A horsewoman's guide to self defense - UPDATE last page [Archive]

King's Ransom

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:24 PM

I actually wrote a column about this last year and if I can find it, I will post and anyone who wants it can PM me. It is a "hot topic" for me.

The best teacher you have is your horse! He/she is an animal of prey -- and right now, so are you! Think about how your horse reacts to perceived danger. Sometimes we laugh at them for being afraid of leaves blowing across their path unexpectedly. But your horse has a wonderful instinct that keeps him alive and of which is he is unabashedly unashamed -- fear. We are often so ashamed of our fear, but fear has a purpose and that is to keep us alive.

Given a chance, your horse will RUN before he will fight. But cornered without options, fight he will ... for all he is worth. He can be a formidable foe ... but still, even in the midst of the fight, he is looking for a chance to RUN.

And even though horses live with fear, we do not think them cowards, now do we? No, in fact, we think of them as being courageous. Because they do things despite their fear. They learn to trust us. They overcome their fear of us to form partnerships. And then they do incredible things.

But no matter how much they trust us, they never lose their instinctive fears. And, when seen in that perspective, I think we can embrace our own instinctive fears. The biggest mistake most women make is to NOT trust their fear. To not yell out, strike out, or RUN when their bodies say GO. We fall into the grips of predators because we suppress our fears.

Look to your horse on this one. He knows how to stay alive and he is never embarrassed about running away from "nothing." Relieved ... but not embarrassed!

Candle

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:30 PM

Take a self defense course geared towards women from your local college or police department. All of us women should do it anyways for our own safety in general, but yes, being at barns after dark and alone would freak me out and I think that women get too complacent about safety issues in familiar spaces, whether or not they are actually safe. The sad fact remains that women are seen as easier targets than men.

In OP's case, get a concealed weapons permit. And a very large dog.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:33 PM

The biggest mistake most women make is to NOT trust their fear. To not yell out, strike out, or RUN when their bodies say GO. We fall into the grips of predators because we suppress our fears.

I totally agree here, I think we get complacent. I know I do. I often ran, biked, and walked in the exact area where the last attack happened. Never thought twice about it. Took my dog with me a lot of times but she's not exactly a scary type!

I think us women are thought to be a bit silly when we get worried about our personal safety. Unfortunately as you said it causes so many people to ignore their instincts.

There are two dogs at the barn, but they are kept on runs. They are pretty noisey though so at the very least they are a warning signal that someone's on the property.

DressageReine

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:34 PM

Well put, King's Ransom!

blondebates

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:34 PM

maybe carry a pocket knife with you at all times.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:36 PM

Take a self defense course geared towards women from your local college or police department.

In OP's case, get a concealed weapons permit.

Both good ideas. I took a self defense class as a college student but sure could use a refresher.

And as far as a weapons permit, I think at the very least it could lead to a sense of empowerment. I've always kind of wanted to learn how to use a gun. Perhaps now is the time!

Trixie

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:37 PM

Kingsransom, I'll be PMing you, but if you can find it, *please* post it.

msj

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:39 PM

I have a very vocal dog for starters! The turn off the bark switch doesn't work well. :sigh: So I'd count on the dog to alert me. I also think she'd jump in and protect me as well as she will ALWAYS stay between me and a stranger for at least the first few minutes someone new is there. :yes:

Then I have one of those 10 pronged steel pitchforks, not the wimpy plastic or apple-picker one. I don't think I'd hesitate to run it thru someone if they were intent on doing me harm. :eek:

And I could always run into the tack room. It's got a steel door and dead bolt lock as well as bars at the window. ;)

I feel pretty safe in my barn.

nightsong

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:48 PM

Took my dog with me a lot of times but she's not exactly a scary type!

The BIGGEST value of a dog is not to attack, but to alert you that th ere is a problem.

RoseBud143

Nov. 20, 2006, 08:57 PM

omg i havent even heard of this!! in FL we have a new self defense law that we can now shoot to kill if attached, or needed for self defens, thouhg im not sure the legistics of it... i also always carry a pocket knife and i have two dogs....and a cell phone, Tell some were you go,and always were your going, and how long your going for and when your going to be back so that if your longer someone will know and do something..... and good luck and stay safe..

oh and the buddy systems always helps!!!

Huntertwo

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:02 PM

Wow that is scary..I don't have anything to ad, except please be safe!!!
Can anyone go with you to the barn in the evenings?

Could you get permission from the dogs (the one on runs) owner to tie one up in the barn while you are there alone?

When I used to get creeped out, I'd too keep a metal pitchfork within reach.

Sobriska

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:10 PM

Take a self defense course. Not simply because of this issue. Simply because every woman should.
If this is not your own barn, you may not have an option of bringing a dog with you.
WHen you are on your horse you are more secure. WIth your horse you can run. Or depending on your horse, you may be able to use him/her as a weapon. Don't let anyone you don't know get close to your horse when you are on board. Tell strangers "my horse kicks, strikes, bites". I don't care if your horse is the most placid creature on Earth. If you speak with authority, a potential attacker will see that huge animal as a risk not worth taking.
Don't put yourself in a position to be alone at the barn if at all possible. 3 or more people is far better than one female all alone. If you find yourself alone, be alert. Be VERY alert. Does not mean being paranoid, but do listen to that inner voice. Keep something that could easily be used for a weapon nearby. If you choose a firearm, get proper instruction. If you choose pepper spray, same thing. Whatever you choose as a method to defend yourself, practice the scenarios. Even if only in your own mind. You CAN train yourself to react a certain way if you play and replay your responses in your mind. Kind of like the positive imagery in riding.
If you know this monster is in your area, choose staying away from the barn if there is any chance you could be alone. We all want to see our horses and ride them etc. But it's totally not worth taking a big risk on your life just to keep your horse fit for a show.

Moesha

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:11 PM

King's Ransom, What an interesting analysis? That was really a fascinating angle at examining horses reactins to things and spooking.

Runawayalter...take care of yourself and be careful....

I agree with getting a dog, and maybe a sawed off shotgun...blow the A$%H()*& head off..and I mean his other head!

Pocket Pony

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:18 PM

King's Ransom, what an excellent post.

To the OP, I have nothing further to share except to join others in saying be careful and I hope the mofo is caught soon!!! How scary! :mad: :eek:

appaloosalady

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:19 PM

That is so scary. You do definitely need to rely on your instincts - don't be afraid to be afraid. We had a murder in the area recently, which is pretty much unheard of . I keep my shotgun or pistol nearby, listen to what my dogs are telling me, and keep my guard up extra high. I was doing night chores way out back the other night with no lights and heard something large coming through the grass and brush towards me. Any other time I would have just thought "deer moving through" but I ran for my truck, jumped in, locked the doors and hit the headlights. Yup, just deer. Did I feel kind of silly? Yup, but definitely better silly and safe then not. Be careful, try not to be alone if you don't have to, don't worry about looking silly - your safety is more important than anything.

citydog

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:27 PM

Dog and a cell phone. Pre-arrange with your partner/spouse/friend that you'll absolutely, positively check in at specific time(s)--like every hour on the hour, and if they don't hear from you they call you, and if no response they call the police or alert the barn owners or whatever. Most cell phones let you set an alarm to prompt yourself. Take it *seriously* and make the calls. If you wanted to be a super duper disaster thinker, have a code word in case you're at knife-point when your phone rings and are forced to answer it and "act normal".

If you haven't been trained in close hand-to-hand knife combat, I think you'd actually be putting yourself at risk brandishing a pocket knife (it can piss off and further incite an attacker, who can then take it from you--a really simple task if you don't know what you are doing--and then use it against you).

Please be careful and let us know when they catch this waste of space.

King's Ransom

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:27 PM

Here is a copy of the column I wrote last year, A Big Wind is a Scary Thing

It is no secret that women have a “special” connection with horses. It’s easy to see, hard to explain. Some say horses reflect the beauty and elegance of women, or that women connect naturally with the horse’s untamable wild spirit. One popular theory suggests that by lending their strength and power, horses offer women an equalizer in competition with men. But I believe there is another bond between the hearts of women and horses that is more elemental.

After five days of driving snow, I have a bad case of cabin fever. But this morning, the sun is finally burning through the cloud cover. I can’t wait to get out to the stables for an early morning ride.

The barn is uncomfortably cold, heated only by the warmth of blanketed horses. There is electricity in the air on these cold winter mornings. The horses feel it, and my riding instructor says it makes them spooky.

I have seen skittish, spooky horses. The best word to describe their behavior is “unpredictable.” A spooky horse may dart, or dance, or kick out – jump up or rear back. But watching them in the arena is the extent of my experience. King is not a crazy, spooky horse. I remember once when we were on canter in the arena, a young horse turned broadside, his face to the wall, right in front of us. The youngster came to a dead stop, and I panicked, certain we were going to crash right into him. But King never missed a beat. He simply jogged smoothly to his right and snorted only once, as if to say, “Kids! You never know WHAT they’re going to do next!”

Walking into the arena, King pulls his head away from me, stamps his foot, then bumps his head into my shoulder.
“
What’s up with you, buddy? Are you mad at me for staying away so long?”

At the mounting block, he fidgets. I take a step up on the block. He takes a step away.

“Whoa! King. Stand still.”

I get off the block and back him up. This time, he waits and I am firmly seated. But he is still fidgeting, stamping his left front foot. I squeeze my legs against his sides, asking him to walk forward. It is not until King moves forward that I hear it. .. Ice is melting on the arena’s metal roof. Sliding in huge sheets and rumbling across the metal like a gravel truck. Crashing onto the shed roof behind us, exploding like cherry bombs.

King bolts across the arena, away from the noise.

“Easy boy. Easy there.” I collect the reins and pat his neck. “It’s just ice on the roof. I bet you’ve heard that a thousand times. We’re safe in here.”

King picks up his trot, but his strides are choppy and his gait is rough. Moving into the curve at the short end of the arena, he bolts and cuts so sharply back toward the center that I nearly lose my seat. The air is snappy and cold. Ice is rumbling across the rooftop and exploding into shards behind us. And for the first time in my life, I am riding a spooky horse.

We make it around the arena and head back into the curve. The wind is beating on the wall and the windows are rattling. King tries to cut away. I pull him back and steady. The wall shakes. He bolts and runs and I cannot pull him down. When he stops in the center of the ring, I have an idea. I dismount, collect the reins, and lead him back to the wall.

“Come on, buddy. Let’s just walk up to that big scary wall together. See, I’m right here beside you, and I’m not scared of it one bit. It’s just a little wind.”

I lead King right up to the wall, where he can get a good look at it. “See there, fella? Now don’t you feel silly for being so scared?”

The gale blows again. The windows rattle. The wall shakes. King rears back on his haunches and pulls the reins out of my hands. I grab them back and we’re both shaking as we walk away. King keeps his eye on that scary wall. Once he got a really good, up-close look, he didn’t just THINK that wall was scary. He was absolutely sure of it.

“Well, buddy, we’ve had enough fun for one morning. What do you say we call it day?” Back in his stall, I take off the saddle and bridle, tuck King into his blanket and say goodbye. The barn is coming to life now, as more people arrive to check on and exercise their horses. A friend asks if I am going or coming.

“I am going. King was just too spooky to ride. He’s scared to death of that wind whipping against the wall.”

“I don’t blame him. He was one of the horses that got caught out in the arena a few years ago when a big wind blew the roof off. It was an awful mess. I think a couple of the horses were killed.”

You know that really foolish feeling you get when you’re startled by something that turns out to be nothing? Like when someone comes up behind you and you didn’t know they were there, and you jump almost right out of your skin?

Get over it. King was right that morning, and I was the foolish one, standing beside that wall while the wind blasted into it. He knew the roof could blow off and come crashing down on us. He was afraid, and he was not ashamed of it. He tried to tell me that a big wind is a scary thing. And I should have listened.

I was so focused on what I was doing, I did not hear the ice sliding off the roof and crashing onto the shed, or the wind rattling the windows in the wall. Even if I had noticed, I would have felt foolish to be frightened by such an ordinary occurrence. What would I say to my friends? “Oh, I decided not to ride today because there was a big scary wind.” How silly.

And there’s something else. I wanted to ride. I had been waiting to ride for five days. I was focused on getting what I wanted. I walked into danger, ignoring the warnings, because I wanted to ride, and I assumed safety.

But King is different. He knows something I have yet to learn.

King does not assume safety. In fact, he assumes danger. Always aware of his surroundings he knows if, and where, there is an escape – long before he senses danger. But he is not a coward. It is his readiness to react decisively to danger that gives him the confidence, the courage, to jump fences.

Horses weigh upwards of one thousand pounds. They have huge rippling muscles, sharp hooves at the end of powerful legs, teeth inside vice-like jaws. And yet, given the opportunity, their reaction to danger or a threat is to run. It is a rare horse that will stand and fight, given open ground behind him. But if he cannot run, he will fight. He does not ponder this choice. He reacts instantly. If threatened, he will menace with his teeth bared and ears laid back. If pressured, he will bite and kick. All the while looking for that glimpse of daylight. He does not want revenge. He wants escape. Given the chance, he will head for the hills. He will survive. It is his nature.

King is a horse. And horses, like women, are animals of prey.

Somewhere in America, a woman is battered, usually by her intimate partner, every fifteen seconds. Domestic violence is a crime that affects up to 50 percent of American women. The average woman will leave, and return, seven or eight times before permanently escaping an abusive relationship.

Why do women stay in these violent situations? The reasons are varied and complex, but underlying all of them is fear. Fear of the abuser. Fear of being homeless. Fear of being alone. Fear that others will think she is everything the abuser said she was – incompetent, stupid, ugly, unlovable.

Unlike King, we are uncomfortable with, and shamed by fear. Because we are ashamed, we allow it to paralyze rather than empower us.

I thought I understood fear. But it took a big scary wind and the wisdom of my old friend to teach me what every woman needs to know. Fear is your friend. It keeps you safe. Embrace it. Breathe it in and let it empower you. Never be ashamed of it. Become comfortable with it. Use it. React to it. Cut. Dodge. Dart. Buck. Rear Back. Run. Survive. If you are trapped, let your fear push you to threaten back – to kick, bite, stomp, and charge. All the while looking for that glimpse of daylight.

And when you find it ... run.

Kimberly0317

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:33 PM

I am a black belt and have taught womens self defense classes for years.

1. The first step to self defense is self awareness. Pay attention to your surroundings, anything that looks odd or out of place. Pay attention to where the lighting is. When you leave, look under your vehicle before you step close to it. Lock your car, but if you forget check the back seat before your open the door. Basically, don't live in La La Land, pay attention to the world around you.

2. DO NOT carry a weapon that you are not willing to use and know how you are going to handle it if they get the weapon away from you. (If you got sprayed with pepper spray could you turn and run like hell or are you going to fall down?) Think about if before the situation arrises so that you don't have to stop and make a decision.

3. Listen to your sixth sense. You know when something doesn't feel right. When the hair stands up on the back of your neck your body is try to tell you something. Listen to it.

4. If you do ever get attacked, scream, yell and fight like hell (no matter what they tell you not to do), you will not ever get a second chance to fight for your life. I know it may sound disgusting, but if it scares the pee out of you, then pee all over yourself. It may gross him out enough that he will stop and nobody will think less of you for staying alive.

I hope this helps. Don't let fear stop you from living your life, just be aware and be in control of it.

Kimberly

RunawayAlter

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:39 PM

Kings Ransom, that is a fantastic article and what a neat parallel. I think women and horses are highly intuitive creatures and no doubt that is why we seem to form such tight bonds with each other.

Everyone has really good advice, which I will be heeding. After another night out at the spooky barn by myself, my husband has laid down the law and no longer wants me out at the barn in the evenings. We've both decided it may be better if I try to get to the barn earlier in the evening when there will probably be more people there. It may mean missing days if it doesn't coordinate with our schedule, but I suppose in the long run it is safer.

I've gotten a lot more aware of my surroundings lately, even walking to and from my car at night etc. My dog, despite being a big softee, has quite a large bark and on her home turf she is a pretty good alarmist. I leave her lose int he yard during the day and that has kept me feeling safe when I'm alone in the house.

We live in a small town and it is a little creepy to know such brutal attacks are happening here. Hopefully they catch the b@st@rd soon!

RunawayAlter

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:43 PM

I am a black belt and have taught womens self defense classes for years.

When you leave, look under your vehicle before you step close to it. Lock your car, but if you forget check the back seat before your open the door. Basically, don't live in La La Land, pay attention to the world around you.

Kim, that is funny you say that, I remember as a teen hearing an "urban legend" about a guy who'd hide under cars and slash your leg so you couldn't run. It scared me back then and so I developed a habit of always taking a quick glance under the car before getting close. Never check the back seat but will start doing so, I tend to be forgetful and leave my car unlocked (yes very bad habit.)

Renn/aissance

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:49 PM

Paging MistyBlue... I seem to recall that she advised us of several self-defense strategies for use on the trail. Perhaps some of them could work here, or maybe she knows others?

snaffle635

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:56 PM

King's Ransom - I got chills reading your article. It really struck a chord with me.

Runaway - I hope this nightmare ends soon and that monster is locked up. Keep us posted.

Linny

Nov. 20, 2006, 09:57 PM

Everyone has given great advice. Runaway Alter, please try to be safe evenif it means missing horsey time.

Please post if there are changes in the case or someone is caught. There are alot of people praying and jingling for your safety.

millwrightmomma

Nov. 20, 2006, 10:09 PM

Alter poster......... Kimberly had some good ideas.
I taught self defense to police officers, the women, and they learned things that they didn't learn at the academy.
Judo and karate are fine, but you do not have the time to learn it.
You need to find a bodyguard, one of the Russian dudes that are popping up, or an un-armed military combat instructor, and ask them to show you some 'defendo'.
It is to put an opponent on the ground, and keep him/her there long enough to get away.

You likely wouldn't think of it, but if a body part gets close to your mouth, bite it and bite Damn Hard, and shake your head like a dog trying to rip out a piece of someone's butt. Adults never expect another adult to bite.
Anyone that is put into this situation, has to fight to save themselves and believe that they will win.
Rarely will an attacker expect a fight, you don't hear about men getting jumped and raped when out for a walk, because a man will fight.
Scumbags like you are saying is out there, pick on women often because they can, women don't often fight back, and keep fighting to the end.

Get a big dog, many pound dogs do not like men. get the biggest one you can, and do not muzzle him when out with you.

Trust your sixth sense, start riding with a partner, pay a local teenager to come to the barn with you.

Carry a cell phone programmed to the emergency number, and you can get the buzzer/ beepers for old folks that fall down, and they can press a button and summon help.

Caring a knife or gun, or pepper spray is fine only if you know how to use it, and Can Use it. If you lose them in a struggle they can be weapons turned against you.

Remember a kick to the crotch doesn't do much, most men look for that, but a kick to the side of the knee, blows the knee out.
Kicking someone in the butt really hard, and just below the butt paralizes the leg, can't run on one leg.
When you are kicking, kick thru the object, knee, ribs, whatever.
If grabbed from behind, run your heel or the outside of your foot down their leg, and stamp hard on their foot where the ankle joins the leg. This hurts. Do it hard.
Pick both of your feet off the ground, making the attacker hold your weight.

Leave dangerous barn implements handy, and know where the lights are, you know the barn, but someone else doesn't.

Above all, stay safe.

llsc

Nov. 20, 2006, 10:14 PM

Oprah had an interesting show one time about how women are usually ignore their sixth sense, because they don't want to seem rude and hurt someone's feelings.

One example was a woman who was on an elevator and a man got in who made her feel uncomfortable, but she didn't want to seem rude and get out of the elevator, so she stayed in. The man raped her in the elevator.

Always, always trust your instincts. If the person makes you uncomfortable get out of there. Better to leave a potential customer standing in the barn aisle while you call for back-up from the locked office than to stay around trying to be nice to a rapist. If the person has no bad intentions they will understand why you did what you did and if your hurt thier feelings, so be it.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 20, 2006, 10:22 PM

Wow so much good advice here. Thanks everyone for the info and the good thoughts.

Millwrightmomma, great advice on defensive tactics. The knee area is something I'd never thought of but so true, you can pop someone's knee out that way. I know a few neighborhood women who are carrying knives now when they are out running or walking but I think going out in a group or not at all is probably a better option.

LLSC I saw a follow-up to that episode last week. A well-known actress was on, she had seen the original show. One day as a teen, while working at a shoe store, a guy came in that gave her bad vibes yet she ignored it. He ended up attacking her and a co-worker. She only realized once she was in the "second location" that she'd gotten herself into a serious predicament.

Linny, will update if anything arises. The guy's been on the loose doing this for 20 years and they thought he'd disappeared, but he is back and causing a lot of havoc. Local police and FBI are really wanting to find him now so hopefully they get a break. I know it will put a lot of us at ease once they do.

SBT

Nov. 20, 2006, 10:30 PM

TAKE A SELF-DEFENSE COURSE!!!!! I'm doing it now, and can't even tell you how much confidence it's giving me. :yes: My instructor used to teach at the State Police Academy, and teaches us the same moves and techniques they use. It's amazing how quickly you can put someone on the floor with MINIMAL strength and effort. It's all about knowing how to move your body and knowing where/how to apply pressure. I "practiced" on my 6', 220-lb. dad (I am 130-ish). Told him to grab me in a choke hold from behind. He did, and he was on the floor in two seconds. :D

I love this course so much, I'm taking it again next semester (we are allowed one PE credit in any given subject; this half-semester course is worth .5, so I can repeat it). I honestly think it should be MANDATORY in all colleges everywhere, and made available to the public at an affordable cost.

DEFINITELY check with your nearest community college. Also check out local martial arts academies. Most will want you to join a structured program, but if you explain your situation, I bet they'll help you. Your local police might be of assistance, too...I bet they know where you could go to get trained.

If nothing else, DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK FOR POLICE PRESENCE when you are at the barn alone. Call them and tell them when you will be there, and ask if they will come by at that time to check on you. Unless it is a very small PD, they should be able to accommodate this request.

Personally, if I were the barn owner and I knew I had boarders out there alone, I would hire an armed security guard to be on the property as needed until the perp is caught.

While I can't share everything I've learned in self-defense class, there are a few things I can pass along:

1.) DO NOT BE A VICTIM! Believe that you have the power to control your fate, and do not mentally give that power to anyone else.

2.) DO NOT PLAY FAIR! If someone attacks you, do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you can to get away.

3.) BE AWARE of your environment. Use, and LISTEN TO, all of your senses...including that 6th "I'm-not-safe" sense.

4.) Your first and best option is ALWAYS a "tactical retreat." If you can run away, DO IT!

5.) Remember that you have an arsenal of "personal weapons" that are with you all the time: head, teeth, fists, nails, elbows, knees, feet.

6.) Joints are particularly vulnerable. If you can bend an attacker's joint in a direction it's not supposed to go, by hitting, kicking, twisting, pushing, or pulling, DO IT. If someone grabs you (gives you their hand, basically), twist that wrist as hard as you can, or bend the hand backwards. When you kick someone in the knee, try to kick THROUGH it, not at it. Kick with the ball of your foot, not the toe. It only takes a 6-lb. impact to break a knee, so a hard kick there is especially devastating.

7.) If someone pins you to a wall, use your thumb and poke them HARD just below the Adam's apple. This hurts like heck and will back them off enough so you can get in a few good kicks.

That's about all I can share without being able to demonstrate or draw pictures. ;) One thing our instructor really emphasizes is that you must BELIEVE you will survive an attack. If you think you will be hurt/killed, or that you won't be able to defend yourself, that's probably what will happen. Instead of thinking like a victim, mentally give yourself the power to get away/fight back/survive. :yes:

GOOD LUCK and BE SAFE!

gdolapp

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:16 AM

If anyone carries pepper spray with them while on a horse for protection
please please DO NOT USE IT around horses. the over spray can
get into your horses eyes making a bad situation even worse. We can
wipe our eyes a horse can't.

also a good thing to remember that I don't believe was mentioned is
if ever attatcked look at the persons feet WHAT SHOES ARE THEY WEARING
gym shoes boots ect REMEMBER THEIR SHOES
an attacker or robber will carry an xtra set of clothes with them discard
the clothes they were wearing but for some reason forget to change their
shoes.
I have been threw a bank robbery please remember their shoes it can help
in an ID. any tattoos, scars, if you notice them make a mental note of them.
gloves is another big thing did the person have gloves on or not?
This can help in an ID also.

Jaegermonster

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:38 AM

Use your head, literally. If you do get grabbed and end up up close and personal with this whacko, remember that your head is very heavy and most likely will be right under his chin. Use it. Head butt him, smack him under the jaw as hard as you can. It may not kill him but it will make him turn loose of you long enough you can run like hell. You can break his nose too if you get him right.
Never get in a car or let them take you somewhere on foot either. If you go with them somewhere else, there goes the crime scene and you're done. Make them do whatever they are gonna do right there where you are.
As some others posted, you have to have a plan. Just like a course walk. Play scenarios in your mind, "if I'm in the tackroom and he walks in, I will grab ..... or do ....." and so on.

Be aware and have a plan.

It is also very very easy to pull out a human eye.
It is equally easy to remove a human ear. With your hands or teeth.
It is also very easy to rip open a jugular vein/carotid artery with your teeth, which most women can reach when being held by an average sized man, especially if you pretend like you like him to get him to drop his guard.

I am female, 5'6" and about 155 pounds, not fat but from good European stock. I have also been a street cop for 16 years, mostly on the midnight shift in the ghetto of ghettos and I have whipped more than my share of a$$, mostly of some very not nice men that were a lot of bigger than me. So I know the things I have posted work. You will do it if you want to live badly enough.

As far as pepper spray, it does not affect the horses, due to the way their tear ducts are. That is why they are so effective for riot control where we fire in the gas grenades. The horses could care less.

Remember it is not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog.

TripleRipple

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:51 AM

I absolutely trust my gut instinct - it sounds off, and I act accordingly and instantly. No matter how dumb, rude or wierd I may appear to someone else. My gut has done its job and taken me out of or helped me avoid danger on so very many occasions. Has told me to avoid, or run, or hide, or otherwise get the hell out of there. When my instincts "alert", I listen and act first and ask questions later - every time.

As backup, I have had a concealed weapon carry permit for over 20 years. Because of my gut instincts, I have not yet had to fire it in self defense. I hope to keep it that way; however, I practice regularly, and do the mental exercise necessary to be perfectly okay with using it should the need ever arise. If you would be willing to practice and be mentally aware of the responsibility a firearm requires, go for it. The gun is a good thing to have when all your other means of avoiding death or injury have proven futile - it will give you one last chance to avoid dying yourself. Nothing wrong with that program. Again though - the first line of defense is your instincts.

Self defense courses - I have not done so. I would like to - I think it would be a good idea for you also. There are many ways to inflict maximum damage despite size differences.

I hope they catch him - and regardless, you do everything you can to stay safe, unharmed, and alive. And posting under an alter was very smart - you do not know who this person is, you do not know anything about them, their interests nor do you ever need to find out what a small world it is on the big old internet. It is what I would have done too. This is a real situation, with a real sicko, doing real time harm - keep thinking smart.

P.S. And keep re-reading what King's Ransom posted. Exactly so.

ETA: And I just read jaegermonster's post - absolutely second all that, esp. the handy body parts tip sheet. This sicko freak is in your neighborhood, and is playing for keeps - you be ready to do the same.

GWF

Nov. 21, 2006, 03:47 AM

What a disturbing topic! :no:
Looks like there has been some really good advice! I would try to take a friend with you or meet a fellow barnmate there! I would imagine there is someone else at your barn that is also nervous about going to ride alone.
Carry pepper spray!
I would get a dog too. My dog Pippen (lab/gold retriever cross from the pound) goes EVERYWHERE with me!!! He is the most gentle, sweetest thing on the planet but he knows when something is wrong. He has a mean bark and can be VERY aggressive. I have trained him to attack on command. I asked a couple (very sorry) guy friends to come at me in an aggressive manor to see if Pippen would do anything. When I told Pippen to 'attack' he did! I travel a ton for horse shows and now I can sleep with both eyes closed knowing that Pippen is there!!!! :)

Sorry... I got a little off topic! I hope they catch that worthless piece of crap. :mad: My prayers go out to the poor families who have fallen victim to this monster! :cry:

Mozart

Nov. 21, 2006, 10:50 AM

I think there has been lots of good advice posted here for general use, but I truly think that if there is a serial rapist/murderer operating as close as 1.5 miles from you, going to the barn by yourself is just not worth the risk right now. We are not talking about theoretical risk, we are talking about factual risk.

If numbers of victims is getting up there, he is getting bolder. He will get caught sooner rather than later. I think you have to value your life more than missing a ride or two.

I am not advocating staying inside with the doors locked but I think you really need to employ the buddy system right now. Surely there are other people at your barn that are worried too? Arrange to go there in groups of two or three and take a vocal and alert dog with you.

Please keep yourself safe.

ChampionMercedes

Nov. 21, 2006, 11:22 AM

I will also second those that reccomend taking a self defense class. This semester I took a RAD (Rape Agression Defense) class through my school and I have learned so much. At the beginning I was so shy and I hated being agressive and loud (our teacher is very tough) but I have definately gotten used to it. Act confident, know your body and your strengths. You have an advantage because you know your surroundings very well. My boyfriend is much stronger than me (state champion linebacker) and using some of the techniques I have learned in this class I can easily take him down in just a few short seconds.

Keep your cell phone on and call to check in with your husband frequently. When I'm at the barn by myself I call my BF every 45 mins to tell him everything is fine. I also call before my ride and after. He knows how long I'll be riding and if I don't call appx. when I should be done he'll call me and if I don't answer he knows to either come to the barn (it's only a 5 minute drive) or call the police/ambulance.

Good luck! I hope they catch this creep.

DocNDabby

Nov. 21, 2006, 11:55 AM

All the posters here have wonderful advice...not much to add except these things which were taught to me by two people (my girlfriend who was a deputy sheriff for over 15 yrs, and my Kung Fu sifu) AND my own terrifying experience:

NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE (barn, the parking lot of your grocery store, the mall, the bank, whatever)...Start being AWARE of your surroundings and keep your head on a swivel at all times. It's important to NOT just think this has a chance to happen there at the barn. In my opinion, this is just something women SHOULD do...many attacks happen because your mind is focused on something and you aren't watching what's going on around you.

I am NOT saying you should live in fear! BUT, it is a fact that bad men prey on women (it's RARELY the other way round) and women ARE physically vulnerable...just a fact of life,unfortunately. Ask any cop.

You should carry something you can use for defense that isn't totally obvious so that you DO have some kind of chance to surprise the bad guy...if you are ok with it, the pocket knife is a good idea, but LEARN HOW TO USE A KNIFE. It can do you some serious harm if you have no clue how to properly wield a knife.

I live in the boonies and I NEVER go out my door unarmed...EVER. There is always a knife in my pocket at the very least. I watch my surroundings...I watch my horses, too... if their heads come up or they start to stare in a certain direction (especially if they ALL do so) then I watch very carefully, too. Other animals are also good for clues.

Be aware of what you have AROUND you to use for protection...just about anything can be used for a weapon if you are thinking about that. Mucking forks, shovels, buckets,fly spray into the eyes,etc...be creative. Using your keys inside your hand made as a fist with the keys poking through your fingers is a great weapon...and go for his EYES if you can, especially the face area...if you strike well, he'll drop back and you can RUN.

SCREAM very loudly, YELL alot if anyone unsavory approaches you or comes close and you are scared OR attacks you. Some bad guys will run off. Cops have told me that if you have the presence of mind to do it, yelling FIRE! is the best...always gets people's attention. Strangely enough, yelling HELP! may not. (I don't get that, but whatever...apparently it's they way it is?).

NEVER NEVER NEVER get into a car with anyone if you can POSSIBLY help it--- fight for your life BEFORE that. Cops will tell you that the odds of surviving a car abduction are almost nil.

Use your nails, your teech, kick, do ANYTHING you can to get free. Feel free to have the intent to kill the perpetrator. (This worked for me when I was attacked many years ago...I went ape-$hit and attacked HIM and nearly killed him...he was 6'4" and I'm 5'2"...but I literally climbed up him and used teeth and nails and knees and caught HIM by surprise...he wasn't expecting a wild woman who didn't think twice about biting his carotid).

Carry your cell phone ON you with 911 on speed dial. Make sure someone knows you are away from home, or at least leave a note on your kitchen table saying where you are going and when and when you think you might be back. GOD forbid the police have to search your home at any point, but if you do that it gives them SOMETHING to go on.

Take a BIG flashlight (preferably one of those "security" types with a pepper spray button and/or police baton inside it) with you when you go out at night (or even in the daytime...good weapon).

One other thing that's small, but sometimes works...carry along a small AM radio when you go to the barn...put it on some kind of talk show...not too loud, but loud enough that voices are heard. At first, the bad guy might mistake the voices for others being there; if he does discern it's a radio show, he still might wonder because it may mean there are more folks there and he's not into attacking anything but LONE women.

Of course, the best and first thing is one you've already done: YOU ARE THINKING AHEAD about this thing!! And, NO you are NOT nuts to be worried...I cringe every time I see gals running down the street and doing their jogging with Ipods and their ears plugged into them...SO easy to pick them off. They are not hearing things and not aware of their surroundings...very bad idea. This is NOT a matter of you being a silly ol' lady or wimpy girl...this is as REAL as it gets and you SHOULD be concerned and thinking ahead. Always.

I know some of this advice is rough sounding and perhaps you may think I sound paranoid myself, but as the survivor of an extremely deadly attack in broad daylight at 9:15 in the MORNING on a major street as I walked to my 25 story office building, I cannot stress how SERIOUSLY you should take your safety!

Just THINK AHEAD, be aware of your surroundings, listen to your animals (horse, dog, whatever...they will help clue you in) and be prepared to FIGHT with whatever you have at the time and NEVER be hesitant to do so.

End of rant. :cool:

SandyUHC

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:09 PM

I'm with Mozart. It is sad to have to change your habits because of a psycho but that guy is too close to you for you to risk being alone.

I think we get complacent because we think of the barn as a safe haven. My friends and I always parked on a rural gravel road to tack up and head out, sometimes together, sometimes alone. One night a guy pretended to have car trouble to get close to one of my friends. Luckily someone else happened along and his car was miraculously cured.

We never thought about safety before, and a few nights later when a strange car pulled up all we could come up with was a 2 inch Buck knife. It turned out to be an old friend visiting, and we joked about what a bad scratch we were planning to give the "bad guy". My point is, even when we are aware that danger might be around we persist in believing in our refuge. Don't be complacent -- change your routine and have a thought out plan to protect yourself. Meanwhile, I hope that guy gets taken out of action very very soon.

To the MAX

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:17 PM

To whoever said they trained their dog to attack: How exactly do you do that?

Kementari

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:24 PM

Do NOT carry a weapon unless you are 100% sure that you could and would use it not just to threaten, but to actually kill someone else. I don't mean, "Well, if someone is attacking me instinct and adrenaline will take over and I'll be able to do whatever I need to to get away." I mean you need to be able to sit there right now and imagine yourself blowing someone's brains out, and you need to have the training to be able to make the shot. Because if you hesitate even one second, that can be all it takes for an attacker to take your weapon and use it against you.

Statistically, far more gun owners are injured by intruders using their own guns against them than ever injure an intruder with said gun. I don't know statistics on knives, etc, but the same principle applies. If you have it, you MUST know how to use it lethally, and be willing to do so.

gieriscm

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:45 PM

Statistically, far more gun owners are injured by intruders using their own guns against them than ever injure an intruder with said gun. I don't know statistics on knives, etc, but the same principle applies. If you have it, you MUST know how to use it lethally, and be willing to do so.

Got to dispell this myth... according to the FBI, a victim who uses a gun to resist an attacker has it taken by the attacker only one time in 1000.

In the OP's case getting a concealed weapons permit may not be an option (due to her location, they're not available everywhere) or she may not be able to get one for several months (most states have minimal training requirements, background checks, etc. and all that takes time). In the meantime using the buddy system for barn visits, along with keeping a heightened awareness everywhere else, may be all she can do for now. At least at the barn there are many "improvised" weapons (pitchforks, shovels, etc) available if it comes down to that.

Two points against carrying a knife for self-defense: 1) in a knife fight both parties usually end up getting cut, and 2) learning to defend yourself effectively with a knife is a lot more difficult than learning to use a firearm effectively (or so claims my husband, who took Kendo/Kenjitsu for years).

Jennifer Alcott

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:47 PM

...King is a horse. And horses, like women, are animals of prey.

While I thought this column was well-written, interesting, informative, and made some good points, I am disturbed by the above statement.

I am a woman, and I am NOBODY'S prey.

In fact, I have used the predator/prey analogy in regards to people in conversations with several of my friends. But I don't think that gender is the only factor that defines whether we're "prey" or "predator".

Making a blanket statement that "women are prey" merely feeds into the sexist fallacy that men are strong and women are weak; that men are the predators and women are the prey.

DON'T be an "animal of prey"! It is a proven fact that an air of confidence (the attitude of a predator) can deter many attacks. Predators generally victimize those who appear to be weak. Don't appear weak--act strong, act confident, be prepared for the worst, keep your eyes and ears open, and use your sixth sense!

That doesn't make you an animal of prey, it means you're SMART.

Jennifer Alcott

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:49 PM

Statistically, far more gun owners are injured by intruders using their own guns against them than ever injure an intruder with said gun.

Please provide a factual source for this statement.

DocNDabby

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:53 PM

DON'T be an "animal of prey"!

THIS was the EXACT point of my post, too.

stegall

Nov. 21, 2006, 12:56 PM

You should consider contacting AWARE: Arming woman against rape and endangerment. www.aware.org

I have seen articles about their classes, and they seem to do an excellent job. By the way, they look at more than just the gun ownership aspect, but rather look at the entire picture of self defense for women. It was founded by a woman who was a victim, and decided to do something about what happened to her.

It also should be noted that you should not be fooled into believing you are safe just because it is daylight. rapes/murders can and do happen in broad daylight.

And, I agree that you should not just buy a gun and not be trained-whatever defense mechanism you choose-be properly trained in its utilization.
However, I have to disagree with Kementari on the statistic on being killed by your own handgun. This is from the Gun Owners Foundation fact sheet 2004:

>>* A study claiming "guns are three times more likely to kill you than help you" is a total fraud. Even using the low figures from the Clinton Justice Department, firearms are used almost 50 times more often to save life than to take life.15 More importantly, however, the figure claiming one is three times more likely to be killed by one’s own gun is a total lie:
* Researcher Don Kates reveals that all available data now indicates that the "home gun homicide victims [in the flawed study] were killed using guns not kept in the victim's home."16
* In other words, the victims were NOT murdered with their own guns! They were killed "by intruders who brought their own guns to the victim's household."17 <<
Not to change the subject, but just wanted to speak my peace on that issue.

I strongly believe that all "people" here should take measures to educate themselves about self defense (not specifically guns-but defense in general).
I say people because men can just as easily become victims too. Also, do not rule out using multiple tactics. Many good suggestions have been made here--use all of them: buy a cell phone, take a self defense course, buy some pepper spray etc.

You should always do your best not to be a victim, and getting educated is the foundation. This applies especially to horse owners due to the fact that we are often at the barn alone, travelling to unfamiliar places to attend shows, and ride out on trails away from civilzation.

Just my two cents.

And-I make a bad victim. If I don't have a weapon when atacked, I will use whatever means and resources necessary to counter attack my aggressor. You may win--but I will make you pay dearly. >:<

DocNDabby

Nov. 21, 2006, 01:02 PM

It also should be noted that you should not be fooled into believing you are safe just because it is daylight. rapes/murders can and do happen in broad daylight....
And-I make a bad victim. If I don't have a weapon when atacked, I will use whatever means and resources necessary to counter attack my aggressor. You may win--but I will make you pay dearly. >:<

AGAIN, my point exactly...that's why I gave you the outline of my own story and what I did. I made a BAD VICTIM...that's a great term! And, he did pay...I nearly killed HIM and he ended up in jail for life to boot.

Remember what Stegall said: attacks happen in the daytime, too...as I said, mine was at 9:00 AM on a major street in the center of town.

Be aware ANYPLACE ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

King's Ransom

Nov. 21, 2006, 01:04 PM

I agree the statement that women are animals of prey seems too strong ... however, IN THIS CASE, it is true. This guys is a predator, and YOU are the prey. Learn how to act -- and RE-act -- like someone is trying to prey upon you, because they ARE.

Not meant to be sexist or to feed into the idea of women as weaker ... horses are not weaker (by any means!) but they know that there are others out there who will prey upon them, and that changes the way they behave.

Kementari

Nov. 21, 2006, 01:18 PM

Jude

Nov. 21, 2006, 01:26 PM

I agree, KR - prey does not necessarily mean weaker, it means hunted. And right now, she's being (or at least feeling very much) like she's hunted.

I am anti-gun, but I'm a hiker and rider, so I almost always have a Swiss Army knife in my pocket. Once, my spouse and I were out hiking together on a pretty remote trail in Oregon. It was just a day hike, so we didn't have gear with us. The trail was very slick with ice, and we were fighting to maintain our balance. We came around a corner, and started hearing a very regular, awfully human-sounding whistle. We now both believe that it was almost certainly a bird, but at the time, I wasn't taking any chances.

Here's the thing about a Swiss Army knife - you never have to get out a blade to do damage. In fact, you can have much more control of the knife by NOT getting out the blade and holding it the "standard" way.

Use the corkscrew/screwdriver.

Put the red part of the knife in your fist, with the corkscrew or screwdriver between your middle and ring fingers. This way, you have a strong fist instead of a relatively weak grip. Plus, there is no blade to slash you, but there is a nasty end to get your attacker, which will take him some moments to manage if he does get the knife away from you. Even the screwdriver, as blunt as it is, will do some MAJOR damage with one or two punches. The best part is that I was able to hold the knife like this for an hour and a half while hiking out, and it was barely visible and was certainly not difficult for me to hang on to. I didn't have to worry about cutting myself by leaving the blade open or not having enough time to get the blade open if I left it closed.

The best advice I heard, and saw it again here, was to make a mess. Throw up, defecate, urinate, say you have your period, whatever. Bodily fluids are disgusting, and will often outright deter or at least slow down an attacker.

Also, ALWAYS yell "fire," not "help" or "rape." Fires are cool and roadkill-attraction - people want to come see the nifty fire and see if they and their wo/manly selves can help out, and maybe even get interviewed on the local news. Rapes, however, are nasty and have victims and someone is getting hurt - not cool at all and To Be Avoided. Go with human instinct and use the attraction of fires to your advantage.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 21, 2006, 01:53 PM

I know some of this advice is rough sounding and perhaps you may think I sound paranoid myself, but as the survivor of an extremely deadly attack in broad daylight at 9:15 in the MORNING on a major street as I walked to my 25 story office building, I cannot stress how SERIOUSLY you should take your safety!

So sorry to hear you were attacked. I just cannot imagine how scary it must be. Sounds like you gave the guy a serious run for his money and I am glad you made it out okay!

I appreciate EVERYONE'S advice and feedback, and for all the links and information provided. We in our neighborhood are taking this very seriously because it is happening in broad daylight, repeatedly, and these are very brutal attacks... the most recent 3 ending in death. The guy is so meticulous they think he has medical/military background. They also said he's probably pretty "normal" and could be your next door neighbor. Nice thought.

Whoever said we think of the barn as a "safe haven," that is SO true. I think that is why I kind of surprised myself by being nervous when I am out there alone. It's always been my refuge but with this stuff going on just down the road I suddenly realized how vulnerable myself or other women out there could be.

I think there is so much great advice on this thread and I hope it inspires other women out there to think about their personal safety. I know we all think we are tough as nails but there are some pretty messed up people out there.

Shodan VIII

Nov. 21, 2006, 02:12 PM

You might want to check out some self defense books in the public library. One of them I checked has an ENTIRE chapter on improvised/situational weapons. If you are mounted DO NOT kick, your attacker can push you off. Use your horse as a shield. I have heard of using a dressage whip and aiming for the face.

I'm a guy but with more of a feminine frame. But if I am attacked, I WILL not hesitate to bite (I have sharp teeth and I like to chew on things (especially bones and I can crack small bones and nuts with my teeth) and I can turn pretty much anything into a weapon (bleach, flyspray, whip).

redponyrider

Nov. 21, 2006, 02:13 PM

"To whoever said they trained their dog to attack: How exactly do you do that?"

I really wouldn't recommend doing this. Dogs who are professionally trained for protection work are specially bred for the work, are carefully selected for a sound temperament, and are extensively obedience trained before being taught attack work, and are very safe. Dogs who are inexpertly trained "to attack" are extremely dangerous to you, your friends, and your family, liek carrying a loaded gun around with the safety off. The value of dogs lie in their sharp senses and their ability to sound the alarm, not their ability to kill the bad guy. Given the choice, bad guys select non-dog-owners to attack.

You can safely train your dog to "sound the alarm" if he doesn't already-- get a friend who is a stranger to the dog to hide in the bushes or otherwise act "weird" and when your dog barks, praise him.

And listen to your dog and horse-- I have friendly dogs and a friendly horse, and on those few occasions they've acted spooked about a stranger, we got out of there immediately.

Mozart

Nov. 21, 2006, 02:24 PM

Okay, while there has been some excellent GENERAL advice on this thread, I can't help thinking, there is a known serial rapist/killer in your neighbourhood, as close as 1.5 miles away...and you would even think about going to the barn alone!!!!!

While I am not advocating staying indoors 24/7 and locking the doors, surely your life is more important than a few missed rides. It sounds from your description that this perp is getting bolder. He will be caught sooner rather than later. You don't want that to be...with his hands around your neck...or otherwise....This would be a time for the buddy system, surely there are other people at your barn that can team up and go out in two or threes? Surely you can miss a ride or two until he is apprehended?

Please be very careful and don't take any unnecessary risks.

Jennifer Alcott

Nov. 21, 2006, 03:01 PM

I am not going to bother to take the time to look up the actual study, because those who don't want to believe it wouldn't if it were written by God himself. :lol:

How do you know? That's a mighty big presumption.

And how do you expect to persuade someone of something if you're not willing to cite factual sources?

The fact that you won't "bother to take the time to look up the actual study" to back up your words is rather condescending--and lazy, actually. If you're going to cite specific statistics, you have a better chance of sounding credible if you at least post the source.

That said, I DO completely agree with you that one should not arm themselves unless they are prepared to kill someone who is a threat to them. That's one of the standard principles taught in many basic pistol safety courses.

LisaW-B

Nov. 21, 2006, 03:19 PM

I don't think anyone else has asked, but what is your barn owner doing to take steps to help protect his/her clients or make you all feel slightly more safe? There needs to be a barn meeting about this. There needs to be a buddy system set-up so that no one is ever at the barn alone. Your barn owner needs to *do* something even if it is only to post signs all around the property about surveillance and install some "fake" sureveillance cameras around the barn, as well as talk to all of you about your concerns and how you can all work to look after each other, and see if the local police can start an evening patrol through the barnyard, or if you have a local sherriff's posse or other group willing to step in. If the police have sketches of the evil bastard, I would plaster the ranch with those, too. I hope they do catch the bastard before he strikes again.

DocNDabby

Nov. 21, 2006, 03:51 PM

King's Ransom

Nov. 21, 2006, 04:29 PM

Another excellent read is The Gift of Fear (can't remember the author, but you can get it on Amazon).

And, if you don't think this kind of violence is gender-specific, read the book. I remember one comment from the author (who is an expert in the field) that went something like this:

Do you know what men's #1 fear is from women? That they will make fun of them.

Do you know what women's #1 fear is from men? That they will kill them.

So, the author says, enough with calling me a sexist.

dizzywriter

Nov. 21, 2006, 04:38 PM

All the advice here is good. But I don't recommend a firearm unless you know how to use one and know how to fight off an attacker trying to pry it off you. If you don't have time for a self-defense course, try something I used (but never had to actually exercize) when living in a dangerous neighborhood.

Keep your keys, preferably many., in a handy pocket at all times when its dark. If anything even remotely threatening happens or sounds, place one key between each of your fingers so that they all stick out. If someone tries anything, punch them with your key/fist weapon. If you aren't a punching type, the sense of security knowing that you have this in your pocket may make you look like less of an easy target.

But as someone who was brutally attacked last year, by some guy waiting outside my door, I will say this: Us riding women have incredibly strong legs and arms (forget the jelly belly). With our adrenalin rush of fighting to survive, these wusses can't compete. I literally pissed my pants, but fought off this guy who was trying to kill me with a brick.

Survival ain't pretty, but it's lovely.

MSP

Nov. 21, 2006, 05:24 PM

Forget the dog; unless they are attack trained they are useless most of the time. Forget a gun unless you want to put in time at a range practicing with it. In a struggle or rush you will most likely not react quickly enough and you don’t need to be fumbling with a safety while being attacked.

Self defense classes are excellent, I have taken one and although I am rusty I learned how to become less of a target. I carried a Kubaton (http://www.defensedevices.com/kubaton.html) around for some time but I soon forgot how to use it so I switched to pepper spray. Pepper spray is easy to use, doesn’t need practice and you can keep a distance from your attacker.

A friend of mine was raped and murdered in her own home after the killer followed her from work. Don’t just be on guard at the barn, be on guard every where including home. She had a dog; her attacker locked the dog in a room. I would not go to the barn alone, why don’t you talk to other boarders and try to coordinate your trips to the barn so no one is alone.

Be safe!

In memory of Kimberly S. Goss who was brutally raped and murdered at her home in Londonderry NH On September 12, 1989. :cry:

Aggie4Bar

Nov. 21, 2006, 06:02 PM

I've not seen mention yet of the crime triangle, which states that there are three elements in every crime: Target, Desire, and Opportunity.

You, as a potential target, cannot change a rapists desire to commit rape. There is also not much you can do to prevent yourself from being a target either beyond making yourself appear too combative to be worth the effort. (Most rapists do not want a victim who fights.) You can, however, remove the opportunity through smart decisions. Certainly if there was a rapist prowling the area where I board, I would not be inclined to go to the barn alone or place myself in a situation wherein I was the only person on the property. Given that it may be impossible to avoid going alone and/or being alone, several posters have provided good advice regarding self-defence.

I have to say, I find it laughable that someone would be "offended" by the suggestion they may be viewed as prey. You can be the toughest individual on the planet from a mental standpoint, far tougher than your male counterparts even, but with the exception of few individuals, women are physically weaker than men. It is extremely foolish to assume you can become engaged in a physical fight and win. This is why it's important to break the triangle by being aware of your surroundings and eliminating the opportunity for the crime to occur. Although they prepare you for physical conflict (the worst-case scenario), all self-defence instructors will tell you to run. If it becomes physical, fight like hell to get away, and run as soon as you can.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 21, 2006, 07:05 PM

The fact that there is some thought that this guy is medical or military SHOULD SCARE YOU TOTALLY...whether he IS or not isn't the point...that description means this bad guy is a TOTAL psychopath.

What he is doing is pre-meditated and he IS HUNTING and thinking and planning. This is one scary bad dude.

I agree with the poster who asked about having a buddy system at your barn...AND, yes, is the BO/BM doing anything to help you guys there at the barn due to this?

For consideration of everyone: if you can get a chance to read a book called, "The Sociopath Next Door" you SHOULD. Helps you to understand what some of these folks are about and what to do for yourself...and YES, often they can seem totally normal. Here in Arizona they just caught a serial killer who killed 14 women in the Valley area...he looks like the nicest guy! And, remember Ted Bundy! Be ready and aware.

Yeah this is all very premeditated. The guy has spots staked out, attacks the women from behind in a manner than renders them unconcious, and then drags them to a near by area where he has "supplies" laid out. Very, very scary.

I did notice while at the barn last night that one of the scarier barn dogs was running loose. He is a biter but as long as you stay out of his way he's ok. Approach him or threaten him and he'll go a bit nuts on you.

The BO is making an effort to make sure someone is at the property at ALL times when the barn is open. I know other boarders are making a point to get out there during daylight hours.

There was a brainstorming session at the town hall a few nights ago on how to make recreational areas safer and what the community in general can do, but basically the cops said all you can do is try and prevent yourself from being a target... basically go out in groups of 3 or more.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 21, 2006, 07:06 PM

A friend of mine was raped and murdered in her own home after the killer followed her from work. Don’t just be on guard at the barn, be on guard every where including home. She had a dog; her attacker locked the dog in a room. I would not go to the barn alone, why don’t you talk to other boarders and try to coordinate your trips to the barn so no one is alone.

Be safe!

In memory of Kimberly S. Goss who was brutally raped and murdered at her home in Londonderry NH On September 12, 1989. :cry:

So sad about your friend MSP. :(

Kementari

Nov. 21, 2006, 08:52 PM

How do you know? That's a mighty big presumption.

And how do you expect to persuade someone of something if you're not willing to cite factual sources?

The fact that you won't "bother to take the time to look up the actual study" to back up your words is rather condescending--and lazy, actually. If you're going to cite specific statistics, you have a better chance of sounding credible if you at least post the source.

That said, I DO completely agree with you that one should not arm themselves unless they are prepared to kill someone who is a threat to them. That's one of the standard principles taught in many basic pistol safety courses.

Let's just say that no one has proven my statement wrong yet. I have looked up the citation in the past, and no one who disbelieved it to begin with has EVER believed it when presented with the research. So no, I'm not going to spend the time again just so that everyone who doesn't like the idea can choose not to believe it again. :rolleyes:

And, since we agree on the point that was being made in THIS context, it hardly matters anyway! :yes:

Tiempo

Nov. 21, 2006, 08:58 PM

Please don't go out alone until this monster is caught,that is just too close to you and it's not worth it.

Tiempo

Nov. 21, 2006, 09:01 PM

Jude

Nov. 21, 2006, 09:06 PM

Another thing I learned, though not necessarily applicable in this situation, is to turn and STARE at an attacker. Particularly if you are out running or riding or just walking to your car and think someone is following you, turn and look them in the eye, then look them up and down. Freaks the heck out of them, because people rarely do this. Plus, you can a) better identify them to the police, and b) let them know that you can identify them to the police. If it is some innocent person, sure, they may be offended or even worried themselves, but this is a small price to pay for warding off a bad guy. Yet another way to make yourself less of a target.

Also, I know a lot of women worry about looking good when working out, but wear clothes that hide your feminity. When in high school, I rarely went without a t-shirt or sweatshirt or bulky jacket, and my girls aren't so large, so I looked like a boy from a distance. I *know* it stopped guys from harassing me (they were harassing me enough in school). For running, invest in some of those long basketball shorts or track pants and a hoodie or t-shirt with cutoff sleeves. Put on a baseball cap backwards or sideways. Yeah, you may feel super weird and get some strange looks, but from a distance you'll be much less of a target.

Flipper K.

Nov. 21, 2006, 09:06 PM

MSP, so sorry for your friend.

This thread has prompted me to look into self defense classes offered in our area -- work has a program that will reimburse if I get enough co-workers (male or female) to partake.

It could save a life!

-- Flip

PS - My husband laughs that I have my car set to only unlock the driver's side with auto unlock, I lock all doors as soon as I'm in, I don't "get settled" for the ride ahead in a parking lot.

At home, I look for strange cars in our condo parking lot, I look over my shoulder walking up my path to my townhouse, I lock the door behind me immediately.

Thanks all for reinforcing that these are self-protection measures, not paranoia.

Kementari

Nov. 21, 2006, 09:20 PM

PS - My husband laughs that I have my car set to only unlock the driver's side with auto unlock, I lock all doors as soon as I'm in, I don't "get settled" for the ride ahead in a parking lot.

We had a rental car this summer that not only unlocked ALL the doors when you pushed the little button, but also turned on the interior lights (& I think flashed the headlights). I couldn't think of any better way of saying, "Hey, wierdo, there's about to be someone walking up to this car!" :no: I don't know if there was a way to change that setting (since it was just a rental), but I never unlocked it until I was right beside it, and alone at night I chose to use the key instead of the electronic option, so I could unlock just the driver's side door. I felt a bit paranoid, but I'd rather feel paranoid than be attacked. :yes:

Appassionato

Nov. 21, 2006, 11:18 PM

Without going into a lot of detail, we have a serial rapist/murderer on the loose in our town. He has been linked to 10 attacks and 3 murders. The latest happend just 1.5 miles from our barn, in the middle of the day. He is meticulous and the police are baffled.

I often visit the barn at night, between 7pm and 9pm. It is usually empty by then, and it's in a pretty remote, dark area. I used to worry about riding alone and getting hurt and no one realizing. Now I am more worried about crazy strangers lurking out there, preying on unsuspecting women!

Let's face it, us horsewomen are pretty tough chicks, but still. Most of us probably spend a lot of time in remote places like trails or pastures and even a lot of barns can be pretty far removed from civilization. And I know at our barn, we occassionally get the odd stray person popping in either looking for directions, wanting the barn owners, having questions about lessons/boarding etc.

I have always tried to rely on gut instinct but lately gut instinct is throwing up red flags at the sight of any strange male!

Are any of you ever concerned for your personal saftey while at the barn? Is it something you have thought about? If so, what kind of actions have you taken to protect yourself?

Coming in late, sorry!

This scenario JUST happened a few months ago to me! A rapist was on the loose in my town, from another state, and was last seen about 100 feet from my horse's paddock! What did I do? Remember Ferris Bueller (sp?)? I was screaming, "I have a scortching case of Herpes!" as I wielded my pistol in one hand, and scooped feed out with the other. Hey, I might be a nut, but my body is intact. ;)

citydog

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:04 AM

HopefulEventer

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:17 AM

TBsRgr8

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:14 AM

This has been a very informational thread to read.

I was right outside a market downtown, sitting on one of their rocking 25 cent horses outside the store, waiting for my mom to pick me up, and a really creepy looking man came up from the sidewalk. He stood like five feet in front of me, and every couple of seconds he turned to look at me. Needless to say, I was creeped out. Luckily, my friends came out from the market like thirty seconds later, and I went to talk to them. They left, and I stood there, and he stood there. When my mom finally got there and I got in the car, he left. Creepy, huh?

If this kind of thing ever happens to you again, I would strongly recommend going back inside the store and asking one of the clerks if you can speak to the manager. TELL the manager there is a man outside their store that's creeping you out. It is likely that you are not the only person this (type of) dude is creeping out. I would hope that the manager takes you seriously, as someone like that scoping out the store's patrons could result in lost customers.... especially, if someone is attacked in their parking lot or behind the store. You should also be allowed to use their phone to call your mom to tell her you will be waiting inside the store if you don't have a cell phone. I know that my mom would come inside the store looking for me after a few minutes if I was supposed to meet her outside and was not there. I also know that she would not be angry with me for making the choice to come inside for my own safety. She'd be a ton more angry if I did make the stupid choice to stay in a bad/ uncomfortable situation.

You could have also asked your friends to stay with you until your mom got there. Real friends would have never let you stay standing there alone if they were aware of the situation. Again, if they had to go somewhere and you chose to go with them (and call your mom as soon as you can), your mom might be a little upset by the inconvenience but glad that you made a decision that could potentially have saved your life.

You were LUCKY-- this time.

Coup De Des

Nov. 22, 2006, 02:07 AM

I don't know if this has been posted cos I don't have time right now to read all these replies... But can I suggest going to this website

http://www.horsethink.com/

and on the left hand side is a SELF DEFENCE VIDEO CLIP.

DEFINATELY WATCH IT

Flipper K.

Nov. 22, 2006, 08:09 AM

I was screaming, "I have a scortching case of Herpes!" as I wielded my pistol in one hand, and scooped feed out with the other. Hey, I might be a nut, but my body is intact. ;)

App,

You just made me laugh so hard. Out loud. At work.

THANKS! :lol:

-- Flip

gdolapp

Nov. 22, 2006, 08:31 AM

Aggie4Bar

Nov. 22, 2006, 09:13 AM

MSP

Nov. 22, 2006, 10:04 AM

I again disagree with the use of pepper spray while around or on a horse
it may not affect they eyes but what happens when they breath it up their
noses? Most of the time isn't tear gas shot threw a gun into a crowd
so the over spray wouldn't be afactor for the horse or the rider but up close
near or off the back of a horse it will even if you get this stuff on your
skin it burns.

I think the odds of being attacked while riding are much less than being attacked while walking or being at the barn alone; you are an easier victim on the ground. So I don’t think it is very likely that a horse would be around during an attack. But, mounted police use Pepper Spray while riding so I don’t think it is a great concern. The Pepper Spray is a wet stream not a fine arosal, you need to hit the attacker in the face and eyes to be affective.

Have you ever seen or used Pepper spray? I have had Pepper spray attached to my key chain for years. It has a lever that slides from left to right and this must be in the center, then you must press down to release the spray. They don’t accidentally go off. When walking with my key chain I hold the Pepper spray that way it is ready to go. If I wanted to have it ready while at the barn it would be in my pocket or hung around my neck.

The only time the pepper spray would go off is if I was attacked. And, frankly if someone was about to take my life I don’t think I would be too worried about the horse getting sprayed.

JustJump

Nov. 22, 2006, 11:37 AM

Have the police @ your barn to observe and suggest what might be done to make the location a safer one.

There have been PAGES of suggestions (all good) but the most useful one is has been made very few times. Don't go to the barn alone, EVER. Even if you have to drag along your MIL (just searching for a far fetched combination, and that would be it here).

And I bet nothing would beat a pack of JRT's for an alarm system. Surely a JRT rescue league would welcome a use and the offer of a good home for some of the more anti-social ones that land on their doorstep!;)

To the MAX

Nov. 22, 2006, 11:51 AM

:yes: Exactly.

Oh, I wasn't asking because I'm planning on doing that. My 3 dogs are scary enough on their own, I don't think I need them to attack anyone! I was just asking out of curiousity. It seems like a very hard thing to teach a dog that is normally friendly and placid.

TripleRipple

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:39 PM

Coming in late, sorry!

This scenario JUST happened a few months ago to me! A rapist was on the loose in my town, from another state, and was last seen about 100 feet from my horse's paddock! What did I do? Remember Ferris Bueller (sp?)? I was screaming, "I have a scortching case of Herpes!" as I wielded my pistol in one hand, and scooped feed out with the other. Hey, I might be a nut, but my body is intact. ;)

Omg, that is funny - that is something I would do too, lol... And seriously, 100' from the paddock - that is really not good, huh?

All methods of self defense have huge holes in them. Guns - you must practice, and attain some level of skill (not that hard to do at all). Pepper spray - not likely to work on someone too drugged out, ie they can blow right through it (unless you get an exact hit in the eyes, to get some run away lead time). That or self defense moves - won't work on a meth head unless you really get the drop on the bastard.

Here is a link discussing such a recent incident in my state: http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2006/10/attack_at_bagby_hot_springs.php

This link shows a picture of the dude: http://www.kptv.com/fox12smostwanted/10077321/detail.html

I remember thinking, okay, a couple out for a nice hike to the hot springs, they have a means of escape with the car, one is a guy, vs. a meth head who is smashing windows with a bb bat. The attack was so vicious it broke bones and smashed the girl's thumb completely off, hospitalized both of them. I read the interview with the shell-shocked guy - they shouldn't be alive. The meth head felt no pain, and had been all over the state with his prego girlfriend - point being, they were probably driving through many people's neighborhoods. Someone capable of that kind of random violence. Right in the midst of the rest of us, some of whom can't even imagine how anyone could be capable of that in the first place.

Stuff like that, and this thread are good reminders. Watch where you are, don't assume life is like a Disney movies where all strangers probably have good hearts and there is always a happy ending around the corner. I don't live like a paranoid fool or always assume the absolute worst, but truly, if I don't know someone, I do not give my full measure of trust to a stranger (I may give some measure, if someone good vouches for them, and I don't get a single wierd ass vibe). I may be avoiding some happy situations and really cool people by drawing these lines, but really? I already know neat people, and they make me happy enough:) Heck, so do my animals. There are people who seem pretty normal to me that turn out to be creeps (back in the day, I had law enforcement buddies. omg, how we used to creep each other out with stories over cards on poker night). I could already be hanging with someone who is "normal" but really not. I wouldn't be the first human on the planet fooled.

I just enjoy being alive. Some situations aren't compatible with that - so I do all I can to reduce the likelihood. First line of defense - instinct. Instinct to leave a situation, common sense to avoid it in the first place, the will power to run when the hairs on your neck stand up, and no one else wants to run.

To the OP - I wouldn't go to the barn alone. My god, 1.5 miles. Dude is hunting in your territory.

TripleRipple

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:52 PM

I am not going to bother to take the time to look up the actual study, because those who don't want to believe it wouldn't if it were written by God himself. :lol:

I don't think, though, that there is much to argue with the statement that if you are armed you should prepared to use your weapon. If you aren't, and someone calls your bluff, you are going to be in even more trouble than you were to begin with. That's just common sense, folks. :yes:

Well, like others have said, that isn't a true statement. But that is just a red herring too.

I can agree that anyone who is too stupid to learn to use a weapon accurately will fall by the Darwinian wayside eventually. But that is also true in many many areas. I also find that people who have vehicle licenses but are too stupid to know good driving habits (like not when tired, not when drunk, not fast when icy, and on and on) fall down that same Darwin path. I would love to see this type of person, whether licensed for a gun or a vehicle, be stripped of said license. Esp. the driver's license, as that kills many more annually than the licensed gun owner.

I have had a concealed carry for over 20 years, and given my skill, there is no bluff to be called. That is how it should be and is for the majority of legal gun owners. But then again, I enjoy being competent and skilled at things. I don't think anyone would disagree that if a person doesn't wish to become skilled at something, they should not do it. Guns, horses, cars, they can all potentially kill you or others if you don't take it seriously. Lots of examples of that.

citydog

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:55 PM

Oh, I wasn't asking because I'm planning on doing that. My 3 dogs are scary enough on their own, I don't think I need them to attack anyone! I was just asking out of curiousity. It seems like a very hard thing to teach a dog that is normally friendly and placid.

Dogs trained for bitework basically look at it as an elaborate game of tug. They start playing tug with a little jute thing as pups, and then go on to more elaborate games of tug with either a sleeve or a full body bite suit. They are trained to bark and such to look fearsome, to bite when the decoy moves out of turn, etc. but it's all part of a game for those dogs. Very, very different from a hairtrigger, untrained, aggressive or fear aggressive dog.

Anyone can train a dog to bite, the difficult part is teaching him when *not* to. I (dog trainer) get a buttload of calls from folks wanting to train their family dogs as "attack dogs". 100% of the time these are folks who haven't even taught their dogs to sit stay or not jump up uninvited on guests. :no:

A dog who has a bond with his person (greatly fostered through a working relationship--do obedience, agility, herding, trick training or anything where you and your dog *work* as a *team*) will usually make *some* effort to defend his person.

Tiki

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:58 PM

Yeah this is all very premeditated. The guy has spots staked out, attacks the women from behind in a manner than renders them unconcious, and then drags them to a near by area where he has "supplies" laid out. OK, cops, sheriffs, self defence gurus, whatever, how in the name of God do you possibly defend yourself against being rendered unconscious from behind before you even know someone is there?????????????????

I have been in a potential victime position twice. Once a gang of, I would guess, 12-15 year old boys. I turned on them screaming 'knock it off, with my hands in a karate position when one of them grabbed me. He was so shocked he fell down and scrambled backwards for about 25 or 30 feet and it caused him compatriots to become completely unglued. All the other people around me - in broad daylight in a crowded area - just looked and started to move away.

Second time was in Germany at night. Three people approached me as I walked along a moderately dark sidewalk, 2 men and a woman. They tried to grab me and take my camera. I started shouting and making wild swings at them and they turned and ran away.

Would I count myself safe against another attack? No way, but I won't be a willing victim either.

My SIL's grandmother was approached by a kid with a good sized knife one day and he demanded money from her. She said, 'You call that a knife Sonny? I have a much bigger one here and I know how to use it.' She set her shopping bag down and started rummaging in it and the kid turned and ran.

Were we lucky?? Hell yes!!! Scream like hell, run if you can, fight for your life if you can't.

Anyone remember the 7 Chicago nurses who were taken, one at a time, into a second room and raped and killed??? If they had banded together, one or two of them might have been hurt, but the perp would have had a much harder time staying alive. Band together, fight for your lives, DON'T let anyone separate you, EVER. But how do you defend yourself against being grabbed from behind and rendered unconscious and bound up before you ever know the perp is there. That's were a dog can come in handy!!! Even if s/he just gives you a 2 second warning that some stranger is in the area - to keep you from being rendered unconscious before you even know he's there. In that case, 2 seconds can save your life.

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Nov. 22, 2006, 12:59 PM

Huntertwo

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:08 PM

True about guns. If you have one in the house you have to be prepared to use it as a deadly force. Not shooting an intruder in the leg or arm etc.

I keep a .38 very handy. And have gone over and over mentally in my mind what I have to do, from getting the key to the lock, unlocking it, cocking it, and firing.

Its certainly not something you want to ponder over in an emergency situation.

Huntertwo

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:15 PM

Another tip from an Oprah show. NEVER EVER get into a car and go to "the second crime scene". Even if they have a gun/knife fight and run. Chances are you may be cut, chances are they aren't going to fire a gun in public and if they do, chances are they are going to miss or hit a non-vital organ.

If they were going to rob you they would have at the first crime scene. If you end up at the "second crime scene", you'll most likely end up raped and or dead, because that was their intention.:no:

King's Ransom

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:15 PM

I think this thread has been a timely reminder for all of us to review our safety precautions. My take is that many of us are single women, and those who are married are often out alone in the barn or on the trails.

I know I said it before and I don't mean to be a broken record, I do feel so much that our horses are great guides for us here. They DO live their lives, and they do so many wonderfully bold and courageous, even awe-inspiring things. But they are SO AWARE of their surroundings and always ready to react to a threat. They have a pretty good (though sometimes frustrating to US) way of reacting first and checking it out later. We so often do the opposite, to our own danger. We think, check it out ... then respond. I am in the camp with so many others who say better to be embarrassed than dead. Of course, our horses are not even embarrassed, and they are right. They react, when they feel safe they may check it out, and if it was nothing, they are relieved, not ashamed. That's how we should be, too.

Taking precautions, being AWARE of your surroundings, and then following the advice of that wonderful little voice inside you (is it a sixth sense that we have worked so hard to suppress, but is still there?) are pretty good ways to stay safe.

And I don't think a good dog, a good self-defense course, and perhaps a good understanding of how to handle a gun would hurt either!

Huntertwo

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:19 PM

Anyone read "Final Truth," the autobiography of PeeWee Gaskins, SC's most prolific (pardon the irony) serial killer? I found it very informative on human predation from the predator's viewpoint.

That does sound like a very informative book I'd like to read. These predators DO have a way of *picking* their victims. Chances are they probably don't pick a person at random, but watch their body language etc. like a Lion who stalks prey. Picking out the weakest...

Thanks

Paintmisbehavin, I checked Amazon and there are two. One in 1992 and another from 1994. One was co-written with another Author and another only by the serial killer.
Do you know if these are the same?

nightsong

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:28 PM

Taking precautions, being AWARE of your surroundings, and then following the advice of that wonderful little voice inside you (is it a sixth sense that we have worked so hard to suppress, but is still there?)

I honestly think that "little voice" is angels talking to us. Really.

TripleRipple

Nov. 22, 2006, 01:53 PM

I wish DH had at least some sense of being prey, but he's clueless. He's given rides to a fifteen year old ne'er do well type (aw, honey, he's just a kid) and a couple who showed up at our door at 5:00 am claiming their car broke down, even though yes he has seen "Natural Born Killers." Naturally he was alone both times - had I been around neither incident would've happened.

I've tried telling him, but he just accuses me of having a negative outlook on life. Of course I do, I'm a lawyer and I get paid to anticipate what awful things might go wrong in the future, but that doesn't mean I'm not correct sometimes.:yes:

Anyway, if I were the OP I wouldn't be out alone again till they caught the guy or until there was evidence he'd moved on.

Anyone read "Final Truth," the autobiography of PeeWee Gaskins, SC's most prolific (pardon the irony) serial killer? I found it very informative on human predation from the predator's viewpoint.

Ha, ha, my dh does the same thing, right down to calling me negative. He does this much less after 30 years of me doing repeated "parades of horribles" for him, but old habits die hard...

DH was coming home from out of town last week and about to give a ride to the "roommate" of someone we did business with but don't know - a 4 hour ride. "Honey, don't worry, we will put his BACKPACK in the horse trailer". Backpack? Young kid? Moving to a new city, but has no boxes? Or car?? Job? Don't know ANY of these folks other than we just bought something from them that you are hauling back? I said, "sweetness, like, how will I know where he dumps your body and abandons the truck with our dog in it? There is no cell reception for MOST OF THAT DRIVE through the mountains, so if he dumps you on one of the forest service roads it might take awhile to locate you, YOU OLD FOOL!" No, he didn't give the kid a ride after we'd discussed things.

Worse? We are both lawyers (mostly retired now), and he isn't a sissy either. The only thing I can say is that his clients tended to be corporate and were much nicer people than some of my feisty ones, ha ha..... He is somewhat realistic, but at heart, while prepared for the worst, he would prefer to think people are mostly okay, or that if not, he can handle himself.

Thanks for the book reference, too.

Still Workingonit

Nov. 22, 2006, 02:14 PM

Sorry for the long post. THis is based on my own experience - I have been attacked 4 times (must be a magnet for nutters) and am still here unharmed and definitely not a "prey" species.

In all forms of defense you need to be able to use it, with no hesitation in all situations. Can you??? I can!

The first line of defense is not to act like a victim. Being a victim is the last impression you want to give out! Perfect the postivie shoulders back, walking really upright , meeting the world full on, haughty stare, etc. Act positive - it can stop people in general treating you as a loser/victim. Even if you are not normally this way, play act as if you were! Eventually, you will become so. Will it stop someone determined? Probably not, but it may make them back off and pick easier prey. It will deter the casual one

THe second line of defence is to let yourself get ANGRY!!! MAD! FURIOUS!!! Let that energy out. SCREAM! SCREAM! and, yes, SCREAM some more. Scream out a recipe for a good pot roast, it doesnt matter just scream! Forming words can often not be good - just inarticulate screaming seems to work!

This worked for the first attack - and that I had my handbag down on my hand swinging it around my head like a morningstar - with weights in it to make it more satisfactory - and looking like I was about to, I suppose, attack a castle!

Second, learn some form of self defence. Boxing (for 1) is a great form of self defense, great exercise and I have a wicked right hook. You get to practice against real people before it happens and a lot of it becomes instinctive with sufficient training. OKay and in a real life/death/injury section, you forget the Marquis of Queensberry's rules!!! A punch to the gut, the bulge of your head hitting them in the chin (or if you can do it a glaswegian kiss but this does take practice), bite anything you can get (tissue sample for later analysis!), kick the knee on the side (that is a great trick!!! Works really well), stomp on the feet , punch them hard on the kidneys, kick him in the groin (the end of the penis is best), grab the testicles and squeeze and turn, for example. Whatever you do do it HARD! With all your strength.

In the second attack, the nutter got in close and grabbed me. Besides the inarticulate screaming, punching, biting, kicking, grabbing and squeezing, punching etc saved me. (He was a rapist being hunted by our Police.) The Glaswegian Kiss was a beauty and knocked him cold. (And it was a fluke!) Being built for stamina and not speed didnt stop me using this as a great time for escape and get to our police with a tissue sample. The Police reckoned that he would have had difficulty chasing me as I had stamped a 5" stilleto heel through his boot and foot. I was angry, frightened and fighting for my life (as far as I was concerned and the our courts agreed with me).

IF YOU CAN learn to use a weapon - I really dont recommend a knife. As others have posted, this is a real difficulty in not being hurt here as well. A gun - IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO TAKE ANOTHER PERSON"S LIFE - would be a good idea if you are permitted in your state to carry one. Please note that people say "oh, I will just shoot to wound" - sorry, no! NOt without a lot of practice will you be able to do that! I did pig hunting and deer stalking through our native bush in my younger days (very rugged!) and I know how difficult - even with a lot of practice - it is to get just the right shot in even when you have a long time to set up the shot etc. IN the pressure situation that you would be under, you wont have time to set up the shot - and the perp will be moving towards you. (And, no, I have never used a firearm on another human. Besides our laws being quite rigid on the use of firearms in self defence, I could not act fast enough for them to be effective.)

After attack 2 above, Dad got me a 6' long 12 yr old aged hickory pickaxe handle - he was a coal miner. The local cop showed me where I could use it to avoid a prosecution for assault (necessary under our laws). I practised - as did a few of my friends - on a dummy. It was really funny after a few too mnay wines even if the retired cop was tryi$ng to get us to be serious and learn.

Well, I never thought that I would have to use this!! But I did. Attacker #3 came in to our flat when I was the only person at home (out of 6!). I heard the glass break, reached under my bed for the pickaxe handle, crept out of my room hiding in the shadows - heart racing, struggling to calm my breathing down to below audible to the whole street - and I saw him in the sitting room. He came at me with a knife - I was stunned for a few seconds but swung the handle out and down. With screaming, whacking etc, I did a fair degree of damage - to the walls, the floor, the perp's arm and legs .... and then one of the best forms of defence arrived! My neighbour's three dogs came through and circled him. ONe (Bob) took him down and stood on him until the neighbours/police arrived. NOne of these dogs liked men due to prior abuse.

And the final form of defence? When you are at your barn, you have a fight/flight animal. If any attacker comes at you - even someone you just dont like the look of - keep your horse between you and them. You must be prepared to abandon your horse next to your car if necessary or at least near an escape route.

And, yes, I have used horses this way. Two of them (I was lucky). The last was probably the saddest. A guy who had come off his meds and was just not on the same planet as we are. He kept following me around our barn and I just got nervous. Ended up walking out to the gate between my two old geldings - although they were younger then - and put one between me and him every time he tried to come around to me. Worked - especially as said ponies were able to be led on neck covers and I could get to the gate and out before he could get around them.

Be safe but not paranoid.

RunawayAlter

Nov. 22, 2006, 02:24 PM

Also,call the police,tell them how close you live to that last attack and ask for thier recomendations of how to best protect yourself.

They will know details of his patterns that have probably not been made public,and though they won't divulge them,they can best advise you on how to be safe.

This is a good idea, one I hadn't thought of. The cops do have more info than they are releasing.

Ironically, the sherrif's station is actually 2 blocks from my house, and the trooper's are about 3 miles away. The latest attack happened about 2 blocks east of the sherrif's station. The guy is bold.

They are bringing in America's Most Wanted to film a piece. Unsolved Mysteries covered the case in the 90's when the guy was at his peak. He's been dormant for about a decade but is out with a vengeance now. Initially we heard 10 cases but now I think it is up to 13 linked to him by method and DNA.

lvignerot

Nov. 22, 2006, 02:34 PM

I am taking Krav Maga- there is only one rule- Don't get hurt! I am now in the best shape of my life, can kick, hit, defend, attack, and I can do it with endurance and skill. I highly suggest it. The art is based on street fighting- there are no rules, no moves to remember, it is just cold hard fighting to win. I pity the fool who comes after me. His eyes will be gouged, his limbs detached, bones broken, and he will be bloody and unconcious. Even if he has a knife or gun, they have taught us how to dearm and defend without getting shot or knived. And as an added bonus, I lost 15lbs and I am a very buff chic with nothign but muscles.

As far as using your horse, he'res my story. I was 18 and we were goofing around the fairgrounds playing hide and seek with a couple of cute friends at a horse show. I ran into my horse's stall and hid. My friend came in and started tickling me and my horse got between him and I, shoved him into the corner and raised his rear leg with ears back with the "you will die if you move" expression. I was shocked! I quietly led Dell away and my friend slinked out after totally wanting to pee his pants. If someone comes after me, I fully expect my horse to sense I am in trouble and protect me. After seeing it firsthand, and as close as I am to my horses/golden retrievers, as docile as they all are, if I was really scared and being attacked, I know they would come to my rescue. But regardless, I take no chances, so I take my self defense classes... My horse will be the least of their problems- Even if they kill me, I won't go down without a fight...

Krav Maga rules!
Lisa

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Nov. 22, 2006, 02:47 PM

Paintmisbehavin, I checked Amazon and there are two. One in 1992 and another from 1994. One was co-written with another Author and another only by the serial killer.
Do you know if these are the same?

I don't know. I checked Amazon just now but I only came up with one from, I think, 1992. Maybe 1994 was when it came out in paperback? Anyway, the book was co-written with Wilton Earle, a journalist who did taped interviews with PeeWee for about three months and then wrote the book in PeeWee's voice. I'm not sure PeeWee himself was literate. Anyway, enjoy. It is a truly creepy read.:yes:

TrippleRipple - yep, that's my DH, too. Wants to think the best of everyone and believes he can handle it if it turns out he misjudged. Typical southern country boy.:D

SBT

Nov. 22, 2006, 03:40 PM

OK, cops, sheriffs, self defence gurus, whatever, how in the name of God do you possibly defend yourself against being rendered unconscious from behind before you even know someone is there?????????????????

That depends. If you are grabbed from behind in a choke hold, there IS a way to prevent yourself from being rendered unconscious/having your airway cut off. TURN YOUR HEAD TO THE SIDE, SO YOUR CHIN IS AT THE ATTACKER'S ELBOW. Your windpipe cannot be crushed this way.

Assuming the attacker's right arm is around your throat, turn your head to the right, into the attacker's elbow, and grab his arm as tight as you can with both hands.

Then, QUICKLY, go down on your right knee, then place your right elbow on the ground next to your left foot. The attacker will roll off over your right shoulder, and you still have his arm. DON'T LET GO OF IT, because you will be able to twist it and keep him going down. YELL at him: "GET ON THE GROUND, NOW!" When he does go all the way down (and he will), kneel on his arm and punch him HARD in the face. Then get up and run like hell.

Now, if you are rendered unconscious by a blow to the head from behind, I'm not sure there's much you can do about that normally, other than being super-vigilant about your surroundings. AT THE BARN, though, you could simply wear your helmet all the time. Keep it in your car, and put it on before getting out, and take it off when you get home. :yes: If it's cool where you live, you could also wear a puffy jacket/vest with a collar to prevent your neck from being vulnerable. :yes:

King's Ransom

Nov. 22, 2006, 03:57 PM

StillWorkingonit --
you may not think you are "prey" species, and i hate to burst your bubble, but you have been "preyed upon" four times. in all of those instances you were DEFINITELY the prey. and you reacted appropriately. kicking, biting, screaming, lashing out ... not trying to tell yourself that it was "nothing" and acting calm and dignified like a "lady." Good on you! But don't think for a minute that you were not "prey." You absolutely were!

Tiki

Nov. 22, 2006, 04:40 PM

Wow SBT!!! Thanks. I've printed that out and I plan to read it on a regular basis to imprint it in my mind. Thanks so much.

bumknees

Nov. 22, 2006, 09:48 PM

I personally would not go for pepper spray or a knife etc. But rather use the things around and handy to me at the time. alongwith a good self defense calss or marial arts ( karate, Ti quan Do etc).
I walk everywhere with at least my key in my fist between two fingers. Dosent matter if I am in a city or in podunk. I also ( and I kn0w that at least some here do not smoke) But I also carry a lit cigrette in my other hand. I jab up firstto chin/ jaw area then with teh key then go for the face as close to the eye or up the nose with the cig. Dosent matter if you actually smoke the thing as long as it is lit.
A Drivers license or a stiff id type card (if you have the where with all/ time to get it out) the corner can do wicked damage to mouth, eye, ears. I carry a stiff id type card in the outside pocket of my purse ( one that is very expired so if hte person were to get it it would be no good.) with in easy grabbingrange.

You would be suprised what we females carry in our purses can be very painful to leathel to an attacker.
I gave a 'talk' to a group of old women for the VFW AUX in my area 98% of their membership are WWII era spouses/widows not to long ago I was told that an 80+ yo woman had to use the key and card on an attacker think she weighs 90lbs soaking wet with a wet wool sweater on. ANd she is not he best balanced person but she managed to fight off the much younger bigger guy. the guy ended up in the hospital.

Jaegermonster

Nov. 22, 2006, 10:06 PM

omg i havent even heard of this!! in FL we have a new self defense law that we can now shoot to kill if attached, or needed for self defens,

OK I have to clarify this. You have always always always had the right to defend yourself or another against physical harm or death. Period. This is not a "New" law, contrary to what the media would like you to believe. All it does is somewhat loosen the attempts you have to make to avoid the confrontation or escape prior to meting out your street justice.

And good God, I should hope you are "shooting to kill" regardless, if you are not you are an idiot. If you need to be shooting someone you most likely need to be killing them, if you don't then you don't need to be shooting them.

And as many others said, unless you are Steven Segal or Bruce Lee, don't delude yourself about carrying a knife around. You have to be very quick, and very very very good with one, otherwise you will be in biggg trouble. You also have to be very close to someone to use a knife, which I think that is what most of you are trying to avoid.

OkLurchers

Nov. 23, 2006, 01:32 AM

I think I may be able to add a bit of info to this thread--sorry, but this will be a long post. Violent offenders, esp. rapists and serial killers are my particular area of expertise (MA thesis on expanding FBI's serial killer profiling system; Ph.D. dissertation on rapists--the last became a book...workshops with Roy Hazelwood & Anna Saulter. I'm a professor who teaches Criminology & a Violent Offenders course among others).
The book previously mentioned by a poster was The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. He's been on Oprah and was the 1st to say "never go the 2nd location" & never discount your gut instincts. I always recommend that book to my students, as does my friend, a retired FBI profiler who recommended the book to me.
While most people, statistically, are killed by someone they know, often during a fight of some sort, serial killers are quite different, and much more rare than the average TV crime show would have you believe.
Runaway Alter, what your town is dealing with is an organized serial killer who uses a blitz attack to render his victims unconscious, then abducts them to his "comfort zone" where my guess is they are raped, tortured & strangled? would be my guess as to mode of murder. This is not unlike many of Ted Bundy's attacks--he would con a woman to get her to his car, then do a blitz attack, load her unconscious body into his car, abduct, torture, kill her & then dump the victim's body in a 3rd spot.
The predator in Alter's town is probably white, between ages 25 & 40 & very normal looking--it is very important to remember that sexual predators do not usually have "rapist" tattooed on their foreheads--they're much more likely to look like Ted Bundy than Henry Lee Lucas. Did you see pictures of Dennis Rader (BTK killer) last year? Very normal. They blend in.
It's almost impossible to predict & prevent a blitz attack if the offender is close enough to you to reach you. It's coming from behind, & the attacker has done it enough before so that he will not relay his intentions to you. That's why gut instinct is important. Your body picks up on things your mind says you can logically discount.
Pay attention to this guy's victim selection. Does he choose prostitutes? They are the preferred targets of many serial killers; most serial killers want victims they can access and control easily. Other than prostitutes, most killers look for victims that can be controlled more easily--in particular passive looking victims who are either distracted or those who avoid eye contact--people not likely to put up much of a fight.
Even organized serial killers who enjoy controlling their victims before killing them usually stick to what and who they know; they like to blend in.
Unless your whole area is horsey & his other abductions/attacks/kills have been near barns, or his victims were horsewomen, I'd be very surprised if he showed up at your barn. If he does attack horsewomen, then my guess is he's also comfortable with both horses & horsepeople--a relatively small fraternity, IMHO.
The average garden variety predator who hasn't been around barns, with big, unpredictable horses & dogs, isn't likely to take a chance on an unfamiliar place--especially if he's an organized offender. They tend to be controlling to the point of anal retention.
Consider the layout of your barn--how hard is it to see what's going on from a distance? How easily can you tell how many people are at the barn? Try to look at it from a predator's standpoint--as you drive up, day or night, what can you see?
These guys want to be successful in their attacks--and if they can't control most of the variables it's a no go. There's always a pattern to the attacks and to victim choice, and my studies have found availability & opportunity to be the most important factors in victim selction, hands down.
I agree that it's a good idea to call your local police & ask their advice & for them to do regular "drive-bys." In my experience (I teach lots of law enforcement officers) most cops are happy to do whatever it takes to make the community feel safer, especially in areas proximate to brutal crimes.

In the meantime, don't stop living your life; instead, practice observation & risk management. There's safety in numbers, and remember, you don't have to be nice to everyone--read The Gift of Fear, it'll give you specific behaviors to look out for from predators. PM me if I can help you with anything more specific.

citydog

Nov. 23, 2006, 01:45 AM

Thanks for that, OkLurchers. Fascinating stuff.

TripleRipple

Nov. 23, 2006, 02:42 AM

Thanks too oklurcher - that has really given me things to think about when analyzing risk, ie how does the bad guy read situations, what is he looking for, etc... Sometimes I focus more on what "I" should look for, how "I" should react, what "I" can protect myself with, what situations "I" feel are bad, and so on. But maybe I should be seeing things through a bad guy's eyes - and what I deduce should play a big part in shaping my reactions.

I watched Gavin De Becker on Oprah a long time ago, and read the book. It is a must for anyone who still doesn't feel okay about saying NO when something as undefinable and illogical as instincts sounds off and tells us what to do. Parts of it were a little gabby, as I recall; however the message is worth the price of the book, many times over.

The analysis of what instincts are, and why they work takes such things right out of the realm of "voodoo", which is how some people view such stuff, and into the area of "okay, I get why this works; and I get how to hone it to work even better."

That book should be on every one's Christmas reading list - buy it or check it out at the library.

Prieta

Nov. 23, 2006, 10:00 AM

Came too late to this thread...

I think that most of the postings are excellent! I need to add that I tell my girls to:

1. Scream - "I don't know you!" People will be more likely to help prevent another "Amber Alert".

2. They must hear our secret password from a stranger; otherwise, it is a no go. But, with logic, they will not talk with a stranger like stranger asking them for help with a sick dog in their car - my girls know that any sane person will ask police, Humane Society, or a group of adult.

3. Stick with their horses because we notice most of the stranger are not willing to come up to horses. Unless, this stranger is comfortable with horses; then, my girls will get their horses going at a fast pace if the stranger gets too close and makes them uncomfortable.

Tiki

Nov. 23, 2006, 12:11 PM

In a strange place, don't be a victim. Walk as if you really do know where you are going. Look around, don't look down and apologetic and unsure of yourself.

Mary Waickman

Nov. 23, 2006, 01:21 PM

I have been a lurker here for a couple of years now. I am so impressed with this thread, that I sent a link to it to one of my breed specific blogs. So much of this should be MANDATORY reading for not just horse people, but everyone... especially those who do activities that are mostly alone (jogging, riding, biking, etc.)

Please, everyone, don't be paranoid, be aware. This is a holiday weekend, and lots of us will be out on the trails. Watch out for each other.

Thank you, all of you, who have given first hand knowledge and advice, from all of us who may need a reminder once in a while...

Happy Thanksgiving, I know I have a lot to be thankful for,

Mary Waickman

RunawayAlter

Nov. 23, 2006, 01:25 PM

OkLurchers-- you are right on the money with all of your assessments of this guy. Gonna PM you....

Huntertwo

Nov. 23, 2006, 04:18 PM

That depends. If you are grabbed from behind in a choke hold, there IS a way to prevent yourself from being rendered unconscious/having your airway cut off. TURN YOUR HEAD TO THE SIDE, SO YOUR CHIN IS AT THE ATTACKER'S ELBOW. Your windpipe cannot be crushed this way.

Assuming the attacker's right arm is around your throat, turn your head to the right, into the attacker's elbow, and grab his arm as tight as you can with both hands.

Then, QUICKLY, go down on your right knee, then place your right elbow on the ground next to your left foot. The attacker will roll off over your right shoulder, and you still have his arm. DON'T LET GO OF IT, because you will be able to twist it and keep him going down. YELL at him: "GET ON THE GROUND, NOW!" When he does go all the way down (and he will), kneel on his arm and punch him HARD in the face. Then get up and run like hell.

Now, if you are rendered unconscious by a blow to the head from behind, I'm not sure there's much you can do about that normally, other than being super-vigilant about your surroundings. AT THE BARN, though, you could simply wear your helmet all the time. Keep it in your car, and put it on before getting out, and take it off when you get home. :yes: If it's cool where you live, you could also wear a puffy jacket/vest with a collar to prevent your neck from being vulnerable. :yes:

I tried this on my 6'1 hubby this morning and it worked!! I didn't flip him, although I easily could have. Definitely something to remember.

YoungFilly

Nov. 23, 2006, 08:38 PM

Great thread, I read the whole thing (it took me about an hour and half though!)

I used to board at a barn in RI and I would have to be there, alone, and at night. I used to get very scared. I used my horse as a barometer to know if I was just being silly (for the most part I was) but there were times that she reacted before I knew something was going on and gave me heads up. I hate to admit it, I *hated* going to the barn under conditions like that. I always considered myself as a wimp for being afraid.

As for using your horse as a weapon, I have personally done this. This happened when I was a kid, and I had a very reactive TB like built appaloosa. I was on my horse, and circled the horse around the guy, and made the horse make very quick movements towards him, and then pulling back, and then doing it again. He was clearly intimidated by the horse. That horse could also rear on command, and I am positive I could have used that as a weapon. He was also the type of horse that I could have had in a gallop in about 1 second.

oleary157

Nov. 23, 2006, 08:57 PM

try to go to the barn with another person...maybe not go to the barn at all??? Maybe go with a guy friend or carry a pocket knife? Please be safe!

birdsong

Nov. 23, 2006, 09:08 PM

really works....but you have to have it handy and readily available if you are surprised or attacked.

I certainly would get some and keep it on my belt while this creep is lurking ..

asb_own_me

Nov. 23, 2006, 09:28 PM

It seems like a very hard thing to teach a dog that is normally friendly and placid.

Those same breeds of dogs who are bred for protection work often have those same instincts still intact, even in pet homes. I have two Dobermans....one is protective and one is a complete wussy. Both adult females, both would sound an alarm, but only one would back it up. I didn't train her to do this, and she does not randomly threaten people. She is normally friendly and placid. Actually very placid....calm, level headed, to the point of lazy at times. She's a competition obedience dog and a therapy dog. But in the "wrong" situation she becomes the scariest thing on earth to someone who intends to harm me. And the wussy - she would bark and scream until 10 counties' worth of police officers arrived. I'm not sure that she would *protect* me, but he noise would drive someone insane!

A dog who has a bond with his person (greatly fostered through a working relationship--do obedience, agility, herding, trick training or anything where you and your dog *work* as a *team*) will usually make *some* effort to defend his person.

Bingo. Everyone who has a dog should focus on that BOND. A dog will fight to protect his/her pack. Concentrate on the relationship between you and your dog, and your dog will do the best he/she can do to protect you. That might mean fight, or it might mean barking their head off. Either way, it's something and any little bit helps in situations like these.

To the OP - thinking of you :yes:

citydog

Nov. 23, 2006, 09:36 PM

As for using your horse as a weapon,

I know there are other threads on this, but it bears repeating, I think. I highly recommend Scot Hansen's video (http://www.horsethink.com/Videos-SelfDefense.htm) on self defense for riders (focusing mostly on mounted stuff, but also what to do if you're on the ground with your horse and are attacked).

Cheerful1

Nov. 24, 2006, 12:35 AM

A lot of good advice here I think!

Regarding dogs - my Dad had a big black Woflhound/lab mix at his place of business. He had a problem with a man from the apartments behind walking through with his smaller dog, and fishing near the dock (fuel dock). The man was a super buff guy whom everyone looked at and said, "hmm, must be steroids". He looked like Hulk Hogan. My Dad's dog was extremely protective to the point of having to be watched for biting people. So, when my Dad, aged about 65 had a confrontation with this guy over fishing when asked not to, he wasn't too worried because of having his very large protective dog with him. My Dad said he would have cleaned the guy's clock if he was 25 years younger - but!... The guy didn't want to leave when asked to and acted like he was about to deck my Dad when my Dad's dog attacked - the guy's DOG!!! :eek: It was like the dog said, ok, you take the guy, I'll deal with the dog. Hahaha. :lol: It ended ok with the guy agreeing to abide by the rules but it was a little scary. They both had to focus on getting the dogs apart so my Dad's dog didn't kill the guys little white fluffy dog. (he didn't)

I too think everyone should read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker. I've been stalked for a very long time, and it helped me get real and realize how dangerous the guy was and is. I had sort of "adapted" to the problem and with the exhaustion of long-term stalking had begun to weary of keeping my guard up all the time. The book helped me to profile him and in so doing to profile the likelihood that I would be seriously hurt or killed. I took drastic steps thereafter and believe it saved my life and was told so by the police.

I do believe pepper spray is very good, even with people on drugs because the type I have is also a tear gas and causes breathing problems not just eye-burning. I recommend trying it out first outside because the kind that I had before me surprised me by shooting in a small narrow stream instead of a big spray. It seemed like it would be hard to aim it. There are other types - there is a type that is a huge can that's like bear spray that has a wide area of spray and is very powerful. That seems safer to use than the small kind that goes on your keyring and shoots a small stream.

Also, my child got into mine in my purse while I was in the shower and sprayed some in my room (away from himself) and my gosh that stuff was horrible. We had to get out of the room for a couple of hours. It makes you feel like you really can't breathe, burns your eyes and is just nasty. (My child was fine once we got out of the room.)

So I would test out different kinds of mace/pepper spray/tear gas, and different sizes. As I mentioned, mine has both pepper spray and tear gas in it and was recommended by the police. Even if someone had sunglasses on or something it would definitely affect their breathing.

I've been there with this kind of fear and could tell a few stories. You can't be too careful and I sympathize with being in this situation.

Take care

RunawayAlter

Jan. 15, 2007, 01:49 PM

Well after several months of really watching my back, both at the barn and in my neighborhood, myself (and most of the women in the area) are breathing a sigh of relief! They caught the guy this morning. And have linked him to cases back as far as 1981. He's connected to all three of the homicides by DNA and several of the rapes as well.

I think in many ways it was a good lesson for all of us women at our barn... we no longer hang out alone, in the dark, and we are much more aware of our surroundings and the people that are coming and going. We always use the buddy system, always lock our cars, always keep cell phones on us. The barn has added an additional dog to the mix too.

The guy was just a "normal" person, had lived here all his life, was married and had two kids. I feel quite sad for his family.

Anyway just wanted to update since I know this thread sparked a lot of discussion.

Hope you all are staying safe!!

tullio

Jan. 15, 2007, 02:12 PM

I'm so glad you posted - I'm sure I was not the only one wondering how this story would end.

My only question - do you think you and your barn friends will continue your new 'habits'? To me it would seem like a no-brainer. Just because one scary person is out of the picture, sadly does not make us all perfectly safe again.

Anyway, glad this person has been caught and you're not in immediate danger. Thanks for starting this thread and giving us all a lot to think about.

ChocoMare

Jan. 15, 2007, 02:18 PM

So glad to hear!

Let's hope someone takes care of him on the inside.... wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

DocNDabby

Jan. 15, 2007, 03:17 PM

Great News!!! Phew, breathing a sigh of relief for you and local gals.

So many times these sickos aren't found. Amazing that this guy's been going at this since 1981!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: SCARY.

Thanks, tho, for doing this post...so much good advice and info was shared and it educated ALLLL of us and made us all much more aware. I know many gals who just go to the barn and aren't even having this kind of thing on their minds (sad that we must, tho!)...but, better SAFE than sorry.

Kudos to your local law enforcement and all those who helped to find this jerk!:yes: :yes: :yes:

Skip's Rider

Jan. 15, 2007, 04:13 PM

Whew! I'm glad they caught the guy. I missed this thread in November, so I'm glad you posted with an update. Great information here. This thread would make an excellent addition to the references section.

millwrightmomma

Jan. 15, 2007, 04:20 PM

Glad to see they caught the guy.
Since 1981..........the lenght of time surprises me, but people who do this don't stop, they just continue in another place or country.
Keep your new habits, too many sickos out there.

City Ponies

Jan. 15, 2007, 04:21 PM

Haven't read the entire post.. sorry.. short time left here at work and I do wanna add this and if someone else did.. sorry!

From experience I've had to do it and it works!!

Just run to your nearest friendly horse. Lock yourself in the stall and stay to the back wall, keeping said big horse between you and creepy guy (if he is even brave enough to walk in there with big horse). I always have inside locks in my stalls for whatever useless reason, usually I groom them loose in there and don't want them being sneaky and walking out on me. Works for 1- it's hard to unlock a stall when its on the inside, and two most non-horsepeople will likely walk away from a 1200 lb animal in confineded spaces.. no offense to the OP... but I don't think your booty is THAT tempting!! LOL Plus - if you keep cell-phone in tow it gives you those 30 seconds to dial. -- Just make sure you pick the biggest and nicest horse!

jme

Jan. 15, 2007, 04:48 PM

Great information here. This thread would make an excellent addition to the references section.

Yes, I hope they add it to the references section. Very informative. There are so many of us "horse gals" who usually think of the safety of our animals before our own.

KayBee

Jan. 15, 2007, 04:48 PM

Learn to kick. I took a 2-hour self-defense workshop some years back and was told is that it takes only 20 lbs of pressure to break a kneecap -- and that, if you break someone's kneecap, they're not going to be able to come after you.

I can't describe, in writing, how to perform the kick, alas. And it doesn't work if you're grabbed from behind. (In that case, do your best to stamp, hard, on their feet/instep.)

The other piece of information is that if you do get thrown to the ground, keep kicking! Scoot around on your butt and kick, kick, kick.

The last piece of advice I recall was to do everything to avoid being taken off to another location.

OkLurchers

Jan. 15, 2007, 11:21 PM

Thanks for the update RunawayAlter. It's amazing how often these predators turn out to seem "normal" to neighbors & co-workers.

Horsecrazy27

Jan. 15, 2007, 11:30 PM

Get a dog trained in personal protection----or get a large dog and take some personal protection classes.

I have a boxer (yes--I know, most are just licking, tail wagging mush faces, but this boy--- he is a bit scary looking (being from Germany, he is bigger and tuffer looking))

Anyway, dogs have a great sick sense and of course can smell if someone is near faster than we will hear or see them. My husband who is an ex-cop says that typically "bad guys" have a strong odor that dogs recognize---because when your all ready to commet such a crime, you produce a chemical---from the adrinaline-fear-excitement---from what he says, it can be so strong that he has even smelled it after so many cases--recognizing the same smell. Anyway, I agree a dog--or 2-3? Praying for your safty and for this guy to make a HUGE mistake and get caught!!!

asb_own_me

Jan. 16, 2007, 12:13 PM

Runaway Alter - I am so glad to hear the good news! Keep up your new more vigilant habits, though. Never know when they will come in handy. I agree, this is a great thread for the Reference forum.

citydog

Jan. 16, 2007, 12:30 PM

Thanks for the update, RunawayAlter.

This is an important thread.

GallantGesture

Jan. 16, 2007, 09:40 PM

This is such a good thread, and I'm SO glad to hear the guy was caught. I think it is so important for us to be aware and prepared, it is something no one wants to think about but a little planning can go such a long way! I just want to toss in another "trust your horse" story, and say thanks for the posts about trusting yourself and not worrying about seeming rude or paranoid... I did tae kwon do for a lot of years (complements riding very well!!), earned my black belt, fought lots of big competitions, etc and I live in what is generally considered a very safe area... so false sense of security I guess. I was out riding in the woods one sunny afternoon last fall, alone of course, because I am too stubborn to miss a day of riding when the weather is perfect even if no one will go with me, and all the sudden my horse goes from walking calmly along, checking out the scenery, to head up, red alert, balking, jigging acting totally out of character. I assumed he had spotted a deer or a coyote or something in the woods, although we see plenty of these and usually they don't get much more than a passing glance from him, but I couldn't spot one and told him to walk on, telling him nothing was there, it's ok. Well, as we came around the bend in the trail, there's two men standing on the side of the trail in camo, one has a gun bag over his shoulder, and they sorta glare at me and my horse gets explosively tense under me. We meet all sorts of people, lots of hikers and bikers (no hunting allowed here), and they don't bother him one bit. But these two are CREEPY, and its not my feelings transferring to my horse because he picked it up before I knew they were there. Being the dummy that I am, I make him walk passed and I say hi and continued on as quick as I can without looking hurried (don't want to seem rude, right??!!). But then I glance over my shoulder and the guy with the gun bag has stepped on to the trail and stares straight into my eyes with a calculating look that made every hair on my back stand up. I turned back around and grabbed mane and let my horse run, didn't have to ask him twice, he was just glad to be outta there, all the while thinking how stupid I was not to trust him. He TOTALLY knew something was up and was telling me quite clearly that we should not go that way, but I didn't listen. Next time I will. I am pretty sure if I had been on foot or on a bike I could have been in trouble. I have no idea what they were up to, but something wasn't right about it. You know your horse's normal behavior, if he is telling your something, LISTEN!!!!

RunawayAlter

Jan. 16, 2007, 10:32 PM

Yeah the whole thing is pretty creepy. The people who know this guy-- friends, neighbors, family, coworkers-- just can't believe he is it. But they had 100% match on DNA, he's been identified by victims who survived and one witness, and he has a police record of rather "indecent" activities.

We are most definitely keeping up our new barn-safety habits. I will never walk or run alone, as I used to. Nor will I spend time at the barn alone after dark. Or anytime really.

This thread has been really eye-opening to me, and I've really been thankful for all the advice and support!!!

MHM

Jan. 16, 2007, 10:44 PM

But they had 100% match on DNA, he's been identified by victims who survived and one witness.

I'm so glad for your sake this situation had a solid resolution. This must have felt like an incredibly long couple of months.

I thought of this thread today when I was reading current news stories about THREE different serial killers who have been caught fairly recently, not to mention the guy who was found with those kidnapped boys last week.

Sad to say, the wackos are out there. We all need to be careful, not casual, regarding our safety.

Many thanks to all the posters here who shared their knowledge!

Horsecrazy27

Jan. 17, 2007, 09:57 AM

YEA, he was caught. I just now went through most of the post.....very interesting points and really is just a reminder how careful we all have to be. It would be good to have a post like this show up more often to keep us on our toes. THERE is no accident that this was posted, no doubt will save someones life. There is a reason for everything. (IMHO)

so sorry MSP for your friend. How terrible. SO SORRY. Heartbreaking

In the Doggie protection classes, they really focus on training the dog to not fall for the "take the coat off and throw it in a room--dog fetches the coat--then gets locked in the room" trick. My dog has fallen for it once---he was corrected (by not letting him "BITE" the attacker for 2 sessions----which just makes him want the bad guy more----it is kinda like holding the bacon in front of him and not letting him have it. He needs to know that the bad guy is the bacon----not the clothes of the bad guy. (Bitting is an award and only allowed when instructed unless I'm getting attacked.) But, if he see's something, I watch---if I see something I give the german word to "look for danger".

I was really really reluctant to have my dog go through training--training him to bite, just seemed wrong--------but, from what I researched training them to bite on command is actually safer than a dog that bites unpredicatably. My husband trained police dogs for 10 years in MI, so, this guy was raised by him---so the protection work was basically for legal reasons. In case I'm attacked and my dog bites the attacker, I can have the defense that the dog is trained to protect and I can verbally worn the attacker to stay away since the dog is considered a weapon.) But, if you have a dog that will protect---or that you have trained----you can be put in a terrible position if you don't have proof that you sought professional training. Professional training focus's on have a dog that can be approached by a kid----yet moments later bring down a bad guy.

It is amazing training and you start this by driving up their "prey drive"....you need to have a dog that is very courageous, intelligent and extremenly well trained in obediance. You must work on this several times a week--for life, to keep them in tuned.

With my dog--I will send my husband outside to hide somewhere, even I won't know where he will be, and we go for a walk. My husband with his "arm sleeve" hat, glasses and a stick. I will be talking on a cell phone or something to kinda distract him. My husband will all the sudden either jump out from either the front and I will warn him to stay away. My dog is trained to be on alert if someone approaches me in a violent way (arm raised with a stick coming at me fast), or my husband will run up behind me and grab me around the mouth-waste---my dog goes off! He can kick the dog, hit the dog--the dog is trained to give his life for me---my dog get rewarded by the attacker letting go and running away----I run the opposite direction and tell him how wonderful he is. We also will practice with me coming home with the dogs and he finds the bad guy and many other tricks.

Anyway, wanted to elaborate on the dog issue---by the way, he is so lovable and kind--great with kids. After having a "PP Dog", I will always have one. All of our dogs are super trained in obediance, and even skills like closing cabinets, opening doors, the refridge turning on/off lights, picking up dirty clothes for me, getting the paper--ect. They are not scary--they are well trained "tools"---tools that are the LOVES of my life! They go and see Santa every Christmas, go to the doggie park, play ball with the neighbor kids, great around the horses and stray cats. Anyway...babbling now.

jetsmom

Jan. 17, 2007, 10:33 AM

Just saw in todays paper that the guy they caught (if it is the one in NY) pled guilty.

Just Wondering

Jul. 12, 2007, 03:22 PM

My only question - do you think you and your barn friends will continue your new 'habits'? To me it would seem like a no-brainer. Just because one scary person is out of the picture, sadly does not make us all perfectly safe again.

Update? Still in the new 'habits'?

Reynard Ridge

Jul. 12, 2007, 03:28 PM

Anyway just wanted to update since I know this thread sparked a lot of discussion.

Hope you all are staying safe!!

Thanks for the update. :yes:

pvcjumper

Jul. 12, 2007, 03:52 PM

I can say from personal experience that trusting your gut is important. I made one simple stupid mistake at 18yrs old in thinking that a guy who came out of nowhere and followed me to my car on school campus (left my night class early, so parking lot was empty at 8pm) was just a weird but nice guy who maybe was hitting on me but had a legitimate excuse, that he was trying to sell magazine subscriptions. When he wouldnt let me get in my car i froze, and had no clue what to do (and of course stuff like this NEVER happens near those campus police alert stations!). I threw money at him and started babbling about needing to leave and I still to this day dont know what made him turn away so quickly, but he threw my money back at me and walked off extremely quickly. Jumped in my car, locked the doors and called my boyfriend at the time.

I have also been "pulled over" more recently by a "cop" I thought he was halfway legit until I was able to see what he was wearing and realize that he was not acting accordingly (or showed a badge which i wasnt aware of until i related the story to my bf and the cops) and was wearing a car service station uniform. I said "you are no F***ing cop, rolled my window up and drove away and immediately called the cops with the car type, description of the man and direction of travel. (no license plate though :() I found out that impersonating a cop is a quick ticket to the slammer and is NO joke to the police station.

Since the first occurance I have taken regular kickboxing classes, gotten pepper spray and become extremely aware of my surroundings. And the best thing i was told by a cop is to go for an eye. Its the easiest thing to damage and its not a "strength" or power thing lighting trying to hit him. Sink your thumbs in as quickly as possibly then run.

equinelaw

Jul. 12, 2007, 04:47 PM

I just don't think its safe to be out there alone under nay circumstances. This guy has killed 3 people. He has raped several more. He is a pro. I wouldn't want to be there on amature night trying out any new skills:no:
All the ideas for self defense are very good, but I am not sure even a trained police officer would be ready for Ted Bundy reincarnated. I'm not sure having a gun handy with a baby around is all that safe either.

If you have to skip some barn time, do it. YOu wont be much safer at home, but this guy is out there looking for someone just like you and he knows exactly what he is doing--hunting you.

YOu were thining of maybe moving your horse for training for a couple of months? This might not be a bad time to do that. Hopefully it is outside his hunting terrotory? That would only leave nasty girls at the barn all day. No, I do not wish them harm, but if crazy killer guy tries to attack you, at least throw one of them at him while you make a speedy escape dialing 911.

There is always some danger in being a woman alone at the barn, but in this case its more likely than not you would be the perfect target for someone you know is nearby. If forced to fight for your life please do so, but not being there at al might be th best plan. Yes, the killer wins becuase he causes so much fear, but lets face it, he deserves all the fear you can work up.
He is not just a rapist--he has moved onto being a seriel killer and he might not get cuaght for quite awhile, or he might get cuaght any day--but he has PRACTICE in cold blooded killing and thats a guy I don't want to meet--no matter how armed, alert and dangerous I think I am.