High Hay Costs Push Up Cases of Horse Abandonment

[MSP]

Just got this from thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=8268)

I could see this happening if there was no hay but just high prices is shocking to me.

High prices and scarce supply for hay this season are leading to abandoned horses, according to animal-welfare groups.

"This is the first year where people are literally just opening the gate and kicking them (the horses) out," said Chuck Fisher, ranch manager at Equine Outreach in Bend, Ore., which rescues and rehabilitates horses and puts them up for adoption.

Just last week, he said, he'd gotten a call about taking in three tame horses found starving in Ochoco National Forest.

A year ago, he bought hay for $125 per ton. This year, he is paying $200, Fisher told The Bulletin newspaper in Bend.

"Hay, if you can find it, is very high right now," said Rodger Huffman, program manager of livestock identification at the Oregon Department of Agriculture. "That situation is statewide."

Tony Aceti, owner of Hay Depot in Bend, said he is selling his premium hay for $200 per ton, and oats-and-alfalfa hay for $140.

"There's people that just can't afford it," he said. "It's sad."

Huffman said that cattle are being auctioned off in record numbers this year as a result of hay costs. Hay shortages last winter prompted many ranchers to hoard as much as they could buy and store this summer, which resulted in the large price jump, he said.

Fisher said that between the high cost of feed, fuel and fertilizer, horse owners feel they are just "out of options."

Aceti said that until recently, it was easy to find local farmers who grew hay and sold it cheaply from their property. But then developers bought up the farmland and built subdivisions, reducing the local hay supply considerably.

He said he can usually count on having sold 20 percent of his inventory by the start of December. But this year, he said, 80 percent of what he bought over the summer is already gone.

Lynn Ouchida, community outreach director for the Humane Society of Central Oregon, said where the farms and ranches once were, ranchettes have sprung up to take their place, many of them bought by people who always dreamed of owning a horse.

Some of them "just don't know what they're getting in to," Ouchida said. "You can buy an inexpensive horse around here, but it's the maintenance that really costs."

Fisher said that hay and supplements can run a horse owner at least $60 per month, depending on how large and how active the animal is.

Abandonment of a horse is a misdemeanor, with a maximum fine of $2,500, according to the Deschutes County sheriff's office.

[BasqueMom]

Hi, read that article also. Would be more than happy to find hay for $200
a ton here in Texas--happy dancing all over the place. Love their estimate
of $60 a month for feed and supplements. Mine get that, if not more, in
supplements.

With hay at $10 to $13 a bale, my third stall remains empty since Fudgeman
crossed the bridge last year. The other two do waste enough hay to feed
a third, though. No amount of discussion on what hay is costing seems to
be sinking in. These two have not heard of "waste not, want not."

[MSP]

I havn’t bought my hay yet! I am starting to get worried but I was planning on getting some this weekend. I just need enough to get me by until the grass starts growing then the pasture takes care of it.

I am not worried so much about the cost as I am about not getting any!

[cowgirljenn]

We're not seeing more abandoned horses, BUT we are seeing more neglect cases and have a lot more people wanting to turn horses over to us. Unfortunately we're so full that the only horses we're taking in now are from neglect cases. :(

And hay is at a premium here - I'm having to buy it from the feedstore a few bales at a time because I couldn't find anyone to sell me 100-200 this fall. *sigh*

[Nootka]

I cant believe the price of hay. In virginia it was 5 a bale now down here in fla it is 12 for the timothy that I am buying. It is at the point where I buy it week to week

[JumpingPaints]

As someone aptly pointed out about this article on the Breeders Forum, the increases they cited, amount to $28 extra per month you are feeding hay for the average horse. Depending on the time of year you are buying hay, and that year's yield, hay prices can fluctuate by that much in many areas, including mine. These fluctuations have not been linked before to horse abandonment, and IMO, if there are increases in horse abandonment (which would have more merit with statistical support), it is likely based on the overall economy. People selling lower/middle end horses (or trying to give them away) are having a harder time, thanks to a large supply, decreased consumer confidence and depressed markets like real estate. Higher hay costs are just one factor.

I value the Horse for its articles on equine medical developments, but I take their unwanted horses fear-mongering with a grain of salt.

[nightsong]

Much of the country has had drought weather for quite a while now. This not only causes pastures to dry up so that horses havae to be fed hay, but decrease the hay crops drastically. A DOUBLE whammy. Perhaps rescues will be seeing more destitute cases; perhaps people will just leave them in fields (like they do around here :( ) and let them starve.

[sidepasser]

I read that too, but down here in GA. hay is scarce. Just today I had two people ask me if I would sell ANY of my hay (I buy on contract so have enough for a year available) as they can't find hay suitable for horses and what they can find is cow hay or is from last years cut.

I keep around 400 bales here all the time for three horses as a "just in case" factor, but even so, if there is no hay to cut, well there is none to sell. Hay, if one can find it, has gone up significantly (more than triple the cost of last year) so with one horse that may not be much, but feeding a herd can be astronomical. One of my neighbors raises racehorses and he has about 50 head at any given time and he feeds 19 square bales a day and two round bales. Needless to say, their hay bill has gone way up this year.

Perhaps beet pulp would be an alternative to hay in some cases? Or the bagged alfalfa or cubes/pellets or some people feed the "all in one with fiber" feed. But I bet those go up as well!

[sidepasser]

I read that too, but down here in GA. hay is scarce. Just today I had two people ask me if I would sell ANY of my hay (I buy on contract so have enough for a year available) as they can't find hay suitable for horses and what they can find is cow hay or is from last years cut.

I keep around 400 bales here all the time for three horses as a "just in case" factor, but even so, if there is no hay to cut, well there is none to sell. Hay, if one can find it, has gone up significantly (more than triple the cost of last year) so with one horse that may not be much, but feeding a herd can be astronomical. One of my neighbors raises racehorses and he has about 50 head at any given time and he feeds 19 square bales a day and two round bales. Needless to say, their hay bill has gone way up this year.

Perhaps beet pulp would be an alternative to hay in some cases? Or the bagged alfalfa or cubes/pellets or some people feed the "all in one with fiber" feed. But I bet those go up as well!

[Pocket Pony]

This topic has always been a concern of mine. If developers buy up farmland and, well, develop...then what happens to the availability of the crops that were produced? I mean, how many people are getting *into* hay farming? It seems like the availability will just continue to decrease. I tend to be a "worst case scenario" thinker and this is something that I worry about very frequently. Unfortunately, I can only store 2 tons in my barn; I have no other area to store hay. IIRC, it is about $250/ton because I have to buy it at the feed store. I wish I had a huge hay storage building, then I would buy a year's worth and hoard it...mine, all mine...muahaaahaaaahhaaaa!

[EqTrainer]

I order my hay from the same man every year. This year and last he has told me - at the beginning of the hay feeding season for us, which is now - that he has people BEGGING HIM for my hay. Offering to pay more.

Why anyone would wait 'til the last minute to buy hay is beyond me. Find a good farmer, contract with him and sleep easy. Dashing around for hay would make me so worried and feel so crazy I'd lose my mind!

[Luckydonkey]

not everyone can store enough to last the year- I can store 2 tons at a time in my barn- and I go through that about every month and a half- so have to buy hay all year long- there is no "contracting with farmers in our area" if they grow it , it is to use themselves, or to sell off out of the field- so they do not have to store it all year- also this year and last year were bad hay years in the willamette valley- last year it was too dry, this year it was too wet- I am paying $150 a ton for plain jane grass hay- if they can get it in- and if not I have to pay higher for eastern oregon grown orchard grass...

[TripleRipple]

I am outside of Bend. Last year I paid an avg. of $130/ton(lowest $120/highest 135) for hay - that is a summertime price. This year my avg. price was $140 (summer price - lowest $130/highest $150). So pretty much, I am paying $10/more a ton - not unreasonable, given the overall low price. I bought much of my premium stuff at a hay dealer, no less (not a feed store). Good stuff.

Winter prices here at higher, like just about every other venue on the planet, and of course the feed stores charge a lot more per ton. I just grabbed our ag paper, The Capital Press. I am seeing many ads for hay in the $120 to $140 a ton range available locally (orchard, orchard/alfalfa, straight alfalfa), in the usual places to buy hay around here. So I am not certain why he is choosing to pay $200/ton by stocking up at the equivalent of a 7/11 (feed store) for his hay supplies. Even now, from what I see in the paper, that isn't necessary.

As to the abandoned horses... Just an insight - out here, that happens. It is awful. There was one last year left in National Forest lands outside Redmond, Oregon (that's a town next to Bend), tied to a tree, found by hunters. Another one left tied to a telephone pole nearer to town. While horrifying to me, I am not seeing an increase in usual annual numbers of horses abandoned by local jack-asses (who would also think NOTHING of doing the same to their dogs, or kids), and certainly not because of hay prices. Oh, yeah, like everywhere, we have some real nasty people.

What I do know re high local prices is that this hay is being shipped over to the Portland, Oregon area, and is going for much much much more. I could make a lot of money taking the $140 stuff over that way and selling it for a bunch.

In this case, this article just seems to say poor choices on the part of this particular group. There has never been a year yet where winter feed wasn't more than summer feed.

P.S. One of the hay producers I bought my $140 to $150/ton hay from does contract hay - I could have "custom" ordered what I wanted for later pickup. I chose to pick it up right then and take it home, because it was good stuff during a time of extreme rain/hail crop damage here. That is why I am wondering how come I manage my 6 horse and cow ranch better than this guy who is doing it professionally as a rescue. If I can do it, then this rescue should be better equipped to do it. Or not take on so much.

[county]

Hay here is very plentiful and cheap more and more farmers are raising more hay and less corn. I can buy nice round bales of Brome/Orchard grass for $30 to $40 a ton at harvest time. We raise pretty much all our own hay but do buy some squares we just bought 500 squares bales of Alfalfa for $1.75 a bale average is 50 lbs.

[MySparrow]

I'm with all of you on the hay issue. At the beginning of this year's hay season I contracted for the winter's hay, and paid a deposit. When I called him several weeks ago he regretted to tell me that he had had a higher bid and had sold my hay. He saved me what my deposit paid for. Fortunately I have a friend who has round bales under cover, and he sold me ten to last till April. I paid for all of them!!!!!! And I'm feeding by pulling the hay out of the round bales rather than just letting the horses munch 'em down. I wish I knew a better way to get the hay out of the round bales. This is wearing me down and tearing up my hands. :cry:

Drought and development are a double whammy. The third may well be a demand for biomass for methane production. If our remaining hay fields are converted to switch grass or field corn to feed the cracking plants, where will we get our hay?

County, where are you that you can get hay so cheaply?

[county]

Central Mn. we have lots and lots of hay and pasture land here. Both are very cheap I can rent pasture land for $8 a head a month and don't have to maintain fences. Or many retired farmers rent their pastures out for just fixing and keeping fences up.

[Cherry]

Unfortunately you're always going to have that segment of people who are just not that committed to their horses! Every time I hear someone say that they sold their horse and it got a great new home I have to wonder about that statment!!!!

The price of hay is just one more excuse as to why the owner can't do the right thing by their horse. If you care you will take the time to find an alternative method of feeding that will enable you to Winter over the horse!

[MSP]

As one poster stated not every one has a place to store hay or needs to.

I would much rather buy two bales at a time then have to store it so I rarely buy large amounts of hay. Last year the Coop ran out of hay but luckily the grass started to grow at about the same time. I have one horse that eats hay and only in the winter, if I stock pile the hay it gets brown and dusty. Even now all she is getting is dead pasture and 4 cups of feed a day and she over weight.

Back when I was a kid in NH my father would knock on doors of people, usually elderly, with fields that had been abandoned and ask if he could harvest the hay. He would hire a local farmer to cut the hay and we would go to the field and turn and rake the hay and then bring it home. We used a garden tractor and pulled an antique horse drawn hay rake and sometimes just a wooden hand hay rake! It was hard work, especially pitching the loose hay into the hay loft, but the hay was cheap and my father loved that homestead kind of living. That was how we got through hay shortages!

I am not so sure I believe the abandon horses are due to hay cost either!

[onthebit]

Donning flamesuit:

We as horsepeople are parts of the land problem (and thus driving up hay cossts) from certain viewpoints. Most of us have small farmettes or board our horses at boarding facilities, with a common factor in many of these scenarios being too many horses for the land to support. So we've taken up a few acres with our farmette or say 40 acres for the boarding facility that has 60 horses - so every bit of that acreage is out of production. Multiply that by the total number of these set-ups across the country and that is an enormous amount of acreage out of production. So it isn't just developers driving up land prices. We do not practice sustainable horse keeping practices is the bottom line. Part of sustainable means not overstocking land with whatever species you have on it.

Bring the torches out and flame away!

[War Admiral]

I absolutely do NOT believe it's just the cost of hay. There are many parts of the USA (like mine) where the economy is REALLY bad right now. IMO that is far more likely to account for abandonment than just a $20 increase in hay costs.

[Cherry]

No flames here, onthebit! :no: I know you speak the truth! :yes:

I have tried to get a local farmer, whom I know and really like, to grow more hay. He's grows decent hay and does a good job but when I approached him about growing more (different kind of) hay he was resistant. He has said that he has trouble getting good help to bring in the hay he grows now--no one seems to wants to work that hard!!!! :eek: No one seems to want to work very hard in this country anymore.... (Also donning a flamesuit! :lol: ) Maybe we're going to have to go out and help these guys harvest our hay if we want any!!!! :yes:

But WA--we're being told over and over again that our economy is strong! I say it just depends on what end of the economy you are on!!! If you're at the top, sure you think it's strong.... :uhoh:

[Calvincrowe]

Hay prices...sigh...we get our hay from Central Oregon, as western WA/OR hay is a quality crapshoot. I paid $180/ton for Eastern grass in June, now my hay dealer is charging $215/ton and expects to sell whatever he can scrounged out of E/OR for $300/ton by March!! I know they lost their first and some of the 4th cuttings of alfalfa. Coarse stem alfalfa is going for $190/ton right now at my dealer.

My neighbors have 100 acres, and could easily farm it for hay...but they don't. They do cut "hay" off it to feed their horses, but it is just native grasses, weeds, tansy and blackberries cut in late July--mind you, no fertilizer or irrigation--and baled. Lovely... A cow would starve on this (and we watched their herd do just that the first winter we lived next door..so sad!) We've reported them to AC, believe me. (I have pics of the starving horses on my webshots).

People used to farm hay in my county, but now, it is wall-to-wall subdivisions. As onthebit said, development and "farmettes" are spelling the end of farming. I hear ya. No large acreage goes un-divided around here!

Abandonment or flat out neglect/abuse will rise this year, I predict, due to all the causes stated so far. Hay is so expensive, and hey, the "grass" is green in Western WA year round, so they must be able to live off it, right??

[sidepasser]

Hay here is very plentiful and cheap more and more farmers are raising more hay and less corn. I can buy nice round bales of Brome/Orchard grass for $30 to $40 a ton at harvest time. We raise pretty much all our own hay but do buy some squares we just bought 500 squares bales of Alfalfa for $1.75 a bale average is 50 lbs.

County - I want to live where you live..down here alfalfa is between 10 and 15 a bale for 85 lb bales. Coastal is running from 4.00 for semi good to 8.00 for ok to 10 to real good.

We won't discuss cow hay...but even that has gone up significantly because horse owners are having to buy that to feed their horses.

I built a hay shed because I was tired of trying to haul and find hay..I can store about 400 to 450 bales at one time, my wonderful hay man stores the remainder for me and I pick it up in 150 bale lots. I try to remove all hay from his barn by February and so it works out for both of us. He knows he will have a set price for his hay and it will sell quickly and I know I have hay year round. It cost me 3,000 last year to build that hay shed and it has been the best money I could have spent - one thing though - wish I had made it bigger - lol..did all the labor myself with the help of the SO and two teenage boys..and paid the boys about 300.00 each for their help and the rest was for materials. It looks great - this summer I am pouring a concrete floor and adding rolling doors to it and then it should be completed.

I HATE hunting hay because I worry so much about years where there isn't any like this one...this has given me great piece of mind!

[appaloosalady]

I absolutely do NOT believe it's just the cost of hay. There are many parts of the USA (like mine) where the economy is REALLY bad right now. IMO that is far more likely to account for abandonment than just a $20 increase in hay costs.

I agree 100% :no: . The economy in MI is so bad, people are giving away horses left and right. Hay prices have remained reasonable and steady for the past few years, but that doesn't help people who can't find decent jobs. I have hauled abandoned horses for local animal control in the past and have the feeling I'll be doing it again.

[WildBlue]

but when I approached him about growing more (different kind of) hay he was resistant. He has said that he has trouble getting good help to bring in the hay he grows now--no one seems to wants to work that hard!!!! :eek: No one seems to want to work very hard in this country anymore.... (Also donning a flamesuit! :lol: ) Maybe we're going to have to go out and help these guys harvest our hay if we want any!!!! :yes:

That's a problem around here, too (midwest). I see two trends: 1. People producing large quantities of squares using lots of specialized machinery (modified bobcats loading tractor trailers in the field), for an increased cost of 25-30% per bale. And, 2. just round baling everything.

In both cases, it's driven by a shortage of young, strong men who'll do hard, itchy work for pennies a bale. The first group of haymakers is running things as a business on thousands of acres, the second group is mainly small-time farmers who have been making hay for decades and who're converting to 'cattle rounds' (and round bale prices) rather than going out of the hay business altogether.

I'm stuffing my fingers in my ears and singing "la la la" instead of thinking about the part where most of these guys are in their 60's and 70's and will have to stop even making hay via machinery soon.

[MSP]

How can you blame it on farmettes? We don’t set the price of land! If I could have afforded a 40 acre lot and grow my own hay I would have!

Take a look at the city near you! How many empty building, un-used lots? Then look at how much development you have in the suburbs. Look at how far out the developments are pushing into farm country.

What perhaps is happening is the cost of horse ownership is on the rise and maybe some day the average person will be priced out.

[onthebit]

MSP, you are preaching to the choir here. My farm was surrounded by other farms until this year. Now it will have 3 new subdivisions and a golf course, and an acre of land on this road is going to cost you $50,000 or more. You can't buy land at those prices for any type of agricultural enterprise unless you want Southern CA board prices or pay a heck of a lot more for hay. But it doesn't change the fact that we are contributing to taking land out of production just as others are.

No where did I suggest anyone not own a horse on whatever acreage they can afford did I? Just pointing out a fact that we do contribute to the problems in certain ways. I wish there was an ideal solution, and I'm sure we would all participate in it.

[IndysMom]

It must depend on the part of the country you are in. I'm here in upstate NY and I couldn't GIVE away 22 acres of standing hay. We tried for 5 years in a row. Now it hasn't been hayed in so long that it would have to be plowed and reseeded. Even the beef cows wouldn't eat this stuff it's so full of weeds now. Too bad because they were beautiful hay fields when we bought the place-tim/alfalfa/treefoil mix.

[MSP]

MSP, you are preaching to the choir here. My farm was surrounded by other farms until this year. Now it will have 3 new subdivisions and a golf course, and an acre of land on this road is going to cost you $50,000 or more. You can't buy land at those prices for any type of agricultural enterprise unless you want Southern CA board prices or pay a heck of a lot more for hay. But it doesn't change the fact that we are contributing to taking land out of production just as others are.

No where did I suggest anyone not own a horse on whatever acreage they can afford did I? Just pointing out a fact that we do contribute to the problems in certain ways. I wish there was an ideal solution, and I'm sure we would all participate in it.

Point taken but I don’t think we can be to blame if we are not in control of the problem. It is heart breaking to watch! There is 42.5 acres behind me and we have contacted the owner basically begging to buy land that adjoins our property. We just know he will sell to developers!

[county]

Its like that here also IndysMom lots of land isn't hayed or planted to crops there just way more then people need. Pasture is even more so that way I could easily find 1500 acres of pasture just in this township that sits empty.

[county]

People are in control of the situation of development. Don't buy, developers will not develope what does not sell.

[MSP]

The people doing the buying don’t give a rat about horse owners or land use. They just want their house in the country (yah right) jammed into a development with 90 other houses with their tiny fenced in back yard on a cul-de-sac!

And then there are those that can’t afford to pay for over price acreage and have to live with what they can afford.

[MSP]

It must depend on the part of the country you are in. I'm here in upstate NY and I couldn't GIVE away 22 acres of standing hay. We tried for 5 years in a row. Now it hasn't been hayed in so long that it would have to be plowed and reseeded. Even the beef cows wouldn't eat this stuff it's so full of weeds now. Too bad because they were beautiful hay fields when we bought the place-tim/alfalfa/treefoil mix.

When I lived in NH I fenced in my neighbors field and pastured my horses there. That may be an option for you.

We used to have problems some times getting people to cut the hay. I think it is the cost of repairing equipment, driving in an unknown field and such.

[BelladonnaLily]

But WA--we're being told over and over again that our economy is strong! I say it just depends on what end of the economy you are on!!! If you're at the top, sure you think it's strong.... :uhoh:

That is the most absurd statement I've ever read. :rolleyes:

[Tamara in TN]

County - I want to live where you live..down here alfalfa is between 10 and 15 a bale for 85 lb bales. Coastal is running from 4.00 for semi good to 8.00 for ok to 10 to real good.

We won't discuss cow hay...but even that has gone up significantly because horse owners are having to buy that to feed their horses.



no...this summer it cost the same amount of diesel fuel to run a tractor over a field of "cow" hay as it did "horse" hay or "dairy" hay or "alpaca" hay....and with farm diesel jumping almost 40cents over nite and still not have come down....well the cost for even the yuckiest stuff must go up...

it has nothing to do with horse people buying it and being charged more because they were "horse" people...it is about a $30 a ton increase in fuel per ton of production from seed to harvest....lots of farmers decided not to fertilize this year as well....saving both fertilizer and farm tractor costs....

the results are neighboring/local fields I have not seen in a decade even bushhogged have been cut for hay....and then on the regrowth the fields left farrow are now are now being stockpiled with feeder cattle since the bottom dropped out last month.....cut the crap off and bale it and let feeders eat the good stuff underneath....

Tamara in TN

[Va_Horse_Extension]

Donning flamesuit: Bring the torches out and flame away!

It's unfortunate that you feel you have to put on the flamesuit to make a statement like this. It may not be popular, but there is truth to it and you've stated it very politely.

I'm getting to the point where I'm no longer surprised when I get a call from someone wanting help with their pasture/farm management and I find they have 2-3x the number of horses as the property can handle, let alone handle well. There are more people getting into horse ownership without knowing what they're getting into ahead of time. One of the reasons we're trying to foster more education and training programs.

We love horses, but we have to love them responsibly. Taking on more than you (or your property) can handle usually doesn't do good in the long run.

[Tamara in TN]

It must depend on the part of the country you are in. I'm here in upstate NY and I couldn't GIVE away 22 acres of standing hay. We tried for 5 years in a row. Now it hasn't been hayed in so long that it would have to be plowed and reseeded. Even the beef cows wouldn't eat this stuff it's so full of weeds now. Too bad because they were beautiful hay fields when we bought the place-tim/alfalfa/treefoil mix.


I wonder if I may use your example to illustrate a point ???

Tamara in TN

[SaddleFitterVA]

if I stock pile the hay it gets brown and dusty.

I'm not sure I understand this concept. Hay is made in the summer, so somebody is stock piling the hay.

The last of my 2005 hay was still in the barn when my 2006 delivery came in, and it was still lovely. Green and fresh.

I built so that I could have storage. I love having my hay needs satisfied without stressing about it.

Hay is more expensive this year, but fuel prices drove that up. As for county and his frozen land of cheap hay, he can have it:lol: . I visited MN over New Year's in 2005 and that is one COLD place.

[millwrightmomma]

I feel rather lucky, my round bales are 1100 lbs or so, and they are 18 to 21/ bale
even with inexpensive hay, horses are still underfed and abandoned.
It is the mindset of the people.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=SaddleFitterVA;2033596]I'm not sure I understand this concept. Hay is made in the summer, so somebody is stock piling the hay.

The last of my 2005 hay was still in the barn when my 2006 delivery came in, and it was still lovely. Green and fresh.

[QUOTE]

hay can be stored in a dark dry non humid place safely for years....it will take five years for it to lose even one protein point...:winkgrin: however given the surrounding conditions it can bleach and yellow in the sun and pick up dusts and debris from wind and barn sweepings or leaf blowers and a good bit of the vitamin A declines in the first year as well ....it's all about the storage protocols....

Tamara in TN

[lawndart]

Months ago I posted on here that hay prices would be rising because of the increase in the price of diesel fuel, and fertilizer. I got a 'yeah so what' response :confused: Horse people have to start thinking farther ahead. Between development, and the aging of the farm population, its not going to get any better. If farmers know there is a demand for good quality hay ahead of time they will meet that need, if at all possible. It takes a couple of years to get a really good field of Timothy producing unless weather conditions are optimal. Talk to your local farmers, farm bureau members, feed store, etc. You have to get your need for hay out there for them to act upon.

DH and I make our own hay for my horses and my boarders, plus a few cows to eat the bales not good enough. Our kids have always helped, we put away between 3000 to 5000 bales in 6 week time window. Now, oldest son, who was the biggest help, is in the Navy. Daughter is in college, hopefully she will be home enough to help this summer. Youngest son is going to have to work harder than ever. How we are going to do this once they are all gone, well, we talk about it all the time. No one wants to do this type of work anymore. And the liability of having untrained people around moving farm machinery... :eek: I won't do round bales, I'm not a fan of them for many reasons.

If anyone has ever made hay, they would not complain about the rising cost of it. We have been lucky for many, many years to have such affordable hay, considering the time, labor, and hope put into a ton of hay.

You HOPE that your new seedings will not get frozen out or wither away in drought conditions

You HOPE that fertilizer will not go up in costs, again. Same for seed cost. Same for cost of twine.

You HOPE that your baler that is over 30 years old will make it another year. Ditto for tractor/rake/tedder/hay elevator.

You HOPE that no one essential to making the hay (in my case DH) gets ill or hurt in haying season.

You HOPE that no one schedules an important event, like weddings, graduations, family reunions in the middle of haying season, cause its not likely you will get to go. I also HOPE my daughter doesn't have a rodeo that weekend. IF she does, we stay home to make hay. Screws up her points, but the horses gotta eat.

You HOPE AND PRAY that the weather will co-operate. Not only do you have to time the cutting of hay correctly (before it goes into heads) you have to depend on an accurate weather forecast. Where I live, it takes three days from cutting to harvesting, unless we have exceptional drying weather. We have had 20 acres of beautiful hay laying, HOURS away from harvesting, and been 'blessed' with an unpredicted rainfall. Its enough to make you weep. :sadsmile:

Then, when you are able to bale it, you work a 14 to 18 hour day, because you still have a real job (hay won't support you and your family), and horses of your own to feed. Sometimes I'm so tired after a day running from sun to well after sunset, I fall asleep the second I sit down. DH has his own business that has nothing to do with farming, so he is even more stressed. Despite being filthy with hay dirt/grease from the baler/elevator/pto, taking a shower almost seems like too much work.

I just can't have a lot of sympathy for people bitching about paying $5 a bale for excellent quality hay. Heck, around here people don't want to pay $2 a bale for great hay. So what is my incentive to make any to sell to anyone else? Just so I can have people call to come for hay, then not show up? Want to come on a Sunday because its a good time for them, but not caring that its not a good time for us? So I can have them complain that they have to load their own truck? Or DEMAND two bales in exchange for the one bale they ended up with that was NQR? Screw that, we no longer sell to the public. And I know plenty of others that feel the same way. Farmers are all eventually going to sell thru auctions/feed stores/or sell entire crop in one go. Then where will the horse owner go? Why to the feed store to pay $10 a bale for medium quality hay. And it will be no ones fault but their own.

Whew! I feel better now! ;)

I know someone will have to either tell me I'm totally wrong, or flame me for this post. If you do, you had better have made a lot of hay in the past, or at least have a clue of the effort/time/ and expense involved. :winkgrin:

[SaddleFitterVA]

Lawndart,

I have helped make hay, for many summers.

Your post rings true. It sounds like all the other topics though.

FOR ALL READING:

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

Obviously, most people participating in this thread have their own farm, or need to plan for their own horse's feeding. If we go read the boarding threads, we can see how Ms. Snarky COTH horse owner is unhappy with how expensive it is to board, because she knows it only costs $xx to buy the hay and grain, and her Dobbin only eats a handful.

Or, how expensive it is to hire someone to haul.

Or how expensive the vet is.

Or how expensive the farrier is.

Or how expensive the trainer fees are.

Or how expensive the entry fees are.

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

I have a couple of boarders. I like the company. But, I do know that they have no delusions of the "grand life" of having a farm.

I've heard all the arguments on why people who have invested in a farm should be subsidizing those who choose to not invest in a farm (they are paying off a mortgage, they live there anyway, blah blah), but, those are the people who are welcome to head out and buy their own 10 acre farmette, and be responsible 365 days a year.

Either you decide to trim your budget in other places or keep horses less extravagantly. Don't show, own your own rig (a pricey proposition), go to farrier school, buy enough land to make your own hay (I could buy hay for the next 20 years for what it would cost me to buy the equipment to make hay), learn all those things and be self-sufficient and don't pay other people. Go live in MN.

Mel

[3fatponies]

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

Obviously, most people participating in this thread have their own farm, or need to plan for their own horse's feeding. If we go read the boarding threads, we can see how Ms. Snarky COTH horse owner is unhappy with how expensive it is to board, because she knows it only costs $xx to buy the hay and grain, and her Dobbin only eats a handful.

Or, how expensive it is to hire someone to haul.

Or how expensive the vet is.

Or how expensive the farrier is.

Or how expensive the trainer fees are.

Or how expensive the entry fees are.

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.


Great post!! :D I think two of the biggest misconceptions out there are this: 1. Boarding is a great way to make easy money; 2. Anyone with the space should be thrilled to offer boarding when approached.

Aaaah, yeah, riiiiight.... :winkgrin:

[buckeyerev]

As one who grew up on a farm in NE Ohio, I know how much work is involved in making hay!!! My dad is in his 70's now and still is making square bale hay for horse customer's. Here is how it works. The day he plans to bale, he calls his customers (he has loyal following) and informs them to ready waiting with thier trucks in the field around 5-6 p.m. They either load directly into thier truck beds or hook onto the loaded wagons and haul it to thier own barn. After they unload, they bring back the wagon. These nice people help us as they are waiting for thier load. It's a cash on the spot deal. The hay is PAID for prior to leaving the field or it doesn't leave. We cut down the field with a haybine, then use a tedder, then rake and finally bale. Don't forget the tractor and wagons. So, you need at least 6 pieces of equipment just to get started. Everything needs maintained and let's not forget all the stuff that breaks in the field while you're watching dark rain clouds fast approach!!!! AGGHHHH!!!!!

[SKlove]

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

Obviously, most people participating in this thread have their own farm, or need to plan for their own horse's feeding. If we go read the boarding threads, we can see how Ms. Snarky COTH horse owner is unhappy with how expensive it is to board, because she knows it only costs $xx to buy the hay and grain, and her Dobbin only eats a handful.

Or, how expensive it is to hire someone to haul.

Or how expensive the vet is.

Or how expensive the farrier is.

Or how expensive the trainer fees are.

Or how expensive the entry fees are.

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.


Mel



Thank you.. in terms compeleltly unrealated to this thread.
I'm so sick of people complaining how expensive everything is.
Hello, you are paying for another living this to live, and thrive in certain coniditons.
It's expensive.
You knew that getting into the sport.
Live with it.
My favorite is when people complain about lesson prices.
Without the realization that trainers have to pay for these horses to live and in many cases the horses cost more for them to live then the trainer to live themselves.
AND my other favorite is..
If you can't afford lessons, then why, why, prey tell are you thinking about buying another horse?!

[MSP]

I'm not sure I understand this concept. Hay is made in the summer, so somebody is stock piling the hay.

The last of my 2005 hay was still in the barn when my 2006 delivery came in, and it was still lovely. Green and fresh.

I built so that I could have storage. I love having my hay needs satisfied without stressing about it.

Hay is more expensive this year, but fuel prices drove that up. As for county and his frozen land of cheap hay, he can have it:lol: . I visited MN over New Year's in 2005 and that is one COLD place.

Last year when the hay ran out I had to feed one year old bale and it had ½ inch dust on it and I had to soak it in water to feed it.

I have horses and feed in the same barn. The horses run in and out day and night kicking up dust. Dust settles on everything. If I stock up and buy too much it will be junk by the next year and it will be taking up space in my barn.

I have one horse that needs hay for maybe three months sometimes just two months. So all I really need is say 12 bales of hay for the year. I would just prefer to buy two bales of hay every two weeks when I buy feed.

[SaddleFitterVA]

I'd say that at the rate of 12 bales per year for consumption, you don't need to worry about buying in bulk.:lol:
I buy several hundred bales a year, and if I had less grass, I'd need over a thousand. A couple of dollars difference in price per bale is one thing if it is 12 bales a year ($24) versus 1000 ($2000).

You could drape a tarp over the hay to keep the dust off. Put blocks of wood to keep it elevated so it doesn't trap moisture, and if you feed that little, you might want to get one of those camping hay bags for the couple of bales you do have.

[TripleRipple]

I feel rather lucky, my round bales are 1100 lbs or so, and they are 18 to 21/ bale
even with inexpensive hay, horses are still underfed and abandoned.
It is the mindset of the people.

It is absolutely the mindset. Again, locally where that article originated, you can buy round bales for horses too. Even despite the bad weather we had during our haying season - true, that the usual haying idiots lost their crops. And some of the good guys had way less than the premium product they usually do - but many of those got one more cutting in the fall because the weather cut them a good break then (which leveled the prices back out again). I don't use round bales, but all my neighbors do - their horses are thriving on it. No, it is not going for $170 or the $200/ton that man in the article claimed it was.

I am sure there will be a few people who sell or give away their horses due to increases in costs. People do that whenever the economy goes down - not just related to horse costs. However, to truly abandon a horse instead, like they do out here in the national forests is something done by sickos, without regard to expenses. Usually done to an old or injured horse that is now "useless". They tie them up to the trees out there, so the horse a) won't try to follow them home, and b) so that the cougars can finish off the job easily. Imagine what they do to ensure that. I can't talk about what I've read, it makes me so sick. That is NOT because of hay costs. It isn't something a farmer or rancher does either - the ones I know that have horses that can't be used put them down (either with a gun shot or a vet shot - now, whether you agree or not, it is never done inhumanely, like the sickos do in these "abandonment" cases).

But that article wanted to highlight that rescue's "plight" by misleadingly picking up on rising hay costs. That kind of ticks me off, because right now many people are legitmately suffering because of haying problems (and job problems), but no, they aren't abandoning their horses. They are generally rising to the occasion to do the best they can, or at least trying to find homes if they really can't (lost jobs, etc).

The story should have been about that - how people are being very responsible despite the rise in costs. The sickos who abandon horses should appear in the stories reserved for all manner of sick human behavior (like the pit bull shot in the head, but found alive by hunters and rescued in Oregon just a bit ago, horses dragged behind trucks, and the like).

[catknsn]

SaddleFitter, great post. I used to have the ideal situation - I owned the hayfields, and the guy next door did the baling - he got half, I got half. Now that I buy hay, it's a challenge to find quality hay and you do get exactly what you pay for. But when you think about it, my 2 horses eat in alfalfa in a week far less than what I used to waste buying frappucinos. Most people have the money somewhere - it's just a question of what you are willing to give up in a hard year (cable TV? coffee? new shoes?). Sadly, some people choose to simply short the horses on food and/or abandon them.

[philosoraptor]

Just got this from thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=8268)

I could see this happening if there was no hay but just high prices is shocking to me.

The horse is the biggest load of bullshyte when it comes to the issue of slaughter.

AAEP = one of the key lobbyist groups pushing to keep slaughter the "humane answer" to anyone with an unwanted horse

The Horse = the mouthpiece of AAEP

I am so ticked off by their slanted articles.... it's fine if they're a political magazine but their image is a "horse health" periodical. Keep your political agenda out of a science magazine, AAEP. :mad:

P.S. Notice how the most recent issue has to very blatant anti-slaughterban editorial letters and zero defending the ban or at least taking a balanced middle ground. I know for a fact they recieved editorial letters clarifying the slaughter ban and/or slaughter issues. Where are these letters, The Horse?

P.P.S Notice me sending in my subscription cancellation notice with a note explaining politely I'd rather not pay money to read a special-interest group's spin on things. Makes me wonder what else the magazine is slanting? If they spin stories this much for the AAEP, it makes me wonder what other fact they're quietly omitting for their sponsors and 'friends' ?



Edited to say: my point is that The Horse keeps pushing stories about how horses are starving and so many are unwanted, as if this is a new disaster looming in the next few monts. Then they use it to add "sure is a good thing slaughter is legal to help out all these poor bankrupt horse owners who can not longer afford hay".

[bauhaus]

Lawndart,

I have helped make hay, for many summers.

Your post rings true. It sounds like all the other topics though.

FOR ALL READING:

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

Obviously, most people participating in this thread have their own farm, or need to plan for their own horse's feeding. If we go read the boarding threads, we can see how Ms. Snarky COTH horse owner is unhappy with how expensive it is to board, because she knows it only costs $xx to buy the hay and grain, and her Dobbin only eats a handful.

Or, how expensive it is to hire someone to haul.

Or how expensive the vet is.

Or how expensive the farrier is.

Or how expensive the trainer fees are.

Or how expensive the entry fees are.

Newsflash

Horses are expensive.

I have a couple of boarders. I like the company. But, I do know that they have no delusions of the "grand life" of having a farm.

I've heard all the arguments on why people who have invested in a farm should be subsidizing those who choose to not invest in a farm (they are paying off a mortgage, they live there anyway, blah blah), but, those are the people who are welcome to head out and buy their own 10 acre farmette, and be responsible 365 days a year.

Either you decide to trim your budget in other places or keep horses less extravagantly. Don't show, own your own rig (a pricey proposition), go to farrier school, buy enough land to make your own hay (I could buy hay for the next 20 years for what it would cost me to buy the equipment to make hay), learn all those things and be self-sufficient and don't pay other people. Go live in MN.

Mel

Others already have, but I'm thanking you for this post too!

Yes it's expensive, it's always been expensive, and it's always going to be expensive! As the population of our country grows, land prices are going to go up higher and higher everywhere. It has nothing to do with "evil" developers or land owners who sell to developers. It's completely inevitable unless our population levels out, which it won't. You can go farther and farther out away from high density population areas, but eventually the population is going to move into farmland b/c there's nowhere else for them to go. I am seeing suburbia move at a frightening pace towards agricultural areas in middle TN. Just since I moved my horse to her current barn a little over a year ago, I have seen 3 major subdivisions pop up on former farmland on 1 road alone! I hate to see it, but the reason it happens is b/c our economy is good, new businesses are moving into the area all the time, and the population is growing.

I have been on both sides of the boarding/taking care of a farm (not my own - my parents' farm) scenario. I truly appreciate all that barn owners/managers/hay growers, etc. do! I know it's hard, and I will happily pay my ever increasing board bill b/c I know what I'm getting for the $. If the time comes at some point when I can no longer afford my board bill, then I will be forced to make a hard decision about my horse. This is no one's fault, and everyone is in the same boat regarding the expense of keeping a horse whether you board or have your own farm.

[county]

Horses are expensive?

Thats only true if you choose them to be for us they make a large share of out living.

BTW May s not everything is about slaughter. And be honest do you really think theres no publications that are slanted to the other side of the issue?

[MistyBlue]

Cost of horse keeping depends largely on the part of the country you're in. I'm in Ct...you aren't touching an acre of land in Ct for under $100k unless it's all wetlands. (meaning unbuildable) There are 4 lots in my town for sale right now...all 2 acre lots. All 4 of them are between 70-80% wetlands. All 4 of them are $259,900. Each. Raw wet land, with ledge under the wet and buried in trees. Poplar trees...crap trees not worth anything.
We had a crapola growing year for the little bit of hay fields we have left in this state. We probably lost a good 70% of the hay crop for the year. So now our hay prices are through the rooof, or we pay an arm and leg to bring it in from a few states over. Putting up fencing alone can be expensive since we can't drive posts...the ledge shatters them. We auger the holes...a few inches then stop and use crow bars to yank out rocks, auger a few more inches...repeat process all day long. :winkgrin: Most lots are heavily wooded...clearing and destumping takes forever and the usually requires tons of grading, swales, drainage ditches and french or curtain drains. Oh, and dry wells to catch the run off. Ya know, so it doesn't run into our wetlands. Those can only have Wetland Original Wet Stuff I guess. :lol: Putting up buildings...well many of us don't have hay storage buildings because many towns require a solid foundation for buildings over certain sizes...so they can be permanant structures that get taxed. I want to put up a hay shed...the foundation for that would cost me between $6-$8k for just the foundation. (try digging in wet ledge)
In all honesty after adding in the taxes for property I have no idea why Ct has so many darned horses per capita. We must all be crazy. :yes:

[hb]

People are in control of the situation of development. Don't buy, developers will not develope what does not sell.

But the people who buy and the people who want it to remain open and farms are not the same people. If everyone who posted on COTH refused to buy in a development it would not make a difference.

There are easily thousands more people happy to buy a crappy oversized house crammed from lot line to lot line in a soulless development named Brooksidemountaincreekviewvista than there are people who give a rip whether there is enough hay to feed the livestock next year.

I've only got 5 acres, but one cutting would be enough to supply almost all of my horse's hay for a year. I'm hoping to get the time to weed/seed/fertilize next year and get some better grass growing - there are a couple of guys in the area that will come bale your pasture for $2-$3/bale. I'm thinking that's the "right" thing to do, not just to save money on feed but also to leave more "commercial" hay available for those who don't have a field to bale.

[county]

And those people have no reason to give a rip. But the excuse horse people not buying won't make a differance is a cop out. Just as farmers who complain about developers wrecking the farm industry then turning around and selling their farms to them are. Either you beleive something or you don't.

[nightsong]

Hb, I think that getting your own field(s) cut for hay is not onlllly the "right thing to do" ENVIRONMENTALLY, but the ONLY way you can be sure of quality control.

[hb]

Not a cop out. A cop out would be, well, my choice doesn't matter so I'll just buy the house in the development. I am doing what I believe in - keeping my horse at home, bought a 50+ year old smaller house instead of a huge wasteful new construction in a development, and yet, those developments keep getting built. Me living here in my old home is not making a difference. Yeah, I'm living on "only" five acres, but it was subdivided up over 30 years ago and the current zoning in this area is 35 acres to build a new home. The urban development boundary is 3 miles away, and whenever there is something on the ballot to extend that boundary or enable the agricultural land here to be developed I vote against it.

But the developments are still being built. Me not buying one of those houses had absolutely NO impact on the developer. Not a cop out, just the truth.

Years back I lived in a small, older community on a river, and a developer bought the land across the river, planning to develop in the flood plain and put in dikes etc to contain the river, destroying salmon habitat and increasing flooding downstream. I was on the board of a community group that was trying to get environmental studies done before the building was started. We had less than $1,000 in our legal fund, the developer had millions, the houses were built and this year the flooding downstream was worse than they've ever seen.

Until they start making fewer people house in the development.
developments are going to keep going up.

BTW, I'm helping in that area too, I haven't produced anyone for the next generation. No problem with anyone who chooses to do so themselves, it's your own choice, but I personally decided not to add to the population. But there are still plenty more people here than there were a few years back, and when their kids get older they'll be needing homes.

[hb]

Hb, I think that getting your own field(s) cut for hay is not onlllly the "right thing to do" ENVIRONMENTALLY, but the ONLY way you can be sure of quality control.


Yeah, the load of hay I bought this year is pretty crappy and weedy, I could have gotten hay of the same quality out of my own field without doing anything to it.

Usually the hay is much better, wonder if this is the result of the hay shortage out here.

[philosoraptor]

Not everyone will agree with me, but part of me says that hay prices should go up. Land prices go up, fuel and fertilizer go up, and even little things like the health insurance the farmer has to buy for himself go up. At the same time I'm still buying squarebales for $2.25, probably the same rate this farmer has been charging for years.

Some days I wonder why any farmers in my county would struggle to make ends meet. Taxes are skyrocketing. If they sold now they could get literally millions for some of these farms. Most of the farmers are older and could retire in such comfort instead. New people can never hope to afford farms here. Even just 5 acres here has become a big luxury.

Yet I selfishly hope they never develop the beautiful farms or raise my own horse's hay prices.

Either way as a horse owner I recognize that some years hay & grain will fluctuate up and down. And this year it's the grain increase that's hurting me more... 50-75+ cents a bag in just a few weeks time! :eek:

May s not everything is about slaughter. And be honest do you really think theres no publications that are slanted to the other side of the issue?

Name one major horse publication that poses to be factual/science while at the same time slanting against slaughter each issue (and in sneaky little ways?) Bet you a cold beer you can't do it. :D

Either it's not covered, or they gloss over it briefly mentioning both sides.

It's not that they've got political views saving all these horses from this 'impending starvation/abandonment crisis'. It's that they disguise the magazine as health science, but keep slipping their agenda in. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[county]

You honestly beleive theres no publications that are anti slaughter? That none have an agenda against horse slaughter? Come on be honest about it.

[audgesmom]

I am just amazed by the prices I am seeing for hay per ton in this discussion....I am currently paying 240 per ton of "pony hay".... random grass mix, a bit stalky, just sort of busy workish type hay for my haffies, with 7 horses total I am now feeding 2 tons per month as pasture is gone here in the n.e. I have had several quotes from other suppliers and the lowest I have seen yet is 265 per ton of the equilivant type hay in my area..I will stay with my current supplier thank you...I do have boarders who gripe about the rise in board recently (for going from 1 ton a month when we have pasture to 2 tons when we don't...we are a co-op) but good grief!!!!!! One even did the "reasearch" and was able to "save" me 80 cents per bale if I DROVE TO THE SUPPLIER WITH MY TRIALER (SO SEVERAL TRIPS), LOADED IT UP, DROVE HOME, UNLOADED IT INTO MY LOFT MYSELF WITH NO ELEVATOR and no she was not able to help with the lifting ....not worth it when for .80 more I can get it delivered and put right into my loft!!!!!! If I were able to get hay for even 220 a ton I would be thanking the hay gods on my knees daily and lighting lots of incense!!!!!!!!!!! I have a friend with tbs not air fern ponies and she just payed 310 a ton for what her guys need..and she is a very savy and efficient horse keeper so I know that she did her research......Horses are expensive and I guess its times like these that separate the men from the boys so to speak....mind you I am prepared to eat top ramen to keep my horses fed to their current standard....I have not currently got the "depth of pocket" to bring in a trailer truck load from canada or upstate ny nor do I have the storage space for much more than 6 or 7 tons anyway.....I can't stand the whining from boarders when prices go up for me (the person who holds the lease on the property and the insurance and the liability).....am I really supposed to SUBSIDIZE the horse ownership of others IN A CO-OP???????????

[lawndart]

(snip)....I can't stand the whining from boarders when prices go up for me (the person who holds the lease on the property and the insurance and the liability).....am I really supposed to SUBSIDIZE the horse ownership of others IN A CO-OP???????????


Why yes Audgesmom, you ARE supposed to subsidze these other horse owners. After all, you 'have' more then they do. And I'll bet they are complaining while standing in their designer jeans/breeches/boots, next to their late model auto. Probably while holding a takeout coffee. :(

For some reason, people never seem to understand that just because you have taken the financial (and emotional) plunge to purchase/lease your own property it does not mean you have money!!! Quite the opposite really. They never count in all the hours spent improving the property, doing maintenance, repairs, etc. Just as people purchasing hay never count the hours/labor/equipment involved to make that horse quality hay. They just complain.

I am so thankful for my boarders. Every single one of them is a horse savvy owner, we work together to keep their horse in the best health they can be in. No complaints when I raise my board (once in the last 8 years), they all are very appreciative of any 'above and beyond daily care' effort I have to make for their horse. Of course, each one of them comes from an area where the board is at least 4 times what they are paying here. I'm glad to have each and every one here. If not, I'd get discouraged real quick, and go back to working in the real world. :no:

I would guess the horse abandonment issue is a symptom of our times. After all, no one tries to fix anything, just throw it away, and get new. Or dump it on someone else, after all there is a sucker born every minute!! I feel so bad for the horses involved.....I wish I could take them all. :(

[Equilibrium]

My husband is always banging on about packing up the horses and moving back to America. And me, the American, is like we can't afford to keep horses at home. We are lucky because we usually have all year grass in Ireland. In the winter it's muddy and the grass isn't the best, but when I see what people have back home it's not that bad. I have 12 in and 8 in fields. Horses in have hay at all times. Horses in the fields get a bit of hay at night after feeding. We use 2 round bales a week which is 40 euro. Don't think that is too pricey for the amount of horses we have. At home, winter is winter. Here you get the odd snow and lots of wind and rain, but it is more mangeable from a living out prospective. Also, our vaccinations consist of one flu/t. The mares get Rhino vacs, but really couldn't afford all the other costs at home either.
Terri

[hb]

At home, winter is winter. Here you get the odd snow and lots of wind and rain, but it is more mangeable from a living out prospective.


Actually the climate there sound just like here in the PNW. This week's been freezing but that's rare and the week before thanksgiving it was warm enough for the grass to be growing.

[JumpingPaints]

The horse is the biggest load of bullshyte when it comes to the issue of slaughter.

AAEP = one of the key lobbyist groups pushing to keep slaughter the "humane answer" to anyone with an unwanted horse

The Horse = the mouthpiece of AAEP

I am so ticked off by their slanted articles.... it's fine if they're a political magazine but their image is a "horse health" periodical. Keep your political agenda out of a science magazine, AAEP. :mad:

P.S. Notice how the most recent issue has to very blatant anti-slaughterban editorial letters and zero defending the ban or at least taking a balanced middle ground. I know for a fact they recieved editorial letters clarifying the slaughter ban and/or slaughter issues. Where are these letters, The Horse?

P.P.S Notice me sending in my subscription cancellation notice with a note explaining politely I'd rather not pay money to read a special-interest group's spin on things. Makes me wonder what else the magazine is slanting? If they spin stories this much for the AAEP, it makes me wonder what other fact they're quietly omitting for their sponsors and 'friends' ?

Edited to say: my point is that The Horse keeps pushing stories about how horses are starving and so many are unwanted, as if this is a new disaster looming in the next few monts. Then they use it to add "sure is a good thing slaughter is legal to help out all these poor bankrupt horse owners who can not longer afford hay".

You hit the nail on the head here MayS. I too am tired of their biased editorials full of misleading and blatantly inaccurate information designed to promote horse slaughter in the US and Canada. This article deliberately used an inflammatory title to conjure up images of people abandoning horses right and left because hay prices in some areas have increased (as they always do at this time of year, and after a substandard yield). The article offered no proof that the one causes the other or even that abandonment has increased! Really poor journalism.

[eurofoal]

This topic has always been a concern of mine. If developers buy up farmland and, well, develop...then what happens to the availability of the crops that were produced? I mean, how many people are getting *into* hay farming? It seems like the availability will just continue to decrease. I tend to be a "worst case scenario" thinker and this is something that I worry about very frequently. Unfortunately, I can only store 2 tons in my barn; I have no other area to store hay. IIRC, it is about $250/ton because I have to buy it at the feed store. I wish I had a huge hay storage building, then I would buy a year's worth and hoard it...mine, all mine...muahaaahaaaahhaaaa!


We're in California too, and have just sold our hay ranch.

The demand for the water (alfalfa is a water intensive crop) is directed to cities. Each little fee increase for production costs (namely fuel and water), has a huge impact on the bottom line. The farm land is literally drying up, and not just for horse hay.... almonds, lettuce, oranges, vineyards... the "highest and best" use for land is still to plunk a million dollar house on an acre or so.

Just today I was reading in our AG ALERT magazine that the Klamath river farmers, who consume only 3 percent of the water that makes its way to the ocean, are being cut again on behalf of the Coho salmon. 3percent seems like such a tiny amount... you'd think they'd ask the cities to cut back on lawns, car washing, etc, instead of just ruling against food production all the time. Why is it that California's just don't want to cut down on personal gardens at all? We're in the desert, for pete's sake!

[eurofoal]

Months ago I posted on here that hay prices would be rising because of the increase in the price of diesel fuel, and fertilizer. I got a 'yeah so what' response :confused: Horse people have to start thinking farther ahead. Between development, and the aging of the farm population, its not going to get any better. If farmers know there is a demand for good quality hay ahead of time they will meet that need, if at all possible. It takes a couple of years to get a really good field of Timothy producing unless weather conditions are optimal. Talk to your local farmers, farm bureau members, feed store, etc. You have to get your need for hay out there for them to act upon.

DH and I make our own hay for my horses and my boarders, plus a few cows to eat the bales not good enough. Our kids have always helped, we put away between 3000 to 5000 bales in 6 week time window. Now, oldest son, who was the biggest help, is in the Navy. Daughter is in college, hopefully she will be home enough to help this summer. Youngest son is going to have to work harder than ever. How we are going to do this once they are all gone, well, we talk about it all the time. No one wants to do this type of work anymore. And the liability of having untrained people around moving farm machinery... :eek: I won't do round bales, I'm not a fan of them for many reasons.

If anyone has ever made hay, they would not complain about the rising cost of it. We have been lucky for many, many years to have such affordable hay, considering the time, labor, and hope put into a ton of hay.

You HOPE that your new seedings will not get frozen out or wither away in drought conditions

You HOPE that fertilizer will not go up in costs, again. Same for seed cost. Same for cost of twine.

You HOPE that your baler that is over 30 years old will make it another year. Ditto for tractor/rake/tedder/hay elevator.

You HOPE that no one essential to making the hay (in my case DH) gets ill or hurt in haying season.

You HOPE that no one schedules an important event, like weddings, graduations, family reunions in the middle of haying season, cause its not likely you will get to go. I also HOPE my daughter doesn't have a rodeo that weekend. IF she does, we stay home to make hay. Screws up her points, but the horses gotta eat.

You HOPE AND PRAY that the weather will co-operate. Not only do you have to time the cutting of hay correctly (before it goes into heads) you have to depend on an accurate weather forecast. Where I live, it takes three days from cutting to harvesting, unless we have exceptional drying weather. We have had 20 acres of beautiful hay laying, HOURS away from harvesting, and been 'blessed' with an unpredicted rainfall. Its enough to make you weep. :sadsmile:

Then, when you are able to bale it, you work a 14 to 18 hour day, because you still have a real job (hay won't support you and your family), and horses of your own to feed. Sometimes I'm so tired after a day running from sun to well after sunset, I fall asleep the second I sit down. DH has his own business that has nothing to do with farming, so he is even more stressed. Despite being filthy with hay dirt/grease from the baler/elevator/pto, taking a shower almost seems like too much work.

I just can't have a lot of sympathy for people bitching about paying $5 a bale for excellent quality hay. Heck, around here people don't want to pay $2 a bale for great hay. So what is my incentive to make any to sell to anyone else? Just so I can have people call to come for hay, then not show up? Want to come on a Sunday because its a good time for them, but not caring that its not a good time for us? So I can have them complain that they have to load their own truck? Or DEMAND two bales in exchange for the one bale they ended up with that was NQR? Screw that, we no longer sell to the public. And I know plenty of others that feel the same way. Farmers are all eventually going to sell thru auctions/feed stores/or sell entire crop in one go. Then where will the horse owner go? Why to the feed store to pay $10 a bale for medium quality hay. And it will be no ones fault but their own.

Whew! I feel better now! ;)

I know someone will have to either tell me I'm totally wrong, or flame me for this post. If you do, you had better have made a lot of hay in the past, or at least have a clue of the effort/time/ and expense involved. :winkgrin:

This is a great post if you know anything at all about farming. I'm just amazed when people complain that they haven't had a weekend away or a weekday off or something along those lines. A farmer WORKS, and works till the job is done, with no whining or complaining. My husband routinely works 15-20 hour days during hay season, including Saturday and Sunday. HIs idea of time off is an afternoon, not a day or two. There's no way that we'd even consider a major event in the summer (our babies were planned for autumn births,).

In fact, have any of you ever seen the "Farmer takes a Wife" essay. It's a riot... hit's pretty close to home. I'll see if I can find it on line.

[county]

I totally agree with you JP but I see it as all those things from anti slaughter people and articles not pro slaughter.

[mairzeadoats]

That is the most absurd statement I've ever read. :rolleyes:

Then you haven't read very much, have you. Our current "strong" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer. A smaller and smaller percentage of people are sucking up more and more of the wealth. And the former middle class who were dumped are struggling.

Unemployment may be down, but when tens of thousands of hard working, educated people who formerly earned 6 figures after 20 year careers were dumped at what should have been their peak earning years find themselves making $10/hour or worse, while corporate profits skyrocket and CEOs take home record-breaking incomes...something is seriously wrong.

My guess is that is why horse abandonments are on the rise. The same thing happened back in the mid-late 80s too. Rescues overflowing, horses abandoned, truckloads of well-bred horses shipped to slaughter.

[philosoraptor]

My guess is that is why horse abandonments are on the rise. The same thing happened back in the mid-late 80s too. Rescues overflowing, horses abandoned, truckloads of well-bred horses shipped to slaughter.

Hey, Marizedoats... I'm making an effort to understand this point of view. Can you direct me to resources that document a big spike in abandonments, overflowing rescues, etc (excluding The Horse)?

I know our rescue org here has been doing better than expected in placing horses into homes. Our group will never turn away a horse because he's less than perfect. It's great to see caring people looking to adopt who don't mind a horse who isn't young or ____ (insert desirable traits here). Just placed a formerly meatbound quarterhorse last week, and we've got a really good prospect for this warmblood pony-horse that only arrived a few weeks ago. If I had a few more sound riding horses, I could place them easily. However, I can't speak for all regions of the country or all rescue organizations.

I am not convinced surplus horses or poor economy results in a spike in slaughter. Slaughter plants kill to meet the demand for meat in europe, correct? They don't kill horses for any other reason (eg. they're not a kill shelter trying to solve a population problem).

[clanter]

The price of hay for the rest of the country is just going to continue to increase as the drought in north Texas continues. Prices have stabilized somewhat at around $320 a ton for coastal or alfalfa .

Most of us that have horses here have contracted with suppliers on the west coast and are having the hay trucked in which is ending up with $320 retail ton price.

Most hay in the adjoining states is being bought up and transferred into Texas which then causes other states to import hay from states that adjoin them

[sidepasser]

no...this summer it cost the same amount of diesel fuel to run a tractor over a field of "cow" hay as it did "horse" hay or "dairy" hay or "alpaca" hay....and with farm diesel jumping almost 40cents over nite and still not have come down....well the cost for even the yuckiest stuff must go up...

it has nothing to do with horse people buying it and being charged more because they were "horse" people...it is about a $30 a ton increase in fuel per ton of production from seed to harvest....lots of farmers decided not to fertilize this year as well....saving both fertilizer and farm tractor costs....

the results are neighboring/local fields I have not seen in a decade even bushhogged have been cut for hay....and then on the regrowth the fields left farrow are now are now being stockpiled with feeder cattle since the bottom dropped out last month.....cut the crap off and bale it and let feeders eat the good stuff underneath....

Tamara in TN

That may be true Tamara about rising diesel costs, and costs of production, but where I live, horse hay costs more than cow hay. Cow hay - which is normally not as good quality as horse hay grown specifically for horses, sells for 2 to 3.00 per bale less. Of course cow people can buy horse hay, but their costs increase to produce the beef. I buy horse quality hay which is tested by the AG. department for nutritional content. It's limed, fertilized and kept weed free so a bale has no briars, stickers, weeds, etc. in it. I pay more for the hay because I don't have waste. Most cow folks around here won't buy that kind of hay for their cows because they have to keep production costs down. Horse folks - well it's a luxury really to own a horse, but they will pay more for a bale of good quality hay that their horse will eat. So producers around here have started growing hay specifically for that market, hence the price increases.

I won't feed fescue/crab grass/what have you hay to my horses, they would just waste half a bale, so I pay more. Even so, the prices to produce horse quality hay have increased as well. I protected myself somewhat by buying on contract at a set price that was set in 2005 for 2006. I still saw a mid year increase due to lack of production which was not the hay farmer's fault, just a fact of no rain - no hay. But it was a minor increase over the contract. Those without a contract, didn't get the hay they were trying to buy as there was no extra to be had. I can sleep at night because I know sitting in a barn, I have hay to last for the next 7 months until cutting begins again.

I am fortunate that I found a grower who produces top quality hay for a reasonable price and I didn't throw a fit when he had to increase it to cover his production costs and make a profit. I throw a fit when my feed store owner wants to buy hay from me and then double the price to sell to someone less fortunate. (so I didnt' sell any of mine to the store). That in my mind, is price gouging because I know what the hay cost to begin with and even marking it up a dollar or two is fine, but don't tell me that buying hay at 5.00 a bale and marking it up to 10.00 is necessary to make a profit! (sorry small rant and not directed at you Tamara!).

I live on a road that used to be primarily farms - now it is primarily subdivisions. I have the second largest tract of land on this road at 32 acres, the largest is 400 acres. This is a five mile road and there used to be nothing but tracts of land of 30 to 500 acres..all of that has gone in the last 20 years. Nothing but houses as far as one can see and more being built everyday. The latest subdivision is 165 houses on a 240 acre tract that sold last year.

Heck I may have to move to get back in the country.

[shakeytails]

If anyone has ever made hay, they would not complain about the rising cost of it. We have been lucky for many, many years to have such affordable hay, considering the time, labor, and hope put into a ton of hay.

You HOPE that your new seedings will not get frozen out or wither away in drought conditions

You HOPE that fertilizer will not go up in costs, again. Same for seed cost. Same for cost of twine.

You HOPE that your baler that is over 30 years old will make it another year. Ditto for tractor/rake/tedder/hay elevator.

You HOPE that no one essential to making the hay (in my case DH) gets ill or hurt in haying season.

You HOPE that no one schedules an important event, like weddings, graduations, family reunions in the middle of haying season, cause its not likely you will get to go. I also HOPE my daughter doesn't have a rodeo that weekend. IF she does, we stay home to make hay. Screws up her points, but the horses gotta eat.

You HOPE AND PRAY that the weather will co-operate. Not only do you have to time the cutting of hay correctly (before it goes into heads) you have to depend on an accurate weather forecast. Where I live, it takes three days from cutting to harvesting, unless we have exceptional drying weather. We have had 20 acres of beautiful hay laying, HOURS away from harvesting, and been 'blessed' with an unpredicted rainfall. Its enough to make you weep. :sadsmile:

Then, when you are able to bale it, you work a 14 to 18 hour day, because you still have a real job (hay won't support you and your family), and horses of your own to feed. Sometimes I'm so tired after a day running from sun to well after sunset, I fall asleep the second I sit down. DH has his own business that has nothing to do with farming, so he is even more stressed. Despite being filthy with hay dirt/grease from the baler/elevator/pto, taking a shower almost seems like too much work.

Boy do I know about all that, and we mainly worry about getting up enough hay for our own, with a little extra to sell. The last cutting of this year I absolutely had to go to work early (7pm) and DH was sick as a dog. It was definitely going to rain that night and nobody was available to help- so we had to leave probably about 75 bales worth in the field. Not a lot really, but when I think that those 75 bales would have fed the inside horses for almost a month it's kinda disheartening. We've also lost fields of hay to unexpected rain or equipment breakdown right before rain, but I really can't justify spending 12,000+ on a brand-new baler for a few thousand bales of hay a year.

We sell under 1000 bales/yr, and this year I've had requests for more hay than I feel safe parting with. Part of the reason is the work involved. Very, very few people put up square bales anymore because it's a whole lot easier to round bale. Heck, that's one of the reasons we started baling our own hay to begin with! I think prices on hay are going to keep going up, it's just the whole supply and demand cycle.

[gwenrowdy]

A rescuer in Colorado, Ahimsa Ranch Animal Rescue, recently had their entire hay supply worth $1000.00 stolen on the auction grounds where it was purchased. Please be vigilant. I'm afraid we may be hearing about more and more of these incidents.

[War Admiral]

Then you haven't read very much, have you. Our current "strong" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer. A smaller and smaller percentage of people are sucking up more and more of the wealth. And the former middle class who were dumped are struggling.

Unemployment may be down, but when tens of thousands of hard working, educated people who formerly earned 6 figures after 20 year careers were dumped at what should have been their peak earning years find themselves making $10/hour or worse, while corporate profits skyrocket and CEOs take home record-breaking incomes...something is seriously wrong.

My guess is that is why horse abandonments are on the rise. The same thing happened back in the mid-late 80s too. Rescues overflowing, horses abandoned, truckloads of well-bred horses shipped to slaughter.

THANK YOU. Could not have put it better myself. That's exactly what's happening in my neck of the woods, exactly.

I discovered an interesting thing last week when we had a barn get-together. Out of a total of 20 boarders in attendance, not ONE of us has health insurance. NOT. EVEN. ONE. Nor do the BO and the BM. To me, that's the kind of stat that speaks volumes. None of us are willing to ditch our horses, some of us are even willing to starve to try to keep them (hey, I've lost 30 pounds, and trust me that is a GOOD thing in my case! :D ), and we're all trying to help each other out as best we can just to stay alive.

Thriving economy? Blow me. :rolleyes:

[summerhorse]

I don't care what any government figures say. The economy SUCKS. And horses are expensive. And dumping them is illegal no matter what hay prices are.

Frankly considering we HAVE slaughter and people are abandoning horses it would indicate that economics are NOT at the root of their decision. They could just as easily drive that horse to animal control, a rescue, or an auction (or some people live close enough to a dealer or slaughter plant to drive them there directly) as out to the woods. People dump animals because they don't want to be responsible for them for whatever reasons (and a lot of animals are dumped by people who are NOT their owners or guardians). Even a run down skinny horse that is sound and broke is useful to someone but hey that would require a little work to actually advertise it or even if you give it away, check references. If they can't give that horse away then probably it means that it is not broke or not sound in some way. If it is cheap enough then kill buyers will come to your DOOR and pick it up. Anyone who is so concerned that the kill buyers don't get it is not going to abandon it somewhere to fend for itself.

Hay prices have ALWAYS fluctuated. There have ALWAYS been sucky economies, droughts, fires, endless rain, employment issues, etc. etc. etc. And there always will be. As was pointed out so well above:

HORSES ARE EXPENSIVE.

They always will be. And certain areas of the country more vulnerable to hay shortages and land shortages than others. You just have to plan ahead. And if someone can't afford to feed their horse HAY then they can't afford to keep a HORSE. They probably can't afford to buy it feed, shots, wormer, farrier visits and god help it if it gets sick or hurt. If you can't afford it and/or are not willing to sacrifice for it you don't need a pet of any kind. They aren't toys.

I am paying 6.25 a bale for average hay (its actually pretty good for NW Fl but then it is grown in GA!) and I'm HAPPY to pay that to A) have decent hay and B) Have ANY hay!! So I will have to adjust the budget somewhere else. Oh well.

[Sabina]

Hey, Marizedoats... I'm making an effort to understand this point of view. Can you direct me to resources that document a big spike in abandonments, overflowing rescues, etc (excluding The Horse)?

I know our rescue org here has been doing better than expected in placing horses into homes. Our group will never turn away a horse because he's less than perfect. It's great to see caring people looking to adopt who don't mind a horse who isn't young or ____ (insert desirable traits here). Just placed a formerly meatbound quarterhorse last week, and we've got a really good prospect for this warmblood pony-horse that only arrived a few weeks ago. If I had a few more sound riding horses, I could place them easily. However, I can't speak for all regions of the country or all rescue organizations.

I am not convinced surplus horses or poor economy results in a spike in slaughter. Slaughter plants kill to meet the demand for meat in europe, correct? They don't kill horses for any other reason (eg. they're not a kill shelter trying to solve a population problem).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess you had to be a sentient human being during the Reagan years to notice what happened.
Your last paragraph is a cruel fantasy if ever I heard one.
My God.
Start going to the auctions and the pet shelters weekly for more than a year. Live in a rural state with a crappy economy and watch what happens. Stock your little farm with used equipment bought at dispersal auctions from people going broke. Watch people get laid off and wonder if your spouse will be next. Wonder how you'll make your mortgage payments if it happens to you. Heat with wood because you have to. Buy your first horse for under....$200. The first thing that people who cannot take care of themselves financially anymore, or are forced to move, do is ditch their luxuries, and pets (if you want to put horses in that category) ARE a luxury.
Horse auctions (not the higher end registered breed ones, but the regular ones) are the puppy/kitten equivalent of the animal shelter hold. Some make it out, and some don't.

[Luckydonkey]

I bought hay today. I live in Oregon in the mid willamette valley- I buy my hay during the winter from our local feed/seed mill. It is locally owned and operated by a family who has been in the area for ages- thye lease and own 1000's upon 1000's of acres, and raise grass seed, and produce fescue hay in both small bales and large 1000 pound squares. They also truck hay in from other places so they can sell year round- they supply a huge area- today it took me 3 hours to get loaded, there were so many people trying to get hay bought- Yesterday they got in 16 squeeze blocks of 100 # grass hay bales- today they sold out completely before noon. They were out of oats, they were out of orchard grass hay, and all they had left was eastern oregon orchard/ alfalfa mix- today it was $200 a ton. I know not as bad as many people have it- but for those of us who are used to paying a lot less, that was sticker shock. Our hay is getting trucked everywhere else- there is no grass hay available in the willamette valley this year- first year I have never seen adds for hay for sale locally- last year I bought all the grass I wanted for $80 a ton, and had no trouble getting it- the stuff they sold out of this morning was $150 a ton- they said they will not have grass hay for the rest of the season- and they think they will run out of their big fescue bales as well... we have had 2 bad hay years in a row- first year too dry, this year too wet- I see the effects- and it is scary. I feel lucky- I keep my horses at home, and we have 3 acres- and this is the first year I am able to keep my horses off our pasture completely as they now have a new barn with stalls and runs- I feed hay year round as it is, but look forward ot having some grass for them later on... I have a boarder as well- and she supplements my feed bill- and keeps me company- I don't expect to get rich off her, nor do i plan on raising my costs to meet the hay prices- although I definatly understand why boarding costs are on the rise... like everyone else is saying - horses are not cheap to feed- so we either get out of them or pay up,lol... Like I said- I bought hay today.....;)

[Tamara in TN]

That may be true Tamara about rising diesel costs, and costs of production, but where I live, horse hay costs more than cow hay. Cow hay - which is normally not as good quality as horse hay grown specifically for horses, sells for 2 to 3.00 per bale less. Of course cow people can buy horse hay, but their costs increase to produce the beef. .

my husbands family is a long line of cattle folks both dairy and cow calf charolais...my pony prefix in fact is theirs registered long ago with the hereford and charolais associations :) he says it is it shameful what cattle are "forced to eat" so I know exactly the sort of hay you are talking about...
:yes:

happily the days of the "on the cheap" cattle raisers are dying out....sure there will always be the ignorant backyarder but even those boys have start to figure out the nonsense in feeding weeds as weeds make costs rise in a loss of gain per day the only exception being in "dry" cattle....

beef "dry cattle" being them having been weaned of calf and not close in birth date of another or dairy cows waiting to refreshen....these alone are the only cattle who do well on "weeds" and even then not for long :winkgrin:

anyway....feeding cattle weeds and then selling them will ALWAYS drop your money at the stockyard which is the general end point for most cattle if not in your personal freezer....

we kill and fatten our own hogs and cattle and sell the extra and when we have a year where we have had a loss of hay quality we will pin hook out 20 or so double ought bred cows and feed the hay to them...they calve in the spring looking yummy and slick from our not so good horse hay ;) and we take the pairs back to the sale and all the moeny we may have lost on yucky hay we have made in gain per day increase on cow calf pairs !!!! :winkgrin:

more than you wanted to know about "cow hay " ??? :) I am sure....but the days of under educated buyers of hay even in that world are slowly ending....the old farmers who thought baling the weeds each year was just peachy is ending because even that has no value other than land relclamation....and that hay has no value if the strings are so loose that it cannot be hauled to the oil or gas mines up in the mountains....


modern farmers are learning that there is NO REWARD in neglecting your fields like daddy done unless you are just waiting for a developer who will send in earth movers and put up a semi truck terminal....

but honestly horse people as a WHOLE need to come off a little less....hummmmm what is the word....obnoxious and undereducated when they deal with hay farmers....

this alone is the sole reason that many many farmers would rather sell to a feed store than 40 individual people....or they sell it to us....we have 20,000 bales of KY alf. purchased that the seller (60 yo third generation farmer) sold to us at half what he could (direct quote) "peddle out 100 bales at a time to those goofy harse women" the profit was not worth the hard feelings and aggravation....there are entire farm newsletter articles devoted to how to get along with horse hay buyers....that should not have to happen!!!!

if I can do anything on COTH BB it would be to spread that message to everyone....farmers are rarely horse people and horse people are rarely famers....take a translator if you have to but practice more tongue biting and try to see his world as well.....:)

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=MayS;2035951] Slaughter plants kill to meet the demand for meat in europe, correct? QUOTE]


oh no! only about 10% of slaughtered horses make the EU standards for people food...one carcass bruise (from injection or poor handling or over crowding) renders the entire carcass unedible for people to eat...

there is in fact a whole industy with specialty packing houses devoted horse meat for feeding exotic big cats and wolves in both zoos and private collections....

Tamara in TN

[sidepasser]

Very good post Tamara! I have been buying hay for about 30 years and I have hauled hay, put up hay with the farmers, and helped bale, and that is some of the most backbreaking work ever. Thankfully my hayman has the square bale loader thing that will stack hay into squares so that makes it a bit easier. Last summer in the blistering heat, I helped load out my truck and trailer and thought to myself...this is one job I would never do - I almost fainted from the constant high humidity and heat!

I love my hayman and his wife - they are good people and try to give me a break when they can. I pay them promptly, and they allow me to pick up my hay out of their barn at my convenience and trust me to only take what I have paid for. I send their check before I go to pick up the hay. I pick up any strings that are lying around and wind them up and put them in the string pile, and we also move pallets into the "stack" so that he does not have to do that. I holler at the teenagers about "don't you leave a mess" and will rake up into a small pile the hay that drops.

My hayman appreciates that so it is a great relationship and one that I value. He has much money in his automated baler equipment and stacker equipment so that has cut his labor costs somewhat, but still he must employ several people to actually load trucks to carry the hay back for storage and then stack it. That costs him money too.

I feel for the farmers that still producing square bales because they are labor intensive and machinery intensive. I don't complain about hayfarmers getting more for their hay, I do complain about price gouging though. I feel that it is unfair to the customers when someone gets so greedy that they double or triple the price and don't care that their loyal customers are taking a beating. I know some increases are due to fuel, but like my feed store, driving two miles to pick up a load from me (if I were to sell any) and then marking the hay up double is no more than price gouging. If I had any to sell, I would sell directly to the horse owner at my cost plus a quarter or so for my time..that's fair since I have to make a 200 mile round trip to get the hay in the first place.

Wish I had some of your alflafa, I just ran out and will have to try to buy a few more bales!

Hope everyone here can find and buy their hay and I promise if I came to buy some alfalfa...I would not have to bite my tongue to keep from complaining about the cost!! I know how hard it is to produce it and put it up firsthand!

[BelladonnaLily]

Thriving economy? Blow me. :rolleyes:


Wow. Thats nice. :no:

[MistyBlue]

My regular hay supplier has dairy cows...and the hay he feeds those cows is better than most people feed their horses. He says it only makes sense to grow and bale the best hay you can for dairy cows because it reflects 100% on the milk quality and production of the cows.
Unfortunately this year I can't buy hay from him, due to the weather we had he lost most of his crop to rain or mold. :no:
I found a new guy who has really nice hay...I'm paying for it, but it's worth it to have nice hay. A very good quality timothy/grass mix...cut and baled at the right time and not stalky, nice timothy heads and my horses love it. I plan on tipping him well for a holiday bonus and add in plates of homemade goodies as a thank you. :yes:

[lawndart]

We're in California too, and have just sold our hay ranch.

The demand for the water (alfalfa is a water intensive crop) is directed to cities. Each little fee increase for production costs (namely fuel and water), has a huge impact on the bottom line. The farm land is literally drying up, and not just for horse hay.... almonds, lettuce, oranges, vineyards... the "highest and best" use for land is still to plunk a million dollar house on an acre or so.

Just today I was reading in our AG ALERT magazine that the Klamath river farmers, who consume only 3 percent of the water that makes its way to the ocean, are being cut again on behalf of the Coho salmon. 3percent seems like such a tiny amount... you'd think they'd ask the cities to cut back on lawns, car washing, etc, instead of just ruling against food production all the time. Why is it that California's just don't want to cut down on personal gardens at all? We're in the desert, for pete's sake!

I'd like to see stats on how much water Golf courses use. If a GC covers say 20 acres, does it justify using more water than say 20 acres of lettuce? When the prices of foodstuff start to skyrocket, as it surely will, then people will get their heads out of their butts just long enough to say "What happened?".

My personal giggle is when I read about outrage over 'farm subsidies'. Now, maybe Cargill or Tyson is making a huge amount in subsidies, but I'm sure as hell not. For 2004 we got a grand total of $769 for the 60 acres we rent for hay. Since it costs me $600 to rent that land, that gives me a whopping $169 to put toward seed/fertilizer/lime. Wow, that'll make a big dent in my fertilizer bill. I'm just grateful (after reading above post) that the water from the sky in PA is still free. And grateful that I can spread the horse manure to cut down on the fertilizer bill.

[lawndart]

(snip)

but honestly horse people as a WHOLE need to come off a little less....hummmmm what is the word....obnoxious and undereducated when they deal with hay farmers....

this alone is the sole reason that many many farmers would rather sell to a feed store than 40 individual people....or they sell it to us....we have 20,000 bales of KY alf. purchased that the seller (60 yo third generation farmer) sold to us at half what he could (direct quote) "peddle out 100 bales at a time to those goofy harse women" the profit was not worth the hard feelings and aggravation....there are entire farm newsletter articles devoted to how to get along with horse hay buyers....that should not have to happen!!!!

if I can do anything on COTH BB it would be to spread that message to everyone....farmers are rarely horse people and horse people are rarely famers....take a translator if you have to but practice more tongue biting and try to see his world as well.....:)

Tamara in TN

Here here!! Excellent post.

[MySparrow]

I'm no fan of urban sprawl, and I hope that the twenty-year-old "new urbanism" takes hold at some point. But I have to say that farmettes are in many cases part of the solution rather than part of the problem. In our subdivision, built 30 years ago on the site of a dairy farm that aged out of the business, our five to 15-acre lots serve as part of the riparian corridor, guard against silting and runoff because of good land use practices, preserve old trees and plant new. Fifty years ago their were 55 dairy farms in our county. Now there are two. Not because of development -- most of those former dairy farms are still well outside the path and lying fallow -- but because of large-scale agribusiness, which priced them out of the market, and because the work was just too hard and too poorly-paid. As I see it, our subdivision gave that farmer and his family some retirement money.

Another subdivision nearby is built on what was a tornado woods -- vast acres of churned up earth, downed timber, first-stage regrowth left behind by a monster tornado that walked through here 10 years ago. We used to ride through there, and watch the tattered earth leak its loose soil into the waterways or blow away in a dry wind. Now, thanks to human intervention, the soil has been reclaimed, sculpted into good drainage, trees have been replanted and individual lots of 5+ acres have been protected as riparian corridor and with good management practices by strong covenants.

There is bad and there is good in almost any human endeavor. The trick is not to damn all or praise all, but to support the good and reeducate the bad. Don't you think?

[tmo0hul]

Tamara - I agree that we as horse people need to "feel the pain" of the hay farmer. I do. I have put up hay and it is backbreaking, hot work. On the other hand, I also need that hay farmer to be able to get along with me too. Case and point...we moved in August. I didn't pre-purchase hay before this point because I had no way to move the hay to a new farm. I contracted with a "reputable" hay farmer in my new town for special bailed hay in August (1/2 size round bales). I paid about 50% more per lb of hay, but for me it was worth it. When it arrived, the hay was terrible. Full of mold. I called the farmer and was told that the hay was put up right (dry), but that he would make it right. About a month passed before he managed to get me different hay. This time they were full size round bales - BUT I didn't get 50% more hay! Put one out - moldy all the way through. (Can I tell you how difficult it is to pull back out a round bale that you have unwrapped and dug thorugh to find the "good" part!) Called the guy (this was just last week) and said come pick up this s*%t you just delivered and I want my $$ back (well - that is what I was thinking in my head at least. Somehow I managed to be sweet although I was seething). He said fine but his cows liked it just fine. :no: The hay is still sitting here, and I haven't gotten a dime back. So, I've had to re-purchase hay in late November that would have cost a lot less in August. And I've paid for it twice. Feel sorry for this hay farmer? I think not.

[Sannois]

People will complain about anything wont they! :eek:

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara - I agree that we as horse people need to "feel the pain" of the hay farmer. The hay is still sitting here, and I haven't gotten a dime back. So, I've had to re-purchase hay in late November that would have cost a lot less in August. And I've paid for it twice. Feel sorry for this hay farmer? I think not.

hello

I don't want you to feel sorry for anyone....:winkgrin: esp someone who represents a product as one thing and sells another....outright fraud is handled simply with one trip to the county DA's office....here for about $120 bucks I can sue anyone I please....

give the farmer one notice to pick up the hay by "X" day and/ or return your money in full if he made any warranties or claims to such...and tell him you will file on him otherwise....this will get a response from him of some sort....but make sure your evidence in court will be verifiable....and obvious to the judge handling the case....:yes: if he knows it was crap he will pay up...if not he can waste a day in court and explain himself....

my original post is much more intended that what totally suits one "horse person" will make another panic and send 13 phone calls in 48 hours to a farmer's house at all hours, because she knows he is "avoiding her calls" :winkgrin:

there is NO across the board standard for a 1000 bale a year farmer to follow in regards to horse people...none...
dairy ? sure
alpaca? yep !
milking sheep ? yes
beef cattle ?? yes

horses ??? ...none...other than maybe you can get them to agree on "green,weed free and no mold"...toss in low carb?low sugar? fescue or none ? variety and cutting...what Msknowitall down the boarding barn aisle said...r4esale or private caretaker and things are just not very "cut and dry"....as it were :lol:

so anyway....Mr Farmer has a barn full of hay and sells it....and like someone's sig line here says "two horse people,three different opinions" :(

Tamara in TN

[county]

I have never understood the concept of " cow hay " and " horse hay " I've farmed in AZ. and Mn. all my life and we just have hay its fed to both our cattle and our horses. Same hay, same feilds, same way of putting it up. Why would I feed poor quality hay to either animal? Everyone I know with cattle have them to make money. You do not make money with livestock feeding poor quality food stuffs.

[shakeytails]

I have never understood the concept of " cow hay " and " horse hay " I've farmed in AZ. and Mn. all my life and we just have hay its fed to both our cattle and our horses. Same hay, same feilds, same way of putting it up. Why would I feed poor quality hay to either animal? Everyone I know with cattle have them to make money. You do not make money with livestock feeding poor quality food stuffs.

I can't figure that one out, either. I guess some horse people have never seen the hay that dairymen feed to their cows. I wouldn't feed it to my horses simply because it's a whole lot better quality hay than any of mine need. I like grass hay so they can always have something to eat in front of them- with that super rich alfalfa I'd have to limit quantities. Any many cattle folks with average hay sell the lower quality hay as "horse hay". We have had some bales that were put up too wet and have gotten moldy, when we had cows we'd throw them out in the field and let the cows pick thru them. Yeah, cows can eat moldy hay without getting sick, but nobody that I know purposely puts up poor quality hay just because "it's just for cattle".

[Sannois]

I can't figure that one out, either. I guess some horse people have never seen the hay that dairymen feed to their cows. I wouldn't feed it to my horses simply because it's a whole lot better quality hay than any of mine need. I like grass hay so they can always have something to eat in front of them- with that super rich alfalfa I'd have to limit quantities. Any many cattle folks with average hay sell the lower quality hay as "horse hay". We have had some bales that were put up too wet and have gotten moldy, when we had cows we'd throw them out in the field and let the cows pick thru them. Yeah, cows can eat moldy hay without getting sick, but nobody that I know purposely puts up poor quality hay just because "it's just for cattle".

the Hay the local dairy farm feeds is far too rich for most horses I know.. talk about emerald green alfalfa. I want to eat it!!

[Cherry]

posted by county--
I have never understood the concept of " cow hay " and " horse hay"
I don't get that concept either county, but I'm not a farmer nor have I ever raised any livestock. Just keep a horse (and kept a pony at one time)! :uhoh: I like eating good and I would imagine animals do too! :yes: And like you said--"you can't make money with livestock feeding poor quality food stuffs.".

The people that keep my horse sometimes get in a few lambs to raise for lambchops--those poor critters get some feed the first few weeks in an attempt to get them to follow their caretaker but after that they're just thrown out on the pasture and that's supposed to fatten them up for the kill! :confused: Not sure quite how, but.... I imagine it fattens them up to some extent but to get good meat on their bones I would think it would take some feed to do it! :yes: Just common sense????

[Tamara in TN]

Not sure quite how, but.... I imagine it fattens them up to some extent but to get good meat on their bones I would think it would take some feed to do it! :yes: Just common sense????

sadly the current "grass fed" craze is (IMO) leading to the lowering of quality of the short lives of more than a few animals...and creating some pretty blecky cuts of meat :lol:

Tamara in TN

[onthebit]

My husband is a 7th generation farmer. He has a bumper sticker on his truck that says "Support Your Local Farmer Or Watch the Houses Grow"

Obviously not too many people read that around us as we are going from being surrounded by 2,000 open farmland acres to 1400 houses (with a starting price of $600,000) and a golfcourse within the span of 8 months. People really do need to educate themselves about where their food supply is coming from, how it is produced and how it made it to your table. You need to be worrying about where your horse hay will come from as well, but start learning about where a lot of the food in the grocery store comes from. You would probably change your buying practices ASAP.

We are currently looking to purchase land to move our retired horse boarding and beef cattle business. This farm I have no doubt will be sold in a couple of years. My family didn't move here to be surrounded by snotty kids living in McMansions. I'm sure most of the people will be quite nice but it only takes a couple of snotty ones that don't understand "no trespassing" to ruin it.

[onthebit]

sadly the current "grass fed" craze is (IMO) leading to the lowering of quality of the short lives of more than a few animals...and creating some pretty blecky cuts of meat :lol:

Tamara in TN

I would argue that - come visit our farm. Their lives are very peaceful on our carefully managed pastures and the beef we produce is excellent - ask our hundreds of customers. If you know what you are doing you do not have to feed them an unnatural diet to "fatten them up" and put good meat on them, nor does it require living in confinement. All in all if I had to be a food animal I would really hope to wind up on our farm.

[TBPNW]

My family used to raise beef cattle and would sell hay only to take a tax break. Otherwise, there was no profit in doing it. The farm was later sold by remaining family members. I would've loved to bought the farm for "regular" prices and preserved the farm, but it was laughable to try to convince my family when it could easily be sold for 4 times the price for future development. Fast forward to now. I have acreage but, like many places, could never get the hay yield to grow my own. I'm in the upper Willamette Valley, my prices for grass and alfalfa is $140/$200 ton, respectively. This is only a $10-20 jump and yes I think it's reasonable, but the most pressing problem has been availability. Local hay is my first choice, but the most reliable source is grown in central/eastside. So that obviously means that diesel prices and trucking costs start factoring in. My husband owns a heavy equipment/tractor repair business and knows firsthand how expensive the equipment is to replace and maintain. Basically, I don't know any of his clients that are making money hand over fist. Most are just trying to plug the leak. As far as cow hay and horse hay, one family I know used to feed their beef cattle best quality alfalfa I'd seen outside of dairies. I was told this year they're feeding straw:cry: and just trying to do with a good supplement. They live in the heart of hay growing country.

[eurofoal]

I have never understood the concept of " cow hay " and " horse hay " I've farmed in AZ. and Mn. all my life and we just have hay its fed to both our cattle and our horses. Same hay, same feilds, same way of putting it up. Why would I feed poor quality hay to either animal? Everyone I know with cattle have them to make money. You do not make money with livestock feeding poor quality food stuffs.


Around here... "cow hay" is a number 2 grade of hay-- one that is lesser quality for any number of reasons (mold, bleaching, dry, weedy), "horse hay" is a better quality hay with no mold or weeds (although there can be number 2 horse hay, also), and "dairy hay" is the very best hay money can buy... usually very leafy and rich. First cutting, which is usually too rich for horses, is the primo dairy hay, because, as someone pointed out, good feed is the way to the best milk production.

[JumpingPaints]

[QUOTE=MayS;2035951] Slaughter plants kill to meet the demand for meat in europe, correct? QUOTE]


oh no! only about 10% of slaughtered horses make the EU standards for people food...one carcass bruise (from injection or poor handling or over crowding) renders the entire carcass unedible for people to eat...

there is in fact a whole industy with specialty packing houses devoted horse meat for feeding exotic big cats and wolves in both zoos and private collections....

Tamara in TN
I think MayS was referring to horses slaughtered for human consumption at Dallas Crown, Beltex and Cavel, where there is no testing of carcasses and all go for human consumption, as opposed to the smaller butchers, packing houses and zoos. I didn't realize though that human consumption accounts for only 10% of horses slaughtered, and I'm wondering if you have a source for that info?

BTW, I loved your earlier post about hay farmers. I am lucky to live in a community where people have a real appreciation of the importance of farming (and we have a local farm marketing assoc). We have several excellent local hay farmers who mainly serve horse owners, and many of us pitch in where we can, which is usually collecting bales from the fields not only to get a better price, but also to reduce their manpower requirement.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=JumpingPaints;2037120][QUOTE=Tamara in TN;2036601]
I think MayS was referring to horses slaughtered for human consumption at Dallas Crown, Beltex and Cavel, where there is no testing of carcasses and all go for human consumption, as opposed to the smaller butchers, packing houses and zoos. I didn't realize though that human consumption accounts for only 10% of horses slaughtered, and I'm wondering if you have a source for that info?[QUOTE]

I can offer the testimony put before Congress under oath this summer...not all horses at the TX plants are killed and sent over seas....many are killed for zoos as well as killed on behalf of the rendering plants....

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:bFQ9UGGYnu0J:energycommerce.house.g ov/108/Hearings/07252006hearing1992/Koehler.pdf+rendering+plants+for+horses&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

in html format....I already knew about the zoos and circus animals using the horse meat from our elephant hay buyers....the rendering plant bit was a bit new to me as we have always heard they were seperate entities...they are not....

I can prob get the exact numbers in a few days....

Tamara in TN

[mairzeadoats]

Hey, Marizedoats... I'm making an effort to understand this point of view. Can you direct me to resources that document a big spike in abandonments, overflowing rescues, etc (excluding The Horse)?


First, my statement referred to the mid-late 80s and I didn't save the articles from back then. Those memories don't need help. I witnessed it and my horse was the 1 neglected/starved one that I could help.

Second, for the current situation I would refer you to this board, specifically the article in the OP.

I'm glad your rescue is doing so well. Others frequently post pleas here to purchase one horse or another because their rescues can't take on any more. Or post about those they weren't able to save.

Go read petabuse.com to see the abandonments and siezed horses.

Over on the breeder's forum, it wasn't long ago that someone rescued a weanling (actually a suckling) from the kill buyer for $65. That's where horse prices are. A friend of mine out west told me recently that she can pick up a serviceably sound riding horse at auction now for $65.

[mairzeadoats]

Wow. Thats nice. :no:

Oh puleeze. You're the one who mocked somebody who isn't experience the "thrive" in this economy.

[Tamara in TN]

I would argue that - come visit our farm. Their lives are very peaceful on our carefully managed pastures and the beef we produce is excellent - ask our hundreds of customers. If you know what you are doing you do not have to feed them an unnatural diet to "fatten them up" and put good meat on them, nor does it require living in confinement. All in all if I had to be a food animal I would really hope to wind up on our farm.


I am sure you do a fine job....however, I have delivered hay to more than one "organic" or "grass fed" farm were visitors were never allowed to be ....

to see conditions that made me sick...and sorry for the animals....no worming,no grass to be "grass fed" upon...starved thin ewes and cows nursing calves and no grain could be fed them...

hogs fed only on the spinklings of grain tossed in built up mounds of cow manure from the winter before....monstorus wicked practices...but "natural"...:( or so they claim....

as to the taste...well,we have freezer fulls of our own meat....I'll stick with grain fed :winkgrin: been there,done that....had to spit it out :lol: :lol:

Tamara in TN

[Alagirl]

I have never understood the concept of " cow hay " and " horse hay " I've farmed in AZ. and Mn. all my life and we just have hay its fed to both our cattle and our horses. Same hay, same feilds, same way of putting it up. Why would I feed poor quality hay to either animal? Everyone I know with cattle have them to make money. You do not make money with livestock feeding poor quality food stuffs.


True, but what a cow can stomach may send a horse into a humdinger of a colic! Back home some farmer bailed the grass on the shoulder of the road. Though not really bad, you know how people throw junk out of the window...my dad assured me, cows could deal with it just fine...but a horse ought never to be fed that stuff...it's the beauty of a cow: you can make tasty meat out of less than perfect feed! Only goats are better! ;)

[MSP]

Slaughter plants kill to meet the demand for meat in europe, correct?


oh no! only about 10% of slaughtered horses make the EU standards for people food...one carcass bruise (from injection or poor handling or over crowding) renders the entire carcass unedible for people to eat...

there is in fact a whole industy with specialty packing houses devoted horse meat for feeding exotic big cats and wolves in both zoos and private collections....

Tamara in TN


Certainly more than 10% of US horse meat is being exported for human consumption so if it isn’t going to the EU then where?

The three largest slaughter plants (only commercial ones I know of) export far more meat for human consumption than zoos.

"According to affidavits from company executives, Dallas Crown Inc. in
Kaufman exports 4,000 tons of horse meat for human consumption, and
sells 750 tons to U.S. zoos. Beltex Corp. in Fort Worth exports 5,000
tons and sells 1,000 tons to zoos. Cavel International Inc. in DeKalb,
Ill., exports 8,000 tons." (Gillman, Dallas Morning News, 3/14/06)

[philosoraptor]

Second, for the current situation I would refer you to this board, specifically the article in the OP.

But that article is from The Horse, and we've already established it may not be unbiased. I was hoping for other resources.

Wasn't trying to say you're wrong. Just looking for sources so I can research it further. :)

I'm glad your rescue is doing so well. Others frequently post pleas here to purchase one horse or another because their rescues can't take on any more. Or post about those they weren't able to save.

There are always some we can't save, especially with how fast the killbuyers can swoop them up. Some horses only have that one chance at once auction barm before they're forever lost into the slaughter system.

Go read petabuse.com to see the abandonments and siezed horses.

But there are abandoned and siezed animals of all species, not just horses. You'll find people doing this to dogs all the time... it's not a function of Kibbles-n-Bits prices. It's just that some people are uncaring @#$@#$ who value money over all else.

over on the breeder's forum, it wasn't long ago that someone rescued a weanling (actually a suckling) from the kill buyer for $65. That's where horse prices are. A friend of mine out west told me recently that she can pick up a serviceably sound riding horse at auction now for $65.

Which begs the question why are people still breeding, especially in the same large numbers as years ago?

Why aren't we bothered when people brag they have every mare on their farm pregnant?

Or the breeders who brag that they offer super-cheap foals to the public so that "the non rich can afford to buy a horse"?

The $65 horses are coming from somewhere. :no:

I think we agree there is a problem in the horse community, but I'm not seeing it as a "high hay price this winter" problem. I'm seeing it as more of a greed, poor planning, and lack of responsibility. It's the same mindset that gives us puppy mills (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/), and there are still people who buy their next puppy from the petshop (thereby supporting puppymills). I'm down the road from Lancaster County (http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/Lancaster.html) where soem of the Amish and others have realized they can make good money on their farm by mass-breeding purebred dogs.

I see a lot of similarities between the reckless overbreeding & throwing away of dogs and horses. I've got to wonder if the AAEP expanded their membership to include pets, would they next be testifying in front of Congress that Beltex should expand to include a dog slaughter line for their hungry Asian customers?

[county]

So tell me May S do you have an income because of greed? Or is it OK as long as that income is one you approve of?

[mairzeadoats]

But there are abandoned and siezed animals of all species, not just horses. You'll find people doing this to dogs all the time... it's not a function of Kibbles-n-Bits prices. It's just that some people are uncaring @#$@#$ who value money over all else.

Regardless of whether petabuse.com includes other animals, they've been tracking abandonment (as well as other abuses) for years so are a possible source of numbers. Have their reports of horse abandonment been on the rise over, say, the last 5 years?

We essentially agree, especially the part about so many people being uncaring, irresponsible $*#%$#s!

But I do believe that abandonment increases when the economy hits the skids. Back in the 80s, when the economy sucked big fat lemons, I witnessed it and read about it. I don't have hard stats or any data sources -- only my own memory...and my now 21 year old arab gelding that I rescued from serious neglect.

[Tamara in TN]

Certainly more than 10% of US horse meat is being exported for human consumption so if it isn’t going to the EU then where?

The three largest slaughter plants (only commercial ones I know of) export far more meat for human consumption than zoos.

"According to affidavits from company executives, Dallas Crown Inc. in
Kaufman exports 4,000 tons of horse meat for human consumption, and
sells 750 tons to U.S. zoos. Beltex Corp. in Fort Worth exports 5,000
tons and sells 1,000 tons to zoos. Cavel International Inc. in DeKalb,
Ill., exports 8,000 tons." (Gillman, Dallas Morning News, 3/14/06)

hello...

we are putting up the tree right now :) but here are some math numbers just off the top of my head....please double check them for me,as I suck at math :lol:

we are told 90,000 horses are slaughtered in <x> year....
we will assume 1000 pound animals so we have
90,000 x 1000 =90,000,000 pounds liveweight animals
90,000,000 x .60 (this will be a generous dressed carcass percentage)=
54,000,000 pounds dressed weight

54,000,000 /2000 (back to tons not pounds) = 27,000 tons of dressed carcasses

27,000 tons - 9000 (TX human only plant exports) = 18,000 tons remaining...(Cavel is now rebuilt and back online ?? I do not keep up w/these things?? but I will go to the time Cavel was in ashes )

Mexico imports in 2003 were 5509 tons (1706 from the usa) japan says 20% of it's totals 8835 are from the usa (1767) and russia as well imports...that leaves about 5,527 tons available for EU countries...we should also remember that there are number of companies allowed to ship horsemeat carcasses and pieces (Cavalier in VA being one) to any place they please...

we are often told that all the horses killed in these places are eaten by the EU...we forget that zoo,sanctuaries,private collectors who keep carnvories use this as well....as do rendering plants ((which is what I recall as a child the Cavalier Shipping Company buying in specific))...the numbers above translated back to live horse numbers would indicate about 36,000 horses make zoo or rendering plant carcasses....

the EU requires tests for trich and no hormones (which is why our beef imports have fallen so badly the feedlots here like Ral-grow in the heifers) as well as no meds and no carcass bruising....

while it may very well be that the perfect specimans wander in to the TX plants they are generally grown and fattened specifically for that trip with order buyers across the areas.....with EU regs in mind...and according to EU regs horses sent to them must be killed on floors cleaned after non EU horses are finished....they will NOT ship a horse to the EU w/o proof of no medication....they cannot...

mexico does not require these things and it was a mexican carcass that set off the trich alarms in belgium years ago....now,I'm for what ever a person believes in and makes them happy as long as it's kept civil and no body gets their barn burnt down:) ....but kinda like in reading the Good Book....make sure you have read the passsge in question and make up your own mind....:winkgrin:

back to the tree !!!

Tamara in TN