Do the hounds kill the fox? [Archive]

AC & Ty

Nov. 28, 2006, 01:25 PM

First, you may want to edit the title of your post to read "hounds" versus "dogs"...that's just one of those things foxhunters hate to hear....not trying to be snarky...really...

Second...Even very good hunts may only get ONE fox a year....ONE FOX. AND...99.9% of the time, the fox is either old, sick, or injured. A healthy fox will rarely be caught unless it makes a mistake. But yes, if they catch up, the hounds do kill the fox, and like another poster said, it is instantaneous.

I have hunted very lightly for almost 15 years or so...(and I mean anywhere from 1 to 6/7 hunts per season)...and I have never seen them catch one. I have however, seen foxes leisurely loping through fields and trotting down fence lines, and even perching on a coop and having a seat for a moment. Big, beautiful, TOTALLY UNFAZED, healthy foxes. They could care less, really. :winkgrin: It's very amusing to see Mr. Fox sitting there enjoying the scenery while he listens to the hounds frantically trying to find him...:lol:

Auventera Two

Nov. 28, 2006, 01:36 PM

First, you may want to edit the title of your post to read "hounds" versus "dogs"...that's just one of those things foxhunters hate to hear....not trying to be snarky...really...

One step ahead of ya - did it already. :) And like I said, I have a Hound myself and always call him a Hound, and not a dog. Here's his picture from Thanksgiving morning. That's me and my mare and Ezekiel the hound, doing what he does best! *laugh*

http://auventera.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=album03&id=M_Jump_4

Didn't meant to offend anyone, honest.

kellyb

Nov. 28, 2006, 01:46 PM

Yeah, like AC said if the fox does get caught there's a good chance he's sick or injured already...probably a quick death is better for him than a slow painful natural one.

Auventera Two

Nov. 28, 2006, 01:50 PM

Yep, I'd probably tend to agree with that! My hound is fast and smart but he is always outrun by everything he tries to chase. (rabbits, mice, fox) :lol:

JBnC

Nov. 28, 2006, 02:32 PM

CerCertainly not trying to stir the pot, but I'd like some sincerity from Fox Hunters. I have been to a few as an observer, and the one I went to vehemently denied the so-called blooding and said that they only killed if the hounds got a hold of the fox.

I can't help but wonder if they did that in front of visitors, but there was a different story inside the circle.

Just recently I was talking to an acquaintance who grew up hunting. Her father takes care of the hounds and horses for a club in the S.E. and she was talking about blooding like it happened all the time. I was shocked.

So yes, that left me wondering--wondering if this ritual does occur more in the US than clubs allow the public to believe so that they can avoid issues with animal rights organizations and perhaps the local human society.

Look, I am a leather wearing meat eater, so I’m not throwing any stones, but IF (and I stress if here,-- if --as in the theoretical sense) Clubs are blooding, I don’t think they should lie about it to make themselves look good.

Tantivy1

Nov. 28, 2006, 02:38 PM

CityDog;

It is customary to chase Monsieur Charles, but we are on his turf, not ours, and accordingly, it is the rarest exception when he does not handily best us.

I have personally seen a fox safely sitting and watching hounds hot on his scent after he deliberately laid a torturous line and slipped away.

I think you could safely say, ahem, it is customary that we view him...and lose him!

SteeleRdr

Nov. 28, 2006, 03:03 PM

JBnC- I don't think the hunts are just saying that to "save face." It is a VERY uncommon occurence in the US these days to have a person be blooded. And like has been said, usually a fox is only killed if it is old, injured, sick, or makes a mistake (ie, fox suicide as I like to call it). The is a reason for the saying "sly as a fox."

JBnC

Nov. 28, 2006, 03:24 PM

redponyrider

Nov. 28, 2006, 03:58 PM

the general public is sure quick to get out the traps and the poison and call in the sharp-shooters around here when coyotes or fox or any other animal starts making a nuisance of itself, or just gets sighted near their houses. Kind of hypocritical to get upset about fox hunters occasionally catching a fox.

Hunter's Rest

Nov. 28, 2006, 05:02 PM

And furthermore, every single kid that deer hunts, or turkey or squirrel or dove or duck or whatever -- usually boys, granted, is indeed blooded. By dad or uncle or cool older brother or friend, from their first kill. It is an HONOR to be blooded. It is like getting ashes on Ash Wednesday. One honors the life of the animal, honors nature, honors mother earth and all the bounty in it. I am proud of having been blooded and having become part of the tribe. Any person with a cowpox shot scar, wearing leather, tucking into a hot dog and a factory farmed egg ought to look at little closer at the grotesque life and times of industrial farming and the gruesome conditions those animals live and die in to serve us and be a bit less edgy about the rare kill in the hunt field.
I have hunted a LOT. I'm 40. Started at age 5. I hunt 3-5 days per week, August-April. That's 1000s of hunts. I've been on exactly FOUR hunts where they killed. 4. Not often.
But hunts certainly do not make you be blooded. One of those 4 times was this season. A few people humbly toddled up to the master to be blooded - a few were kids, a few adults. They were rapt, absolutely magical to be part of that fraternity. A couple others who had never been blooded hung back and did not take part. One said, later, they were sorry not to have done it.

Hunter's Rest

Nov. 28, 2006, 05:03 PM

P.S. Melvin Poe, one of the nation's best known and most beloved professional huntsman of all time, and a lifelong foxhunter, deer hunter, birds, squirrels, you name it -- calls them 'dogs.'

Tantivy1

Nov. 28, 2006, 05:13 PM

Redponyrider wrote:

"the general public is sure quick to get out the traps and the poison and call in the sharp-shooters around here when coyotes or fox starts making a nuisance of itself, or just gets sighted near their houses. Kind of hypocritical to get upset about fox hunters occasionally catching a fox."

THANK-YOU!

xeroxchick

Nov. 28, 2006, 06:05 PM

What fox? Down here there are mostly coyotes. If I ever chase a red fox again I think I'll kiss him on the snout.

Thisk "chasing." Fox chasing.

promlightshine

Nov. 28, 2006, 09:40 PM

For those who only drag hunt you aren't hunting. I'll likely be crucified for this but here me out. I have had the privilage of riding with some nice folks on drag hunts up in the Northeast. As a person who does theater I can easily dress the part, play the game and immerse myself into a perceived reality/role.

It's fast, furious and you ride to your best ability. Its a rush but it's not hunting . On a recent hunt the "drag hounds" got into some cover. After 2 hours of watching them run and the whips practically on masters horse to keep them in check I was waiting with baited breath for them to flush something out. The whips put a stop to that yelling and cracking whips to get them back on "scent".

In the northeast we have coyote working their way into the neighborhoods and in many areas there are stories of stock/domestic animals being killed. If we harrass them a bit and keep them leary they remain where they should be; in the shadows and feral.

I've never seen a kill nor do I wish to. It's also possible a pack of hounds on a drag hunt could find real scent and get prey . So to say that you only drag hunt means that you've not hunted long enough. Your hounds will at some point go after live prey and the show will stop and the reality of what you do will be in your face.

Yes, I've ridden many hunts where there is little "action" . But I've also seen incredible action on the coyotes part. .. one goes into deep cover, another comes out. One came out into the opening and ran down a drainage ditch to thwart the hounds. It's just amazing and frankly quite scarey ... what smart incredible creatures they are.

Foxhunt4me

Nov. 29, 2006, 12:20 PM

http://www.mfha.org/code.htm

(f.) The tradition of blooding originated in ancient times as a historic ritual to honor the hunted animal. It is the position of the MFHA that this practice not be encouraged, as it is too easily misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Our hounds usually catch the fox and invite it to a tea party. The pack is gathered and the fox is the guest of honor. Scones and clotted cream and marmalade are passed with the hot tea and a grand time is had by all.

bovon

Nov. 29, 2006, 02:08 PM

I've sent you a PM:) !

AC & Ty

Nov. 29, 2006, 02:14 PM

Our hounds usually catch the fox and invite it to a tea party. The pack is gathered and the fox is the guest of honor. Scones and clotted cream and marmalade are passed with the hot tea and a grand time is had by all.

Now there is the definition of "tongue in cheek"....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Very funny. :)

citydog

Nov. 29, 2006, 03:23 PM

For those who only drag hunt you aren't hunting.

True. We're what, "scent chasing"? I guess. :)

It's fast, furious and you ride to your best ability.

Which for *me* is the entire appeal.

It's also possible a pack of hounds on a drag hunt could find real scent and get prey . So to say that you only drag hunt means that you've not hunted long enough. Your hounds will at some point go after live prey and the show will stop and the reality of what you do will be in your face.

Actually, it happened recently.

But I've also seen incredible action on the coyotes part. .. one goes into deep cover, another comes out. One came out into the opening and ran down a drainage ditch to thwart the hounds. It's just amazing and frankly quite scarey ... what smart incredible creatures they are.

They are. :yes:

*zips into flame suit*

I eat meat (avoiding anything factory farmed and staying local as much as possible), wear leather, and own sheep. I have no trouble with hunting deer, turkey, etc.). No trouble with killing something to save my own animals.

The reason I wrote that I *think* I'll always stick to drag hunting is because *I* have trouble with the prolonged chasing of the critter. The chase, not the kill. I read with *extreme* interest and open mind the other thread that Badger (who wrote some of the best entries there I've ever seen on a bulletin board ever :)) linked to, and was most intrigued by some of the descriptions of the foxes almost casually loping along, and of the theory that there is some genetic programming that might have a healthy fox indeed view being chased as some sort of tag game. It certainly gave me pause and widened up that grey area of possiblity that not all quarry are necessarily super-stressed, panicked, terrified beasts.

But I'm not sure that *I*, with the way I view animals and my relationship to them and my responsibility to uphold what I think of as important, would ever be comfortable *intentionally* live hunting.

Me. Those are *my* views. I understand they are not shared by all, and yes, I know about foxes indiscriminately killing chickens (who were no doubt panicked, stressed, and terrified), and such, and I understand the Darwinian selection aspects of the ones who get away and the ones who are caught. *I'm* just not comfortable with intentionally potentially stressing a critter (and yes, any worked animal experiences stress, I mean the life-or-death sort of stress) for a few hours fun for myself.

But I will keep reading and listening and learning, and I thank everyone on this board for providing some of the best *discussion* I've seen on the topic anywhere.

onthebit

Nov. 29, 2006, 03:41 PM

Any person with a cowpox shot scar, wearing leather, tucking into a hot dog and a factory farmed egg ought to look at little closer at the grotesque life and times of industrial farming and the gruesome conditions those animals live and die in to serve us and be a bit less edgy about the rare kill in the hunt field.

Well said!!!

La Gringa

Nov. 29, 2006, 10:10 PM

I would much prefer a fox meeting his end to hounds than on the highway. I see so many dead on the road.

Here in VA, the intent is to chase, not to kill. If the fox turns back into the hounds or if they do happen to catch it, it's over very fast.

Foxes do carry rabies. Last year a lady was bitten in MD by a rabid fox correct on the side of a highway correct? I remember a story about this.

I have no problem with it. I believe that every intent is made to let the fox live another day here, and to preserve a healthy population.

promlightshine

Nov. 29, 2006, 10:21 PM

I can't speak for other hunts I can only speak from my own experience. Most of the time the hounds are on a line/scent from an earlier passage. So the 2-3 hour screaming runs can happen but often the scent is picked up and lost a few times with an occassional direct view. Our pack is primarily PMD's with deep rich voices. To me PMD's are the diesels of fox hounds. Not known for racing and speed but known for heart and a true work ethic.

I found I was disappointed on the drag hunts I've attended. I love the sound of hounds so I rode first flight each time. However, what was I waiting for? looking for? After 2 hours it to me was a hunter pace with a team of 50.. :)

The comradery, the fun of riding with people you like is definately part of it. I know there were parts I enjoyed but not enough to join and participate on a regular basis.

Anyway.. you can unzip your fire suit. If you come down our way (cross the state line and take a left at springfield :) do consider joining us. I personally was quite disappointed when I drove 3 hours to a centennial hunt and no one from the north came down. I understand but was still disappointed especially after a lovely day. It would have been nice to reciprocate.

Enjoy your hunts. I hope the hounds enjoy a few live days, it keeps the whips from becoming complacent LOL!! :)

armandh

Nov. 30, 2006, 07:14 AM

the first and last kill while I was hunting
a very stupid coyote decided to turn and fight with the hounds
this was over in 2 seconds

it does not mean there will not be a kill, only that it is very rare.
we would much rather give chase another day.

rebecca yount

Nov. 30, 2006, 10:40 AM

re blooding: isn't it kind of dangerous because of the possibility that the fox may be carrying rabies? Even if the chance were very remote, it would be so devastating if the person caught rabies that it seems touching wild animal blood would be very unwise.

vineyridge

Nov. 30, 2006, 10:57 AM

Dang, folks, dogs and cats exist to kill other animals for humans. My premises are kept free of rats by terriers and dalmatians. My cat is blessed because she is a good mouser. I've had my dogs kill armadillos and, lord knows, they try and kill skunks. Rabbits don't stand a chance. I'm always thrilled when my animals exhibit the traits of a good hunter/killer. They are showing that they are still useful animals to a rural dweller.

Sooner that dogs live up to why humans have wanted them around for and have bred for for millennia, than that they turn those instincts on the people they live with.

If a dog catches any wild animal, it will try its damnest to kill it. For that, I am grateful.

Stewie

Nov. 30, 2006, 10:59 AM

I hunted in NC for about seven years or so as a kid, every Saturday (and the occasional weekday when mom would pull me out of elementary school for an appointment with 'Dr. Fox'). I was only present at one kill, and was consequently blooded. (Mom was the first woman at a kill during the week once, and was presented with the tail.). Kills did not happen very often. At all. Galloping full blast thru the woods was the intent, not killing the fox!

Yes, I was a bit disturbed that a fox was actually killed. Everyone assured me the fox was most likely sick, and in my mind, it was the way it would happen in nature, so that made it ok. Animal against animal is natural. Animal against gun, trap or highway is cruel.

Anne FS

Nov. 30, 2006, 11:20 AM

The reason I wrote that I *think* I'll always stick to drag hunting is because *I* have trouble with the prolonged chasing of the critter. The chase, not the kill. ...

At least you're out there! We're all in this together and I think it's great.

It does seem that in the States the fox just pops underground when it's had enough and that's that.

I really appreciate your open-mindedness. That's getting all too rare in all ways today and I just wanted to mention how great it is to see it again!

You wrote: [QUOTE] most intrigued by some of the descriptions of the foxes almost casually loping along, and of the theory that there is some genetic programming that might have a healthy fox indeed view being chased as some sort of tag game. It certainly gave me pause and widened up that grey area of possiblity that not all quarry are necessarily super-stressed, panicked, terrified beasts.[QUOTE]

I've only car followed a couple of times so can't count myself a hunter, nevertheless as for myself live hunting would be the way to go, simply because the thrill is in you go where the fox goes and you never know where that will be. The fox won't always take the best ride - he'll go in rough country, through water, in crazy places straight up or down a mountain, dashing down boulder-strewn slopes, even swimming rivers. It gets pretty wild and wooly and truly only the brave horses and riders can stick it. So I understand how drag and live are two totally different things.

rileyt

Nov. 30, 2006, 12:11 PM

I'm intrigued by this discussion. I have only hunted a handful of times myself, and I was struck by a few things:

1) Foxhunters are most decidedly animal lovers. Part of what attracts people to fox hunting is the opportunity to spend a day with horse and hound. It is CRAAAAZYYYY fun. I've never seen a kill... and I wonder if I ever did, whether it would bother me so much that I wouldn't go anymore. (I too am a leather wearing beef-eater... but I'm also one who can't even cook a lobster because I don't like to be personally involved in any animal's death.... I know that makes me a hypocrite)

2) I think many foxhunters (including myself, although I am hardly a foxhunter) feel a bit of remorse on the rare occasions that a fox is killed. Even if it was old or sickly, they are beautiful animals. So I think U.S. hunt clubs are being honest when they tell the public that kills are very rare.

3) Which brings me to my question. When the U.K. banned hunting several years ago, I was a bit puzzled, because the Brits has always struck me a more "practical" out-doors-ey people the Americans. But, it seems that in Britain, kills were regular occurences.

Can anyone (who has hunted here and in the U.K.) shed some light on the differences in hunting both places, and perhaps explain what the kill-percentage was in the U.K., and why (assuming it was higher) it was higher?

Mostly just curious.

Delphi

Nov. 30, 2006, 01:17 PM

Fox is admired everywhere for its beauty and cunning abilities. Fox in the UK have no natural predators other than man. Fox in the UK do not have rabies, a significant factor controlling populations west of the Atlantic. UK farming practices create ideal habitat for fox. Fox are formidable predators on young and helpless domestic lambs, fowl, and other wildlife. Farm owners need to keep fox populations in balance. Local UK hunts are expected to eliminate problem fox so that farmers do not have to resort to poisons and guns. Using poison has collateral damage. There are wounding issues using guns and the UK government has made using guns very restrictive. Using trained foxhounds is very selective and there is no wounding issue; the fox is either killed or it escapes. Killing several fox with each days effort is appreciated by farmers that host the hunts. The fox population has thrived on this management practice for hundreds of years. My understanding of the Burn's Report has found that guns, poison, and hounds are adverse to the health of each individual fox involved, but could not determine that any particular method left any particular fox less dead.

Anne FS

Nov. 30, 2006, 02:30 PM

When the U.K. banned hunting several years ago, I was a bit puzzled,

The ban had NOTHING to do with saving foxes. Proof:

Only mounted hunting of foxes with hounds was banned.

Poisoning, gassing, and shooting were not banned, and in fact were listed as the now socially acceptable way to kill foxes.

So the ban was against mounted foxhunting ONLY. Spread the word. It's amazing how many people don't know this.

In addition, a study recently came out that since the ban, instead of being killed rapidly, around 50% of the foxes are only wounded if shot, thus dying a prolonged, horrible death. So. You tell me who is cruel?

rileyt

Nov. 30, 2006, 02:38 PM

whoa - I hope I didn't offend with my post.

I didn't mean to imply that British hunters are a bunch of animal-hating pigs.

I knew that only hunting with packs of hounds was banned (correct?)

and I'm not trying to defend the U.K. ban at ALL. I think its a terrible travesty.

I am just trying to understand how hunting worked in the U.K., and how the hunters ended up on the wrong side of a PR war. I would hate for anything like that to happen here, and merely was hoping for some information to analyze:

1) whether there was a substantial difference in the hunting culture, if so why...

2) if no difference, how the British hunters got so shafted while we still get to hunt.

It sounds like, Anne, that for some very legitimate reasons, the hunting "culture" in the U.K. was more closely tied to the "kill", whereas in the U.S., it is more tied to the chase. Do you think that's a fair statement?

Eventer13

Nov. 30, 2006, 03:09 PM

I think--don't know, I've never even hunted before (but would *love* to)--that in the UK some hunts would send terriers down after the fox had gone to ground. So that might have accounted for some increase in numbers compared to the US.

Delphi

Nov. 30, 2006, 04:09 PM

The emphasis in the UK has always been on good hound breeding, training and good hound work. A kill is merely a courtesy to the landowner. There are many US landowners who want that courtesy extended to coyote.

Anne FS

Nov. 30, 2006, 04:14 PM

??? I didn't take offense, rileyt, not at all. I think that yes, in England, it is more true hunting and foxes are more often caught and killed. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with that. It's "hunting," after all, and that's what that means.

In the States, foxes aren't the predation problem there are in England so we don't care to kill them. In England, if the hounds don't kill them, they'll be killed nevertheless - they'll be poisoned, gassed, and/or shot and wounded. Much, much more horrible deaths than from hounds.

Hunters ended up on the wrong side of a PR war, indeed. It's like in the States where over the past several years Republicans have been painted in a VERY narrow minded way, as though no Republican would ever be pro-choice, and Democrats are painted in a VERY narrow way, as though no Democrat would ever own a gun. Ridiculous on both counts. But in England it became very much a city vs. country, toffs vs. ordinary folk debate, which was ridiculous, since foxhunters come from all walks of life and all economic levels. But the animal rights movement very effectively used horse = rich = cruel = not like you & me with great success.

Another thing: England has been much better at controlling suburban sprawl than the U.S. This is good because there's city and farm, not like here where we swallow up our entire country in suburbia, which is neither. This is bad because now in England you have 90% of the people city and 10% country, and the 90% city are totally clueless when it comes to country life and the reality of life and nature.

I read on a msg. board awhile ago about these farm people in England who would bring schoolkids to their farm to show them where things really came from and she told how the kids were horrified and disgusted when they saw the cows standing about in spring mud and swore they'd never drink milk again. These kids were so alienated that when they actually saw the animals it all seemed so base and dirty to them, not clean and antiseptic like the supermarket. I think this happened to mounted foxhunting: everyone could latch onto the picture of horse, hound, and fox, but could never really relate, because they never saw, the hoses pumping gas into dens, or never saw traps, or never saw wounded, gangrenous foxes, or foxes suffering from poison. But images of (rich) people on horses galloping about? THAT they saw. And the fluffy, cutesy-wootsy foxes must be saved! Of course as foxes began moving into people's backyards looking for food, that freaked them out and they didn't like it one bit.

A perfect example of this mindset is the late Linda McCartney. She gave a lot of money to a wildlife rehab place for raptor rehab. Sang it's (and her own) praises about this worthy cause. Eventually someone pointed out to her that her money went to buy mice to feed the raptors. Quelle horror!!! This must be stopped. This idiot actually tried to get the wildlife people to feed the raptors a vegetarian diet, since her money simply could not be used for such an evil purpose as supply meat to hawks, eagles, and owls. The wildlife people pointed out to Ms. McCartney that her idea would not work; the raptors NEEDED to eat meat. In the end she arranged to have her money go to provide other things like housing or other needs but made sure none ever went to purchase the poor mousies. Just the fact that she tried to get the raptors on vegetarian diets said it all: "it's not about the animals, it's about ME." Same thing with animal rightists everywhere: it's never about the animals, it's about THEM. Example: running a dragline along railroad tracks in the hopes hounds will be killed by a train. That's caring about animals? Don't be fooled.

citydog

Nov. 30, 2006, 04:30 PM

Very good points, Anne FS. :yes:

Badger

Nov. 30, 2006, 05:28 PM

Good post, Anne.

In answer to the original quesion "Do the hounds kill the fox/coyote" the answer is yes, if the pack catches it, they will kill it. But as in so many things, the little word "if" covers a whole lot of territory.

In the U.S., if the quarry goes to ground, it is not dug out, terriers are not sent after it, it is given "best" and hunters hope to encounter it another day. In the U.K. (I have not hunted there, so this is second hand), the landowner expects the hunt to perform pest control service and kill the fox. So earths are stopped (to keep the fox from going to ground) and terriermen are used to dig out the quarry and dispatch it if it does go to ground somewhere.

In the U.S., the hunt usually ends when the hounds lose the scent, or the quarry goes to ground, or runs out of country. When the quarry runs past a fence line or across the road where we no longer have permission to hunt, hounds are stopped and the huntsman takes them away to look for another line somewhere.

I have twice in the more than fifteen years I've been hunting seen an individual hound catch up with the quarry. Once a red fox, once a gray. On the first occasion, it was a young hound and a young fox, and they literally played together like two pups meeting in the park. They frisked and rolled and tail-wagged and bowed and tumbled together until some older hounds headed over towards them and the fox exited stage left and went quickly to ground, completely unharmed. The second time, it was a gray fox and a seasoned hound who had stayed the line when the rest of the pack missed a turn. So Famous was out in front by a good lead, and the gray fox had stopped on the trail to watch the festivities. Famous caught up to the gray, the stood there and looked at each other, Famous took a step forward, they sniffed noses, and they just looked at each other until the pack found the line and caught up...about 90 seconds later. And then the fox thought maybe this was a fine time to boogie and off he ran, and Famous and his packmates chased him and the fox darted into a thick cover, hounds lost, and the fieldmaster saw a gray up in a nearby tree. So IME the quarry needs to be caught by the pack to be killed, and, frankly, that is quite rare. I personally have only seen hounds catch up to quarry two other times in all the years I've hunted with various packs: both times the pack killed the coyote, one was very mangy and sick, the other was healthy and either very stupid or very unlucky.

Here is a chart on animal speed. http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004737.html Note that the coyote is faster even then the grayhound and whippet and certainly faster than foxhounds. Plus, the coyote has tremendous stamina and can maintain speed for a long time, as opposed to a sprinting animal like a quarter horse who has a quick afterburner but not a long-distance burn.

Interestingly, google just popped up this webpage for me http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com/predator.htm, showing what's done by people who buy furbearers licenses and go out yearround to kill coyotes with rifles. They use prey calls to coax the coyotes into range and shoot them. They quote stats that the calls bring in a coyote 1/10th or 1/3rd of the time, depending on where they are hunting. And then the shooter fires. This is a very different kind of hunting than mounted foxhunting, to say the least. We don't lure them in, we go out into their environment and using only the noses of hounds we try to find where they have been and hope to catch up and get a view. The coyote are out there in number and being hunted year round by rifle hunters and also being trapped—neither method insures the all-or-nothing outcome that a pack does. The shooter can wound and leave the animal to slow death. The trapper can maim and leads to a very slow death. The hounds either kill very quickly or (much, much, much more commonly) the quarry gets away completely untouched.

MuleLady

Nov. 30, 2006, 05:40 PM

DELIGHTFUL post, Badger. How lucky you are to have witnessed those two encounters, especially the one of the youngsters. That had to have been priceless.

EasterEgg

Dec. 1, 2006, 05:28 AM

Wow, some really great posts here - Delphi, I loved the way that you expalined the UK situation so succinctly :yes:

whoa - I hope I didn't offend with my post.

I didn't mean to imply that British hunters are a bunch of animal-hating pigs.

I knew that only hunting with packs of hounds was banned (correct?)

Well, sort of, rileyt... What is now illegal is to purposefully allow hounds to hunt and kill a fox. Legally, you can use 2 hounds to flush the fox to a gun. As Delphi said, the fox ends up no less dead and I fail to see how this method causes the animal less stress (which is what the Burns report used as the basis of comparison - the relative stress levels suffered by the animal leading up to the kill. The report did concede that fox populations needed to be controlled, which upset a lot of the AR crowd).

What most people here (both pro-hunt and many regular 'no strong feelings either way') object to is the ridiculous nature of the law itself. So it is not illegal to ride out with hounds as long as they are following a pre-laid fake scent trail, but then neither is it technically 'illegal' for hounds to kill a fox 'accidentally.' The law means that anyone bringing a case to court would have to prove that the huntsman actively encouraged hounds to deviate from the pre-laid trail or that he did not actively attempt to call hounds off a scent if he realised that they were hunting live quarry. The law as it stands is impossible to regulate properly, and has unfortunately lead to instances where hunt sabs (or 'monitors' as they now like to be known) desperate to try and get someone prosecuted will try to destroy the artificial trail in an attempt to get hounds hunting live quarry - animal lovers concened with saving Charlie's life? I think not.

It sounds like, Anne, that for some very legitimate reasons, the hunting "culture" in the U.K. was more closely tied to the "kill", whereas in the U.S., it is more tied to the chase. Do you think that's a fair statement?

Again, kind of. When I first started hunting (aged 14) it was explained to me thus:

It is the huntsman's job to locate and dispatch the quarry, and the hunt servants job to assist him in doing this. This is why we have been invited to ride on this land.

As a member of the field, it is your job not to interfere in the hunting itself. Enjoy the ride and the countryside, be respectful, and follow instructions at all times. If you wish to learn more about the business of hunting, ask questions of those who are knowledgeable.

I have never actually witnessed a kill, either with my local harrier pack or with the foxhound pack that I have been lucky enough to ride with. I've always been aware that they happen, and I'm not uncomfortable with it. What I have seen an awful lot of (with the harrier pack) is hares sitting down for a breather mid chase (much easier to see this with hares as they tend to run in circles), wait for hounds to catch up, then set off again leaving hounds for dust! :lol: I also go shooting a lot in the winter, and regularly have to dispatch birds wounded by the guns. I know which method of hunting I think is better in terms of animal welfare.

As Anne said, the ban here is nothing to do with animal welfare - not one single fox or hare is better off as a result. Before Tony Blair was elected in 1997, he basically promised the hardened class warriors of his party that if they helped him to get elected he would push this law through. Blair himself never actually turned up to ANY of the parliamentary debates or votes on the matter (because, y'know, he's such a 'man of the people' and doesn't want to upset anyone), and don't forget that the law was pushed through by using the Parliament Act - an Act written into the books during WWII in order to get laws passed quickly in the interests of the nation. The passing of the Hunting Act was, I believe, the first time that the Parliament Act has been invoked since the war. Somehow I can't see that that's what Churchill's government intended it for.

Jumphigh83

Dec. 1, 2006, 08:28 AM

Deer hunters around here kill more coyote than the hounds EVER could! The key word being "kill" ...several are just mortally wounded (by a bad shot) and either suffer and die or live to tell about it after MUCH suffering..I have seen three legged coyotes on my farm as well as in hunt country. I have hunted for a long time and the only two kills I know of were a mangey coyote and an ancient fox (in like 20 years)...we have had "at bays" and many "gone to grounds"...hounds are rewarded with "cookies"....We like the "varmits" to live to chase another day!

Huntertwo

Dec. 1, 2006, 11:13 AM

Flame suit on...lol :)

I've been following this thread and am trying to get into the heads on the Fox hunter crowd. I suppose my love of horses is so, because it extends to all living creatures, whether it be a snake, bird, raccoon etc.

I can't for the life of me figure out how you have so much respect for your horses and so little regard for other creatures. (Foxes and Coyotes) Some seem to imply that the foxes get a *kick* out of being chased. Well, my former B.O. had a nasty G.S. who constantly harassed our family of barn foxes. Sorry, these foxes did NOT look like they were enjoying it. They finally upped and moved their den.
If I put you in an open field with a Lion or Grizzly hot on your tail, would you get a kick out of it? I don't think so. You'd probably be scared sheetless.

As far as the U.K.....I rather be shot and have it over quickly than be chased for hours to the point of terrified exhaustion only to be dug out of my den and shredded.

Livestock being killed by nuisance animals? Your apparently not locking them up properly. I had chickens for many years and didn't lose one to predators. :yes:

Eventer13

Dec. 1, 2006, 11:35 AM

As far as the U.K.....I rather be shot and have it over quickly than be chased for hours to the point of terrified exhaustion only to be dug out of my den and shredded.

Shooting does not always provide a quick kill. Hunters miss. Wandering around with your leg shot off isn't pleasant. I'd say the hounds perform the actual kill faster.

But I guess you're more concerned about the fear a fox has during the chase. I'd be interested to hear the comments. I certainly think that, given a choice, an animal would rather be in pain than in fear. Although, given the stories I've heard, many times the fox doesnt seem too worried.

AC & Ty

Dec. 1, 2006, 11:41 AM

YOU personally have never lost livestock to nuisance animals. I had chickens as a kid, too...and they were never harmed. BUT...it does happen, mostly because HUMANS are invading THEIR territory with construction. Foxes and coyotes are excellent climbers, so unless you have unlimited funds to put up woven wire along with your board fence, AND electrify a line on top, one of those critters can scale it, no problem. And a coyote CAN take down a baby sheep or goat. They may even be able to get a small calf or pony foal...you never know.
In my area, I have seen 3 dead foxes already ON THE ROADS. I saw numerous foxes during the summer. I just moved back into my area after being away for 8 years...and I can't BELIEVE the increase in these animals. I had NEVER seen a coyote in my county before last winter. Now I see them all the time, along with foxes.
I don't think ANYONE implied that the fox "likes" to be chased, we were just trying to explain that most of the time, the animal DOES NOT appear stressed. AT ALL. Cats don't like to be chased by dogs, but you don't see people trying to ban all cat chasing dogs, do you?
Like everyone has said...99% of the time the fox is sick, old, or injured. If left alone, it would slowly starve to death or be in alot of pain or both. Or, if sick, that animal may infect other animals, possibly with rabies. Death by hounds is at the very least, quick.
If we didn't respect the fox and his incredible skill, savvy, and wit...and not to mention his cunning and speed...we could not call ourselves true foxhunters. You either embrace it or you don't...but I would say that unless you have researched or actually participated, there is not a leg to stand on while criticizing.

Side note...this is one of the best threads I've read...very imformative, especially on foxhunting in the UK! :)

Hunter's Rest

Dec. 1, 2006, 12:09 PM

Can someone pass the popcorn? (burp.) (elbows Mulie.)

SteeleRdr

Dec. 1, 2006, 12:54 PM

I'm with you HR! What kind of popcorn you want???

Anne FS

Dec. 1, 2006, 02:52 PM

I'd rather be shot and have it over quickly.

You weren't listening: 50% of shot foxes don't die. They are wounded and crawl off to suffer and die hours, days, weeks later. If hounds catch you, they kill in seconds, not hours, days, weeks. Mos' def, mounted foxhunters love the fox more. They don't tolerate that suffering. They don't gas and poison and shoot.

A "nasty GS" would not be allowed by ANY foxhunter to repeatedly harass a den of foxes. You and your barn owner are more cruel to allow that.

While you love all the little birdies so, many would call you cruel for keeping your chickens locked up. Isn't that cruel to them? And as someone said, YOU haven't had foxes or coyotes prey on your livestock. MANY have.

ss3777

Dec. 1, 2006, 08:37 PM

Huntertwo, you may want to consider changing your user name :)

xeroxchick

Dec. 2, 2006, 07:35 AM

Just a few points in between mouthfuls of popcorn:
1. The MFHA discourages blooding.
2. Red foxes aren't even indigenous to the U.S. (northern Canada, yes) but actually were imported to hunt. Not that it would make any difference to
3. people who hate killing any animals are, as noted previously, mostly just thinking about themselves and their own tender sensibilities because (and where is JS? Can I admire her restraint in this thread?)
4. "nature is red, tooth and nail." Hey, even a virus is alive and I don't hear PETA ranting about saving viruses.

vineyridge

Dec. 3, 2006, 07:56 AM

Speaking of mighty hunters, we've had a critter down at the barn eating the barn cat's food. Last night I had finished feeding and was on my way to the truck when I noticed my terrier mix carrying something large and fluffy in her mouth. It wasn't moving at all. It was a possum. I'm hoping it was dead and that the cat's food will be safe from now on.

I was very happy that my dog had dispatched some more barn vermin, because I wouldn't be able to do it myself. I can rely on her instincts to do what I can't.

La Gringa

Dec. 3, 2006, 09:24 AM

All of these PETA types really get me. I wonder what their reaction is the minute a snake or rabid bat ventures into their homes. I am sure they are shreiking and wanting to be rid of it just like most people.

I think foxes are beautiful but I also think that there is a purpose for hunting. I think that the US foxhunting folks have a good balance of how they practice the sport here.

Foxhunt4me

Dec. 3, 2006, 12:14 PM

The desire to hunt and pursue for sport or food can not really be explained to someone who does not understand or have it. It is a part of the makeup of the human being but not all of us have the desire to do this or the time to act on it. We just want to do it and are fortunate enough to have the time and money to do it and live in a country where we have the right to do it ( part and parcel of the term " Life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness" IMO ).

As a comparison, a man who is gay can not really explain adequately to my understanding why he wants to be with men rather than women. I just don't get it. But, I do realize that something inside him drives him to seek that out as a source of pleasure.

Whether either hunting or homosexuality is wrong, I leave up the individual to make up their mind ( thats called freedom of thought - recent trends in our society seem to be directed at controlling our thoughts whether through the ' political correctness ' movements or the ' hate speech ' prohibitions ) but I sure resent people telling me that somehow after 10,000 + years of man hunting now all of a sudden it is somehow wrong, but other things that have been taboo for thousands of years are now somehow OK because its someone's 'choice'.

Hunting is MY choice and if you try to stop hunters or tell me I am wrong to do it you are in for a fight.

Just my 2 cents and I am not trying to step on anyones toes unless they are anti hunting, and in that case its not your toes that should be stepped on :-) .

Hunter's Rest

Dec. 3, 2006, 12:23 PM

You rock, F4Me. Very eloquent answer.
By the way, the non-hunter types would have been naturally selected right out of the gene pool eons ago were it not for modern society.
Any bets on how long it would take Mother Earth to 'correct' if the power grid goes down and never comes back on?? (I think about this a lot - long trail rides, longer winter evenings without much to do ....)
(munch munch munch. Could someone pass me a diet coke? I'm hoping this discussion will go on and on -- equal parts fun to see terrific, intelligent discussion - a la F4Me et al - and screaming ninnies.)

ideayoda

Dec. 3, 2006, 05:16 PM

I have to say I skipped through fairly quickly. First of a my mom hunted 3-5 days a week for almost 20 years and was only on 2 kills (and one was a planted fox out of its area). And a kill is QUICK, like seconds. A pack kills immediately, swiftly, and leaves it alone. I hunted, but not so often, and was only on one.

Fox/coyotes are smart, that are long ago gone to ground laughing at the slow hounds. And drag hunting is, well, a drag. Too quick runs makes for whacked horses, nothing the same.

Equibrit

Dec. 3, 2006, 05:37 PM

Yes - and I have the mask on my tack room wall!

Jumphigh83

Dec. 3, 2006, 06:07 PM

Excellent FH4Me!! Thanks for being so eloquent (sp?)....Super post....

SailBunny

Dec. 3, 2006, 06:22 PM

Hunting with hounds is such a singularly unique experience that until you have participated in it, you cannot fully understand many of the arguements put forth by foxhunters. It is something almost intangible and ineffable; and we can try and explain it until we are blue in the face. :sadsmile:

If there's one thing I have learned throughout the years of supercilious smiles, and sarcastic remarks; its that there is no quicker way to make yourself look ignorant, than to argue & preach upon a topic of which you have no real life experience.

My remarks are not an attack directed towards anyone in particular, but sometimes it seems as if folks are more interested in nitpicking the oppositions arguement than listening with an open mind.

Edited to say: This is not really a comment about this thread or those participating, but rather a more general statement about how these arguements tend to work, and my frustrations with them.

citydog

Dec. 3, 2006, 06:54 PM

By the way, the non-hunter types would have been naturally selected right out of the gene pool eons ago were it not for modern society.

No, not necessarily. Not if they were really skilled at growing things, or taking care of the young, or making weapons, etc. and being genetically disposed to being a "non-hunter" meant that they were able to be available to do those other things that were also beneficial to the group. :)

Hunter's Rest

Dec. 3, 2006, 07:19 PM

That is assuming agriculture had been discovered (a fairly recent phenomenon) and that steel had been invented (ditto.) I'm talking hunter gatherer. Gatherer means gathering edible fungi, acorns, edible plants. Not going into a rice paddy and netting up your supper. Natural selection has not 'worked' for thousands of years due to captive agriculture. I was speaking of 'before.'
Plus, in portions of the world, there was neither anything to 'gather' nor the possibility of agriculture. Think Inuit, native Scandanavians. Talk about hunter-hunters. Not gatherers at all.

citydog

Dec. 3, 2006, 07:29 PM

Well no, I was talking "before" too (though not exclusively, obviously). Don't need steel to make tools, as a species we didn't start out in Scandinavia, it's *always* been good to have one inclined to help rear the young etc.

I think modernity has certainly made it possible for the true non-hunter/anti-hunter to thrive, but I stand by what I said about some folks being predisposed to being way more into actively hunting than others, and having that been just a dandy plan in our evolutionary history.

daytimedrama

Dec. 3, 2006, 09:49 PM

I went hunting in Kansas, they actually chase Coyotes. Coyotes are relaly really fast, when we went it was the first time they actually got a view in months. The hilltoppers said the coyotes actually stopped and took a break, becasue he was so far ahead.

Badger

Dec. 3, 2006, 10:26 PM

promlightshine

Dec. 3, 2006, 10:51 PM

did anyone see the article written by marc twain? It was a great tale of a hound trying to follow a coyote-in his usual style of wit. It really says it all :)

daytimedrama

Dec. 3, 2006, 11:50 PM

There are three hunts in Kansas and all three chase coyote and fox. Views of coyote are fairly frequent. Sometimes it's the staff viewing and not the field, though. One interesting thing about hunting is that often different riders have very different experiences depending on where they are riding (whipping in, riding with the hilltoppers, riding at the front or back of the field) and their experience at observing and interpreting the hunt. One of the great things about it is that a foxhunter is always learning.

Well I was told they always hunt coyotes, and everyone was quite excited to have a view of the coyote. It was really fun.

I don't think these animals are stupid, and if they really felt threatened by the hunt they know the places that they aren't followed by the hounds, they'd probably just go and live there.

vineyridge

Dec. 4, 2006, 10:50 AM

Coyotes toy with the pack and its followers. They have another gear that they use when they want to finish the hunt--they will put on the jets and be gone.

Was wondering if there had been any research on the "sense of play" in adult wild canines. Domestic dogs certainly have retained it from puppyhood. If wild canines still enjoy playing, it might explain a lot of fox/coyote behavior that hunters observe. Badger's post made me ask the question

Think about the gray fox, for example, who can climb trees to escape. Why would a chased one not end the chase ASAP by going up trees instead of leading hounds on a merry run? Seems to me a confident, healthy young wild canine MIGHT be playing with the hounds.

southern rider

Dec. 4, 2006, 06:50 PM

I know I'm late on this, but ...... there are those who hunt to ride and then there are the true fox hunters, who ride to hunt! I would be the second, used to be the first, but now, I prefer to RIDE TO HUNT!!

Badger

Dec. 4, 2006, 10:11 PM

Daytime: Sounds like you had a great time. I hope you'll be out in the huntfield again soon.

Was wondering if there had been any research on the "sense of play" in adult wild canines. Domestic dogs certainly have retained it from puppyhood. If wild canines still enjoy playing, it might explain a lot of fox/coyote behavior that hunters observe. Badger's post made me ask the question

I touched a bit on the sense of play thing in a reply on the thread I linked to on page one. I'm going to cut and paste that here:

"I see how much horses and hounds and people love hunting. And I know children and dogs and even horses love to play games of chase. I think nature may have wired us to enjoy hunting and similated hunting activities. And though I don't know what is in the mind of coyotes or foxes, if nature has wired man and dog to enjoy hunting (because those that enjoyed hunting would be good at it and would survive by not starving) and to enjoy being chased (because those that enjoyed games of tag and chase would be fit and skilled and able to evade predators and therefore survive) then I believe that nature would have wired coyotes with the same positive incentive for the same reasons. Every foxhunter I know has anecdotes of foxes and coyotes that appeared to "toy with" the pack and appeared to "enjoy" the sport. Now, the stakes are certainly much higher for quarry in this sport, but I truly believe that the experience of hunting and being hunted are part of nature's plan. And that is part of my thought process and part of why I hunt, I love nature and the animals and the chase, and I accept that sometimes the quarry meets its fate. I root for the coyote, I admire it's skills and cunning and stamina, and I am happy that he almost always gets away."

Hunter's Rest replied in that thread: "'hard wired for hunting' humans are studied in detail in lovely prose and well-researched in Rupert Issaccson's (?) book 'The Wild Host' and its at Horse Country. Anyone else fascinated by this topic and thread (how could you not be?, friend or foe ...) should absolutely look at it."

Think about the gray fox, for example, who can climb trees to escape. Why would a chased one not end the chase ASAP by going up trees instead of leading hounds on a merry run? Seems to me a confident, healthy young wild canine MIGHT be playing with the hounds.

That gray fox was amazing. I was whipping in and was dispatched down a trail through the covert as the front whip on the right side, to get ahead to the end of the trail and wait to see if anything popped out of the north end of the covert. When I got there, I waited standing still for 5-10 minutes, then the fox moved out of a small cluster of evergreens ahead of me...and sat down about 25-30 feet in front of me and looked at me. He stared at me, my horse and I stared at him. The fox lay down, sprawling like a dog, and watched us. As a whip, I could leave to find the huntsman, risking that the fox would get up and run in the direction we can't hunt (in which case we would not want to put the hounds on the line) or halloa to relay the information to my huntsman. The danger of halloaing is scaring the quarry and changing his course. This parked fox was a new situation for me, and after some thought, I decided to halloa.

I have a good, loud halloa. My gray friend sat up when I halloaed...and cocked his head. And sat there and looked at me. After several minutes, he got up, stretched, and sat down to look at me again. As there was no sign of our huntsmank, I halloed again. About five minutes after that, I head him coming up the trail behind me. When he got to the end of the trail, I asked him if he'd heard my halloa? He said no. I said I had a fox. He said where. I pointed. He said when? I said...right now, he's right there on the other side of the tree. The huntsman started to move forward and the fox got up and quietly disappeared back into his cluster of evergreens. The huntsman brought the hounds to the line and they were off on the chase I described above.

This was probably eight or ten years ago. I can still remember that day and that fox very clearly, it was a wonderful experience. He never acted scared—he was curious about me, and he was curious about the hound Famous that he sniffed noses with. What a cool, cool creature!

bovon

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:03 AM

Badger,

what a cool, awesome story..wish I could've been you that day:yes:

Melelio

Dec. 6, 2006, 07:11 AM

I didn't read all the replies so I know this has been said, but I will say it again. I rode with Orange County and Middleburg Hunts in the 80s, and know that none of the member ever wanted to see a 'kill'. They get fond of their foxes, and if a fox gives you a good run, who on earth would want to kill one that was such a great sport? It was exciting even to VIEW the fox, much less get close enough to think about catching it. That was never considered.

I think it was different in 'olden times' and even in the UK presently, that fox were overrunning the place, killing stock, and really were considered vermin. Not ever so here. The kill tradition amy have come over initially from there, but I think it probably stopped quickly, as there aren't nearly so many foxes here.

Never hunted coyote. That sounds fun! Though as a huntsman I 'd be worried it'd turn on the hounds! :eek:

wateryglen

Dec. 6, 2006, 11:30 AM

munch, munch, munch....it's the holidays so I'm eating fruitcake while reading this one....!!! :winkgrin: pass the eggnog HR!
Hmmmm....I have several cool fox stories about their escapist & entertaining behaviors during a chase. We must all agree at least that they aren't always "stressed" when on the run.
Fox goes in abandoned old farm house (basement+2 floors above) and hounds follow. Over next 10 mins we sit outside and see fox & hounds alternately sticking their heads out looking out the windows for each other. Hounds speaking & quite the ruckus! Fox escapes out the basement window and sits down and watches from a nearby rise while the hounds go over & over the many lines he left in there. Scratches himself behind the ear and walks away after catching his breath.....WHAT was he thinking!!?? :lol:
Used to trailride with a bunch of farm dogs who'd chase anything that moved.....had a local fox follow us on many a ride thru his territory with those dogs.....oh maybe a 50 yds behind and if I stopped to look at him = he'd stop. Dumb dogs never saw him or chased him....What was HE thinking!?
Hilltopping alone one day and had a fox den right in front of me on the hillside. Hounds off in the distance speaking on his line. I tried to stay perfectly still. Fox comes in & outa the hole a coupla times to sit & watch but was a bit bothered by my presence. (I DO have a scarey looking horse...it wasn't me actually!) Ultimately he waited till the strike hounds broke the cover and down he dived. Huntsman blew gone to ground and off we went. Me in the back per usual.....I looked over my shoulder and the fox came out and sat next to the whole and watched the parade leave the vicinity! Kinda like...."see ya'll next time!!"
Local coyotes have followed me & my dog many, many times out trailriding....what are THEY thinking!??? :cool:

A. P.

Dec. 6, 2006, 11:51 AM

Drvmb1ggl3

Dec. 6, 2006, 12:28 PM

First let me say that I am neither a fox-hunter, nor an animal rights activist. I eat meat and wear leather, and have slaughtered rabbits that I raised from birth. I thoroughly enjoy my position at the top of the food chain.

BUT .... to say the fox is killed 'instantaneously' is complete and utter BS.
It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the 'wiley ol fox' is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.

If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: "I don't care about the fox. It's just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox".

But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.

I think you'll find that the number of fox killed in hunting in North America is actually quite small.

But I do agree with you on the other point though. I don't understand why people feel the need to somehow come up with warm fuzzy cock and bull stories about the fox enjoying the hunt. I'm sure it's nothing less than traumatic and a terrifying experience and I don't understand why people can't be honest, unless they feel a certain amount of guilt or regret. I have no problem believing that and I have hunted fox and coursed hares with greyhounds, and would continue to do so because there's an inherent primeaval beauty in it that's hard to verbalise.

It reminds me of people in horseracing responding to catastophic breakdowns by saying "but those horses love to run, they would have wanted to die like that". Actually no, I'm sure those horses would have prefered to be out in a field up to their hocks in clover.
Steeplechasing takes a toll on horses, yet it's my favourite sport in the world. I can accept that that is an unfortunate part of the game, but I still love the racing game though. I can respect that others don't feel that way.

Hunter's Rest

Dec. 6, 2006, 01:22 PM

AP
Until you are actually on a hunt, and actually see (with your own eyes) a kill, please don't tell us how it is. A week ago, with Old Dominion, the hounds found quickly, at our Texas Farm fixture. Mr. Fox headed north a few hundred yards til he made Thumb Run - where he came into view of the back of the field, which I was personally with. We watched him turn at hte creek and head back south-southeast. Ran right into the pack. The lead hound dispatched him with a single shake. Took less than 1/4 of a second. The hounds then went on elsewhere, casting themselves. A whip was within 7 seconds of the kill; she rode over, stood over-near the fox so the huntsman could see where to come and, eventually, the huntsman and the 'head of hte line' got circled back to where the 'back of hte line' and the hounds were already.
Please, don't comment upon which you know not.
Hounds are neither cats nor horses. They do not toy with their prey like a cat, nor do they simply tear into their food like a horse. The lead hound kills and moves on.

Hunter's Rest

Dec. 6, 2006, 01:27 PM

PS The fox killed last week was not 'run down'. That is rare. He made a mistake. One time (in 35 years of active hunting) I've seen prey run down, and this was actually a coyote, with the Hillsboro in Tennessee. Hounds pursued for over an hour and indeed they ran him down.
Coyotes can and do turn on your lead hounds. Often a very real fear.
Yep. I hate foxes. Love to see 'em all scared out of their wits, then ripped to shreds.
That must be why I feed chicken scraps filled with ivermec to counteract the mange they get sometimes. Hate 'em. Pesky vermin.
Right.
Hunters are your champion conservationists. You don't believe it, ask an Englishman.
PPS Pass the 'nog, WateryGlen. This story seems to be taking a hard turn. (munch munch munch. Hard to talk so much with my mouth full. munch munch munch.)

Tantivy1

Dec. 6, 2006, 02:21 PM

BUT .... to say the fox is killed 'instantaneously' is complete and utter BS. It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the 'wiley ol fox' is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: "I don't care about the fox. It's just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox".

But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.

Three weeks ago. Big red pops out of a covert and dashes midway up a hill. Stops in mid-flight, TURNS AROUND, looks at the hounds at the bottom of the hill screaming on his scent, stays in place, LOOKS AT THE FIELD OF RIDERS across the hill from him, appears that he is trying to make up his mind what direction to take off....FINALLY decides where to run and off he dashes (chased the rascal a good distance but lost him).

I REGULARLY see such instances. And I simply cannot....RATIONALIZE that fox as having been overly worried.

And I resent the FACTS of what I saw, AND regularly see, as being labeled "naive".

Tantivy

vineyridge

Dec. 6, 2006, 02:38 PM

Research has shown that all dogs-small, big, tiny, hound, Yorkie, all of them--instinctively have what is called "the killing bite". They don't have to see it or practice it or learn it. It's actually hard wired in canis familiaris. They are born knowing how to kill smaller animals. Other behaviors have to be learned from their mothers or other dogs, but the killing bite does not.

I've seen it several times. The prey is grabbed by the back of the neck, and one quick and hard shake breaks the neck. Death is instantaneous. Only after death would the animal be torn to shreds, but most domestic dogs will simply leave it to ripen and work on it later.

vineyridge

Dec. 6, 2006, 02:47 PM

I think you'll find that the number of fox killed in hunting in North America is actually quite small.

But I do agree with you on the other point though. I don't understand why people feel the need to somehow come up with warm fuzzy cock and bull stories about the fox enjoying the hunt. I'm sure it's nothing less than traumatic and a terrifying experience and I don't understand why people can't be honest, unless they feel a certain amount of guilt or regret. I have no problem believing that and I have hunted fox and coursed hares with greyhounds, and would continue to do so because there's an inherent primeaval beauty in it that's hard to verbalise.

You're British, though. In your experience and the experience of English foxes, hunting usually results in death. Here, hunting usually doesn't result in the death of the quarry from the chase. Perhaps wild canines have learned that they have less to fear from their domesticated cousins, have more confidence in their survival, and get pleasure from outwitting the hounds.

Whistlejacket

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:02 PM

Similar to other experiences posted here, in my 15 years of foxhunting (in the US) I have witnessed one kill - the fox was covered in mange, was not torn to shreds (one quick snap of the neck by the lead hound) and was not chased for miles (the fox was ill, offered little chase, and was quickly killed). I am not sure what is the data for stating that the fox is "torn to shreds" (while still alive).

And as for chasing a fox for miles in terror - foxes are exquistly familar with their home territory and know where there dens are (in the US foxes are not dug out) and also have an uncanny ability to know where the hunt territory ends - in which case the hounds are called off and the chase ends.

In any case, when I started foxhunting (as an adult) I was immediately struck by how few times (i.e. rarely) that the fox is caught. I took this to mean and still take it to mean how inept us humans and hounds are relative to the fox in this kind of forum. Just think about it - one fox versus dozens of hounds, horses and humans, and the fox is not caught the vast, vast majority of times. Even though the huntsman and hounds may be superb, the fox is so much more skilled that we are. In this forum, we can hardly be considered much of a significant adversary to the fox.

This experience also has explained to me why there are so many expressions in the language like "clever as a fox", "quick as a fox", etc. These expressions, like many expressions, are based in reality. And it was only through the experience of foxhunting and appreciating the skill of a fox that I truly learned the meaning of these expressions. Again, the fox "is" really clever and quick, and even though I have great respect for the hounds, the fox makes many hounds, even some of the best, look like not much of an adversary.

Bottom line, a fox makes us humans and even the incredible hounds look like a bunch of hacks.

citydog

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:09 PM

Well, I'm mighty interested in the playchase possibility that Badger and others have raised, but I'm leery to fully commit to that because it's also possible that what is being seen and interpreted as the fox "waiting" for the hounds to catch up, or "intentionally staying one step ahead" is actually the fox trying to conserve its energy resources as much as possible.

Part of what makes domestic dogs domestic is their retention of certain juvenile characteristics, of which play is one. Wolves and coyotes play, yes, but not as readily or extensively as their domestic cousins.

Dunno!

Still reading/listening. :)

And thanks to all for making it this far without a trainwreck. :yes:

MuleLady

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:19 PM

Most interesting thread. My observation is that, unlike many other forms of hunting, foxhunters do not employ stealth. Quite the opposite: we are extremely noisy, make no effort to conceal our scent, and surely transmit enormous vibrations through the earth via many scores of hooves and paws. Kind of hard to imagine any healthy fox not being able to elude us with that kind of advance warning. Which I guess is why it is such a thrill to view a fox doing what he does so very well...using all his considerable faculties and keen senses to master his environment and overcome challenges!

SteeleRdr

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:33 PM

For all those who are opposed to foxhunting and speaking of the creulty...I sure hope you are also against all deer and other animal hunting via firearm or other weapon.

I can say that I have heard many a story from hunter friends of mine that have talked about how they shot a deer/rabbit/fox/etc that they had to go look for because it didn't die at that moment.

I have been present for one kill. A "chopped" fox that was very old and injured. The fox was dispatched and accounted for immediately, no running off to find him a mile away dead. Dead within an split second! Have heard many stories of other kills that have happened while friends have been out foxhunting, to about the same tune.

I've said my peace- now who wants christmas cookies...and i'll take some of that eggnog that was being passed around...

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Dec. 6, 2006, 03:45 PM

Research has shown that all dogs-small, big, tiny, hound, Yorkie, all of them--instinctively have what is called "the killing bite".

Yep.:yes: I get to see this proved several times a week in fall and winter, when my Lhasa Apso catches the field mice that sneak into the house to escape the cold. He snares 'em in his fearsome jaws, slings his massive head to the side once, :winkgrin: and *snap* - ex-mousie. After that, he's done. He leaves the corpses for lesser mammals - i.e. me and the cats - to dispose of. No tearing to pieces. I'm sure he'd behave the same in a pack, although a pack of Lhasa is a fearsome notion indeed.:eek: :lol:

Now, who's read Temple Grandin's "Animals in Translation"? I know there was some explanation in there posited for this "teasing" behavior between squirrels and hounds but I can't remember what her theory was.

rileyt

Dec. 7, 2006, 12:58 PM

Sorry for my long absence, but thank you to everyone for this very informative (and level headed) discussion. Especially to Anne FS.

One note of reply to A.P. - with my limited experience, I do worry (as you do) that Mr. Reynard really does not enjoy the chase. I do worry, that his little heart starts beating mighty quickly when the hounds are in full cry. I say this despite the numerous accounts by people here, who truthfully say they have seen the fox looking quite unperturbed by the whole experience.

But to say that because hunters turn a blind eye to this fear, or disagree with it, that they are just a bunch of fox haters, could not be more incorrect.

I know it must sound insincere to people who don't understand it, but my first riding teacher was a fox hunter. In fact, she was a whip for a very old and notable hunt. She is gone know, but trust me when I tell you, if a sick or injured fox had ever turned up on her property, she'd would've gone to great lengths to see to its health.

Whenever hunters get together and trade stories, the best ones, told with the most gusto and the biggest smiles, are always about the fox who got away. Stories about the rare times when a fox is killed, are told in hushed and respectful tones, as if discussing the passing of a dear friend.

As hunters go, fox hunters are somewhat unique. You have never seen so many people get so much enjoyment over their continued ineptitude as hunters.

AC & Ty

Dec. 7, 2006, 01:59 PM

As hunters go, fox hunters are somewhat unique. You have never seen so many people get so much enjoyment over their continued ineptitude as hunters.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quite possibly the best (and funniest) statement on this thread yet! HA HA!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SidesaddleRider

Dec. 7, 2006, 02:55 PM

As hunters go, fox hunters are somewhat unique. You have never seen so many people get so much enjoyment over their continued ineptitude as hunters.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That was absolutely hysterical, rileyt! I sent it to a bunch of my foxhunting friends...

A. P.

Dec. 7, 2006, 03:01 PM

I fully realize that the fox is seldom caught. I just get irritated when fox-hunter deny any stress, pain or harm befall the fox that is being chased.
I expect the animal is scared witless, and time spent out-running hounds is time spent burning calories and not hunting for its own sustenance.
all the "Mr Reynard laughing up his sleeve" talk is pure rationalizing BS.

Again, if you feel the enjoyment you derive from hunting outweighs the fear and possible pain/injury the fox suffers, that's cool, just admit it and stop trying to convince everyone that the fox doesn't suffer anything!

I realize the lot of farm-raised animals is not always great. I realize they often live in less than optimal circumstances, and experience fear and pain in the slaughter process. But I admit that place a higher value on the benefits I derive from eating meet that I do on the animals well-being. I am not proud of that, but I do not try to assuage my guilt by pretending that caged-layers are happier being kept in cramped pens, or that little lambs go happily skipping off to meet their maker.

And hounds ARE dogs, dammit!

SteeleRdr

Dec. 7, 2006, 03:28 PM

Hounds may be dogs, but dogs ARE NOT ALL hounds!

again- have you ever first hand been foxhunting A.P.? do you really know how to delve into the fox psyche? I know I can't! But have been privy to watch the actions and eyes of a fox sitting on a coop watching the hounds work the scent he laid probably 20 minutes earlier, looking around like hmm...what are they doing?! If the fox were so afraid of the hounds, I'm not sure why we have 5 that live behind our hunt clubs kennels....

and rileyt- I almost spit coke all over my work computer!!

caffeinated

Dec. 7, 2006, 04:19 PM

it's also possible that what is being seen and interpreted as the fox "waiting" for the hounds to catch up, or "intentionally staying one step ahead" is actually the fox trying to conserve its energy resources as much as possible.

Definitely possible!

But while I haven't been on a foxhunt (yet- we're working on it, though fate keeps conspiring against it!), I have observed foxes doing this while on trail rides and also while out running on wooded trails- neither of which were instances where it took much energy to get out of the way or hide. I hate anthropomorphizing, but it really seemed like the fox was playing a game- seeing how close I could get before he dashed away up the trail and sat down and waited again.

On the other hand, the fox could have been trying to draw me away from a den or something... hard to say. But I swear if an animal could talk, the foxes would have been saying "neener neener!"

AC & Ty

Dec. 8, 2006, 05:27 AM

Again, if you feel the enjoyment you derive from hunting outweighs the fear and possible pain/injury the fox suffers, that's cool, just admit it and stop trying to convince everyone that the fox doesn't suffer anything!

Hell, I suffer fear (am I going to fall off today?), pain (it's been 4 hours, can we just GO IN?), and injury (mutiple scratch marks across face from branches and a bruised knee from the tree we rounded like a barrel racer)...so does that make you feel any better? :cool:

Huntertwo

Dec. 8, 2006, 06:59 AM

And hounds ARE dogs, dammit!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Huntertwo

Dec. 8, 2006, 07:00 AM

Hell, I suffer fear (am I going to fall off today?), pain (it's been 4 hours, can we just GO IN?), and injury (mutiple scratch marks across face from branches and a bruised knee from the tree we rounded like a barrel racer)...so does that make you feel any better? :cool:

But that is your choice.....;)

Tom King

Dec. 8, 2006, 08:40 AM

I know the MFH of a small hunt who also kennels the hounds on her property. A fox, that is well known by sight, comes into the yard every night to check for cat food and strolls right by the kennels much to the dismay of the hounds and the people trying to sleep in the house. He has led the chase many times and has been seen sitting outside the pens on several nights. Once he led the hounds right through a big ouside wedding party. He doesn't seem to be stressed by the whole scene.

Anne FS

Dec. 8, 2006, 09:13 AM

Nor is it a game to the pack that pursues the creature's scent (and by default, the creature itself). It is deadly serious. The only creature who finds it "sport" is the human -- they more-or-less direct the contest from one side (the pack) and watch the outcome -- rather like the Roman crowds watching a gladiator fight, or the Spanish crowds watching a bull fight.

You're right about some things and wrong about some things.

SOMETIMES it's a game if the fox is confident: they do indeed stop to watch and they have no concern. SOMETIMES it's deadly serious (a fox caught out of his territory, or too full to run with the pack close behind). And I have no illusions that's a picnic for the fox. I agree that it's 'deadly serious' although I don't think they're thinking of it in the same way a human would be, but admit I do not know. And I also agree that a good hound may certainly want to catch and kill and not touch noses and play. (A hound pup, perhaps).

Where you're wrong is the analogy to the gladiator fight (no escape for the glads out of the arena) and the bull fight (ditto: not only no escape for the bull out of the arena, but first it's stabbed and wounded and weakened by mounted horsemen with those spears before the matador even enters). So these are terrible and totally inaccurate analogies to a free-ranging wild animal. Not even close.

It is indeed watching predator and prey (hound and fox) at work. That's what hunting IS. And lots of people don't like, but lots of people do.

So the question is are the ones who don't like it allowed to decide what the ones who do like it can do? IOW, I don't like hunting. Ok, so then don't hunt. Oh, no, I don't like hunting so YOU can't hunt. ???

In England that question's been answered, as it was answered in Nazi Germany when Hitler also outlawed mounted foxhunting.

I have an anti-hunting friend who agrees with the above scenario: if I say, ok, you don't like it, so don't do it, he says, oh, I don't like it so I won't do it and no one else can do it either. I laughed and told him I cannot abide soccer (he loves it and both his kids play constantly). I told him that the conversion of all the open park fields to overly fertilized and chemically enhanced grass soccer fields where no one is allowed except the local soccer teams annoys the heck out of me. I want soccer outlawed. I just don't like it. And I know a lot of people besides me think soccer is stupid. He said don't go watch it if it annoys me but it was ridiculous to outlaw something just because "I" didn't like it when other people obviously love it. That was crazy.

Exactly.

AC & Ty

Dec. 8, 2006, 12:14 PM

Stopping and watching doesn't make it a game. For the wild creature to stop and watch means they are making a decision whether the threat is oncoming and for them to continue running to save their life, or the threat has turned and they can relax and go on about their business. Young ones usually keep running because instinct tell thems to, and they have a lack of worldly knowledge to make an informed decision on whether they can safely stop... or not. Old ones, who have lived long enough to understand the cause-and-effect actions of other preditors, will pay attention to the sights and sounds of an event and determine when(if) the chase is moving away from them and (if) they are not in the line of fire. They will wait, watch, and listen. But this is NEVER a game.

Yada yada yada...so what, we are fox psychologists now? PUH-LEASE. Neither you nor I KNOW what the fox is thinking, 100% percent without a doubt....

Some here are merely telling you accounts of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. The latter being the operative words.

As everyone keeps saying, unless you have witnessed it PERSONALLY during a hunt from the back of horse, in OUR OPINION ONLY, there is little merit to your conclusions of the fox psyche.

Well, must sign off...gotta get to the barn to feed my hunt horse! :D

Equibrit

Dec. 8, 2006, 12:21 PM

Ther is nothing like criticism, from the viewpoint of the truly ignorant, to really hack you off!

Anne FS

Dec. 10, 2006, 09:21 AM

<<I used these two [Spanish bullfighting and Roman gladiator battles] merely to illustrate the "sport" of pitting of one creature against another for the amusement of spectators. I didn't compare them to each other, nor did I desire to.>>

Uh, nice try to backtrack, but you did.

You used them as a comparison. You wrote, and I quote, that foxhunting was "rather like" the Roman gladiators and the bullfights. And I pointed out that it was not at all like them.

I do agree with you that the posts about pups "catching" the fox only to play with it are not typical behavior, I don't think, and ME PERSONALLY ONLY, I wouldn't care for such a hound. Though I certainly believe the veracity of such stories, esp. with young hounds. But hunting is hunting. I admit that if hounds catch up to a fox, yes, I fully expect them to kill it. I believe, and scientific study backs me up, that the fox is dead within 1-3 seconds. The brouhaha in England quoted extensively from the study that 'proved' that the fox does not die from a broken neck, but usually from a crushed chest - IOW, it usually gets to take a breath (as in 1 breath) before expiring. The antis gave this tremendous publicity as it refuted the broken neck theory the the pro-hunting side kept saying, yet I thought this was so odd because the study did indeed prove that the fox was dead literally within 1-3 seconds of being caught and I couldn't understand why the pro side didn't extensively use that information. The 'torn to pieces' aftermath which upsets so many was proven to occur after the fox is definitely dead. The antis continually repeated the torn to pieces horrible way to die scenario and this study firmly disproved it. Post #1 in this thread used the fox is 'torn to shreds' statement.

So, science proved that foxes killed by hounds die in 1 second, MAYBE 3 seconds. Foxes gassed - I think it was 20-30 minutes. Poisoned? Could be anywhere from hours to days. Shot? Instantly <50% of the time, days, weeks, with concomitant suffering, FIFTY PERCENT OF THE TIME.

Pointing out again that the USA doesn't hunt for the kill; I agree it's dissembling to say they NEVER kill or to give the impression that hounds won't kill if they should catch the fox - yet maybe after all these years in the States it's not like when I was a kid and the hound better kill what it catches - maybe today hounds American hounds truly won't kill when they catch. The point is to see for yourself and be open-minded and not just say stuff when the people who are out actually doing it know more than you and I.

promlightshine

Dec. 10, 2006, 08:15 PM

We whips carry radios as our territory is quite wooded and tight. Today my radio picked up a woman telling a man that there was a fox right outside their home . We were in a large nursery so I suspect it was abutting the property.

Anyway, she was describing a very mangey fox. I was happy our hounds didn't find it.

I much prefer to harass coyote. They move quickly, are incredibly smart and I firmly believe feel superior to their canine cousins and the humans that follow. I also believe that a fox kill in the US is rare but a coyote kill is likely rarer. I could certainly be wrong.

I love the hounds. I love the sound of their voices and I love watching them work. The aspect of a live hunt is every hunt is different and you need to be far enough away to stay out of the way but close enough to know where they are and what the potential risks are . I'm still learning.. what an incredible, exciting education :)!

Thomas_1

Feb. 5, 2007, 11:03 AM

Of course fox hounds kill the fox on a fox hunt. It does what it says on the can!

However the kill is over is seconds with the alpha hounds immediately grabbing the fox and killing it and the fox is long dead before the rest of the pack get on it.

However that doesn't make for such good reading by the "antis"

katherine w

Feb. 5, 2007, 01:46 PM

Wow... lots of replies on a topic that would have been avoided like the plague just a few years ago. I tried to read most of the posts so that I don't repeat.

I am not currently active with any hunts. Had children not too long ago and its quite a drive to hunt so I'm focusing on being a mom right now. However, I hunted for about 12 years, primarily in the southeast. During that time I witnessed many "kills". All were instantaneous and the animals did not seem to suffer. On many occasions I also witnessed the hunted animal, rarely strained in his run.

When those animals were killed, I can't say that anyone was overjoyed with the killing. The masters and huntsmen were proud of their hounds but there wasn't a big to-do, especially in more recent times. The only person I ever saw who truly celebrated was the land- owner. We killed many cayotes that were celebrated by land owners.

Blooding was common when I started hunting. It was a bit of a shock to me and I was disgusted by it. Later I understood it more and was proud to have hunted in a time when it was openly offered. Now, even with hunts that frequently kill, blooding is not offered. You can request it. Many people don't know to request it, some with good hosts will know about it and some, whom other hunt members pick up on as politically okay, will be asked (by a field member) if they want to be blooded. But all of this was 5 years ago, they may not offer it at all now.

I admit that I have a fox and bobcat on my wall. It was a huge honor to have these trophies awarded to me. Some people ask about them but once they get to know me they learn that I am not a blood thirsty person. I love the thrill of the chase. I love hearing that first voice call out from a trusted hound and knowing that we will soon be off. Just as much, I love the horse who listens for that first call and begins to twitch with excitement. The same horse who jigs home after 2-3 hours of solid galloping.

I hope I didn't gross anyone out or offend, just trying to offer a different view.

Melelio

Feb. 5, 2007, 04:04 PM

Would you kill your favorite tennis partners??? Nuff said....

SteeleRdr

Feb. 5, 2007, 06:42 PM

Not quite the same thing, Melelio

fullmoon fever

Feb. 5, 2007, 07:52 PM

Would you kill your favorite tennis partners??? Nuff said....

Depends on what they were wearing and whether or not they were poaching my "pro". :winkgrin:

xeroxchick

Feb. 6, 2007, 05:56 AM

After watching the superbowl I don't think anyone has room to talk about "cruelty."
Those poor morons.
It must be like getting into a car wreck every weekend. They trade their strong bodies for money, buy all the relatives a house, and end up crippled and broke at 40. Antis would do better to focus on that.
"Yes, but they are conscious humans!" Not quite - after they've been brain-washed all their lives.

AC & Ty

Feb. 6, 2007, 08:01 AM

Boy did this thread take a big 'ole nose dive after being ressurected....

Nice try, Melelio....but ah.....NOPE. ;)

Joypers

Feb. 6, 2007, 01:14 PM

maryverbeckpomeroy

Feb. 6, 2007, 01:33 PM

In over 50 years of hunting - a many different hunts.I've only seen two foxes killed... One was deliberate - the huntsman felt a kill would make his hounds keaner (he's now on the wall at Morven Park) and the second the fox was stupid and the new entry got him,(he ducked under a set of steps and the main body of hounds ran past..not the youngsters!)

It's the thrill of the chase - which you never get in a 'drag' hunt - and the music when the hounds open that keeps most of us going..........

SapeloApp

Feb. 6, 2007, 04:04 PM

MVP!! Hi! Miss you at the PB.

SAPP

promlightshine

Feb. 8, 2007, 07:35 PM

It's the thrill of the chase - which you never get in a 'drag' hunt - and the music when the hounds open that keeps most of us going..........

In a nutshell...

imissvixen

Feb. 8, 2007, 07:57 PM

Hmmmm, I have had some pretty good thrills drag hunting.

Beverley

Feb. 8, 2007, 11:11 PM

Gee, looks like this thread is recently revived after having been around a long time!

Yes, foxes and coyotes do get killed by the foxhounds during hunting. It doesn't happen often as has been stated, in over 30 years I've seen 5 kills. As has been noted, it's a quick kill, and the whole affair is on the fox's (or coyote's) own terms- scent hunting. If the fox is overly stressed, then please explain to me why:

1. Foxes not only survive, but thrive, in country that is hunted regularly compared with country that is not hunted. If being pursued by a pack of hounds were truly detrimental to their wellbeing, wouldn't they all either die of the stress, or move to an area where they couldn't be hunted?

2. In the U.S., the average life expectancy of a red fox is 2.5 years. Again, if being hunted by a pack of hounds is stressful to the fox, then why can many of us, self included, recall specific foxes that provided reliable sport for 4, 5, even 6 years?

3. Out here in the west, a coyote that sees 'anybody' coming from two miles away, takes off. Coyotes are likely to be shot at from that distance by ranchers with rifles. Soooo, why have the coyotes that are hunted in Red Rock country in Nevada adapted from taking off in a straight line when the hounds are onto them, to circling much like a fox until they don't want to play anymore (and then just turning on the afterburners and withdrawing from the chase)? Could it be that they've figured out the game, and realize that it's not much of a threat, especially in comparison to ranchers with rifles?

Those who don't foxhunt (or stalk deer, or shoot at upland birds or waterfowl) have trouble understanding that 'it's not about the kill.' No one rejoices when death occurs. Maybe it's that hunters are a little less in denial about the fact that death is, well, a fact of life. It is hard to explain, but anybody who cares to do a bit of independent and unbiased research will pretty quickly figure out that hunters who take all the flak for killing animals, actually save far more animals and habitat than do the animal rights organizations.

katherine w

Feb. 9, 2007, 01:28 PM

go beverly!!!

promlightshine

Feb. 9, 2007, 07:45 PM

" Hmmmm, I have had some pretty good thrills drag hunting."

And what were you doing? Were you in the field jumping jumps, running fast? Or were you at a standstill watching the hounds pick up the scent, while the coyote ran out above them?

I know I fox hunt. I know I may not canter or gallop at all in a day but others.. holy cow!! No choreography... no guarantee what the day will hold.

We both say we hunt like a euro and an american both say they play football. It may be called the same thing. There is a ball, there are players but it's very clearly a different game.

Drag and Live hunting both require the best of you and your horse. But one , and only one requires the best the hound(s) can offer.

rcloisonne

Feb. 11, 2007, 05:47 AM

Those who don't foxhunt (or stalk deer, or shoot at upland birds or waterfowl) have trouble understanding that 'it's not about the kill.'
It's not wholly about the kill. The stalking and chasing down part is fun too.

No one rejoices when death occurs.
Sure they do. Many humans and other predators experience quite a rush when they kill something. Otherwise, why do it?

Maybe it's that hunters are a little less in denial about the fact that death is, well, a fact of life.
I believe Hannibal Lecter and real mass murderers of the "organized" type use that exact statement as justification for what they do. They just choose a different species to stalk, hunt down and kill.

It is hard to explain, but anybody who cares to do a bit of independent and unbiased research will pretty quickly figure out that hunters who take all the flak for killing animals, actually save far more animals and habitat than do the animal rights organizations.
Research funded by the NRA, no doubt. ;)