Why people think only the old/unusable are slaughtered..

[jetsmom]

This contains links to 2 threads of horses that were shipped to slaughter and sent back due to injuries sustained during transport. I can't post pics, so I am having to post the whole thread.
I am posting these to show the abuses/injuries that happen to horses in transport and how they are treated at the Feedlot/slaughterhouse. (By Feedlot, I am not referring to where this rescue organization works out of, but Stanwood)
THis is the "Humane end" that AQHA and AVMA endorse. And these were the "lucky" ones who get a second chance.


http://cberheadqrters.proboards103.com/index.cgi?board=rehabilitation&action=display&thread=1158294288

http://cberheadqrters.proboards103.com/index.cgi?board=rehabilitation&action=display&thread=1158695015


.

[county]

I don't think only old unusable livestock is slaughtered at all thats sily. The best meat comes from fat healthy animals always has always will why would anyone want meat from old injured animals? Slaughter plants don't take badly injured livestock there rejected. Right now is the peak season for culling livestock from breeding operations. The cull cow plant here in town can process 850 to 1000 head a day. The pens are full and last night there were 18 semi loads waiting to unload with no place to drop them. They lined up and waited up to 18 hours to unload. Any severly injured cattle are rejected, not a great system IMO but unless people will accept the fact more plants need to be built and are willing to pay more money for food the system isn't going to get changed.

[county]

BTW I don't think the AQHA or anyone has ever said the slaughter process works perfect 100% of the time. Never has and never will regardless of species its totally a dream world to ever think it does. We need to stick to reality and work for changes IMO doing the ban slaughgter thing the last 40 years hasn't worked why not try a reality approach and actually help livestock?

[FalseImpression]

the feedlots (did anyone say "feed"??) make sure that after a stay there, the horses look old and useless... it happened in what? 3 or 4 weeks? those horses were in good weight and good shape when they left on Sept. 25.

It is a shame. You would think those f...lots want to ship fat horses.. where is the meat on these poor guys?

Let's hope they make it or that they are given a peaceful end...

Edited to add:
Sounds like they were back at the original dealer by Oct. 16, so 3 weeks in hell and this is what you get: A shell of a horse. So sad!

[county]

ROTFLMAO the feed lots make sure they look old and useless? Ya right their goal is to lose as much money as they can right? Some of you have totally no clue about how this industry works do you?

BTW jetsmom if the AQHA and other groups endorse everything to do with slaughter as you claim I assume all the anti groups endorse terrorists and violence against pro slaughter groups and business. After all they are against slaughter so everything must be in the same boat so to speak right? Or is it another one way street youi travel?

[philosoraptor]

your link doesn't work. it keeps asking me for a password?

[nightsong]

Me, too. I TRIED to register, and it said my account wouldn't be activated until it was reviewed by an e mployee. wtf?

[luvmytbs]

What happened to those horses is just disgusting.

[gwenrowdy]

Oh, my God, FI, this is Blaze and Adam? I'm going to barf!

[KristiC]

County...Look at the pictures!!! This has nothing to do with your rants about slaughter. It's about the condition of these two horses that we all saw only a short time ago in good condition. Ok so maybe the heading could have been different but look at these horses and you will know what the OP was trying to relay.

This is disgusting and someone should be prosecuted. Those horses were in great flesh when they shipped from the feedlot on 9/25/2006. Fifty days later they return to the lot looking like that. IT's CRIMINAL!
Whether you are for or against slaughter you cannot disagree that what has happened here is not humane/legal. It does nothing to support that horses are treated humanely in the slaughter process(from feedlot to slaughter).
This story needs to get some press......

[county]

So where were those horses from when they left till they got back? At the slaughter plant? If so why were they kept there? There is no question someone took very poor care of them but unless it was the slaughter plant I don't see why you'd want to blame them. If it were two cows that someone neglected would you want to stop slaughtering beef? Who ever was responsable for not caring for the livestock should be held accountable. But shut down an entire industry? If thats the case pretty much every industry should be shut down theres abuse and neglect in pretty much everything.

BTW I'm still trying to find where the AQHA ever said they were in favor of this could someone point me to it.

[Mtn trails]

The horses were in a holding lot in western WA before being shipped across the border into Canada.

[county]

Then whoever is in charge of feeding them in that lot should be held accountable. Shut down an entire industry because someone neglected them? I don't hardly think so if we did that we'd all be eating fruit and veg. only.

[HorseTrouble]

BTW I'm still trying to find where the AQHA ever said they were in favor of this could someone point me to it.


http://www.aqha.com/news/sept7slaughterupdate.html

[gazenna]

County, Why cant you get it, this is a HORSE BOARD?

[county]

I've read that before I didn't see anything where there in favor of horses being neglected or abused that time either.

[county]

gazenna why can't you get it I don't place one species of animal over another. If you have a problem why not tell the moderator? personally I could care less.

[clint]

I'm really having a hard time figuring out the story behind the two horses returned. The pictures of them on the feedlot show them in good flesh. Then they are shipped out, held at Stanwood, and returned emaciated? And a holding facility paid for shipping back. After starving them for six weeks? It doesn't make any sense at all to me. Why, if they didn't accept them there, didn't they dispatch them rather than ship them back? I think there is more to the story. I don't know that much about the norms of a rejected slaughter horse, but is that what would happen?

[county]

Why were they rejected?

[clint]

Why were they rejected?

I'm not sure. That feedlot has had a lot of strangles and other disease, but why single out those horses? They were old; one was 19 and the other in her 20s. They would probably have been less likely to have it than younger horses, and since so many have been sick, maybe many had it. I couldn't tell from the threads this morning why they were sent back, but I gathered there had been another occasion when a horse came back. The pics of the horses upon return are horrifying, with probably a "1" body condition score on the older mare, Blaze.

[county]

What were there body score to start with would you say? To get to a 1 in 6 weeks they couldn't have been a 10. But I'd sure like to know the whole story thats for sure.

Still can't find where the AQHA said they endorse abuse and neglect. jetsmom since your the one says they do could you show it to me please?

[Daydream Believer]

I can't get on the board either...

[Sannois]

are not accessable unless you are a registered member.
I have a question, if these 2 were fat and in good condition, Who sent them to slaughter???:eek: And god why at that age would you??

[county]

Why not send fat and good conditioned livestock to slaughter? I don't know of one person who wants to eat skinny and poor conditioned livestock. Why at that age? same reason any species if the meat buyer pays the most money the seller many times sells. Same with old cows and other livestock.

[tbtrailrider]

Then whoever is in charge of feeding them in that lot should be held accountable. Shut down an entire industry because someone neglected them? I don't hardly think so if we did that we'd all be eating fruit and veg. only.

Tell me how in the he** shutting down the horse slaughter industry is gonna stop me from eating bacon ...WTF:D That argument about beef slaughter being next to be banned if horse slaughter is banned is a hoot...:rolleyes: utterly ridiculous...

[county]

I totally agree with you but then I never made that statement in any way. I'm thinking your reading comprehension skills could maybe use a little work.

[KristiC]

For those of you that cannot access the site try these links. Warning...these are disturbing pictures.

Blaze Sept 06 at the feedlot
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/CBERfoxie/Liver%20Chestnut/blaze1.jpg

Blaze - Nov06
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/Blaze3.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/blaze.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/blaze1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/blaze5.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/blaze6.jpg

Adam - Sept 06 -on the feedlot
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/CBERfoxie/Dark%20Brown/adam2.jpg


Adam - Nov 06
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/adam.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/adam1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/adam3.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/kararei/CBER/adam2.jpg

[clint]

What were there body score to start with would you say? To get to a 1 in 6 weeks they couldn't have been a 10. But I'd sure like to know the whole story thats for sure.

Still can't find where the AQHA said they endorse abuse and neglect. jetsmom since your the one says they do could you show it to me please?

No, not a 10. I would say the big TB, Adam, was probably at least a 6-7; he was in outstanding condition. The older mare had ribs and hips covered, maybe a 5+. She is the one who looks the worst, but both are awful.

AQHA didn't endorse abuse and neglect, but in their member magazine they encouraged their members to write their congressmen in support of slaughter and if they didn't support it, to give reasons why. I must say, for a breed organization to openly encourage slaughter does give me a BIG pause.:( Why not encourage selective breeding?

[Sannois]

pic of someone riding her bareback.. She is a cadavar now.
My question County was where did these horses come from, at that age I am surprised anyone would send them to the feed lot sale. They looked healthy and loved. What I want to know is how soon did they go to the slaughterhouse after the original pics were taken?? Cause I can sure understand if they were at the Slaughter house looking like they do in the second pics, they are of no value there. :eek: Poor things, Blaze looked really sweet in the first pic.
:(

[county]

I'm aware the AQHA is pro slaughter so am I for many of the same reasons. But the OP stated they endorse the type treatment these horses received which is for lack of a better word a " lie '.

The AQHA lost a big court case dealing with limiting regestrations with ET I doubt they would get far with selective breeding. The state of TX. has the strictest " right to free trade laws " in the nation there not going to tell who can and cannot breed livestock.

[luvmytbs]

sannois.

over 90% of horses going to slaughter look as healthy as these two did.
They left from the feedlot to the holding facility in good condition.

[tbtrailrider]

I totally agree with you but then I never made that statement in any way. I'm thinking your reading comprehension skills could maybe use a little work.


Yes you did say it...my skills are fine, both reading comprehension and a$$ hole recognition....come on...here is your direct quote
Then whoever is in charge of feeding them in that lot should be held accountable. Shut down an entire industry because someone neglected them? I don't hardly think so if we did that we'd all be eating fruit and veg. only.

[county]

Yep thats my quote and like I said your reading comprehension skills are poor. As far as the personal attacks idiot I can do that also if thats how you want to go.

[zjaraam]

My question County was where did these horses come from, at that age I am surprised anyone would send them to the feed lot sale. They looked healthy and loved.
Quite a few of the horses that go through the system originate at local weekly/monthly auctions. Perhaps their former owners fell on hard times going into the winter or simply did not want the horse any longer, perhaps the kids no longer have interest in riding therefore they take the horse to the local auction to sell assuming it will be purchased by someone that is looking for a good riding horse for themself or their child. Most individuals who sell horses at these auctions are unaware of the term "kill buyer" and have no idea that by taking their horse to such a sale they are running the risk of their horse going to the meat man. When you take your horse to the sale, unless you place a reserve high enough, you are basically asking for the unwanted buyer to step in and purchase the horse.

[JoZ]

It looks like strangles to me. Blaze has what looks like draining abscesses on his temple. If he had an abscess in his throat he would probably not eat due to the pain. When my horses got strangles, one of them wouldn't eat or drink. Banamine, tubing, making sloppy soup out of beet pulp and grain, that's what got my girl through -- no one was doing that for Blaze.

Horses are coming out of CBER with strangles or at best incubating strangles and are being transported that way. My vet has seen several of them and has lost a few too. Strangles isn't reportable in Washington so there's nothing the state vet can do... unless we are successful in changing the law.

[gazenna]

County. You always say that "I could care less" . That is the one and only thing you say that I totally agree with. I dont think you care about anything unless you have something to gain from it.

[FalseImpression]

These two horses and one that had not been listed were shipped on Sept. 25, 2006 because nobody adopted them and the dealer needed a certain number of horses to fill the truck He does feed the horses on the lot and the volunteers do inform the members if the horses are losing weight. The one horse that was not listed was sent back (but we as members were not told he had been to hell and back) and was adopted by a lovely lady and her amazing son on October 16. That horse has been looked after very well since then and is recovering well.
Chances are Adam and Blaze came back at the same time and I am sure the volunteers did everything they could since then to care for them. We do not know when they were taken to a foster home and were not told about them until yesterday (I don't even know if we were supposed to know, but there was a slip of the tongue somewhere...)
In other words, they could have been at the holding facility from a few days to maybe 3 weeks. As I said before, I thought the holding facility was also called a "feed"lot...
Apparently, Blaze was sick with the crud that has been going around and Adam was injured in the trailer and then got sick. The third horse was rejected because of nosebleeds.
The dealer is apparently responsible for picking up the rejected horses and take them back to his lot. When he did that, I guess is anybody's guess. At his convenience I assume and maybe this is the time when they did not get fed.
I am sick that some people think this is "normal". And County, I am so glad you are on my ignore list... don't bother replying to my posts.

[county]

I always say that? really where at? BTW I thought we weren't supposed to mention any animal on here except horses. Yet your going on about Beaver and muskrat. Why is that if you actually beleive what you say?

[county]

ROTFLMAO so FI if you really want me to be ignored why post to me? Just curious but are you over or under age 12?

[tbtrailrider]

Yep thats my quote and like I said your reading comprehension skills are poor. As far as the personal attacks idiot I can do that also if thats how you want to go.

OK, so explain what you meant please? I took it that you believe if horse slaughter were banned, it would prevent me from eating meat? As in cattle slaughter wopuld be banned too? Am I the only one who took this to mean what I did?

[Daydream Believer]

I am really confused....how did these horses end up starved? They looked great and then were starved a few months later? This happened in a feed lot? A foster home?

Those poor horses look beyond awful. Adam is adorable.

[appaloosalady]

Hmmmm, is there another full moon already?

[JoZ]

Blaze was sick with the crud that has been going around

Call a spade a spade, it's STRANGLES. Not "crud". I am tired of having the strangles epidemic in the feedlot glossed over as if it weren't important. Sure, adopt them out, ship them out, git er done. When they get off the trailers they are someone else's problem.

[county]

tbtrailrider what I said was if we ban slaughter of every species that somone neglects we would only have fruit and veg to eat. The key word being " if " there are cases of neglect all over the country of every species there is that hardly means we should stop eating meat. I never said we should, we will, or in any way thats going to happen.

And as I've said the condition these horses are in is deploreable and who ever was responsable for their care should be hung. It has nothing to do with slaughter in any way shape or form. It has every thing to do with neglect and no care.

[county]

We have the strangles problem in this state at tmes also especially at boarding stables. No laws here about reporting it or doing anything about it so it can be hard to control. I've never had it here ( knock on wood ) but I'm very fussy about what and who comes and goes here.

[KristiC]

These horses were on a feedlot in Washingon in September(looking good). This is the feedlot that Columbia Basin Equine Rescue works to adopt out horses from. They were posted on CBER for adoption but when the truck came they were used to fill the truck(on 9/25/2006). They went to the holding lot and then it appears they were shipped to the slaughter house in Canada(not 100% sure) but were returned/rejected due to injury/illness. At some point they were sent back to the original feedlot owner and CBER is now trying to save them.
This may not be fact but is my interpretation of what happened.

[Leisa]

Adam was actually used in the youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7sQ3RwnX0
It was finished and posted the day after he shipped...

It will be interesting to see how this story plays out and see just what happened to these horses after being shipped out. It is great to know that they are alive, but the condition they are in is horrific. I only hope that once the truth is known, whoever is responsible for their deplorable condition is held accountable.

[jetsmom]

County- THe AQHA, in numerous letters to members, and press releases has stated that they support the slaughter process as a humane end. THe AVMA, also has that position.

THese horses were at the lot that CBER works out of for a few days. THe (before) pics were taken a couple of days before they shipped to the feedlot (Stanwood). They came back to CBER (lot) in the condition you see. This was not done by an adopter or foster home, but by the transporter/feedlot.

Adam just kills me, as he has a look about him in the prev pic that reminds me of Jet. You can see he thinks a lot of himself, and is full of life. THe after pics show a horse with no life in his eyes...


Sannois- THese horses were sent to auction by their owners or sold to the dealer lot that CBER works out of, where the owner of the lot sells a large number of horses to slaughter. By supporting slaughter, THIS is part of the system that is being supported. Transport injuries and lack of care at the auctions and feedlots are very common.

[county]

jetsmom, like I said I'm very aware of the AQHA position on slaughter. As I asked if in your mind they approve of abuse and neglect because there pro slaughter do you also feel anti slaughter groups approve of terrorists that set fires, slash tires, make threats on kids and families of slaughter people? Or do you live on a one way street?

[tbtrailrider]

tbtrailrider what I said was if we ban slaughter of every species that somone neglects we would only have fruit and veg to eat. The key word being " if " there are cases of neglect all over the country of every species there is that hardly means we should stop eating meat. I never said we should, we will, or in any way thats going to happen.


Ohhhh, OK...(smacks my self on the forehead)
I agree :eek:
And as I've said the condition these horses are in is deploreable and who ever was responsable for their care should be hung. It has nothing to do with slaughter in any way shape or form. It has every thing to do with neglect and no care.

I agree :eek:

[FalseImpression]

Joz, yes, it is strangles, but not your "run of the mill" strangles either. They do not say it is not strangles. The horses are treated for strangles and QT of 60 days is highly recommended.
Also, they never made it to Canada. They were rejected upon inspection at Stanwood, probably never got onto the "feed"lot there with the rest of the horses, but set aside until pickup...which could have taken days.. and then, who knows if they were fed..

[shireluver]

I haven't had a chance ot read this whole thread, but I am going to lay out the facts that I know. Theses horse were shipped on 9/25/06. 3 horse out of the load weren't rejected at the slaughterhouse, when they were returned is not exactly known, but the person who has the third horse "Casino" saw him at the original feedlot, saw him there on October 13th, and got him home on October 17th.

CBER chose to let their supports, financial and emotion, continue to think that these horses were dead. The only reason it was made public that they weren't dead is because a supporter felt that the others deserved to know the truth.

Here are links to pictures of the horses. When these were taken, I don't know.

Blaze

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/Blaze.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/blaze2.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/Blaze3.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/Balze4.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/blaze6.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/blaze5.jpg

Adam

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/5824.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/640e.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/4353.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/Cber%20Horses/773b.jpg

[shireluver]

Okay, I have now gotten through the thread, sorry I posted the pictures again.

If this happened at Florence Packing, then they have some questions to answer.

I dont' think the arguement here is about slaughter. These horses were rejected. They are NOT the face of slaughter, they are the face of what slaughter houses don't want.

As for the strangles. The WA state vet has already been on Chuck about the problems at his lot, and recieved another call today because Chuck has not been following the orders the vet gave him to make sure horses are separated, vaccinated, etc.

[county]

Does Wa. State have laws about Strangles? I wish we did here.

[shireluver]

Does Wa. State have laws about Strangles? I wish we did here.


Not about Strangles I don't think, but about knowingly spreading a communicable disease.

[Loreli]

So I guess the big question here is when these pictures were taken. Were they taken the day they were returned from Stanwood (Oct 13?) or are they fairly recent pictures?

If they were taken the day that they returned then there is no question that the shipper/feedlot is responsible for their condition.

[Angela Freda]

Why would a feedlot (that had recently reopened after a closing due to illnesses of horses) keep horses they had "rejected", probably because they were ill, for weeks or months, and starve them?
Seems to me that would be illegal for the feedlot to do, take horses in intended for slaughter, then send them back out again.
CBER is constantly telling their members that once inside the feedlot, those horses do not get out.

Also aren't the feedlots regulated and inspected?
Wouldn't it be hard, if not something they could be prosecuted for, to starve horses?
Seems to me they are supposed to FATTEN up the horses there, and that the USDA is probably very clear about how the animals are to be cared for while there. Horses from this feedlot are shipped to Canada, thus this feedlot is under the jurisdiction of the USDA.
How and more importantly WHY would they starve just 3 horses out of the hundreds they might have on the lot at any given time?
Seems odd they would (or would be able to) segregate out 3 horses and starve just those ones.
But moreso, it seems odd that if they rejected them they would keep them any length of time at all.

Why is the "rescue" not giving all the facts on these horses?
-A date of when they were rejected at the feedlot?
-A date of when they were returned to CBERs posession (and why were they returned to CBER since the are truly Chuck Walkers (of Gary Seals Livestock in Zillah WA) porperty)?
-Where were they in the interim?
-If this emaciated state is the cause of neglect on the part of someone entrusted with their care, is CBER taking legal action, as most rescues would?
And wouldn't the "rescue" report that they are persuing all avenues of prosecution and will report facts when they are able to do so?

(something is stinky in Denmark folks)

[Loreli]

I just want to know WHEN those pictures were taken. That would answer most of the questions people have been asking regarding these horses.

[shireluver]

I doubt that will ever happen :(

[katiecountry]

I read on an anti-cber website that the pictures were taken on nov 3.

[Loreli]

Who has these horses now? Has anyone requested current photos?

[I'm EBO]

Adam is being cared for at the facility you see him at in his pictures. I was emailed by the woman who owns the facility about a month ago regarding his return, so those photos aren't recent-recent, or he was in much worse shape when he was returned.

Another of the rescue volunteers took Blaze to her home to try to rehab her. I don't post at their website any longer, so I don't know her progress.

With food and decent care, these two horses will most likely recover physically, at least.

As long as the barbarians and brutes who support the slaughter of horses in this country and in Canada have the law of the land behind them, no horse is safe from ending up exactly like this. Such things make me ashamed of my countrymen.

[county]

And as long as idiots like you keep calling people names that don't think like you will be nothing more then a dumb ass.

[gwenrowdy]

Ebo, do they think Blaze is going to make it?

[clint]

Isn't one of the reasons that the horses can't be returned from the final feedlot that they don't get border papers, coggins, etc.? None of this mess makes any sense whatsoever to me.

[catknsn]

Sannois...well, the reason the dark bay Thoroughbred shipped is because CBER chose to put the ludicrous price of $850 on an extremely head-shy senior Thoroughbred. In their own words on their web site: "Adam will not let anyone touch his poll or get near his ears so we did not attempt to bridle him. I would say without a lot of patience bridling Adam could be a challenge."

$850 is three times or more what he was actually worth for meat. Old Thoroughbreds have been auctioning in the PNW for $200 or less routinely. So when you wonder why he wound up in that condition, you have to look at all of the guilty parties, including those who attempt to turn rescue into a for-profit business.

What a damn shame. That was a really nice horse who didn't deserve any of this. People just make me sick.

[I'm EBO]

gwenrowdy, my information is third or fourth hand, but it's day to day with Blaze. I'll ask around and let you know.

Catnkn, just for once, can you get a grip and try not to lay the evils of the entire world at CBER's door? This thread is not a theater for "my rescue's better than your rescue." Rather the op wanted to show just how INhumane the process of slaughter really is.

[Sannois]

Hmmmm, is there another full moon already?

Exactly appaloosa lady!~ Popcorn?? Beer?? :D

[jetsmom]

EBO- thank you...I don't want to have a cber discussion. My point in the original post is that the public has a perception that horses that go to slaughter are unsound/crippled/injured, and that one of the reasons people might think that is if they were to see how many are injured during transport, that then get slaughtered, it would be easy to make that generalization. THese were two of the lucky ones due to being sick and severely injured, they were rejected.

[shireluver]

gwenrowdy, my information is third or fourth hand, but it's day to day with Blaze. I'll ask around and let you know.

Catnkn, just for once, can you get a grip and try not to lay the evils of the entire world at CBER's door? This thread is not a theater for "my rescue's better than your rescue." Rather the op wanted to show just how INhumane the process of slaughter really is.


You don't seem to understand, these horse were REJECTED from FP. They did not meet the standards. The sick, skinny, and blind horses ARE NOT slaughtered.

Just watch one video online of horse slaughter. How many skinny horses do you see?

I agree that slaughter is awful, inhumane, and should be stopped, but to talk about these 2 horses in particular and say look how horrible slaughter is, is just plain ignorant.

These horse are in horrible shape because somebody dropped the ball, between Chuck, FP, and CBER, somebody screwed up. FP will have a visit from authorities next week to find out if it was them. Yes, just like with other instances involving this "rescue" a group of us will make sure the proper authorities are contacted. If the "rescue" decides the grab the ball and run with it and make sure the person responsible pays, great. If not, we will.

One more thing, you're right. CBER is not responsible for the evils of the world, but they are responsible for their actions. Lying to their donors and supporters is wrong, ethically and morally.

Letting those two horse suffer in silence, then having thier fearless leader send out an e-mail to a supporter telling her that they may have to be euthanized due to their condition. Why didn't they know that a month ago? If the horses came back a month ago, and have made it this long, hopefully getting better, why would you euthanize them now? That is, unless a vet hasn't seen them until now and deems it necessary, and if that is the case, shame on CBER for not having them seen sooner, and making them suffer.

[WatersEdge]

Very well said, Shire!

You don't seem to understand, these horse were REJECTED from FP. They did not meet the standards. The sick, skinny, and blind horses ARE NOT slaughtered.

Just watch one video online of horse slaughter. How many skinny horses do you see?

I agree that slaughter is awful, inhumane, and should be stopped, but to talk about these 2 horses in particular and say look how horrible slaughter is, is just plain ignorant.

These horse are in horrible shape because somebody dropped the ball, between Chuck, FP, and CBER, somebody screwed up. FP will have a visit from authorities next week to find out if it was them. Yes, just like with other instances involving this "rescue" a group of us will make sure the proper authorities are contacted. If the "rescue" decides the grab the ball and run with it and make sure the person responsible pays, great. If not, we will.

One more thing, you're right. CBER is not responsible for the evils of the world, but they are responsible for their actions. Lying to their donors and supporters is wrong, ethically and morally.

Letting those two horse suffer in silence, then having thier fearless leader send out an e-mail to a supporter telling her that they may have to be euthanized due to their condition. Why didn't they know that a month ago? If the horses came back a month ago, and have made it this long, hopefully getting better, why would you euthanize them now? That is, unless a vet hasn't seen them until now and deems it necessary, and if that is the case, shame on CBER for not having them seen sooner, and making them suffer.

[FairWeather]

those pictures are awful.

But you know what is not awful? The ignore function. I've had County on mine ever since I realized all it did on this board is show up on the slaughter threads and try to piss people off. Ignore it, folks!

[Tikigator]

this may or may not be relevant....perhaps someone will know the "right" answer....

but, in response to "why were they rejected?"....I was told a couple years ago (which is why I microchipped my horses) that slaughter houses have to (not sure if this is "are supposed to" or "have to by law") check for microchips prior to accepting an animal. basically because anyone can go out and steal 10 horses, take them and sell them to a slaughter house, when in fact the horses were stolen and belong to someone.

because there is no other ID (other than tattoos which only TBs have, some other horses are freeze branded but that can be changed easliy and often hard to read) that in order to prevent stolen horses being sold to slaughter that they have to check for a chip.

On a long shot, perhaps these horses were chipped and seller could not prove ownership so they were rejected??

I was told this awhile back, like I said, which is why I chipped my horses and registered them with the company. so, I dunno if its true--if they ACTUALLY do check, but its a thought. :confused:

[luvmytbs]

this may or may not be relevant....perhaps someone will know the "right" answer....

but, in response to "why were they rejected?"....I was told a couple years ago (which is why I microchipped my horses) that slaughter houses have to (not sure if this is "are supposed to" or "have to by law") check for microchips prior to accepting an animal. basically because anyone can go out and steal 10 horses, take them and sell them to a slaughter house, when in fact the horses were stolen and belong to someone.

because there is no other ID (other than tattoos which only TBs have, some other horses are freeze branded but that can be changed easliy and often hard to read) that in order to prevent stolen horses being sold to slaughter that they have to check for a chip.

On a long shot, perhaps these horses were chipped and seller could not prove ownership so they were rejected??

I was told this awhile back, like I said, which is why I chipped my horses and registered them with the company. so, I dunno if its true--if they ACTUALLY do check, but its a thought. :confused:

slaughter houses do not require proof of ownership.
they do not check for microchips, they do however remove them as to not taint the meat.

[luvmytbs]

And as long as idiots like you keep calling people names that don't think like you will be nothing more then a dumb ass.

That's nice County, you are one class act. :no:

[philosoraptor]

I dont' think the arguement here is about slaughter. These horses were rejected. They are NOT the face of slaughter, they are the face of what slaughter houses don't want.

The thing upsetting people is the slaughter process. These are the weeks or more of neglect & abuse while the horse goes from his last real home to vanish into the slaughter system. It's going auction to auction, as a broker tries to get a few more bucks out of him. It's the weeks horses spend at a lot with zero medical care. It's the 1000+ mi overcrowded tractor-trailer rides, and up until recently it was done on double-decker trailer designed for cows. It's being dumped into another lot for weeks or more, who cares if the horse is injured, foundered, or sick. As soon as that horse is earmarked "for meat" he's treated as a hunk of dead meat, not a horse.

The Horse Slaughter Prevention Act isn't so much about that final few seconds in the kill room. It's about the months of absolute neglect they go through to get there. Have you seen the photos of the lame, exhausted horses being beaten to get them off the trucks? It's using cattle prods on downed horses in a trailer to get them back up & unloaded. It's the idea equine feedlots are not held to any standards of care, while the same behavior would get any of us hauled up in front of a judge for animal cruelty.

I'll bet you twenty bucks there will never be charges filed against anyone for what happened to these two horses.

Horses looking like them show up EVERY week at the sale-that-shall-not-be-named in PA. 300 hundred horses, a good % of which are showing obvious neglect, sold every Monday to anyone with money. Why aren't bad owners the least bit worried of repercussions when they dump off the product of their neglect in a public auction? It all goes back to this whole slaughter process: law enforcement simply wants nothing to do with "meat" animals. The system is broken -- it's been proven repeatedly -- suffering is an inextricably part of the American commercial equine slaughter process. So the only way we can protect horses is to realize it's not going to change and to support the ban.

[county]

luvmytbs thank you I've always felt when people make personal attacks one should do the same in return its the only way idiots know how to understand whats said.

[Daydream Believer]

Sannois...well, the reason the dark bay Thoroughbred shipped is because CBER chose to put the ludicrous price of $850 on an extremely head-shy senior Thoroughbred. In their own words on their web site: "Adam will not let anyone touch his poll or get near his ears so we did not attempt to bridle him. I would say without a lot of patience bridling Adam could be a challenge."

$850 is three times or more what he was actually worth for meat. Old Thoroughbreds have been auctioning in the PNW for $200 or less routinely. So when you wonder why he wound up in that condition, you have to look at all of the guilty parties, including those who attempt to turn rescue into a for-profit business.

What a damn shame. That was a really nice horse who didn't deserve any of this. People just make me sick.

That is a damn shame. Headshyness is not that hard to cure.

[county]

FairWeather all people have to do is look in my profile to see that slaughter threads are not all I post on so actually you have no clue what your talking about. There are some people on both sides of the issue that do only post on slaughter threads though perhaps you have me confused with them.

As far as pissing people off thats a choice each person makes for themselves I really doubt many are going to give me control over their emotions I'm only giving my opinion and asdking questions same as everyone else.

[cvl]

Catnkn, just for once, can you get a grip and try not to lay the evils of the entire world at CBER's door? This thread is not a theater for "my rescue's better than your rescue." Rather the op wanted to show just how INhumane the process of slaughter really is.


Thank you EBO. It is a shame that some find the need to point their fingers and blame CBER right from the start. I don’t think OP started this as a CBER bashing ~~ please let’s not take it there!

Proponents of horse slaughter feel it is the humane alternative. Is this a humane alternative???? In this particular instance, it appears that these horses were rejected, deemed too sick to be candidates for slaughter, but not too sick to be shipped all the way back to their point of origin??? How the heck does that figure?? And of course these horses ARE the face of “slaughter”. Just because they entered the system and were turned back doesn’t mean they aren’t. They entered a system that supporters claim is a humane alternative. From auctions, to transportation, to holding facilities, to slaughterhouses ~~ the system is broken! It fails miserably and yet it continues. The faces of these horses are just a small representation of that!

[county]

I find it ironic I'm EBO you don't want someone bashing another and on your first post to this thread you do the exact same thing. I don't think bashing and name calling bother you a bit to be honest.

[tbtrailrider]

FairWeather all people have to do is look in my profile to see that slaughter threads are not all I post on so actually you have no clue what your talking about. There are some people on both sides of the issue that do only post on slaughter threads though perhaps you have me confused with them.

As far as pissing people off thats a choice each person makes for themselves I really doubt many are going to give me control over their emotions I'm only giving my opinion and asdking questions same as everyone else.


Same ole, same ole...how come you have not posted on any of the threads about my horses feet, I would think you would have plenty to say about someone trimming their own horses hooves...;)

[county]

How come I haven't posted about your horses feet? How come alot of people haven't? If you know how to trim feet and want to do yours by all means do so.

[Angela Freda]

Isn't one of the reasons that the horses can't be returned from the final feedlot that they don't get border papers, coggins, etc.? None of this mess makes any sense whatsoever to me.

Florence Packing in Stanwood WA, whom CBER has accused of neglecting these horses, is not a final stop for these horses.
At FP they are fattened and quarantined and detoxed for a month, then shipped over the border to Canada for slaughter.
I do not believe a coggins is necessary in the state of WA at all. Horses this "rescue" sold in the last year ended up positive for EIA when they arrived at their "adoptive" homes, and were only tested because they went to another state. (that is my understanding, and I am sure someone will correct those facts if inaccurate)

I find it curious that the "rescue" has made no mention of prosecuting whomever is responsible for the negelct of these horses. The reason horrendous atrocities like this happen is because no one makes a stink about it, are afraid to get involved, or think it's none of their business.

When a "rescue" does not uphold the highest standards of 'business practices', they give ALL rescues a bad name. I hate for one bad apple to spoil the potential for good works by the other apples in the barrell.

[Angela Freda]

Catnkn, just for once, can you get a grip and try not to lay the evils of the entire world at CBER's door? This thread is not a theater for "my rescue's better than your rescue." Rather the op wanted to show just how INhumane the process of slaughter really is.

Wow, why so overreactive/defensive?

I did not get the feeling that Cat... was "laying the evils of the entire world at CBERs door", nor saying her "rescue was better than your rescue".

In fact I had no idea s/he had a rescue.
I think her point fits nicely in the questions of the humanity of slaughter... if people are marketing supposed slaughter horses for far more than their meat price, and calling themselves a "rescue"... well, I am not suprised that they get questioned about that and their other practices.

Rescues are part of the slaughter issue... as either part of the solution, or part of the problem, depending on how they are run, and how you look at them.

[bryn]

for those who could not access the photos:

Before they were shipped to Stanwood Packing:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/blaze2.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/adam2.jpg

When they returned to the feedlot after being rejected for slaughter:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/blaze5.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/Blaze3.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/adam3.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/pookeycat/adam1.jpg

Stanwood Packing assembles loads to slaughter. They have been cited by the USDA in the past for violating the safe transport to slaughter regs for several different violations, including using electric prods to move the horses. The USDA could cite Stanwood but not the feedlot owner for safe transport to slaughter violations since he is not the owner/shipper in USDA's eyes. I would assume local neglect/abuse laws would govern at the feedlot. Whether local abuse/neglect laws would apply at Stanwood, I do not know.

[jetsmom]

Ang- What EXACTLY would they prosecute? A sick horse was sent that was too sick to be accepted and another horse fell in the trailer and was severely injured which is common in DD transports. No one knows yet how long these horses were at the feedlot or when their injuries got treated. THe transport company is the only one I can see did anything wrong, by accepting a sick horse and shipping in unsafe conditions. This is a common FACT of the slaughter industry. It's why our slaughtering system is inhumane.
I could care less if someone wants a trained person,to use a captive bolt gun on their own horse, and they then eat the meat. It's the slaughter "process" I am against, everything from the sneaky ways some killer buyers get their horses by misrepresenting "homes" for them, the multiple auctions some go through before getting a long trailer ride in unsafe conditions to a feedlot where they are sometimes handled cruelly, to the actual slaughter where there is an unacceptable restraint system that results in a high "miss" rate.

[county]

jetsmom you may have missed it earlier but was wondering. Since you feel the AQHA endorses abuse and neglect because there pro slaughter do you also feel anti slaughter groups and people endorse the terrorists that attack pro slaughter people and business? And if not could you explain what the differance is.

[luvmytbs]

luvmytbs thank you I've always felt when people make personal attacks one should do the same in return its the only way idiots know how to understand whats said.


My reply was sarcastic, duh.....

[bryn]

let's stay on topic: horses in feedlot sent to slaughter agent and rejected by slaughter agent and returned to feedlot owner.

[jetsmom]

The AQHA endorses the current slaughter process. No where have I seen them state that the current system is inhumane or needs widespread reform.

I know of no anti horse slaughter groups that do the things you are accusing them of. Radical AR groups, yes, but not anti horse slaughter groups. Perhaps you can link me to some reports of Anti Horse slaughter people doing those things (not radical AR groups). I don't consider myself to be an AR activist but an Anti horse slaughter person.

[county]

Ah so that explains it as long as you see it your way I'll just do the same.

luvmytbs I knew that but duh back at ya.

[Angela Freda]

Ang- What EXACTLY would they prosecute?
I would prosecute whomever is responsible for the horses going from the condition they appeared to be in in their "before" pictures:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...cat/blaze2.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...ycat/adam2.jpg

And how they look in these pictures:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...cat/blaze5.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...cat/Blaze3.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...ycat/adam3.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...ycat/adam1.jpg

Whether that decline in condition occurred due to shipment (and injuries incurred therein), at the feedlot, or after being returned from the feedlot to the dealer lot, someone is responsible for the neglect and near starvation of these horses. Someone did not get one of them (the one who is just now getting Xrays of his skull) appropriate medical attention (imo) which may or may not have been part of their physical decline, beyond those hauling injuries.

[MySparrow]

Sweet lord, I don't know how anyone can feel anything but outrage and despair having seen photos like those.

Approve of slaughter or not, eat meat or not, a human heart must respond to that pain and suffering.

To suggest that that is just how it is, to change the subject rather than address the pain, to offer specious arguments in justification -- that is the language of the gulag and the gas chamber.

No one who professes to care for animals, who takes seriously the Bible's injunction to protect and care for the creatures under our dominion, who has a heart in their breast could look at those photos and feel anything but outrage and despair.

Dale

[Sannois]

Most of you spend more time getting all bent out of shape over County than anything else. Gee why does he get you all jazzed.. :lol:

[catknsn]

Wow, why so overreactive/defensive?

I did not get the feeling that Cat... was "laying the evils of the entire world at CBERs door", nor saying her "rescue was better than your rescue".

In fact I had no idea s/he had a rescue.
I think her point fits nicely in the questions of the humanity of slaughter... if people are marketing supposed slaughter horses for far more than their meat price, and calling themselves a "rescue"... well, I am not suprised that they get questioned about that and their other practices.

Rescues are part of the slaughter issue... as either part of the solution, or part of the problem, depending on how they are run, and how you look at them.

I don't have a rescue. However, I send money, when possible, to various rescues who put horses' best interests at heart. Marking up a horse 3x what its auction value is, without having invested time, feed, care and training into it, is destined to cause horses to go to kill.

Marking up AFTER you have put time, feed, training, hoof care, etc. into a horse? Fine, that is totally different. Apples and oranges.

But hey, since Ebo seems to want to discuss CBER, I'll ask: Why did CBER's president not hook up a truck and trailer and go get these horses immediately after Florence Packing rejected them? They were in excellent weight at the feedlot and did not lose all that weight in a few days time. She has a truck and trailer, so why the delay?

[ARM]

Okay, here are a few FACTS that can't be ignored when forming your opinions about this horrendous situation:

1. These horses were REJECTED at the Stanwood holding facility because they were too sick to be put into the mix there. This means they were probably put right back on a truck and sent back to the dealer in Yakima, where he was most likely fined and charged for a return trip. I do NOT believe for one minute that the Stanwood facility had any part in the starvation of these horses. They are heavily regulated by the USDA as they ship to Canada. They would NOT jeopardize their entire business by starving two horses. Think about it.

2. These horses were most likely returned on or about 10/13/06. However, CBER did not let any of their supporters know that they had been returned, regardless of what condition they were returned in. They had put each horses thread on their bulletin board under the section titled "Gone But Not Forgotten" and just let their members continue to post messages of condolences and grief about losing these horses to shipment. Not ONCE did anybody think that it might be nice to let those who were grieving celebrate in the return of these animals, even though they might not ultimately make it. They say they didn't want to get anybody's hopes up just in case they didn't make it. WHAT????? These aren't a bunch of kindergartners they are dealing with. These are good hearted people who open their wallets week after week because they think if they don't act fast enough, horses will ship. These people were left to feel guilty that they didn't do enough to save these horses and were left in the dark about their return. Nice, huh?

3. The only reason this was brought to light was out of the kindness of a member who knew that it was being kept secret and she chose to do the right thing instead of continue letting this group emotionally blackmail their members. I believe with all my heart and soul that CBER would NEVER have let on that these horses had been returned if this person had not stepped up.

4. Now that this has come to light, many, many questions are being asked. Important questions like the timeline, when they were returned, who had them since their return, and why are they just now receiving vet care. NONE of these questions are being answered. In fact, if a question is asked on their board, it is quickly deleted.

My big problem with this whole thing is that nobody is willing to admit anything. They are blaming the conditions of these horses on the holding facility. I say B.S. They are trying to make themselves look like saints for trying to "help" these horses when in fact, they have done nothing but cover this up and have denied someone who IS willing AND financially able to take not only these two, but another one who is very sick to a top-notch facility and take on their care herself. They want to keep these horses under their control because if they relinquish control, more of the story just might get out. IMO.

So, rationalize it all you want. But the fact remains that those who COULD answer the questions won't. And this isn't the first time.

[gwenrowdy]

Most of you spend more time getting all bent out of shape over County than anything else. Gee why does he get you all jazzed.. :lol:

No offense, Sannois, but there are more than a few posters on this thread that don't find anything about this matter the least bit amusing; in fact, we are heartsick.

[bryn]

The only blame that is certain here is the business of horse slaughter.

The only fact that is certain is that these horses were going to slaughter and were rejected.

Whether they were rejected because they were too sick or were rejected because one fell in the double decker and injured itself and the two others seriously enough to warrant rejection, or whether they were rejected because one looked cancerous and one was not able to bear weight on all fours has not be proven. And whether they waited one day or one week before being returned to the lot is conjecture on anyone's part here and that is more than worthless, so don't bother posting unless you have the TRUTH.

To sling mud at cber for the condition of the horses upon their return is suspect and those that try to lay blame there are the green eyed trolls we have come to recognize by what they say even though they change their names as often as the weather on this board and other boards.

Jetsmom is right. This is an excellent example of the horrors of horse slaughter and double decker transport of these horses.

Sooner or later everyone gets his or her just desserts so unless you have the TRUTH, I would be careful cause your devious spins may just end up biting you big time in the butt.

[shireluver]

To sling mud at cber for the condition of the horses upon their return is suspect and those that try to lay blame there are the green eyed trolls we have come to recognize by what they say even though they change their names as often as the weather on this board and other boards.




First off, I have never stated that CBER is responsible for thier condition. I'm pretty darn sure that CBER didn't starve these horses, maybe not provide the necessary medical care, but they didn't starve them. What I am hoping, is that by now, someone had the decency to at least brush poor Blaze's tail and get those burrs out.

Also, I go by the same name everywhere. I have no reason, nor do many of the others I know, to go by different names.

[bryn]

Wasn't aimed at you Shirelover. . . .

[Angela Freda]

But hey, since Ebo seems to want to discuss CBER, I'll ask: Why did CBER's president not hook up a truck and trailer and go get these horses immediately after Florence Packing rejected them? They were in excellent weight at the feedlot and did not lose all that weight in a few days time. She has a truck and trailer, so why the delay?

Is that truck/trailer her own personal property?
If so, and perhaps due to being asked to use it for the "rescue" often, she perhaps chose not to? (Devils advocate here)

[FalseImpression]

bashing Cber! They are after all the ones who are caring for the horses right now whether it is on their timeline, terms or whatever!

The bigger question I have is this:
If Stanwood can reject horses for illness, injury or whatever, so can all the other holding facilities around the country. The way I see it, those horses were not accepted by the holding facility which is under USDA regulations so FP probably does not have to do anything with them (ie feed them, care for them..). They belong to whomever shipped/brought them there.

In this particular case, we have a dealer who took them back. Even if it took a few days/weeks, he did take them back and dumped them on the people willing to look after them. Why blame them?
Ask yourselves what happens to the dozens (hundreds) of horses rejected everywhere. Do they get picked up? do they stay and starve? Are they euthanized? What happens to the ones rejected at a Mexican port of entry? Do you believe many dealers, who are driven by quickly made money, care at all? Think of how many do not come back to tell us their story. And maybe that is where your energy should be spent instead of spinning another tale about Cber.
Try and find out what happens to the ones who go through the Shelby, MT, feedlot?
I am not a Cber lover, but in this case, I think the critics are way out of line...

As I said, take a step back and get the bigger picture!!!

[Angela Freda]

so don't bother posting unless you have the TRUTH.

Are you now a moderator of CotH bb?
IS this one of the rules of posting on this public discussion forum?

To sling mud at cber for the condition of the horses upon their return is suspect and those that try to lay blame there are the green eyed trolls we have come to recognize by what they say even though they change their names as often as the weather on this board and other boards.

My name is a form of this name everywhere I post, m'dear.
What causes people to suspect CBER is their everpresent disinterest in being forthcoming with any information. Call me a green eyed troll if you must, but CBERs reputation precedes them... and that is not such a good thing anymore, and solely due to their own actions at/on a variety of forums.

Sooner or later everyone gets his or her just desserts so unless you have the TRUTH, I would be careful cause your devious spins may just end up biting you big time in the butt.

I agree 100%.
The people who caused these horses to be in this condition, and those who (perhaps) covered up this act of neglect either actively or by omission will certainly pay a price.

[Angela Freda]

The bigger question I have is this:
... The way I see it, those horses were not accepted by the holding facility which is under USDA regulations so FP probably does not have to do anything with them (ie feed them, care for them..). They belong to whomever shipped/brought them there.

You honestly believe that horses who are rejected stay at the feedlot and are starved with the USDA looking on?

The main supposition that CBER tells their members is that horses going into feedlots which are considered "sealed" facilities, are not supposed to be released... so Florence Packing certainly would not have allowed those horses onto their property after rejecting them due to health/injury... to later release them to the original shipper. Makes no sense based on what CBER has said on their website repeatedly.

Do I know this for a fact? No, as I said it's only based on what I have read on CBERs site, and about other 'sealed' feedlots.
But it just makes sense that either Florence denied these horses turning them away immediately upon rejection (therefore not having opportunity to neglect them)
OR, less believeably, Florence rejected them, but kept them onsite in a quarantine area, and of course fed them as the USDA is overseeing their every move.

Bottom line, we'll know more on Monday when Florence Packing is made aware of the allegations of Neglect that CBER has made publicly on their bulletin board.

[bryn]

AF I will add you to my ignore list. . . I am not interested in reading your fiction and I suggest others do the same.

[luvmytbs]

Here is a more recent picture of Adam, looks like he is being taken care of well. So much improved!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/luvmytbs/adamnovb.jpg

[luvmytbs]

but kept them onsite in a quarantine area, and of course fed them as the USDA is overseeing their every move.




Are you trying to imply that USDA inspectors are posted at holding pens for horses? Now wouldn't that be a perfect world....:lol:

[Angela Freda]

Of course not LMT, but they are regulated by the USDA.
And this particular lot just reopened, so may be subject to more/surprise visits from the USDA, State Ag or Vet.

Overseeing each pen at the lot?
Of course that is as ludacris as thinking that the rescue taking care of these horses will allow whoever did this to "walk". :lol:

[luvmytbs]

Of course not LMT, but they are regulated by the USDA.

And this particular lot just reopened, so may be subject to more/surprise visits from the USDA, State Ag or Vet.


:lol:


Very doubtful; the USDA is busy with cattle and other lifestock that is fed to Americans, you think they care about horses in transit to being slaughtered for overseas consumption?

The only place where they are actually visible are the slaughter houses, where they are required to be. Previously being paid by yours truely, the tax payer, now by the slaughter houses.


And where are they at the border to Mexico, where horses that are being rejected are left to starve because their prior owners are to cheap to retrieve them?

Where were they when that truckdriver hauling horses to Texas had a flat tire and bystanders noticed that the horses were bleeding from their heads and authorities were called, but the truck just sent on its merry way?

And where are they when horses arrive at the slaughter house on doubledeckers dead or badly injured? If they see it with their own eyes, it will get recorded, that's it. Woopdidoo.

[Angela Freda]

Very doubtful; the USDA is busy with cattle and other lifestock that is fed to Americans, you think they care about horses in transit to being slaughtered for overseas consumption?

The only place where they are actually visible are the slaughter houses, where they are required to be. Previously being paid by yours truely, the tax payer, now by the slaughter houses.


And where are they at the border to Mexico, where horses that are being rejected are left to starve because their prior owners are to cheap to retrieve them?

Where were they when that truckdriver hauling horses to Texas had a flat tire and bystanders noticed that the horses were bleeding from their heads and authorities were called, but the truck just sent on its merry way?

And where are they when horses arrive at the slaughter house on doubledeckers dead or badly injured? If they see it with their own eyes, it will get recorded, that's it. Woopdidoo.

I totally get yer point.
Which is why I HOPE that the "rescue" involved will make every effort to contact the authorities and get this situation prosecuted.

[Loreli]

AF, from listening to you, slaughter must be a very humane process indeed. After all, the USDA inspectors are watching, right?

People, this is exactly why most people are against horse slaughter. Not because the horses are killed and eaten, but because of how they are treated BEFORE they are killed. The only difference between this time and every other time a horse is sent to slaughter is simply that now the affects that we have all suspected, are visible.

[Angela Freda]

OK to be crystal clear...

This slaughter thing is SUPPOSED to be highly regulated.
There are standards of care, regulations, and protocol for every step of the process.

AND YET horses end up like this.
AND YET horses who are not legal to ship, do.
AND YET horses die, or are injured in trailer crashes.
AND YET there is an unacceptable (to me) rate of misses with the bolt.

MY point, for those who seem to be missing it (and apparently can not "get" irony/facetiousness) is that if those regulations are not being followed, by whomever, those who know about that failure need to report it, to the local AC, the State Vet, The USDA, maybe write letters, fax and call the owners of the facility,... whatever it takes. No the authorities are not everpresent at the lots, plants and on the trailers. So it's up to those who witness digression to report it!

Otherwise, imo, the person who refuses to report is part of the problem, not the solution.
And without alot of noise each and everytime the current regulations are not regarded, those arguing for slaughter can perhaps honestly report that they are in compliance.

I ask again, what is the 'rescue' who was made aware of the neglect of these horses doing to prosecute those responsible?
(Edited for spelling)

[county]

I don't think I'll ever understand how people can want to shut down one slaughter industry for the exact same things the others do such as cattle, hogs etc. Is it because since you eat those species it just doesn't bother you?

[bryn]

mooooooooo. . . is this Chronicle of the Cow?

[county]

No actually its of the horse. Your point is?

[Lildunhorse]

Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't "get" irony or facetiousness, which are two entirely different things by the way, it's just that I chose to ignore them.

I have lived by Florence Packing for years. I have complained about Florence Packing repeatedly. I have begged the local newspaper to investigate and report what really goes on there. I have talked to USDA agents, animal control officers and my State Representative.

Read Title 9. It is one of the most ambiguous government documents I have ever read.

To me, Adam and Blaze are about the ambiguity that surrounds the horse slaughter industry and allows these magnificent creatures to fall through the cracks. Not CBER, not Florence Packing, not the individual agendas that have presented themselves here in the opportunisitic fashion they usually do...the ambiguity that allows horses to starve and succumb to illness and injury, whether in the Washington rain, or the Mexican border sun.

I was never quite so sick of the human race until I started dabbling in horse rescue.

[ClassiCalRanch]

It is slaughter itself, the quality of horses being shipped and what happens to them enroute and at the plants that we should be looking at. Instead (predictably) we have Ang Freda and her crew attempting to use it as a weapon. TYPICAL.

There are many threads on a number of boards discussing these horses, and accusations that no questions are being answered. Well AFTER the horse was done getting a new set of Xrays and the horses were fed and cared for a post was made updating them where it belonged.

So a bored NY housewife claims she is owed updates?? When she isn't even a member?? All she does with any information she does manage to scrounge is use it to make harrassing false reports and waste taxpayer money having them investigated.

The horses were shipped, they were rejected, and they were returned. Dunno how, don't care. They were fighting to live and heal, and they are succeeding! You want to make a difference spend a day working to stop slaughter instead of trying to stop a rescue. You want CBER closed down? Then try helping to end slaughter.

STOP picking on folks who are caring for horses and saving them from slaughter.. of course Ang thats only when you aren't visiting your dead/miraculously resurected horse that someone else feeds and shovels after. If he does/did ever exist.

[EqTrainer]

unless people will accept the fact more plants need to be built and are willing to pay more money for food the system isn't going to get changed.



Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner here!

Maybe if everyone who eats meat, stopped eating meat slaughtered in such a way to make it inexpensive for the consumer, and only ate humanely butchered meat, this would stop.

I wish people would put their checkbooks where their mouth is..

[Paragon]

Most of you spend more time getting all bent out of shape over County than anything else. Gee why does he get you all jazzed.. :lol:

Sometimes, I think that's WHY people post on these slaughter threads. They all know county's stance - they must, given that I recognise a number of the usual suspects - yet they continue coming here to cry outrage, as if they're hearing county for the first time. Ohmigod, shock! It's like a big BAIT COUNTY party, and everyone gets to feign indignance all over again.

Good times.

[appaloosalady]

Can anybody really tell me that horses only end up looking like this because slaughter is legal? Seems like that is what a lot of people are saying, which is just too ridiculous for words. Abuse and neglect are going to continue whether slaughter is legal or not, horses are going to be starved in backyards if not in feedlots. I thought this thread was about 2 specific horses and how they ended up in the condition they are now in, not about slaughter in general, yet anybody who has the guts to ask point blank questions about responsibility or denial thereof is tarred and feathered. Well, let the train barrel on ......

Sannois - Margaritas??

[JumpingPaints]

jetsmom you may have missed it earlier but was wondering. Since you feel the AQHA endorses abuse and neglect because there pro slaughter do you also feel anti slaughter groups and people endorse the terrorists that attack pro slaughter people and business? And if not could you explain what the differance is.Hi county, I do know of two anti-slaughter people who received death threats as a result of their work (Wild Horse Annie and John Holland), but I too would like to see actual reports of these anti-slaughter "terrorists" you speak of.

[county]

I've answered that question before JP same answer now as when you've asked before.

[Sannois]

Can anybody really tell me that horses only end up looking like this because slaughter is legal? Seems like that is what a lot of people are saying, which is just too ridiculous for words. Abuse and neglect are going to continue whether slaughter is legal or not, horses are going to be starved in backyards if not in feedlots. I thought this thread was about 2 specific horses and how they ended up in the condition they are now in, not about slaughter in general, yet anybody who has the guts to ask point blank questions about responsibility or denial thereof is tarred and feathered. Well, let the train barrel on ......

Sannois - Margaritas??

From the beginning.. I was trying to figure out how the starvation of 2 horses had anything to do with slaughter.
OH and I think I hear a loose wheel appaloosalady! Better start mixing!!:D

[Sannois]

Sometimes, I think that's WHY people post on these slaughter threads. They all know county's stance - they must, given that I recognise a number of the usual suspects - yet they continue coming here to cry outrage, as if they're hearing county for the first time. Ohmigod, shock! It's like a big BAIT COUNTY party, and everyone gets to feign indignance all over again.

Good times.
So its merely a source of amusement. An internet boredom reliever so to speak! I agree!

:winkgrin:

[gwenrowdy]

So its merely a source of amusement. An internet boredom reliever so to speak! I agree!

:winkgrin:

Tell that to Blaze and Adam.

[philosoraptor]

Can anybody really tell me that horses only end up looking like this because slaughter is legal? Seems like that is what a lot of people are saying,

Some people don't have the conscience to take care of animals properly on their own, so we created anti-cruelty laws.

Anti-cruelty laws do not apply to "meat" animals. The very mimimal laws that might exist are enforced by USDA, the very government dept in charge of protecting the price of meat by keeping it safe. USDA is not interested in stopping suffering, having compassion, or doing the right thing.

Until slaughter is banned, any horse can be written off as a "meat" animal. Any injustice can be commited on a horse, and as long as the dying horse will eventally be dropped off at slaughter, it's ok. If we caught anyone here with skeletons for horses, you'd have the horses seized and charges filed. If you do the same thing and drop off the poor beasts at a livestock (meat) auction, nobody will raise an eyebrow AND you get paid (which I have seen repeatedly firsthand)

Therefore, unless we're going to start creating & enforcing care/cruelty laws against all livestock (not going to happen), the only want to prevent cruelty against this section of the horse population is to revoke the "meat" label.

And by removing the meat markets as dumping grounds, anyone with half a brain in their head will realise they can no longer work a horse down to skin & bones and still get money for him. People will have to keep their horses in better condition if they expect to resell them.

[luvmytbs]

Some people don't have the conscience to take care of animals properly on their own, so we created anti-cruelty laws.

Anti-cruelty laws do not apply to "meat" animals. The very mimimal laws that might exist are enforced by USDA, the very government dept in charge of protecting the price of meat by keeping it safe. USDA is not interested in stopping suffering, having compassion, or doing the right thing.

Until slaughter is banned, any horse can be written off as a "meat" animal. Any injustice can be commited on a horse, and as long as the dying horse will eventally be dropped off at slaughter, it's ok. If we caught anyone here with skeletons for horses, you'd have the horses seized and charges filed. If you do the same thing and drop off the poor beasts at a livestock (meat) auction, nobody will raise an eyebrow AND you get paid (which I have seen repeatedly firsthand)

Therefore, unless we're going to start creating & enforcing care/cruelty laws against all livestock (not going to happen), the only want to prevent cruelty against this section of the horse population is to revoke the "meat" label.

And by removing the meat markets as dumping grounds, anyone with half a brain in their head will realise they can no longer work a horse down to skin & bones and still get money for him. People will have to keep their horses in better condition if they expect to resell them.

Great point MayS

[appaloosalady]

Actually MayS, that is not true. I have seen the police called in more than once at local auctions when horses have been brought in in condition like that. It is not acceptable or legal to starve any animal. But back to the point I was making - are you trying to tell me that by making slaughter illegal you are going to end all starvation of all horses? I still firmly believe, no matter what anybody tries to say to the contrary, that MORE horses are going to end up starving in backyards, not less. Statistics people are touting saying that it isn't true really don't mean much to me because how many horses do you think are starved and neglected to death without anybody ever knowing about it? I'm sure the people responsible aren't going around bragging about it and horses are pretty easy to hide "out back". I would still like to know why this turned into a slaughter discussion instead of a discussion about who is responsible for the condition of those two horses - it is pretty clear that it's not the feedlot, so what does slaughter really have to do with it?

[appaloosalady]

Tell that to Blaze and Adam.

I don't think anybody is laughing or finding amusement in what happenned to those horses. It is more about why people are so quick to have the same pi$$ing contest over and over again instead of just ignoring it and moving on with the discussion.

[gwenrowdy]

I don't think anybody is laughing or finding amusement in what happenned to those horses. It is more about why people are so quick to have the same pi$$ing contest over and over again instead of just ignoring it and moving on with the discussion.

So move on with the discussion.

[county]

Looks like everyone has except you.

[jetsmom]

From the beginning.. I was trying to figure out how the starvation of 2 horses had anything to do with slaughter.
OH and I think I hear a loose wheel appaloosalady! Better start mixing!!:D

Sannois- These horses were injured and trampled being transported to slaughter in a crowded trailer. Blaze also had severe strangles.

[county]

So I have to ask does anyone really think someone or a lawyer will go in front of say the Senate or a court of law and say " horses get injured in transport so slaughter should be baned " And not expect anyone to ask the obvious question " so should we ban any species from slaughter that gets injured in transport?" Do you really beleive thats a reason to outlaw something?

By far the worst case of animal neglect and abuse I've been involved with was a dairy case. We found 60 dairy cows locked in their stanchions with no food. They had licked the cement so long they went through it down to the dirt. 6 were dead we had to destroy 10 more the rest could hardly walk. There was plenty of hay and grain in the barn.

Of the 6 of us on that case not once did I hear anyone say " we need to ban milk so this can't happen "

[Paragon]

By far the worst case of animal neglect and abuse I've been involved with was a dairy case. We found 60 dairy cows locked in their stanchions with no food. They had licked the cement so long they went through it down to the dirt. 6 were dead we had to destroy 10 more the rest could hardly walk. There was plenty of hay and grain in the barn.

Of the 6 of us on that case not once did I hear anyone say " we need to ban milk so this can't happen "

Worth repeating again and again. Thanks for this example, county. How tragic.

And it's sad to think that so many people will dismiss this as being irrelevant, as it doesn't have anything to do with horses. It's the same situation, folks. I don't care if you all think that cows aren't worthy of humane treatment, as seems to be the case from such ardent dismissals of this situation. We cannot be selective in the suffering of animals. We need to find a way to run our food industries so that all animals may live and die with dignity. It's not hard to get people to agree on this. With this agreement, we can implement positive change, rather than tying up our government in an ugly debate that even horse people cannot agree upon. What a waste of resources, when we could be up there, making a difference for animals now - and not just horses.

It boggles the mind.

[appaloosalady]

:yes: Well said Paragon. Unfortunately, most anti-slaughter people are all or nothing and the numerous threads on COTH show that they will never be willing to find a "middle ground".

[Sannois]

Actually MayS, that is not true. I have seen the police called in more than once at local auctions when horses have been brought in in condition like that. It is not acceptable or legal to starve any animal. But back to the point I was making - are you trying to tell me that by making slaughter illegal you are going to end all starvation of all horses? I still firmly believe, no matter what anybody tries to say to the contrary, that MORE horses are going to end up starving in backyards, not less. Statistics people are touting saying that it isn't true really don't mean much to me because how many horses do you think are starved and neglected to death without anybody ever knowing about it? I'm sure the people responsible aren't going around bragging about it and horses are pretty easy to hide "out back". I would still like to know why this turned into a slaughter discussion instead of a discussion about who is responsible for the condition of those two horses - it is pretty clear that it's not the feedlot, so what does slaughter really have to do with it?
How is it the Slaughter industries fault?? The horses were fat, Sent to slaughter, rejected because of injuries?? and then shipped back. They dont house horses at the slaughter houses, so they were sent where?? Who dropped the ball?? it is not the slaughterhouses responsibility to take care of rejected horses. Were these animals brought to an auction by a private owner???

[Angela Freda]

Instead (predictably) we have Ang Freda and her crew attempting to use it as a weapon. TYPICAL.

Typical of some supporters we have personal attacks rather than answers or information to clarify the situation. ClassiCal this is not about me, or about you... it's about the abuses of the slaughter industry, the neglect that these two horses endured,... and for some, it's about what does the "rescue" involved intend to do to make the perpetrators accountable in this case and others they have been involved in other than make potentially libelous, unsubstantiated accusations?

So ClassiCal/Tockita, what do I get this time around, will you make me another fictitious Craigslist ad or two using my name and e-mail address?
Or are you intending to create another touching website where you call those who question this rescue very Girl Scout friendly names all starting with "K" and rhyming with "Hunt" and posting our real names and e-mail addresses for all kinds of internet whackos?

With people taking actions such as the ones you yourself have on CBErs behalf, is it any wonder people question their sincerity/honesty/credability?

[Angela Freda]

Who dropped the ball?? it is not the slaughterhouses responsibility to take care of rejected horses. Were these animals brought to an auction by a private owner???

Supposedly the horses were rejected from the feedlot and returned to the person who presented them at the lot. They later appeared on the rescues website in this condition. Where the neglect occured, and who is aware of the perpetrator, is the real question.

[I'm EBO]

MayS, I've been wondering what the result would be if all of us who are anti-horse slaughter, and also want humane treatment for food animals, would simply go vegetarian for a time--for instance the amount of time it takes
SB1915 to get through the Senate. If the reason behind the change in eating habits was announced, would it gain the attention of the packing plants, slaughter houses, fast food outlets and all-powerful cattlemen's associations?

If we voted with our wallets, instead of wasting time arguing with the pro-horse slaughter people, perhaps we wouldn't have to publish such sad stories of horses like Adam and Blaze.

[philosoraptor]

Actually MayS, that is not true. I have seen the police called in more than once at local auctions when horses have been brought in in condition like that.

But the million dollar question -- were charges filed? Were they convinctions? Police showing up to placate a 'do gooder' isn't the same as a DA who wants charges to stick and an example made.

(sorry to disagree. I've just become very cynical on this topic after seeing calls to police ignored at the big 300+ horse weekly auction in my region)

It is not acceptable or legal to starve any animal.

This my horse (http://www.mayleen.com/personal/chester1.jpg) the day I bought him. He came from that big sale. He has every vertrabrea showing. The one vet said that he was so far gone, don't be suprised if he doesn't make it (somehow he did).

Every week that same auction has dozens (or more?) horses looking just like him... walking skeletons. Auction house doesn't refuse to sell them. Brokers don't refuse to bid on them. And the regulars know the police don't come if called for things like this.

It's also illegal to sell blind horses to slaughter in PA. Yet somehow my friend Jen bought this App gelding from this sale (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/DSC03029w.jpg) for $35. Please look at his photo. He wasn't meaty enough for the killers and the auctioneer didn't know what to do with him. Totally BLIND in both eyes and look at his condition. Oh, but wait, this is a meat sale, so we treat them as hunks of meat not horses. :no:

There are lots of pics others have taken of this place; it's not just me thinking there's something wrong there:
http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/images/scover.jpg
http://errphotos.tripod.com/0b62ce10.jpg
http://errphotos.tripod.com/0b12ce10.jpg
http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/images/starve/starve8.jpg
http://largeanimalprotectionsociety.org/images/nell.jpg

300 horses+ every Monday go there, and people are PAID no matter how neglected the animal is. What's wrong with the world that we're paying people for the product of their abuse? :eek:

Here's one my rescue org pulled from the same place in May, very underweight, no dental care, and covered in current harness sores:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/6ed74cea.jpg

You've got to love those feet. "What does 'farrier' mean?"
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/3010.jpg

The stupid thing is he's almost worthless in that state for meat, but it still took $250 to save his life. Why should his owner donate him to a rescue or euthanize him when he can get $250 cash for the skeleton? Why bother putting costly feed into him if people will buy him like this?

And at some sale barns, such as another livestock/horse sale in Lancaster County area, they ban all cameras and will kick out anyone who isn't there only to buy. There are huge signs on every doorway: no cameras or recording devices. Bascially not only are they accepting severely neglected animals to resell, they're hiding the evidence for their consigners.

It's just business at usual.

But back to the point I was making - are you trying to tell me that by making slaughter illegal you are going to end all starvation of all horses? I still firmly believe, no matter what anybody tries to say to the contrary, that MORE horses are going to end up starving in backyards, not less.

That's a false arguement. In 1998 the state of California made horse slaughter illegal. Horse abuse/neglect did not peak in result. There aren't stray horses wandering the streets. California didn't develop a reputation for starving horses. While some can be hidden, you can't hide every neglected horse in a state... some would be found.

Nobody is trying to say it'll end "all" starvation. What we're saying is that we're removing the economic benefit and the legal permission to do so. We're saying no to the "meat" loophole that's been protecting the abusers.

I would still like to know why this turned into a slaughter discussion instead of a discussion about who is responsible for the condition of those two horses - it is pretty clear that it's not the feedlot, so what does slaughter really have to do with it?

As I understand it, they were shipped from the one feedlot to another slaughter supplier's holding pen. (someone correct me if I misunderstood the exact chain of events)

For whatever reason they weren't prompty shipped to slaughter. If slaughter did not exist we would not have these feedlots and slaughter-buyer holding pens. If slaughter did not exist, charges would be filed against the person or company who allowed those two to be starved. Right now no DA is going to touch this case -- they're just "meat" horses after all.

If those two horses were shipped from a regular horse owner to another horse owner, you better believe someone would be investigated by Animal Control.

[philosoraptor]

One thing I'd like to add so nobody thinks only skeletons go to killbuyers:

For every skeleton we see going through those kinds of sales, there are countless "meaty" horses bought by the kill buyers as well. If anything, the meatier the better.

My name is Betty (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/DSC03019w.jpg) and I was found in a loading pen after the one meat sale. A nice lady bought me for a few hundred dollars and now I live in NY. There were a lot of big drafts at the sale I was put in, and with so many drafts and with it being January and few buyers, I got unlucky.

My name is Spongey (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/DSC03285w.jpg)and I was in the same killpen as Betty. I was definitely slated for kill. My former owner never trimmed my feet and they were not only twisted in a distorted banana shape, they started to rot with canker (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/DSC03040w.jpg). I am now cured of canker and available for adoption at a rescue in Maryland.

My name is Malcolm the mule (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/horses/DSC03029w.jpg)(left) and I also came through a meat sale for a few hundred dollars. Nobody else wanted me because I'm an older mule and buyers wanted horses. There's nothing wrong with me a little extra grooming, deworming, and food didn't fix. I'm now in upstate NY enjoying some time off.

My name is Chip the quarterhorse (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/funchy/DSC07649w.jpg). I was run through that big meat sale last fall along with about 30 other grade quarterhorses, dumped from a big ranch in Oklahoma. Guess they couldn't afford the hay last winter? Anyway, some of my buddies were bought by people known to be killbuyers. The only difference between them and me is that I got lucky and got a 2nd chance. I am young (5), sound, and a beautiful mover, and I just got adopted by a nice teenage girl who's taking me to college in SC.

These are the stories of tens of thousands of horses every year: nice horses... just unlucky.

[appaloosalady]

So MayS, tell me where these starving horses are coming from and why stopping slaughter is going to stop them from being starved????? Most slaughter buyers DON"T WANT STARVED HORSES.... they want the fit, fat ones, that is where they make their money and how they keep their contractors happy. Why do they buy the starved ones, if they do? Because they are usually the only bidders. Hmmm, so much for the theory of "there is no such thing as an unwanted horse". The slaughter industry didn't starve the horse in the first place, private owners did. The slaughter people are just cleaning up the refuse of an industry with issues of its own.

[I'm EBO]

For those of you who are claiming to be "Proud members of Team Barbaro", are you aware that Mr & Mrs. Jackson are opposed to horse slaughter? (We can probably assume the Barbaro wouldn't approve either.)

YET: appaloosalady types statements such as "The slaughter people are just cleaning up the refuse of an industry with issues of its own."

I'm appalled that people who are hoping for Barbaro's survival would refer to other injured horses as "refuse".

[appaloosalady]

For those of you who are claiming to be "Proud members of Team Barbaro", are you aware that Mr & Mrs. Jackson are opposed to horse slaughter? (We can probably assume the Barbaro wouldn't approve either.)

YET: appaloosalady types statements such as "The slaughter people are just cleaning up the refuse of an industry with issues of its own."

I'm appalled that people who are hoping for Barbaro's survival would refer to other injured horses as "refuse".

I don't have to agree with everything about one person in order to support their horse and wish for his recovery :rolleyes: .

As far as my "refuse" statement - the horse industry obviously has issues above and beyond slaughter when horses are showing up at auctions starved close to death. Shouldn't that issue be looked at on its own merit instead of trying to pin all evils on the slaughter industry? Oh wait, I'm sure those lovely people wouldn't have starved their horses if they didn't think they could sell them at the auction. Sorry, but that is just a load of cr@p. Horses that no one wants are refuse - I didn't make them that way, you didn't make them that way, but somebody sure as heck did - and it wasn't the slaughter industry!

[philosoraptor]

So MayS, tell me where these starving horses are coming from and why stopping slaughter is going to stop them from being starved?????

These horses aren't unwanted; they're unlucky. There's a world of difference.

The specific ones I described in my last post are all currently in good homes. We don't have a problem finding homes for the horses once they're nursed back to health. I wouldn't call that unwanted.

But if you're convinced through and through people are determined to starve horses no matter what, then nothing I say will change your mind and you can just ingore the rest of my post. I just don't see the matter as being that simple. I think we have more control over who starves/neglects horses and why.

Most slaughter buyers DON"T WANT STARVED HORSES.... they want the fit, fat ones, that is where they make their money and how they keep their contractors happy. Why do they buy the starved ones, if they do?

Then tell me who is buying the tired, starved, hooves-curled-up horses then? A few are bought by overly sentimental people like myself and other rescuers. However, at auction I see who I am bidding against. It's the same regular buyers who come every week looking to fill up their huge trailers.

If only fat horses brought money, why are there any bids at all on the skin-and-bones ones? Why couldn't I have gotten skeleton Chester for $25 instead of $275?

If slaughter people were logical why would they have let those two nice horses in the original post get emaciated?

Because they are usually the only bidders. Hmmm, so much for the theory of "there is no such thing as an unwanted horse".

Not all horse owners buy from an auction. There are homes out there for these horses, but they're usually individuals who can't or won't buy at low-end auctions.

Do you buy all of your own horses from auctions? Probably not. Most of us will go through a trainer, private party ads, or trusted reputable reseller first. It does not mean horses at the auction barn are undesirable; it means buying a horse at a low-end auction is undesirable. This particular auction I keep referring to gives no warranty of soundness or usability, no medical records, and in many cases no registration/papers. You can't inspect the animals the night before, you can't ride them in a ring, and vetting them is extremely hard. Some of them are being brought in after the auction begins, leaving only a short time for buyers to inspect them.

The slaughter industry didn't starve the horse in the first place, private owners did. The slaughter people are just cleaning up the refuse of an industry with issues of its own.

You make it sound altruistic: you're saying the slaughter people are doing the horse world a favor. The problem with that logic is that the slaughter plants are driven by the demand for horsemeat overseas, not by the surplus of horses here. The slaughter people are also not thinking twice about killing a young, healthy quarter horse and leaving an old, arthritic buggy horse behind to suffer. They buy what their contracts tell them to buy. If meat demand dropped in Europe for totally unrelated reasons, do you think they'd still keep the plants open?

They're not cleaning up peoples' refuse, they are giving people the incentive to turn good horses into refuse. Why should a farmer buy expensive grain when he can work the horses one last planting season and then discard them for $250 each? Why should a commercial horse stable get their laminitic horse vet care when he can fill her full of bute and drop her of at the sale or feedlot for an easy $350? Why should a bored horse owner who has neglected their horse all year consider giving away or donating the horse when they can get a quick $300 cash on Monday? The message we're giving is: "do whatever you please to your horse as long as you throw him away in a feedlot when you're done"

I'm not sure how to rephrase the explanation about the law, but I'll try. As long as there is legal US horse slaughter, any horse broker can do what he pleases under the guise of these being "meat" horses on the way to (eventual) way to slaughter. Eventual could be days or it could be weeks or months. This is, in a sense, legalizing neglect/abuse of any horses by anyone who does some business with a horse feedlot or slaughter plant.

There is also the misconception that slaughter is a quick end. The reality is that some horses are trucked from sale to feedlot to transfer lot to wherever. It may be months before the slaughter plant calls in their order for young quarterhorse types. In the meantime that foundering horse is stuck there, barely able to stand and in excruciating pain... for weeks or months. This is what we mean by the slaughter process -- it's the chain of places the horse goes to when he's dumped from his final good home into the stream that eventually ends at the Tx or Il slaughterhouses. And none of those places along the way is required to provide vet care, separate out a bullied animal, or do anything if a horse fractures his leg.

I object to the whole double-standard:
· If I starve a horse, I'd have my farm raided & animals seized. They starve a horse and it's in the name of cutting costs in the meat production business.
· If I beat a horse, I'd be charged with abuse. They do it, and it's in the name of emptying the trailer of a downed horse who won't get up otherwise.
· If I use an electric cattle prod on a horse, I'd probably have ten other horse people chase me down with cattle prods. If the guy at the feedlot does it to get that badly foundered mare to take a few steps off the trailer, it's a "necessary motivational tool".
· If I have Strangles on my barn, I must quarantine. If a feedlot gets strangles, they don't need to call a vet much less alter their production schedule.
· If I want to transport horses cross-country, I need a negative Coggins and health certificate on every horse. If they do it, all they need is that @#@# cattle prod to get those "damn animals" to load.
· If I buy a horse and then have doubts about where it came from, as an ethical horse owner I need to check to make sure it's not stolen. The slaughter plants not only pay cash for horses without documented ownership, they generally don't bother matching tattoos or microchips before killing. How convenient!

Here is food for thought:

Not only did neglect/abuse not go up when California banned horse slaughter, one source is quoted as saying horse theft dropped in the state 34% once the law was passed.

[appaloosalady]

Excellent post MayS !! That is the kind of rational, fact filled post that will help you gain supporters. I still believe that there is a place for the slaughter industry, and I will never support an all out ban, but I am in full support of stricter guidlines in handling and transport - for all animals - not just horses. We are always going to have different opinions about some aspects of the problem, but I respect your beliefs and your way of expressing them.

[catknsn]

MayS, I just want to applaud your posts...very well written and said as someone who has clearly been to the sales.

They're not cleaning up peoples' refuse, they are giving people the incentive to turn good horses into refuse.

Exactly. That's exactly it.

[FalseImpression]

Excellent post MayS. I will save it!!! Thank you

[Gisela]

Read this
http://www.horse-protection.org/pdf/Relationship-of-Abuse-to-Slaughter.pdf

[luvmytbs]

Standing Ovation, MayS

[zjaraam]

Thank you MayS for stating so clearly and directly the thoughts of many. Well stated.

[EqTrainer]

MayS, thank you for your eloquent and realistic posts.

[Daydream Believer]

MayS...I want to thank you also. You hit the nail on the head.

[moonriverfarm]

Will someone PLEASE send county a grammar and spelling book to study in between his ranting about how wonderful the slaughter industry is? He seems not to have much to do but that.

[equinelaundry]

Thank you MayS for writing so eloquently and for all you do on a daily basis.

[philosoraptor]

Aw shucks guys. You're going to give me a swelled head. Thank you... you made my day. :D

[county]

moonriverfarm I think your a liar, show me where I said the slaughter industry is wonderful? I don't think you have a clue at all about anything I've said you see that I'm pro slaughter and thats as far as your very small brain can take anything.

[appaloosalady]

Will someone PLEASE send county a grammar and spelling book to study in between his ranting about how wonderful the slaughter industry is? He seems not to have much to do but that.

This is the kind of post that will completely take away any kind of goodwill gained by an educated, well spoken poster like MayS.You need to control your irrational outbursts and stick to facts and theory.

[I'm EBO]

Actually, as grating as county's posts are to read, I think he has done more to promote the anti-slaughter sentiment wherever he posts than have many anti-slaughter people.

He's made quite a name for the rank-and-file pro-slaughter people by painting a very telling portrait of those who support horse slaughter.

[appaloosalady]

Actually, as grating as county's posts are to read, I think he has done more to promote the anti-slaughter sentiment wherever he posts than have many anti-slaughter people.

He's made quite a name for the rank-and-file pro-slaughter people by painting a very telling portrait of those who support horse slaughter.

How? By pointing out that horses aren't the only animals being slaughtered in this country and that a ban as written right now isn't worth the paper it is written on, or by fighting back when insulted and called ignorant names? Pot meet kettle ....

[county]

ROTFLMAO Beleive me I'm EBO the anti slaughter people here have done the same thing. When I first came here I beleived most anti people were willing to work with others and had an open mind. Since coming here I've found thats not true at all. They are into calling names, making threats, and could care less about horses. There into themselves and their agenda.

[caffeinated]

Not only did neglect/abuse not go up when California banned horse slaughter...

The thing I don't understand about this is that I don't see how banning slaughter in one state could really make a huge difference. Horses are shipped all over the country, sometimes to several sales in several states before ending up on their way to slaughter- just because it's banned in CA doesn't mean horses sold in CA don't end up there. And since there wasn't a plant in CA in the first place, I fail to see how their ban really changed anything as far as how horses are bought and sold there.

I'm just saying that every time CA statistics are quoted (and since there were no hard numbers on horse abuse cases before the ban was enacted, it seems difficult to compare, unless the things I have read are wrong), I don't see how it really means anything in terms of supporting a "side" in this debate...

[county]

Just because CA. banned slaughter hardly means anything. Horses are still hauled out of state to slaughter. Some to Mex. many to Tx. Many of my family members live in AZ. and know meat buyers there that haul horses from Ca. every month.

[Windontide]

The thing upsetting people is the slaughter process. These are the weeks or more of neglect & abuse while the horse goes from his last real home to vanish into the slaughter system. It's going auction to auction, as a broker tries to get a few more bucks out of him. It's the weeks horses spend at a lot with zero medical care. It's the 1000+ mi overcrowded tractor-trailer rides, and up until recently it was done on double-decker trailer designed for cows. It's being dumped into another lot for weeks or more, who cares if the horse is injured, foundered, or sick. As soon as that horse is earmarked "for meat" he's treated as a hunk of dead meat, not a horse.

The Horse Slaughter Prevention Act isn't so much about that final few seconds in the kill room. It's about the months of absolute neglect they go through to get there. Have you seen the photos of the lame, exhausted horses being beaten to get them off the trucks? It's using cattle prods on downed horses in a trailer to get them back up & unloaded. It's the idea equine feedlots are not held to any standards of care, while the same behavior would get any of us hauled up in front of a judge for animal cruelty.

I'll bet you twenty bucks there will never be charges filed against anyone for what happened to these two horses.

Horses looking like them show up EVERY week at the sale-that-shall-not-be-named in PA. 300 hundred horses, a good % of which are showing obvious neglect, sold every Monday to anyone with money. Why aren't bad owners the least bit worried of repercussions when they dump off the product of their neglect in a public auction? It all goes back to this whole slaughter process: law enforcement simply wants nothing to do with "meat" animals. The system is broken -- it's been proven repeatedly -- suffering is an inextricably part of the American commercial equine slaughter process. So the only way we can protect horses is to realize it's not going to change and to support the ban.


VERY WELL SAID!! Exactly the point - I live within an hour of the sale, and I have seen that, too.:yes:

[appaloosalady]

But do you really think that people are going to quit starving and abusing their horses just because they won't have a meat buyer at the auction? Granted a few might, but the rest will just let the horse starve to death. I have gone to sales for over 20 years, I'm not talking from a position of ignorance. MayS asked if anybody had charges brought against them when police were called to the sale - nope, they didn't, and these were private individuals selling at a sale with no kill buyers present. How is stopping slaughter going to stop that?

[EqTrainer]

The thing I don't understand about this is that I don't see how banning slaughter in one state could really make a huge difference.



Not a huge difference, but it's a start. You have to start somewhere. Evolution is a slooowwww process.

[Sannois]

But do you really think that people are going to quit starving and abusing their horses just because they won't have a meat buyer at the auction? Granted a few might, but the rest will just let the horse starve to death. I have gone to sales for over 20 years, I'm not talking from a position of ignorance. MayS asked if anybody had charges brought against them when police were called to the sale - nope, they didn't, and these were private individuals selling at a sale with no kill buyers present. How is stopping slaughter going to stop that?
I have asked this question for months, and get the same answer, Abuse has nothing to do with it, Bla Bla bla..
I think if the anti's get their wish ww will see alot of things that are not so positive for the equines and the industries.

:eek:

[summerhorse]

But do you really think that people are going to quit starving and abusing their horses just because they won't have a meat buyer at the auction? Granted a few might, but the rest will just let the horse starve to death. I have gone to sales for over 20 years, I'm not talking from a position of ignorance. MayS asked if anybody had charges brought against them when police were called to the sale - nope, they didn't, and these were private individuals selling at a sale with no kill buyers present. How is stopping slaughter going to stop that?

It won't just as HAVING slaughter hasn't stopped these abhorrent practices.

What having no slaughter will do is drop the prices for these pathetic creatures to where people can actually pick them up for what they are WORTH, $25 or so and either save them or put them down. Auction houses will no longer have a vested interest in keeping kill buyers happy (and they ARE there at every low end auction whether you know it or not) and thus have no reason to protect bad sellers from the law. Perhaps the law enforcement can get their butts in gear and actually enforce some laws here and there. At the very least seize the worst so that owner gets NOTHING for what they've done.

Banning slaughter in CA put a crimp in the feedlots because now they have to "launder" their horses. It removes the marginal person who might have to haul that horse too far to make any money (between gas and time there and back). It makes horse theft less desirable because it is harder to "move the merchandise" if you are not close to a slaughterhouse or feedlot or auction where you can dump them fast. Thieves know the longer they have the animal the liklier they are to be caught. Horses are hard to hide than dogs or jewelry. Statistics showed that thieves were deterred by the slaughter ban in CA.

It will remove the profit margin and ready market for these people who are breeding horses en mass on large plots of land because they know they can run the extra ones that don't turn out to be so good through the local auction and get $100-300 each for the investment of a day of rounding up and hauling them in. that should cut down on a lot of the "unwanted horses" people are so afraid are going to be roaming the streets in every town.

It will not cure all the ills in the horse world but it will certainly put an end to the endless cycle of cruelty from auction to auction to feedlot to long, desperate rides in those double deckers to a processing line where speed is of the essence.

[kelliope]

Thank you, summerhorse! Your arguments are right on.

I LOVE your signature - about the acorn! I printed it out and have it pasted to the side of my computer!

[JumpingPaints]

It will not cure all the ills in the horse world but it will certainly put an end to the endless cycle of cruelty from auction to auction to feedlot to long, desperate rides in those double deckers to a processing line where speed is of the essence.Amen to that.

[Angela Freda]

But do you really think that people are going to quit starving and abusing their horses just because they won't have a meat buyer at the auction? Granted a few might, but the rest will just let the horse starve to death.
Seems to me with the safety net of slaughter, and a bottom/minimum price established by the slaughter buyers, it should be LESS likely for starvation to happen now. Slaughter buyers make more money off fatter meatier horses, so why starve them?
So why wouls someone let the horse rot and starve slowly to death when you can sell them for meat while it is legal...?
And yet starvation, neglect, and abuse does still happen even with the option of a few measly bucks made off the slaughter of your former companion. Therefore it seems to me the two are not directly related.

[shireluver]

Ok, since there is one person on CBER who thinks I deleted my post on who hauled the horses to Florence Packing, and FP's reaction to the news that they were being blamed for the condition of these two horses, here it is.

I deleted it because PETA and the state vet asked that any information that was out there that may tip off Chuck to be deleted.. Chuck doesn't need the heads up to cover his a$$. It's too late now, I'm sure.

I did not make up that fact that Chuck hauled the horses there himself in his own stock trailer, or that Wayne told him upon delvery that the horse were not exceptable. Chuck and Wayne decided to let the horses stay a few days to see if they got better, they didn't, and they were sent back to Chuck.

As for dates, I don't know those as I posted before.

Any more questions outspoken? If so, feel free to PM me.

[shireluver]

These horses did not lose weight from their transport. The drive from Zillah, WA to Stanwood, WA, per mapquest, is about 3 hours 15 minutes. We all know that would take a little longer with a trailer, but not much. ;)

[Sannois]

Ok, since there is one person on CBER who thinks I deleted my post on who hauled the horses to Florence Packing, and FP's reaction to the news that they were being blamed for the condition of these two horses, here it is.

I deleted it because PETA and the state vet asked that any information that was out there that may tip off Chuck to be deleted.. Chuck doesn't need the heads up to cover his a$$. It's too late now, I'm sure.

I did not make up that fact that Chuck hauled the horses there himself in his own stock trailer, or that Wayne told him upon delvery that the horse were not exceptable. Chuck and Wayne decided to let the horses stay a few days to see if they got better, they didn't, and they were sent back to Chuck.

As for dates, I don't know those as I posted before.

Any more questions outspoken? If so, feel free to PM me.
So they were never on a cattle hauler?? What is Florence PAcking?
And did this individual purchase these 2 at the sale?? is he a meat buyer??
Just asking.

[shireluver]

They may have been on a double decker on there way back to Chuck's feedlot, but no, they were not hauled to the holding faciclity in a double decker trailer.

Florence Packing is a holding facility/feedlot in Stanwood, WA. They quarantine and fatten up the horses before they are shipped to Canada for slaughter.

Chuck, the person who owns the feedlot CBER sells their horses out of, buys horses wherever he can, and sells them to the public, through CBER, and to Florence Packing.

[MSP]

How did I miss this thread? Oh yah, I have been working!

I just would like to know who owns the horses; Chuck or CBER and how are they doing? Did Adam loose his eye?

Is there a formal investigation going on?

This thread is very hard to follow! :confused:

[summerhorse]

How did I miss this thread? Oh yah, I have been working!

I just would like to know who owns the horses; Chuck or CBER and how are they doing? Did Adam loose his eye?

Is there a formal investigation going on?

This thread is very hard to follow! :confused:

Wow, those are good questions!

I wish I knew the answers...

[Jazzy's mom]

So they were never on a cattle hauler?? What is Florence PAcking?
And did this individual purchase these 2 at the sale?? is he a meat buyer??
Just asking.

I don't know the trailer answer. Chuck hauls horses himself in a single level stock trailer, as well as has them hauled there by professional livestock haulers in double deckers.

"Chuck" is a horse dealer. He buys and sells all "classes" of horses and advertises this. He deals in trained saddle horses and prospects as well as slaughter class horses. He purchases from auctions, private parties and individuals also bring horses to his facility, have them weighed and they are paid by poundage. He regularly supplies horses to "FP". There are many horses that the rescue that brokers horses for him never show the public..I am not saying that is good or bad, they just list the most adoptable horses, rather than all of them.

"FP" is a closed feedlot in NW washington. They are a direct supplier to the canadian slaughterhouse. They are the central gathering point for many dealers in WA. FP reimburses the dealers at a poundage rate, and also notifies them of the "type" of horse that the processing plant is requesting. In general, the only horses that leave this facility are those being shipped to slaughter across the border, or those regected at initial inspection, before the dealers have been reimbursed. FP is not a dealer lot, you cannot walk up and purchase a horse out of there. Chuck's facility is a dealer lot, you can call and go down, look at the horses and purchase.

I hope that may clarify some questions as to who is who and what their business roles are.

[ARM]

. . . they just list the most adoptable horses, rather than all of them.

I'm going to have to correct you here Jazzy's mom . . . CBER lists mostly those horses who wouldn't ship anyway. Many blind, lame, sick, and pregnant horses are listed with CBER because Chuck knows he can't legally ship them. This is one of those little "details" about CBER that many people overlook.

[FalseImpression]

Legally they may not be allowed to ship lame, pregnant and blind horses, BUT they constantly do.. We know how thorough the check are! As long as the horse can stand.. it can be shipped. Pregnant? No problem.. look at the MO wreck.. there were 3 pregnant mares on their way to the s/h.. blind? they can pretend they did not notice! This happens every day, at every lot, both in the US and Canada. I did read on one thread, maybe not on Coth, about the number of pregnant mares shipped.. heck, more weight, more money!! It happens, do not kid yourself! At least, at that one feedlot, they do have a second chance.. they don't at the majority of them!!

[county]

There are no laws against shipping bred mares and never have been same as any species of livestock. There are laws against shipping livestock ready to give birth but not bred.

[gwenrowdy]

Legally they may not be allowed to ship lame, pregnant and blind horses, BUT they constantly do.. We know how thorough the check are! As long as the horse can stand.. it can be shipped. Pregnant? No problem.. look at the MO wreck.. there were 3 pregnant mares on their way to the s/h.. blind? they can pretend they did not notice! This happens every day, at every lot, both in the US and Canada. I did read on one thread, maybe not on Coth, about the number of pregnant mares shipped.. heck, more weight, more money!! It happens, do not kid yourself! At least, at that one feedlot, they do have a second chance.. they don't at the majority of them!!

Falseimpression, I don't believe there are any laws against shipping pregnant mares to slaughter, but even if there were, I doubt very much there would be any real compliance based on what the feedlot rescuers have observed. Just take a look at the feedlot websites; or even better, contact someone who volunteers at one of those rescues and have a nice chat about the slaughter industry and what they've seen going on in their neck of the woods.

[Jazzy's mom]

ARM -
I really dont want this thread to turn into a bashing session on this particular rescue/broker, what ever people want to call them.

I can tell you that this rescue/broker used to only list the most adoptable, then people would see horses in the background and want to know about them - so they began listing more of the injured, very old, unhandled etc. I personally was pleased that they began to do that as every person likes a different type of horse.
As someone who has been to 'Chuck's' facility, I can personally vouch for the fact that he does ship the pregnant and very lame. There are MANY (often a semi-load per week) of very lame, wild and debilitated horses that are held in the other side of the barn that are never seen or listed. I have my own theory on why this is, but that is not for this thread.

[bryn]

ARM you are very misinformed.

[ClassiCalRanch]

Typical of some supporters we have personal attacks
So ClassiCal/Tockita, what do I get this time around, will you make me another fictitious Craigslist ad or two using my name and e-mail address?
Or are you intending to create another touching website where you call those who question this rescue very Girl Scout friendly names all starting with "K" and rhyming with "Hunt" and posting our real names and e-mail addresses for all kinds of internet whackos?


LOL Ang missed your meds again?

I DO not make posts ANYWHERE as anyone but myself. Never have; Never will. I can honestly say I have never made a craigs list post, and don't read craigs list unless a link is posted somewhere to a specific thread.

You were not k~hunt your bigot friend was.. you were krapper. ;) for the record it was a group not a webbie and was up for less then a day. I do use one name or the other depending on where you go, but am ALWAYS from the same place. You, dear kiki/WA Ang/NY are the one that likes to pretend to be who and where you are not. Hmm and who was it that listed a supposed dead horse for sale.. not I.