way her horse was 'trained' is alarming.. they assumed she was another pathetic sheep following the herd. Now she is surrounded by information and she's like a sponge, it's fabulous. And she is learning so much, so fast. BUT she is ONE WOMAN out of .. oh, 20 or so?!! And maybe it's just that now she's ready for it?

Anyway, I say it's a two-way failure, because a lot of trainers are willing to forego the true basics to satisfy their customers desires for tangible "right now" progress (read: lateral work and their horse being "on the bit", a program that sounds "right" (forward! straight!)).. they are unwilling to confront the gravy train because it's paying the bills, or perhaps they see that the person will not change, but will just go somewhere else if they try to insist. And so on it goes.. I remember hearing, in the barn of one of the people mentioned - her telling a student that she needed to read a certain chapter in a certain book and the student snapping back at her "I don't have time to read, that's why I pay you". What came first, the chicken, or the egg? All I know is that student and her two horses in training were not asked to leave.

I have a friend who imported a talented gelding from Germany, trained to the point of starting FEI level work at the time she bought him. She's now had him for close to 10 years and *still* can't body-clip him without heavy sedation. What kind of "horsemanship" produces a horse with that kind of training, combined with that kind of ground-handling non-skills?

Well, it's hard to say. Maybe I could body clip him just fine. Is it her? Is it him? Every relationship with a horse is so unique.

Sorry, but you will have a difficult time convincing me that I've had the misfortune of being exposed soley to the small, exclusive group of trainers who's riding skills are negated by the absence of consideration of ground-work and equine-centered communication, and are hence not "good" trainers.

Unfortunately I think you have been exposed to a group of big fish in a small pond. I call them good business women.

I guess in the end I have to say I am glad that you found what you needed, that I am sorry you had to wait for it, and that I understand your point of view better now. Thanks for sharing it.

[murphyluv]

Eqtrainer:
"Anyway, I say it's a two-way failure, because a lot of trainers are willing to forego the true basics to satisfy their customers desires for tangible "right now" progress (read: lateral work and their horse being "on the bit", a program that sounds "right" (forward! straight!)).. they are unwilling to confront the gravy train because it's paying the bills, or perhaps they see that the person will not change, but will just go somewhere else if they try to insist. And so on it goes.. I remember hearing, in the barn of one of the people mentioned - her telling a student that she needed to read a certain chapter in a certain book and the student snapping back at her "I don't have time to read, that's why I pay you". What came first, the chicken, or the egg? All I know is that student and her two horses in training were not asked to leave."

You bring up such good points, EqTrainer. Maybe it is not neccessarily *all* the blame on the trainers *all* the time that people are picking on. With all the discussion and posts and such on people learning to ride and show BEFORE they learn how to be horsepeople b/c they have the money to do so, or are looking to make money, I'm surprised this hasn't been said already (unless I missed something).

[Percheron X]

I think as horse people each of us should strive to become our own examples of good horse people and be careful not to place anyone else up too high on a pedestal as someone who we should be like. Learn from as many people and horses as you can, take in everything that works for you, and learn from everything that doesn't work. Keep an open mind, never allow yourself to believe that you don't have anything more to learn. Take every opportunity to listen to what other people have to say, and observe how they do things, even when what you are seeing or hearing seems wrong, you may still glean some item of information that you didn't already know, or help reinforce the validity of that which you already held to be true.

[monstrpony]

Definitely a two-way failure. I had thoughts of what George Morris has been saying for ages, while I was writing that. Perhaps it's just commercialism at its best; the almighty dollar and immediate gratification have take over and left horsemanship behind all the way around.

Yes, I'm confident that my own maturity is a big factor here. But I also don't recall being offered the information and passing it up, either. I don't recall the specific issues that you mention, but would agree that I wouldn't put a horse with any of those people today. So I guess on some level, I agree about how "good" they really are, and it's the commercialism that keeps their names up in lights.

I don't feel I've abandoned dressage, regardless of what saddle and bridle I ride with today; I'm just careful about how I define it, and try to distinguish between dressage and Dressage, if you get my drift. The big fish practice Dressage. Anyhow, my experience "away" from it has improved my understanding of it, without doubt. I watched a lesson yesterday, given by one of the few instructors that I still respect. The lesson was with a relative beginner who was lucky enough to find a wonderful older gelding who is making his re-rider experience just about as good as it can be, and the lesson yesterday was among the first attempts to introduce him to getting the horse legitimately round. It was fascinating how the words had completely different meaning to me now, in terms of the use and quality of the contact (the emphasis of the instruction this day was on the contact; the instructor was following with a long whip to take care of the forward, and was very explicit that the instruction was being done in parts for clarity and focus, but must ultimately be put together into a whole--that god for wonderful older geldings). Yes, a lot of what I heard this time has to do with my maturity, but if the basic horsemanship is what's allowed me to see these things more clearly (and correctly), then it has value no matter what one is teaching or being taught.

Which is why, in particular, I take issue with dressage people who believe they have the corner on the market and diss all horsemanship that is being done outside of their "arena" as being entirely useless, silly or counter-productive. There are almost as many "flavors" of horsemanship as there are of dressage/Dressage. ;):D

[Horsecrazy27]

[QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?
[QUOTE]



You believe that Pat Parelli trained David and Karen BEFORE they were riding/competing/winning at an international level?

:confused:

No, I didn't say that.....they currently use it and have have accomplished more with their horses---either at home or on a personal basis and from the video's I have seen with them and PP, they are excited about the program.

I feel like as horse people we thrive on learning--- don't we? Because in the horse world, as soon as you think you know EVERYTHING, horses prove to you that you don't know everything. For myself, I like to see how others do things----as I said before, what works for one horse, may not work for another and if you have seen something/heard something that someone else tried that worked---why not try it or expose yourself to new experiances??????


I'm so confused at why people don't want to learn new things????????

So, you don't like the hype, the way he talks----but, he has something to offer----if you don't think so----then your basically discrediting his many years as a horse person. To me, someone who has been training horses (no matter what style) for 50+ years, been exposed to 100's of trainers and thousands of horses is going to have some useful information somewhere. I'm sure he has had his hands on more horses than I in his years is 20 + more years than my 30.

[Horsecrazy27]

I consider PP as a tool......... not has a sure fire way to get to the Olympics????? Why are some people even talking about that??????? It is a tool, to improve your horsemanship and abilities..... Some naturally have this, others have to learn.....the games are to help people learn to do this. If you naturally have the "gift", don't put it down for others who don't naturally have the gift to have this communication on their own.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

mnstrypony - I know where you are coming from. I was out of horses for 20 years before I got Ted - off the track, undeveloped, so much baggage we had to pay a porter to haul it all. And I certainly came with my own packed bags as well.

And I tried very hard to do what I thought was "right." And some things just didn't sit well. So I came to a point where I knew there were gaps, I knew there was..."more," without any real clue of how to go about obtaining the help.

I count myself so incredibly fortunate that I am at the barn I am at now. My lessons are very different from lessons I've had elsewhere - there is almost always a ground component - some days I don't ride. My eye has been educated - she is the first person who carefully coached me to a better understanding of movement and fitness. What a concept to realize that self carriage extended to simply walking with them on a lead rope and asking for a halt.

Not many people in the area know about her, and many of those that do (at least in the dressage community), dismiss her. Before I went to this barn, a well meaning acquaintance told me, "I have a friend who rides with her, all she does is go around in circles, and she can't even do that well."

But oh, have my eyes been opened. And I have come to realize how much I can learn, how much better a horsewoman I can become. And the proof is in Ted.

So I don't need a carrot stick or stickers in the saavy book. I have a shorter balanced whip for riding and a longer one for in hand and long reining. I have a surcingle. I have side reins. And my saddle and Sprenger snaffle. And with these tools, with my trainer's help, we are making significant progress.

I can tell you right off the bat, playing with a carrot stick is not going to help you make the connection between your body movements, your horse, and your riding. You need someone who understands the classical concepts of how to get there - whether they be dressage, Western, whatever.

[Chanter]

Yeah, like the PP's & OC's are still the best of buds. The song line, "I ran, I ran so far away," sort of comes to mind... *cough cough*

[LetsRide]

[QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2069254][QUOTE=LetsRide;2067895][QUOTE=Horsecrazy27;2067685]
Your comment about why a PP hasn't made it to higher levels of H/J---what about the Olympic Riders the "O'conners?


No, I didn't say that.....they currently use it and have have accomplished more with their horses---either at home or on a personal basis and from the video's I have seen with them and PP, they are excited about the program.

QUOTE]


What exactly did they accomplish that you write was 'more with their horses' during their association with Parelli in those videos you watched?

The Parelli's used the O'Connor's as another marketing hype tool but it was it seems to have been very short lived (on the O'Connors part). Of course I am sure the O'Connors were paid quite well! They were promoting doing several tours and they held a few very expensive clinics together. As far as I recall it seemed to end there. I do not think Karen and David are now associated with the Parelli program in ANY way (correct me if I am wrong). So, they made a video back then that the Parelli's are still selling?

You have got to realize that when celebrities (in any field) are paid really big bucks to endorse ANY product or ANY company, that their sponsors might expect them to express a little enthusiasm about the product or company? Honestly, if the O'Connors thought that the whole Parelli concept is truly so great; then why are they no longer associated with that company? Why was their association so short lived? Inquiring minds honestly want to know?

:)

[Chevalnoir]

I would be very interested in reading the list of all of the horses and or riders competing in any FEI equine sport that Pat Parelli trained BEFORE those horses and riders were competing at the FEI level?

I don't think there are any - so what? I don't think anyone advocates going to the Parellis to get to the Olympics. However, most of us aren't going to the Olympics regardless of who we train with - but many of us, who don't have the luxury of an army of grooms to deal with all the day to day stuff our horses require, *do* need help in teaching our horses some of the more mundane things like loading on a trailer, standing quietly while tied, standing quietly for the farrier/vet/dentist, being respectful of our personal space, etc, etc.

I don't think any amount of dressage or jumping lessons will help in those areas, but a little bit of correct groundwork sure will. I don't think it matters whether instruction in this area is from the Parellis or Clinton Anderson or any of the other NH guys, but I do think it is an area where the English riding disciplines fall rather short. I suspect this has to do with most of the people who wrote the texts on Dressage and Jumping having access to the aforementioned army of grooms, which were (and in many stables still are) considered to be rather expendable - so horses didn't need to be as safe as possible on the ground, and many still aren't.

Witness the poster who said that many horses can't be trained to permit the cleaning of their sheath even after years of work! I don't doubt her, it can be very hard to convince a horse who has got away with intimidating humans on the ground for years to change his ways. But the fact is, being calm and comfortable while having *every* part of their body handled is something a young horse can, and should, learn before the saddle ever goes on.

I think there is a real place for people like the Parellis in helping those of us who either try to raise young horses so there aren't gaping holes in their basic manners, or else try to retrain older horses to address the gaping holes that are there in spite of their under saddle work.

I'm not going to the Olympics, neither is my horse - but *anybody* can touch him anywhere, he will stand quietly while someone sticks needles in him (very handy just last week, when he required penicillin shots for an infection - don't think the barn owner would have been half so willing to do some of those for me if he required three strong men and a twitch to get the needle in), he'll walk on and off a trailer quietly, come when called, stick his head in the bridle and grab the bit if it's held anywhere within his reach, stand at the mounting block for however long it takes someone to scramble up (handy when giving the odd elderly or handicapped person pony rides), let you worm him while loose in the field, etc. etc. None of those things get rewarded with pretty ribbons, but they sure make his and my day to day life easier.

I'm not a Parelli groupie, and it hasn't been entirely Parelli stuff that has got him to this point, but I have used some of the 7 games among other things and found them useful.

[LetsRide]

Yeah, like the PP's & OC's are still the best of buds. The song line, "I ran, I ran so far away," sort of comes to mind... *cough cough*


Chanter

Do you happen to know exactly how fast the O'Connors 'ran'? Do you know if they had to recover with the help of a ten-step-recovery-program? If so, is the O'Connor recovery program currently available in a video series? Or?

:)

[SaturdayNightLive]

I consider PP as a tool......... not has a sure fire way to get to the Olympics????? Why are some people even talking about that???????

I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.

[Candle]

I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.


yeah, but were the o'connors using the PICNIC TABLE??????? ( i heard a rumor that pat and linda were doing it under the picnic table with a kohlrabi stick, did you hear that one?)

[Horsecrazy27]

I just figured that I would ask seeing as how people on here are saying that the classical methods of training don't work. Seriously, if PP is the genius trainer that everyone thinks he is than why aren't there any PP trained horses competing on the higher levels?

I measure a trainer by their success - not by how popular they are.

Oh, and P.S., the O'Conners were round penning their horses long before anybody had ever heard of PP.

First of all "Success" has a different definition depending on who your talking to. To MOST people, having a safe experiance with thier horse, an ultra bonding experiance or finally getting through to a horse---IS SUCCESS. Are all horses made to be dressage grand prix horses? Or Grand Prix Jumpers Or reiners? No---and niether are all riders. Between the 2 barns that I'm at....over 150 horses between the 2......only 30 of those horses are being trained at a semi serious level. Like me and just about everyone else I know---they use a VARIETY of tools....probably also like me from a variety of people they have read about/schooled with/talked to/heard of and trained with.

I'm NOT saying that Parelli is GOD!??!!!!!!! No---- I would never think that or spread that-----that is rediculous. No body on earth is as far as I'm concerned is. Am I saying that Parelli is the only way? NO
Did I say---or does PP say, do this and you will be in the Olympics next year???????? NO
In my opinion most of his training is tools...... not teaching dressage.... or teaching reining .... or teaching eventing..... or teaching H/J ....... or teaching Western Pleasure...... I have never seen that advertised or heard him preach that. He is there to hopefully help things get better by teaching some of the tools that he has learned over the years--stuff that worked for him---or things that he learned from others!!
Did I say that everyone should do just PP, that all other methods suck, that dressage is for loosers, that jumping with out a helmet is groovey!!! That PP is the only one that can lunge a horse? AND that is all Parelli does? (NOT) I know so many trainers that are successful here that use SOME of his tools.....with young horses---or beginner riders.

So, why do you all think that I'm saying HE is the only way???????????? Because I support some of his training ideas/methods/thoughts? I'm soooooooo confused?????? Why are you all judging all these people??????????? Have you had over 40 years of experiance with millions of people and thousands of thousands of horses? To me that is a great opportunity to learn from all kinds of people and horses....every horse has a lesson to teach us---as well as people.

Okay, here are my thoughts.

1. PP has been a horseman for over 40 years, has had contact or trained by many other horseman that have been around horses a lot longer than his 40 years---schooling in many areas of horsemanship, PP has had/owned/worked with/been wrote about thousands of thousands of horses. I'm sorry, but anyone who has that much hands on with so many horses over the years and been able to work with so many great trainers-----he has to have some good points to pass on. I have owned/bred/schooled around 100 horses and I still WANT to learn and will never learn it all. I don't know it all and never will. I like to watch and appriciate other horse people.....even when they drive me nuts----I still can probably pick up something useful out of knowing them.

So, what I'm getting from all these negative posters is that there is NOTHING that they could benefit from PP....nothing he could say, do, share, that could help them in some way. To me that is really really sad. So, in YOUR opinion it is so wrong for me to think that I don't know everything from being around horses for 30 years? To you it is a terrible thing to still be humble and open to other horse peoples ideas. God forbid if I ever turn into one of those know it alls that no one likes.

2. The Oconners, be it by false advertising--it sure seemed to me like they really liked what PP was saying/teaching....so, they I guess are liars and false advertisers and according to you didn't grab one tool from the PP. But, they sure had me convienced that they were picking up some useful tools as they were riding their horses over jumps and giving pointers back to PP who was also jumping. It was a lot of fun to watch and see their personalities. So, if that was all a cover up and way to earn extra cash....then too bad for them. That wouldn't show much charactor in my book. I choose NOT to believe that that is how the Oconners are. I choose to believe in what I saw on the tape....they seemed like they were good people sharing ideas back and forth on horses and riding.

3. What/who is saying classical methods don't work??????? Did I say that I don't use classical methods? NO!! I have been riding under instruction since the age of 11 and I'm 36. I have had some of the best trainers in the state and have loved every minute. I have taken clinics and audited MANY more. Some people agree with---others not, but I have ALWAYS been able to take something home to try and benefit from every single horse person I have met. I have trained one of my own horses --with the help of a dressage instructor/clinics/friends/higher level riders to 4th level----this same horse I would trail ride, track mountian lions with, drive, team pin, he did low level eventing, and low level h/j-----BEFORE I ever even heard of Parelli. My horses are well rounded--- I believe it is because I am well rounded. I think just doing dressage (IMHO--for my own personal horses) will burn them out ----I try and keep their lives fun and interesting. My horses are super happy, kind and have the desire to learn everytime I ride them.

I'm not snooty and I do not put down things that others enjoy or learn from?????? Who are you all to judge those who seek help in many avenues????? (not directed to all, but the ones who seem to judge every single sentence that I type--or that anyone else says about Parelli) So, because I did a clinic with Jane Savoy---are you going to disc her to? Her methods---some of her riding techniques are different than the "classical"...so, is she going to get rocks thrown at her too? I would hope not, because she is a kind beautiful woman who obviously loves horses and loves to teach. She had some great pointers and it shouldn't matter what the persons name is...if someone post on here about them learning something----it should be not be down graded or judged because of who they went to or learned from.

I find this strange that ADULTS can't support each other. I thought we all had a common love of horses!!!!!! I know I got into horses because they are a constant challange---a constant learning experiance. So, knowing that there is so much to learn and no one knows everything to know about horses----- NO ONE!! So, why wouldn't you be open enough to allow yourself to learn from a variety of people? Would you shut off a learning mode when you talk to a cowboy who is 90 years old, 4 th generation rancher, just because he doesn't do dressage????????? I would ask so many questions on the history, home remedies, stories????

I'm sorry, but this has really upset me and confused me. I don't understand people----it seems that in this world everyone wants to focus on bad things and seem to feed off negaitive energy. Instead of finding the good in things, people search with a microscope to find something bad....then they go on and on----enjoying every moment of talking about the bad??????? SO wierd. We should be happy to talk about happy things, not let the happy things, make us jealous and resentful. Sorry to the original poster who was posting her accomplishments----- "you go girl"!! Keep up the good work and positive thoughs.

Oh well..... can't change the world. But, I can stop paying attention to negative posts. :)

[SaturdayNightLive]

Horsecrazy27 - I was not referring specifically to you. You seem to be taking this very personally and I'm not sure why? I was simply disagreeing with your point - nothing personal meant.

[Percheron X]

I'm sorry, but this has really upset me and confused me. I don't understand people----it seems that in this world everyone wants to focus on bad things and seem to feed off negaitive energy. Instead of finding the good in things, people search with a microscope to find something bad....then they go on and on----enjoying every moment of talking about the bad??????? SO wierd. We should be happy to talk about happy things, not let the happy things, make us jealous and resentful. Sorry to the original poster who was posting her accomplishments----- "you go girl"!! Keep up the good work and positive thoughs.

Oh well..... can't change the world. But, I can stop paying attention to negative posts. :)

Its human nature to focus on negative things... Negative things are an obstacle to happiness, and by focusing on them, they are made more manageable. If no one ever spoke up against things they thought were wrong, then the people doing the wrong things would go unopposed and continue to do wrong things.

I do agree that people should focus on the positive more, it's healthy to affirm the positive things that you have in your life.

If you start a thread called "The Happy Thread", I'll post on it... :D

[Chanter]

In all seriousness, how can anyone follow like a disciple a man, PP, that openly braggarts at his circus shows how the facility owners have requested/DEMANDED that he NOT do the picnic table jumping circus act due to insurance liabilities, yet he openly brags to the audience how he is to defy their request & does the jump anyway?! He obviously has NO respect for others; others that could have the very living sued out them should PP/his horse screw up the picnic table act.

Think about it, what if it were you that could be sued for every living thing you owned for PP chose to ignore your insurance concern? He could give a rats butt about you or anyone else. It is all about h-i-m. What are the odds he would put his feet up on your coffee table too, even if you asked him not to?

Quite frankly, yes, I do think the man is a d!ck. And here all this time my beef had mainly just been with the hideously crappy driving of his cell phone using disciples in my old neighbourhood/his neighbourhood.


*glad I finally got that off my chest*

[cryslea]

In all seriousness, how can anyone follow like a disciple a man, PP, that openly braggarts at his circus shows how the facility owners have requested/DEMANDED that he NOT do the picnic table jumping circus act due to insurance liabilities, yet he openly brags to the audience how he is to defy their request & does the jump anyway?! He obviously has NO respect for others; others that could have the very living sued out them should PP/his horse screw up the picnic table act.
[/I]

Holy crap, really? If that's true, that's seriously awful.

My big beef is that he does stuff like jumping picnic tables in the first place. It doesn't seem terribly safe to me.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Holy crap, really? If that's true, that's seriously awful.

My big beef is that he does stuff like jumping picnic tables in the first place. It doesn't seem terribly safe to me.

And his equitation is god awful. ;)

[Chipngrace]

I don't get how some of you eventers and jumpers think jumping a picnic table is a big deal?

I was on a hunter pace this fall with Curb Appeal from this forum. The last obsticals were located in this field FILLED with cross country jumps, everything you can imagine... logs, gates, ditches, banks, a boat.. A PICNIC TABLE, of all things.

Curb Appeal's horse is 14.3 Morgan, so not very big for your average event horse, and he jumped the picnic table like it was no big deal. Just cantered right over it. I didn't do it because this was my first ever exposure to cross country and I stuck with the smaller, narrower obsticals because my mare jumps "cute" she isn't overly scopey.

Parelli has helped one of my horses too, and I suppose the other. My mare had gotten so dominant and nasty she was attacking other horses in the pasture, let alone how she was when I was handling her. She tends to go into "Gracie zone" and not listen. Not to mention attacking another horse at sorting and throwing and stepping on me in the process. I am VERY lucky the woman sitting on that other horse was my instructor at the time, and also a Parelli enthusiast.

We worked through a lot with her, but what it was was ME learning about ME. *I* made a change for the better. I asserted myself with my horse, and it branched out to other areas in my life. I left a barn where the BO and I had an unhealthy relationship. I left a job where I was not appreciated and didn't get a promotion because I didn't go out drinking with the boss every weekend like the other candidates. I did a makeover in every aspect of my life, through learning what I had to do with my horse. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's true for me. Before I left the unhealthy barn I was "told" not to do Parelli anymore, this was after my fresh long yearling did something, I can't remember what, and BO lunged him for a half an hour with a chain on his nose. Totally out of character for that horse and my other too, just goes to show the tone of this barn affecting the animals.

Anyway... it has helped a lot. It's an ongoing battle for me because my mare will test the limit each and every ride and she tries to get to me. Oh, yeah, and she's been sent to a professional trainer for a tuneup... it didn't work. Not the trainers fault, he's fixed lots of problem horses, she isn't a problem horse, she's just Gracie, and I needed the tools on learning how to deal with her, not someone changing her.

As far as my young horse, he just plain enjoys the games. He's always sweet to me and he is 100% MY horse, he's totally dedicated to me and I never have problems with him. I think he likes the games because we then speak a common language and he does think of it as play time, not the way people lunge their horse and let them buck for a half hour play time, but it engages his mind and makes him think. I want him a little less dependent on me for things, but we'll get there.

People sure get down on somebody else for making a buck. Who cares that he sells things to make money? So does Bill Gates, and I'd say that's worked out rather well for him and everyone who uses his products. You don't NEED his equipment to use his method, I don't even own a book or tape or anything, I learned it all from someone else... but I did end up buying his halter, lead and carrot stick. Why? Because I bought lots of knock offs and nothing was of the same quality. It's high quality equipment.

[LMH]

Ohhhhhhhhh the monthly Parelli thread!

It is no secret I LOVE Parelli-I love the program, I love the DVDs, LOVE the new Horse Behavior Program.

I don't take it personally that some people in Parelli just don't get it-heck most people in most things just don't get it:lol:

I have met Linda and she is a very kind and sincere person. Carol Coppinger is one of the instructors, and man, that woman can ride the pants off most people I know.

Sorry, others can disagree, complain and moan about the marketing, demean those who do it...but I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.

Just spreading a little 'positive' during the Holiday season:)

Off to grab my carrot stick and have a blast today!

[cryslea]

I don't get how some of you eventers and jumpers think jumping a picnic table is a big deal?

I was on a hunter pace this fall with Curb Appeal from this forum. The last obsticals were located in this field FILLED with cross country jumps, everything you can imagine... logs, gates, ditches, banks, a boat.. A PICNIC TABLE, of all things.


Well, I'm a re-rider, and I don't jump (although I would LOVE to event someday in the future, and your description only solidifies that- sounds exactly like the kind of jumping I did as a kid!), but I was under the impression that jumps should be able to knock down in case a horse hit them. Y'know, so as not to get the horse hung up or hurt or anything?

I'm not anti or pro Parelli. The games helped my boy learn some manners, so I guess I'm in the camp of "anything that works, I'm game for."

[Chanter]

YES, it could not be more true!!! Been there, heard with my own ears, saw it with my own eyes. Truly disgraceful that he boasts of how he is to totally go against management of the facility, especially in regard to the insurance issue.

Yep, truth be told I went to a Parelli circus. Once. I should have known better, as I already knew their/their disciples behaviour in the neighbourhood. I thought surely he put his best face forward at his shows. Obviously not.


[quote=cryslea;2070327]Holy crap, really? If that's true, that's seriously awful.

[MySparrow]

"This is why we honor her with chocolate at every lesson."

I'm going to make sure my students see this post! :lol:

[PiedPiper]

Well, I'm a re-rider, and I don't jump (although I would LOVE to event someday in the future, and your description only solidifies that- sounds exactly like the kind of jumping I did as a kid!), but I was under the impression that jumps should be able to knock down in case a horse hit them. Y'know, so as not to get the horse hung up or hurt or anything?

I'm not anti or pro Parelli. The games helped my boy learn some manners, so I guess I'm in the camp of "anything that works, I'm game for."

That might be the case in a ring but no, cross country jumps are not intended to fall down per say ( I know we can talk about fragible pins but that does not apply to the lower levels). I solid, well built cross country jump is designed to take a knock from a horse and the horse will slid over it. Yes you can hang a leg and there is a potential for flipping but most jumps are set up with a proper groundline built in and set in away that the horse understands the question and how to solve it. Plus horses tend to be much more respectful of solid jumps that poles and standards.

I personally have no problem with picnic tables b/c they are set up nicely to be jumped if the base is filled in. You have the seat set out as the ground line point, a nice angle to the top of the table and then the same on the other side. They jump nicely.

What I would have a problem with is someone doing it sans helmet, when specifically told not to as per insurance, does not know how to jump it properly or instructs or encourages others who are not proper trained. Then that is inexcusable.

[LMH]

Interesting-owners have DEMANDED he not do the picnic tables...it seems to me if it really were such an issue, the Parelli's would be asked not to return to those facilities.

[Chanter]

Hey LMH, how do you know that they haven't? :confused:

We the audience only know what he, PP, had chosen to boast to us during his circus act about this issue. As said, straight from his mouth to what, several hundred pairs of ears in the audience. In fact he told this story whilst he was jumping back & forth over the picnic table. So typical of his attitude of all else are idiots but him. Of course he will jump picnic tables because after all he is the all knowing, all seeing PP. Yeah, he is a 'pp' at right. A real d!ck.

Anyone that would openly boast of defying facility management over insurance issues is an ar$e. Pardon, make that a d!ck.

[Horsecrazy27]

Horsecrazy27 - I was not referring specifically to you. You seem to be taking this very personally and I'm not sure why? I was simply disagreeing with your point - nothing personal meant.

Sorry, if I misunderstood people talking---thought and it appeared they were talking about my thoughts in general--since some of my thoughts were quoted.

I don't take people not liking PP personally, I take people being out right mean and spreading rumors to others offensively. To, me that is not needed and is very sad. I think you should be able to post your success on this board----no matter if it is your own tools, PP tools, Jane Savoy Tools, Jack Danials tools........why should those who use PP and have a positive experiance be subjected to rudeness????????

So, next time one of you have a great show and move up a level, accomplish something that you feel is worth while---how would you feel if you were critiqued or made fun of---is your sweat/tears/hard work more valuble than theres?

I don't get this.

Yes, I'm going to think of a happy post and start a new thread...... I like to sign on and laugh like crazy--instead of feel bad for others and defend who I think is basically a good man. He is not perfect, but I believe he has a decent soul and cares about his job.

By the way, the "Carrot Stick" was something that he thought of to keep people safe. He had always used his hands---but, thought it put people in the area of "danger"...so, he thought of the carrot stick to have a safe distance from the horse when using it---protecting people from horse hooves and teeth. Thought I'd mention that too---to help others understand.

[Percheron X]

With all the zillions of Parelli threads here lately, I think I've finally have it all figured out.

Parelli is paint by numbers horsemanship for those who don't have time to become horseman. It's the fast food equivalent of learning to understand horses. Parelli is a genius.... he figured out a way to package horsemanship in colorful packaging, and included a free toy.

It's fruit loops, captain crunch , and cocopuffs. It's everything the American consumer has come to expect in our buy it now prepackaged ready-to-eat society.

Parell is to horsemanship what Bob Ross was to panting.

And yes I do agree that Parelli is "based on" sound fundamental horsemanship...

Well just call me old fashioned.

[Sandy M]

Holy crap, really? If that's true, that's seriously awful.

My big beef is that he does stuff like jumping picnic tables in the first place. It doesn't seem terribly safe to me.


I have no problem with jumping picnic tables - they are low and wide - not big, and they are solid. My problem is with jumping picnic tables BADLY, bareback, without a helmet.

[Sandy M]

By the way, the "Carrot Stick" was something that he thought of to keep people safe. He had always used his hands---but, thought it put people in the area of "danger"...so, he thought of the carrot stick to have a safe distance from the horse when using it---protecting people from horse hooves and teeth. Thought I'd mention that too---to help others understand.


Something he thought of, alright. And overcharges for. Heaven forbid he suggest someone use a dressage or buggy whip (that one can get for $10), rather than a trade-marked PP carrot stick for $29.95! I'm sure safety is his highest concern. Not.

[Aggie4Bar]

It was through a NH trainer(not parelli) that I learned I was missing something when dealing with a difficult character ( dominant, biter, cranky, dogfood candidate if I had listened to some) so I have to give credit where credit is due(Chris Irwin) for an amazing turn around….[SNIP]

…. I don't think people get it until they experience a 'difficult character' for want of a better term. I didn't know what I didn't know until I met my match with one particular horse. Handled many many horses over the years including working at boarding barns and owning my own facility and didn't know that I was so unaware

Ditto! And my credit goes to Mark Rashid because my difficult character could not, would not, be dealt with using standard NH techniques. She is a horse that will give 110% if you give 110%, but you cannot try to dominate her. I took for granted how easy it was assert an alpha position and “kindly coerce” (for lack of better term) horses into behaving until she came along. She really sent me back to the drawing board. Or rather, I should say, Mark Rashid’s books gave me the confidence to set aside my toolbox and say, “Okay, horse, teach me your method of teaching you.”

Prior to the abandonment of ego and choosing to let this horse lead the way, I attended a “Savvy” playgroup session to observe Parelliphiles and their horses in action. This took much persuasion because I already had an opinion (very negative!) of Parelli. Boy was I ever surprised to learn they all felt the same way. :cool: It turned out they were normal people who decided to take his program and run with it, taking additional input from dozens of other NH practitioners. I’d been expecting rabid Parelli devotees. Now that I think about it, I think the fact that they were so relaxed and open-minded in their training was due to the experience within the group. The legalistic Parelli (or other NH method) followers tend to be relative newcomers to the horse scene who’ve not yet learned to think on their feet.

[Aggie4Bar]

By the way, the "Carrot Stick" was something that he thought of to keep people safe. He had always used his hands---but, thought it put people in the area of "danger"...so, he thought of the carrot stick to have a safe distance from the horse when using it---protecting people from horse hooves and teeth. Thought I'd mention that too---to help others understand.Looks more to me like some version of whip training with an NH spin on it. And a hefty profit margin. ;)

[Horsecrazy27]

Something he thought of, alright. And overcharges for. Heaven forbid he suggest someone use a dressage or buggy whip (that one can get for $10), rather than a trade-marked PP carrot stick for $29.95! I'm sure safety is his highest concern. Not.

The "Carrot stick" is hard yet SLLIGHTLY flexable. In one game....your required to add pressure till the horse moves away------sometimes a horse resist and you have to add more pressure...a Buggy Whip, dressage whip would simply break or be to flexable to accomplish what is desired. I have tried in a pinch and the whip will only bend so much, then either break or pop out of my hand or snap agains my horse. (working with horse that hadn't been exposed to this game yet) Also, in some of the other games...it could sting a horse using a whip.

When people have their mind made up---there is nothing to change that. :) Good with me!

And for people who want a fast course to horseman ship......I can agree with some people using that....but, for others that have had great horseman ship for 30 years or more---find it and learn from it with an open mind. Leave the gimmicks asside, the stuff that doesn't suit your personallity or program, but take the stuff that is useful (which I have seen Clinton do, that Chris "Ries" (can't rember the last name), so many use the same things....I have found it to be a finesse to add the icing on the cake...so to speak. It is love what I have accomplished in the last 2 years---- more tricks than actual schooling, but the horses love the new games and challanges. I usually will do this as a warm up --then do my normal work. It creates a great mood between the horse and I and gives me a chance to see thier "mood" for the day. Works great for me. Funny, because I was one of the Parelli HATERS 3 years ago....saw some nasty dangerous things....but, these were people that clearly did not know how to teach and were teaching WAY outside the qualifications of the riders. I had a friend who for years has been telling me about Parelli and her horses......I let it go in one ear and out. I finally watched PP himself.....ordered for the heck of it Level one. (the new one with all the explanations and demos)..... The ground level -level one, really impressed me......and when using the games, my horses are very light--and the switch to the saddle has been nice...they are light, off my leg...probably from some of the parelli stuff and my classical dressage training.

[Percheron X]

a Buggy Whip, dressage whip would simply break or be to flexable to accomplish what is desired. I have tried in a pinch and the whip will only bend so much, then either break or pop out of my hand or snap agains my horse.

I've used the butt end of a dressage whip to train horses not to crowd me while leading. I can't imagine how anyone would ever need to use more force than that.... I'd like to know what these games are as I've never had any problems doing ground work using anything other than my body language, a long lead line, a lunge or dressage whip.

[Sandy M]

The "Carrot stick" is hard yet SLLIGHTLY flexable. In one game....your required to add pressure till the horse moves away------sometimes a horse resist and you have to add more pressure...a Buggy Whip, dressage whip would simply break or be to flexable to accomplish what is desired. I have tried in a pinch and the whip will only bend so much, then either break or pop out of my hand or snap agains my horse. (working with horse that hadn't been exposed to this game yet) Also, in some of the other games...it could sting a horse using a whip.
.


Dressage whips come in all sorts of degrees of stiffness and I actually prefer a fairly stiff one - but I've never found one to be "too flexible" or break when used to ask a horse to do pressure exercises (again, exercises that one can see illustrated in J. Y. Young's "schooling for young riders" circa 1950s-60s, and it wasn't new then).

[TBLvr]

The Parelli "carrot stick" (God I hate these cutsey names!) is actually a golf club, or at least a club shaft with a golf club grip on it. Instead of a club head it has a wide leather loop on the end. Pretty stiff.

[Sandy M]

The Parelli "carrot stick" (God I hate these cutsey names!) is actually a golf club, or at least a club shaft with a golf club grip on it. Instead of a club head it has a wide leather loop on the end. Pretty stiff.


The ones I've seen were more like PVC. Still you don't NEED a $30 golf club shaft to teacha horse to give to pressure.

[TBLvr]

Lots of stuff we don't need. But a good rope and a good stick are nice to have.

Edited to add: They're made of fiberglass, not PVC. At least the PNH sticks are at least.

[Horsecrazy27]

Lots of stuff we don't need. But a good rope and a good stick are nice to have.

Edited to add: They're made of fiberglass, not PVC. At least the PNH sticks are at least.


As I stated above, FIBERGLASS, flexable, but if used wrong I'm sure it would break. I have never broke one, so not sure how much it would take. But, I have had a horse walk on it..and it is still alive.

The games (I also had the stupid names he uses....but, I think he is devoloping the whole picture to have fun with the horse--there for games)

Anyway, were developed from watching horses communicate---using the ways they communicate to other horses in developing tools for us to communicate with them.

Thie first game...You are the "horse" making the real horse move his feet. I can't remember what he calls it----???? But, it is where you pick pressure points, like the shoulder/hip, rib, point under the ear-where the jaw connects and first basically point to it...if the horse doesn't move after 3 seconds, apply it to the hair, giving it 3 sec to move off, then enough pressure to feel it in the muscles....give it 3 sec.....then if still doesn't move, you apply direct pressure pretty hard and hold till they move---then as soon as they step over---rubbing and then start again. Teaching them to be soft, knowing that the more intense pressure is coming if they don't move over to the slightest request. I have only had one horse take more than 5 times pushing as hard as I could. The dressage whip I was using (the butt was pretty thick (round wise...like maybe a 2 inch round circle----I like the stick because the end is not pointy, but not so round---your taken a bit more serious. With this now, I can walk to my horse and point to her should from 5 feet with no carrot stick and she will move over--then point to her haunches and she moves those....now I can take both hands and do a pushing motion to the air and she will side pass, I can then bend over and she will turn back towards me and I can push the air towards her face and she backs....I can also grab her tail and with rythem have her back---it is really fun and adds more to the lunging experiance---or warm up.

The other, the "driving" game....you can use your hand or a rope, but I like the stick because it is not flinging something in their face like a rope----and if I used a whip---I just don't see that as friendly because if they they swing their head into it--it may sting, because it is a whip--thin and such. The carrot stick is thick enought that it won't sting, but won't hurt them either if used properly. I have more control of of the carrot stick.. Especially for hroses that are not used to this. Here is how I started....I would point to her head for instance with a bounce (lack of a better word) to basically say move over----next, if no movement after 3 sec, I tap lightly to the upper portion of her neck---if still not moving over, tap harder....I have never had a horse go pass the tapping lightly and not move them over. Then you rub them---reward. He always says, first air, then hair--can't remember what he says after that. See, I have taken what I like from him then added my version.

With my horses I usually saddle, and warm them up with lots of work on the lunge line doing my basic classical warm up--from my years of dressage work. (around 15 -20 ) Then I "play" with them for about 5 min. I will have them mirror me--like by trotting next to me while running, no line or lead rope, but she will trot with me, stop with me back with me, I can run around her and she will stay in the same place but circling with me running around her, doing side passes, the "squeeze game" where I point, then make her turn and then go back the other way....about 10 feet away from the fence. Maybe I like it because it warms me up!! I like how it gives you a chance to see what mood the horse is in to work----even more so than what the lunge line showed. Then I get on and ride. Take off the tack, groom and give treats and start with the next horse. That is all I used, so maybe I'm not a person who should be commenting so much on Parelli in the first place..... I just like the things it taught me to do with mine...and my horses love the games. I think they like that the best out of the whole work out.....they look like they think they are so smart and like to show off. :)

[Ghazzu]

I always thought they were just overpriced hog sticks.
(Which are inexpensive and come in lots of colors...)

[SaturdayNightLive]

But, it is where you pick pressure points, like the shoulder/hip, rib, point under the ear-where the jaw connects and first basically point to it...if the horse doesn't move after 3 seconds, apply it to the hair, giving it 3 sec to move off, then enough pressure to feel it in the muscles....give it 3 sec.....then if still doesn't move, you apply direct pressure pretty hard and hold till they move---then as soon as they step over---rubbing and then start again.

You apply direct pressure to the horse's face with a fiberglass stick? Ouch.

[TBLvr]

You apply direct pressure to the horse's face with a fiberglass stick? Ouch.

Nope - the end of the stick has a large flattened leather loop piece on it.

Yes, fiberglass.... golf club? Never seen that.


I'm not a golfer by any stretch, but if you look at the end of the PNH sticks (the end of the grip) there is a golf club company logo on it.

Cattle or hog sticks work OK too, especially if you attach a loop to the end.