TB/Draft PMUs. What would you call them?

[Busymummy]

I purchased two PMU foals in 2002 from an organiztion in Canada. One is a Percheron/TB cross and the other is a Clyde/TB cross. For the last 4 years, I've always referred to them TB/draft crosses. I see a lot of these same horses coming from the PMU ranches in Canada being called "Canadian Sport Horses" or "Canadian Warmbloods" or just warmbloods. Would these titles be correct terms? I know that technically, their breeding would make them a warmblood, but they aren't registered with any WB or Sport horse registry and I don't have papers to prove their breeding. Just curious to what everyone else thinks.

On a side note brag....these two horses have turned out to be the nicest horses I've ever owned. I can't believe how lucky I got with them. :)

[ptownevt]

I think that Canadian Sport Horse refers to a breed organization, like American Warmblood. But wouldn't warmblood be correct technically since a warmblood is a cross between hot and cold, i.e., TB and draft?

Edited to add: Actually I just googled and Canadian Sport Horse and Canadian Warmbloods are both registries. I'd just go with warmblood or draft cross. Anyway you got two really nices horses and they got to live really nice lives. A win-win!

[Love My TB Consent]

I've heard quite frequently *American Warmblood* for this type of breeding although I am not sure if this is correct. I think of it this way, if the horse looks like a warmblood, call him a warmblood... if he carries after the TB side heavily, call it a tb cross, or draft cross if he follows after the draft side heavily. I always look a little cautiously when a horse that looks like a full blooded Percheron is called a warmblood (saw that the other day) for an example. I'd rather see draft cross so that I'm not thinking someone confused it for another breed.

You don't have to verify the breed to anyone (unless you are selling) so call the horse what you are most comfortable with.

[Curb Appeal]

I'd call it a Grade, but that's just me. I hate when people cross 2 breeds and try to pretend it's a whole new breed (Araloosa, Goldendoodle)

[appaloosalady]

Yikes! Don't ask over on the Sporthorse Breeding forum :eek: . There is a very long thread over there about exactly what you are asking. For the record, technically you would be correct calling your horses warmbloods (they are after all, hot blood x cold blood = warmblood), but expect to get flamed by people who think "warmblood" is a specific title for specific horses. A lot of people get pretty touchy about the subject :rolleyes: .

[BumbleBee]

it's a draft cross, they are not warmbloods that takes more than one generation

[War Admiral]

What Appaloosalady said.

Technically they ARE warmbloods for the same reasons as stated - hot blood + cold blood = warmblood. But expect the WB registry geeks to get bent wayyy out of shape if you call them that, b/c they just can't handle the fact their European whatevers just don't have a whole lot of special to them to justify the insane price gouging. ;) I'd just say "draft cross" myself, I guess...

[gray17htb]

I'd call it a Grade, but that's just me. I hate when people cross 2 breeds and try to pretend it's a whole new breed (Araloosa, Goldendoodle)

I agree. Drives me insane when people make up their own breed.

[appaloosalady]

I agree. Drives me insane when people make up their own breed.

"warmblood" is not a breed, it is a type

[EqTrainer]

Draft Cross.

[Busymummy]

Yup.....I agree. I'll just stick with draft cross. :yes: It always seemed presumptous to use the term warmblood to me. They look warmblood, but like curb appeal said, what they really are are grade horses. When I first got them as babies, people asked me what their breed was and I told them that they were a poor man's warmblood :D

[jilltx]

"warmblood" is not a breed, it is a type


absofreakinglutely :yes:

[War Admiral]

But the thing is, they are NOT grades, at least not as I understand the term. To me, a grade is the equivalent to a "mutt" - several breeds mixed in, pedigree unknown. That is not the case here. You KNOW you have a TB/Clyde cross and a Perch/TB cross. By the long-standing American definition of the term, that is a warmblood.

[vineyridge]

To equine snobs, TB cross sounds a lot better. If the TB was the stud, and he probably was, then they are definitely TB crosses.

Foxhunters love that breeding. You are to be commended for buying them, and I hope you have a lifetime of fun with your babies.

I believe Canadian Sport Horses is a registry just for PMU progeny, and it's sponsored by Wyeth/NAERIC

[War Admiral]

To equine snobs, TB cross sounds a lot better. If the TB was the stud, and he probably was, then they are definitely TB crosses.


Correct. ;) You could also call them Anglo-Clyde and Anglo-Perch.

[chism]

I've got one myself. I call him a draft cross. I consider anything else to be either pretentious or disengenuous. JMHO

[Curb Appeal]

I have no problem with calling it a warmblood if it is a draft/TB cross. A warmblood is a type, not a breed. What I take issue with is the people who create breed registries for them and start calling them "American Warmbloods" or "Canadian Warmbloods"

[flypony74]

I call my Percheron/TB a draft cross. And I agree.....these draftie crosses have got to be some of the nicest horses on the planet. I wouldn't trade my guy for ANY horse out there!

[Freebird!]

I think it would be very appropriate to call them both Draft crosses, but...what I want to know is where are the pictures??

[Busymummy]

I think it would be very appropriate to call them both Draft crosses, but...what I want to know is where are the pictures??

My computer savy is pretty limited. I'll try to get some up. My Perch Draft cross is on the website where I board at. His name is Paddy if you want to check him out.

http://www.foxgrovefarm.net/Forsaleorforlease.html

[merrygoround]

Paddy is a good looking guy, and with luck he won't change his frame by the time he's 6. Some of the Perch/Tb crosses start to look very drafty by 6, and some stay as balanced as your appears to be.

Some Draft crosses could pass a WB inspection with flying colors, others -no way.

WB is a type.

[J Swan]

Ahem.....

They are "Amish Warmbloods"

I thought everyone knew that!

I have 2 draft crosses. That's what they are - and it's pretty doggone obvious when you look at them. They're grade horses - it's not an insult.

But I like the term Amish Warmblood, too. Just for fun.

I knew a lady that had a perch/tb cross that looked like a million bucks - evented to Prelim, switched to dressage and last time I head - was competitive in the Grand Prix. That would be the exception of course - but it's a nice story.

[Busymummy]

Thanks to everyone who's replied. I uploaded some photos to share with you. I hope that this link works. Busydaddy had to help me with setting this account up. The Paddy my big guy and Kahlua the Clyde cross is the smaller one that my daughter is sitting on.

http://community.webshots.com/album/555332863RKcTIM

[Ibex]

They're cute!!!!!!

Most Canadian Warmbloods I've been exposed to had European Warmblood and TB roots. Don't know about the CSH registry (and I thought I heard something about it disapearing anyways...)

[MistyBlue]

Very handsome boys you have there Busymummy!

I also call draft crosses a draft cross. There's nothing "wrong" with a draft cross...many of them make fabulous athletes in different disciplines. The talent lies with each horse...not it's papers.
However I do have to respectively disagree with War Admiral on a people owning registered horses of different WB registries being anal about those registries and not liking draft crosses being called warmbloods because they fear their animals' worths will go down. The various WB registries have to prove their animals qualify for that registration and they are the results of hundreds of years of selective breeding *and* testing. They consistently provide the equine world with athletic, correct horses. (not 100% great horses, no breed or registry has a 100% success rate) A very large percentage of their babies come out exactly as expected and perform well when grown. The same cannot be said for first or second generation draft crosses. Some come out fabulous, some come out as great all around family type mounts and some come out as not really cut out to do much of anything. It's much more of a crapshoot...and the prices paid on registered european WB's are set by generations of proven products. However...I do think many registered WBs are drastically overpriced just for the fact that they have those papers...but the market bears those prices. Go figure...
But a registered WB isn't a status symbol...only to those who have low self esteem who refer to their registered WB's as some sort of status symbol. A WB is just a registry that has a very high success rate from generations upon generations of very hard work tweaking types for specific performances.

[La Gringa]

I purchased two PMU foals in 2002 from an organiztion in Canada. One is a Percheron/TB cross and the other is a Clyde/TB cross. For the last 4 years, I've always referred to them TB/draft crosses. I see a lot of these same horses coming from the PMU ranches in Canada being called "Canadian Sport Horses" or "Canadian Warmbloods" or just warmbloods. Would these titles be correct terms? I know that technically, their breeding would make them a warmblood, but they aren't registered with any WB or Sport horse registry and I don't have papers to prove their breeding. Just curious to what everyone else thinks.

On a side note brag....these two horses have turned out to be the nicest horses I've ever owned. I can't believe how lucky I got with them. :)

A lot of people are riding draft crosses now, and just call them what they are Draft crosses. I ride a full draft, and I love her. Nothing wrong with it. If you are worried about an official name, then I am sure there is a WB either Canadian or American you could call them. There are a lot of Canadian WB's that I see that are great horses. No problem in calling them that.

Congrats on your horses! They are gorgeous! I love their faces.

[Cherry]

I've heard Thoroughbred/Percherons crosses referred to as "Thorcherons"! :yes: :lol: There may even be a registry for them....

Regardless, if both parents are registered the resulting foal is a "crossbred". If only one parent is registered the resulting foal is a "halfbred". I so like the term crossbred--it makes the horse sound legitimate.... ;) As opposed to illegitimate..... :lol:

[War Admiral]

MistyBlue, I hear where you're coming from and I don't disagree. What I do dislike is that according to the registry geeks, it's not a warmblood UNLESS it is registered/approved.

Here in the USA, that just ain't the case. Hot blood + cold blood = warmblood. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, whether the Germans like it or not. ;)

[nightsong]

Draft cross. "Warmblood" is misleading, if nothing else. If you want to be more specific, you could do "TB cross", "Percheron cross", "Clydesdale cross" or even say just what you told US in your introduction, which is the best: "Percheron/TB cross" and "Clydesdale/TB cross", or for those who don't understand the terminology, "Thoroughbred and Percheron". No danger of being misunderstood, and it's as correct as you can get!!!

[BumbleBee]

Canadian Sport Horse and Canadian Warmblood DO NOT contain draft crosses all sires/dambs are inspected and only approved horses can have their get registered as such. Unless the TB parent was approved you just have a cross.

There are NO PMU in the registries however if they are inspected and approved THEIR GET can be registered.

Much blood in the above registries are of oldenburg/trak/hano .... decent.

Sport type or warmblood type is honest and exceptable depending on how the draft cross is built.

I have frequently seen them listed as Crossbreds.

[La Gringa]

MistyBlue, I hear where you're coming from and I don't disagree. What I do dislike is that according to the registry geeks, it's not a warmblood UNLESS it is registered/approved.

Here in the USA, that just ain't the case. Hot blood + cold blood = warmblood. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, whether the Germans like it or not. ;)

I agree with that, but that will get you in hot water with the WB snobs out there. I think it's silly. All of the WB's started with these crosses. That's how they got the name WARM blood.

I love draft crosses. I love their minds, most of them are rock solid citizens.

[Busymummy]

I love draft crosses. I love their minds, most of them are rock solid citizens.

Isn't that the truth! :yes:

[Pirateer]

I've heard the tb/clyde crosses called "Thoroughdales" Blech.

I'd call them exactly what they are. While the hot x cold might equal warm, there are a ton of those "warmbloods" who are NOT built like "WBs"- but like Drafts....on a diet. Not the same thing.

[fullmoon fever]

Unless it has papers and/or you are certain it is ONE breed (i.e. TB w/o papers), the standard term is "grade".

[DraftHorsePower]

I have a Belgian/Appy that I just refer to as a draft cross...

My new guy though is Dutch/Shire out of Alla'Czar and is much more warmblood looking... and is registered as an American Warmblood.

So I'm confusing myself. What would be proper if you have a warmblood/draft... is it like a lukewarmblood? :winkgrin:

My car's license plate still says DraftHP... I loff my drafties.. :)

[poltroon]

What Appaloosalady said.

Technically they ARE warmbloods for the same reasons as stated - hot blood + cold blood = warmblood. But expect the WB registry geeks to get bent wayyy out of shape if you call them that, b/c they just can't handle the fact their European whatevers just don't have a whole lot of special to them to justify the insane price gouging. ;) I'd just say "draft cross" myself, I guess...

Well, all horses' blood is the same temperature.

By your definition, a Quarter Horse or a Morgan or a Welsh Cob are also "warmbloods."

European warmbloods weren't built with crosses of TB to heavy draft but TB to carriage horse. It is its own distinct type now, just as stock breeds carry their own distinct type.

Call them what they are - draft/TB crosses - which is a perfectly nice cross and distinct from a warmblood. There are even people who would prefer them to a warmblood.

[vanjumper]

I believe Canadian Sport Horses is a registry just for PMU progeny, and it's sponsored by Wyeth/NAERIC

Um, no. And a lot of breeders would be really offended to know people thought that. The PMU "registry" is referred to as NAERIC.

CSH actually has some extremely nice animals.

[appaloosalady]

Well, all horses' blood is the same temperature.

By your definition, a Quarter Horse or a Morgan or a Welsh Cob are also "warmbloods."

European warmbloods weren't built with crosses of TB to heavy draft but TB to carriage horse. It is its own distinct type now, just as stock breeds carry their own distinct type.

Call them what they are - draft/TB crosses - which is a perfectly nice cross and distinct from a warmblood. There are even people who would prefer them to a warmblood.

That is my exact point - they aren't "hot blooded" aka TB or Arabian and they aren't "cold blooded" aka draft, so they are warmblooded. Personally, I call mine a draft cross, I just think it is funny to see how fast people get nuts because of the sacred term "warmblood" being used on an animal that isn't an "accepted" breed. By the way, there is draft blood in the history of European warmbloods - where do you think carriage horses came from?

[nightsong]

My new guy ... is registered as an American Warmblood.


I don't think "American Warmblood" carries much more weight than "Amish Warmblood" :winkgrin: .

[Coyoteco]

If I asked someone what kind of horse he has and he answers "grade", I don't feel that he's answered my question - only told me that his horse doesn't have registration papers. The horse could be Arabian, qh, or welsh pony. It simply provides no information. I don't see why anyone would say "grade" to describe a tb/draft cross - it just makes no sense to me to describe it that way. You might as well say "equine".
If the warmblood people think that you are stepping on their horses by calling yours a warmblood, you can consider that. I wouldn't leave out the "tb" when I said cross either - why emphasize the draft over the tb? I don't understand saying "draft cross" over "tb cross" for your horses. Why would one leave out tb? when he said draft cross?
It is an interesting question if only to see people's answers.
A teenager came to my place last week and I asked her what kind of horses she has. She said one was a "tb/draft" cross. That gave me information. Had she said "grade" I would have been annoyed when I found out it was a known cross. I don't particularly like vague, non-informative answers when I'm trying to have a conversation - it sounds evasive. I guess, in that light, I wouldn't particularly like the answer "warmblood" either - but at least it does give some information.

[War Admiral]

By your definition, a Quarter Horse or a Morgan or a Welsh Cob are also "warmbloods."

Anything w/ proven Arab or TB blood, regardless what it is crossed with = warmblood. So, it depends on the QH: foundation stock=coldblood; Appendix and latter-day QH w/ documented TB crossed in = warmblood.

Therefore, yep, Morgans, STBs and ASBs = warmbloods.

[nightsong]

By your definition, a Quarter Horse or a Morgan or a Welsh Cob are also "warmbloods."



That definition being hot + cold = warm. Well, the three breeds you mention are NOT Thoroughbred/Arabian-with-draft crosses. They are distinct types, bred in a specific area for generations (in the casae of the second two, for hundreds of years). They are their own selves, NOT Thoroughbred/draft crosses. As are European warmbloods, which are refinements of coach horses (not carriage horses, which are much finer-boned). People who say hot + cold = warm are referring to water faucets, NOT horse breeding.

[War Admiral]

People who say hot + cold = warm are referring to water faucets, NOT horse breeding.

Sorry, but that has just never been true in this country, EVER, not for hundreds of years. Until the krauts moved in for the kill.

As stated previously: a "grade" is a horse of unknown pedigree. A "cold-blooded" horse is a horse known to have NO TB or Arab blood. A "warmblood" is a horse of known, identifiable TB or Arab blood crossed with something warm-blooded OR cold-blooded.

Don't let the Europeans sway you on this. They are NOT correct.

[Busymummy]

I did a little internet surfing and discovered that NAERIC calls their TB/Draft crosses CanAm Sport horses. There's even a website for them. http://www.canamsporthorses.com/


I've never heard of them, but some of the horses on saw in the pictures were pretty nice. I also looked on the Canadian Sport horse registry. I didn't see anything about NAERIC being involved, but I did read the criteria for registering your horse there. My understanding was that a horse would be accepted into that registry based on size, conformation and movement and/or breed. I didn't see any requirement for the animal to be registered or it's bloodlines proven.

I also agree that I prefer draft cross to grade. It's just gives you a little more information on the horse.

[sunnycher]

I have 3 crosses - 2 are from the same farm - Shire sires (full brothers) and same dam (TB/appy cross). They are very different from each other, even though they are 3/4 brother and sister. I ride may mary who is 7 alot, event at novice (school training), fox hunted her, show jump and lots of trail. She is 16 hh and cute as a button.

Her brother is bigger - 16'3" hh, 5 y.o. and much slower to develop. He can jump the moon, has free jumped over 4', but needs more flat and dressage to strengthen hind end, and be more balanced. He has the "go" of an arab, seriously, people are always supprised by his "forward" and stamina, it's amazing. I am in the process of selling him now, he will make an amazing foxhunter.

The 3rd one is completely different. He is a 2 y.o PMU baby. 3/4 TB, 1/4 Percheron, bright chestnut with blaze and 3 high socks. Beautiful, and very fancy mover. Looks like a "real" warmblood! He is the most quiet of all.

Then I have a OTTB mare - 5 y.o - who I LOVE, nothing beats a good TB.

So the first two I call Draft Crosses, the baby is a 3/4 bred (then I say TB/Perch), and the last is an OTTB.

Such fun, I really love the draft crosses, they are amazing horses.

Good luck!!! Just go play and have fun!!

[chism]

Coyoteco - I have to agree with you on that. I think of grade as being unknown parentage...kind of like when people say their mixed breed dog is a "heinz 57" instead of a labrador/shepherd cross. If you know your horse's breeding then it's nice to share that info when people ask.
I think the whole "warmblood" thing is pretty funny. I can pretty much agree with a little bit of everyone's arguments. I personally think it's ridiculous to call your draft cross an American Warmblood, but to each his own. I also find it highly humorous that the snotty warmblood types (just a small percentage of warmblood owners BTW) take so much offense to it.

FWIW - I love my draft cross (PMU - Perch/TB/Paint) and wouldn't trade him for 10 fancy european warmbloods.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Sorry, but that has just never been true in this country, EVER, not for hundreds of years. Until the krauts moved in for the kill.

As stated previously: a "grade" is a horse of unknown pedigree. A "cold-blooded" horse is a horse known to have NO TB or Arab blood. A "warmblood" is a horse of known, identifiable TB or Arab blood crossed with something warm-blooded OR cold-blooded.

Don't let the Europeans sway you on this. They are NOT correct.

I am incredibly offended by your word choice here. Additionally, I fully disagree with your opinion (and that is what we are discussing on this thread-opinions), though I won't attempt to change your mind as I would rather not get into with people like you. Are you not aware that there are several Germans on this board? Does it not bother you to use a word like "kraut" in such a blatantly offensive way? You should consider biting your tongue.
In regards to the OP's question:
When I was still in the states, we met a mare that was doing the A/A's with a novice adult rider. While she looked more like a gelding (ha), she was absolutely stunning. My trainer asked her what the horse's breeding was, and she said shire/TBx. The draft crosses are becoming nicer and nicer these days, and are often very, very amatuer friendly. In my mind, there's nothing more important than safety and reliability for most of us in this sport, and if a draft cross is the most suitable for you as a rider, then be proud that you've found a partner that fits you well. So many of us will never find the perfect match because we've ruled out "non-traditional" breeds... Your guys are adorable!

[TouchstoneAcres]

I have often heard the TB/Percheron called "Thorcheron." I guess you have a "Thorodale" too but I just made that one up now. Draft cross fits or TB /draft or name both breeds. I agree they make good fox hunters, often.

[Wellspotted]

Until fairly recently in my life a TB cross was called a half-bred (or "halfbred"). It seemed to be assumed that the "half" referred to was half Thoroughbred and half whatever else.

I agree with the other posters who say yours are technically not warmbloods, and with the posters who don't like indiscriminate development of new "breeds" from crosses.

If it were me I'd go with the old classic term "half-bred" and, if people take exception to that as sounding too much like "half-breed" or "half-blood," then I'd call it a cob. I've seen lots of cobs on UK and Irish websites and they're often draft x something else. I like them. And "cob" is a lot easier and quicker than "draft-cross"! :D

I will just add--although I'm in sympathy with FrenchFry about War Admiral's recent post--that War Admiral is wrong about Quarter Horses from foundation stock being coldblooded. Seeing as how Quarter Horse "foundation stock" is in a large part Thoroughbred (and therefore from Arabian), Quarter Horses cannot be cold-blooded!

[gray17htb]

"warmblood" is not a breed, it is a type

But, Araloosa, Goldendoodle are MADE up breeds , that's what I was refering too. Walkaloosa is also annoying. You don't just start mixing breeds and advertise your own made up version. Lets put this on the Dressage and breeding forums for some real entertainment:yes:

[horsepix76]

I grew up on a farm breeding Percheron/TB crosses. We call them Percheron Sporthorses. http://www.panacheacres.com

[vineyridge]

Oops. Apologies to the Canadians. For some reason I thought NAERIC had come up with a fancy name and registry for their "residual" product. I just didn't/don't know what it was and posted an ignorant canard.

[Drive NJ]

Way back when I was in 4H - and I'm not saying when that was there were quite a few thorobred/percheron crosses coming out of Canada. They were originally called Thorocherons :eek: , but it never took. Most of us are calling our guys (we have Perch/Tbd and Perch/QH) Draft crosses proudly and loving it.

NAERIC is the group that was registering PMU babies, but they have to be part of the industry to register there. So many of the farms are no longer PMU but still breeding some horses. These horses aren't eligible for NAERIC.

What drives me nuts is when you go to Dreamhorse or Equine.com or the like you find listings for 47 "different" types of mustangs - many with no-one listed on the site, but all the various draft crosses are lumped into one group. While I'd like to have an overview draft cross selection... wouldn't it be nice to be able to look for Belgian/QH crosses or Shire/Tbd crosses or Perch/Morgan crosses if you wanted? There really aren't that many variations of the main. But apparently neither site is receptive as its been suggested several times.

[perpetual_novice]

I don't know for certain what one would call them but my full draft (grade percheron) gelding thinks he is called, "Who's a pretty boy, then?"

If one wants to really get into the warmblood debate, could you not call them full blooded tepidbreds?

But seriously, I would call them draft crosses and be proud of them. I bet they are great horses.

[SportsfieldEventer]

They are CanAm Sport Horses. We have a bunch and most of them are seriously fancy and they are all super sweet. A lot of ours are by the same stallion but don't really look anything alike. You can see pictures of almost all of them at www.virginiafieldhunters.com.

[MsM]

Regardless of the technicalities of what could be considered a "warmblood" it seems the point is communicating information about the horses background. If you go by the "Water Temperature Theory", then any horse that is not a full draft, TB, or Arabian is a warmblood! This makes the term so general as to be useless. (Of course if you go by the uber-snooty DQ definition, it applies only to horses belonging to certain European Registries which cost six figures and have been selected by BNTs with accents!:winkgrin: )
I think the difficulty with the warmblood term began when people started using it for shorthand for a horse registered with one of the European-origin "Warmblood" registries whose ancestors have been purpose-bred for sport and inspected and culled for generations. Although I had read about the term applied to other horses before, I never heard it used to describe a horse's breeding until European Warmbloods became popular in the USA. Then people seemed to use it to apply to various crossbreds to give them added appeal, even though they may not have any planned sport horse breeding behind them.
I have always simply described my horse's breeding (or as much as I knew of it!) to anyone who was interested. I have had a grade TB and a Morgan/QH cross as well as some registered horses. So if people want to know about your horses and you know their breeding, just tell them! It is WAY more informative than "warmblood" however you interpret that term. :)

[TouchstoneAcres]

MsM, yes with a really broad definition even Lipizzans are warmbloods despite being over 400 years old. They aren't typically thought of as WBs though.

[hundredacres]

Geez...OP you have a lot of choices here!

So whats it gonna be? Are you going for the the sophisticated sounding, "Warmblood", the practical but unpretentious, "Draft Cross" or the exotic sounding "CanAm Sporthorse"?

Well?

Your boys are adorable...no matter what they are called. Oh, you can always call them "PMU Babies". ;) I think there is a bit of honor in that name...at least in my world.

[Goodyfourshoes!]

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[Astraled]

A lot of ours are by the same stallion but don't really look anything alike.

That is not a plus. Wildly inconsistent is not a trait anyone looks for in a sire.



I'm with Coyoteco on the grade thing. A grade horse is unpapered. There is nothing implied to me about the breeding if a horse is called grade.

[Goodyfourshoes!]

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[DraftHorsePower]

I don't think "American Warmblood" carries much more weight than "Amish Warmblood" :winkgrin: .

So? I like "American Warmbloods" (even if the registry is a bunch of phooey to some) AKA my drafties, better than any of the "real" warmbloods anyway! ;)

[egontoast]

They are draft crosses or TB crosses.

As someone mentioned, there are registries for Canadian warmbloods and Canadian Sport Horses so you contribute to confusion if you use those names. I was searching for the Canadian Sport Horse registry one day and a site came up that had nothing to do with the registry but was using the same name. It was a PMU farm.

As far as I know , there is no registry called 'CanAm Sporthorses'. It is a name coined by a PMU breeder, I believe, but someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[Madeline]

Back in the dark ages before there were Warmbloods (note the capitalization), and TB's were in style, these horses were called half-breds.

I think that today they could be called warmbloods (no cap), unless you would like to irritate the Warmblood breeders and importers. In that case you would call them Warmbloods...

[Busymummy]

I'll stick with draft crosses unless another official term is dedicated and recognized with them. Although I do think that CanAm Sport Horse sounds pretty cool too :D

SportsfieldEventer: Your animals are beautiful!

The best thing about my horses it that I know that I saved them from going to slaughter. They were given the chance to turn into nice horses and be loved and I just got lucky with how nice they turned out. I know that there's a stigma about PMUs because they are not bred to be nice sport horses with perfect conformation and movement. I would just rather pay money to save a horses life before paying big bucks for a horse that doesn't need me.

I hope that I didn't offend any warmblood owners. I wasn't looking to stir the pot, but only get clarification on what is the correct term for them.

[ptownevt]

Who would have guessed that this would be such a hot topic? :eek:

[vineyridge]

War Admiral aced it. They are Anglo-Perch and Anglo-Clyde.

[Drive NJ]

OK... just a question. If the use of the term Warmblood for something so lowly as a draft cross is such a bad thing because we should all know Warmblood = 100s if not 1000s of years of specific breeding of coach horses (aka draft crosses) to Tbds etc. . .

Why is it that Warmblood people refer to their horses as Warmbloods and not Rheinfeld Schwartz Geshuntheit or all the other names. If you want to emphasize the breeding of the animals why not use the proper breed name and not a generic Warmblood?

If Holsteiner, Hannovarian, Westphalian, etc can all be lumped together as Warmblood how different is their breeding and do we need all the various breed names.

A Morgan is a Morgan, a Saddlebred is a Saddlebred... opps, seems there's been a lot of morphing there too... nevermind :lol: :lol: :lol:

Said with tongue firmly in cheek and not intending to offend anyone - much.

[carolprudm]

MistyBlue, I hear where you're coming from and I don't disagree. What I do dislike is that according to the registry geeks, it's not a warmblood UNLESS it is registered/approved.

Here in the USA, that just ain't the case. Hot blood + cold blood = warmblood. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, whether the Germans like it or not. ;)
Yup, the Europeans didn't invent the term, they adopted it and are now trying to claim exclusive rights to it.

[egontoast]

Hmm, well, again , since there are warmblood registries, you create confusion if you call a draft cross a warmblood.

Why would you call it a warmblood? It's a draft cross. What is the problem with saying so? It's accurate and it's descriptive. Do you have some problem with draft crosses?

As far as saying you shouldn't refer to a warmblood as a warmblood, but call it by it's specific registry, it's no different than calling a draft horse a draft horse instead of a Clyde or a Belgian. It's a type.

Draft cross describes a type, draft describes a type, warmblood describes a type. If you don't like that than you are the one with the problem.

[MistyBlue]

There's that side of the argument too Egon.
I've never understood calling them warmbloods or Warmbloods. Nobody with a draft says, "I have a cold blood." And nobody with a TB or Arab says, "Oh, he's a hot blood." To me...and maybe I'm odd (okay, I'm odd) but that's the same as a raccoon breeder saying, "Oh, they're Nocturnals."
Why differentiate by "blood type?" Before the European WB's started flooding our shows, markets, etc here...nobody referred to the blood temperature of any horse except in Pony Club or 4H learning about types.
It seems that the majority of folks have the opinion that a WB registry horse is *only* a fancy-shmancy, imported animal that has to cost a minimum of high 5 figures and is only owned by pretentious snobs and that the folks who own them consider all draft cross horses to be crappy. No other breed claims blood temps...Morgans aren't referred to as warmbloods nor are most other "cold+hot=warm" horses. If the horse is a cross...it's a cross. Why need a blood temperature to define it? A good horse is a good horse regardless of whether it's papered or not, tattooed or not, branded on it's hip, arse or neck. Why would the owners feel a need to make a new "category" for their animals?
The 3 best horses I've ever owned/showed/ridden were grades. One was obviously an App grade because those are hard to miss (the original MistyBlue) and one was a crapshoot of what was in there and the last was 1/2 TB and 1/2 Morgan go figure. Right now I own a Dutch and an APHA. I've never called her a Warmblood out loud...if people ask I say, "She's Dutch." People don't ask what the APHA is since he's not solid, so pretty obvious. Both are nice horses...neither would I consider stellar. The mare (Dutch) was pretty talented in her day as a dressage horse...but if she had been uber-talented she'd have been shown higher than 3rd. (she knows some 4th moves...but isn't what I'd call great in them) The APHA is a good boy...safe and sound. Neither were purchased for their breed...
My dream horse is probably an App Sport Horse. (Wappaloosas come to mind) Possibly even a POA since I'm short. Not everyone who has a european registry horse finds them the cat's meow or thinks they're better than everything else. I would never pay 6 figures for a horse because it was a WB. I'd buy for ability and I couldn't give a rat's patootie what it was...I'd be just as happy paying $50k for a fabulously talented grade or draft cross as I would for the same in a WB or whatever the breed du jour is.

[egontoast]

Nobody with a draft says, "I have a cold blood."

No, but they often say they own a draft.

I have a trak/hano cross. Why would it be more chi chi for me to call him a wb? It's not. WB is descriptive of a type just as draft is descriptive of a type and draft cross is descriptive of a type.

[J Swan]

Once I was talking about my horse (the only one I owned at the time). A fellow boarder (with more money than sense) was nearby listening to me. She and her daughter had been shopping for a horse but they could not find one that was "perfect". They really were looking for a "perfect" horse.

So I tell the person I'm speaking with that the horse is a Belgian/Thoroughbred cross since she had asked what the cross was.

The clueless lady piped up and said - Oh I didn't know he was a "Belgian Thoroughbred" - and then proceeded to offer me a large sum for him (more than he was worth at the time).

When she thought he was a mutt - he was a cheapo horse she wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

When she misunderstood and thought he was some fancy WB from Belgium - he was something she had to have.

All because of a "name"

(I didn't sell her my horse - I am told that is the sign of a true amateur - to refuse a good offer)




No, but they often say they own a draft.

I have a trak/hano cross. Why would it be more chi chi for me to call him a wb? It's not. WB is descriptive of a type just as draft is descriptive of a type and draft cross is descriptive of a type.

[La Gringa]

It is so interesting how people are so "funny" about names.
Often I get a peculiar look when I tell people my mare is Belgian Warmblood. People say Belgian? Isn't that a Draft horse? There are a lot of people that don't know the difference between the breeds, especially the "lesser known" ones.

Her pedigree is just as good as any Dutch WB, Branco was Dutch Bred, but just because she's a registered BWP, some people have no clue.

[Wellspotted]

Well, now having read all these posts I am completely confused!
The term "warmblood" or "Warmblood" has come along fairly recently in my life with horses; as I said in an earlier post, I remember when TB crosses were called half-breds.
But this is what I have gathered in recent years:
A Belgian Warmblood is a specific breed, with a breed registry. So is a Swedish Warmblood and a Dutch Warmblood.
A Hanoverian is a specific breed, with a registry. So is a Trakehner and a Holsteiner.
Hanoverians, Trakehners, and Holsteiners are not Warmbloods.
A warmblood is a cross between a Hanoverian/Trakehner/Holsteiner and a TB (or an Arabian?).
I'm just using these six breed names for examples; I'm well aware that they are only a few of many breeds.
Have I got this right? Or am I wrong?
And by the way, I wonder why Irish Sport Horses aren't called Irish Warmbloods.
For that matter, why aren't Cleveland Bay x Thoroughbreds called English Warmbloods?
Would a Connemara-TB cross be an Irish warmblood? How about a Welsh-TB cross?
If I crossed an Appaloosa with a TB, what would I get? An Appabred? A Thoroughloosa? A Thoroughly warmblood?
Honestly, this post did start out as a serious request for clarification. But then I started having fun ... :D

[fullmoon fever]

If I crossed an Appaloosa with a TB, what would I get? An Appabred? A Thoroughloosa? A Thoroughly warmblood?

Depending on the dam and sire, you would get a lovely Appaloosa. The ApHC still allows outcrossing to registered TBs. (That cross is what I based my Appaloosa sporthorse breeding program on.) ;)

[ESG]

it's a draft cross, they are not warmbloods that takes more than one generation

Yep. :yes: Why call a spade a shovel?

I hate it when sellers advertise a horse as a "warmblood", when it's a draft cross, especially when it's a draft cross I'm after. All things considered (price, talent, temperament, athleticism), many of the draft crosses I've seen are actually superior to warmbloods.

JMO. :cool:

[ESG]

But the thing is, they are NOT grades, at least not as I understand the term.

Yes, they are. "Grade" refers only to the fact that the horse is unregistered, not that the breeding is unknown.

To me, a grade is the equivalent to a "mutt" - several breeds mixed in, pedigree unknown. That is not the case here. You KNOW you have a TB/Clyde cross and a Perch/TB cross. By the long-standing American definition of the term, that is a warmblood.

But since you have no papers on these horses to prove parentage, they are grade draft crosses. Most definitely not warmbloods.

JMO. :cool:

[ESG]

I don't think "American Warmblood" carries much more weight than "Amish Warmblood" :winkgrin: .

Ditto. In fact, "Amish Warmblood might carry more", as it's more memorable. :D

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Yep. :yes: Why call a spade a shovel?

I hate it when sellers advertise a horse as a "warmblood", when it's a draft cross, especially when it's a draft cross I'm after. All things considered (price, talent, temperament, athleticism), many of the draft crosses I've seen are actually superior to warmbloods.

JMO. :cool:

And, that, in my opinion, is the problem. With the hundreds of years of selective breeding Warmblood registries (European or otherwise) have gone through, when a seller is advertising their Clyde/TB/QH cross as a Warmblood, it becomes misleading to potential buyers. It makes for a lot of weeding through ads for a lot of people (myself included) when looking through ads and the like. Example- I was looking for a large bodied horse with athletic ability and resellability if the time ever came that I would need to be horseless. I settled on a Warmblood because, let's face it (regardless of how people feel about Euro-registries), they are the most marketable horses in the H/J industry right now and it makes selling a LOT easier. I quickly got annoyed with all of the draft crosses (and poor draft crosses, not the fancy beasts owned by the OP) marketed as warmbloods.
Rule of thumb in Warmblood breeding is to breed like to like with minor structural differences to improve type and way of going. That is why many of the Euro-registries have bred so many successful horses- the selective breeding of like to like. Perhaps a TB here and there to refine, or a longer neck there to make a prettier picture. This is not to say a draft cross has never made a successful show horse- but the numbers in FEI level competition speak for themselves. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when breeding draft crosses, it's often a crap-shoot what you get. Sometimes you produce a grogeous, well put together animal that carries itself nicely (like the OP's horses)- but sometimes you get the tank of a body from the draft with the big homely head and the tiny feet and stick legs of the TB or QH, which makes the thing look like it was assembled by a committee in addition to creating some not-so-desirable conformation faults. Right at the moment, there is not enough selective breeding of draft crosses and the label "Warmblood" (while literally meaning hot+cold) has a buyer expecting something else. There are plenty of people in the market for draft crosses- I would like to own one when I am in the financial position to do so, but right now, I am content with the fact that I was able to lease my warmblood out within weeks to a great show home before I came to Europe.

[ESG]

This is not to say a draft cross has never made a successful show horse- but the numbers in FEI level competition speak for themselves.

Um, gee - did you ever stop to think that "the numbers" might be attributed to the number of warmbloods in existence, versus the number of draft crosses that survive slaughter to make it to competition? :rolleyes:

If this is going to turn into a "my warmblood is better than your draft cross" p!$$!ing contest, I'm leaving now. :dead:

[Canadian Starz]

We have a Mennonite Community up here called Wallenstein in Cannuck Land that breeds some pretty nice Draft Crosses. We have a Dutch Warmblood Stallion, and one of our good friends has just told us that he has now purchased a "Wallensteiner", that he will join us in Dressage with next season.:winkgrin: Lovely animal he has purchased, :yes: and we will certainly be pleased to have him join us in the ring! :cool:
There are a lot of very elegant and good moving 1/2 Draft, and PMU animals etc. out there just waiting for their chance to show you their capabilities etc.
Who cares what they are called......Just do the best with what you have, and enjoy each other! Those ribbons will look good on whatever you are riding! :yes:

[mayhew]

I believe Canadian Sport Horses is a registry just for PMU progeny, and it's sponsored by Wyeth/NAERIC


Good Lord, no!

http://www.c-s-h-a.org/

I like draft crosses. I like PMU rescues. But they are not the same thing as the Canadian Sport Horse.

[caffeinated]

I refer to mine as a Saskatchewan Warmblood, just for kicks. But when I'm not trying to make a joke, he's a "thoroughbred cross" if someone asks. If he was 50% draft, I might call him a draft cross, but since he's majority TB I think TBx is more accurate.

Of course, occasionally I get the brilliant sort who says, "that's impossible. It can't be a thoroughbred AND a cross, because thoroughbred means purebred!"

I believe this type of horse *can* be considered a warmblood... when it is graded, inspected, and accepted into a WB registry, that is. *grin*

ETA- someone said something about these horses being "grade" because they're unregistered and parentage can't be proven, however many of the producers of these horses DO keep parentage records and can be registered in some registries. Just wanted to mention that- just because a horse comes from a PMU farm does not mean its breeding is "unknown" :)

[J Swan]

Jiminy Christmas - who cares.

You buy the horse that suits you, and is capable of doing the job you want it to do. You like the horse, the horse likes you, you go off and do whatever you want. Trail ride, eventing, foxhunting, driving....whatever. The only important thing is that it is capable of peforming the tasks required of it.

Who cares if it has a brand on its ass. If you can't ride it, can't train it, and the horse doesn't have the ability to perform at the level you require - then I'd say you wasted a lot of money for a brand. Same goes for a grade horse.

The biggest thing that limits a horse is the human riding it, training it or judging it.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Um, gee - did you ever stop to think that "the numbers" might be attributed to the number of warmbloods in existence, versus the number of draft crosses that survive slaughter to make it to competition? :rolleyes:

If this is going to turn into a "my warmblood is better than your draft cross" p!$$!ing contest, I'm leaving now. :dead:

Perhaps you still have a bone to grind with me regarding 3eme's thread a while back, but I don't know why you're jumping all over me for no reason. Where in my post did I say my horse was superior to yours? My post says the exact same thing as yours, reversed. When I was looking for a WB and NOT a draft cross, I got sick of reading through the DX ads... ??? I would comment on your slaughter remark, though it is clear to me we don't have the same views on the issue, and the topic is much like abortion to me these days- why bother. And I would have to say, due to sheer numbers (in this country at least), the TB should be on top of every discipline out there- not WBs. That has to do with more than their volume and availability (believe it or not, hundreds of years of selective breeding for one purpose can actually produce superior horses if what you want is a sport horse. Not always, but it's a safe assumption to make). Also, earlier in the thread I posted about a GORGEOUS draft-x mare that I loved in Culpeper. I have no problems with a well-put together animal- it could be a mule! But so many of these draft crosses are a result of breeding vastly different types and the result is a poorly conformed animal with little use to me in the type of riding in which I participate. I must say, however, that some of the draft crosses I've seen recently have been absolutely stunning and just what I look for in a horse. I am tall and require a large barrell to take up all of my leg- plus I'm kind of getting sick of the "dumb-blood" attitude my guy gives me at times, and am not the type of person that enjoys a hot ride (having dealt with that for years with my eq horse- actually still dealing with it now in his retirement). I think in the (not so near) future, I would love to own a draft cross as you can get a great deal of desirable traits from them- size, strength, willingness, quietness... But the problem is and always will be with this type of cross: When breeding like to unlike, the chances that the foal will inheirit the undesirable traits of either sire or dam are much greater. Again, this is why I am very happy to see some draft-x breeders really working at improving the type. My recent favorite is DraftHorsePower's new Alla'Zar/Shire gelding- he is AWESOME looking! And, IMHO, she's got the best of both worlds ;c).
Edited to add for the OP:
If I had two draft crosses that looked like yours, I would be proud to say that's what they are. They give a good name to the type and I wish you much luck with them as they grow and come into themselves in whatever discipline you are pursuing.

[Kelly in NJ]

Um, gee - did you ever stop to think that "the numbers" might be attributed to the number of warmbloods in existence, versus the number of draft crosses that survive slaughter to make it to competition? :rolleyes:

If this is going to turn into a "my warmblood is better than your draft cross" p!$$!ing contest, I'm leaving now. :dead:

No pi**ing contest here, but I think that if you counted up all of the draft crosses and grade horses in the USA/Canada, that number would be WAY WAY MORE than the number of registered European-bloodline based warmbloods in the USA/Canada (presumably the ones competing at FEI referred to by FrenchFry), thus the reason that the WBs are more expensive. Harder to come by=costs more. Supply and demand. If there were a ton of European warmbloods just sitting around, they wouldn't be so pricey. That's just not even related to skill or talent. That's just availability.

BTW, reading the country of origin and breed for horses in the 100+ page program for Dressage at Devon, year after year, very few of the horses are not registered with one of the European warmblood registries. FWIW. Not saying better or worse, but that's just how it is. And it's that way for pretty much every program at pretty much every big show. Not saying why, just saying that it is.

Look, I love my mutt dog, but I'm sure that some German Shepard would be a better police dog, or some Sheltie is a better agility dog than him. It's just them doing what they are selectively bred for generations to do. I'm sure there are some great police or agility mutt dogs, maybe some of the best. But if you want to buy one dog, and have a really good chance at being really competietve at agility, I think that you'd buy one with the family history of doing that consistently and take your chances that way. I just bought my dog because he's a good pet and I love him. I would have done something different if I was trying to go to the Westminster Dog Show or train an attack dog. I think that is what upper-level/FEI dressage people do, and then they get flamed by the non-WB people for doing it. They are just picking what gives them what they feel is the best competitive chance based on in-bred talent and proven bloodline performance history, same as with the dog people. Although, I do know of a damn good attack Jack Russell. Would eat a German Shepard alive, really.

Noone (well, not me at least) looks at non-WB horses as not being "good enough", but it is just that out of 100 random European warmbloods and 100 draft-PMU horses, I think that your chances of getting an FEI horse out of the warmblood group is higher. JMO. Just like out of 100 mutt dogs and 100 German Shepards, you'd probably have a better chance at getting more top police dogs out of the German Shepard batch.

Although, for an ammie wanting an all-around solid horse, the draft cross might be a better choice by being hardier and a less sensitive partner at times, or better as an all-around horse. Just like me and my dog. :)

Wow, I am long winded today.

[Kelly in NJ]

PS To actually answer the OPs question, I'd call them draft crosses, unless you go through the process of registering them with the American Warmblood registry, then if they were registered as such, you could call them that. :)

[Sandy M]

Yikes! Don't ask over on the Sporthorse Breeding forum :eek: . There is a very long thread over there about exactly what you are asking. For the record, technically you would be correct calling your horses warmbloods (they are after all, hot blood x cold blood = warmblood), but expect to get flamed by people who think "warmblood" is a specific title for specific horses. A lot of people get pretty touchy about the subject :rolleyes: .

nonononononon.... it takes a heckuva laot more than two generations to create a WB. The European horses have been bred for many years from coach horses/TB/Arab other crosses to establish a TYPE. Technically, except for Trakhener, there is no "breed" of WB, they are all TYPES, their bloodlines recorded by registries according to past breeding and location.. Which means that even the coach horses they started with were further distant from any full draft. A draft x (hotblood of your choice) does NOT equal "Warmblood."

Still, what's wrong with draft cross. It's not MY choice, but many people like them. But they are NOT WBs in the sense it has meant in Europe (and now here) for many years. Now, I don't even have a WB so I have no dog in this hunt, but when I have been horse hunting, a get REALLY po'd when someone advertises a "WB" and it's a draft cross.

[appaloosalady]

nonononononon.... it takes a heckuva laot more than two generations to create a WB. The European horses have been bred for many years from coach horses/TB/Arab other crosses to establish a TYPE. Technically, except for Trakhener, there is no "breed" of WB, they are all TYPES, their bloodlines recorded by registries according to past breeding and location.. Which means that even the coach horses they started with were further distant from any full draft. A draft x (hotblood of your choice) does NOT equal "Warmblood."

Still, what's wrong with draft cross. It's not MY choice, but many people like them. But they are NOT WBs in the sense it has meant in Europe (and now here) for many years. Now, I don't even have a WB so I have no dog in this hunt, but when I have been horse hunting, a get REALLY po'd when someone advertises a "WB" and it's a draft cross.

No, hot blood x cold blood = warmblood, not Warmblood. I agree though, that draft/TB cross is the best description. I just would never have a problem with someone calling such a cross a "warmblood" (not Warmblood). I just really think it is hysterical how people get so worked up about it when most of the "Warmbloods" I know are registered with 3 or more European associations. How can one horse be a DWB, Gelderlander, SWB, Hannoverian all at once? Isn't that really more of a mutt than a horse with one purebred Clyde and one purebred TB as parents?

[MistyBlue]

It does get confusing. But the most of the European registries are just a registry and not a breed. It means that each registry has a certain set of criteria for acceptance and that these similarly bred horses meet ones for different registries. However, each registry has a very old, very tried and true set of criteria and testing to accept animals into it, hoping to preserve *and* constantly improve each type.
They can't be registered with more than one registry...but they can be acceptable in more than one. Which means if you have a registered Dutch and breed it to a registered Hano...the owner of the foal has the choice which registry to go with for it. A Gelderlander and a Dutch are the same registry...different types. Kind of like the different sections for Welsh...same ponies, different types.
Concerning actual breeds...yes, many of the registries have mutts in that the horse may have differently registered parents. But they're not mutts in that each parent is a totally different breed type, the mutts that are in the European registries have known and proven parentage for generations back. The registries might all have different names and logos...but many are extremely similar with just small differences that those who know them well can recognize. Sometimes the difference is just an athletic thing...certain registries produce more suitable jumpers than dressage mounts or vice versa. It's very similar to what we had when this country was young...people serious about good horses bought from certain regions of this country also. And many times those horses were visually almost identical...but had slight differences. Some were better as ladies mounts, some better as all around types, some better as field hunters, etc. Back then they were called by their regions often...or for their purposes. Certain stallions dominated certain areas and local breeders knew when they were producing finer animals. Not much different in Europe...just has been in practice for a much longer time period. And those horses were then named for their regions...Hanoverians, Dutch, Swedish, etc. Over here we tended to name our best animals after their breeders or for what they did best. Hence Morgans (for Justin Morgan) and Quarter Horses and Saddlebreds.
There's no reason American horses should be thought of as inferior. Right now for the common sports of hunters, dressage and jumpers...those are all disciplines that started centuries ago in Europe before the US came to be. When this country became more settled, we bred more for jobs rather than sports. Saddlebreds were started as great pleasure horses that added style as well as comfort for being in the saddle all day. QH's were developed for their jobs. Morgans as fabulous all around animals. (back then) In those areas and against those breeds there's nothing coming out of Europe that can compete and win consistently against them. There aren't many WB'S out there that can cut cattle or rack on. These were the beginnings of *our* equine sports and our equine roots...and in those we're pretty much unbeatable. Give us more time and we'll consistently produce as many "mainstream" sport horses as Europe does. But riding for sport/hobby/pleasure only is still relatively new to this young country of ours and since we've never had a class system we weren't sitting around often spending all our time developing horseflesh for recreation only back in the 1700's and 1800's and early 1900's. Our horses had jobs...that are now sports and we're tops in those. But since this country tends to do everything so fast compared to others...I don't think it'll be much longer before this country has many of the BEST dressage, eventers, jumpers, etc. I just wish we weren't trying to hang onto Europe's coattails and call ours WB's too. No reason too...it's already a moniker that brings to mind European horses. Their horses aren't better...just different.
JMHO. :winkgrin:

[JoZ]

Here's my dilemma on this topic --

I understand that crossing a draft with a TB, Arabian or any light horse does not have predictable or certain results. The types are different enough that the offspring could be anything from gorgeous to horrific. Isn't that why you are saying that it has taken generations to produce European warmbloods? I get that and respect it. That kind of reliability is what is needed for a breeding program and a registry.

But what about that gorgeous draft cross individual that shows up? Why is that INDIVIDUAL any different than a European warmblood? To my mind, the generations of breeding are so you can feel confident about your likelihood to get a specific type of offspring. If that type of offspring emerges from a non-traditional pairing, it's just more rare, not less real or valuable.

I think that draft cross describes breeding/genetics/heritage. I think that there is also a TYPE of horse. A draft cross might be draft type, family horse type, or -- here's the kicker -- warmblood TYPE. Or should it be sporthorse type? A horse with which one can compete in eventing, dressage or jumping. An athletic horse.

I have two draft cross fillies. One is somewhere between a draft type and a family horse type -- a light draft. The other is more of a sporthorse. I'd like to think that people would want to know what the horse is likely to be good at, and that ought to be at an individual level... no?

[Scaredacoops]

I like Saskatchewan Warmblood! My PMU boy (Perch/TB) is from there. I just call him "Perfect".

[Sandy M]

No, hot blood x cold blood = warmblood, not Warmblood. I agree though, that draft/TB cross is the best description. I just would never have a problem with someone calling such a cross a "warmblood" (not Warmblood). I just really think it is hysterical how people get so worked up about it when most of the "Warmbloods" I know are registered with 3 or more European associations. How can one horse be a DWB, Gelderlander, SWB, Hannoverian all at once? Isn't that really more of a mutt than a horse with one purebred Clyde and one purebred TB as parents?

I really don't think the general buying public and less than fully educated horse buyer makes the fine distinction between "warmblood" and "Warmblood," and it is therefore deceptive to advertise (and PRICE!) draft crosses that way. We've heard stories on here of people with unrealistic expectations or uneducated regarding horses having problems with horses they have bought. Do you think those type of people are going to distinguish between "w" and "W" with regard to draft crosses, and they'd have a right to be po'd if they thought they'd purchase something that is "a warmblood, like Brentina" to find that it's more "like the Budweiser horses."

[vineyridge]

Well, to me a draft cross is any horse that has purebred Draft in it. The other parts could be anything. A CanAm Sporthorse is a PMU horse that is trying to ride on the tails of the Canadian Sport Horse registry and confuse people like me. A PMU horse that is known PB TB and known PB Percheron should be (as it is) described as an Anglo Perch. Anglo for the TB and Perch for the percheron. There may not be a breed book or registry for these crosses, but the description is accurate. (Much like labradoodles or snoodles, if you want to know the truth.)

for what its worth, I've recently read an old book in which the author speculates that Percheron snuck into the Selle Francais in the very beginning.

[Just My Style]

I would call them "heaven". ;)

[ESG]

Perhaps you still have a bone to grind with me regarding 3eme's thread a while back, but I don't know why you're jumping all over me for no reason.

I'm not jumping on you, and I don't remember what you said on that other thread; I don't keep track of others' comments. I'm pointing out that you made an overly simplistic remark about "the numbers (of draft crosses versus warmbloods) in FEI competition speak for themselves". Of course there are more warmbloods in FEI competition, simply because that's what they're purchased and trained for, for the most part. And, like it or not, the fact is that many more draft crosses end up in slaughter than warmbloods; largely, because they're often a by-product of PMU farms that consider them disposable, as they are not the primary product of said farms. I don't know of any warmblood breeders who operate in a similar fashion.

IMO, draft crosses are far less common in the FEI ring not because they're inferior, but because fewer of them find their way into the hands of those headed to FEI. It's a lot easier to find a draft cross in the hunt field, eventing, or as an all-rounder, than it is to find a warmblood in those same jobs. Doesn't make the warmblood any less capable of the aforementioned; it's just not the main purpose of that horse. Same holds true for the draft cross in the FEI ring; doesn't mean they can't do the job, but they're usually not the first horse that comes to mind for those whose goal is the FEI ring.

So, your "numbers" actually don't "speak for themselves". ;)

[jilltx]

Unless it has papers and/or you are certain it is ONE breed (i.e. TB w/o papers), the standard term is "grade".

I must disagree on this point.

If you KNOW the parentage it doesn't change what the breed is, it's just not registered.

Grade to me denotes a horse of UNKNOWN parentage.

[ESG]

Well, the last auction I went to considered any unregistered horse to be "grade", meaning just that. Most of those had been put into the sale by the breeder, who ldid indeed disclose the actual cross, but that the horse(s) were not registered. A client bought a gorgeous grade Trakehner filly, who was listed as such, and I ended up with an adorable Anglo/Trak mare who is also grade, since she's not registered. She is eligible for registry with the ATA, since I have the requisite paperwork, but until I fill it out and send in the check and the DNA sample, she's considered "grade". ;)

JME. :cool:

[Wellspotted]

Appaloosa
Chincoteague Pony
Florida Cracker Horse
Missouri Foxtrotter
Pony of the Americas
Rocky Mountain Horse
Southwest Spanish Mustang
Tennessee Walking Horse

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I'm not jumping on you, and I don't remember what you said on that other thread; I don't keep track of others' comments. I'm pointing out that you made an overly simplistic remark about "the numbers (of draft crosses versus warmbloods) in FEI competition speak for themselves". Of course there are more warmbloods in FEI competition, simply because that's what they're purchased and trained for, for the most part. And, like it or not, the fact is that many more draft crosses end up in slaughter than warmbloods; largely, because they're often a by-product of PMU farms that consider them disposable, as they are not the primary product of said farms. I don't know of any warmblood breeders who operate in a similar fashion.

IMO, draft crosses are far less common in the FEI ring not because they're inferior, but because fewer of them find their way into the hands of those headed to FEI. It's a lot easier to find a draft cross in the hunt field, eventing, or as an all-rounder, than it is to find a warmblood in those same jobs. Doesn't make the warmblood any less capable of the aforementioned; it's just not the main purpose of that horse. Same holds true for the draft cross in the FEI ring; doesn't mean they can't do the job, but they're usually not the first horse that comes to mind for those whose goal is the FEI ring.

So, your "numbers" actually don't "speak for themselves". ;)

Again, why I stated that I PERSONALLY have no use for a (poorly bred) draft cross. Yes, with the type of riding that I do, a well-bred, athletic warmblood DOES give you the advantage over someone riding a draft cross with a clydesdale body on TB legs. And YET again, I appreciate a well-bred, well-planned, well-conformed draft cross. Nothing wrong with an amatuer friendly, large bodied mount. I just would own one at this point in my life.
And I will simply have to disagree with you concerning the FEI potential of most draft horses. People riding at the FEI level are there with goals and many do anything to reach those goals- including buying the best horses for that job. So if the average draft cross was really better suited to FEI level competition, you can bet that the average FEI rider would have a whole string in their barn- not these "snotty warmbloods." You're clearly out to put a stick in the fan, ESG. I'm not picking a fight with you or trying to start a "pissing contest" but you certainly seem "eager for some action"....

[Busymummy]

Edited to add for the OP:
If I had two draft crosses that looked like yours, I would be proud to say that's what they are. They give a good name to the type and I wish you much luck with them as they grow and come into themselves in whatever discipline you are pursuing.

Thank your for your compliment and I agree.:D I'm very happy with how nice they've turned out.

[Busymummy]

Again, why I stated that I PERSONALLY have no use for a (poorly bred) draft cross. Yes, with the type of riding that I do, a well-bred, athletic warmblood DOES give you the advantage over someone riding a draft cross with a clydesdale body on TB legs. And YET again, I appreciate a well-bred, well-planned, well-conformed draft cross. Nothing wrong with an amatuer friendly, large bodied mount. I just would own one at this point in my life.
And I will simply have to disagree with you concerning the FEI potential of most draft horses. People riding at the FEI level are there with goals and many do anything to reach those goals- including buying the best horses for that job. So if the average draft cross was really better suited to FEI level competition, you can bet that the average FEI rider would have a whole string in their barn- not these "snotty warmbloods." You're clearly out to put a stick in the fan, ESG. I'm not picking a fight with you or trying to start a "pissing contest" but you certainly seem "eager for some action"....

IMHO, most people who spend the money to purchase these well-bred and expensive Warmbloods do so because they plan on competing at the FEI level, have the money to spend, and have the time and money to campaign. I purchased my draft crosses because they were going to slaughter and I've never had aspirations of competing at FEI level. (I have a 50 hr a week job and two children under the age of 4....hence no time) I will say this though. My trainer has been working with my horses and Paddy is jumping 3'6 now and showing a ton of potential to go bigger. I just wonder if the reason why you don't see that many draft crosses at the FEI level is because most people who own them are more like me. They want a nice big horse, with a great mind, at a less expense. I personally could never justify spending the money on a fancy Warmblood. I love them, but I would never have the time to show them to their potential. If I were single and w/o children, maybe it would be feasible, but I'm not, so I just make do with what I have and that's ok.

I just have to add that I used to live in San Diego and always went to Del Mar to watch the Grand Prix jumpers when there were shows. There was a rider there, Duncan ???? (I don't remember is whole name but I think he was from Canada) who was riding a Clyde/TB cross in the jumpers. His horse was AWESOME!!!!! :yes:

[vineyridge]

So what's a Friesan? Draft? Not draft? Not a "light" horse, that's for sure.

And they are faddish popular with the well-heeled bunch.

[ESG]

You're clearly out to put a stick in the fan, ESG. I'm not picking a fight with you or trying to start a "pissing contest" but you certainly seem "eager for some action"....

Don't flatter yourself. :p

[ESG]

So what's a Friesan? Draft? Not draft? Not a "light" horse, that's for sure.

Friesians are light draft horses. As are Irish Draught.

And they are faddish popular with the well-heeled bunch.

I think rarity value, plus their romantic appearance, has a bit to do with that. Another breed that would not be my first choice for FEI dressage. And they don't jump. Not to FEI standards, anyway. Nice draft horses, though. ;)

[Coreene]

I'd call it a Grade, but that's just me. I hate when people cross 2 breeds and try to pretend it's a whole new breed (Araloosa, Goldendoodle)
Another vote for Grade.

[LivviesMom]

I'd just call them PMU babies and be proud! They are lovely horses.

As for the canadian registries..
CanAm Sport Horse does not exist.
For the Canadian Warmblood and Canadian Sport Horse, it works like this..
The are looking for horses that fit the sport horse type.
So I could take my filly who was a rescue, but is full TB and if she goes through the inspection and meets the requirements, she would be approved for breeding, not registered. if I bred her to a breeding approved stallion, her offspring could be registered CSH or Canadian warmblood. You could take your nice PMU babies and have them approved if you wanted as long as the horse meets the criteria.The aim is to produce sport horse type animals for hunter/jumper/dressage/eventing etc. I am planning to have my filly inspected as a three year old. But they are not registries for PMU babies.

Good Luck with them!

[Sandy M]

Appaloosa
Chincoteague Pony (wrecked ship/Spanish derivation or other?)
Florida Cracker Horse (I have no idea)
Missouri Foxtrotter (Quarterhorse and gaited - probably coldblood)
Pony of the Americas (Appy and Shetland - technicall a cross of warm&cold, not hot & cold)
Rocky Mountain Horse (obviously gaited, what else?)
Southwest Spanish Mustang (Spanish mustangs presumeably would be considered some sort of warmblood at far remove - but not the mixed bag feral/QH/draft godknows what mustangs)
Tennessee Walking Horse (Standardbred/gaited/TB - a mixed bag)

Technically, Appaloosas ARE "warmblood," while QH, despite their large infusion of TB (and a TB founder?!? [Janus]) are classified as "cold blood." Go figure. With the Appies, I assume it is because the American spotted horses can be traced back to Spanish Arab/Barb/Iberian blood. Of course, we are talking real Appaloosas in that case, not Quarterloosas.

[neVar]

they are Draft crosses and NOTHING else. TO be a Canadian Sport horse they would have to be from Registered and approved parents and b registered themselves. To be a Canadian warmblood they would need the above AS WELL As warmblood content in their pedigree (Needed for either parent to be eligible).

[The Potato's Mom]

I also have a TB/Perch cross, and just adore him! Some told me they were called and I gag, "Thorcheron," I prefer TB/Draft X, Draft X or just plain Warmblood. He is eligible to be registered American Warmblood, but I see no
point; he is a gelding and not for sale.

In the 70 and 80's I had a registered "Canadian Sport Horse," mare that was Clyde/TB/Selle Francais cross. Another fabulous horse!

Canadian Sport Horses are not just PMU's, but many are eligible to be registered.

[MistyBlue]

Also agree...grade means non-papered. There are grade qh's and grade paints...just not papered/registered. Grade doesn't mean unknown mutt...not does it mean crappy horse or bad breeding. Grade only means not registered. It's only a synonym (did I just murder that?) for bad to two types of people: Snobs and folks who have an unregistered horse and somehow feel defensive about it.
As said by many including myself...most of the very best horses I've know were great grades. Here in CT if the horse is talented, safe, sane and sound and is a grade...there are still buyers beating a path to the sales persons' homes for it and are willing to pay well for it.
The only time a grade would be unacceptable would be to a breed show or as a breeding prospect if the parentage were unknown. (too risky to predict outcome or know of genetic defects)

[OakesBrae]

I use draft-cross or just crossbred. My horse is TB/Perch/QH and he's about the most handsomest horse in the whole-wide world (if I, and he, do say so ourselves). Athletic? Heck yea. Smart? Oh yea, very very smart. He's registered with NAERIC and his parentage is verified. I could submit him to the Am. Warmblood society and thought about it, just to see how things turned out (because he is a very high quality animal), but I may wait and let his performance speak for itself.

The only thing I'm bummed about is that there's no logo for totally awesome draft-cross. Maybe someone here could design one. Because I would proudly proclaim what he is on every item of clothing and horse clothing I own!

[OnyxThePony]

We (here in the heart of PMU country, Canada) call them PMUs. Anything else is sort of locally frowned on as "trying to be uppity" ;)
Some awfully niiiiice PMUs out there. Some not so nice. Just like any breed or cross.
But by calling them a PMU, you know someone has either a) intentionally bought a really nice sporthorse prospect without the stupid warmblood over$$ or b) been kind enough to get their hands on a darling bundle of luuuurve and take their chances.

[Wellspotted]

I don't know who added the parenthetical comments to my list of American horses with names derived from locales, but I do wish that my list had been posted as a quote and the parenthetical comments added separately in the post instead of appearing as part of the quote and therefore as if I had made the comments.
I was not commenting on the temperature of the blood of any of those breeds but simply making a comment that not all American breeds have names based on the breed's purpose.
I was gonna post a request to ESG and FrenchFry to take their p***ing contest elsewhere and let the rest of us get on with discussing draft crosses and warmbloods in peace . . but now I myself am a bit p***ed off at having my original post quoted with comments not made by me!
Oh, for heaven's sake--someone just tell me where I can find a PMU horse. Busymummy's sound fantastic and I've met a couple whom I liked very much. Cute, personable, and built like I like 'em!

[Sandy M]

I don't know who added the parenthetical comments to my list of American horses with names derived from locales, but I do wish that my list had been posted as a quote and the parenthetical comments added separately in the post instead of appearing as part of the quote and therefore as if I had made the comments.
I was not commenting on the temperature of the blood of any of those breeds but simply making a comment that not all American breeds have names based on the breed's purpose.
I was gonna post a request to ESG and FrenchFry to take their p***ing contest elsewhere and let the rest of us get on with discussing draft crosses and warmbloods in peace . . but now I myself am a bit p***ed off at having my original post quoted with comments not made by me!
Oh, for heaven's sake--someone just tell me where I can find a PMU horse. Busymummy's sound fantastic and I've met a couple whom I liked very much. Cute, personable, and built like I like 'em!

Sorry about that - just laziness - didn't want to have to retype the whole list. Just trying to add that being named for a "place" like WBs (Hanover, Hesse, the Netherlands, Gelderland, Oldenburg) also doesnot make a horse a WB.

[caffeinated]

Oh, for heaven's sake--someone just tell me where I can find a PMU horse. Busymummy's sound fantastic and I've met a couple whom I liked very much. Cute, personable, and built like I like 'em!

I got mine here (http://www.cancadefarms.com)

:)

I like the idea of a draft cross logo, thing... Need to get my creative juices flowing and try to think of something :)

[Purely4Pleasure]

Also agree...grade means non-papered. There are grade qh's and grade paints...just not papered/registered. Grade doesn't mean unknown mutt...not does it mean crappy horse or bad breeding. Grade only means not registered. It's only a synonym (did I just murder that?) for bad to two types of people: Snobs and folks who have an unregistered horse and somehow feel defensive about it.
As said by many including myself...most of the very best horses I've know were great grades. Here in CT if the horse is talented, safe, sane and sound and is a grade...there are still buyers beating a path to the sales persons' homes for it and are willing to pay well for it.
The only time a grade would be unacceptable would be to a breed show or as a breeding prospect if the parentage were unknown. (too risky to predict outcome or know of genetic defects)

I agree that "grade" should not be seen as perjorative, and it certainly would be an appropriate description of an unpapered/registered crossbred. But I think the point is also well taken that if an owner knows the actual breeding, including this information is a nice way of furthering a conversation (whereas just answering "grade" might be seen as a bit abrupt and conversation-closing). Unless, of course, the owner is not interested in continuing the conversation... But with lovely horses like the OP's, I know I'd gush to anyone who held still long enough!

[Busymummy]

I agree that "grade" should not be seen as perjorative, and it certainly would be an appropriate description of an unpapered/registered crossbred. But I think the point is also well taken that if an owner knows the actual breeding, including this information is a nice way of furthering a conversation (whereas just answering "grade" might be seen as a bit abrupt and conversation-closing). Unless, of course, the owner is not interested in continuing the conversation... But with lovely horses like the OP's, I know I'd gush to anyone who held still long enough!

:D Thank you so much. Since I raised them, I know that my perspective is biased, but it's nice to hear that other people agree with me.

[Wellspotted]

Originally posted by Sandy:

"Just trying to add that being named for a "place" like WBs (Hanover, Hesse, the Netherlands, Gelderland, Oldenburg) also doesnot make a horse a WB."

(Hanover , Hesse [ditto] , the Netherlands [the Netherlands], Gelderland [the Netherlands?], Oldenburg [Germany?])

There! Hopefully I just demonstrated how to post both a quote and an edited list/quote. ;)

Thanks for the PMU link, caffeinated. I will check it out. If you come up with a draft cross logo idea, I'd love to see it. I've been thinking of getting a Dutch Warmblood license plate for my car and, when and if DW people ask me if I ride Dutch Warmbloods, smiling and saying, "No, I ride a pony but my great-grandparents were Dutch!" and seeing if they "get" it.

Guess that means [I]I'm not a grade!