Solid Appies? Argh.

[zagafi]

I've been watching the live feed of the Appaloosa World Show and have seen TWO colored Appies. The rest are all solid. Forget the peanut rolling (ugh) and four beaters (double ugh), where are the SPOTS??

[Sandy M]

I've been watching the live feed of the Appaloosa World Show and have seen TWO colored Appies. The rest are all solid. Forget the peanut rolling (ugh) and four beaters (double ugh), where are the SPOTS??

Ah, but you see, the ApHC is now going to be an appendix to AQHA - where they've been heading all along (just kiddin' on the square). How they can call a horse that is 7/8ths QH and lacks any color or characteristics and Appaloosa is beyond me. I call 'em Quarterloosas and I won't touch breed shows unless I have a super jumper* that I can take in over fences classes only. Not worth the anguish, the bad judging, etc. I think failed AQHA people (AQHA - whatever it's virtues or vices - is VERY competitive) all got themselves involved with ApHC and have taken over. When you read Lewis & Clark, they compare the Nez Perce horses to "virginia blood horses." Sounds like TB type to me, not Impressive-bred herefords at halter.

*Let me amend that. An average to good jumper would probably win most times. Heck, when I RETIRED my old eventer, he won circuit champion jumper at a double/double point show without ever having to jump off. At age NINETEEN.

I echo your AAAARGGGH in SPADES. [see my profile pic for MY guy. He ain't no Quarterloosa, and what little QH is in there (4th gen.) is the "good" kind: Cherry Bounce, Leo, Joe Reed.

[zagafi]

See my profile pic for my girl. She ain't no Quarterloosa either! She's allll spots!!

[enjoytheride]

Is the live feed free? Where can I find it?

[zagafi]

Is the live feed free? Where can I find it?

Sure is!

http://horsecity.com/webcast/embedvideo.aphc.shtml You'll need Real Player, which is a free download if you don't have it.

[Sabovee]

I've only been watching for a bit - but .... Umm... Spots? Hello?
It's very sad that there are no appys at this appy show....

Shoulda taken mine - Show them what they're supposed to look like ;)

[zagafi]

I've only been watching for a bit - but .... Umm... Spots? Hello?
It's very sad that there are no appys at this appy show....

Shoulda taken mine - Show them what they're supposed to look like ;)

Very nice spots! :) It is sad, isn't it? I mean it's one horse that even the most "non-horsey" can usually recognize, yet at THE breed show they're mostly solid?? AAAGGGHHH!!!!

[cosmos mom]

I love the spots! I also like appaloosa-type appaloosas- I would probably never buy a QH-type Appy!

[Chief2]

Its been this way for quite a while. About 25 percent of appaloosas are born naturally solid. Once the quarter horse judges began seriously judging the appy shows, they leaned towards pinning solid colored appys on the basis that they could see the movement better on solid colored horses than on spotted ones. From there, the app breeders figured out how to play the genetics to get a better percentage of the foals solid colored so they would sell better to the show people, and the cycle began. Hopefully, with the changes in the requirements for registration, spots will someday make a comeback. All of mine have been spotted, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Sabovee]

Very nice spots! :) It is sad, isn't it? I mean it's one horse that even the most "non-horsey" can usually recognize, yet at THE breed show they're mostly solid?? AAAGGGHHH!!!!

It is sad! Even my Mom knows which the Appy is standing out in the field with all my others (I think that's why she says he's her favourite!)....

[bryn]

I also echo your disgust! The appaloosa is historically a breed of spots.

MONEY ruined the spots and money continues to do so.

The last CEO of the Appaloosa Horse Club tried to push more for the resurgence of color. . . he got unceremoniously dumped on his arse.

I gave up my membership.

This is not supposed to be a breed of QH's. . . appaloosas were range/working western horses. . . hardy, colorful, handy, and extremely long-lived with next to no health issues. Now look what we have because the "money talks breeders/judges" had their heads turned.

Shame on them.

[darkmoonlady]

It is a shame really I used to frequent an appy website and it became clear that they were pro quarter horse when I agreed with another poster that there USED to be and still is in pockets what I think of as real appaloosas. They informed me that that wasn't a bad thing, that why shouldn't you want top notch quarter horse blood if it was available. I had to disagree. I really think that the Appaloosa with spots, distinct not quarterhorses with spots, should be at appy shows.

[lilblackhorse]

having grown up in Idaho where the AHC was founded, and knowing George Hatley, it makes me really sad that this is what is the future of a once proud breed of horses.

I for one liked the spots--liked the diversity---and liked that they weren't QH (not that there's anything wrong with them). It's just if you want a qh, get one, leave the appaloosa alone.

Hmmm---that's just sad.

[Amber_M]

Although I fully believe that Appys should have spots, my friend has a GORGEOUS solid black mare that wins alot of the breed stuff...but it's b/c shes just alot prettier and typy-er and her solid color kinda makes her conformation stand out more.

[saddleup]

It's happened with Paints, too. I quit showing at breed shows when it was apparent they were biased toward "minimal white" overos, which basically meant you couldn't tell they were Paints. I like them loud and with lots of color. It's a color breed, after all. I love appys, have a friend with the most beautiful one I've ever seen, and his spots are HUGE. Now that quarter horses can have spots, it's very confusing. And appys don't have to have spots at all.

A very puzzling trend.

[sidepasser]

Maybe the App folks with colored horses should do what the QH folks with old stocky bulldog type QH's did and start their own registry and show circuit -

Both Apps and Paints are all about color as well as Pinto, and the Cream registery.

Pretty soon we can cut out the breed shows and just have a show for horses that are of QH characteristics..and be done with it. Except that now QHs are really trying to be TBs...lol...

My first QH was an old Skipper W/Doc Bar bred mare and was 14.2 and weighed right at 1200 lbs and was a wide as a gunboat and had huge round feet and never had a hoof problem. Looks like the breeds are changing, but is it for the better? Guess that is why there is now a Foundation QH Association..trying to preserve what's left of the old blood.

[mrsbwayne]

So solid appys can show? I thought if there's a big N on the registration number, they can't show. Or have to have permission? Or something, I don't know.

Allegra's parents were both leopards, she comes from a long line of appys, black as night, not a spot on her.

Boomie on the other hand.... :D

Allegra says, if there's any doubt that I'm really an appy, just check out my big butt! hahaha!

Sarina

[Sassenach]

LOFF the appaloosas with spots - they are really taking off in Ireland and are in high demand there and the ones I've seen in Ireland are not the Quarterloosas - a bunch of our boarders have Appaloosas (with TONS of spots) and I adore them - fabulous horses. Still love my Connies best but I like a good APpy (with spots!) :yes:

[mrsbwayne]

One of them had a beautiful tail, how the heck do you get an appy with a nice tail like that, was it fake??
Sairna

[bludejavu]

My Appaloosa had a very good tail and I kept it braided in a tail bag much of the time to preserve it. He was as spotted as he could be without being an all-out Leopard. I often wondered how I got lucky to get a horse with a real tail but I guess it's all in the genes. I'm into a completely different breed now but if I were to buy an App again, I only want one that looks like he's an App from a mile away.

[Sabovee]

My new Appy has a nice tail - I was surprised! :)

[atr]

My very spotty foundation-bred appy has a fabulous tail and mane.

[nightsong]

I'm not interested in spots, I'm interested in preserving the original Appaloosa BLOODLINES. That is a horse we don't want to lose; they're pretty impressive animals.

[abrant]

My insane mind's vision of the perfect appaloosa. This was an 18 year old gelding at a barn I worked at.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/pacohalter2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/pacohalter.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/pacoclassicappylook.jpg

It is my belief there is nothing uglier than a good appaloosa.

Paco was a wonderful horse - a h.u.g.e. mover.

Same is happening to POAs, btw, even though it specifically says that they are NOT in the rule book... they're becoming little appaloosas, so little quarter horses.

~Adrienne

[RHdobes563]

Okay, I'm confused.

My cousin has a registered Appaloosa. He is black with one white foot and no characteristics, other than one striped hoof. He looks like (and is bred) a "Quarterloosa." His registration papers say that he cannot be shown, and I e-mailed the Appaloosa Club of America, who confirmed this.

So, why are THESE solid-colored "Appaloosas" being shown?

[appdream]

Solid colored Appaloosa have to be inspected and have their DNA verified, inorder to get a CPO (Certified Pedigree Option - verifies parentage). Once they have their CPO they can compete in ApHC shows. This will be replaced next year by Perfomance Permits, which eliminates the inspections. You will pay less for a permit for a App to App bred horse, then for an App to outcross (OH, TB, Arab the only outcross the ApHC reconize) bred horse. Their parentage must still be DNA verified.

I have two solid Apps, both are from Appaloosa to Appaloosa breeding. My yearling possibly will roan out as she gets older, but only time will tell. I wish my girls had more Appy like tails. Three have tails that drag on the ground, the other two have tails that are below their hocks.

[zagafi]

One of them had a beautiful tail, how the heck do you get an appy with a nice tail like that, was it fake??
Sairna

My girl has a nice mane and tail, but I'm betting those in the show are mostly fake.

[cosmos mom]

My horse has very little mane or tail- the biggest problem with this is that I have nop mane for jumping xc!

[Delighted]

Any chance to post photos of my most excellent fat mare, Kate. Here she is doing a dressage clinic with an adult rider at our old barn (I'm in the background, on my solid appy, William - well, he's not 100% solid - he has frosting on his hips, but not enough to really notice).

http://i12.tinypic.com/48ecow6.jpg

With her first foal, Edward: http://i12.tinypic.com/4973syh.jpg

Edward as a weanling: http://i11.tinypic.com/2vafivm.jpg

And at 18 months: http://i11.tinypic.com/35bijxs.jpg

[Sandy M]

The tail thing varies with the different bloodlines. My Toby line Appy had a very lush, full tail, and I've seen pics of other Toby-line horses that also had full tails. My Old Painter bred horse had a long, but very very thin tail and I NEVER brushed or combed it except to wash it once in a while, or else it would disappear to barely hock length. I always hand picked it.

Yeah, you breed a minimally colored 1/2 QH to a QH, then breed the barely colored off spring to another QH and OMIGOD - the baby has no color! But its parents are registered "Appaloosas," so you blood type and CPO..... and another Quarterloosa hits the show trail. Grrrrrrrrrr....

Yes, even foundation bred Appies will produce no color babies - but most of those babies DO have characteristics and produce color if bred back to good Appy bloodlines. But do you think those 7/8ths QH no color horses will produce color unless they are bred to a homozygous colored stallion. Rarely.

There's nothing wrong with a good QH, but I say if you want a QH, buy one. Don't dilute and corrupt and existing breed and turn it into QH clones. True Appies are NOT QH. Yes, there is QH, TB, Arab and even ASB in there, because it is a recovered breed, almost destroyed at the turn of the century in the Nez Perce indian wars. Corrupted by the indians being forced to breed their buffalo/war horses to drafts, or horses killed outright. But when Thompson, Peckinpah and Hatley founded the registry and encouraged registration and breeding of Apps to reeestablish the breed, they crossed with Arabs and TBs as being closer to true Appy type. I imagine if Iberian horses had been readily available, they'd have used some of them. Some "QH types" (and I mean good foundation type QH, not halter herefords) were in there, but the modern wholesale outcrossing is destroying the breed and encouraged by the very registry that actually saved the breed. And they wonder why their registration numbers are down, while APHA numbers soar. Disgusting.

[SkipHiLad4me]

I used to have an Appy when I was younger who had an amazing mane and tail. It was one of the thickest tails I've ever seen on a horse and I never did anything to it! It was beautiful. I kept a lock of it after he passed away but I'm not sure where it is now :sadsmile:


It really is appalling that so many solid Appys are being shown. The app association shouldn't even allow solid apps to show since it's such a trademark of the breed. Register them... just don't show them.

I own a Paint now and I too have noticed an increase in the number of "mildly painted" Paints ;) Why buy a color breed if you don't want the color!?!?:confused:

[Auventera Two]

I've been watching the live feed of the Appaloosa World Show and have seen TWO colored Appies. The rest are all solid. Forget the peanut rolling (ugh) and four beaters (double ugh), where are the SPOTS??

These are "quarterloosas" they aren't REAL apps. World show or not. Registered or not, I don't care. When I think of Appaloosa, I think of the horses of 20 or 30 years ago. Not the crap they pump out today.

[fullmoon fever]

I quit showing the App breed shows 20 years ago when it was apparent that ALL they were interested in were QHs. I could easily place the halter classes by the color (or lack thereof) w/o even giving a passing glance to conformation.

I stopped giving them my money a long time ago.

One of my guys is in my profile. 16.2hh, lots of colour and mane and tail to boot. I breed App sporthorses and although I definitely want a horse with good conformation, as App is supposed to be a colored breed, I also hope for a color pattern as well. I've only been disappointed a very few times. :winkgrin:

That being said, I'm really tired of seeing ads from people who want horses and emphatically state "NO APPIES". I currently have a 2 yr. old filly who does not (and will never have) any colour. I defy anyone to pick her out of a field and say she is an App...99% of people believe she is a WB (she's 16.3hh and still growing :eek:).

[Paragon]

My mother-in-law, who breeds Appies as a 'hobby' (hoo boy, expensive hobby) has a couple of solid Appy mares, but they're from bloodlines she favors, and they throw some LOUD color when bred to her leopard stallion.

Spots aren't everything... but they ARE kinda important. ;)

[cosmos mom]

I look at the spots as a reward for dealing with the occasional stubborn appy days :lol:!

[Sandy M]

I look at the spots as a reward for dealing with the occasional stubborn appy days :lol:!


Well, you know what they say: The reason cowboys don't like Arabs and Appies is that in order to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is!

My horse is a 2nd gen TB/App cross, full color, but boy is his personality totally Appaloosa. My previous two Apps were both Foundation bred - Toby line and Red Eagle/Old painter - 16 hands and 16.3, respectively, so Foundation doesn't necessarily mean "small." All my Apps have been full color. When horse hunting, I wouldn't even LOOK at a solid horse. Granted, there are some solid Foundation Appies, but while I admire Appaloosa soundness, sanity, toughness and interesting personality (not to mention athleticism), I say, if you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly: If I BUY an Appy (if you breed, you take what comes), I want it to LOOK like an Appy.

[fullmoon fever]

Well, you know what they say: The reason cowboys don't like Arabs and Appies is that in order to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is!

Amen!

[Lisa Cook]

Sandy M. - interesting about your foundation-breds being so tall. I have a 5 year old foundation-bred, and he measured @ 16.2 last February. I've been scared to measure him again, because I'm afraid he might have grown! He grew over 2 inches as a 4 year old, go figure. I wish I had a $1 for everyone who has asked what he was crossed with - with the general guess being a warmblood of some kind. I did pull out his pedigree, and he doesn't have any of the bloodlines that you mention, so he must get his height from somewhere else. His mother was 14.3 and his father was 15.3!

On a different subject....do any App owners here who compete in the real world belong to ACAAP? (Appaloosa Competitive All-Breed Activities Program) It is supposed to "recognize the achievements of those Appaloosas competing in open and all-breed activities". The only reason why I know of it is because the person I bought my horse from handed me a ACAAP application, since my plans are to event this horse, she thought I'd be interested. But I've never seen the program mentioned in the past year of receiving ApHC Horse Journals every month.

Delighted - the change in Edward from a foal to 18 months is astounding! I never knew Apps could so dramatically evolve their coloring like that!

[Delighted]

Hey Lisa - yeah, Teddy likes to shock us all with his color changing. The dramatic change actually happened over about 3 weeks - I saw him once, before he shed out, and he was slightly roany, but still basically a dun. Then, three weeks later, he'd shed out to THAT. :D I haven't seen him in a few months, but my mom says that he's back to being a dun - so I guess his winter coat is sold, and his summer coat is, ah, not.. :D

And I'd love to hear more about the ACAAP if you find out - I doubt William is App enough to count, but I'm pretty sure Edward would ;) and I'd love to do something like that with him.

[GansMyMan]

Funny this should be started... I always wanted an appy, because they're smart and loud and hearty and because they weren't QH's. Never found one that actually was all of those things, though; and could be regionally competitive up to PSG and I could teach to jump and hence, hunt. So, now I'm back to OTTB's.

[Lisa Cook]

Gans - I've got one. :) He has recieved "8's" on gaits from dressage judges. My dressage trainer (a licensed judge and USDF gold medalist) approves of him, spots and all. He's a been-there-done-that trail horse at the ripe old age of 5 (my 10 year old rode him for 45 minutes on the trails the other day). And...he jumps. No one will mistake him for Rox Dene with his jumping form, but he's neat and tidy with his knees, and he has calmed lept out of a 5 1/2 foot high round pen, so scope does not appear to be an issue.

He's not for sale though!

Here we are on a hunter pace this fall. The jump is tiny, but that is where the photographer happened to be. He does have a blanket on his butt (hence his barn name of Linus :cool:), but it's not readily apparent from this angle.

[GansMyMan]

Argh! A tease! But your horse is a beaut. I'm jealous. But not for long hopefully! I'm going to the local race track tomorrow to see what is up for sale.

[Sandy M]

Funny this should be started... I always wanted an appy, because they're smart and loud and hearty and because they weren't QH's. Never found one that actually was all of those things, though; and could be regionally competitive up to PSG and I could teach to jump and hence, hunt. So, now I'm back to OTTB's.

Go look at the horses here, you might find what you wanted:

www.confettifarms.com

(But you can't have Magic Marker - I already bought him!)

[Sandy M]

Sandy M. - interesting about your foundation-breds being so tall. I have a 5 year old foundation-bred, and he measured @ 16.2 last February. I've been scared to measure him again, because I'm afraid he might have grown! He grew over 2 inches as a 4 year old, go figure. I wish I had a $1 for everyone who has asked what he was crossed with - with the general guess being a warmblood of some kind. I did pull out his pedigree, and he doesn't have any of the bloodlines that you mention, so he must get his height from somewhere else. His mother was 14.3 and his father was 15.3!

On a different subject....do any App owners here who compete in the real world belong to ACAAP? (Appaloosa Competitive All-Breed Activities Program) It is supposed to "recognize the achievements of those Appaloosas competing in open and all-breed activities". The only reason why I know of it is because the person I bought my horse from handed me a ACAAP application, since my plans are to event this horse, she thought I'd be interested. But I've never seen the program mentioned in the past year of receiving ApHC Horse Journals every month.


Well, look at the JG horses - while A lot of her sale horses are outcrosses to TB and WB, her stallions are all tall, and most are either Foundation or Foundation/TB.

In another post, I listed the linke to Confetti Farms. Both her stallions are in the 90th percentile of Foundation and are both 16.3.

I did ACAAP with my now retired horse. He finished in the Top Ten several times, but he was in his teens when I started, so I never showed him enough to get a "Master's" certificate. I'm surprised you haven't noticed in the Journal. When I stopped showing, I stopped paying my dues. I didn't want the Journal anyway. Too many Quarterloosas. But there is generally an ad every month for ACAAP. Just go to the ApHC website and you can get more info.

[GansMyMan]

I think it's safe to say, yes, I want one. But they are in CA and I'm in MA... The prices aren't crazy either! I'm bookmarking that site for later inspections. We'll see just how much the new job provides for.

[Delighted]

Sandy M! Congrats! My first appy was a bright chestnut with a blanket, and I've always drooled after them since... somehow, I keep getting varnish roans (or chestnuts appies WITHOUT the blanket..). He's gorgeous!

Maybe check out the JG Apps as well. My mare was bred to Wap's Rolls Royce this summer, but reabsorbed late in the season. I know one or two of their boys is more dressage-y, and they seem to have a huge network of available offspring (example: I was telling the owner about William, who is out of a Wap's Spot 2 daughter. She paused for a second, thought about it, and knew exactly who William's dam was, who owned her and where she went, and then could remember William as a child, as well. This from a horse bred in Texas, by a WB breeder - it seems like she knows where ALL of the WS2 "kids" are, which is massively impressive to me, at least, since I'm doing well to remember my 3 geldings' names on some days.. :D )

[Lisa Cook]

Sandy - he is nice! Good luck with him!

Looking at the others on that page - Spiced Hot Chocolate is a pretty fancy looking boy. :cool:

[Sandy M]

Sandy - he is nice! Good luck with him!

Looking at the others on that page - Spiced Hot Chocolate is a pretty fancy looking boy. :cool:



If he'd been a two year old, and not a suckling, I'd have wanted him.

[RHdobes563]

Appdream, I believe my cousin's horse HAS CPO marked on his papers.

This horse is TOO much for her, and it's difficult to sell a "registered" horse when its own breed registry won't allow it to be shown.

* sigh *

[zagafi]

Oohhhhh, pretty! Now THAT'S what I call an App!

[colleent]

i totally agree and support the foundation app 100%. i got flamed for it on a supposed App forum i was on. i don't want to see the conformation of a QH. yuk. i want the body of a foundation app. i want his courage, intelligence, good feet and easy keeping. there is a foundation app club, but the website stinks.

here is my Guy, the Bay and my husband's deceased Leo App. Check out his tail and his pedigree goes back to JokerB.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/BatHealer/shooterwind.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/BatHealer/tangosun.jpg

[mrsbwayne]

Can someone post pictures of a foundation app vs a QH app? I don't really know the difference. What are the differences? Boomie is half QH, so be nice! hahaha!! Allegra is full Appy, I think she is foundation, but I don't remember. They both have papers.
Sarina

[colleent]

ok here is a horse from the appaloosa horse club. this is a spotted QH, not an App.

http://www.appaloosa.com/images/idealappaloosadownload.JPG

and here are examples of foundation apps
http://www.foundationapp.org/

[Sandy M]

Can someone post pictures of a foundation app vs a QH app? I don't really know the difference. What are the differences? Boomie is half QH, so be nice! hahaha!! Allegra is full Appy, I think she is foundation, but I don't remember. They both have papers.
Sarina

Well, not posting pictures, but look at any winning halter App these days (outside of the new Foundation class) Horses from the Dreamfinder, Andrew, Impressive Bloodlines, Zippo lines. Just think halter QH with spots (more often, without spots.)

Then look at horses on the FAHR web page or the Confetti Farms stallions.

[mrsbwayne]

Oh wow, that does look like a QH with spots. I see the difference!
Sarina

[Sandy M]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/BatHealer/tangosun.jpg


They are both lovely, but he is just SOOOOO true App. Of course, the "Joker" there is that both of Joker B's parents were registered AQHA. Apparently, back then AQHA couldn't tell an Appaloosa roan from a QH. Blue Vitriol was apparently a blue roan Appaloosa - but she got registered AQHA. Still, in that case you're talking Foundation QH, which looks very little like the Impressive type modern QH who may not take steroids, but sure looks like it does (not to mention the size 00 feet).

FAHR designates many TB, Arab and QH crosses as Foundation, because, well, you gotta start somewhere, so they chose a registration # of ApHC horses from before the wholesale outcrossing with QH, and designated those horses (horses like Red Eagle, Navajo Britches, etc.) Foundation. Now they require 3/4 App BY BLOOD to be designated "Foundation" - they are much stricter than the ApHC Foundation designation.

[zagafi]

Ok, duh question time--can a simple look through a pedigree give an idea of % of "blood"? My girl's from Prince Plaudit lines, but also has Three Bars (not uncommon, I know). Like most Apps, she's got TB and QH in her pedigree, but I'm betting she'd qualify as foundation if I'm "figuring" correctly.

[Delighted]

Sandy M - I've got to know. She doesn't look like a quarterloosa, she doesn't act like a quarterloosa... but is my mare considered a quarterloosa?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/r+southern+bars

I'll... TRY... to love her just the same if she's a quarterloosa, but I'm making no promises... :D

[LarkspurCO]

I read the title of this thread at least 15 times thinking it said "Solid apples" and wondering what was wrong with that. Don't want them thar runny apples...

[Sandy M]

Sandy M - I've got to know. She doesn't look like a quarterloosa, she doesn't act like a quarterloosa... but is my mare considered a quarterloosa?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/r+southern+bars

I'll... TRY... to love her just the same if she's a quarterloosa, but I'm making no promises... :D

Hard to decipher all of that pedigree, but I'd say not: There's a mix of MOSTLY Appaloosa, some QH, some TB. I don't know that she'd qualify as Foundation under FAHR standards, but she might under ApHC standards. I'm not clear on ApHC requirements, but I know they are not as stringent as FAHR. To me, it looks like there's enough Appy in there for her NOT to be considered a Quarterloosa. When I say Quarterloosa I look to three things:

1. More QH than App in the pedigree (not the case for your horse);
2. Conformation (you say not Quarterloosa conformation)
3. Color - less a factor: Some Quarterloosas luck out with good color; but the more you dilute, the less color in most cases.

[colleent]

i'm also not saying to stop loving your horse if it is a spotted QH, but lets stop breeding them. and let's call them for what they are.

i think as far as Joker B goes, the QH's of his time were not the ones of today, and i don't think those QH's back then were all so pure, anyway. So i think Tango qualifies as a foundation TYPE Appy. or he did. he passed away from cancer at 25. that photo is him 6 months before he died.

here is info on JokerB

http://www.appaloosajournal.com/magazine/bloodlines/archives/jokerb.html

[Delighted]

Hard to decipher all of that pedigree, but I'd say not: There's a mix of MOSTLY Appaloosa, some QH, some TB. I don't know that she'd qualify as Foundation under FAHR standards, but she might under ApHC standards. I'm not clear on ApHC requirements, but I know they are not as stringent as FAHR. To me, it looks like there's enough Appy in there for her NOT to be considered a Quarterloosa. When I say Quarterloosa I look to three things:

1. More QH than App in the pedigree (not the case for your horse);
2. Conformation (you say not Quarterloosa conformation)
3. Color - less a factor: Some Quarterloosas luck out with good color; but the more you dilute, the less color in most cases.

Thanks much! I'm mostly kidding about the quarterloosa title (since she looks like an old school ideal appy painting I found online once - leggy, hardy, not much tail, athletic for days in tons of areas) but am always on the lookout for another opinion on her pedigree. There's a picture of her on page 2 of this thread, at 20 years old in a dressage clinic. She's a cool, cool mare.

And, she's had one all-appy foal, with another in the works. If we could just get into blankets or leopard instead of varnish roan, I'd be thrilled, but I'll take a copy of Kate any day, regardless of the pattern on the jacket. :D

[Sandy M]

i'm also not saying to stop loving your horse if it is a spotted QH, but lets stop breeding them. and let's call them for what they are.

i think as far as Joker B goes, the QH's of his time were not the ones of today, and i don't think those QH's back then were all so pure, anyway. So i think Tango qualifies as a foundation TYPE Appy. or he did. he passed away from cancer at 25. that photo is him 6 months before he died.


I totally agree. Like I said, AQHA couldn't quite figure out what a Quarter Horse was back then - '30s and '40s - and a lot of roan Apps were registered QH - and certainly they were Foundation type working horses, not herefords at halter. Nothing wrong with that... Appaloosas as a breed in this country were nearly "extinct" in the early 20th Century, and it is only through the efforts of men like Claude Thompson, Peckinpah and George Hatley that the breed was restablished. In a situation like that, it was inevitable that "other" blood had to be used to re-refine a breed corrupted by draft crossing, etc. Still - as I said, THEY used primarily Arab and TB - not bulldog QH types.

Look at me - I love Foundation and one side of the baby I bought IS Foundation - but the other side is Arab (which is more compatible to my mind than AQHA). A whole new experience for me (or it will be next year). I've ridden Arabs and half-Arabs and have no problem with them, but I've never owned one, let alone one that will be over 16 hands. ROFLOL!!!! (The vet who did the PPE said to me, "Wow, so you've combined two of the smartest breeds - Arab and Appaloosa.....you're going to have a lot fun." There was a funny tone to her voice when she said "fun.........."

[Sandy M]

Thanks much! I'm mostly kidding about the quarterloosa title (since she looks like an old school ideal appy painting I found online once - leggy, hardy, not much tail, athletic for days in tons of areas) but am always on the lookout for another opinion on her pedigree. There's a picture of her on page 2 of this thread, at 20 years old in a dressage clinic. She's a cool, cool mare.

I think one of the things that REALLY made me hair-tearing-out-bomb-threat angry was when they changed the symbolic ApHC Appaloosa from the classic George Phippen painting - a leggy, high neck set, middle of the road saddle horse conformation, with a hock length tail, to a painting by Orren Mixer - TOTAL beefy QH with a blanket. AAARRRRGGGH!!!! I HATE my ApHC membership card. Since I'm not showing, I didn't even renew last year, nor will I renew next year unless my local club FORCES me to in order to keep official recognition (You have to have a certain number of "National" members.)

[cosmos mom]

I haven't renewed either. I hate the halter QH with a blanket look, hell, a lot of QH people don't even like that type of horse! Why can't they use a pic of a true appy type horse?

[colleent]

yes, i have agreed not to renew. i might even join up with the foundation app club. i also was disgusted with the photo of the "ideal" app. Come on! give me a rat tail anyday.

[Sandy M]

yes, i have agreed not to renew. i might even join up with the foundation app club. i also was disgusted with the photo of the "ideal" app. Come on! give me a rat tail anyday.


Some years ago, I felt SOOO sorry for a poor kid at a horse trial. She had a really cute rat-tailed blue roan Appy mare, about 15.2 or 15.3. She had started what promised to be a really nice training level dressage test, when someone got dumped on cross-country and the horse came TEARING through the middle of the dressage arena. Her nice little mare didn't blow, but stopped in her tracks and that tail went STRAIGHT up. It had about 6 hairs on it. The judge let her start over without penalty, and the horse never blew, but it was obviously tense (which it had not been before the incident) and went through the entire test with that tail totally vertical. Funny, but sad for her. I think the judge made SOME allowance - her score wasn't bad, but it had promised to be a really excellent score. In that case, probably wouldn't have looked so bad if it had been a flowy tail - just an "Arab" moment, but with that rat tail.......

I needlepointed a pillow of the Phippen Appaloosa and have it on my bed.

[cosmos mom]

There was a discussion on the dressage board about horses holding their tail. I think a few people said that it was always due to back pain, but i think a lot of appys hold their tails in normal work, not over their butt, but swaying with the motion. Does anyone else find this? You can see Cosmo doing this in my photos below.

[Sandy M]

Any horse of any breed that is working through its back and is relaxed should have a slightly swinging (not wringing) tail.

[trubandloki]

Sandy M - I've got to know. She doesn't look like a quarterloosa, she doesn't act like a quarterloosa... but is my mare considered a quarterloosa?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/r+southern+bars

I'll... TRY... to love her just the same if she's a quarterloosa, but I'm making no promises... :D


That web site says my Appy's dad is a QH and his papers say otherwise. Weird.

[Sandy M]

That web site says my Appy's dad is a QH and his papers say otherwise. Weird.


That website allows anyone to mess with the pedigrees. I wouldn't take it as bible. I actually entered most of the pedigree for my present horse's sire from an extended pedigree given to me by the breeder.

[shawneeAcres]

Just saw this and being a PROUD breeders of SPOTTED apps, had to chime in. First off, spots are not guaranteed in breeding apps, far from it! But the genetics of appaloosa breeding are much better understood today than they used to be and there ARE ways of "guaranteeing" you will get at least app characteristics, and most likely SOME form of appaloosa coloring. My stallion is a SNowcap which means he will ALWAYS thrw one copy of the appaloosa lp gene regardless of what he is bred to. However, the outcrossing that the ApHC has allowed has created even more possibility of "solids" in the breed as the outcrosses at best are heterozygous for lp and many are born solid. But you can have a 100% appaloosa that has generations of spotted/colored apps in the pedigree and is solid! And to me they ARE appaloosas. I prefer to have a colored app (although one of my mares IS a solid app, who is half TB) and so we purposefully bought a stallion that will produce color. We also don't breed the "QH" type but we try and produce a "sporthorse" type of appaloosa. Of course, to each his own, and I won't "knock" the AP type breeders, if thats what they want then so be it!

[Sandy M]

Just saw this and being a PROUD breeders of SPOTTED apps, had to chime in. First off, spots are not guaranteed in breeding apps, far from it! But the genetics of appaloosa breeding are much better understood today than they used to be and there ARE ways of "guaranteeing" you will get at least app characteristics, and most likely SOME form of appaloosa coloring. My stallion is a SNowcap which means he will ALWAYS thrw one copy of the appaloosa lp gene regardless of what he is bred to. However, the outcrossing that the ApHC has allowed has created even more possibility of "solids" in the breed as the outcrosses at best are heterozygous for lp and many are born solid. But you can have a 100% appaloosa that has generations of spotted/colored apps in the pedigree and is solid! And to me they ARE appaloosas. I prefer to have a colored app (although one of my mares IS a solid app, who is half TB) and so we purposefully bought a stallion that will produce color. We also don't breed the "QH" type but we try and produce a "sporthorse" type of appaloosa. Of course, to each his own, and I won't "knock" the AP type breeders, if thats what they want then so be it!


I have no problems with solid Apps (I may not buy one out of preference for color, but I don't say they aren't Appaloosas) if their pedigree contains a sufficient percentage of Appaloosa blood. But I can't be so charitable towards those producing the QH type - they are diluting the Appaloosa blood in their horses pedigrees well beyond the point where the horses can truly be considered Appaloosas. Those breeders should apply to AQHA to be accepted like the Paints or as some sort of appendix of "Spotted QHs." (just kidding - but with more truth than I like).

[GansMyMan]

Am I the only one who noticed the gelding symbol on FAHR's website registry? LOL, I guess it's true, X marks the spot where whence it was...

[enjoytheride]

My horse is 1/2 appy 1/2 TB. He got his crappy feet from the TB, the two inch think mane and floor length tail from the TB, the big ugly head from the Appy, and the "want to beat him with a skillet" attitude from the Appy! He has no spots, although he does have the appy eyes, and he is very good at rolling these eyes when he's in a mood.

He is totally dead broke, but he thinks that horses have an opinion. He'll do anything in the world if it's fun or if it's his idea, but God help you if you doesn't feel like working today.

People ask what's wrong with my horse and I say "oh, he's half appy." They look at me, shake their heads, and mumble about how sorry they are!

Had I gotten him as a young horse before he had some poor training he would have been one hell of an animal. Now I think he's close to retiring and I'd do anything in the world to have him do his appy "aint gonna do that never" plant his feet in the ground in front of something he doesn't agree with.

[mrsbwayne]

I just got my first copy of the Appaloosa journal... man, there are a lot of solids in here, wow... I only know the local breeders, and their appys are full of spots! This IS weird!!
Sarina

[snokat]

Not to hijack, but my horse was a total "Thoroloosa." We think his mom (the Appy) was a test mare for a TB stud. He's on the pedigree website as "Apple Sox." I need to find his papers so I can fill out the Mom's side. Dad's side popped up automatically. Take away his spots and he was all fine-boned TB. He was awesome. If I can find a pic, I will post. :-)

[fullmoon fever]

Not to hijack, but my horse was a total "Thoroloosa." We think his mom (the Appy) was a test mare for a TB stud.

Secretariat's first foal (the colt, "First Secretary") was out of an App test mare. :D

[colleent]

My horse is 1/2 appy 1/2 TB. He got his crappy feet from the TB, the two inch think mane and floor length tail from the TB, the big ugly head from the Appy, and the "want to beat him with a skillet" attitude from the Appy! He has no spots, although he does have the appy eyes, and he is very good at rolling these eyes when he's in a mood.

He is totally dead broke, but he thinks that horses have an opinion. He'll do anything in the world if it's fun or if it's his idea, but God help you if you doesn't feel like working today.

People ask what's wrong with my horse and I say "oh, he's half appy." They look at me, shake their heads, and mumble about how sorry they are!

Had I gotten him as a young horse before he had some poor training he would have been one hell of an animal. Now I think he's close to retiring and I'd do anything in the world to have him do his appy "aint gonna do that never" plant his feet in the ground in front of something he doesn't agree with.

I don't think Apps have BIG UGLY HEADS, or are ugly at all. I always say, you have to be smarter than the app, and when he figures that you are, he'll do anything for you. and it's proven to be right for every appy i have owned.

[RHdobes563]

Here is a picture of my cousin's "Quarterloosa." (I am NOT attempting to sell this horse for her. IN FACT, all of you run FAR AWAY from this horse!!)

http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=819571

He could pass for a breeding stock Paint, too.

[shawneeAcres]

The "big ugly head" syndrome came from the UNFORTUNATE fact that after the US government (in their INFINITE wisdom:rolleyes: ) took the WONDERFUL appaloosas from the Nez Perce and offered them at public auction, as the indians were no longer "allowed" to own horses. Of course then every Tom Dick and Harry started breedin CRAP to the great appaloosas, to put :spots: on. All kinds of indiscriminate work type horses (nothing against drafts ehre, but they DON'T belong in the app breed!) were interbred. I ahve a wonderful book about the efforts made to reestablish the appaloosa horse as it was (as much as COULD be done) by selecting good individuals and then infusing some outside blood of arabs (primarily, Ferras was a prominent arab hrose used to reestablish the appaloosa breed) as well as other outcrossing to some TB's and QH's. This is the historical reason for the allowed three breeds in outcrossing to apps by ApHC. However, they SHOULD have closed the books to outcrossing once the "type" was reestablihed, in my opinion. But they didn't and now I fear they never will. I do outcross to TB's, but would be happy if they closed the books and would jsut breed with what exists in the registry at this point. Yes, the QH's have dominated the appalosa breed, but the GOOD news is there are breeders out there trying to breed foundation type appaloosas as well as sport types. My program is based on foundation appaloosa and TB bloodlines, I prefer no QH blood (of course there IS some in most apps if you go far enough back BUT the older racing style of QH doesn't really bother me, it;s the Modern Halter types that I stay away from). I never said I approve of the QH type, I jsut RECOGNIZE that there are breeders (and LOTS of them) that want to go that route. More likely would be an outbranch of appaloosa breeders trying to breed a different type (such as the ApSHA has tried to create).

[Delighted]

I think one of the things that REALLY made me hair-tearing-out-bomb-threat angry was when they changed the symbolic ApHC Appaloosa from the classic George Phippen painting - a leggy, high neck set, middle of the road saddle horse conformation, with a hock length tail, to a painting by Orren Mixer - TOTAL beefy QH with a blanket. AAARRRRGGGH!!!! I HATE my ApHC membership card. Since I'm not showing, I didn't even renew last year, nor will I renew next year unless my local club FORCES me to in order to keep official recognition (You have to have a certain number of "National" members.)

I think that's probably the image I'm thinking of - it was the "ideal" appy for a while, before it became a QH with spots. I always thought that Kate looked pretty close to that ideal appy - but, of course, I'm massively biased.

And on the tail.. Kate would hold it STRAIGHT UP when she went to the bathroom... in flat classes... for ages after she was finished (must not muss the tail, you know). So we'd go around, happily trotting about, with Kate's big FLAG of a tail up in the air, all, "Look at me! I went potty!! In a flat class!!" She cracks me up, that mare...

I haven't bothered to register Edward yet. He's gelded, so I figure if I ever neeeeed him registered, I'll just pay hardship or whatever associated fees and get it done. I just haven't felt that need yet. :D

[enjoytheride]

Well, when we go out XC schooling or trail riding, people ask if he's a walking horse! It's not ugly, it is just very large.

[shakeytails]

I'm not a big fan of Appaloosas, but gosh I hate what they've done to them. I clicked on the website to see the "new" ideal Appy, I much prefered the old picture from the 70's and 80's. The old style, IMO, was a much smarter, hardier and more versatile animal with attitude (sometimes good, sometimes not!).

Not that my opinion matters, but I think if non-characteristic animals are going to be shown, they should have their own division competing only against each other and earn points accordingly. I would think that having a "Non-Characteristic Appaloosa High-Point Western Pleasure Horse" would not carry the same prestige as "Appaloosa High-Point Western Pleasure Horse".

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Prozac Pony, a CPO registered Appy, prefers to be referred to as a "Stealth Appy". He says that he carries his spots in his brain and his character, and feels that there is no need to flaunt them to the world and make the other horses feel inferior because they are unspotted.

He has a lovely head, a cute butt, and a luxurious mane & tail.

He reminds you that Stealth Appies have feelings, too, and they need to be loffed and given many carrots and treats.

Below is him as a yearling, with his mom (left) and dad (right).

[Penthilisea]

I follow a app breeder who breeds for LOUD foals, with a live foal cam!
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=ajacobs

I find it really interesting to read more about the genetics of color, as well as a breeder's reactions to current trends, especially considering they DO show their youngstock against solid app's at rather high levels.

[CowgirlDressage]

Sandy M! Congrats! My first appy was a bright chestnut with a blanket, and I've always drooled after them since... somehow, I keep getting varnish roans (or chestnuts appies WITHOUT the blanket..). He's gorgeous!

Maybe check out the JG Apps as well. My mare was bred to Wap's Rolls Royce this summer, but reabsorbed late in the season. I know one or two of their boys is more dressage-y, and they seem to have a huge network of available offspring (example: I was telling the owner about William, who is out of a Wap's Spot 2 daughter. She paused for a second, thought about it, and knew exactly who William's dam was, who owned her and where she went, and then could remember William as a child, as well. This from a horse bred in Texas, by a WB breeder - it seems like she knows where ALL of the WS2 "kids" are, which is massively impressive to me, at least, since I'm doing well to remember my 3 geldings' names on some days.. :D )

I loff talking with Jerry and Ginny...and they do know their 'boys' offspring fairly well & where they live & what they're doing. She tries pretty hard to keep up with them. Pretty impressive to me as well. If you tell them what you would like from a foal and tell them all the good & not so good on your mare they will recommend the stallion they feel would best help your mare produce the foal you're after and I really appreciate that. They are standing 6 now with Bentley added to the '07 roster, and he's snowcap as well which is a lovely plus for those of us with TB mares who want the color in our foals.

[colleent]

i am not against solid colored apps, that have colored parents. b/c you know that is a true app and if bred will throw color. and it happens a lot that very spotted parents throw a solid baby. what i am against is QH's pretending to be apps.

[appaloosalady]

i am not against solid colored apps, that have colored parents. b/c you know that is a true app and if bred will throw color. and it happens a lot that very spotted parents throw a solid baby. what i am against is QH's pretending to be apps.

A solid app will not throw color unless its foal receives a color gene from the other parent. App color genetics is not like pinto.

[colleent]

well with two highly spotted parents, one would think they have the gene.

[appaloosalady]

Nope. It is dominant, like grey. If the gene is there, color will be there. If it's not, it's not. The loudest colored apps are very often only carrying one copy of the color gene, therefore can pass on a non-color gene to their foals.

[mrsbwayne]

I dunno about the genetic stuff, some of it makes sense and some doesn't. I've seen a fewspot sire a solid baby, and that's not supposed to happen. But it only happens with one leopard mare, so it might be something with the mare.

There was one other weird thing that happened at the local ranch, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. Something that's not supposed to happen, according to the genetic theories, and it did.

Appys are always a surprise I guess! I wish Allegra hadn't lost her baby, I was looking forward to seeing what came out! I just know that baby was going to have spots on it, and I could say HA! Spots from a solid! haha.. well, now we have to wait until next year. :D
Sarina

[Melelio]

I hate what some breeders are doing to the Appy breed, too. Just as much as I hate the QH folks turning QHs into something you couldn't tell apart from the CANTER cuties :mad:

On the color genetics topic, I have a CPO gelding. His mom was a loud black leopard mare who only threw solids on black QH stallions, mine being one of the 2 she did. Her others are all lovely shades and patterns. Go figure...

My other App is a dun leopard with a beautiful head, mane and tail. Too bad he is sometimes brainless :rolleyes:

[Huntertwo]

Go look at the horses here, you might find what you wanted:

www.confettifarms.com (http://www.confettifarms.com)

(But you can't have Magic Marker - I already bought him!)

Those babies just can't get any cuter....:yes:

[mrsbwayne]

Hmmm.... I think I ought to introduce Miss Allegra to Oreo! He's hot!! :D

Sarina

[summerhorse]

Patterns are inherited separately from the Lp gene (which causes the patterns to be expressed). A horse without any pattern genes (of consequence) will have charactertistics and some roaning or snowflaking. (how much depends on the horse's makeup of suppressor or color booster genes, like sabino or other non appaloosa white pattern genes).

You can have homozygous LpLp horses that have no pattern and will not pass on a pattern. You can have lplp (no Lp at all) horses that are homozygous or heterozygous for pattern (PATN#PATN# or PATN#Patn, there are probably at least 3 different pattern genes). They will NOT show any pattern at all but if bred to a horse that carries and passes on an Lp gene (even if the horse is not patterned itself, it can even appear basically solid if is has characteristics only) and the solid horse passes on a PATN gene then you have a colored baby. And if the Lp horse IS characteristics only it appears you have a "crop out" from two solid parents. Of course it didn't REALLY crop out of nowhere, the genetics were there, just not expressed.

BUT if you want color your best bet is to breed color to color, avoid sabinos and do NOT outcross. If you do use a fewspot or snowcap and breed the result back to at the minimum a heterozygote.

If it is spotted it is heterozygous for Lp, if few spot or snowcap it is homozygous. You really don't know the PATN status without studying the parents and its progeny. And sometimes then you can't be sure for years!

Anyway it makes me sick to see what the show people have done to the appaloosa "breed" (actually just a registry with open books).

If they closed the books I wouldn't mind all appies competing together because the solids WOULD be appies. the color pattern gene pool is being seriously diluted by all this outcrossing and breeding heterozygotes to solid (no Lp, probably no PATN) and breeding the results to solid horses. And once it is gone it is gone. Thank goodness for the people out there who value color and are still breeding real appies.

[Simbalism]

Sandy M, Was reading thru this post and was interested to see that you had a Toby line app. I also had one. He had been a breeding stallion until about age 7(from what I got of his history)I purchased as a 10yo. He was (as I called him) a midget just slightly over 15h, but he didn't know that. He had a high opinion of himself. I wish I had owned him from the time he was young. He had learned some bad manners when he was a stallion. It took me awhile to get them taken care of. He was a good boy for me, but he had learned that if he didn't want to do something it was next to impossible to "make" him. He was a black and white snow cap with an ok thickness mane, and a nice thick long tail. He had such a personality. He was very hardy and could jump very well and had nice gaits.He died last fall and man do I miss the bugger.

[Valentina_32926]

Spotted colorful appy's are most likely in Europe (that's where my "calico colored" girl is - Germany. (Blank with spots, and a star).

[Sandy M]

Sandy M, Was reading thru this post and was interested to see that you had a Toby line app. I also had one. He had been a breeding stallion until about age 7(from what I got of his history)I purchased as a 10yo. He was (as I called him) a midget just slightly over 15h, but he didn't know that. He had a high opinion of himself. I wish I had owned him from the time he was young. He had learned some bad manners when he was a stallion. It took me awhile to get them taken care of. He was a good boy for me, but he had learned that if he didn't want to do something it was next to impossible to "make" him. He was a black and white snow cap with an ok thickness mane, and a nice thick long tail. He had such a personality. He was very hardy and could jump very well and had nice gaits.He died last fall and man do I miss the bugger.


My old Toby-line horse was named Chico. He was a hair under 16 hands, such a dark blue roan he looked black and white, HUGE blanket to the withers with big spots and lots of them peacock spots, lightning marks on his legs, and the "bear paw" print on both shoulders. His mane was average and his tail not only long and thick, but slightly wavy (did a Morgan get over the fence way back when? LOL). He was short-legged and big bodied, but BOY! could he jump. I won a preliminary horse trial on him the 2nd year I owned him and he basically took me around: said, "Hold on and point me at the jumps...." His sire was Toby K, whom I believe was a snowcap. Chico was the sweetest and was the horse I always offered when someone wanted to take a friend or beginner on a trail ride or the like, because he would always take care of them and was the perfect gentleman. He developed glaucoma in his right eye when he was 17, and after that I was not permitted to event him. I played around with him for a year or so, then found him a good home with a family. When they had to move from California to Kentucky, they paid more to ship him to Kentucky than they had paid to purchase him from me, which was very reassuring about how much they cared for him. They called me the day before he was to ship, so that I could come and say goodbye. Nice people. I ran into them some years later, and they said he had gone totally blind when he was 24 or 25, and they had to put him down. Very sad. That was around 1985. I still think of him.

[42 Spots]

Is my boy a Quarterloosa? I can't find him in All Breed Pedigrees, but here are the pedigrees from his sire (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mr+executive) and dam (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dudes+bow).

[cosmos mom]

Is my boy a Quarterloosa? I can't find him in All Breed Pedigrees, but here are the pedigrees from his sire (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mr+executive) and dam (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dudes+bow).

I would say yes. He has a lot of QH blood top and bottom. The picture of his grand sire is the classic QH With Spots look that has been discussed here. I bet he's still nice though! Is he spotty?

[Casper W. W.]

The Appaloosa breed is going to "hell in a handbasket". With all the out crossing to QH, TBreds, Arabs, etc. we are loosing the true Appaloosa that George Hatley loved. Heck, my Appaloosa was very traditional looking -- but, he had a long tail to the ground so somewhere in his past he had a QH relative, BUT he was colored.

If I wanted a solid stock horse -- I would buy a good grade (QHs have too many things wrong right now).

If Appaloosas keep out-crossing, they run the risk of bringing in genetic problems from other breeds. There are now Appaloosa carrying the "grey gene" and they are prone to grey horse tumors. This is a recent occurence.

[42 Spots]

I would say yes. He has a lot of QH blood top and bottom. The picture of his grand sire is the classic QH With Spots look that has been discussed here. I bet he's still nice though! Is he spotty?

Alas, this is sad news for me.:no: Yes, he's spotty: his registration papers list him as a buckskin, but I think he's more of a bay dun with dorsal stripe through mane and tail and blanket with...42 spots! He also has white sclera, mottled skin, and striped hooves. He is very sweet,forgiving and tolerant of just about anything. I'll still love him, even if he's a Quarterloosa!

[cosmos mom]

Alas, this is sad news for me.:no: Yes, he's spotty: his registration papers list him as a buckskin, but I think he's more of a bay dun with dorsal stripe through mane and tail and blanket with...42 spots! He also has white sclera, mottled skin, and striped hooves. He is very sweet,forgiving and tolerant of just about anything. I'll still love him, even if he's a Quarterloosa!


He sounds pretty! Hey, Mine is 37.5% Appaloosa, but is often mistaken for a foundation bloodline horse because of his look. I love the look of foundation Appys- so I'm more drawn to that type, but a nice horse is a nice horse!

[Sandy M]

Alas, this is sad news for me.:no: Yes, he's spotty: his registration papers list him as a buckskin, but I think he's more of a bay dun with dorsal stripe through mane and tail and blanket with...42 spots! He also has white sclera, mottled skin, and striped hooves. He is very sweet,forgiving and tolerant of just about anything. I'll still love him, even if he's a Quarterloosa!

well......at least you can proudly say, "Sure, he's got a lot of QH in him, but obviously the Appy part of his breeding is dominant, thank goodness!!!" ....
and if he were a mare you could SWEAR you would breed him to a Foundation stallion so that the offspring would be 3/4 Appaloosa, etc. LOL

[Auventera Two]

Nope. It is dominant, like grey. If the gene is there, color will be there. If it's not, it's not. The loudest colored apps are very often only carrying one copy of the color gene, therefore can pass on a non-color gene to their foals.

Really neat info appaloosalady! Thank you for that! That's very very interesting! :yes:

[colleent]

just b/c an app has a nice long tail does not mean he got it from QH blood. there are exceptions to everything, and it is possible for an app to have a nice tail. did you not see our Tango? Page 1 of this thread. his tail was so thick and lush and HEAVY, it was frustrating to take care of it. i always had to braid it before the farrier came, it was in the way. also could have been from Arab blood, or even Mustang that might have crossed in there way back. you never know..

[nightsong]

42 spots, if you want to know if he's really buckskin, you can get a test for about $25. Two places I know of that do it are the University of California at Davis and Pet DNA.

[TJ_Rider]

My horse is a quarter horse Appy with no spots and he is the best jumper. He is only 15.1 hh and can jump 4 ft, and he loves it. We currently show at Spruce Meadows and he places in the ribbons. Spots or no spots its the inside that counts!

[darkmoonlady]

I follow a app breeder who breeds for LOUD foals, with a live foal cam!
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=ajacobs


They do breed lovely horses however like a lot of appy raisers it seems quarter horses with spots are a trend no one can stop. Its a shame, I really dig the old style appy of thirty or forty years ago, but I guess the times they are a changing....

[Sandy M]

My horse is a quarter horse Appy with no spots and he is the best jumper. He is only 15.1 hh and can jump 4 ft, and he loves it. We currently show at Spruce Meadows and he places in the ribbons. Spots or no spots its the inside that counts!


That's absolutely fine, and each horse should be judged on its own merits. BUT.... what we Appy lovers rail against is: There is a breed called Quarter Horse. Registry established 1938. For years there was a big hoo-hah about pinto coloring, and the APHA was formed as a separate entity. Now, again, many years later, AQHA has decided that outcrop white in horses of AQHA pedigree is okay.

Appaloosas are an entirely separate breed, and the breed ideal - taken from the Phippen painting - is nothing like a QH in conformation. However, since Appies almost ceased to exist as a breed, they had to be recreated, taking the best of what Appaloosas could be found and breeding in Arab, TB and some QH. Registry also established in 1938.

Now, the AQHA people have taken over ApHC, and except for the few that qualify for Foundation status, too many so-called "Appaloosas" are 7/8 QH, with no color or ANY Appaloosa characteristics. Doesn't mean they aren't decent, even exceptional horses, BUT THEY ARE NOT APPALOOSAS. There is no need to turn a different breed - essentially a rare breed that was nearly destroyed about 100 years ago - and turn it into an AQHA clone.

ApHC, supposedly devoted to "saving" the breed, is now it's principal destroyer. Appaloosa registrations have been waaaaay down for many years, and most people who are directly asked say it's because "they just look like QH and have no color, so I might as well buy a QH."

ApHC used to have a double-tiered registration system. If a horse was of Appaloosa parents and had color, regular registration. If it was from Appaloosa parents or an acceptable outcross but had no color or characteristics, it was given "ID" papers. It could be used as part of a breeding program, but could not be shown or raced as an Appaloosa. Then the big time breeders moaned, and groaned, and carried on (and put their money where it counted) and now we have CPO, and horses that are more QH than Appaloosa and have no color, no characteristics.... but are "Appaloosas" and can be shown and race. Sigh. Money talks. But fewer and fewer people are breeding/buying Appaloosas. It's becoming very incestuous and if you look at the World and National show results, it's the same little group of people winning, because if they DON'T win, they let ApHC know their displeasure. ApHC used to have a "dressage suitability" class. When they brought in USEF/USDF qualified judges for those classes, the "regulars" didn't win. So now we no longer have dressage suitability, we have "Hunter in Hand.".... I could go on and on. I'll stop now and let someone else bitch. LOL

[shawneeAcres]

Actually, there are DEFINITE apps in the QH registry (in the early days that is). Just take a look at the pedigree of Bright Eyes Brother:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bright+eyes+brother

both his sire and dam were REGISTERED QH's! And they produced an app! In those days often hroses that had very minimal lp characteristics and perhaps just "roaning" were not recognized as apps. So there is definitely a reasonable amount of app blood in the good old QH (could only make it better!)

[Sandy M]

Actually, there are DEFINITE apps in the QH registry (in the early days that is). Just take a look at the pedigree of Bright Eyes Brother:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bright+eyes+brother

both his sire and dam were REGISTERED QH's! And they produced an app! In those days often hroses that had very minimal lp characteristics and perhaps just "roaning" were not recognized as apps. So there is definitely a reasonable amount of app blood in the good old QH (could only make it better!)


Yup. The Peavy line also had a roan mare reg. as AQHA who produced Appy foals, and of course, there was Blue Vitriol, Joker B's dam. Whoops! Of course, because of the need to "recreate" the breed, there is some QH in there, BEB being an outstanding example. FAHR doesn't like him - despite the fact that I believe he falls within their "Foundation Sires" ApHC registration numbers (they had to pick a cut off somewhere) - because they feel all those high white socks and white faces indicate some pinto/paint in there.

[mrsbwayne]

Someone take a peek at Allegra and tell me if she looks QHish or not. She's out of leopards, from a long line of Appys. She's not as tall as some of the other appys, I have seen on the foundation pages, but to me she's appy. I"m curious what others think. I can take a better picture, that's an old one, she has a hat on. :lol: And also she is preggers in that picture.

I was going to breed Allegra to a grey w/b last year and everybody said NOOOOOOO!! hahahaha.. So she was bred to the chestnut and she lost it. :( But I think she would be a nice cross with a w/b who would put long legs on the baby, I LOVE her gaits, she reminds me of my TB Hershey, but not a nut job in the brain department. "Opinionated" yes, :lol: but not a nutjob!

Now Miss Brandine is a QH bred to an Appy. ::ducking:: But.. I"m not going to show him/her or anything like that, I think Brandine is such a cool horse, nothing phases her, easy to train - maybe a typical QH, I don't know, she's the only one I've ever had. But she's great! I wanted a Brandine with Spots, so she's bred to a fewspot, so Jr should have some colorrrrrr!! :D This is my first horsie baby ever. After this Brandine can retire to the trail, because she doesn't need to have more babies, but I will breed Allegra, because she should have NICE babies, the ones she has already thrown are really, really colorful and sweet. Like their mama!
Sarina

[colleent]

allegra has Appy feet, not teacup QH feet, so i would say you can see a few things that are Appy, but the pic is not exactly lined up so you can see the entire profile of her.

[zagafi]

I asked earlier in the thread but I think it was missed--what qualifies a horse as a "foundation" App? Is it simply % of App blood, is it specific lines, or...?

[lilblackhorse]

amen sandy m! You know, I hadn't really paid attention when I went home in the last few years (dealing with an ailing parent), but now that you mention it, the sign IS different in front of the breed registry building.

I remember being so excited when we moved to Moscow in 1974, because they were the hometown of the appaloosa. They used to have the nice App picture in their sign--no more.

I recall now that I owned a solid appy for a while when I was a teen, she was a pain in the ass, and was sold to a university prof who did range management studies. She was great for him. Nothing wrong with solid Apps, like you say,, it's the dilution of the breed, which is inexcusable.

This is the same feeling I have for the Morgans, which now look like glorified Arabs. Ick. If you want a QH, buy one, if you want an Arab, buy one. Just don't mess up the other indigenous breeds which have (had ) character.

[2Mares]

I agree 100% with the OP. I showed at an appy show once several years ago and thought my girl would finally be with her own kind while not sticking out like a sore thumb. Wrong! There were maybe 2 other colored appys there, but they had very small blankets (like three spots on their rump) so my leopard still stuck out. I was just there for a QH show a few weeks before while a friend showed and I did not see much difference between the two shows. After lapping everyone several times (she tracks and covers ground, oh the horror) and getting ice cream sprinkles, firecrackers, and toilet paper instead of ribbons, I hightailed her spotted behind right back to the hunter ring where her movement fit in. She's a semi-quarterloosa (grandsire is req QH), but she has all the appy characteristics minus actually having a mane and tail. She also has TB from mom and she's registered Colorado Rangerbred so I just refer to her as my registered mutt. :D

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2205673770094185958sKvxod

Cute appy Sabovee, you should have taken her.

[Sandy M]

I asked earlier in the thread but I think it was missed--what qualifies a horse as a "foundation" App? Is it simply % of App blood, is it specific lines, or...?


I'm not sure what percentage of Appy blood the ApHC requires for "Foundation" status. I'm sure it is less than FAHR. FAHR requires that a horse be 3/4 Appaloosa by blood to qualify for registration. FAHR starts with the ApHC registry stud books, and designated all horses with certain registration numbers (the earlier numbers) as Foundation. After that date/number, any Qh/Arab/TB crosses are unacceptable as foundation. Essentially, to my mind, they said "the stud book closes HERE" which is something ApHC should have done long ago. You'd have to check FAHR's website for the exact time frame/registration numbers.

I think it is sadly ironic (though certainly good for the true Appy breeders) that now ApHC shows have (will have?) Foundation halter classes. In other words, they are admitting that the horses in the OTHER halter classes aren't really Appaloosas. *icon for shaking head*

[lilblackhorse]

http://www.appaloosajournal.com/ad/stalave/pages/thequest.html

this ain't no appy in my book...*sigh*

[Sandy M]

Okay, I went to the ApHC website and downloaded a couple of pages from the Handbook:

236. Foundation Pedigree Designation (FPD) Requirements:
A. To be eligible for FPD program, the horse must be registered with the ApHC. This option may also be done concurrently with the application for registration. A horse must also meet the following criteria:
1. A minimum of 73% (22) of its ancestors in the preceding four (4) generations must be registered with the ApHC,
2. There must be a minimum of three (3) of these ancestors on both sire and dam sides of the pedigree,
3. Any and All 'F' numbered horses within the preceding four (4) generations of the applicant horse's pedigree are to be considered 100% for FPD registration purposes, regardless of the parentage of those 'F' numbered horses,
4. Every 5 years, beginning in 2009, the mionimum percentage of eligibility will increase incrementally by requiring one additional horse in the preceding four generations of the applicant horse to be registered with ApHC; that is, 23 out of 30 beginning in 2009, then 24 out of 30 beginning in 2014, and so on.

I think the question comes with counting the generations. I believe FAHR counts them differently, and requires a full 75% of Appy blood. FAHR does require ApHC registration first, however.

[zagafi]

Thanks, Sandy! I'm going to do some looking--I *think* my girl qualifies but I'm not sure. She has a big dose of tb way back, but it's further back than 4 generations. She does have some QH, too, but I don't think it's a lot. Thanks again!

[zagafi]

Even though Prince Plaudit is in her 4th generation, she's got too large a dose of tb back there to qualify for Foundation. She's pretty close, though!

[summerhorse]

http://www.appaloosajournal.com/ad/stalave/pages/thequest.html

this ain't no appy in my book...*sigh*

And he's HYPP H/N to boot!

[Sandy M]

And he's HYPP H/N to boot!

Disgusting. Extreme QH (Impressive) conformation, no color, HYPP H/N... but he's an APPALOOSA !! (NOT!)

(and in the back of my mind, I have the impression that his sire, or a close relative of his sire, was put down at an early age because of soundness issues....I may be wrong...but I thought I saw that and wondered about what "issues" the horse might have had with that sort of breeding.)

[summerhorse]

Disgusting. Extreme QH (Impressive) conformation, no color, HYPP H/N... but he's an APPALOOSA !! (NOT!)

(and in the back of my mind, I have the impression that his sire, or a close relative of his sire, was put down at an early age because of soundness issues....I may be wrong...but I thought I saw that and wondered about what "issues" the horse might have had with that sort of breeding.)

Actually his sire (Im. Andrew) was in his late teens I believe when he was put down. Not OLD but not young either. He was a weird looking horse. Don't know if he was H/N or H/H but I would suspect that had something to do with his soundness "issues"! But I don't know for sure. He sure did his part spreading HYPP around though. =(

[Sandy M]

Even though Prince Plaudit is in her 4th generation, she's got too large a dose of tb back there to qualify for Foundation. She's pretty close, though!


If she's that "close," then presumably if you bred her to a Foundation bred stallion .... say Butterwap Confetti or some of the JG stallions (not all, some are 1/2 TB)....the result would be FPD eligible.

[zagafi]

If she's that "close," then presumably if you bred her to a Foundation bred stallion .... say Butterwap Confetti or some of the JG stallions (not all, some are 1/2 TB)....the result would be FPD eligible.

Heck, even if the baby weren't eligible, it would be gorgeous. Butterwap Confetti is a hottie and, while I'm certainly biased, my girl's a looker, too(she's in my profile).

If I had some spare $$ lying about Spiced Hot Chocklate might just have to come live with me. Ye gods, that baby is beautiful!!

[secretariat]

Real Apps look (and perform) like this http://www.teamceoeventing.com/directory.html

Or like Mood Indigo, the 6th horse down http://www.teamceoeventing.com/horses.html -- 16'3", 1500 pounds, 100% Rangerbred with no outcrosses on his recorded pedigree.

[fullmoon fever]

I was going to breed Allegra to a grey w/b last year and everybody said NOOOOOOO!! Sarina

I bred my App stallion to mother/daughter Arab mares - both grey. They produced two of the loudest colored colts I'd ever seen. When they shed their baby fuzz they were BOTH black and white leopards! :eek: They never grayed out and stayed true black and white. Those were the only leopards my stud ever produced.

[Proud To Be Spotted]

And he's HYPP H/N to boot!

Look how many H/H stallions are in the journal this month. The ApHC should have jumped on that years ago, and closed the books in the 80's.

I was going to send this thread to the journal, but I cant figure out how to? How did you know the thread number?

[Sandy M]

Heck, even if the baby weren't eligible, it would be gorgeous. Butterwap Confetti is a hottie and, while I'm certainly biased, my girl's a looker, too(she's in my profile).

If I had some spare $$ lying about Spiced Hot Chocklate might just have to come live with me. Ye gods, that baby is beautiful!!


Well, I got Magic Marker, but he's staying "home" in Bakersfield until he's about 3.

Meanwhile I have to find a retirement home or sponsor for my present guy (see profile). Any NoCal Appaloosa lovers interested in sponsoring a slightly arthritic 2nd/3rd level schoolmaster and trail horse extraordinaire? (He's in Walnut Creek).