Anti-Horse Slaughter for Meat...a simple argument.

[Trakehner]

The next time you're hearing, "but in other parts of the world, they eat horse...just who do you Americans think you are to tell us what to eat" or some such euro-trash wanna-be babble.

Smile, and ask "How would you feel about your dog being stolen and sold for dogmeat for shipment to China?"

Think of all the meat, excuse me, unwanted dogs, needing a home, who are euthanized every year...all that meat that the Chinese would love to have going to waste. Each animal shelter could have an butcher shop in the back getting Fluffy and Lassie ready for the Peking market. No more unwanted dogs....Boxer Barbecue, Poodle Poi, literal Hot Dogs.

Don't forget, other areas in the world find cat to be mighty tasty too! How ethnocentric for Americans to keep these "other cultures" tastes in meat from accessing our unwanted kitties...new meaning to "Kitten Chow".

There's no difference, it's still slaughter, somehow I figure the same euro-trash who brings their dog into the restaurant won't be so quick to find eating Fritz and Fi-fi is a good idea...can you say, "Hypocrite!"?

[county]

I have no problem with slaughtering cats and dogs for shipment over seas lot better then killing them just to get rid of them like we do now. If theres a way to do it at a profit and someone wants to get into the business then I'd say go for it. I don't like the idea of stolen ones being used but I don't like the idea of any animal being stolen and sold for meat incliuding cattle, hogs, etc. But thats hardly a reason to ban eating meat. If we outlawed evertything thats stolen virtually everything would be against the law.

[Aggie4Bar]

I can't say that the consumption of cats and dogs affects me much. It was common knowledge when I was little that certain ethnic groups around us consumed dogs. Several days before returning from repat one year, our dog escaped from the caretaker's yard. We found him a couple weeks later in one of those ethnic camps, and he was FAT! My dad paid them for the dog (you can't just walk off with dinner), and that was that. It was just one of those things. Now, the way they handle the slaughter of their animals is a different issue, and it leaves a lot to be desired. Cruelty abounds in those countries.

[eclipse]

The next time you're hearing, "but in other parts of the world, they eat horse...just who do you Americans think you are to tell us what to eat" or some such euro-trash wanna-be babble.

There's no difference, it's still slaughter, somehow I figure the same euro-trash who brings their dog into the restaurant won't be so quick to find eating Fritz and Fi-fi is a good idea...can you say, "Hypocrite!"?

Maybe if you stop with the "euro-trash" statement, people would also take you more seriously & make you look & sound less like the "ugly American" that is so prevalent all over the World! Being from Europe (originally) I personnaly take great offence to generalized statements like this, as I expect you to take offense to the term "ugly American"! :mad:

[Evalee Hunter]

The next time you're hearing, "but in other parts of the world, they eat horse...just who do you Americans think you are to tell us what to eat" or some such euro-trash wanna-be babble.

Smile, and ask "How would you feel about your dog being stolen and sold for dogmeat for shipment to China?"

Think of all the meat, excuse me, unwanted dogs, needing a home, who are euthanized every year...all that meat that the Chinese would love to have going to waste. Each animal shelter could have an butcher shop in the back getting Fluffy and Lassie ready for the Peking market. No more unwanted dogs....Boxer Barbecue, Poodle Poi, literal Hot Dogs.

Don't forget, other areas in the world find cat to be mighty tasty too! How ethnocentric for Americans to keep these "other cultures" tastes in meat from accessing our unwanted kitties...new meaning to "Kitten Chow".

There's no difference, it's still slaughter, somehow I figure the same euro-trash who brings their dog into the restaurant won't be so quick to find eating Fritz and Fi-fi is a good idea...can you say, "Hypocrite!"?

I'm with County & others - I think it would be a fine idea to ship the BODIES to another country for consumption. The only problem I have with eating dogs & cats is that those countries will not eat them unless they are BEATEN to death because the stress of being beaten supposedly tenderizes & flavorizes the meat. Now THAT I object to.

[luvmytbs]

Another Euro-Trash here fighting for the American horses. :cool:

[MistyBlue]

It's not common to ship live animals for consumption because of the quarantines on live stock moving from country to country.
Not to mention that many places that consume dogs also easily raise what they need. Dogs don't require acreage and grass type feeds...things these countries don't have in abundance. In Europe...they're much smaller and much heavier populated than we are here. It's not just 'our' horses they're eating...they do butcher their own for consumption also. But the supply might not meet the demand.
People from Europe aren't Euro-trash for what they eat. :confused: Just because many of us wouldn't eat horsemeat (or dog meat or whatever) doesn't make those who eat it trash. They aren't stealing our horses for heaven's sake. There aren't planes landing with horse rustlers attacking our farms for their dinner tables. If you don't want our horses going to slaughter for European meat sales...get your friends and yourselves down to the auctions and purchase those animals before the kill buyers do. It won't stop the slaughter of the horses sold directly to kill buyers outside of auction by their owners though.

[archieflies]

This one should be fun to watch. Not only do we have the age-old slaughter debate (and really, do you think you've added anything new? The average third grader knew that arguement already... I really hope you don't consider yourself clever for bringing it up...) but we've thrown in some lovely ethnic trashing as well.. Really, this should be a good one. I think I'll lean back my chair, get out a drink and pop a few cat-flavored chips in my mouth while I watch this one go down... Wait, does that offend you????

[RU2U]

Stop it before the auction - people have got to stop breeding anything and everything. Just because you have a mare doesn't mean it should have babies. All the wonderful "Horselovers" are feeding the slaughter industry. If you don't breed um, there won't be an over abundance for shipping out of the country. Breed what you personnally want to keep, there will always be an over flow for a buyer to buy and then we "STUPID ANIMAL LOVERS" WON'T HAVE TO TAKE IN THE STRAYS AND THE UNWANTED"

Owner of 20 cats - 6 kittens just this past 3 months (mind you all mine are vacinnated and spayed)

Owner of 3 dogs and 5 "hunting dogs" that were reunited with there owners or I found new homes for just this year!

Owner of 9 horses that followed me home.

14 chickens that will never be dinner

3 "Easter bunnies"

and 2 birds that noone wanted

Our county has 4 cat rescue org. 2 dog rescue org. and 4 horse rescue groups. We live in a decent town with generally a good economy yet we can't take care of our animals?

I'm against the whole slaughter business, but I'm also getting tired of people not taking care of their animals and then we are all supposed to rescue these unwanted pets. Tell me where am I supposed to get the money for it? I love my animals and would never get rid of them, but the solution I see starts with the "animal lovers". Maybe if they took care of their animals the slaughter people wouldn't have to come in and do the job for them! If it is done humanely then lets feed the children of the world. Get organized so that at least the starving children of the world can eat eat meat and they don't have to die...

Been wanting to say that for awhile...

[Sabovee]

OH MAN!
Someone pass the popcorn already! :) ... wait... aren't there already, like, a million threads going on RIGHT now on this same subject...

We're going to need more of that fake butter stuff for sure...... damn..

[Aggie4Bar]

....and pop a few cat-flavored chips in my mouth while I watch this one go down... Tastes just like chicken, right? :cool:

[darkmoonlady]

American sensibilities say don't eat horse. If that is the majority of opinion it seems reasonable that if we don't find it ok to do it, why is it ok to send American horses overseas to let others eat them? What we are then saying is we don't think it is ok to do here but go ahead overseas where we can't see it. It is the same reasoning that allows child molestors to go overseas to victimize children, out of sight out of mind.

Yes I get that other countries feel differently about eating certain animals. In India eating cows is wrong, but do they send their cows to other countries to be slaughtered? I don't know.

The basic problem here is one of perception, we see horses as pets. Or I should say the majority of people think of horses as pets. Although they used to be a work animal that focus has shifted into more of a companion animal over the last hundred years. If they are companion animals and we look down on those who eat them then we have to STAND BEHIND that idea and not just give it lip service. Don't send horses overseas if that is how we feel. If it is found we as a majority feel differently then reassess. American values seem to be what this country ultimately stands for, if we don't stand behind what we believe what good are we?

[syntax_592]

Oh hell - why don't we just bring out Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal

Don't hate me 'cause I'm part Irish...

[J Swan]

Yup - you're pretty simple all right.

Wassa matter - nothing on tv tonight so you thought you'd purposefully start a train wreck?

Puleeze - come up with something more original next time.

The next time you're hearing, "but in other parts of the world, they eat horse...just who do you Americans think you are to tell us what to eat" or some such euro-trash wanna-be babble.

Smile, and ask "How would you feel about your dog being stolen and sold for dogmeat for shipment to China?"

Think of all the meat, excuse me, unwanted dogs, needing a home, who are euthanized every year...all that meat that the Chinese would love to have going to waste. Each animal shelter could have an butcher shop in the back getting Fluffy and Lassie ready for the Peking market. No more unwanted dogs....Boxer Barbecue, Poodle Poi, literal Hot Dogs.

Don't forget, other areas in the world find cat to be mighty tasty too! How ethnocentric for Americans to keep these "other cultures" tastes in meat from accessing our unwanted kitties...new meaning to "Kitten Chow".

There's no difference, it's still slaughter, somehow I figure the same euro-trash who brings their dog into the restaurant won't be so quick to find eating Fritz and Fi-fi is a good idea...can you say, "Hypocrite!"?

[Reynard Ridge]

Some people eat cats. Some do not.
Some people eat dogs. Some do not.
Some people eat horses. Some do not.
Some people eat pigs. Some do not.
Some people eat cows. Some do not.
Some people eat chickens. Some do not.

Frankly, I'm not at all offended or appalled that other cultures use horses or dogs or cats for meat. Other cultures find my consumption of pork and beef offensive. I'm open minded enough to believe that just because I consider the dog and horse and cat domestic pets doesn't mean other people DON'T have the right to eat them.

So, to me, the OPs argument does not make sense. Of course there are people who eat dogs. That is their cultural heritage, same as mine is chicken, beef and pork.

[PiedPiper]

The next time you're hearing, "but in other parts of the world, they eat horse...just who do you Americans think you are to tell us what to eat" or some such euro-trash wanna-be babble.

Smile, and ask "How would you feel about your dog being stolen and sold for dogmeat for shipment to China?"

Think of all the meat, excuse me, unwanted dogs, needing a home, who are euthanized every year...all that meat that the Chinese would love to have going to waste. Each animal shelter could have an butcher shop in the back getting Fluffy and Lassie ready for the Peking market. No more unwanted dogs....Boxer Barbecue, Poodle Poi, literal Hot Dogs.

Don't forget, other areas in the world find cat to be mighty tasty too! How ethnocentric for Americans to keep these "other cultures" tastes in meat from accessing our unwanted kitties...new meaning to "Kitten Chow".

There's no difference, it's still slaughter, somehow I figure the same euro-trash who brings their dog into the restaurant won't be so quick to find eating Fritz and Fi-fi is a good idea...can you say, "Hypocrite!"?


And this is what I think of most Americans who are all too happy to munch on cow but get up in arms about other animals. Either it is okay to kill animals or it isn't.

I disagree that one animal is "better" than another so I don't eat any.

[kelliope]

And this is what I think of most Americans who are all too happy to munch on cow but get up in arms about other animals. Either it is okay to kill animals or it isn't.

I disagree that one animal is "better" than another so I don't eat any.

Not true! It's not that one animal is "better" than another - it seems sick to me to eat something that has become a pet. I don't eat dog, I don't eat cat and I don't eat anything that I have made a pet of and that includes horse! It's one of the reasons I am not wild about 4-H. You make something a pet and then send it off to slaughter. If people can't see the sickness in that then I really don't know what the world is coming to.

It sickens me to read of people who claim to be horsemen who say it's fine to eat horsemeat! We train them, trust them with our children, they carry us to glory and then we EAT them????? I think not!

I am truly sick of reading post on this supposed horse forum about how it is OK to eat horses.

I stand with Willie Nelson and will quote his recent article: "When horse accepted man onto his back and chose to carry his burdens, it changed the world. Horses have aided mankind through his most arduous and treacherous endeavors, from the sword to the plowshare. Humanity owes an incalculable debt to the horse." and "The most superhuman thing about horses is the contrast between their unearthly strength and inherent gentleness. Humans abuse their power while horses use theirs only for good. I'd rather be a horse."

[archieflies]

It is the same reasoning that allows child molestors to go overseas to victimize children, out of sight out of mind.

Umm, no, I really don't think its the same reasoning at all. Sorry, good try though.

[archieflies]

It's one of the reasons I am not wild about 4-H. You make something a pet and then send it off to slaughter. If people can't see the sickness in that then I really don't know what the world is coming to.

And by that reasoning, cows would only be raised by people who don't like cows. America, get ready to become vegitarians, because we're going to have a hard time pulling city folks out of their offices to raise our beef for us. And what to do with all the poor, displaced cattlemen who love their cows and love eating them too??

[Paragon]

This thread again? Awesome. I was thinking it had gotten too quiet around here.

Can we talk about TWH Celebration and rollkur, too?

YAY!

(I must say, though, that this is the first thread I've seen so far to fully incorporate insults toward one's culture - ie. EUROTRASH (bzuh? this applies, how?) - into the very first post. Double-awesome. Were I not in full possession of my sophisticated discretion, I'd make some offhanded comment about how such statements are so very redneck. But that would be impolite.)

[luvmytbs]

(I must say, though, that this is the first thread I've seen so far to fully incorporate insults toward one's culture - ie. EUROTRASH (bzuh? this applies, how?) - into the very first post. Double-awesome. Were I not in full possession of my sophisticated discretion, I'd make some offhanded comment about how such statements are so very redneck. But that would be impolite.)

You forgot to mention that the OP with all the ethnic affection towards eurotrash uses a German Warmblood as her screen name...:lol:

[hundredacres]

I find the slam against a race of people equally as repulsive as horse slaughter.

Again, as Americans we allow our horses to be shipped to the EU. It's OUR government, it's our laws. If you want it changed, do something about it and be part of the change. Calling people names sure isn't productive.

[Moesha]

:(

[kelliope]

And by that reasoning, cows would only be raised by people who don't like cows. America, get ready to become vegitarians, because we're going to have a hard time pulling city folks out of their offices to raise our beef for us. And what to do with all the poor, displaced cattlemen who love their cows and love eating them too??

I know many true cattle ranchers - they are my neighbors. And the most respected one in my area did not have his children participate in 4-H for the reasons I stated. They feel it is wrong to make a pet of something and then kill it and eat it.

I am so shocked that it is horse people that support horse slaughter. It's no wonder I will never again sell a horse. You can't even trust supposed horse people to be against horse slaughter. As someone said on another forum, she can't imagine the golden retriever breeders supporting golden retrievers as food in other countries. Yikes!

[PiedPiper]

Not true! It's not that one animal is "better" than another - it seems sick to me to eat something that has become a pet. I don't eat dog, I don't eat cat and I don't eat anything that I have made a pet of and that includes horse! It's one of the reasons I am not wild about 4-H. You make something a pet and then send it off to slaughter. If people can't see the sickness in that then I really don't know what the world is coming to.

It sickens me to read of people who claim to be horsemen who say it's fine to eat horsemeat! We train them, trust them with our children, they carry us to glory and then we EAT them????? I think not!

I am truly sick of reading post on this supposed horse forum about how it is OK to eat horses.

I stand with Willie Nelson and will quote his recent article: "When horse accepted man onto his back and chose to carry his burdens, it changed the world. Horses have aided mankind through his most arduous and treacherous endeavors, from the sword to the plowshare. Humanity owes an incalculable debt to the horse." and "The most superhuman thing about horses is the contrast between their unearthly strength and inherent gentleness. Humans abuse their power while horses use theirs only for good. I'd rather be a horse."

1. Where did I say it is fine to eat horseflesh? Actually I said it isn't fine to eat any animal flesh.

2. Just b/c your thought process requires a distinction between "pet" and "livestock" doesn't make it a universal idea. You want to romanticize horses, fine, but I really don't see the difference between one animal to another. All have the same right to live and die as the next. If you want to prioritize one for what ever reason you deem worthy, fine. But do not think that it is some universal law.

3. Okay, this pet thing is really driving me nuts. So basically if you get to know an animal then it is wrong to kill it. But if it is an unknown animal then fine, off with its head! Ridiculous. Again this is YOUR distinction on reasoning on taking a life. But do not put it on others. You don't see me on any of these threads lambasting others for eating any animals. I think all animals have the right to life but I respect others who view it differently. And frankly I have more respect for those that have raised the animal, made sure it has had a very good quality of life and then end its life humanely than a factory raised and mass produced/killed animal.

4. It is your opinion and viewpoint that you have no desire to eat "pets" (though I would say that my horses are not and have never been my pets. They don't live in the house, they do not sleep in my bed, and they are not allowed to not have a job unless retired. That is a pet and that is given to my cats, mainly b/c i have yet to figure out how to put their sorry butts to work.). But that is not shared by all so do not put your morality on others. Not ever culture has dogs, cats, and horses as "pets".

5. In MY way of thinking, my sense of morality, you try and give the best quality of life if an animal "must" be killed, but my ideal world there would be no meat eating. That is completely unrealistic so I push for more humane laws and making sure the quality of life is good and the death is quick and as painfree as possible. Again, in my eyes, a cow has as right to live as the horse, the cat, the human, the goat, or the chicken. Each is an individual life with its own wants, desire, and needs, and one isn't more special than another. But AGAIN this is MY OPINION and not one I put on anyone else.

[RU2U]

If you pet it, play with it, muff it's little head...its a pet.

Can you put a face to it as you eat it...thats the moral ethics part. Do you have happy memories of it...before its in your stomach that's also the moral part.

I don't agree with it. My husband and I have this debate as he wants to raise cows. I say if you do all the work (ie. raise good healthy non-chemical cows) then you should reap the benefits, but I can't eat Katie the Cow.

Now as for the name calling....this thread has turned into a thread about name calling? If you all wanted a true debate so be it. If you all want to just run back and fourth name calling go back to second grade. Grow up and have a real discussion, not just he said she said, I feel like you MOTHER! Guess all the other grown-ups have exhausted this debate and now its the childrens turn, I kinda came in a little late on this one...

[caffeinated]

I say if you do all the work (ie. raise good healthy non-chemical cows) then you should reap the benefits, but I can't eat Katie the Cow.

You might be surprised. I find knowing how the animal was raised, treated, and butchered makes it much easier to eat them. We used to label all our meat by name, and though it freaked friends out, having pleasant memories of my food was much better than imagining the horrific and cruel things mass produced animals might have gone through...

(plus, the bacon we got from "Ernie" was probably the best I've ever had, my whole life. Wow, was that good bacon...)

oops. sorry. sidetracked... back to your regular eurotrash-bashing thread.

[kelliope]

PiedPiper, I never said it was fine to eat any meat. However, my issue here is with supposed horse people who train horses, breed them, KNOW them, trust them with their lives and the lives of their children and ride them to glory only to turn around and say it is fine to slaughter them. It just makes me sick. As someone said on this or another forum, I can't really imagine a Golden Retriever breeder supporting people eating Goldens in this or any other country. Sick.

[Paragon]

However, my issue here is with supposed horse people who train horses, breed them, KNOW them, trust them with their lives and the lives of their children and ride them to glory only to turn around and say it is fine to slaughter them. It just makes me sick.

Your inability to understand something does not mean that others are morally deficient.

The sooner the whole world figures this out, the better. And I'm not just talking about eating meat.

I swear the first person who sarcastically calls me a "supposed horse person" as I volunteer my time to saddle OTHER PEOPLE'S HORSES and shovel OTHER PEOPLE'S CRAP and teach OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN just so I can have the privilege of a few minutes in the saddle every week is going to get smacked. The sheer audacity of some people...!

[county]

What makes me sick is people who use the old " supposed horseman " crap because someone thinks differant then they do. I think the only way to describe them is " sad". Those type are not only poor horseman themselves there just plain dense.

[kelliope]

Well, if we don't have a certain moral standard, then why is it not OK to have sex with animals, kill people, steal, speed, or any number of cruelties that occur in this world that aren't even illegal???? Gee I guess anything goes.

[Paragon]

The desperate production of so many straw men in one post, kelliope, suggests to me that you haven't gone back to construct a proper basis for your argument. Perhaps you don't think you need to, and you really don't. How you feel is how you feel. That is your right. However, when you attempt to persuade others to feel similarly, it takes a little more work and critical thought.

Your latest points are not worth discussing, as they have no connection to the matter at hand.

[poltroon]

Straw men have feelings too. If you're going to string them up like that for a nasty attack, you can at least make sure they are well pampered in their last days.

[kelliope]

Sadly, I am well aware that I will not change anyone's opinion. I am also aware that this is the way I feel and am quite saddened that others feel differently. It is something very close to my heart. When I look into my dear friend's eyes, I know I will never sell him and he will never have to know the horrors of the slaughterhouse. But it breaks my heart that others will. :( So don't worry, while I wish I could, I am not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just voicing my own.

[poltroon]

PiedPiper, I never said it was fine to eat any meat. However, my issue here is with supposed horse people who train horses, breed them, KNOW them, trust them with their lives and the lives of their children and ride them to glory only to turn around and say it is fine to slaughter them. It just makes me sick. As someone said on this or another forum, I can't really imagine a Golden Retriever breeder supporting people eating Goldens in this or any other country. Sick.

Well, how about this.

I'm not selling my horse to slaughter. I bought her her own farm so she could have a grand retirement where I could look after her myself.

Nevertheless, I recognize that not all horses are worthy of same and not all owners can do that for every horse that comes into their possession.

I'm raising a daughter, and I hope she has a solid career that gives her a comfortable living that she enjoys. I would be horrified if she ended up having to pick strawberries for a living, doing a job that would use her up young and force her to live in poor conditions. And yet, I eat strawberries, fully knowing that there are humans doing that job.

I do the best I can for those around me, but making everything that makes me uncomfortable illegal isn't really a productive strategy. Instead I prefer to lead by example and support and encourage the people who try to do it better, for example by buying organic strawberries from small growers who do their own picking.

[poltroon]

Sadly, I am well aware that I will not change anyone's opinion. I am also aware that this is the way I feel and am quite saddened that others feel differently. It is something very close to my heart. When I look into my dear friend's eyes, I know I will never sell him and he will never have to know the horrors of the slaughterhouse. But it breaks my heart that others will. :( So don't worry, while I wish I could, I am not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just voicing my own.

There are many things to break one's heart in this world. Take care of your friend, and lead by example. I am more worried, though, that meat animals are treated humanely and kindly during life and have a quick clean death than what happens to the body after.

The danger of this line of thinking, that animals that have been treated as pets shouldn't be meat, has led directly to factory farming and to a world of urban consumers who in their hearts believe that meat appears spontaneously in shrink-wrapped packages. Native cultures honored and respected their food animals in a way I admire. Our strategy has been to treat them poorly and put them out of sight, out of mind, so we can pretend they were never truly alive, just factory widgets producing product. I don't think that is an improvement for the animals or for our culture.

[Kementari]

Your inability to understand something does not mean that others are morally deficient.

The sooner the whole world figures this out, the better. And I'm not just talking about eating meat.

This one bears repeating - a lot. I think everyone needs to sit down and think long and hard about it, and I think we need an applause icon!! :cool:

If you do not want YOUR horse(s) to go to slaughter, then do not buy or breed more horses than you can keep. It's really quite simple. It's a principle many of us adhere to, in fact. Mind you, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with breeding or selling horses, but I DO think there is something very hypocritical about doing so and then complaining because there are way too many horses in this country and some go to slaughter.

And you know those Golden Retriever breeders? How do they feel about shelters that euthanize unwanted pets? Is every single one of them doing everything they can to make sure every shelter is no-kill? Or do perhaps some of them believe that kill shelters are, at this point in time, a necessary evil?

As someone said above, in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather see the bodies being eaten (after a humane death) then using up more resources after they are dead to bury or incinerate them. :yes:

[appaloosalady]

Hmmm, I swore I was just going to pop my popcorn, sit back and enjoy, but...

I'm going to repeat what I have said on every other slaughter thread. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and make you send precious to the slaughter house. I am not going to send my personal precious to the slaughter house. If someone else wants to send their own horse, that is their business and they should have the right to do so. Horses are not better than cows, pigs, etc. If it is wrong to eat one, it is wrong to eat them all.

I think not being part of 4-H when you are raising animals for food anyway
is rather hypocritical. Burying your head in the sand doesn't mean that an animal hasn't died to feed you. As my youngest daughter said while eating her home grown hamburger "I'm really going to miss Star, but he sure tastes good".

[Curb Appeal]

Not true! It's not that one animal is "better" than another - it seems sick to me to eat something that has become a pet. I don't eat dog, I don't eat cat and I don't eat anything that I have made a pet of and that includes horse! It's one of the reasons I am not wild about 4-H. You make something a pet and then send it off to slaughter. If people can't see the sickness in that then I really don't know what the world is coming to.

It sickens me to read of people who claim to be horsemen who say it's fine to eat horsemeat! We train them, trust them with our children, they carry us to glory and then we EAT them????? I think not!

I am truly sick of reading post on this supposed horse forum about how it is OK to eat horses.

I stand with Willie Nelson and will quote his recent article: "When horse accepted man onto his back and chose to carry his burdens, it changed the world. Horses have aided mankind through his most arduous and treacherous endeavors, from the sword to the plowshare. Humanity owes an incalculable debt to the horse." and "The most superhuman thing about horses is the contrast between their unearthly strength and inherent gentleness. Humans abuse their power while horses use theirs only for good. I'd rather be a horse."

Okay, so you don't eat anything that you have made a pet. Fine, YOU don't eat horse. There are still many places in the world were horses are not pets. Do you expect the whole world to set to your standards???

I eat meat. Because I eat meat I do not judge anyone for eating whatever kind of animal they wish. If Americans have such a problem with their horses being sent over seas as food they need to do something about it....stop breeding the damn things! No disposable horses, no meat.
I am also all for sending meat from unwanted cats and dogs to other cultures if it can be put to good use. Honestly, in societies where the food is needed so desperately, I see nothing wrong with canibalism....as long as people are not being killed just for food. Once they are dead, they're dead. Human spirituality is potentially wasting perfectly good food for many starving people.

[kelliope]

As my youngest daughter said while eating her home grown hamburger "I'm really going to miss Star, but he sure tastes good".

Wow. You must be so proud.

[county]

I don't think its about being proud its about teaching reality. Meat comes from real live animals not the store.

[Sabovee]

As my youngest daughter said while eating her home grown hamburger "I'm really going to miss Star, but he sure tastes good".

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm not going to get into the whole thing...
There is a reason we eat cows - they're ugly, stupid and DELICIOUS ;)

[arabhorse2]

I don't think its about being proud its about teaching reality. Meat comes from real live animals not the store.

Exactly. In this homogenized, sterilized, don't-show-me-anything-oogy society, people don't seem to realize this simple fact.

Leather didn't make itself into boots, saddles, and bridles, and that meat didn't appear shrink-wrapped in the grocery store.

[Kementari]

Wow. You must be so proud.

Do you ever get a headache or something from being so judgemental?

[Paragon]

The danger of this line of thinking, that animals that have been treated as pets shouldn't be meat, has led directly to factory farming and to a world of urban consumers who in their hearts believe that meat appears spontaneously in shrink-wrapped packages.

This comment is all kinds of brilliant. Once upon a time, food animals were treated with dignity. Cows lived in enormous fields, children worked with the calves, and some of these animals became pets. They were cared for. Appreciated. When their time came, they were killed quickly, and their bodies were used. Flesh became food for humans, organs and bones became food for dogs, skin became clothing and housewares.

Then, it all became an industry. Animals became faceless commodities to be raised en masse and killed without a second thought. We couldn't stomach the thought of looking into those big, brown eyes and still chow into our burgers. So we learned to skip the part about treating animals with dignity, about creating relationships between us and them. Now, all too often, they are raised in stalls, human contact limited to feeding and killing. And somehow, we find this more acceptable.

We are cowards.

[Goodoldboy]

I have only read bits on pieces of this thread but i am going to post anyway.
I am personally for slaughtering horses and before you jump down my throat for feeling that way let me explain. Someone posted that they were shocked that some horse people actually supported slaughter. Let me explain something for those of you who obviously don't get it. Being able to slaughter horses is a benefit to everyone in the horse industry. It keeps prices up. Im sure that some of you buy a horse you like and keep it until it dies naturally. Many people buy a horse cause they think they can make a profit. And without slaughtering you underemine these people that buy and sell trail horses with the knowledge that if they can't find anyone to buy that horse that they can load him up and take him to the stock yards and get their money back out of it. They go in knowing that it may go to the killers. But here is the cold hard truth. The majority of people DO NOT care. They want their money and thats it. Its all a means to an end and that end is money. I am one of these people working with horses because 1) i enjoy it and 2) i plan to make money at it. And this may sound cold hearted but if a horse has to die so that i can survive, then so be it. I love horses but they are just animals. I don't have the luxury of keeping everyone i buy forever. I buy to sell and i sell to make money and it makes no difference to me if that money comes from my neighbor or from Elmer's glue or from a hungry person who enjoys horse meat.
That is my stand and i know i have some bashing coming my way so lets have it.

[BelladonnaLily]

Do you ever get a headache or something from being so judgemental?

Agreed.

My children raise lambs and steers for 4H. Now, I can't stomach the idea of actually eating the ones we raise but I have no problem with anyone else doing so. Just my personal preference not to eat anything I'VE personally named ;) But my children understand where they are going. They also have a choice not to participate in this particular activity and they choose to. They live on a farm and understand all aspects. The lambs we raise get MUCH better treatment than they normally would and that is what we focus on during the hard moments of reality.

Now that said, we bottled fed a heifer calf last year and got attached. I found out later my husband sent her to market and I was PISSED. Because she was a SHE, we assumed she would be kept and let ourselves get too attached. I threatened him to never pull that stunt again.

[Old Jr. Hunter]

Besides what everyone else said about cruelty, stolen animals, etc., I have heard a good point made about the fact that horses are fed supps & de-wormer poison and have had all kinds of fly sprays, show sheen, etc, applied to them.

So the meat isn't exactly organic.

[county]

I don't think were cowards at all but your not into reality if you think were going to raise enough meat for 300,000,000 people and ship some to other countries by raising animals in large feilds and pastures. I don't see anyone giving up their hobby farms, stables, etc to come up with the land needed for starters. And I don't see anyone saying don't worry about what food cost I'll gladly give up my hobbies, new cars, etc. to pay much higher prices for food.

[Paragon]

Then let me say it, county. I spend a great deal extra on some foods because I choose to buy free-range and locally-raised. The amount we spend on meat every week almost eclipses what we spend on other stuff. (Believe me, we're not rich. Tens of thousands in debt and driving 1990 cars. Just a choice we make.)

Used to be much easier to buy local, as I was raised in a little down of 4,000 where we had a slaughterhouse on Main Street, right next to the bank. Used to see the cattle unloaded every Tuesday morning as Mom and I went through the drive-up teller. I understand reality, and I'm not expecting that everyone follow my lead. I'm merely making comments as to urban America's disillusionment over the foods they eat every day.

[county]

Oh I understand there are some who pay more, but the millions of people in large cities do not and have no desire to. There not concerned about food quality ( if people did fast food places wouldn't exist ) there #1 concern is they want cheap food so they can spend money on important things like booze, smokes, etc.

[MandyVA]

I don't think it's fair to compare horse slaughter to other animal slaughter or to dillute the issue by throwing in arguments about what other cultures do. That's just not relevant to the immediate issue which is that the breeders, trainers, owners and in most instances sellers of these horses did not intend for them to end up in a slaughterhouse. Whether you raise cattle, sheep, pigs, etc. and don't personally want to eat the ones you named or viewed as pets is totally unrelated. They're not horses. Yes they deserve dignity and fwiw I did grow up on a beef cattle farm and many of our pets ended up on the dinner table. They were humanely destroyed at a local butcher just down the street so I had no problem with that.

I think it's patronizing and a little self-absorbed to think that us city types don't know where our meat comes from or don't care. That's just a smoke screen when brought up alongside horse slaughter. This debate never stays on that topic though because there are no solid arguments for allowing slaughter of horses to continue. Those who say "go out bid the killers" are really missing the point. That you should have to essentially ransom our animals from buyers who are there competing with the rest of us can't be justified by saying they have a right to make money. I think goodoldboy must be an alter because he's personifying the type of "horseman" most of us would like to put out of business. If you think you can justify cruelty because you don't have the intelligence or education to get a better job, you're wrong.

[Lora]

I have only read bits on pieces of this thread but i am going to post anyway.
I am personally for slaughtering horses and before you jump down my throat for feeling that way let me explain. Someone posted that they were shocked that some horse people actually supported slaughter. Let me explain something for those of you who obviously don't get it. Being able to slaughter horses is a benefit to everyone in the horse industry. It keeps prices up. Im sure that some of you buy a horse you like and keep it until it dies naturally. Many people buy a horse cause they think they can make a profit. And without slaughtering you underemine these people that buy and sell trail horses with the knowledge that if they can't find anyone to buy that horse that they can load him up and take him to the stock yards and get their money back out of it. They go in knowing that it may go to the killers. But here is the cold hard truth. The majority of people DO NOT care. They want their money and thats it. Its all a means to an end and that end is money. I am one of these people working with horses because 1) i enjoy it and 2) i plan to make money at it. And this may sound cold hearted but if a horse has to die so that i can survive, then so be it. I love horses but they are just animals. I don't have the luxury of keeping everyone i buy forever. I buy to sell and i sell to make money and it makes no difference to me if that money comes from my neighbor or from Elmer's glue or from a hungry person who enjoys horse meat.
That is my stand and i know i have some bashing coming my way so lets have it.


Your not worth bashing!

[Paragon]

That's just not relevant to the immediate issue which is that the breeders, trainers, owners and in most instances sellers of these horses did not intend for them to end up in a slaughterhouse.

In what way is this relevant? Are we now going to expect clauses in every sales contract, stating that the animal must be returned to the breeder if no longer wanted? Doesn't the idea of a breeder keeping their fingers on every horse they've ever created rather nullify the purpose of selling the horse in the first place? (Anyway, if this is SUCH a big concern, why isn't that clause in there already?)

Whether you raise cattle, sheep, pigs, etc. and don't personally want to eat the ones you named or viewed as pets is totally unrelated. They're not horses.

Why does that matter? What sets horses apart from every other type of livestock in America, and why does that make a difference here?

This debate never stays on that topic though because there are no solid arguments for allowing slaughter of horses to continue.

I could just as easily state that there are no solid arguments for outlawing horse slaughter. In this entire post, the only defense you've made is that breeders (apparently) don't want their horses to be slaughtered - a point rendered moot by the fact that the horses are no longer theirs. You've also made some allusion to the fact that horses are, apparently, different from and better than other livestock, but have not provided evidence for this opinion.

If you think you can justify cruelty because you don't have the intelligence or education to get a better job, you're wrong.

And here, you attempt to divert the issue from slaughter to cruelty, while just a few sentences back, you stated that the slaughter of your cattle was humane. Which is it?

I'm sorry, but this post simply doesn't hold water.

[caffeinated]

Mandy, I think all these arguments are relevent on THIS thread because of the original "simple argument" that started it, comparing horses to cats and dogs.

[appaloosalady]

Wow. You must be so proud.

Yup, I sure am :D . She is a straight A student, kind, respectful, and has the softest heart imaginable when it comes to animals of any kind. But you know what? She knows that our calves are being raised to provide us with meat on our table. She still gets attached, I do too, sometimes, but she knows where her meat comes from and knows that the steers providing it had happy, stressfree lives right up to their intended ends. Guess that makes me a real monster :rolleyes:

[cowgirljenn]

Oh I understand there are some who pay more, but the millions of people in large cities do not and have no desire to. There not concerned about food quality ( if people did fast food places wouldn't exist ) there #1 concern is they want cheap food so they can spend money on important things like booze, smokes, etc.

And I think that's part of what has lead to factory farming... (that and our desire to NOT look into those big, brown eyes and then kill them).

And just to throw another wrench in here - someone said we eat cows because they're stupid. But there were some studies conducted several years back that showed cows were actually smarter than horses in solving mazes. Hmm.. so cows really aren't that stupid (or does that mean our horses are REALLY stupid? :)). I don't think any species is stupid - they're all smart for the environment/situation they live in. If they were truly stupid, they would be extinct. :)

[Sabovee]

Yup, I sure am :D . She is a straight A student, kind, respectful, and has the softest heart imaginable when it comes to animals of any kind. But you know what? She knows that our calves are being raised to provide us with meat on our table. She still gets attached, I do too, sometimes, but she knows where her meat comes from and knows that the steers providing it had happy, stressfree lives right up to their intended ends. Guess that makes me a real monster :rolleyes:

YOU SHOULD be proud.
It takes a special balancing act to raise a child with a love and respect for animals as well as a sense of reality. Guarantee your daughter grows up to be a well adjusted, productive member of society.
GOOD JOB. :)

[JumpingPaints]

I think it's patronizing and a little self-absorbed to think that us city types don't know where our meat comes from or don't care. That's just a smoke screen when brought up alongside horse slaughter. Brilliantly said. I was born and lived in cities most of my life before moving full time to the country. From the time I was old enough to buy my own food, I had an appreciation of how food animals were treated and was prepared to pay more for meat raised organically and humanely, or forgo eating it altogether - long before I moved to the country.

If someone else wants to send their own horse, that is their business and they should have the right to do so. By this logic, that people can decide what to do with their animals b/c they are their property - do you also belive then that they should also have the right to abuse their animals?

Horses are not better than cows, pigs, etc. If it is wrong to eat one, it is wrong to eat them all. Fortunately, for the sake of horses in this country, we live in a democracy and the majority of Americans disagree with this opinion.

I will say, I personally would not eat horse, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking I can force other cultures not to. It's certainly possible to educate consumers on the toxic residues in the meat, and prevent US horses from gracing their plates, but beyond that, what can you really do?

I find the entire slaughter process in the US to be hopelessly inhumane to horses, much more so than for other animals (who travel much shorter distances to slaughter in transportation and processing plants designed for their species), so I am of the position it should be banned here, and since poll after poll shows the majority of the country feels the same way, democracy should decide.

[appaloosalady]

By this logic, that people can decide what to do with their animals b/c they are their property - do you also belive then that they should also have the right to abuse their animals?


Last time I checked slaughter was legal and abuse wasn't. Try comparing apples to apples instead of oranges. Horses are property and people have the right to do whatever they want with them as long as it is legal. Geesh

[county]

Why do anti slaughter people keep saying if its OK to slaughter horses then its OK to abuse them? Thats one of the more silly statements I see. One thing is illegal on is not why should we be able to break the law just because someone does something legal? Makes no sense.

As far as a smoke screen about what city people say about meat. Not at all many many of them have told me themselves they could care less where food comes from as long as its as cheap as thery can get it.

[JumpingPaints]

Why do anti slaughter people keep saying if its OK to slaughter horses then its OK to abuse them? Thats one of the more silly statements I see. One thing is illegal on is not why should we be able to break the law just because someone does something legal? Makes no sense.
Actually, it makes total sense. I was not asking if one was legal or not. I was following the poster's logic pertaining to animal owner rights. Animal abuse is now illegal, because the majority of people are of the opinion it is morally wrong to abuse an animal, and brought about legislation to support that. When that legislation was on the table, some livestock owners said "Hey, it's my animal and I should be able to do what I want with it." So...... now the majority of people think it's morally wrong to slaughter horses for human consumption and we have legislation on the table to support that, and again, we have some people saying "Hey it's my animal and I should be able to do what I want with it."

[county]

You asked if people should have the right to abuse animals do you in all honesty not know the answer to your question? And what polls? The ones I've read say just the opposite and if the politicans and people want slaughter banned so bad why isn't it. Theres been 100's of years it could be. Theres a bill in the senate now how come its not been passed if its such a slam dunk deal? Fact is I really doubt it gets voted on for a long time. Very few people actually care one way or the other

[summerhorse]

Last time I checked slaughter was legal and abuse wasn't. Try comparing apples to apples instead of oranges. Horses are property and people have the right to do whatever they want with them as long as it is legal. Geesh

AH except that almost every step of the journey from the minute these animals step off the trailer at an auction house or dealer lot through the many other sales and travels until they end up at the processing plant IS fraught with abuse. Abuse that is against the law but laws are not enforced because the industry is too small for most law enforcement to deal with. Heck they don't deal with the widespread abuses in the other processing industries which are huge!

I don't care if anyone eats a horse if they can transport it and kill it humanely. loading it on your own trailer (that your horse actually FITS in) and hauling it to a local butcher who can dispatch it with one shot while the horse is held is a whole different ballgame than the system in place here where so many of our horses (and yes many of them raised to be "pets" and now confused when they are def. not treated as such) are tortured so the meat can be exported as some European delicacy. If they want to eat horses fine, let them eat their own. We don't eat horses, we don't feed them to our pets and the majority of Americans want this practice (of slaughter) stopped. Used to be majority ruled. Now special interests rule.

[Appassionato]

I'm confused, why is there a difference between "pet" and "livestock"? It's still an animal. It's also still "an animal" to use leather, whether or not I get flamed by a vegetarian. And yes, I consider rodents and such pests, and try to rid them from my barn.

[Caiman]

I am of the position it should be banned here, and since poll after poll shows the majority of the country feels the same way, democracy should decide.

Surely you're not basing this statement on the extremely biased informal online "polls" that so many anti-slaughter groups keep referencing. "The majority of the country" is very different than the majority of the people who self-selected to answer some online poll. I have a hard time believing the accuracy of these polls when I get emails from anti-slaughter groups urging me to go to some site and vote in their favor every time a new poll is posted. And, I especially love it when the results are overwhelmingly "pro" - for lack of a better word - slaughter until the email campaign gets under way and then suddenly the tide turns. Odd how that works. ;)

[appaloosalady]

That is starting a rock on a very slippery slope JumpingPaints. Maybe I can convince urban America that eventing is morally wrong and then you won't be able to do it anymore because of course, the majority is always right.

[MSP]

I don't think were cowards at all but your not into reality if you think were going to raise enough meat for 300,000,000 people and ship some to other countries by raising animals in large feilds and pastures. I don't see anyone giving up their hobby farms, stables, etc to come up with the land needed for starters. And I don't see anyone saying don't worry about what food cost I'll gladly give up my hobbies, new cars, etc. to pay much higher prices for food.


Actually don’t we over produce and throw out enough food to feed a country? Some interesting info regarding American food consumption and feeding 300,000,000 people:


US wastes half its food (http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?id=56376)

11/26/2004 - As the US celebrated Thanksgiving, a new study revealed that almost half the food in the country goes to waste - a statistic that should alarm an industry that is struggling to achieve greater efficiency in order to salvage profits.

The new study, from the University of Arizona (UA) in Tucson, indicates that a shocking forty to fifty per cent of all food ready for harvest never gets eaten.


Also if the average American reduced their meat consumption we could feed more people!

The Hunger Argument
•Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million

•Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80

•Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95

•Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90

•How frequently a child dies in the world as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds

•Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000

•Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250

•Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56

•Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16


We don’t need to produce more meat we just need to learn how to eat more vegetables again! Side benefit is we would be a healthier nation! ;)

[poltroon]

I think it's patronizing and a little self-absorbed to think that us city types don't know where our meat comes from or don't care. That's just a smoke screen when brought up alongside horse slaughter. This debate never stays on that topic though because there are no solid arguments for allowing slaughter of horses to continue. Those who say "go out bid the killers" are really missing the point. That you should have to essentially ransom our animals from buyers who are there competing with the rest of us can't be justified by saying they have a right to make money. I think goodoldboy must be an alter because he's personifying the type of "horseman" most of us would like to put out of business. If you think you can justify cruelty because you don't have the intelligence or education to get a better job, you're wrong.

Well, I grew up as a city type, so I'm not talking about something I don't know about here. Indeed, I see it in my own thinking. We like cows, we like sheep, wouldn't mind having some on our property.. but inevitably if we have cute little babies some of them will be eaten. Can we live with that? (Until we have more fencing it is moot.)

Mr. poltroon used to keep snakes. When you have snakes, you feed them rodents. He carefully broke the neck of each one right before feeding it to the snake. I cannot tell you how many otherwise intelligent people thought this was horrible and cruel and asked him why he didn't feed them chicken from the supermarket instead. That those chickens lived a horrible and cruel life (not to mention that they would not be nutritionally complete for the snake), was not on their radar.

[poltroon]

AH except that almost every step of the journey from the minute these animals step off the trailer at an auction house or dealer lot through the many other sales and travels until they end up at the processing plant IS fraught with abuse. Abuse that is against the law but laws are not enforced because the industry is too small for most law enforcement to deal with. Heck they don't deal with the widespread abuses in the other processing industries which are huge!

And this is where I would like to see our collective muscle applied - in enforcing humane regulations and ending the mindset among USDA vets that it's okay to abuse an animal if it's about to be killed anyway. We SHOULD go after every plant for abuse, regardless of the species they handle. We can, if we want.

I don't care if anyone eats a horse if they can transport it and kill it humanely. loading it on your own trailer (that your horse actually FITS in) and hauling it to a local butcher who can dispatch it with one shot while the horse is held is a whole different ballgame than the system in place here where so many of our horses (and yes many of them raised to be "pets" and now confused when they are def. not treated as such) are tortured so the meat can be exported as some European delicacy. If they want to eat horses fine, let them eat their own.

The bill that's on the table makes killing and eating your own carefully raised and transported horse illegal, which is one of the reasons I don't like it. Not because I want to do it, but because when/if horses die, that seems like a perfectly humane way IMHO.

[MSP]

The bill that's on the table makes killing and eating your own carefully raised and transported horse illegal, which is one of the reasons I don't like it. Not because I want to do it, but because when/if horses die, that seems like a perfectly humane way IMHO.

What local butcher? Never heard of such a thing! Horse slaughter is not a local mom and pop business in the US.

So you are against the Bill because it would make transporting and eating your own horse illegal?

Who is eating their horses now? :confused:

[MSP]

I would love to have some numbers; how many shops and how many horses do they slaughter?

Frankly, I don’t think the impact on a few local shops is worth the volume of abuse that our 90,000 or so horses are subjected to due to the large operations.

If there really was a great demand we would have small shops butchering horses in every town. Those in the US that would like to eat horse meat can always buy it off the internet. The Bill is not making eating horse meat illegal it is just making transporting a horse to slaughter for human consumption illegal.

[kelliope]

Also if the average American reduced their meat consumption we could feed more people!

The Hunger Argument
•Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million

•Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80

•Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95

•Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90

•How frequently a child dies in the world as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds

•Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000

•Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250

•Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56

•Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16



Thank you. I was going to bring that up. Also, it is so heartbreaking to me because horses are such sensitive creatures and so willing to please. They could easily kill us, but choose to carry us on their back instead. They have a kind and generous nature. They are so sensitive we can teach then any number of responses to a mere shift of our weight. The horror and terror they must experience in the slaughterhouse is more than I can really take thinking about. Also, people keep talking about feeding the hungry, but my understanding is that most consider horsemeat a delicacy therefore I don't think it's being sent over to Africa to feed the hungry. Though I could be wrong.

I went to the chiropracter today and was reading an article about Christie Brinkley and her divorce. It was reported that her daughter said something that really gave me pause to think. She said that her mom could take anything negative and turn it into something positive. I have decided to try to do that.

I sincerely want to thank each and every one of you for your candor and honesty here. I really had no idea that so many in the horse world felt this way and I apologize if my reactions to some are considered too moral or judgemental. It just really hit my heart hard.

I have decided to do much research on worthy causes - one for horses and one for children or people in general. I already have some charities to which I donate time and resources, but I am going to do more. I have many skills and will be donating what I can to equine anti-slaughter/anti-abuse charities. I will also be sending more to the charities to which I belong that help feed and provide medical attention to those in need all over this world. I know that it is only a tear in the ocean, but at least I will know in my heart that I have put my money where my mouth is so to speak.

I probably would have continued along in my merry life oblivious to this being an issue in the horse world had I not read some of these posts. I will, of course, continue with my other animal charities as well, including charities that deal with the factory farming cruelties.

I wish you all well and sincerely thank you for opening my eyes.

[Paragon]

kelliope, what a wonderful post. Thank you.

If you're looking for more horse-related (and kid-related) charities or endeavors, I heartily recommend finding a nearby therapeutic riding organisation with which to volunteer your time. Many of these take in rehabbed rescues for use in their programs, and you get the added benefit of working with some of the most wonderful children you could ever meet. Some of my fondest memories with horses are from back when I was a young teen, volunteering with one such program.

Best wishes to you.

[pds]

Oh I understand there are some who pay more, but the millions of people in large cities do not and have no desire to. There not concerned about food quality ( if people did fast food places wouldn't exist ) there #1 concern is they want cheap food so they can spend money on important things like booze, smokes, etc.

Rolling my eyes at this one!

[hundredacres]

Actually don’t we over produce and throw out enough food to feed a country? Some interesting info regarding American food consumption and feeding 300,000,000 people:


US wastes half its food (http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?id=56376)

11/26/2004 - As the US celebrated Thanksgiving, a new study revealed that almost half the food in the country goes to waste - a statistic that should alarm an industry that is struggling to achieve greater efficiency in order to salvage profits.

The new study, from the University of Arizona (UA) in Tucson, indicates that a shocking forty to fifty per cent of all food ready for harvest never gets eaten.


Also if the average American reduced their meat consumption we could feed more people!

The Hunger Argument
•Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million

•Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20

•Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80

•Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95

•Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90

•How frequently a child dies in the world as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds

•Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000

•Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250

•Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56

•Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16


We don’t need to produce more meat we just need to learn how to eat more vegetables again! Side benefit is we would be a healthier nation! ;)

Well, if everyone started eating veggies tomorrow.......we'd need to increase our crops. We could use the ground that the livestock used to graze and the field that grain was grown on.... (figuratively speaking) and plant them. They still will need fuel and output to produce (veggies use energy to produce too!) And then theres the whole fertilizer problem. Where would we get the fertilizer for a Veggie Nation? We do away with all the livestock (that would still need to eat so we'd have to grow their food somehwhere) oh jeez.....

it's a good argument unil you think it through ;)

I'm NOT opposed to a Veggie Nation. But I have thought about this and don't understand exactly how this would work. We'd have to resort to chemical fertilizers which take us to square one in the argument that animals as food are a waste of the planets energy. *sigh*

[YoungFilly]

I am very, very, *VERY* suprised that no moderator has hopped on these threads and said something about how incrediably offensive the racial comments are. I can't remember which one of these threads (maybe the one about the horses stuck in the water) someone made an italian crack. I am italian and I was (slightly) offended. I had to go take a lesson or I would have said something right then and there. This is a horse bb, not somewhere we can be incrediably offensive to other cultures.

I am just going to throw my hands up about the whole slaughter thing. I won't eat cats, dogs or horses, but people in America have no right to tell others what they can do. We can stop our participating in it though.

As for Italian meat products, I am almost 100% sure that salami and Mortadella are not made of horse meat. If it is, then the American public is extrememly unaware of this, and that would be about tandamount with McDonalds not disclosing to people in India that their FRENCH FRIES were cooked in beef fat!

[Marcella]

Ahhh, sitting back with my cocktail enjoying the show until my honey comes home. :)

[hundredacres]

I am very, very, *VERY* suprised that no moderator has hopped on these threads and said something about how incrediably offensive the racial comments are. I can't remember which one of these threads (maybe the one about the horses stuck in the water) someone made an italian crack. I am italian and I was (slightly) offended. I had to go take a lesson or I would have said something right then and there. This is a horse bb, not somewhere we can be incrediably offensive to other cultures.



LOL...no kidding. I used the "f-word" on here once and I got a warning and the thread was removed. Racial comments are more acceptable than swearing I guess.

[MistyBlue]

YoungFilly...it depends on the maker/importer of the Italian meats. It's not equal to beef fat fries since horse meat isn't against our religion.
Mortadella, Soppresatta and salamis from different regions are made of different things. On many import packages it will only say "meat" as one of the listings...usually the finer the grain of the processed meat..the more the chance that the "meat" is equid in nature. If the meat is pork or beef, the package will say pork or beef.
Now you probably won't see that in Margarite or Corando from Stop&Shop...but hit an authentic Italian deli for the imported stuff. Or at a *real* Italian restaurant that serves those meats. It's actually quite common.

[archieflies]

Your inability to understand something does not mean that others are morally deficient.

Wow... I think that's probably the best comment to ever be posted on COTH. Thank you!


I'm also rolling around with laughter that:

a) this is still going on
b) still nobody has brought up an original point (as in, you're beating a dead horse... pun fully intended and somewhat stretched for my own personal laugh...)
and
c) the OP did a hit and run- post a controversial topic, throw in some ethnic bashing, and get the heck out of Dodge... Please tell me Trakhener is sitting back watching this all go down and laughing too- I wish I had had your brilliance on OT day when there was not nearly enough train wreckage for my taste!

[MSP]

Well, if everyone started eating veggies tomorrow.......we'd need to increase our crops. We could use the ground that the livestock used to graze and the field that grain was grown on.... (figuratively speaking) and plant them. They still will need fuel and output to produce (veggies use energy to produce too!) And then theres the whole fertilizer problem. Where would we get the fertilizer for a Veggie Nation? We do away with all the livestock (that would still need to eat so we'd have to grow their food somehwhere) oh jeez.....

it's a good argument unil you think it through ;)

I'm NOT opposed to a Veggie Nation. But I have thought about this and don't understand exactly how this would work. We'd have to resort to chemical fertilizers which take us to square one in the argument that animals as food are a waste of the planets energy. *sigh*

You are not getting the argument!

Put simply, if we reduced the amount of beef we eat (not eliminate) we could feed more people per acre with crops than animals. Thus require less land to produce animals on and hence the animals would not need to be raised like mushrooms!

There are plenty of sources for good organic fertilizer such as horses and other non-meat livestock and recycling bi-products from other industry including vegetables. :D

[JumpingPaints]

And what polls? The ones I've read say just the opposite and if the politicans and people want slaughter banned so bad why isn't it. county, I would like to see the polls you speak of.
As someone who has worked in market research and hired companies to do research, I can tell you that polling companies would be out of business very quickly if their polls were shown to be inaccurate.;) Here are the polls I'm referring to:

From:http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/NHPCPoll083006.htm
Nationwide Poll Reveals 7 Out of 10 Americans Oppose Horse Slaughter
Wednesday August 30, 6:00 am ET
T. Boone Pickens Joins Horse Supporters to Launch National Ad Series

DALLAS, Aug. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- The following was released today by The National Horse Protection Coalition:

As Congress prepares for the September 7 vote on The American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act (H.R. 503), a bipartisan bill that would end the slaughter of horses for human consumption, a national poll revealed that 69% of American voters are opposed to killing horses for people to eat.

"It is very clear that Americans don't think that horses should be killed for people to eat," said Glen Bolger, a national pollster and founding partner of Public Opinion Strategies, the firm that conducted the poll. "The opposition to horse slaughter crosses all lines -- it doesn't matter what race you are, where you live, or whether you vote Republican or Democrat -- Americans are opposed to horse slaughter by an overwhelming margin," Bolger continued.

Key findings from the poll:

* 71% of Americans believe that horses are part of America's culture and
deserve better treatment.
* 65% of Americans believe that in many states it is illegal to sell
horse meat to eat therefore we should not be killing horses in America
for the benefit of restaurants in France and Japan.
* 64% believe that horses are not raised for food. Horses are companion
animals just like dogs and cats and killing a horse to eat is no
different than killing a cat or a dog to eat.
* 49% of voters spanning diverse geographic, political party
affiliations, gender and races are less likely to vote for their Member
of Congress if they oppose a ban on horse slaughter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From:http://equineprotectionnetwork.com/slaughter/polls.htm
Virginia Survey Show Voters Oppose Horse Slaughter
Conducted by McLaughlin & Associates of Alexandria, VA
(74%) of likely voters in Virginia are opposed to “slaughtering horses for human consumption” and believe “horses are an important part of Virginia’s history” and need to be protected from abuse.
81% of agricultural households in the state agreed that how horses are transported and treated in “slaughterhouses are cruel and inhumane”
76% of Virginia horse owners agreed with those statements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Horse Slaughter Poll conducted by The Horse Magazine (8/3/03-8/11/03)

Question: Do you think horse slaughter should be outlawed in the United States?

Results:
Yes (2,025) 76.27%
Not sure (72) 2.71%
No (558) 21.02%
Total Votes: (2,655) 100%

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Survey Shows Texans Strongly Oppose Horse Slaughter May 2003

sponsored by:
Blue Horse Charities and the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation
Mason-Dixon Polling & Research, Inc. of Washington, D.C.

Summary of Findings

An overwhelming majority (89%) of Texas voters are unaware that horses are being slaughtered in the state for human consumption.

A substantial majority of voters (72%) are opposed to the slaughter of horses for human consumption.

A greater majority of voters (77%) are opposed to changing state law to permit the slaughter of horses for human consumption.

In addition, the opposition to a change in law was intense, with 62% of voters stating that they were strongly opposed .

By an 8-1 margin, Texas voters associate the value of horses with Texas state culture, heritage and economy rather than the horses value as a simple livestock commodity like cattle.

QUESTION: Please tell which one of the following statements comes closest to your view:

11%- Horses, like cattle, are an important livestock commodity and should be treated as such, including slaughter for human consumption.

81%- Horses are an important part of Texas culture, heritage and economy and add tremendous value as companions and recreational animals. They should be afforded a more humane end of life than slaughter for food.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Overview of New York Statewide Public Opinion Survey Report on Horse Slaughter 1999
sponsored by Equine Advocates
Conducted by Decision Research Washington D. C./California

Most voters are unfamiliar with horses being slaughtered for food perceiving it as illegal.
64% illegal
10% legal
26% don't know
Voters do not consider horses livestock animals.
Recreational & Sporting Animal 57%
Companion Animal 34%
Livestock Animal 6%
Don't Know 3%
Then asked if Companion vs Livestock.
Companion 85%
Livestock 12%
Don't Know 4%
Position on Horse Slaughter
Oppose - Cruel & Inhumane & should be Outlawed 57%
Oppose - but Government shouldn't Intervene 24%
Support - don't mind Export of Horses for Food 10%
Don't Care - 6%
Don't Know - 2%
Top Reasons to Ban
Horse slaughter is cruel and inhumane 73%
Horses should be humanely put to sleep 67%
Dogs & cats are protected so should horses 59%
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Overview of California Statewide Public Opinion Survey Report on Horse Slaughter 1997
sponsored by the California Equine Council

Conducted by Decision Research Washington D. C./California

SAMPLE
600 complete interviews with a random sample of likely November l998 voters in California. Telephone interviews were conducted by professional interviewers from March 8-11, l997. In a scientifically selected sample of this size, normal statistical error would be plus or minus 4%. That is to say that in 95% of all samples drawn from the same population, the findings would not differ from the findings reported here by more than 4%.

THERE IS STRONG SUPPORT FOR CITIZEN BALLOT MEASURES

When asked what they think results in better laws and policy, 66% said laws made through citizen ballot initiatives, while 23% said state laws passed by the state's elected officials. About 11% are unsure. About 51% of the voters say a very convincing argument for the "Save the American Horse" measure is that the special interests in the legislature have failed to stop the slaughter, so voters have to take direct action. An additional 27% say it is somewhat convincing.

FAMILIARITY WITH HORSE SLAUGHTER ISSUES

Most Californians have not heard about horses being bred in America and slaughtered for food in other countries. Three out of five respondents had not heard or read anything about American horses being bred for slaughter, but fully 40% had heard or read something about it.

VOTERS BELIEVE THAT SELLING HORSES FOR SLAUGHTER FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION IS ILLEGAL...OR IT SHOULD BE

Fully 69% agree, and 27% disagree that even though there may be a market overseas for horsemeat, it should not be allowed to be exported from the United States.

FEW VOTERS WOULD EAT HORSEMEAT

Only 11% agree they would eat horsemeat if it were legal and available in California. About 87% would not, and 2% are unsure.

HORSES ARE NOT CONSIDERED FOOD ANIMALS

Only 3% of the voters say that horses are a food animal to be used for meat like pigs, cattle and sheep, with an additional 23% saying they are farm animals. However, 38% say horses are recreation and sporting animals, and 31% say they are companion animals. About 6% are unsure.

INITIALLY VOTERS OVERWHELMINGLY FAVOR PROHIBITING THE SLAUGHTER OF HORSES FOR CONSUMPTION.

Nearly 70% would favor a "Save the American Horse" measure to prohibit the slaughter of horses for human consumption. About 26% are opposed and 4% are unsure.

AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE SURVEY, SUPPORT FOR THE PROHIBITION IS UNCHANGED.

With 70% indicating they would favor prohibition, and 26% saying they would vote "no," with 4% undecided on the issue.

SUPPORTERS:

Say they are companion animals/Say they like animals/Say they like horses in particular/Say it is cruel and inhumane/Say animals should not be killed/Say they are pets/Say they should not be eaten.

TOP TEN REASONS TO SUPPORT PROHIBITING HORSE SLAUGHTER

(In order of importance to voters):
Horses are cruelly slaughtered.
Horses should be afforded the same protection against slaughter as dogs and cats.
Legislature has failed, so voters must take action directly.
Horses can be slaughtered without the knowledge of the previous owners.
Horse meat sold as gourmet item, not to feed hungry people.
Horses should be humanely put to sleep, not bludgeoned.
Don't eat horses here, shouldn't send overseas to be eaten.
Horses are used for recreation not food.
Horses not bred for food, no need to regulate them.
Horses are part of our heritage and culture.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Letter from the syndicated news magazine "Hard Copy"
November 22, 1995

Dear

The following is the information you requested detailing the audience response to the story we did on the horse slaughter industry.

The audience response was overwhelming. Between calls made in response to the poll we ran and general calls made to our New York and Los Angeles offices, it was clear that our viewing audience was outraged by this story.

Thr response came from all over the United States. As the following numbers indicate, their message was clear. Stop slaughtering our horses for human consumption in other countries.

The poll which followed the story asked the question "Should horse slaughter be banned?"

Total calls logged: 50, 154
Yes it should be banned: 46,441 calls
No it should not be banned: 3,713 calla

1633 Broadway
New York, NY 10019-6783
(212) 664-7600
FAX: (212)654-4732

---------------------------------------------------------------------

WISH-TV (Indiana) 2001
Three part series on Horse Slaughter
Results of Interactive Poll

Q: Do you think Indiana should enact legislation banning horse slaughter auctions?
Yes - 91%
---------------------------------------------------------------------

WKBW (New YorK) 2001
Two-Part Series on Horse Slaughter
Results of Interactive Poll

Q: Do you oppose horse slaughter?
Yes - 86%
----------------------------------------------------------------------

WBTV (North Carolina) 2001
Two-Part Series on Horse Slaughter
Results of Interactive Poll

78% didn't know horses were being killed and eaten
21% did know
2% not sure

On the question concerning if it should be legal for horses to be killed:
76% no
17% yes
6% unsure

[JumpingPaints]

Surely you're not basing this statement on the extremely biased informal online "polls" that so many anti-slaughter groups keep referencing. "The majority of the country" is very different than the majority of the people who self-selected to answer some online poll. I have a hard time believing the accuracy of these polls when I get emails from anti-slaughter groups urging me to go to some site and vote in their favor every time a new poll is posted. And, I especially love it when the results are overwhelmingly "pro" - for lack of a better word - slaughter until the email campaign gets under way and then suddenly the tide turns. Odd how that works. ;)I don't know what polls these are. I was talking about the ones I listed just previous many of which were conducted by well-respected market research firms.

[JumpingPaints]

That is starting a rock on a very slippery slope JumpingPaints. Maybe I can convince urban America that eventing is morally wrong and then you won't be able to do it anymore because of course, the majority is always right.The reality is that all laws in the US are based on what society believes is morally wrong. What you think is a slippery slope is the way a democracy functions. And since the theory is that using the opinions of the majority makes for better decisions representing society's values, your eventing example wouldn't fly. The ban on horse slaughter however, has been proposed for years, and recently passed overwhelmingly in the house, so guess it's not so slippery to most people.

[tbtrailrider]

Another Euro-Trash here fighting for the American horses. :cool:

Hello "A" LOL how ya doin"? :)

I figured that was you....:D

I'm half German, can I be Euro Trash too? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tbtrailrider]

What makes me sick is people who use the old " supposed horseman " crap because someone thinks differant then they do. I think the only way to describe them is " sad". Those type are not only poor horseman themselves there just plain dense.


There you go again calling names....:rolleyes:
putting people down...:sigh:
Do you EVER reply to ANYTHING but slaughter threads?:confused:

[Kementari]

I don't know what polls these are. I was talking about the ones I listed just previous many of which were conducted by well-respected market research firms.

Only three of the polls you posted were conducted by research firms. The rest were mainly conducted by newspapers and TV shows (or don't admit to who conducted them), hardly the best sources of unbiased polling. Not to mention that some of the questions are...suspect. I mean, "Three out of five respondents had not heard or read anything about American horses being bred for slaughter?" Um, maybe because American horses are NOT "bred for slaughter." You can't draw conclusions from a statement like that; it's just meant to be prejudicial.

Honestly, though, I'm sure most Americans ARE against horse slaughter. Of course, I'm also sure that most Americans would be against making horses run the Rolex XC course if it were described to them. People are really good at making snap judgements on things they have no real information about.

Sometimes I think it's good we have such low voter turnout at elections: at least that way I can hope that the people voting are the ones who have actually bothered to become informed on the issues.

[RedMare01]

I've only read the first two pages, so forgive me if this doesn't follow the thread exactly.

As it stands now, I'm against horse slaughter in this country. Because it is INhumane.

HOWEVER, if a horse or any other animal is killed painlessly...what is the big problem? Dead is dead is dead. The horse/cow/chicken/etc/etc isn't caring anymore about what happens. Whether the animal is buried, cremated, rendered, eaten, or taxidermied and put outside KFC headquarters with a big line of people singing "Cum Ba Ya" around it....really it is of no further consequence.

In a perfect world, all horses would be loved...but that isn't happening anytime this century, so I think the best fight is make the process (for all animals) have some sort of dignity and to respect the animals by giving them a painless end. JMO.

Caitlin

[Paragon]

There you go again calling names....:rolleyes:
putting people down...:sigh:
Do you EVER reply to ANYTHING but slaughter threads?:confused:

I heartily enjoy your selective reply, choosing to not comment on the insult to which county was replying in the first place. :D

[JumpingPaints]

Only three of the polls you posted were conducted by research firms. The rest were mainly conducted by newspapers and TV shows (or don't admit to who conducted them), hardly the best sources of unbiased polling.There were actually five research firms. And the Horse magazine is arguably pro-slaughter, so I would say they're hardly biased to banning slaughter. I can't speak for the bias of the newspapers and TV shows, but I'm wondering if you can say for sure that these organizations didn't show both sides of the story before polling viewers and are therefore biased?

[tbtrailrider]

I heartily enjoy your selective reply, choosing to not comment on the insult to which county was replying in the first place. :D
I was under the impression that County was replying to this post....I see no insult...only an opinion....

PiedPiper, I never said it was fine to eat any meat. However, my issue here is with supposed horse people who train horses, breed them, KNOW them, trust them with their lives and the lives of their children and ride them to glory only to turn around and say it is fine to slaughter them. It just makes me sick. As someone said on this or another forum, I can't really imagine a Golden Retriever breeder supporting people eating Goldens in this or any other country. Sick.



However our dear County felt it necessary to call this person dense....:(

[MoonBallad]

Oh I understand there are some who pay more, but the millions of people in large cities do not and have no desire to. There not concerned about food quality ( if people did fast food places wouldn't exist ) there #1 concern is they want cheap food so they can spend money on important things like booze, smokes, etc.

That's pretty funny county. I didn't realize you knew SO much about what we people who live in big cities want! Unfortunately I have to tell you that I live in a very big city, NYC to be exact and I buy free range and farm raised meats. I have a place in the country too and just to let you know; there is much more free-range and farm raised meats as well as organic produce available in the supermarkets and other food shops in NYC than there are in our rural supermarkets out in the country where our place is. I actually end up eating MUCH healthier in NYC than I do when we're in the country unless we bring groceries with us!
Sorry to burst your bubble but I really believe people in the cities are very aware of what they eat and very health concious - much more than the people in our country neighborhood from what I've seen available in the markets, resturants and in people homes!

Oh and by the way; my #1 concern has never been having more money "so [I] can spend it on booze, smokes, etc" - That's just about the most absurd statement I've ever read on this BB! Have you ever actually spent any time in a "big city" county??? I would have to guess not even a minute.

[Paragon]

However our dear County felt it necessary to call this person dense....:(

Actually, tbtrailrider, all insults are opinions. Whether or not an opinion qualifies as an insult is in the eye of the beholder. (Political discussions demonstrate this well. ;)) I personally found it rather offensive to be insinuated as a "supposed horseperson" when the tenor of the entire post was that any horseperson not opposed to slaughter doesn't truly care about the welfare of horses in general.

But none of this has much to do with thread, so I won't carry on. :)

[Kementari]

There were actually five research firms. And the Horse magazine is arguably pro-slaughter, so I would say they're hardly biased to banning slaughter. I can't speak for the bias of the newspapers and TV shows, but I'm wondering if you can say for sure that these organizations didn't show both sides of the story before polling viewers and are therefore biased?

I'll take your word for it on the number of firms involved - I'm too tired to go read the whole thing again. I would point out that at least two of them are the SAME firm, though.

As for your TV and newspapers, any poll that requires participants, without personal solicitation, to call or write or whatever and express their opinion is inherently flawed as a mechanism of measuring public opinion, because those who respond will be those who have the strongest opinions. And in this particular debate, it is the anti-slaughter people who tend to be the most evangelical, and thus most likely to respond to such a poll. The sample is skewed.

In the end, though, I stand by my assertion that ALL polls on the subject are flawed, because the vast majority of Americans don't have enough informaton on the subject to make an educated decision. And even more than voting, education is the foundation of democracy. An uneducated vote, though it unfortunately still counts the same as an educated one, is worth less than the paper it is printed on.

[county]

Have I ever spent a minute in a big city? Well depends on what you think a big city is I lived in phoneix for 4 years, I worked in Mpls for 22 at a place wih 1200 other people. To me Phoneix and Mpls are big cities to others maybe not. I'm going by what people told me in those cities now I'm sure some of you will think there liars because it doesn't fit what you beleive but that doesn't mean I think that way.

[county]

And ya I called someone dense anyone that makes the type statements that person did is nothing less IMO.

[county]

BTW tbtrailrider yes actually I do reply to threads other then slaughter its very easy to go into anyones profile and find that out. If you've never seen any of my other posts its obvious you must read nothing but slaughter threads yourself.

But lets say I don't make any posts except on one subject. So what?

[fargo]

:lol: This is nice: namecalling, generalizations and a lot of emotions. Can we eurotrashers (who don't eat horsemeat by the way ) start name calling too?? Mmm will think up some nice combinations with trash..... Can't wait to think up some nice generalizations for countries I've never been to/too.:D :winkgrin: :eek:
Edited to add: A SIMPLE argument indeed.

[cowgirljenn]

:lol: This is nice: namecalling, generalizations and a lot of emotions. Can we eurotrashers (who don't eat horsemeat by the way ) start name calling too??

Hey, I'm not from Europe but I wanna be Euro-Trash! Can I start a Euro-Trash Wannabe Clique?! :)

[tbtrailrider]

BTW tbtrailrider yes actually I do reply to threads other then slaughter its very easy to go into anyones profile and find that out. If you've never seen any of my other posts its obvious you must read nothing but slaughter threads yourself.

But lets say I don't make any posts except on one subject. So what?

my bad county...I guess I never read any of those threads...I spend most of my time on the Endurance, Off Course and Horse Care... i looked at your profile...
It just seems as though you are so , I don't know combative, and that you don't care how you come off. I am sure you have done some great things for horses, i read ur posts...but dang, couldn't you be just the TEENSIEST bit nice?
Do you always have to resort to name calling and what seems like going out of your way to say mean, hurtful things? It seems like you enjoy pissing people off....But in all fairness, you are not the only one.

[arabhorse2]

Can I call myself names? :D :D

White Redneck Trailer Trash Wanna-be!!!!

I don't live in a trailer and never have, but I definitely qualify as white and more than likely redneck, yeehaaw! :lol: :lol:

There, that should save some time!

[county]

Well lets see your right about one thing I don't care how I come off I say what I think and I'm honest about it. Some people like that some hate it some don't care one way or the other. Its who I am, who I've always been, and who I'll always be have no intentrion of changing.

Couldn't I be nice? Some people think I'm very nice and very generous actually. And some don't either way my world goes on just fine.

Do I always have to resort to name calling and saying hurtful things? If I'm fired at that way then yes I always do I don't have to but I do. If I'm not attacked or insulted then I don't. Very easy to figure out. Do I enjoy pissing people off? Not at all truth is I can't imagine people giving me the right to control their emotions. If they do maybe they should ask themselves why.

[Coyoteco]

Referring to the OP's initial post.
There is a interesting comparison to be made between an owners ability to sell his companion animal (cat or dog) to slaughter and a horse owner's ability to do the same.
Today a horse owner can "make" in excess of $1000 by selling his horse to slaughter in the fall. That amount would include the sales price plus the savings of not having to feed the animal over winter. That becomes an even more critical factor in winters that follow droughts as this one does in many states.
Pro-slaughter people often ask what will become of the 90,000 horses that went to slaughter this year- I think we can all see that that number (if accurate) represents a significant increase over previous years. I think that the horses are slaughtered because the owner can "make" $1000 and many will replace the horse with another - which will then be suject to a similar fate if the conditions are similar.
The way I find this connected to the dog/cat slaughter is this. What would happen if today there was an opportunity for everyone to go into a local animal shelter and sell his dogs and cats for $1000 each. Do you think that there would be an increase in the number of cats and dogs taken into shelters?
I've only scanned this thread over some days so am not familiar with all posts. However, I did see that one poster said he/she didn't have a problem with slaughtering the cats/dogs that were in pounds/humane society in that they would provide meat rather than simply be killed. I think that argument misses some critical ideas - an important one being whether the monetary incentive for killing the animal will have an impact on the number of animals killed. Of course if you pay people to allow their animals to be killed it will cause animals to be killed that would otherwise remain in homes. And *that* to me is a major argument against allowing the slaughter of horses. I do not find the arguments linking the slaughtering of horses to the slaughering of cows and pigs to be considering all of the facts either.

And finally, ensure that the horse slaughter is humane *before* another horse goes to slaughter. Stop slaughter while their is so much brutality in the treatment of the horses. Once the industry is known to be complying with rules of humane treatment, the slaughter issue can be revisited. I can't support the argument that horses should be sent to slaughter while the slaughter of horses is so inhumane and that people should spend their efforts ensuring humane treatment rather than stopping slaughter.
There should be no slaughter while the slaughter industry has so many places where it falls below the standard of humane treatment. Then, and only then, should the issue of whether slaughter should be allowed be truly addressed.

[appaloosalady]

The reality is that all laws in the US are based on what society believes is morally wrong. What you think is a slippery slope is the way a democracy functions. And since the theory is that using the opinions of the majority makes for better decisions representing society's values, your eventing example wouldn't fly. The ban on horse slaughter however, has been proposed for years, and recently passed overwhelmingly in the house, so guess it's not so slippery to most people.

I will guarantee you that if I had 1/10th of the money that the anti-slaughter people have, I could have a poll, just like the ones you provided, showing that the majority of the people think that eventing is morally wrong and should be outlawed. Polls using people who aren't familiar with the topic really don't carry much weight with me. Humans are very reactive animals and tend to follow emotion over intellect and follow the flock (Baaaa, Baaaa). I just wish that people would stop trying to outlaw slaughter and put their time and money into making the process humane, which I feel is a much more worthy and obtainable goal.

[county]

So should the slaughter of all livestock be stopped for the same reason? If not why? Theres a whole lot of inhumane things with all species in the slaughter system everyday is one species better then the other when it comes to inhumane treatment? If so why not say stop cattle or hogs?

[PiedPiper]

I was under the impression that County was replying to this post....I see no insult...only an opinion....

PiedPiper, I never said it was fine to eat any meat. However, my issue here is with supposed horse people who train horses, breed them, KNOW them, trust them with their lives and the lives of their children and ride them to glory only to turn around and say it is fine to slaughter them. It just makes me sick. As someone said on this or another forum, I can't really imagine a Golden Retriever breeder supporting people eating Goldens in this or any other country. Sick.



However our dear County felt it necessary to call this person dense....:(

My issue is this idea that if you tie emotion to an animal it suddenly launches it into a "don't touch" catagory. So if I started riding cows, raised them, trained them to jump, then you would support a carte blanche law that would ban eating cows b/c they can be pets?

Also, the slippery slope your arguement, is what if I have 1000 acres and I raise horses for just meat. I don't work with them, feed them in terms of bulking up, etc just like beef cattle are raised, and then ship them off. Since, they aren't pets or fall into your perimeters, is it now okay?

You are obviously going to answer NO. Why? B/c you have humanized the horse and put human emotions on them which makes it revolting to you to eat them. This is YOUR IDEA, not a universal one. And this is the problem with making laws based on morality. It is subjective.

Again, I do not believe imposing my views on you and you should not expect to be able to do it to others. Your condemnation of fellow COTHers is misguided at best, ridiculous at worst. Most people on here htat are "supposedly" pro slaughter aren't pro slaughter. I find it very humorous how well one could draw a strong distinction between this and the pro choice arguments. Due to your hyped up emotion you have tunnel vision on what others are actually saying. Unless there is a seemingly 100% agreement you spin them into antichrist status. You have your view on what the end of an animal should be according to what the animal is. I have already pointed out I totally disagree but I am not slamming you for your view. What I am slamming you on is your attacks on others. Shoot, it is considered an honor for a field hunter to be feed to the hounds after a lifetime of service in the field. I am sure many would find this wrong though those in the sport see it has a high honor.

You want to debate, fine debate, but argue facts and figures, not emotions. You want the end of slaughter then start fighting for more humane treatment. You are more likely going to get to your desired end result when you take baby steps towards it then to jump all the way over throwing a temper tantrum and lashing out at others who aren't quite as extreme. In other words, compromise and listening are your friends in your fight to get what you want. If you keep it black and white then you will continue to fail by alienating yourself as you are seeing here.

[tbtrailrider]

Well lets see your right about one thing I don't care how I come off I say what I think and I'm honest about it. Some people like that some hate it some don't care one way or the other. Its who I am, who I've always been, and who I'll always be have no intentrion of changing.

Couldn't I be nice? Some people think I'm very nice and very generous actually. And some don't either way my world goes on just fine.

Do I always have to resort to name calling and saying hurtful things? If I'm fired at that way then yes I always do I don't have to but I do. If I'm not attacked or insulted then I don't. Very easy to figure out. Do I enjoy pissing people off? Not at all truth is I can't imagine people giving me the right to control their emotions. If they do maybe they should ask themselves why.



You are describing ME :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Truce? :D

[tbtrailrider]

My issue is this idea that if you tie emotion to an animal it suddenly launches it into a "don't touch" catagory. So if I started riding cows, raised them, trained them to jump, then you would support a carte blanche law that would ban eating cows b/c they can be pets?

Also, the slippery slope your arguement, is what if I have 1000 acres and I raise horses for just meat. I don't work with them, feed them in terms of bulking up, etc just like beef cattle are raised, and then ship them off. Since, they aren't pets or fall into your perimeters, is it now okay?

You are obviously going to answer NO. Why? B/c you have humanized the horse and put human emotions on them which makes it revolting to you to eat them. This is YOUR IDEA, not a universal one. And this is the problem with making laws based on morality. It is subjective.

Again, I do not believe imposing my views on you and you should not expect to be able to do it to others. Your condemnation of fellow COTHers is misguided at best, ridiculous at worst. Most people on here htat are "supposedly" pro slaughter aren't pro slaughter. I find it very humorous how well one could draw a strong distinction between this and the pro choice arguments. Due to your hyped up emotion you have tunnel vision on what others are actually saying. Unless there is a seemingly 100% agreement you spin them into antichrist status. You have your view on what the end of an animal should be according to what the animal is. I have already pointed out I totally disagree but I am not slamming you for your view. What I am slamming you on is your attacks on others. Shoot, it is considered an honor for a field hunter to be feed to the hounds after a lifetime of service in the field. I am sure many would find this wrong though those in the sport see it has a high honor.

You want to debate, fine debate, but argue facts and figures, not emotions. You want the end of slaughter then start fighting for more humane treatment. You are more likely going to get to your desired end result when you take baby steps towards it then to jump all the way over throwing a temper tantrum and lashing out at others who aren't quite as extreme. In other words, compromise and listening are your friends in your fight to get what you want. If you keep it black and white then you will continue to fail by alienating yourself as you are seeing here.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Is this directed at me, Tbtrailrider?

[appaloosalady]

TBtrailrider - not to speak for PiedPiper, but I believe it was aimed at PaintJumper.

[tbtrailrider]

TBtrailrider - not to speak for PiedPiper, but I believe it was aimed at PaintJumper.

Thanks, I am old and recently menopausal :lol: :lol: :lol:

[scottishgirl]

But where do all these horses come from that end up being slaughtered for meat?

Are they by-products of the racing industry? Home bred horses that have ended up unsound?

In the UK, despite being just across the water from horse-munching territory, Ive never really heard of horses being transported abroad for human consumption.

Does this mean that we have less "useless" horses?

Ive been to loads of horse sales over here, and whilst ive seen the odd horse whose condition concerns me, ive never seen anything like what you guys have (even looking at the CANTER website where the horses are presumably still at a racing yard - the state of some of those animals scares me tbh) to deal with.

Dont you need to reduce the quantity of horses being bred if you want to reduce instances of abuse, neglect and slaughter fo rmeat?

[Sannois]

Yup, I sure am :D . She is a straight A student, kind, respectful, and has the softest heart imaginable when it comes to animals of any kind. But you know what? She knows that our calves are being raised to provide us with meat on our table. She still gets attached, I do too, sometimes, but she knows where her meat comes from and knows that the steers providing it had happy, stressfree lives right up to their intended ends. Guess that makes me a real monster :rolleyes:

Appaloosalady! Since you are in Michigan maybe we will run into each other some day! Sounds like you raised a good kid! :yes:
On an aside, I was wondering when this topic would surface again.. Alagirl and I have a standing joke about it being every ful moon, it is past the full moon now and I was wondering when it would come back.. Just different title! :yes:

[county]

No the number of horses doesn't dictate if there slaughtered or not any more then the number of cattle do if there slaughtered or not. Demand and profit do there could be a billion horses but if no one wants to buy or eat the meat none will get slaughtered. Or there could only be 1 horse and if the amount of money paid for it is highest by someone who wants to eat it then it gets butchered.

[scottishgirl]

No the number of horses doesn't dictate if there slaughtered or not any more then the number of cattle do if there slaughtered or not. Demand and profit do there could be a billion horses but if no one wants to buy or eat the meat none will get slaughtered. Or there could only be 1 horse and if the amount of money paid for it is highest by someone who wants to eat it then it gets butchered.

But hang on a second there...

Surely good quality horses suitable for work are always going to be worth more as 'workers' than as meat. But if the numbers of horses outstrips the demand for them as working animals then the price will drop, and they become meat prospects.

Beef cattle dont have any other function, so its not the same arguement at all.

[Sannois]

ITs COTH Secret Santa Time and we should all be nice or we will get coal.. Or dried up road apples! :D You NEVer know who your elf is! :lol:
Just trying to lighten things up! I am so happy I have my boy baqck I cant get mad about anything, Off to visit!! :yes: ;)

[county]

Oh certainly if numbers are higher for riders then demand some go to slaughter what I'm saying is none are slaughtered if no one wants the meat. If the highest value is for meat then so be it what someone does with their livestock as long as its legal I have no problem with it. Somebody wants to sell their stock for meat its totally their right to do so. Some may not like that fact and law but we don't get to pick and choose what laws we like and have others live by their for everyone.

[scottishgirl]

In terms of changing the number of horses being sent to slaughter, is the solution not the work from the bottom up and reduce the number of horses that are being bred then?

Realistically you are never going to change the fact that some people like to eat horse.

Isnt it more helpful to look at whats happening in your own country and start there?

As someone mentioned earlier rescues and adoption centres are full. That to me says too many horses.

And where are these horses coming from? What were they bred for originally?

[Aggie4Bar]

In terms of changing the number of horses being sent to slaughter, is the solution not the work from the bottom up and reduce the number of horses that are being bred then?

Realistically you are never going to change the fact that some people like to eat horse.

Isnt it more helpful to look at whats happening in your own country and start there?

As someone mentioned earlier rescues and adoption centres are full. That to me says too many horses.

And where are these horses coming from? What were they bred for originally?The question then becomes, how do you intend to regulate breeding?

[scottishgirl]

Thats why im wondering where the horses are coming from...

[Prieta]

How to regulate breeding? The same way our local government does to us - made us register our pets and pay fees for breeding. I don't know if the number of dogs and cats have dropped or risen as a result. But, the mere fact that registering for pets help to make people think which is better than just letting them breed to bring money to them.

[scottishgirl]

Good point Prieta

I also have to question the way your horse racing industry is run - is there no regulation of trainers?

[Aggie4Bar]

As county pointed out, the market is oversupplied. Meat dealers pick up most of the excess. They are (typically) the lowest bidders, and the horses they buy meet the foreign demand for horse meat.

I would agree that a large portion of the problem is thoughtless breeding. However, there is no simple solution or simple legislation that can solve that problem.

[scottishgirl]

I think that what annoys me on this board particularly is that people would rather be abusive to Europeans and snotter on about how sick it all is than have a serious discussion about how to stop the problem. And lets face it, the most effective (not necessarily the easiest) way to do that is for less horses to be bred.

But no-one really wants to discuss how to do that in any depth. And lets face it, if the situation is ever going to change it has to be done by you guys who all love horses getting off you b*ms and doing something about it.

I think rehoming programs are a great idea but they exacerbate the problem in many ways, and FAR more should be being done.

[Prieta]

I'm for regulations in racing industry but I'm all for less government involvement. Thus, it befalls upon us to come up with a solution to regulate breeding without government help. How can we do this? :confused: Perhaps, we ought to look at UK for examples?

[Prieta]

Moolah is the primary motivation to breed. :( What else can those breeders do? I do not know what would the horse industry would be like if there is less breeding. Will there be more money generated due to more people having more free time to play with their horses by going to shows? Many of us are spending money and time on rehabbing horses - just wondering....

[scottishgirl]

Over here I dont know many that breed horses as a career. Those that do diversify, and usually have their fingers in many pies (will also train horses, have feed/tack shops, have websites, deal horses, teach, eq. photography,). They have to really use their imaginations.

[county]

I really don't see where breeding drives slaughter if it did right now today we would be slaughtering more horses then any time in history since right now we have more horses then at any time. Fact is when we had 1/3 less horses we slaughtered 4 times as many. Slaughter is like any other business its driven by demand and profit take away either one and there is no business. We have slaughtered horses since the dawn of time has there been to many horses since then?

[Aggie4Bar]

How to regulate breeding? The same way our local government does to us - made us register our pets and pay fees for breeding. I don't know if the number of dogs and cats have dropped or risen as a result. But, the mere fact that registering for pets help to make people think which is better than just letting them breed to bring money to them.They "made you" register? What is the penalty for failing to register? What measures prevent breeders from slipping under the radar?

I would agree than any plausible solution would have to come out of local rather than federal legislation. Even then, however, there are problems with trying to enforce the rules. Some people will play along; others won't. The government cannot keep track of every single pet owner. Unless you can get the law abiders to self-police their community and help with the enforcement, you'll just have another law that many people ignore. It's not as simple as implementing a registration policy and fees. People who follow the rules will always follow the rules. People who don't will continue to look for loopholes. Attempts to close the loopholes introduces more government, which brings us back to the beginning: how do we regulate?

I certainly don't have an answer. :(

[MSP]

I think that what annoys me on this board particularly is that people would rather be abusive to Europeans and snotter on about how sick it all is than have a serious discussion about how to stop the problem. And lets face it, the most effective (not necessarily the easiest) way to do that is for less horses to be bred.

But no-one really wants to discuss how to do that in any depth. And lets face it, if the situation is ever going to change it has to be done by you guys who all love horses getting off you b*ms and doing something about it.

I think rehoming programs are a great idea but they exacerbate the problem in many ways, and FAR more should be being done.

First, there really isn’t that much EU bashing on the COTH and considering you have been around long enough to post 26 times perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions.

Next, if we had a shortage of horses and there was a high enough demand for horse meat in Europe then they would still be sending horses to slaughter.

The horses that end up in slaughter are basically in the wrong place at the wrong time. If a farm or individual is in a big hurry to sell some horses they will bring the horse to a local sale yard. If there isn’t the right or enough buyers the horses may end up getting picked up by a meat buyer. If that same horse was marketed for longer or in another part of the country a buyer could be found.

Race horses only make up I think 10% of the horses that get slaughtered and the people in the TB racing industry are doing a lot for their horses much more than say the largest registry in the world (AQHA)!

[scottishgirl]

But youve already said that if horses were more expensive then less would end up as slaughter prosects.

Less horses = more expensive horses = less being slaughtered.

And practically your not going to change the eating habits of a nation halfway around the world are you? But you can prevent horses that dont have a predefined use from being brought into the world and ending up being sent there.

Common sense.

[county]

Yes fewer horses meansd there worth more not that no one is going to stop eating meat no differant with cattle. The price goes up that includes price of meat animals. When numbers were down horses soild for meat brought .80 to .90 a lb. Numbers are now up and there bringing .15 to .20 People do not quit eating meat be it cattle, pork, poultry or horses because price goes up.

Common sense.

[scottishgirl]

First, there really isn’t that much EU bashing on the COTH and considering you have been around long enough to post 26 times perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions.



You have no idea how long I have been reading this forum for so dont jump to conclusions yourself please.

And secondly I have read several quite inflammatory comments about Europe on several different threads on this forum. Maybe I just notice it more as I am European.

Thirdly, about this

"If a farm or individual is in a big hurry to sell some horses they will bring the horse to a local sale yard. If there isn’t the right or enough buyers the horses may end up getting picked up by a meat buyer. If that same horse was marketed for longer or in another part of the country a buyer could be found"

This proves that your supply/demand equation is out of kilter in that region i.e. too many horses not enough buyers. If there were less horses in that area then those horses wouldnt get picked up by meat buyers.

[poltroon]

Truly, I'm not convinced there's an oversupply or a whole lot of indiscriminate breeding as much as it is that horses that are not actively working are expensive to keep. (Obviously there is some, and the worst are people who breed and then never get the babies trained.) A lot of the rescues are horses that are no longer suitable for the job they had - they could be suitable for another job, especially with some time and rehab, or maybe they're not (permanently lame, serious attitude issues). Some owners don't have the money and time for rehab, some are too ignorant to know it's possible, and some just don't care. I tend to support rescues that put their efforts into transitioning unlucky horses into new homes, rather than ones that are taking in horses without much future that will get them out of the rescue.

Then, my thoughts on this are probably colored by the fact that here on the left coast, even 6 figure horses can eat their own value remarkably quickly - horsekeeping is so expensive here. Producing foals on California real estate is obviously not a net positive financially unless you're aiming for 5-figure babies.

[scottishgirl]

you're really not getting it are you?

"fewer horses meansd there worth more not that no one is going to stop eating meat no differant with cattle. The price goes up that includes price of meat animals. When numbers were down horses soild for meat brought .80 to .90 a lb. Numbers are now up and there bringing .15 to .20 People do not quit eating meat be it cattle, pork, poultry or horses because price goes up"

The point is that if your "useless" horses are more expensive than french/italian ones then it will be the european ones that get munched, saving the horses in your country a hell of a lot of stress in terms of travelling, sales rings and abuse.

[county]

Meat buyers will always buy horses as long as theres a profit to be made on them. Do you actual thing people will stop eating because price goes up? They don't stop drinking, smoking, or buy gas when those things do I hardly think there going to quit eating.

[county]

I think theres someone that doesn't get it but its not me.

[scottishgirl]

"Meat buyers will always buy horses as long as theres a profit to be made on them"

so.....reduce....the....profit....they....make.... ..on....them.....by.....increasing.....the.....val ue.......of......horses.....by...reducing...their. ...numbers...

:confused:

[county]

If......your.......to.......... stupid.........to.......discuss......things....... ..with.....out.........talking......like.......thi s..........don't.........bother........

[Prieta]

I read on the registeration paper that if we do not report our pets, then we get fined. There are steps with each step being more severe than the previous one. I agree that I'd slip under radar as it being more of paperwork. Plus, my tax money goes to support that when I do feel that education will do better on helping to reduce breeding of unwanted pets and horses. So, where do we start?

Ohhh, yes, County, people will change once they cannot afford to get the luxury they want. People are complaining about the cost of gas and companies are listening to them. People are complaining about the high cost of smoking but they will quit once they see how non smokers are doing better than they are. So, it can be done the same for breeding. Perhaps, breeders can see that it is more profitable to run a stable or train horses than it is to breed horses. They can make a switch to make profit with LESS energy spend on it.

[appaloosalady]

If......your.......to.......... stupid.........to.......discuss......things....... ..with.....out.........talking......like.......thi s..........don't.........bother........

Thanks for the diet pepsi on my screen and keyboard :) Guess I'll go pop the popcorn now, too early for a margarita, darn it!

[scottishgirl]

thought spelling it out might help....:yes:

I dont see why you would rather change the eating habits of entire nations just because you cant sort out the problem creating by yourselves on your own side of the pond.

Thassorl.

[county]

But breeding isn't a luxery for everyone its a way to make a living for some. If your willing to pay me to quit working I'll stop breeding. If your willing to put it in writing I'll make more money by breeding less or you'll give me the differance I'll certainly do it. If its just your opinion then no thanks mine is differant.

[appaloosalady]

I dont see why you would rather change the eating habits of entire nations just because you cant sort out the problem creating by yourselves on your own side of the pond.



Now I will agree with that. Good point!

[county]

I don't see where I've said anything about wanting to change anyones eating habits. I do beleive your making things up. Why? Who knows I suppose your one of those who just can't handle the fact not all opinions are the same as yours.

[scottishgirl]

"Do you actual thing people will stop eating because price goes up? They don't stop drinking, smoking, or buy gas when those things do I hardly think there going to quit eating"

Well yes I do its the basis of economics.
Smoking maybe not so much as it's an addiction, but the rest, yes.

And again, yes if fewer horses are bred then some breeders will go out of business. Harsh but true.

[county]

I got news for ya price can go up a whole lot and people aren't going to stop eating unless there willing to starve to death and I'm thinking not many are.

[Prieta]

That is essentially what some farmers around here did - changed their farming practice from breeding, milking, to stabling. They reported bigger returns. :) I just need to let money take control just like I am stumped with my accountant's bill of 5K for their measely service. :eek: I better start looking for cheaper service now.

[Paragon]

Here's the trick about limiting breeding: In order to create an outstanding individual, there's a certain amount of luck involved. You have to play the numbers game. We can make educated guesses - and must! - when breeding responsibly, but nothing is guaranteed. Depending on what you're breeding for, you might end up with a greater number of horses that don't pass muster for your purpose. These culls are inevitable in virtually any professional breeding operation. If you're looking to carry on a bloodline, that's easy. Make a couple babies, and voila, you have more bloodline. I know of several Arab breeders who do just this and never, ever breed more than they can keep. If your goal, however, is to create a high-performance animal, the task becomes much harder.

In a perfect world, we would have ready homes for the dozens of horses that are produced in our quest for talented performance animals. Not everyone needs a TB that'll win the Classic, not everyone wants to compete Grand Prix. These less-talented (or poorly conformed, or just plain lazy) horses can find homes with people whose goals match the horse's ability. But the scope of this issue is enormous.

So, what's our option? Say we limit breeders to only breeding X number of horses per year. Let's pretend... fifteen. Perhaps they don't create the individual they were looking for in that fifteen. Now what? We still have fifteen low-level (untalented, poorly conformed, or lazy) horses. We haven't found them homes. What HAVE we accomplished here?

Now, I am not a breeder. Right now, I'm not even a horse owner. But I've spent several years watching various markets, seeing culls from otherwise successful operations, trying to understand how the breeding game works. If I'm wrong in anything I've said here, please correct me.

I agree that breeding should be closely-scrutinised... but how do we fix things?

[kelliope]

I got news for ya price can go up a whole lot and people aren't going to stop eating unless there willing to starve to death and I'm thinking not many are.

I've said my peace earlier and was going to stay out of this debate, but I do have to point out that people don't have to starve to death by not eating horse. I don't eat horse, and believe me, I'm not starving. :)

[scottishgirl]

"what I'm saying is none are slaughtered if no one wants the meat."

Your implying that the demand for horsemeat should be reduced not the supply of horses.

"price can go up a whole lot and people aren't going to stop eating unless there willing to starve to death "

Price of an individual product we're talking about about here - if it gets too high to buy brand x people drop to a lower curve and buy and eat a cheaper substitute. i.e. buy italian horse, not american.

[appaloosalady]

I've gone to auctions for years. When meat prices were high, more horses ended up going to the meat man, not less. Think about it - that unbroke, or lame, or mean, or just plain not wanted horse, is worth about 900.00 on the hoof to the meat buyer when the market is up. If people aren't outbidding the meat man now on a 200.00 horse, what makes you think they are going to outbid him on the same one when it is 900.00?

[scottishgirl]

Im just trying to understand the nature of the problem here.

Maybe in the UK we dont have people/organisations with large numbers of horses that they have no emotional attachment to, and thats why we dont send them for meat.

Thats why Im wondering where these animals are coming from.

Again taking your CANTER as an example, there is no way i could get hold of a sound OTTB for free, or next to nothing in the UK (even one thats been injured and then recovered and is then only suitable for xyz). Im sure I could get hold a lame one for use as a companion or something for free buts that about it.

Surely that means something has gone wrong, somewhere, for you guys?

[county]

I never said anyone should eat horse or that theres no other food to eat. I said people aren't going to stop eating if food gets expensive.

And I'm totally against linmiting breeding of horses unless your going to limit breeding of everything else including people. Actually I think they should be first. Unless you people are going to change the freedoms this country was based on I think your going to have a tough time telling everyone what they can and can't breed and raise. And so what if someone breeds a horse someone else thinks isn't good enough. Since when do people have to please others with their property?

[MSP]

You have no idea how long I have been reading this forum for so dont jump to conclusions yourself please.

And secondly I have read several quite inflammatory comments about Europe on several different threads on this forum. Maybe I just notice it more as I am European.

Thirdly, about this

"If a farm or individual is in a big hurry to sell some horses they will bring the horse to a local sale yard. If there isn’t the right or enough buyers the horses may end up getting picked up by a meat buyer. If that same horse was marketed for longer or in another part of the country a buyer could be found"

This proves that your supply/demand equation is out of kilter in that region i.e. too many horses not enough buyers. If there were less horses in that area then those horses wouldnt get picked up by meat buyers.

Not as much bashing as there would be if one of us were sitting in a room with a group of Europeans! Been there done that! ;)

The out of kilter supply and demand is simply because of the huge difference in cost of horse ownership depending on where one lives.

How do you explain the slaughtering of Warmbloods in Europe that would fetch good money in the USA?

[Prieta]

County, ditto about limiting breeding everything else including human. Thus, with more knowledge we might be able to reduce population of everything slowly. Government control over population control will backfire - just look at China for example.

We do not need to eat a whole lot of meat to keep us alive - just less is fine.

[county]

Your right we don't have to eat alot of meat. But we have every right to choose to do so if we wish. We don't have to smoke, drink, a whole lot of things but we do have the right to do so if we choose.

[scottishgirl]

OK, I think this conversation has gone as far as it can County if you are going to start going on about 'rights' to breed horses. What about moral responsibilities to the animals being produced.

Apologies if I have got anyones back's up here. I think what we need to remember is that we all love horses, and whether you think its right or wrong that horses are eaten, Im sure sure that we all would prefer that it didnt happen.

Short of banning the sale of horses for slaughter (which would probably result in more neglected/uncared for/abused/left to starve in a backyard horses) or, as I said earlier, changing the eating habits of other nations (that probably wont take very kindly to being to being told that their culture is inappropriate) I dont see what else you can do.

Everyone agrees as a matter of course that spaying their dogs/cats is the best way to save future unwanted pups/kits from ending up on the streets, why is it so insane to have the same approach with horses?

[Aggie4Bar]

OK, I think this conversation has gone as far as it can County if you are going to start going on about 'rights' to breed horses. What about moral responsibilities to the animals being produced.How will you convince everyone they have a "moral responsiblity"?

Everyone agrees as a matter of course that spaying their dogs/cats is the best way to save future unwanted pups/kits from ending up on the streets, why is it so insane to have the same approach with horses?It's not insane. Who pays the horse rescues for the gelding and spaying procedures? They typically run short on budget as it is.

I don't think anyone is getting their back up due to your comments, and I'm certainly not offended by anything you've posted. The problem is, you are not offering any solutions. Yes, a decrease in the number of horses and increase in the value of those produced would help matters. How would you propose to achieve that?

[county]

I don't see any morals being broken by breeding horses. If there not being cared for or abused thats certainly wrong but thats not from breeding abuse and neglect are a thing in themselves has nothing to do with breeding. As far as prefering horses are not eaten just speaking for myself I have no problem with people eating them. I love eating beef and theres people that have a problem with cattle being eaten but I'm hardly going to stop or think its wrong. I give the same right to those who like horse.

If anyone feels this conversation has gone as far as it can all they have to do is stop posting on it.

[scottishgirl]

"The out of kilter supply and demand is simply because of the huge difference in cost of horse ownership depending on where one lives.

How do you explain the slaughtering of Warmbloods in Europe that would fetch good money in the USA?"

So people raise a large number of horses in cheap regions, transport the ones that sell to more expensive regions, and send the rest to slaughter?

i cant explain why that happens, those healthy horses would fetch good money over here too. The only thing i can think is that such horses bred for slaughter are semi-wild, and the time and money it would take to train to a level where they could be sold as a ridden prospect is probably outweighed by the convenience of slaughter. Im not saying that thats right either. But thats not your problem, thats the problem of the country in which it happens.

I firmly believe in sorting your own problems out first. (Dont mean you, you, just 'you' in general ;-)

[scottishgirl]

Hi Aggie,

Im not pretending to offer THE solution at all!

Its just that from my perspective your region seems to have an awful lot of unwanted animals. Surely if there are less animals then less of them will be unwanted?

edit: sorry there misread your posting there..

i dont know how to do it. But im sure that if enough people put their heads together a solution can be found. On these boards i dont see an attempt at that, i just see hand wringing over how awful it is, continual arguing over it, and a huge amount of effort being directed at mopping up the mess, not at the root of the problem.....whatever that is

edit again!: and from what i read on here some of you appear to be fairly influential people. Surely something can be done!

[Coreene]

Being from Europe (originally) I personnaly take great offence to generalized statements like this, as I expect you to take offense to the term "ugly American"! :mad:
Absolutely agree with you 100%, Eclipse. The OP managed to insult a lot of BBers with her "euro-trash" swipe.

[Prieta]

Yes, we have a lot of unwanted animals. I do not know about how many of unwanted animals there are in Europe and the rest of the world. :yes: One of the solution is to set aside some fees in registering a horse for spaying/nuetering them at no cost or sending them to Heaven at no cost? that sounds feasible. Hey, scientists! You have a cool problem to tackle - how do we render mares barren without touching them?

[county]

Its very rare to see any unwanted horses I have gone to horse auctions virtually every month for 40 years and only once can I remember one not bringing a bid.

And not everyone thinks that selling meat world wide is a problem. Fact is the food/meat export business from the U.S. to the world wide market is a booming business for many many people in ag related business and jobs in this country.

[Prieta]

I wish that we can be that influential...it just takes a LOT of educated horse lovers to be able to present the problem in a pragmatic way and to offer solutions that will work for all. :( I'm only a dot here....

[scottishgirl]

Absolutely agree with you 100%, Eclipse. The OP managed to insult a lot of BBers with her "euro-trash" swipe.

me three :sadsmile:

[county]

Not all educated horse lovers think the same way. Nor should they.

[Prieta]

Educated does not necessarily mean that they have to have a degree - only that they are very knowledgeable about this issue and have taken pains to study the issue - like you, County. You need to present the problem for us to look at; otherwise, how else are we going to be able to solve the problem? This issue means a lot to you; otherwise, you'd not be on this BB about this problem.

[cowgirljenn]

Everyone agrees as a matter of course that spaying their dogs/cats is the best way to save future unwanted pups/kits from ending up on the streets, why is it so insane to have the same approach with horses?

As someone who runs a rescue, I would LOVE it if we could afford to spay our mares. We do geld all colts, stallions, jacks, johns (even though they can't reproduce - gelding johns normally makes 'em easier to get along with!).

But spaying mares is more invasive - it is more expensive and has a longer recoup. time. We just cannot afford it - not unless someone wants to finance it for us.... (and then I would in a heartbeat - at least for the younger ones who could withstand the procedure).

[scottishgirl]

Sorry badly phrased by me - I meant importing the philosophy of reducing numbers by more careful consideration of what is bred rather than physically spaying them.

[MSP]

"The out of kilter supply and demand is simply because of the huge difference in cost of horse ownership depending on where one lives.

How do you explain the slaughtering of Warmbloods in Europe that would fetch good money in the USA?"

So people raise a large number of horses in cheap regions, transport the ones that sell to more expensive regions, and send the rest to slaughter?

i cant explain why that happens, those healthy horses would fetch good money over here too. The only thing i can think is that such horses bred for slaughter are semi-wild, and the time and money it would take to train to a level where they could be sold as a ridden prospect is probably outweighed by the convenience of slaughter. Im not saying that thats right either. But thats not your problem, thats the problem of the country in which it happens.

I firmly believe in sorting your own problems out first. (Dont mean you, you, just 'you' in general ;-)

Right on the nose!

The same thing happens here and I don’t care what they do over there. Why do you care what we do over here? And, why should you care if we make slaughter of our horses illegal? We are not telling anyone they can’t eat horses we just don’t want ours eaten! (just you in general)

Perhaps if instead of making slaughter illegal we can make the importation of horses illegal or very limited and Americans will be forced to buy and use our horses leaving the Europeans with Unwanted horses!

[Coyoteco]

The issue is not an oversupply of horses as it is with dogs and cats.

The money that is generated to the horse industry by the slaughter of horses is the single factor that throws everything else off. If the prohibition against slaughter is passed and takes effect, any overbreeding, if it does exist, will self correct.

County, you may have been addressing me when you asked why one would not advocate stopping the slaughter of cattle and pigs until it can be made humane. I do think the issues surrounding cattle and pigs is different from that surrounding horses. However, in this aspect it is similar. I *would* support a hard core approach to cleaning up any slaughter industy where there is not humane treatment of slaughter animals. So, yes, I would support a forced cessation of the slaughter of cattle or pigs or any other lobsters anywhere it is not humane until the cruelty is remedied. In fact, I think that is an excellent idea. Since those industries are so powerful and economically significant, I think those changes will have to come about more slowly, though, and that such an approach would be futile.

[scottishgirl]

Hi MSP;

Not too sure what you mean by your comment - that you feel that Im having double standards by posting on the subject? If thats it then its purely because I read a lot of heated arguments about the subject on here, and im curious about the lack of effort directed at finding a solution, and the huge amount of effort directed towards changing other peoples minds, when, lets face it, often that cant be done.

Im also curious as to why the industry exists in the US at all. If you guys dont eat horse meat I dont really understand why you are a cheap source of horse meat when you take into account moving it halfway round the world. That must mean that you have proportionally more "broken down" horses than in Europe, or proportionally more "unwanted as work animals" than in Europe. Again, that puzzles me. I can only assume that more horses are bred than needed for work.

As we dont have this over here I can only assume that we must do something different. Im curious as to what that difference is, especially as we are closer, and it would make more sense for us to have a horse meat industry than you guys. If that wasnt what you meant then apologies.

And my point about making slaughter illegal is that its probably an impossible/v diff thing to do (bearing in mind the strength of opinions on both sides), as well as possibly holding animal welfare consequences.

coyoteco;
I just think that assuming that you cant ban the industry, all you can do is stop the flow of horses into it.

Do you think it will be banned?

[Aggie4Bar]

Sorry badly phrased by me - I meant importing the philosophy of reducing numbers by more careful consideration of what is bred rather than physically spaying them.Many already embrace that philosophy. However, you'll always have people who repeat the philosophy and then go out and act in opposition to what they profess to believe. Maybe they do it on purpose; maybe they're just uneducated. How could improve quality across the board when one man's trash is another man's treasure?

This slaughter argument is like an elephant in the room. Everyone sees the elephant. The majority agrees the elephant has to go, but no one proposes any method of removing the elephant. Instead, they bicker amongst each other about how the elephant got into the room, whose fault was it, etc., etc. They look backwards rather than forwards, and meanwhile, the elephant is still in the room.

Spaying and gelding of horses that end up with a rescue or adoption organisation is a good idea. The downside is the cost of the procedure and the medical attention required. So, what could be done to minimize costs and make this a more feasible option? That's something worth discussing.

There are productive ways to approach the problem. JSwan has been very diplomatic at presenting issues for discussion. There is no one answer though, and any changes would occur one little step at a time. I think most people who post want one perfect solution that will make slaughter disappear overnight. It doesn't work that way.

[Prieta]

Aggie4bar, thanks for presenting a clear argument about why we still have this "elephant" in the room. That is why we need tough people who are also brilliant and objective with big hearts!

[county]

I really don't see a problem if you don't want your horse to be slaughtered then don't sell it. The only problem I see is that some people want control over what others eat and what others do with their livestock. I think its going to be tough to convince the Senate to pass the current bill in its form and even tougher to get Bush to sign it. I could be very wrong but with the new senate there not going to spend time on the slaughter bill for awhile. The current ag bill and CRP bill run out next year. There has to be a total new ag bill drawn up and they need to decide what to do about CRP. Peterson is slated to be the new ag chairman and hes pro slaughter. Bush is out in two years and I doubt he cares if the slaughter bill is looked at or not. Who ever gets in for 08 has to set up an administration I seriously doubt a horse slaughter bill gets a vote till sometime late 09 or early 10. Limit breeding? When pigs fly the gov. isn't going to pass any laws that limit how much livestock can be bred in our lifetimes.

[MSP]

Hi MSP;

Not too sure what you mean by your comment - that you feel that Im having double standards by posting on the subject? If thats it then its purely because I read a lot of heated arguments about the subject on here, and im curious about the lack of effort directed at finding a solution, and the huge amount of effort directed towards changing other peoples minds, when, lets face it, often that cant be done.

Im also curious as to why the industry exists in the US at all. If you guys dont eat horse meat I dont really understand why you are a cheap source of horse meat when you take into account moving it halfway round the world. That must mean that you have proportionally more "broken down" horses than in Europe, or proportionally more "unwanted as work animals" than in Europe. Again, that puzzles me. I can only assume that more horses are bred than needed for work.

As we dont have this over here I can only assume that we must do something different. Im curious as to what that difference is, especially as we are closer, and it would make more sense for us to have a horse meat industry than you guys. If that wasnt what you meant then apologies.

And my point about making slaughter illegal is that its probably an impossible/v diff thing to do (bearing in mind the strength of opinions on both sides), as well as possibly holding animal welfare consequences.

coyoteco;
I just think that assuming that you cant ban the industry, all you can do is stop the flow of horses into it.

Do you think it will be banned?

We have been working on the slaughter issue for over thirty years in this country, it is not new. We have good usable healthy horses here for sale for prices like $300. It cost me about $75 a month to keep a horse not counting vet or hoof trimming so some one with even more acreage can breed and keep horses for basically nothing! If they end up with too many horses they can sell them for $300 and walk away happy. Horses are certainly cheaper than beef cattle. That is why the slaughter plants can make a profit.

The slaughter facilities are all foreign owned. We have no market for horse meat. There is not a lack of effort but it is a grass routes movement up against large corporations who can and will throw their money around.

Slaughter exists in this country because the slaughter plants exist and they can make money exporting horse meat to Europe. If the demand for horse meat ended tomorrow the plants would close down regardless of how many unwanted horses we have. Our horse market would eventually correct itself. IMO slaughter throws the balance of our horse market off. It enables bad husbandry and gives us a false bottom to the market.

Do I think it will be banned? Maybe, but I still think the odds are better that it won’t. IMO our country is being run by large corporations so we can only influence a change if we are the consumers. In this case we are not the consumer, Europe is. Our best chance of slaughter ending in this country is if the market for horse meat dries up. The numbers of horses slaughtered in this country have been on the decline over the last twenty years and as demand for horse meat diminished so did the number of horses being slaughtered. If it wasn’t for mad cow disease the numbers probably would have continued to decrease.

[county]

Actually this year slaughter numbers are up in the U.S. plants and the number of U.S. horses hauled to Can. for slaughter is up. Theres two loads a month go from the feedlot near here to Can.

[MSP]

Actually this year slaughter numbers are up in the U.S. plants and the number of U.S. horses hauled to Can. for slaughter is up. Theres two loads a month go from the feedlot near here to Can.

Yes, as I stated the numbers probably would have continued to decrease if it wasn't for mad cow disease which increased the demand for alternative meat! This in turn increased the demand for horse meat. At one point we slaughtered three times as many horses as we do now.

[kelliope]

Slaughter exists in this country because the slaughter plants exist and they can make money exporting horse meat to Europe. If the demand for horse meat ended tomorrow the plants would close down regardless of how many unwanted horses we have. Our horse market would eventually correct itself. IMO slaughter throws the balance of our horse market off. It enables bad husbandry and gives us a false bottom to the market.


I agree, but unfortunately I have one more thing to add. I believe that horse slaughter exists in this country in large part because, as we can see by this thread, there are many horse people who are not opposed. Sadly, I actually know someone who had a broodmare for years and years. She threw him many beautiful foals that supported his family. And her reward? When she became too old to have foals she was shipped off to a slaughter house. Made me sick. Would have stopped it (by buying the horse) if I had known, but didn't find out until the mare was long gone. But at that time I thought this person was in the minority.

As long people with horses sell them off to unknown futures when they are old, unsound, etc. or actually sell them to slaughter houses themselves for a quick buck then apparently the problem will continue in this country.

scottishgirl, I am very interested in how your country handles any (if any) unwanted horses? It sounds as though your country does not send horses to slaughter :) and I am curious if your countrymen just value horses more? Less greed?

[scottishgirl]

hi kelliope,

This is what I am trying to work out. All I can think of is that there are less horses here, and when horses get past their "useful" life they get put down if they are ill, or are used as companions if not. If it was just old horses that were being sent to slaughter in the US maybe i could understand it better, but it seems to be happening to young ones as well.

We have recently implemented a horse passport system over here, the purpose of which is to prevent "domestic" horses getting into the food chain. This hasnt been done due to the yick factor of the meat market, its more to stop horses that have been medicated getting into the food chain. You cant slaughter or move a horse outside the UK without one, and its compulsory for every horse. As a consequence the number of horses being slaughtered has dropped.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it doesnt happen here at all. It is just less prevalent.

EDITED to add this link http://www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/slaughter.htm which describes the situation in Australia and supports my argument for an overpopulation in horses quite well i think. The race industry has a lot to answer for I think.


Heres a good link if you are interested in the passport system http://www.bhs.org.uk/Content/Ods-More.asp?id=1703&pg=Welfare&spg=Library&area=4

[county]

If breeders kept all the livestock they use for breeding till they died of old age they would be out of business in not many years. On this place I have at any given time 60 to 80 head of livestock used for breeding. If I kept everyone after it no longer produced until its death of old age how long do you think it would be till I'm feeding 100's of animals that generate no income? How long do you think I'd stay in business feeding them?

[MSP]

hi kelliope,

This is what I am trying to work out. All I can think of is that there are less horses here, and when horses get past their "useful" life they get put down if they are ill, or are used as companions if not. If it was just old horses that were being sent to slaughter in the US maybe i could understand it better, but it seems to be happening to young ones as well.

We have recently implimented a horse passport system over here, the purpose of which is to prevent "domestic" horses getting into the food chain. This hasnt been done due to the yick factor of the meat market, its more to stop horses that have been medicated getting into the food chain. You cant slaughter or move a horse outside the UK without one, and its compulsory for every horse. As a consequence the number of horses being slaughtered has dropped.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it doesnt happen here at all. It is just less prevalent.

Heres a good link if you are interested in the passport system http://www.bhs.org.uk/Content/Ods-More.asp?id=1703&pg=Welfare&spg=Library&area=4

I think you need to start looking a little deeper....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1884945,00.html

The slaughtered horses that shame our racing

An undercover Observer investigation has revealed the shocking fate of thousands of British racehorses. Now campaigners want new laws to govern the sport

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.htm

The Horses and Ponies Protection Association was formed in 1937 with the specific aim of banning the export of live UK equines for slaughter to continental abattoirs.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,,1890442,00.html

Campaign to outlaw horse killings

US group steps in after The Observer reveals 7,000 young thoroughbreds are shot every year

One of America's leading animal welfare groups is to launch a major campaign in Britain next year aimed at outlawing the slaughter of horses in this country to be exported for human consumption.
Last week, an Observer investigation revealed that as many as 7,000 horses a year are shot in two UK abattoirs. We disclosed how their throats are slit, their bodies hanged upside down and skinned before they are butchered to be sold across the Channel as gourmet meat. Many are thoroughbreds that have finished racing or never made the grade. The disclosure shocked many people in the animal world.

[county]

Me thinks some have no clue what there talking about and maybe need to take care of their own " problem "

[MSP]

Oh wait here is the best one yet

http://www.britishhorseslaughter.org/index/index.asp

Where there are horses and a demand for horse meat there will be slaughter! They harvest horses from nearly every country to fill the demand for horse meat. Even in countries that don't eat horses and in some cases where it is illegal to eat horse meat.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/slaughter.htm


Nice business ay!

[Prieta]

Give those horses away for free to good homes! I want to bring home a Trakhener mare that is being offered for a free lease but right now, I'm busy. If I'm not busy, I'd bring her home - she gave birth to many wonderful babies and her owner wants her to have a nice home. So, I'm sure that there are many people like me who'd LOVE to have a horse that is no longer wanted to come home.

BTW, somone dumped an old horse at my trainer's farm - now, he is at home with us.

[kelliope]

I believe those breeding horses have an obligation to keep breeding programs to a level that can be managed. It's the same with puppy mills. I am not in favor of those either.

I dreamt of having a pony farm - really wanted to have a farm that produced really good dressage ponies and hunters, but now know I will never do it. I cannot in good conscience distribute ponies into the world without really knowing what happens to them. Especially with my recent education about the horse world.

However, if I did have a breeding farm I would manage my business in such a way that I did not have to sell off my broodmares to slaughter after they gave me so many foals. There are other ways to make money to supplement a breeding program - training, boarding, lessons, etc. I would find a way to make it work. But I won't be doing it because I can't see myself ever selling another horse after some of the things I have been reading recently. :(

[scottishgirl]

Well, according to equine advocates you have 100,000 horses being slaughtered in the USA, and 23,000 odd exported to canada for the same reason.

We have 7000 horses every year that get slaughtered (still too many). We only have 3 slaughter plants in the whole of the UK. I understand that of course that you are a far larger country, but we do not have a situation where "kill buyers" are going round buying up large amounts of horses for meat. We are far closer to the Dutch model described earlier in this thread (i think) where an individual horse is taken to the slaughter house.

We have no export of live horses abroad for slaughter, due to minimum worth law which means that horses can only be exported if they are worth more than a predefined value which is more than the slaughters will pay.

Again, its the racing industry which feeds this, and again I argue that it is because too much poor quality stock is beign produced. We dont however have a situation where people have large ranches with a hundreds of horses on it who have no intention of doing anything other than slaughter them, or breeders who accept that a certain amount of "wastage" is par for the course.

Just to add the final line from the Australian study for those who cant be bothered reading it properly
"But while ever unwanted horses of any breed or type continue to be bred, slaughter and the horsemeat trade will remain options for their disposal, a profitable form of convenience euthanasia."

[kelliope]

Me thinks some have no clue what there talking about and maybe need to take care of their own " problem "

At least she is trying to understand and is trying to offer something positive. Just because she, as is true with the rest of us, doesn't have all the answers doesn't mean she doesn't have a clue.

[scottishgirl]

Thanks very much for that Kelliope

[Paragon]

I believe those breeding horses have an obligation to keep breeding programs to a level that can be managed. It's the same with puppy mills. I am not in favor of those either.

I don't disagree, but I point you (and everyone else) back to the post I made about breeding farms, I think it's back a page. There've been no comments on it yet, so either I was so ridiculous that it didn't warrant a response, or I'm so incredibly profound that nobody saw fit to argue. I'll pretend the latter. ;) :D

How do we weigh the matter of overbreeding against the apparent necessity to produce outstanding performance individuals - which, frankly, can be a real crap shoot?

[Coyoteco]

Hi MSP;

coyoteco;
I just think that assuming that you cant ban the industry, all you can do is stop the flow of horses into it.

Do you think it will be banned?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I do think that horse slaughter can be banned. In fact, I think that it will be banned in the near future. The confusion in my post must have come from my response to County, wherein I stated that slaughter of cattle and pigs as an industry was too powerful to be subject to any banning as a method of forcing that industry to utilize more humane methods. The horse slaughter industry is not that strong.

As for the differences between England/Scotland and the US relating to the slaughter of horses, I'll have to read this thread when I have time. Where on the surface our countries are very similar, there are many, many differences in our approaches to government and other things. When I discuss politics with my relatives who live in London, it's often reveals surprising fundamental differences.

As for here, the only problem is the existence of slaughter as a method of horse owners making money on their horses. Once that is remedied, any related problems will eventually work themselves out without government interference.

[MSP]

Well, according to equine advocates you have 100,000 horses being slaughtered in the USA, and 23,000 odd exported to canada for the same reason.

We have 7000 horses every year that get slaughtered (still too many). We only have 3 slaughter plants in the whole of the UK. I understand that of course that you are a far larger country, but we do not have a situation where "kill buyers" are going round buying up large amounts of horses for meat. We are far closer to the Dutch model described earlier in this thread (i think) where an individual horse is taken to the slaughter house.

We have no export of live horses abroad for slaughter, due to minimum worth law which means that horses can only be exported if they are worth more than a predefined value which is more than the slaughters will pay.

Again, its the racing industry which feeds this, and again I argue that it is because too much poor quality stock is beign produced. We dont however have a situation where people have large ranches with a hundreds of horses on it who have no intention of doing anything other than slaughter them, or breeders who accept that a certain amount of "wastage" is par for the course.

Just to add the final line from the Australian study for those who cant be bothered reading it properly
"But while ever unwanted horses of any breed or type continue to be bred, slaughter and the horsemeat trade will remain options for their disposal, a profitable form of convenience euthanasia."

According to the second site I found the UK slaughters 35,000 horses a year. The 7000 was just race horses. That site states that race horses make up 20% of the horses going to slaughter.

I have to say I am shocked that you would comment on the US slaughter issue when you are not informed on the issue in your own country.

BTW, we only have three slaughter plants all foreign owned.

[scottishgirl]

"As for here, the only problem is the existence of slaughter as a method of horse owners making money on their horses. Once that is remedied, any related problems will eventually work themselves out without government interference."

And I think youve just got it in one.

[county]

I think the same thing how can someone knock one country for something they also do?

As far as anyone telling another what they would do its real easy when you don't actually do it. Everything looks real rosy on paper real life isn't the same way.

[county]

Gee people that make money in a business. What is the world coming to?

[kelliope]

I don't disagree, but I point you (and everyone else) back to the post I made about breeding farms, I think it's back a page. There've been no comments on it yet, so either I was so ridiculous that it didn't warrant a response, or I'm so incredibly profound that nobody saw fit to argue. I'll pretend the latter. ;) :D

How do we weigh the matter of overbreeding against the apparent necessity to produce outstanding performance individuals - which, frankly, can be a real crap shoot?

Good question. I do think that by breeding the best of the best and breeding selectively we have a greater chance of improving quality. Indiscriminate breeding (which I have seen quite a bit of actually) or breeding poor quality horses is only going to exacerbate the problem. I can't tell you how many "breeders" I have seen breeding horses that have severe lameness problems due to conformational issues and people who have really talented stallions who will breed them to anything on 4 legs even if it's limping on 1!

I don't have all the answers, but I think much of the world's problems, especially the horse world, are due to greed.

[scottishgirl]

Id be interested to know where you got that figure from. As far as I was aware the peak of slaughter figures was in 1982, and was 26,000, and that figure is from DEFRA.

If you are going by petitionsite.com then......OK whateva! likewise britishhorseslaughter.org - if you take time to read it you'll soon realise its hysterical pants.

[kelliope]

Gee people that make money in a business. What is the world coming to?

No problem with people making money in a business as long it is not necessary to add to the suffering of the world just to make a buck.

Edited to clarify: I mean that if I had to send my horses to slaughter in order to make a profit from my breeding business then I wouldn't do the breeding business. I would look for ways to supplement my business so that it could be profitable without having to send any horses to slaughter.

[county]

But you see it doesn't matter to me what you would do its only talk you've never done it so you can't prove you would do anything. And i agree people shouldn't make money from suffering but eating meat and butchering livestock to me isn't doing that. Painless? No not at all but then theres a certain amount of pain doing many things in life.

[MSP]

Id be interested to know where you got that figure from. As far as I was aware the peak of slaughter figures was in 1982, and was 26,000, and that figure is from DEFRA.

If you are going by petitionsite.com then......OK whateva! likewise britishhorseslaughter.org - if you take time to read it you'll soon realise its hysterical pants.

http://www.ilph.org/advice/equinepop.asp

According to the numbers on this site, and if my calculations are correct, the UK slaughters approximately 35% of its horse population while the US only slaughters 1% of its total equine population. Mighty interesting! Apparently we bury more horses where the UK uses slaughter as a form of euthanasia. They consider burial a problem!

Total population figure of 975,000 equines has been put forward for the UK

The research indicates that approximately 34, 520 equines are disposed of annually, 52% going to knackers yards, 29% to abattoirs for export as horsemeat and 19% to hunt kennels. On the whole, there are currently few problems experienced with the disposal of horses in the UK, except in Scotland where the incidence of burial is believed to be high. This situation may change with the implementation of EU legislation with regard to emission controls and a potential hunting ban causing disposal of horse carcasses to become more difficult and more expensive. There is no evidence of any confirmed incidences of equines being exported alive from the UK for meat.

[scottishgirl]

29% of 34520 is 10, 000 far closer to 7000 than the 35000 you previously slung at me i think you will find.

Im talking about human consumption here, not every single horse that has to get put down.

If you calmed down a bit and actually read the stuff you are frantically googling maybe we could get somewhere.

[county]

So you slaughter 29% of your horses and your upset we slaughter 1%?

[scottishgirl]

No, 29% of all horses that are put down are put down for slaughter as meat.

[MSP]

29% of 34520 is 10, 000 far closer to 7000 than the 35000 you previously slung at me i think you will find.

Im talking about human consumption here, not every single horse that has to get put down.

If you calmed down a bit and actually read the stuff you are frantically googling maybe we could get somewhere.

According to you it doesn’t happen over here!

Hi MSP;

Im also curious as to why the industry exists in the US at all. If you guys dont eat horse meat I dont really understand why you are a cheap source of horse meat when you take into account moving it halfway round the world. That must mean that you have proportionally more "broken down" horses than in Europe, or proportionally more "unwanted as work animals" than in Europe. Again, that puzzles me. I can only assume that more horses are bred than needed for work.

As we dont have this over here I can only assume that we must do something different. Im curious as to what that difference is, especially as we are closer, and it would make more sense for us to have a horse meat industry than you guys. If that wasnt what you meant then apologies.

And my point about making slaughter illegal is that its probably an impossible/v diff thing to do (bearing in mind the strength of opinions on both sides), as well as possibly holding animal welfare consequences.

[county]

If you don't have slaugfhter in your country at all why are you killing 29% for meat? Your very confusing. Or you don't have a clue what your talking about one or the other. If you slaughter anything over the 1% we do and you think we have a problem. Exactly what is it you think you have?

[scottishgirl]

What i mean by that is kill buyers that go around sales buying up lorryloads of horses for slaughter. The only instance we have of that is a single population of feral horses.

Its not an industry in its own right here, we dont breed horses specifically for that purpose, and breeders dont have that option in the back of their mind when they breed too many horses as a matter of course. Yes the race industry sucks, but again its individual horses that get taken to the slaughter house. We do not have a situation where we have pens filled with skinny ill neglected horses being auctioned for that purpose like in the states.

edited to reiterate - we dont kill 29% of all our horses for meat. Its 29% of all horses being put down for all reasons. And again, if you actually bother to read the article you would learn that they are very tentative figures, and that the UK horse population has been underestimated in the past so its reasonable to assume that that figure is again smaller, reducing that % even further. In addition to that that study was conducted before the passport laws were passed, and the number of horses being slaughtered has dropped since then.

[scottishgirl]

Anyway, Im bored of being knocked for trying to have an intelligent discussion about the differences between our countries.

Ill leave it to someone that still has the will to live :sadsmile:

I took the bait didnt I.............

[MSP]

The only difference is we are spread out more so people take their horses to sale yards. They sell the horse and go home, those horses that were purchased by kill buyers go to a slaughter house.

I would say your horses don’t have the long abusive rides as ours do but they still get slaughtered. Are you going to tell me you don’t have sale yards? Do they slaughter horses but don’t pay the person for the horse?

We DO NOT breed horses for slaughter. No one here thinks hay I think I will buy 40 acres and breed horses for slaughter! The cheapest horse on the market as a breeding goal! It would be more profitable to breed cattle.

Show me better figures! When you hear slaughter in the USA it means meat not just human consumption. They sell horse meat to zoos also.

You were not discussing the differences between our countries because you were not aware of what is going on in yours! And you are clueless about what happens here.

[county]

I think your leaving because its been shown your not interested in haveing a discussion your interested in knocking a country that has a smaller perceived problem then your own.

[kelliope]

I just want to thank you, scottishgirl, for trying to enter the discussion and for trying to help figure out why this situation has happened. I am sorry you got beat up in the process. I am glad you are against slaughter of horses. Thanks!

[county]

Beat up? I don't see where she took any more of a beating then she gave? You take shots at people you have to expect to get shot back at. If not you should never fire first.

[kelliope]

I didn't really see her taking shots at people. It seems she was just trying to understand. I, for one, know how easy it can be to find conflicting statistics and information. I think she was just trying to understand and whether or not she was mis-informed, I am not sure, but she seemed polite and just wanting information and ideas.

[county]

Maybe we didn't talk slow enough or use what was she said " common sense"?

[JumpingPaints]

I will guarantee you that if I had 1/10th of the money that the anti-slaughter people have, I could have a poll, just like the ones you provided, showing that the majority of the people think that eventing is morally wrong and should be outlawed. Polls using people who aren't familiar with the topic really don't carry much weight with me. Humans are very reactive animals and tend to follow emotion over intellect and follow the flock (Baaaa, Baaaa). Are you aware of the amount of money that goes into PR and lobbying from the slaughter industry?? There is a lot more money going into their cause on that end than from the anti-slaughter groups! If they could get a poll to support slaughter, it would certainly have been done.


I just wish that people would stop trying to outlaw slaughter and put their time and money into making the process humane, which I feel is a much more worthy and obtainable goal.The groups trying to outlaw slaughter have worked for years to try and make the process more humane. They have met with the slaughterhouses who refused their requests for changes and monitoring. And as recently as 2002, transportation laws were improved. However, they are not enforced, the USDA turns a blind eye to infractions they may be in a position to catch. If you realistically consider the expense, complication and time to overhaul and enforce the transportation and processing for horses to make the system more humane, you would realize it would never happen, because it would make the business unprofitable and require a huge burden on our government to enforce.

[county]

Exactly what was propsed to the slaughter houses and were those proposals made to all of them or just one?

[appaloosalady]

PaintJumper - Could you show me some examples of pro-slaughter PR work? I have seen tons and tons of anti pamplets, videos, etc. but don't recall ever seeing anything even remotely similar put out by the slaughter industry. As far as making slaughter humane being harder, more expensive, and more difficult to enforce than a complete ban on slaughter - I respectfully disagree. Mexico and Canada aren't going to ban slaughter anytime soon. Our horses will just have longer trips to reach the same end. Laws against shipping horses out of the country for slaughter are just plain ridiculous and could never be enforced unless you wanted to ban all international shipping. Closing the plants in the US isn't going to solve anything, it will just let people pat themselves on the back and say "look - no more slaughter in the U.S....Yipee!" Horse will still suffer the abuse of tranport and inhumane slaughter conditions, just not in this country - does that really make it better?

[Vos]

And another lurker crawls out of the woodwork...

I do think scottishgirl needs defending, and since some people asked for opinions from us evil horse-eating, meat-breeding europeans i consider myself invited :D
I am Dutch. I did work in the US for a while though, so I have some idea how things work over on your side.

Slaughter here is a fact of life. Most horsepeople, including me, think it is generally a more humane option than having a horse "put to sleep", which can be a VERY bad experience. It is the bad transport conditions and industry-like handling of the live horses that should be fought. HARD. That would probably mean more and smaller slaughterhouses, not less. Forbid slaughter in the USA, and the awful transports will just take longer.

Personally, I do not see why eating horsemeat is worse than eating beef, or lamb, or pork. I would not buy it specifically, it is hardly available on its own anyway because it is considered inferior meat, but most cheap fried snacks contain horsemeat.
I was not allowed to have a pony when I was a little kid, so I trained a sheep :D She pulled a cart, could walk, trot and canter on the longe, herded the other sheep at voice command and did circus tricks. My cousins would ride it. She was smarter and more affectionate than many horses I have trained.
Last year a girl did a jumping course with her saddletrained cow at a horse event. For a picture: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3886/springendekoe39025h2qo.jpg
Does this make sheep and cattle off limits too?

As for the argument that having a slaughter ban will stop overbreeding: That would be good, but I don't believe so. Just look at the greyhound racing industry, which I think is comparable in this sense. There is NO economical value to a dead greyhound AT ALL. Still, every year tens of thousands of greyhounds are put down. Like horses, they keep costing money as long as they are alive. The cost of having them put down is less.

Paragon had a very good point. Breeding is an uncertain business. Even with a very good breeder, only a very small percentage of horses will be excellent, and these are the ones that advance the breed and the breeder will make money on. The majority will be OK. You sell them as general riding horses and cut your losses. Some will be below average. If no-one buys those to ride, what then? Any proper breeder will only breed very good mares to very good stallions, but even then, only a few foals will be great.

Anyway, it seems to me the anti-slaughter group consists of both people who find it immoral to eat horsemeat and people who are against because of the conditions that surround it, and the pro-slaughter group has people who are in favour because they think it's okay the way it is and those who think it would make conditions worse if it was forbidden. Why don't the latter sections of each group combine and aim all that will into getting horse (or animal) treatment conditions better? If public opinion can come his close to abolishing slaughter, it should be more than strong enough to get tighter and implemented legislation about general welfare issues.

[Coyoteco]

And another lurker crawls out of the woodwork...

Anyway, it seems to me the anti-slaughter group consists of both people who find it immoral to eat horsemeat and people who are against because of the conditions that surround it, and the pro-slaughter group has people who are in favour because they think it's okay the way it is and those who think it would make conditions worse if it was forbidden. Why don't the latter sections of each group combine and aim all that will into getting horse (or animal) treatment conditions better? If public opinion can come his close to abolishing slaughter, it should be more than strong enough to get tighter and implemented legislation about general welfare issues.

Stop the slaughter until the industry is fixed. Then the issue of whether horse slaughter should exist in the US can be revisited. I do not understand how people who profess to love horses can say that horses should continue to be subject to inhumane slaughter houses while the humans fight out the poitics of "fixing" the slaughter system. It is a rather simple idea for those who support horse slaughter but who also think the problem is that the slaugher industry is inhumane for horses: Stop the slaughter. Fix the system. Then restart slaughter. If one thinks the system is inhumane, it is illogical to say that horses should be subject to that system before the problems with it are remedied.
This part is really quite simple.
The conflict between whether to allow horse slaughter in the US should not even come up until there is a humane way to slaughter horses. At that point, reasonable minds can differ. At this point, there is only one reasonable opinion for people who think the horse slaughter system as it exists in the US is not humane -ban it until the problems are resolved.

[county]

I think we both know if it were banned theres no way the anti groups woyuuld ever say it was humane your not kidding anyone except maybe yourself.

What I don't understand is how people like you can decide who loves horses and what they think. You don't have a clue.

[YoungFilly]

And another lurker crawls out of the woodwork...

I do think scottishgirl needs defending, and since some people asked for opinions from us evil horse-eating, meat-breeding europeans i consider myself invited :D
I am Dutch. I did work in the US for a while though, so I have some idea how things work over on your side.

Slaughter here is a fact of life. Most horsepeople, including me, think it is generally a more humane option than having a horse "put to sleep", which can be a VERY bad experience. It is the bad transport conditions and industry-like handling of the live horses that should be fought. HARD. That would probably mean more and smaller slaughterhouses, not less. Forbid slaughter in the USA, and the awful transports will just take longer.

Personally, I do not see why eating horsemeat is worse than eating beef, or lamb, or pork. I would not buy it specifically, it is hardly available on its own anyway because it is considered inferior meat, but most cheap fried snacks contain horsemeat.
I was not allowed to have a pony when I was a little kid, so I trained a sheep :D She pulled a cart, could walk, trot and canter on the longe, herded the other sheep at voice command and did circus tricks. My cousins would ride it. She was smarter and more affectionate than many horses I have trained.
Last year a girl did a jumping course with her saddletrained cow at a horse event. For a picture: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3886/springendekoe39025h2qo.jpg
Does this make sheep and cattle off limits too?

As for the argument that having a slaughter ban will stop overbreeding: That would be good, but I don't believe so. Just look at the greyhound racing industry, which I think is comparable in this sense. There is NO economical value to a dead greyhound AT ALL. Still, every year tens of thousands of greyhounds are put down. Like horses, they keep costing money as long as they are alive. The cost of having them put down is less.

Paragon had a very good point. Breeding is an uncertain business. Even with a very good breeder, only a very small percentage of horses will be excellent, and these are the ones that advance the breed and the breeder will make money on. The majority will be OK. You sell them as general riding horses and cut your losses. Some will be below average. If no-one buys those to ride, what then? Any proper breeder will only breed very good mares to very good stallions, but even then, only a few foals will be great.

Anyway, it seems to me the anti-slaughter group consists of both people who find it immoral to eat horsemeat and people who are against because of the conditions that surround it, and the pro-slaughter group has people who are in favour because they think it's okay the way it is and those who think it would make conditions worse if it was forbidden. Why don't the latter sections of each group combine and aim all that will into getting horse (or animal) treatment conditions better? If public opinion can come his close to abolishing slaughter, it should be more than strong enough to get tighter and implemented legislation about general welfare issues.

Vos, for your first post, right on!

This thread is turning into something that we have to deal with in current main stream topics. Is it your right to have an abortion or not? Should anyone tell you you can't? Do you think its ethical to proceed with embryonic stem cell research? *Its polarizing*. There is never going to be a clear consensus on these topics.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about slaughter. Hear me out. PLEASE.

I am not pro slaughter, but there was an article in People magazine (a normal non horsey US mag for our European counterparts) last month about cats and dogs in no-kill shelters. PETA is (believe it or not) against no kill shelters because the plights of the animals in some of these shelters is, unfortunately, while the owners/operators have the best intentions, they get overrun, and they, instead of helping the animal, are actually hurting them because they run out of funds. They had pictures of cats that were as malnourished as bad as the horses that we have seen.

I personally like the idea (that I saw here) the way that they do it in Europe. Where the horse has no idea its going to happen, no conveyer belt where they can smell and see other horses dying, and they get a bullet in the head. If the horse is to be used for meat, and can't get the cocktail then the bullet (not the BOLT) might be the best option.

By the way, as a side note.... something some people may not know. If you do have your horse humanely euthanized, that doesn't mean your not going to experience shock when they are put down. There have been quite a few instances where even though the horse is tranquilized by drugs, they still sometimes appear to try to run away, and have major seizures. We are not horses, we do not have any idea on what they actually feel in those last minutes. Heck, I do not know how my mother felt in her last few seconds, it appeared very, very scary, and that was (to me) terrifying! You can console yourself all you want, until you are the individual, horse/person/cat whatever your not going to really know. The body can work without the brains consent you know.

Anyway, If the meat (horse/dog/cat) could be used for third world countries that did not have food to eat, I would have a lot easier time with this. But, because its considered a delicacy, thats an issue.

[Coyoteco]

County, perhaps you need to step back, and reread my post. I think you are misreading it because you are connecting it with other posts that you've been reading in this thread.

Vos, for your first post, right on!

PETA is (believe it or not) against no kill shelters because the plights of the animals in some of these shelters is, unfortunately, while the owners/operators have the best intentions, they get overrun, and they, instead of helping the animal, are actually hurting them because they run out of funds.


If this is what People Magazine said, People Magazine is incorrect or PETA is misrepresenting its previously-stated positions. Having fought this battle with PETA I can tell you their position. PETA members have told me and others that its position is that animals should never have been domesticated in the first place and that domesticated animals should die. These conversations specifically related to whether animal shelters should be no-kill. I am a proponent of no-kill animal shelter and the people who run them. They are some of the most amazing people in the world. I'm not anti-PETA and support some of the things they stand for. This position is one that I do not support or agree with. I think they should be honest in their positions, too.

[YoungFilly]

Coyoteco, I know what you mean, I can scan the article and show it, Its true! They did tell People that. Last months issue! Thats truly the last thing I would have expected. Alas its true. Maybe they are trying to be more reasonable?

Edited to add:

Here is the article, I can scan for validity.

November 6, 2006 (I guess this months, not LAST months) I read while I am sitting in the car, because my SO LOVES to drive and I get completely bored, so I read, read and read some more.

Keith (Urbans) Struggle to get Sober. Page 99, With their policy against euthinazia, no kill shelters are spreading across the country- and raising serious questions about whether they are good for cats and dogs.

[JumpingPaints]

PaintJumper - Could you show me some examples of pro-slaughter PR work? I have seen tons and tons of anti pamplets, videos, etc. but don't recall ever seeing anything even remotely similar put out by the slaughter industry.

I'm guessing this is addressed to me, since I didn't see PaintJumper post here?

With regards to the PR stuff, I'm not sure if you expect the information to say "brought to you by Beltex?" You will find stuff, especially if you read some of the old slaughter threads here, where it has been discussed at length before. There is one video that has been linked. (How many good videos can you make on the cause of horse slaughter... makes sense that they don't concentrate on spreading visuals of what they do, but rather repeating their message that the US needs slaughter to control the unwanted horse population with efforts like the Unwanted Horse Summit, for example) There have been reports of slaughterhouses paying the European media not to print stories drug residues in US horsemeat. I don't know why it's such a stretch that the slaughterhouses do this - it's not illegal to hire these people, and it's no different from any other industry hiring lobbyists and PR firms to help protect their interests.


As far as making slaughter humane being harder, more expensive, and more difficult to enforce than a complete ban on slaughter - I respectfully disagree. Mexico and Canada aren't going to ban slaughter anytime soon. Here (http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=847) is a recent article on the growing Canadian movement to ban slaughter there and here is a Canadian web site (http://www.defendhorsescanada.org/info.php?id=20060918) about it. I'm not saying it will happen tomorrow, but there is growing opposition there as well.


Our horses will just have longer trips to reach the same end. Laws against shipping horses out of the country for slaughter are just plain ridiculous and could never be enforced unless you wanted to ban all international shipping. I am wondering what proof you have of this. There was a debate about this recently until a poster reported a conversation with a USDA vet at the Mexico border: First, all horses are off loaded and a pen inspection is done for soundness/Humane transport violations. He stated that 4 downed horses were removed yesterday from a double decker. Two of them were dead on the trailer. The other two were refused to be allowed to be reloaded and are being cared for at the location of the pens. Sadly, he did say that they do not charge the shippers with violations as he said that it is too much paperwork, and he'd rather just get the horses off. If they recover enough, they may be reloaded in the future to go to slaughter.

Currently slaughter horses do not need coggins or health cert or vaccination. Regular horses reguire Coggins, International health cert, proof of vaccination for EEE, WEE within 15 days prior to crossing. You must pay a broker to cross a non slaughter horse. Fees will vary, up to 200.00-800.00 per horse. Plus you must pay yardage at a holding site.

He did say, that if transport to slaughter is banned, that he will be enforcing it, as he said that if you see transporters cramming horses in trailers frequently crossing, it is pretty easy to tell that they are going to slaughter. He even laughed and said that the slaughter horses he gets through couldn't be mistaken for show horses.

He also said that when double deckers are banned he would enforce that.

And to import slaughter horses legally into Canada under the pretenses of "riding horses" requires the following: A Federal Veterinary inspection certificate, which must be done in person by a vet (cost involved). The Canadian border patrol will generally just look at the horses on the trailer, but occasionally they will request that the horses be unloaded. Importation papers must be filled out and a broker is required to process the paper work, (yes, more $$$ required here). They will want to see the vet papers, bill of sale, Coggins results, way bill and vessel clearance papers. Depending on how busy the crossing is, it can take two hours to clear for one horse. Not every border crossing has a vet. You will require a broker to clear your horse. It generally costs about $75 US. plus the GST (7% of bill of sale) coming into Canada. So if slaughter is banned here, it would would be a time-consuming and expensive (and illegal) process that would deter shippers from taking truckloads of horses for slaughter in Canada.

[nightsong]

Bullet IS the best way. Drug reactions are unpredictable, and the most common way in this country (U.S.), the dying of exposure, is a very long period of suffering.

[MoonBallad]

I got news for ya price can go up a whole lot and people aren't going to stop eating unless there willing to starve to death and I'm thinking not many are.

You know...somehow I just don't think people are going to starve to death if the US bans horse slaughter and we no longer supply meat for sales overseas. God what an absurd comment!

[MoonBallad]

If breeders kept all the livestock they use for breeding till they died of old age they would be out of business in not many years. On this place I have at any given time 60 to 80 head of livestock used for breeding. If I kept everyone after it no longer produced until its death of old age how long do you think it would be till I'm feeding 100's of animals that generate no income? How long do you think I'd stay in business feeding them?

county...
I just very curious, exactly what kind of horses do you breed? And about how many a year?
I'm only asking because I don't keep nearly as many broodmares as you but they are all top quality mares and we breed them to the same quality stallions. We do very well with considerably less than 60-80 and produce far fewer horses than I suppose you do in a year. So I know first hand that IS possible to make a nice living without over-producing if one breeds for quality and not quantity.

[poltroon]

A captive bolt is just a bullet on a stick. Same trauma as a bullet, less risk of accident. The problem isn't the tool, but the operator.

[county]

Its very easy to see the horses I breed through my profile, which ones don't you feel are quality? And can you show me where I ever in any way said people will starve if we don't sell horse meat over seas. I think your making things up again to suit your agenda.

[county]

BTW I breed way less then 60 to 80 also but then I never said I bred 60 to horses a year.

[snkstacres]

For fear of doing damage to my rescue farm, I have never said one single word about the slaughter debate but I certainly have an opinion or what I believe to be an answer at least. This trainwreck though seems to be the one with the most sensible answers period. We will absolutely have to learn to accept different cultures and ways. There is no room for prejudice in todays world. We dont have to agree but tolerance is a must. Along with that though goes the right to humane treatment of all living things. Human and animal.

I could not bear to see my doggies be on dinner plate but I suppose if I had been raised in China, I might not see anything wrong with it either. My parents were European and horse meat was a staple, they sure didnt eat it when them immigrated and love horses in general. My parents were not bad people and nor did they contribute to the slaughter issue.

I worked for a zillion years in animal control and you bet, there was a lot of waste.

The answer in my opinion is simple, getting people to follow the rules is not. Education, education, education. Careful and considerate breeding. There are way too many horses in this country that are homeless. Taking care of those first is a must. Control of the way our equine are shipped is a key factor here. That is where the true atrocities are suffered by those going to the slaughter house. Auction houses stepping up to the plate and not allowing animals in horrid shape to go through in the first place. Having a vet on hand to humanely euthanize those on three legs, or those so thin they cant possibly withstand a trip, properly and humanely cared for without getting on the trailer. Of course, that will keep them hidden in peoples back yards right.

Ending cruelty of all forms to all human and animals is the ONLY answer. then what we eat or where we are from wouldnt even come into play. And education is the answer to that. And since we cant seem to train even adults to play nice, start with the children. Teach them to respect life, all life.

[county]

For years I pushed to get the two sides to work together for changes in transport and kill floors like was done in the cattle industry. I no longer think thats possable and have quit trying. For just over 40 years I've raised horses and all that time the anti slaughter fraction has kept hammering they want a 100% ban anything less they will not accept. Well their " all or nothing " stance so far has gotten them nothing. The sad part is thats what the horses have gotten also. IMO their wants take place way ahead of horse welfare which to me is very sad. If the anti side is more then willing to take the " all or nothing " approach I've decided so am I and no doubt so is the slaughter industry they have nothing to lose. Only ones going to lose is the horses yet to be slaughtered under the current system.

[Sannois]

A captive bolt is just a bullet on a stick. Same trauma as a bullet, less risk of accident. The problem isn't the tool, but the operator.

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt it used to be the tool of choice to euthanize horses?? They called it the Humane Killer?? Maybe it was in Dick Francis or Herriots books I read that!

[Sannois]

For years I pushed to get the two sides to work together for changes in transport and kill floors like was done in the cattle industry. I no longer think thats possable and have quit trying. For just over 40 years I've raised horses and all that time the anti slaughter fraction has kept hammering they want a 100% ban anything less they will not accept. Well their " all or nothing " stance so far has gotten them nothing. The sad part is thats what the horses have gotten also. IMO their wants take place way ahead of horse welfare which to me is very sad. If the anti side is more then willing to take the " all or nothing " approach I've decided so am I and no doubt so is the slaughter industry they have nothing to lose. Only ones going to lose is the horses yet to be slaughtered under the current system.
Thats usually the way most radical groups work.. their agenda first even to the detriment of the cause!
:no:

[Alagirl]

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt it used to be the tool of choice to euthanize horses?? They called it the Humane Killer?? Maybe it was in Dick Francis or Herriots books I read that!


It was in one of the Dick Francis books, the bad guy eventually gets offed with it as well...but I can't remember the name...the second one to feature the Jockey Christmas....

[Vos]

Stop the slaughter until the industry is fixed. Then the issue of whether horse slaughter should exist in the US can be revisited. I do not understand how people who profess to love horses can say that horses should continue to be subject to inhumane slaughter houses while the humans fight out the poitics of "fixing" the slaughter system. It is a rather simple idea for those who support horse slaughter but who also think the problem is that the slaugher industry is inhumane for horses: Stop the slaughter. Fix the system. Then restart slaughter. If one thinks the system is inhumane, it is illogical to say that horses should be subject to that system before the problems with it are remedied.
This part is really quite simple.
The conflict between whether to allow horse slaughter in the US should not even come up until there is a humane way to slaughter horses. At that point, reasonable minds can differ. At this point, there is only one reasonable opinion for people who think the horse slaughter system as it exists in the US is not humane -ban it until the problems are resolved.

I would not choose to ban horse slaughter because it would make impossible what I would think of as the main part of a solution for the welfare issue: more local slaughterhouses and butchers. The horses would not have to travel such punishing distances, and since quantities would be much smaller there would not be such a factory mindset. The meat could still be exported or sold locally as pet food.

Also, according to one anti-slaughter organization http://www.saplonline.org/horses_stats.htm, 91,717 horses were slaughtered in the US last year. If slaughter were abandoned, where would they go? Who would home and feed them? And what about next year's crop? And the next? There are worse options than death. Scottishgirl did have a point. The US does seem to have a big surplus of unwanted and sometimes uncared for healthy horses. No breeder or owner will sell a healthy horse to a slaughterhouse if there are is a better offer available.

As to tighter rules for welfare making slaughter uneconomical: That has not happened in the EU, even though it is a much bigger market. Here, rules are quite tight and getting tighter (All killers, drivers and animal handlers are licensed for the job, horses will soon not be allowed to travel more than 9 hours (now 24) or 500 km without offloading for 24h, have food and water in the vehicle etc). Horses now have a chip and passport to make this checkable. There are still some VERY bad situations found on the road, but rules are generally enforced. Of course, the idea is that animals should be slaughtered as close to home as possible. According to EU figures, only about 5% of horses butchered in the EU will have a trip this long.

I do agree that this is a major moral issue. I do not agree that those should necessarily be polarising. It is often better to compromise somewhat to get a resolution and assume everyone in their own way is working towards the common good, than to think "who's not with me is against me" and start hitting the trenches. But hey, these probably are cultural values as well :winkgrin:

[county]

There used to be more slaughter plants spread accross the country there was one here in Mn. for a number of years. It worked very well horses were loaded up in trailers they knew by people they saw every day. Hauled short distances, unloaded and killed within a couple hours much as our cull cows are now. Unfortunatly due to terrorists making threat on workers and their families many of them closed up business and horses are now forced to travel long distances. Always makes me wonder why those type people hate horses?

[Coyoteco]

Also, according to one anti-slaughter organization http://www.saplonline.org/horses_stats.htm, 91,717 horses were slaughtered in the US last year. If slaughter were abandoned, where would they go? Who would home and feed them?:winkgrin:

Most would go on living in their pastures, being feed and cared for. Some would die normal, natural deaths at home and some would be euthanized. Take the profit out of killing the family horse, and people will just give it away or keep feeding it. It takes a little more effort to sell a horse to a private buyer or even to give it away, but if there is no money in slaughtering it, most horse owners will find a more humane way to get it another place to live - or they'll keep feeding it. Social pressure keeps many horses from being, starved, neglected or abused - and that will work for most of these horses as well.
.

[JumpingPaints]

I would not choose to ban horse slaughter because it would make impossible what I would think of as the main part of a solution for the welfare issue: more local slaughterhouses and butchers. This would definitely make the travel distances shorter, therefore less suffering. However, suggesting more slaughter houses is unrealistic, because no one wants them in their communities - just look at the ongoing legal battle (http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/kaufmanherald083106.htm) between the town of Kaufman and Dallas Crown. The opening of more horse slaughter plants will not happen.

Also, according to one anti-slaughter organization http://www.saplonline.org/horses_stats.htm, 91,717 horses were slaughtered in the US last year. If slaughter were abandoned, where would they go? I think more people would have responded to this question, but it has been answered so many times here. What would happen if you had a car for sale and it didn't sell? You'd keep it until it did, or perhaps donate it if you really wanted it off your hands. The unwanted horses myth also falls down since many horses go to slaughter are stolen or bought under misrepresentation. Historically, the # of horses slaughtered has decreased, while the number of horses born has increased amounting to fluctuations up to 90,000 horses a year, without horses abandoned wandering the countryside. The number of horses slaughtered has nothing to do with the number of unwanted horses. It is driven by the European demand for horsemeat.

Here are some links that address this myth:
http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/Where%20Would%20All%20The%20Horses%20Go.htm
http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/sweenyletter090706.jpg
http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf

I am not saying there are not horses out there that are difficult to find a home for because of lameness, temperment or conformation issues. But these are not the only horses going to slaughter. The majority are nice, healthy horses that could have lived productive lives.

[Vos]

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horseme...orses%20Go.htm
http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horseme...tter090706.jpg
http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf

Phew! some amount of reading that was!
I found a MAJOR point in mr. Sweeney's letter that may mean we are partly talking about the same thing. Apparently, shooting your own horse and using it any way you like, including eating it, is allowed in the US, and not considered to be slaughter even by the anti-slaughter movement. To me, this makes it entirely unclear what is meant by forbidding slaughter. I would consider this slaughter as well.

Before I get into more specific arguments again, I wonder if anyone can tell me exactly what they consider slaughter. There is a very big difference between "I want to forbid any killing of horses if their meat will be used" and "I want to forbid the killing of horses if it happens at a speed of more than 10 horses an hour, at more than 500 miles away from their birthplace, under feedlot conditions, or if the meat goes to someone I don't like" for instance.

The last part is silly, I admit. But it seems I am attacking and defending something that has entirely different implications to you. If there is one way of making a reasonable discussion between between willing parties into a pit of endless frustration, that's it. And I do think this is an important issue, so that would be a waste.

[county]

JumpingPaints exactly how many stolen horses are sold for slaughter? At .20 a lb theres not a whole lot of money in selling a horse for slaughter. Even if you haul it directly to the plant and got .50 you have the expense of getting it there. The last three years there was 2.5 million dollars worth of cattle stolen and sold just in the 5 state area here. Think we should ban slaughtering cattle because of that?

[JumpingPaints]

Vos - I think you'll find that unlike the OP, for most people it's not a matter of meat going to someone they don't like. From what I can tell, for most it's an objection to the inhumanity of the existing commercial horse slaughter industry in the U.S. and/or the concept of killing horses for human consumption. And that's what the bill is written to ban (in the US). People can still send their horses to be humanely killed for a hunt's hounds or the zoo. The concern is what happens to horses while they're alive, not so much once they're dead.

county - From: http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=608 "Stolen Horse International (netposse.org) show that approximately 60% of stolen horses are killed at slaughter plants." www.netposse.org is down right now or I would give you the total number of stolen horses. Since you're the one so concerned about cattle legislation on a horse forum, I'll leave that issue to you to figure out.

[MoonBallad]

Its very easy to see the horses I breed through my profile, which ones don't you feel are quality? And can you show me where I ever in any way said people will starve if we don't sell horse meat over seas. I think your making things up again to suit your agenda.

county, I used a direct quote from your earlier post - its right at the beginning of mine. Did you miss it?

By the way JumpingPaints is right about the number of stolen horses that end up at slaughter. It may seem like a small profit but it still happens - ALOT. I happen to know a family that had it happen to them. Their daughter's horse was stolen, it was eventually found - at a plant AFTER he was already dead. They are not the only family that's gone through this. I have spoken to too many of the people who've gone through that heartache after I got involved with NetPosse. The plants don't even check micro chips - they simply remove them so the meat isn't contaminated! So even micro chipped your horse isn't safe if its stolen and ends up at a plant. Just look through the threads right hear about all the missing/stolen horses - those are just a tiny tip of the iceburg. So many people live in very rural areas - how easy is it for someone to drive up to a pasture in the middle of the night and walk the horses right onto a trailer? We aren't talking about heavily traveled roads especially in the middle of the night! They don't have to take them to the plant themselves - the family I mentioned found out their daughter's horse went through an auction not very far from their farm. He was stolen, taken to the auction, sold to the meatman and on his way to the plant before they were able to track him - and ALOT of people were looking. So yes, stolen horses are definatley at great risk of ending up at a plant.

[county]

No I didn't miss it at all I think you need to go back and read.

I have no doubt some stolen horses get slaughtered my question was how many? And since way more cattle are stolen and slaughtered should we ban cattle slaughter also. Would seem to me if stolen horses are a reason to ban their slaughter you'd want any other species banned for the same reason.

[county]

I'm concerned about cattle legeslation? I think you may have a reading comprehension problem JP or maybe your just going for the snide remarks as usual not sure which but I can certainly play that game. So if 60% of stolen horses are slaughtered and the figure I see netposse use alot is 55,000 horses are stolen a year about 30,000 are sold to slaughter. Got any proof other then netposses opinion?

[MSP]

Phew! some amount of reading that was!
I found a MAJOR point in mr. Sweeney's letter that may mean we are partly talking about the same thing. Apparently, shooting your own horse and using it any way you like, including eating it, is allowed in the US, and not considered to be slaughter even by the anti-slaughter movement. To me, this makes it entirely unclear what is meant by forbidding slaughter. I would consider this slaughter as well.

Before I get into more specific arguments again, I wonder if anyone can tell me exactly what they consider slaughter. There is a very big difference between "I want to forbid any killing of horses if their meat will be used" and "I want to forbid the killing of horses if it happens at a speed of more than 10 horses an hour, at more than 500 miles away from their birthplace, under feedlot conditions, or if the meat goes to someone I don't like" for instance.

The last part is silly, I admit. But it seems I am attacking and defending something that has entirely different implications to you. If there is one way of making a reasonable discussion between between willing parties into a pit of endless frustration, that's it. And I do think this is an important issue, so that would be a waste.


Here is a copy of the Bill. Maybe it will help you sort through this. IMO this Bill is about as non-invasive as you can get and accomplish the goal of stopping the slaughter of our horses. Transportation laws have not worked because the USDA doesn't enforce them. I fear if we can't pass this then the next step would need to be much more far reaching and invasive.

[Daydream Believer]

So if 60% of stolen horses are slaughtered and the figure I see netposse use alot is 55,000 horses are stolen a year about 30,000 are sold to slaughter. Got any proof other then netposses opinion?

I can't answer your question about stats but I go back to something you said on another thread about how no one at the slaughterhouse ever looks at papers that accompany the horses...if any...that might be proof of ownership. So most of those 90,000 horses probably arrive at the slaughterhouse and a good number may well have been stolen...no one knows for sure especially if no one is checking before killing the horse and destroying the evidence. Without registration papers, bill of sale, coggins being examined by someone in the process, it is shockingly easy to sell a stolen horse at auction or to a slaughterhouse. No questions asked is normal.

I hauled a friends horse to Unadilla in NY...a known killer auction...and when we walked up to the door with the horse, he did not even ask if it was our horse. He just took it in the back and tied it to a cow stanchion. Unbelievable. A few years later I read of a story where a kid's horse was taken there by an uncle and sold to a killer dealer. The horse was not found until it was on a meat hook either.

In my opinion a great deal of the problem could be solved just by regulating these low end auctions. Make it illegal to show up with a horse without a coggins, have someone verify the horse matches the coggins, checking of microchips, registration papers brought and signed over if any, pre registration of horses to the sale are some things that would go a very long way to preventing the sale of stolen horses at auctions.

[county]

Your right we don't know it could be 1% it could be 100%. Its exactly the same with cattle when there unloaded onto the kill floor we have no idea if there stolen or not. Like I asked before if anyone thinks horse slaughter should be banned because some horses may be stolen do you think cattle slaughter should be the same? Many many more cattle are stolen and slaughtered then horses.

[Daydream Believer]

I don't think horse slaughter should banned specifically for that reason but I do agree it should be banned for the entire list of reasons that have been debated to death on these forums. Regardless of whether it's banned or not, I think there needs to be way more control over these low end auctions for several reasons like theft and disease control. Not making it mandatory to have a current coggins on every single horse to just walk in the door is absurd when I can't even haul my horse legally across state lines without one or go to a show.

I tend to believe the statistics on net posse are pretty much right on. If that many horses were stolen for riding horses or whatever...they'd turn up eventually and be found most likely. Unfortunately the one sure fire way to make a fast dollar on a stolen horse and destroy the evidence is to sell it at a low end auction where it's most likely headed for meat. With the system as unaccountable as it is now, there is almost no chance of getting caught...horses are often sold for meat and killed in a matter of days.