PA Dog laws: I was chased tonight

[c5rose]

After a great ride, I took my horse into the township-owned forest that borders one side of my property. I saw two dogs running loose through the thick brush (I recognized these two dogs since they've been on my property and my neighbor's property before), and the shape of a person, all about 75 feet in front of me. My horse came to a calm halt, at my request, when I saw the dogs. I yelled, "Will your dogs chase my horse?" No response. I yelled again, "Hello? Will your dogs chase my horse?" The dogs started barking and running towards us. The man yelled back, "Ya shouldn't have said nuttin!" My horse piveted and ran like hell back through the woods towards my barn.

I can't believe 1) I stayed on and; 2) I didn't get hit with the low branches everywhere.

I'm upset more at the fact that my horse will now shy away from this area of the woods than the fact that the dogs were loose. I don't want to cause any trouble - he had as much right to be there as I did, but shouldn't he have had complete control of his dogs? I keep thinking what if I fell and got hurt - would it be HIS responsibility?

Has anyone had experience with this sort of thing? I keep thinking back to a Judge Judy I saw. Someone's unleashed dog chased another person's dog at a public dog park. The person who owned the dog that chased got hammered, because JJ said the owner of a dog must have control over the animal at all times, i.e., the dog should have been leashed.

[ElonGrad1997]

I would call your local SPCA and ask about what measure to take in the future and what the local laws are. They are probably made on the township level. You could also call the local township and find out what you can do going forward. Do you know the dog's owner? Most likely, he/she will be at fault if you were to get hurt. I don't know of many places that do not have leash laws.

Alternatively, you could go the "attract flies with honey" bit and offer to let them bring the dogs -- LEASHED -- one at a time to your farm to get them acclimated to horses so future run-ins will be a non-issue. Are your horses used to dogs? It could be good for both parties if done in a controlled manner.

Good luck!

[bamboozled]

You could call the township about township-owned property and dogs running amok...in our township they are to be leashed no matter where. This is in Southeastern PA.

We do have our own little Township Dog Nazi that rats us out to Officer Friendly on her way to work as she drives past the Township Park. :lol:

However, if I told my township I was RIDING A HORSE on township-owned property and dogs were loose....they'd probably get their undies in a major bunch over the horse thing and not the dogs. And I would not be able to ride in those nice woods again....they may even send over the Dog Nazi for a drive-by sighting! :lol:

I would not stir the pot and try to work thru it. Dogs will come up again and it's best to desensitize if at all possible.

[LuvLongEars]

He needs to use a shock collar and train his dogs not to chase livestock of any kind, ever, or face the fact that someone will one day put a bullet in his dogs.

[ImJumpin]

And for the future, it is best not to run away from running dogs if possible (ie if your horse woudln't freak and would stand quitely) while the owner regains control. Running from a dog further escalates their prey drive and makes them keep coming at you. You should stand quietly and not look directly at the dog. Same goes if you were on foot.

[ElonGrad1997]

And for the future, it is best not to run away from running dogs if possible (ie if your horse woudln't freak and would stand quitely) while the owner regains control. Running from a dog further escalates their prey drive and makes them keep coming at you. You should stand quietly and not look directly at the dog. Same goes if you were on foot.

I get the impression that the OP didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Seems like her equine friend made the decision for her.

But I agree with bamboozled that the horses should be desensitized. I'm also in SE PA.

[GoForAGallop]

Uh oh...your horse bolts from dogs? That's a major no-no in my book. Yes, they can be scary...but it's not like they're friggen zebras. Most farms have at least a couple dogs, and I'm betting that most of those dogs bark and occasionally growl, and run.

I've had dogs run towards me before, who've been friendly and loose. My horse stood stock still while the owner gathered up the dogs. Our dogs have gotten loose around him before, and he'll let them run through his legs, etc, and not bat an eyelash. They don't exactly make him comfortable, but he's not going anywhere.

Different stories when the dogs are growling...he'll stand, but he's got that leg cocked. I doubt he'd actually kick, though, unless someone bit him. In which case I'd be off to find the owner to hand him the vet bill.

[llsc]

The best way to deal with dogs chasing you is to trot straight at them. I've never met a dog that wouldn't turn and run with his tail between his legs. Where I live no one has their dogs chained up. They are all loose and running free, but after the first time I meet them and run after them, they all stay in their yards and bark from a safe distance. Once in a while one of them will decide to be brave and come after the horse once we are past and the horses back is to the dog, but I just turn quickly and chase them back into their yard and they give up the whole idea.

[OakesBrae]

Did you ever have a normally dog-friendly horse turn tail and run? There was a pack of dogs at a nearby farm where I used to board that would scare the bajeezus out of my horse who was accustomed to dogs. I don't know what it was about THOSE particular dogs, but whatever it was...it certainly did NOT make her happy.

I don't know what the dog laws are in your part of PA. Glad you're both okay.

[libgrrl]

We have horses and dogs.

The horses are two 30 year-old biddies that aren't afraida NUTHIN!

When I'm walking shelter dogs, I generally take them past the paddock with the mares. 99% of the time, the mares want to visit and the dogs want to get *far away* from the *huge killer* beasts!

[PonyHunterz]

I've been chased by dogs while riding and it's no fun. Thank goodness I stayed on and no one got hurt. :eek:
My friend wasn't so lucky, she was thrown and suffered serious injuries.:mad:

[colleent]

in PA dogs are NOT TO RUN AT LARGE meaning they are not to be loose and off their own property, they MUST have tags and a collar. next time i'd get off, hold the reins and hit the dogs with a big stick. then you'll see the owner get his damn dogs. or bring a paintball gun.

[Equibrit]

Go buy a hunting whip and learn how to use it!

[Trixie]

My horses are fine with dogs in nearly any capacity except running AT them barking. I can see how that would be freaky.

Apparently the trot straight at them thing does work... still, it's probably not your first reaction, nor is it even feasible if your horse is ready to get the heck out of there.

I'm lucky to have a very sane dog. Many others aren't quite so fortune - so they should put them on a LEASH and control them properly.

[Gandolph58]

I did not read all the replies, but I am going through something similar in PA right now. For the last 6-7 weeks we have two dogs that have been chasing our horses in the pasture and they have even come into the barn!!!! The county dog warden is the person we have to deal with. He said that we have to get a picture of the dogs in the act before he can do anything about it.
It’s so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Go buy a hunting whip and learn how to use it!Yep! Works like a charm - Just make sure you desensitize your horse ;-)

[kellyb]

But I agree with bamboozled that the horses should be desensitized. I'm also in SE PA.

I agree with this too - but having the horse work around dogs is still a very different situation than being chased while the dogs are going nuts. Besides horses that foxhunt with hounds, I think a lot of horses are going to be heading to the barn at a gallop instead of sticking around to see what happens next.

[Across Sicily]

Yeargh, dogs! Where I live, there are a number of them running around when they're supposed to be chained up. I often ride on public land. There is a dirt road directly across from my house that goes in a circle that I will often trot on. The area around this road is being developed a little, and there is a new house there with some very aggressive dogs that the owner refuses to leash. (We've had the police out i think five times now?) One of them actually attacked our small dog while my mother was walking on this road. My mom picked up our dog after she started squealing in pain and the dog proceeded to attack HER and chased her all the way back to our house, where I was, and she grabbed a log off our stack and lobbed it at the dog which got it away long enough for her to get inside. she was pretty pissed.

I rode recently along that road, didn't even think about it and the dog came flying out at my mare and I. Now I love this mare and would protect her with my life so of course I get off and the dog is all growly and rude. I have my training whip with me, which is long and snappy and HURTS if you whack something hard enough with it, so I took this whip and laid it HARD across this dog's back. He was not pleased but did not leave so I did it several more times before he started crying and took off. I felt bad, but not THAT bad. Dog won't bother me now. He made a move the next time we went past but I got off and had the whip at the ready and he decided it would be best not to do anything about it.

I do not train my horses to be "good" around dogs, IMO they need to protect themselves because you never know when the dog is going to be friendly or hostile. Better safe than sorry. I'd rather my horse kick the dog's ass or at least warn it away before it got too close or caused damage. Proactive, not reactive.

whips are good things to have.

[goeslikestink]

right the thing is hes seems to me like a neighbour so is entiltled to use hs bit of woods or woods as he choses within reason

and reason enough for you both to be there at will

what you dont want is a conflict as this can be a problem for years

if you was me and the horse is afriad of dogs when out
and more likely to be his

then go knock on his dooor and see if a compamise can be set up
either have a chat over a cuppa and express your concerns or invite him over for a neighbourly meeting as an invite to dinner

then at dinner you express your problem asn ask if theres anyway
he can help you over come your horses fears with dogs in general

if he has a aheart and nice bloke he wills urgest his own dogs as you asking his advice -- nothing like putting a man at top for his advice
when in truth you playing a game of foiled but got the results you want

[Kaydence]

The best way to deal with dogs chasing you is to trot straight at them. I've never met a dog that wouldn't turn and run with his tail between his legs. Where I live no one has their dogs chained up. They are all loose and running free, but after the first time I meet them and run after them, they all stay in their yards and bark from a safe distance. Once in a while one of them will decide to be brave and come after the horse once we are past and the horses back is to the dog, but I just turn quickly and chase them back into their yard and they give up the whole idea.

Yup, most of my horses think that chasing the dogs is kinda fun and to date I haven't had a dog not react by heading home. Last summer I had a dog owner come out and ask me if I'd mind helping him with his dog who would behave when the owner could watch him but would sneak out to chase horses when the owner slipped inside the house. I promised that owner that I'd chase his dog any opportunity I got. The dog didn't bother trying to chase my horse anymore after the second time I rode by. :)

[goeslikestink]

in previous psot i was trying to be diplomatic

but i dont beleive you a strong rider those that said drive the horse forawrd are correct

you say you upset by horse shying -- but to get over the shy
with dogs then the confidence has to come from on top ie you

a horse will take a mile if you let them this could be anything from a dog to a bit of paper blown outwards twards you and your horse

the thing is to say its a nothing -- and conflict that nothing so the horse see it as anothing --not bothered
the more you bother the more your horse loses it -- spins turns and rin backwards or bolt back to where he came from thats a no no

so if it was in at taht time -- 1st thing i owuld havent have said anything
until the person was in sight and see if he behaved in a communtic manner of calling his dogs back to him and or putting them on a lead as a common curisty gesture to him it means hes in control of obediant dogs which gives him the respect to which you nod and say thanks

but you may have provked the situation becuase a you shouted must have done as he was 75 ft away -- and didnt say please

not saying you did provoke -- but please goes along way its one of there words thats heard

as to your situation now --more than likely the guy wont adhere to your needs when out riding so you have to over come that
and simplest way is to carry on if met them in the woods again strong leg
and drive the little horse past them let her/him know they dont bother you so want bother her

i have 5 dogs in our woods that come at you from a property that the fence line meets wellwithin the woods and if you pass and dogs out they escape and chased you --we just ride thorugh them old man fogi gives a warning by swishing his tail you get to close to my legs and you will have it --as in a kick and he dont miss---

if people are out and have there dogs and dont adhere to the golden of of collection or being under control then i do warn them loss dog loss kick
normal they get the message

but you cant let dog rule you or what you do with your horse
outside or in-- a dog is imtimadaited by the horse becuase they bigger hence the chase and yappying -- but a good dog also knowns that it can get hurt and wont chase-- only unruly dogs chase

but you have far better aminition -- when on top -think drive forward pass it --as a nothing then she wont spook at them and comes ascustome to them

[carolprudm]

I did not read all the replies, but I am going through something similar in PA right now. For the last 6-7 weeks we have two dogs that have been chasing our horses in the pasture and they have even come into the barn!!!! The county dog warden is the person we have to deal with. He said that we have to get a picture of the dogs in the act before he can do anything about it.
It’s so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, I dealt with the same thing last year. Getting AC to do anything is pretty much useless. I finally got my neighbors attention by letting my flock of goats on their property, but the last time the dog chased my horses my mare lost her foal a few hours later. I couldn't prove anything, of course. :cry:
However I could have envoked the 3 S law. Here in VA if a dog is chasing your livestock you have the right to shoot it.

Luckily the neighbors sold their house and I really like the people who bought it.:) :) :) :) :)

[redponyrider]

Sorry, but in this incident I think your animal was the one that was at fault. Dogs are a fact of life. Horses should be quite used to their antics, and if not, they need to learn. It doesn't even sound like the dogs WERE chasing you-- just watch-dog-barking and coming to see what the strange human is doing in "their" woods-- they didn't pursue you, or bite at your horse, or anything. Really no horse should BOLT when what is obviously a dog (barking) runs out. A spook in surprise, sure, but a bolt?
If a deer jumped out of the bushes and your horse bolted, you'd blame your horse wouldn't you? same thing here.

[3fatponies]

I have had the most luck with pesky dogs by stopping my horse, facing them and using the "bad dog" voice. That's the meanest, growliest voice you can produce while saying "NO! GET! NO!" When they pause in confusion or back off, I soften my voice and tell them, "good dog." I have never had a dog that ignored it--unless they are feral, they do understand the "step forward, get verbal correction; step back, get verbal reward" method. Plus, I think it pulls the focus from the horse to you, and makes it clear that a confident human is supervising, which is something that most dogs respond to.

While I am sure that there are plenty of places where the dogs bothering horses are dangerous, the ones I run into are people's pets. They are dogs who are doing their job by warning that gigantic, smelly thing to stay away from their territory, and generally, even the most fearsome looking is smart enough to stand back a bit while doing it. :lol:

[colleent]

Gandolf you have the right to shoot those dogs. so if they come chasing your horses again, go shoot them.

[colleent]

Sorry, but in this incident I think your animal was the one that was at fault. Dogs are a fact of life. Horses should be quite used to their antics, and if not, they need to learn. It doesn't even sound like the dogs WERE chasing you-- just watch-dog-barking and coming to see what the strange human is doing in "their" woods-- they didn't pursue you, or bite at your horse, or anything. Really no horse should BOLT when what is obviously a dog (barking) runs out. A spook in surprise, sure, but a bolt?
If a deer jumped out of the bushes and your horse bolted, you'd blame your horse wouldn't you? same thing here.

i totally disagree. in PA a loose dog is illegal. it is NOT a FACT OF LIFE. when dogs come growling and snarling at you and your horse spooks, that is what is natural. i sure as hell would not want one of those dogs grabbing the tendons of my horses leg. Rider did what she had to do.

[Ride'emCO]

I'm with Equibrit - I would take this as a training opportunity to 1. teach my horse not to bolt from dogs, and 2. teach my horse to stand when I crack a whip. Then I'd use our new knowledge to the best possible advantage. :yes:

[Anne FS]

Oh for heaven's sake. The dogs weren't "growling and snarling."

And this is totally different than loose dogs running on your property.

I see both sides of this one. The OP admits the dogs had every right to be there. Both sides are at fault in this one.

The horse should not have bolted at the sight of two barking dogs. The dogs should've been under voice control of the owner. Obviously here we have two humans whose animals both need training/desensitizing to the other. Since that's the case it's a damn shame that the OP says if she falls it's HIS fault!!

I agree with those who've said:

-learn how to use a hunting whip
-train your horse
-be nice to dog owners - animal people are in this TOGETHER and have to stick TOGETHER. There are enough people out there who want ALL animals banned from using the woods.

The OP said township-owned land, not state-owned, so I don't know what the deal is there, but in PA it's the hunters, most of whom use dogs for bird and small-game hunting, who PAID for the land with their hunting fees to begin with, and it riles me no end when people want them and their dogs off the land. It's because of those people we even have the land in the first place and we owe them a HUGE thank you and support and need to be TOGETHER with them.

I am not a hunter, btw, but I know who pays for the undeveloped land in PA.

I certainly too would be mad as h*** if someone's dogs rushed me and my horse and I would not hesitate to run at them - HARD - and/or use a hunting whip in self defense.

[3fatponies]

Gandolf you have the right to shoot those dogs. so if they come chasing your horses again, go shoot them.

While I agree with this recommendation if certain conditions are met (ie. the dogs trespass on YOUR property to bother your horses), encouraging someone to blast away a dog or two in the company of their owner on "public" land is not the answer. In fact, should the OP chose to pursue this option, she may be in violation of the law, exposing herself to both civil and criminal liability.

Guns are not for solving conflict in public places, and if you chose to use them like that, you damage the image and future rights of all of us who are law-abiding, responsible gun owners.

[Anne FS]

I have had the most luck with pesky dogs by stopping my horse, facing them and using the "bad dog" voice. That's the meanest, growliest voice you can produce while saying "NO! GET! NO!" When they pause in confusion or back off, I soften my voice and tell them, "good dog."

This is great. Protecting yourself and your horse, and helping the dogs learn appropriate behavior, too! Really good.

Also, praising the dog could soften angry/frightened dog owners. Your "bad dog" voice is also for the dog's protection, too, lest he get bit and/or trampled. I know this of course but sometimes owners are slow to appreciate it. Correcting someone's dog is like correcting their kid - NOT well received! but your way's the best way. If it doesn't work, then you can escalate to other methods necessary to protect you and your horse (and the dogs long-term).

[3fatponies]

Anne FS,

I have done this in front of owners, and never had one angry about it. Rather, they are relieved that the situation isn't escalating, and the time it gives them to hustle over and grab the dog if they are concerned. Compared to some of the other options, such as striking the dog or running, I think this is worth the effort to try. You can always escalate your response if it doesn't work, but once you strike the dog or let the horse bolt, things have a great chance of becoming ugly quickly.

I would not say I would never strike the dog, but there is the issue of provocation: what happens if you strike the dog to drive it off and provoke an aggressive reaction in defense? That dog, being a predator in a heightened state of arousal, may redirect at you or your horse and if you are not prepared for that possibility, you can congratuate yourself for making the situation that much more dangerous. Better you put your energy into learning canine body language and behavioral patterns so that it does not get to that point. Unless it's absolutely necessary, I wouldn't risk hitting the dog, but that's just my $.02. :)

[CHS]

It sounds to me like the dog owner and OP were in the wrong here. Yes it is illegal and irresponsible to let the dogs run at large, but the horse owner wasn't in control of her animal either.
Both parties lost control of their animals. Both are at fault.
Anyone who brings ANY animal out on public property needs to be in control of that animal at all times. If you can't be in total control of that animal for whatever reason it is YOUR fault.

[katarine]

What CHS said- the laws don't matter in the moment. Safety and horsemanship skills- that's what counts.

A horse who can't handle a few loose, silly dogs in the woods- does not need to be in the woods alone. Had it been a deer, or wild pigs, lol, or whatever- the commotion may upset him and cause him to try to flee.

Work on learning how to really ride your horse, no matter what crosses your path.

[3fatponies]

Work on learning how to really ride your horse, no matter what crosses your path.

Wonderful advice!! :D

[colleent]

While I agree with this recommendation if certain conditions are met (ie. the dogs trespass on YOUR property to bother your horses), encouraging someone to blast away a dog or two in the company of their owner on "public" land is not the answer. In fact, should the OP chose to pursue this option, she may be in violation of the law, exposing herself to both civil and criminal liability.

Guns are not for solving conflict in public places, and if you chose to use them like that, you damage the image and future rights of all of us who are law-abiding, responsible gun owners.


please read carefully. i was speaking to Gandolf who 's horses were being chased in her pastures. on HER property.

[katarine]

please read carefully. i was speaking to Gandolf who 's horses were being chased in her pastures. on HER property.

AGREED- those dogs need a dose of rocksalt in their bee-hinds, if not worse.

[3fatponies]

please read carefully. i was speaking to Gandolf who 's horses were being chased in her pastures. on HER property.

Ah! My apologies. :yes:

[Equibrit]

Dogs understand that if you cause them some pain, you MEAN it, and they back off and REMEMBER. All it takes is one swift hard lesson. (watch how dogs interact to verify this theory) All you get with all the "good dog" and "bad dog" stuff is a dog who will take advantage of NOT having been disciplined.

The horse on the other hand just needs a confident rider who is IN CHARGE.

[3fatponies]

Dogs understand that if you cause them some pain, you MEAN it, and they back off and REMEMBER. All it takes is one swift hard lesson. (watch how dogs interact to verify this theory) All you get with all the "good dog" and "bad dog" stuff is a dog who will take advantage of NOT having been disciplined.


How does the dog take advantage of that? If the dog responds to a voice command by producing the desired response (backing up, moving away, etc.), how does that constitute it taking advantage? If I get off my horse and hit it with a hunting whip for barking at me, how is that a better approach than verbally engaging the dog and creating a situation where the dog is rewarded for the right behavior, not just punished for the wrong one?

I don't disagree with your approach in some circumstances, but my point is that anyone physically correcting a dog they do not know needs to be prepared for a potentially dangerous outcome. It may only happen in one out of hundred cases, but they need to be aware that it's certainly possible. :)

[Equibrit]

If I get off my horse and hit it with a hunting whip for barking at me, how is that a better approach than verbally engaging the dog and creating a situation where the dog is rewarded for the right behavior, not just punished for the wrong one?


!. You would not get off your horse and put yourself in any further jeopardy.
2. YOU do not need to "engage" with somebody else's dog.
3. He will not take advantage the NEXT time he is tempted to repeat this behaviour.
4. You are letting him know that what he attempted to do is NOT in his best interests. (that is how we learn that fire is hot)
5. You are not teaching him to bark and get rewarded.

[3fatponies]

Okay, so this makes more sense to me now, but I am still not sure this is a wise course of action for the general public. If I hit the dog and it redirects, then the only target is my horse.

And what happens if the owner sees this behavior? Might he or she be a bigger threat than the dog at that point? What about if something happens? Legally, a dog can be excused for biting or attacking if provocation is shown (even with humans), and striking the dog would be considered provocation. So if the dog tears up my horse because I struck it with a hunting whip for barking and approaching, then I can't expect any help from the owner with the vet bills, can I? At the very least, I can expect an attorney will need to be involved, and even then, I may not get what I want.

Again, I am not saying this is not the right approach in certain circumstances, but depending on the outcome, it could be a risky one, that's all. :)

[colleent]

LEGALLY- the dog owner should not have his dogs running at large. that is a law in PA. i would be HAPPY for the owner to see me have to get off my horse and give it to his dogs. maybe then he'll take better care to keep his dogs confined.

[3fatponies]

ColleenT,

is that true for hunting dogs as well?

[colleent]

all dogs must be in control at all times. if the owner can't call his dog and have it come, then it needs to be leashed.

[Anne FS]

Wait, wait, wait. DO NOT get off your horse. A hunting whip is not a little riding crop. You use it from horseback, in self defense. You're much safer staying aboard.

A hunting whip is a good-sized heavy stick with a long thong on the end. It takes PRACTICE to use it right without hitting yourself or your horse. When snapped properly it sounds LOUD, like a rifle shot. Your horse needs to be used to the sound before you go popping it off. We're not saying climb off your horse and hit a dog with a riding crop. That's crazy. You need to stay mounted. As to a proper hunting whip, the sound alone is amazingly effective but I'm sure it could be used to strike if needed. But you need to PRACTICE, a lot, first.

And make sure you make it abundantly clear that you are doing this because you are fearful of grievously bodily harm to yourself and your horse. Put the onus on THEM for attacking YOU.

[3fatponies]

Usually hunting dogs have exemption from leash laws during the season, which is why I was asking. Could these have been hunting dogs? Oops, just realized need to address that to OP, not you. My apologies!

[Anne FS]

LEGALLY- the dog owner should not have his dogs running at large. that is a law in PA. i would be HAPPY for the owner to see me have to get off my horse and give it to his dogs. maybe then he'll take better care to keep his dogs confined.

Colleent, dogs in training areas or in hunting areas do not have to be leashed - check your ordinances. If my dogs are legally out with me being trained and you get off your horse and "give it to" my dogs: missy, you are in one big ol' heap of trouble, and I do mean BIG trouble.

If one of my dogs chases your horse, I'll help you flog him, but otherwise, touch my dog and it's the last thing you'll touch.

Again, DON'T get off your horse. Even a friendly dog may attack if a total stranger dismounts and comes after him!

So there you are, on the ground, horse jumping around, trying to hold the horse and beat a dog? Oh, yeah, that'll work. Then the horse gets away and runs (who can blame him, with the yelling and the hitting) and now you're on foot, with a strange dog or dogs that are now probably hostile to you if you haven't been able to intimidate them, and you're alone on foot with their owner. Uh, not good. Stay on!

[3fatponies]

If my dogs are legally out with me being trained and you get off your horse and "give it to" my dogs: missy, you are in one big ol' heap of trouble, and I do mean BIG trouble.

If one of my dogs chases your horse, I'll help you flog him, but otherwise, touch my dog and it's the last thing you'll touch.

That's kind of the reaction I was thinking might occur if the owner sees you hitting his dog. Anne, I'm with you--hit my dog because you "think" it's a threat for barking, and don't worry about the dog--worry about the owner! :winkgrin: :lol:

[colleent]

Colleent, dogs in training areas or in hunting areas do not have to be leashed - check your ordinances. If my dogs are legally out with me being trained and you get off your horse and "give it to" my dogs: missy, you are in one big ol' heap of trouble, and I do mean BIG trouble.

If one of my dogs chases your horse, I'll help you flog him, but otherwise, touch my dog and it's the last thing you'll touch.

Well first of all i would not be riding where people hunt or target practice, and if your dog came after my horse, i would do whatever i could do get it away from my horse, and if that meant beating it, then so be it. If you think i cannot hold the reins of my horse while i beat a dog off, you're wrong.

And i read the original post again. no mention of HUNTING at all. the OP said the dogs had been seen before on her neighbors property as well.

[Anne FS]

You're right; as I said, if my dog came after your horse, I'd help you beat it.

But as in the OP, the dogs saw the horse and started barking. That, although unacceptable to me, is no excuse for a rider to dismount and give it to my dogs. If I was the dog owner, I'd get my dogs under control and apologize to the rider. If I was the rider, I'd try my best to be kind and civil to the dog owner so as to keep both of us, who are obviously animal lovers, on the same team forever more, and hopefully with a little learning end up happily waving to one another or chatting whenever we saw each other in the future. Animal people need to stick together and not automatically become antagonists. So I think we're really both on the same page.

In the OP, sounds like the horse made the decision for the rider and that was that.

[goeslikestink]

dont ever get of the horse --- ever if you meet dog or anything else one is the horse wins two could lose it as it could pull you horses are strongest when you on the ground but your are strongest on top --

doesnt matter what in your way what you past birds out of bushes that shoot out and flap plastic bags rubiish wild animals dogs this is all a fact of life including buses tractors big vechilces small vechiles whatever

you have to ride forward and past what ever the object

but you got to be confident and strong on top and past as if a nothing then horse says ok mum ---

[colleent]

yes, and the dogs came Running at her while barking.

But i think the owner of the dogs is a non-hunter and therefore in the wrong. since his dogs had been loose on her property in the past and also her neighbor's property, i would call the warden and see what could be done to ensure the man keeps his dogs under control.

[Anne FS]

Well first of all i would not be riding where people hunt or target practice,

To clarify - I'm not saying they were hunting. But consider this: in Illinois what we in PA call State Game Lands, they call Forest Preserve (I used to live in IL). You can use Forest Preserve land for dog training all year round - which means dogs are allowed to be off leash on Forest Preserve land, so if you're riding there, you can certainly come across legally unleashed dogs even if it's not hunting season, and because it's designated "dog training" the dogs can be suburban pet yappy dogs and not necessarily hunting dogs (ime, hunting dogs usually are not a problem around horses: hounds are used to them, and so are bird dogs; it's the pet people who cause the problems). So people let their dogs have a run, and if asked, can always say they're 'training.'

[macmtn]

I did not read all the replies, but I am going through something similar in PA right now. For the last 6-7 weeks we have two dogs that have been chasing our horses in the pasture and they have even come into the barn!!!! The county dog warden is the person we have to deal with. He said that we have to get a picture of the dogs in the act before he can do anything about it.
It’s so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Get yourself a paintball gun. Send them home multicolored...see if the owner notices. If not the next step imho is a Real gun. Shoot. shovel. shutup. Sad for the dogs:no: they are not really the root problem. Had one in my Arabian's pasture-dog got into my horse pasture, chasing him. Horse has a really Fast kick.:eek: Do Not chase my horse! Sad-dog brains all over the ground. No More Problem. If he had actually drawn horse blood-the end result would have been the same but I would have shot him.:mad:

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

I'm sorry you had a scary experience. I posted not long ago asking for everyone's method for dealing with threatening dogs while out hacking.

Here's one thing we have learned since then: getting off and beating the dogs will probably make you feel lots better but may have dire consequences. There's a pack down the road from my former boarding stable, who find it funny to attack passing horses with children on them. The owners are well aware of the fact and do nothing. Animal control and the police have been called, as it is illegal to have dogs uncontrolled off one's property harassing people. They have visited the owners, but the pack is still there.

One day, the pack attacked two girls and their horses, opening a four inch gash in the flank of one horse and pulling tail hairs out of the other. A barn dog who'd accompanied the girls attacked the pack and began getting the worst of it. So one of the girls dismounted and laid into the pack with her whip. Fair enough, I'd say.

Only the owners waited until the next time they saw the barn dog near the road and ran him over with their truck, killing him.:(

So I guess I'd recommend working on your horse to bombproof him to dogs. I'd start with friendly quiet ones, move on to friendly enthusiastic ones and then take on the more aggressive types. I've heard from lots of people that teaching your horse to move towards the dogs will give him lots of confidence, because the dogs will give ground and we all know that in horse, s/he who moves feet first loses.

That's my plan, anyway. Glad you're both ok.

[goeslikestink]

yeah i know but she really doesnt want to cause a conflict as she has to live there with her horses best way is to invite him over for achat and dinner maybe and come up with a compremise a solution other wisae it becomes neighbours at hell and you have to live with it

all the sress and attitude best way have a cuppa and see if you can foil man into making him beleive its his idea --- then you on a win win

[bamboozled]

To go back to the OP....the guy with the dogs is a yahoo. He will always be a yahoo.

She either stops riding in these woods with yahoo man and the yahoo dogs (not fair).

OR...she rides out often with a calm buddy and tries to desensensitize her horse to yahoo man and yahoo dogs.

If yahoo dogs come onto her property....well, that's another thread.

[Equibrit]

Whatever your remedy may be - the fact that remains is this. The OP was not "chased" - she allowed herself to get carted by her horse. Had they stood their ground and not panicked, there would not now be a problem that warrants remedial training.

[goeslikestink]

echo equitbrit -- sorry its true

[citydog]

and if that meant beating it, then so be it.


Depending on the dog (let alone the owner ;) ) this could be remarkably ill-advised. Be prepared for extensive plastic surgery.

Stay on the horse and train your horse to deal with dogs. You'll never be able to control other people's actions (regardless of the laws), you'll never be able to wholly control the environment, all you can do is train and desensitize your own horse as much as possible.

[colleent]

Whatever your remedy may be - the fact that remains is this. The OP was not "chased" - she allowed herself to get carted by her horse. Had they stood their ground and not panicked, there would not now be a problem that warrants remedial training.

dogs barking and running at you is NOT being chased? then what IS?

[colleent]

Depending on the dog (let alone the owner ;) ) this could be remarkably ill-advised. Be prepared for extensive plastic surgery.

Stay on the horse and train your horse to deal with dogs. You'll never be able to control other people's actions (regardless of the laws), you'll never be able to wholly control the environment, all you can do is train and desensitize your own horse as much as possible.

as i stated, if my horse is in danger, i'll do whatever i can to keep him safe.

[3fatponies]

Whatever your remedy may be - the fact that remains is this. The OP was not "chased" - she allowed herself to get carted by her horse. Had they stood their ground and not panicked, there would not now be a problem that warrants remedial training.

Excellent point, as it pretty much sums it all up. :)

[Synrgystyk]

dogs barking and running at you is NOT being chased? then what IS?

Dogs bark and run all the time, regardless of whether they're "chasing" something. The dogs are only chasing if the quarry is running. That isn't to say that dogs won't bark/run in hopes of provoking a chase, but they can't chase something that isn't moving.

According to the OP (just reread it), the horse pivoted and bolted when the dogs started coming towards it. The poster doesn't say anything about the dogs actually chasing her once the horse took off, just that the dogs ran towards her and (it seems) the noise spooked her horse.

In the OP's situation *as described* I'd be getting after my horse for misbehaving (the bolting -- spooking at something crashing towards you in the woods is ok, but taking off and ignoring me isn't) and using the situation as a training opportunity. It's normal and an instinctive reaction for any horse to spook when a noisy "something" (deer, dog, bunny, person) approaches through the woods. But the horse needs to learn to listen to the rider and not continue the spook with "bolt," "buck," or something equally hazardous.

The first time my horse and I met up with barking, opportunistic (opportunistic = they'd probably have enjoyed a chase if we ran) dogs, I taught him that chasing dogs makes them back off. (His initial reaction was of the spin/run variety but he was only able to complete the initial "spin" and, in his defense, he was very green and it was our first trail ride by ourselves.) Nowadays, apparently an overturned kiddie pool in the middle of a lawn is far scarier than anything crashing towards him through the woods. :rolleyes:

Should the local yokel have had his dogs leashed? Possibly, depending on area-specific laws. Should they have been under better control? Probably (but the OP didn't say that he wasn't able to control them, just that they ran towards her while barking -- a normal dog behavior). But trail riding, by its very nature, is an activity full of "unknowns" and if we're going to ride on trails we need to have the knowledge, skills, and tools to deal with our horses' reactions to "unknowns."

Lorree

[DieBlaueReiterin]

i think the guy was totally in the wrong. for what it's worth, the law in PA *IS* that you can shoot loose dogs if they come at you. i went thru a very similar situation a couple weeks ago with a very green young pony and a rider ended up getting caught in a fence (this was on our own property, mind you). if i'd had a gun, i would've killed the dogs. i'm considering getting a gun license for just this reason. dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no?? then why on earth is it ok for them to bark and run at people on horseback??? that is complete nonsense. if your dogs are so badly behaved that they run and bark at anything that moves, you have a serious problem, and they should NOT be loose. what a bunch of bull. :mad:

[DieBlaueReiterin]

i think the guy was totally in the wrong. for what it's worth, the law in PA *IS* that you can shoot loose dogs if they come at you. i went thru a very similar situation a couple weeks ago with a very green young pony and a rider ended up getting caught in a fence (this was on our own property, mind you). if i'd had a gun, i would've killed the dogs. i'm considering getting a gun license for just this reason. dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no?? then why on earth is it ok for them to bark and run at people on horseback??? that is complete nonsense. if your dogs are so badly behaved that they run and bark at anything that moves, you have a serious problem, and they should NOT be loose. what a bunch of bull. :mad:

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

dogs barking and running at animals is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR. is it normal/okay for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street, or hiking thru the woods? no??

Well, yeah, actually around here it's pretty much par for the course.:yes:

No one here keeps their dogs fenced, and yes, I think it's pretty much normal behavior for a dog to run and bark at an animal (bipedal or quadrupedal) approaching its territory. Around here, most of the farmers see this as a good thing and don't discourage the behavior.

IME, dogs are a lot like cops. :winkgrin: Act like you're supposed to be there and know what you're doing, and they'll leave you alone. Act scared or suspicious and you have their full and undivided attention.:lol:

I have a few canine-american neighbors who still run alongside barking at me - but that's all they do. So I just keep walking. Most of 'em fall in and go for a walk with me, tails wagging and big happy grins on their faces. Which kind of cheeses off some of their owners.;)

I've had one dog, a part of the pack I mentioned earlier, leap up and snap at my horse's nose. I'll admit, had I been alone, I'd have dismounted and done my best to kick the attitude out of him, because he threatened my horse and I was mad. As it was, I was with too many other people, one of whom would've had to deal with the repercussions from the dog's owner (who wouldn't have faced me down but would have found some sneaky way to get revenge on my friend). So I kept going. My horse didn't even look like he noticed.:cool: In retrospect, that was probably the best way to handle it.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

IME, dogs are a lot like cops. :winkgrin: Act like you're supposed to be there and know what you're doing, and they'll leave you alone. Act scared or suspicious and you have their full and undivided attention.:lol:



i dunno how true that is. i've been chased by dogs for no apparent reason, on my own street, where i def wasn't acting suspicious or scared, just minding my own business. that's not ok. i wouldn't let my animals run around chasing people. there are leash laws for a reason.

and talk about timely-i just picked up a local newspaper someone left sitting over here and there's a big article on the front page:

TRESPASSING HUNTER SHOT MY DOG, SAYS LOCAL WOMAN

A romp in the woods turned deadly for a beloved family pet tuesday afternoon. 3 hunters shot max, a 2yo rottweiler, near his family's barn just off rte. 209 east of brodheadsville.

owner tory warner heard a shot followed by a yelp from her dog. two more shots were fired as she ran up the dirt road from the barn. warner found the dog bloodied but still breathing in the middle of the road. she saw the hunters heading for their vehicles.

"i went chasing after them. i was screaming at them," said warner, still distraught over the shooting.

max was so badly injured-shot in the head, shoulder and stomach-that he was euthanized at brodheadsville vet clinic.

the shooting is a grim warning for families who let pets roam in the woods. *STATE POLICE TOLD WARNER THEY WILL NOT FILE CHARGES BECAUSE THE DOG WAS NOT TIED.*

warner said max was kept leashed unless she was outside with him.

neighbor rob sawada, who lives next to warner's property, said max was a friendly dog who would run up the hill to play with sawada's 3 children. "he was always welcome," sawada said thursday. "he wasn't a mean dog."

*warner said the hunters told her they didn't know whether max was going to bite them or lick them.* "I think what they're saying is a bunch of crap," said sawada. "i guess some hunters think if there's a dog in the area and it's chasing their deer-shoot it."

sawada said the hunters were on his property when the shooting occurred. the land is posted with yellow signs, and sawada expects hungers to ask for permission to venture there. "there won't be anymore hunting [here]. not even people i know," he said.

warner, wearing a blaze orange coat, said she'll keep vigil at her barn because she fears for the safety of her other animals: 2 dogs, 5 cats and 2 horses.

"it's like they don't care that it's private property," she said, "our place is posted like crazy. i ran hunters off the property yesterday [wednesday]."

warner's against trespassing, not hunting. "i'm a hunter, respecftul hunter....[These hunters] shot him for the fun of it. there was no reason."

the state game warden who is investigating the shooting could not be reached for comment thursday.

---
now, while i feel horrible for the poor dog, this was the woman's fault. her dog should not have been running loose. it was admitedly on someone else's property when it happened, someone's property that it regulary "ran up the hill" to get to. how safe is that? why would you leave your dog loose to run around when you knew there were hunters? and for her to say they shot it for no reason...they gave her a reason. they didn't know whether it was going to bite or lick. yeah, that's scary. when a dog you don't know is running up to you barking...for many people, again, that is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR and they're liable to lash out at the dog however they can. no, the hunters should not have been trespassing on the neighbor's property (if in fact they were trespassing..it doesn't say specifically whether they were, just that the owner expected hunters to get permission. we don't know whether these particular hunters had permission or not). just another reason to KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

[3fatponies]

now, while i feel horrible for the poor dog, this was the woman's fault. her dog should not have been running loose...KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

Amen, sister, AMEN!!! :yes:

[redponyrider]

I live in PA, and there are quite large sections, often wooded, where it is completely legal to let your dog off leash for training or hunting-- the dog is expected to be under your control, but if you're training, sometimes the dogs are not quite, but hopefully in the future. I take my dogs out to these areas fairly often to work on off-leash training, as do other people. I expect my dogs to alarm bark if they see someone approaching, whether at home or out in the woods. I'd be really quite upset if someone shot at, whipped at, or struck at, one of my dogs just because they barked at and ran towards a stranger. In fact, if you struck or shot one of my dogs I'd get you arrested for animal abuse. Feel free to growl out a loud "no get away" though, or even better, say HI doggy in a friendly voice.
There is a really big difference between having a dog actually chase a horse with predatory intent, and a dog sounding the alarm to his owner about the presence of a stranger. If your horse bolts when a dog barks and runs towards the horse, what are you going to do on the many trails that run past people's backyards, where this is going to happen over and over again?

[Synrgystyk]

DieBlaueReiterin,

You're comparing entirely different situations. You describe dogs chasing a horse (pony) *on your property* and I think many states allow you to shoot a dog that is chasing livestock *on your property*. (I'd likely shoot a dog in this situation.) The OP described dogs barking and running towards her *on public land* and I'm not sure the law is equally permissive about discharging firearms on public property. Besides, in the OP's situation, her horse spun and bolted out of control; that's not an acceptable reaction whether the noisy approacher is a dog, person, deer, or anything else one might encounter in the woods.

You're also confusing normal canine behavior (barking/running/chasing) with acceptable behavior. Dogs are predators -- it's normal for them to chase. We're lucky that they're enough removed from their lupine ancestors that they bark while they run. The true predator will stalk silently, wait, and only run (silently) when there's a good chance of catching the prey. Is it acceptable for the dog to exhibit a particular behavior (running, barking, chasing, sniffing, rolling in something nasty)? With the exception of rolling in something nasty, that depends on the situation.

You asked if it was "normal/okay" for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods. Whether it's "okay" is debatable, but if you're walking along the edge of what the dog considers to be its territory, it's entirely normal for that dog to bark to tell you or any stranger (animal or person) to stay out of its territory. Is it normal in a hiking situation? For some dogs it's normal to bark for any reason (or none at all). :D

Is it ok for dogs to bark and run at people on horseback? Probably not. But is it normal? Maybe. It's within the range of normal reactions for dogs to bark at the unknown -- if the dog has never seen a horse and rider before (or has never seen the rider separate from the horse) then how likely is it that he's capable of discerning that it's a person atop an animal and not some huge, scary, unknown predator and deserving of being warned off?

Dogs also aren't behaving badly by running and barking at "anything that moves." Predators chase movement. However, a dog that continues to run/bark/chase after being recalled by its owner is definitely misbehaving and should be on a leash.

Understand, I'm not condoning dogs chasing livestock on anyone's property nor am I condoning dog owners disobeying leash laws. But I also don't condone horse owners/riders who expect the world to screech to a standstill just so their horses won't spook. (Not saying the anyone espoused this philosophy on this thread, but I'm sure we can all relate.)

However, from the vehemence of your post you come across as having a chip on your shoulder regarding dogs. You're going from the OP's described situation of dogs barking and running towards her while she was trail riding to dogs chasing livestock on private property to dogs barking at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods.

While I am not a "dog person," and particularly dislike noisy dogs, I try to not to condemn a dog for being a dog. I'll quickly condemn the owner for failing to train or control his dog, but if the owner doesn't bother to teach the dog that its normal behavior is not always acceptable, it's not the dog's fault. (Doesn't mean *I* won't tell the dog that *I* don't accept that behavior -- and it'll be just as dead for chasing livestock on my property. But it's ultimately the dog owner's fault for not training or restraining his dog.)

I also don't condemn a horse for being a horse. It's normal for horses to spook at the unknown (they're prey animals), buck and play when they're feeling good, and establish a "pecking order" in the herd. It's up to the owners/riders to train the horse to "spook in place," refrain from bucking/playing under saddle, and treat the human as "alpha." And, yes, I'll discipline the horse if that unwanted behavior affects me. (Just because your owner lets you invade her space doesn't mean you can run me over on the ground.)

Hmm...this has gotten a bit more lengthy than planned....:uhoh: Anyway, let's not turn this thread into a diatribe against all dogs.

Anyone have any good techniques for "de-spooking" a horse? With my horse, since he's more likely to spook at inanimate objects *and* we event, if he spooks at it he has to jump it (if it's jumpable). Apparently, in his mind, if it's a jump it's "fun" (regardless of how many scary decorations surround it) and not "spookable." :rolleyes: :sigh: Yes, this means we jump some very strange objects (most of them rather small and unassuming -- like kiddie pools and errant fence rails).

Lorree

[DieBlaueReiterin]

If your horse bolts when a dog barks and runs towards the horse, what are you going to do on the many trails that run past people's backyards, where this is going to happen over and over again?


there is a BIG DIFFERENCE btwn a dog running a fenceline, freaking out in his pen, or scratching against a window and a dog who is LOOSE and running at a horse barking.

also, why would you be mad if your dog DIDN'T bark at a "stranger" on public property/in a public forest??? :confused: that makes no sense. it's public, it's going to be FULL of strangers. it's NOT the dog's territory. if the dog didn't bark when someone came into your yard, yeah, of course, that would be odd. but why on earth would you allow/encourage your dog to bark at strangers on public property who have just as much of a right as you do to be on that property and enjoy it without being harrassed by a strange dog??? i just don't see the logic there...?

[3fatponies]

Anyone have any good techniques for "de-spooking" a horse?


Great post, btw. :D I like to use target fixation to deal with spooks--it seems to work really well if the rider stays confident.

[Kerrysmom818]

To clarify - I'm not saying they were hunting. But consider this: in Illinois what we in PA call State Game Lands, they call Forest Preserve (I used to live in IL). You can use Forest Preserve land for dog training all year round - which means dogs are allowed to be off leash on Forest Preserve land, so if you're riding there, you can certainly come across legally unleashed dogs even if it's not hunting season, and because it's designated "dog training" the dogs can be suburban pet yappy dogs and not necessarily hunting dogs (ime, hunting dogs usually are not a problem around horses: hounds are used to them, and so are bird dogs; it's the pet people who cause the problems). So people let their dogs have a run, and if asked, can always say they're 'training.'

I live in Illinois and ride the Forest Preserve Trails of Cook County almost daily - there is a leash law - this applies to all Cook County trails except Beck Lake. Dogs can be off leash there; however, a permit is required (horses are not allowed there). Might be different in other counties.

I try to be friendly to all the bikers, hikers and dog walkers we meet and gently remind them to stop when approaching horses and leash their dogs - this is for their safety, as well as mine. Most people just don't understand how horses might react . . .

Funniest thing I ever saw was a little dog, some kind of yorkshire terrier mix, that turned tail and took off running when it saw Kerry and I approaching. Of course, it was not on a leash. Owner was a heavy set gentlemen who proceeded to chase dog - now granted, the little thing was running like mad, but not really going very fast - owner huffing and puffing behind. Finally came to a downed tree limb and stopped - owner scooped up and stepped aside so we could get by - I so wanted to make a comment about how handy a leash would have been . . . I just smiled and waved instead.

[redponyrider]

because I've met a few really creepy men out there in the woods and would prefer that they were highly aware I had big dogs with me. The off-leash dog parts are generally quite deserted, not crawling with people as you suggest. On leash the dogs aren't allowed to bark at strangers.

We have many yards with invisible fences around here-- dog running at you barking, you never know if it's loose or not. Sometimes you don't even know if it's in a yard or not. Best to just train your horse to ignore dogs.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

KEEP YOUR DOGS LEASHED OR FENCED. god. what is so hard about that???

Oh, I agree.:yes: None of mine are ever, ever, outdoors off lead - except my border collie, who has a recall that hasn't failed yet. But she's never outside unless I'm with her. Otherwise I'd wind up with all the neighbor's livestock.:uhoh: :D

However, all dogs leashed or fenced just ain't gonna happen. The very idea of fencing or leashing is as foreign to most of my neighbors as dressing the dogs up in little pink tu-tu's and sending them to ballet class.

So I've just stopped worrying about it. I do what I can with the critters I have a modicum of control over. I planned my farm so I have plenty of riding room around my own property, and I won't venture off it until the horse is as dog-proof as possible. And I try and bicycle or walk the route I'll be riding first. That way I can get to know the canines I'll likely encounter before introducing an equine.

[Huntertwo]

Yes, it is a good idea to desensitize your horse to stand still for dogs.

BUT, at the same time I'd feel horrible if my pony trusted me, stood still and she got seriously bit.

[appaloosalady]

there is a BIG DIFFERENCE btwn a dog running a fenceline, freaking out in his pen, or scratching against a window and a dog who is LOOSE and running at a horse barking.

also, why would you be mad if your dog DIDN'T bark at a "stranger" on public property/in a public forest??? :confused: that makes no sense. it's public, it's going to be FULL of strangers. it's NOT the dog's territory. if the dog didn't bark when someone came into your yard, yeah, of course, that would be odd. but why on earth would you allow/encourage your dog to bark at strangers on public property who have just as much of a right as you do to be on that property and enjoy it without being harrassed by a strange dog??? i just don't see the logic there...?

Do you think the horse is going to know the difference? A barking, running dog behind a fence is going to be just as scary to a horse that hasn't been desensitized to it. Bolting is unacceptable behavior no matter what the reason is behind it. Spooking and taking a few steps, I'll deal with, but bolting is a serious respect issue and should be dealt with instead of worrying about someone letting their dogs bark at you.

As Redpony said - I want my dog to bark when we are out on public land to alert me of someone's presence AND let them know I have a dog with me. When my dog and I are out, I am his territory and he will defend me. He will also stop barking as soon as I tell him to.

[c5rose]

OK, as the OP, I'd like to clarify a few things:

We WERE being chased in thick woods. The dogs continued to run after my horse and I as I heard the dog's owner yelling for them to return. They did, after about 200 feet.

Hunting is illegal in these woods, as it's only about a 30 acre parcel with neighborhoods all around it. In the middle is a ball field for children. So, no, they were not hunting.

In PA, I know dogs are to be leashed at all times, with a few exceptions (service dogs, hunting, etc.). I originally wrote the owner would be liable for any injury I may have sustained, and someone shamed me for this. I'm not a law-suit happy person (never been involved in one), but it's true; His dogs were not under his control.

Any dog chasing a person or domestic animal can be legally shot, whether on private or public property.

My horses are greatly desensitised to dogs, bikes, trampolines, deer, screaming, fireworks, cars and much more, thanks to the macadamed bike trail directly next to their pasture, and thanks to the two giant children-heavy neighborhoods surround our property. They're around dogs quite often - sometimes in their pasture. My horse initially spooked in place - which is what exactly he should have done. Only when the dogs started barking and chasing US did he run away. Tell me what horse would stand still? Or better yet, run towards them? Again, it was thick, thick brush. It's not like my horse saw how many dogs there were or what direction they were coming from.

After reading so many negative things about the training of my horse, I almost feel I need to defend myself here. Perhaps I do need to work on spooking in place more. Or having barking animals run at them where they can't see. It's true no horse is bomb-proof, but show me the horse that would stand in the situation I was in, other than a police horse.

[appaloosalady]

How long did he keep running after the dogs stopped? No horse is bombproof, but they should be stopable unless in a complete, eyes rolled back terror. We ride past many yards with invisible fence and BIG, loud dogs. To tell the truth it scares me sometimes, but the horses just walk by like there is nothing to it and will turn and go towards the dogs if we ask them to. I know this is different than having dogs come at you from out of sight and I don't blame your horse for being spooked, I just have zero tolerance for bolters.

[c5rose]

He stopped shortly after the dogs stopped chasing us. He walked the rest of the way home without rushing or jigging. He's a good boy - I was able to calmly ride him yesterday past this exact area without jitter or hesitation. His ears were perky, but that was it.

There's a yard with an invisible fence directly next to us with a collie and a JRT, always barking and running after the horses and I as we ride around our property. These dogs never bother my mount - perhaps they're used to them barking at every person walking by and the dogs not leaving their property or they can clearly see them.

I wasn't asking anyone to critique the training or lack thereof on my horse. Rather, I wanted to know if this similar thing happened to anyone and if anyone had some feedback on laws in PA about loose dogs.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

I expect my dogs to alarm bark if they see someone approaching, whether at home or out in the woods. I'd be really quite upset if someone shot at, whipped at, or struck at, one of my dogs just because they barked at and ran towards a stranger. In fact, if you struck or shot one of my dogs I'd get you arrested for animal abuse. Feel free to growl out a loud "no get away" though, or even better, say HI doggy in a friendly voice.
There is a really big difference between having a dog actually chase a horse with predatory intent, and a dog sounding the alarm to his owner about the presence of a stranger. If your horse bolts when a dog barks and runs towards the horse, what are you going to do on the many trails that run past people's backyards, where this is going to happen over and over again?

again, why is it ok for your dog to run towards me? it's perfectly fine for him to bark an alarm, or run towards me if i'm approaching YOU in a predatory way. however, if i am walking down the road/trail/whatever, it is NOT ok for him to run at me. as for having me arrested for animal abuse...i hate to break it to you, but it PA i AM allowed to shoot your dog if it runs at me and i feel threatened. and FWIW, my horses all walk calmly past dogs that are in their yards, houses, pens, walking by on leashes, etc. the ONLY time this pony ever had a problem with a dog was when it was running towards her, barking.

[citydog]

as i stated, if my horse is in danger, i'll do whatever i can to keep him safe.

And I think you just don't understand that a determined dog over 40lbs or so (and some very determined ones who weigh a little less than that) can easily take you down and cause you some mighty debilitating injuries. As noble and "macho" as your intentions may be to protect your horse, you wouldn't necessarily be doing what's most sensible for either of you by getting off and going after the dog.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

DieBlaueReiterin,

You're comparing entirely different situations. You describe dogs chasing a horse (pony) *on your property* and I think many states allow you to shoot a dog that is chasing livestock *on your property*. (I'd likely shoot a dog in this situation.) The OP described dogs barking and running towards her *on public land* and I'm not sure the law is equally permissive about discharging firearms on public property. Besides, in the OP's situation, her horse spun and bolted out of control; that's not an acceptable reaction whether the noisy approacher is a dog, person, deer, or anything else one might encounter in the woods.


i wasn't very specific in my post, and i apologize. we were on my property insofar as we were walking down the strip of grass that runs along next to it. these dogs, who til now i've NEVER seen out of their pen, were loose in their yard, and ran thru their hedges, into the street and towards us as we approached. that's when the pony freaked out. she's been walking past them barking frantically in their pen for 6 mos now and never had a prob. i think these situations are similar-loose dogs, trail ride, dogs running at horses, horse freaks out. FWIW, in PA i could have shot them and been in the right.

You're also confusing normal canine behavior (barking/running/chasing) with acceptable behavior. Dogs are predators -- it's normal for them to chase. ... Is it acceptable for the dog to exhibit a particular behavior (running, barking, chasing, sniffing, rolling in something nasty)? With the exception of rolling in something nasty, that depends on the situation.

You asked if it was "normal/okay" for dogs to run and bark at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods. Whether it's "okay" is debatable, but if you're walking along the edge of what the dog considers to be its territory, it's entirely normal for that dog to bark to tell you or any stranger (animal or person) to stay out of its territory. Is it normal in a hiking situation? For some dogs it's normal to bark for any reason (or none at all). :D


i do see your point here, and again, i should have been more specific. dogs barking? perfectly fine. dogs running at me, whether i'm on foot, on a bike or on a horse? no. the law is on my side-that is an offense punishable by death, even tho i'd say most cases that would be a very extreme reaction.


Is it ok for dogs to bark and run at people on horseback? Probably not. But is it normal? Maybe. It's within the range of normal reactions for dogs to bark at the unknown -- if the dog has never seen a horse and rider before (or has never seen the rider separate from the horse) then how likely is it that he's capable of discerning that it's a person atop an animal and not some huge, scary, unknown predator and deserving of being warned off?

Dogs also aren't behaving badly by running and barking at "anything that moves." Predators chase movement. However, a dog that continues to run/bark/chase after being recalled by its owner is definitely misbehaving and should be on a leash.

Understand, I'm not condoning dogs chasing livestock on anyone's property nor am I condoning dog owners disobeying leash laws. But I also don't condone horse owners/riders who expect the world to screech to a standstill just so their horses won't spook. (Not saying the anyone espoused this philosophy on this thread, but I'm sure we can all relate.)


i know it's not the dog's fault, it's the owner's, and that's a shame. as per usual, the animal is the one to suffer for its owners idiocy.


However, from the vehemence of your post you come across as having a chip on your shoulder regarding dogs. You're going from the OP's described situation of dogs barking and running towards her while she was trail riding to dogs chasing livestock on private property to dogs barking at people walking down the street or hiking in the woods.

While I am not a "dog person," and particularly dislike noisy dogs, I try to not to condemn a dog for being a dog. I'll quickly condemn the owner for failing to train or control his dog, but if the owner doesn't bother to teach the dog that its normal behavior is not always acceptable, it's not the dog's fault. ...
I also don't condemn a horse for being a horse. It's normal for horses to spook at the unknown (they're prey animals), buck and play when they're feeling good, and establish a "pecking order" in the herd. It's up to the owners/riders to train the horse to "spook in place," refrain from bucking/playing under saddle, and treat the human as "alpha."

i do have a chip on my shoulder, bc what happened to us could have been really bad. this was a student of mine that was riding, the pony did spin and bolt, and the kid got caught in an electric fence. the owners, who KNOW us, come use our indoor all the time, and could def see us coming, did not warn us in any way that the dogs were loose, didn't try to restrain them, and never came to see if the kid was ok. i was furious after this whole incident, and the kid was traumatized. no horse is bombproof, and altho my horse was fine (other than an initial spook at the dogs and then wanting to run after his gilfriend) i couldn't get too mad at the pony. it's their instinct to run away from predators.

[citydog]

again, why is it ok for your dog to run towards me?



It absolutely is *not* ok. Normal and natural for the (untrained) dog, but not ok.

But since one can't control the idiot dog *owners* of the world, one should proof one's horse as best as one can.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

because I've met a few really creepy men out there in the woods and would prefer that they were highly aware I had big dogs with me. The off-leash dog parts are generally quite deserted, not crawling with people as you suggest. On leash the dogs aren't allowed to bark at strangers.

We have many yards with invisible fences around here-- dog running at you barking, you never know if it's loose or not. Sometimes you don't even know if it's in a yard or not. Best to just train your horse to ignore dogs.

and i totally think that's a great idea. i don't blame you one bit for wanting to have big, loud dogs with all the weirdos running around! there's nothing wrong with dogs barking, or protecting their territory.

my horses are fine with dogs. the pony in question has been walking by the house with all the dogs for 6 mos an never had a problem-bc they've always been in a large pen. there are 5 or 6 of them and they get very loud and riled up when we go by-she looks, but that's it. we also walk by many other fenced/restrained dogs including a huge dobie who strains at the end of his tie and barks like crazy, getting *this* close to the road (and you can just see how frustrated he is that he can't get closer!:lol: ). the pony spooked when the dogs were loose in their yard and charged out of their yard and across the street at us.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

Do you think the horse is going to know the difference? A barking, running dog behind a fence is going to be just as scary to a horse that hasn't been desensitized to it. Bolting is unacceptable behavior no matter what the reason is behind it. Spooking and taking a few steps, I'll deal with, but bolting is a serious respect issue and should be dealt with instead of worrying about someone letting their dogs bark at you.

actually, i KNOW the horses know the difference. how do i know this? bc i've been riding for many many yrs past fenced/leashed/tied/indoor-scratching-at0the-windows dogs and never ONCE had a spook/bolt/anything more than a "look" at them. the pony i mentioned in my post has been walking by these dogs for 6 months-in their pen. there a about a half dozen of them and they get into a frenzy when we walk by and she's NEVER spooked at them. when the dogs came bursting through the hedges and ran across the street at us, barking like crazy, THAT is when she spooked and bolted. and that is what i have a problem with-loose dogs that run at horses, not dogs that bark.


As Redpony said - I want my dog to bark when we are out on public land to alert me of someone's presence AND let them know I have a dog with me. When my dog and I are out, I am his territory and he will defend me. He will also stop barking as soon as I tell him to.

and i think it's great that your dog barks and it's smart of you to bring him with you when you're out, esp this day in age. it's one thing if he stands there barking, or strains the end of his leash. that's perfectly fine and dandy. what i have a problem with is when dogs run at me. that's what's scary. i'd have been so scared myself, if it were me just walking down the road and those dogs came running at me! i almost couldn't blame the pony for running off!

[A. P.]

Yes, the owner of the dogs should have kept them under control: however you can't control others, so you need to train your horse not to bolt when dogs run at him.

Next time, if dogs start towards you, encourage your horse run AT the dogs: I have never had a horse refuse to do this, and it generally sends the dogs scurryi wwith their tails between their legs!

[Anne FS]

DieBlauR:

you understand NOTHING of living in the country.

Here we have 2 neighbors who happily "share" property inthat the dog is welcome on both. That is NORMAL country behavior. We have TRESPASSING hunters on POSTED land who shot a dog. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

According to the article, the hunters were on posted land w/o permission. They're WRONG. And the article says the dog was near it's own barn - it does not say the dog was on the neighbor's land; it says the hunters were. Not the same thing.

I could fully understand the dog being on it's property (it's own and the neighbors where it is welcome to be) and not locked up in hunting season because the land owners had not given permission for the hunters to be there, so it should've been safe.

And shooting while ADMITTING THE DOG MIGHT HAVE BEEN FRIENDLY????

APPALLING.

And I think they're lying. Why? Owner hears shot and dog yelp. Then owner hears TWO MORE SHOTS. What was necessary about the next two shots, huh?

The first shot obviously hurt the dog and these yahoos finished it off in the middle of the road. As it was running for home, no doubt. Oh, yeah, real men.

[MSP]

I have encountered many dogs while riding and have never had a problem. Usually if the owner of the dog(s) is around I warn them that my horse may kick or chase the dog if he feels threatened or is attacked.

Ace nailed one dog in the head once, both I and the dog s owner tried to prevent this but the dog dashed in to nip at Aces heels.

Once a dog ran out of no ware and was running in to Aces leg and nipping. In this case I did drop the reins and allow Ace to chase the dog. He would turn in to a cutter and drop his head and give pursute (he is a stb).

Once while out in his turn out a Doberman came into his paddock and thought he was going to harass Ace but found himself running away for his life. This allowed me a good view of my horse’s posture while chasing dogs; he had his head close to the ground and his mouth looked like he was preparing to bite!

Just about every other encounter with dogs was placid. We went our way and the dog went their way! My filly has the same fearless disposition so I doubt I will have any trouble with her being frightened by a measly dog. Should she show any hesitation I will work with her so she knows she has the advantage!

IMO, it is just another obstacle that any well trained trail horse should be ready for.

[MSP]

Tell me what horse would stand still? Or better yet, run towards them? Again, it was thick, thick brush. It's not like my horse saw how many dogs there were or what direction they were coming from.

After reading so many negative things about the training of my horse, I almost feel I need to defend myself here. Perhaps I do need to work on spooking in place more. Or having barking animals run at them where they can't see. It's true no horse is bomb-proof, but show me the horse that would stand in the situation I was in, other than a police horse.

Mine would!

The point isn’t that your horse spooked but that he ran and you did not stop him. Are you afraid of the dogs; if you are your horse maybe getting this message from you?

You just missed a nice training opportunity. Next time do a one rein stop and turn your horse to face the dogs. I would then encourage the horse to chase the dogs if they are being aggressive. Your horse FAR outweighs any dog; give him the courage to defend himself.

I have just back peddled through this thread and can’t believe there are that many wimpy horses! I think your horse can read you if you are scared and are alarmed vs. communicating to your horse that he can kill that dog if he wants to. None of my horses have ever been afraid of a dog; is this a coincidence? Startled maybe, but once they get a look at what they are dealing with they are not frightened.

Now if a bear came lunging out of the woods at me I might run like hell!

[colleent]

And I think you just don't understand that a determined dog over 40lbs or so (and some very determined ones who weigh a little less than that) can easily take you down and cause you some mighty debilitating injuries. As noble and "macho" as your intentions may be to protect your horse, you wouldn't necessarily be doing what's most sensible for either of you by getting off and going after the dog.

don't underestimate what i would do for my horse if i had enough adrenaline running thru me. like i said i would be using a big stick. you can choose to do what you want, me, i'm defending my horse.

[colleent]

DBR- i get the same local newspaper. i'm 3 miles from the crossings. are you near there? by the way, You are exactly right. we DO know how it works here in the country. more and more dog attacks are happening here. and altho it's the owner's fault, i will do whatever i need to to protect my horses and any other person or pet i love.

[JointVenture]

I don't know if anyone has posted this (I skimmed the responses but didn't read them all). Personally, I think it is ridiculous to blame the OP for the incident. The law is clear. Dogs must be leashed in PA and further, may not chase (pursue) domestic animals of any kind. It does not matter who runs first. I'd hate for a situation like that to come to this, but PA law allows the person who observes this behavior to kill the dog in question without reprisal.

Bottom line...the dogs should have been leashed. Period.


Pennsylvania

Citation: 3 P.S. § 459-502; 3 P.S. § 459-507-A; 3 P.S. § 459-102

Summary: These statutes represent Pennsylvania's Dog Law, and contain provisions related to licensing, rabies quarantines, kennels, and the dangerous dog chapter. The significant features of the law include a statewide leash requirement for dogs (Section 305) and provisions for "dangerous dogs" (Section 501 et. seq.). Under the latter, any person may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing or wounding or killing any domestic animal, including household pets, or pursuing, wounding or attacking human beings, whether or not such a dog bears a required license tag. There is no liability on such persons in damages or otherwise for such killing.

[nightsong]

I took this whip and laid it HARD across this dog's back. He was not pleased but did not leave


You could take a lesson froom the CATS and go for the FACE next time.

[colleent]

Joint Venture, thanks for posting that.

i love dogs. i have two of my own. and they are under control at all times. but..i also love my horse. and if Shooting a dog will save him, then so be it.

[citydog]

don't underestimate what i would do for my horse if i had enough adrenaline running thru me. like i said i would be using a big stick. you can choose to do what you want, me, i'm defending my horse.



Yeah, that's why police K9s are so ineffective. :rolleyes:

Nice fantasy you've got going there. I sincerely hope you never, ever have to actually live it.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

DieBlauR:

you understand NOTHING of living in the country.

Here we have 2 neighbors who happily "share" property inthat the dog is welcome on both. That is NORMAL country behavior. We have TRESPASSING hunters on POSTED land who shot a dog. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

According to the article, the hunters were on posted land w/o permission. They're WRONG. And the article says the dog was near it's own barn - it does not say the dog was on the neighbor's land; it says the hunters were. Not the same thing.

I could fully understand the dog being on it's property (it's own and the neighbors where it is welcome to be) and not locked up in hunting season because the land owners had not given permission for the hunters to be there, so it should've been safe.

And shooting while ADMITTING THE DOG MIGHT HAVE BEEN FRIENDLY????

APPALLING.

And I think they're lying. Why? Owner hears shot and dog yelp. Then owner hears TWO MORE SHOTS. What was necessary about the next two shots, huh?

The first shot obviously hurt the dog and these yahoos finished it off in the middle of the road. As it was running for home, no doubt. Oh, yeah, real men.

i agree, it was a HORRID thing to happen and i feel awful for the dog. the hunters are a$$holes, no doubt. i just htought it was relevant to the thread. all it really said was the dog was "near" his barn-it also mentioned he was in the middle of the road. to me that meant an actual road. also, it doesn't come out and say the hunters were tresspassing, just that the owner "expected" hunters to ask permission. never says whether these guys had permission or not. it was a terrible thing, to be sure. but, as they said in the article, let that be a warning to people who let their dogs roam free. in pa, you can shoot first and ask questions later-whether it's morally right or not, that's the law.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

DBR- i get the same local newspaper. i'm 3 miles from the crossings. are you near there? by the way, You are exactly right. we DO know how it works here in the country. more and more dog attacks are happening here. and altho it's the owner's fault, i will do whatever i need to to protect my horses and any other person or pet i love.

i go to grad school at "the" university up there. i live, and my horse is in, northampton county. pretty country-ish despite the influx of city goers that have been moving in lately. ;) we should ride together sometime!

[colleent]

actually, the area has become so full of city people, there is NO land here anymore. i moved my horse to Columbia NJ. there are horse people all over the place and cars HAVE to slow down at your hand signal. only 25 minutes from my house. but if you have trailer, you are welcome to come out sometime.

[yellow-horse]

well the dog owner was wrong, you can take whatever legal action you care to but on the other hand, if you trail ride you are going to run into idiots, so the best approach is having control of your horse
usually turning towards the dog works, i've had a rare occasion of a very aggressive dog, the akita incident comes to mind where running is the best option, this particular incident was i was riding on established riding trails past private property where it looked like someone was setting up some wort of outdoor event witha tent etc, i was on the other side of the creek when this woman as best i can figure sent the akita after us, i couldn't understand what she was saying exactly but it did appear she was sending the dog at us, i turned my horse and we bolted away, the dog was still a distance from us, i think if you wait too long to figure out what to do this option might get you hurt, but the dog was really coming at us, while i did not like the bolt, on the other hand that dog looked like it meant business, i stopped her when i thought we were a safe distance
most of the time however,if it's a friendly looking goof ball dog i call it over and say good dog and we stand there let the dog sniff and then go on or if i'm not in the mood ride purposely towards the dog
but sometimes the better option is to run

[Angela Freda]

I yelled, "Will your dogs chase my horse?" No response. I yelled again, "Hello? Will your dogs chase my horse?" The dogs started barking and running towards us. The man yelled back, "Ya shouldn't have said nuttin!"

This response from the owner of the dogs says to me that having made her presence obvious to the dogs was provocation for their barking and approaching the horse in what sounds like an aggresive manner. Doesn't sound like well trained dogs that I would want to stick around to get to know.

[EventerAJ]

I also have an issue with neighbor's horse-chasing dogs.

My horse (and most of the others I ride) are *NOT* afraid of dogs. We hack with our dogs regularly. Dogs barking and running around do not bother them. They do not bother me. This is when hacking- walking, or trotting.

However, there is a problem when we gallop. I gallop on Neighbor 1's land. Neighbor 1 does not have horses, but is very friendly and nice enough to let us ride on his land. The gallop path is on the edge of his land, bordering Neighbor 2 (no fencing anywhere).

Neighbor 2 has several dogs, loose, but generally remain on their property. When we gallop, though, their dogs get very excited and chase our horses. Actually, it's more like an ambush. When I approach the part of property nearest their house, the dog jumps from the tall grass, growling and snarling running right at my horse's legs. My horse is understandably surprised, lurches sideways or bolts forward, severely interrupting our gallop. The dog crosses onto Neighbor 1's property for some distance, but eventually turns back home to wait again (multiple gallop sets).

Neighbor 2 is aware that we gallop, and that the dogs are disturbing, but nothing happens. The dog is a medium-sized mix. MANY times I've turned my horse around (at a gallop) and chased the $*&#&9% dog back to its house. As soon as I turn around, the dog chases back. It's a game to him. I yell at him, but he is not easily deterred. It's frustrating because it ruins part of my conditioning program. And it's not like the horse is scared of dogs... if the horse sees the dog coming, the dog can chase us all day long and she doesn't care. It's the sudden ambush, growling and snapping right under her feet when she's been concentrating on her workout that makes her bolt.

I don't think the dog would ever hurt a horse, but how do I break him from chasing us? I've plotted and schemed ways to "get him"-- I've actually gotten off and filled my pockets with rocks to throw at him... I wanted to buy a water gun (but Walmart didn't have any). It has to be a method that I can attempt while riding at speed... the dog doesn't really bother us unless we're galloping. Any suggestions?

It's hard because this doesn't happen on OUR property, and the dogs don't pose much inconvenience to Neighbor 1. We don't know Neighbor 2 well enough to call ahead every time we want to gallop; and it's not like the dogs are a problem *every time*. I just want the stupid little bastard dog to QUIT CHASING MY HORSE. :mad: (As an aside... Neighbor 2 isn't exactly the most responsible, loving pet owner either...I sometimes doubt they'd even notice if the dumb dog disappeared...).