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shadowdancer
Dec. 8, 2006, 11:57 AM
Have a look at Ken Braddick's article in the December issue of HorseSport USA at www.horsesportusa.com.

Velvet
Dec. 8, 2006, 12:18 PM
Um, where? Is this a teaser? Is it to get me to pay to read it? Or is it out there for free? I didn't see anything out there that resembled the header on this subject.

mjhco
Dec. 8, 2006, 12:24 PM
The article was toward the back of the magazine. (This has to be one of th e most annoying ways to read an online magazine I have every seen.)

I am disappointed in the apparent discord on the team.

LynxMynx
Dec. 8, 2006, 12:40 PM
While based on that article it appears that Morse was less than a team player at times, I don't know why she's being attacked for celebrating? Despite the fact that the score put her in the bottom half, a 64% isn't something that needs to be shoved under the carpet.

Coreene
Dec. 8, 2006, 01:44 PM
Well, amen to that story. And about bloody time as well.

fiona
Dec. 8, 2006, 02:59 PM
You know what, when i read this kind of story i want to slap all involved. There are a trillion people that would sell their soul to ride in an Olympic/World event why can't they just do the job, get along and be a bit humble.

Equibrit
Dec. 8, 2006, 03:17 PM
How do you read this "story"?

physical.energy
Dec. 8, 2006, 03:42 PM
a tiger can not change it's stripes! or is that spots:winkgrin: Oh Leslie, Leslie, Leslie, it must be hard. Kyra is such a solid human being, full of morals and principles. I would have thought more of that would have rubbed off. It is hard to be around Kyra and not come away a better person.

kip
Dec. 8, 2006, 03:49 PM
After reading the story I was left with a lot of unanswered questions. If you are going to write an attack against a very respected rider you should include more of the facts. All I got from the story was that Morse was arguing with a lot of people and training with Kyra K. instead of Klaus which is something she has been doing for years. We never found out what she was arguing? I felt like both sides of the story were not covered and that something was lacking. I am not saying that Morse was innocent. I just felt like I couldn't formulate any opinion from the article. Is it me or was the article written poorly?

rileyt
Dec. 8, 2006, 04:12 PM
Does anyone have the full story? The article only alludes to some dischord, and Leslie's "forceful" warmup. What really happened?

Coreene? You seem to have inside info... spill it please! :)

YoungFilly
Dec. 8, 2006, 05:12 PM
I was going to read it, but man, what an annoying site. I don't have anything to add except READ Debbie McDonalds new book. I just finished it, and it puts her slant on whats happening at the international level. Its not pretty. I would imagine the pressure has got to be enormous. Even amongst team mates. :no:

Dalfan
Dec. 8, 2006, 06:20 PM
How do you read this "story"?

That Morse was fomenting discord and not a team player. That's how I read it. I'd like the "other side" as well.

MEP
Dec. 8, 2006, 07:18 PM
After reading the story I was left with a lot of unanswered questions. If you are going to write an attack against a very respected rider you should include more of the facts. All I got from the story was that Morse was arguing with a lot of people and training with Kyra K. instead of Klaus which is something she has been doing for years. We never found out what she was arguing? I felt like both sides of the story were not covered and that something was lacking. I am not saying that Morse was innocent. I just felt like I couldn't formulate any opinion from the article. Is it me or was the article written poorly?

I agree. This seems to be an article for those already in the know (i.e., in Wellington). Not to present an objective report of what happened so that the rest of us know what's going on with the team so that we can form reasonable opinions.

shinysocal
Dec. 8, 2006, 07:31 PM
It is very surprising that Mr. Braddick went out on a limb and wrote about the "one bad apple" on the US Team. If he would have gone into detail about the entire series of events, he would have to have written a book:lol:
Seriously- I was there and it was not pretty. The code of conduct rules need to be modified, and the threats of "you will be hearing from my lawyer" need to be the first thing that gets you thrown off the team.:eek:

Dalfan
Dec. 8, 2006, 07:36 PM
Can you elaborate a bit??

shinysocal
Dec. 8, 2006, 07:55 PM
I'm not sure that it is a good idea to elaborate too much on this subject- I don't want to be accused of slander. I will say that public drunkeness, abusing your horse in the warm -up, and complete disrespect for your team coach and other team members should NEVER be tolerated- and I believe that USEF and the USET has taken the appropriate steps to ensure that this scenario does not happen again. There is no I in team as they say:D

SillyHorse
Dec. 8, 2006, 09:46 PM
Public drunkeness is not allowed? I'll be declining that invite to join the team. Dang! :mad:

Horsedances
Dec. 9, 2006, 12:39 PM
I have seen Lisa Wilcox ride at many occassions, some of her rides are also on my website. During (for example) the Week of the Stallions at Zwolle Lisa was almost their every year. Inside and outside the ring I never noticed that she had a nasty behaviour. I have met much worser people in the 20 years I travelled with the dressage-circus. I have seen fysical fights between riders and judges, riders and trainers etc...
Lisa was never part of this.

But maybe she is changed the last few years.

I also want to stipulate that the dressage-sport is not a team-sport and will never become a teamsport. Offcourse you go and watch your team-mates ride, but..... you always hope she or he does worse than you do. It's not nice to be the scratch result and having to go home after just one ride !


Theo

tarragon
Dec. 9, 2006, 02:04 PM
Theo, I believe they are referring to another American rider, Leslie Morse, who was on the US team for the WEG, definitely not Lisa Wilcox.

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 9, 2006, 03:17 PM
Definitely not Ms. Wilcox, who is absolutely lovely.

shadowdancer
Dec. 9, 2006, 03:30 PM
Please! Let's not get names mixed up on this one. I, like Shinysocal was a witness to much of what Ken Braddick alludes to. He was very brave to write this article. And no, it was not badly written...just carefully said. This is a story that needs telling, unfortunately everyone is afraid of the consequences.

ESG
Dec. 9, 2006, 04:16 PM
Didn't read the article, but am curious about something; why does "the story need telling"? Are we so bored with actually watching the riders and the horses perform that we're to follow them around and wait for them to screw up outside the ring as well? Tell me showjumpers don't behave badly from time to time (anyone remember McLain Ward's debacle at Aachen a few years back?) and then I'll give a little more credence to whoever writes gossip-mongering, sensationalist twaddle about our teams. :no:

greysandbays
Dec. 9, 2006, 04:32 PM
If these teams want the financial support of us peons, we have a right to know what shenanigans they are getting into on our nickle. I know I'm in no hurry to give a "gift" to help fund an FEI team if they're going to be acting like a bunch of hoodlums.

enlightened529
Dec. 9, 2006, 04:57 PM
Well, unless one has been in the barns at these competitions as a participant on the US team as chef, rider, farrier, groom or otherwise one really doesn't have first hand knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. It is mostly VERY team oriented and supportive however, one bad apple can ruin the pie. Sometimes a story does need to be told so that people can be aware of what the bad apple is up to back there. This is not the first time this person has been naughty. It is however, the first time she has been called out for the behavior in a publication so directly. To have so much in her hands and to throw it away is a disgrace. Must be too much pressure for her to handle. Not everyone is cracked up to carry that much responsibility.
What people saw in the warm up is only a piece of the story and if that is enough to horrify them then think of what it is like behind the scenes.. not a pretty sight.

physical.energy
Dec. 9, 2006, 05:14 PM
I don't want to be accused of slander. I will say that public drunkeness, :D

Tee heee heee. I've seen many O International riders plow back the drink to be shnokered all night and be on their mounts at 8am riding quite well for the special. Perhaps she cannot handle her hangovers, human interaction and riding too!:lol:

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 9, 2006, 05:31 PM
Does someone who witnessed what occurred care to elaborate or is everyone going to just engage in polite innuendo, which in fact could lead some people to think things that are worse than whatever did in fact occur (I was not there so I would not know one way or the other).

murphyluv
Dec. 9, 2006, 07:41 PM
Does someone who witnessed what occurred care to elaborate or is everyone going to just engage in polite innuendo, which in fact could lead some people to think things that are worse than whatever did in fact occur (I was not there so I would not know one way or the other).

Thank you! Exactly what I was thinking. I know practically zilch about all the politics of international competition. I know the names, how everyone does, etc, but not what really goes on. If someone actually saw it first-hand, let us know. we won't judge you- if you saw it first hand and only state the facts, you're not lying or spreading rumours.
However, those who spread stuff and didn't see it first-hand, you could be dirtying the image of someone that other people look up to.
Look, no one is perfect. If someone rides well, is a good sportsman and treats their horses well, the horse looks happy, they do well but maybe not in the top 3 100% of the time, hell I'd still look up to them, b/c hey, they're representing us at the top level!
However, I have to say that I used to think a particular team member (as of yet not mentioned in this thread) seemed to be a nice person from what I see (being that in magazines, videos, etc) but recently found out from an eye witness that this person had a poor horse piaffing for an hour straight, horse was lathered but he was still beating it into doing so. GRRR-- now that is something I would not tolerate. The occasional selfish moment of celebrating a "decent" test that did not help your team members at all- who cares? Until I hear from an eye witness that this person was actually publicly drunk, abusing the horse in warm-up, and publicly rude and disrespectful towards coach and team members, I'm reserving judgement. And you also never know what goes on in someone's personal life that can cause them to "lose" it in public, so to speak.

Dalfan
Dec. 9, 2006, 07:52 PM
Yes, I'm especially interested to know what went on in the warmup. Did she get rough with her horse?

YoungFilly
Dec. 9, 2006, 08:08 PM
Does someone who witnessed what occurred care to elaborate or is everyone going to just engage in polite innuendo, which in fact could lead some people to think things that are worse than whatever did in fact occur (I was not there so I would not know one way or the other).

I agree, I do not want to hear about one of our team members being smeared without any real info. Granted, the writer of the article is not unknown, and maybe it does need to be said, but geez. Give her a break before you know all the information. I can only imagine the stress level competing at that level. If she wanted to train with her very tried and true trainer, well.... sometimes personal loyalties are very important.

Regular posters, take a look at how many posts the OP and some of the supporters have. This is a total bone to pick with Leslie herself. How many other bb's are you all targeting, or is the COTH just the biggest one?

I do not know Leslie, but I want to hear the other side of the story first. I want to hear her teammates comments. If she was truely bad, they would probably say so in not so many words.

And, by the way, I did suffer through getting through that website to read the article.

And, Isn't Leslie the lowest man on the totem pole? Could she be a threat to other members of the team?

physical.energy
Dec. 9, 2006, 08:12 PM
I was not at that particular competition......so I have no inside info this time.
I have known Leslie since we were 17. Tigers & spots.

equestrianrider
Dec. 9, 2006, 08:19 PM
i would also like to know what happened, the website is taking forever....

YoungFilly
Dec. 9, 2006, 08:26 PM
I was not at that particular competition......so I have no inside info this time.
I have known Leslie since we were 17. Tigers & spots.

PE I totally respect what your saying. BUT, lets see what the people that came out of the woodwork want to say.

naters
Dec. 9, 2006, 10:47 PM
Wow, this is like the equine paparazzi!!!

Velvet
Dec. 9, 2006, 11:51 PM
Wow, this is like the equine paparazzi!!!


Not paparazzi, it's the equine version of The National Enquirer. :rolleyes:

If there's abuse to a horse in the warm up, let the FEI get on her about it and correct the situation. (Heck, in the 70s there were plenty of eventing accounts that would make your hair stand up, but they were taking care of by the officials.)

Getting drunk and disorderly seems to be par for the course for many an international judge. :lol: ;) So what's wrong with the rider doing it? I'm kidding, of course. If they were drunk and disorderly, have them hauled up before the USEF or any other international governing body for the conduct of a national team's members. They might want to get after Bodie Miller (sp?) too. :lol: :lol:

Sabine
Dec. 9, 2006, 11:52 PM
Theo- this is about LESLIE MORSE- not LISA WILCOX.


Lisa is great...Leslie- well did not behave so well.....:(




(
I have seen Lisa Wilcox ride at many occassions, some of her rides are also on my website. During (for example) the Week of the Stallions at Zwolle Lisa was almost their every year. Inside and outside the ring I never noticed that she had a nasty behaviour. I have met much worser people in the 20 years I travelled with the dressage-circus. I have seen fysical fights between riders and judges, riders and trainers etc...
Lisa was never part of this.

But maybe she is changed the last few years.

I also want to stipulate that the dressage-sport is not a team-sport and will never become a teamsport. Offcourse you go and watch your team-mates ride, but..... you always hope she or he does worse than you do. It's not nice to be the scratch result and having to go home after just one ride !


Theo

Velvet
Dec. 9, 2006, 11:58 PM
I guess I just wanted to add one more thing. While there is a team aspect in this, typically it is all about the individual, and even in the international competitions the team scores are achieved by individual rides and then those riders with the higher scores go on for individual awards/accolades. So the mixing of team and individual in this might not be worth it anymore. Maybe the sport should change at the international level to only and always be about individual rides. Forget the team events/scores. :yes:

Sabine
Dec. 10, 2006, 12:01 AM
Didn't read the article, but am curious about something; why does "the story need telling"? Are we so bored with actually watching the riders and the horses perform that we're to follow them around and wait for them to screw up outside the ring as well? Tell me showjumpers don't behave badly from time to time (anyone remember McLain Ward's debacle at Aachen a few years back?) and then I'll give a little more credence to whoever writes gossip-mongering, sensationalist twaddle about our teams. :no:

I think we are witnessing the first serious 'course correction' and since it's published- it will be known to all.
Conduct like this will no longer be tolerated, and I think it is a very good message to send to all lucky ones that get invited to join the team and use our dollars to compete and become famous.
1. respect your team
2. respect your team coach
3. don't abuse your horse in the warmup
4. know how to conduct yourself safely in social situations with alcohol.

Adamantane
Dec. 10, 2006, 12:13 AM
(This has to be one of the most annoying ways to read an online magazine I have ever seen.)

Amen to that, except perhaps that the word annoying is probably unduly charitable and restrained.:yes:

Adamantane
Dec. 10, 2006, 12:50 AM
I found the article to be frustrating in that as others have posted, it was pretty much impossible to figure out what the unprofessional conduct was.

I don't judge the rightness of an argument by the number of adherents to each side, so if there was discord, without specifics who knows who might be in the right or in the wrong, or even whether the issues were of any real consequence. I've been in organizations where 'peace at any price' was the order of the day and watched as the organization began to melt down because of it, when nobody with sufficient authority could muster the leadership needed to sort it out. It takes guts to insist that fundamental issues not be papered over, and sometimes to get resolution its necessary to raise a little cain. On the other hand, PsITA can be vocal and disruptive with no valid reason whatever.

And there is public drunkenness and public drunkenness. This can be in the eye of the beholder, especially if some underlying dispute carries over through the social hour and voices disinhibited by alcohol are raised. Public displays of emotion always make observers uneasy.

Excessive harshness with a horse is always totally unacceptable behavior at any level and in any venue. Whenever and wherever I've seen it -- fortunately not often -- nobody not directly related to the horse and rider ever seems to say or do a thing; they just get nervous and try to look the other way only to gossip about it among themselves afterward in whispers.

I have never once seen somebody in public call the offender out on the spot and ask them just what the hell they think they're doing, or what they expect to accomplish, which is damned odd behavior considering how strongly most horse people hold and voice their opinions on other topics much less fundamental than abuse.:mad:

Rusty Stirrup
Dec. 10, 2006, 08:00 AM
Tee heee heee. I've seen many O International riders plow back the drink to be shnokered all night and be on their mounts at 8am riding quite well for the special. Perhaps she cannot handle her hangovers, human interaction and riding too!:lol:

I used to rub horses for a rider who couldn't win unless she was half snokered!

As far as the reading the article, once I figured out how to get the pages to stay put, it wasn't so bad, but I thought I was reading a "Homes and Land" booklet for a while there. I guess that's why it's free on the web. It's a real estate guide with a few articles thrown in.

ESG
Dec. 10, 2006, 08:44 AM
I think we are witnessing the first serious 'course correction' and since it's published- it will be known to all.

I seriously doubt it. There's always flack between team members, on any team. And with four or five prima donnas in the mix, I can't see how it could be avoided. American riders always strike sparks off one another, on any team. Look at that speed skater who decided he wouldn't race for the relay - he got a real warm reception, eh? Coaches weren't any happier with him than the other skaters, but nothing bad happened to him. And nothing bad will happen to Leslie Morse, either. I think this article is yellow journalism of the worst kind. As someone else said, the National Enquirer would have been proud of this article. :rolleyes:


Conduct like this will no longer be tolerated, and I think it is a very good message to send to all lucky ones that get invited to join the team and use our dollars to compete and become famous.

Why would you think that? It's all part and parcel of the artistic temperament. And we all know that showing horses ain't nothin' but show business. :D



1. respect your team
2. respect your team coach
3. don't abuse your horse in the warmup
4. know how to conduct yourself safely in social situations with alcohol.

And if we got our knickers in a twist, every time an athlete ignored the above, we'd all go about with permanent wedgies. This is a tempest in a teapot, and the jerk that wrote the article needed space to fill his glorified advertising mag. Sheesh - as if Sidelines weren't enough - now we have this.........publication. :no:

arnika
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:26 AM
Not knowing any of the facts/people here and not being willing to suffer through the website, I have to say I find it shameful that five people are willing to make insinuations about a rider on a public BB. Then either disappear, make it clear that they don't know what happened or refuse to spit it out.

It seems pretty clear to me that the above have had some personal problems with the rider and are taking advantage of the situation to "get a little of their own back".


Coreene:
Well, amen to that story. And about bloody time as well.



physical.energy:
a tiger can not change it's stripes! or is that spots:winkgrin: Oh Leslie, Leslie, Leslie, it must be hard. Kyra is such a solid human being, full of morals and principles. I would have thought more of that would have rubbed off. It is hard to be around Kyra and not come away a better person.

I was not at that particular competition......so I have no inside info this time.



shinysocal:
It is very surprising that Mr. Braddick went out on a limb and wrote about the "one bad apple" on the US Team. If he would have gone into detail about the entire series of events, he would have to have written a book:lol:
Seriously- I was there and it was not pretty. The code of conduct rules need to be modified, and the threats of "you will be hearing from my lawyer" need to be the first thing that gets you thrown off the team.:eek:



shinysocal:
I'm not sure that it is a good idea to elaborate too much on this subject- I don't want to be accused of slander. I will say that public drunkeness, abusing your horse in the warm -up, and complete disrespect for your team coach and other team members should NEVER be tolerated- and I believe that USEF and the USET has taken the appropriate steps to ensure that this scenario does not happen again. There is no I in team as they say:D



shadowdancer:
Code of Conduct Problems in the Dressage Team?
Have a look at Ken Braddick's article in the December issue of HorseSport USA at www.horsesportusa.com (http://www.horsesportusa.com).

I, like Shinysocal was a witness to much of what Ken Braddick alludes to. He was very brave to write this article. And no, it was not badly written...just carefully said. This is a story that needs telling, unfortunately everyone is afraid of the consequences.


Sabine:
I think we are witnessing the first serious 'course correction' and since it's published- it will be known to all.
Conduct like this will no longer be tolerated, and I think it is a very good message to send to all lucky ones that get invited to join the team and use our dollars to compete and become famous.
1. respect your team
2. respect your team coach
3. don't abuse your horse in the warmup
4. know how to conduct yourself safely in social situations with alcohol

soloudinhere
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:31 AM
I have to say I find it shameful that five people are willing to make insinuations about a rider on a public BB...


It seems pretty clear to me that the above have had some personal problems with the rider and are taking advantage of the situation to "get a little of their own back".

If the insinuations are true, there's nothing wrong with making them. It's only if the insinuations are false that there is a problem- and if it's already been published, it's a reasonable assumption that enough people know what's being said is the truth to print a story like that.


just because someone might know more details about what happened or have been following the story more closely than you have doesn't mean they have some kind of vendetta. They aren't exactly spreading rumors if what supposedly happened really did happen.

CarrieK
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:50 AM
They might want to get after Bodie Miller
Duuuuuude!

Adamantane
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:56 AM
If the insinuations are true, there's nothing wrong with making them. It's only if the insinuations are false that there is a problem- and if it's already been published, it's a reasonable assumption that enough people know what's being said is the truth to print a story like that.

Insinuations can be true on the face of it but wholly misleading out of context. Remember all those ungrateful ill-mannered nasty American rustics kicking up such a fuss rather than to do as they were told and pay their taxes to King George's government in London like good lads. After all, that's what it looked like if you were an outsider.

If enough people know what's being said is the truth, then there's no reason not to provide enough information so everybody can 'get it.'

For my part, what doesn't make any sense at all is the lead-in, namely the inexplicably triumphant reaction to what seemed to be anything but a triumphant ride. What followed in the article offered no insight whatever on that still mysterious action. The only thing I can think of that might possibly square with that fact is if against her better judgment she followed to the letter some directive with which she strongly disagreed, and the poor outcome was exactly as she had predicted, so even in defeat she felt a measure of vindication, as in "OK, hot shot, I did it your way and look what happened! What did I tell you?!" (Of course to do that would be both unprofessional and passive-aggressive in the extreme.)

What's the point in writing an article which raises more questions than it answers, or which to be understood requires the reader send away for a secret decoder ring?!

arnika
Dec. 10, 2006, 10:44 AM
Alterageous:
If the insinuations are true, there's nothing wrong with making them.

I find it interesting that you have to post that statement as an alter. I find insinuations uncalled for, period, no matter who or what they are about. Either state what you know to be true or refrain from commenting. Just because something is in print does not make it true or unbiased.

I'm not saying the article is false, just that without specifics being noted it seems very one-sided and I'm not seeing anything more being added except personal bias.

physical.energy
Dec. 10, 2006, 01:45 PM
There's always flack between team members, on any team. And with four or five prima donnas in the mix, I can't see how it could be avoided.

American riders always strike sparks off one another, on any team.


Why would you think that? It's all part and parcel of the artistic temperament. And we all know that showing horses ain't nothin' but show business. :D

And if we got our knickers in a twist, every time an athlete ignored the above, we'd all go about with permanent wedgies. This is a tempest in a teapot, and the jerk that wrote the article needed space to fill his glorified advertising mag. Sheesh - as if Sidelines weren't enough - now we have this.........publication. :no:

Wow, somemone speaks as though she has been a participant on a team behind the iron curtain. These comments show a complete disrespect for our team members and their character.
I have been on the backside over more than 20 years and I can assure you....these comments ARE SO WRONG! :(
We have had many teams, that I have been a part of and none of the above statements are anywhere near true. In fact couldn't be further from the truth. More often than not the team members are unified and supportive of one another.
Frankly, in any team that I have been involved with not one team member showed disrespect to fellow team members, coaches, judges, or any show officials. These statements make me angry to think someone on this BB might think this is the reality of our team. If one has never been involved in the US team and has no first hand knowledge of our team conduct in international competition, how can one make such rediculous statements. It is not normal for the team members to be at odds or disrespectful.
A huge part of being on the team is sportsmanship..... being able to participate with your team mates at heart as well. Guenter, Steffan, Debbie, Lisa, Carroll, Robert, Hilda to name just a few all have been on the team more than once because they know how to work together for the good of the whole.(forgive me for those other USET members that have been on the team more than once that I left out). They were asked back because they knew how to play and work well with others and with the other athletes. These people are cut from a different cloth and the common thread that holds them together is their temperment. Their hearts are in it and they are proud to be representing the US in international competition. I have seen everyone of these people work well together and be gracious for that opportunity.

soloudinhere
Dec. 10, 2006, 04:43 PM
I find it interesting that you have to post that statement as an alter. I find insinuations uncalled for, period, no matter who or what they are about. Either state what you know to be true or refrain from commenting. Just because something is in print does not make it true or unbiased.

I'm not saying the article is false, just that without specifics being noted it seems very one-sided and I'm not seeing anything more being added except personal bias.

This is the only account I've been able to access since the board changeover thanks to those crazy numerical passwords. Since the system won't let me change it and I don't have the retention to remember a random string of numbers, I've been using my "alter" account.

I have no firsthand knowledge of this situation and was responding to another poster's statement that because some people chipped in that they agree with the article that they must have a personal vendetta.

I too would appreciate hearing details from anyone who has them, which is why I commented that there's nothing wrong with making statements as long as the statements are true (the person who does know was in fear of being slanderous...obviously what the poster I responded to thinks is the case.)

If an article is in print and the person in question does not find it necessary to challenge the article (the USEF must be aware of its existence, especially if it's on the open internet) I'd be inclined to believe that the material contained is not in fact false, and therefore not slanderous in its insinuations.

kkj
Dec. 10, 2006, 05:34 PM
I have no problem with public drunkeness as long as you are sober in the saddle (and behind the wheel).

Anyway, I don't know Leslie Morse and have not ridden with her. However, I am from CA and have heard stuff. Friends who have seen her a lot and cliniced with her said she is "Rough". I am amazed all the negative stuff on here about CP and this is the first negative stuff I hear about her.

Abusing your horse in the warmup, especially when you are representing our country, well I think they should have given her her plane ticket home.

hb
Dec. 10, 2006, 06:08 PM
For my part, what doesn't make any sense at all is the lead-in, namely the inexplicably triumphant reaction to what seemed to be anything but a triumphant ride. What followed in the article offered no insight whatever on that still mysterious action.


Yes, why the excitement over the drop score?

physical.energy
Dec. 10, 2006, 07:32 PM
Yes, why the excitement over the drop score?

Perhaps the test felt worse from the saddle than it was and the 64% was more than she had expected which made her happy? Not wanting there to be some hidden meaning to her happiness here!

ESG
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:04 PM
Wow, somemone speaks as though she has been a participant on a team behind the iron curtain. These comments show a complete disrespect for our team members and their character.

Oh, bullshit. In the case of the speed skater, it's the truth - he showed a definite lack of "team spirit", declined to participate in the relay, and both the other skaters and coaches were p!$$ed, and rightly so. He used the Olympic team's money and resources to get to the competition, then bailed on the team when they could have used him. Iron curtains have nothing to do with this - it was all out in the open, for everyone to see. No need to have been a member of a team.


I have been on the backside over more than 20 years and I can assure you....these comments ARE SO WRONG! :(
We have had many teams, that I have been a part of and none of the above statements are anywhere near true. In fact couldn't be further from the truth. More often than not the team members are unified and supportive of one another.
Frankly, in any team that I have been involved with not one team member showed disrespect to fellow team members, coaches, judges, or any show officials. These statements make me angry to think someone on this BB might think this is the reality of our team. If one has never been involved in the US team and has no first hand knowledge of our team conduct in international competition, how can one make such rediculous statements. It is not normal for the team members to be at odds or disrespectful.

I didn't say it was "normal" - I said it's to be expected when you get a bunch of horse people together, prima donnas especially. And I'm not singling out the US team, either; it's common to ALL teams, in EVERY athletic endeavor. Please don't read into my comments what isn't there.


A huge part of being on the team is sportsmanship..... being able to participate with your team mates at heart as well. Guenter, Steffan, Debbie, Lisa, Carroll, Robert, Hilda to name just a few all have been on the team more than once because they know how to work together for the good of the whole.(forgive me for those other USET members that have been on the team more than once that I left out). They were asked back because they knew how to play and work well with others and with the other athletes.

Funny - I always thought they were "asked back" because they scored the best in the qualifying competitions. You mean to tell me that it's sportsmanship that makes an Olympic team, rather than ability? Bet there will be a lot of people who will change their attitudes, then. :p


These people are cut from a different cloth and the common thread that holds them together is their temperment. Their hearts are in it and they are proud to be representing the US in international competition. I have seen everyone of these people work well together and be gracious for that opportunity.

If that were true, how did Leslie Morse make the team, with the history she apparently has?

Equibrit
Dec. 10, 2006, 09:52 PM
Makes you wonder doesn't it?

MEP
Dec. 10, 2006, 10:00 PM
Here's something I don't understand: When LM was announced for the WEG team, I seem to remember that there was controversy because Catherine Haddad had scored higher than LM at the last show considered as a trial. I seem to remember there was some insinuation that LM was appointed to the team because of favoritism on someone's part - ???? I don't know enough about this situation to sort it all out, and of course, I read all this with skepticism because it was peoples' opinions based on who knows what facts. I don't know any of the players personally, and have the greatest respect for the riders who've made it to the top international level. They didn't get there by sitting on their butts reading about dressage! But, no doubt many of them have a lot of attitude - most people who make the highest levels of any undertaking be it sports, business, academics, whatever, have enough of the prima donna in them to focus on their goals, often to their own detriment, and they can make enemies in addition to allies and friends.

I really hope that LM didn't behave the way it's been reported. If she did, and she harmed any people or any horses, she should be censored for it, either officially or privately by some USET powers that be.

Velvet
Dec. 10, 2006, 10:26 PM
Duuuuuude!


I think he's been forgiven, again, yet today. Looks like he won a major race. :lol: Maybe Leslie would have been forgiven if she'd won, too. ;)

canyonoak
Dec. 10, 2006, 10:29 PM
One of the great things about the internet is that we all have access to so much information, and instantaneously,too.

one of the really bad things about the internet is that an enormous amount of MIS-information can take on a life of its own in a matter of nano-seconds, precisely because the information highway is like the Indianapolis Speedway.

or, for the Europeans, like an autobahn.

a little levity, folks...

I could probably tattle stories about nearly everyone on this and several other dressage teams; stories that reveal various riders in a less than glowing light.

(well, yes, each of us could probably do this for several riders, some more or less famous than others).

stories that would produce page after page of posts.

but you know what?

in the end, it doesn't mean any more or less now than it meant before the internet: no one is a saint all the time.

remember about who gets to cast the stones.

I have not yet read the original article that started all this..but I have to wonder WHY the magazine chose to not only run the story but put it on the internet. (although my lowly dial-up connection will probably never be able to access it anyway).

I mean--what agenda is working here?

CarrieK
Dec. 10, 2006, 10:37 PM
Maybe Leslie would have been forgiven if she'd won, too.
You can count on it. Winners (and the rich)(and the beautiful) are always forgiven.

physical.energy
Dec. 10, 2006, 11:02 PM
Oaky, You and that darned dial up. It's worth the read in any case. Between the two of us, we could write a book and change the names to protect our butts:lol: :lol: :winkgrin:.

Sabine
Dec. 10, 2006, 11:36 PM
P.E. and Oakie:
will snail mail it to you on Monday on hardcopy- it does not copy onto desktop....

naters
Dec. 11, 2006, 12:33 AM
sabine -
try pulling up the page, and then hitting your "print screen" button.

Then, open a new email, click in the body somewhere, and hit CTRL + V.

Should paste a picture of it into the email.

Sabine
Dec. 11, 2006, 12:48 AM
sabine -
try pulling up the page, and then hitting your "print screen" button.

Then, open a new email, click in the body somewhere, and hit CTRL + V.

Should paste a picture of it into the email.

thanks naters- I am on Outlook Web Access right now- working from home- but come Monday I am back on the slave ship...LOL! and I will try and do just that,...PE pm me your e-mail and I'll send it to you...

thanks naters- that's a lot of work saved...:)

Mardi
Dec. 11, 2006, 12:53 AM
Okay, I read it (yes, figured out how to turn the pages and zoom in, etc.)

Where I part company with Ms. Morse is when she decided to train at Kyra's, and not with our coach and other teammates while in Germany. That's divisive by its very nature.

One of the goals of our team is to represent the best of us (and the U.S.). Good sportsmanship is a pre-requisite. If you can't join the team with at least that, then please stay home.

Mr. Braddick (writer/editor) made the right choice in publishing his observations. How often can we read another article about who won what ? This is our team, a team that represents our country, and one that we are repeatedly ask to financially support. You bet we have a right to know what's going on.

Sabine
Dec. 11, 2006, 01:05 AM
Okay, I read it (yes, figured out how to turn the pages and zoom in, etc.)

Where I part company with Ms. Morse is when she decided to train at Kyra's, and not with our coach and other teammates while in Germany. That's divisive by its very nature.

One of the goals of our team is to represent the best of us (and the U.S.). Good sportsmanship is a pre-requisite. If you can't join the team with at least that, then please stay home.

Mr. Braddick (writer/editor) made the right choice in publishing his observations. How often can we read another article about who won what ? This is our team, a team that represents our country, and one that we are repeatedly ask to financially support. You bet we have a right to know what's going on.

:);)

Blugal
Dec. 11, 2006, 03:55 AM
Just some thoughts... I'm Canadian and I don't have a dog in this fight.


Where I part company with Ms. Morse is when she decided to train at Kyra's, and not with our coach and other teammates while in Germany. That's divisive by its very nature.

One of the goals of our team is to represent the best of us (and the U.S.). Good sportsmanship is a pre-requisite. If you can't join the team with at least that, then please stay home.

Question: is there a rule that you must train with the team? Is there a good purpose to the rule? If riders feel that their best performances lie in training with their regular coach, is there a reason to revise that rule? I ask because I have been in this situation (on a much smaller scale!!) before, and did not feel that deviating from my plan (which had gotten me this far!) and working with a new coach would help my performance at the biggest event of our lives... (I recognize that Kyra and Klaus are both huge names in this sport, so not choosing between them.)

Not sure if you are equating good sportsmanship with joining the rest of the team for training... to me that would be team-building, but not necessarily good sportsmanship. In fact, I wonder what exactly people are expecting for their sponsorship dollars - if there were a prioritization, would it go:

1. sportsmanship & results
2. sportsmanship
3. results

or
1. sportsmanship & results
2. results
3. sportsmanship

and what are the relative merits of the above when the national federation, USET, FEI, and IOC are looking at teams?

kkj
Dec. 11, 2006, 08:02 AM
You can count on it. Winners (and the rich)(and the beautiful) are always forgiven.


Don't know that I really agree with this. Leslie Morse is relatively rich. She lives in Beverly Hills, bought Tip Top for herself and can afford to train in Europe. Unlike CP who so many on here love to rip on she does not do a great job at PR and get other people to buy her nice horses. She can do it for herself.

Also, people ripped on Karin Offield pretty hard for buying Lingh, why don't they rip on Leslie Morse? Karin is a polished women who has fronted a lot of money to support dressage. Leslie Morse is someone who allegedly abuses her horse in the warmup (read in then what does she do when no one is watching) and someone who operates her life with force.

I am just wondering why people haven't had a bash on her thread before when we do it to some people who I think are less deserving repetitively.

And I agree with Canyonoak that we could probably dig up and spread unflattering stuff about any rider or any person for that matter. We all are human. No one is perfect. I can forgive the alleged drunkness in public. But if there was public arguing or disrespecting Klaus Balkenhol or being rough and unkind to the horse when she represents the USA, well that is not tolerable to me. Irregardless of wealth such behavior shows a total lack of class.

ToN Farm
Dec. 11, 2006, 10:17 AM
What is being written on this thread is really getting to me. I read words like:
shenanigans, hoodlums, rough, disorderly, bad apple, etc.
Everyone adds their own flair to the article.

I don't know if Ms. Morse is guilty of what you are saying or not. I don't care either. I do agree with Theo about Dressage not being a Team sport, and everyone is really out for themselves. Some just do a better job than others at not revealing that.

Maybe Leslie is a bit of a rebel and not part of the 'good old boys club'. I don't know what the 'code of conduct' is all about and what constitutes 'disrespect'. Personally, I don't blame Leslie for wanting to train with Kyra instead of Klaus. I would have done the same.

As for the abusive riding, if that was happening that why wasn't it stopped? Where was the TD, the coach, the team members, or just any other spectator. If they did nothing, then they are as much to blame as she is. Whatever.....I don't believe it anyway. I know from reading the internet boards that many people think things are abusive that I don't.....like RK.

The 'public drunkeness' makes me laugh. Most people that drink have probably been had a little too much at one time or another. Sheesh, was she swinging on a chandelier or peeing her pants? That's what you make it sound like.

As for the financially supporting the USET, how many of you are doing that?

canyonoak
Dec. 11, 2006, 10:57 AM
Who are you all referring to as CP?

feel fre to PM me if the name canot be revealed here.

thank you.

Atlantis
Dec. 11, 2006, 03:24 PM
What is being written on this thread is really getting to me. I read words like:
shenanigans, hoodlums, rough, disorderly, bad apple, etc.
Everyone adds their own flair to the article.

I don't know if Ms. Morse is guilty of what you are saying or not. I don't care either. I do agree with Theo about Dressage not being a Team sport, and everyone is really out for themselves. Some just do a better job than others at not revealing that.

Maybe Leslie is a bit of a rebel and not part of the 'good old boys club'. I don't know what the 'code of conduct' is all about and what constitutes 'disrespect'. Personally, I don't blame Leslie for wanting to train with Kyra instead of Klaus. I would have done the same.

As for the abusive riding, if that was happening that why wasn't it stopped? Where was the TD, the coach, the team members, or just any other spectator. If they did nothing, then they are as much to blame as she is. Whatever.....I don't believe it anyway. I know from reading the internet boards that many people think things are abusive that I don't.....like RK.

The 'public drunkeness' makes me laugh. Most people that drink have probably been had a little too much at one time or another. Sheesh, was she swinging on a chandelier or peeing her pants? That's what you make it sound like.

As for the financially supporting the USET, how many of you are doing that?

Excellent points.

We live in an instant access world of internet and YouTube and sound bites and sensationalism. Nobody is perfect - but now their imperfections can be blown all out of proportion and take on a life of their own.

This type of senstaionalism is no better than the Enquirer.

I am unable to read the article, because of the awful format. However, from what I can grasp from this thread, the "big deal" seams to be that:
1. She chose to ride with Kyra instead of Klaus.
2. She got drunk in public.
3. She was "abusive" in her warm-up.

So let's see: What's the problem with choosing Kyra over Klaus? Is it because of some sense of patriotism or teamwork? Klaus has been a bit outspoken lately, and has chosen to take a stand publically on some issues, and plenty of people do not agree with what he is doing or how he is doing it. Maybe Leslie felt Kyra's approach and training methods worked better for her and her horse. If I had to choose, I'd choose Kyra as well.

As for being drunk in public. Are we all so perfect and self-righteous now that we've never made any mistakes? I'd also wonder at the definition of "drunk" and "in public". Was she running thru the streets in her panties or something?

"Abusive" in the warm-up. Hmmm. This one needs more defining too. Because there are people out there on crusades to convince the world that Anky is abusive... and PETA thinks all riding is abusive.... Sometimes, "abuse" is in the eye of the beholder. And even if she DID lose her temper and her warm-up WAS a bit rough, she would certainly not be the first rider in the history of the world to be guilty of this. I could start naming others, but that would be as inappropriate as most of the rest of this topic.

Canyonoak, the "CP" they are referring to is Cesar Parra. ;)

For whomever made the comparison between Leslie Morse and Karin Offield, I say no way. You are talking apples and oranges. No way is KO in the same league as LM, no matter how wealthy either one of them may be. I don't even see how a comparison can be made between a wealthy amateur buying a proven international level horse as a schoolmaster, and LM's achievements. And this isn't meant to be offensive to KO, as I'm sure she herself would also never compare herself to LM.

physical.energy
Dec. 11, 2006, 04:31 PM
"For whomever made the comparison between Leslie Morse and Karin Offield, I say no way. You are talking apples and oranges. No way is KO in the same league as LM, no matter how wealthy either one of them may be. I don't even see how a comparison can be made between a wealthy amateur buying a proven international level horse as a schoolmaster, and LM's achievements. And this isn't meant to be offensive to KO, as I'm sure she herself would also never compare herself to LM."

Agreed. Just because someone has the funds to purchase a horse doesn't mean they are going to be able to ride it let alone ride in international competition. Leslie has the ability to do just that while an adult amature doesn't have that same ability. I couldn't imagine an amature riding Tip Top in the international arena. :lol: :lol: :lol: There is no question in my mind that Leslie has the ability to ride in the international arena. I don't care if she was drunk in public. If she was dancing on the bar I wish I had been there to see it. :winkgrin: I don't see anything wrong with training with KyraK who has been her trainer for years and is the past owner of the horse. This should have given her the advantage that she needed. However, my only point is this. Being a team member is a priveledge not a right and IF the article is accurate, then she should be called out on the behavior. Personally, it sounds to me like there were circumstances that were not handled appropriately and the pressure was more than she was able to handle. Strength of character is a huge part of being a team member. Being able to handle the pressure of big competition and all that comes along with it are required for someone to be a good team member. If Leslie had the low score but supported her teammates and coach appropriately than I don't think the article would have been published. I do wonder what will be in the future? Will she be considered to represent the US again or not? I wonder if the judges would place her on top in qualifying competitions if the US didn't want to use her again on the team? She is gonig to have to ride her pants off now so they can't block her and swollow a little diplomacy pill too.

Dressage learner
Dec. 11, 2006, 05:45 PM
I have been in Europe many times, Twice representing the USA. As a representative of our country, I think that it is important to know that person is setting an example that the whole world will see on and off the horse. Loud and obnoxious behavior is not a good example. I have wittnessed Leslie acting this way more than once.

YoungFilly
Dec. 11, 2006, 05:46 PM
What I want to know is if any of the real publications like USEF or USDF or DT will cover anything about this? Or is this rinky dink publication going to be the only one? This article is in a magazine that makes sidelines look incredible.

kkj
Dec. 11, 2006, 06:12 PM
Physical Energy I was not equating Leslie's riding skills to Karin Offields. I do too think Leslie can ride. I thought she and Kingston looked very good at the World Cup in Vegas. I also think she is a strong woman and I respect that. I was just pointing out that on this bb a lot of people who I don't really think deserve to be ripped on are like Karin Offield and Cesar Parra. I don't think either of them really deserve it.

I have heard in my neck of the woods more negative stuff about Leslie. Do I think it is cool to rip on her here, no not really. However, if she was rude and argumentative to Klaus and not supportive of her team and clearly abusive to Tip Top, then yeah, call her out on it. The public drunkeness and loud and obnoxious behavior, I have no problem with that. At least she has personality.

I am just suprised that I have not read a negative thread about her before when there have been so many about Anky and Parra etc etc.

My other point was just that we don't always forgive the rich. They may get away with a little more (better lawyers I guess) but we don't always forgive them.

MEP
Dec. 11, 2006, 06:50 PM
I'm going to ask again if anyone has any guess how LM made the WEG team over Catherine Haddad after the final show/trial score? I seem to remember a thread at the time (but I can't find it - it might have been on the WEG board that no longer exists), where posters were implying favoritism putting LM on the team over CH, even though CH had the higher score. If LM was such an undermining presence on the team, why would the selectors choose her over CH?

I'm not insinuating anything here, I don't have ANY information at all, I'm really wondering why they would choose LM - IIRC, it was said that LM had a record of folding under pressure at big events. Having only seen LM ride in person at the LVWC, I don't have any personal eyewitness knowledge.

A further note, that while a lot of the posters who are claiming to be eye witnesses of LM's bad behavior are 'newbies' with one or two posts to their credit, there are several long-time board members who are suggesting the allegations have some basis in LM's past patterns - so I have to acknowledge their credibility and applaud them for actually stating that they have some knowledge of this under their own BB identity.

By the by, someone asked how many of us were supporters of the USET. I am, on the very smallest scale mind you, but I am! :lol:

YoungFilly
Dec. 11, 2006, 07:31 PM
MEP's question:


A further note, that while a lot of the posters who are claiming to be eye witnesses of LM's bad behavior are 'newbies' with one or two posts to their credit, there are several long-time board members who are suggesting the allegations have some basis in LM's past patterns - so I have to acknowledge their credibility and applaud them for actually stating that they have some knowledge of this under their own BB identity.


And my statement from a few pages back:



Regular posters, take a look at how many posts the OP and some of the supporters have. This is a total bone to pick with Leslie herself. How many other bb's are you all targeting, or is the COTH just the biggest one?


I am glad that I am not the only one to notice this. I want to see a real publication say something about this before I am going to believe anything. I also acknowldge our long time posters. Everything else is going to be hearsay. We need some facts before I am going to have a real opinion.

CarrieK
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:12 AM
Don't know that I really agree with this. Leslie Morse is relatively rich. She lives in Beverly Hills, bought Tip Top for herself and can afford to train in Europe. Unlike CP who so many on here love to rip on she does not do a great job at PR and get other people to buy her nice horses. She can do it for herself.

My comment was in response to another poster who said (words to the effect) that if Leslie had won she would have been forgiven (much like Bodie is forgiven his duuuuuude behavior when he wins, not forgiven when he loses).

My rich and beautiful addition wasn't aimed at Leslie, but at the idea that the poor behavior of winners and rich folks and beautiful folks are, if not exactly forgiven, tolerated merely because they win or are rich or beautiful. We've got loads of athletes of all sports whose boorish or worse behavior on and off the field is tolerated because they deliver, we've got a few celebrities whose careers don't suffer inspite of their anti-sem--erm, boorish behavior. It's a cultural failing of ours.

Red
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:19 AM
I have been in Europe many times, Twice representing the USA. As a representative of our country, I think that it is important to know that person is setting an example that the whole world will see on and off the horse. Loud and obnoxious behavior is not a good example. I have wittnessed Leslie acting this way more than once.

More than once is an understatement. I have known LM personally for many years. I think that she is an amazing rider, but her social skills are less than desirable. That being said, IMO I see nothing wrong with someone being an A$$hole, as long as they can handle themselves and keep it on the DL. ie. not effecting the team, horses or individuals.

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 03:03 AM
If one were to find the appropriate Equestrian Magazine, from sometime in the 90's, and were to find the right month with the Notice of Penalty section, you can read one of the most interestingly worded Notices of all time, about how Leslie Morse and Patricia Kinnamen, 'acted in an unsportsmanlike manner, when, as members of the Hospitality Comittee at Dressage at Flintridge, they physically assaulted another rider on the grounds during the horse show.'

Unfortunately, mine are in storage so I can't quote it with their precise language. A real shame that USEF does not have these online.

ToN Farm
Dec. 12, 2006, 08:42 AM
they physically assaulted another rider on the grounds during the horse show.
Were criminal assult charges brought against them? I'm guessing they were not. Describe the physical assult that happened.

I am of the opinion that riders get selected for the team because they can ride, and not because of their social skills or because they are setting an example of what a wonderful human being they are.

Look at some of the basketball and football stars, some of which have been charged with rape/assult/wife beating, drugs, etc.

retrofit
Dec. 12, 2006, 09:48 AM
I am of the opinion that riders get selected for the team because they can ride, and not because of their social skills or because they are setting an example of what a wonderful human being they are.

Look at some of the basketball and football stars, some of which have been charged with rape/assult/wife beating, drugs, etc.

RIGHT - but they are producing. I wonder if any of this would have been published if she hadn't been the drop score.

Equibrit
Dec. 12, 2006, 09:56 AM
QUOTE; "What I want to know is if any of the real publications like USEF or USDF or DT will cover anything about this? Or is this rinky dink publication going to be the only one? This article is in a magazine that makes sidelines look incredible." ENDQUOTE





I would not consider these the credentials of a trash talker.

Ken Braddick was a foreign correspondent for United Press International for more than 10 years. He was international editor of the global news agency based in New York before leaving in 1982 to found the world’s first digital photo satellite network that served The New York Times, News Corp., Knight-Ridder, Tribune Company and Newhouse News Service among others. He founded Horse Sport USA, a full color glossy magazine to serve the high performance hunter/jumper and dressage communities. Ken will cover the international scene from every angle for PhelpsSports.com

ESG
Dec. 12, 2006, 10:10 AM
You're kidding, right? The magazine, despite Mr. Braddick's professional credentials, is a glorified ad rag for the Wellington area. I'm betting that he had to come up with something to fill what little space his advertisers left empty. And what could be more titillating and enticing than word of a dust-up on the usually-oh-so-well-behaved dressage team? :winkgrin:

Again, if this had been about showjumpers, it wouldn't even have been noteworthy.

And retrofit, I'm with you - everybody loves a winner, and winners can be forgiven damn near anything. Just ask OJ (not that I think that this little tempest in a teapot is anything comparable to what he did).

vineyridge
Dec. 12, 2006, 10:22 AM
Is it true that LM was supposed to take Kingston (or got her invite because of him)to Europe for the final WEG trials and showed up with Tip Top instead? If that's true, then it's utterly bizarre that she was selected to ride over Catherine Haddad.

Or am I thinking about the World Cup, when we had only one truly qualified to ride?

Isn't this a part of that article?

canyonoak
Dec. 12, 2006, 10:30 AM
<<Is it true that LM was supposed to take Kingston (or got her invite because of him)to Europe for the final WEG trials and showed up with Tip Top instead? If that's true, then it's utterly bizarre that she was selected to ride over Catherine Haddad.

Or am I thinking about the World Cup, when we had only one truly qualified to ride? >>


OK, wait one second.

Leslie qualified for 2005 WC with Kingston and was selected to go with Kingston.

leslie qualified for 2006 WC with Tip Top and was selected to go with Tip Top.

For WEG, she went to selection trials in Gladstone with Tip Top and was selected for WEG short list to participate with Tip Top. In Europe, when the final four were selected,leslie and Tip Top were given the 4th spot and Catherine Haddad/Maximus were given 1st alternate.

speculation as to the decision made has filled other threads on this forum.

kkj
Dec. 12, 2006, 12:22 PM
I am of the opinion that riders get selected for the team because they can ride, and not because of their social skills or because they are setting an example of what a wonderful human being they are.

Look at some of the basketball and football stars, some of which have been charged with rape/assult/wife beating, drugs, etc.

This is very interesting and points out that double standards still exist big time. Part of it is dressage is still more stuffy and uptight than say football but a much bigger part is we are talking about a woman here. I don't want to slander anyone but Leslie Morse is a big strong manly type woman. I have heard referred to as a "bulldike". Now, I have no problem with lesbians or strong women, but a lot of us really do. A woman will still readily be called a bit** for things a man would only be called strong or a good leader or whatever other positive description. In the dressage community be a gay man and most everyone will love you. Come out as a strong lesbian and you will turn people off. There really is a double standard.

I have heard the woman is a bit acerbic, abrasive, forceful whatever. I have heard stories such as the assault one. Still, I think she can ride. I don't care if she is loud and obnoxious or drunk in public. ( I saw Edward Gal, Anky and Sjieff at the Hard Rock in Vegas drinking and smoking and I just thought, cool serious dressage riders letting their hair down.) I just don't like people who represent the US in international competition being rude in public to their coach or abusive to their horse.

Also I believe a ton of truthful stuff will never be touched by Dressage Today or Practical Horsemen or whatever. They do not dish the dirt no matter how true it is. They basically put out there positive feel good kind of stories. When something very aggrieves happens it might get a couple sentence blurb. Such was the case when McClain Ward got suspended for awhile for putting tacks in the jumping boots and giving a horse cocaine. The magazine covered it with like two little sentences. Now I would love for a magazine to really cover that stuff. Like do a total investigative article on drugging in the hunter ring or trainers ripping off clients with blind double commissions or whatever.

I don't just believe anything in print, but if it doesn't make it into DT, I don't assume it didn't happen either.

retrofit
Dec. 12, 2006, 12:50 PM
Good points kkj. If LM had a more 'mainstream' marketable image, and if her choice of trainers and warm-ups had worked better ... would anyone care?

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:00 PM
Were criminal assult charges brought against them? I'm guessing they were not. Describe the physical assult that happened.

I am not a witness so I preface remarks with that. I did come to know the victim, a small but tough woman, a few years after the incident. I do know it was a beating that involved multiple blows and definite physical injuries but I don't know for certain what happened with local law enforcement. But I do remember finding out with surprise, "That was YOU?" because that Notice of Penalty had stuck in my head for ages with its unusually ironic wording.

The victim told me that the reason for the argument was that she had choreographed a freestyle for another rider that used the same music that Leslie was using, and Leslie (whom she had worked for in the past) was apoplectic.

Regardless of the reason it was definitely a very serious incident reflecting someone who had trouble managing her anger in the 90's. I have no idea if she has reformed since.

Coreene
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:00 PM
Karma's a bitch, ain't it? :lol:

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:08 PM
Good points kkj. If LM had a more 'mainstream' marketable image, and if her choice of trainers and warm-ups had worked better ... would anyone care?

Well, personally, it's not up to me but..

I don't care how effectively they ride if they are not ethical in their treatment and care of their horses. I am pleased that George Lindemann and Paul Valliere and Barney Ward are no longer able to attend recognized shows or compete, even if that costs the US results abroad. McClain Ward makes me uncomfortable, even though he wins, and I only console myself with the optimisitc thought that he probably takes lovely care of gold-medal winning Sapphire at this point, and the day that Leslie Morse was selected, I also cringed, and again, since it's out of my hands, I've just tried to be optimistic that Kyra would have had a strong positive effect on her.

I remember attending one of the annual CDS clinics several years back, maybe 2000, where Klaus Balkenhol came and she was one of the riders. He was very critical, even in that public venue, of her being too rough on her horse. She was the only rider who got comments like that all day. Perhaps one or both of them can't let go of that day. Or perhaps the reason for the friction between them never went away.

So anyway, for what it's worth, I care.

Coreene
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:10 PM
I swear a lot. But I know when not to let the F word fly. Right there is a big clue.

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:14 PM
This is very interesting and points out that double standards still exist big time. Part of it is dressage is still more stuffy and uptight than say football but a much bigger part is we are talking about a woman here. I don't want to slander anyone but Leslie Morse is a big strong manly type woman. I have heard referred to as a "bulldike". Now, I have no problem with lesbians or strong women, but a lot of us really do. A woman will still readily be called a bit** for things a man would only be called strong or a good leader or whatever other positive description. In the dressage community be a gay man and most everyone will love you. Come out as a strong lesbian and you will turn people off. There really is a double standard.

There are plenty of acknowledged lesbians in the California dressage community and I can't say that I've ever heard any comments about behavior or ethics that had anything to do with sexuality. In other regions, your mileage may vary.

I think assault transcends sexuality, personally, and certainly being gay (or straight) is no excuse for rudeness - let alone beating someone.

Velvet
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:20 PM
I don't care how effectively they ride if they are not ethical in their treatment and care of their horses. I am pleased that George Lindemann and Paul Valliere and Barney Ward are no longer able to attend recognized shows or compete,


Um, yeah, then why is everyone still complaining about them being in the stands and schooling people, and still making a fortune in the horse world? The USEF has no teeth. They can't and don't bother to enforce rules that should remove abusers permanently from the horse world. Part of the problem is all the people who want to win and will still work with them to win. They and the show organizers who just can't keep up on all the people standing on the rail well enough to patrol the suspensions. So this is a very poor example.

People with bad tempers and abusive training styles have been and will always be rewarded by riders on some level. Too bad we can't just train everyone in the horse world to help support the suspensions and also have better ethics and just avoid these people like the plague. But that's another reality, not the one we currently live in.

physical.energy
Dec. 12, 2006, 01:25 PM
If one were to find the appropriate Equestrian Magazine, from sometime in the 90's, and were to find the right month with the Notice of Penalty section, you can read one of the most interestingly worded Notices of all time, about how Leslie Morse and Patricia Kinnamen, 'acted in an unsportsmanlike manner, when, as members of the Hospitality Comittee at Dressage at Flintridge, they physically assaulted another rider on the grounds during the horse show.'

Unfortunately, mine are in storage so I can't quote it with their precise language. A real shame that USEF does not have these online.

OMG I Completely had forgotten about that. Yep that would be a good example.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Killin myself laughing!

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 02:04 PM
Um, yeah, then why is everyone still complaining about them being in the stands and schooling people, and still making a fortune in the horse world? The USEF has no teeth. They can't and don't bother to enforce rules that should remove abusers permanently from the horse world. Part of the problem is all the people who want to win and will still work with them to win. They and the show organizers who just can't keep up on all the people standing on the rail well enough to patrol the suspensions. So this is a very poor example.

Well, two of them are no longer competing nor eligible to ride for the USET. They also spent time in jail. Barney cannot openly go to competitions to watch his son or celebrate his victories. Certainly that has changed their lives.

As for Valliere, I'm angry about him too, and I will be furious if he is reinstated given the way he's flouted the rules. He satisfied the US Justice Department and USEF has pretty much done as much as is in their power to do to ban him. There is no question that he's paid some price, even if perhaps it's not as high as we'd like. That the USEF does not have the power to smite him if he is coaching someone from the property next door is disappointing but not surprising or even really anyone's fault except for the people who choose to ride with him.

But none of that means that I can't and don't cringe when people with questionable ethics represent me, or that I won't or shouldn't speak out on the topic. Frankly, I won't root for them and I hope that the other teams/pairs win when those riders are selected.

iownapaint
Dec. 12, 2006, 02:15 PM
But these people ARE on show grounds all the time. Yes, it is illegal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That's the point. Yes, rules were made, but they are followed or enforced (and that's mostly because it's really hard to enforce them, but some people DO look the other way).

poltroon
Dec. 12, 2006, 02:28 PM
But these people ARE on show grounds all the time. Yes, it is illegal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That's the point. Yes, rules were made, but they are followed or enforced (and that's mostly because it's really hard to enforce them, but some people DO look the other way).

So.... we should just give up and pick them for the Team then? I'm not following the argument here.

The question was, does anyone care as long as they're winning, and the answer is yes, some people do. (Maybe only me. :D) I think we're going on a tangent here.

kkj
Dec. 12, 2006, 03:02 PM
Yes Poltroon a total tangent, but I am with you. I don't forgive "bad" doers just cause they win. Whenever, I watch McClain I hope he looses. Ultimately I do believe in Karma.

I don't really know what this has to do with Leslie Morse. If she really beat someone up because they had the same freestyle music, well indeed she has a little bad Karma coming.

soloudinhere
Dec. 12, 2006, 07:09 PM
Yes Poltroon a total tangent, but I am with you. I don't forgive "bad" doers just cause they win. Whenever, I watch McClain I hope he looses. Ultimately I do believe in Karma.

I don't really know what this has to do with Leslie Morse. If she really beat someone up because they had the same freestyle music, well indeed she has a little bad Karma coming.

Punishing the son for the sins of the father, or because of the incident with the shards of plastic in his horse's boots?

I have no recollection of a cocaine incident tied to or separate from the booting incident.

Much could be said about many many trainers and riders. George Morris caused a horse to be impaled at WEF a few years back when it was jumping an aluminum pole, sort of the new version of poling. It was off the show grounds. Was what happened acceptable? no. But if you're going to not support McLain because of either incident, logic would dictate that you'd also hope the whole team loses because of the accident under Mr. Morris' tutelage.

YoungFilly
Dec. 12, 2006, 09:12 PM
Personally, I am very shocked to hear all this about LM. I have been reading (for years mind you) so much about competitive dressage, or boards, in pubications, etc. I thought I knew a lot about our team members.

One of the people here that I consider a reliable source, she is on the other coast from me, and I do believe her that she has seen this action in progress.

I am surprised, really. Not surprised that this happens, but surprised that this type of behavior hasn't been rectified. We can't go down the road of the TWH people. If stuff like this actually happens we need to say something.

None of this happens with my own BNT's, local trainers, or at my shows. Or at least I have not seen it. What should I do next time, if I do see it? Contact who? Say something to the ring monitor? What if they are also to afraid/inferior to the person making the offense? Do we just say, "Well, if they are doing it, it must be ok?"

Velvet
Dec. 12, 2006, 10:56 PM
Okay, I KNOW this isn't how it happened, and I'm sure it sucked to be the recipient of the blows that it sounds like LM landed on the other person, but I can't shake the image of a woman in a top hat, tails, perfectly polished boots, immaculate white breeches, and carefully coifed hair going insane and pounding on another person. :lol: It probably didn't look anything like that, either, but I just can't shake that image. :yes:

Dressage learner
Dec. 12, 2006, 11:11 PM
Let us all not forget her SO is a high powered attorney. This may be why Leslie is able to act the way she does. By the way the team was selected not just from the shows in Europe but also Gladstone. Although I agree Catherine should have been on the team, she looked good in Emloe and Verden.

Velvet
Dec. 12, 2006, 11:13 PM
I forgot to add the soundtrack that I think would go along with the tirade/beating. "Mine! Mine! Mine!" in a loud DQ shriek. :lol: :lol:

Sabine
Dec. 12, 2006, 11:42 PM
Let us all not forget her SO is a high powered attorney. This may be why Leslie is able to act the way she does. By the way the team was selected not just from the shows in Europe but also Gladstone. Although I agree Catherine should have been on the team, she looked good in Emloe and Verden.


Thanks for saying that. I also thought that Catherine deserved the berth.
Regarding conduct- I think our society has cleaned up a lot of things over time - and as social groups become more organized and mature- they naturally revolt against extreme behavior. This is a good example that will most likely not occur again on a future team- the spots are just too precious and hard fought for- and the appearance of the team in the host country should really be positive and represent our american sportsmanship and reflect on our love for horses and how well we treat them and that there is never a time when our bad temper will publicly get the best of us.

sherie
Dec. 12, 2006, 11:47 PM
I have known Lesli Morse since our pony club days in socal over thirty years now. She has always been "out of the box" to say the least. She was the first to wear a tux to the high school prom. But THAT'S another story all together. I've noticed that alot of riders from this area that have gone to make the team, long and short list, seem to have certain cowboy roughness to them. I used to think that was the way to go but not anymore. At my large public stable certain trainers come in a couple times a week, have their "assistant , spouse, etc." beat the crap out of a horse while the owner and fellow dqs' ooh and ahh in rapture. Nowadays, this scene makes me sick, like watching a public stoning or something. I know now with patience, compassion and skill the same ends can be achieved. besides, not every broken down ex-race horse or coldblooded behemoth is going to ever go Grand Prix but can still be happily useful. As for Leslie's partying? There could be worse behavior.You all should HEAR the stories of sex and drugs and lechery......ah, such memories. Sorry, haven't posted in a while and had to get this off my chest.

Sabine
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:28 AM
. At my large public stable certain trainers come in a couple times a week, have their "assistant , spouse, etc." beat the crap out of a horse while the owner and fellow dqs' ooh and ahh in rapture. Nowadays, this scene makes me sick, like watching a public stoning or something. I know now with patience, compassion and skill the same ends can be achieved. besides, not every broken down ex-race horse or coldblooded behemoth is going to ever go Grand Prix but can still be happily useful..

This sounds dreadfully familiar and yes- ridding yourself of this being an acceptable method is the first step in the right direction. But your description was right on and I confess to have seen the same and shook my head in disbelief and felt this huge inner rift between how I liked the trainer and how I hated the associates methods...
Since I have come to terms that I must disassociate with the trainer as this means that the trainer promotes this method...sadly!

physical.energy
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:17 AM
:cool:

physical.energy
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:18 AM
:cool: )~`

Moll
Dec. 13, 2006, 07:49 AM
I've just tried to be optimistic that Kyra would have had a strong positive effect on her.

Kyra is a very strong rider herself and her pupils aren't noted for being particularly light-handed with horses.

kkj
Dec. 13, 2006, 07:59 AM
Punishing the son for the sins of the father, or because of the incident with the shards of plastic in his horse's boots?

I have no recollection of a cocaine incident tied to or separate from the booting incident.

Much could be said about many many trainers and riders. George Morris caused a horse to be impaled at WEF a few years back when it was jumping an aluminum pole, sort of the new version of poling. It was off the show grounds. Was what happened acceptable? no. But if you're going to not support McLain because of either incident, logic would dictate that you'd also hope the whole team loses because of the accident under Mr. Morris' tutelage.

OK so this will be my last post on the tangent, but anyway. I am not punishing Mclain for his dad's bad acts. However the fact that he is still quoted in articles saying Barney is his trainer and he learned everything from him. Yeah that is troublesome. Sometimes you gotta distance yourself from bad seeds even if they are blood. Also I know a lot of the players in the big time do the tack in the boots, caning, polling (whatever you want to call that abuse) etc etc. Doesn't make it acceptable to me. I think a lot of them are dirt and would love to see a horse bite them on the a**. I know I read when Mcclain was suspended for putting tacks in a horse's boots that he was also "convicted" of having a horse under his training and control test positive for cocaine. Whenever I read an interview with him or see him on tv so smug and annoying, it angers me. I am angered that no one really called him more on it and that he is now a golden boy of show jumping again and all is forgiven. He will always be a little dirt ball to me.

As for George Morris impaling a horse with an aluminum pole I did not know that. If it is true and he was caught doing that, I think he should be forced into retirement. He should not be worshipped as the father of show jumping, doing those little articles in Practical Horseman or coaching our Olympians. Integrity matters an awful lot to me and I don't want the coach of our team or our Olympians caught cheating and mistreating horses and then just forgiven and forgotten.

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 08:24 AM
As for George Morris impaling a horse with an aluminum pole I did not know that. If it is true and he was caught doing that, I think he should be forced into retirement

it amazes me what things people will spew forth with abandon. It was an accident, it happened at a clinic. It was an ACCIDENT. The pole upended and the horse landed on it. There was some criticism from some people that the clinic continued after the horse died and that they kept using the poles but no one ever suggested GM did anything intentionally.

Yikes , must remember that ignore thingy does not work if you aren't logged in

ToN Farm
Dec. 13, 2006, 09:42 AM
Ditto Eggy. See how things can get distorted via the net.

Rebe
Dec. 13, 2006, 10:11 AM
And I ditto Eggy and ToN.

A simple "shorthand" statement on this board can grow legs and run like crazy. You need to know and clearly state the actual situation unless you want major misinterpretation to happen.

Which comes back around to the original topic of Leslie Morse's behavior. I have to admit, I've been snooping on this thread, hoping to learn more of the "real dirt" about what REALLY happened.

Some of that is good old voyeurism, of the kind that sells gossip rags and reality shows. Some of it is that I'd like to know the true facts before I can reach my own conclusion about the situation. And too bad for me, I'll probably never be able to know the true facts because I didn't see any of this myself, and I don't expect to get facts without embedded opinions on the BB. That's just human nature.

Deep sigh. I'm going to have to go watch some "Survivor" or "The Bachelor" to feed my voyeur fix... :lol:

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 10:22 AM
A lie can travel around the world six times while the truth is still trying to put its pants on

(or something like that-Mark Twain or French proverb)

eqipoize
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:05 AM
Because it was a situation that I really paid attention to - here are the FACTS regarding the George Morris clinic in Florida.

The jump was an Narrow oxer - made of metal pipes instead of wood rails. the Foolish aspect was that they were 6 foot poles, not 12 feet, And the ends were not capped. A horse hit the rails hard enough to throw them out in front of him, and since the pole was 6 feet long, it was short enough to work like a pike and ran through the horses chest and into the heart. The horse died very quickly.

The clinic continued with the dead horse In the Arena. The jump was still used. there was never any acknowledgement that the jump was a poor choice. The Owner of the dead horse borrowed a new mount and rode the next day.

I personally didn't like GM before this incident, and have been repulsed by him ever since. I was totally AMAZED that there was almost zero reporting of the episode - Except for eye witnesses who wrote about it on various internet bb's.

Anyway, those are the facts.

Moll
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:13 AM
Eqipoize: yuk! I mean, I know accidents happen, but to continue using the jump does seem like a poor choice. Never mind not having the horse removed.

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:20 AM
I expect we all read the same reports, blurred by different people's takes on the situation. I recall someone who was there denied that the clinic carried on with a dead horse in the ring. I expect that I know as much about the known unadulterated facts as you do except I forgot that the pole was not broken. I was not there and neither were you. I am not condoning anything about the situation. It was discussed fully on other threads.

My point was only that this


As for George Morris impaling a horse with an aluminum pole I did not know that. If it is true and he was caught doing that, I think he should be forced into retirement .

was misleading . and it was. It suggests he deliberately impaled the horse.

Now I have to remember to log in before coming here.

kkj
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:23 AM
If those are the facts Equipoze, well that makes it even worse than I thought. Disgusting even. If you have been around horses for as long as he has why would you use short metal poles with no caps? Of course he didn't mean to impale a horse. However to a knowledgable horse person it would be foreseeable that a horse or rider could get badly hurt with such poles.

Even if not, hurting a horse to make it jump higher is abuse to me. The thought of a clinic going on with a dead horse in the ring is barbaric. See in my perfect world such a thing would make front page news in the horse world. It would be published. There would be more reprecusions for sure. People who did such things would be forgiven so easily. The only way to stop people from doing the horrible things they do to horses is not to tolerate it at all.

Rebe
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:32 AM
Oh, I just so know I should leave this be, but....

Eqipoize, you are clearly strongly biased. From what I can see, you weren't there when the incident occurred, but you're reporting facts that someone else is disputing. And your report of what happened is laden with emotion and is presented to support your feelings.

And kkj, you've bought into eqipoize's interpretation. It's easy to do, but that doesn't mean it's OK.

C'mon folks. You need to reserve judgement until and unless you really know the factual truth.

And we've hijacked this thread into something else. I suggest that the GM-bashing start it's own thread if you want to trainwreck that topic, instead of Leslie.

shadowdancer
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:12 PM
I agree, Rebe, let's stay on the subject: Code of Conduct. Some of the threads here have been interesting and have really got me thinking...

First, please leave Kyra Kyrklund out of this discussion. She is professional, skilled and successful beyond reproach. I know her, I know many of her students who are competing currently at the top international level. Most of them ride with great finesse and certainly none of them display the disrespect for their horses that Leslie did for Tip Top last summer.

Can we blame the USEF for not taking stronger action? I think that is what this discussion boils down to. Had the USEF taken official action during the many opportunities that presented themselves last August, nobody would be reading an unofficial account put forth by Ken Braddick.

Is anybody going to back me up on this? I was at Aachen. I did not SEE this incident but the entire horsey world was talking about it: Leslie Morse decided to school Tip Top the day AFTER her drop score ride in the open warm up arena at Aachen. (I heard this from more than one eyewitness.) She became so abusive and rough with the poor horse that the official Steward went to the US Coach and asked him to get her off the horse before he issued an official "yellow card"--warning for roughness.

USEF officials asked her to stop. She did not agree graciously but left the arena before the Steward filed a complaint. He then went to Balkenhol and told him in order to avoid future embarassment for the country, that she should at least be forced to remove the flags from her saddle pad before she got on the horse again.

Again, I was not an eyewitness to this, but two different people involved at a high level of the sport who were at the arena told me about it. Is anybody going to back me up on this?

So here is my question, if Morse was repeatedly so difficult to deal with at Verden and Aachen, openly in public (god knows what she did in private), then why not let her take the official warning? Can't someone teach this person an official lesson? Why does the USEF leave Ken Braddick and his little magazine to take the brunt of revealing this problem? This is more embarassing than official action.

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:13 PM
The GM trainwreck has already been done. Those who wish to wallow in it again can dredge it up from the archives but please don't start it over. The most outspoken person here now under another name seemed to harbour a personal dislike for GM based her outraged views of his teaching style and she clearly had no more knowledge of the facts about the situation than anyone else. Just because someone who was not there states she has the FACTS, does not mean that is true.

oops I just saw the last post. RIGHT- back to the current Gossip mongering everyone!.

eqipoize
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:16 PM
No I was not there - BUT these facts AS I stated them came from a variety of sources, INCLUDING the single interview with GM at the time. The horse was removed from the ring before the second day of the clinic, but they Did keep jumping in the ring with the horse covered with a tarp. Just keeping on with Business as Usual - They did not use the pole jump the rest of that day, but the rider of the horse actually jumped it the next day on the borrowed horse. This says a LOT about these people's relationship with their horses, IN MY OPINION. I did NOT include my personal opinion in my prior post, except to say that I didn't like GM before, and I like him even less now. If you consider my post 'laden with emotion' - I don't know How in the heck you manage to read some of the other rants that occur all over this bb. I mean, Come On - reread what I wrote - You show me One Single Word that is emotion laden - except where I say I am repulsed by the man - and that is MY Opinion, and I can have as much emotion in my opinions as I want. But the facts, as I stated them, will hold up to any research any one wants to conduct into the matter. They ARE the facts. And simply stated. You don't like them? Well, THAT is another issue, but they are the facts of the matter. I challenge ANYONE to prove otherwise.

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:30 PM
Is it true that LM is GM's secret love child? The last names are eerily similar . Facts only, please.

SGray
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:32 PM
perhaps 'emotion laden' due to the facts being so horrific?

and though not particularly germane to the topic at hand - it is my opinion that anytime this bb educates another person to the 'bad acts' that have been perpetrated within our industry it is a GOOD thing

kkj
Dec. 13, 2006, 12:57 PM
Eggy you may have me on your ignore list but I will never ignore your posts. Some of them including LM being GM love child are hilarious.

OK so if what Shadowdancer is saying is true and (I think it probably is) but have no proof, first hand knowledge or whatever, then I think the USEF should have taken action when LM abused Tip Top in Aachen. More should have been done. To me it is very embarrassing and sullies the sport to have someone sporting our flag abusing their horse in the warmup ring or wherever else many many people can see them. (Of course my opinions are slanted I freely admit it oh and yeah I get really passionate about this stuff) Maybe many of you would not think what she was doing was abusive if you saw it first hand. (after all so many of us are so sensitive and overreactive and freak out at the sight of a whip and spurs or just a bit even. There are so many hypersensitive Rolkur hating Peta people out there who think most anything is abuse) However, if so many people thought it was abusive and the Steward and Aachen had to go to the US coach about it, well then it is pretty reasonable to assume it was abusive.

I do admit I have never seen LM abuse a horse or punch a DQ or steal a candybar or anything, but I am from CA and know people who have taken clinics with her and I have heard she is quite "Rough". Two of the people who have said this to me are pretty hard core successful riders who believe in working a horse pretty hard. We are not talking about bitless bareback carrot stick horse huggers finding her methods too rough.

I believe we want to put together a winning team but not at the expense of supporting someone who abuses the horse while carrying our flag. Even if she had won the World Cup, if I had seen a video of her abusing Tip Top in the warmup, I would want her off the team. Winning does not justify abuse to me.

physical.energy
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:01 PM
Kyra is a very strong rider herself and her pupils aren't noted for being particularly light-handed with horses.

OK this is where I won't stay quiet. I had the extreme pleasure and good fortune to spend over a year at Kyras' with a certain horse that shall remain nameless. I watched Kyra ride on a daily basis for hours. NOT ONCE, NOT ONCE EVER did I see Kyra be rough or strong handed with any animal. You Know nothing of what you say. Her students are all quite professional and treat their horses with kindness and respect. She herself has great compassion and is so skilled in communicating with horses that she needs no strength in her conversation with a horse. She is magnificent to watch school horses. They take to her and love her.

nhwr
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:11 PM
I have been involved in the dressage scene in southern California for quite awhile. Leslie Morse has been a prominent figure here for a long time. Her personality and training "issues" were well known and apparently acceptable to those involved in the selection of the team. Not having been present for the incident in question I can't really comment on the article. But the dynamics that set up this situation, ie an outspoken woman with a somewhat tough personality and a coach who might not appreciate that, were there for all to see ahead of time. Leslie has been training with KK since a couple of years before the last selection trials and it really improved her horsemanship, IMO. I don't see a problem with her continuing to train with KK.

But given the personalities involved, it would not surprise me to find that the situation got out of hand ;)

Kathy Johnson
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:22 PM
It seems to me that the situation was exacerbated by Morse having two coaches. Her official American coach is sort of a "lame duck" coach to her, since she does not work with him. So, sending the complaints to Klaus probably did little good. But ring stewards would not officially be able to take complaints to Kyra whom Morse might have listened to as her coach of choice. I think when a problem of any sort arises with an individual, it is very difficult to resolve due to the poor hierarchical structuring. It's a good enough reason for me to insist that all the team use the same coach. If you don't want to use the team coach, don't be on the team.

That magazine was very tough to read. If I used the magnifier, I could not turn the page. Nor could I zoom out or go back so I could turn the page. I had to go back to the beginning of the mag and start over for every page I wanted to read. How the heck was that supposed to work?

There was one paragraph I found intriguing and would like to quote, but I won't do it without instruction on page turning.

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:37 PM
It seems to me that the situation was exacerbated by Morse having two coaches. Her official American coach is sort of a "lame duck" coach to her, since she does not work with him. So, sending the complaints to Klaus probably did little good. But ring stewards would not officially be able to take complaints to Kyra whom Morse might have listened to as her coach of choice. I think when a problem of any sort arises with an individual, it is very difficult to resolve due to the poor hierarchical structuring. It's a good enough reason for me to insist that all the team use the same coach. If you don't want to use the team coach, don't be on the team.

That magazine was very tough to read. If I used the magnifier, I could not turn the page. Nor could I zoom out or go back so I could turn the page. I had to go back to the beginning of the mag and start over for every page I wanted to read. How the heck was that supposed to work?

There was one paragraph I found intriguing and would like to quote, but I won't do it without instruction on page turning.

Kathy,
I figured the website out and it is a bit of a nuisance. It takes a few minutes for the page turning and zoom features to load. Once they load, you can click and hold down the mouse on the right hand page, and drag the page over. You need to click again to keep the page turned over. It is also a nuisance to zoom, since you need to click the magnifier, then click the page for each page that you want to magnify.
EH

DairyQueen2049
Dec. 13, 2006, 01:39 PM
You can count on it. Winners (and the rich)(and the beautiful) are always forgiven.

But not OJ!!!

Sabine
Dec. 13, 2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks TS for posting this.

kkj
Dec. 13, 2006, 03:05 PM
Yes TS thanks for the article. Makes GM look much less culpable. Makes me feel a little bad for him.

However, there is a reason that these poles are not used at horseshows. Some people with some clout felt they were unsafe prior to this accident. If anything good could have come out of this it would have been for private barns and trainers to stop using these poles. However, it was touted as a "freak" accident so no fault on the perfect stake sized metal pole.

Just because some horse people in some discipline regularly do something ie chains on saddlebreds does not make it OK. But because everyone else is doing it, GM does not look so bad. Had he come out after the accident and said I will never use these poles again, coming from someone with his clout may have actually influenced a lot of people to follow suit. Instead the pole disappeared and for that day that was that.

Moll
Dec. 13, 2006, 03:14 PM
OK this is where I won't stay quiet. I had the extreme pleasure and good fortune to spend over a year at Kyras' with a certain horse that shall remain nameless. I watched Kyra ride on a daily basis for hours. NOT ONCE, NOT ONCE EVER did I see Kyra be rough or strong handed with any animal. You Know nothing of what you say. Her students are all quite professional and treat their horses with kindness and respect. She herself has great compassion and is so skilled in communicating with horses that she needs no strength in her conversation with a horse. She is magnificent to watch school horses. They take to her and love her.


Is loyalty always a two way street?

I'm sorry if my view upsets you but I have seen a lot of her training and pupils and I stand by my view. I hope we can agree to disagree on this.

poltroon
Dec. 13, 2006, 03:53 PM
We are not talking about bitless bareback carrot stick horse huggers finding her methods too rough.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

PS: Thank you, TS.

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 04:09 PM
I guess people are still talking about GM. I looked up the old thread (Schooling incident at palm beach) and read the interview. No where did it say that people were riding around while there was a dead horse in the ring. I bet SOMEONE made that up. Next they'll be jumping over it. WHEE!That's the type of thing that becomes urban legend when repeated enough times.

I am no big fan of GM but I recognize the guy has chops in his particular discipline. Methinks someone has an axe to grind. This happened six years ago. If there was a problem it should have been dealt with then. I'm more incensed by things like glass shards in boots. It's a whole different category because you won't find a whole lot of credible trainers coming out and saying that is standard fare.

kkj
Dec. 13, 2006, 04:18 PM
Eggy very true, but I think they were plastic shards. Any way good point, so now lets put the whole GM part to rest.

hb
Dec. 13, 2006, 04:31 PM
We are not talking about bitless bareback carrot stick horse huggers finding her methods too rough.

you forgot barefoot!

egontoast
Dec. 13, 2006, 04:35 PM
plastic shards? Oh well then that's peachy. Great idea.:confused:

hb
Dec. 13, 2006, 04:40 PM
Okay, one last word on the GM clinic accident. If I had been one of the other riders in the clinic, I would also have jumped the jump afterwards, probably not with the metal pole, but at least jumped another skinny.

Years ago while out x-c schooling, I saw one of my friends land on an x-c jump, a medium-sized table. Her horse just ran out of gas in midair and landed on the jump with his front feet on one side and his back feet on the other, sitting on his belly on the jump. He then struggled to get free and ended up lying on his side with his feet under the jump, stuck like being cast. It took several people to get him free. He was fine, my friend was fine, but I decided I was done jumping for the day.

It was MONTHS before I was able to jump a table without choking three strides out. If I had to do it all over again I would have gotten back on and jumped that jump right away. GM was right when he said that wasn't something they should go home and sleep on before jumping again.

This might not make sense to someone who doesn't jump but I'm sure many on this board have jumped before.

Sonesta
Dec. 13, 2006, 09:25 PM
Okay, one last word on the GM clinic accident. If I had been one of the other riders in the clinic, I would also have jumped the jump afterwards, probably not with the metal pole, but at least jumped another skinny.

Years ago while out x-c schooling, I saw one of my friends land on an x-c jump, a medium-sized table. Her horse just ran out of gas in midair and landed on the jump with his front feet on one side and his back feet on the other, sitting on his belly on the jump. He then struggled to get free and ended up lying on his side with his feet under the jump, stuck like being cast. It took several people to get him free. He was fine, my friend was fine, but I decided I was done jumping for the day.

It was MONTHS before I was able to jump a table without choking three strides out. If I had to do it all over again I would have gotten back on and jumped that jump right away. GM was right when he said that wasn't something they should go home and sleep on before jumping again.

This might not make sense to someone who doesn't jump but I'm sure many on this board have jumped before.

I feel the same way.

Velvet
Dec. 13, 2006, 11:33 PM
Um, so Eggy, how is it YOU'RE not on everyone's ignore list and I am? I haven't been around for quite a while. I can't believe my reputation precedes me. ;)

Mardi
Dec. 14, 2006, 12:46 AM
That magazine was very tough to read. If I used the magnifier, I could not turn the page. Nor could I zoom out or go back so I could turn the page. I had to go back to the beginning of the mag and start over for every page I wanted to read. How the heck was that supposed to work?

.


Here's how....when you're on the page you want to read, use the magnifier to zoom in. When you're done reading that page and want to go to the next page, click on the X to "close" the page. I know, I know....but don't worry, it just takes you back to where you were before you used the magnifier. Now you can turn the page, and use the magnifier again, etc. :)

egontoast
Dec. 14, 2006, 05:26 AM
Oh Velvet, I see you have posted but since you are on my ignore list I can't see what you wrote. Hehehe. ;) :)

I thought your DQ visual was hilarious!!:lol:

petitefilly
Dec. 14, 2006, 08:13 PM
First, all of you who are talking about GM--get another thread, dragging him into this is ridiculous.

Lesie should be officially reprimanded for any yellow card issuing at the WEG-period. One does not become selected for an international team and then become the world's biggest ass and not have repercussions. If she were indeed issued a warning, and if she became unsportsmanlike as a rider for the USA she should have sanctions against her. Some kind of reprimand is demanded of an individual representing a country in an international event where you are a team member. Period.

Nowhere on this earth can you be an ass in public and not have it effect your life. It is not proper, it is not correct, and certainly as a team member you have a duty to display your horse and yourself in a professional and polite matter. NO MATTER WHAT.

Those of you brushing her off as a lesbian with a hard disposition are incorrect in your assessment. It does not matter what sex you are, who your sex partners are, this is not a reason to be unprofessional in any venue representing your country. MHO she should never be allowed on another team. Nothing less will do, it will send a message to her and others that we will not put up with this kind of behavior. WE paid your way, YOU are representing a COUNTRY, and are not on your own as a free individual. If you want to be that free with your behavior send yourself, pay for everything yourself, and be a private individual. Then we can ignore your behavior.

Velvet
Dec. 14, 2006, 10:29 PM
I agree that her sexuality does not mean anything in this case. If the gay community wants to be treated as equals, and hates stereotypes, then they have to be measured with the same stick we use on the heteros. :yes: Which isn't kind on those having hissie fits.

Oh, and eggie, glad to know you actually looked at my reply even though I'm on your ignore list. ;) I feel so special, and no longer invisible! :lol:

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 15, 2006, 12:08 AM
It seems to me that the situation was exacerbated by Morse having two coaches. Her official American coach is sort of a "lame duck" coach to her, since she does not work with him. So, sending the complaints to Klaus probably did little good. But ring stewards would not officially be able to take complaints to Kyra whom Morse might have listened to as her coach of choice. I think when a problem of any sort arises with an individual, it is very difficult to resolve due to the poor hierarchical structuring. It's a good enough reason for me to insist that all the team use the same coach. If you don't want to use the team coach, don't be on the team.

That magazine was very tough to read. If I used the magnifier, I could not turn the page. Nor could I zoom out or go back so I could turn the page. I had to go back to the beginning of the mag and start over for every page I wanted to read. How the heck was that supposed to work?

There was one paragraph I found intriguing and would like to quote, but I won't do it without instruction on page turning.

How about the steward just strutting up to the rider and giving the rider the yellow card? Why is everyone so afraid to say anything, when the only one that truly CANNOT say anything is the poor horse that is the victim of abusive conduct? In other professional sports stewards don't give the coach a warning before issuing a yellow (or red) card.

Sabine
Dec. 15, 2006, 12:18 AM
How about the steward just strutting up to the rider and giving the rider the yellow card? Why is everyone so afraid to say anything, when the only one that truly CANNOT say anything is the poor horse that is the victim of abusive conduct? In other professional sports stewards don't give the coach a warning before issuing a yellow (or red) card.

Well I guess you really haven't seen Leslie in full force on her stallions yet- especially Tip Top who she's pissed off with most of the time...it takes more than grande balls to do that- let me tell you- I don't envy the steward in that situation...:(

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 15, 2006, 12:20 AM
Well I guess you really haven't seen Leslie in full force on her stallions yet- especially Tip Top who she's pissed off with most of the time...it takes more than grande balls to do that- let me tell you- I don't envy the steward in that situation...:(

You are right, I haven't. But I would probably feel compelled to say something (and probably end up with a black eye!). How did this person get the spot on the USET when there were other riders that could have done a good job, and apparently one that did better in the selection shows?

Sabine
Dec. 15, 2006, 12:24 AM
You are right, I haven't. But I would probably feel compelled to say something (and probably end up with a black eye!). How did this person get the spot on the USET when there were other riders that could have done a good job, and apparently one that did better in the selection shows?

she is truly an outstanding rider- she can do 'anything' on a horse...but I guess that alone is not enough- especially if the temper is not so good...:(

physical.energy
Dec. 15, 2006, 01:06 AM
Like the ump in the world series.....YOU'RRRRRRRRRRRRE OUT!!!!!!! LEAVE THE FIELD!:winkgrin:

pophorse
Dec. 15, 2006, 07:06 AM
I agree, a rider's sexual preference does not allow room for unacceptable behaviour when he or she has been given the honor to represent his/her country at any international event.
Many many riders would donate a body part to be given this honor, while some seem to unfortunately take it for granted.
Besides this, we have had-and still have-outstanding riders in our national team that are gay or lesbian and have always conducted themselves with the utmost respect and professionalism, as they should. My kudos to them for setting such an example!
So no, there's no excuse for LM's conduct and the wimpy German steward should have given her the yellow card on the spot, as they did to another rider from the US jumping team who kicked her horse after falling off when it stopped at a CSI in Europe recently.
I have personally witnessed LM in Palm Beach "warming up" Tip Top and let me tell you that horse was in a state of terror-bulging eyeballs, profuse sweat, shaking, curled lips, ears back. The pressure was unrelenting, it was a sad sight.
Now what's a lesser evil-this or rollkur? Why is there no attention paid to this kind of riding from the media and other detractors of Anky & Co.?

yaya
Dec. 15, 2006, 08:21 AM
A friend of mine has a funny story about Gladstone, but since it's not my story to tell, I won't spell it out here.

Suffice it to say, my friend got yelled at by Leslie Morse, but my friend yelled right back! She didn't care who it was, she wasn't going to be treated that way. (After reading this, I'll have to tell her she's lucky she didn't get punched out!)

It's too bad that officials (stewards and selection members) don't have the same amount of guts.

kkj
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:16 AM
Yeah YaYa if she crossed my path I don't think I would back down. Maybe they should hire bodyguards to be ready to back up the Steward and kick some a$$ if needed.

Anyway, I don't think gay and lesbians should get special treatment either. That was not what I meant to imply. I just think a lesbian should be able to get away with behavior a man can get away with. A manly lesbian should be able to act like a man without reprecusions. However, it sounds like the behavior of LM is out of line whatever her sex or sexual preference. I think she probably should have gotten the yellow card. Since I didn't see it, I can't say for sure, but all reports seem to lean that way.

ToN Farm
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:17 AM
I have personally witnessed LM in Palm Beach "warming up" Tip Top and let me tell you that horse was in a state of terror-bulging eyeballs, profuse sweat, shaking, curled lips, ears back. The pressure was unrelenting, it was a sad sight.
Now what's a lesser evil-this or rollkur? Why is there no attention paid to this kind of riding from the media and other detractors of Anky & Co.?

Does anybody know WHY? If this is true, then it means that horses will continue to perform well, despite abusive training.

kkj
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:27 AM
Sometimes I can't believe the crap a horse will put up with. I think this is why they are beasts of burden.

However isn't it also possible that Tip Top is not performing anywhere near as well as he could? Might he not be scoring a lot higher with a kinder ride? I don't know this is just specualation, but I have thought about it.

Horsedances
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:36 AM
Sometimes I can't believe the crap a horse will put up with. I think this is why they are beasts of burden.

However isn't it also possible that Tip Top is not performing anywhere near as well as he could? Might he not be scoring a lot higher with a kinder ride? I don't know this is just specualation, but I have thought about it.

We are all talking about mis-behaviour etc... etc..., but (bullet-proof jacket on) can somebody on this forum tell me that LM is a good rider ?

Untill today I didn't see any proof of this.

Theo

GansMyMan
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:55 AM
I'm with Horsedances on this one. How can one say that LM is a good rider and then talk about her horse as being poorly treated and/or unhappy with his work? I always thought the mark of a good rider is a happy partner. And I say partner, not beast of burden. Also, am I the only one who is completely baffled at the equation: lesbian woman = manly behavior = total a$$ = That's ok?

nhwr
Dec. 15, 2006, 11:01 AM
How about the steward just strutting up to the rider and giving the rider the yellow card? Why is everyone so afraid to say anything, when the only one that truly CANNOT say anything is the poor horse that is the victim of abusive conduct? In other professional sports stewards don't give the coach a warning before issuing a yellow (or red) card.

Originally Posted by Sabine http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2064929#post2064929)
Well I guess you really haven't seen Leslie in full force on her stallions yet- especially Tip Top who she's pissed off with most of the time...it takes more than grande balls to do that- let me tell you- I don't envy the steward in that situation...:(
You are right, I haven't. But I would probably feel compelled to say something (and probably end up with a black eye!). How did this person get the spot on the USET when there were other riders that could have done a good job, and apparently one that did better in the selection shows?Sorry Sabine I gotta disagree. I am with YankeeLawyer here.

My only vis a vis with LM was when she stopped her rig just beyond the guard shack at Del Mar to check her hitch and play with the wiring for the lights on her trailer. It was Sunday afternoon and everyone was anxious to be outta there. She had a whole line of trailers backed up and I was the first one behind her. I got out to talk to her (though at first I didn't know it was her..... I thought it was a guy :eek: ) She wasn't really happy when I asked her to pull off to the side so the rest of us peons could leave, but so what? LM's personality quirks and riding habits have been known for years. She has always had a reputation for being "a bit rough". USEF selected her anyway. They were either naive or they don't care.

And what is the point of having an FEI steward if they are too scared to cite a competitor for a problem and want to leave enforcement of the rules to the team coach? Oh that is going to work well, especially with the LM KK KB situation :rolleyes:

Velvet
Dec. 15, 2006, 12:33 PM
Anyway, I don't think gay and lesbians should get special treatment either. That was not what I meant to imply. I just think a lesbian should be able to get away with behavior a man can get away with. A manly lesbian should be able to act like a man without reprecusions.

What the huh? :lol: Men aren't allowed to misbehave any more than women (no matter what their sexual preference). This has to be one of the more bizarre comments I've seen written out here in a LONG time. :lol: People are people, and when you are in competition exhibitors are expected to behave by certain rules and standards or they will be penalized.

It also begs the question...what about hetero woman who are strong willed and bad tempered? Are woman who are hetero supposed to be door mats? :lol: Oh, man, this just opens up a whole new can of worms that has NO basis in reality. :lol:

Capriole
Dec. 15, 2006, 01:43 PM
Also, am I the only one who is completely baffled at the equation: lesbian woman = manly behavior = total a$$ = That's ok?
Nope!

That post had me :confused: and :eek: .

canyonoak
Dec. 15, 2006, 02:42 PM
Thank you, shadowdancer, whoever you are.

First you tell us all to read an article that makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of the incident to which you now allege and keep posting about, and now you carry on with 'firsthand' descriptions and EXPLANATIONS of international dressage policial subtleties.

wowsers.

Coreene
Dec. 15, 2006, 02:55 PM
Thank you, shadowdancer, whoever you are.

First you tell us all to read an article that makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of the incident to which you now allege and keep posting about, and now you carry on with 'firsthand' descriptions and EXPLANATIONS of international dressage policial subtleties.

wowsers.
And then deletes the post. :lol:

physical.energy
Dec. 15, 2006, 02:57 PM
damnit, I leave my computer for a few hours and I missed something. :lol:

Sabine
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:05 PM
I'm with Horsedances on this one. How can one say that LM is a good rider and then talk about her horse as being poorly treated and/or unhappy with his work? I always thought the mark of a good rider is a happy partner. And I say partner, not beast of burden. Also, am I the only one who is completely baffled at the equation: lesbian woman = manly behavior = total a$$ = That's ok?

I think you are right on that one and I should say: she is an extremely capable rider...by capable I mean she can execute a lot of stuff very competently. That does not mean that she is very much into feeling, intuition or partnership. I think she is more into the 'total submission' concept...

As far as her private life style that has nothing to do with anything we are discussing here.

nhwr
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by shadowdancer

The Steward at Aachen The Steward at Aachen was not German, he was Dutch. Try to understand the significance of that please. The coach of the US Team lights the fire of the witch hunt against Anky Van Grunsven and the Rollk├╝r after the World Cup in 2005. Most of the Europeans are embarassed about this controversy that they feel is unfair. Anky has a method/system...she sticks to it and it works for her. The Europeans, even the Dutch, in their embarassment over this negative and derogatory action in the press about Anky, do not want to participate in the same behavior. They find it unprofessional.

Out of deference to the sport and perhaps to the United States, and perhaps also to show the US Coach how this sort of thing should be delicately handled privately--not in the press--the DUTCH Steward at Aachen was making a point: Your rider is OTT. I'll give you one chance to keep this unofficial and out of the papers.

The Steward at Aachen would not have hesitated to issue a yellow card if the US officials had not intervened on Leslie's behalf. This wasn't a question of balls, but rather, protocol.
Last edited by shadowdancer : Dec. 15, 2006 at 07:25 PM. Reason: misspelling, clarity
I read shadowdancer's (nice name for an alter, doncha think?) now deleted post where she said that steward, who was Dutch, was trying to show KB how to deal with problems by example, to give consideration to "protocol" rather than to play things out in the press. 'Cuse me? Isn't that what is going on here?

Protocol says when the rider is "over the top", as shadowdancer put it, they should be warned with a yellow card. Going the coach and letting him address the issue is a political response. Stewards have no business playing politics. If the rider is out of line, it is not the steward's concern to consider what has been and what might be in press. That is not the steward's function regardless of their nationality.

My understanding is no card was given. So either the steward blew it or this is a tempest in a tea pot. I am not a big fan of LM but if her behavior didn't warrant a yellow card, this is a DQ gossip fest.
Like that is a shock :eek:

Coreene
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:16 PM
I am not a big fan of LM but if her behavior didn't warrant a yellow card, this is a DQ gossip fest.
Or she just got lucky. ;)

nhwr
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:24 PM
:yes:

kkj
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:29 PM
What the huh? :lol: Men aren't allowed to misbehave any more than women (no matter what their sexual preference). This has to be one of the more bizarre comments I've seen written out here in a LONG time. :lol: People are people, and when you are in competition exhibitors are expected to behave by certain rules and standards or they will be penalized.

It also begs the question...what about hetero woman who are strong willed and bad tempered? Are woman who are hetero supposed to be door mats? :lol: Oh, man, this just opens up a whole new can of worms that has NO basis in reality. :lol:
Some of you Velvet and Gans My Man inparticular are totally misunderstanding my posts. It may be the way it is written, so let me try again. I do not think a man should get away with more than a woman or a gay woman with more than a straight one or anything that bizarre. I am only saying that a gay woman should be able to get away with as much as a man does. What I mean by this is a lot of people will accept a certain degree of bruteness, curtness, deliberateness whatever from a man but get offended or irritated if a women behaves in an identical fashion. This could also be the case with a straight woman who is more assertive than the norm. If LM were just behaving on these lines and some people were to find it offensive, I for one would back her up. I think people despite their appearence, $$$ worth or sexual perferences should be held up to the same standard. I think I am more tolerant of rude, loud, drunk, obnoxious behavior than the norm. (I am probably less tolerant of rough behavior towards a horse or any animal than the norm) In this case, it seems that LM behavior goes beyond what the norm would consider acceptable for anyone- man, woman, hermaphrodite what have you. At first I thought some people were just offended by her forceful nature, but it seems from all accounts she was out of line. If she was as out of line as reported, I feel a yellow card was in order.

Equibrit
Dec. 15, 2006, 03:46 PM
I don't think YOU know what YOU you are saying;

"I do not think a man should get away with more than a woman.""I am only saying that a gay woman should be able to get away with as much as a man does."

Why EXACTLY?

egontoast
Dec. 15, 2006, 05:09 PM
I'm slow I guess. What does sexuality have to do with any of this?

Equibrit
Dec. 15, 2006, 05:15 PM
Absolutely nothing. Except that somebody seems to have this strange pecking order for people being pricks. Maybe paraplegics have license to behave the worst!

lizathenag
Dec. 15, 2006, 06:19 PM
Maybe paraplegics have license to behave the worst!

huh?

Having just spent some time in a wheelchair, I have a new understanding of why some folks aren't always feeling and acting like a ray of sunshine.

KayBee
Dec. 15, 2006, 07:05 PM
Oy. Probably shouldn't be stepping in here (new to the board!), but if I can clarify on kkj's behalf?

There are general behaviors that society defines as "feminine" versus "masculine": women are perceived as "nurturing" and men as "assertive." Women as concensus builders and men as comfortable with conflict. Yada, yada.

This extends, too, to physical characteristics, mannerisms, even vocal tones. (Women nod and gesture more than men; men have lower voices than women; women are curvy, men are muscular.)

Those, generally, are cultural stereotypes for heterosexuals. One of the truisms of gender-based cultural analysis (and again, talking broad stereotypes) is that in homosexuals, those stereotypes are flipped. Women are masculine, with low voices; men express themselves with "flamboyant" gestures, etc.

None of these stereotypes are based on absolutes. There's a Bell Curve for everything. And it's certainly not true that any woman with a low voice is a lesbian, any more than a man who gestures exuberantly is necessarily gay.

But back to kkj's point: In general, society is more comfortable with assertive behavior in the male of the species than in the female. It's taken decades to get the point across that assertive woman are neither unwomanly, nor necessarily lesbians. And, there are conservative cultural pockets here and there in U.S. society, and abroad. kkj's point, I think is that women shouldn't be penalized for being appropriately assertive. She is, I think, arguing for everyone to be held to the same standard.

::stepping back::

Velvet
Dec. 15, 2006, 07:27 PM
I don't think YOU know YOU you are saying;

"I do not think a man should get away with more than a woman.""I am only saying that a gay woman should be able to get away with as much as a man does."

Why EXACTLY?

:yes: :yes:

:lol:

I just want to know how old the poster is on that comment. Makes me worry about the future if they are young. Makes the misunderstanding of what a man and woman are (at the DNA level) even more confusing if they are older. :lol:

Boy, this conversation is truly going from the absurd to the sublime--but at least it's an entertaining ride! ;) Oh, wait, let me clarify the use of the term "boy" in my previous sentence, so there's no confusion. I meant it as an exclamation. Not a term to call males to the topic, or females who might behave in a way other people think is masculine, when in fact it's always been a characteristic of straight females who are more assertive. *snicker*

egontoast
Dec. 15, 2006, 08:20 PM
Er..Velvet...you are acting awfully ....um....assertive...not that there is anything wrong with that.

kkj
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:19 PM
Kaybee thank you so much. You very eloquently said exactly what I have been trying to myself.

I think everyone should be treated the same and held up to the same standard regardless of what is in his/her pants. Unfortunately, that is just not the way the world is. If you think the world should not be this way or that it already is this way, well then I just give up.

And no I don't think this should have anything to do with sexual orientation but on some level it does. Unfortunate but true. We often don't realize our prejudices or subconsciously held beliefs. I am not asserting at all that everyone or even most people feel this way(namely prejudice against lesbians), but certainly many many people do. I have a great inclination that LM's recent behavior would still be seen as out of line even if she was a straight woman, a gay or straight man or a monkey. Still it is possible that her behavior would be less outrageous in the eyes of many people (and I am not accusing any of you specifically here) if she was a straight man.

Velvet
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:33 PM
Er..Velvet...you are acting awfully ....um....assertive...not that there is anything wrong with that.


No, no, no, since I'm a straight/hetero female that would be termed "aggressive". ;) :D Oh, and probably gender and orientation confusing. :lol:

nhwr
Dec. 15, 2006, 10:59 PM
I just want to know how old the poster is on that comment.Not as old as you, Velvet. No one, no matter what their sexual orientation, is that old :p

YoungFilly
Dec. 15, 2006, 11:03 PM
No, no, no, since I'm a straight/hetero female that would be termed "aggressive". ;) :D Oh, and probably gender and orientation confusing. :lol:


You know Velvet, you could actually get me banned. :mad:

Enough for tonight.

Velvet
Dec. 16, 2006, 01:10 AM
Not as old as you, Velvet. No one, no matter what their sexual orientation, is that old :p

Ah, now THIS is more like the good old days, and since you were there too, I think you are dating yourself as well. ;)

Oh, and as for youngfilly, :lol: that was funny.

nhwr
Dec. 16, 2006, 01:34 AM
Ah, now THIS is more like the good old days, and since you were there too, I think you are dating yourself as well.It is a tough job but some one has to do it :lol:

For the record, I read about you in an ancient history text that fell out of Maria's book bag as she slid under a barstool.

physical.energy
Dec. 16, 2006, 01:43 AM
Frankly, I'm tired of dating myself:winkgrin:

egontoast
Dec. 16, 2006, 05:47 AM
Oh yeah?

Well I'm so cheap I won't even date myself!:no:

mazymind
Dec. 16, 2006, 12:13 PM
wow! And I've been around LM for years and never ever thought that she was:
Abusive
A hard a$$
Obnoxious
or even- gay!

Must have blinders on or something, eh?

Gee, all those times I've been a fly on the wall, watching her ride (even Tip Top by the way) and I just thought she could use a bit more of a systematic approach.

Well, now I KNOW- it's becuase she's a horrid, abusive, wretch of a lesbian!

By the way, Theo, I woudl not consider LM to be a particularly gifted rider- what I've always admired about her is the way she uses everything she has to the utmost, and is willing to work as hard as it takes to improve.

At least, that's what I thought up till now, when I've been enlightened by the internet chat gurus that she's just a worthless bad nasty brutal beast.

nhwr
Dec. 16, 2006, 12:19 PM
:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy: It is not about where she sleeps at night, mazymind. Nobody cares about that.

ESG
Dec. 16, 2006, 12:42 PM
Um, has anyone else ever ridden or shown "poor" Tip Top? Perhaps he needs the ride Leslie gives him, in order to perform at all? I learned a long time ago, not to judge how others ride their horses unless you've had an opportunity to plunk your hindparts in their saddles. Gives you a whoooole different perspective. ;)

I'm with Coreene et al, who think this is just a way to sell magazines. :no:

And, FWIW, LM is far from the first to behave badly at a show. Not as badly as LM, but thoughtlessly, to say the least. I was witness to an incident a few years back, in which another Olympic rider couldn't be bothered during her warm-up, to be told that her ride time had arrived and that the judge was waiting for her. Instead of being eliminated for not entering the ring punctually, the judge accepted the excuse of her retinue, that she was "in the zone" and couldn't be interrupted to come ride her test. Never mind that she was holding everyone up, and the ring ran about 20 minutes late the rest of the day, inconveniencing God knows how many other riders; she had to be allowed to complete her warm-up at her leisure, because of her status. :rolleyes: I wasn't the only one POed that day, and I wasn't even riding. :no:

Moll
Dec. 17, 2006, 03:02 AM
Um, has anyone else ever ridden or shown "poor" Tip Top? Perhaps he needs the ride Leslie gives him, in order to perform at all?

Horses are nice creatures on the whole. If you need to abuse them (not saying LM did, now, I wasn't there) to make them perform there is either something wrong with the horse or with the rider.

So far, in my opinion, each and every horse has been willing to perform if they're rewarded for doing the right thing.

ESG
Dec. 17, 2006, 08:47 AM
No offense intended, Moll, but it sounds like you need to ride a few more horses. ;)

There are horses out there who won't perform unless they're apparently being "manhandled". Not that they can't, or don't want to, but that's just the particular ride they need. And, they're often stallions. I say that until one of us has a chance to ride Tip Top and do a better job than LM, she shouldn't be criticized for getting what she gets out of the horse. And apparently, the selection committee was pleased enough with what she gets, that she was given the nod to compete.

JMO. :cool:

eqipoize
Dec. 17, 2006, 08:50 PM
Of course, we never know for sure how a horse might act given a different ride, since advanced horses rarely change hands - and when they do, they are usually ridden in the manner they were trained.

However, I stand by the teachings of Walter Zettl who feels that if you train to the limit, but not Over the limit, the horse retains his generous nature.

Many years ago, my stallion started 'behaving badly'. I started to go to the mat to make him obey. One day I decided that if that is what it took to ride him, I didn't want to ride. So, I looked for another route. It took 9 months, but we resolved the issue, WITHOUT Violence. I honestly DO NOT BELIEVE that a horse exists that Has to be Manhandled to 'get him to perform'. And, I think that any time riding dissolves into manhandling, it ceases to be dressage, and therefore the rider needs to rethink their approach.

I am sorry that you think there are some horses that deserve to be manhandled in the name of getting some performance out of them. I think the saying "Where violence begins, art ends" says it all.

physical.energy
Dec. 17, 2006, 09:42 PM
Of course, we never know for sure how a horse might act given a different ride, since advanced horses rarely change hands - and when they do, they are usually ridden in the manner they were trained.

However, I stand by the teachings of Walter Zettl who feels that if you train to the limit, but not Over the limit, the horse retains his generous nature.

Many years ago, my stallion started 'behaving badly'. I started to go to the mat to make him obey. One day I decided that if that is what I took to ride him, I didn't want to ride. So, I looked for another route. It took 9 months, but we resolved the issue, WITHOUT Violence. I honestly DO NOT BELIEVE that a horse exists that Has to be Manhandled to 'get him to perform'. And, I think that any time riding dissolves into manhandling, it ceases to be dressage, and therefore the rider needs to rethink their approach.

I am sorry that you think there are some horses that deserve to be manhandled in the name of getting some performance out of them. I think the saying "Where violence begins, art ends" says it all.

I have to agree with you and Moll. I have evolved to the philosophy that if you have to manhandle a horse to get them to perform then they need another job that will make them more agreeable. Horses are very giving creatures and should be respected and appreciated as such. My other philosophy that I have developed in the last few years.... "The wellness of the horse should never be compromised for the ego of a human". ;) That statement fit's in oh so many aspects!

Sabine
Dec. 17, 2006, 11:46 PM
I have to agree with you and Moll. I have evolved to the philosophy that if you have to manhandle a horse to get them to perform then they need another job that will make them more agreeable. Horses are very giving creatures and should be respected and appreciated as such. My other philosophy that I have developed in the last few years.... "The wellness of the horse should never be compromised for the ego of a human". ;) That statement fit's in oh so many aspects!

Ditto that 100%- it's the partnership with the horse- the real TRUST- that makes the difference and it is to a certain degree the ability of the rider to wait and let the horse come forward and gain confidence in its own way- that makes the work so much better. Sometimes- when you watch really closely - you can see what 'style' the rider has and how the horse was trained- and I have to say- LM does not strike me as one that prefers the partnership approach- which is no judgement - just not what I am looking for.

Cowgirl
Dec. 18, 2006, 12:26 AM
Eggy, Tip Top was owned, trained and shown by Kyra Kyrklund until he was ten. That's when LM bought him. Kyra won the Swedish "triple crown" with Tip Top (winning the swedish four year old, five year old and six year old championships) and is the only horse ever to have done so. He is by Master, Kyra's former competition horse, that Kyra says puts on such a willing and trainable temperment.

Just because you asked.

Sabine
Dec. 18, 2006, 12:48 AM
Eggy, Tip Top was owned, trained and shown by Kyra Kyrklund until he was ten. That's when LM bought him. Kyra won the Swedish "triple crown" with Tip Top (winning the swedish four year old, five year old and six year old championships) and is the only horse ever to have done so. He is by Master, Kyra's former competition horse, that Kyra says puts on such a willing and trainable temperment.

Just because you asked.

Thank you for these details-one more likely reason to believe that the horse could have been a partner...I have only heard great things about Master offspring...none of which sounded like super difficult to ride...

raff
Dec. 18, 2006, 02:28 AM
It actually requires an extremely good temperament for a horse to cop such abuse.
It has to be realised that this horse could dispatch that woman at any time he chose,the fact that he doesn't shows who is the bigger person.

ESG
Dec. 18, 2006, 03:31 AM
I am sorry that you think there are some horses that deserve to be manhandled in the name of getting some performance out of them. I think the saying "Where violence begins, art ends" says it all.

Do please read for comprehension. If you look back, I said "apparently being 'manhandled'". IOW, just because someone looks at a horse and says, "Gee, that horsie doesn't look happy", doesn't mean that the horse isn't getting the ride it needs. Again, until you plunk your butt down in Tip Top's saddle, don't make judgements as to how he needs to be ridden.

Just because a horse is by a stallion with a good mind, who throws good minds, doesn't mean that that particular horse has one. And, the brilliant ones are almost always difficult. Anyone remember a lovely, very hot Westphalian named Rembrandt? There was a lot of hoo-raw about how Nicole Uphoff would ride him for an hour on GP day with his nose basically sottered to his chest...................clearly, "manhandling" of the first water. Perception is a funny thing. :winkgrin:

egontoast
Dec. 18, 2006, 04:55 AM
Eggy, Tip Top was owned, trained and shown by Kyra Kyrklund until he was ten. That's when LM bought him. Kyra won the Swedish "triple crown" with Tip Top (winning the swedish four year old, five year old and six year old championships) and is the only horse ever to have done so. He is by Master, Kyra's former competition horse, that Kyra says puts on such a willing and trainable temperment.

Just because you asked.


I did? I must be losing it.
Thanks for the info even though I don't remember asking!:lol:

eqipoize
Dec. 18, 2006, 10:39 AM
Do please read for comprehension. If you look back, I said "apparently being 'manhandled'". IOW, just because someone looks at a horse and says, "Gee, that horsie doesn't look happy", doesn't mean that the horse isn't getting the ride it needs. Again, until you plunk your butt down in Tip Top's saddle, don't make judgements as to how he needs to be ridden.

Just because a horse is by a stallion with a good mind, who throws good minds, doesn't mean that that particular horse has one. And, the brilliant ones are almost always difficult. Anyone remember a lovely, very hot Westphalian named Rembrandt? There was a lot of hoo-raw about how Nicole Uphoff would ride him for an hour on GP day with his nose basically sottered to his chest...................clearly, "manhandling" of the first water. Perception is a funny thing. :winkgrin:

I say if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. So if someone's schooling session LOOKS like manhandling, then it probably IS - can't think of a situation where good training would look abusive TO an Educated Horseperson. I know that non horsepeople often misunderstand the use of aids and cues and any use of the whip looks bad to some of them - but I would assume a steward at a show would have a clue about training horses, and would know the difference. And we have a variety of people who have seen a trend in LM's techniques. These are not horse hugging carrot stick wavers (as someone else so cleverly put it!) they are dressage riders, and they consider the work a bit 'tough'. I say it doesn't have to be that way - no matter WHAT the horse's disposition. As far as Nicole, who says I supported HER method of glueing her horse's nose on his chest? I think that was another form of manhandling - only since it was designed for a 'weak' woman to control a strong horse, I guess it could be called "womanhandling" - which takes us round the circle to the gender based attitudes! :eek:

Anyway, I will probably never have the chance to ride Tip Top, but I will continue to have opinions about the use of strength and power to impose submission on horses in the name of dressage. I consider it unnecessary and a horrible injustice imposed on a very generous creature. When horses are resistant, it is the HUMANS fault - not the horses. imo.

mazymind
Dec. 18, 2006, 12:22 PM
My impression was not that she "manhandled" Tip Top when I have seen her schooling- it's just that she doesn't ever seem to give the horse a chance- just throws movements, aids, expectations at him without any real rhyme or reason, and the horse is sweating trying to fulfill her desires.

While that certainly is not brutality, it's not (at least in my mind and understanding) the kind of sympathetic training that builds trust between willing partners. Which is why I said she lacks methodology, a systematic approach where the horse has a chance to anticipate and react to the riders aids without mental or physical tension developing.

Another word for that is "routine"- the classical approach is a systematic warm up including gymnastics, stretching, and suppling, followed by the work out- where the horse is "set up" for the next exercise so that he has a chance to understand what is to come, react to the demand, and fulfill it without feeling pressured or uncertain-, and then the loosening cool down period where the horse is released from any performance pressures and rewarded for his good job.

OK, I'm a very classical dressage trainer/rider, but there's certainly nothing wrong with this methodology, it's tried and true, and whenever I've seen LM clinicing with some of the greatest trainers of our era, they have always stressed this approach to her as well. Which is why I was so surprised when I see her working on her own that she doesn't seem to follow suit. After Klimke, Anky VG (Yes, even the dreaded rollkur woman!), KB, and KK, I mean, this is the elite list of lists! If these people don't know how to have a work session with a horse, none of us do!

I disagree that Tip Top is a horse which is difficult to ride and needs to have harsh aids applied to him to make him perform. That horse would turn himself inside out to please her from my observations- but her riding style is muddled and excuse me, unfair to the horse, because she will do such things as extended canter to passage to 20 singles to piaffe- in less than 45 seconds with NO set up, or half halts, or any indication of what's coming up. This is straight out of the stall; this is what she does as a warm up. It's no wonder a horse sweats if a rider consistently rides like this- it's not possible for him to relax and not worry about what's she's suddenly going to ask of him- he must feel completely overfaced all the time, I don't care how talented or capable he might be.

Not only does a sequence of exercises as above described not have much value (if any) as a warm up, I can't for the life of me see what value they might have for show competition either. You wouldn't even put on a freestyle with a muddled repertoire like that- the judges wouldn't have any more of a clue of what you were trying to accomplish, and would certainly not pin you up for it.

Since no one will actually state what she was doing that was so terrible in the warm up at WEG (but not terrible enough so that she was actually carded by the officials standing there watching), I'll guess we'll never know what was deemed so awful that a slanderous article had to be written about her.

Mozart
Dec. 18, 2006, 01:24 PM
I dunno. I am nobody and I know nothing, but what bugs me is that now I have an impression about somebody I did not have before. Maybe she is the second coming of Cruella DeVille, maybe she is has been done wrong. But I don't know the truth and I think the author of the article should either be specific and let people make up their own minds or say nothing. The half measure of "suggestion" is not fair.

Was her warmup abusive? If so, why no yellow card? If it deserved a yellow card then should we not be criticizing the steward? Horses don't care about the nationality of the officials and the riders. Aren't they the reason we all do this?

Was she drunk and obnoxious? Is it against the team rules to be so? If not, it is of no moment. If it is against the rules, the chef should have warned her once and then put her on a plane if it happens again.

Do the team rules say you have to work with the team coach? If so then she should be taken to task by the governing body for saying "ppfffhhhtt" to the team coach. If not against the rules, well, I guess she gets to say "ppphhhttt" if she wants to.

Perhaps I am being naive about international competition in our "uber litigious" times but

It is the innuendo that bugs me. Either have the guts to say what she did or say nothing. Incidentally, I would imagine that if an American witnessed, in person, abusive riding by one of their team members, they would be in a position to make a complaint to their team's governing body regardless of whether or not the competition steward took action. So I say, any American who witnessed the warmup and thought it was abusive and is prepared to say so on a public BB should put their $ where their mouth is and lodge a complaint to their team's governing body.

Coreene
Dec. 18, 2006, 03:05 PM
I'm with Coreene et al, who think this is just a way to sell magazines. Actually, what I said was "about bloody time" and "karma's a bitch, ain't it?" I don't recall saying it was a way to sell magazines. I'm actually pleased that someone shined a big spotlight on it.

Cowgirl
Dec. 18, 2006, 05:00 PM
I did? I must be losing it.
Thanks for the info even though I don't remember asking!:lol:

It was ESG who asked. I am old and need reading glasses. LOL! However, that doesn't mean you aren't losing it anyway.

MEP
Dec. 18, 2006, 05:04 PM
I dunno. I am nobody and I know nothing ...

Do the team rules say you have to work with the team coach? If so then she should be taken to task by the governing body for saying "ppfffhhhtt" to the team coach. If not against the rules, well, I guess she gets to say "ppphhhttt" if she wants to.

Perhaps I am being naive about international competition in our "uber litigious" times but

It is the innuendo that bugs me. Either have the guts to say what she did or say nothing. Incidentally, I would imagine that if an American witnessed, in person, abusive riding by one of their team members, they would be in a position to make a complaint to their team's governing body regardless of whether or not the competition steward took action. So I say, any American who witnessed the warmup and thought it was abusive and is prepared to say so on a public BB should put their $ where their mouth is and lodge a complaint to their team's governing body.

Another nobody voting here, and I agree. The witnesses could complain. And perhaps that could/should be done in this case.

As noted by others, and Mazymind's discussion makes sense here, the official was no doubt alarmed by her display, but knows it's a subjective call, therefore difficult to prosecute. We all know that there's a line there that should never be crossed. Clear-cut abuse may be "beating" - that's a simple call, easy to make. But this sounds a little more like a combination of mental with some degree of physical abuse - mental abuse is abuse none-the-less. But it's tricky. Again, maybe a gutsy witness should raise the issue with the USET/USEF and give her a CTJ moment.

I know there are some horses who have a "make-me" attitude which can be frustrating. But: 1) it doesn't sound like Tip-top is one of them, and 2) even if he was, you can't force these horses, you have to find some way around the attitude. Doesn't sound as if LM is there yet, and it doesn't sound as if she has any motivation or desire to get there. Too bad. But perhaps she needs the wake-up call.

Home Again Farm
Dec. 18, 2006, 06:37 PM
That horse would turn himself inside out to please her from my observations- but her riding style is muddled and excuse me, unfair to the horse, because she will do such things as extended canter to passage to 20 singles to piaffe- in less than 45 seconds with NO set up, or half halts, or any indication of what's coming up. This is straight out of the stall; this is what she does as a warm up. It's no wonder a horse sweats if a rider consistently rides like this- it's not possible for him to relax and not worry about what's she's suddenly going to ask of him- he must feel completely overfaced all the time, I don't care how talented or capable he might be.

This makes me very sad for the poor horse. :confused::sadsmile:

Velvet
Dec. 18, 2006, 06:37 PM
On a side note, I saw something interesting related to LM. She's looking for a groom/working student. Just go out to http://www.yardandgroom.com/Jobs/job.aspx?id=1121, I saw it under the Rider-Dressage section (she lists Tip Top as one of the horses that needs care). :D

Equibrit
Dec. 18, 2006, 06:47 PM
Gosh - when would this "groom" have time to sleep? Or is that more than one job?

enlightened529
Dec. 18, 2006, 07:46 PM
On a side note, I saw something interesting related to LM. She's looking for a groom/working student. Just go out to http://www.yardandgroom.com/Jobs/job.aspx?id=1121, I saw it under the Rider-Dressage section (she lists Tip Top as one of the horses that needs care). :D

Word on the street "Be very afraid" :lol: Rumor has it no groom lasts more than a few weeks. Use your imagination, Is this where you'd want to work? Yipes?

Karoline
Dec. 18, 2006, 08:57 PM
I have seen Leslie Morse three times. The first time was a clinic **perhaps five or six years ago**where her way of helping the rider was to repeat the same instruction louder and louder and louder until she climbed on the horse and was unable to solve the problem or do better then the rider.

No blame here, horse was recently imported GP horse and carried himself way BTV, it took a few years to retrain him and the help of another FEI trainer and I judge.

I did not really enjoy her then though I noted she would make a great blues singer, she has the rapsy carrying voice for it. She was not abusive to either the riders or the horse just loud and appearing to not have a great tool kit of exercices and approaches. This was a long time ago though. Before KB and KK.

A few years later I saw her at the LA tryouts -including at the cocktail/diner thing thrown by the Browns (I think???) and in Las Vegas and she seemed to have changed considerably. She looked happier, lighter, rode well and was a crowd favorite with a peculiar way of holding her head slightly cocked which gave her a unique silhouette. Yes, she is a showboat and loved the applauds but she looked so thrilled basking in them that it made her likable.

It is very dissapointing to hear all of this because I suspect its true. It makes me wonder if she is just the tip of the iceberg and how nasty this sport is underneath the veneer of elegance, poise and harmony.

It also makes it imperative that the stewards be country agnostic and dole out the yellow card as deserved without consideration for politics. Othewise, why have stewards?

Cowgirl
Dec. 18, 2006, 09:10 PM
It also makes it imperative that the stewards be country agnostic and dole out the yellow card as deserved without consideration for politics. Othewise, why have stewards?

I completely agree. I think the TDs need to be insulated somehow and feel free about handing them out when deserved. If it's true, I think it was wrong to tell the coach to pull the rider off the horse--what the HECK was the coach doing if he had to BE TOLD to pull her off the horse????? I think the coach should also be held responsible so that they will be more vigilent about not allowing this to happen. Quieting it up does not punish the rider or make them think about what they were doing. It just makes them feel more entitled.

It is wrong to hush these things up; wrong to assign certain people their own personal TDs to try to keep them honest (this is a rumor that has been going around for a while now); wrong to turn a blind eye. If any of this is true, it is the tip of the iceberg and it makes me sick to think that any money I might be paying into the USEF goes toward supporting, hushing up, quieting abuse.

Sabine
Dec. 19, 2006, 12:11 AM
I completely agree. I think the TDs need to be insulated somehow and feel free about handing them out when deserved. If it's true, I think it was wrong to tell the coach to pull the rider off the horse--what the HECK was the coach doing if he had to BE TOLD to pull her off the horse????? I think the coach should also be held responsible so that they will be more vigilent about not allowing this to happen. Quieting it up does not punish the rider or make them think about what they were doing. It just makes them feel more entitled.

It is wrong to hush these things up; wrong to assign certain people their own personal TDs to try to keep them honest (this is a rumor that has been going around for a while now); wrong to turn a blind eye. If any of this is true, it is the tip of the iceberg and it makes me sick to think that any money I might be paying into the USEF goes toward supporting, hushing up, quieting abuse.

you are very correct. There is no documented process in place- there are no penalties in place for not following the process and there is no code of conduct in place and no penalties for not following the code of conduct...everything so far is based on good will and assuming that folks know how to act like professionals and show some grace.

I hope the governing bodies will put this process in place posthaste and enforce it vigilantly - at least for the US- it would make me feel more positive towards contributing and being a member-and more proud in seeing our delegates succeed in the international world.

YoungFilly
Dec. 19, 2006, 12:24 AM
:) what the hell. Wrong thread.

ESG
Dec. 19, 2006, 09:32 AM
Actually, what I said was "about bloody time" and "karma's a bitch, ain't it?" I don't recall saying it was a way to sell magazines. I'm actually pleased that someone shined a big spotlight on it.

Sorry - didn't mean to misquote you.


I say if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. So if someone's schooling session LOOKS like manhandling, then it probably IS - can't think of a situation where good training would look abusive TO an Educated Horseperson. I know that non horsepeople often misunderstand the use of aids and cues and any use of the whip looks bad to some of them - but I would assume a steward at a show would have a clue about training horses, and would know the difference.

And if that were the case, why didn't the steward do anything about it? Still a lot of innuendo and he said-she said, and no facts. I'd give a lot more credibility to an article that stated something like, "Ms. Morse was approached by the ring steward and instructed to refrain from excessive spurring/whipping/whatever", than this bull$h!t speculation. This is not journalism - this is National Enquirer-type sensationalism. Call a spade a spade, if it is one. If it isn't, shut up about it.



And we have a variety of people who have seen a trend in LM's techniques. These are not horse hugging carrot stick wavers (as someone else so cleverly put it!) they are dressage riders, and they consider the work a bit 'tough'. I say it doesn't have to be that way - no matter WHAT the horse's disposition.

Big talk for someone who's never sat on Tip Top's (or, apparently, any difficult horse's) back. Talk to me again when you have, eh? :p


As far as Nicole, who says I supported HER method of glueing her horse's nose on his chest? I think that was another form of manhandling - only since it was designed for a 'weak' woman to control a strong horse, I guess it could be called "womanhandling" - which takes us round the circle to the gender based attitudes! :eek:

Oh, so now Nicole was abusing Rembrandt, too? Boy, I gotta hand it to you - for someone who'd never sat on either horse, you have a hell of a set of stones on you, to be able to criticize the training methods on either of them. :no:


Anyway, I will probably never have the chance to ride Tip Top, but I will continue to have opinions about the use of strength and power to impose submission on horses in the name of dressage. I consider it unnecessary and a horrible injustice imposed on a very generous creature. When horses are resistant, it is the HUMANS fault - not the horses. imo.

Got your PETA membership card yet? :p

Moll
Dec. 19, 2006, 10:52 AM
No offense intended, Moll, but it sounds like you need to ride a few more horses. ;)

There are horses out there who won't perform unless they're apparently being "manhandled".

Yup, so did I think, too. Then I learned to train :)

ESG
Dec. 19, 2006, 01:28 PM
How nice for you, that you always have horses that are always willing to do what you want. I, alas, am not so fortunate. :p

Moll
Dec. 19, 2006, 02:00 PM
Neither did I before ;) A few tips: reward generously, work in very short segments, find the motivating factor - it may be different for every horse. Stallions are great!

mazu
Dec. 19, 2006, 04:25 PM
Oh, so now Nicole was abusing Rembrandt, too? Boy, I gotta hand it to you - for someone who'd never sat on either horse, you have a hell of a set of stones on you, to be able to criticize the training methods on either of them. :no:

You say this, yet you're comfortable asserting that no big eq rider could do a first-level dressage test. I don't understand you.

Sandy M
Dec. 21, 2006, 01:10 PM
Well, manhandling in a crises versus,... what? I've only seen brief clips of LM riding and none of her training a horse, so I'm not qualified to comment, I guess. I've seen still photos where, to my eye, there was some definite stiffness and the horse looked to be very strongly "held" - but I don't think it is fair to judge from a split second photo, so I can't determine anything from those pictures.

I saw a very talented rider/trainer, a specialist in Iberian horses but a BNT with any breed, get on a Hano that was, by then, in his mid-teens and had been screwed up by various trainers from day one. Even from the very beginning, the horse showed much more talent for jumping than dressage, but his then-owner had bought him to be a dressage horse, and by golly, a dressage horse he would be (his sire had excelled as a hunter but had also been shown to FEI levels in dressage). By the time the Iberian trainer got on him at a clinic, he had been through several owners. The second owner had tried to make an event horse out of him, but by then, he was running through anyone's hands and was scary to watch jump. So.... this guy admittedly "manhandled" the horse BRIEFLY and was able to establish some control and obedience. But he got off and IMMEDIATELY addressed the audience to say that he did not LIKE doing what he had just done, but FOR THE MOMENT, it was a safety issue and that the horse was not going to be "fixed" in one clinic session. He recommended turning the horse out for six months to a year, and then starting over as if it were a green horse.

So,....I would tend to say that "manhandling" on a regular basis is something less than an ideal training method, but when it's "your neck or his" it may be justified. So the question is - is "manhandling" LM's go-to technique or ???? I don't know.

mazymind
Dec. 22, 2006, 11:46 AM
I'm going to speak up in defense of LM- I've seen her ride a number of times, and I've never seen her manhandle anything, nor ride roughly or excessively aggressively- in a physical way.

There have been others who have commented about her riding that way, who appear to see her more and know her better, so perhaps she can be tough.

I will say that any rider can have a moment where they have a major CTJ moment- we dont' like it, and we don't like to admit it, but sometimes it happens or is neccessary, for that moment. I have a horse who is just a major bully, and he's quite big and strong, and he's never ever been a light lovely ride in his life, and thinks nothing of pitting his strength against mine. Every single ride is an exercise in reminding him to be light, not to pull, to wait for me, so stay under me, to take a half halt. He's no youngster, and he's no beginner either- he's on the small tour and he's 11. I started the horse, and from the very inception he was this way. So, yes, occasionally when he literally pulls me out of the saddle, there is a firm "Hey! You can't do that! Now, listen to me and remember how to behave yourself!". I'm not proud of the fact that I trained the horse and I can't get him to be more of what I'd like to ride- light and lovely like my other horses, but I have to accept that he is as he is, and ride the horse I have to make him what I'd like to the best of my ability. Every horse is an individual, every horse has his own personality, and every horse interacts with the rider differently, especially under major show conditions.

On a very bad day, when he is very distracted, I can imagine that my warm up would be less than ideal. If I were on the team, and the world was watching, who knows what gossip might go around about that? So, until we have some facts or a video of what went on, I'm going to give Leslie the benefit of the doubt-

Velvet
Dec. 22, 2006, 11:52 AM
He recommended turning the horse out for six months to a year, and then starting over as if it were a green horse.

I'm just wondering if he explained that it was to get the horse to lose most of the defensive muscles he'd created over the years of mishandling, because that's really all that would happen. I mean, horses have memories like elephants, he's not going to forget. The nice thing is that after about 20-100x of doing it a different way, when you bring them back, they tend to forgive and trust--unless you ever give them a reason for a major flashback.

:)

(I just love horses. They have SUCH big hearts. :yes: )

Sandy M
Dec. 22, 2006, 12:02 PM
I'm just wondering if he explained that it was to get the horse to lose most of the defensive muscles he'd created over the years of mishandling, because that's really all that would happen. I mean, horses have memories like elephants, he's not going to forget. The nice thing is that after about 20-100x of doing it a different way, when you bring them back, they tend to forgive and trust--unless you ever give them a reason for a major flashback.

:)

(I just love horses. They have SUCH big hearts. :yes: )


Yes, he did say something like that, and that if he had the horse, he would turn it out for six months, then bring it back and just hack it for a while, gradually re-introducing it to dressage work.

Horsedances
Dec. 22, 2006, 03:00 PM
I'm just wondering if he explained that it was to get the horse to lose most of the defensive muscles he'd created over the years of mishandling, because that's really all that would happen. I mean, horses have memories like elephants, he's not going to forget. The nice thing is that after about 20-100x of doing it a different way, when you bring them back, they tend to forgive and trust--unless you ever give them a reason for a major flashback.

:)

(I just love horses. They have SUCH big hearts. :yes: )

I just love horses, because they always run away from difficulties. NO they don't have a big heart, they are warm-hearted. And horses don't have a memory like an elephant, mares maybeeeeeee, but stallions NOOOO.

Theo

Sandy M
Dec. 22, 2006, 03:07 PM
I just love horses, because they always run away from difficulties. NO they don't have a big heart, they are warm-hearted. And horses don't have a memory like an elephant, mares maybeeeeeee, but stallions NOOOO.

Theo


Theo, you never met my 16.3 Appaloosa gelding, Thunderblazer (I didn't name him). He passed away in 1997 at age 27. I can't recall him spooking or running away from anything. Perhaps he was cut late, I don't know. He did occasionally act a little studdy around mares and around mules (!) He was nine when I got him. He was either very brave or very trusting, never knew quite which it was. A aggressive dog better not wander into his pasture, if it wanted to live. He kicked a TRUCK that crowded him when I was riding him on the shoulder of the road. He once lay down to roll near a wall and got cast. He patiently lay there until someone tried to help him to roll over. Then he bit them. No logic there. But once we did tip him over so he could get up, he never, ever did that again. Several times after that, I saw him start to go down next to a wall or fence, then stop, posed on his knees, look at the wall, get up and walk over to more open area.

And what about the horse that spooks at a spot where a pheasant flew up six year previously? I've seen that, too. I think their memories are pretty good, but they are often forgiving.

Dressage Art
Dec. 22, 2006, 10:39 PM
(I don't want to mention anynames, b/c I do not want to be accused of slander) I live in CA and saw a couple of riders being VERY rough in the warm up: a dozen “engraved” or “embossed” whip marks on their horses, bloody mouths from double bridles and spurs… yet, I don’t see any of them being disqualified. Everybody looks the other way and follows the saying: “don’t touch the sheet and it will not smell” Others even try to justify the “rough” riding saying that was a necessity or that those riders are “rebels” and out of the main stream … but look, they are winning and showing GP, so they have to be doing something right?

It is sickening how many “rough” riding incidents dressage sport closes their eyes on. The riders above were thrown out of the several CA barns for their “rough” riding, barn mates called an animal control on them, yet – they show dressage just fine and dressage officials don’t do a damn thing about those people. It makes me sick!!! It’s totally a 2 faced approach to dressage when we are suppose to look for the wellbeing of the horse, not for the total submitting for whatever price.

I do not know anything about the incident that happened with L. Morse, but if she was “rough” and did act not appropriately – I hope that USDF will do something about that, she is on OUR team of OUR country and she suppose to make us PROUD! If she wants to be “rough” with her horses, she shouldn’t do it on US Team time and USDF member’s money.

I hope that USDF will get their head out of the sand and issue the official statement that will clarify this situation. Its ridicules to read about things like this on the public BB and yet hear absolutely nothing from the officials.

Moll
Dec. 23, 2006, 03:17 AM
The fun thing is, BB and the Internet does make an impact. Just see the Rollkur bonanza. This thing had been going happily on for years and years, with everybody concerned being politely quiet, but then, wham, a discussion so huge not even the FEI could keep quiet anymore. Sure, MW may accuse "people who want to have more people visiting their website" of making up the whole thing but, still, the powers that be will have to take notice.

We live in exciting times. Never before has it been possible for a large number of people that aren't either top level trainers, top level riders nor equestrian journalists to make a difference to the sport. Now it is :)

Dressage Art
Dec. 23, 2006, 05:22 AM
Moll, you know who was named the Person of the Year from the Time magazine?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/16/time.you.tm/index.html

"You"

kkj
Dec. 23, 2006, 11:23 AM
Thank Dressage Art. I really enjoyed that Time article.

And I do think we can make a difference.

Velvet
Dec. 23, 2006, 03:06 PM
I just had to quote the article:

Sure, it's a mistake to romanticize all this any more than is strictly necessary. Web 2.0 harnesses the stupidity of crowds as well as its wisdom. Some of the comments on YouTube make you weep for the future of humanity just for the spelling alone, never mind the obscenity and the naked hatred.

Oh, man, how may people out here fit that--between the annoyance with posers and the spelling patrol. :lol:

Then there was one of the last lines that made me shudder. ;)

It's a chance for people to look at a computer screen and really, genuinely wonder who's out there looking back at them.

YoungFilly
Dec. 23, 2006, 03:17 PM
I agree with Velvet. I read the article too and though very similar thoughts! :lol: But, it is undoubtably changing the way we get information. Before the internet we were force fed a one way stream from our tv's or radios or newspapers. Now, we can get some very reliable raw information seconds after an incident happens. Remember how many of us came here for info about Barbaro and we had a lot more info because of VirginiaBred?

cinder88
Dec. 23, 2006, 05:08 PM
People wonder WHY the Steward went to the coach rather than hand out a card to the rider?

Does no-one remember a rider who was GOING to be given a yellow card at the Las Vegas World show and had the coach flip out on him in the middle of the warm-up? I believe the quote was something along the lines of...'The World Champion didn't come all this way to get a yellow card from the likes of YOU!"

The card was withdrawn, as I recall.

After that, any Steward would think twice before approaching a rider directly, IMO.

Cinder

nhwr
Dec. 23, 2006, 08:18 PM
A steward should have the stones to give a card if they deem it necessary regardless of what the coach says. Otherwise what is their function? Can you imagine an NBA official backing down because Phil Jackson got in their face? It would never happen.

The only "fact" in either incident is that no card was given, period. The rest is gossip and speculation. You can't infer anything from these situations. The rider's actions simply didn't rise to the level that necessitated official comment. If a steward can be bullied out of giving a warning, they ought to be banned. They are being paid to protect the standards of the sport, not play politics or suck up to BNTs. I am not a big LM fan because of the behavior I have observed first hand. But I object to this type "reporting". No one deserves to be the object of this type of amorphous smear campaign, IMO.


It's a chance for people to look at a computer screen and really, genuinely wonder who's out there looking back at them.I'd add that the internet makes it easy for anyone to lob gossip grenades with little penalty. Instead of considering who is looking back at us, we ought to spend more time considering the reflection we cast. Many times, IMO, it is not very flattering :no:

Velvet
Dec. 23, 2006, 11:16 PM
I think there are quite a few of us out here who wouldn't mind being stewards at that level and handing a rider a card, a kick in the backside, etc. :lol: :lol: Who cares if they're at the international level. If they're breaking the rules, they're breaking the rules. Plain and simple. Shouldn't be any hemming and hawing over that one. EVERYONE at that level is an equal--meaning judges, riders, and stewards.

Sabine
Dec. 24, 2006, 02:09 AM
the job needs to be taken serious and some jurisdiction needs to be assumed- otherwise this whole competition is BS!!!

nhwr
Dec. 24, 2006, 12:08 PM
I think there are quite a few of us out here who wouldn't mind being stewards at that level and handing a rider a card, a kick in the backside, etc. :lol: :lol: Who cares if they're at the international level. If they're breaking the rules, they're breaking the rules. Plain and simple. Shouldn't be any hemming and hawing over that one. EVERYONE at that level is an equal--meaning judges, riders, and stewards. I agree with this. But it is more than the stewards behavior that bothers me. It is the fact that there is so much discussion (gossip really) of things that supposedly happened in these incidents because there is no "official" reaction. The people involved have no real means of addressing or responding to the situation. Next thing you know, all international riders will have been found to train at the grassy knoll in Dallas :eek: There will never be any resolution or closure to it, just a bunch of keyboard jockeys re-hashing the story, adding their own innuendos and linking it to others things that supposedly happened, getting more inflammatory with each telling. It is destructive, IMO.

Rant over

wishing everyone (even international dressage competitors ;)) peace and happiness for the holidays

Mardi
Dec. 30, 2006, 01:14 AM
I was witness to an incident a few years back, in which another Olympic rider couldn't be bothered during her warm-up, to be told that her ride time had arrived and that the judge was waiting for her. Instead of being eliminated for not entering the ring punctually, the judge accepted the excuse of her retinue, that she was "in the zone" and couldn't be interrupted to come ride her test. Never mind that she was holding everyone up, and the ring ran about 20 minutes late the rest of the day, inconveniencing God knows how many other riders; she had to be allowed to complete her warm-up at her leisure, because of her status. :rolleyes: I wasn't the only one POed that day, and I wasn't even riding. :no:

Did anyone file a protest ?

Dressage Art
Dec. 30, 2006, 03:53 PM
Do you know that it cost more than $150.00 to file a protest/complain? Most of the time, people not only not willing to spend their own $150.00 to complain, but they are also short on the time to request the papers that needed to be filed out and mailed in. Official complaint does not take just a big mouth and 5 minutes - it's a commitment with your name written all over it.

Sabine
Dec. 31, 2006, 03:37 AM
interesting statement by LM on eurodressage:


Leslie Morse
USA - American WEG Dressage Team Member with Tip Top
Most important event in your equestrian life in 2006?

I had 2 of the biggest events of my life in the same year:
1. Kingston's injury - feelings of devastation, fear, responsiblity, heartbreak, emptiness, and the true realization that I do this because of the love I have for him and everything he brings to my life.
2. Tip Top representing the USA in World Cup and WEG. -The feelings of honor, pride, adjustment, excitement, nervousness, the need to be protective of him, elation, dissappointment, and achievement.

Most important happening, evolution or trend in the world in 2006?

The Trend that has enlightened me is exemplified by Bill Gates, Bono, and Warren Buffett, and how they have left their private businesses, and have used their own wealth, connections, skills, and energies for unselfish, humanitarian purposes.

Best and worst tv and radio show

I watch tv for pure entertainment, so I enjoy Desperate Housewives, Boston Legal, and Entourage. The Worst: I'm not a fan of reality tv.

Best book, play, concert, movie and CD Book:

Marley and Me

Play:

Cyrano, my nephew Jason Petroff's high school production

Movie:
Akeelah and the Bee, and I love movies from the 40's

CD:
a Motown mix which a dear friend created.

What would you like to see changed in the dressage world in 2007?

Respect and appreciation for our differences

What do you wish for in 2007?

That everyone wears a Peace sign around their neck, and we live for inner peace in our lives, in our homes, and in our hearts.

This Year end question/answer was published on Eurodressage.....

Moll
Dec. 31, 2006, 06:27 AM
Interesting how?

All riders think they are fair to their horses.

Mardi
Dec. 31, 2006, 11:50 AM
Do you know that it cost more than $150.00 to file a protest/complain? Most of the time, people not only not willing to spend their own $150.00 to complain, but they are also short on the time to request the papers that needed to be filed out and mailed in. Official complaint does not take just a big mouth and 5 minutes - it's a commitment with your name written all over it.

Yes, I am aware of the cost and the procedures for filing a protest.

Sabine
Dec. 31, 2006, 12:36 PM
Interesting how?

All riders think they are fair to their horses.

so how far they go in their 'treatment' of horses....is just a matter of taste....judgement....ethics etc.

It makes the point that it is very hard to draw the line and find clear and describable parameters of what is too much and when to execute the YC.

physical.energy
Dec. 31, 2006, 01:56 PM
The Inner Zen Child is screaming to be let out:lol: :lol: :winkgrin:

Touchstone Farm
Dec. 31, 2006, 09:47 PM
I've never understood why it should cost someone $150 to file a protest. As a private citizen, one can call the police to report a crime or a distrubance, and it doesn't cost a dime. Charging seems like a way to squelch a legitimate protest. I suppose it discourages a lot of "made up" charges...but if they are investigated and found to be weak, oh, well, that's what the governing body should do is investigate, but...if people are reluctant to protest because it costs them $150 to call out an action that is unfair or abusive to the horse, cheating or whatever, that's a worse outcome, IMO. (Not commenting on LM. Have no idea what happened and no opinion on this.)

ESG
Jan. 1, 2007, 10:42 PM
Did anyone file a protest ?

Not to my knowledge. Everyone just caved, and bowed to the "superiority" of the Olympic rider. Guess it was okay for "the little people" to be inconvenienced, for her sake........for the sake of one Second level test.........for the rest of the day...............:rolleyes:

ESG
Jan. 1, 2007, 10:46 PM
You say this, yet you're comfortable asserting that no big eq rider could do a first-level dressage test. I don't understand you.

Perhaps you're not meant to?

Sabine
Jan. 1, 2007, 11:43 PM
Not to my knowledge. Everyone just caved, and bowed to the "superiority" of the Olympic rider. Guess it was okay for "the little people" to be inconvenienced, for her sake........for the sake of one Second level test.........for the rest of the day...............:rolleyes:

heard from several sources that TDs that give yellow cards are having problems to cope with...i.e. they don't get backed up in their decision and the show management does not like it...seems like there is a lot more to this story- than what appears on the surface...complete lack of a system of monitoring appropriate show conduct...what we all do at home is noone's business but if the warm up needs to be a 'severe' training experience- me thinks someone hasn't done their training....

P.R.E.
Jan. 2, 2007, 01:45 AM
I just love horses, because they always run away from difficulties. NO they don't have a big heart, they are warm-hearted. And horses don't have a memory like an elephant, mares maybeeeeeee, but stallions NOOOO.

Theo


I have to disagree with you, maybe is that you have not been lucky to have a horse with a big heart. Through my life I have ridden a lot of average horses and some that they were spectacular. Among those special ones I have been lucky to find horses with a big heart. I say this based on how they took care of me or other riders in a special difficult circumstance or how they went that extra mile that was asked from them.

I think that if I would feel that a horse with a big heart can't be found and that they are just a riding instrument, I would not be doing this and looking forward to future riding partners.

As an example, some years ago, we had a jumper horse at our barn. Sweet, nice and brave. A young lady came to try the horse and after warming up and doing some small jumps we set up a combination. The first jump was a 4'6 square oxer and the second a 5'3 vertical with one short stride in the middle. I was standing between both jumps when the lady took the first jump, on landing the horse caught himself, stepping with his back hoof on the front bell boot. In front of me he dived with his nose to the ground, I thought they were going to have a horrible fall.The lady did the correct think and let the reins go to allow the horse to recover balance. Not only he recovered balance, but from being on his knees with his nose in the sand, he lifted himself pushed and cleared the second fence. Over the second fence the rider had no reins and was a simple passenger, after the fence he cantered slowly and stopped. She didn't ask him to take that jump, he did it, because that was him, he would never quit. If that is not a big heart, then I don't know what to say.

Moll
Jan. 2, 2007, 03:10 AM
I wouldn't say big heart, I'd say good reflexes and a good sense of self preservation. If there was only a short stride in between then the horse would have been likely to hurt himself had he stopped. But call it what you like.

P.R.E.
Jan. 2, 2007, 03:32 AM
I wouldn't say big heart, I'd say good reflexes and a good sense of self preservation. If there was only a short stride in between then the horse would have been likely to hurt himself had he stopped. But call it what you like.

By the time his knees touched the ground, he had already stopped, there was no need to try to jump.

I think that we use to see our horses as reflexion of ourselves. Some people do things because they have to do it as a matter of survival, some people we do things with love and passion, because we see our life as an experience. No right or wrong, just different approach to life. I think I have a big heart, so maybe I am biased to see a big heart in my horses.

ESG
Jan. 2, 2007, 06:45 PM
heard from several sources that TDs that give yellow cards are having problems to cope with...i.e. they don't get backed up in their decision and the show management does not like it...seems like there is a lot more to this story- than what appears on the surface...complete lack of a system of monitoring appropriate show conduct...what we all do at home is noone's business but if the warm up needs to be a 'severe' training experience- me thinks someone hasn't done their training....

I'm not sure what you mean by "a lot more to this story". Care to clarify?

Sabine
Jan. 2, 2007, 11:33 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "a lot more to this story". Care to clarify?

well- would you like to file a Yellow card at Aachen- when you know that noone is in favor of it and it draws negative publicity and and and.....

that's why the TD went from Pontius to Pilatus to stop the action....and waited patiently until he got it done...mind you this was AFTER her competition and after she had gotten the 64%....it was really only a schooling ride....must make you wonder why the intensity...?

ESG
Jan. 3, 2007, 07:20 AM
I should think that when one is an FEI TD, you've encountered more than your share of prima donnas. Since it's one's job to do oversee and enforce the rules, the answer would be a resounding "yes!" - I'd give a rider a yellow (or whatever other color card would be approprate if they behaved inappropriately. You see, that's what you agree to do when you undertake that position. If you don't have the stones to do the job, find another. :winkgrin:

And what do you mean by "going from Pontius to Pilatus"? :confused:

Horsedances
Jan. 3, 2007, 09:50 AM
When you consider that judges, stewards, riders, sponsors etc... spend a hughe amount of time together, in hotels, bars, restaurant almost every week, I think you have a part of the reason why stewards rather turn their heads than give a warning. Yes offcourse warnings are given, but mostly in the backrooms of the hotels and between four eyes.

Next to this it is my believe that most of these things are taken out of proportions and these stories start living their own lifes. And when it reaches the Internet the whole story is blown up by "hear say" postings.

Theo

pelleejelleebellee
Jan. 3, 2007, 08:07 PM
as a result of this debacle, USEF has new rules regarding qualifing so this cannot happen again.

Maybe someone wanted to throw leslie a "bone" since Kingston went lame at Klaus' when turned out and has supposedly been there ever since.....you can bet the farm it will NEVER happen again.

And I suspect Leslie won't either.

And I have seen her ride and teach in clinics....the word on the street is "don't let her on your horse!!!"

canyonoak
Jan. 3, 2007, 08:30 PM
Kingston is with Leslie in the USA and has been for quite some time.

I will not bother asnwering the other inconsistencies and innuendo.