PDA

View Full Version : Incredible incredible horse



Pages : [1] 2

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:03 AM
this is a link to video of Quaterback, a sensation at Verden and now at Oldenburg, in the Althengstparade

thank you, EBT!

www.eurobreederstour.com

Sabine
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:27 AM
WOOHAA!! that is some kind of horse- now who gets to be the guinea pig to train this thing??? Just trying to collect him seems like a major balancing act...but WOW again for the trot and canter- does he have a walk too??

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:44 AM
from www.eurodressage.com
(and a BIG thank you to Astrid for great coverage of Oldenburg Stallion Days)

<<Rider Christian Flamm just had to sit back and relax in the saddle of this super star. He's a stunner, he can walk, trot and canter. When Flamm collects Quaterback's trot, he goes into the most natural passage. What's the source of all this success? Poetin's dam Poesie. Quaterback is by Quaterman (by Quando Quando) out of Brandenburger x Brentano II. His grand dam is Poesie, who produced world champions Poetin and Sandro Hit. >>

earlier this year, at Verden (he's still ONLY THREE YEARS OLD)

Quaterback received 9.50 for trot - 10.00 for canter - 7.50 for walk- 9.50 for conformation - 9.00 for overall impression and 10 from both guest rider judges

YoungFilly
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:46 AM
The horse is a show off. :D

Sabine
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:49 AM
The horse is a show off. :D

of course- he's got balls...LOL! you could breed one of your ladies to him...

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:59 AM
Wow...I've seen saddlebreds with less knee action than he has at that trot. I guess he is the ultimate dressage mover but a trot like that just doesn't seem natural. I would really like to see how well he can collect also.

Mao
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:18 AM
WOW!

DB - notice they used music from Spirit: Stallion of Cimarron during some of the trot sequences?

Oops - I mean during the canter sequences....

Robyn
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:48 AM
Looks like the Micheal Jordan of the equine world - can we say AIR TIME!
Wow!
Robin

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:53 AM
WOW!

DB - notice they used music from Spirit: Stallion of Cimarron during some of the trot sequences?

Oops - I mean during the canter sequences....

No I missed that...had the volume turned off! That is good music and I'm not surprised to see it used. I really want to put a freestyle together with it someday.

Don't take my earlier comments wrong...he is a lovely uber horse...but I like more all arounders who can do more than just dressage and those gaits were never meant to be ridden outside of a nice arena. It will be neat to see how far he goes in his training.

Mao
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:11 AM
No I missed that...had the volume turned off! That is good music and I'm not surprised to see it used. I really want to put a freestyle together with it someday.

Don't take my earlier comments wrong...he is a lovely uber horse...but I like more all arounders who can do more than just dressage and those gaits were never meant to be ridden outside of a nice arena. It will be neat to see how far he goes in his training.

DB - have to agree.

I'm trying to imagine him moseying down the trail... we'd all be screaming "Watch out for that treeeeeee.....! SPLAT!" ala George of the Jungle.

And I can just picture my horses eyeballing him in horror, 'WTF mate? What's wrong with you?'

LOL!!!!

Seriously though - that is one seriously spectacular horse!

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:17 AM
As I'm sure many of the dressage afficionados would agree, I have no clue what I'm talking about (;)) but that horse is just incredible.

merrygoround
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:38 AM
Absolutely gorgeous. I did notice though that the rider seemed quite cautious on the lengthings, or was it my imagination that he asked for them?

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:43 AM
And I can just picture my horses eyeballing him in horror, 'WTF mate? What's wrong with you?'



:lol: That is so true!

Lisa Cook
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:45 AM
That stallion is 3 years old, and that was quite an electric atmosphere which probably would have melted more than one older horse. I think the rider did a fabulous job, and I think the horse was amazing in movement and temperament, especially for his age and the conditions.

Very cool video - thanks for posting!

rileyt
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:50 AM
Wow. That is all I can say.

That, and ...

I don't think I could sit his trot correctly in a million years!

beeblebrox
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:53 AM
"merrygoround
Absolutely gorgeous. I did notice though that the rider seemed quite cautious on the lengthings, or was it my imagination that he asked for them?"

The horse is 3 and if you were on a 3 yea old in front of a roaring crowd I Imagine we would all be cautious ;-)


LOL

what a cool mover

Tiki
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:59 AM
As big as his trot is, it has a lot of loft and suspension and looks like a soft landing. His rider doesn't move in the saddle. He actually looks pretty easy to sit, like bouncing on a big marshmallow. Big trots don't have to be jarring.

nhwr
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:59 AM
His grand dam is Poesie, who produced world champions Poetin and Sandro Hit.
Not quite right. Lorretta, an incredible mare, produced the stallions Diamond Hit, Royal Hit and Sandro Hit.

Thanks for posting the video Canyonoak. Super horse.

Valentina_32926
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:20 AM
My mare has that same canter - but we're still working on getting her trot better.

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:25 AM
I'm guessing his trot is easy to sit--just so long as the rider can do what Christian Flamm does (hahahahahahah):

manage to keep the schwung, the carrying behind, the rhythm, the balance, the focus.

what makes this horse incredible is precisely that he moves max through all his joints AND stays supple.

Now the canter...that looks like it takes a LOT of following hips.

and Im guessing that he is fine on hacks--or as fine as a 3 year old stallion can be.

Lisa Cook
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:29 AM
and Im guessing that he is fine on hacks--or as fine as a 3 year old stallion can be.

I'm with you there - Any 3 year old, stallion or no stallion, who could cope so well mentally with the atmopshere in that building, I think would surivive a hack, also. ;)

But, let's face it, horses that hack well on trails are a dime a dozen, but horses that can move like Quaterback in the dressage ring are a bit harder to find!

STF
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:34 AM
Lovely!

TBKate
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:34 AM
Wow. I can't wait to see that boy when he gets older and further along in his training! Now, must go find lovely lovely mare.....and start saving lots of money for a stud fee.....LOL!

Lisa Cook
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:44 AM
And if he does all that at THREE, just exactly how long has been working under saddle, and how long will he stay sound?? Or is that why dressage horses commonly receive hock injections as part of normal and customary care?

And yeah, I suppose just about any 3 year old stallion in that kind of an electrifying atmosphere and men chasing him with whips would have his ass on fire too.

Lovely animal though - just wish the warmblood people would quit doing what the quarter horse people do. Get 'em turned out by 3.

Where, exactly, were the men chasing him with whips? I must of missed that part. I also saw no horse with "his ass on fire"....just a lovely, obedient 3 year old with natural breathtaking gaits.

The horse was walking, trotting and cantering...he wasn't asked for undue collection or complicated lateral movements, or asked to jump a 4 foot course. A 3 year old should manage a basic walk/trot/canter under saddle without causing soundness issues as they grow older. They play in the field harder than that.

Horsecrazy27
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:46 AM
HMM....

My mare is saying----- "bring it over big daddy"!! :)

ha ha ha.

NoDQhere
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:06 AM
What an incredible horse!! What an incredible mind! What I find amazing, though is that some people seem to think that because he's so talented he wouldn't be any good for anything other than dressage. I would guess he is quite a good jumper with that natural "through" and elastisity. His movement is not "saddlebredy" in any way. He has much push from behind, is very over the back and gives me the impression of being easy to ride. And with a mind that solid and cooperative at 3 years old, I'd guess he would be just fine out on the trails.

Just because a horse is uber talented and has the ability to "turn it on" doesn't make them difficult. Maybe not a horse for a greenie, but not a fire breathing dragon either.

retrofit
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:06 AM
You guys can have your all-rounders. That horse is dee-licious!

Kate66
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:09 AM
Maybe I was watching the wrong clip too. Like Two simple everything I saw was in-hand. I'll look again.

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:11 AM
Please don't take my comments the wrong way...he is lovely as a dressage horse. He is not my cup of tea with his extravagant movement but I admire his quality. I would not want to ride him down a rocky steep mountain trail no matter how quiet he seems in that arena, and I still want to see how well he can collect those amazing gaits when he gets a little older.

Kate66
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:14 AM
OK, I just looked at the right clip. Doesn't everyone's horse move like that???

Dang, that is an unbelievable horse! Poetry in motion.

siegi b.
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:18 AM
Daydream Believer.... your post is like me saying your Spanish mustangs are nice going down a steep trail but I wouldn't want to do dressage with them. But don't take that the wrong way... :-)

Quaterback is an extraordinary horse with excellent gaits and character. At 3 years old it's a little early to say what he can and can't do, but I would consider it a waste of talents to have him going down steep trails.

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:24 AM
Siegi... Coming from you, I'll take that as a complement. Enjoy your horses and I'll enjoy mine but I have every bit the right to express my opinion on this thread as those who are singing nothing but praise and lust for this young horse. Some of us believe that a horse that is only good for one thing is a waste of talent.

MyReality
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:27 AM
Goodness what a beauty. What I absolutely love about this horse is his soft elastic, relaxed but expressiveness of his movement, that is almost impossible to train into a horse. Personally even my most ideal horse I don't really look for such a fancy mover... but that softness and elasticity, sends me to heaven and back! Also absolutely love love his attitude who showed true enjoyment of the crowd and being worked.. yes the rider is an art of perfection... I know the best of horses being ridden by best of riders who will stay with the rider and perform well... but he looked like he really soaked up the show atmosphere.

I don't see that the horse is being worked beyond his ability. He doesn't show a bit of strain, stress or tension. Very unique individual.

If I have a mare, I would definitely breed her to him.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:32 AM
i take your comments at face value, daydream believer. which was very negative and critical.

this is a great moving horse with tons of potential. if you think this is a bad mover with 'too much knee action' then i understand a lot of your other comments a lot better. all starting to fit into place now.

and yes, these horses do play around considerably at these things. their gaits at 4 or 5 will not be quite as airborn or as excited, but this one will still have great gaits. they are 3 for heaven's sake they are going to be a little light in their loafers at these things.

generally these young horses come to these things with very, very little work under their belts, and go home and go back to being patio pets. they don't work them much til 4 or 5, but also, a well balanced horse like this isn't very hard on himself, and what work they get usually isn't a problem for them. i haven't tried any of these world beaters, but ones in the same system and of lesser ability, are even very green at FIVE, they just don't always train the crap out of them. in fact, i'd say americans are far more guiltier of that on the whole.

yes, some people work the snot out of them at this age, but fact is, they don't all make you happy and go terribly lame.

kkj
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:33 AM
Incredible and so much fun to watch.

Someone who knows more than I do, doesn't his trot seem a little too "passagey", not when he lengthens but otherwise? Isn't that sort of a flaw? Florencio seems that way too and he is a world champion so maybe it is not the flaw I thought it was.

He is absolutely amazing for a 3 year old. The rider is doing an amazing job.

Sort of with Two Simple a little here though. I think asking a three year old to do the lengthening, sitting the trot on them, etc may be asking for trouble down the line. I think the horse has a incredible amount of talent but I would not be surprised if he suffered a fate like Poetin herself and was washed up at 6. The stifles, the hocks, the yet very immature back, this intensity of riding often takes a toll on even the creme of the crop prospects. Just because they can go like that and you can sit on them at 3 doesn't mean having them doing it is a wise thing longterm. With the FEI young horse tests and the outrageous prices super fancy young dressage prospects can fetch today, I think the pressure to push too hard too fast is getting scary. In a way it is like Quarterhorses or cutting horses or even race horses where the horse is a champion at 3 and 4 and done at 6 or 7.

Still I love the amazing dressage horses that are being produced today.

Lisa Cook
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:38 AM
Some of us believe that a horse that is only good for one thing is a waste of talent.

Only good for one thing?! Says who?! A horse with that mind and that athleticism is certainly good for more than one thing. Clearly, he has great potential as a dressage horse, so it makes sense point him in direction and develop him to the limits of his ability there...but "only good for one thing"?! WHAT, exactly, are you using for the basis of that determination?

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:39 AM
if you think this is a bad mover with 'too much knee action' then i understand a lot of your other comments a lot better.
.

Where did I say that? :confused: I think you forgot your medication this morning. I never said he was a bad mover at all. I said he was an incredible, ultimate mover for dressage but my only criticism was that I felt he might not be able to collect as well later in his training nor that he would be much of an all around type of horse. I am not the only person who wondered about the collection either if you go back and read for comprehension.

Sorry if I dared to offer any criticism of this horse along with my complements.

Bronte
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:41 AM
I'm guessing his trot is easy to sit--just so long as the rider can do what Christian Flamm does (hahahahahahah):

manage to keep the schwung, the carrying behind, the rhythm, the balance, the focus.

what makes this horse incredible is precisely that he moves max through all his joints AND stays supple.

Now the canter...that looks like it takes a LOT of following hips.

and Im guessing that he is fine on hacks--or as fine as a 3 year old stallion can be.

Abolutely canyonoak!

And for those of you who; do not like this type, or doubt his rideability, collectability, temperament, etc etc etc. With all due respect, you are totally out of touch with modern sporthorse breeding. And that's fine, but please don't knock what you clearly do not understand.:(

Amazing horse, gaits, temperament the full 9 yards!

Bronte
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:51 AM
Yup! Pretty much.

Lovely animal, but a 3 year old hot stallion being chased by whips in a strange environment doesn't really tell you much what the gaits will be like at maturity. That goes for any horse - not just this one. In the 'in hand' video, it is impossible for the handler to get the horse to stand still. He is tap dancing all over his handler. And that's just what most babies would do in a strange situation. So its pretty clear that he was hot and wired for sound that day. And that does a lot to increase the expressiveness of gaits.


Oooops, nearly let my fingers do the talking, but thought twice about it. "If you are going to have it out with someone, make sure someone is home........."

Mozart
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:00 PM
I think I can safely bet a large amount of money that no offspring of this horse is going to end up in a backyard up to his knees in mud sporting halter scars...;)
Well, heck I'LL take him if anyone gives this horse to you unbelievers and you don't want him :lol:

Certainly his gaits may change somewhat as he matures (that happens in humans too, btw..:) but at the moment he has only a passing acquaintance with gravity.

Yup. I'll take him :yes:

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:01 PM
ummm..which video has the horse in-hand, whips, etc?

I only have dial-up, and I clicked on the dial-up of Quaterback.

are some of you watching the Champion/ reserve Champion of the Approval?

mademoiselle
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:05 PM
Come on people ...

Walk, trot, canter and even lengthening , is not going to ruin a horse for later.

It's better for a horse to work 20 minutes a day with a job than just going crooked with his nose up in the air around for 30 minutes at the walk and trot because he is just a baby.

He is an amazing horse period. I'm sure we would make an upper level eventing horse and probably a Grand Prix jumper. He is balanced, he has an incredible canter.

I don't see why he would be a bad trail horse. He has actually a very good brain. It's very hard for a horse to stay focused in an indoor like that and he did his job like a Champ'.

As far as collection, I don't see why it would be a problem. He is very supple, he is naturally balanced and has no problem going from a medium trot to a working trot, so I wouldn't worry for his future as a top level dressage horse.

As far as breeding, Give me a break ...
I would breed a mare any day to this horse. He has great bloodlines, he has an incredible movement, he is well put togethere and has pretty much everything you're looking for in a modern sporthorse. I don't care, if he hasn't won any blue ribbon or if we don't know yet if his offsping is Grand Prix level material. I don't see how you can not improve by breeding to a horse like him.

Two Simple, if everybody follows your logic then the Equine specie is going to die. If we have to wait to see the offspring of a horse before bredding to him then how do you make it work ?

I doubt that breeding to a horse like this is going to produce some horses that you have to sell to auctions or backyard unwanted horses.

I work for 3 breeders and thank god, some people have taken chances on younger stallions to breed their mares. If not we would all be out of business.

He is incredible :yes: . I would love to get to ride a horse like this in my life.

class
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:06 PM
Lovely animal, but a 3 year old hot stallion being chased by whips in a strange environment doesn't really tell you much what the gaits will be like at maturity. That goes for any horse - not just this one. In the 'in hand' video, it is impossible for the handler to get the horse to stand still. He is tap dancing all over his handler. And that's just what most babies would do in a strange situation. So its pretty clear that he was hot and wired for sound that day. And that does a lot to increase the expressiveness of gaits.


excuse me, are you talking about:

Video Clip of the 2006 Approval Champion, Stedinger x Quattro B

OR

Video Clip of the 2006 Approval Second Reserve Champion, Sandro Hit x Plaisir d'Amour?

because the rest of us are talking about: Video Clip of Quaterback in the Althengstparade

i'm also curious to hear exactly what it is that is preventing this horse from going out on the trail? i don't see the problem. i think it is a ridiculous criticism though. it is like saying, "yeah, he's nice, but he wouldn't pack my 4-year old daughter around, or he would suck pulling a cart, so he's not an all-arounder." that is stooping pretty low to find something, anything negative to say about him.

Tiki
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:13 PM
Two Simple, try looking at the video of Quarterback under saddle. There were no extra men in the ring - certainly not men with whips chasing him. It is an incredible video of a calm, supple, soft, flexible young stallion. Can he be collected with his naturally big gaits??? I say yes, absolutely and without question (well, with the right rider/trainer). Why??? Look at his trot, both working and lengthened. He is so full of softness, loft and suspension that he will surely put more elevation into his trot when he is muscled up and ready and do a lovely, cadenced, gorgeous collected trot. A horse that lengthens without suspension and is flat and just takes big strides without all that softness may be hard to collect. Quaterback?? I doubt it.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:18 PM
It is the horse of a lifetime. Get used to it, LOL!

siegi b.
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:23 PM
I think there are two factions here - one that appreciates a horse with good conformation and super gaits, and the other one that thinks anything with above average movement is "only good for dressage" and not trail riding and, therefore, must be bad. The problem is that they can't bring up the RK argument, so they have to resort to assumptive statements regarding a miserable future for said horse.

Give me a break!

Dalfan
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:25 PM
this is a great moving horse with tons of potential. if you think this is a bad mover with 'too much knee action' then i understand a lot of your other comments a lot better. all starting to fit into place now.

With you here. Incredible horse and don't understand the critisism. He's ONLY three and shows great gaits AND a super temperment. And just because he has such "lofty" gaits doesn't mean he would be hard to sit the trot, as long as his back is up and he is through. Probably can jump the moon as well, but who knows! Edited to add; I'm sure this rider is not asking for all the horse has got in those lengthenings.

The second clip is a different horse in the arena and the guys with whips. Obviously, its an inspection/show/competition. Maybe they should just let the horse in the arena and stand there and roll around. How in the world are they supposed to judge the gaits? Haven't you ever seen a free-jump setup? This is what it looks like to me.

ClaraLuisa
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:32 PM
Lord-- he looks like a different species from the ones I ride (or CAN ride:-))
He sets a beautiful standard.

TBKate
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:33 PM
As far as breeding, Give me a break ...
I would breed a mare any day to this horse. He has great bloodlines, he has an incredible movement, he is well put togethere and has pretty much everything you're looking for in a modern sporthorse. I don't care, if he hasn't won any blue ribbon or if we don't know yet if his offsping is Grand Prix level material. I don't see how you can not improve by breeding to a horse like him.

I'm with Mademoiselle here: Every stallion has to prove himself as a stud somehow, and if I had a mare worth breeding, I'd be volunteering to help with that first foal crop! He is balanced, attentive, and looks to be athletic enough to do anything he puts his mind to. One can only hope that he passes on this willingness and fabulous movement. It's worth taking a chance to find out!

witherbee
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:35 PM
Did they remove the clip? I don't see it on the list at that site...

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:43 PM
And if he does all that at THREE, just exactly how long has been working under saddle, and how long will he stay sound?? Or is that why dressage horses commonly receive hock injections as part of normal and customary care?

And yeah, I suppose just about any 3 year old stallion in that kind of an electrifying atmosphere and men chasing him with whips would have his ass on fire too.

Lovely animal though - just wish the warmblood people would quit doing what the quarter horse people do. Get 'em turned out by 3.

Wow. And I thought I was The Clueless Person on the Dressage Forum.

Brookes
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:45 PM
Absolutely awesome young stallion! I'm drooling here!

I do have a question though. . . when you click on that link and it shows the snow photo . . why does it look like there was a recent massacre in the snow??? Kinda scary lookin'!!! Geez did someone just slaughter a moose there!!

NoDQhere
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:46 PM
I went back and looked at the video again and I DID find something wrong with this horse. I CAN'T AFFORD HIM :lol:

Seriously though, this is a very nice horse who, IMO, will be capable of doing anything. Most likely, though, because of his movement he will become a dressage horse.

To the folks who think that because he is too good, that that, somehow makes him not good enough.............When you get beat in the dressage arena whilst riding those all arounders, please don't whine ;)

This is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for :yes:

tbgurl
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:54 PM
:o Holy crap, that horse moves like that naturally??? And he's only 3...how much training could he have had?

I'm just blown away by that. I didn't know a horse COULD move like that without training and/or artificial gadgets.

I'm sure glad I won't be competing against him.

Mary in Area 1
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:55 PM
Clearly some people are viewing the wrong videoclip; and clearly some people are viewing the videoclip through a very different videoplayer!

BLBGP
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:15 PM
Two Simple - you are looking at videos of three completely different horses. The Quaterback one is at the bottom, undersaddle. I just glanced at the other two videos on that site and the horses don't even look remotely alike...kinda like those old westerns where the cowboy's horse changes color every scene. I'm surprised an experienced horse person could miss that.

I certainly wouldn't kick that horse out of my barn. Trailriding potential or not, he's poised to excell in some Olympic discipline if all goes well. He will be fun to watch in the future.

ButterflyIris
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:16 PM
the horse is amazing...
but my curiosity is the rider's hat? It looks like an American policeman's hat.
Does anyone know the story behind it?

Tiki
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:20 PM
Notice that he's also wearing a uniform jacket. Many of the stallion videos you see from Germany the riders are wearing a uniform jacket. Don't know if they are the uniforms of the State Studs or not. Some have the short jackets and some have beautiful, long uniform jackets with the tails buttoned front to back with brass buttons to keep them out of the way.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:39 PM
"being chased with whips"

it is not exactly chasing them around. in fact, they aren't doing that at all. he's just keeping him out of the corner. this is typical of how they show horses not under saddle. that, in fact, is the LEAST amount of 'being chased by whips' i have ever seen in any auction - you see far more of it in american auctions selling arabs and morgans and the like.

first you complain they are worked too early, then complain that the horses under saddle are not displayed to your liking.

in fact, these youngsters are not showing the tense 'false passage' you used to brag about in your arab yearling, and are not moving like this because they are being chased with whips.

this is just how they move - light airy and beautifully.

for those turning up their noses at the amount of 'knee action', try teaching something with a daisy cutter shuffle to do upper level work some day. you won't enjoy yourself.

katarine
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:41 PM
I don't know dressage from dungarees, but that horse is achingly beautiful art in motion. Heart in your throat, words won't form, tears prick in your eyes, sort of beautiful.

Those of you bothering to converse with Too Simple, save your breath. She would argue that Miller Lite and CheezWhiz is far superior to champagne and caviar, if only because she just got a good deal on the former, at Costco.

knz66
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:41 PM
Good Gawd,
How can anyone disect this amazing creature?

all around - hello??? Your posting on a dressage forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Those that like him probably dont give a rats buttooie if he'd hack out.

But I will bet my bottom dollar that he does.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:48 PM
i haven't been on any 3 yr olds of this calibre, but did ride a lesser sort of 3 yr old of similar breeding, but not same quality, around at a big show in the warmup area a couple weeks ago.

shocking, really, the difference that carefully selected temperament can make in how readily a 3 year old accustoms himself to a show area. shocking. he just puffed himself up and said 'well, look at me!' and did his thing. not a nervous bone in his body.

of course, it makes a big difference who is riding the 3 year old, too, and who starts him. an experienced rider with years of show experience and years of experience with this sort of horse inspires a horse and calms him, and correct aids and retaining the attention of the animal make a huge difference in how they behave at these things.

of course the girl who had trained the one i tried, is a former YR now very quickly establishing herself in the top shows in the usa, and it was nothing for her to bring a 3 year old to a show. she's been doing it for a very long time. these people are very good at what they do.

mp
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:23 PM
IThose of you bothering to converse with Too Simple, save your breath. She would argue that Miller Lite and CheezWhiz is far superior to champagne and caviar, if only because she just got a good deal on the former, at Costco.

Yeah, and what good is White Star and caviar if you can't pack it on a trail ride? ;)

Two Simp and Daydream ... I'm all for versatility. I have a horse who won under saddle breed classes, halter classes, did great at our first dressage show AND trail rides like a champ. But he isn't a stallion quality WB with gaits like that.

The horse is a heart-stopping mover and looks to have a good mind, besides. Can't you just appreciate him for that?

purplnurpl
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:29 PM
in the trot he steps to the outside of his track with his outside hind.
Lengthen will be hard for him if he is not completely straight.



HAHAHAHHAAA!

freakin amazing. Perfect breeding and a little help from God.

and anyway...why would you want to WASTE a horse like this on trail rides???

Boy I bet he can JUMP! Holly Cows!

Bogey2
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:30 PM
And if he does all that at THREE, just exactly how long has been working under saddle, and how long will he stay sound?? Or is that why dressage horses commonly receive hock injections as part of normal and customary care?

:confused: gee, I had no idea that dressage horse were commonly getting hock injections.

katarine
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:34 PM
Bogey, don't feed the troll!

rileyt
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:36 PM
Geez guys... I don't particularly agree with Two Simple's thoughts, but can't we disagree like a bunch of adults?

I mean really, with the nasty comments, some of you might as well be calling her a no-nothing-redneck-Arab-owning-trail-rider.

Are the parallels to Miller Light and Costco really relevant or necessary?

It reeks of the same elitist snobbery that chases so many people off this board. I agree he's beautiful, but do we have to go to the "if you disagree, you clearly know NOTHING" argument? I thought I left that behind in 7th grade.

Chevalnoir
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:42 PM
Well, for me personally, I like a nice all round horse that's safe on the trails and will pack my kids around the ring on the odd occasion when they feel like getting on a horse.

But it really is totally irrelevant whether this horse could/would be able to do that job, because there are millions of nice, quiet trail horses out there, and only a handful of absolutely top level competitive dressage horses. Which means that nice quiet trail horses are relatively cheap, and horses like this are unaffordable for ordinary mortals anyhow, so it's not like there's any chance whatsoever of some amateur snapping up this boy and turning him into a trail horse!

I will never own a horse like this, I will never even sit on a horse like this, and at my age I feel no particular desire to.

But I hope I never get so old and bored that I can't look at a horse like this and feel my heart beat a bit faster, and feel a tingle down my spine. Horses like this are like a piece of sculpture by Michelangelo - you don't have to have it sitting in your living room in order to appreciate it and feel the world is a better place for its very existence.

You don't have to ride a horse like this to be thrilled by its presence.

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:06 PM
Two Simp and Daydream ... I'm all for versatility. I have a horse who won under saddle breed classes, halter classes, did great at our first dressage show AND trail rides like a champ. But he isn't a stallion quality WB with gaits like that.

The horse is a heart-stopping mover and looks to have a good mind, besides. Can't you just appreciate him for that?

I give up. Please go back and read what I wrote carefully. I did appreciate him for his movement, his talent, and his looks but I only said he wasn't for me. OK???? Did I say one thing about his mind anywhere? NO!

I will publically say for everyone to read so you all will let it go...and quit harping that someone dared to express an opinion other than one you agree with.

I AM SORRY I OFFERED ANY CRITICISM OR NEGATIVE COMMENTARY WHATSOEVER OF THIS PHENOMINAL EXAMPLE OF A WARMBLOOD!!! HE IS PERFECT, WONDERFUL, ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT FLAW, AND WE SHOULD ALL DROOL MINDLESSLY OVER HIS PERFECTION WITHOUT SUGGESTING THAT HE MIGHT NOT BE THE HORSE OF OUR DREAMS.

Now...can you all please just respect someone's right to have a different opinion and state it once in a while?

Horsecrazy27
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:11 PM
Really? Hmm.

Even though he is unproven? Even though there are no other offspring to compare to? How do you know his genetic prepotence? Are you certain he will pass on big elastic gaits to his offspring? Not all do you know. Are you certain that he will complement your mare's weaknesses? How do you know what traits he will throw and which he won't?

This is exactly how so many babies end up on auction blocks and standing in back yards in knee deep mud with halter scars.

Everybody says "OOoooooooh!! Preeeeeeeeeeeety pony!!!! And he has BALLS! Come on mare, get in the trailer!!"

If you have a boy that moves like that....how do you find out what he is going to throw unless he gets babys on the ground??????

That usually takes mares????????

If you are a responsible breeder, like myself, you would pick a mare that would match his type------and look for a stallion that would improve gaits----he got, what a 10 on gaits--my mare got 8's and 9's...that is improvement and near perfection.

I'm sure we wouldn't have a donkey crossing the two.

:)

Did you miss your happy and appriciative pill today? I ALMOST forgot to take mine----- But, luckily for all around me, I did! :)

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:14 PM
day dream believer, it looks more like yiou are having a hissy fit because someone didn't agree with YOU than the other way around.

Coreene
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:21 PM
Oh my. What an gorgeous horse. :yes: My ass hurt just watching that trot! :lol:

caffeinated
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:27 PM
I'm sure we wouldn't have a donkey crossing the two.


Are you kidding? I totally want a mule by this stallion! Don't discriminate against donkeys!

cosmos mom
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:31 PM
I think he's amazing! The rest of the controversy is a bit ...:o

Two Simple- I can't quite figure it out- Do you ride Dressage? Did you and now you have a great dislike for it? If you don't, what do you do now with you horse(s)? You seem to have a really strong and kind of negative spin on all of the dressage threads...NOT trying to attack- just curious! Sometimes I look at a pic or a video and I just don't see it the way you do at all!

Sandy M
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:32 PM
Are you kidding? I totally want a mule by this stallion! Don't discriminate against donkeys!


LOL That would be a hinny, not a mule. Gotta be donkey sire/mare dam for a mule. I'm told hinnies are more difficult to produce. I assume they use AI these days. Stallions apparently don't particularly care to breed jennies. Friend was looking at some v. nice saddle mules and asked about hinnies and the mule breeder said, "Oh, no, you don't want a hinny" but he didn't elaborate.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:34 PM
This is an absolutely incredible horse by ANY standard - absolutely incredible. Also very impressive how quiet he seems to be in face of a huge, roaring crowd.

Thanks for posting this video - I've forwarded the link to several friends who I think will appreciate this horse as much as most of us here have.

Lisa Cook
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:39 PM
Repeat after me - HOCK INJECTIONS.

The horse is bloody 3 years old ferchristsake. THREE. He's doing all this under saddle at 3??? When did they start him? 2? 2 1/2?

Just how long do you think it takes to get a young horse going w/t/c under saddle, anyway? That's all this horse is doing. It's not a year and a half long process...with a competent trainer.

shade
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:40 PM
He is breathtaking. I bet he has a fabulous jump in him also. So so athletic. And I'm no dressage diva, I'm from H/J land.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:40 PM
Two Simple, I have a news flash for you.

Starting horses at 2 is not a new trend. Back in the days when horses were true beasts of burden, there weren't that many folks who could afford the luxury of waiting until their horse reached the ripe old age of 3 or 4 to start them.

Capriole
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:41 PM
He's doing all this under saddle at 3??? When did they start him? 2? 2 1/2?
You don't know this. A really nice horse (not even nearly the quality of this one!) ridden by a tactful rider can produce these results after a very few number of short rides. I see really nice babies who are basically on the bit WTC after a dozen rides. Good horse + good rider = it happens naturally. It may be hard for you to believe if you've never seen it, but it's true.

cosmos mom
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:41 PM
As far as hock injections go- they are common in eventing, and the h/j world as well- also there is no scientific or even solid anticdotal evidence that shows that starting a horse w/t/c at 3 causes early deterioration. In fact, it some studies it showed that early work increased bone density in comparative groups of young TBs ages 2-3 yeas old.



Repeat after me - HOCK INJECTIONS.

The horse is bloody 3 years old ferchristsake. THREE. He's doing all this under saddle at 3??? When did they start him? 2? 2 1/2?

Maybe we should just start breaking weanlings next. Hell, the QH people do it. Why not you too?

Well heck - just get on 'em at 2 months old. They're tiny and naieve there. Not much chance of getting bucked off ey? :rolleyes: :sleepy:

Ridge Runner
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:44 PM
day dream believer, it looks more like yiou are having a hissy fit because someone didn't agree with YOU than the other way around.

No I'm just tired of being misquoted by elistist DQ's like you who are appalled that anyone might criticize on hair on that horse's body.

Capriole
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:48 PM
I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay.
Then you boarded at terrible barns. I know of NO dressage barns which inject 4 or 5 year olds. Or even that routinely inject half the barn regardless of age. Is my experience any more or less valid than yours?

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:51 PM
Two Simple, is there any point in trying to get you to listen to anyone other than yourself? I submit that you don't know quite as much about these horses as you think you do.

For one, these horses aren't all receiving hock injections. In fact, very few of them are receiving hock injections. In the FEI classes, there is no tolerance for any medication at all, and the people who have these horses don't keep them if they need alot of expensive 'help' to keep going. Why? BEcause it's a small world and its a long road to the FEI, and the information gets around that small world very quickly. Horse xyz is being medicated, don't buy him. Sell him to an American :)

I am not sure what connections you have to Dr. Moller and the other European dressage trainers who have these horses, or how much time you have spent working in their barns, but I suspect you have no connection and have spent no time in their barns.

I very, very seriously doubt that you are aware of what treatment these horses do or don't get.

I would very seriously doubt that these horses are in work at all, in fact, certainly nothing like what Americans do.

They get ridden a little bit, yes. But most likely, they have been under saddle for a total of about 6 weeks when they go to these things. They have a saddle put on them at 2 1/2, they walk around. Then they go out for the winter; in fact, they are very rarely even very halter broke at 2 1/2, in the European tradition, which adamantly insists they need to be left alone to be horses. No longeing, no round penning, no long lining, barely halter broke. Go to one of these farms some time if you think you know so much about how these horses are handled, in general, they are handled NOT, lol.

At 3 or 3 1/2, when they are basically as wild as little furry indians, some brave soul gets on them, and the laughs ensue and the riders fly through the air while the very happy, very athletic horses have their fun.

A friend of mine got a 3 yr old from a big auction. Imagine her shock when she brought him home, 'This thing is totally wild!' Frankly the animal was EXTREMELY happy, and not at all broke. It thought the saddle and bridle being on was time to unlease all his most EXTREMELY happy moments.

The auction horses are worked on a straight line, and a little track is dug for them because they don't know how to turn yet...LOL...that has changed little even recently, and the whole reason is because these horses AREN'T worked much young.

I can say one thing for sure; they are not 'confirmed' or 'trained' in any sense of the word at this point, by any stretch of the imagination. If yiou had ever sat on one, you'd know that. These horses get very, very little work at all before these things.

What they are doing is completely up to the skill of the rider, who has probably had an hour or two to get to know the horse; at best, a couple weeks and a dozen or so rides. It was from European dressage trainers that I got all the advice not to longe, not to work, not to break my youngster early, not to overdo with him at a young age.

What you see here, is completely raw talent. These horses aren't at all 'broke' like American dressage horses for amateurs are expected to be, and they have very little training.

The flavor of a wine doesn't come from the wine being manipulated or fermented or fiddled with. The flavor of a wine comes from the grape itself. And that is exactly what you are seeing here - pure juice.

They definitely don't have a saddle on them nor are they being longed at 1 1/2 years old, like your horse, which you posted pictures of here last year, at 1 1/2, on a longe line, with a saddle on. In fact, recalling that, it's highly ironic to me that you are complaining about these horses being worked too young.

shade
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:51 PM
Someone on this thread (too lazy to go back and find out who, sorry)that TB's race at 2-3 and are washed up at 6-7...ummm..not true. Look at all the OTTB's that go on to other careers after racing and are sound and working well into their teens and sometimes longer. Or how about some of the canter horses you see for sale still racing at 9 or 10 yrs..sound. So don't give me that crap. There is a big difference between STARTING a horse young and POUNDING them when they are young. Also there are some horses that have been started very late and not pounded on that still need their hocks done. Sorrry some of the comments just really annoyed me. I rarely come over here but saw the title and was curious. So glad I did or I would have missed seeing this incrediable horse.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:54 PM
You don't know this. A really nice horse (not even nearly the quality of this one!) ridden by a tactful rider can produce these results after a very few number of short rides. I see really nice babies who are basically on the bit WTC after a dozen rides. Good horse + good rider = it happens naturally. It may be hard for you to believe if you've never seen it, but it's true.

Absolutely. Most of the horses that my trainer has started (at age 3) are going round and on the bit within 10 or 15 rides (of maybe 15-20 minutes each). This is not a difficult thing to accomplish if you've done all the right groundwork, and you know, actually know what you're doing.

All this horse is doing is walk-trot-canter and asking for maybe a little push from behind. Not a big deal. Any of the above horses that my trainer has started could accomplish (and do - the most recent has been under saddle for less than four months is going to his first show in January) this...

In addition, it's almost the end of the year. He was born in 2003. That means, in reality, he IS actually almost four. I bet he has less than 4 or 5 months under saddle, and maybe 3 months or so of ground work before that. That would put him at 7 months or so of work if my assumption is correct - meaning April or May of this year. That would put him at almost exactly 3 years old, possibly older, depending on when he was born. What's the problem?

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:54 PM
I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay. It's sad. In fact, it's way more than sad. It's abuse as far as I'm concerned. But hey - that's just me. :winkgrin:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that hock injections are cash cows for some veterinary practices. Horse takes a short step, distraught owner calls vet du jour in the barn, vet comes out, says "hock injections," uneducated owner says do it.

Don't blame this on training methods, Two Simple. It's much more complicated than that. And calling hock injections abuse? Please. You know darn well that they are far from it. But let's not go down that road.

I still think the under saddle video is one of the most gorgeous things I have seen in a long, long time. And I want to thank the OP for sharing it with us.

cosmos mom
Nov. 29, 2006, 03:57 PM
People get these injections as well. Mainly athletes. It's hardly abuse to treat a chronic issue. I had a TB that had chronic DJD as a 5 year old- He was broke slowly at 4. The vet said that many young horses have DJD, and hock spurs NOT related to work, but genetics and confirmation. If I had never asked my TB to compete and just let him laze about in the field and trail ride, I may have never noticed that he had bad hocks. There are probably a lot of people that do not compete in a particular dicipline never notice that their horse may have DJD because they never asked them to work that hard. As far as making the assumption that early work causes DJD- you are making an assumtion that the medical or research community will not stand behind- so it's kind of unfair.


I boarded in a couple different dressage barns for a while. I'd say over half the horses were getting injected. And some of them were just babies - 4, or 5 years old. People talk about it like its nothing. Like its just normal protocol - like grooming or feeding hay. It's sad. In fact, it's way more than sad. It's abuse as far as I'm concerned. But hey - that's just me. :winkgrin:

MistyBlue
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:03 PM
I'm not even a dressage rider but have known about 100 dressage horses competing...two were getting injections. They were 10 and 16 years old.

The horse in the video is doing w/t/c. At 3 years old. He's not collected, not doing anything he shouldn't be doing. A decent trainer with a horse of good mind can get that in 60 days of training easily. Seeing a horse behaving in an arean doing just walk, trot and canter at 3 years of age in no way indicates he's been ridden/trained/worked heavily from a young age. He's most likely had a rider on his back for 60-90 days, and he's most likely ridden once in a rare while. He'll probably be put back on turnout until next spring, many trainers get a basic start on a 3 year old in their late 3rd year, then give them the winter off and restart in spring. It's a common training method that works quite well. Why is he being shown off at this venue? Well look at him...not to mention that it's better to get them out there slowly and happily at this age to ensure a relaxed professional show career instead of having a spook-moster 5 year old going out for the first time.
As for horses being "chased" with bags on whips...what is an Arabian freestyle class? As long as the horse is showing no actual signs of fear...it's a very common and NON abusive way to see their movement. And yes, that's natural movement. Natural movement is not what they do in turnout plodding from hay pile to water supply and back with lower lip hanging and half asleep.
It is not the vast majority of dressage horses being injected...just as it's not the same with WP horses getting heads tied or jumpers being poled or whatever such thing for each discipline. If that's what folks are seeing as "the average" in their area...they're in a pretty odd area.

kkj
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=mademoiselle;2027276]Come on people ...

"Walk, trot, canter and even lengthening , is not going to ruin a horse for later."

A tall man sitting the trot on a 3 year old and riding it in such an up-frame can very well do damage to the horse. It may not but many times it has.

"It's better for a horse to work 20 minutes a day with a job than just going crooked with his nose up in the air around for 30 minutes at the walk and trot because he is just a baby."

I did not ride my horse like that when she was three but I did not ride her in such an up-frame or sit the trot on her either. The back is not done developing until they are 8.

"He is an amazing horse period. I'm sure we would make an upper level eventing horse and probably a Grand Prix jumper. He is balanced, he has an incredible canter."

I don't think he would be an upper level eventer. He has too much air time and wastes too much energy on those fabulous gaits. Maybe he can jump, maybe he can't. A lot of Grand Prix dressage horses are terrible jumpers.

"As far as breeding, Give me a break ...
I would breed a mare any day to this horse. He has great bloodlines, he has an incredible movement, he is well put togethere and has pretty much everything you're looking for in a modern sporthorse. I don't care, if he hasn't won any blue ribbon or if we don't know yet if his offsping is Grand Prix level material. I don't see how you can not improve by breeding to a horse like him."

He may turn out to be the breeding stallion of the century. He may not. An incredible stallion with incredible breeding does not always produce well. Take for example the foal reports on Lingh. Somepeople will breed to the nice young one with good bloodlines and some will wait to see his first couple of foal crops.

I love this horse. I hope he does hold up and becomes the dressage star his breeding and potential show he could become.

Horsecrazy27
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:10 PM
Are you kidding? I totally want a mule by this stallion! Don't discriminate against donkeys!

Do you know how much a ass/this stallion would sell for!?????!!

I have seen the wb/ass (is that the correct term????) sell better and more than the pure wb? My vet. just loves them. She said they are hard to find----and she competes in Eventing with it. :)

I still am amazed for some strange reason. I think they are cute---sweet, but I'll stick with the full wb / HORSE....ha ha ha.

There is another lady here who has a wb/ass cross.....she does just dressage with..... it is adorable!!!!

:)

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:12 PM
i'm afraid yoiu don't understand.

he isn't 'riding the horse in an up-frame'.

that is how the horse goes around naturally. if that horse was loose, he'd go around just like that. that's just HIM, as one person i worked with used to say.

like i said, this is the juice. pure juice. 100 % pure juice.

and to some extent, it is how all horses would go around - balanced and natural - if they didn't have their heads artificially held down by riders with some strange training ah...'philosophy'.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:19 PM
Collected????? Why, bless your heart, you haven't even seen "collected".

Ever watch a horse snorting and blowing and trotting around when first turned out on a chilly autumn morning? It moves very similarly to the horse in the video. Lofty gaits, gorgeous.

But neither the horse in the field nor the horse in the video are what could be considered "collected" - at least I don't think so.

Edited for clarification, and I still botched it up. Hopefully someone understands what I am saying and can maybe do a better job of explaining what I mean!

katarine
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:21 PM
I am cracking UP at the idea that I'm criticizing TS because I'm a DQ.

NOTE: I'm a QH and TWH owning noboby in Alabama who does nothing but trail ride. I have sat in a dressage saddle, once. I was, I think, 16 years old at the time. That was 1986.

I am critical of her because the only thing in the horse world she seems to think is ok, is to trail ride a horse who was never sat upon until they were 4+ years old, in a hackamore, barefoot. Nothing else can compete. Nothing else is OK.

Too Simple, indeed.

egontoast
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:47 PM
Thanks to whoever posted the video. Lovely horse.

That's not the dreaded 'passagey trot'. It's easy to tell the 'passagey trot' because the horse gets stuck and cannot do transitions within the gait. They really get stuck. If you have ever seen it you won't mistake it for anything else. This boy does not have that problem. Lovely...

No doubt he'd be a poor race horse and he may not excel at saddle seat or cattle penning or barrel racing and who knows how he is on the trails - perhaps he's a prince on the trail- but he appears to be quite fine for the job for which he has been bred and trained .

And peeps, look , the ignore thing works great on the troll so if you guys would stop responding to the crap we ignorers would not have to read it! Help us out here. Trolls love attention . And yes, it's a troll.

So now the troll will press her alert button. Please note I have named no one. Shoe fit thingy.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:53 PM
Done, oh wise one. Thank you for the reminder.

Back to the regularly scheduled channel. Educate me please.

What breed is this bad boy, anyway?

kkj
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:56 PM
i'm afraid yoiu don't understand.

he isn't 'riding the horse in an up-frame'.

that is how the horse goes around naturally. if that horse was loose, he'd go around just like that. that's just HIM, as one person i worked with used to say.

and to some extent, it is how all horses would go around - balanced and natural - if they didn't have their heads artificially held down by riders with some strange training ah...'philosophy'.

slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one. She is also quite talented (though granted not in this horse's league. Still many trainers and judges have said she has definite potential to be competitive up to Grand Prix.) My horse at 4 is going quite well. She will show 5 year old FEI next season. I do not hold her down with some strange training philosphy. Nor did I carry my reins so short and my hands so high and sit on her at 3.

That is not the horse's natural carriage. He carries himself much differently and moves much differently for that matter when he is free. Just look at the free video of him. Also towards the end of the video it looks like he is tired in this carriage and wants to stretch down more.

There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:59 PM
Done, oh wise one. Thank you for the reminder.

Back to the regularly scheduled channel. Educate me please.

What breed is this bad boy, anyway?
He's listed as a German Warmblood on allbreed, but both parents are Brandenburgs. :)

Equinetech
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:02 PM
slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one. She is also quite talented (though granted not in this horse's league. Still many trainers and judges have said she has definite potential to be competitive up to Grand Prix.) My horse at 4 is going quite well. She will show 5 year old FEI next season. I do not hold her down with some strange training philosphy. Nor did I carry my reins so short and my hands so high and sit on her at 3.

That is not the horse's natural carriage. He carries himself much differently and moves much differently for that matter when he is free. Just look at the free video of him. Also towards the end of the video it looks like he is tired in this carriage and wants to stretch down more.

There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.Are you smoking crack? Even I can tell that is a different horse in the loose video! It says so right in the link that you click. Quaterback is by QuatermanXBrandenburg. The loose videos are all of various other stallions (A Sandro Hit son, A Stedinger son, and a Florencio son)

OF COURSE the horse in the loose video moved differently it is not the same horse!

Jeez! I show Arabians and half-Arabians in SHIH, WP, HP and I team rope and I can see that this 3yo is one to watch.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:03 PM
Exactly kkj!

He is a very lovely animal with gorgeous gaits. But there is absolutely no telling what he will pass on to babies and what he won't. And this is not a strong indication of what his gaits will develop to be.

That is the case with any stallion. There was no telling what your horse would end up like either when his or her breeder put the dam in foal. :lol: :lol: :lol:

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:05 PM
slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one.

Where did you find a conformation shot of him? I would like to see it.

Thank you.

Sabine
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:13 PM
There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.


I think you are right- and if this was my horse I probably wouldn't do this too often either- but- let's be honest- this horse is the friggin talk of the dressage world right now- and wouldn't I like to be the owner that gets all these breeding fees (I wonder how much his fee is??).
Part of this whole game is the MONEY!! My friends- quick news flash- it's what makes the industry- did anyone read how the Hanoverians are still tops on the dressage winning list...well- if we get this boy out to breed- in 5 to 10 years it might just be the Oldenburgs that are the winning dressage registry- and don't even remind me of the financial impact that could have...all it takes is one more Weltmeyer- or Olympic Ferro....just look at things from that point of view and it's easier to understand that they do get ridden at 3.
(inform yourself about the Koerung...that's another story..)

BLBGP
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:17 PM
slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one.

Is your horse built similarly to Quaterback or one of the young stallions in the other videos? I, too, would love to see the conformation shots you found. I'd love to see Quaterback in particular.

Madam Cleo
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:19 PM
Madam Cleo, all knowing spiritualist to the cosmos, is quite certain there many, many back bayou trail horses that are not well suited to dressage. Even those of you wit out de sight can find them at any dressage show, mes enfants. If you can't tell by watching, just ecoutez. Their riders be the ones who shout the loudest "Dressage, it is for every horse." Bien sur, dressage is for every horse, oui, but trail riding, it is not, I guess.

Horsecrazy27
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:25 PM
slc I think I understand just fine. I have a horse that is built very similar to this one. She is also quite talented (though granted not in this horse's league. Still many trainers and judges have said she has definite potential to be competitive up to Grand Prix.) My horse at 4 is going quite well. She will show 5 year old FEI next season. I do not hold her down with some strange training philosphy. Nor did I carry my reins so short and my hands so high and sit on her at 3.

That is not the horse's natural carriage. He carries himself much differently and moves much differently for that matter when he is free. Just look at the free video of him. Also towards the end of the video it looks like he is tired in this carriage and wants to stretch down more.

There are people who believe this kind of riding is fine for a 3 year old who is very talented and people who don't. I just don't think it is OK. Doesn't make me a moron.


I thought there are 3 video's with 3 seperate horses? I only saw one of this guy undersaddle?

With WB stallions ---in Europe....many --not all, are started early for the stallion testings-----to go through the 70 day test--get those scores that we talk about for the rest of their lives. Because we breed to these big boys---it kinda keeps promoting itself....(I'm not against it or far it---- I love warmbloods and appriciate what they go through to get approved) I must add they have been doing it for over 100 years.....many of these guys last for a very long time and have a beautiful happy life ---as said above, they are started...then they get a break----but, they have ways of getting them approved---this is one of them. Bad comes with the good....you know. Unless they change the oldest horse at a 70 testing from what it is now to a much older horse---stallions will be started this way. I DO know from personal experiance, that if a stallion (if presented in hand) looks too immature, they will tell them to bring it back the following year. So, maturity is considered.

I think they know what they are doing.. :) ...they (Europeans) have long been a source of who we look to for education in this sport. ????? :) Maybe I'm speaking of my own feelings there.....but, I sure see a ton of people at the clinics of certian respected European speaking riders. :)

This guy is AMAZING!!!!!!! And sure you don't know what he is going to throw, but through the indexing of his breeding lines----you get an idea. I'm guessing he has a high dressage index----which means he may have a high percentage of throwing his gaits----all in all, he himself is a very fancy boy-----and since he is only 50 % of a resulting foal, I'd be more careful of the mare to use.....since sometimes those mares can be pretty strong in what they throw.......I'd volunteer for a breeding study--they can use all three of my girls and see what happens.

didgery
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:26 PM
I don't know dressage from dungarees, but that horse is achingly beautiful art in motion. Heart in your throat, words won't form, tears prick in your eyes, sort of beautiful.


Well, it might just be hormones (I'm pregnant, therefore volatile) but that video made me cry. My two year old daughter is hanging on my knee saying, "sad horsie movie?" Something about him just makes me choke up!

Gorgeous. I don't see anything there that makes me doubt that this dressage horse could also do other things well.

purplnurpl
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:28 PM
Anyone negatively speaking....your just jealous.

The horse probably had a saddle tossed on it a month before hand. The rider was probably bucked off during his quick warm up. The horse is moving all by himself. SLC beat me to the punch. DO YOU SEE HIS HIND END???? At the trot it’s all over the place with circumduction. He's not schooled. Not one bit.
God made him the way he is. He is naturally uphill. The rider is just bouncing along very quietly with him. Gosh!!!

So what if he gets tired by the end of the ride. He should be tired! Look what he is doing?!!! I think it’s damn nice that he wants to stretch down!

And you know what else. I bet he went back home and was turned out for the winter.

I guess this thread is a great example of why we are Americans…and they are Europeans- The Kings of dressage and breeding.

haha, don't bash the people and methods that produce the sprems that make good horsies of us to import....

I am now running for cover.

neVar
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:31 PM
LOVELY horse

As others have said- it's obvious he doesn't have much work done with him- he's not very strong and that was a VERY short period of work- i'm doubting he had much warm up befor it either. You can tell he hasn't been schooled much by his hind end- look how wise he is behind- he's still not quite strong enough to do what he wants to do naturally :O)

What a good boy to be so well behaved in that environment. the 3 year old stage is so fun when they look so awesome- are so uphill (unfortunatly tends to come with a 'ooh god i think i may die if i do anything wrong' feeling as they are so NOT broke!) God knows i have photos of me on Texas as a 3 year old and his movement is amazing... they loose it a abit as they get more connected and through- but it comes back once the collection comes into play!

Great boy- can't wait to see how he goes in a couple of years

kkj
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:33 PM
Equinetech I wish I had a good excuse like smoking crack, but no. I don't have my contacts in and only watched the beginning of the first link. You're right even a non horse person could tell it is not the same horse. One is bay, one is chestnut, different markings etc etc.

Still I hold that Quarterback will not carry himself the same way free that he is in that video.

I too think he is the most amazing 3 year old right now.

Sabine I totally agree with you. $$ is a big motivator as are people's dreams of having the next Weltmeyer or whoever. It would be very hard to have a horse like that and resist the temptation to push him a bit, especially because he is so willing and everything looks so easy for him. Well I hope he makes it, because he is truly a joy to watch.

DownYonder
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:03 PM
LOVELY horse

As others have said- it's obvious he doesn't have much work done with him-

Quaterman won the 3 y/o stallion class at the Bundeschampionat this year, so he has obviously been under saddle for a while. If he is like most young stallions in Germany, he was actually probably started early last winter.

This horse is ethereal. As someone said - he has only a passing acquaintance with gravity.

But people - he is a CHESTNUT!! How can he be so fantastic? Everyone knows that only dark-coated dressage horses are worth a flip! :lol:

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:05 PM
i wouldn't allow my 3 year old to be ridden for an hour this way, but 10 minutes, 20 minutes 3 x a week, if it was THIS 3 year old, yes, though at home, the reins would be slightly longer as he wouldn't be so up. if it were a less balanced, less athletic horse, uh uh. and i would stretch him like at the end of this.

i would rather not ride my 3 year old stuck in some artificially lowered frame that would have to be all reschooled, and would actually ruin his balance and strain him even more.

chicki
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:08 PM
Really? Hmm.

Even though he is unproven? Even though there are no other offspring to compare to? How do you know his genetic prepotence? Are you certain he will pass on big elastic gaits to his offspring? Not all do you know. Are you certain that he will complement your mare's weaknesses? How do you know what traits he will throw and which he won't?

This is exactly how so many babies end up on auction blocks and standing in back yards in knee deep mud with halter scars.

Everybody says "OOoooooooh!! Preeeeeeeeeeeety pony!!!! And he has BALLS! Come on mare, get in the trailer!!"

Honestly, I think that is the dumbest comment I have ever heard in regards to horse breeding. Seriously.
For one, if nobody bred to new stallions on the assumption that they will produce shit because they are unproven, we would be left without a breed, because the proven stallions would die off.
Secondly, the horse has EVERYTHING other than being proven going for him(not just balls!). He clearly has the mind, the talent, the rideability and impecable breeding, the look and most likely the conformation although I would like to see some confo shots.
If I could go out to an environment which you are refering too and find offspring of top european talent then I would be a VERY VERY happy woman, however, it doesn't happen, and it never will. And on top of that, if he is a shitty producer the people who own the kind of mares that are bred to him will stop, and choose something else.

I am with the other lady who said that they want to breed their mare to him. The moment he is liscenced Hano..I know a certain little don fred filly that is going to be having a date;)
There is NOTHING negative about this horse in regards to sport that can be gleaned from this video.

YoungFilly
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:14 PM
I would so breed to this stallion so fast, proven or not. He is just such an example of exactly what most people would want in a top dressage horse.

But, I do have one thing about the video that I do not like, and it is the sitting trot on a 3yr old. I think if it was only for a short amount of time to show the horse, ok, but if this is what happens in his daily training, I would really think this could actually ruin his gaits in the long run. It is a *fact* that you can shutdown a horse back by sitting to much if the muscles are not strong enough to support it. I can't imagine how this horses back could be strong enough at that age to endure 30 minutes of sitting. But, we can't judge anyones training on such a short clip, and its obvious that the horse has been started really well.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:16 PM
i really don't see the guy sitting down on the back. he's doing that 'float and grin' that they do with the youngsters.

Aggie4Bar
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:30 PM
Two words: air pockets.

He's not sitting down the horse's back, and he's working a lot harder to be out the way than it looks. ;)

MyReality
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:33 PM
Let me be the guinea pig please! I will let you know if his offspring is any good... I actually know of a certain mare, lovely mare.

Everyone could tell he is quite green and the rider is not riding him very hard. We are talking about a top trainer/rider on a top horse. He is not going to ruine the horse any time soon... and yes I do have faith in the German system.

Actually I was told, by someone who was a working student at a German farm. He said the horses will be groomed by the grooms, assembly line style... warmed up in hot walker... then only ridden for 15 minutes to 30 minutes at a time for schooling. This is to prepare them to peak for the 5 minute needed for a show. (I didn't ask what farm nor did I know if this is a common practice in Germany.)

About training styles... I know someone who has a family breeding farm in Portugal. His grandfather is a friend with Nuno Oliveira, and he watched Nuno ride. He said Nunno would sit on a young horse nobody has sat on before... without doing any activie riding, simply by shifting his weight, and that alone will change how the horse balance himself. Within 10 rides, the horse was doing shoulder in. There are trainers with such skill, I would not speak so soon as to how their horses should be trained.

abrant
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:54 PM
Wow...

My comments - if I had this horse. I would trail ride him, I would take him to the grocery store, I would nap on his back, you would have to drag my ass off him him and pry my cold dead fingers from his mane (they would be almost permantently imbeded there anyway, from trying to stay on his gaits, haha). But that's just me.

Also - It's a shame that some people can't tell how green this horse is. Trust me, the excitement of the moment is going to make it look like he is being worked much more advanced than he is. He's been taught to be respectful of the bridle and the moment has him so excited he's going forward into it. But you see stretching moments and bouncing moments that remind you that he is a total green bean. He hasn't been overworked. I took a 2 week off the track TB to a show and did a crossrails, I glanced in the arena mirror as we were cantering by... I was like, "OMG, we look SEXY". But that's not TRAINING, that's just a young horse dealing with a situation that is exciting for them. That wasn't even hardly decent riding, lol. Given the rider's obvious mastery, I would say that boy probably doesn't have 60 days undersaddle, if that.

And as far as his offspring ending up neglected because someone knew one lady who neglected a warmblood. Well, it happens, but it happens quite rarely. That lady had a perogative to neglect. It could have been a dog, for goodness sakes. It has no relevancy to this stallion.

~Adrienne

EqTrainer
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:04 PM
Absolutely gorgeous. I did notice though that the rider seemed quite cautious on the lengthings, or was it my imagination that he asked for them?

I would be cautious to even put my leg over the saddle.

YoungFilly
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:24 PM
I would be cautious to even put my leg over the saddle.


Hell no! Not me! I would ride that horse in a second! That would be like being asked if you would get into the space shuttle! A chance of a lifetime. :winkgrin:

Airpockets. That makes sense. Some of these riders can just make everything look effortless.

EqTrainer
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:25 PM
Hell no! Not me! I would ride that horse in a second! That would be like being asked if you would get into the space shuttle! A chance of a lifetime. :winkgrin: .

I would too.. but thoughtfully. Very thoughtfully.

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:55 PM
More people every day want to buy the Special One...In a week or so, the PSI Auction will have a ring full of them, bingo bingo,bingo, one after the other: a fantasy on four legs, boinging along.

These horses represent an industry, for sure--lots of people involved. Feeding them, mucking out their stalls, embroidering the blankets, providing the lights, the champagne--you name it.

Keeping the coffee machines filled in the indoor riding arena sitting rooms of Western Europe probably helps tip the entire world coffee industry's yearly gross.

For as many years as I can recall, the young stallions have been shown under saddle in the testing. The movement from 100 to 70 days is fairly recent.

So all the ones who are MATURE ENOUGH (pardon the caps but I dont know how to do bold) compete this way. And lots of them go on to solid careers, just as some of them...do not.

I do not believe there is a horseperson alive who could have Quaterback and NOT show him to the rest of the world.

Christian Flamm is my new poster boy for riding the young ones so well that it looks as though they are really trained--he has been doing this for several years now.

The point is: if one owns a stallion, one shows that stallion to the rest of the world. if one owns a typical stallion, there is money spent on ads, on shows, on photos,etc etc.

if one owns a Quaterback, in the ultra-competitive world of German breeding stallions, one goes to Bunderschampionnat, one goes to one's OWN stallion show..and one comes away with people standing up and clapping, spreading the word far and wide that another magical one may just have passed in front of your very eyes.

The future is all fantasy right now: like other horses, he could get hurt, he could prove to not breed true, he could go on to greater glory--the whole road is in front of him.

But he is meant to be a breeding stallion--so it seems to me, before the road becomes reality--with all that reality might hold--this is a good time to promote him, promote the breeding practices, promote the industry.

fiona
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:04 PM
I'd sell my soul for that horse along with most of the riders in europe!
I'd trade body organs just for a ride.

class
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:06 PM
Hell no! Not me! I would ride that horse in a second! That would be like being asked if you would get into the space shuttle! A chance of a lifetime. :winkgrin:


hate to be the one to break this to you, but space shuttles actually suck. yes, they might look cool and be the ride of a life time, but there's no trunk to carry your groceries in and they can't even pull a horse trailer... they're just not very good all-around vehicles.

DownYonder
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:32 PM
Excellent, post, Canyonoak. Thank you!

I particularly like this part: "The future is all fantasy right now." How very, very true!

And it will be interesting to see whose stallion show this boy ends up in come Jan/Feb. I'm betting that there are more than a few major German stallion stations trying to pry him away from the Brandenburg state stud. It might be in Brandenburg's best interests to lease him to a big stud like Shockemoehle or Boeckmann, or even to sell him. But then again, it might be even better for them to keep him. He won't get as many mares if he stands there, but I bet German breeders would flock to him no matter where he is for at least the first few years. You know the old saying - "Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door."

poetaperegrinus
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:50 PM
May an innocent ask a question? Obviously this horse is visually spectacular, but I'm curious...what makes air-time so great? or, what makes suspension valuable from a dressage perspective? Is it just a desired visual, or indicative of something else, or valuable for training?


:)

Underdog
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:59 PM
CanyonOak....I'm a no name. I really try to bone up on blood.

But whats interesting with the dynamics happening here....are the same folks telling you they want an all rounder horse, or one that goes damn well on the trail or downhill...is looking for a specific phenotype or have certain *goals* in mind.

Isn't that what you are doing?

Goal specific. I thought that what a breeder does.

If not. I quit.

LOVELY animal. Congrats.

nero
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:01 PM
There are not enough superlatives in my vocabulary to describe this divine creature. I've never seen suspension like that, and the canter jump, my god, extraordinary. He is the uber horse. A dressage machine.

I'm not sure why anyone would judge an animal like this on not being versatile - and how does this person know he's not anyway? Does anyone try to diminish the greatness of Tiger Woods as a golfer because he can't programme a video recorder or lift 300 pounds in a gym???? Odd way to analyse an animal bred specifically to excel in dressage and progress the sport.

Thanks to Eurobreederstour for this clip, it has made my day. It made me think I'd found religion because I kept saying "oh my god' all through the footage!!

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:11 PM
well, I think everyone should thank eurobreederstour, aka EBT <g> because the video clip is from HER website and she did the video and put it up for the rest of us to enjoy.

and to answer the person who asked WHY this kind of movement is desirable to some of us-- it is desirable in the same way that Baryshnikov or Nurejev perform in a desirable manner. Or for that matter, almost any world-class athlete in top performance.

It is max effort under pressure, made to look easy.

The more suspension or air time, the more stored energy and power to be shaped. The more power to be shaped, the more expressive the movement.
The more expressive the movement, the more thrilling and enjoyable. In the case of a horse--IF the horse swings in the back, flexes the joints and moves forward, then the rider is carried in a buoyant, balanced fashion.

If the horse moves with this kind of power and swing, then the feeling is, as Dr. Klimke put it, 'to know what it is like to be a god."

Sakura
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:14 PM
He is a really magnificent horse, and I would put him in my barn if I won the lotto.

But... his way of going is reminiscent of some Arabian Park horses that I have seen. I am concerned that the very thing that turns me off in the Arabian world is becoming fashionable in the Dressage arena.

chicki
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:28 PM
But... his way of going is reminiscent of some Arabian Park horses that I have seen. I am concerned that the very thing that turns me off in the Arabian world is becoming fashionable in the Dressage arena

See that is just wrong though. I used to show arabs..alot/nationally. Park horses are something TOTALLY different. First of all, arabian park horses move in an extremely artificial way with artifical contraptions. Arabians dont come out of the mare moving like that. On top of that, they display very little self carriage, they rarely are capable of much overtrack it any at all, and certainly not while they are being raced around the arena with their legs flailing all over the place. They are also always very hollow looking. Again, I have seen these plenty of times, I bought an old EP horse from Mike whelihan as he lived down the road from me, and I have seen plenty of them work. It's not even comparable. The only similarity is that this horse lifts its knees up as part of its motion. Thats it.

YoungFilly
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:42 PM
hate to be the one to break this to you, but space shuttles actually suck. yes, they might look cool and be the ride of a life time, but there's no trunk to carry your groceries in and they can't even pull a horse trailer... they're just not very good all-around vehicles.

Ugh, I hate to agree with you about the space shuttle. They need to redesign them, our old ones should never fly again IMO. And I would be the happiest girl on the planet to ride in the most modern space shuttle. Or to be able to ride a horse like this!:D

Equit8tor
Nov. 29, 2006, 09:44 PM
Be still my heart! I wish not for the money to own him, but for the talent to ride him as he should be ridden..........

Sakura
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:08 PM
But... his way of going is reminiscent of some Arabian Park horses that I have seen. I am concerned that the very thing that turns me off in the Arabian world is becoming fashionable in the Dressage arena

See that is just wrong though. I used to show arabs..alot/nationally. Park horses are something TOTALLY different. First of all, arabian park horses move in an extremely artificial way with artifical contraptions. Arabians dont come out of the mare moving like that. On top of that, they display very little self carriage, they rarely are capable of much overtrack it any at all, and certainly not while they are being raced around the arena with their legs flailing all over the place. They are also always very hollow looking. Again, I have seen these plenty of times, I bought an old EP horse from Mike whelihan as he lived down the road from me, and I have seen plenty of them work. It's not even comparable. The only similarity is that this horse lifts its knees up as part of its motion. Thats it.

Relax... I only said it was reminicant, as in it reminded me... Don't diss the discipline because it's not your cup of tea. We all have a little rail bird in us.

A well trained, quality Park horse does not flail its legs all over the place. A good park horse has cadence, rhythm and balance. I know what you are talking about, I have seen the freaky ones. I had my horse with a trainer this past summer who is moving towards the sport horse arena from the Main Ring. In the Main Ring she did a lot of CEP and Park... she worked wonders with my dressage horse that my dressage trainer never could. I'm not telling you this because I think you care, but because as another learning human being you may find it interesting to know that there is more than one road to Rome.

atr
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:27 PM
Lovely--and still just a gangly boy!

Oh for the chance to ride a horse of that quality--not that anyone in their right mind would let me on an animal like that.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:30 PM
But... his way of going is reminiscent of some Arabian Park horses that I have seen. I am concerned that the very thing that turns me off in the Arabian world is becoming fashionable in the Dressage arena

See that is just wrong though. I used to show arabs..alot/nationally. Park horses are something TOTALLY different. First of all, arabian park horses move in an extremely artificial way with artifical contraptions. Arabians dont come out of the mare moving like that. On top of that, they display very little self carriage, they rarely are capable of much overtrack it any at all, and certainly not while they are being raced around the arena with their legs flailing all over the place. They are also always very hollow looking. Again, I have seen these plenty of times, I bought an old EP horse from Mike whelihan as he lived down the road from me, and I have seen plenty of them work. It's not even comparable. The only similarity is that this horse lifts its knees up as part of its motion. Thats it.

For someone that supposedly showed arabs, you're making some very ignorant comments (although this isn't the first time and luckily for us, not the last :rolleyes: ). There are many, MANY arabian park horses - Apollopalooza for example (RIP) comes to mind, that are not artificial or "hollow looking". Just as with this horse - what he did was extremely easy, balanced, and effortless to him - and he came that way. I'm sure there are a few Park horses who are "made" to move that way, but guess what - they don't last long - and they certainly aren't the majority. I, for one, don't appreciate such ridiculous comments and find them rather offensive in light of my own experience with english and park horses.

kenbiki
Nov. 29, 2006, 10:45 PM
Wow...can you say "ELASTIC"!! loverly....

canyonoak
Nov. 29, 2006, 11:52 PM
Park action is about knee and hock movement. The horses can and often do move in a balance and certainly in a rhythm. BUT they do not use their backs the same as a dressage horse.

I do not believe there is a park horse alive, whatever breed, that can extend and collect and maintain balance and rhythm, let alone show lateral suppleness and engagement in the same fashion as a well-schooled dressage horse.

And please-- that is not because one is better than the other.

It is because the two disciplines have different priorities.

An upper-level dressage canter is sort of useless for a grand prix show jumper, even more useless for an upper-level eventer. Sure, the connection is important, and the TRAINING is important, and they are all still horses--but there is a difference in the desirable balance and for that matter, the focus.

The excitement about Quaterback is not how high he is moving his knees and hocks.
The excitement is the elasticity and maintenance of balance and rhythm.

It will be even more exciting if all this does not diminish with further schooling...but the reality is--this horse can do this now.
And for this moment in time, he should just bring a smile to anyone's face.

chicki
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:12 AM
Well you can call it ignorant if you'd like to. I am simply stating what I saw year after year. Arabian horses are not saddlebreds. They were never bred to nor were they meant to run around the arena like saddlebreds. It is imitation and it looks like it. I love arabs for what they are, my parents and my grandfather bred arabs. I just don't see any comparison other than both lift their knees high.

canyonoak
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:20 AM
In no way whatsoever am I calling such a comparison (or you) ignorant.

I am simply saying that park action is about knees and hocks--as is all saddlebred style action, as is hackney action.

If the priority is looking at knees and hocks, then a dressage horse with a lot of suspension can be said to also have knee and hock action.

BUT a dressage horse is about being able to extend and collect and show lateral suppleness--that is what the training is designed to develop and show off.

In order to carry a rider and maintain this kind of movement, a dressage horse must learn to use its back and stomach and adopt acertain balance.

A park horse is asked for extravagant movement and a certain kind of ridability, but is not asked to maintain a connection for extending and collection or for lateral movements. The use of the back is very different.

that is all I am saying.

A stride has 3 components--

the horse
1. swings its hind leg under its body
2. flexes the joints
3.pushes forweard into the next stride

a well schooled dressage horse must do all three of these.

Park horses are not asked for this kind of swing under the body and push into the next stride, and the way they use their backs would preclude their being able to do it or to maintain the desired (in the show arena) movement.

chicki
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:47 AM
Canyon, I am with you on this one. I was called ignorant by dazedandconfused because I was saying essentially what you just did. They arent comparable.

Dazednconfused
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:17 AM
Well, no, that's not what you said.

arabian park horses move in an extremely artificial way

with artifical contraptions.

Arabians dont come out of the mare moving like that.
(oh really - how many regional or national level saddleseat arabians have YOU raised - include names, please, so I can look them up on the Datasource. Anyone who has ever seen a horse like Apollopalooza go can say that his way of going was exactly what was natural to him.)

they display very little self carriage

they rarely are capable of much overtrack it any at all

being raced around the arena with their legs flailing all over the place.

They are also always very hollow looking.

Reading your entire post was a series of insults and ignorant, sweeping, generalized comments from someone who thinks they know a lot about park horses - but that's all it is - thinking they know. Not having any real-time, actual knowledge.

Sabine
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:31 AM
Please don't fight and be rude..this is such a great thread....

just found out the following information:

The rider is a state employee in Mecklenburg and that's why he wears the uniform (it's not a military uniform). He is also known to be a great rider.
The horse is owned by the Staatsgestuet- the District Breeding Association and noone knows at this point if they will give him to a famous dressage rider/trainer to train up- or if he'll just stand at stud.

Ironically the Holsteiner Verband often gives really good stallions to active competitors and once they really hit the GrandPrix and start winning they call them back for breeding..(these are mostly jumpers).
Not sure they will have to do that in this case...I think there is no doubt about the natural talent, beauty and genepool in this specific case....
It would be good to know though if he has the brains and mind to be trained to GP and perform well....???

FoxxxyStarr
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:41 AM
hi Sabine. i admit that the extreme types of any breed look somewhat bizarre to me. but I think it is good to come to the dressage board and see that all disciplines have such extremes. it seems that part of horse showing is taking things to extremes, and while the resulting horses are very beautiful and athletic, they cannot please everyone with their way of going. yes, this is a dressage board so more people will appreciate the extreme type, but i am sure that there are dressage riders who may prefer a different type. it is a big world so there is room for all types! thanks again for the welcome!

muley1
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:42 AM
I would have to say that I grew up in Scottsdale, owned and showed Arabians. Lasma, Karho, Sims, Brusally ranches were a stones throw away from my house. Spent a lot of time watching the LaCroix Brothers riding and training.
I have worked at the Scottsdale All Arabian Show every year for the past 18 years, and I have yet to see a natural moving Park Horse. They are not trained to use their backs, they're trained to move hollow with their hocks trailing. And yes, I saw the best. If you consider Bask one of the best.

I've also seen my share of Arabian trainers, with the rubber tubing, and all other manner of gadgets to teach that natural movement.



Absolutely loved the stallion in the video. He brought tears to my eyes.
I wonder how big he is? Does anyone know? Either the rider is very tall, or the stallion isn't real big. At any rate, he is just about as perfect a dressage prospect as I've seen.

YoungFilly
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:46 AM
:) Your so cool Sabine!



Please don't fight and be rude..this is such a great thread....

just found out the following information:

The rider is a state employee in Mecklenburg and that's why he wears the uniform (it's not a military uniform). He is also known to be a great rider.
The horse is owned by the Staatsgestuet- the District Breeding Association and noone knows at this point if they will give him to a famous dressage rider/trainer to train up- or if he'll just stand at stud.

Ironically the Holsteiner Verband often gives really good stallions to active competitors and once they really hit the GrandPrix and start winning they call them back for breeding..(these are mostly jumpers).
Not sure they will have to do that in this case...I think there is no doubt about the natural talent, beauty and genepool in this specific case....
It would be good to know though if he has the brains and mind to be trained to GP and perform well....???

keana
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:06 AM
Please don't fight and be rude..this is such a great thread....

just found out the following information:

The rider is a state employee in Mecklenburg and that's why he wears the uniform (it's not a military uniform). He is also known to be a great rider.
The horse is owned by the Staatsgestuet- the District Breeding Association and noone knows at this point if they will give him to a famous dressage rider/trainer to train up- or if he'll just stand at stud.

Ironically the Holsteiner Verband often gives really good stallions to active competitors and once they really hit the GrandPrix and start winning they call them back for breeding..(these are mostly jumpers).
Not sure they will have to do that in this case...I think there is no doubt about the natural talent, beauty and genepool in this specific case....
It would be good to know though if he has the brains and mind to be trained to GP and perform well....???

The horse is nice, but the rider was just as great! I love him in the vid!

Sabine
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:07 AM
hi Sabine. i admit that the extreme types of any breed look somewhat bizarre to me. but I think it is good to come to the dressage board and see that all disciplines have such extremes. it seems that part of horse showing is taking things to extremes, and while the resulting horses are very beautiful and athletic, they cannot please everyone with their way of going. yes, this is a dressage board so more people will appreciate the extreme type, but i am sure that there are dressage riders who may prefer a different type. it is a big world so there is room for all types! thanks again for the welcome!

:) - what horses are your faves?


I think the sequence of posts is out of whack again...:(

FoxxxyStarr
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:17 AM
i think i understand why not everyone is so impressed by this horse. what we have here is an incredible show Oldenburg. but he is so extreme in type and movement, that only aficionados of the modern show Warmblood type will be able to appreciate it. those of us who are involved in other breeds or types will look at the horse and see something bordering on grotesque. it is no different than those of us who go to other breed shows and fail to see the appeal of the horses in the center ring. Quaterback is no different than any top park or western pleasure horse, in that the show type is generally appreciated by the few who participate in it. he is a horse taken to extremes, and only a few people will enjoy it. granted he is a cute horse with what appears to be a good mind, so i am sure that he will make someone very happy. but these top show horses are so specialized in what they do that they look freakish to those of us who are looking in from the outside. his type only begins to look less bizarre after one has spent so much time around it that it is all they see. remember that the American park horses look perfectly normal to those who spend all their time around them. yet dressage people call it artificial, inverted, less supple and less balanced. now those of us from a different world than the elite breed shows of Europe express our shock at what is going on across the ocean. show horses who have been bred to such extremes will not be attractive to eveyone. that is just the way it is!

Sabine
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:36 AM
i think i understand why not everyone is so impressed by this horse. what we have here is an incredible show Oldenburg. but he is so extreme in type and movement, that only aficionados of the modern show Warmblood type will be able to appreciate it. those of us who are involved in other breeds or types will look at the horse and see something bordering on grotesque. it is no different than those of us who go to other breed shows and fail to see the appeal of the horses in the center ring. Quaterback is no different than any top park or western pleasure horse, in that the show type is generally appreciated by the few who participate in it. he is a horse taken to extremes, and only a few people will enjoy it. granted he is a cute horse with what appears to be a good mind, so i am sure that he will make someone very happy. but these top show horses are so specialized in what they do that they look freakish to those of us who are looking in from the outside. his type only begins to look less bizarre after one has spent so much time around it that it is all they see. remember that the American park horses look perfectly normal to those who spend all their time around them. yet dressage people call it artificial, inverted, less supple and less balanced. now those of us from a different world than the elite breed shows of Europe express our shock at what is going on across the ocean. show horses who have been bred to such extremes will not be attractive to eveyone. that is just the way it is!

Welcome Foxxxy- I take it you are not a dressage person- but I guess feel compelled to support the non- warmblood taste...so be it.
When you come across a natural mover that has no 40 pd shoes on their front feet and has been thru major- let's call it ' training' to perform- when you come across an Arabian or a SAddlebred- that in its more or less natural form- looks absolutely splendid- please send a video- I love seeing truly divine horses- no matter what breed and purpose- as long as they haven't yet been 'worked over' by the trainers...:)

rebecca yount
Nov. 30, 2006, 06:22 AM
Agree with Canyonoak. This is a VERY talented athlete. I have seen very few horses in my life that could compare to this one. He is amazing.

I do NOT think that the way he is being ridden is a problem at all. He is probably 3 1/2, depending when he was born, and he could be almost 4. He uses himself so effortlessly that sitting lightly on his trot and canter will not hurt him at all. If the goal of his owners is a show career, you can be very sure that they will not mess around with this kind of talent by putting a crappy rider on him who does not have the knowledge and direction to harness in a positive way his incredible raw talent.

For horses like this, like for inherently talented human athletes, things come easily. They use themselves and come on the bit almost naturally, with very little direction from the rider (if it is a good rider). This very well could be a horse who has only 30 or so days under saddle. This ride on the video was a piece of cake for him.

Thank you to the website for putting the video up--I only wish it was longer. Please don't take it down because of the yammering of a few (envious?) people here.

How big is he? And is it Quaterback or QuaRterback? I thought on the video it sounded like the announcer said QuaRterback, like a football player?

MEP
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:23 AM
Yes, there are riders in Europe who specialize in starting young sport-bred horses (and there is a group in this country who are developing a program to help trainers learn specific skills to do this - I believe Scott Hassler is one of the people spearheading this program, but someone will correct me if I'm wrong.) In addition, there are auction riders who prepare the young green-broke riding horses specifically for such presentations as we see in the video. They know what they're doing, they ride the youngsters with confidence, and present them at their best. That's their job and they are very, very good at it. And yes, the horses look great, but are in reality very green for what they appear to be able to do. This has already been pointed out very well in earlier posts.

Another issue - yes - I agree every sport breeds their horses for specific kinds of work. We breed for extremes, and we breed for ideal types. That's what we humans do, obviously for all kinds of animals.

No-one here has brought up QH specifically, so I'll use that as an example.
Quarter Horses are bred to be extreme sprinters - watch ropers, or any of the other rodeo competitions, or reining or cutting. They are superb at quick acceleration, sharp turns, and sudden stops. So, then can Quarter Horses do dressage? Of course, they can, and there are some who have done quite well, but they're not built to move in the way that is preferred for the international level dressage competitors. And on the other hand, can my average 17H warmblood joe type horse race barrels? Sure, but we'd look silly and have a record slow time. Everybody would laugh, including me. I know, I'm here in QH country. But I just don't see any point in critiquing a Quarter Horse for not moving like a warmblood. So why would QH or other breed owners critique a warmblood for moving in the ideal way warmbloods are bred to move?

Horses for courses.

CrouchingCheese
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:35 AM
I found his fee, and a few nice pictures of him!

http://www.exclusiveequines.com.au/k-z/quaterback.htm

Such a gorgeous horse, and I know absolutely squat about dressage!

monstrpony
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:41 AM
And is it Quaterback or QuaRterback? I thought on the video it sounded like the announcer said QuaRterback, like a football player?

I have to admit, that's the only quibble I can make--how did a horse like this end up with a name that's even remotely like the word "quarterback"???:confused:

Seems he deserves something far more elegant. I'm of the age where I like my dottery little multi-purpose QH for myself, but that takes nothing away from being able to appreciate how special this horse is.

rileyt
Nov. 30, 2006, 08:17 AM
Sadly, I think his name is Quaterback (by Quaterman)... but that's the only flaw I see in him.... Somebody somewhere left an 'R' out a generation or two ago, and ever since... we have "Quater--".... :D (who knows, perhaps it was deliberate? I should be the last person on earth to pick on someone's spelling ability)

For the record, I think QuaRterback would've been a really cool name... as they are incredible athletes who lead the team.

egontoast
Nov. 30, 2006, 08:22 AM
Yeah, the name sux. Sire was Quaterman I think. When I buy him I am calling him 'Q'.

Perhaps if it could be changed to Heza Hot Impressive Quarterback, some people would be happier.

monstrpony
Nov. 30, 2006, 08:29 AM
Eggie, that would be Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Chip Olena, if you please.

egontoast
Nov. 30, 2006, 08:43 AM
Montrpony

:yes: :lol: :lol: :yes:

prudence
Nov. 30, 2006, 09:06 AM
Looks like he is not available in the US - or has not been added to the sales list.

Gnalli
Nov. 30, 2006, 09:18 AM
Look, I am a die hard TWH fan, (and I do like my foundation QH), but MAN OH MAN is that animal beautiful. I like everything about him, and coming from someone who LOATHES a hard trot, I'd ride that one, and LIKE it. This horse is amazing, and even someone as unschooled in dressage (though Honey B is trying to educate me) as I am can fully appreciate that this horse is the epitome of what a dressage prospect should be. What more do you want, egg in your beer?

Kathy Johnson
Nov. 30, 2006, 09:23 AM
3 or even 3 and a half is shockingly young to ride any horse this way, at the edge of the envelope. I've trained enough young horses in my life to know that anything you do to them at that age is like a waking dream. It's not training. The riders and the system are taking total advantage of a young horse's natural talent. Look, he passages at 3!

I believe the young horse championships are just like the futurities in America, pushing young horses at 3 and 4 for the money. Futurities destroy the future of the horse.

He could easily end up like Poetin.

Do I understand it financially? Yes. Do I have to like it? No.

That is a beautiful, incredible horse.

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:09 AM
Look, he passages at 3!

Showing my ignorance here (again! ;)) but how much of his "passage" is just natural exuberance and airtime and how much is actually trained into him?

slc2
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:17 AM
he isn't doing a passage at all, this has no resemblance to a passage whatever. he is just an excited young animal trotting around.

Kathy Johnson
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:21 AM
Hitch,

It doesn't much matter which it is in terms of difficulty. Both (natural exuberance and training) place the same wear and tear on the joints. It's fine for him to play like this out in the field, where he likely wouldn't do it for more than 30 seconds, or could stop the second he wanted to, or is not held in any kind of frame. But to do this with a rider for any period of time is excessive at his age. He has not had the time to develop the muscles to sustain that kind of movement with a rider. Then a young horse starts moving too much off his joints because he doesn't have the muscling, and over time, you develop joint problems.

In this case, it's not training, because no three year old has had the time to be trained to that level. The horse is a superhorse, who naturally moves great. Then, take an excellent rider who is riding him in a what, fourth level? PSG? frame. The horse is ridden like an FEI horse. They are taking advantage of the horse's natural gaits and showing them to their utmost, as is done in auction settings. This is auction riding at its best/worst.

I do love the horse, and I do understand the process. There are millions of dollars at stake here, riding on potential, or a canyonoak says, the fantasy. As my husband says, "can't we just ruin a few of them at that price, then stop?"

Kathy Johnson
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:25 AM
he isn't doing a passage at all, this has no resemblance to a passage whatever. he is just an excited young animal trotting around.

I'll beg to differ. His trot has a lot natural passage, or what we might call false passage. You really see it when he enters the ring. 3 or four times after a half halt, and after the canter, he sustains quite a nice passage, which we would be lucky to see in our horses in our lifetime, and which the rider is certainly not discouraging.

Furthermore, I do not think he is in the least bit excited. He is extraordinarily submissive and calm, but he is being ridden to maximum scope every single step.

Gnalli
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:27 AM
What a great post Kathy. I always admire and respect your posts. You are knowledgeable and well educated in dressage.

I saw the passage too, but everybody here says its just a plain ole' trot. :uhoh: Last time I checked, passage required collection. But the ladies here say this horse is showing no collection at all.

He is an incredibly lovely animal, but I don't like what the humans are doing to him one bit.

Two Simple, what is your opinion as to what a horse should have done to them? Just enjoy the beauty that is this horse, and quit worrying about the may happen. I dare say that many thousands of horses are started in work just as hard as this at the same or younger ages and don't break down. Sometimes, they do, but not always. You have your way, and that is good for you. Others have their way, and that works for them too. I would really like to know why you are so negative about everything. It is really sad that you seem to want to tear down everything that is not your choice. You don't like bits, you don't like shoes, you don't like showing, you loathe TWH big lick horses, you don't like western pleasure, I think somewhere I read that you don't like reiners (I may be wrong on that one), and you don't like dressage horses that are so talented, you don't like that horses are started earlier than you think should be done (although in some cases, no, in some cases its ok depends on the horse). What do you like? Do you think nothing else in the horse world has value but hitting a trail or doing endurance? My stars, can you not be pleasant or polite about anyone else's choices?

hitchinmygetalong
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:28 AM
he isn't doing a passage at all, this has no resemblance to a passage whatever. he is just an excited young animal trotting around.

Hence the quotation marks in my post above. :)

Kathy, thank you for your post. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point so clearly. :yes:

ButterflyIris
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:37 AM
Eggie, that would be Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Chip Olena, if you please.

Love it!

Emryss
Nov. 30, 2006, 10:46 AM
Eggie, that would be Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Chip Olena, if you please.


Almost: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback SMART Chip Olena....;)

cosmos mom
Nov. 30, 2006, 11:14 AM
TS- why are you so angry with everyone on the dressage forum? You aren't having a constructive volley, so what do you get out of it? It just seems like, time and time again, all of your posts about dressage are negative and one-sided. Not one person on the dressage forum can sway your opinion in any way, and when they disagree with you, things get ugly. Are you looking for the negative reasponse you recieve? Sometimes it ruins a perfectly good thread that's supposed to be about dressage, not you. :(

kkj
Nov. 30, 2006, 11:37 AM
Kathy Johnson wonderful posts. Thank you!

Someone who loves and understands dressage and still agrees with me. Someone who has also worked with many young horses and understands the danger of pushing them. The trot in places is very passagey. The horse is being ridden in a 4th level or better frame and this is not good for him. It is stressful on his poor joints. His stifles and back can not be ready for this. He is very talented yes but he doesn't have the muscle development or strength yet. He is tired in that frame and needs to stretch down. He could end up like Poetin or all the other horses that we have already forgotten about because they fizzled away at 5 or 6. I hope he doesn't. I hope he goes on to be a Grand Prix sensation. I just love him.

mademoiselle
Nov. 30, 2006, 11:50 AM
I'm not the type of person to push a horse early on. I'm from Europe and As someone said, in Europe, we don't touch them (I really mean it) till they are 3 ... No round pen, no nothing. They are just horses and that's it.

When they are 3, we start them, W/T/C. I worked for some big breeders and after a month under saddle all the horses were ready to do a training level test.
After that, some started some work over fences and after a few weeks they were shown. After one or two shows, they were turned-out again for a couple of months.

It has been done for decades and most of these horses went on to have wonderful careers (Grand Prix Jumpers, PSJ, Advance level in eventing).

In my opinion, Quaterback is not being pushed beyond what he can do as a 3 YO. He is a phenomenal horse and he can do naturally what it would take hours/years of training to get with a 'very' talented horse.

I can bet you that they don't work him everyday in this kind of frame, but he is at a 'show' and therefore they need to try to show off as much as possible. My guess is that he has a natural uphil frame and that it doesn't take much from the rider to get him 'up there'.

I trust German people to give strong basic to their horses.

Overfeeding youngsters, a lot of round pen work in deep footing, bad footing in arenas, over-longeing, lack of fitness, ... All these things are way worse for the long time health of your horse than working undersaddle with an experienced trainer, in a nice environment.

As it was stated before, a study showed that working horses early on, helps to get stronger bones and therefore sounder horses. Like everything else it's all about being sensible.

Last thing, about his frame. When you go in the show ring do you ride your horse the same way you ride him at home ? I don't. I always start long and low at hom, I always finish long and low. I usually don't ride everyday down centerline, bla, bla, bla. This video clip is not a training session for 3 YO, it's a stallion approval were the goal is to impress the judges and the crowd. That's all it is. It doesn't mean that everyday at his farm, Quaterback trot around this arena with a rider at a sitting trot and in upper level type of frame.

mademoiselle
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:02 PM
Everybody doesn't need the same amount of training. It's true for people and it's true for horses.

Just as a comparison. I have two students that are 13 YO. One is very gifted, she can ride any type of horse (hot, bucking, lazy), her balance is incredible and she just gets it right away.

Her girlfriend on the other end, just doesn't get it no matter what. She is working very hard and trying, but she has no feel.

Does it mean that both girls should do the same thing, because they are 13 YO ? Does it mean that I'm a bad trainer to put the gifted one a barely broke horses or TB just coming off the track ?

As far as horses, I broke 8 of them this year. With one of them, I'm still not cantering and she has been under saddle since september. And with an other one, I could go and win at training level tomorrow. I currently have a 3 YO in training that is not as nice as Quaterback (I wish he would), but he has the same kind of balance ans carries himself in a natural upper frame (and yes he still uses his back), does it mean that for the next year I should force him to be like a QH with a long frame because he is 3, or should I just let him use him self the way he is built for and just teach him to really push straight ?

slc2
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:02 PM
the thing people seem to miss is there is no such thing as a 'grand prix frame' or a '4th level frame', and there is no such thing as a 'training level frame', in fact, there is no such thing as a 'frame' at all in dressage. to talk about 'frames' is totally wrong. there is no one appropriate 'frame' for a horse of ANY level to be ridden in.

the horse is ridden in a position that is natural and comfortable for it. it is stretched from that posture as an exercise, not as a permanent posture, to make a horse like this travel in an artificially low frame all the time would destroy his balance.

this horse is naturally upheaded and uphill. if i was riding him, i would not try to spend 6 months trying to make him go around all the time with his head like the average amateur training level horse with his head hung down and his neck horizontal.

this whole thing is part of the 'down and down and down and always down' school of training dressage, which is no 'school' at all, but some sort of wrong headed religious practice that developed in america. if all one does is swim around in one's own little pond, other ways of swimming may seem wrong.

for a more useful comparison, look at how the young stallions at the spanish riding school are ridden, or what sort of posture ahlerich was in as a 4 year old with reiner klimke, or aktion, with his rider/trainer, or invasor, or any other horse you admire.

you're in for a shock. they aren't ridden around with their head on the ground either. that whole thing is something uniquely Adult -Amateur American.

DanniS
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:18 PM
Quaterback is a naturally talented horse.
Yes a certain amount of what we are seeing is manufactured but believe me a large percentage is not.

If you look at his sire you will see that the apple really hasn't fallen too far from the tree. He has inherited his sire's exceptional gaits and character.
Also the damline is responsible for some of the biggest names around.
Do I think that this was good fortune on the breeders part, well sure it was, just the same as it was in Florencio's case.

As far as I am concerned this is a once in a lifetime horse and we should consider ourselves lucky to have witnessed the eras of both Quaterback and Florencio.

To see these boys in the flesh is a very special experience and I for one can't wait to breed to Quaterback.:)

Danni

Kuegel
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:20 PM
Mademoiselle is correct. I worked for a year in Germany on a farm that foaled out mares and prepared young stallions for the 100 day tests. The stallions live out(and I mean 24/7) in a group together with geldings and were only halter broken. Most were Feb - May foals. Stallion tests are in the fall, so in late July/early August the now 3.5 year old stallions are backed. They are only "lightly" trained (walk, trot, canter, halt, turn right & left, please don't buck too much!) because a substantial part of their test score is their trainability, which is assessed during the 100 days of the test by the bereiters and trainers at the testing site. Once the test is over, approved stallions may be used for breeding, but all were turned out and not ridden again at all until summer of their 4 year old year. Even then they were started all over again as is appropriate for they youngsters that they still are.

goeslikestink
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:30 PM
nice neddy -- ts horse start at 3.5 years and at 3 racing starts as yearlings and raced at 2

to break a horse in a takes minutues- if they have been brought up well accpet a rider with ease if not normally a couple of days its not the breaking its the schooling once broke then school it

you say not at 3 for 20 mins each side wont hurt and a rider that does it well will have a nice repsonsive light horse balanced both in leg and mouth

and altho you dont do dressage dressage is the basis of all good schooling
as dressage is to school a horse--

as to the breeding if he has good parentage then he doesnt nessecarily have to be a proven stallion

and while iam here think this as you being abit off regards to the being and doing things with

he has grub her has a stable he has execellent care and attention and no doubt becuase of his breeding has top notch people doing things for him so hiswelfare department is well taken care off --- regardless of whos on his back doing whatknots
hes got a jolly good home

chicki
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:32 PM
ok look dazed, your obviously into that sorta thing. I used to be. I sounded just like you when I was into arabs. My mom was good friends with mike whelihan. Even he said..they dont come out like that. He has ridden and trained MANY a park and EP national champion. My last arab I got from him, she had won some EP regional championship when she was younger. I dont know which and I didn't breed her. I just know when I got her and tried to do dressage with her..it took YEARS to get her to actually use her back in a very minor way. My cousin also showed in this catagory and decided to switch to dressage. Same thing. You clearly do not understand what it means for a horse to be in self carriage, or to use his back properly, because you compared the warmblood here with arabian park horses. They are not similiar. I have watched many many top arabian park horses over the years. Ray bradburn lived down the road from us. In case you dont know who he is, he used to own zodiak matador, perhaps one of the best park horses ever to live. And he used to produce babies en mass, so many that it flooded the market here and probably elsewhere. We used to go and look at them ..hed have 100 yearlins, weanling, two year olds ect and NONE exibited anything even remotely similiar to the finished product and well they certainly didnt even move nicer than the average warmblood. You may be offended but I can identify the difference between an artifical gait and a natural one. I know what it is for a horse to use it's back, and I know what a hollow horse looks like. I have never, in all my years of showing nationals ect and watching them, seen an arabian park horse that is either natural in his way of going, or one that is correctly working over his back or is in a state of true selfcarriage where things look effortless for him. That is my opinion, and quite frankly I really dont care wether you think it is ignorant or not. And while I did not breed arabians for ep or park, for obvious reasons, I have seen enough at various stages to have an informed opinion. You can go on thinking that arabians that run around like TWH or saddlebreds is natural, but you are truly only fooling yourself. Lets look at it this way. You send us a link to a three year old arabian park horse with no pads or weighted shoes, just basically started that exhibits even half of the self carriage, impulsion and elasticity of this horse, since you beleive they are comparable.

Mozart
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks Kuegel for that insight. I do not have first hand experience of preparing stallions for approval but I think I am safe in saying that doing what Kuegel describes is not going to cause a horse to flame out early or set them up for a lifetime of chronic lameness.

If the horse was ridden like that every day for 45 -60 minutes, well yah, that would be an issue. According to those who know, that does not happen.

They have one shot at approvals. A score that will, I believe, follow them around for the rest of their breeding career. Get him going, let him show off his amazing wonderfulness, and get some videos out there....so the deep pocketed dressage aficionados can start hunting under the sofa for their loose change, and we mare-owners can start having Quaterman fantasies.

What happens next it going to be very important. Then he needs a chance to finish growing up.

As for not breeding to a young, unproven stallion..if we only bred to proven stallions, the gene pool would get shallower and shallower. If the young fella has the conformation, the gaits, the bloodlines, the temperament (and the fact that he was this well behaved, in this venue..speaks volumes...tactful and talented rider notwithstanding) and he is a good match for one's particular mare, both by type and by bloodlines...well why not??? If no one bred to young unproven stallions....what would happen to the bloodlines. Just my zwei pfennig. :)

Auventera Two
Nov. 30, 2006, 12:56 PM
Question - why are the approvals not done when the horse is 4? Why do you have to do it at 3? Especially considering the horses being approved are big, gangly slow growing warmbloods?

Sandy M
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:09 PM
Almost: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback SMART Chip Olena....;)

You Forgot: Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback ZIPPIN Smart Chip Olena

Auventera Two
Nov. 30, 2006, 01:56 PM
Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zippin Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

Sandy M
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:05 PM
Heza Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zippin Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena


And for the Appy lovers among us:

Heza HIGH Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

stuge
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:12 PM
Thank you SLC, I was trying to understand what these people were talking about when they were talking about the stallion being in an upperlevel frame. This appears to me to be the horses natural way of going. The rider has a nice, soft contact. The stallion doesn't look like he is being forced into any frame. Yes the horse looked like he wanted to stretch a few times and I bet he will be able to stretch when the rider wants him to and he probably gets to stretch alot but I bet he doesn't go around for the whole entire ride stretched!

I don't understand this. It sounds like some of you either think the horse at three should not understand contact and should be ridden on a totally loose, long rein or that the horse should be forced into a long and low frame which would totally be inappropriate for this horse and would cause much more damage to his joints than riding around like this would.

This is dressage. This appears to me how a horse should be correctly started and. All they are asking is the horse to walk trot and canter in front of a judge for probably not more than five minutes as a three year old. How in the world is that too much?

stuge
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:18 PM
Sadly, I think his name is Quaterback (by Quaterman)... but that's the only flaw I see in him.... Somebody somewhere left an 'R' out a generation or two ago, and ever since... we have "Quater--".... :D (who knows, perhaps it was deliberate?

Umm, is this horse not a german horse? Quaterback probably has absolutely nothing to do with american football and the person who named him probably doesn't even know what a quarterback is! Quater probably means something in another language and perhaps quaterback means something too! But I would almost bet money that it has nothing to do with football :D .

Just guessing here though so please noone take me seriously.

MyReality
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:32 PM
When I look at a dressage horse, I don't look at that knee/hock action per se... it's the overall elasticity, suppleness I am looking for. If I have to hear that knee/hock action argument again, I really would puke. And please suspension is not about high the horse jumps around... it is about the articulation of joints and stored energy that makes the horse appear to have 'air time'... as if he is suspended in motion (you have to check if your video is in slow motion). There should be no business and nervous hurriedness in the movement, like some Arabs and saddlebreds display.

I disagree the rider is trying to collect him, or trying to do passage with him. The rider is showing the stallion off, how you could hold/drive a little mostly with position, and the horse offer more cadenced steps. Then the rider demonstrate how the stallion could do all that, while working through his back and stretching down to the bit... i.e. he is not holding him up in a frame.

The lengthening is to demostrate the horse's ability to open up. It's not to show people a particular dressage movement. I'm sure the trainer at his level of skill could make a donkey do lengthenings, that's not the point at all. At a stallion show, we want to see a flavour of what he could do and see how the horse responds, so we could make a guess about his future.

Kimberlee
Nov. 30, 2006, 02:40 PM
This whole thread has been way to funny, LOL!

He is gorgeous!

Auventera Two
Nov. 30, 2006, 03:05 PM
And for the Appy lovers among us:

Heza HIGH Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

Too funny Sandy! :lol:

For the racing fans -

Heza High Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Jet Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

Sandy M
Nov. 30, 2006, 03:15 PM
Too funny Sandy! :lol:

For the racing fans -

Heza High Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Jet Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

For those who don't know Appy names, "High Sign" was a very notable champion leopard Appaloosa reining horse with an INCREDIBLY long mane. He opened the World and National Shows a couple of times, carrying the US Flag, mane and tail flying. One year, he and two of his sons were 1-2-3 in their performance classes.

While I don't quite buy the "reining is the equivalent of dressage" line, I figure that he was a champion reiner was a close enough connection for this thread. LOL

Here's a pic, which unfortunately doesn't show his lovely mane, though it does mention it:

http://barnlot.tripod.com/highsignnarr.html

Ironically, considering this thread, it notes that he was started at age 2, which is, sadly, usual for western horses. Still, he WAS still sound at age 20 when he died (colic, to judge from the article).

Pommederue
Nov. 30, 2006, 03:40 PM
granted he is a cute horse with what appears to be a good mind, so i am sure that he will make someone very happy. but these top show horses are so specialized in what they do that they look freakish to those of us who are looking in from the outside. his type only begins to look less bizarre after one has spent so much time around it that it is all they see.

I have to agree with this. Although I see this horse as the epitome of the beautiful elasticity we value so much in dressage these days, he is a freak of nature.

He also appears to move wide behind in the trot lengthenings which could be a strength issue being that he's only 3 years old.

That said, I would take him home in a heartbeat:yes:

Mozart
Nov. 30, 2006, 03:43 PM
Too funny Sandy! :lol:

For the racing fans -

Heza High Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Jet Zipping Smart Two Eyed Chip Olena

Aren't you guys forgetting some Pine Deck???

indyblue
Nov. 30, 2006, 03:44 PM
Just had to say how surprised I am at how cheap his service is. $2200 NZ is at least half the price I presumed it would be.We have new unproven stallions here in NZ(far less impressive) for considerably more than that.Of course you do have other cost involved but still Im surprised.

Sandy M
Nov. 30, 2006, 04:26 PM
Aren't you guys forgetting some Pine Deck???

Well, that would be from Jet Deck, wouldn't it? and we've covered that. Not to mention ZippoPine, etc.

Ah.... we forgot Boone! (Pepto Boonesmal, etc.)

So, Heza High Hot Impressive Doc Quarterback Jet Zippin' Smart Two Eye Chip Olena Boone.

monstrpony
Nov. 30, 2006, 05:34 PM
What about Skipper W?

I thought of this but couldn't decide if the Skipper should go after "Hot", after "Smart" or before "Chip".

Sandy M
Nov. 30, 2006, 06:01 PM
I was going to say we left out Vandy/Go Man Go - but those are racing lines, so keeping to the reining/cutting (and therefore dressage LOL), we really should include a little Poco or King in there.........

I leave to TS to determine where or if they should be included in this paragon of Quarterhorsedom.

[Yeah, I realize we're wandering from the original topic here, but at least it's keeping it light. I hadn't really weighed in, but I guess I've gotta have it both ways. I agree with the "too much for a 3 year old" but if the regimen is indeed what someone else described, perhaps it isn't that big a deal. Personally, I have a baby still at the breeder that's going to be 3 in March '07, but I don't think I'll have him started under saddle until at least July '07.)

snokat
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:08 PM
Gorgeous horse, that Quaterback!

There's one very important thing ya'll seem to have forgotten with his new name, though. When names get this long, they most certainly have to be squished to fit into the maximum allotment of squares on the registration form (let's just pretend for a moment that we get this many squares):

Hezacertifiablehighhotimpressivedocquarterbackjetz ippin'smarttwoeyechipolenaboone

(and I threw in some "I'm Certifiable" since my old horsie used to live in his barn!)

siegi b.
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:10 PM
.... and it becomes abundantly clear where Two Simple's expertise lies.... :-) Not that there ever was a doubt in my mind.

physical.energy
Nov. 30, 2006, 07:55 PM
I see this horse as the epitome of the beautiful elasticity we value so much in dressage these days, he is a freak of nature.

He is the product of what is being bred these days not necessarily a freak. More like the goal.

He also appears to move wide behind in the trot lengthenings which could be a strength issue being that he's only 3 years old.

I saw this too but only see infrequent steps... more when the crowd encourages him so it may be less when in a normal training ride. Agreed as he develops his quadriceps this may go away completely. That being said I would also take him in a heartbeat..... for his temperment alone! :winkgrin:

That said, I would take him home in a heartbeat:yes:

He is lovely, and if you haven't seen horses who have natural suspension and impulsion I can imagine it does look a bit odd.

Don't see his rider asking for passage at all, I do see him showing the horses ability to change from longer and shorter frame within the trot and canter. He doesn't look held in and does folllow him down as he stretches for a minute. Very professionally presented.

cinder88
Nov. 30, 2006, 09:22 PM
""At 3 or 3 1/2, when they are basically as wild as little furry indians...""SLC

Racial slur, anyone?

Cinder

DanniS
Nov. 30, 2006, 11:13 PM
Please don't take my comments the wrong way...he is lovely as a dressage horse. He is not my cup of tea with his extravagant movement but I admire his quality. I would not want to ride him down a rocky steep mountain trail no matter how quiet he seems in that arena, and I still want to see how well he can collect those amazing gaits when he gets a little older.

Hi Daydream Believer,
do you not recall the gaits of Krack C?, Anky has said on numerous occasions that she has to 'tone down' the movement of this horse for the Big Tour.

Krack C is also a horse with massive movement, this has NOT stopped him from performing at the highest levels AND producing horses who follow suit.

These types of horses are not bred to go riding down steep, rocky slopes.
Would you take a Ferrari out 4wdriving in heavy terrain?

Have a look at his breeding, there are horses in there who have performed and produced at the highest levels of jumping.

Each horse is an individual and they don't always keep to the plan that we make for them. A classic example of this is Sandro Hit, some of the BEST jumping lines but he can't jump to save himself. Thankfully a well informed person saw his ability for dressage and the rest is history.

I am not trying to cause problems here but it is common sense to realise that, in fact, horses ARE bred for different disciplines

Danni

FoxxxyStarr
Nov. 30, 2006, 11:52 PM
Hi Daydream Believer,
Krack C is also a horse with massive movement, this has NOT stopped him from performing at the highest levels AND producing horses who follow suit.
but what exactly is the appeal of such massive movement? is it to attract the judge's attention in the show ring? in that case it is very similar to park horse movement, in that you want a horse who can turn it on and make everyone look at him. while dressage may seem very different from other disciplines because of the show format, perhaps the disciplines are more alike that we think?

nero
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:10 AM
but what exactly is the appeal of such massive movement? is it to attract the judge's attention in the show ring? in that case it is very similar to park horse movement, in that you want a horse who can turn it on and make everyone look at him. while dressage may seem very different from other disciplines because of the show format, perhaps the disciplines are more alike that we think?

The same as the aesthetics for a dancer, the one that is the most supple, the most controlled and the most able to reach the extremes of their athleticism is often the ones we enjoy watching the most. Without control though its not as great to watch so a Sylvie Guillem is reknowned as the best female dancer in the world because not only is she the strongest and the most supple and lithe, but the most controlled. She is, in a word, elegant. THE epitomy of elegance in fact.

And once a great natural athlete like Quarterback has his incredible suppleness and athleticism combined with control and strength he too could become the most elegant of his type. His expression is as much about the promise as it is about what he can do now.

At at the end of the day watching something as purely athletic as this just looks nice, its joyous to see so much athleticism in one animal.

well that's my take on it anyway, I'm sure there are more scientific and practical reasons movement like this is coveted.

DanniS
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:37 AM
but what exactly is the appeal of such massive movement? is it to attract the judge's attention in the show ring? in that case it is very similar to park horse movement, in that you want a horse who can turn it on and make everyone look at him. while dressage may seem very different from other disciplines because of the show format, perhaps the disciplines are more alike that we think?

I am almost positive that when this boy was conceived that people were not thinking 'here is the next international showman of Europe'.
As with Florencio, Krack C etc there is an element of luck in breeding.
Best stallion + best mare does not necessarily mean best foal.

It is a good thing that everyone has different taste or the world would be a boring place.

Yes his movement is extreme but this is natural. He is incredibly loose through his whole body and even at such an age he is TOTALLY engaged.
This is because he finds it all incredibly easy.

Some points that we all need to remeber:
Brandenburg has produced MANY truly brilliant horses, Samba Hit I,II & III, Poetin I & II and many many more.

This is not the first time that they have been in the spotlight.
Brandenburg is a Landgestut and with this comes the fact that all the staff, riders and trainers included, are government employees.
For them to be producing this calibre of horse time and time again is a credit to them. But at the end of the day this is the type of horse the big bucks come for.I dare say there are already negotiations going on for Quaterback, I just hope that he stays where he is.

Danni

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:39 AM
The same as the aesthetics for a dancer, the one that is the most supple, the most controlled and the most able to reach the extremes of their athleticism is often the ones we enjoy watching the most. Without control though its not as great to watch so a Sylvie Guillem is reknowned as the best female dancer in the world because not only is she the strongest and the most supple and lithe, but the most controlled. She is, in a word, elegant. THE epitomy of elegance in fact.
but the problem is that Guillem is not universally recognized as the world's best dancer. some people do not find her extreme extensions aesthetically pleasing. so how can we make generalizations that she is the "best female dancer in the world?" does the EXTREME flexibility really make her a better dancer. or does it just make her more flexible? i guess my question is this: is there a real reason why extremes are better, or is it just us spectators have come to prefer?

And once a great natural athlete like Quarterback[sic] has his incredible suppleness and athleticism combined with control and strength he too could become the most elegant of his type. His expression is as much about the promise as it is about what he can do now.
to me, this Quaterback is just another horse. they are all God's creatures and they are all beautiful. i guess i am not used to being around the show crowd, so the fascination with show horses is a bit foreign to me!

WindyIsles
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:48 AM
Gorgeous!

Can we start a 'Quarterback Fangirl Clique'? :winkgrin:

I am very interested in watching this stallion's career and how it progresses :yes:

nero
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:57 AM
but the problem is that Guillem is not universally recognized as the world's best dancer. some people do not find her extreme extensions aesthetically pleasing. so how can we make generalizations that she is the "best female dancer in the world?" does the EXTREME flexibility really make her a better dancer. or does it just make her more flexible? i guess my question is this: is there a real reason why extremes are better, or is it just us spectators have come to prefer?

to me, this Quaterback is just another horse. they are all God's creatures and they are all beautiful. i guess i am not used to being around the show crowd, so the fascination with show horses is a bit foreign to me!

Well ballet is an ART, so there will never be consensus as to who is THE best, doesn't diminish her ability though, I was trying to explain an idea by using a parallel BUT........Have you ever seen Guillem perform live? She is not just a flexible dancer, she has power, superb control, presence and unbelievable adagio and allegro, she's is one of the most complete dancers ever and most great dance brains would say she is/was the world's prima ballerina at her peak. OK so you say not the best (hell if she ain't I'd love for you to tell me who is!!), one of the best then? Does it matter, it was but an example? And if you think she is just all about flexibility then perhaps you won't understand my point, plus just about every other world class prima ballerina could match her in the flexibility stakes, hell in my day I could - almost!!!, its not JUST about that, but her extraordinary supplness showcases her athleticism and other strengths - qualities which hopefully will be matched by this horse. You seem to miss my point.

Maybe Quarterback's appeal lies in the fact that he represents the pinnacle of modern WB breeding, years and years of hard work? What breeders have been striving for?

If you do not like a horse like Quarterback because he seems to have too big a movement for you, then there is nothing really anyone can say that will allow you to understand why its a thing of beauty to them, because you don't agree with the basic premise here that this is lovely. So no one will be able to answer you satisfactorily, probably. But that's OK, the horse has enough admirers I think, he'll probably not lose any sleep over you not being a fan! ;-)

BLBGP
Dec. 1, 2006, 01:42 AM
.... and it becomes abundantly clear where Two Simple's expertise lies.... :-) Not that there ever was a doubt in my mind.

Certainly not in telling horses of different color, markings, size, movement, build, and breeding apart. ;)

BLBGP
Dec. 1, 2006, 01:47 AM
to me, this Quaterback is just another horse. they are all God's creatures and they are all beautiful. i guess i am not used to being around the show crowd, so the fascination with show horses is a bit foreign to me!

Yes, he is a horse. A beautiful horse....yes, like all horses, in all their own ways. But this whole discussion just makes me wonder why so many non-dressage/non-horse show people bother to hang out on a Dressage board geared towards high-end, competitive Dressage riders and competitors. All the people who are totally unimpressed by this horse seem to be from completely out of the realm of showing. I don't get the allure. Just dissent?

I know for sure I would look like a drunken monkey on that horse. I admit I probably couldn't sit a Grand Prix jumper's excellent jump, and a Grand Prix jumper probably either a.) looks like a** over 3' or b.) jump so big over 2'6" that I couldn't stay with it but that doesn't mean he or she sucks. It just means it's made for bigger things - who am I to naysay it, just because I can't ride it or because I don't have my goals set for that level? I can still appreciate and aspire. Just because it doesn't fit in my own personal bubble doesn't mean it isn't awesome and - if all the stars are aligned - is destined for greatness.

YoungFilly
Dec. 1, 2006, 02:00 AM
Yes, he is a horse. A beautiful horse....yes, like all horses, in all their own ways. But this whole discussion just makes me wonder why so many non-dressage/non-horse show people bother to hang out on a Dressage board geared towards high-end, competitive Dressage riders and competitors. All the people who are totally unimpressed by this horse seem to be from completely out of the realm of showing. I don't get the allure. Just dissent?

I'm having yet another insomniac night. I think alot of the people who are not impressed just don't understand how difficult dressage really is, and think that its basically you sitting there looking beautiful, when in actuality, its so freaking hard to make your horse look good. I also think that some people do get mad when they see a horse like this, and then have to go ride there backyard horse.

As for dressage being compared to park horses, that is so apples to oranges its not even funny. :no:

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 02:24 AM
Yes, he is a horse. A beautiful horse....yes, like all horses, in all their own ways. But this whole discussion just makes me wonder why so many non-dressage/non-horse show people bother to hang out on a Dressage board geared towards high-end, competitive Dressage riders and competitors. All the people who are totally unimpressed by this horse seem to be from completely out of the realm of showing. I don't get the allure. Just dissent?
i was not aware that this dressage board was geared towards high-end, competitive dressage riders and competitors. is that not just one small segment of the dressage world? this Quaterback might be the pinnacle of your horse world, but he is just another show horse to the rest of us. extreme show horses are beautiful and captivating in their own right, but they only appeal to a small fraction of the horse world.

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 02:26 AM
I'm having yet another insomniac night. I think alot of the people who are not impressed just don't understand how difficult dressage really is, and think that its basically you sitting there looking beautiful, when in actuality, its so freaking hard to make your horse look good. I also think that some people do get mad when they see a horse like this, and then have to go ride there backyard horse.
my horses never make me angry. they are magnificent creatures who bring me only joy and happiness. if riding your horse makes you mad, please take a break so as not to impart that negative energy onto them.

As for dressage being compared to park horses, that is so apples to oranges its not even funny. :no:
ahh yes, dressage is different. i have heard this before. nothing can compare to it, yes?

Sabine
Dec. 1, 2006, 02:42 AM
my horses never make me angry. they are magnificent creatures who bring me only joy and happiness. if riding your horse makes you mad, please take a break so as not to impart that negative energy onto them.

ahh yes, dressage is different. i have heard this before. nothing can compare to it, yes?

can you read? read it again- because you're comments are way off...and I wonder why you insist on commenting in this thread- as it is clearly a very specialized horse for very committed dressage folks. Noone asked if the whole riding population approves of this horse, noone asked if he would be performing soundly for a life time- noone wanted to know- this is a thread to admire a divine creature for those of us who are TRAINED and experienced in dressage,....not in park horses, quarter horses, arabians, fox trotters or any other discipline that might be out there- without any trace of disdain- just that!! So please enjoy 'your' specific stuff - what ever that might be- and quit comparing apples oranges and bananas...it becomes a rather useless conversation.

The horse is without question divine- as I said before- post one of yours that is divine in your disciplines eyes- I would be respectful and interested to see- but not in my worst dreams would I dare to compare that to what this special Oldenburg WB is- there are lots of different horses out there- we don't have to diss each other to feel better...go ride better- that would be more productive....:)

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 04:19 AM
this is a thread to admire a divine creature for those of us who are TRAINED and experienced in dressage,....not in park horses, quarter horses, arabians, fox trotters or any other discipline that might be out there
are we talking about dressage type, or about extreme modern Oldenberg type? if we are going by dressage standards, i see some flaws in the horse's gait (e.g. he moves very wide behind), but he might still be a good Oldenberg since they seem to be looking for something different. no one is comparing apples to oranges. we are comparing extreme show type to extreme show type. to many of us these breeding trends look bizarre and unnatural, but this does not mean we are less experienced or committed. so please do not mistake this Quaterback type for dressage type. he is a show horse doing his thing at a breed show. you can go to any breed show and see the beautiful and extreme show horses. whether he excels in the discipline of dressage is another story altogether. if you would like to only have your type of person respond to this thread, then maybe this thread should not have been posted on a dressage forum but rather on a breed forum where a smaller range of people are likely to frequent? the dressage world if a very diverse group with many different types of people. while this Quaterback is going to be ideal in some people's eyes, why get upset when he is not ideal in the eyes of everyone? i am not saying that he is not beautiful, just that you would do best to have less contempt for those who prefer something different.

DanniS
Dec. 1, 2006, 05:24 AM
are we talking about dressage type, or about extreme modern Oldenberg type? if we are going by dressage standards, i see some flaws in the horse's gait (e.g. he moves very wide behind), but he might still be a good Oldenberg since they seem to be looking for something different. no one is comparing apples to oranges. we are comparing extreme show type to extreme show type. to many of us these breeding trends look bizarre and unnatural, but this does not mean we are less experienced or committed. so please do not mistake this Quaterback type for dressage type. he is a show horse doing his thing at a breed show. you can go to any breed show and see the beautiful and extreme show horses. whether he excels in the discipline of dressage is another story altogether. if you would like to only have your type of person respond to this thread, then maybe this thread should not have been posted on a dressage forum but rather on a breed forum where a smaller range of people are likely to frequent? the dressage world if a very diverse group with many different types of people. while this Quaterback is going to be ideal in some people's eyes, why get upset when he is not ideal in the eyes of everyone? i am not saying that he is not beautiful, just that you would do best to have less contempt for those who prefer something different.

Indeed Quaterback comes from 2 very good dressage lines, with some jumping thrown in.
He is NOT an Oldenburg, he is a Brandenburg, he is not even with the Oldenburg Verband.
This in itself speaks volumes, obviously the larger Verbands appreciate a talented horse.

His Grandsire is Quando Quando who, I am proud to say, is owned and ridden by the very talented Australian Kristy Oatley Nist.
Quando is a Grand Prix stallion who has done very well, he is also a sire of some repute.

I believe everyine should be able to have their likes and dislikes, but it should not mean belittling a devine creature.
For Gods sake he is 3, he is a stallion and he was at a STALLION PARADE.
A majority of stallions go wide behind intermitently due to their dangly bits, it is also very well known that young warmbloods go wide behind intermitently, it's a maturing and growing thing.

If he had of turned up and been run-of-the-mill do you think that would have been beneficial for his owners?, NO but look what is happening all over the world, we are debating the pros and cons of QUATERBACK, I for one would be extremely pleased if I were his owners right now !!!

I just heard that Quaterback has been accepted for Hannoverian!!

nero
Dec. 1, 2006, 05:25 AM
geez foxxxy, you remind me of someone called trailblazer!!!!!!!!!!

DanniS
Dec. 1, 2006, 06:49 AM
Latest news is that he is NOT for sale and will be aimed at the World Championships.
And he is now approved Hannoverian:)

Rusty Stirrup
Dec. 1, 2006, 07:24 AM
Beautiful baby. In the electric surroundings he is in it's looks to me that he is forming his own advanced "frame". The rider is very tactful in keeping him focused and nothing looks forced. I'm sure he is getting the best of everything, encluding training. I'm also sure no one will endanger his future and we need not worry about that. HE may offer too much, too soon. As they say, let's hope that the brightest flames doesn't burn out first. I too will watch his progress with interest and dream about riding such a horse one day.

Sakura
Dec. 1, 2006, 07:50 AM
God! Why do Hannoverians keep doing this to me? First Rosenthal and now this young stallion... I'm just going to have to breed a nice half Arab for myself someday so I can have the best of both worlds :D.

Kathy Johnson
Dec. 1, 2006, 08:48 AM
A majority of stallions go wide behind intermitently due to their dangly bits, it is also very well known that young warmbloods go wide behind intermitently, it's a maturing and growing thing.
Horses go wide behind when they are pushed past their level of strength. They do it most frequently when asked to engage in the mediums more than they are ready for. They can't step under, so they step out. It's a training issue. None of the stallions I've ridden ever did it due to their dangly parts.

Robyn
Dec. 1, 2006, 08:58 AM
"Dangly parts" Gosh, I just LOVE that...can one use that phrase to describe species other than equine do you think??

Robin

retrofit
Dec. 1, 2006, 09:10 AM
this Quaterback might be the pinnacle of your horse world, but he is just another show horse to the rest of us.

The "rest of us"? This is what, your 3rd post, and you are speaking for ... whom, exactly?


God! Why do Hannoverians keep doing this to me? First Rosenthal and now this young stallion... I'm just going to have to breed a nice half Arab for myself someday so I can have the best of both worlds :D.

Sakura - Are you aware of the 2 for 1 Rosenthal breedings for Arab mares offered by High Point?

Sakura
Dec. 1, 2006, 09:26 AM
The "rest of us"? This is what, your 3rd post, and you are speaking for ... whom, exactly?



Sakura - Are you aware of the 2 for 1 Rosenthal breedings for Arab mares offered by High Point?

You really do know how to make a girl lose her mind don't you :lol:.

Do you think they would let me buy now and use them later...? We may be moving over seas courtesy of the Marine Corps next summer, so if we do move no more foals for at least three more years...:(.

Sakura
Dec. 1, 2006, 09:37 AM
I just gave this mare (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=SanteriNatCosTrot.jpg)to a Sport Pony breeding program... she trots like this barefoot (and even without the knee deep grass (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=SanteriMovingout.jpg) :yes:). She would be a wonderful mare to use for WB crosses, I hope she does well in the program she is in now. I'm sure someone can find something wrong with her, but she's not too bad for a 14 year old green broke broodmare (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=SanteriAug10.jpg) :D.

Horsedances
Dec. 1, 2006, 09:52 AM
It is no secret amongst dressage-riders that you can't do much about the walk, and that worries me, I would rather own a horse with a 7.5 for trot and a 10 for the walk as vice versa.

Understand me well, I can make a very nice stable for him available.

Theo

siegi b.
Dec. 1, 2006, 10:19 AM
Having just attended an Axel Steiner clinic where we went over the new FEI tests, the subject of scoring walk movements came up. Well, Axel pointed out that nowhere in the FEI judging rules does it say that the horse has to have an overstep and, therefore, it can NOT be down-scored for a shorter walk. There has a to be a difference between the collected and medium, etc., but the horse does not have to have overstep.

nhwr
Dec. 1, 2006, 10:35 AM
Everybody should face the fact that the only more boring discipline to watch than dressage, is western pleasure. :lol: Non-horse people just don't get it. And even non-dressage people just don't get it. I know people that do jumping or endurance and dressage puts them right to sleep. With jumping, reining, barrel racing, vaulting, polo, etc. there is always excitement. There is always an "on the edge of your seat, suck in your breath moment" somewhere and that's what spectators want.

I audited a GM clinic and was on the edge of my seat every second. It was fascinating and exhilerating to see the jumpers doing 4'9" fences from tight spots and sharp turns. Conversely, I audited a Betsy Steiner clinic and had to get up for coffee 3 times to keep from sleeping.

This just proves that you lack the base of knowledge to appreciate what you are experiencing in dressage. It is no sin, lots of people are in that category. My husband compares dressage to watching cement harden ;) In the context of that ignorance, your comments are understandable. But please stop being so hostile to those who don't share your ignorance. The constant hostility and bickering contributes nothing to the discussion and is tiresome.

Sandy M
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:01 AM
"Dangly parts" Gosh, I just LOVE that...can one use that phrase to describe species other than equine do you think??

Robin

That, or "naughty bits' to borrow from the Monty Python crew.

canyonoak
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:17 AM
<< Having just attended an Axel Steiner clinic where we went over the new FEI tests, the subject of scoring walk movements came up. Well, Axel pointed out that nowhere in the FEI judging rules does it say that the horse has to have an overstep and, therefore, it can NOT be down-scored for a shorter walk. There has a to be a difference between the collected and medium, etc., but the horse does not have to have overstep.>>

I know this is going to seem as though Im highjacking this thread, but bear with me a moment or two and, with any luck, I'll bring it all home together<g>.


Having heard Linda Zang insist that the overstep MUST be measurable and that yes indeedy, she has put that in the Judge's Handbook (you know, the Handbook that is now in its 1,237th revision and will someday be available for judges around the year 2042)...this is just another proof of how subjective dressage is as a sport.

Not a negative or positive--just a reflection on the subjectivity factor of the sport.

Which leads me to this thread and Quaterback.

It is a long road, dressage. Any great trainer will tell you it requires several lifetimes to get a handle on the finer points--because real training is about gaining control of one's consciousness, never an easy thing for a human being.

Quaterback is not a freak of nature. He is not some outlandish, modish, exaggerated cartoon.

He is a living, breathing 3-year-old stallion (almost 4).

I kind of suspect his walk is better than a 7.5, especially if he is at home and not under the extreme atmosphere of a stallion days arena.

I kind of suspect that the 'wide behind' is going to go away as he develops strength--this has been the case of any young stallion/horse I have sat on/ watched being trained (correctly):

But , in training-- if you don't ask--you'll never know.

I kind of suspect that Christian Flamm (hats off to this guy--he can REALLY ride and not ruin a horse) realizes that he and the horse have a few minutes in a stallion days ring to show off--and one goes with what one gets.

He is NOT showing off the training. He is NOT showing off a finished product.

He IS showing off a potential, a fantasy that one hopes becomes reality.

To talk about the little glitches that occurred in this video as though they matter--well, it makes me wonder if anyone actually trains horses here...because such talk is all so silly.

And see how subjective and argumentative that last sentence is..?

Can't we all just agree that this is a great horse? That he is extremely well-presented...?

That I wish we could get Flamm over here to give a Young Horse seminar..?

From my perspective, I simply cannot understand anyone who can watch the video and not see a great athlete.

I watch videos of horses performing well outside my chosen specialty and can appreciate the athleticism, the goal, the aim of the ride.

I chose dressage over the other disciplines because it appeals to me.

In choosing dressage as I understand dressage, this kind of horse appeals to me as a divine dance partner.

I kind of think that Linda Zang AND Axel Steiner would agree that this horse has unbelievable potential -- whatever they might think about the walk<g>

Maybe now is a good time to discuss the canter. In the photos, this horse-- much like Florencio--appears to have both hind feet on the ground.

In the videos of either horse (that I have seen), both appear to have huge canters and the momentary dissociation is as fleeting as trying to find the 4-beat in the pirouette. Tha is, when I see the canter in MOTION, I like it a lot.

So it does not bother me, the dissociation, nor do I feel it proves anything except that high-speed cameras once again go outside the reality we sit on.

anyone?

DanniS
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:25 AM
Well said and I wholeheartedly agree. No arguements here:)

But what about young horses who go wide behind free, in the paddock etc?

canyonoak
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:35 AM
I tend to mentally check off young horses that go wide behind while free in a paddock.<G>

But even there-- it is just one variable . WHY is the horse wide behind?

I mean--a living horse has flaws. Nothing that breathes is perfect (well maybe George Clooney).

WindsongEq
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:40 AM
Absolutely gorgeous. I did notice though that the rider seemed quite cautious on the lengthings, or was it my imagination that he asked for them?

He definately did some trot and canter extensions, from our angle on the video, you can't really see the scope of the stride, but you can see the uphill balance... Look at the height of the front steps vs the hind ones. For an idea how brilliant they were, listen to the crowd during his canter extension.
Wow!! What a horse!! Just brilliant!!

mp
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:48 AM
but what exactly is the appeal of such massive movement? is it to attract the judge's attention in the show ring? in that case it is very similar to park horse movement, in that you want a horse who can turn it on and make everyone look at him. while dressage may seem very different from other disciplines because of the show format, perhaps the disciplines are more alike that we think?

What you want in any show horse in any discipline (dressage and WP included) is the ability to "turn it on" in the ring. Call it presence or charisma or brilliance or whatever you want. It's a controlled energy and confidence that some horses possess and others do not. Or at least they can't be that way when they're shown.

A horse who has it is mesmerizing to watch, no matter what he's doing in the ring. One of the most memorable dressage tests I've ever seen was a 2nd level test ridden on a p.b. Arabian named Aul Magic. He owned that ring the moment he entered it. That horse had "it" in spades.

From what I can see, I'd say Quaterback has it, too, "outlandish gaits" aside. Hats off to the breeder and the rider, I say. You did good.

MyReality
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:51 AM
A couple of people commented on the travelling wide issue. Personally I have seen both, horses that do that because they are growing, and horses who still do that grown and trained. Actually my understanding is all cases it IS a matter of strength, so I agree 50% of what Kathy Johnson mentioned. But where that comes from, could be from conformation, could be a result of poor training, or a growing horse adjusting to body change.

It is not a stallion thing at all. And true, the more mature the horse is, the less you'll see this type of thing.

But let's not lose sight of the context of what is happening with this horse at the show. He is green we all know that. In case people don't notice, not only is he travelling wide, he is also not straight most of the time. I accept these things, like all other breed shows I went to, like all other young horses I come across... I understand what they are trying to accomplish at the show, and I understand all young horses are going to look gangly.

I guess people are expecting to see a stallion at that age less put together. I understand that sentiment. However, may I remind you AGAIN, this rider could make a donkey look good. If it's me who is riding, he will look like that 3 year old stallion all over the place... then you'll think, ah that's the suitable level this horse should be at! I will probably ride with longer rein so I get less resistence... and posting trot coz I can't really sit that trot... but probably he will buck a few times as he hates my hand... and I would be so thrown out of the saddle in the lengthening he will bolt. :) You can't force a horse really, especialy stallions... I can't see how you can take what he cannot offer.

Now the subject of flashiness in show horse. Actually, as i mentioned in my first post already... personally this horse is too much for me, in terms of flashiness of movement, even if I am a GP rider. I do understand and agree somewhat when people say he is a bit freaky. But I still like this horse A LOT, because of how elastic and supple he is, and his natrual suspension, cadence and engagement, and his attitude is one in a million. Without those, a horse ONLY has flashy movement, I would turn my nose.

And I hate dressage horses with flashy movement, but really temperamental, hot and tense.

Lastly, if I still have to see pictures of individual Arabs, flexing their legs UP as if they are trotting on hot coals, as examples....

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:55 AM
geez foxxxy, you remind me of someone called trailblazer!!!!!!!!!!
i don't see my opinions as being groundbreaking, as there seem to be others here who will agree with me. here we have a video of a lovely show horse doing his thing at a BREED show. this video was posted on a DRESSAGE board. there is no need to be so contemptuous of those who are not so enamored with the extreme breed type exhibited in the video. you simply picked the wrong bulletin board to post this on.

FoxxxyStarr
Dec. 1, 2006, 11:58 AM
This just proves that you lack the base of knowledge to appreciate what you are experiencing in dressage. It is no sin, lots of people are in that category. My husband compares dressage to watching cement harden ;) In the context of that ignorance, your comments are understandable. But please stop being so hostile to those who don't share your ignorance. The constant hostility and bickering contributes nothing to the discussion and is tiresome.
ahh, so those who find dressage boring to watch are ignorant. sounds like those who dislike modern art. they just don't know enough to appreciate it, right? the whole point of dressage is that it SHOULD be boring to watch. the best ride is the one you don't even notice. that's why dressage is different from saddle seat.

Wild Oaks Farm
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:02 PM
Wow! He is something else. He gave me goosebumps to watch!

Mickey4Ever
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:06 PM
that horse is very nice. it reminds me of how our gorgeous saddlebreds go. love it. :D

Sandy M
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:11 PM
A horse who has it is mesmerizing to watch, no matter what he's doing in the ring. One of the most memorable dressage tests I've ever seen was a 2nd level test ridden on a p.b. Arabian named Aul Magic. He owned that ring the moment he entered it. That horse had "it" in spades.


My present horse is nearly 21, has arthritic stifles, was never a great mover, just a basic good, TB-type mover that did well through 2nd level, some third, after starting life as a hunter/jumper/trail horse (and stayed a trail horse throughout). Lots of All Breeds wins and placings, got me performance certificates and rider certificates at each level, etc. A lovely horse, but he's been retired from showing for the past two years, is now primarily a trail horse, and I will, hopefully, be able to find a sponsor for him next year so that I can start my baby, who is living with the breeder for now, since he's only two.

Now....after all that....the newbie is 16 hands at 2.5 years old. He has 8" overstep at the walk (!) and is very free in the shoulder, but obviously not under saddle yet as he is too young. And he is.. by Aul Magic out of a 17.2 Appaloosa mare. He does not have perfect conformation, but he has a lovely top line for an unbacked horse, is short backed, moves straight, and uses his hocks extremely well (PPE vet said, "I thought he was going to hit his belly!"). She also said he had a bit too much knee action if I wanted a hunter (no problema, doc, I want a dressage horse). But I certainly don't think he's a freakish mover - just a very nice mover. I only hope I can preserve those gaits once he's under saddle. While I don't have ambitions to do anything more than have a nice horse to ride and show, hopefully through 3rd level, I have great hopes for him - it would be nice if he could do as well as his sire! (My first half-Arab, too. Though I think of him as Appaloosa... he has a snowflake blanket.)

hitchinmygetalong
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:19 PM
i don't see my opinions as being groundbreaking, as there seem to be others here who will agree with me. here we have a video of a lovely show horse doing his thing at a BREED show. this video was posted on a DRESSAGE board. there is no need to be so contemptuous of those who are not so enamored with the extreme breed type exhibited in the video. you simply picked the wrong bulletin board to post this on.


:eek: WHAT?!? And just where do you think it SHOULD be posted?


ahh, so those who find dressage boring to watch are ignorant. sounds like those who dislike modern art. they just don't know enough to appreciate it, right? the whole point of dressage is that it SHOULD be boring to watch. the best ride is the one you don't even notice. that's why dressage is different from saddle seat.

Who said that? Oh golly, I guess YOU did. I would change "ignorant" to "uneducated" and for crying out loud, what does saddle seat have to do with it? I find watching overshod horses flinging their way around in circles totally unappealing but could watch Quaterback's video for hours. Different strokes. But you don't see me marching over to trot.org and telling them how awful their disciplines are, do you?

As far as folks agreeing with you, I count.... one? two? And for those who are opposed to your views, let's see... well, let's just say you are in the minority.

mp
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:22 PM
Now....after all that....the newbie is 16 hands at 2.5 years old. He has 8" overstep at the walk (!) and is very free in the shoulder, but obviously not under saddle yet as he is too young. And he is.. by Aul Magic out of a 17.2 Appaloosa mare. He does not have perfect conformation, but he has a lovely top line for an unbacked horse, is short backed, moves straight, and uses his hocks extremely well (PPE vet said, "I thought he was going to hit his belly!"). She also said he had a bit too much knee action if I wanted a hunter (no problema, doc, I want a dressage horse). But I certainly don't think he's a freakish mover - just a very nice mover. I only hope I can preserve those gaits once he's under saddle.

I am jealous. You just can't beat those old Crabbet lines for producing good-minded athletes. And I say that even though my Arabs are predominantly Polish. :)

Good luck with that baby. He's going to be special. And please keep us posted on how he does.

I didn't notice the knee action with Aul Magic. He was marvelously athletic and just oozed charisma. And he's a little guy, too. Probably 14.3 at most.

Edited to add: Now you tell me he's got a blanket, too. I really am jealous. Pictures, please, whenever you get a chance. I'd love to see him.

Sandy M
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:27 PM
TS, while I agree with some of what you say, the "war horse" derivation for dressage has actually long since been discredited. "Dressage" as an exemplar of horse training is now said to have evolved more from the "carousel" exhibitions of the nobility of the 16th century onward, rather than war horses. So.... I don't think "heavy and obedient" are necessarily the criteria. Nor do I necessarily think that "spectacular to the verge of unrideable" unless you are a VERY talented rider is the ideal, either. Surely, somewhere in the middle ground - as you say, fluid, forward, brilliant but with athletic rather than nervous tension, a willing obedientce rather than barely contained, etc.????

monstrpony
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:29 PM
When I think dressage, I think about stoic, explicitely trained military horses who are regimented, thorough and methodic, trustworthy, precision for combat, etc. They are heavy and unflappable. They are not hot and likely to run away with you. I think of horses who would face an attacker and bring you his head on a plate. Not a horse who is flighty, flashy, and electrified. I just always go back to the roots of the sport and that makes me realize how what we have in the show rings today is really really far from what it might ought to be. Ask yourself why dressage was cultivated? Was it to prove you had the hottest and flashiest horse, or was it to make sure you lived through the battle and got back home at the end of the day?


Honey, you don't survive battle on something heavy and unflappable. The energy plays a role there, as well--it's called intimidation (not to mention getting out of the way in a hurry ...). And that's why the training and control of all of that energy is so important (control by both the horse AND the rider, hence temperament with athletic ability is important).

But I don't think the historical origins have any bearing on this discussion, because we aren't living in history, we're living today. If competitive dressage has morphed into something a little different, so be it--it is what it is, take it or leave it. Which you seem to be having trouble with, alas.

I still think that's a pretty spectacular horse.

mp
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:37 PM
you simply picked the wrong bulletin board to post this on.

Oh look! We've got a new mod.

Auventera Two
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:37 PM
Nor do I necessarily think that "spectacular to the verge of unrideable" unless you are a VERY talented rider is the ideal, either. Surely, somewhere in the middle ground - as you say, fluid, forward, brilliant but with athletic rather than nervous tension, a willing obedientce rather than barely contained, etc.????

Yep, I definitely agree with that. Somewhere in the middle ground is probably the best thing. I just hate the see the sport migrate more and more toward that "almost over the edge, pushing the envelope right to the breaking point" mentality.

canyonoak
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:43 PM
Hello?

1. This is a THREE YEAR OLD horse.

2. His gaits are not freakish. They are elastic and supple.
Frankly, Hilda Gurney's legendary TB, Keen, moved almost this 'freakishly' --and back in those good old days, once received a score of 4 on the trot, with the comment "too much suspension".
Keen. An American Thoroughbred. what? 30 years ago? Moved pretty much like this. That is why Hilda bought him.

3. What is amazing to me is the fact that this young horse can perform this well under such conditions. BUT this is also due to the masterful riding by a 'young horse' ace, Christian Flamm. That is why he is the one on the horse-- to SHOW OFF the horse. To SHOWCASE the horse. TO provide a way for people to see the horse in public setting.

This horse's movement has very little in common with gaited horses: THIS horse, UNDER SADDLE, carrying a rider, continues to swing and maintain an elastic connection, even as he flexes his joints and pushes into the next stride.

I have never seen a gaited horse do this.

I have seen horses-other-than-warmbloods do this, Aul Magic being an outstanding example. Of course, Aul Magic is beloved not by breeders of Arabians-for-breed but by breeders of Arabians for sport<g>.

This horse, Quaterback, is bred for SPORT.

The SPORT of dressage.

I realize that this is a BB, and that some people really enjoy seeing their posts, seeing their screen names, getting people to reply in an emotional fashion.

it is a moment of power, and humans love to have moments of power.

But frankly, this horse should humble us all.

he has no human emotions. he trusts his rider enough to stay composed while a bunch of humans jump up and down scremaing and clapping and whooping and hollering.

I'd rather be on this horse and jump through the fires of hell than most of the horses I know.

I shall now go and ride my own lesser horses, and hope I have the humor and humility to enjoy them, and hope they trust me enough to give me even a bit of the partnership this young horse shows.

bludejavu
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:47 PM
This is my first ever post on the dressage forum but I have to comment on Quaterback as being the most gorgeous mover I've ever seen in a dressage horse. I'm not a dressage person and my training and interests lie with Saddlebreds, but I can appreciate athleticism and grace in any breed, as well as star quality. I would say that 3 year old is blessed with all three of those virtues. I couldn't find the in-hand video to watch but the under saddle video was amazing. I loved his suspended animation and personna - truly an incredible stallion!

retrofit
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:47 PM
When I think dressage, I think about stoic, explicitely trained military horses who are regimented, thorough and methodic, trustworthy, precision for combat, etc. They are heavy and unflappable. They are not hot and likely to run away with you. I think of horses who would face an attacker and bring you his head on a plate. Not a horse who is flighty, flashy, and electrified.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the directives of the FEI tests before telling everyone what an upper-level prospect is, or isn't.

mp
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:49 PM
Great post, canyonoak.

PS -- and I thought I'd be the only one here who knew about Aul Magic. ;)

Sandy M
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:53 PM
Edited to add: Now you tell me he's got a blanket, too. I really am jealous. Pictures, please, whenever you get a chance. I'd love to see him.

I have never figured out how to post pics from my desk top to the BB. However, he is here:

http://www.confettifarms.com

Go to the sale horses and look at "Confetti's Magic Marker."

slc2
Dec. 1, 2006, 12:56 PM
The idea that dressage came straight out of the military and is all about heavy horses is patently absurd.

karl mikolka is one who has repeatedly publicly disproven the idea that dressage has all its roots in military.

But the idea that miltary is all about heavy horses under some sort of control is nuts.

One of the most famous cavalry divisions of all time made their charge with the bits slipped from the horse's mouths - no turning back, and yes, no real fine control. C

Cavalry and war is not about precision riding most of the time, and the idea that caprioles and levades were battle moves is so absurd it's been hooted out of better places than here, despite how many times something is repeated in books like 'The world of horses' doesn't make it true.

Perhaps some of the confusion came out of the military sponsoring teams to participate in equestrian sport, one of their other traditional roles.

In fact, the military had dozens of different kinds of horses and cavalry had horses that varied for terrain and purpose in every country. The Polish cavalry had lightning strike divisions riding light, fast, hot horses, so did the Hungarian cavalry, followed up by heavier caisson horses pulling caisson (gun boxes) and artillery horses. There are many different kinds of cavalry, it has varied all over, but cavalry and dressage being one and the same is nuts. They aren't.

kelliope
Dec. 1, 2006, 01:00 PM
Be still my heart! I wish not for the money to own him, but for the talent to ride him as he should be ridden..........

Oh, you took the words right out of my mouth. Of course, I hadn't closed it yet as I was still watching the video! ;)