Incredible incredible horse

[mp]

Holy moley, Sandy. He looks good standing still, but those shots of him trotting are incredible. Enjoy!

[FoxxxyStarr]

2. His gaits are not freakish. They are elastic and supple.
Frankly, Hilda Gurney's legendary TB, Keen, moved almost this 'freakishly' --and back in those good old days, once received a score of 4 on the trot, with the comment "too much suspension".
Keen. An American Thoroughbred. what? 30 years ago? Moved pretty much like this. That is why Hilda bought him.
it is good to see that the judges agree with me. i find this much suspension displeasing to the eye. more is not always better.
This horse's movement has very little in common with gaited horses: THIS horse, UNDER SADDLE, carrying a rider, continues to swing and maintain an elastic connection, even as he flexes his joints and pushes into the next stride.

I have never seen a gaited horse do this.
i suggest you look harder then? or perhaps what you are truly looking for is a breed specific type of movement? that would explain much.

[Sandy M]

Holy moley, Sandy. He looks good standing still, but those shots of him trotting are incredible. Enjoy!

Thanks, I am very excited about this. Should I tell Quatermaster to look out?? ROFLOL~!!!! (just kidding, of course!!!)

Of course, I also think I'm slightly crazy. I'm not exactly a kid any more, though I'm in pretty good shape for my age. I've helped people with youngsters, but I've always in the past bought horses that were at least "green broke." And of course, I get sort of choked up, because while I made a very rational decision in purchasing this young gelding (I THINK I did - but it's going to be a financial crunch), I've owned and loved my older guy for so long (see profile pic), that I keep saying, "I really didn't want a new horse. I just want the one I've got to be 5 again!"

[siegi b.]

Oh no.....!!!! The Trailblazzer is back in all its ignorant and argumentative glory. :-) Let's run for cover and find a thread she has not contaminated yet.

[Bronte]

Oh no.....!!!! The Trailblazzer is back in all its ignorant and argumentative glory. :-) Let's run for cover and find a thread she has not contaminated yet.

Yep, looks that way to me! Let's remember, classical mismatchers, like *** fill in your favourite name, are not discussing the topic, they just getting their jollies out of trolling.

Shame, must be awful to live that way!

[slc2]

those are the nicest color sport horses i have ever seen anyplace. nice job, sandy m!!

[indyblue]

I dont think it is TB.Different writing style to TB but still familiar.No capitals which irks me and reads way to much into peoples posts.Doesnt seem to like dressage or have much understanding of it yet still speaks with a power of authority on the subject.Why come to this forum ?

[citydog]

That original video was interesting to watch, thanks for posting the link.

I wonder, in 50 years, will we watch that clip and say, "What a horse!" or "What were we thinking?!"

[asb_own_me]

I went back and looked at the video again and I DID find something wrong with this horse. I CAN'T AFFORD HIM :lol:

Seriously though, this is a very nice horse who, IMO, will be capable of doing anything. Most likely, though, because of his movement he will become a dressage horse.

To the folks who think that because he is too good, that that, somehow makes him not good enough.............When you get beat in the dressage arena whilst riding those all arounders, please don't whine ;)

This is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for :yes:

Amen, amen, amen. To EVERYTHING you just said!!!

With that sort of talent and temperament to be so relaxed and supple in such an electric atmosphere, especially at the age of three, who gives a rat's arse if you can trail ride him? Seriously. Besides, if you can afford him, then you can afford to buy another horse to trail ride with :winkgrin:

[asb_own_me]

Repeat after me - HOCK INJECTIONS.

The horse is bloody 3 years old ferchristsake. THREE. He's doing all this under saddle at 3???

All what? Walk trot and canter? As someone else pointed out - he would do a hell of a lot more out in a field playing. He was relaxed and easy as could be in that arena and the rider was not pushing him. Where's the harm?

[slc2]

actually a wealthy lady i know had a very fancy youngster like this that she imported and spend a huge wad on. she trail rode him all the time. aside from a bare *** little bit of dressage schooling, as a youngster, he did hill work, jumped cross country, and YES, she got the mail out the mailbox from his back on the way home. and the barn i worked at that started and prepped nice youngsters like these (not quite this high a calibre, but nice), they ALSO were trail ridden with a pack of mangey houngs and one rider with a parrot on her shoulder. they sometimes drank beer while they rode, does that make it better?

[kkj]

All what? Walk trot and canter? As someone else pointed out - he would do a hell of a lot more out in a field playing. He was relaxed and easy as could be in that arena and the rider was not pushing him. Where's the harm?

Actually no. Having to balance with a rider sitting on your very immature back and being ridden like he is- held up and together by a very talented rider is much harder on the back and joints especially the stifles and hocks than careening around the pasture. (just ask a very good lameness vet who treats all the soft tissue and hock issues on these horses before they are 6)

I love the "freakish" movement of horses like this one, Florencio, Farbenfroh what have you. I am a big dressage fan, but I do agree a little with TS on some stuff.

There is a big money incentive and these horses are being pushed. He is ridden in a way that many German trainers too (those who blast the auction riding style) would take issue with. My horse was started by a European trainer who has sent horses on to international competition. He said to me, "we do not sit on them when they are three. We don't use very short reins and high hands like they do at the auction. The horse must get strong in the back. It must stretch to the contact, you can not restrain them so much and hold them back." This horse is very tight and not stretching at all. His neck looks shorter than it is. He is wide behind because he is being pushed. A horse might run around for a stride or two in such carriage when it is excited but it would not maintain a frame like that for the extended period of time that the rider has insured that he has. This rider is not just sitting there out of the way and having this horse show it self off. He is a very skilled rider with abs of steel who is sitting on and holding the horse in this carriage. Just watch the video again and see what happens when the horse wants to stretch down. The average rider (assuming they could sit his movement) could not hold this horse together like this.

Also, I love this horse and think he has a ton of talent and potential, but those of you who suggest that this is how the horse would go free are way off base. A rider like this has a ton of influence on the horse's way of going without being obvious about it. That is why these riders become famous for showing off the young ones. For example, Hans Peter Minderhoud and Florencio. I love Florencio, but the way Hans Peter shows him off, let's just say he really enhances the horse. When Florencio went to the Dutch testing and was ridden by a woman, his gaits and impression were much less. I just firmly believe the rider is doing more with this horse than many of you think.

Also, I will assert again that the horse is prone to a passagey trot when he is held up in this frame and quite frankly has no where to go.

Maybe he is only ridden like this at the show to show himself off. Maybe he is usually allowed longer reins and the opportunity to develop his back. But there are other competitions on the horizons and many more opportunities to push the horse. He may make it and he may very well not.

For a large percentage of the horses that don't make it- those who may not be obviously lame or have a soft tissue injury or need hock injections, but are just not right, you know they loose the spark and are no longer so dynamic, I honestly think a lot of them have undiagnosed back problems. If you could nuke scan the lot of them, I bet a large percentage of their backs would light up.

Some of you seem to think that all German training (or winning German training) is divine. Anyone who disagrees or feels this is pushing the horses is a stupid American amateur. In America, they invented this artificial way of having the horse carry its head low and loose its balance. Americans are fools to have the horse seek the contact and not hold its neck in so tight. People who do this must also run their horses around in deep footing and longe all the time. And all German horses are started and after a month are ready to win training level and then turned out to live the life for a few months in a big green pasture. Yeah right. A lot of the horses in Germany almost never get out or are raised in stalls. A lot are pushed and broken down but no worry they have so many quality horses there, it is just on to the next one. A lot of the brightest flames burn out so quickly-- Poetin, Fuerst Heinrich etc etc etc.

I don't ride with my horses nose on the ground or do natural horsemanship stuff or spend years at training level. I ride in rubber footing with a nationally successful FEI trainer. My horse was raised in a large pasture and not started until she was over three. She is ready for FEI 5 year olds and I did not sit on her back when she was 3.

[Dalfan]

i find this much suspension displeasing to the eye.

You must be joking? Perhaps because your brain has told your eye you would probably never be able to ride it! There is nothing "freakish" about his movement. At all. You are just probably not used to seeing such movement.

[FoxxxyStarr]

You must be joking? Perhaps because your brain has told your eye you would probably never be able to ride it! There is nothing "freakish" about his movement. At all. You are just probably not used to seeing such movement.
on the contrary, i am quite serious. such movement is becoming more and more common, and those on many dressage bulletin boards do not even seem to know that other types of movement exist. i have always found this type of movement visually displeasing, and i see no reason why this would mean i am a less competent horseperson. i find the movement exaggerated and wasteful, and i am entitled to this as my opinion. just as your are entitled to prefer such movement. why must one of us be stupid or ignorant? is there not room for people to disagree? my confusion comes from the fact that the video of this young show horse was posted on a dressage forum, and then people are shocked and appalled when not everyone is ready to breed to this unproven horse. i hope his passagey trot and moving wide behind are straightened out. he will most likely have a valuable future in the Warmblood world. but why post this on a dressage forum? would you not jump at the chance to criticize pictures from other breed's shows?

[eventing-n-SD]

I think I MIGHT know who bought the Reserve Champion stallion in the 2nd video...the one that is free in the ring and then shown in hand (Sandro Hit x Plaisir d'Amour). I don't want to name names because I'm not 100% certain, but if I'm correct he'll be coming to San Diego.

[Dalfan]

I'm curious. What exactly bothers you about his movement?

I did not call you ignorant or stupid. Sorry if I gave that impression.

And you keep calling him a "show horse". He is far from being a show horse at this point in his young life. He's just a baby, under saddle for probably not more than 2 months, doing w-t-c. Not a big deal. But a show horse? No.

What better forum than a dressage forum to view what many in the dressage world strive for?

[FoxxxyStarr]

I'm curious. What exactly bothers you about his movement?

I did not call you ignorant or stupid. Sorry if I gave that impression.

And you keep calling him a "show horse". He is far from being a show horse at this point in his young life. He's just a baby, under saddle for probably not more than 2 months, doing w-t-c. Not a big deal. But a show horse? No.

What better forum than a dressage forum to view what many in the dressage world strive for?
i don't think he's a terrible mover or anything like that. he is obviously a very beautiful and athletic horse. but his type of movement does not appeal to me and many others, and there is nothing wrong with this. as i said before, this horse has a passagey trot and exhibits what i feel to be too much suspension. we all know that the trot must have some suspension, but now it seems that suspension is being viewed as a desirable trait in itself rather than indicative of correct bearing. anyway, this airtime makes him a very eyecatching horse who will be able to wow the crowd, but i am not sure why this in particular so impresses the dressage people. Quaterback appears to be a show horse to me in that he is participating at an exhibition with the crowd as spectators? it looks like a horse show from the video, but if i am wrong i apologize. it is fine to strive for this type of horse, but many seem to be contemptuous towards those who do not. is there not room for all of us in the world of dressage?

[YoungFilly]

my horses never make me angry. they are magnificent creatures who bring me only joy and happiness. if riding your horse makes you mad, please take a break so as not to impart that negative energy onto them.

ahh yes, dressage is different. i have heard this before. nothing can compare to it, yes?


Gee, I sense someone who is twisting my words and is trying to get me PO'd and give them a fight. Good luck! :lol:

[Dalfan]

Really, it is not fair to judge him because afterall, he is just a baby. I would expect to see faults (ie, wide behind, strength in the hind, using the front a little more than what some might desire) at this stage of development and in his training. Having all that against him, what he does display in really just natural gifts is breathtaking to watch. He is very impressive, doubly so for his age and in that kind of environment. I would expect in 2 years, with correct training, he will be truly phenomenal.

Foxy; Your style of writing and thought is very familiar. I notice you joined Nov 30. Why the alter?

[chicki]

Ok I NEED to interject here. Besides being appealing to the eye, there is a function to that trot, there is a reason they breed for that, and it all relates to his ability to do dressage. Everyone here is argueing whether or not the horse was "trained" to do passage. He is just three,and even if he was asked for tiny steps, which I myself highly doubt, he is doing passagy movement DAMN WELL.Take your three year old all arounder out. Take and ride him 4 months walk trot canter..hey TRY and get half the passage out of him that this horse shows with his sort of passagy movement.I doubt anyone in the world could get much passage out of the draft cross I own, let alone at three yeards old!! She isnt built or bred for it. This horse is on the other extreme. My point is, there is a real good chance this horse is doing that passagy movement just by himself, with not real initiative other than being held back a tad. That is called ability. It is easy for the horse to compress and direct that energy upward. This is what 99 percent of the dressage horses out there lack and this is why not all horses are going to do grand prix. Anyone who is serious about dressage competition can see the INCREDIBLE value in this horses gaits, because we all know that EVERYTHING is going to be easy for this horse. That is what every competative dressage rider wants. Talent and natural ability. And that is something you dont train..it is there from birth. I think it's hilarious that people who arent competative in dressage even comment about their perception about this horses value as a dressage horse. Really, he wasn't bred to appeal to trail riders and people who are into little local shows. He was bred for the international competative dressage arena, and that is where he will knock the socks off everyone who knows what a dressage horse is supposed to be. End of story.

[goeslikestink]

chicki you took the owrds right out of mouth echo you --------


got my vote matey

[MEP]

would you not jump at the chance to criticize pictures from other breed's shows?

No!!! why would I want to go to another breed's forum, or another disciplines' forum and criticize their style and preferences. Doing that is just going to make me look like a brawler, an idiot, or a troll. I asked in a post a long ways back on this thread, why criticize another breed for not moving like a warmblood, why criticize a warmblood for not moving like another breed??? What's the point, just to irritate the people who love that type of horse? What does that get you?

Also, I think people often forget that there are different levels of competition in any discipline:

First, there is the local level. I, for one, am a local level rider. I ride for pleasure, to learn more, and will show a little bit in the local shows. I'm very happy with a nice horse, pleasant movement, maybe an all-rounder. Very appropriate horse for that level.

Then there are people who compete regionally, and if you're going to score high enough to win awards, you might want some fancier movement, but an all-rounder can still be competitve at this level.

Then there is the National level. Have to have a pretty fancy horse to compete nationally, and the higher the level (FEI), then the fancier the horse has to be.

Then there's the International level. Well, if you want to win, you need to have bigger movement, more suspension, etc.

Sometimes I think people confound the international level with the local level. For example, this breathtaking stallion is bred for the highest levels of sport, whether from jumping lines or dressage lines. He was bred very specifically for the highest levels of sport - not as an all-rounder. Not that he couldn't be a trail horse, but why make that his goal in life, when he is suitable to show at the highest levels. As others have said, it would be ridiculous for a rider like me with local level skills and abilities to ride such a horse (scary to watch!!!), but that doesn't mean that I can't drool over him and appreciate him for what he is.

And yes, as a local level rider (and longtime COTH subscriber), I mostly lurk on this dressage board, and sometimes participate, just because there are people here who do compete seriously and do have more information than I have. But I also observe the people who come in to argue and dissent often for what appears to be no other reason than to annoy people. Why? What does it get you? Some sense of superiority because you are better? It gives you the sense that you know more, you've been there and left it behind? You're a brave dissenter? It just doesn't come off that way.

There has been some interesting discussion about the quality of the trot, traveling wide behind, why & how to ride young horses, etc. Some people have interesting information and opinions to offer about these issues, conducive to constructive or informative discussion. Just going on and saying you don't like something in an inflamatory manner, why bother?

[ddashaq]

That is a gorgeous horse and this thread has been quite entertaining to read from start to finish.:)

[YoungFilly]

Hey, I just went back to go watch the video for the 10,000 time. I think they just put up more videos of others that participated in the parade. Maybe they are on to us. :winkgrin:

[nhwr]

ahh, so those who find dressage boring to watch are ignorant. sounds like those who dislike modern art. they just don't know enough to appreciate it, right? the whole point of dressage is that it SHOULD be boring to watch. the best ride is the one you don't even notice. that's why dressage is different from saddle seat.
Nope, not necessarily ignorant, maybe just not interested in dressage. Your analogy about modern art is right on target. Many don't care for it at all, couldn't say what makes a piece valuable and therefore would presume to try. Anyone who is interested in dressage and has the experience to know and/or taken the time to understand what the goals are knows the potential this horse represents. The rest of y'all? Well, some people just like to be the floating Baby Ruth in the punch bowl of life ;)

When I think dressage, I think about stoic, explicitely trained military horses who are regimented, thorough and methodic, trustworthy, precision for combat, etc. They are heavy and unflappable. They are not hot and likely to run away with you. I think of horses who would face an attacker and bring you his head on a plate. Not a horse who is flighty, flashy, and electrified. I just always go back to the roots of the sport and that makes me realize how what we have in the show rings today is really really far from what it might ought to be. Ask yourself why dressage was cultivated? Was it to prove you had the hottest and flashiest horse, or was it to make sure you lived through the battle and got back home at the end of the day?
This assumption is at odds with what dressage have been about since I have been involved with it (about 35+ years). Dressage is about the combination between the horse and rider of energy, submission and brilliance. The description you put forth is worthy of and could be achieved by a robot. It sounds slavish and demands the loss of individuality from a species that is inherently proud. Dressage is about partnership, respect and gaits, horse and rider pushing the envelope together, not rote drilling.

If you want to consider its military roots (which are largely over-emphsized as the origins of the sport), the horse that would provide the best advantage was the horse that was most athletic, that could collect and extend, elevate its front end and contain its energy with ease. It was up to the skillful rider to develop the horse and, more importantly, the relationship. This is the point that many choose to overlook because it places the burden of development squarely where it belongs, with the rider. But as always, it has always been easier to blame failure on the horse.

[canyonoak]

I have several screen names on my ignore list, but have seen enough quotes from posts to realize WHY, all over again, an Ignore List is a good thing.

Thank you , List Mods! for providing such a useful function.

That said, Im posting here again to say one more THANK YOU to ebt, eurobreederstour, for taking the time to put these exciting videos up for us to look at.

EBT and Horsedances make these BBs worthwhile for me, no matter what else goes on.

Noe, if only Santa or SInterklaas or anyone else could put high-speed on my list of presents, so I could WATCH these videos in this lifetime, I'd be a VERY good girl for the rest of the year.

hahahahahah

[mbm]

The excitement about Quaterback is not how high he is moving his knees and hocks.
The excitement is the elasticity and maintenance of balance and rhythm.



this is interesting and is making me think....

i think that 99% of the people that are gaga over this horse ARE gaga over that he lifts his legs SO HIGH and has that round movement going on.

and if you aren't impressed by how high he is lifting his legs and say you are impressed by his "elasticity and maintenance of balance and rhythm" - i would love to discuss what you are seeing.

i see a young horse that is extravagant in movement that is losing his balance (wide behind etc) has a bit of a hard time keeping rhythm... i am NOT saying this is bad - he is young and of course these things happen - i also see a horse that is supple and apparently has what folks call a great mind.

but i am just curious what you are seeing and why you say what you do?

[Dazednconfused]

But the truth is - you will rarely, if ever, see a crazy, freaky as heck, outlandish, make your jaw drop, mover in a 15 hand horse! Sometimes its not about more. Sometimes it is about refining the qualities which are present and using the training scale to improve the horse.

I suppose you should tell all those FEI-level German Riding Pony breeders that they might as well hang it up now then. ;)

[canyonoak]

all of you risking suspension: USE THE IGNORE LIST.

you are not going to change anyone else's mind, no matter how reasoned your explanantions.

if you read all the verbiage, you will pollute your brain.

much better to put the sillies on Ignore and just cruise through, just in case anyone has something interesting to say.
on the other hand, I will say that I LOFF this BB and the way the mods conduct business.

why, it's almost like being treated as a grown-up!


yayyyyyy (clapping hands, jumping up and down and making razzberry and other rude noises)

[nero]

this is interesting and is making me think....

i think that 99% of the people that are gaga over this horse ARE gaga over that he lifts his legs SO HIGH and has that round movement going on.

and if you aren't impressed by how high he is lifting his legs and say you are impressed by his "elasticity and maintenance of balance and rhythm" - i would love to discuss what you are seeing.

i see a young horse that is extravagant in movement that is losing his balance (wide behind etc) has a bit of a hard time keeping rhythm... i am NOT saying this is bad - he is young and of course these things happen - i also see a horse that is supple and apparently has what folks call a great mind.

but i am just curious what you are seeing and why you say what you do?


i think you might be missing the fact that those that love this horse are not just going crazy ape for how 'high' he lifts his legs, that would be oversimplifying what we are seeing, and saying. Its the cadence, suspension, suppleness and rhythm that makes him so special, and the promise of things to come, the natural expression is just something that all these other qualities enable. He is soooo much more than just another 'leg mover'.

[Horsedances]

I have put Two Simple under my ignore button, so please don't quote her or his nonsens.

Thanks

[mbm]

Nero i understand that.... i was specifically wanting to learn what canyonoak is seeing when she/he says that it isn't the legs that are impressing - it is the "elasticity and maintenance of balance and rhythm"..

i dont see more of those things that i have in many other wonderful young horses.

i was truly asking to learn.

[bugsynskeeter]

I ride reiners, cutters, and western pleasure horses. But I appreciate a talented horse, no matter what discipline...

And this horse is simply stunning! Hope I didn't ruin my keyboard from all the drooling I did...

[Dalfan]

i think that 99% of the people that are gaga over this horse ARE gaga over that he lifts his legs SO HIGH and has that round movement going on.

How presumptious of you to think you know why 99% of us are "gaga" over this horse. For my part, it's the whole picture, physical and mental, which is not even close to being complete for this boy. I'm gaga over him IN SPITE of how high he lifts his legs. He's young, inexperienced, weak and unbalanced, as he should be. But I think MOST of us see, because of his natural gifts, what he WILL become with proper training.

[justasmidge]

I loff this horse.

But I admit to some confusion?

Yes, the reins are short and he is being sat on. BUT, he is being sat upon by Christain Flamm, which is very different than being sat upon by "Joe (Or Joey) Sixpack". It is also very, very possible that he is helping this horse along. I am sure he is a bit. But you can't make a 6, 7, 8 mover into a 10 mover, especially as a three- year- old.

And anyhow (on to the confusion bit). This horse is being ridden IN A STALLION PARADE. This is an exhibition, where they want to SHOW OFF their gorgeous young stallion.

Just because you see a show- like presentation here, dosen't mean he isn't pulled out of the field once or twice a week, posting trot, lots of stretching. Maybe he is just gathered up near the end and sat on for a few minutes to get him used to the idea??

You just can't always assume.

[nhwr]

canyonoak,
The only other BB I participate on is political. There my signature line is "Silence the idiots. Use the Ignore list :D "

Parting shot (before I employ that feature here);

Bucephalus was arguably the most renown and brilliant "military" horse in history. How did he end up with Alexander the Great? No one else could ride him. But he was Alexander's faithful mount :yes:

I am nowhere near a good enough rider to bring out the best in a horse like this. But I am a enough of a fan of dressage to appreciate him.

[Sabine]

Good kid you are- and very right on the spot. A really good example of common sense and someone who has at least taken the time to study dressage to know what they are talking about....!
Welcome Chicki- good intuition and nice way to say it...

Ok I NEED to interject here. Besides being appealing to the eye, there is a function to that trot, there is a reason they breed for that, and it all relates to his ability to do dressage. Everyone here is argueing whether or not the horse was "trained" to do passage. He is just three,and even if he was asked for tiny steps, which I myself highly doubt, he is doing passagy movement DAMN WELL.Take your three year old all arounder out. Take and ride him 4 months walk trot canter..hey TRY and get half the passage out of him that this horse shows with his sort of passagy movement.I doubt anyone in the world could get much passage out of the draft cross I own, let alone at three yeards old!! She isnt built or bred for it. This horse is on the other extreme. My point is, there is a real good chance this horse is doing that passagy movement just by himself, with not real initiative other than being held back a tad. That is called ability. It is easy for the horse to compress and direct that energy upward. This is what 99 percent of the dressage horses out there lack and this is why not all horses are going to do grand prix. Anyone who is serious about dressage competition can see the INCREDIBLE value in this horses gaits, because we all know that EVERYTHING is going to be easy for this horse. That is what every competative dressage rider wants. Talent and natural ability. And that is something you dont train..it is there from birth. I think it's hilarious that people who arent competative in dressage even comment about their perception about this horses value as a dressage horse. Really, he wasn't bred to appeal to trail riders and people who are into little local shows. He was bred for the international competative dressage arena, and that is where he will knock the socks off everyone who knows what a dressage horse is supposed to be. End of story.

[YoungFilly]

I ride reiners, cutters, and western pleasure horses. But I appreciate a talented horse, no matter what discipline...

And this horse is simply stunning! Hope I didn't ruin my keyboard from all the drooling I did...


So did I!!! (the part about enjoying western horses, and english horses)! There is the sweetest most loving *show* quarter horse in my barn. There is a difference between the unregisterd QH vs. the very well bred QH. I bet 100 dollars this QH is worth around 40-50 grand.

I had barrel horses in my youth, one of which was wicked,wicked fast. He went onto become Maine State Champiion. He was an awesome horse. but I sure can tell you he didn't have WB in him!

I bet my two horses now could beat my two horses from yester years in dressage anyday. But put my two others from yester years in barrel racing against them, they would be toast.

Oh, sure I could compete Odette in a NBHA cometition. I am so sure we would win. Heck, G is the more forward one. The thought did cross my mind because she would be game. Her body, and Odettes body, would never be able to take the torque a barrel horse does.

[lark_b]

\Hell, even the resident Dressage Expert Grandiose, SLC herself has said it many times that you don't go to a dressage clinic to be entertained. You don't go to a dressage show to be entertained. You go to learn and appreciate.

I've been reading this thread (while doing many other things, off and on) for hours, and this is the first time I have felt compelled to respond.

Maybe YOU don't. I do. I go to dressage shows because it's fun--that is to say, entertaining. I audit clinics for basically the same reason, because I learn by DOING pretty much exclusively. I just find it fun.

Nobody wants to ride a 16 hand, good mover. They want 17+++, the huger the better.

Um. I do! I don't want a huge horse with giant gaits. I can't sit them, and lots of people can't, not just me. I know lots of people who seek out small dressage horses. And they bring BIG bucks, too--check out the German Riding Pony.

Two Simple, you seem fond of making generalizations that don't apply to as many people as you think they do. It might be useful for you to sit on your hands for a few days or weeks and just read for a while... it's a good skill to learn, not to jump in constantly. I know, I still struggle with it :).

[FoxxxyStarr]

Ok I NEED to interject here. Besides being appealing to the eye, there is a function to that trot, there is a reason they breed for that, and it all relates to his ability to do dressage. Everyone here is argueing whether or not the horse was "trained" to do passage. He is just three,and even if he was asked for tiny steps, which I myself highly doubt, he is doing passagy movement DAMN WELL.Take your three year old all arounder out. Take and ride him 4 months walk trot canter..hey TRY and get half the passage out of him that this horse shows with his sort of passagy movement.I doubt anyone in the world could get much passage out of the draft cross I own, let alone at three yeards old!! She isnt built or bred for it. This horse is on the other extreme. My point is, there is a real good chance this horse is doing that passagy movement just by himself, with not real initiative other than being held back a tad. That is called ability. It is easy for the horse to compress and direct that energy upward. This is what 99 percent of the dressage horses out there lack and this is why not all horses are going to do grand prix. Anyone who is serious about dressage competition can see the INCREDIBLE value in this horses gaits, because we all know that EVERYTHING is going to be easy for this horse. That is what every competative dressage rider wants. Talent and natural ability. And that is something you dont train..it is there from birth. I think it's hilarious that people who arent competative in dressage even comment about their perception about this horses value as a dressage horse. Really, he wasn't bred to appeal to trail riders and people who are into little local shows. He was bred for the international competative dressage arena, and that is where he will knock the socks off everyone who knows what a dressage horse is supposed to be. End of story.
i very much disagree with this. i stated that Quaterback is exhibiting a passagey trot, not that he is performing the passage. this type of trot results from the horse sucking back as an evasion. untrained 3-yr olds do NOT know how to passage. that is a trained movement which can only be learned as a progression of collection. please refer to the training scale. this untrained horse can only begin his progression up the training scale once he has achieved rhythm and regularity. there can be no collection (yet), because none of the building blocks are there. the passagey trot is a fault because it shows the horse's unwillingness to go forward. perhaps it will resolve itself, but a passagey trot is the last thing you want for correct dressage. i am glad to have been given the opportunity to comment on your post, because it seems that many dressage riders make the same mistakes that you have made. mbm is correct. you all seem to be wowed by this beautiful horse's extravagant movement, but you haven't even stopped to think whether this type of movement is correct for dressage. dressage is about training, not about exaggerated movements. why post videos on dressage board if you do not wish for comments on the horse's training?

[Kathya11]

In a way it is like Quarterhorses or cutting horses or even race horses where the horse is a champion at 3 and 4 and done at 6 or 7.



With race horses, it's economic -- a stallion can make more money in the breeding shed than he can on the track. Get a precocious youngster who wins Grade 1 races at two, retire him at three, and make a bundle breeding him to 100+ mares a year. Who cares that it's ruining both the sport and the breed? Certainly not the big stallion farms like Coolmore and Ashford.

[egontoast]

The ignore button is brilliant. Don't forget to log in though because if you forget to log in you might accidentally injure your eyes.

There is a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Think Kathy Johnson v. Any Trainwreck Ho. Trolls like to cause trainwrecks. Put the trainwreckhos and/or trolls on ignore . They thrive on attention.

Thanks for posting the videos.

[hitchinmygetalong]

why post videos on dressage board if you do not wish for comments on the horse's training?

Didn't you state earlier in this entertaining trainwreck that the video was posted on the wrong forum? And wasn't the question posed to you, "Where should it be posted?"

You never answered that question. Quite the opposite, from the statement quoted above, it appears you have reversed your opinion.

And to answer YOUR question, why do people feel the need to "comment on the horse's training" when no critique was asked for? I honestly think they do it so they can then sit back from the keyboard and think about how smart they are.

As for the "I like it/I hate it" debate?

"You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, let's call the whole thing off." :lol:

I could watch that horse for hours. Beautiful animal. Thanks again for sharing the video!

[FoxxxyStarr]

Didn't you state earlier in this entertaining trainwreck that the video was posted on the wrong forum? And wasn't the question posed to you, "Where should it be posted?"

You never answered that question. Quite the opposite, from the statement quoted above, it appears you have reversed your opinion.

And to answer YOUR question, why do people feel the need to "comment on the horse's training" when no critique was asked for? I honestly think they do it so they can then sit back from the keyboard and think about how smart they are.
i would suggest that this video be posted in the appropriate breed forum? or perhaps there is a forum for those who show young horses? this is a dressage forum, and the video posted is not of a dressage horse. a beautiful horse, yes. but not a dressage horse.

[DanniS]

Oh Dear Me Foxxy Starr.
I beg to differ.
This horse was bred for dressage, please refer to his pedigree, what age do you recommend that he would be deemed a dressage horse?
Will he have to wait until he is an accomplished big tour horse?

Should you not be on a forum for trail riding horses? As all you seem to do is bilittle dressage and everything it entails.

[HXF]

Please, please, please ignore the trolls so this topic can get back on course. The development of the ignore function is like the discovery of fire. Really useful.:yes:

[FoxxxyStarr]

Oh Dear Me Foxxy Starr.
I beg to differ.
This horse was bred for dressage, please refer to his pedigree, what age do you recommend that he would be deemed a dressage horse?
Will he have to wait until he is an accomplished big tour horse?

Should you not be on a forum for trail riding horses? As all you seem to do is bilittle dressage and everything it entails.
did you not know that dressage horses are trained, not bred? you seem to want to have it both ways. while he has numerous faults, they are exusable because he is green broke. but the fact that he is green broke is precisely why he is *not* a dressage horse.

[DanniS]

Try and tell the Germans that dressage horses are not bred but trained!!
Yes he has numerous faults, when did anyone say he was perfect?
Actually please give me an example of the perfect horse, they don't exist.

If perfection is what you are looking for in this horse you have failed miserably.

Why is it that you can't just appreciate him for what he is and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills?

[MEP]

Just started my ignore list. edited to clarify: it was #329 that inspired me. edited to add: Ooooh, cool, now #329 is gone!

edited to clarify: Looks like the post numbers have changed (Of course, maybe I didn't have my glasses on!), but the post I was refering to is now #320. Specifically, I am NOT blocking DanniS - I've agreed with her posts, and am glad she's here to add something to the quality of the discussion.

[slc2]

It is really a shame that many people do not understand why horses with these gaits are good for upper level work. That's very sad. All they can know, however, is their own little world trhat they are in, which most likely, given the statistics for USA dressage, doesn't include any experience with training upper level horses. Sure, a few people have that experience - most don't.

This horse isn't 'passaging'. He is excited, so his gait has hesitations and moments where he pops up or lifts too much. You are mistaking that for a passage, which is also pretty sad.

However, because he can lift himself up and because he can bend all his joints and move with such fluidity, it shows he will be a superior dressage horse. He has an unbelievable freedom of motion.

Because of his fluidity, freedom of motion and innate strength, he has much less chance of getting hurt during the training process. He might get injured in the paddock or while being transported or getting loose, but he has far, far MORE chance of holding up to the work. The work is hard. It takes many, many years to train an upper level horse, and it is more hours in the saddle than most horses will be able to physically withstand.

Sad but true, and something most people don't want to believe - but the majority of horses that people attempt to get to the upper levels, will not make it. They will get arthritis in their hocks, usually, because they are working harder to try and do the work. We don't want to believe this, but sometime, look around you. Talk to people - you won't always get a straight answer, but quite frankly, a lot of horses can't stay in upper level work. They have to drop down, get retired, or do light work. Why? Because they don't have the conformation or the movement to make the work as easy as possible for them.

The only other choice with these horses is to do substandard work, without the degree of collection, the activity, the impulsion, and without the range of motion. That is what most less physically able horses do. They simply do poor quality work. They may win awards and give their owners a lot of pleasure, but they won't perform in the elite ranks. They may win at local shows, but they won't win where this horse is going.

And, there is a difference between schooling a horse like this and a horse that doesn't move like this.

There IS a difference.

I had a horse, nowhere near as nice as this one, but pretty damn nice, and a step up from the previous horse in gaits and balance. He had more lift to his canter and balanced like this one - like a little rubber ball, all in one perfectly balanced little package. No, not as good as this one, but pretty damn good.

And the previous horse, after 6 years of schooling, did not, for example, counter canter as well as this pretty damn nice horse.

People want to believe any horse can win the Olympics, and any horse can do grand prix dressage at a competition, and any horse can do FEI.

Sure they can. But competitively? Stay sound? Do it without straining their body? Do it with such grace? No. Don't even try to kid yourself.

This horse can.

[DanniS]

MEP you have a PM

[Kathy Johnson]

Oh, heck, Eggie. Does that mean I'm not a trainwreck ho? I beg to differ. I'm a veritable conductor.

[hitchinmygetalong]

i would suggest that this video be posted in the appropriate breed forum? or perhaps there is a forum for those who show young horses? this is a dressage forum, and the video posted is not of a dressage horse. a beautiful horse, yes. but not a dressage horse.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Now THAT is funny!

Following your "logic", I guess no one can ever post a video or pic of a promising young horse anywhere on COTH anymore, simply because there are no BREED forums. Discipline forums, yes. But no breed forums.

Surely you cannot deny that this horse shows great promise for the discipline of dressage, as opposed to say, endurance? So I maintain that the Dressage Forum on The Chronicle of the Horse bulletin board is a completely appropriate place to put it.

Which begs the next question: Why do you have such a burr under your tail about this video? I can't think of any logical reason for such vehemently negative postings.

[DownYonder]

For those who keep saying that this horse is green broke, I will repeat - most young stallions in Germany are started under saddle as coming 3 year olds. If this stallion followed the usual course, he was probably started last January or February. And don't forget he WON the 3 year old stallion class at the Bundeschampionat in late Aug. / early Sept. He had to have been under saddle for at least a few months beforehand because horses have to qualify for that show by earning appropriate scores at several qualifying competitions.

And I doubt very seriously the horse is ridden like this on a regular basis. He probably gets a light work out a few days a week that focuses on the basics, probably goes on a walkband (treadmill) every day, probably gets a little hack outside once or twice a week, probably gets turned out in an indoor arena once or twice a week. It is also very likely that he is only asked to "turn it on" under saddle when at (or when preparing for) a big exhibition such as the Oldenburg stallion show.

This next year will be very telling for this horse. He will start breeding in earnest within a few months, and his work program will probably be stepped up in early spring to start preparing him for the Y/H championships in June. It will be interesting to see how he handles all the breeding and increased work.

I wish him and his owners the best. He is a truly phenomenal horse. They say that horses like this come along once in a lifetime, but Brandenburg has now produced two such divine creatures (although, unlike Poetin, this one has another gait besides just the trot).

[DanniS]

Downyonder I applaud you, well said:yes:
Can I just say that we can't forget Samba Hit I & II(competing at Hengelo, and doing well today).

I am VERY excited for this stud and it's Principal Herr Jeurgun Mueller, they are getting the kudos they deserve

[Erin]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Which begs the next question: Why do you have such a burr under your tail about this video? I can't think of any logical reason for such vehemently negative postings.

Because she's trailblazer, trying to sneak back on the BB after being banned.

As for the rest of you -- at least, those who I didn't just send on a vacation for insulting people -- if you cannot have this discussion in an adult manner, the thread will be closed. I do not have time for this crap. Grow up, or you don't get to have the discussion.

And by the way, in the future, it is much more productive to email a moderator if you suspect a banned person has sneaked back onto the BB than to simply encourage them on a thread. Nothing like making me wade through 17 pages of posts on a Saturday morning... thanks. :rolleyes:

[hitchinmygetalong]

Oh Erin, you must have found something of redeeming value here! :winkgrin:

Sorry to have troubled you. It's a gorgeous day here, maybe we just all need to go out and ride.

[nhwr]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

give siegi b. the prize.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I got a big chuckle out the visual of Foxxxxxy Starrrrrr all blinged out blaiz'n trails.



Hope the wind doesn't die down by this afternoon. I am looking forward to Dorina giving me some of that "passagey" trot :D

[chicki]

I NEVER said the horse was doing a passage. Horses can exhibit "passagy" or "passage like" movements when excited, especially when excited. Yes I know it isn't actual passage and yes..I know it isnt correct, but when a horse BRED to do those movements, and to do them with such ease, gets excited and is held back in a sense, we get to see a bit of his ability in that area. Again..I KNOW it is not passage. The fact the YOU are lecturing other people on the basic tenents of dressage is laughable, considering the content of your previous posts on this topic LOL!
And whoever said that 99 percent of us like this horse because he lifts his kness high...pulease!!. If that were my thing I would be riding saddleseat on another breed of horse, because other horses can lift their knees and hocks a heck of a lot higher than this horse. The fact that you cannot see past the knee movement speaks volumes as to the value of your opinion on a dressage board.

[chicki]

Oh I just read the mods message. Foxy was previous banned??

[asb_own_me]

, they ALSO were trail ridden with a pack of mangey houngs and one rider with a parrot on her shoulder. they sometimes drank beer while they rode, does that make it better?

Only if she was able to double-fist it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: What's the use of that if you can only drink one beer at a time? :winkgrin:

[asb_own_me]

I thought "too much suspension" was an oxymoron? ;) This horse is gorgeous and talented regardless of what breed or discipline you prefer. Anyone who is a horse lover can appreciate him. Why are so many trolls so determined to find fault in a three year old in a stallion parade??? Just enjoy the show.

[canyonoak]

if you are referring to my post where I said Keen once got marked down for "too much suspension"...I was using that as a sign of how ignorant even some judges were when faced with a horse that possesses super gaits and outsized elasticity,etc.

The only way one can talk about too much of something is if it interferes with the horse's balance and/or rhythm.

Same as talking about too little of something.

hahahahah

[slc2]

That would be incorrect. In fact that would be quite incorrect.

A horse CAN have too much suspension in the collected trot. An overly cadenced, 'passagey' collected trot is incorrect, and it is marked down.

It depends on who is talking; some people make a distinction between 'hovering, hesitant steps' in the collected trot, and 'passagelike' steps in the collected trot. To the novice eye both may seem similar.

Both, however, are incorrect.

In fact, a horse can have too much 'suspension' (defined as time when all 4 feet are off the ground), however, it would be unusual for a horse to have too much susepnsion, simply because most horses don't have enough suspension.

Keen, in fact, DID, at some points in time, have too much 'suspension' in the sense that he had too much cadence in collected trot. This is a fault, and it has always been a fault, and always will be. The collected trot is not supposed to be passagey. However, Hilda Gurney was a fast learner. Although I doubt Hilda Gurney would say so publicly (maybe she would, she doesn't exactly worry about being real politically correct), Keen was a horse with very difficult conformation and I was always amazed how well she did with him. She is and was a brilliant rider.

[canyonoak]

<<A horse CAN have too much suspension in the collected trot. An overly cadenced, 'passagey' collected trot is incorrect, and it is marked down.>.

which would interfere with the balance and the rhythm.

I rest my case.

[fiona]

The ignore button is brilliant. Don't forget to log in though because if you forget to log in you might accidentally injure your eyes.
Brilliant advice!!! If you are unfortunate enough to accidentally injure your eyes you'll find they can be refreshed, repaired and left bright and sparkly by watching the beautiful athletic adonis of a horse that EBT thoughtfully posted a video of.

[egontoast]

Oh, heck, Eggie. Does that mean I'm not a trainwreck ho? I beg to differ. I'm a veritable conductor.


Dear Kathy,

You may well be a ho but not of the trainwreck variety.

Yet.

[egontoast]

The problem with a 'passagey trot' TM is not because it has 'too much suspension'. That's not it.

It's a problem because the horse is sucking back and gets stuck. If the horse can easily make transitions within the gait it is NOT a 'passagey trot'. I get the impression that most if not all of the people who are commenting on the 'passagey trot' have no idea what it is.

It is obvious when you see it. The horse is stuck. It's an evasion.

[asb_own_me]

if you are referring to my post where I said Keen once got marked down for "too much suspension"...

No, someone else! Who unfortunately came off as uber-jealous ;) And now there are too many posts missing, love that ignore feature, LOL, so I can't see the comment!!!

I agreed with your post and slc2's post after, that yes it can be a bad thing - within a certain element (collected trot). But overall, just watching this young horse work? Gorgeous!

[EqTrainer]

A passagey trot is when the horse is a LEG mover and not a back mover. The legs are moving... but the energy is not flowing thru. It is indeed a version of being sucked back, but IMO more an issue of energy being stuck rather than the horse being truly sucked back (ie: I DON'T WANNA GO!).
'

[canyonoak]

a passagey or 'hovering' trot does indeed mark a horse as a leg mover--and it is because the horse tightens/locks/drops the back aka loses schwung, , aka no longer takes the contact, etc etc.

Basically, there is not enough forward.

Anyone who can look at Quaterback and think that he has a passagey trot and is a leg mover...well, all I can say is--if you have one like this and you don't like it or want it, let me know and I'll arrange transportation.

[EqTrainer]

Canyonoak - agreed! And if *that's* a leg mover I would gladly have a whole barn full of them.

[Home Again Farm]

Canyon oak wrote: Quaterback is not a freak of nature. He is not some outlandish, modish, exaggerated cartoon.

He is a living, breathing 3-year-old stallion (almost 4).

I kind of suspect his walk is better than a 7.5, especially if he is at home and not under the extreme atmosphere of a stallion days arena.

I kind of suspect that the 'wide behind' is going to go away as he develops strength--this has been the case of any young stallion/horse I have sat on/ watched being trained (correctly):

But , in training-- if you don't ask--you'll never know.

I kind of suspect that Christian Flamm (hats off to this guy--he can REALLY ride and not ruin a horse) realizes that he and the horse have a few minutes in a stallion days ring to show off--and one goes with what one gets.

He is NOT showing off the training. He is NOT showing off a finished product.

He IS showing off a potential, a fantasy that one hopes becomes reality.

To talk about the little glitches that occurred in this video as though they matter--well, it makes me wonder if anyone actually trains horses here...because such talk is all so silly.

And see how subjective and argumentative that last sentence is..?

Can't we all just agree that this is a great horse? That he is extremely well-presented...?

That I wish we could get Flamm over here to give a Young Horse seminar..?

From my perspective, I simply cannot understand anyone who can watch the video and not see a great athlete.
Beautifully put. This is a spectacular young athlete, ridden tactfully and well. I wait with eager anticipation to see what he produces. That will tell what he is as a stallion. Breeders must be patient. :yes::winkgrin:

I also wait patiently to see what he does in performance, and hope that he fulfills the promise of today. I'm not a chestnut person, but I could become one when they move like this. ;)

[asb_own_me]

Anyone who can look at Quaterback and think that he has a passagey trot and is a leg mover...well, all I can say is--if you have one like this and you don't like it or want it, let me know and I'll arrange transportation.

May I help you arrange that transportation? And then I would get a flat tire for a few years :winkgrin:

[fiona]

Dream on people, i told them already the americans think the horse is useless so his career is all but over, i'm nearer and just happen to have a spare stable in an undisclosed location. Luckily i just love a so called passagey trot!

[asb_own_me]

ROFL Fiona! May I come visit at this undisclosed location???

[fiona]

absolutely, the exchange rate is pretty straightforward, just nominate your most precious body organ and we'll conveniently remove it at the gate.

[asb_own_me]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, he's worth it ::hmmmmmm:: I have two lungs, two kidneys, I could sell part of my liver.....I don't really *need* all my skin :winkgrin:

[fiona]

'Course if you're willing to sell your soul to my colleague DevilEgontoast* you may...just may, get to ride.

*pronounced Devil the egontoast is (surprisingly) silent, it is england after all

[egontoast]

Ok I'll throw in some nose hairs, navel lint and one of my tonsils.

offtoharvestnasalhair

[indyblue]

Ive got some spare fat Ill donate and a mole thats grown on my face complete with a hair.

[slc2]

too bad the test for that horrible suspension is flawed.

[canyonoak]

<<...And this can happen in any breed. I have a video at home of a cute little Arabian colt I was interested in purchasing. But he was all "bounce" and no "go." He pranced around on little springs going bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, and never did exhibit any good working gaits. He was about 2 and not under saddle of course, but when asked by the lunge whip to move out, he would swing his head around and bounce higher. ...>>>


And that is called 'leg-mover' and lack of schwung.

I rest my case.

[mistyjewell]

OK, I'm jumping on this late, but while he has a lot of suspension, I can't see where anyone would get that he doesn't move forward from his trot. The horse is 3, most horses don't have as much push and forward impulsion as this one does. And at this age you can still see he is able to collect and lengthen his stride at the trot while maintaining his suspension.

I'm in the camp of if you don't like him I'll take him. *grin*

[WBLover]

HOLY TROT--BATMAN!!

I'll take him!!!

[Riva]

I will take that horse any day of the week. Even tho I know I couldn't ride him at the moment (or at least, not the way he deserves to be ridden,) I'll still take him :winkgrin:

Someone I know saw the clip and thought it looked like the rider was working very hard to sit that trot. What do you guys think??

It doesn't look like he's having that much trouble to me, but I have a very amateur eye for that kind of thing.

[tarnia]

An idea. When I hear people describing dressage to a non-dressage person- ie what it is-i almost always hear the phrase "ballet on horseback" (or some derivative of that). ALMOST ALWAYS. However, as TS pointed out, it evolved from the military, and these moves were meant to be military moves. Not many people know/remember this. Extreme balance, etc were obviously needed in the military, but did they need to look pretty? Probably not ;) Not used to describe dressage now, generally. However, considering it is now an artistic sport, they do. Possibly part of the reason some people aren't reaching a consensus, even when bringing ballet dancers in as an example of supremacy in their field paralleled to Quaterback?

Sorry, just throwing that idea/my two cents out there, for what it is worth:P

Gorgeous horse, even to my uneducated eye. And I'm learning a lot by reading people's responses!

[kkj]

I think the horse has an amazing ability to move through his whole body. He has a great talent for going and coming back. He also has a great talent for passage. I love the way he moves.

Still I think he is held in too short of a frame that is not right for him at this stage in his development. The first few strides as he enters the ring are very passagey, not because he is a leg mover or evading anything but because he is held up in a frame that is too confining for him.

Again maybe it is just for the stallion show because the rider is really showing him off. Maybe he is not ridden like this on a regular basis.

[Sandy M]

But if I understand what slc said earlier on this thread, everything I've ever been taught about dressage being derived from the military is wrong. According to her, dressage had nothing to do with the military. So I guess all the other hundreds of people who have said that it DID derive from the military are wrong. :confused: *shrug* oh well.

There was an article in Dressage Today a year or so ago debunking the idea of military derivation for dressage. While I realize that Dressage Today is not an "oracle" of dressage, it's pretty reputable as to what the dressage establishment believes, so.... The three-day event IS evolved from the military, but the dressage phase of the 3-day was originally based more on the idea of obedience and parade ground maneuvers - and was originally held as the LAST phase. Bet they got VERY obedient tests AFTER all the endurance phases were complete!

Personally, I had always questioned the supposed "battle" derivation. I hardly think that a knight in armour would have time to cue his horse to capriole or levade or courbette and a courbette-ing horse would easily be struck down by an opponent. While that might protect the rider, he'd then be on foot and more vulnerable, so military.... I don't think so.

[Dalfan]

The first few strides as he enters the ring are very passagey, not because he is a leg mover or evading anything but because he is held up in a frame that is too confining for him.

Your first nine words could be the clue to why he had a "passagey" trot. I'm surprised he didn't jump out of his skin. To have that much poise and control when entering such an electrified environment says a ton about his temperament. I'll forgive him his "passagey" trot.

[Tonja]

This isn’t the DT article but it does summarize the history of the development of the Equestrian Art.
http://www.ridingart.com/history-of-equitation.htm

[mp]

I have seen paintings depicting horses in battle doing a capriole or levade, etc. and I do wonder where the artists got this crazy idea from, if its all false.

The same way they figured out that Jesus was a fair-skinned man with light-brown shoulder length hair and a neatly trimmed beard.

[EqTrainer]

Your first nine words could be the clue to why he had a "passagey" trot. I'm surprised he didn't jump out of his skin. To have that much poise and control when entering such an electrified environment says a ton about his temperament. I'll forgive him his "passagey" trot.

You took the words right out of my fingers...

[slc2]

Each group has an agenda for arguing dressage came from miliitary or the carousels.

The fact that it came from the military makes it seem noble, useful and practical. The fact that it came from the artistic carousels makes it seem like it wasn't connected with violence and war. It makes it seem as if dressage was just perfected by masters who had as their sole desire to create an art form, away from the pressures of society, without any deadline or purpose other than just to be an art form, just to create beauty. Each position is vehemently argued.

It's most likely that dressage didn't come from either one exclusively, and it probably in its modern form bears very little resemblance either to the carousels OR military riding.

I have talked with quite a few scholars and historians over the years on this subject, and most military historians find it hysterical that anyone did anything remotely 'artistic' in battle. Especially charging on heavy armored horses in the heavy cavalry period. The idea is absurd.

War, in general, wasn't a time for anything but the crudest horsemanship. Several famous groups even charged into battle with the bits slipped from the horse's mouths, so that a rider couldn't turn tail at the last minute. Riding in battle is rough, dangerous and hard.

It's a romantic fantasy we love to perpetuate in modern times, that riding in battle involves some sort of finesse or ability to exert fine control over a charging beast in a noise filled atmosphere full of gunfire. In fact, people charged along at a dead gallop and shot at eachother, and it was very hard on man and beast alike. Read some civil war journals to discuss the injuries horses received, from their own saddles, bits and spurs, in many cases, as the riders ripped around in the saddle trying to fight.

The whole idea is that war and battle is somehow glamorous and involves some sort of refined skill is something we are in love with. It was certainly skillful how riders shot at each other, or whacked eachother with swords, without cutting their reins or their own arms off, but that's about the end of the refined skill.

In general, I would say that most of the dressage work we do has actually very little history behind it for its exact present form. I'm sure much has been borrowed from the past in bits and pieces, but the combination of extended gaits, collected gaits, piaffe, passage, pirouette, done in the form they are done today, with no coercive equipment (check out the equipment described in pluvinel's enlightened age in his book, if you don't believe it), with light agile blood horses, and with a rounded back and contact with the bit, is unique in history.

[kkj]

OK Dalfan and Eq Trainer I think we actually agree! I too think he is super impressive and has a great disposition. My horse and 3 would have done airs above ground etc coming into an arena environment like that. The horse is super poised for his age. My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse. You hold him back, he is a little excited and bingo he has the inclination to passage, not to do a 180 and exit the ring or to rear or bolt or stop and balk but to slip into the beginning of a great passage. His trot in the beginning looks passagey.

I still think the rider is riding him on too tight a rein but maybe it is just for the show. Maybe the horse is best ridden that way in such an electric environment. Maybe he is ridden much differently at home. I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck. Maybe this is how he works when he is in more familar surroundings.

[Mozart]

OK Dalfan and Eq Trainer I think we actually agree! I too think he is super impressive and has a great disposition. My horse and 3 would have done airs above ground etc coming into an arena environment like that. The horse is super poised for his age. My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse. You hold him back, he is a little excited and bingo he has the inclination to passage, not to do a 180 and exit the ring or to rear or bolt or stop and balk but to slip into the beginning of a great passage. His trot in the beginning looks passagey.

I still think the rider is riding him on too tight a rein but maybe it is just for the show. Maybe the horse is best ridden that way in such an electric environment. Maybe he is ridden much differently at home. I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck.
Maybe this is how he works when he is in more familar surroundings.

OMG! I must rub my eyes in amazement (isn't there an icon for that??) Am I seeing CONSENSUS on the dressage forum!!!

Ok quick you guys....start working on the problems in the Middle East!:lol:

[SillyHorse]

slc says it is not so, therefore it is not so. What more proof could you possibly need? :lol:

[canyonoak]

Dressage began as a way to train the horse. by Canyonoak <VBG>


The horse was originally for eating.

Then, the horse was for packing goods and then--with technology--dragging loads.

Finally, someone got the idea to sit on a horse.

This required training methodology.

The horse--the vehicle of its time--was used for war; hence, the cavalry. And there was training for this, mostly dressage de campagne--training the horse for use OUTSIDE, in the country.

For pleasure and entertainment, some horses were trained beyond campagne dressage, for what we now call haute ecole.

Cavalry officers and others responsible for training horses wanted to show off what they could do: it is human to want to have competitions and decide who is best.

And it is out of this broth that modern dressage was born, became part of the Olympics, allowed the various schools (jerez, SRS, Cadre Noir) to stay alive. And for breeders to keep going, until the produce the modern athlete-- Quaterback. (just to swing around again to the thread subject)

thank you.

(sits down in seat again)

[egontoast]

I have talked with quite a few scholars and historians over the years on this subject

hehe:yes:

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated(WAY more educated than any of you peeps or your friends) Giant Fantastic Experts who shared with me the true origins of dressage but I am sworn to secrecy.

[Sandy M]

To a certain extent, certainly, one would want an OBEDIENT horse in war - a horse that would go forward, when asked, regardless of gunfire, etc. Training is training is training. However, the idea that the haute ecole of dressage is based on battlefield maneuvers is, as slc says (OMIGOD, I am agreeing with slc) ridiculous. {Ah, yes, there is an enemy, collect, collect, now.... capriole and kick him!! Now rear up on your hind legs and hop forward, striking at the foe! No, I don't think so.) Perhaps one might say that MODERN (whatevertheheckthatmaybe) dressage derives MORE from the carousels, plus the 17th and 18th Century officer's desire to show off (they sure wore fancy unis then), etc.

[slc2]

that's a terrible shame, egon, about being sworn to secrecy.

and thanks, silly horse, for that vote of confidence, but i must shake my finger at you, for you know it's not true.

how much the past riding had a part in dressage's modern form is a matter of opinion, and opinion alone, and either side can present convincing information, for or against. what someone's opinion is on any subject depends on the information they have and how they feel about things, and frankly, no one needs to convince anyone of anything here, because everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like.

i would never claim that dressage came solely from carousel riding OR military - i don't agree with either position. as i said, i think the modern dressage borrowed bits and pieces from many sources, and is a unique combination. in a sense, there is commonality between all historical forms of riding and dressage, because if you try hard enough, you can find some similarity.

karl mikolka, on the other hand, insists military had nothing to do with the school riding or the school jumps. i don't agree with him entirely, but the point of view is described above (why school airs are impractical in battle, his main point in one paper he wrote), and he is a far more informed scholar than me or any of us.

a good source of information is Gimbutas' writings, and 'The Role of the Horse in Man's Culture and History' is a more practical, and less romantic, review of archeological and historical information.

[mistyjewell]

Ok, not to be a nag, but can you take the topic of the orgin of dressage to a new thread? If you want more people's opinions on it, post a thread and see what response you have, that may help you then the few people who are stil reading this thread, you might get more answers that way.

On a side note about passagy horses, I used to know a lovely FEI level horse that when he threw a temper tantrum would get "stuck" in passage." He wasn't neary the extravagent mover this horse is, but his evasion was to passage, wonder if that's how he'll be, it comes naturally to him, so when in doubt, passage! lol.

[fiona]

I talk all the time with the people inside my head and they agree you can lead a horse to water but it's pretty impossible to get him inside a tank thus debunking the military/dressage theory once and for all.

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated....... Giant Fantastic Experts
yeah me too.

[Ja Da Dee]

I'm sure the answer to the question "where did dressage originate" is in the same book that answers the age old question "what do the letters stand for".

Find that book, and you will have unlimited power.

[Dalfan]

My point is that he is naturally more prone to passage than the average horse.

You can't know this from the short video of him. But chances are he will develop a lovely P/P.

I would like to see some trot work where he stretches more to the contact, not with his head held down or long and low but just reaching more with his neck.

Watch the video again. He does offer a bit.

[fiona]

Find that book, and you will have unlimited power.

My sources tell me that Egontoast on being told to digest the contents of this worthy tome promptly ate it.

[YoungFilly]

hehe:yes:

I have talked with many many many many Important Highly Credible Excessively Educated(WAY more educated than any of you peeps or your friends) Giant Fantastic Experts who shared with me the true origins of dressage but I am sworn to secrecy.


Gawd, I am crying my eyes out. :lol: :lol: :lol: Some of the stuff that comes out of your mouth....... err keyboard.

[egontoast]

My sources tell me that Egontoast on being told to digest the contents of this worthy tome promptly ate it.

mmmmmmmmmmmm...tommmmme

See, it's like this: many of my ...er.. important...er...friends have applicable anecdotes to support all of my eccentric views. I just need to check my e-files.

Fiona , I sense some derision in your posts and I would like to remind you that I and my Important Friends, are very...um...IMPORTANT!

[SGray]

The same way they figured out that Jesus was a fair-skinned man with light-brown shoulder length hair and a neatly trimmed beard.


:) :D :lol: :winkgrin: :D :lol:

[fiona]

Fiona , I sense some derision in your posts

no escaping that rapier perception of yours is there? Is that Important or Impotent?

[fiona]

neatly trimmed beard.

never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?

[Mozart]

never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?

The closest religious connection to dressage that I can recall is Steffen Peters at the WEGS who under his breath screamed OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD as he halted at X and did his last salute

[Sandy M]

never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?

ROFLOL. Many years ago rode with a very nice older gentleman who had taken up riding and dressage at age 60. He had a full grey beard (neatly trimmed!). At age 63 he was showing an "okay" 2nd level. (I guess he figured he'd go for it while he could. Got scores in the 56% to 61% range). Really nice guy. And, his horse's name..... wait for it..... was..... MOSES.* ROFLOL












*Actually an Appendix QH named "Ain't No Mo," but he showed it as "Moses."

[egontoast]

Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards?

One of my important upper level dressage friends told me that slc sports a beard.:D

[mp]

Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards?

I saw some women with mustaches at the USDF convention, but they didn't have beards. May not have been riders anyway. ;)

The closest religious connection to dressage that I can recall is Steffen Peters at the WEGS who under his breath screamed OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD as he halted at X and did his last salute

Yes ... YES YESSSSS!!!!! :lol:

[Pony Fixer]

I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....

(just ask a very good lameness vet who treats all the soft tissue and hock issues on these horses before they are 6)


This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.

[fiona]

that's all very well but do you have or know of anyone riding dressage whilst sporting a beard?

I believe technically speaking slc's (alleged) beard doesn't count as it's daliesque as opposed to classical and fake being made wholly of grass.

[mistyjewell]

OMG, you guys are too funny...

Speaking of beards... I amost spit my coffee out, since i was joking amongst friends about/to my stright dressage riding male friend, saying that he had yet to prove he was stright. And he said what about all my girlfriends? And my other friend said they were just beards (cover ups)!!! LOL, and that's all I can think of reading those posts!

[egontoast]

santa' s sporting a goatee this yr and Mrs santa has one under each arm

but we digress!

PS I think the dearly departed Sabine's SO rides dressage with a hairy face,

[kkj]

I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....



This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.

Ponyfixer, I don't think the way you started your horse at 2 is likely to hurt him- walk, trot three times a week and then turned out in a field. That seems very reasonable to me. If the horse is ready for it at that age and the person is responsible enough not to push it then fine.

I am not a vet but I will assert that good sane vets can disagree on this. A vet at UC Davis told me that from autopsys done, 70% or better of horses off the track have some chronic back issues. Riding them like that at 2 very often has consequences although the average OTTB owner may not realize the horse is compromised in some way. I have been around a little and it seems 1/2 the people with lame horses either don't know or don't care but regardless keep riding them anyway.



Moreover, I do not assert if you ride your horse at 3, it will need hock injections at 6. However, if you sit on your horse at 3 and make it go in a tight frame or push it to be ready for the 4 year old FEI tests, it may very well. Dressage is hard on the horses hind end. I believe hind suspensories are the most common dressage injury. This is not the case with jumping or eventing or racing or western pleasure. Also the stifles and back are late to develop. They are not strong at 3. Regardless of how great the conformation is, if the muscles are not there yet the joints can take the brunt of it. There may not be actually studies to back it up, but that does not make it untrue. I personally know several dressage horses with synovitis at 4 or 5 and hock injections at 5 or 6. I spent a lot of years in the hunter jumper world and those horses did not get hock injections until later. Bottom line serious dressage is harder on the hind end than cantering around on the forehand and jumping a few jumps.

I do agree that exercise is good for young horses. My horse grew up in a large field and got plenty of exercise. She was started at 3. She has clean xrays and is sound. Exercising the young horses, I am sure that would make them stronger. However, we are not talking about riding them in a tight frame, sitting on them and pushing them to be ready for showing at 3.

[mademoiselle]

KKJ,

What you don't realize is that if you own a warmblood, it's likely that its sire, great sire, great, great sire was sat on in a tight frame at 3 !!!!
The way, the inspections are run, has been like that for decades and it doesn't mean that all horses are lame when they are older.

One more time, I will repeat THIS IS A SHOW, THEY DON'T RIDE THIS HORSE LIKE THIS ON EVERYDAY BASIS.

This is not a schooling video, this is just a stallion inspection.

That would be like watching the Rolex on TV and saying, They shouldn't jump their horses over cross country courses like this everyday because it's bad for their joints and for them ... No kidding:) .

And about the fight about War and Carroussel roots. Two Simple, you're right. Quaterback is not a good example of horse that would be useful to fight in Iraq, therefore they should stop trying to do dressage with him !

When is the last time, horses were used and trained for war ? Do you really think that Freestyle at the Olympics has anything to do with demonstrating that a horse is suitable for battles ? Because if it's what they are looking for, let me tell you that they failed.

[Gnalli]

I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....



This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.


You, PonyFixer, are my new hero!! I loff you forever and ever.:D :D It ALL depends on the horse first, then the amount of work, the size of rider etc....in other words it takes a true horseman (horsewoman) to know when to start that particular individual. Not one size fits all.

[Auventera Two]

This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.


I would be very interested to get a copy of this study. Can you tell me the group that conducted it, and where I might get copies? Thanks!

[Daydream Believer]

Here is something a bit more scientific for those who advocate that working a horse this age like this is OK. I am almost certain the studies that Pony Fixer is talking about were done on race horses and discussed building bone density and did not really focus on the latest part of the horse to mature...their spine and backs....and was not really about sport horses in general or horses asked to work like dressage horses are.

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

[NoDQhere]

Wow, I was gone to the USDF Convention for a few days and this thread has really grown! So I have patiently read through them all and now feel compelled to add my $.02 worth :yes:

I'm very surprised that so many people are so convinced that riding this young stallion "this way" is going to ruin him. This is a "dressage" horse from several generations of "dressage" horses. He is bred to move this way. He is built to move this way easily. He is bred for "rideability". He has not needed a ton of training to look like this. HE IS DOING WHAT COMES NATURALLY FOR HIM.

If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.

Quaterman travels wide behind because he has so much movement. Almost any young horse with a lot of up and forward movement is going to travel wide behind, UNTIL they develop more strength and balance. The traveling wide behind actually proves that Quaterman HASN'T had a lot of training.
It seems like many "Americans" have taken the "slow" approach to the other extreme. Ride them low and on the forehand for 5 or 6 years then wonder why the horse struggles with self carriage and collection.

As I said in my earlier post, this is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for. It is NOT a crime to bring young horses along, within their abilities, quickly. The FEI Young Horse Tests are very appropiate for the age groups, for the HORSES THAT THESE TESTS WERE DEVELOPED FOR!

[nhwr]

Horses, like humans, develop bone density and soft tissue condition by weight bearing exercise. Horses need weight bearing work and concussion for proper muscular and skeletal development. That being said, the studies that I believe you guys are referring to was done to determine the benefits of turn out, not work under saddle. If I recall correctly, the conclusions weren't surprising. Some exercise ie turn out aka weight bearing working is necessary for proper development, too much is harmful. The studies didn't address work under saddle.

I have read all the Deb Bennett stuff about horses being mature at 6 and I don't disagree with that. But I do disagree that if you don't wait to ride until the horse is completely mature (all growth plates are closed) you are jepordizing its health. This is the same as saying children should be involved in competitive sports until they are in their late teens or early 20s. With horses, as with children, moderate exercise with appropriate supervision can be a good thing.

In the video, Quaterback looks like a very talented teenage athlete. Not perfect, not mature but obviously into his game. I don't see him working particularly hard anywhere. And given his obvious talent, it doesn't look like anything inappropriate is being asked him.

[cosmos mom]

I would be very interested to get a copy of this study. Can you tell me the group that conducted it, and where I might get copies? Thanks!


If you do a Medline search you can find it- actually, I believe there are several journal articles on this as I pointed out earlier.

[slc2]

there have been studies of workouts increasing bone density, as well as studies of concussive sessions increasing bone density.

[Horsecrazy27]

Wow, I was gone to the USDF Convention for a few days and this thread has really grown! So I have patiently read through them all and now feel compelled to add my $.02 worth :yes:

I'm very surprised that so many people are so convinced that riding this young stallion "this way" is going to ruin him. This is a "dressage" horse from several generations of "dressage" horses. He is bred to move this way. He is built to move this way easily. He is bred for "rideability". He has not needed a ton of training to look like this. HE IS DOING WHAT COMES NATURALLY FOR HIM.

If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.

Quaterman travels wide behind because he has so much movement. Almost any young horse with a lot of up and forward movement is going to travel wide behind, UNTIL they develop more strength and balance. The traveling wide behind actually proves that Quaterman HASN'T had a lot of training.
It seems like many "Americans" have taken the "slow" approach to the other extreme. Ride them low and on the forehand for 5 or 6 years then wonder why the horse struggles with self carriage and collection.

As I said in my earlier post, this is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for. It is NOT a crime to bring young horses along, within their abilities, quickly. The FEI Young Horse Tests are very appropiate for the age groups, for the HORSES THAT THESE TESTS WERE DEVELOPED FOR!

I must agree with parts of this. My stallion, we started the year of his 3rd birthday....he was not "officially" 3 for 4 more months, but you would never know that he was so green!! He had a severe injury to his back/spine when he was 18 months old----so, excersize was important as he was growing to keep him remotely sound and comfortable. I handled him well, but lightly and smartly the year of his 2nd birthday. I made sure he was educated to the saddle, to the sir single and side riens. Taught him lots of stretching movements from the ground, he went on lots lots lots of "pony" rides (being led off another horse on the trail.) Handled daily and when it came to riding him, it was just like it was just another day---except now I'm sitting on him. I also had my trainer with me when I backed him on his 3rd year--because I wanted to be the first on him. He was outstanding---he was so light in the bridle and yet, super collected!! At this time, I had NEVER EVER got on a horse that wanted to be round by just touching the riens! He was so light on my leg, very forward and if someone would of video taped our first ride----it would of looked like he was undersaddle around 2-3 months--except with a rider who was BEAMING--all smiles!! After a week--- I was "playing" with him. (with out my trainers supervision---and against better judgement) but, he had everything inside him--- (movements)--- I just had to ask!!! He always was naturally rythmic, forward, round and just tried ANYTHING you asked. Including half passes, (all gaits), extentions, more collection-----He had me in tears because I was so amazed and felt he was a true GIFT!!! NOW.....did we push him? NO. He was wanting to be round, forward---it was more like we were guiding him----not training him. For the first year, rides were SHORT--- around 15-20 min and rode him around 3-4 times a week with half the ride on the buckle for such good behavior. His daughter that I ride now---same way, it really makes starting them seem like your cheating. So, with this kind of a horse---which to me this guy looks like that).....it comes naturally---- like a labrador to retrieving.

[Auventera Two]

If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.

So its okay to ride a 3 year old hard if you are riding him in the discipline he was bread for?? Ooooooh-kay.

[nhwr]

So its okay to ride a 3 year old hard if you are riding him in the discipline he was bread for?? Ooooooh-kay.

What you don't get, Two Simple, is that horse isn't being worked hard. For him, this stuff is easy and that is why a lot of us like him :yes:

[NoDQhere]

So its okay to ride a 3 year old hard if you are riding him in the discipline he was bread for?? Ooooooh-kay.

Oh Two Simple, why do you make this sooooo complicated? :confused: Quaterback (not Quarterman, my bad) was BRED (not bread, although he looks delicious) to move like this. It is EASY for him. He is NOT working hard. He is not being ridden hard.

Our 5 year old (he'll turn 6 in Feb.) is learning changes. It is EASY for him. All of the work, up to now has been easy for him so he has come along quickly. BUT, always, we pay a lot of attention to what the horses tell us. If you are a decent horseman, and these Europeans haven't accomplished what they have by not being good horsemen, you let the horse tell you what they are ready for.

[Auventera Two]

O - K

Everybody has their own opinion.:winkgrin:

[YoungFilly]

santa' s sporting a goatee this yr and Mrs santa has one under each arm

but we digress!

PS I think the dearly departed Sabine's SO rides dressage with a hairy face,

Sabine got banned? Bummer!!! :(

[egontoast]

Yeah, bummer, considering who else is allowed to blather on in supreme ignorance.

[Pony Fixer]

I would be very interested to get a copy of this study. Can you tell me the group that conducted it, and where I might get copies? Thanks!

You could probably find it yourself faster on medline. It will take me years to find that journal. It was race horses, specifically dealing with a question about bucked shins, but the results were that ligament and bone density and thickness were increased in horses in work versus those stalled. Granted, there was no "turnout" group, since racing TBs are rarely housed that way. I believe it was a UPenn study, and I heard a talk referring to it (and then pulled the copy) back in 1996, so the date is prior to that.

[Pony Fixer]

Here is something a bit more scientific for those who advocate that working a horse this age like this is OK. I am almost certain the studies that Pony Fixer is talking about were done on race horses and discussed building bone density and did not really focus on the latest part of the horse to mature...their spine and backs....and was not really about sport horses in general or horses asked to work like dressage horses are.

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

I don't disagree with all of what this article says. However, if it ain't referrenced and in a peer-reviewed journal, it ain't a "study" (not that you said it was). There is no way, from that article, to find from where all her "evidence" stems.

[Pony Fixer]

TS--those studies largely don't exist for several reasons. One, money. Who wants to study that and pay for it--food companies? Fencing or stabling companies? Second, controls. You can't control for how much exercise a pastured horse gets. Mine, he can almost stay fit outside. His buddy is a pasture potato. Third, the study was terminal. They euthanized all the horses to cut up the legs and measure the bone/ligament size, density, etc.

My point is not that horses SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be backed at a certain age. It's just that, like most of life, it is highly variable and specific to the case at hand. BUT, because you decide to back a particular horse at a particular age for a particular reason does not inherently cause them to have issues down the road. Actually, I should not have said inherently. ;-p Genetics probably plays a large role in long term soundness, more so than when first backed. A summit synopsis was just published this week regarding making racing safer for TBs. Seems we have more horses than 50 years ago, the same # of starts, so therefore each horse is racing less. However, breakdowns are occurring at a higher rate. Two factors greatly considered--genetics (breeding for faster, not sounder) and toe grabs (hopefully greater than 4 mm soon to be banned).

[Dalfan]

There was an article in Equus not too long ago (3-6 months) about this issue.