Pine Island went down

[YoungFilly]

Pine Island? Does anyone know anything? I just saw her go down.
Jingles to the poor girl, and Fleet Indian. :( And the Jockey's

[Anne FS]

Dr. Bramlage said "dislocated ankle" with the skin broken, and that it was a significant injury.

[2Dogs]

I had just gotten up my nerve to watch the bc -
I just hate the breakdowns, like everyone else, I know, but damn -
have to go for a walk now.

[YoungFilly]

I'm shaking. God, aweful. Jingles poor girl! :(

[skatepixie]

Oh jesus!

[Norcrest]

Did I mishear? I thought he said the skin wasnt broken...still a very very scarey injury

[Norcrest]

They are saying Fleet Indian pulled a suspensory....painful injury but should be OK. But they put down Pine Island...RIP

[Anne FS]

Pine Island euthanized. I'm so very sorry...

[YoungFilly]

They just put her down. Enough of racing for me today. Wow.

[EMWalker]

The euthenized Pine Island. How awful. I am crying. The other mare suffered a suspensury.

[Rainbow Farm Unltd.]

Euthanized - unreparable, multiple fracture injury, and put to sleep before the adrenalin wore off, so she was never in severe pain...from ESPN. Jockey will ride in his next race.

[Tikigator]

Euthanized - put to sleep before the adrenalin wore off, so she was never in severe pain...from ESPN.

That's the only thing that rests people's minds is knowing she wasn't in severe pain. Those racehorses are so pumped up that most of the time, when they sustain an injury, they have no idea whats going on. Like they say, the jockey's usually know there's a problem way before the horse does.

What ashame for Pine Island and for the jockey. How bizarre is that--Bernardini's jockey goes down....Michael Matz and Edgar Prado's horse wins. Its like the Preakness all over again. I am glad the jockey is ok and will be able to ride later....its amazing he walked away.

RIP Pine Island :(

Did anyone hear the interview with Fleet Indian's owner--didn't they say she was going to be sold at Keenland next weekend?? He said one horse is sold last year went for 9 million, they were hoping to get somewhere around that for her this year. For you trainers out there--do you think she'll still sell? :confused:

[amyno]

Did anyone hear the interview with Fleet Indian's owner--didn't they say she was going to be sold at Keenland next weekend?? He said one horse is sold last year went for 9 million, they were hoping to get somewhere around that for her this year. For you trainers out there--do you think she'll still sell? :confused:


I'm not a trainer, but I shouldn't think a suspensory injury would affect her as a broodmare prospect.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

T.

[enjoytheride]

nope, not a suspensory but a fracture. Saying that fleet indian got pulled up fast enough that it was just an easy fracture where pine island ran on her fracture and dislocated her ankle.

[Tikigator]

yes I heard it was a fracture also, but a more common one that can be fixed with screws....so I am assuming that she won't be able to race again?.....do you think the owner would keep her as a broodmare or sell her at Keenland as a broodmare?

wow, is amazing to me #1 how much they pay for horses (I believe the owner said he paid $290k for her a year ago)....and #2 how much they sell them for (Ashado that sold for $9 MILLION!)....and #3 what is lost when one gets injured or has be to euthanized...

Of course I also assume they all have some type of insurance on the horses...? wow, I love watching racing, its just ashame when one gets hurt :(

[harvestmoon]

I thought that was Fleet Indian's last race, anyway? Wasn't she going to the Keeneland sale this coming week? She's lovely, I hope she'll be okay. But poor Pine Island. RIP. :(

[sprite]

How sad. I saw the results on ESPN's website and went "Yeah, Round Pond!" and then hopped over to the Bloodhorse and saw the news about Pine Island :(. Such a nice mare.

They say that Fleet Indian should be able to have a broodmare career. Thats something, at least.

[Simkie]

The sale this week (the one Fleet Indian is supposed to be in) is a BREEDING STOCK sale. She is listed as a broodmare prospect. Here's her page: http://www.keeneland.com/sales/nov06/pdfs/85.pdf It doesn't appear that there was any intention to sell her to race. All parties involved had planned today to be her last race.

And, wow--NO FRACTURES! All soft tissue.

[enjoytheride]

yep, changed their minds after xrays. all soft tissue

[sprite]

:) for Fleet Indian

[Tikigator]

soft tissue--wow that is super news!!!!!!!

I didn't realize Keenland was breeding stock. see how much I know about racing?? :lol: I am trying to learn more though ;)

I'm glad she will be able to have a career as a broodmare. I bet she will have some gorgeous foals. :yes:

almost time for the classic! let's go bernardini!!!

[CuriosoJorge]

Tikigator, KeenEland has four sales a year: January horses of all ages (aka the "mixed" sale), April two year olds in training, September yearlings, and November breeding stock (and weanlings). There used to be a July select yearling sale but this has been discontinued/combined with September. There are two live race meets per year at Keeneland as well; April and October. It's a beautiful track and you shouldn't turn down the opportunity to visit if you ever have the opportunity.

Very sad for the Phipps family and Shug. :( I have a fondness for the Arches.

[Simkie]

Bloodstock is reporting that Fleet Indian will be scratched form the sale.

http://bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36230

[merrygoround]

How can it go from soft tissue to fracture requiring screws back to soft tissue?Better radiographs?

RIP Pine Island. Poor filly.:(

[SuperSTB]

Poor Pine Island :( My heart out to the racing stable because they adored her character- must be really hard to have to deal with.

Better news for Fleet Indian though- hope she has a successful career as a broodmare. She's a great mare.

[J. Turner]

Poor Pine Island. They said she was a barn personality. All my condolences to her and her connections.

So glad her jockey was able to roll free and was good enough to ride.
Also happy that Fleet Indian will live out her life happily as a broodmare.

Congrats to Michael Matz, Round Pond, and her crew. (I told my dad to bet on her!)

[VirginiaBred]

RIP Pine Island. Such tragic news.

[merrygoround]

How could they go from soft tissue, to fracture requiring screws afterradiographs, then back to soft tisssue. Better radiographs?

[enjoytheride]

There are pictures of Pine Island here but I caution you as they are very graphic even from a distance, as bad as Barbaro or worse.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061104/SPORTS0802/61104034/1002/SPORTS

[Jinx]

yeah not so graphic when you first look at them...ok leg looks a little bad...then when you look for a second time and realize that A. a horse dosent have a joint there, B. if there was a joint there it dosent bend that way....and then C. WOW.....sorry that was WOW...ive never seen an injury like that before....

poor poor baby...i hope your last moments were filled with adrelinine so you felt no pain....RIP PINE ISLAND.....

[JER]

I liked Pine Island, although her suspect conformation was worrisome given her size.

The really bad of an open/compound/avulsion fracture is not what you see on the track -- it's when you repair it surgically and then find out 6-8 weeks later that the bone is basically sponge due to the type of infection that sets in when bone is exposed to air. This is especially heartbreaking when the horse has been a model patient. I've seen it first-hand and would never try to fix this sort of injury on one of my own.

A very sad race today but there's some consolation in seeing Michael Matz in the winner's circle with a horse whose ability was being called into question by a lot of experts (at least on the radio today -- no one had a positive word to say about her before the race).

[TheCoppertop]

When Pine Island was on her way to the gate I was struck by her beauty, the announcer called her long legs giraffe-like, she looked so elegant, floating to the gate.

I didn't know anything about her before today but she really stood out to me as a pretty horse. Damn, what a tragic waste. RIP Pine Island and jingles to Fleet Indian.

[asb_own_me]

What a gorgeous mare.....now I am glad we got home too late this afternoon to see anything but the Classic.

[YoungFilly]

I can't get my mind off of it. I saw her eyes as she was running, and the poor sweet thing did not see it coming. She was very intent on running.

Of course, I went and looked for some info on her, and here is a poignant interview before the race. She may have been a giraffe, but it sounds like Mr. (Ogden Mills) Phipps had a special interest in her.

http://bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36195

Poor, poor baby. I never heard of her before this, but now I think she deserves a place in history. Maybe someone can put something up on youtube like they have for Barbaro and Lost in the Fog.

[luvmytbs]

Pine Island went down right infront of me, I was on the backside. It was awful. She got up and stopped right there, waiting for a human to come to her. She was not in pain. She stood there while they held her leg up, she was being petted by everyone around. They got her on the ambulance o.k., people guiding her and everybody giving her big pets once she was on the ambulance.
What a beautiful girl.
Everybody around me was in shock and some cried. Some people left, they had it with racing.

I have a picture of her going over to the paddock. Let's remember her that way. I hate the way they put pictures of her accident in the Media.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/luvmytbs/BreedersCup2006030.jpg


Godspeed Pine Island

[CeeDreams]

Go to www.Horsephotos.com. Type in Pine Island in the easy search field. There are a few current pictures of her. She's just beautiful.

[CuriosoJorge]

Mr. Phipps is one of the last of the "old guard" owners, and I mean that in the most complimentary fashion. I daresay he cares that much about all of his horses.

[Kenike]

I actually saw the teaser on MSN when I started up the internet and just stopped mid-sentence (much to my husband's delight) with a gasp. I nearly started crying reading the article!!
I am SOOOOOOOO glad I wasn't home to watch the races today. If we hadn't gone car shopping, I would've seen it. After the breakdowns we've all seen this year, I don't think I could've handled this one.
Thank God her jock is okay!!! Good grief!

[Simkie]

Oh luvmytbs, I can't even imagine. It was so horrible on TV. I would have completely lost it had I seen in in real life :( :cry:

Does anyone know if Pine Island be buried in the in field? It sounds like that kind of respect would suit this classy filly :sadsmile:

[gubbyz]

Wow, big black filly with a star.... that paddock picture reminds me of another big black filly with a star.... same tragic ending. Godspeed Pine Island.

[dianad]

I couldn't believe the photo I just saw of her on Kentucky.com, upside down, and her leg looked very graphic to me. I just can't watch anymore.:(

[Prieta]

From what I could read about Pine Island, I thought back to the day when I watched Ruffian racing her last one and cried. Ruffian and Pine Island look similar and have somewhat similar personality (?). Like what one of the posters said about taking a third look at the picture, my heart went out to her and her human family. It is like re-living Ruffian all over again. :cry:

[Iride]

I was there and I saw the whole thing. I was in a near box and before the race I watched Pine Island when she was being walked down on the dirt to the gate area. She was wearing a sheer black cooler and I noticed her right away even though I didn't know who she was at first. I decided she was my favorite because she walked down so sweet and self assured amidst the hubbub, and gorgeous as gorgeous could ever be.

When I saw what happened my heart stopped. But we had hope. Then when we heard the reporter say she had to be humanely put down, that was it. I was crying for the rest of the day - I couldn't stop. It was enough to turn me off of racing for good. She had just been there right in front of me, pure and sweet as day. Next second she was dead. I can't stand it.

[Mardi]

.
What a beautiful girl.
Everybody around me was in shock and some cried. Some people left, they had it with racing.



It seems the legions are growing. Friends who used to go to the track often and really enjoy it, tell me they no longer go or even wish to watch on TV.

Just an observation of the sport...please don't flame me.

[Kinsella]

RIP Pine Island.

I too think it is tragic and upsetting and just God-awful when one breaks down, but it has not and will not stop me from watching racing. I know the inherent dangers of the sport, but I my thought on this issue is that these horses love to run. They don't know the dangers, and I don't think they would care if they did. Any one of us could die every time we get on a horse, but it doesn't stop us and we know the risks... And to those that say racing is cruel, the horses are forced to run - I don't think they have ever watched horses playing in a field - and they have certainly never watched TB youngsters playing!

[fish]

RIP Pine Island.

I too think it is tragic and upsetting and just God-awful when one breaks down, but it has not and will not stop me from watching racing. I know the inherent dangers of the sport, but I my thought on this issue is that these horses love to run. They don't know the dangers, and I don't think they would care if they did. Any one of us could die every time we get on a horse, but it doesn't stop us and we know the risks... And to those that say racing is cruel, the horses are forced to run - I don't think they have ever watched horses playing in a field - and they have certainly never watched TB youngsters playing!

It's a difficult subject, with lots of ins, outs, and complications. The bottom line seems to be that some of us continue to enjoy racing despite the break-downs while others don't. For me, the BC day when Go For Wand and 3 others went down was *almost* the last straw: until Barbaro's Preakness, which I watched because I was so happy about Michael Matz having a chance at the Triple Crown , the only race I'd had the nerve to watch live was Quiet American's Belmont. With these 2 exceptions, I'd restricted myself to watching tapes friends made for me of good races without breakdowns. Barbaro's Preakness was a painful enough shock that I sincerely doubt that any amount of interest could get me to watch live again, and the news from this year's BC is certainly enough to make me glad of my decision. I just don't have the stomach for it. What I read here provokes tears enough.

There must be better, safer ways to let horses run.

I think broadcasting an entire day of racing may be a real mistake for the industry. It makes all too obvious how high the risks are, and the spectacle far too painful for many passionate lovers of horses.

Several years ago I was shopping for show horse prospects at Penn National and the trainer of one of them remarked "I sometimes think you've got to hate horses to stay in this business."

I know this is not true: that many people who truly love horses do stay in racing, but it is sometimes a mystery to me how they do it.

[Jessi P]

These horses are doing what they have been born and bred to do, and what they love to do. The fastest ones are the ones who run hard enough to hurt themselves - and on BC day we are watching the best of the best.

Accidents of any sort are tragic, and horses have fatal accidents in every equine discipline (except maybe dressage?? :D ). This doesn't make the death of Pine Island any less awful, but it does draw attention to the fact that we are breeding more and more unsound horses.

I had a horse run last night named Dance Commander, owned by the nicest people in the world. Nice filly, talented, sound, but won't extend herself in a race. She just doesn't want to do it any longer and won't try. Needless to say, I had the jock stress to her owner that she isn't trying at all and it is time to say "enough" with her. So, this filly isn't going to get hurt in a race because she won't lay her heart on the line. It is the horses who reach down within themselves and give every last ounce of their soul - to win, to pass the other horse, to get their nose in front - those are the horses who often outperform their bodies' capabilities and suffer catastrophic breakdowns.

This is one of the reasons we MUST, as breeders, consider soundness when making our breeding decisions. This is often "against the trend," not commercial or unfashionable, but we as breeders need to buck up and emphasize soundness and durability in the stock that we are breeding today - the breeding stock of tomorrow.

[SuperSTB]

I think broadcasting an entire day of racing may be a real mistake for the industry. It makes all too obvious how high the risks are, and the spectacle far too painful for many passionate lovers of horses.

I think you hit something here.... mainstream population got to watch 4 *big* days of racing... Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and BC. 2 of those big events had very significant and horrific breakdowns and you can bet that MANY people are probably turned off.

It's extremely sad because here is a sport that I believe could be *popular* again. I really feel for those in the industry- for TB, STB, and QH racing- how many nails will the coffin take and can they really truly turn it around???

I love racing but the breakdowns kill me everytime. Going to the auction and seeing a thunder gulch babe 3yo walking on 3... no more like 2 legs and not saleing for even $50 and you know it took tens of thousands to get that foal on the ground.

Horses can breakdown just being turned out but still... it's not in the limelight.

I will continue to enjoy racing but my heart goes out to not only the people who've lost a great racehorse and barn pet but to the whole industry... hope for the best.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[09060]

[Slewdledo]

So, no mention in here of the legions of horses (124, total) who came home safely at CD yesterday?

Yes, what happened to Pine Island was terrible. It would be terrible no matter if the horse was a racing TB, an old Arab running in a field, a pony foal whose mother stepped on it. It happens.

Like Jessi said, when you have the best facing each other, they're going to lay everything on the line. Look at what horses like Barbaro, Ruffian, Pine Island, Go for Wand, Spanish Fern did - should they not have ever been raced for fear of the risk to them? What would we have missed out on then?

I'm just sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude and ignorance of non-racing horsepeople.

[vineyridge]

Here's what I don't understand. In all human sports, there are catastrophic breakdowns, permanent cripples, even deaths from (football) bad tackles. We had a young football player at Ole Miss who broke his neck on a tackle and was a quadriplegic and died four years later from complications.

Humans don't say, "Let's ban sports" or "I won't watch sports" about human sports. Why do they say that about horse sports--thinking eventing and endurance here, as well as racing? Humans aren't taken out and shot when they break down, but human medicine is far more advanced that veterinary medicine.

[fish]

These horses are doing what they have been born and bred to do, and what they love to do. The fastest ones are the ones who run hard enough to hurt themselves - and on BC day we are watching the best of the best.

Accidents of any sort are tragic, and horses have fatal accidents in every equine discipline (except maybe dressage?? :D ). This doesn't make the death of Pine Island any less awful, but it does draw attention to the fact that we are breeding more and more unsound horses.



I think you have to look at the numbers, though-- how many show horses-- or horses in any other careers-- are considered "old" at 4, and absolute phenoms if they're still sound at 10? And what other equine activity produces "fatal accidents" at such a rate that people are afraid to watch anymore?

And, no, I do not think it's because the horses are started young-- indeed, I think early training makes for stronger bones (and studies have been done to bear this out), and is therefore somewhat protective of the horses. The lists of things I WOULD like to see changed in the sport would make a book, but the bottom line is that until the breakdown rate changes drastically, I cannot bear to watch any more.

I have not noticed, BTW, that cheap claimers break down at a slower rate than the top horses-- after all, many of them have been dropped down without losing the "heart" that kills or cripples them.

So many considerations when it comes to breeding: a couple that come to mind here:

The "good ones" tend not to stay sound because the other "don't run fast enough to hurt themselves." vs...

horses like $6+million dollar earner and GSW Little Bold John, who was able to keep running until he was 10 because (or so I heard his trainer say) he was smart enough not to run too fast if he didn't like the footing.

P.S. I'm not at all sure, either, that racehorses are any less sound than they used to be. I think it may be more likely (or at least a large part of the story) that television has made us more sensitive to the brutal realities of the sport just as it has to those of war.

There is, IMO, the serious consideration, too, that the various veterinary measures now available do allow unsound horses of many descriptions to keep racing longer. I, for one, find it difficult to justify the role of racing as a tool of selective breeding (at least for soundness) when bleeders, horses with fractures, bows, etc., are allowed to keep running afterwards-- and then go to the breeding shed to produce more horses with hearts too big for their legs and lungs to carry (not to mention not "smart" enough to slow down when necessary to save themselves.).

[CuriosoJorge]

Vineyridge, I suspect people get more emotional about animal athletes than human ones because of the element of choice. The general public understands that a football player knows the risks when he takes the field.

The general public does not understand so well that a Thoroughbred is bred to run, and it is even more instinctive in my opinion than the football player's desire to play.

[fish]

So, no mention in here of the legions of horses (124, total) who came home safely at CD yesterday?

I'm just sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude and ignorance of non-racing horsepeople.

And I'm sick and tired of people like you assuming that those who don't share your opinions/preferences are "ignorant, non-racing horsepeople." FYI, I have spent my time in the industry: as a groom, exercise rider, manager of a lay-up facility, and as a racehorse owner. I am not alone either. There are many who've been deeply involved in the sport, gotten out because we could no longer bear the tragedy, and continue our love affair with TB's in different venues.

Yes, I would have gladly "missed" Go For Wand's entire career if it could have spared me the sight of her going down. I also do not regret having missed Barbaro's Derby-- and am very sorry I turned on the TV to watch his Preakness.

I have not attacked anyone for continuing their involvement with racing. I would appreciate not being attacked for having made a different decision.

[Xctrygirl]

It's been a bad weekend all around horse sports this weekend.

Besides the BC, in Virginia a known and well loved former short listed eventer had to be put down because of injuries suffered while galloping between fences on xc. No jump, just galloping.

In California a young rider competing at a CCI** (intermediate three day) was killed because a fall of her and her horse. (There were extenuating circumstances see thread in Eventing for more)

It's not just racing. And I'm sorry but having been a horse person all my life and living in the real world all I can say is that **** happens. It's not apparent to 90% of the racing viewers on Tv how much work we in the racing industry put into taking care of our horses. More often than not the biggest, loudest outcry comes from the laypersons. Those who jump to conclusions and forget to actually research and investigate the reality.

The best evidence of this is the Tim Wooley Forum that piggybacks the Barbaro updates websites. I am a member there and I am in shock what these people come up with. And whats sad is that their conclusions, drawn from media sources (Tv, radio, internet) are all that power their thoughts. Some, a rare few, are dedicated enough to ask experienced people first before jumping off the deep end, but not many.

Whats important to consider here is this, what message is being sent out to the masses when they glimpse the rare breakdown in a program broadcast to millions? Do they see beyond the tragedy and stay tuned long enough to hear Dr. Bramlege's report? Or do they just see the fall, curse horse racing and turn away comfortable in their own take on the events that happened and what led up to them?

In concert with this thought, maybe what needs to be reduced is the slow motion and instant replays. Ok I know what the intentions are by showing what happened, but in both the Preakness and yesterday, the end result was increasing the trauma to the audience by 200-500%. Emotions took precidence and logic and reality took a back seat.

I personally saw Fleet Indian being pulled up and knew what that meant, but like many others I hadn't seen nor knew about Pine Island until after the finish of the race, and then the images I was greeted with were of her standing up by the ambulance and then *BOOM* slow mo of her crashing down on an obvious break. Oh thats great.

Ok I am done for now. I have to change to go to the Pennslyvania Hunt Cup. And I am seriously hoping the tragedies this weekend do not continue there.

~Emily

[Jessi P]

Drumbiggle, I am thinking of the many, many stallions standing at stud who had an abbreviated campaign due to soundness problems. Or the ones who never started due to soundness but are being stood at stud due to their pedigree. Seems that I have seen a big increase in this in the past 15 years or so.

But you are right - many, many top sires and grandsires of today were not sound individuals themselves - and we can see the results we are getting today with their descendants. I think that with all of the public attention on the soundness card it behooves the TB industry as a whole to get behind and support an emphasis on breeding sound horses. We now have the technology now to help us (diagnostically determining causes and contributors and documenting unsoundnesses by sire line) that was simply not available to horsemen in decades past.

It's NOT going to be a popular idea by a long shot.. and the easiest way to begin implementing it is to start somewhat small now, promoting and stressing the SOUND stallions. This approach, however WILL be out of the normal "comfort zone" of breeders and will not flatter many stallions. Regardless, I think it needs to be a very important component of any breeder's stallion criteria.

[luvmytbs]

I truly believe, the media should stop using those horrible pictures over and over again. They don't do it with people's accident's do they? After Barbaro's breakdown, they aired the pictures day, after day, after day.
I just wanted to pick up the phone and scream at them to stop!

I was there, seeing Pine Island go down, I saw her leg when she got up. And even though I turned away, like many others did, those pictures will be imbedded in my mind forever.

My comfort is that she seemed to be in shock and therefore didn't feel any pain, my comfort is, that many people rushed out and loved on her and braced her leg and did everything humanly possible to get her on that ambulance with the best of care. The people petting on her in the ambulance when she was taken off the track. She didn't look scared, she didn't look freaked out. She was surrounded by wonderful people with the best intentions to be there for her.

I will continue to be a racing fan, even though horses break down all the time, even in training. I just wish the media would stop making everybody relive those awful moments over and over again.

[findeight]

My 2 cents here.

I did get to watch the whole telecast with the exception of the males on turf.

What really struck me was the reaction of the commentators. They were actually speechless...apparently they all had visited Pine Island back in the barns in the days leading to the race and were devastated. One of them even said
"They always say it's part of racing-well no it's not"

And good for the attention to vet interviews they promptly went to, even if there was some confusion about the condition of the other mare. They treated the whole thing as they would any other athlete who goes down in competition. They even ran a little obituary for her with some footage of her racing and around the barn after the Classic. Brought a tear to my eye.

They didn't gloss over the fact Shug and the Phipps operation were too upset to talk and declined any interviews either and they did turn the discussion to Polyturf and the need to enhance safety for everybody.

Smart and sharp commentary in a situation they simply used to gloss over and/or outright ignore. Good job all the way around and good for racing.

Perhaps we will one day be able to say that an occaisional breakdown is no more likely in racing then any other performance arena.

You know, I sort of stopped watching racing after that God awful BC at Belmont and subsequent loss of Prairie Bayou. Just lost the stomach for it. Cigar brought me back though, not too long after. I think you will be seeing some big changes here, thanks in part to coverage like ESPN provided yesterday.

[SuperSTB]

I'm just sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude and ignorance of non-racing horsepeople.

That's a less than brilliant comment in itself. I would say that the vast majority of racing fans wouldn't know the first thing about the care of a race horse or even how the betting system works. But what difference would that make? They still pump money into the industry right? So you wish to shut them all out because they may not know as much about the sport as you do? Wow what a great impact that would have don't you think?

The sport just isn't *out there* for all the world to see anymore. It's not regularly televised with all the other sports. Soooo what the average public gets to view and to have very major *negative* events happen within such a limited showing IS very detrimental to the sport. Doesn't matter how much you know about horses...

I think the coverage by ESPN was actually very good too. They treated the situation with respect and admiration to the horse for the athlete she was.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Drumbiggle, I am thinking of the many, many stallions standing at stud who had an abbreviated campaign due to soundness problems. Or the ones who never started due to soundness but are being stood at stud due to their pedigree. Seems that I have seen a big increase in this in the past 15 years or so.

But you are right - many, many top sires and grandsires of today were not sound individuals themselves - and we can see the results we are getting today with their descendants. I think that with all of the public attention on the soundness card it behooves the TB industry as a whole to get behind and support an emphasis on breeding sound horses. We now have the technology now to help us (diagnostically determining causes and contributors and documenting unsoundnesses by sire line) that was simply not available to horsemen in decades past.

It's NOT going to be a popular idea by a long shot.. and the easiest way to begin implementing it is to start somewhat small now, promoting and stressing the SOUND stallions. This approach, however WILL be out of the normal "comfort zone" of breeders and will not flatter many stallions. Regardless, I think it needs to be a very important component of any breeder's stallion criteria.

But Jess, it's not just sires and grandsires of today. Whirlaway is often cited as one of the great Ironhorses of yesteryear. He made 60 starts, won 32 times, finished in the money and amazing 56 times. He won the Triple Crown, won the Travers (which is in effect the Quadruple Crown, the only horse ever to do so) and just about every other great race of the day.

His grandsire was the phenom, Blandford, an increbible sire. Balndford had horrible conformation and was almost not raced. He bowed in both legs in his 2nd race. He was sent to stud, because he was well bred and sired, lo and behold, 4 Derby winners. Probably the most famous was Blenheim. A couple of weeks after his Derby win at Epsom, Blenheim broke down in training. So he didn't even make it half way through his 3yo year. He was then packed off to stud. So that's 2 generations of "unsound" sires.

At stud in France Blenheim sired a Derby winner himself, Mahmoud and the great stayer, Donatello, plus he gave the world the blue hen mare, Mumtaz Begum (dam of Nasrullah).
He was then purchased by Bull Hancock and brought to Kentucky, where he sired none other than.... the great Whirlaway. He also sired the likes of Rosebeam and Saratoga and several others who made over 100 starts each, including the great Steeplechaser, Adaptable, who ran over 100 times also. Add to that Jet Pilot, a tough campaigner who won the Kentucky Derby (and an ancestor of Jet Run... sorry I had to get an obligatory Michael Matz reference in to appease the fans).
This all from a sire and grandsire who couldn't stay sound after a couple of runs on nice soft English grass.

Sorry for boring everyone to tears with that, but I think we need to be careful about sweeping statements about not breeding "unsound" horses.

[findeight]

....the media should stop using those horrible pictures over and over again. They don't do it with people's accident's do they?... I just wish the media would stop making everybody relive those awful moments over and over again.


Yeah, well...the media do TOO keep showing human death and destruction over and over and over and over....how many times have you seen local footage af a fatal accident 6 times, you know, in the news trailers as a hook then during the 3 evening news segments and then again at 11 and again at the funerals and again at the indictment and again at the trial...ad nauseum. If it bleeds, it leads.

Anybody want to watch Mike Thiesman's leg snap yet AGAIN. It's no less gruesome:no: .

Anyway, the only way to insure 100% that no breakdowns will occur on any telecast is simply not to televise it at all...and that includes things like Rolex****where they have caught fatalities on tape and the Olympics...Royal Kaliber's misstep and painful reaction made me just as sick as any track wreck.

Accidents are part of any sport and should not be glossed over or omitted from any report...but the media do flog them to death.

[riveau]

I'm someone who can no longer stomach watching a breakdown. My brain is haunted with too many images of legs crumbling underneath a speeding thoroughbred. Ruffian, Go for Wand, etc.- the list goes on. Barbaro was the last straw- I now tivo a race, and delete it before watching if anything unfortunate occurred.

I know that a horse can breakdown in any sport, but they experience fatal breakdowns far more frequently in racing. And yes, I know that a horse can break a leg just being turned out, but that really is a FREAK accident.

Maybe some day, if the TB racing industry can effectively reduce the rate of catastrophic breakdowns, I'll have the courage to watch once more.

[vineyridge]

And then there was Ascetic, who should never have been bred. Was and was fabulously successful as a 'chaser sire. So you just never know with well bred TBs.

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Ascetic.html

[saratoga]

I'm just sick and tired of the holier-than-thou attitude and ignorance of non-racing horsepeople.

I don't think that is it at all.....some people can handle seeing horses die like that and some can't. I think it is a normal reaction to be upset by a breakdown. It truly is one of the most horrible things to happen to a horse- I saw the tape of Royal Kaliber getting hurt and while that was very sad, to me, did not even come close to a horse crashing to the ground, somersaulting with a busted leg swinging in the air.

No one likes it but it *is* a part of racing, always has been and I'm sure always will be. Some of us deny it happens often, or justify it by saying, "Horses can break a leg in turn-out," or "They died doing what they loved", or "Tbs. were bred to run, if not for racing, they would not even exist."

Regardless of all that is good in racing, and of course there are many very good people (I have always thought that Shug McGaughey and the Phippses are extreme class acts), I wonder how I can still watch.

[nightsong]

I have not noticed, BTW, that cheap claimers break down at a slower rate than the top horses-- after all, many of them have been dropped down without losing the "heart" that kills or cripples them.


Yup. the survivial instinct has been bred out of them.

[Glimmerglass]

When Pine Island was on her way to the gate I was struck by her beauty, the announcer called her long legs giraffe-like, she looked so elegant, floating to the gate.

I didn't know anything about her before today but she really stood out to me as a pretty horse.

Interesting as her looks were actually well criticised in the lead up to BC Saturday.

BloodHorse Nov 3, 2006 (http://bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36195)

Pine Island, bred and owned by the Phipps Stable, probably wouldn't win an equine beauty contest. She's tall and lanky with crooked legs that toe in. But if pretty is as pretty does, the daughter of Arch is Miss America on the racetrack. Even though she's only 3-years-old, Pine Island is among the favorites for the Emirates Airline Breeders' Cup Distaff (gr. I) at Churchill Downs Saturday after winning the Alabama (gr. I) and Gazelle (gr. I) Stakes earlier this year.

"She was big, and she was awkward," said trainer Shug McGaughey, describing Pine Island as a 2-year-old. "At one time, there was a little bit of talk about maybe putting her in a yearling sale. But I'll give Mr. (Ogden Mills) Phipps credit. He was the one who said, 'No, let's just keep her and break her, and we'll see if anything happens. If we have to put her in a broodmare sale somewhere along the line that's what we'll do.' "

Pine Island didn't race as juvenile.

"Somebody asked me where she was on my list at the first of this year; well, she wasn't on it," McGaughey said. "He (Phipps) wasn't calling me every day asking about the Arch filly. But the more we did with her, the more she acted like she would have a little quality to her."

[La Gringa]

I'm someone who can no longer stomach watching a breakdown. My brain is haunted with too many images of legs crumbling underneath a speeding thoroughbred. Ruffian, Go for Wand, etc.- the list goes on. Barbaro was the last straw- I now tivo a race, and delete it before watching if anything unfortunate occurred.


I was watching the race when Go for Wand broke down. I cried. She was winning the race, and broke down in the last steps of the race.

I also remember Timely Writer. That was a horrible day too.

Unfortunately, it's the risk of the sport, but it makes it no less difficult when this happens.

Poor filly. I am glad she didn't suffer. RIP Pine Island.

[YoungFilly]

Pine Island, bred and owned by the Phipps Stable, probably wouldn't win an equine beauty contest. She's tall and lanky with crooked legs that toe in. But if pretty is as pretty does, the daughter of Arch is Miss America on the racetrack. Even though she's only 3-years-old, Pine Island is among the favorites for the Emirates Airline Breeders' Cup Distaff (gr. I) at Churchill Downs Saturday after winning the Alabama (gr. I) and Gazelle (gr. I) Stakes earlier this year.

"She was big, and she was awkward," said trainer Shug McGaughey, describing Pine Island as a 2-year-old. "At one time, there was a little bit of talk about maybe putting her in a yearling sale. But I'll give Mr. (Ogden Mills) Phipps credit. He was the one who said, 'No, let's just keep her and break her, and we'll see if anything happens. If we have to put her in a broodmare sale somewhere along the line that's what we'll do.' "

Pine Island didn't race as juvenile.

"Somebody asked me where she was on my list at the first of this year; well, she wasn't on it," McGaughey said. "He (Phipps) wasn't calling me every day asking about the Arch filly. But the more we did with her, the more she acted like she would have a little quality to her."

Well, it does seem that in this case her conformation probably did contribute to her breaking down. I think measures to insure that the footing is optimum probably has a factor in it too (wasn't there a racetrack in the news because there was a higher than normal breakdown average?)

[solargal]

I'm someone who can no longer stomach watching a breakdown. My brain is haunted with too many images of legs crumbling underneath a speeding thoroughbred. Ruffian, Go for Wand, etc.- the list goes on. Barbaro was the last straw- I now tivo a race, and delete it before watching if anything unfortunate occurred.

I know that a horse can breakdown in any sport, but they experience fatal breakdowns far more frequently in racing. And yes, I know that a horse can break a leg just being turned out, but that really is a FREAK accident.

Maybe some day, if the TB racing industry can effectively reduce the rate of catastrophic breakdowns, I'll have the courage to watch once more.

That is incorrect. The rate of catastrophic is on par with eventing. (Which I have nothing against and love.) It is just that more horses race in one day in the country than compete all year in eventing. So be careful what you say. It was very unfortunate, but exaggerating the situation doesn't help.

[Painted Wings]

Here's a cool photo of her, all coverd in mud.

http://horseracing.about.com/od/latestnews/ss/aa081906a_3.htm

[luvmytbs]

One thing I have heard from trainers at Churchill, is that CD likes to keep the track "fast", so they can set records. The footing is not as forgiving as it could be.

[La Gringa]

Well, it does seem that in this case her conformation probably did contribute to her breaking down. I think measures to insure that the footing is optimum probably has a factor in it too (wasn't there a racetrack in the news because there was a higher than normal breakdown average?)

From the picture posted of her vy Painted Wings after her win in the mud, her pasterns seem long, don't they? That would right there weaken her legs, and make her more prone to breaking down.

[Oakstable]

How tall was she?

[JER]

Her pasterns were way too long. If they'd tried to race her as a 2 year-old, she wouldn't have made it to 3.

That said, she was my pick to win.

Her sire, Arch, is a handsome, athletic son of Kris S. There used to be some good videos of him on his website; however, they're not on the Claiborne site now. I had my eye on Arch as a future sport horse stallion -- a few years ago, his stud fee was very low (5K) and I was hoping it would continue to drop. But alas, he sired some winners and some youngsters who really impressed at the sales.

The Phipps Stable has a history of great mares.

[farmgirl88]

The biggest issue i have with horse racing is the exact type of incident we all witnessed yesterday. These horses are started...WAY too young...I mean, come on...2 years old and they are galloping daily on hard fitness plans that no horse at that age should be put through...their legs are horrible, the joints and bones are not fully developed yet...but yet people keep continueing it. Granted, Royal Kaliber injured his leg, but no wheres near as badly as the horse racing incidents we have witnessed over this year... He didn't die from the leg injury itself either so thats something completely different. In the hunter/jumper world..i have never met a trainer who starts their horse jumping at the age of 2...i wonder why. I just do not agree with the training systems the thoroughbred world has in place...it doesnt add up...and neither does the way they are breeding...because the one and only time i went to a track...i have never seen a group of more unsound animals in my entire life...
I think the media is doing its job. Its waking people up to the gloomy side of this sport and possibly something that needs to be taken in to consideration to be fixed. horses don't just brake down like that in the hunter jumper, or eventing worlds. it happens periodically, yes...but nothing to that extent on a repeated basis. When i opene dup the hartford courant this am, there was the picture of Pine Island rolled on her back with her legs in the air and there is no doubt...her ankle was broken becaus eit was flopped over and the jockey was on the ground....its what people deserve to know. Yes they might overdo it....but why try and hide the gruesome side of this sport? In my eyes, something needs to be fixed...how about letting th e horses actually mature before pushing them to the point of injury...i totally agree with bernadini's retirement :)

[fish]

Well, it does seem that in this case her conformation probably did contribute to her breaking down. I think measures to insure that the footing is optimum probably has a factor in it too (wasn't there a racetrack in the news because there was a higher than normal breakdown average?)


Funny thing is that you also can't always tell much by a horse's conformation either. While it's definitely true that horses with correct legs tend to last a whole lot better than crooked ones, I've frequently been surprised by some of the legs that have stood up to the most severe tests. John Henry is, of course, the example we all know: returned to seller as a two year old because he was so calf-kneed "there's no way he could ever stand up to racing"-- so said the trainer for a woman inexperienced enough to think him worth $20K. Another that surprised me was a stallion I went to look at in Maryland several years ago precisely because he'd retired sound after several years of racing, including wins in a few stakes. The horse had some of the crookedest legs I've ever seen!

As for the idea that more horses are being bred now than used to be with nothing but fancy bloodlines going for them, I think it's clear that the reverse is actually the case-- and there have been plenty of people lamenting that fact for good reason, too. Due to the sizes of today's books: 200+ mares, compared to 40 only a couple decades ago, going to the top stallions-- it's very difficult for a new stallion to attract and keep a decent book of mares without pretty much everything going for him. Many writers have pointed out that in today's climate a stallion like Danzig-- well-bred, talented, but retired without a race record, would never have attracted the mares he did. Not only do I think that it would have been a pity to have lost Danzig and his progeny, but (more importantly), I think there's good reason to be concerned about what so many mares going to a few select stallions does to the size of the gene pool.

I would imagine, also, that if eventing has a breakdown rate anywhere near as high as racing, that would only be the case if the eventing statistics were restricted to the Advanced levels, by which point both horses and riders should have had several years of preparation during which they've built themselves up to the risks-- not to mention having enjoyed several years of exhilarating life while doing so. A lot of Advanced event horses are in their teens. The problem with racing (at least as I see it) is that the same risks exist at every level, in every race, regardless of the age or experience of the competitors, and with the result being that countless horses are rendered "old," or dead long before they've had much of a chance at life. I'd love it if the risks of racing could somehow be restricted to those few with real claims to greatness-- followed by lots of activity in the breeding shed-- but have a hard time envisioning how that could be arranged.

Fact is, though, that I haven't watched anywhere near as many events as I have races anyway. If I were to see as many horses break down eventing as I have on the track, I don't think I'd want to watch eventing any more either.

Please note, BTW, that I'm not arguing in favor of shutting down racing, eventing, or anything else. I loathe PITA and think them far more dangerous to horses (and other animals, too) than racing could ever be. I just wish the efforts being made to reduce the breakdowns were a lot more successful so racing (and eventing) could be watched without so much legitimate fear of seeing yet more tragedy.

[harvestmoon]

Didn't Seabiscuit have wonky legs?

[On the Farm]

The biggest issue i have with horse racing is the exact type of incident we all witnessed yesterday. These horses are started...WAY too young...I mean, come on...2 years old and they are galloping daily on hard fitness plans that no horse at that age should be put through...their legs are horrible, the joints and bones are not fully developed yet...but yet people keep continueing it. Granted, Royal Kaliber injured his leg, but no wheres near as badly as the horse racing incidents we have witnessed over this year... He didn't die from the leg injury itself either so thats something completely different. In the hunter/jumper world..i have never met a trainer who starts their horse jumping at the age of 2...i wonder why. I just do not agree with the training systems the thoroughbred world has in place...it doesnt add up...and neither does the way they are breeding...because the one and only time i went to a track...i have never seen a group of more unsound animals in my entire life...
I think the media is doing its job. Its waking people up to the gloomy side of this sport and possibly something that needs to be taken in to consideration to be fixed. horses don't just brake down like that in the hunter jumper, or eventing worlds. it happens periodically, yes...but nothing to that extent on a repeated basis. When i opene dup the hartford courant this am, there was the picture of Pine Island rolled on her back with her legs in the air and there is no doubt...her ankle was broken becaus eit was flopped over and the jockey was on the ground....its what people deserve to know. Yes they might overdo it....but why try and hide the gruesome side of this sport? In my eyes, something needs to be fixed...how about letting th e horses actually mature before pushing them to the point of injury...i totally agree with bernadini's retirement :)

Please reconcile your opinion on early training versus the scientific research which arrives at pretty much the opposite conclusion.

[Arcadien]

BenleaSealy, I used to feel like you, especially when I was younger (forgive me if I'm wrong, but your screen name is after a pony so I assume you're younger).

As I got older and investigated the facts, I was shocked to discover that show/sport/trail horses break down horrifically just as much as race horses. They just don't publicize it as much.

Another fact that surpised me, was when they did a full scale scientific test of the effects of starting horses in training at 2 yo, versus waiting longer, they found that the ones started at 2 stayed sound longer (!!!) than those that waited. Apparently, same as with humans, if you accustom bones & muscles to the work they will be expected to do in their youth, they are stronger than those that do no such activity, then start it in their later years.

You can believe me, I was shocked. I did much followup research of my own, to try to figure it out. In the end, I had to accept the researchers were right.

I use myself as an example. I started running track freshman year in high school. So at 14, I had regular training. I ran some races. Then I got to college and real life, and stopped running. A few years into adult hood, I took up jogging with a pal. She had never run before, or done any sports as a kid. Now, in her late twenties she took up running, in a sensible, gradual increase program. She was afflicted by horrible calf and shin pain. We kept having to take time off for her to recover. Finally she was able to run with me, but frequent issues lamed her and she had to give up running.

I, on the other hand, never experienced that pain and ended up running 2 marathons (in training for my 3rd!) I've asked around and found similar stories - those who didn't get an early athletic background of some kind, have greater trouble becoming athletes when they are older, than those who did.

Of course, working out as a youth can be overdone. Overwork is bad, no matter how old you are. Same is true for horses, so working young horses, with a conscientious trainer, is conducted carefully, gradually, taking care to note any trouble, backing off at the first sign, then resuming training when the trouble is gone. Same with young horses, same with young humans.

In the case of horses, I've found some people who believe the "no riding at alll until 4 or 5 or later" have various problems starting their horses, no matter the sport. After that published research I referred to, even educated sporthorse breeders/trainers I know are wise to the benefits of putting some work on a horse at 2-3 and taking advantage of it. Doesn't mean you start jumping a 2 yo. But sitting on them, showing them their future jobs, and giving their apparatus an idea of what it is going to be expected to hold up to, has been found to have a huge benefit.

Wise educated racehorse trainers know the same thing. Start them at 2, gently, gradually. Keep a close watch on them every day. Gradually escalate the work. Back off at any sign of trouble, resume only after they are completely healthy.

Ditto wise sport/show/trail horse trainers. Those that do it carefully and gradually and start them young (the best age to start varies by breed, and individual body type, as well as each horses mind), have the soundest horses in the long run. Science has proven this.

Those that still listen to some now outdated rule of waiting to start riding until a certain age, are at a comparative disadvantage.

(Sorry so long, but since I think Benlea is young, she might not have heard/benefited from the latest research/knowledge. Forgive me if it's a repeat.)

What happened to Pine Island was tragic, but no one's fault. These things happen to any elite athlete pushing to be the best of the best. And anyone who claims a fast, classy TB doesn't relish the chance to run and train and become the best they can be... hasn't really met a fast, classy Thoroughbred, in my mind - human, or horse.

Best wishes,
Arcadien

[Laurierace]

A race horse has to follow the same initial training regimen along with the same necessary bone remodeling no matter what age they begin their training. Other than waiting to do timed works for horses that have their knees still open, there is no benefit soundness wise if you wait to start a horse when it is older.

[fish]

A race horse has to follow the same initial training regimen along with the same necessary bone remodeling no matter what age they begin their training. Other than waiting to do timed works for horses that have their knees still open, there is no benefit soundness wise if you wait to start a horse when it is older.

Actually, the studies I've read on bone modeling all conclude that it's most beneficial to stress the bone BEFORE maturity, not after. I wish I remembered the definitions of terms (and am too tired to find the studies now), but apparently before maturity, bone is actually being "modeled" as opposed to "remodeled," to withstand the types of stresses to which it is exposed, with the former being distinctly superior to the latter. This explains the results of the study that compared horses started at 2 to those who were made to wait until they were 4, which found that horses started when broke down at a much faster rate. As Arcadien says, this makes perfect sense in the light of what we know of human athletes.

[Jinx]

a note on the media

personally i thought ESPN did a phenominal job with this race...i didnt see the catastropic part of the injury until i took it upon myself to view the still shots...

you didnt see the fall initially -- i know this for a fact because i was watching Pine Island through the backstretch, and I distinctly remember watching her being pushed out of frame, stumbled and looked like she lost her jock...the announcer didnt say anything during the race...i kept looking for a loose horse and didnt see one...I didnt know that she had broken down until after the race had ended.

Also they kept showing the other mare that broke down on the track...they only BREIFLY showed Pine Island...i mean it was a blink of an eye shot...once from above where they panned out very fast and once from the ground...when the ambulence got there...

and i think they replayed the accident MAYBE once...

they did show the jock a few times...but kept away from the horse -- to me for obvious reasons.

So i commend ESPN for their good coverage...they let people know what had happend in a mature, respectful manner...

as for other news outlets i can only speak for what i have seen...and other than the link posted earler in this thread it has been nothing...

so to me the media covered this in an appropriote manner....

[Slewdledo]

17hh. And note that contrary to those in this thread who choose not to read others' posts, Pine Island DID NOT start at 2.

[NancyM]

A brilliant response post from Arcadian. Yes, breakdowns are horrible to watch, but they happen when horses are asked for the ultimate exertion. With high speed, high concussion and in the heat of competition, a small mis-step or the slightest problem becomes a major problem very quickly. If horses are never asked the hard questions... How fast are you? How strong are you? How can we determine which breeding decisions to make in the future to keep the TB the finely tuned athlete that he is? To not race would result in TBs becoming just regular horses, with weaknesses and lack of athletic ability built in and unrecognised. Racing is a combination of ultimate highs, and maximum disasters, and one can change to the other in the blink of an eye. It is because TBs are tested so very hard that they are the greatest of all breeds of horses, in heart, in strength and in character. Breakdowns are unavoidable, but neccessary as part of the culling process that keeps the breed strong. Not all breakdowns are due to heritable factors, some are simply bad luck and nobody's fault at all. Such is the nature of horseracing. All one can hope for is qualified workers and veterinarians to acertain what must be done in each case, in the best interest of the horse involved. One would live in a fairytale land if only subjected to the highs and successes of racing.

[SuperSTB]

a note on the media

personally i thought ESPN did a phenominal job with this race...i didnt see the catastropic part of the injury until i took it upon myself to view the still shots...

you didnt see the fall initially -- i know this for a fact because i was watching Pine Island through the backstretch, and I distinctly remember watching her being pushed out of frame, stumbled and looked like she lost her jock...the announcer didnt say anything during the race...i kept looking for a loose horse and didnt see one...I didnt know that she had broken down until after the race had ended.

Also they kept showing the other mare that broke down on the track...they only BREIFLY showed Pine Island...i mean it was a blink of an eye shot...once from above where they panned out very fast and once from the ground...when the ambulence got there...

and i think they replayed the accident MAYBE once...

they did show the jock a few times...but kept away from the horse -- to me for obvious reasons.

So i commend ESPN for their good coverage...they let people know what had happend in a mature, respectful manner...

as for other news outlets i can only speak for what i have seen...and other than the link posted earler in this thread it has been nothing...

so to me the media covered this in an appropriote manner....

I so agree! I actually did not know much more than what was said by the track vet since they did not show her breakdown. I thought in the replay that it was Indian not Pine that hit the track. I had to go on the internet to see anything more than the quick replay.

[caffeinated]

Nancy, well said. Seeing Barbaro's break was pretty devastating for me, but I still love racing. My farrier says they "run or die"- and while it sounds bad, it's true- that's what they do, right down to the very last, and what makes them so special.

[fish]

Nancy, well said. Seeing Barbaro's break was pretty devastating for me, but I still love racing. My farrier says they "run or die"- and while it sounds bad, it's true- that's what they do, right down to the very last, and what makes them so special.

Excuse me, but I find that a horrific (and thankfully not true) thought.

[caffeinated]

I guess it's in perspective. When I first heard it phrased that way I thought it was pretty cold. But I do think it's true. It's what the thoroughbred does- he gives his all and his everything right down to the very last. Every ounce and fiber of their being is geared to run or die trying. That's why so many of these horses push themselves so hard, and try to give even when there's nothing more in the engine. I feel it defines the breed's character to have so much heart, and I think that's what makes them so wonderful at many different things. There are many thoroughbreds out there that would do incredible things when asked, because they will give so much of themselves- whether it's pushing to the wire on the track or eventing at Rolex, bravely tackling things that would give me nightmares for months. I don't find that to be a particularly "cold" or horrific thought, but it's all in how you look at it, I guess.

[Lora]

Go to www.Horsephotos.com. Type in Pine Island in the easy search field. There are a few current pictures of her. She's just beautiful.

She is very much on the forehand (leaning down on those front legs) in these photo's - all that weight on the front end.

[vineyridge]

Did I imagine hearing this? And please explain.

One of the commentators or interviewees said that Pine Island broke down "at the lead change" or when she was changing leads.

Since the race is run in only one direction, why would a horse ever need to change leads? Is it because some horses would prefer to run on the off side lead, but need to be on the near side lead for turns? Or maybe a direction change to go wide or somesuch?

If she was changing leads and came down funny at that speed and weight and age, an ankle snapped in two is more understandable.:sadsmile:

[caffeinated]

Racehorses change leads several times while they're racing- they generally switch to the right lead on the straightaways and to the left through the turn, iirc. (this is why I tend to laugh a bit when people say racehorses only know how to canter on the left lead)

The leading leg will get fatigued a bit when working, switching leads often gives them a fresh burst of speed as they make their way to the wire.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

.

[ForTheTBs]

This whole thing is weighing on me very heavily. I guess this is as good as any place to vent my frustrations - under an alter for reasons that will be obvious below.

I've been a long time member of the racing industry. I have 20 years on and off experience, all at mid and low level tracks. Pine Island's injury was unfortunately not one of a kind. Spending much time at the track at all will tell you that when a horse goes down like that, it's over for them. I was somewhat surprised that they actually even loaded her on the ambulance. I've been reading elsewhere that some casual fans think the decision made to euthanize might have been made too quickly. No way. This was no Barbaro incident. Had he gone down as she did, had his injury been to a front leg.... well, just no way. As they say on the backside, "She broke her leg off".

After being thoroughly disgusted at seeing another horse go down like she did, I then got news of a filly that I'd known since birth snapping her cannon bone in a similiar manner and euthanized on the track. All within 24 hours. This filly had been sore for months and due to come home for winter break. But her connections feared that she may not ever be sound enough get fit again. :mad: They knew she had problems, and a small stress fracture in her cannon bone diagnosed earlier this year. Earlier this year, a youngster snapped his leg in a similiar manner. I know for a fact he was training on bucked shins. What are bucked shins, my friends? Microfractures. Key word being fractures. Also this year I watched a horse who had earned nearly a million dollars break down after being entered for the lowest tag of his life, after a lackluster season. The horse had been sore after races for two years. Saw it with my own eyes. Ran a horse this year, walking up behind a horse with a huge ankle. He balked the entire way to the paddock. He broke down in exactly the same manner as Pine Island. I cried for that horse and thanked the gods for mine as I lead my charge down the track after the race, passing the injured horse being loaded to be taken to the pickup spot for the renderer. I could go on for days with these stories. What it boils down to is that I'm tired of it.

I'm not here to say everyone in racing, or that racing itself is inherently evil. I am part of the industry. My home, everything in it, all my possesions, my own retired horses upkeep, the food on my table is all compliments of racing, and more specificially, racehorses.

Pine Island's rider said she tumbled right at the time of a lead change. RARELY, these accidents are just that - accidents. She very well could be one of those. MOST OFTEN, the horse has a problem preceeding the accident. Those "Bad Steps" were taken on bad legs. And the connections know it. They are often good people, but good people in denial.

All of this talk of breeding the soundness out of them, etc., etc., etc., but we (we meaning those in the industry who have put in any kind of time) know, but rarely speak it outloud what the real problem is. It's people. The trainers. Not knowing when to quit. Taking a gamble by ignoring that little bit of heat or swelling. Taking a gamble by injecting instead of xraying. Stubborness, not wanting to give up on a horse when, in the name of all that is sane and holy, the horse is not going to hold up. How many of us in the industry could raise our hands and say we don't know trainers like that? How many of us could raise our hands and say we only know one or two? How many times have we heard "He's smart, he'll take care of himself"? Or "the good ones always get hurt", like its some sort of cosmic bad luck? When in reality its a horse that does put its life on the line every trip to that track... and that trainer knows the horse is not 100%? How many in the industry think that those from the outside would be in absolute shock if they know how many horses running today are not 100%? Why do we allow it? And we know of horses with injuries or soreness that just continue to run and run and win? How many have seen the morning pre-race vet check consisting of hollering in the barn door by the vet... "Everyone okay for today?", "Yup.", "Okay then.." and the vet is on his way to the next barn? Why do we stand for this?? We all know of the riders who will "ride anything" (sore or not). We all know what happens if you speak up too loudly.

One good thing (I hope) that will come of Pine Island's demise struck me as I was watching the coverage on Saturday - one of the commentators made mention that "some in the industry do not take heed of every little sign", (paraphrased) but that Pine Island's connections are not of that type. I almost fell off the couch in disbelief that someone actually said it outloud, on a nationally broadcast mainstream program. I can only pray it's a sign of things to come.

Good for her connections, but even more heartbreaking for them. My heart goes out to them, and especially to those in the barn with her every morning, and for whomever had to stand there after the race with an empty halter. :cry:

The sooner the racing industry stands up and shakes out ALL of the uglies, admits to all the problems and faces them head on, the better. I pray we are moving in that direction. There are entire generations of good horsemen out there who have somehow been raised to see things in the strangest way, with lots of denial. The owners of one of the horses I described above breaking down are good people. They take good care of their horses. They'll speak with venom about those who don't take care of their own, dogs, cats, horses, whatever. There is just some sort of bizarre disconnect with many (not all) folks in this industry that I just can't even begin to explain.

I applied for a job today, one that has nothing to do with racing. I used to think you had to stay, to leave was chickening out and that racing needed those who wanted change to stay involved. But I'm older now, and not feeling so strong. I think I've finally seen one to many go down. It breaks my heart. There is nothing like taking a strong, fit, healthy, sound thoroughbred to the paddock, and watching them kick into a sixth gear coming out of the turn and blowing the doors off the rest of the field. :sadsmile: My lord, they are magnificant creatures - and oh what heart they have.

[Kenike]

Sounds like ESPN deserves huge acknowledgements and thank you's!

I'm still so glad I wasn't home to see it....but it does make me feel a bit better that all those watching on television didn't have to witness what those who were at the track did.

[NeverTime]

Well said, FortheTBs.

[farmgirl88]

i dont know if anyone saw...theres a beautiful shot by barb livingston on her gallery of this filly...

[Glimmerglass]

Getting to the original topic and to provide closure. Rest in peace girl.

BloodHorse 12-06-06 (http://bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36261)
Pine Island Buried Monday at Claiborne Farm
by Deirdre B. Biles
11/6/2006

Pine Island, who was euthanized after breaking down in the Nov. 4 Emirates Airline Breeders' Cup Distaff (gr. I) at Churchill Downs, was buried at the Hancock family's Claiborne Farm near Paris, Ky., Monday at 1 p.m. (EST).

Her grave is located next to that of champion Banshee Breeze in the nursery's Marchmont cemetary, according to Claiborne manager Gus Koch.

Bred and raced by the Phipps Stable, Pine Island was foaled and raised at Claiborne. Other well-known Phipps family runners buried in the cemetery where Pine Island rests include Easy Goer and Relaxing.

"It was very private, just for the farm personnel," said Koch of the burial. "It was very respectful."

Pine Island's only season of competition was this year. The 3-year-old daughter of Arch won four of her seven races and earned $666,800. She captured two grade I events, the Alabama and Gazelle Stakes. She was the second betting choice in the Distaff, with odds slightly higher than those of Fleet Indian, who suffered a suspensory ligament injury and didn't finish the race.

"It was a sad, sad day," said Koch of this year's Breeders' Cup. "It was a sad day for the Phippses and for all of us at Claiborne, which was home to Pine Island. It also was a sad day when we had to bury her. We foaled her and weaned her and raised her as a yearling. She was a lovely individual to be around and very nice to get along with. It's just a tragic loss."

[fish]

Well said, FortheTBs.

Yes- Thank you from all of us who've seen it too often and had enough.

[fish]

I guess it's in perspective. When I first heard it phrased that way I thought it was pretty cold. But I do think it's true. It's what the thoroughbred does- he gives his all and his everything right down to the very last. Every ounce and fiber of their being is geared to run or die trying. That's why so many of these horses push themselves so hard, and try to give even when there's nothing more in the engine. I feel it defines the breed's character to have so much heart, and I think that's what makes them so wonderful at many different things. There are many thoroughbreds out there that would do incredible things when asked, because they will give so much of themselves- whether it's pushing to the wire on the track or eventing at Rolex, bravely tackling things that would give me nightmares for months. I don't find that to be a particularly "cold" or horrific thought, but it's all in how you look at it, I guess.

No, it's not true-- those horses don't have to "run or die." After watching the sweet babies I broke for the track break down and/or quickly "grow old," or die there, I took great pleasure in going to yearling sales and buying TB's precisely in order to give them lives in which they need not either "run or die"-- and I can assure you that not one of them seems to miss it! These horses show dressage and H/J; they Pony Club and teach lessons. As you say yourself they are "wonderful at many different things"-- many of which allow them to lead long, happy, productive lives, enjoying soundness of body and mind, instead of dying, growing old before maturity, or turning into speed freaks on the track.

I remember reading in the life of Ruffian that the riders who started her called her "sofa" and worried because she didn't like to run, to which her trainer replied, "how can she know, she hasn't done it yet?" I remember when I was breaking yearlings that similar things were said about some of them. A rider would complain about a horse being "lazy," and someone with more experience would say "don't worry, s/he'll start pulling like a freight train soon enough."

I'm not at all sure that anyone's doing TB's any favors by turning them into "speed freaks" and "adrenaline junkies." Mine certainly seem to be happy enough with the little bits of running they do in the fields and out fox hunting. They also live to be 30, and despite the fact that they show little inclination to run themselves to death, I've never suspected them of lacking "heart."

[abrant]

I took great pleasure in going to yearling sales and buying TB's precisely in order to give them lives in which they need not either "run or die"-- and I can assure you that not one of them seems to miss it! These horses show dressage and H/J; they Pony Club and teach lessons. As you say yourself they are "wonderful at many different things"-- many of which allow them to lead long, happy, productive lives, enjoying soundness of body and mind, instead of dying, growing old before maturity, or turning into speed freaks on the track.

Moot point in the case of this particular filly.

You would have never taken on a filly this awkward or crooked as a non-racing prospect. She was also kind of hideous:
http://espn-ak.starwave.com/media/horse/PineIsland_i_060909.jpg

Riding/Show horse people need to understand that the racing industry is far from torturing horses that could have other lives. The racing industry gives value to horses that would otherwise have no value.

Oh right, unless they're 16.1h+, 10+ movers, 10+ jumpers, have great temperments, and are $600. THEN the racetrack people are torturing something that could have another career.

Trust me, I work between retired thoroughbreds and prospective buyers. I've had enough of this attitude.

I have unraced horses I can't hardly give away because they're simply too small... but the first time I have a big sound gelding in, people are waiting in line to 'rescue' it. One of our best stakes horses is not an inch over 15.1h, a sporthorse person wouldn't touch him with a 10ft pole if you tried to GIVE him away.

And besides the idiocity of that train of thought...

Things you say in your post decry the fact you have absolutely no practical experience with thoroughbreds. Or... you are greatly eggagerating your experiences to make a point.

Speed freaks?

I rode two geldings recently that both raced FRIDAY. I rode one Sunday morning. He's 17h. I'm 5'1". We walked, trotted, cantered, and popped a crossrail in the outdoor arena. Of course, he was never much of a racehorse, so maybe that doesn't count.

Sunday afternoon, I had some people coming to look at a horse. I was walking the other recently retired horse in from turnout. They pulled in as I was leading him across the driveway. They fell in love with him. I made a deal, I would get on him and if he felt safe, they could try him. I walked and jogged him down the shedrow. Took him outside, walked, trotted and cantered both directions, asked for (but did not get, lol) a lead change. I put the prospective rider on him. They walked, trotted, and cantered both directions. She had trouble with his left lead, but he kept trying hard for her. She is 14 years old. THAT horse was a stakes winner (statebred, but still counts, lol).

Not ONE of the the OTTBs I have ridden has been nuts. Have they been green? Yes, but they're professionals and they know how to learn. And before anything gets said, the trainer I work for is NOT known for doing the best job of breaking out his babies. They're not speed freaks or adreneline junkies - they're just horses starting a new career.

I used to ride broodmares at a farm I worked at for fun. Some tough stinking racemares I can tell you that... and they were just horses. Most of them actually enjoyed having a job again.

Do they enjoy running? Yes. Absolutely. When I trailride my retired kids, they love to be let out a little. But that doesn't make them insane.

Yes, sometimes I get a little depressed thinking about the wear and tear that goes on the horses as a result of what they do. But heck, when was the last time you saw a top-eventer or jumper or hunter or dressage horse with clean legs?! Nothing in our shedrow would match the legs I recently saw on a PSG dressage horse (and they don't have monthly coffin bone injections, eek!)! They're not backyard pleasure horses, they're sport horses and athletes... just like the hunters or jumpers or eventers or dressage horses.

This is a pointless argument and I vow to not get involved every time I see it... but geez, I get tired of reading these holier-than-thou spouts of mistruth being flung about.

~Adrienne

[harvestmoon]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, she was *not* ugly. Yeesh. ;) But, I agree with the rest of your post. :D

[Iride]

I used to think you had to stay, to leave was chickening out and that racing needed those who wanted change to stay involved. But I'm older now, and not feeling so strong. I think I've finally seen one to many go down.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks for your post, in entirety.

[fish]

I have not said a thing that was a "mistruth"-- and I can assure you that I paid a great deal more than $600 for my TB's (which I remind you that I bought as yearlings-- bidding against racehorse people to buy). I understand full well your frustration at people who want to pat themselves on the back for "rescuing" horses that are actually dirt cheap bargains, and am every bit as dismayed by the lamenesses experienced by far too many dressage horses, etc., as I am by what happens at the track. Indeed, I will happily argue that most racehorses are less stressed out by their jobs than, say, beginner school horses who spend their days plodding around arenas enduring meaningless jerks and kicks from riders who don't know what they're doing. (There was, in fact, a study done at Cornell which found precisely that). All I was truly to say is that I don't find the idea that TB's are born to "run or die" either true or attractive-- indeed, that I find that concept both untrue and apalling.

I also am sorry if I gave the impression that I think all OTTB's are "speed freaks." I would have thought my description of my own OTTB (who was, BTW, 15.1H and crooked-legged as they come) carrying my 3 year old daughter around would have made that clear. What I said was that on those occasions when TB's WERE turned into "speed freaks" destined to "run or die", I didn't think anyone was doing them any favor. Yes, happily many racehorses can be let down and learn new jobs-- especially if they go to riders who know better than to pull on their mouths. Unfortunately, others really do lose their minds, so they are in fact too dangerous to find other careers after racing. I've seen plenty of both. Unfortunately, the latter are common enough to discourage a lot of people from taking a chance on the former-- especially given the competition of European WB's for the show and pleasure horse market.

What I love doing is getting untouched racebred TB's and showing that given any thing resembling an equal shot, TB's can compete and win against the best WB's. I also DO think (excuse me, I know) that that does greatly increase the odds of their still being sound and clean-legged at upwards of 10 years of age, which would be a rarity in a racehorse.

IOW's, I think you mistook my intent. I was not saying that racing rendered all TB's useless, but merely objecting to what I took as someone else's notion that it was somehow romantic or ennobling to view TB's as horses "born to run or die," because I passionately believe in the importance of providing alternatives. Indeed, I truly hope that you're wrong about racing being the only place for your "hideous" black filly, because lord knows, she can't keep running forever.

Believe it or not, I do wish there were a great deal more mutual respect between racehorse people and show horse people. I don't watch racing anymore, but I can assure you that I will forever be grateful for everything I learned on the track, from mucking on up -- and that includes gratitude to the many people there who taught me so much, and gave me so many opportunities and exciting memories I will cherish all the way to my grave.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Any particular favorite races of hers?

[Slewdledo]

How many posters on this thread had heard of Pine Island before Saturday or watched her race?

Any particular favorite races of hers?

Hell, I've wanted to post that question here for awhile too. One of the newspapers that printed graphic photos of her after she broke down had her listed as a "he" in the caption.

(I had certainly heard of her, earlier this year when it seemed she was destined to be a bridesmaid. Was very happy when she finally broke through at Saratoga and turned the tables on Bushfire.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I was a fan.

[caffeinated]

Fish, all I can say is that the comment I made was about heart and courage, not about specifically needing to race or "die" I'm sorry you took it that way- I think that same courage applies to anything a thoroughbred learns to love to do, and that's why I love them so much, and love to see them doing what they love, whether it's dressage, eventing, driving, or racing. I can't change how other people view what I say, but I don't think I meant it the way you've taken it. *shrug*

[fish]

Fish, all I can say is that the comment I made was about heart and courage, not about specifically needing to race or "die" I'm sorry you took it that way- I think that same courage applies to anything a thoroughbred learns to love to do, and that's why I love them so much, and love to see them doing what they love, whether it's dressage, eventing, driving, or racing. I can't change how other people view what I say, but I don't think I meant it the way you've taken it. *shrug*

I've afraid you may have just happened upon a pet peeve/old sore point with me: I hate, absolutely hate, those many books and stories out there (especially on Ruffian) that seem to glamorize/romanticize horses dying on the track. Perhaps I'm especially sensitive to it because I remember buying into it myself back in the days of Tim Tam. These events are tragedies, pure and simple, and I just can't buy into any of the stock consolations for them.

I feel the same way about soldiers dying on the battlefield.

It's a brutal world we live in. I'm not a person who's learned to cope with that very well.

[vineyridge]

Has there been any research on how often a lead change is associated with a breakdown?

I have foxhunted, and our horses go for miles galloping without lead changes. If lead changes increase the chance for catastrophic breakdowns, wouldn't it be better to have a slightly slower races? That would be a training issue that might increase the hosses' odds.

Do 'chasers change leads often?

Is lead changing so often an old or newish technique to squeeze a bit more speed out of a horse?

This fascinates me.

[Lora]

I recently saw on a PSG dressage horse (and they don't have monthly coffin bone injections, eek!)! They're not backyard pleasure horses, they're sport horses and athletes... just like the hunters or jumpers or eventers or dressage horses.

This is a pointless argument and I vow to not get involved every time I see it... but geez, I get tired of reading these holier-than-thou spouts of mistruth being flung about.

~Adrienne[/QUOTE]



What is a PSG dressage horse?

[saratoga]

Moot point in the case of this particular filly.

You would have never taken on a filly this awkward or crooked as a non-racing prospect. She was also kind of hideous:
http://espn-ak.starwave.com/media/horse/PineIsland_i_060909.jpg

Riding/Show horse people need to understand that the racing industry is far from torturing horses that could have other lives. The racing industry gives value to horses that would otherwise have no value.

Oh right, unless they're 16.1h+, 10+ movers, 10+ jumpers, have great temperments, and are $600. THEN the racetrack people are torturing something that could have another career.

~Adrienne

I don't think its fair to say that these horses have no value outside of racing...yeah, the show people clamor after the 17 hand 10 movers, but there are plenty of smaller, non-flashy tbs out there being ridden by amateurs for eventing, pleasure, traill, showing on the local levels, in lessons, etc.- I have one and he is great. Not everyone can afford or even wants a big flashy warmblood lookalike w/perfect conformation. To say that no one would have wanted Pine Island as a riding horse is silly.

You probably have trouble sellling them because really, lots of people are having trouble selling any horse nowadays, unless it is very special and is proven in whatever area it is in.

[summerhorse]

Anyone who followed horse racing knew who Pine Island was, she was the leading contender for 3 yo filly honors.

In every discipline you see horses pushed beyond their limits mentally or physically (but this is the racing forum!). Most racehorses do NOT die on the track or even at slaughter (if 25% roughly of the foal crop goes to slaughter each year that still leaves 75% alive somewhere doing something).

A lot of racehorses ARE ruined for most careers forever though by owners and trainers who keep patching them up and sending them back into the fray until you see them in the kill pen or on a listing as a pasture pet or with "knees" and "ankles" and "old bows" or "NEW bows" or whatever. All things that not only preclude any career as a showhorse but make them a dicey prospect just as a trail horse. Most of them will require at the minimum a lot of vet care and supplements from then on to keep them comfortable much less a good sound riding horse and even if they are sound for awhile these old injuries will catch up with them very quickly in the form of arthritis which will require MORE expensive supplements. All the while this racing on melon ankles and knees is risking a tragic breakdown. "Racing sound" is a joke. Even when the horse is pretty much a hopeless case they will keep racing him as long as they can because they would much rather have him claimed for $2,500 or $5,000 or whatever (or if higher level maybe the insurance money) than sell him to someone for $1,000. Then when the horse IS used up they'll dump him with the meat man for $300. There are good trainers and owners out there but sadly they seem to be the minority.

I don't find it romantic at all for a horse to die on the track (or later after efforts to save it fail). It's a tragedy for all involved. But as our own members horses have proven (even last week with the sad sad loss of Wild By Design) horses are seemingly born with the desire to kill themselves. That can happen performing, in the pasture, or in the stall. That doesn't count true freak accidents like lightning, a hay fire, getting hit by a car, diseases you can't prevent, etc. etc. etc. I truly wish they had not made a Ruffian movie. Although it looks to be a good movie it still can't change the fact that she did indeed die in a horrible way.

[Calico]

How many posters on this thread had heard of Pine Island before Saturday or watched her race?

Any particular favorite races of hers?


I have been fond of Pine Island since an allowance race at Belmont last June which she supremely controlled, and I thought, that horse is special. And she followed up with a summer of G1 wins.

She was one of my favorites this year.

[Jinx]

i radomly saw her in the gazzell and had liked her then...i do not pretend to know 1/2 as much as most of yall...but i just love watching TB's run...so i had seen her and liked her (but then again half the horses i say i like flop in their next race!) but i also read i think gary steven's write up saying she was the horse to watch....so i made her one of my fantsy picks...other than that i dont know much about her...

and on horses breaking down on lead changes...well i personally know 2 yes 2 pleasure horses that have broken down (shattered their legs) when cantering along in the pasture...nice level field...no holes or anything...horses just got off balance (and no they wernt TB's)

to me breakdowns can and do happen at any time in any sport...and i think that if we could compare the frequency of injuries at the track vs the sport horse/pasture incidents i think they would be comprable...

and i dont get the need to "rescue" some yearlings from a sale...to me that sounds like you wanted to get some nice TB for another sport...tell yourself whatever you want...sure i rescued my 10000k horse...he wasn going to go to such a horrendous home at that price...if you want to help horses go out and rescue the ones that acutally need it...what whatever...flame suit on..acutally i dont really give a shit if you flame me its a freaking bb right?

[Albion]

I have foxhunted, and our horses go for miles galloping without lead changes. If lead changes increase the chance for catastrophic breakdowns, wouldn't it be better to have a slightly slower races? That would be a training issue that might increase the hosses' odds.

Do 'chasers change leads often?

Is lead changing so often an old or newish technique to squeeze a bit more speed out of a horse?

I did a stint starting babies at a training track - and they (for the most part) all swapped their leads automatically as soon as they started to gallop "for real" (and by that I mean not just cantering along getting a feel for being out of the barn). The only time I ever had to ask for a lead change was if one was slow in swapping back to the left lead to round a turn.

We certainly didn't school for them, nor were we instructed to do so. They were offered naturally.

[fish]

I did a stint starting babies at a training track - and they (for the most part) all swapped their leads automatically as soon as they started to gallop "for real" (and by that I mean not just cantering along getting a feel for being out of the barn). The only time I ever had to ask for a lead change was if one was slow in swapping back to the left lead to round a turn.

We certainly didn't school for them, nor were we instructed to do so. They were offered naturally.

I broke yearlings for T.J. Kelly, and we did teach them to swap: we wanted the right lead on the straights, left on the turns. It certainly made sense to me: horses are better balanced in the inside lead on turns, and changing leads allows the horse to relieve the systems loaded on one lead by transferring to the other on the straight, where either is fine from a balance perspective. IOW we want the left lead on the turns for balance and the right on the straight to give the left a break.

While some breakdowns may occur when a horse swaps, I've also heard breakdowns explained by failures to swap: perhaps a mistep/loss of balance during the change in the former instances, fatigue in the latter.

No, there's nothing new or unsavory about wanting the horses to change leads when changing direction. The practice is as old as equitation itself and is done to preserve a horse's soundness, not to "extract more speed." (My horses swap when foxhunting, too, and I'm glad of it.)

[fish]

I recently saw on a PSG dressage horse (and they don't have monthly coffin bone injections, eek!)! They're not backyard pleasure horses, they're sport horses and athletes... just like the hunters or jumpers or eventers or dressage horses.

This is a pointless argument and I vow to not get involved every time I see it... but geez, I get tired of reading these holier-than-thou spouts of mistruth being flung about.

~Adrienne



What is a PSG dressage horse?[/QUOTE]

PSG stands for Prix Saint Georges, which is the 1st FEI (internationally recognized and governed) level of dressage-- followed by Intermediare and then Grand Prix, and preceeded by about 4 (depending on the country) more elementary levels prior.

It is, BTW, extremely misleading to suggest that dressage horses of any kind get regular "coffin bone injections." Indeed, I spend a lot of time around dressage horses and this is the first time I've ever even heard of such a procedure.

[fish]

and on horses breaking down on lead changes...well i personally know 2 yes 2 pleasure horses that have broken down (shattered their legs) when cantering along in the pasture...nice level field...no holes or anything...horses just got off balance (and no they wernt TB's)



If this were true, why aren't there the same numbers of people saying that they're scared to watch horses out in fields or at shows any more for fear of seeing another breakdown? The fact is that we can go for years watching horses on our farms and at shows without ever witnessing a fatal accident, but see several in a single bad day at the track, and sometimes in a single race. IMO, anyone who really believes that racehorses are not subjected to stresses and risks to their lives far in excess of those presented by other equine careers has got to be very young and inexperienced or in a serious state of denial.

[Equinetech]

How many posters on this thread had heard of Pine Island before Saturday or watched her race?

Any particular favorite races of hers?
I loved seeing her come charging down through the mud and just run away-and seeing her in the winners circle just coatedwith mud-but that look on her face-like she knew she was better.

[chaotic mind]

When I watched the replay of the race I saw Pine Island stumble twice once shortly after the start and then further on down the track before she fell. Any one else see that? Could those stumbles be when she initially hurt herself?

[saratoga]

IMO, anyone who really believes that racehorses are not subjected to stresses and risks to their lives far in excess of those presented by other equine careers has got to be very young and inexperienced or in a serious state of denial.

AMEN.

[Kerrysmom818]

When I watched the replay of the race I saw Pine Island stumble twice once shortly after the start and then further on down the track before she fell. Any one else see that? Could those stumbles be when she initially hurt herself?

Yes, I noticed that in the replay - I thought it was just me. We were at the track, but didn't see her go down as it happened across the infield while they were behind the infield stands . . . I realized there had been two accidents when the first ambulance headed down the track away from Fleet Indian. It took quite awhile for the second ambulance to arrive for Fleet Indian. I am getting so I hate BC Day . . . I didn't watch for several years after Go For Wand . . . At least it appears the TV coverage was better for this though - after GFW went down they kept replaying it over and over . . .:no:

[saratoga]

I am an endurance rider....it is not true that endurance horses "break down" as in busting their legs up, like happens in racing. Yes, you may get the occassional soft tissue injury type thing that causes lameness, or a horse getting hurt from an accident such as stepping in a hole, tripping, etc. but no catastrophic fractures occur as a result of just moving down the trail.

I feel bad that people in racing feel like we are beating up on them.....I never said and I don't think anyone else has said, that we think everyone in racing is a horrible, heartless horse torturer. But racing itself is just so much more dangerous to the horse than any other sport (well except maybe upper level eventing and the number of people doing that is very small). And the fact that it is a business and therefore full of unethical people just makes it that much worse.

[Equinetech]

I am an endurance rider....it is not true that endurance horses "break down" as in busting their legs up, like happens in racing. Yes, you may get the occassional soft tissue injury type thing that causes lameness, or a horse getting hurt from an accident such as stepping in a hole, tripping, etc. but no catastrophic fractures occur as a result of just moving down the trail.

I feel bad that people in racing feel like we are beating up on them.....I never said and I don't think anyone else has said, that we think everyone in racing is a horrible, heartless horse torturer. But racing itself is just so much more dangerous to the horse than any other sport (well except maybe upper level eventing and the number of people doing that is very small). And the fact that it is a business and therefore full of unethical people just makes it that much worse.Now this is just baloney. Just because YOU have never seen a horse break a leg on the trail doesn't mean endurance horses never break their legs.

I HAD A STALLION SHATTER HIS LEG IN A STALL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE! Shit happens. I've had a horse goofing off in the round pen rear up, slip and fall over, breaking her neck. I've been on a horse in a simple low stress hunter lesson and had them catch a rail and fall. I've had a horse at the trainers slip on a slick patch in the indoor and slam the foreleg into a wall, sustaining an injury not unlike Barbaros or Pine Island's. I've been on the EMS team at a rodeo and seen a bull just bucking (no rider) break his back. I've been on poker trail rides and passed riders with horses pulled up with serious leg injuries-including soft tissue and fractures. We see alot of competition horses in a wide variety of disciplines in the clinic I work at. The racehorses aren't proportionally any "sicker" or "lamer" than any other-although they DO tend to get more preventive visits (we almost never get the "well we've been trying X for two weeks-we get the "he looked at me crosseyed this morning so I'd like radiographs)

If this had been a $20000 claiming race no one would be on here saying how terrible it was, unless it was a fellow COTHers horse.

[witherbee]

What, hunter/jumpers, dressage, eventing etc aren't businesses??? There aren't unethical people in those other disciplines??? What was all that talk about the horses killed for insurance reasons - must have been in racing, right? Give me a break - there are many unethical trainers, dealers, breeders out there in all aspects of equine sport. I happen to agree that there are more catastrophic breakdowns in racing than in other disciplines, but I think a lot of has to do with the track conditions and hopefully the polytrack will help and will quickly become the norm at both the training tracks and the racetracks. I do the hunters as well as race, and it's horrible some of the stuff that people do to their show horses for the sake of winning, so don't preach to me about racing. We x-ray all of ours before we start with them, we breed for good bone, we watch for heat or tenderness or anything that could cause a problem. We take things at each horse's individual pace. We find good homes for them when they are done racing or we keep them ourselves. There are good and bad people in every walk of life. I think the discussions on what we can do to improve things are helpful, but the "unethical" and money hungry insinuations are just low. Thanks for kicking us when we are down.

[Kim]

On Friday, a co-worker asked if I was going to watch the race.

I explained to him that I cannot watch racing after seeing my favorite horse, Timely Writer, break down on TV when I was a kid. :(

I will never, ever forget that. I told my co-worker, "I am way too afraid that another one will break down."

RIP Pine Island.

[Slewdledo]

On Friday, a co-worker asked if I was going to watch the race.

I explained to him that I cannot watch racing after seeing my favorite horse, Timely Writer, break down on TV when I was a kid. :(

I will never, ever forget that. I told my co-worker, "I am way too afraid that another one will break down."

RIP Pine Island.

Well, you are missing out.

[Kim]

<<Well, you are missing out.>>

That is your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. :)

Sending lots of positive thoughts to Pine Island's connections and all those who loved her.

[Arcadien]

Have to admit I haven't read every page of this thread (I'll go back and do that, but right now I have 6 TBs out there waiting for dinner!)

But it seems we're getting the racing is so cruel people out here again, and while I respect their opinions (heck I was one of them 2 decades ago!) I had to throw in another thought to the mix -

I got into TBs and training them to race for many reasons, but one big one was this: all the OTTB's I worked with in my 20 year show (eventing,h/j) career before delving into racing, with all their various issues and attitude problems, there was always one thing they never failed to enjoy whole heartedly, no matter how old, or who was on their back - and that was, full out galloping.

I've never sat on a TB that didn't feel like soaring when I gave it a chance to run full out. Soaring in mind and body. Its what they are born to do.

Now, spending all afternoon jumping 60 warmup fences then 40 fences to earn someone a ribbon, round and round, round and round... Or spending all morning with a bad dressage rider trying to make them look like that Grand prix horse rider saw in the morning, without having a clue how its done... Or going out on trail with a 5 inch shank attached to a bike chain in its mouth, with an ill trained rider expecting it to go all afternoon in spite of not having been ridden in weeks...

Sorry, I've seen far more misery among horses in the non race world, than in it. A racehorse gets to do what it knows how and relishes doing. If it becomes a tragic victim of a breakdown, its suffering is short and relatively painfree, and its dies peacefully knowing it did what it was born to do.

If I were a horse, I'd rather Pine Island's lot than that of most of the local show/trail horses lives I've witnessed in my 40 years. I'd rather still she won the race and retired sound to produce a baby or two... but I'd still prefer going down as a fantastic fit filly doing what I'm so good at I'm amongst the best in the world... than end up dying a 25 year old after a career of toting amateurs around 2'6" courses or trying to learn dressage on me or just leaving me in a pasture, never having a chance to see what I can do.

JMHO,
Arcadien

[Drvmb1ggl3]

.

[genevieveg17]

A very touching tribute to Pine Island on You Tube
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SZhCaBin79o
I don't know if the link has been posted yet on here.

Genevieve

[saratoga]

Now this is just baloney. Just because YOU have never seen a horse break a leg on the trail doesn't mean endurance horses never break their legs.
.


Oh please, if an endurance horse broke a leg, it would be a freak *accident*- like if they stepped in a hole, got kicked by another horse, had a wreck in the trailer, etc.. Their legs do not spontaneously break when they are trotting down the trail.

Fractures are extremely common on the track and a part of the sport. They are certainly not in endurance or most other sports. Yes, freak tragic things can happen at any time to anyone but it is not routine like it is in racing.

[abrant]

Fractures are extremely common on the track and a part of the sport.

Can someone please pull out the statistics to despute this? I'm too tired :/

~Adrienne

[YoungFilly]

A very touching tribute to Pine Island on You Tube
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SZhCaBin79o
I don't know if the link has been posted yet on here.

Genevieve

Oh that video has me bawling my eyes out. Look at her eyes, what a sweet, sweet face. You poor, sweet, sweet love. Oh you good sweet baby.

Thank you for posting it. I would have bought her little cuteness. I am so, so sad this happened. :(

Who knows why this happens. I have read all the other posts but I don't have the heart to get into the fray. I do think there is a huge disconnect with racers vs sporthorse people, but who is to say anything about anything?

I could take stabs at eventers, and I could take stabs at hunters, and they surely could take stabs at dressage riders, but for what? Even dressage horses get hurt, and have injuries.... I guess, to us, a 2yr old is not even ridden yet, so it seems like young race horses who are done by the age of 3-4, it doesn't seem fair. But, I have seem some OTTB's that go on to other things, and have good lives, so I am not going to say anything.

PS, does anyone know her exercise rider? She seems like the type that cares about their animals. :)

[abrant]

It is, BTW, extremely misleading to suggest that dressage horses of any kind get regular "coffin bone injections." Indeed, I spend a lot of time around dressage horses and this is the first time I've ever even heard of such a procedure.

Sorry, I guess if you hadn't heard of it, it must not exist.

A friend of mine was considering purchasing said horse. They had me look at the vet bills. I saw it on the vet bill.

~Adrienne

Google is your friend.

[fish]

Have to admit I haven't read every page of this thread
I got into TBs and training them to race for many reasons, but one big one was this: all the OTTB's I worked with in my 20 year show (eventing,h/j) career before delving into racing, with all their various issues and attitude problems, there was always one thing they never failed to enjoy whole heartedly, no matter how old, or who was on their back - and that was, full out galloping.

I've never sat on a TB that didn't feel like soaring when I gave it a chance to run full out. Soaring in mind and body. Its what they are born to do.

JMHO,
Arcadien

And how many TB's have you ridden that have never been taught/trained to run? If you had read this entire thread, you may have noticed that there is ample evidence that prior to such training many TB's, including the great Ruffian, seemed pretty disinclined to run, i.e., lazy.

One of the wonderful things I've discovered about TB's is that once they get into their training most of them will put everything they have into trying to please, and swell with pride when they've managed to do so. The TB's I have here have never performed a true racehorse gallop anywhere but in the fields (if then), but definitely seem "to enjoy whole heartedly" any number of other movements that give them opportunities to "soar." One of my favorites was my John Alden filly's first true (and quite wonderful) trot lengthening: I was so thrilled that I immediately jumped off, praised her and pulled off her tack, giving her the freedom of the farm. Her response was to swell up with pride and trot around me, showing off the same lengthening she had just learned under tack. She also loves to jump. I have no doubt that she would also have loved to run if that turned out to have been her job, but despite her breeding, I don't think she was so "born to run" that she feels deprived of a thing. Although most TB's are BRED to run, I've found that they are actually BORN able to excell at and love any number of careers which give them a much better shot at longterm health and happiness than racing.

Still, I am not attacking racing-- I still have friends in it who do an absolutely phenomenal job with their horses, am grateful for all the lessons that are learned on the track and financed by racing interests which benefit all horses, am indebted to racehorse breeders and racing as a test for giving us generation after generation of these incredible athletes, etc., etc. I just object to the ideas that TB's were so "born to run" that (a) they can't be just as happy (or happier) in other occupations, and (b) it's so much their "destiny" that it's better for them (as some posters seem to suggest) to die running than to live longer and sounder, but less glamorous/glorious lives off the track.

I'm afraid people who make remarks along the lines of "I'd rather go down on the track in my glory like Pine Island than end up living a long life jumping 2'6" courses..." remind me of countless teenagers (including myself), who aspire to go down in tragic glory while still young, but find themselves changing their minds the closer they get to 30! Despite their self-destructive tendencies, I have yet to meet a horse not suffering from a terminal disease who showed anything resembling a death wish.

[fish]

Sorry, I guess if you hadn't heard of it, it must not exist.

A friend of mine was considering purchasing said horse. They had me look at the vet bills. I saw it on the vet bill.

~Adrienne

Google is your friend.

That's very unfortunate, and though I don't doubt that the procedure exists, I can assure you that it's anything but commonplace among dressage horses. At first I assumed you were talking about hock injections which are quite common for maintenance of older show horses, but those are generally given more like once or twice a year, not monthly.

The horse your friend was considering must have a very interesting history.


(Your tone, BTW, seems pretty nasty. I hope you're feeling ok.)

[saratoga]

. but I'd still prefer going down as a fantastic fit filly doing what I'm so good at I'm amongst the best in the world... than end up dying a 25 year old after a career of toting amateurs around 2'6" courses or trying to learn dressage on me or just leaving me in a pasture, never having a chance to see what I can do.


Wow, this is very bizarre to me, but it takes all kinds :)

[chaotic mind]

Why wasn't Pine Island pulled up after the second stumble? I would have thought the jock would have felt something wrong and pulled her up. Racing experts is normal for a jock to keep racing a horse under those circumstances?

[Freebird!]

Now this is just baloney. Just because YOU have never seen a horse break a leg on the trail doesn't mean endurance horses never break their legs.

I HAD A STALLION SHATTER HIS LEG IN A STALL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE! Shit happens. I've had a horse goofing off in the round pen rear up, slip and fall over, breaking her neck. I've been on a horse in a simple low stress hunter lesson and had them catch a rail and fall. I've had a horse at the trainers slip on a slick patch in the indoor and slam the foreleg into a wall, sustaining an injury not unlike Barbaros or Pine Island's. I've been on the EMS team at a rodeo and seen a bull just bucking (no rider) break his back. I've been on poker trail rides and passed riders with horses pulled up with serious leg injuries-including soft tissue and fractures. We see alot of competition horses in a wide variety of disciplines in the clinic I work at. The racehorses aren't proportionally any "sicker" or "lamer" than any other-although they DO tend to get more preventive visits (we almost never get the "well we've been trying X for two weeks-we get the "he looked at me crosseyed this morning so I'd like radiographs)

If this had been a $20000 claiming race no one would be on here saying how terrible it was, unless it was a fellow COTHers horse.


Agreed on all accounts. My beloved TB, Cautious Val was imported from New Zealand, trained and raced as a Steeplechaser here in the US, Evented with Mark Phillips, and then was passed down to me. Sound. I had a ball riding him, and then leased him out to a girl who showed him in the Jumpers, showing no higher then 3'6, and hunters, but after a year and a half he was returned to me, lame, skinny and crazy. I finally got him back sound and sane, and found a wonderful person to buy him. He was sent off on trial, to an amazing farm on a Sunday. He was turned out with a nice big run in shed, pasture with no holes, good fencing, and only one other horse in the pasture with him, who he got along great with. On Tues. afternoon I got a call that he had a compound fracture above his hock, which was done out in the pasture. The vet thinks that he just turned, and his leg snapped. Crap happens. In all disciplines, in all parts of the world, crap happens. I think that for the most part we as horsemen and women do the best that we can, with what we can. I just don't understand why there always has to be one right way, and everything else wrong. I would go on to say how every discipline has it's cross to bear, but really, it's already been said. A lot.

Back to real meaning of this thread: R.I.P. Pine Island. :cry:

[Jinx]

If this were true, why aren't there the same numbers of people saying that they're scared to watch horses out in fields or at shows any more for fear of seeing another breakdown? The fact is that we can go for years watching horses on our farms and at shows without ever witnessing a fatal accident, but see several in a single bad day at the track, and sometimes in a single race. IMO, anyone who really believes that racehorses are not subjected to stresses and risks to their lives far in excess of those presented by other equine careers has got to be very young and inexperienced or in a serious state of denial.


you know what its not worth it...

im a lier, im stupid whatever...

you know i also saw a horse shatter his upper mandable in his stall...oh wait i must be telling tales again...

[Jinx]

Agreed on all accounts. My beloved TB, Cautious Val was imported from New Zealand, trained and raced as a Steeplechaser here in the US, Evented with Mark Phillips, and then was passed down to me. Sound. I had a ball riding him, and then leased him out to a girl who showed him in the Jumpers, showing no higher then 3'6, and hunters, but after a year and a half he was returned to me, lame, skinny and crazy. I finally got him back sound and sane, and found a wonderful person to buy him. He was sent off on trial, to an amazing farm on a Sunday. He was turned out with a nice big run in shed, pasture with no holes, good fencing, and only one other horse in the pasture with him, who he got along great with. On Tues. afternoon I got a call that he had a compound fracture above his hock, which was done out in the pasture. The vet thinks that he just turned, and his leg snapped. Crap happens. In all disciplines, in all parts of the world, crap happens. I think that for the most part we as horsemen and women do the best that we can, with what we can. I just don't understand why there always has to be one right way, and everything else wrong. I would go on to say how every discipline has it's cross to bear, but really, it's already been said. A lot.

Back to real meaning of this thread: R.I.P. Pine Island. :cry:

amen to that!

[Kenike]

"Anyone who followed horse racing knew who Pine Island was, she was the leading contender for 3 yo filly honors."

I don't follow very closely, but even I knew who she was! She was one of my favorites, maybe because she was built more like a girraffe than a TB, but also because she ran her heart out and had such a sweet disposition.

I can't get the replays on the BC webpage to work. It's quite irritating...but I'll keep trying.

I asked one of the managers where we bought our car (picked up today) if his daughter watched the race, then told him I was glad she didn't. Told him what happened. MISTAKE!! Learned his family's opinion on racing and that they are Parelli faithful (though that's a topic for another thread). Some of the things he said just reminded me of the amount of people out there who are pretty ignorant to racing.....and I'm not exactly one who knows a whole lot about it! It just bothers me since those are the people who will usually be the first to condemn racing, yet will never buy an OTTB.

[Kim]

Just to clarify my previous post -- I was not saying anything against racing per se...

I was just saying that *I* cannot watch racing b/c I saw my favorite horse die on live TV as a kid.

[ChocoMare]

see attached pic ;)

[fish]

you know what its not worth it...

im a lier, im stupid whatever...

you know i also saw a horse shatter his upper mandable in his stall...oh wait i must be telling tales again...

You're right: it's not worth it.

No one ever accused you of "telling tells" (although I must say that your repeated suggestions to the contrary does give me pause regarding your accuracy). I never said tragedies don't happen outside racing-- or that dressage horses (and who knows what others) don't get coffin bone injections. What I have said is that breakdowns occur at a much *higher rate* on the track than elsewhere. It's TOUGH out there-- for the horses, and for the people, too. That's why racing is such a huge test of soundness (both mental and physical), in addition to speed, and why, if you DO find a TB who's come out of racing mentally and physically sound, you've found a real treasure likely to last forever as a show horse or eventer and capable of forging through anything for you.

The older I get (and I'm getting pretty old) the more I tend to look at most things as double-edged swords. Racing is a perfect case in point. Because the degree of stress/trauma is so huge, it tests horses as no other sport does and we can (and do) learn a great deal from this which is of great value; for precisely the same reason, the sport breaks huge numbers of horses down.

Yes, I believe there are many ways in which many (but certainly not all) racing barns, trainers, track managers, etc. could improve their practices (and attitudes) so as to improve the lot of the horses, including reducing the numbers of breakdowns, but I really don't have time to get into that and you obviously don't have enough respect for me to respect anything I'd say here anyway. Besides, others have already described many of the practices which aggravate the problem. All I'm pointing out here is the fact that the high numbers of breakdowns are turning away legions of viewers --including plenty of old racetrackers like myself. Racing has known this for a long time (sure have been plenty of articles in the BH, etc., about it), complained about the media replays, wondered what it could do to improve the damage to its public image, etc., etc. The thing is that horrible as the replays are/large as the role the media has, it's the reality as much as the presentation that turns people away. I heard about breakdowns on the radio as a child, then saw them at the track, and certainly got a huge taste of what was going during my stint managing a lay-up facility where I had to manage blistered and pin-fired legs, nurse horses with severed tendons, etc. I didn't need to turn on a T.V. to get more than enough.

You know, I haven't called you a liar YET, but if you want to claim that show and pleasure horses encounter anywhere near the level of trauma and risk racehorses do, I'll be pretty tempted: you'd either be lying or wearing blinders. To me, it would be just about equivalent to saying combat soldiers encounter no more risks and suffer no more injuries than shop clerks or lawyers-- after all, both of them get shot at occasionally, too. Give me a break!

Also, I don't think many of us who've decided we can't stomach racing have a "holier than thou" attitude. Have you considered the possibility that we might simply be too weak, not tough enough to face the heartbreak, as Michael Matz (who I greatly admire) just did, and then go on to saddle another horse? I suspect I wouldn't make much of a soldier either. That certainly doesn't make me feel that I'm "holier" than those who ennoble themselves on the battlefield.

[Freebird!]

see attached pic ;)

:lol:

[harvestmoon]

You know, I haven't called you a liar YET, but if you want to claim that show and pleasure horses encounter anywhere near the level of trauma and risk racehorses do, I'll be pretty tempted: you'd either be lying or wearing blinders. To me, it would be just about equivalent to saying combat soldiers encounter no more risks and suffer no more injuries than shop clerks or lawyers-- after all, both of them get shot at occasionally, too. Give me a break!

Okay, so what shall we do? Ban racing? That isn't going to happen. So, why not work towards making racing safer (which I believe the industry is doing)? And, no, show and pleasure horses may not have as much trauma and risk, but it still happens. Is it better for a sore horse to get his hocks injected so that he can trudge around a course for that ribbon? No, his life probably isn't in danger, but I wouldn't call it a pleasant life. JMO.

[fish]

Okay, so what shall we do? Ban racing? That isn't going to happen. So, why not work towards making racing safer (which I believe the industry is doing)? And, no, show and pleasure horses may not have as much trauma and risk, but it still happens. Is it better for a sore horse to get his hocks injected so that he can trudge around a course for that ribbon? No, his life probably isn't in danger, but I wouldn't call it a pleasant life. JMO.

Guess it's much better to have the hocks injected, stifles cut, legs blistered and pinfired, etc. so a sore horse get in one more race??!!!! Do you really think a horse cares whether s/he is laboring for a ribbon or a purse??

As for the issues of banning racing, working towards making races safer, etc., why not read and respond rationally to whole posts instead of picking bits and pieces to distort and throw a tantrum about? I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm not "working to make racing safer," because I simply don't have the stomach/toughness, whatever you want to call it, to remain involved with the sport. I'm much happier (and better suited) to trying to improve the lives of show and pleasure horses which are (as you say), also far from ideal although spared racing's magnitude of trauma.

[harvestmoon]

Guess it's much better to have the hocks injected, stifles cut, legs blistered and pinfired, etc. so a sore horse get in one more race??!!!! Do you really think a horse cares whether s/he is laboring for a ribbon or a purse??

As for the issues of banning racing, working towards making races safer, etc., why not read and respond rationally to whole posts instead of picking bits and pieces to distort and throw a tantrum about? I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm not "working to make racing safer," because I simply don't have the stomach/toughness, whatever you want to call it, to remain involved with the sport. I'm much happier (and better suited) to trying to improve the lives of show and pleasure horses which are (as you say), also far from ideal although spared racing's magnitude of trauma.

Wow. :rolleyes: Didn't think I was throwing a tantrum or not responding rationally. Huh. And did I say that it didn't happen in racing? No. Oh well. Where's that beating a dead horse icon? :)

[Jessi P]

That's why Laz Barrera (I think it was Laz, someone correct me if I am wrong) said about Horseracing :

"This is no game for little boys in short pants."


Truer words were never said.

[Jinx]

You're right: it's not worth it.

No one ever accused you of "telling tells" (although I must say that your repeated suggestions to the contrary does give me pause regarding your accuracy). I never said tragedies don't happen outside racing-- or that dressage horses (and who knows what others) don't get coffin bone injections. What I have said is that breakdowns occur at a much *higher rate* on the track than elsewhere. It's TOUGH out there-- for the horses, and for the people, too. That's why racing is such a huge test of soundness (both mental and physical), in addition to speed, and why, if you DO find a TB who's come out of racing mentally and physically sound, you've found a real treasure likely to last forever as a show horse or eventer and capable of forging through anything for you.

The older I get (and I'm getting pretty old) the more I tend to look at most things as double-edged swords. Racing is a perfect case in point. Because the degree of stress/trauma is so huge, it tests horses as no other sport does and we can (and do) learn a great deal from this which is of great value; for precisely the same reason, the sport breaks huge numbers of horses down.

Yes, I believe there are many ways in which many (but certainly not all) racing barns, trainers, track managers, etc. could improve their practices (and attitudes) so as to improve the lot of the horses, including reducing the numbers of breakdowns, but I really don't have time to get into that and you obviously don't have enough respect for me to respect anything I'd say here anyway. Besides, others have already described many of the practices which aggravate the problem. All I'm pointing out here is the fact that the high numbers of breakdowns are turning away legions of viewers --including plenty of old racetrackers like myself. Racing has known this for a long time (sure have been plenty of articles in the BH, etc., about it), complained about the media replays, wondered what it could do to improve the damage to its public image, etc., etc. The thing is that horrible as the replays are/large as the role the media has, it's the reality as much as the presentation that turns people away. I heard about breakdowns on the radio as a child, then saw them at the track, and certainly got a huge taste of what was going during my stint managing a lay-up facility where I had to manage blistered and pin-fired legs, nurse horses with severed tendons, etc. I didn't need to turn on a T.V. to get more than enough.

You know, I haven't called you a liar YET, but if you want to claim that show and pleasure horses encounter anywhere near the level of trauma and risk racehorses do, I'll be pretty tempted: you'd either be lying or wearing blinders. To me, it would be just about equivalent to saying combat soldiers encounter no more risks and suffer no more injuries than shop clerks or lawyers-- after all, both of them get shot at occasionally, too. Give me a break!

Also, I don't think many of us who've decided we can't stomach racing have a "holier than thou" attitude. Have you considered the possibility that we might simply be too weak, not tough enough to face the heartbreak, as Michael Matz (who I greatly admire) just did, and then go on to saddle another horse? I suspect I wouldn't make much of a soldier either. That certainly doesn't make me feel that I'm "holier" than those who ennoble themselves on the battlefield.

the first time you replied to my post...you said "IF THIS WERE TRUE..."

To me, that comes off as you dont believe my experiences. Or you were insinuating that my personal experiences were not true. Which to me seems as though I am being called a liar. I apologize if I took your comments the wrong way, or out of context. Its been a bit of a stressful week...;-)

I do AGREE with you that racehorses have a propensity for injuries. HOWEVER I feel that with the vast number of horses in the US,WORLD etc that are NOT racing we do not have an accurate picture of the number of NON racehorse injuries. OR the number of racehorse injuries as a WHOLE.

Personally I would like to see a large scale study conducted on TB breakdowns. A study to encompass things such as total # of breakdowns on ALL tracks in the US. Broken down by track, class of racing, time of year, length of race, speed in race.

IS there a correlation between a track with tighter turns and higher # of breakdowns. Poly track V dirt V turf. What types of dirt tracks are the most breakdowns occuring (sandy loam, clay -- soil type) Age of horses, weight carried, # of starts etc

I feel that the above variables could be easily obtained if tracks were to just keep track of which horses broke down. Then the data could be easily analyzed to determine if there is any type of relationship.

As far as I have found there hasnt been a large scale study of this issue, nor does it seem that there is any data avaliable.

anyway I really would like to see something like this conducted...to me it may be enlightening and even potentially life saving for racehorses. We all know that they arnt going to stop running horses anytime soon -- maybe this could be a way to lessen the number of breakdowns....

thoughts?

(ps if there has been a study conducted I would be very interested to read it...so if you know of please point me in that direction ;-)

[fish]

the first time you replied to my post...you said "IF THIS WERE TRUE..."

To me, that comes off as you dont believe my experiences. Or you were insinuating that my personal experiences were not true. Which to me seems as though I am being called a liar. I apologize if I took your comments the wrong way, or out of context. Its been a bit of a stressful week...;-)

I do AGREE with you that racehorses have a propensity for injuries. HOWEVER I feel that with the vast number of horses in the US,WORLD etc that are NOT racing we do not have an accurate picture of the number of NON racehorse injuries. OR the number of racehorse injuries as a WHOLE.

Personally I would like to see a large scale study conducted on TB breakdowns. A study to encompass things such as total # of breakdowns on ALL tracks in the US. Broken down by track, class of racing, time of year, length of race, speed in race.

IS there a correlation between a track with tighter turns and higher # of breakdowns. Poly track V dirt V turf. What types of dirt tracks are the most breakdowns occuring (sandy loam, clay -- soil type) Age of horses, weight carried, # of starts etc

I feel that the above variables could be easily obtained if tracks were to just keep track of which horses broke down. Then the data could be easily analyzed to determine if there is any type of relationship.

As far as I have found there hasnt been a large scale study of this issue, nor does it seem that there is any data avaliable.

anyway I really would like to see something like this conducted...to me it may be enlightening and even potentially life saving for racehorses. We all know that they arnt going to stop running horses anytime soon -- maybe this could be a way to lessen the number of breakdowns....

thoughts?

(ps if there has been a study conducted I would be very interested to read it...so if you know of please point me in that direction ;-)

Try contacting Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. I know they've done extensive work on the sorts of questions you're asking about track conditions-- specifically the effects of increased banking of the turns. They may be able to "point you in the direction" of studies done on other factors affecting racehorse soundness as well.

There was also an excellent article in the Bloodhorse maybe 4-5 years ago discussing various policies which run counter to producing and maintaining sound racehorses and suggesting alternatives which could improve matters. I wish I could lay my hands on that article-- or at least remember the author's name. Perhaps the people at *Bloodhorse* could help you, though.

You could also contact Michigan State University, whose exercise physiologist (Brian Nielson-- not sure about the spelling) has done a lot of work on the effects of traditional stalling/training practices on bone durability (many of them apparently increase the chances of breakdown). Some somewhat similar studies have also been done at Fair Hill Training Center in Maryland (i.e., the effects of "long, slow" vs speed bursts on soundness, etc.)

I don't know if any large scale studies of the sort you desire have been done, but the people/places I've mentioned would probably know if it had-- and be able to tell you of any that have come close or are in the works.

The complaint I've most commonly heard from researchers, though, is that they have a very hard time convincing the people in the business controlling most of what happens to most of the horses to pay much attention to their results.

[asb_own_me]

Can you just stop it with the back and forth? No one here is 100% right or 100% wrong, and posting your concerns about racing on a BB won't change anything. I thought this thread was about Pine Island. Have a little respect.

[Laurierace]

UC Davis conducted a breakdown study, I am not sure if it is on going or not. I do remember that they implicated toe grabs on the front shoes in a giant percentage of fatal breakdowns. There has not been a toe grab in my barn since.
I know years ago every fatal breakdown in PA was sent to the state lab for examination as well. I don't know if a study was published about the findings or not.

[Jinx]

thanks laurierace and fish,

i will start looking through journal resources this weekend to see if i can find the findings...

toegrabs? humm interesting....

[brightskyfarm]

To update: In Pa, all horses still undergo autopsy.

[brightskyfarm]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA052106.1A.dying.racehorses.7e1a7e5.html
just one article --- related to Texas....but still, some good information. I will ask my vet (who I will be seeing later today)...if there are any studies and more information on this subject.

[summerhorse]

Try contacting Washington State University in Pullman, Washington. I know they've done extensive work on the sorts of questions you're asking about track conditions-- specifically the effects of increased banking of the turns. They may be able to "point you in the direction" of studies done on other factors affecting racehorse soundness as well.

There was also an excellent article in the Bloodhorse maybe 4-5 years ago discussing various policies which run counter to producing and maintaining sound racehorses and suggesting alternatives which could improve matters. I wish I could lay my hands on that article-- or at least remember the author's name. Perhaps the people at *Bloodhorse* could help you, though.

You could also contact Michigan State University, whose exercise physiologist (Brian Nielson-- not sure about the spelling) has done a lot of work on the effects of traditional stalling/training practices on bone durability (many of them apparently increase the chances of breakdown). Some somewhat similar studies have also been done at Fair Hill Training Center in Maryland (i.e., the effects of "long, slow" vs speed bursts on soundness, etc.)

I don't know if any large scale studies of the sort you desire have been done, but the people/places I've mentioned would probably know if it had-- and be able to tell you of any that have come close or are in the works.

The complaint I've most commonly heard from researchers, though, is that they have a very hard time convincing the people in the business controlling most of what happens to most of the horses to pay much attention to their results.


Yes it is frustrating. They have clear evidence that toe grabs and low heel/long toe trimming are MAJOR contributors to catostrophic breakdowns (not to mention the usual non fatal injuries) but look around the shed row and what do you see? Some of these CANTER (and other sites like that) horses I see while going through the lists I look at their feet and think NO WONDER this horse can't run and has (ankle, ossolets, bows, etc etc etc), their feet are terrible!!

[Laurierace]

Just one of the many reason I love getting horses that other trainers have had previously. I worm them, feed them, do their teeth, do their feet, and put them on Lubrisyn. More often than not I get a brand new horse that the previous owner wouldn't even recognize.

[summerhorse]

Just one of the many reason I love getting horses that other trainers have had previously. I worm them, feed them, do their teeth, do their feet, and put them on Lubrisyn. More often than not I get a brand new horse that the previous owner wouldn't even recognize.

Yeah for some of these horses just the FOOD would move them up! =8-O Some are fit and some are just plain thin (no muscle, too much bone). But the feet, oh my, the feet just make me cringe. And telling the farrier not to do that doesn't even really take much horsey know how!

[Boston Chicken]

I was so sad to just catch-up on this. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned her "suspect conformation and size" or something along those lines...can someone say more? She did look huge (and incredibly beautiful).

Thanks

[VirginiaBred]

I'll cross post this. I have it on the A Tribute to Pine Island thread. From The Barbaro Recovery:


Update 1029: Barbara Livingston has created a Pine Island Album (http://www.barbaralivingston.com/gallery/album164?page=1). She sent me the link along with this message:

This album was so tough to put together...
I'll never forget photographing this large, kind lady. People who didn't see the beauty in her face didn't look closely. Her brilliant, large eyes were so trusting and content, reflecting the love she felt from those around her. Her actions were proud and comfortable, her manner quiet..and all wrapped in a most beautiful oversized package.
A girlfriend who worked with her called Pine Island "Big Moose" in the affectionate way possible. I thought of her as a gentle giant. Everyone at her barn adored her and showered her with affection - which she happily accepted. While her long ears swept forward for peppermints, they also pricked at any gesture of kindness.
It's amazing to think of what she accomplished this year - and, to think, she was still learning about the game. She was such a shooting star.
We are heartsick for the Phipps' family, Claiborne Farm's staff and the McGaughey crew.

[ForTheTBs]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA052106.1A.dying.racehorses.7e1a7e5.html
just one article --- related to Texas....but still, some good information. I will ask my vet (who I will be seeing later today)...if there are any studies and more information on this subject.

PLEASE edit your post with a warning about the graphic photo included in that article. That photo of the gray trying to stand was the LAST thing I needed to see right now. :cry:

As far as racing vs. other disciplines goes - so what? The answer to fixing what is wrong with racing needs to be answered & addressed by those in the industry, not by saying "well, other disciplines do xxxx". So what? What about OUR discipline?

[Kenike]

that was truly beautiful....and very difficult to look at the final picture in the album. Thanks for the crosspost, VB :)

[Kenike]

Gosh, that was a very biased article! There were some good things, but mostly it was brutal. And, yes, I agree about the photo of the grey filly (though she did manage to get up, I watched the video...now I just wonder about the jockey).

I went to Retama every week for 3 years and never saw an accident.....I got lucky, I guess.

[abrant]

Gosh, that was a very biased article! There were some good things, but mostly it was brutal. And, yes, I agree about the photo of the grey filly (though she did manage to get up, I watched the video...now I just wonder about the jockey).

I went to Retama every week for 3 years and never saw an accident.....I got lucky, I guess.

That article was extremely biased... :/ Plain bad journalism.

The clue is when someone uses a "harness" to lead a horse, showed how interested the reporter was in learning about what was really going on.

~Adrienne

[Cammie]

From The Bloodhorse website- 11/13/2006 (www.bloodhorse.com)

Phipps Reinforces Commitment to Research Following Pine Island's Injury
by Ray Paulick


Ogden Mills Phipps said the fatal injury suffered by his family stable's Pine Island in the Nov. 4 Emirates Airline Breeders' Cup Distaff (gr. I) only serves to recommit him to additional attention and resources to equine research and organizations such as the Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation.
"We think it's important to raise money for research," Phipps said. "It's important for all of us in the business to do something about racing injuries and to minimize them."

Phipps said he does not believe the condition of the Churchill Downs dirt racing surface led to the catastrophic injury to Pine Island's left front fetlock in a race that also saw favorite Fleet Indian pull up at the top of the stretch with a suspensory injury. "I had no concerns about the track," Phipps said about a surface some jockeys and horsemen called inconsistent in its footing. "I had heard some horses liked the track and other hadn't. Never did I hear it was unsafe, or never was there any thought going in that there was something wrong with our filly."

Pine Island, trained by Shug McGaughey, was a 3-year-old daughter of Arch out of the Seeking the Gold mare, Matlacha Pass, a full sister to 2005 Breeders' Cup Distaff winner Pleasant Home. Bred in Kentucky by the Phipps Stable, Pine Island didn't race at 2. She won her first two starts this year -- a maiden and allowance race--then was jumped into grade I competition, where she finished second in both the Mother Goose and Coaching Club American Oaks, She followed that with grade I victories in the Alabama and Gazelle Stakes prior to the Breeders' Cup.

"I think she was spectacular," Phipps said. "She had unbelievable ability, and her brain was extraordinary to be able to absorb what she did to go into those grade I races in such a short amount of time. She was uncanny and had an amazing ability to learn."

Phipps said he watched the Distaff from the Churchill Downs grandstand and then rushed to the track when he saw Pine Island's head bob in the run down the backstretch.

"I was with Dr. (Larry) Bramlage and Dr. (Mark) Cheney, and was at least very comforted by the fact I was talking with someone who knew exactly what we had to do. I never saw the filly on the ground until I saw a picture in the paper the next morning. And that wasn't a very good moment."

Phipps also said his daughter, Daisy Phipps, recently left her job with the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, where she was involved in television production, and will be active in running the family stable.

"I told her I would love to have a third of her time to help with the Phipps Stable, to look after some of the things I don't have time to do," he said. "She is moving to Lexington and will spend two-thirds of her time doing something else, but a third of her time will be focused on our horses."

Part of that focus, he said, will be to continue to "try and breed soundness into our horses. We try not to breed bad-kneed horses to bad-kneed horses. We look at all of that, and we also try to look at stallions that we think raced more drug-free than others."

[hackinaround]

Everytime a horse breaks down it is such an emotional drain on people in general. Here are these almost mythical creatures...so strong and so proud. In an instant picked out of mid flight by nothing more than a bad step. I think even more than the saddness of losing a life .. its hard on people because it reminds us how fragile every moment really is. In the last 30 years we have lost 3 great filliess almost 15 years apart each time. That means that at almost every large milestone in my life I watched a brilliant flame be snuffed out. So naturally we look for reasons , there has to be something to blame , someone at fault. As much as it breaks my heart I take some consoulation in knowing that they died doing what they lived for... May I be so lucky.

They will never die in our memories and maybe in some small way what they did and how they left us will help to make the lives of those to come better.

[jennywho]

Back to the toe grab issue, I was elated to hear that they do not allow toe grabs on the polytrack and similar surfaces and the trainers that did try to sneak them in ended up with very sore horses. Polytrack in/toe grabs out, what a victorious day that will be for the horses.

[YoungFilly]

I am thinking of things during this thanksgiving. Pine Island is one of them.

You poor sweet girl, I am thinking of you this thanksgiving. :sadsmile:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Island_(horse)