Wow. Have you seen this "blacklist" of horse adopters?

[pwynnnorman]

http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/SWAP_Black_List.htm

Interesting, huh? I got a mare from them--wonderful companion for my stallion for 3 years before gray horse tumors took her away. I got some curious emails about the mare a few years later, so when I noticed this link on the site, I actually went to make sure my name wasn't on it! I'm HONESTLY not sure if this is a good idea or a bad one, but whatever way you lean, perhaps it's good to know about?

[3fatponies]

Didn't look at the link yet, but it's standard for rescues/shelters to keep a "DNA" (Do Not Adopt) lists. In fact, you can find statewide lists on Yahoo groups. Usually, the reasons for applying the DNA label are listed or discussed, and individual groups can decide if they also would refuse to adopt to that person or not. :)

[Laurierace]

I think that SWAP and their officers should be at the head of their own blacklist. Ultimately it is their greed that led to the names that follow. Bet that isn't the response you were looking for huh!?! Seriously, I am on my last nerve with some of these rescues. Some of their horses are more refugees than rescuees IMO.

[Trixie]

I'm somewhat surprised they haven't been sued for slander - since a lot of that hasn't been held up in court.

[tradewind]

I would NEVER adopt a horse from them...and I am very very pro adoption..there are a multitude of reasons, but as a for instance who in their right mind would adopt out 17 horses to the same person in less than a year and then complain that they were not taken care of properly.

[Aggie4Bar]

I read through a couple and noticed that Lone Star Equine Rescue and a local police department are also on their blacklist for taking possession of sick horses. Sounds to me like SWAP is more concerned with maintaining control of their horses than they are about doing what's best for those horses. Keeping a "Do not adopt" list is one thing, but 5 minutes perusing that website has me convinced SWAP is a bunch of psychos.

[pwynnnorman]

Actually, Laurierace, I really, truly am not sure how to consider this! It's good to know that DNAs are used in the adoption arena--too many kooks and abusers out there--but at the same time, I found myself CRINGING about the potential for slander and how it represents only one side's view.

[Trixie]

She is married to one of the worst rednecks in WV who does not care about animals at all and she become just like him.

I'm sorry we can no longer recommend _________ if you care about your horse and would prefer that none of the SWAP horses be moved using his transport because we are no longer allowing him on our farm. First of all, his prices are outrageous. Additionally, Terry came onto the women that worked for the program even though he's married making us all very uncomfortable about meeting him. He additionally had nothing but negative things to say about every person he picked up horses from and delivered to (about how they kept their horses), with that in mind we figured he was probably talking about us too, which later we found out he was telling people that we didn't care about the horses and didn't clean our stalls, which is just not true at all, we pay to have our stalls cleaned, so much so that no one else gets paid because we have to spend so much on the stalls and keeping the barn clean and to keep our stall cleaner happy and have our stalls cleaned daily.




Who wrote this? It reads like it was written by a child. No reputable horse rescue would ever publically slander people that aren't convicted in a court of law for fear of legal action - but I do love these two particular comments, they stuck out.

[Avra]

! I would think that if they have had that many problem adoptions, they are almost certainly doing something--or many things--wrong. I do agree that there probably needs to be some sort of DNA list, but I am not sure it needs to be publicized. And I would RUN, not walk, from that rescue. Those people are not just unprofessional, they are scary.

[jilltx]

Shock and awe. By the length of that list, I'd say they're not spending enough time doing background checks and follow-ups.

That list is unreal!

[fullmoon fever]

The last time this horse was here, she was fat, muscled up, well fed, all her health care done, had a beautiful wavy tail down to her feet, which is now broken off at her hock and shorter. This is a disgrace to the horse industry and to horse people that Emily did this to this horse

Uh, yeah. Horse abuse at it's worst...a shortened tail?

[Riva]

Actually, I think these SWAP people are nuts. I have no issues with a "blacklist" or a "DNA" list, in fact I think it is a good idea, but just put up the names and "call for more information" or something similar. There is absolutely no reason to put up what they did.

I'm surprised they haven't been sued for this as well. And the fact that they have two gov't entities on the list is absurd.

Not to mention, if they care so much, why is there adoption area so large. Many adoption agencies I know won't let an animal go beyond a certain mileage away from them. These people have adopted horses out all over the country! kinda insane, in my opinion.

[Czar]

Uh, yeah. Horse abuse at it's worst...a shortened tail?

Ha!

It never ceases to amaze me how crazy people can be and this:

she calls herself a Christian but she only uses that as a veil to hide behind when she wants to do her wrong doings against horses

What kind of a thing is that to say?! Is this a personal vendetta or actually about horses?

[MeredithTX]

Why did they adopt horses to all of these people without first checking references and accomodations?

[equusrocks]

:eek: I've never seen a 10K adoption horse before!!

Are they a bona fide not-for-profit????

[arabhorse2]

Hm, I wonder if any of the folks "blacklisted" know about this?

This is a major multiple libel lawsuit waiting to happen, IMO.

Oh yeah, and these people appear to be fruitbatting crazy, too.

[cowgirljenn]

A lot of rescues maintain internal DNAs - we do. BUT we would never publish ours, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

We also won't ban an adopter based on another rescue's DNA - we may check them out harder, but I've seen people turned down for reasons like 'He won't be spending enough time/day with his horse' or 'We don't like his boarding barn owner." or whatever.... We check out everything for ourselves.

[abrant]

nearly 100k for the value of all 3 horses

WOW. You can have ANY 3 horses on my farm for $100k... and they sure ain't rescues...

~Adrienne

[Sparky Boy]

OMG - I sold a horse to one of the people on that list several years ago. She bounced a check to me. I took her to court and she was suppose to make payments but never did. On top of all that I had to repo the horse and she was at least 300+ pounds underweight and living in a barbed wire sh*t filled pen. She was the saddest looking horse I've ever seen.

Wish I'd seen this list back then.

[HeyYouNags]

"I've never seen a 10K adoption horse before!!
Are they a bona fide not-for-profit????"

Excellent question, and I have my own thoughts about that. ;)

If it's the same group I'm thinking of, they run ads in some horse magazines looking for horses to adopt. Amazing, isn't it, that a rescue would need more horses?

I also received a couple of different "emergency" messages from the same group at different times a few years ago, looking for donations of supplies and money because they'd suddenly taken in 20 or 30 rescue horses from owners going out of business, etc. They didn't respond to emails offering to foster horses, I wonder why?

[dauntless]

I will concur that the SWAP ppl sound absolutely bananas.

[caffeinated]

I would love to look through their website thoroughly so I could agree, but it makes my eyes and brain bleed.

Yikes.

[rileyt]

This group is friggen nutso. That is the craziest list I have ever seen. I can't believe these whackjobs haven't been sued yet.

[Zipsmom]

I breezed through their list and one of their DNA's was an employee and another was a foster director (former). HMMMMMM

[Sarabeth]

Wow indeed! I agree with those who say it looks as if this page was written by ranting children - EXTREMELY unprofessional. I would seriously question supporting this rescue after reading this page.

[CowgirlDressage]

They do post in almost all the national horse mags seeking horses to adopt, yet they constantly cry how badly they need money for the upkeep & care of those they have, not to mention how they constantly offer special pricing at certain times of the year...oh, and they were not that long ago desperate for money (their words on their site & their emails) or they'd lose that farm, but I went to the link & they've bought a new place to move to so need to desperately sell the one they've been at for over 10 yrs.??? :eek:

I am constantly amazed at the horse rescues I see that in my opinion should stop taking in new horses until they've cleaned up their act and taken proper care of the ones they have; including making darn sure the people they allow to adopt are indeed suitable to be adoptors. Aren't there studies out there on people that collect over what they can care for, including those that have taken on the name of rescue? Sad.

[Lady Counselor]

That list was one of the CRAZIEST things I've ever seen....words are failing me...
Do I think a DNA list is useful? Yeah, it would be. But not the hysterical, poorly written spew this was.
If anyone keeps tabs on them, would you let us know when the legal shenanigans start?

[Phaxxton]

Reading what they've posted there, it doesn't seem that they are up on the law as they should be.

I surely hope their postings are accurate -- otherwise, THEY will be the ones at the defendants' table of a civil suit.

[SBT]

We don't feed more than 15 lbs in any one feeding, so if they need more, you add another feeding so if they are eating 60 lbs of feed, it should be in 4 feedings, evenly separated.

They're kidding, right? :uhoh: 60 POUNDS??? That's an awful lot, even for a complete feed!

Its important to understand that all dewormers are poison. You might as well give it rat poison because its basically the same thing.(snip)

Whaaaat? :confused:

Injecting joints to maintain soundness by putting toxic materials into a horses body damages that joint. It is only a short term fix and ruins the long term life of the joint. Every injection means a shorter life of that joint.... is that blue ribbon, saddle or even cash prize really worth crippling a horse for life?

And some horses would be crippled for life if they DIDN'T have periodic joint injections... :sigh:

You can easily kill a horse by not considering the place (stable, surroundings, people handing the horse, how busy the stable is, how the daily life is different, what's different and what do you need to introduce them to...

Those things can definitely stress a horse, maybe to the point of illness, but "easily kill" it? Unless it's already very sick, I don't think so. :no:
This person sounds like a certifiable whack-job. :uhoh:

[jester1113]

:eek: I've never seen a 10K adoption horse before!!

Are they a bona fide not-for-profit????

They being crossed sabres? I do not think they are. :mad:

I've never taken the time to verify that for myself, however. Nor will I, as I've heard too many bad things to ever, ever deal with them.

[BelladonnaLily]

Wait a minute. There is a horse on there for $10,000. Is that an ADOPTION fee? So I could give them 10k for this horse and still not legally OWN it? They've GOT to be out of their minds!

[Phaxxton]

SBT, are those quotes off their web site? B/c their adoption contract requires worming...

[SBT]

SBT, are those quotes off their web site? B/c their adoption contract requires worming...

Taken right from the "Our Beliefs" page. :no: The rest of the quote explains that you have to take great care when worming, which is true...but I think there are better ways of getting this across than comparing wormers to rat poision. :sigh:

[TripleRipple]

The fact they are publishing their dna list suggests to me that they are loose cannon kind of people - and from my glancing through it thus far, I am surprised they aren't taking into consideration what a black eye this gives them, and how the recipients of this treatment are likely to react if what they have written is false. There is nothing flattering in their own words about how they do business.

It is a free country, and not up to me; but this group is the kind that I don't like to see owning horses.

[shea'smom]

Whoa, dude. Who wrote that list? I expected to read "and then Buffy's boyfriend call me a bimbo during recess", next.
Some of that may be legit, but who knows.
Weird.

[Mayaty02]

wow - yeah that is some list. I agree on the libel issue...some pretty crazy stuff.

[MoonBallad]

They're kidding, right? :uhoh: 60 POUNDS??? That's an awful lot, even for a complete feed!



Whaaaat? :confused:



And some horses would be crippled for life if they DIDN'T have periodic joint injections... :sigh:



Those things can definitely stress a horse, maybe to the point of illness, but "easily kill" it? Unless it's already very sick, I don't think so. :no:
This person sounds like a certifiable whack-job. :uhoh:

This is their "Wish List" its posted on their website. Funny they have wormers right there on their list. They don't even following their own beliefs it seems.
The itemized list is at the bottom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SWAP is in need of donations to our feed fund. Just call Southern States at 304-873-2261 and talk to Ron, he can take your credit card number and your donation. We will in turn send your receipt. Donations can also be sent to the address at the top of this page.



SWAP is now taking monthly payments for adoption fees. This can be done with a credit card payment or checks from an established checking account. Just another way SWAP is making it easier for you to have the horse of your dreams.


Our trainer, Paula Weekley's young baby, Alyssa has been diagnosed with cancer. Click here to get updates and find out how you can help with the huge medical bills this young family must pay to save their baby



If you can't adopt, think about a gift to one or all of our horses: supplies, tack, dewormers, a donation, a fly sheet for summer, fly spray, a new halter, a winter rug. If you feel really generous SWAP is in dire need of a reliable truck, small ecomonical 4 wheel drive vehicle for errands, and a flat bed trailer for moving hay. Even if a portion were donated, we could do small monthly payments on the rest.


Click here to see SWAP's Best and Worst for 2005. You may just find your name.Congratulations and a special thank you to all of our wonderful supporters, adopters and donors. We thank you for all the great horses, the wonderful homes and all the super memories.

Clck here to see our Black list, this is everyone that has breeched our contract or has abused or neglected horses. Before you adopt out a horse, sell, buy or lease a horse you will want to see this list and stay away from these people. We are convinced they can not be trusted.




OUR WISH LIST



"The person who wins or succeeds, may have been counted out several times, but they didn't hear the referee"



Send Tax Deductible donations to:
Second Wind Adoption Program, National Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Rt. 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road, West Union, West Virginia 26456
Phone: Office 304-873-3532, Fax 304-873-3121
Top 10 Needs of SWAP (as of 6 February 2006)

Cash donations to keep the program going and to keep the program farm
Credit card donations to our feed fund at Southern States 304-873-2261
Volunteers to raise money for SWAP and do grant writing
Horse and barn Supplies (dewormers, shampoo, conditioner, fly spray, supplements, banamine, penicillin, bute, smz's, betadine scrub, iodine scrub, 55 gal trash bags, waterproof turnout rugs, fly sheets)
A farrier to volunteer trimming horses every month
An electrician to do volunteer electrical work on the main barn and volunteer riders to work with and train horses, volunteer barn help to clean stalls and barn, feed and turn out horses.
Square bales of hay (any type, delivered, need 3500 bales for winter)
Office supplies (copy paper, ink for Dell printer, postage, hanging files, business and large envelopes)
A volunteer or donor who can help us get all of our horse rugs cleaned and repaired
A volunteer to do paperwork in office once a week (filing, sending out receipts, doing mailings, updating data base)


things we need and use all the time
White fence paint
rough cut lumber, 1” x 6” x 10', 12' and 16’ and 4” x 4”, 4” x 6”, 6” x 6” wooden posts, treated
De-wormers, paste or 100% ivermectrin (we use over 360 paste wormers per year) Vita flex liquid supplements, DMSO, Penicillan, SMZ’s, Banamine liquid or paste, buteless paste or aspirin paste, Fly spray (any brand, prefer clac 86), glucosimine supplements, Icy tight poltice, any supplement for arthritis, kopertox, Iodine and betadine scrub, ISP
Any type of multi vitamin for horses to top dress feed, weight on
Hay, square bales, any type
Grain, southern states 12% pelleted or triple crown senior, alfalfa cubes or pellets, call 304-873-2261 to donate to the Second Wind Grain Fund
Copy paper, Postage in 100 quantity, 39 cent rolls
55 gal heavy weight trash bags
9 x 11 size envelopes, 10 x 13 large envelopes
Mechanical pencils, black or blue pens, Business size white envelopes, 4 x 6 index cards
Large double ended snaps and eye screws
Clipper blades for A-5 clippers (any size, prefer new ones)
Grooming equipment, Medicated shampoo
Barn Towels, Bath or Beach towel Size for barn use


what we need right now
weed eater heavy duty for grassy areas outside of paddocks
3900 feet of field and electric fencing used with heavy duty t posts, horse safe, 5 foot high
Any adult size synthetic saddles any English, trail or endurance discipline
4 - 6 horse trailer/van new or used
A Truck 1 Ton truck, new or used
Fans for Barns/stalls need 30 stall fans, 6 large barn fans
Indoor Riding Arena 50’ x 150’ x 12H would be perfect dimensions, any type materials
Rebuild Outdoor riding arena arena that fell down (100’ x 200’)
Operating Loan 80k (borrowed to convert veal farm to horses)
Farm Mortgage 113k (left on farm mortgage)
Excavating around barn prevent the barn from flooding, get rid of manure pile, take care of the land slide that happened winter of 2004/05
Dig Well at large Aluminum barn present well has bad water
Cement pads at all the barn doors safety
Bridge and culverts fixed safety
Maintenance on 4 wheeler haven’t done any scheduled maintenance in 2 years
Paint trailer and repair rust
Paint barn
blankets fixed and cleaned
pea gravel or cement pad at barn doors safety
barn run in on side of barn get horses out of summer sun and rain while turned out

[MSP]

I stumbled upon this rescues site years ago and wrote them off my list! :eek:

Two things I noticed that seemed odd to me; What rescues adopt horses out so far away where they can not be kept track of and their adoption fees which are more than I have ever out right purchased a horse for!

My first impression was that they are brokers impersonating a rescue! Not to mention their site is classless and loud!

[Czar]

Reminds me of the VSH website...crazy :yes:

[LivviesMom]

Wow...a new or used truck and their farm mortgage is on their wish list....insane..

[Moesha]

What on earth is the deal with the man who moves from state to state adopting kittens and then torturing and killing them?

[hundredacres]

The people who own this "rescue" are whackos themselves. No wonder they have such a long list of nutcases - they attract them. reasonable people typically realize straight away to stay far, far away from them.

[TripleRipple]

Reading more on that website makes me never want to sell another horse - I do know many people who behave exactly like what I am seeing on that page (both the web site folks and those with the alleged bad acts). In fact, when my horse was for sale, I had my own list of people in my barn that couldn't be buyers, for good cause. They live in their own special reality. You never want them to turn their focus on you - it is like trying to shake or extract a nutball tick.

[arabhorse2]

Hey, I need a lot of stuff too!

Do you think if I create an eye-bleeding website crying for fencing, feed, hay, a NEW truck, etc. ad nauseum, that someone will take pity and actually give those things to me?

Please say yes, and I'll have it up this afternoon! :lol: :lol:

Cash donations are acceptable too, but nothing smaller than a $50 bill please!

[rileyt]

How much you want to bet that despite all the references to the multiple people they're suing, that they've never actually sued anyone? Hmmmm...

[Auventera Two]

Reading more on that website makes me never want to sell another horse - I do know many people who behave exactly like what I am seeing on that page (both the web site folks and those with the alleged bad acts). In fact, when my horse was for sale, I had my own list of people in my barn that couldn't be buyers, for good cause. They live in their own special reality. You never want them to turn their focus on you - it is like trying to shake or extract a nutball tick.

Yep. We are DONE with breeding babies. Never again. No more. We bred a baby, sold her at 3 yr old and got her back at 9. Her flanks are covered in whip scars, she was a confirmed runaway, abused, starved, skin and bones. She'd had a ton of trail experience and did some cool things, but then it must have got old for them and they started neglecting her. It was just terrible. After that we promised ourselves to never breed another baby again.

[FairWeather]

Last I checked, they were not a registered 501(c)3 non Profit, but were calling themselves "non profit" on their website.

[J Swan]

Yet another reason why "rescues" need to be heavily regulated and overseen by the state vet. Too many nuts out there running "rescues".

[LockeMeadows]

Wow. I was quite disappointed with the DNA presentation on their website. Every few months, I'll get in a rescue, do some rehab with it, and then place it in an excellent home. I usually list these horses on the internet, which attracts a lot of weird-o's. My lawyer drew up a 4 page contract which usually scares away the horse-dealer types, but I thought printing off this NDA list might be beneficial. However, much of the writings is here-say and is not facts. This is sad, as I always thought Crossed Sabers had an excellent reputation. Now, they seem a little sketchy.

[Keep1Belle]

Have you seen their halloween specials payment plan. YOu can even get a 2'fer. This is ridiculous they should really be ashamed of themselves.

One horse on the site has been appraised at 37.5K?? I'm sorry but dont these horses usually get donated to a school program or sold leased. Not released into the hands of a looney"rescue" Who are they rescuing these horses from?? Why am I paying 10K for a horse i do not own and at any time I could piss them off by cutting its tail and be on the black list.

I am surprised they have not been sued yet. It is just ridiculous what they put on their site.

[caffeinated]

This is sad, as I always thought Crossed Sabers had an excellent reputation.

LOL

I don't remember all the situations, but this definitely isn't the first time I heard there might be some whack-headedness going on there... I don't think it was on COTH, but I do remember a thread warning people to stay away.

[Moesha]

I readily admit being a complete bitch but honestly everyone knows I would never take light of any person's or horse's suffering and think resuce groups do such great work, but what on earth.............

"Terri Newhouse of Elkview, WV, a former employee of SWAP shot her adoption horse when it would not load after only 40 minutes of trying, this is after SWAP demanded that the horse be returned to SWAP because she would not follow our recommendations for getting herself and the horse trained, allowing things to get worse and not managing the horse well. She also gave away another adoption horse because it was old and sent it to florida, the last place an old horse should be going to sit out in the hot sun after never living in such harsh conditions, that horse laid down and died in the care of the person she gave the horse to and she put her other SWAP horse down because she was old and did not want her anymore. She adopted a dog from us and let it run wild until she was either ran over or killed by hunters. Everything that SWAP has stood for and practiced Terri has gone against, all the things she learned here she's forgotten. I would not trust her with any horse of ours or anyone else's she calls herself a Christian but she only uses that as a veil to hide behind when she wants to do her wrong doings against horses. If you are considering giving or selling any animal to her, I would sure think twice about it. SWAP filed a criminal complaint against her and her husband for the horse shooting but nothing was ever done. Unfortunately Terri signed a very early contract that did not cover in detail things like this so we can not go after her for what she has done but we would never put another horse with her again. She is married to one of the worst rednecks in WV who does not care about animals at all and she become just like him. "

[`reppy]

I can't even focus on the text because of all the colors on the site! It hurts my eyes.

[Anne FS]

Seems to me they're not a rescue at all, but horse traders. They're selling horses they got poor sods to donate to them for free but they're just calling their sales "adoptions" and retaining ownership. The prices are crazy.

THEN, after you've had your horse for several YEARS you may be allowed to buy it and therefore give them even more money:

<<All buyers will pay 1/2 of the horses appraised or estimated value at the time when the horse was donated or current value which ever is highest.>>

OMG, who would do this?!?!!!

pwynnnorman, I bet this is why they were contacting you about your mare. They were trying to hit you up for more cash.

[`reppy]

I readily admit being a complete bitch but honestly everyone knows I would never take light of any person's or horse's suffering and think resuce groups do such great work, but what on earth.............

"Terri Newhouse of Elkview, WV, a former employee of SWAP shot her adoption horse when it would not load after only 40 minutes of trying, this is after SWAP demanded that the horse be returned to SWAP because she would not follow our recommendations for getting herself and the horse trained, allowing things to get worse and not managing the horse well. She also gave away another adoption horse because it was old and sent it to florida, the last place an old horse should be going to sit out in the hot sun after never living in such harsh conditions, that horse laid down and died in the care of the person she gave the horse to and she put her other SWAP horse down because she was old and did not want her anymore. She adopted a dog from us and let it run wild until she was either ran over or killed by hunters. Everything that SWAP has stood for and practiced Terri has gone against, all the things she learned here she's forgotten. I would not trust her with any horse of ours or anyone else's she calls herself a Christian but she only uses that as a veil to hide behind when she wants to do her wrong doings against horses. If you are considering giving or selling any animal to her, I would sure think twice about it. SWAP filed a criminal complaint against her and her husband for the horse shooting but nothing was ever done. Unfortunately Terri signed a very early contract that did not cover in detail things like this so we can not go after her for what she has done but we would never put another horse with her again. She is married to one of the worst rednecks in WV who does not care about animals at all and she become just like him. "

:eek: :eek: This is insane. I can't believe anyone would publish something like this on a site.

She also needs to work on her punctuation.

[nightsong]

I thought rescues didn't allow their placed horses to breed. This "rescue" has a LOT of mares listed as "recommended for breeding" and "to be placed as broodmare only." And it sounds like they have a breeding stallion (that they breed) at their facility.

[2ndyrgal]

had a horse to place and contacted them. When I realized what the "rest of the story" was, I declined to place the horse with them. They called and emailed me daily and threatened to sue if I did not actually donate the horse. When I informed them that it wasn't gonna happen, they sent me a bill for a $250 "application fee" that was non refundable and told me that I must pay, they had already "placed" my horse. Umnnn, no, I think not. Told her my entire family was simply overrun with lawyers and heard nothing further. They are nut jobs at best.

[JBnC]

Looks like a trader working under the guise of a charity.

I am wondering if they will find out about this and defend themselves.

I cannot believe that no one has sued them from defamation, libel, slander...whatever, because they are making some pretty serious allegations. And they sound very dumb on top of that.

Aside from the fact that they are airing such negative information on other people, such an unprofessional website makes me question their integrity.

[JBnC]

Looks like a trader working under the guise of a charity.

I am wondering if they will find out about this and defend themselves.

I cannot believe that no one has sued them from defamation, libel, slander...whatever, because they are making some pretty serious allegations. And they sound very dumb on top of that.

Aside from the fact that they are airing such negative information on other people, such an unprofessional website makes me question their integrity.

[JBnC]

Looks like a trader working under the guise of a charity.

I am wondering if they will find out about this and defend themselves.

I cannot believe that no one has sued them from defamation, libel, slander...whatever, because they are making some pretty serious allegations. And they sound very dumb on top of that.

Aside from the fact that they are airing such negative information on other people, such an unprofessional website makes me question their integrity.

[JBnC]

Looks like a trader working under the guise of a charity.

I am wondering if they will find out about this and defend themselves.

I cannot believe that no one has sued them from defamation, libel, slander...whatever, because they are making some pretty serious allegations. And they sound very dumb on top of that.

Aside from the fact that they are airing such negative information on other people, such an unprofessional website makes me question their integrity.

[Anne FS]

I noticed the "breeding sound & throws color" stuff, too. Yeah, a rescue. Sure.

And their trainer? <<Many of you all know Paula Weekley, she has trained for us for nearly 8 years now, she is also a donor and adopter.>>

A "donor"? So she can't care for a horse and donates it to a rescue and then adopts different horses from same rescue? Good job.

I'm sure we're all on the blacklist now! :D

We'll have to stay tuned to read the rant about the COH evildoers.

[cowgirljenn]

Yet another reason why "rescues" need to be heavily regulated and overseen by the state vet. Too many nuts out there running "rescues".

As much as I DESPISE additional regulations and interference in my life and the life of my rescue, I've come to agree that there should be some way to govern rescues. However, I don't think the state vet is it...

We really need a trade association of rescues (as a starting point) who can give a 'seal of approval', educate the public about good rescues, etc. etc. etc. Of course, the people who really understand the ins and outs of rescue don't have time to put something together. And the other people who I've seen try.. well.. lets just say I'm not sure ANYONE would be good enough to run a rescue in many of their minds. Eek!

[cowgirljenn]

had a horse to place and contacted them. When I realized what the "rest of the story" was, I declined to place the horse with them. They called and emailed me daily and threatened to sue if I did not actually donate the horse.

That just blows my mind - although that's not the first time I've heard about something like that. A friend of a friend was going to donate 9 horses to a rescue. He changed his mind after he found out more about the rescue, and the rescue took him to court. The rescue then did not actually show up in court - can you imagine how happy the judge was on that? (Oh, he was NOT amused).

We turn away donated horses - exceptions are made if the donor can foster the horse or in neglect cases, but our focus is on investigating neglect, and seizing horses when necessary. We are always full - if someone wanted to place a horse and decided to not, I would be thrilled (the only exception would be if the horse had already moved into a foster home. At that point, the horse is property of the rescue (per the donation contract). But to get mad because someone said he/she might donate a horse and then changed his mind? I would be thrilled to have one less horse needing me!

[Lucky Duck]

Did anyone view the new facility? "150 ACRE EQUESTRIAN ESTATE AND HISTORICAL HOME"

And amenities include an inground swimming pool, guest house, etc. If those pictures are true to form... :eek: Non-profit? Sign me up.

[War Admiral]

We really need a trade association of rescues (as a starting point) who can give a 'seal of approval', educate the public about good rescues, etc. etc. etc.

Seems to me that's been tried and it failed miserably... The rescues I'm thinking of couldn't even arrive at a set of standards without acrimony so severe it blew up the whole project. :no: I don't think the state vet is REALLY the answer either and don't know whether other state Agriculture Departments are as horse-friendly as ours is... So that might not be the answer in other states either... 'Tis a puzzlement...

[cowgirljenn]

Seems to me that's been tried and it failed miserably... The rescues I'm thinking of couldn't even arrive at a set of standards without acrimony so severe it blew up the whole project.

I personally think we need to sit down a bunch of the good, experienced rescues in person and get them to start on the association. Unfortunately that requires money to get them together - and that's one thing none of us have enough of! :(

[TripleRipple]

Yep. We are DONE with breeding babies. Never again. No more. We bred a baby, sold her at 3 yr old and got her back at 9. Her flanks are covered in whip scars, she was a confirmed runaway, abused, starved, skin and bones. She'd had a ton of trail experience and did some cool things, but then it must have got old for them and they started neglecting her. It was just terrible. After that we promised ourselves to never breed another baby again.

Ditto on the no more breeding as well. I had a mare slip a foal and was entitled to try again. I did not - lost the breeding fee of course.

Yes, it would chap my hide for it to happen to any horse I sold, but esp. one I bred, raised and had come home like yours did.

[LockeMeadows]

LOL

I don't remember all the situations, but this definitely isn't the first time I heard there might be some whack-headedness going on there... I don't think it was on COTH, but I do remember a thread warning people to stay away.


I truly was not trying to take up for them, as I've never had any dealings with this farm/rescue/etc. Many moons ago, a family friend was debating about "purchasing" one of their horses. She actually decided against it because if she was going to pay x-amount of dollars, she wanted to own the horse. We're talking almost 10 years ago, so things may have changed since then. She said they had nice horses and were simply making sure they went to great homes.

What concerns me the most is the amount of people they've had bad dealings with. :eek: When I re-home my rescues, they go to private homes. I speak with vets, farriers, past boarding stables, etc. I go the extra mile to make sure the horse does not end up in the exact situation I found it in. Perhaps they did not do the foot work and the horses suffered the ultimate price. Perhaps some of the stories are a bit inflated. It takes time, money, and energy to rehab a horse, which is why I only do one at a time. Maybe they have simply too many horses to conduct backgrounds checks the way it should be done. Sometimes what starts off as good intentions ends up going in the wrong direction.

[Anne FS]

Perhaps they did not do the foot work and the horses suffered the ultimate price. Perhaps some of the stories are a bit inflated.

Perhaps they wanted to get the horse back and sell it again to finance the new farm with the inground swimming pool.

Sounds like quite a scam these folks have going. Selling horses all over the place and then nabbing them back while screaming neglect so they can do it again.

Threatening to sue over a horse NOT being donated? Yep, these people are sellers, not rescuers.

[TripleRipple]

fwiw, I read some more and I am done with it - if some of you hadn't verified it, the stories are so outlandish that I would think it is just made up. Or a parody.

P.S. In the last paragraph, they said nobody should compare them to a rescue, because they are not a rescue.

They are rescue prevention, and are making horse traders jealous because they are ruining their markets. This is beyond strange.

[MSP]

fwiw, I read some more and I am done with it - if some of you hadn't verified it, the stories are so outlandish that I would think it is just made up. Or a parody.

P.S. In the last paragraph, they said nobody should compare them to a rescue, because they are not a rescue.

They are rescue prevention, and are making horse traders jealous because they are ruining their markets. This is beyond strange.

From there site:

"Crossed Sabers Stable was established in July of 1996. The Crossed Sabers name and emblem originated from the US Cavalry emblem worn on their uniform and Stetson. It was selected to exemplify the long history and connection between the horse and the military. The stable colors are the traditional Cavalry colors of red and white, added to a black background. The Second Wind Adoption Program was founded by the stable owner, Celeita Kramer, when her mentor, Evelyn Duhr died of cancer the summer of ‘97. Evelyn owned Second Wind Farm in Maryland where she ran a standardbred adoption program. Second Wind was dedicated to Evelyn’s work but was expanded to address all breeds and horses in need. Second Wind Adoption became a non-profit program the summer of ‘98 and the entire facility became non-profit the summer of 2000. At that time, Crossed Sabers became aligned with Second Wind and its primary mission and vision. Second Wind has added foster homes all over the continental US and Canada in order to be able to address the great need and the vast number of calls from horse owners looking for a quality home their equine friend.



PRIMARY MISSION OF CROSSED SABERS STABLE AND THE SECOND WIND ADOPTION PROGRAM

Prevent animal abuse/neglect of all the equus species and the need for rescue through adoption, there by being a catalyst for “Rescue Prevention” by placing horses into quality homes before the need arises for rescue or intervention by authorities.

Make up for the lack of state protection laws by having adoption contracts that govern minimum care and use of each horse.

Allow exceptional adopters the opportunity to purchase their adoption horse with a safe selling contract that will protect the horse for life, after any where from a 2 to 5 year probation period for certain horses but not necessarily all horses and all adopters. "

This kind of gives you the impression they are a traditional rescue, especially the NON-Profit part!

[hundredacres]

They have more people in the blacklist than is the success stories. That is so scary.

I had a friend go look at a horse there - she said the woman was a total witch to her as she was looking. She said she was condescending and aloof. LOL

From her site, she seems like such an easy going and friendly person too ;). (sarc! Don't misinterpret!)

[goeslikestink]

yeah i read that a rescue prevention--- in one context --

but read it again -- with a different meaning

A RESCUE PREVENTION ---- WHOS AWAKE


um they working a scam to get money and neds to make more moeny and neds they seriuosly ned looking with authorities

ilph is a rescue a big one known all over the world they have what called back checkers were by the horses that are adopted loan out 1st they have a lease contract and then they have visits thorughout the year

no horse must be sold or work in a riding school to make a profit etc

[NCSue]

I have been busy in the horse rescue/rehab/adoption field for many years. Some organizations have great reputations and some do not. This is an organization I would advise that you use lots of caution, lots of open eyes, ask lots of questions, and make sure you get everything, and I mean everything, in writing. Find out how many times this horse has been returned, and get a written vet's report. Actually I'd be more inclined to direct you somewhere else.

[catknsn]

Looks like a trader working under the guise of a charity.




Unfortunately, I see a LOT of this going on lately.

Please check out any "rescue" - even if they are a 501(c)(3). It's no guarantee they're not a thinly veiled horse dealership.

That said, normally I do agree with DNA lists. We use them in cat rescue and I know they have saved lives, even if they piss people off. This one seems waaaaay off the wall though.

[HeyYouNags]

I knew their "mentor" pretty well back in the late 80's/early 90's. Big red flag right there. :uhoh:

[Chief2]

I agree. Sounds like it's time to slow down the adoption process and do better background checks. I will be amazed if there isn't a lawsuit coming out of the page, or an arrest if someone is physically injured due to inflammatory information and locations posted on it.

[snowpony]

First of all, defamation in a written form is called libel, not slander.

To prove libel, one must firt prove the statements made are untrue, and that the statements made caused the person damage. If the statements made by the rescue are true, they have nothing to fear. In addition, refusing to adopt someone a horse can't normally be seen as damage.

I didn't look at the website myself, just wanted to point that out.

ETA: OK I saw the 25 page posts and went to the website :uhoh: 'nuf said!

[nightsong]

To paraphrase, the web site says that they get donated horses, "adopt" them out for a HUMONGOUS FEE (I noticed one "on sale" for $10,000), then can let you buy the horse later. And they sure have some fancy digs!!!

[bludejavu]

I just read the voluminous contract that must be signed before adopting. That contract alone, let alone the whole rest of the website, would make me literally RUN from doing business with them. In fact, the whole thing sounds like one of those virtual horse games and the players on this game are no older than 13 years old.

When my husband and I looked into adopting a child, the requirements for adoption weren't half as stringent as the contract I just read. I would never want to get mixed up with the people running this place - they're control freaks, and I'm betting no attorney ever wrote their contract.:no:

[tradewind]

For another for instance...one girl I know adopted a horse from them..Her mother (sole custodian) died of a heart attack at a very young age. This girl was 14..This horse was on a supposed lifetime contract. The horse had to be returned for obvious reasons. They refused..Saying they were too full, blah blah blah..What the ##$$##..They simply refused. This is not a legitimate rescue in my opinion at all..When I was looking to adopt several years ago, I went to their website and looked at their adoption application (which has since been downsized) you had to take a riding test, a written test, submit to a credit check, had to be married at least 5 years, but not dependent on you spouse for income, if you were self employed like I was submit a dunn and broadstreet report..and it went on from there..All so you could have the honor of "adopting" one of their horses for tens of thousands of dollars..Give me a break..Shame on them is all I can say..

[J Swan]

I loathe gov't regulation too; really.

But this type of problem is becoming more common. The IRS hands out that all so important c3 status yet is pretty doggone bad about monitoring compliance. So there is a lot of abuse, a lot of mismanagement, fradulent solicitation; all sorts of problems. And not just with horse "rescues". I've seen this with several rescues in my area. Honestly - they should be shut down. But this issue, like many others, involves several layers of gov't.

The reason I mentioned the state vet is that the welfare of any animal would at some point be under their jurisdicition. The rest - would be under IRS and state and other federal laws and regs.

Makes me sick - and worse - it's very hard for a donor to know where their money is going when they make a gift.



As much as I DESPISE additional regulations and interference in my life and the life of my rescue, I've come to agree that there should be some way to govern rescues. However, I don't think the state vet is it...

We really need a trade association of rescues (as a starting point) who can give a 'seal of approval', educate the public about good rescues, etc. etc. etc. Of course, the people who really understand the ins and outs of rescue don't have time to put something together. And the other people who I've seen try.. well.. lets just say I'm not sure ANYONE would be good enough to run a rescue in many of their minds. Eek!

[millwrightmomma]

As a rescue in Ontario, Canada, reading this set off all kinds of bells.
We have a local 'rescue' that is nothing more than a dealer, says she is non-profit, drives a Tahoe, and has a custom made 15G's horse trailer.
As a person looking for a horse I would stay clear of people like this, but then again, how are the public to leearn about these people?

[Liberty]

I'm sorry we can no longer recommend _________ if you care about your horse and would prefer that none of the SWAP horses be moved using his transport because we are no longer allowing him on our farm. First of all, his prices are outrageous. Additionally, Terry came onto the women that worked for the program even though he's married making us all very uncomfortable about meeting him. He additionally had nothing but negative things to say about every person he picked up horses from and delivered to (about how they kept their horses), with that in mind we figured he was probably talking about us too, which later we found out he was telling people that we didn't care about the horses and didn't clean our stalls, which is just not true at all, we pay to have our stalls cleaned, so much so that no one else gets paid because we have to spend so much on the stalls and keeping the barn clean and to keep our stall cleaner happy and have our stalls cleaned daily.

What a bunch of hogwash (as is all the rest of crap on that site).

For those who want to read the other side of this accusation, here's the hauler's response (a section he has on his website):

http://majos-stall.com/swap.html

IMO, I wouldn't give SWAP the time of day, and I'm really surprised that no one's taken them down yet.

[pwynnnorman]

Wow, didn't know I'd open such a can of worms. Well, I must admit I was satisfied with the mare I got from them, but I'm not sure I even met the owner, who seems to be the impetus for all the vitriol. I did meet nice people there (this was in 2000), volunteers and such. But the website they had back then was nothing like what it is now, which would have sent me running for (or, rather, "out of") the hills if it were what it is now.

Y'know, I am fairly sure there is a medical term for this sort of thing.

[J Swan]

Well, you may want to let them know that if they don't want to end up losing their tax exempt status, and possibly end up in prison - they stop offering appraisal services for donors intending to donate their horses. Now that, I know, the IRS will jump all over with nothing more than a phone call by a concerned citizen.

Tsk tsk.

[PonyHunterz]

How can these people get away with posting about people, if it's not true?:eek:
Seems like they're setting themselves up for a bunch of lawsuits.:yes:

[sidepasser]

When I was looking to adopt a horse, I checked their website. That was almost three years ago. I thought they had some nice horses and then I saw the "adoption" fees..my lands I could BUY a horse for what they wanted in "fees" and never own the horse..not hardly. But what really threw me was the contract - it was something out of this world, over 20 pages I believe and might as well told me how many horse apples the horse had to poop each day and how and when I had to pick the poop up and dispose of it.

Sorry - if I am buying, I pay as agreed. If I am adopting, I figure I will pay a reasonable fee to help out the agency as they do have to care for the horse, but at the end of some point in time, the horse should become mine if I have been diligent about caring/vetting/training said horse.

It is my opinion that this place merely "sells" horses under the guise of adopting and the adopter never owns the horse unless...they pay and pay..and if you piss them off..well bam - there goes the horse and they can "adopt it out" again and again...

I wouldn't mind adopting another horse one day, but it sure won't be from those folks. I wonder if anyone one who adopted has ever sued THEM for falsely stating they weren't caring for the horses or demanding that the adoptor return the horse after years of caring for said beast. Wouldn't that be horrible to care for a horse for years, spend years on training and then out of the blue this group could say you weren't "properly caring for their horse" and demand it back (now that it was worth much more!).

I would be afraid that would happen because it seems that they are more interested in getting horses back than checking people out up front.

[Marli]

For those that have stated that there needs to be a 'standard' criteria for rescues, I whole-heartedly agree. For several years, and moresoe within the past 4 (along with CeeDreams) and while still with the Exceller Fund, one of the number one top priorities was to make sure that any of the rescues we dealt with maintain a mandatory requirement of retaining ownership as well as the return of any horse(s) along with a non-breeding statement.

I personally have seen quite a few that use the term 'rescue' along with a non-profit status that to me (and others that are 'like' minded like myself) that are nothing more than GLORIFIED HORSE DEALERS. Period. It always makes me chuckle when I read the 'adoption' (termed loosely) fees. Now I realize that there's time and money involved in the care, but the majority of horses are given to them/donated. For those rescued at sales, the price is minimal. Yet the 'adoption' fee can range anywhere from $1500-5000! It's ludicrous. I am always amazed when I see the solicitation of donations, the 'glory' stories on the net and the support received without anyone really digging deeper into their 'rescue' protocols. Let's face it, anyone can go to a sale/auction, purchase a neglected or injured horse and say they 'rescued' it. But there is definately more to the meaning of rescue [especially so if running as a non-profit and soliciting donations], a true rescue, than that. Legitimate rescues, in the true meaning of the word, are those that retain lifetime contracts, no breeding clauses and accept the return of horses, no questions asked. After all, if a horse is rescued once in it's lifetime is there any good reason why it should ever have that fate befall it again??? IMO - there's just no sense to - unless the rescue's true feelings are that once the horse is 'adopted' it's out of sight/out of mind. And in that equation, it's nothing more than a horse SALE.

As for this situation- I stumbled across them years ago and all one really needs to do is read their standards and protocol. I'm in agreement with others, turn and run fast!

[jilltx]

For another for instance...one girl I know adopted a horse from them..Her mother (sole custodian) died of a heart attack at a very young age. This girl was 14..This horse was on a supposed lifetime contract. The horse had to be returned for obvious reasons. They refused..Saying they were too full, blah blah blah..What the ##$$##..They simply refused.This is not a legitimate rescue in my opinion at all..When I was looking to adopt several years ago, I went to their website and looked at their adoption application (which has since been downsized) you had to take a riding test, a written test, submit to a credit check, had to be married at least 5 years, but not dependent on you spouse for income, if you were self employed like I was submit a dunn and broadstreet report..and it went on from there..All so you could have the honor of "adopting" one of their horses for tens of thousands of dollars..Give me a break..Shame on them is all I can say..

I know someone who is on the list. I know the full story. What the printed is not factual and she had the same problem with returning the horse.
I have tried to call her to let her know that she is "on the list". I can not imagine what she will say, but I can guarantee it will not be pleasent.

I imagine that not everyone on the list is innocent, but I find the tone and the accusations of abuse very suspicious. Especially regarding the people who had MULTIPLE horses adopted out to them on many different occasions and the past employees Sounds like a load of sour grapes to me.

[J Swan]

I guess this could be the subject of a whole 'nother thread. Abuse of the tax exempt status. It's an art form. Even the self perpetuating mega charities do it - they rob donors blind and the donors walk away thinking they've helped save the world. Ug.

I'm not saying someone should drop a dime - but someone should drop a dime. There are so many rescues working their butts off to save animals - why tolerate abuses of the system?

For those that have stated that there needs to be a 'standard' criteria for rescues, I whole-heartedly agree. For several years, and moresoe within the past 4 (along with CeeDreams) and while still with the Exceller Fund, one of the number one top priorities was to make sure that any of the rescues we dealt with maintain a mandatory requirement of retaining ownership as well as the return of any horse(s) along with a non-breeding statement.

I personally have seen quite a few that use the term 'rescue' along with a non-profit status that to me (and others that are 'like' minded like myself) that are nothing more than GLORIFIED HORSE DEALERS. Period. It always makes me chuckle when I read the 'adoption' (termed loosely) fees. Now I realize that there's time and money involved in the care, but the majority of horses are given to them/donated. For those rescued at sales, the price is minimal. Yet the 'adoption' fee can range anywhere from $1500-5000! It's ludicrous. I am always amazed when I see the solicitation of donations, the 'glory' stories on the net and the support received without anyone really digging deeper into their 'rescue' protocols. Let's face it, anyone can go to a sale/auction, purchase a neglected or injured horse and say they 'rescued' it. But there is definately more to the meaning of rescue [especially so if running as a non-profit and soliciting donations], a true rescue, than that. Legitimate rescues, in the true meaning of the word, are those that retain lifetime contracts, no breeding clauses and accept the return of horses, no questions asked. After all, if a horse is rescued once in it's lifetime is there any good reason why it should ever have that fate befall it again??? IMO - there's just no sense to - unless the rescue's true feelings are that once the horse is 'adopted' it's out of sight/out of mind. And in that equation, it's nothing more than a horse SALE.

As for this situation- I stumbled across them years ago and all one really needs to do is read their standards and protocol. I'm in agreement with others, turn and run fast!

[PalominoMorgan]

LMAO... I was vaguely referred to on the blacklist.... under the last name mentioned and "her band of thugs". LMAO. They totally wronged someone we knew and a few of us called them out on it. I was called all kinds of nasty words I wouldn't ever repeat after sending a very civilized email. When I went to respond to her sailor-mouth comments she had blocked my email address.

There is no way in hell I would EVER go near this "rescue-prevention" conartist. In fact I'm getting pissed all over again just THINKING about what she did to a friend a few years ago. GRRRRRR.

[cowgirljenn]

But this type of problem is becoming more common. The IRS hands out that all so important c3 status yet is pretty doggone bad about monitoring compliance.


Yeah. They don't even enforce the few hard and fast requirements they have. For instance, by their rules and by law, any 501c3 is supposed to provide anyone who asks with a copy of their determination letter, 990s, and other paperwork. However I have filed a complaint on one organization that refused, and I know others who have filed similar complaints about various organizations, and nothing is ever done. What's the point of that rule if no one enforces it?

*sigh*

Makes me sick - and worse - it's very hard for a donor to know where their money is going when they make a gift.

Yes, and people are losing confidence in non-profits of all types because so much fraud takes place. *sigh* I have worked hard to educate people on how to pick good rescues (articles in several magazines, working on a website now, etc.). But you cannot reach everyone..

[amastrike]

we found out he was telling people that we didn't care about the horses and didn't clean our stalls, which is just not true at all, we pay to have our stalls cleaned, so much so that no one else gets paid because we have to spend so much on the stalls and keeping the barn clean and to keep our stall cleaner happy and have our stalls cleaned daily.
Why don't they just clean the stalls themselves :confused: ? And my goodness, I'd like to work for them, because they must pay a whole lot more than the $2.00 per stall I make!

[TropicalStorm]

Y'know, I am fairly sure there is a medical term for this sort of thing.


Verbal diarrhea? ;)

[philosoraptor]

There seems to be an awful lot of judgement by people based on 1 page on a web site and nothing more. :confused:

I've met the woman who runs SWAP, I toured their farm & been in her home, and I've seen their horses. While this is the first time I've seen their "blacklist" page, they seemed professional and honest when I met them in person. The woman does seem to geninely care. She also helps novice horse professionals get a start by offering summer internships and they get to sleep in her own home. She does seem to care about animals judging by the unwanted dogs she's given a good home to. If she was in this for the money, she'd be flipping horses at auction and dumping to feedlots like other brokers.

Why are some rescues priced high? Their rescue fills a niche whereby they use their show contacts to take in show quality horses. A high level dressage horse may get hurt and need a year off to possibly be sound again. Some weathly people would rather donate the formerly-$25k horse (and get the writeoff) rather than pay board on a horse for a year. The horse is given the rest & care he needs, and when he returne to soundness he's put up for adoption for maybe $10k. It's a bargain for the person getting a highly trained papered warmblood, and the rescue gets the cash it needs to do a dozen unpapered unknowns. The issue of nonprofit vs regular business comes up when a group is not meeting their mission statement (helping animals, preventling cruelty, whatever) and/or they're violating IRS code for the 501c3.... and to me it's not obvious this is happening. We don't know enough to make that judgement.

I think the confusion comes from the perception of what a horse donated to a Rescue is worth. A donation implies value, and donors DO get a tax write-off even if it's only $500. So for those of you objecting to SWAP getting higher valued horses donated, how much should a horse be worth before the Rescue should turn it away? Should $5,000 horses be turned away? $7,000? $10,000?

What people are also not seeing is the sheer lack of local donations in a place like rural West Virginia. No rich donors and no corporate sponsorship. But her horses have to eat. Why should she give away a 3rd level dressage horse for $500 to be seen as a true Rescue? What's wrong with using adoption fees to pay expenses?

Side note: I've seen where some Rescues only keep each horse a week or two (not even long enogh for Quarantine) and I know one Rescue that is discused on this board who doesn't even board/vet/handle the horses. In SWAPs case, the horses do stay there until placed... she's not acting as a salesman for the professional broker.

They DO screen adoptees, and any Rescue that's been around a decade will have a few blunders. I can tell you from firsthand experience some of the worst homes are also some of the best liars. Luckily I haven't seen it yet firsthand with the local rescue I volunteer for, but it could happen to anyone. We're only talking about it today because they're making public the bad homes. I bet any rescue who has been around has a list just like it (just not a public one)

Why the angry note about the other rescue and the one humane shelter? How would you feel if you leased a horse to someone you thought was a good home. The person neglected the animals and Animal Control got involved. Rather than returning the animals to their *rightful owner*, they gave your horse away to a new home and you have no idea where he is. I think you'd be a bit ticked off, too. It does become a legal matter when you show them proof of ownership and the other Rescue still won't budge. I agree with the sentiment that it's a shame some Rescues/shelters can't work together.

SWAPs only problem is that the horses are placed in homes many states away, which is why personalized follow-ups are impossible. Their system is to require a full update annually, often times with pictures. Is it perfect, no maybe not. But it's the best they have.

I will agree the wording and how much information they're disclosing is a bit much. A simple list of names would've sufficed, and it probably does hurt their professional image.

In short I'm disappointed to see the huge amount of bashing to a equine nonprofit by people who have never seen the place themselves. I suspect a few of these snarky comments came from those who never heard of SWAP until today. How can we bash SWAP when the country is full of brokers who will sell any horse, no matter if it's suffering, to anyone with the right amout of money? We tolerate brokers because it's "just business" and we tolerate horse slaughter because people have a "right" to do what they wish with their horses. Of all the evils in the horse world is this really such a horrible place for a horse to end up?

[EponaRoan]

Read the internship requirements. They start out fairly reasonably and then go way into wacky control freak territory.

http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/Internships.htm

[bludejavu]

Well if you're happy to sign a contract the likes of what is offered, then I'm happy for you. But the fact is, the contract in and of itself is just about the most rediculous and at times, redundant thing I've ever read. I've been involved heavily with horses for over four decades and I've never read anything that turned me off to the extent that that contract did. And you're right - I had never heard of SWAP before now so I had no preformed conclusions concerning them. All it took was one very very bad website and blatantly poorly worded, ill thought out blacklist to make me never want to meet any of them. Perhaps they need to rethink their website...

[Anne FS]

There seems to be an awful lot of judgement by people based on 1 page on a web site and nothing more. :confused:


That 1 page on a web site is more than enough.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think the website, and particularly the photographs, speak for themselves.

[TripleRipple]

That 1 page on a web site is more than enough.

Ditto.

[Hopeful Hunter]

I think they may be dancing a very fine jig around non-profit laws, if you read verrrrry carefully here:

""Crossed Sabers Stable was established in July of 1996. The Crossed Sabers name and emblem originated from the US Cavalry emblem worn on their uniform and Stetson. It was selected to exemplify the long history and connection between the horse and the military. The stable colors are the traditional Cavalry colors of red and white, added to a black background. The Second Wind Adoption Program was founded by the stable owner, Celeita Kramer, when her mentor, Evelyn Duhr died of cancer the summer of ‘97. Evelyn owned Second Wind Farm in Maryland where she ran a standardbred adoption program. Second Wind was dedicated to Evelyn’s work but was expanded to address all breeds and horses in need. Second Wind Adoption became a non-profit program the summer of ‘98 and the entire facility became non-profit the summer of 2000. At that time, Crossed Sabers became aligned with Second Wind and its primary mission and vision. Second Wind has added foster homes all over the continental US and Canada in order to be able to address the great need and the vast number of calls from horse owners looking for a quality home their equine friend."

SECOND WIND is claimed to be a non-profit; Crossed Sabers is ALIGNED with it, but there is no direct claim that they are themselves non-profit.

IF the money goes to Crossed Sabers, it could well be profit-making. From what's written, I can't tell if Second Wind is the Maryland farm/rescue, or if the W Virginia operation is simply named after it.

Regardless of fine legalities, a quick read of their website should be enough to scare anyone off!

[Anne FS]

Whoever said this is like a parody is right:

<<Horses valued over $10,000.00 at the time of adoption or horses that increase in value because of training while with the adopter will be insured against injury or death in the name of SWAP HQ and the adopter. The adopter will pay all premiums... Half of all death or total loss payments on claims are paid to SWAP HQ>>

Ok, I'm done with these people. Last comment is that even in spite of people like this, I do NOT want the gov't interfering in this. In this big ol' country of ours there is room for all kinds of rescues, GOOD rescues, who do things differently than each other. That's a good thing. I'd really hate to see gov't step in. Frankly, I think if it did, all the rescue contracts would look like SWAP's.

[abrant]

LoL... the adoption application is insane...

I wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a horse...

"Have you ever bought or sold horses for a living or a hobby?" Well... yes, as I'm sure does the rescue leader...

"Have you ever had a horse die or be put down in your care or while you owned it? If yes, explain the circumstances." Animals die, even with the best of care. In fact, the longer you have a horse the more likely it's gonna die in your care... This question doesn't tell you ANYTHING, it's just nosy and weighted.

Do you have the experience to....
"Prevent soft tissue injuries" I would LOFF to know how because then I would make enough money to be considered to be an adopter...

"Describe in detail your planned riding for the adoption horse (length of time, intensity, time of warm up, cool down, walk, trot, canter and hand gallop, jumping or any particular things you do each time you ride."

"Do you ever feed your horses in the pasture or loose?"

"If the right front hoof is length is 3 inches and a 50 degree hoof angle, then what should the left hoof length be?" My farrier would have a hayday with that. Answer being a more vulgar version of "let a professional worry about that."

[Kementari]

I have read all this and have just one remaining question....

Where exactly does one buy "100% ivermectin?"

:lol:

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

last night giving her my opinion of a company that either LIES about its 501 (c) status or abuses that privilege. I also alerted her to this thread in the event that she feel I were out for personal revenge (or something- I live in Germany. It's pretty bad when your website/impression is so terrible, it's making it halfway around the world). Perhaps she will attempt to defend herself here. Until then, I am fully expecting to see my name on the "blacklist" (ha!). After receiving an email telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about, she has blocked my email account and will no longer receive sent items from me. Pretty professional, eh?

[goeslikestink]

i lph ask for a donation rspca asks for a donation

and moorcroft race horse resuce ask for 500. donation


for adoptions -- no way is that 10k

if horse resuces asked that they wouldnt get a home
as over here you buy a horse instead for that much
why loan one or adopt one if quids or dollars of such stupid amounts

when you can get one for free

equine market watch is another resuce re homing center
no charge horse is free--
my book the horse is donated freely as it has no home for whatever reason
redlands, ada cole ilph take horses in that may be retired and no where to go
thethe other type of adoption service adn those that stay at home
you can adopt yearly by membership as in christmas card
and up dates on the perticular horse you like for 10 .00 per year
you can adopt a horse thats has to saty with the rescue center for life
but can have up dates photos and letters telling you how he is etc


if someone donated a horse to a rescue center for rehoming
thats done on trust recue cneters here state no money is to be made out of them -- ie cant go to ariding school
they have back checkers all the resuce societies to check the horse is being looked after properly and welcare for

these people are dealers plain nd simple they getting horses next to nothing and on the cheap
and profiteering from them

good dealers say they dealers up front they have nothing to hide

what gets me is they charge 10k for a neddy then offer to you to buy it what for another 10k dont make me laugh

no wonder they have nice place nice car etc and no wonder they appear to be nice and respected to those that know them -- they save horses right do right by the horse -- or is it the horse does right by them

to me this humans abusing another right of the horse and the horse unwittingly is in the middle and open to abuse of others --

there is no way on earth i owuld ever send my horse to a place like this where would it end up---
i would rather shoot it

[Coup De Des]

what a bunch of nutbags.

Seriously. What they have written and how they appear to operate is insane.

[J Swan]

I have no animosity towards this group at all. But no nonprofit is permitted to appraise the item that is being donated. I don't care if your "rescue" is run by saints and martyrs. The IRS does not allow this.

This is a horse dealing business. Maybe one with a heart of gold - but it is not a charity. If folks have had good experiences with this business, that's great. But call it what it is. This "rescue" admits that it does not take in horses in need unless it has room.

Don't be naive. The horses "ending up" here are not rescues from the feedlots and kill pens. They are resales. I don't begrudge the horses finding good homes. I begrudge people who disobey the law.







In short I'm disappointed to see the huge amount of bashing to a equine nonprofit by people who have never seen the place themselves. I suspect a few of these snarky comments came from those who never heard of SWAP until today. How can we bash SWAP when the country is full of brokers who will sell any horse, no matter if it's suffering, to anyone with the right amout of money? We tolerate brokers because it's "just business" and we tolerate horse slaughter because people have a "right" to do what they wish with their horses. Of all the evils in the horse world is this really such a horrible place for a horse to end up?

[fourhorses]

It says on their website that they are affiliated, or work in conjunction with, other rescues all over the country -- I wonder if there's a list of those rescues, if anything so a person could avoid them?

I think this is yet another case of someone abusing the non-profit/rescue/service ploy in order to fund their own pleasure too. And yes, this is getting way out of hand. I have seen "rescues" that did little to no "rescuing", with outlandish "adoption fees", and the most blatant of requests for donations (people donating to sponsor rescue horses that the rescue operators come right out and state are being used by them personally -- for showing and breeding? vehicles and trailers being donated for their personal use -- I've seen them at shows for god's sakes, and not there as an adoption based thing, at first I thought they were simply regular old owners until someone told me differently.) I've also seen "riding therapy centers", and I use the term very loosely when remarking about such places, that were put into operation primarily to fund the "founder's" own horsey hobbies -- and believe me they both get headlines and funding -- both private and state aid. It's all very disgusting to me.

Of course, I suppose my disgust could be construed as envy, because if these sorts of things can get you $60,000 arenas, a new 15K 2 horse, a new truck, a custom made saddle, and the horses you personally show and breed for yourself paid for by someone else, then you've really hit on the bull moose granddaddy of cash cows then.

I must be living wrong -- I'm paying through the nose to take care of my critters on my own because I thought a person was responsible for paying their own bills.

[Everythingbutwings]

Simple things - they are NOT a rescue, they are a broker. You want to call it something nicer, let's try placement service. That was my irritation with them a few years ago when this very subject came up on these forums.

I believe it was around the same time as the COTH Exceller fund raiser to help support Patriot.

It's been a while but it would seem the only thing that has changed is that their prices have gone up. :lol:

[FairWeather]

Well, you may want to let them know that if they don't want to end up losing their tax exempt status

As far as I can tell, they do not have a tax exempt status.

[J Swan]

They have to if donors are writing off the value of their horse "donation". Donating a horse to a rescue and receiving a deduction on your tax return is fine and dandy - but the receiving org cannot place a value on that gift, nor can they assist you in obtaining a valuation.

And that would be the case if it was a business deduction as well.
It's a Bozo no-no.

[jester1113]

They have to if donors are writing off the value of their horse "donation".

Doesn't mean that they ARE, in fact, non-profit. Could just mean they are bamboozling a lot of folks. (Again, I don't know for sure they they are not, but I've heard from several different people who have dealt with them directory, that they are not non-profit.)

[J Swan]

They state they are a nonprofit.
They give receipts for cash and other types of donations.

If they are a nonprofit - they are breaking the law and should have their 501(c)(3) status revoked.
If they are not a nonprofit, they are breaking a lot of laws; and not the kind that just impose a wee fine.

Doesn't mean that they ARE, in fact, non-profit. Could just mean they are bamboozling a lot of folks. (Again, I don't know for sure they they are not, but I've heard from several different people who have dealt with them directory, that they are not non-profit.)

[jester1113]

If they are not a nonprofit, they are breaking a lot of laws; and not the kind that just impose a wee fine.


'Xactly. :yes:

[cowgirljenn]

"Have you ever had a horse die or be put down in your care or while you owned it? If yes, explain the circumstances." Animals die, even with the best of care. In fact, the longer you have a horse the more likely it's gonna die in your care... This question doesn't tell you ANYTHING, it's just nosy and weighted.


We used to ask something similar on our adoption application. Of course, no one's going to answer and say "OH yes, I starved 5 horses to death last year.". So we removed that question - horses do die, and we never turned down an adoption because someone had had a horse die..

We've simplied our adoption application application a good bit over the last year or so to make it easier to adopt. We focus more of our energy talking to the applicants, doing inspections on their barns, etc. (Although the application does give us some good info - Like if you want to adopt a 30 year old horse who can carry a 50 lb kid at a walk only and say you want to barrel race, we're going to steer you towards another more suitable horse! :)).

[FairWeather]

Do they actually state that they are a 501c3? I've never been able to read through the website. I have never been able to find a listing for them anywhere either, but maybe its listed under a different state?

[J Swan]

That's a good idea. I adopted a dog a couple of years ago - and was 100% honest on the application; which included that question. Living on a farm and having all kinds of animals during my adult life - of course the answer was yes ; several times over.

Then I had to go through a gauntlet of why's, how's,how much did you spend on their vet care, why did you decide to euthanize, why didn't you euthanize sooner, yatta yatta. Frankly - it pi**sed me off after a while. I understand why the question is asked - but I don't think you'll get an honest answer from dirtbags anyway.

We used to ask something similar on our adoption application. Of course, no one's going to answer and say "OH yes, I starved 5 horses to death last year.". So we removed that question - horses do die, and we never turned down an adoption because someone had had a horse die..

We've simplied our adoption application application a good bit over the last year or so to make it easier to adopt. We focus more of our energy talking to the applicants, doing inspections on their barns, etc. (Although the application does give us some good info - Like if you want to adopt a 30 year old horse who can carry a 50 lb kid at a walk only and say you want to barrel race, we're going to steer you towards another more suitable horse! :)).

[J Swan]

They use the word, "nonprofit"

I can do all the necessary research if you want - I'm just on the BB because I am avoiding riding my horses this am. I just can't seem to get motivated to do chores today.



Do they actually state that they are a 501c3? I've never been able to read through the website. I have never been able to find a listing for them anywhere either, but maybe its listed under a different state?

[jester1113]

They are pretty careful -- they never say they're 501(c)(3) (I did a google search just on their site), but they do say they are non profit (emphasis mine):


http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/About_Us.htm

Crossed Sabers Stable was established in July of 1996. The Crossed Sabers name and emblem originated from the US Cavalry emblem worn on their uniform and Stetson. It was selected to exemplify the long history and connection between the horse and the military. The stable colors are the traditional Cavalry colors of red and white, added to a black background. The Second Wind Adoption Program was founded by the stable owner, Celeita Kramer, when her mentor, Evelyn Duhr died of cancer the summer of ‘97. Evelyn owned Second Wind Farm in Maryland where she ran a standardbred adoption program. Second Wind was dedicated to Evelyn’s work but was expanded to address all breeds and horses in need. Second Wind Adoption became a non-profit program the summer of ‘98 and the entire facility became non-profit the summer of 2000. At that time, Crossed Sabers became aligned with Second Wind and its primary mission and vision. Second Wind has added foster homes all over the continental US and Canada in order to be able to address the great need and the vast number of calls from horse owners looking for a quality home their equine friend.

[J Swan]

Well, girls and boys, this "nonprofit" does not appear in Publication 78 - the IRS list of nonprofits (all types)

Draw your own conclusions.

[3fatponies]

Eeek! Am traveling, so just finally actually saw the DNA list...wow, that was not what I had in mind when I posted that rescues keep DNA lists and it helps them screen people.

Everything about this presentation is unprofessional--the rambling detail (come on--I don't care if they claim to be Christian or are "rednecks" --just tell me why you won't adopt to them in 5 lines or less), the inclusion of former employees (hmmm, what does that say about a group that their own staff is on the list? Next time, try screening them first....), the blatant "my opinion is the right one" agenda....

I do understand the frustration that drives this kind of rambling diatribe, but it does not belong on the web, where it says just as many negative things about the group as the people they are blasting. A simple list of name, location and suspected abuse is more than adequate.

I personally don't have a problem with the fees--everyone, legitimate rescues included, have the right to charge what the market will bear (and in legitimate rescues, that money is plowed right back in, making them better able to make an impact), but this DNA list is really a black eye for this group.

[SweatySaddlepad]

Well you certainly need to wonder about a rescue that has employees that abuse???? Something is fishy, that one women who shot the horse that wouldn't load? I highly doubt that a good reputable rescue would have this many problems if run correctly!

[CowgirlDressage]

There seems to be an awful lot of judgement by people based on 1 page on a web site and nothing more. :confused:

I've met the woman who runs SWAP, I toured their farm & been in her home, and I've seen their horses. While this is the first time I've seen their "blacklist" page, they seemed professional and honest when I met them in person. The woman does seem to geninely care. She also helps novice horse professionals get a start by offering summer internships and they get to sleep in her own home. She does seem to care about animals judging by the unwanted dogs she's given a good home to. If she was in this for the money, she'd be flipping horses at auction and dumping to feedlots like other brokers.

What people are also not seeing is the sheer lack of local donations in a place like rural West Virginia. No rich donors and no corporate sponsorship.

In short I'm disappointed to see the huge amount of bashing to a equine nonprofit by people who have never seen the place themselves. I suspect a few of these snarky comments came from those who never heard of SWAP until today.

So sorry to burst your pretty bubble lady, but not only have I also been there, met Celeita Kramer & crew, but I lived in that section of rural WV for over 13 yrs., we're not as backward and hick as you'd like to think. As to the money issue, sorry, but yeah, they are. They cry about being broke, beg for money, money, money, now they are moving to a larger place with an inground pool, etc. If they can't afford to be where they are how in creation are they affording the much larger, much nicer place they're moving to right now?! Doesn't take rocket science to figure this one out.

When she first started CrossedSabers it was a LOT different and a lot better run I must say. Sadly she changed, the place changed, and a whole lot of people who shouldn't have gotten involved did. And before you ask, no, no sour grapes here; I've never adopted, never tried to donate, etc. But I personally knew her, had been out there many times, and personally know a few people that did adopt, donate & try the internship program. It was ugly, unprofessional, etc. how they were treated, and this is more than one instance over about 5 or 6 yrs.

Glad you enjoyed your visit there, that you saw things so nice & rosy. Too bad you didn't meet the teen girls who will tell of how they were treated while interning or working there, or the folks who've been badgered by her & her crew over not donating horses, goods & services, etc. and so on. The men who were hit on and when they said no were suddenly jerks & liars who tried things with the women at the farm. I could go on, but I won't, I'm finished with this thread and more than finished with that 'rescue'.

[YankeeLawyer]

Look at the photos of the new farm. They apparently are in desperate need of an indoor ring.

[equineelders]

They state they are a nonprofit.
They give receipts for cash and other types of donations.

If they are a nonprofit - they are breaking the law and should have their 501(c)(3) status revoked.
If they are not a nonprofit, they are breaking a lot of laws; and not the kind that just impose a wee fine.


Neither Second Wind Adoption Program not Crossed Sabers appears in the IRS' Pub 78 (database of tax exempt organizations.) Now, I'm the first one to complain about the lack of updates in the online version, but if Second Wind become "nonprofit" in 2000, they should be listed. I suppose there is also a possibility they applied under another name and are using SWAP/Crossed Saber as a DBA......

On giving receipts, anyone can give a receipt saying they received money/goods/horses from someone. The question here is, does SWAP's receipt claim the money received is a tax-deductible charitable contribution or does it only acknowledge exchange of property?

Chris

[Policy of Truth]

I'm relieved I'm not on that list LOL!

Several years ago, my friend found a stallion that was listed on her site that fit in well with her breeding program at the time. He was not yet a part of her adoption program, as the ad read "pending"...which she had explained to me via phone that she had not yet "accepted" him into her adoption program.

She gave us the name of the man donating him...he lived in CA. My friend and him talked extensiveley about the horse and his hopes for him. He wanted him with my friend, and paid to have him shipped to her for a $1 "lease".

Apparently, the owner of the horse was chastized by SWAP for taking away a valuable addition to her program. :rolleyes: She was quite nasty to my friend and apparently accused me of "Orchestrating the whole thing":lol:

Well. That's all I've got to say about that.;)

[J Swan]

Glad you checked too - I also downloaded the pdf file in addition to performing an on-line search. Perhaps a DBA - but I couldn't find anything in WV that seemed to fit.

I'd love to see a receipt too. However, since they also offer to appraise the horse the donor is thinking about "donating" - I bet 10$ it isn't an exchange - not even under IRS definitions of "exchange".

Neither Second Wind Adoption Program not Crossed Sabers appears in the IRS' Pub 78 (database of tax exempt organizations.) Now, I'm the first one to complain about the lack of updates in the online version, but if Second Wind become "nonprofit" in 2000, they should be listed. I suppose there is also a possibility they applied under another name and are using SWAP/Crossed Saber as a DBA......

On giving receipts, anyone can give a receipt saying they received money/goods/horses from someone. The question here is, does SWAP's receipt claim the money received is a tax-deductible charitable contribution or does it only acknowledge exchange of property?

Chris

[Wendy123]

http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/SWAP_Black_List.htm

Interesting, huh? I got a mare from them--wonderful companion for my stallion for 3 years before gray horse tumors took her away. I got some curious emails about the mare a few years later, so when I noticed this link on the site, I actually went to make sure my name wasn't on it! I'm HONESTLY not sure if this is a good idea or a bad one, but whatever way you lean, perhaps it's good to know about?

I spent a good 20 minutes reading the site and I have to say I was shocked by the tone of the rescue. For example, one person was described as "got hersel married to a WV redneck and being a worse than typical WV rednecks"....OMG I couldn't believe it! They keep ownership of horses forever and one cost $10,000!!!!!!

I don't think I would put too much stock into this person.

[FatPalomino]

I know a shipper that used to work for this rescue. he said she is bonafidied crazy. She would send him to repo horses that were in just fine condition at nice places.

It's people like this that give rescues a bad name and make it harder for people like me to help one horse at a time- since no ones wants to trust a rescue after scammers like this one!

[plain bay]

Did anyone happen to look at their "Best & Worst for 2005" list? It says that McClain Ward donated one of his horses. WTF???

[plain bay]

Oh geez...they also do Parelli work too.... I don't know why I'm suprised at that though....

[Pandarus33]

I can understand posting the names of people who have been CONVICTED of abuse or neglect in accordance to this particular or other rescues. If the people listed were not arrested or convicted, there is every reason why they can sue the heck out of that rescue. It's a lawsuit just waiting to happen. I'd love to see the lawyer's fees for just one case that comes from the list.

Share the names with other rescues and Humane Societies, by all means. Putting it up on the website is sure suicide for any business.

[nightsong]

he said she is bonafidied crazy. She would send him to repo horses that were in just fine condition at nice places.



This could be "crazy like a fox" -- in that the horse can be re-adopted for ANOTHER fee, with the possibility of later "selling" it to the "adopter" for an ADDITIONAL chunk of change.

[SBT]

For those who want to read the other side of this accusation, here's the hauler's response (a section he has on his website):

http://majos-stall.com/swap.html

And a quote from his response:
But then, I would Euphonize Majo or any of my horses before putting them in her care.

I'm not suggesting his side of the story isn't legit (it does seem more likely than the SWAP version), but he doesn't exactly come across as a real winner, either. :no:

[vxf111]

Very clever marketing...

You can be as nutty as you want, so long as you print that nuttiness on an IMPOSSIBLE to read website so that any sane person has to click away after 10 minutes of struggling, and only the other people wearing the tinfoil hats can read on and "adopt" from you. :)

[Czar]

And a quote from his response:


I'm not suggesting his side of the story isn't legit (it does seem more likely than the SWAP version), but he doesn't exactly come across as a real winner, either. :no:

I thought the same thing SBT...seems a little emotional on all sides of this story and that is unprofessional regardless of who is right and who is wrong.

[dauntless]

What I am curious about is - why haven't we heard from this apparent Queen Crazy herself? I'm surprised this thread hasn't been called to her attention so that the sparks can REALLY fly.

[Miss Demeanor]

This is not "a group." It's just one certifiable lunatic (I've met her) who manages, here and there, to manipulate some sucker into helping her (I was one of them, briefly :sigh: ). Last I checked, she didn't have non-profit status. I have confronted her and reported her to the authorities numerous times :mad: :mad: . Good people who have donated horses to her have been audited, but the IRS doesn't seem to bother with her :confused:. Maybe, like some of you, they just don't have the energy to wade through that loony website. . .or maybe it's just easier to go after law-abiding people who actually pay taxes.

Maybe one day. . .

[MSP]

What is this, a witch hunt?

I find her site and business very questionable but what is the purpose of calling her names and bad mouthing her.

I am concerned that this type of pretend rescue give real rescues a bad name and I am concerned about innocent people being duped but a cat fight on a BB isn’t going to solve anything.

Whom would one report a questionable business to when it concerns a possible non-profit or scam?

I would think the best thing to do is notify the proper authorities and let them investigate. This thread will serve its purpose as a warning to those thinking of doing business with this person!

Also, the internet is no place for the gullible; a fool will soon be parted from their money!

[philosoraptor]

<in reply to my post> So sorry to burst your pretty bubble lady but not only have I also been there, met Celeita Kramer & crew, but I lived in that section of rural WV for over 13 yrs., we're not as backward and hick as you'd like to think.

Chill, Cowgirl. Nobody said anyone was a hick.... I know I didn't. :confused:

And I don't have a pretty bubble lady. One guy I once knew had this inflatable girl, but that's as close as I've seen to a bubble lady. :lol:

They are pretty careful -- they never say they're 501(c)(3) (I did a google search just on their site), but they do say they are non profit

Interesting! Can anyone verify this either way? I was under the impression they were a 501c3 but maybe I mistakenly took "nonprofit" as 501c3.

[Miss Demeanor]

Whom would one report a questionable business to when it concerns a possible non-profit or scam?

I would think the best thing to do is notify the proper authorities and let them investigate. This thread will serve its purpose as a warning to those thinking of doing business with this person!


You would report her to the IRS, the Postal Inspectors (mail fraud), and the U.S. Attorneys Office, to begin with. I have. Maybe if more people did it, it would have an impact. I actually have the link to the IRS fraud division bookmarked on one of my computers (not the one I'm on now). I'll try to post it later.

MayS - This is not "they." It is one woman, who speaks in the royal "we." Every time I've checked with the IRS, she did not have non-profit status. She claims to. I should know. I donated a lot of money (stupid me) and got receipts.

This woman has duped many people. If people who don't know her and haven't dealt with her wouldn't come to her defense (as they are here) maybe she could be stopped.

[caffeinated]

Interesting! Can anyone verify this either way? I was under the impression they were a 501c3 but maybe I mistakenly took "nonprofit" as 501c3.

If you look back, I believe J Swan (and one other poster) both looked it up in the register of 501c3 non-profits (whatever that's called, LOL) and it wasn't listed.

[Liberty]

I was under the impression they were a 501c3 but maybe I mistakenly took "nonprofit" as 501c3.

I think they (SWAP) are counting on people automatically assuming "nonprofit" equates to 501c3, when in actuality, the word "nonprofit" by itself could mean many things.

For instance, they might not consider their horse dealing business as "profitable" if it doesn't cover all the expenses of a new fancy, schmancy farm (w/pool!), with enough left over to cover any other indulgences they might want to visit upon themselves.

As for the hauler who couldn't spell "euthanize", I don't feel that fact clouds his side of the story (I'm not saying his side is the absolute truth, but I think it's probably more so than SWAP's version).

He's a horse hauler, not an English teacher. He probably used spell checker, and since "euphonize" IS a word, it didn't get flagged as incorrect.

Personally, my hypothesis is a SWAP employee (or the founder herself) probably came on to HIM, and he rebuffed her advance(s). So, in the spirit of "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned", she blasted him and his business on her website. in addition to (according to the hauler) saying some very nasty things about the hauler's wife. JMO.

There is a member of an email list group I belong to that got a horse from SWAP a while back. Thing is, it turned out to NOT be sound after the fact, and the hunch is that it was drugged in order to appear sound.

This poor woman tried to return the horse, and SWAP refused to take it back. The adopter even said she didn't want her money back - just for them to take the horse back since it wasn't rideable. Still, SWAP refused. So, she's been paying board on it ever since. :(

[philosoraptor]

If you look back, I believe J Swan (and one other poster) both looked it up in the register of 501c3 non-profits (whatever that's called, LOL) and it wasn't listed.

This is what's got me puzzled. :confused: :confused: :confused:

The first thing that came to my mind:
A tiny 501c nonprofit can exist for years and be so small they fall under the radar. It's my understanding (some tax-guru stop me if I'm wrong) but the tiny 501c3s bringing in under $25k in proceeds annually don't have to file the 990. I'm still puzzling through the maze of federal nonprofit forms myself. I was just wondering if some of these lists people are referring to are based off the federal 990 filings? (i.e. not be 100% inclusive)

I did check guidestar.org (http://www.guidestar.org/) and didn't see either name listed in their datebase. I go to guidestar first to pull up info on NonProfits, and I admit I am not familiar with the list JSwan looked at. Can JSwan or someone else post a link to this list? Thanks in advance!

Honest question ... and this is why I am so confused right now: how a business can call itself "non profit" and ask for "donations" if they're not a Non-Profit entity?

[J Swan]

Publication 78 is an IRS publication.

You still have to be organized under 501(c)(3) and you still have to have your IRS letter. Even a tiny charity still has to follow the rules. This business even solicits gifts from estate plans - planned giving is most assuredly only done by real nonprofits as the tax implications to the estate are horrendous if a gift is disallowed.

Guidestar is a nice guide - but if you really want to find out who is a charity and who isn't, you go to the IRS first. The IRS suspends and revokes charitable status all the time (although I think the agency suffers from an overabudance of red tape; like all gov't agencies)

Your question as to how a business can solicit donations and not be a nonprofit is easy to answer. It can't. Not legally anyway.

Here's the link to the IRS site y'all may be interested in. Not necessarily for this "adoption program" but to check out any charity you may be interested in working with. And there is also a hotline to report suspected fraud.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/index.html

and Publication 78 for those who want to go straight to the list:

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96136,00.html

I'm not on a witch hunt, and I certainly do not wish to cause anyone any angst or concern. On the other hand - I think enough of us on this BB do enough work with horse rescues to know that there is stiff competition for donor monies. And if there is someone out there misrepresenting themselves to get at that scarce donor money - SHAME ON THEM.



This is what's got me puzzled. :confused: :confused: :confused:

The first thing that came to my mind:
A tiny 501c nonprofit can exist for years and be so small they fall under the radar. It's my understanding (some tax-guru stop me if I'm wrong) but the tiny 501c3s bringing in under $25k in proceeds annually don't have to file the 990. I'm still puzzling through the maze of federal nonprofit forms myself. I was just wondering if some of these lists people are referring to are based off the federal 990 filings? (i.e. not be 100% inclusive)

I did check guidestar.org (http://www.guidestar.org/) and didn't see either name listed in their datebase. I go to guidestar first to pull up info on NonProfits, and I admit I am not familiar with the list JSwan looked at. Can JSwan or someone else post a link to this list? Thanks in advance!

Honest question ... and this is why I am so confused right now: how a business can call itself "non profit" and ask for "donations" if they're not a Non-Profit entity?

[goeslikestink]

cause they are scamming people if i was thre i would report and do a link to the thread-- given what majority of people think-- she has to be stopped casue she a fraud

[MSP]

I'm not on a witch hunt, and I certainly do not wish to cause anyone any angst or concern. On the other hand - I think enough of us on this BB do enough work with horse rescues to know that there is stiff competition for donor monies. And if there is someone out there misrepresenting themselves to get at that scarce donor money - SHAME ON THEM.

Good information, and I agree. I was concerned about this comment calling for sparks!

What I am curious about is - why haven't we heard from this apparent Queen Crazy herself? I'm surprised this thread hasn't been called to her attention so that the sparks can REALLY fly.

[philosoraptor]

Here's the link to the IRS site y'all may be interested in. Not necessarily for this "adoption program" but to check out any charity you may be interested in working with. And there is also a hotline to report suspected fraud.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/index.html

and Publication 78 for those who want to go straight to the list:

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96136,00.html


Thank you, JSwan! Excellent link. I learn something new every day.

I admit that I'm wrong. I was sure they were a Non Profit, and now that I look through their site carefully I see no mention of 501c status. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Appassionato]

OMG...their site is so bad, it's mesmerizing. This can't be for real.

[Appassionato]

OMG, WTH?

"The owners of Kurageous, the warmblood gelding, who died a horrific death here. None of it would have happened if his owners would have told us the truth about him and the fact that he had foundered. He had foundered and instead of giving him the treatment to make him better they just kept him in shoes to hide the damage and pain, his feet were dead when he arrived, there was nothing to save and he was drugged and had been drugged daily by them since 2001. He suffered terribly, we spent thousands of dollars attempting to save him and help him. They lied and said he had abscesses but the truth was that he had foundered with severe rotation of the coffin bone and they never even offered to help us recover financially."

Wait a second...I smell a rat. Shoes won't disguise the pain of founder, bull hockey on that one. Second, there was nothing they could do because he feet were dead, so they spent thousands to try to save him? Which is it, folks? This is sick.

[BelladonnaLily]

Gotta love this...:rolleyes:

(off of their Best & Worst page)

"Truly wild horses roam thousands of acres and like deer, move when the weather is cold or bad which keeps them warm and blood flow into their feet and legs, so unless you have 1000 acres for your horses to run on, leaving them out in cold weather is nothing but abuse. "

and

"Doing what ever their vet or farrier says without researching it themselves, even putting horses down and making life altering decisions without even getting a second or third opinion and without consulting a specialist in that area, even when vets give the diagnosis without the required tests, x-rays, ultrasounds or observation. We find about 80% of vets' diagnoses to be wrong unless they are a specialist, really like doctors... most vets really don't even have the experience to read their own x-rays, with that in mind, a second and third opinion is an absolute must. "

80%? Wow. Geez Louise...

[Appassionato]

"13. Horse owners not preparing their horse for every situation and environment. Owners that raise and keep their horses alone in sterile pastures and barns are doing such a dis-service to their horses by making them into 'fufu' horses that can not make a decision on their own, they are not hardy and would not survive many of the homes in the US, its like putting a child in a closet and expecting them to later function in the world... it just does not happen. Raise and teach your horse as you would your child, introduce them to everything, keep your pasture as rough as you can with trees, creeks, natural obstacles that are safe.... obstacles that are appropriate for the horse in mind. We keep our pasture like an obstacle course for that reason, we want horses to learn about making decisions, about how to maneuver around things and they can do they here with our professional supervision but if you get a horse like this and toss him out in anything, he could get seriously injured or die so it takes great care to transition a horse from the 'fufu' life to a thinking, decision making, savvy horse."

:lol:

First it's not good enough, now we do too much.

[Appassionato]

"Deb Siegel of Long Island, NY, DealerDeb1, a wife of a vet on Long Island who has nothing better to do than to slander and libel every program like ours on chat rooms and boards and also has assumed her husbands profession and gives everyone vet advise and she has nothing to do with her husbands profession or office. The lies she has told about us: That we sell our horses outright, that the owners don't know where the horses go, that we are ripping people off because we only 'sell' lame horses..... this is sooooo wrong and we've told her over and over again but she and her band of thugs don't listen. Why, because they are horse traders, and if they are like every other horse trader we've met, they probably drug horses to sell them, they probably lie to you about the horse, they probably cheat people to get their money and then disappear after you have the horse. Horse Traders take your money and run and they are jealous because we are ruining their market by exposing them and every other horse trader to the world. For the last time, we are not a rescue and you should not compare us with one, we are rescue prevention, though we do not turn rescued horses away, we do not sell horses, we adopt them out and track them for life.... no horse trader in the world is going to do that because they want to take your money and run. The owners of swap horses all receive notification of all the contact information of every adopter and can stay in touch with their horse forever. We don't take the money and run, we are there to support adopters and help them for as long as they have the horse, for the rest of the horses life. Adopters money don't go into our pockets, it goes to help the next horse in need. We will take the horse back if the adopter can not keep the horse.... this is for the life of the horse. No horse trader on earth does those things but yet she slanders us and every other fine rescue and adoption organization in a public forum."

[J Swan]

No worries, folks. I know a lot of you work your butts off on real horse rescue - and (even though we don't 100% agree on slaughter) I say hats off to the folks out there pulling horses from feedlots and saving animals from real abuse and neglect.

That's where our charitable money should be going!

I have my own little "issues" with the IRS and the abuse of the tax exempt status - but it's not horse related so I'll tilt at that windmill elsewhere.

If this place really is shady - eventually they'll be caught.

[Appassionato]

No worries, folks. I know a lot of you work your butts off on real horse rescue - and (even though we don't 100% agree on slaughter) I say hats off to the folks out there pulling horses from feedlots and saving animals from real abuse and neglect.

That's where our charitable money should be going!

I have my own little "issues" with the IRS and the abuse of the tax exempt status - but it's not horse related so I'll tilt at that windmill elsewhere.

If this place really is shady - eventually they'll be caught.

That's a good point, JSwan. I worry for the legitimate rescues that screen people...fearing people will confuse the two! Maybe I'm being paranoid or overprotective, but real rescues have it hard enough. These psychos aren't helping the overall picture.

[Miss Demeanor]

As promised, here's the link for reporting suspected fraud to the IRS:

How Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity? (http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html)

If you suspect (you don't have to know for sure) that this organization is fraudulent, report it please.

I have been to Crossed Sabers. I've met Celeita. She's a one-person show. I bet you can't find anyone who has known her for any period of time who has anything good to say about her. I know people she's hurt and practically destroyed.

I have kept copies of my e-mails correspondence from Celeita in which she admitted that she doesn't (or didn't at the time) have 501(c)(3) status. She claimed that her accountant who was supposed to file for 501(c)(3) status was killed in a motorcycle accident, and she didn't realize he hadn't filed the paperwork. That was about five years ago. The last time I checked, last year, she still didn't have 501(c)(3) status.

I'm not on a witch hunt, but if you don't speak out when something is really wrong, then you become an enabler.

[goeslikestink]

then all report it -- cant be turn off then can it -- she a fruad and frudelent so report it all of you if i was in the states i would

[EponaRoan]

There's careful screening and checking of references and then there are applications that look like stuff we used to make up for fun in school (and that still tend to turn up on the 'net via chain-mailing friends). :D

Q: Do you brush your teeth up and down or side to side or both? Do you floss? How many times per day? How often do you see your dentist? Do you have dental insurance? Give full details in a 500 word essay! This could disqualify you from ever having a horse of ours and we'll blacklist you elsewhere so people know just how poor your dental habits are!

Well, not quite that bad, but some of the questions on the (possibly former) application were just about as bad and downright nosy and not relevant to horse ownership.

[goeslikestink]

you know if you all reported it the horse would be better of as the humanie socities would have to take them in and people would then get a free horse
owners would be contacted in some cases and horse may go back home
it woudl awaken the world to the eyes of the rescue cneters into maybe giving the right money to the right cuase dealers wouldnt lose out either becuase they say they dealers or brokers up front --

it can only do good by stopping people like her as it gives both the commercial market and the resuce centers a bad name as some might think they all like that so it has to stop

her big famr the loory the whatevers would go maybe a proper resuce center will have the good fortune of these items to help them in there plight

abuse is abuse nd these people abuse not only the horse the people but the system -- that plain aint fair

[nightsong]

There is a member of an email list group I belong to that got a horse from SWAP a while back. Thing is, it turned out to NOT be sound after the fact, and the hunch is that it was drugged in order to appear sound.

This poor woman tried to return the horse, and SWAP refused to take it back. The adopter even said she didn't want her money back - just for them to take the horse back since it wasn't rideable. Still, SWAP refused. So, she's been paying board on it ever since. :(

She should have offered to DONATE it. then they would have HARASSED her until they got the horse!!!

[cowgirljenn]

That's a good point, JSwan. I worry for the legitimate rescues that screen people...fearing people will confuse the two! Maybe I'm being paranoid or overprotective, but real rescues have it hard enough. These psychos aren't helping the overall picture.

You aren't being overly paranoid. Every "bad" rescue (or rescue prevention, whatever!) out there hurts those of us who work hard to run legitimate organizations...

And it is beyond frustrationg.

[equineelders]

You aren't being overly paranoid. Every "bad" rescue (or rescue prevention, whatever!) out there hurts those of us who work hard to run legitimate organizations...
.

Now this is overly paranoid, but we specifically kept the word "rescue" out of our organization's name because of the bad connotations in some people's minds.

[cowgirljenn]

Now this is overly paranoid, but we specifically kept the word "rescue" out of our organization's name because of the bad connotations in some people's minds.

Well, we used 'Humane Society' instead for a similar reason. Too many law enforcement officers out there had bad experiences with "rescues".

Sad, sad, sad.

[equineelders]

There's careful screening and checking of references and then there are applications that look like stuff we used to make up for fun in school (and that still tend to turn up on the 'net via chain-mailing friends). :D
*******
Well, not quite that bad, but some of the questions on the (possibly former) application were just about as bad and downright nosy and not relevant to horse ownership.

I don't get the idea behind pages and pages of applications. People can write anything they want, true or not. A 10 page application does no more good than one page, in my mind, if that is your only screening tool. The organization I used to work for even had a few applicants try to get out of their pre-adoption visits by sending pictures of their farms. Trouble was, the pictures were of someone else's property!

[abrant]

That's a good idea. I adopted a dog a couple of years ago - and was 100% honest on the application; which included that question. Living on a farm and having all kinds of animals during my adult life - of course the answer was yes ; several times over.

Then I had to go through a gauntlet of why's, how's,how much did you spend on their vet care, why did you decide to euthanize, why didn't you euthanize sooner, yatta yatta. Frankly - it pi**sed me off after a while. I understand why the question is asked - but I don't think you'll get an honest answer from dirtbags anyway.


That's why it rubbed me the wrong way.

I had an employee here that was the "lalala animals are my heros!" kind of person, and she was EXTREMELY critical of my two decisions to euthanize while she was working here.

This made me so hurt and angry.

Both decisions were theoretically simple but were very hard emotionally and the responsiblity was squarely on my head.... and she was aware of the circumstances!

I had a wonderful racehorse being treated for EPM go down and become unable to rise. Although he was alert, eating, and drinking, his hind legs were paralyzed. I had a foal born at the clinic after being extracted after 2.5 hours. He was brain dead and having seizures. The vet said it was as bad as he'd ever seen. I had him euthanized, the next day the lady described him to another barn worker as being "feisty".

Now, after reading the quote from the site about getting multiple opinions, etc. etc.... I have even worse feelings about these people because I KNOW THEIR TYPE.

They are the great judgers. I'm thinking if expect you to stand as the surgeon who just saved your mare tells you there is no hope for the braindead foal flopping on the floor and ask for a second and third opinion or expect you to watch a once-noble racehorse struggle to stand on his useless legs as you wait for a second and third vet... they are truly the kind of people that will be poisionous.

~Adrienne

[abrant]

OMG, WTH?

"The owners of Kurageous, the warmblood gelding, who died a horrific death here. None of it would have happened if his owners would have told us the truth about him and the fact that he had foundered. He had foundered and instead of giving him the treatment to make him better they just kept him in shoes to hide the damage and pain, his feet were dead when he arrived, there was nothing to save and he was drugged and had been drugged daily by them since 2001. He suffered terribly, we spent thousands of dollars attempting to save him and help him. They lied and said he had abscesses but the truth was that he had foundered with severe rotation of the coffin bone and they never even offered to help us recover financially."

Wait a second...I smell a rat. Shoes won't disguise the pain of founder, bull hockey on that one. Second, there was nothing they could do because he feet were dead, so they spent thousands to try to save him? Which is it, folks? This is sick.


WOW, I was just going to say that at least one thing she doesn't do, that our local rescue does is insult those who give up animals... but she does!

I always wonder how so called 'rescues' can be publically insulting to those who voluntarily give up animals to them and expect to 'rescue' more. In the case of the local rescue, they are 'shameless self-promoters' (not my words! those of a local business owner!) and plastered a press release all over everywhere that would make ANYONE re-consider surrendering a horse to them. I wanted to post the exact wording, but I can't find the copies of TWO local horse papers that printed it. It made me more than a little ill.


~Adrienne

[SpoiledHorse]

I had an extremely bad experience with SWAP about five years ago. I adopted a pony that was said to be sweet and sound, but was anything but. Then, after I tried supplements, corrective trimming, etc., etc., they accused ME of laming the pony. She was also very mean-tempered...probably because she was uncomfortable...

I ended up sending it back, and they continued to advertise the pony on their website as sound, kid friendly, etc., even AFTER I'd discussed with them the issues we'd had with her. The next person adopted her, had the SAME problems I'd had, and returned her. Then SWAP kept the description on the site virtually the same, but said they were adopting her out as a brood mare. That's good...let's breed an unsound, mean-tempered pony. Arrrrgh!

That organization is completely unethical, as far as I'm concerned. My vet, my local horse rescue, my boarders, all wrote letters vouching for my horse care, and Celeita told me they were all lying. Good grief! Run, don't walk, from this whacko!

[Miss Demeanor]

Here's a question. I've thought about writing a letter about SWAP to an investigative news program like 60 Minutes, but they tend to have their own agenda, and I worry that it would end up giving good rescues a bad name if they actually did a story. Any thoughts?

[J Swan]

Well folks - the IRS number is toll free. You make your own decision.

[EponaRoan]

Here's a question. I've thought about writing a letter about SWAP to an investigative news program like 60 Minutes, but they tend to have their own agenda, and I worry that it would end up giving good rescues a bad name if they actually did a story. Any thoughts?

How about starting with the local media (papers, tv, radio) and contacting a reporter whose work you trust there? There's usually at least one area paper that's interested in reporting the 'dirt' - in ours it's New Times, the weekly freebie paper, but I'm not sure what it would be in those parts.

I think calling the IRS is an excellent idea particularly for those who have donated and been led to believe that their donations are tax deductible. I'd be very curious as to what the receipts actually said or if they too skirt the legalities.

I have nothing against (reputable) horse traders OR breeders, but it's more than annoying when traders and breeders say that they are a 'rescue' when they are not. And I'm not talking about traders/breeders who help out the occasional horse - I'm talking about the ones that do big business in the name of 'rescue'.

[Appassionato]

WOW, I was just going to say that at least one thing she doesn't do, that our local rescue does is insult those who give up animals... but she does!

I always wonder how so called 'rescues' can be publically insulting to those who voluntarily give up animals to them and expect to 'rescue' more. In the case of the local rescue, they are 'shameless self-promoters' (not my words! those of a local business owner!) and plastered a press release all over everywhere that would make ANYONE re-consider surrendering a horse to them. I wanted to post the exact wording, but I can't find the copies of TWO local horse papers that printed it. It made me more than a little ill.


~Adrienne

THAT story struck a nerve. I HAVE a foundered horse. I've been fighting it since November of LAST YEAR! I've explained carefully a bazillion times to everyone that knows me wqhat is to happen "if I get hit by a bus". Bo is to be put down. His care is just too intense. Many times, I second guess my decision in my mind if saving him was the right thing to do, his care can be so involved. Then I slap myself and remind myself to be thankful. It's hard. How dare she box it up all neat like that. I ought to call this woman up and verbally wear her out. I'm absolutely incensed.

Any ole shoes disguise FOUNDER? Damn it people, why didn't *I* get the
memo??? Sure would have saved me and my guy some pain. "His feet were dead when he arrived...nothing to save...spent thousands to try to save him..."...what? Why does that just not make sense?

OK, the "put up or shut up" crowd saying to report her...it's obvious she's a fraud to me, but other than saying her site is bull hockey, so what? I mean, i feel like I have no real meat on her.

[moonpie]

I have a friend that had a bad experience with SWAP. She was allowed to return the horse after pressure but said when she returned it and a horse she was keeping as a foster that NO ONE came out to the barn. She had never been there before and just stuck them in stalls and left.

She also told me that SWAP will only take "nice" horses, hence they are not a rescue at all. It is a place to dump a horse for a tax write off and then SWAP adopts them out for a good amount of money.

[Miss Demeanor]

She also told me that SWAP will only take "nice" horses, hence they are not a rescue at all. It is a place to dump a horse for a tax write off and then SWAP adopts them out for a good amount of money.


Here's the problem. You can't get a tax write-off unless you are donating to a 501(c)(3) non-profit. I know Celeita tells donors they can get a tax write-off, and I'm almost certain she doesn't have 501(c)(3) status. She didn't the last dozen or so times I checked. Some donors have been audited and penalized.

I asked an IRS agent how it is possible that people who claim charitable deductions for donating a horse are audited and penalized, yet Celeita continues to be allowed to operate. He explained that the audit and investigative divisions of the IRS are totally different. They don't work with each other.

I've said nothing about "put up or shut up." I've suggested that it's pretty easy to report suspected fraud to the IRS. They'll do the investigating.

[Appassionato]

Here's the problem. You can't get a tax write-off unless you are donating to a 501(c)(3) non-profit. I know Celeita tells donors they can get a tax write-off, and I'm almost certain she doesn't have 501(c)(3) status. She didn't the last dozen or so times I checked. Some donors have been audited and penalized.

I asked an IRS agent how it is possible that people who claim charitable deductions for donating a horse are audited and penalized, yet Celeita continues to be allowed to operate. He explained that the audit and investigative divisions of the IRS are totally different. They don't work with each other.

I've said nothing about "put up or shut up." I've suggested that it's pretty easy to report suspected fraud to the IRS. They'll do the investigating.

Oh no ma'am, I didn't mean anyone said that exactly, that was completely my own wording. Not to mention, us sitting here complaining on the internet is rather useless. Please accept my apologies, I didn't mean to indicate anyone here did wrong in giving us information on how to stop these criminals. I'm angry about what they've written on their site, I feel that they are fraud or riding on the line of the law, and I feel at a bare minimum they need to be investigated. My "put up or shut up" was in too much passion on my side, not y'all's. For that I do apologize.

Now, as far as donating and tax write offs. I'm a leader in my 4-H horse club, and while 4-H does offer tax write-offs for donated horses, I don't handle any of that paperwork, I direct them to the 4-H heads. Just a question, how does that work in regards to 501c3's and 4-H, verses these guys? Just asking, so I can have some ammunition other than "I think they are fraudulent" when I do call the IRS. I guess I'm asking for the legalities on the matter?

[grace_herself]

maybe, we if we just called and asked them if we donated a horse, would it be tax deductable? and if they say yes, just ask them for thier tax exempt id number, or whatever it is, as i'm not knowledgable bout these things, then cross reference the number as jswan suggested.
if they say they are but cant provide you with one, then id say you have a VERY valid complaint of possible fraud.

[msrobin]

Wow that is shocking ! I have heard of the lady in south carolina that says she has cancer. She looks fine in the picture.

However I think they are going to have major problems with this site.
You cannot do this unless, it is a court case then it becomes public record
You cannot slander someone like that no matter what.
This is why their are laws against it due to crazy sites like this.

This to me would turn away any potential adopters.
I can see why they are doing it but it is the wrong way to handle it.
They should keep the list private unless someone specifically ask for it not publish it on the web.

I would be pissed if this were someone I knew.

NUTTY to say the least they better watch their backs

[Appassionato]

maybe, we if we just called and asked them if we donated a horse, would it be tax deductable? and if they say yes, just ask them for thier tax exempt id number, or whatever it is, as i'm not knowledgable bout these things, then cross reference the number as jswan suggested.
if they say they are but cant provide you with one, then id say you have a VERY valid complaint of possible fraud.

I wonder how quickly they would actually give the number to us? If they won't, I wonder if it's NOT fraud then?

[Appassionato]

How about starting with the local media (papers, tv, radio) and contacting a reporter whose work you trust there? There's usually at least one area paper that's interested in reporting the 'dirt' - in ours it's New Times, the weekly freebie paper, but I'm not sure what it would be in those parts.

I think calling the IRS is an excellent idea particularly for those who have donated and been led to believe that their donations are tax deductible. I'd be very curious as to what the receipts actually said or if they too skirt the legalities.

I have nothing against (reputable) horse traders OR breeders, but it's more than annoying when traders and breeders say that they are a 'rescue' when they are not. And I'm not talking about traders/breeders who help out the occasional horse - I'm talking about the ones that do big business in the name of 'rescue'.

EponaRoan, I think you hit the nail on the head. :yes:

[equineelders]

Originally Posted by grace_herself
maybe, we if we just called and asked them if we donated a horse, would it be tax deductable? and if they say yes, just ask them for thier tax exempt id number

I wonder how quickly they would actually give the number to us? If they won't, I wonder if it's NOT fraud then?

IF they are a 501c3, there are very specific disclosure requirements (including time frame for disclosing requested information) outlined in IRS Publication 557, Chapter 2. Filing Requirements and Required Disclosures.

(Small excerpt.........)
Time, place, and manner restrictions.
The annual returns and exemption application must be made available for inspection, without charge, at the organization's principal, regional, and district offices during regular business hours. The organization may have an employee present during inspection, but must allow the individual to take notes freely and to photocopy at no charge if the individual provides the photocopying equipment. Generally, regional and district offices are those
that have paid employees who together are normally paid at least 120 hours a week. If the organization does not maintain a permanent office, it must make its application for tax exemption and its annual information returns available for inspection at a reasonable location of its choice. It must permit public inspection within a reasonable amount of time after receiving a request for inspection (normally not more than 2 weeks) and at a reasonable time of day. At its option, it may mail, within 2 weeks of receiving the request, a copy of its application for tax exemption and annual information returns to the requester in lieu of allowing an inspection. The organization may charge the requester for copying and actual postage costs only if the requester consents to the charge.

An organization that has a permanent office, but has no office hours or very limited hours during certain times of the year, must make its documents available during those periods when office hours are limited or not available as though it were an organization without a permanent office.

Furnishing copies. An exempt organization also must provide a copy of all, or any specific part or schedule, of its three most recent annual information returns and/or exemption application to anyone who requests a copy either in person or in writing at its principal, regional or district office during regular business hours. If the individual made the request in person, the copy must be provided on the same business day the request is made unless there are unusual circumstances. Unusual circumstances are defined in section 301.6104(d)–1(d)(1)(ii) of the regulations. The organization must honor a written request for a copy of documents or specific parts or schedules of documents that are required to be disclosed. However, this rule only applies if the request:

• Is addressed to the exempt organization's principal, regional, or district ffice,
• Is sent to that address by mail, electronic mail (e-mail), facsimile (fax), or a private delivery service approved by the IRS, and
• Gives the address to where the copy of the document should be sent.

The organization must mail the copy within 30 days from the date it receives the request. The organization may request payment in advance and must then provide the copies within 30 days from the date it receives payment.

(Payment, here, refers to fees and postage for copying:
"Fees for copies. The organization may charge a reasonable fee for providing copies. It can charge no more for the copies than the per page rate the IRS charges for providing copies. That rate is stated in section 601.702(f)(5)(iv)(B) of the regulations. (As of June 2001, the rate was $1.00 for the first
page and 15 cents for each additional page.) The organization can also charge the actual postage costs it pays to provide the copies.")

[NowThatsATrot]

Good grief, that website gets more hideous every time I see it. Honestly, I made more professional-looking pages for my sim horses on expage.com eight years ago. XP

It's been years since I looked at them as a potential adoption source, and once upon a time I even considered the internship. But on both counts I was chased away by the contracts, costs, and other things that just didn't seem right... I had no idea there was this much fruitbattiness involved.

[Kap]

Chill, Cowgirl. Nobody said anyone was a hick.... I know I didn't. :confused:

And I don't have a pretty bubble lady. One guy I once knew had this inflatable girl, but that's as close as I've seen to a bubble lady. :lol:


:lol:

[SpoiledHorse]

Back at the time I was shafted by this group, I did go through some channels and reported them for Internet fraud. I had to fill out lots of paperwork, and apparently nothing much came of it. Honestly, it was one of those things that I ended up just letting go because I was expending too much negative energy, and I needed to move on. I suspect a lot of other folks have thrown in the towel for the same reason.

If I remember correctly, during the course of the report, I did speak with the police in her jurisdiction, as well as the police here at home. I do wonder what it would take to shut her down.

Interestingly, one of the people who gave me a hard time at SWAP is now on the blacklist. I shake my head.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

she sent me a harshly worded gem in which she states she never claimed to be a 501c3. She included the BS about how she's "more of an adoption program than a rescue" and that I have no idea what her program does for the horses. Actually, that's all she told me in most of her emails- that I don't know what she does and should stop writing to her because she's busy. She repeatedly said she didn't have time for "chat rooms" (after I mentioned COTH and invited her to defend herself on this thread)- yet for the TWO emails I sent her, she replied with EIGHT! Eight poorly written, crazy, ranting emails that I'm sure took her quite a while to compose and type... so I guess she's going to stick to "saving the horses" and most likely won't be visiting us here, though it would be interesting to have her here...

[Miss Demeanor]

Back at the time I was shafted by this group, I did go through some channels and reported them for Internet fraud. I had to fill out lots of paperwork, and apparently nothing much came of it. Honestly, it was one of those things that I ended up just letting go because I was expending too much negative energy, and I needed to move on. I suspect a lot of other folks have thrown in the towel for the same reason.

If I remember correctly, during the course of the report, I did speak with the police in her jurisdiction, as well as the police here at home. I do wonder what it would take to shut her down.

Interestingly, one of the people who gave me a hard time at SWAP is now on the blacklist. I shake my head.

That could be my story, word for word. There are hundreds of us out there that she's duped :cry: :cry: !

Interesting what she said to the last poster about never claiming to be a 501(c)(3). She told me that she was. Then when I found out she wasn't, she told me she thought she was but had "just discovered" that her CPA who was supposed to file the paperwork hadn't done it before he was killed in a motorcycle accident. I think it was back in 2000 or 2001 she told me this. The next year she told me she had contacted the IRS and that they were was going to give her retroactive 501(c)(3) status. The next year, when she still didn't have it, she told me to stop harrassing her (all I did was send her an e-mail asking her if she had it yet).

On her website (donor page), she says this:

Donations are tax-deductible to the extent of the law. Equine donors receive a letter of acknowledgement stating the horse was donated at the time of adoption or at the end of the year, which ever comes first. In many cases, but not all, the horse may be deducted at its fair market value (or appraised value if believed to be over $5000) depending on whether the horse was considered a business asset or not and on a depreciated schedule. A CPA should be consulted for accuracy.

We can quibble about whether that's an outright lie or just very misleading. I would say that a person reading it would assume they are dealing with a 501(c)(3) organization, since only donations to 501(c)(3) organizations are tax deductible.

As a law-abiding tax payer who has been audited, it infuriates me the authorities continue to let this wacko operate :mad: :mad: .

One more thing. I looked for her list of directors and advisors. Those sections are "under construction" on her website, and have been for years as far as I know.

Then I looked at the staff. Have you seen the pictures of her "trainers" riding? YIKES :eek: :eek: :eek: !

[BelladonnaLily]

If we had the Fair Tax her tax status would be a non-issue. ;) Then she'd be playing the same ballgame as the rest of us :yes:

Sorry, just had to throw that one in. :lol:

[equineelders]

That could be my story, word for word. There are hundreds of us out there that she's duped :cry: :cry:


Maybe the WV Secretary of State would be more interested??
http://www.wvsos.com/charity/main.htm

[blondmane]

OMG I KNOW one of the people listed on the "list!" I'm sure she wouldn't be happy to know she's on there.

[RainDancer]

Perhaps it would be advantagious to use the section that Miss Demeanor quoted and send it to the IRS frauds department. Send along with a cover letter stating that this woman is duping people into believing that they can claim the donation on their taxes. It is clear misreprensentation. She may have had a lawyer write it up so that it stays just this side of the law but enough poking around by the IRS may make her stop.

[MistyBlue]

Tried to check out the trainer selection page...but there weren't any pictures nor any info on it. Not sure if it was removed.
However it looks like they might rescue cattle too:
http://www.crossedsabers.com/images/people/guest%20house12.JPG

[pwynnnorman]

Y'know, I'm not one to slam an entire state, but since the talk has gotten to contacting local officials and the state attorney general, I gotta tell you that some of the image problems WV has had are more than image when it comes to politics and government. I sued a guy for taking my money and not building the barn we had a contract to build (causing me to have to find another place to put my horses after waiting all summer--and leaving them expose to the elements--for him to build it). The case had a bench trial on December 10th, 2002. Today, FOUR FRIGGIN YEARS LATER, the judge still has not ruled on the case. I call him on or near the 10th of the month, every single month. In December 2004, he actually answered the phone when I called and swore it was the next thing he'd do (apologizing profusely for the delay). Ever since then, he never answers the phone or returns my calls. His clerks say "it's on his desk" (which must be one BIG desk, if my case is any example). My lawyer has long since left his practice, his practice doesn't give a damn, and my opponent has probably died (he looked like a heart attack waiting to happen) or at least gone bankrupt if not hidden his funds. What can be done? Fill out a complaint form and wait for nothing to happen. You'd think calling the Dept. of Justice or the Attorney General would at least get someone to pick up the phone and find out what the heck is going on in Monongalia County, WV, but nope. That's not how things work in WV.

And so to make a short story even longer, realize that the local officials in the SWAP area are, I'm pretty sure based on what I've heard from other locals, HER FRIENDS. Appealing to them is NOT the way to go.

[horse_poor]

I just ran their name thru all of my sources to check for 501c status-I have them all bookmarked for the HorseCARE project--nothing came up.

A girl at our barn "adopted" a horse from them this summer-I sent her this thread as a heads up.

[Appassionato]

Not to mention guys, we all know about loopholes. 4-H is not 501c3 (at least as I understand it, please correct if I am wrong), yet we provide paperwork for tax write-offs for donated horses. If she playing under some other disguise like 4-H, and misleading more than just "us"?

I talked to a CPA just yesterday (came into the feed store). There were no illegalities in writing someone paperwork for tax write offs (Ie, I could write any of you this paper), but the illegality is on the end of the person claiming it (the recepient). I don't know how true this is, just reporting what I was told.

[Miss Demeanor]

Yes, 4-H is tax-exempt. Check it out yourself:

http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/4h_tax.pdf

The ruling issued to the Department of Agriculture by the Internal Revenue Service April 24, 1946, recognized that 4-H Clubs were exempt from Federal income tax under section 101(6) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1939, which corresponds to section 501(c)(3) of the 1986 Code.

I wouldn't rely on advice from an accountant coming into a feed store who doesn't have the complete story. Fraud is a crime, whether or not it's technically a violation of the tax code.

I'm curious as to why you are you defending this person. Would you feel differently if you had donated a horse expecting to get a $10,000 write-off only to discover you were lied to?

[J Swan]

Actually - it is illegal to pose as a charity.

Not all tax exempt orgs ar 501(c)(3)'s. There are other type of organizations such as 170(b)'s (foundations).

However, the subject of this thread is not tax exempt in any way shape or form.

Never rely on the representations of any "charity". Insist on seeing their IRS letter and check it against the IRS. Exempt orgs have their status revoked or suspended all the time (mostly for failing to file paperwork on time). Even big charities get in trouble for private inurment, UBIT, and other bozo no-no's. One I can think of offhand is The Nature Conservancy. Not exactly a small charity. ARC got into hot water too.

If any of y'all volunteer or work for any exempt orgs, just be advised that you should not be providing valuations of any donated good. If a valuation is required, (such as donating real estate), an independent appraiser should be retained by the DONOR.

Philanthropy is a wonderful thing. It can also be quite complicated. There are limits to donors on how much they can deduct, there are strict limitations on what an exempt org can and cannot do.

And when you get some knucklehead "posing" as a charity - regardless of what a CPA said in the feed store - it's a federal offense, as well as an offense in each state in which any transaction occurred.

It's morally offensive too; but the public MUST be able to rely upon the representations made by exempt organizations; or our system of charitable works in the US collapses. Americans are extraordinarily generous - and will give till it hurts. But often - they just assume that anyone who says they are a "charity" are really exempt.

In this case - going to the media is a waste of time. Just call en masse to the IRS fraud number.




Not to mention guys, we all know about loopholes. 4-H is not 501c3 (at least as I understand it, please correct if I am wrong), yet we provide paperwork for tax write-offs for donated horses. If she playing under some other disguise like 4-H, and misleading more than just "us"?

I talked to a CPA just yesterday (came into the feed store). There were no illegalities in writing someone paperwork for tax write offs (Ie, I could write any of you this paper), but the illegality is on the end of the person claiming it (the recepient). I don't know how true this is, just reporting what I was told.

[Appassionato]

Yes, 4-H is tax-exempt. Check it out yourself:

http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/4h_tax.pdf



I wouldn't rely on advice from an accountant coming into a feed store who doesn't have the complete story. Fraud is a crime, whether or not it's technically a violation of the tax code.

I'm curious as to why you are you defending this person. Would you feel differently if you had donated a horse expecting to get a $10,000 write-off only to discover you were lied to?

I know 4-H is tax exempt. I'm a leader. I was wondering if she posing underneath that instead of 501c3 as well. Criminals get awfully crafty when doors start shutting. It's why I wasn't stuck on whether or not she has the 501c3 status. I was wondering what other avenues this woman might be taking.

Good heavens NO I'm not defending this woman! Quite the opposite! Just trying to get everything together before calling whoever we all need to in order to get her busted with more than "I think this woman is fraud". Trying to get as much "meat" as I can here, that's all!

[Sonesta]

Just as an aside. I don't know the laws in WV, but in Texas you can have a "non-profit organization" under the Texas laws. But for tax-exempt status, you still have to jump through the hoops of the IRS for approval.

So, in Texas a horse rescue could advertise itself as "non-profit" and be telling the legal truth even if it was not a tax-exempt organization under the tax code.

[J Swan]

I'm familiar with what you are saying - in this case (based upon the content of the website) they appear to be asserting they're IRS exempt.

But who knows.......

Usually an exempt org that solicits contributions that are not deductible is of a political nature - I don't remember offhand all the code sections. Police and Fire, political groups/lobbyists.... that sort of thing. And there is specific verbiage required in the receipt.

I must say I'm quite curious to know the outcome.

[Appassionato]

BTW, just a note, I found on their site in "About Us" toward the bottom:

"Though the Second Wind Adoption Program is not a Rescue operation we try not to turn down any horse in need. We have and will take horses that are considered rescue horses when the need arises. Defined as horses that have been taken by authorities for abuse/neglect or lack of care and abandoned horses."

Again, I am NOT defending them. Having worked in law enforcement and lawyers, I'm familiar with building a case instead of running to the IRS screaming, "That woman is a fraud!" and them present me with information that protects her. I'm trying to find the exact spot in which she hasn't covered.

[J Swan]

Yeah - I saw that. The whole thing is riddle with contradicting statements. It does not make sense at all.

[Appassionato]

Yeah - I saw that. The whole thing is riddle with contradicting statements. It does not make sense at all.

What are you talking about? That whole site doesn't make sense! ;)

I'm not trying to argue with you guys...trying to help find a solution. This woman needs to be stopped. The founder thing stomped all over my last nerve. She burned my britches with that one. And yes, she does come off as "charity", "rescue"...without using some of the nomenclature. And we know how the courts are with nomenclature...hence I ask all these questions. Yeah, she's a dirtbag and if she were closer, I'd pay her a friendly visit. Probably have the police called on me, oh well. But i don't have that luxury here broke in middle GA. :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

In a number of places on the site she solicits donations. That alone implies it is a charity.

Buried elsewhere in one of her rants against a former adopter or donor is a statement to the effect that it is not a "rescue," but rather "rescue prevention." I believe that was in response to complaint about a misrepresentation that the donated horse would be a tax write-off, but I would have to look at that section again to be sure.

[Tiempo]

Another odd thing that caught my eye on the blacklist was how at least 2 of the people mentioned were accused of 'grossly misrepresenting thier homes' on thier applications,but then goes on to state that they were boarding the horses.
If they are boarding,what on earth do their homes have to do with anything?

[Appassionato]

Another odd thing that caught my eye on the blacklist was how at least 2 of the people mentioned were accused of 'grossly misrepresenting thier homes' on thier applications,but then goes on to state that they were boarding the horses.
If they are boarding,what on earth do their homes have to do with anything?

Yep. Makes no sense.

In their "Accomplishments":

"-Experience with being expert witness in equine legal affairs with civil and criminal court cases, assisting in putting horse con artist in jail, horse traders that comment crimes every day by putting horses and people in harms way by lying about the horse, its age and capabilities and drugging horses so they can be ridden, helping to expose people that abuse/neglect horses and these con artist that cheat people daily in the horse world.
-Highlighted by the media on TV (Horse TV, NBC and ABC News), Radio (PBS/PBR), Ladies Home Journal, Wild Wonderful West Virginia Magazine, Michael Plumbs Horse Journal and upcoming March 2006 the Practical Horseman, along with several state and regional publications.
-Our adoption contract has been upheld in the court systems in 5 states. It’s a strong document that protects the horse and is fair and respectful to both the donor and adopter. SWAP recovers horses from adopters when they have breached the adoption contract, files criminal complaints when what they have done to the horse is against the law."

Especially what I put in bold makes me question that these folks are really experienced at what they do. not saying that just because they claim it it is true, but it's certainly ballsy!

[MistyBlue]

Wow, I hate it when people "comment" crimes. That's just mean. :winkgrin:

Their word usage and choices sound amazingly like reading a 13 year old's blog online. Not just the mistakes made in words chosen...but by the sentence structure and ranting qualities.

[Miss Demeanor]

Again, I am NOT defending them. Having worked in law enforcement and lawyers, I'm familiar with building a case instead of running to the IRS screaming, "That woman is a fraud!"

Actually, it's not your responsibility to build a case. I'm an attorney and very familiar with the system. A case starts with a complaint that is then investigated by the authorities -- for example, the FBI. You are not expected to do your own investigation. That's what FBI agents and IRS agents get paid for. The investigation is confidential. At some point the person being investigated may get what is called a "target letter" telling them they are being investigated. After the initial investigation is completed, an Assistant U.S. Attorney reviews the case and makes the decision whether to prosecute. (More accurately, the AUSA usually makes a recommendation to their supervisor, who makes the decision.) This could take years. Think of the Wesley Snipes case. He has just now been indicted for allegedly filing false returns in 1996 and 1997. For all we know, Celeita is being investigated as we speak.

[Appassionato]

Actually, you are wrong. I'm an attorney and very familiar with the system. A case starts with a complaint that is investigated by the authorities -- for example, the FBI. You are not expected to do your own investigation. That's what FBI agents and IRS agents get paid for. The investigation is confidential. At some point the person being investigated may get what is called a "target letter" telling them they are being investigated. After the initial investigation is completed, an Assistant U.S. Attorney reviews the case and makes the decision whether to prosecute. (More accurately, the AUSA usually makes a recommendation to their supervisor, who makes the decision.) This could take years. Think of the Wesley Snipes case. He has just now been indicted for allegedly filing false returns in 1996 and 1997. For all we know, Celeita is being investigated as we speak.

Please, Appasionato, don't call the IRS if you are uncomfortable doing so, but don't try to dissuade other people from doing so by giving information that's inaccurate and saying you are familiar with "building a case" when it's obvious to me you are not. Feel free to PM me if you want more information.

I haven't tried to dissuade a single soul here. But calling the IRS or FBI and claiming that someone has an unprofessional site or "I got advice that I should call, got it from the internet" just doesn't hold water. That was my point of investigating...to know what in the world we are talking about, with less emotion and more facts.

I realize you were wronged. I'd be pissed too. But what exactly are we to do about it? After dialing the number, what should we say? If this is so locked in stone and so prosecutable, go for it. Tell us how it goes. This person does need to be stopped. Being angry at me doesn't solve any problems.

[mazu]

I haven't tried to dissuade a single soul here. But calling the IRS or FBI and claiming that someone has an unprofessional site or "I got advice that I should call, got it from the internet" just doesn't hold water. That was my point of investigating...to know what in the world we are talking about, with less emotion and more facts.

I realize you were wronged. I'd be pissed too. But what exactly are we to do about it? After dialing the number, what should we say? If this is so locked in stone and so prosecutable, go for it. Tell us how it goes. This person does need to be stopped. Being angry at me doesn't solve any problems.

Thing is, the IRS has a method in place for concerned people who have nothing more than a weird feeling that something isn't right to let them (the IRS) know about it. And my completely uneducated understanding of nonprofit laws is that you can't go about claiming nonprofit status without actually having it--so the website itself might be a problem, legally speaking, and anyone who's seen it has a right to make their concerns known to the IRS. It's not like anyone is planning on calling FBI headquarters and saying, "Hey, there's this eye-bleedingly poorly designed thing on the Internets!" and expecting a SWAT team to rain down fire and brimstone in WVa; it's just a tip! You're not expected to have all kinds of evidence for a tip, that's what investigations are for. Sharing one's concerns about a self-proclaimed nonprofit group is a perfectly legitimate way of using the procedures already in place.

I must say that I've never seen less support for the pile-on-ee in any COTH pile-on. Hmm.

[goeslikestink]

you know when i said -- shes says shes prevention ---

then look into the word prevention

prevention of that what she says

of what -- horses - nope taxes to be desired -- people um --money

she says shes a non proift -- shes says she preventing ---

but she takes ok --

[JetdecksComet]

Wow... that website blew my mind.

That "Black List" is the most unprofessional thing I have ever seen.

As someone else said... state the name, and what they are accused of doing, ie--starve horses, moved without permission, sold horses, etc.

Her ideas on horse-keeping are all over the place.

She says to let the horses stay outside so that they don't become sissies with no savvy. So, then, blanketing a horse would also make it a sissy, correct? Not according to her... she says that not blanketing a horse in the winter is abusive because they aren't roaming free like "wild" horses. Yet, in the pictures of her farm (on the "farm for sale" page) I see horses outside in the winter snow with no blankets on.

Wait!!!
What is that in the sky?
Is it a bird???
A plane???

NO!

It's a giant Fruitbat!!!

[J Swan]

I can't help but be reminded of the infamous "VSH" thread with over 1000 posts. And that person was engaging in perfectly legal activity; albeit with an unusual business model; and the only illegal conduct was scratching out the originating owner's address on the Coggins - so that folks didn't go straight to her source. (Not excusing altering Coggins). Yet she was threatened with harm, accused of being a kill buyer, and there was an organized effort to damage the reputation of the business, as well as inundate her with emails and phone calls. That business owner actually lost clients and had deals fall through due to the interference with her business.

And folks thought that was "fun".

And this one - geez - it's ho-hum. Who cares. Guess it's not as much fun to inform the authorities of possible illegal transactions - only harass innocent people.

Well - I did my part and contacted the IRS and asked them to investigate. If this is all a misunderstanding - no harm is done.



I must say that I've never seen less support for the pile-on-ee in any COTH pile-on. Hmm.

[Appassionato]

Thing is, the IRS has a method in place for concerned people who have nothing more than a weird feeling that something isn't right to let them (the IRS) know about it. And my completely uneducated understanding of nonprofit laws is that you can't go about claiming nonprofit status without actually having it--so the website itself might be a problem, legally speaking, and anyone who's seen it has a right to make their concerns known to the IRS. It's not like anyone is planning on calling FBI headquarters and saying, "Hey, there's this eye-bleedingly poorly designed thing on the Internets!" and expecting a SWAT team to rain down fire and brimstone in WVa; it's just a tip! You're not expected to have all kinds of evidence for a tip, that's what investigations are for. Sharing one's concerns about a self-proclaimed nonprofit group is a perfectly legitimate way of using the procedures already in place.

I must say that I've never seen less support for the pile-on-ee in any COTH pile-on. Hmm.

*I* wasn't being unsupportive. Pages have gone on in this thread talking about this woman's false 501c3 status. My only question was could she be hiding behind something else? Sounds like she's messed over a lot of people. I would guess that a few of these people have reported it. It seems as if nothing is done. Hence it was my desire to find out facts, then report. So far, I've been accusing of defending her...from a lawyer of all people. That blows my mind.

[J Swan]

I understand what you are saying -and I know you are not supporting or condoning illegal activity.

As with all things gov't related - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. You have to inundate the IRS with complaints - and in writing is best. There is a form you can print out on the IRS link I posted.

Think about how hard it is to get the USDA to crack down on violations of slaughter bound transport. It's often just as hard to get the IRS to pay attention to something like this.

*I* wasn't being unsupportive. Pages have gone on in this thread talking about this woman's false 501c3 status. My only question was could she be hiding behind something else? Sounds like she's messed over a lot of people. I would guess that a few of these people have reported it. It seems as if nothing is done. Hence it was my desire to find out facts, then report. So far, I've been accusing of defending her...from a lawyer of all people. That blows my mind.

[Appassionato]

I understand what you are saying -and I know you are not supporting or condoning illegal activity.

As with all things gov't related - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. You have to inundate the IRS with complaints - and in writing is best. There is a form you can print out on the IRS link I posted.

Think about how hard it is to get the USDA to crack down on violations of slaughter bound transport. It's often just as hard to get the IRS to pay attention to something like this.

Exactly J Swan, and thank you. I merely tried to explain that criminals find new ways to hide. She's talked about some Evelyn woman that started the whole thing, for all we know she's got some "foundation" under that. She's mentioned scholarships. I haven't said the woman is innocent, fact is, I think she's the worst kind of slime. People were owed their tax write offs, period. Under whatever disguise she has today.

I reported a "friend" of my ex's twice for employing illegal immigrants. Millionaire at that. Nothing was done. Perhaps it was the fact that it was only *I* reporting. So I agree with the possibility and even probability that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. No questioning of that from me! But if everyone calls and screams "501c3" on this woman and she provides really good looking other kinds of documents (foundation for the woman she said started the program?), even if she's using the system and it could even be false, she walks. I don't want that. Hence I tried to find info that was unbreakable. From what people have said here, she won't show you her info, she's hiding behind something. I want to know what it is. As I mentioned, real rescues, real charities, real foundations have hard enough times. This woman puts a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I hear you about the slaughter thing. It turns my stomach and I try to turn off early once I see feathers on I-16 here in GA. For those of you that may be wondering what I am talking about, I'm talking about the chickens over-crammed in cages, unprotected from wind, the wind opens the cages, at 70 mph...need I go on? People who own chickens know what I mean about the protection from wind. Their eyes don't take it well. But so what, they are just chickens, right?

[SBT]

she sent me a harshly worded gem in which she states she never claimed to be a 501c3. She included the BS about how she's "more of an adoption program than a rescue" and that I have no idea what her program does for the horses. Actually, that's all she told me in most of her emails- that I don't know what she does and should stop writing to her because she's busy. She repeatedly said she didn't have time for "chat rooms" (after I mentioned COTH and invited her to defend herself on this thread)- yet for the TWO emails I sent her, she replied with EIGHT! Eight poorly written, crazy, ranting emails that I'm sure took her quite a while to compose and type... so I guess she's going to stick to "saving the horses" and most likely won't be visiting us here, though it would be interesting to have her here...


FrenchFry, you're going to post those e-mails, right? ;) :yes:

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

do not write here again. You don't know what you are talking about and you don't know anything about this program. If you did, you would not say the things you say. We do not need people like you around us or wasting our time, unlike you, we have better things to do like helping horses and horse people.

Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/


Crossed Sabers Stable and The Second Wind Adoption Program
"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 10 years of Service to Horses and the Horse Industry, 1996 - 2006


The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi

How you respond to the challenge in the second half will determine what you become after the game, whether you are a winner or a loser.
Lou Holtz

^^^^^^^^^
This is the first email she sent me in response to my questions regarding her 501c3 status. After sending this, she blocked my aol email adress. I then emailed her via my hotmail account, though I have since deleted those due to a limited amount of space left in my mailbox. Nonetheless, I certainly encourage anyone else to drop her a line and mention COTH as she felt it was a "silly chat room" when in fact, I believe COTH is some of the best publicity (be it positive or negative) that a business or organization in this industry can get. Her email adress is secondwindadopt@aol.com

[Lisamarie8]

I had some dealings with this lunatic a few years ago. I was amazed at her inability to think rationally or to string together a series of logistical thoughts. She seemed angry, defensive, and unprofessional. I think I still have the entire e-mail correspondance at home.

loony loony loony.

[WBLover]

I can't believe that she not only publishes her own "blacklist", but posts any other random e-mail or comment she gets from someone else on her website. Any disgruntled horse purchaser who didn't exercise "buyer beware" or who purchased a horse that was unsuitable for them could send her an e-mail, and she'll put it up? Wow!!!

This site has gotten way out of hand last time I visited it--about 3 years ago. I thought it was a little questionable then because some of the adoption fees seemed a little high. Now she's got "adoption fees" going up to $8000??? I could see trying to recover the expense of getting a horse back to health if it was neglected or abused, but these horses came to her in good condition, she's just trying to get market value for them which is NOT the purpose of a rescue.

[zagafi]

Interestingly, page 102 of this month's Dressage Today has a "horses wanted" listing in the classifieds from none other than Second Wind Adoptions. The words TAX DEDUCTIBLE are very clearly stated in the ad. The web address is www.crossedsabers.com and there is a phone number as well. Interesting stuff...

[Appassionato]

do not write here again. You don't know what you are talking about and you don't know anything about this program. If you did, you would not say the things you say. We do not need people like you around us or wasting our time, unlike you, we have better things to do like helping horses and horse people.

Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/


Crossed Sabers Stable and The Second Wind Adoption Program
"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 10 years of Service to Horses and the Horse Industry, 1996 - 2006


The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi

How you respond to the challenge in the second half will determine what you become after the game, whether you are a winner or a loser.
Lou Holtz

^^^^^^^^^
This is the first email she sent me in response to my questions regarding her 501c3 status. After sending this, she blocked my aol email adress. I then emailed her via my hotmail account, though I have since deleted those due to a limited amount of space left in my mailbox. Nonetheless, I certainly encourage anyone else to drop her a line and mention COTH as she felt it was a "silly chat room" when in fact, I believe COTH is some of the best publicity (be it positive or negative) that a business or organization in this industry can get. Her email adress is secondwindadopt@aol.com

See, I'd personally love for her to come in here and explain a LOT of things...maybe we all should email her?

[shawneeAcres]

This sort of thing on the net is LUDICROUS and the people compiling this list hopefully will get a lawsuit!!! This is definitely slander. I looked thru the list and at the bottom they allowed some people to post "their" blacklist. I PERSONALLY have used The Everharts of Snake River Equine transport. THey are no longer in business due to otehr endeavours, but they are WONDERFUL PEOPLE, they take INCREDIBLE care of horses they transport are RESONABLY priced and do a fbulous job of comminication. Obvioulsy, someone had a bone to pick and there fore put up their name on this site, how TERRIBLE that this site would ALLOW that. Because I had PERSONAL DEALINGS with this company and these people, and KNOW that what was posted about them is FALSE, I would STRONGLY SUSPECT the others are as well!!!!! The Everharts (NO they are NOT related to me in any way, it was kind funny when I found out their last name was the same as me and my husband) tranposted my stallion to me from Idaho and he arrived in absoultey the BEST SHAPE I have ever seen a horse that spent five days on the road. He was offloaded EVERY NIGHT and looked like I had just led him out of the pasture when he stepped off the truck. I jsut canot BELIEVE the stuff that is on the net and that people BELIEVE everything they read!

[Appassionato]

This sort of thing on the net is LUDICROUS and the people compiling this list hopefully will get a lawsuit!!! This is definitely slander. I looked thru the list and at the bottom they allowed some people to post "their" blacklist. I PERSONALLY have used The Everharts of Snake River Equine transport. THey are no longer in business due to otehr endeavours, but they are WONDERFUL PEOPLE, they take INCREDIBLE care of horses they transport are RESONABLY priced and do a fbulous job of comminication. Obvioulsy, someone had a bone to pick and there fore put up their name on this site, how TERRIBLE that this site would ALLOW that. Because I had PERSONAL DEALINGS with this company and these people, and KNOW that what was posted about them is FALSE, I would STRONGLY SUSPECT the others are as well!!!!! The Everharts (NO they are NOT related to me in any way, it was kind funny when I found out their last name was the same as me and my husband) tranposted my stallion to me from Idaho and he arrived in absoultey the BEST SHAPE I have ever seen a horse that spent five days on the road. He was offloaded EVERY NIGHT and looked like I had just led him out of the pasture when he stepped off the truck. I jsut canot BELIEVE the stuff that is on the net and that people BELIEVE everything they read!

You know, I think everyone here that knows someone on the blacklist (such as above), should contact that person. Maybe that will shut this nut Celeita down. But, that's my opinion. I'd do it if it were my friend on there.

[nightsong]

I think that's a REALLY GOOD idea, Apassionato. We need to let these people know, ANYWAY, that their good names are bing maligned. And once they know, especially if htey've been given the additional information that this person/organization is involved in patently illegal activities, well you kind of have a prescription for FIXING this nightmare.

[pwynnnorman]

What about the publications which run their ads that say "tax deductible"? I once contacted the FTC (that's the agency which covers false advertising) and they said they rely primarily on the "self-policing" of advertisers by the magazines (etc.) which publish them. When I contacted Practical Horseman about the specific ad I had found to be deceptive (this was over a decade ago), they were receptive but didn't need to act from that angle since the individual also hadn't paid (or the check bounced or something like that), so she was already on their blacklist (I'm not talking about the SWAP person--I was having a run in with someone else at the time).

[MoonBallad]

It seems to me that this person is very obviously a dealer that calls herself and adoption center in order to not only retain ownership of the horses she sells and "oversee" their lives in their new homes but it also "allows" her to ask for donations of horses, goods, services and cash.
What is it with so many of the "rescues" we are hearing about lately??? First we had Pet's Alive looking for donations for the jacuzzi in their B&B and now this lady asking for people to pay the farm mortgage on her new home (with the ingound pool, sauna, two fireplaces, guest house and soon to be indoor arena!) And BOTH of those rescues asking people to donate working trucks to them! Wow! What a bad picture they paint and how sad sice its people like them that make people so suspect when a legitimate rescue tries fundraising for the legitmate needs of their horses.
They scariest part of places like these is that people keep giving them animals!

[horse_poor]

I emailed her and asked if she wanted to participate in HorseCARE-will she if she responds.

[Red]

Dear Lord, that site gives me a headache. Someone should give her hints on website construction....maybe more of her horses would be "adopted" :-)

[SpoiledHorse]

I dug around in my old computer and found a number of letters between Celeita, my vet, an instructor, a boarder, a student, another rescue and another adopter of the same pony that kind of outlines the insanity. My experience was in 2001. If anyone wants to read the letters, shoot me a PT, and I'll send you the document. What a mess!

[VWBug]

I've read Spoiled's letters from this lady and Celeita is certifiably whackadoodle. The correspondence from her is so horrible it's funny. Well, funny to me, since I never had to deal with her.

[tidy rabbit]

$7K for an adaption horse? ARE they crazy? I pay you $7K and then I can't do what I want to with the horse? That's rediculous. Seems like the common denominator for craziness and deals gone bad is the person in charge of the "Adoptions". 7K for an adoption. That kills me.

[Appassionato]

I've read Spoiled's letters from this lady and Celeita is certifiably whackadoodle. The correspondence from her is so horrible it's funny. Well, funny to me, since I never had to deal with her.

Exactly. I got it too. And I mean to tell you...the very last letter sent? I literally LOL as if watching Celeita get the virtual smack down but IRL! :lol:

Not funny what happened at all to those involved with Spoiled, but Celeita needs to be shut down if she's playing with the IRS, and illegally. I could care less that she's an idiot and unprofessional, it's the tax thing. I'm thinking tomorrow night, bare minimum, PHONE CARD TIME! :cool:

And darn it, I've got to put on my nice face and do 4-H tonight. And study for a major exam. May have to happen tomorrow. You people that know someone on that site being badmouthed? Do your duties of contacting them and let them go after Celeita. ;)

[summerhorse]

Wonder if that lady has seen this yet?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-10-internet-defamation-case_x.htm

[Appassionato]

Wonder if that lady has seen this yet?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-10-internet-defamation-case_x.htm


Better yet, all of you that know someone on her list, show them this site!

[Casper W. W.]

I am curious -- I always think of an equine rescue as a place that takes in horses in dire straights: ie; SPCA cases referred to them, starvations where they get owner to turn animal over voluntarily to avoid charges, animals rescued at auction from going to the "killers", etc. I truly never heard of a rescue having to advertise for horses. However, I have never seen a rescue site that has adoption fees such as $8,000. :confused:

[Riva]

I love the fact that she has this quote

"You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Be part of the solution."


on the front page of her website!

Umm...can we say oxy-moron with an emphasis on "moron" in her case?
[/LEFT]

I think we should come up with a form letter asking the same questions and everyone send it to her.

[eventgroupie2]

I am new to this site- but was also a "part" of SWAP until I realized what was going on. I have adopted SWAP horses, and they are very much a part of my life. But Miss Demeamor is totally correct in her assessment of the situation. Neither Crossed Sabers, nor SWAP are incorporated, therefore cannot be a 501(c)3. I have approached the director and have gotten the same reply, and then have been banned from contacting her. Surprisingly enough, I still receive her "sale" announcements. But the account that Miss Demeanor reported about the supposed death of the accountant, etc. are totally factual as far as we were told.... I lived through them, too. I have also seen first hand the conditions at the stable in WV. Will not bore you with gory details, but the conditions there on the times I visited were not good, to say the least.

[minnie]

So if the tax status is fraudulent does that mean that the adoptions themselves are not valid? I thought it rather humerous that for another exorbitant fee you could "own" the horse outright after a few years, but yet you still have to abide by the conditions of the adoption? I'm totally confused.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

A new update on the www.crossedsabres.com website (it has taken me all this time to read it because of the awful layout and eye-bleeding graphics):

"Congratulations to our Executor for her selection and award for the International Who's Who of Professional and Business Women for 2006/2007. Kudos!!"

Who awards the title "International Who's Who of Professional and Business Women", anyway? I seriously doubt they looked at her web site, and read the "blacklist" in particular.
I also read the document from Spoiledhorse. The woman is delusional. She isn't a horsewoman (some inexplicitable riding in the photos on the web site), and she isn't a business woman.

[mazu]

A new update on the www.crossedsabres.com website (it has taken me all this time to read it because of the awful layout and eye-bleeding graphics):

"Congratulations to our Executor for her selection and award for the International Who's Who of Professional and Business Women for 2006/2007. Kudos!!" Who awards the title "International Who's Who of Professional and Business Women", anyway? I seriously doubt they looked at her web site, and read the "blacklist" in particular.

If it's anything like the Who's Who for students, it's just an expensive way for big egos to see their name in print.

I'm kind of curious how she qualifies as a businesswoman though ... I don't see anything on her bleating biography (http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/Executor.htm) that's remotely businessy, unless of course you consider SWAP a business. But we know that that's impossible, because people can't make a business out of $5-10k donation horses, can they? You're not even covering costs at that level, heck you can barely afford a pool!!!

(If she IS admitting it's a business, that's a good start I guess. Baby steps.)

[goeslikestink]

looking ata different prospective-- shes a bisiness looking at the weby page as holidays in the saddle kinda thingy as x sabres they are dear you dont think she get theses neddies ride the crap out them and then puts them up for adoption
like as they alirght kinda thing when she gets them then nackers them out themselves --then say they are adoption programme iam thinking if shes abusiness then it comes under business tax-- hence the non profit-- thing

she avading the tax by saying shes a adotive programme to get tax redution
that would make sense as she didnt she or some say that tax deductable

this is where they havent looked - shes sly as a fox bit like al copone
advaing taxes way back when except it horses

i dunno what an 501c is i can only assume it tax of somesort
--
i give you a for instance -if someone sponsored someone via abusiness
they can put the money in say 20,000 to sposnsor a horse for sj lets say
in return the rider the perosn they sponsoring has there name blighted out all over the place - that company get free advertisement with shows as being annonced as -- horses name-- jingles joe say and jingles joe has it written on thre coats blankets and horse box etc
the company can wirte it of as a taxable thing and would really only pay out 2000.
via the tax man --

in most there are heaps of companies that suopport riders and events in this way officially and normally one or two things wwhereby they are well established and known--

i think that they have taken it to extremes as its with everything
and not just one thing so they got well known and can charge heaps for what they do -- what do you think -- or am i nuts --

[SpoiledHorse]

A new update on the www.crossedsabres.com website (it has taken me all this time to read it because of the awful layout and eye-bleeding graphics):

"Congratulations to our Executor for her selection and award for the International Who's Who of Professional and Business Women for 2006/2007. Kudos!!"
Hoofprints...just a quick note. Your link took me to a dude ranch rather than to SWAP. SWAP's address is www.crossedsabers.com. Just wanted to avoid any confusion and possible besmirching of the dude ranch's name. :)

[Coup De Des]

Oh are we still wasting our time on the nutbags of the equine world?


;) C'mon... Someone MUST have some new gossip by now!

[J Swan]

Nope - no gossip.

Just a letter to the IRS; which I encourage all of you to do. Turn that energy towards doing some good.

But Coup De Des - when she gets arrested I promise to send you the newspaper clippings!

[Appassionato]

Nope - no gossip.

Just a letter to the IRS; which I encourage all of you to do. Turn that energy towards doing some good.

But Coup De Des - when she gets arrested I promise to send you the newspaper clippings!

J Swan, would you mind PT'ing me what you wrote? Just trying to make sure I have enough info to send on her, see if there's anything I should add.

[minnie]

OMG! I just read the contract for donating a horse. Anyone doing that must be totally insane! Not only are you giving your horse away, you're paying for the privilege! Totally Unbelievable!

[kaye]

As someone who made the painful decision to donate to this program several years ago (when the site was less....populated...) I can tell you that my experience was a nightmare. I hesitate to go into too many details in the event that Celeita might choose to unleash on me again, but it wasn't pretty. I wouldn't wish my experience on anyone - and I truly believed I was doing a good thing for a great horse I could no longer afford and was afraid to sell into the unknown until it was too late.

I have never forgiven myself.

That said, the only "tax" document I ever got from Second Wind (labeled "SWAP Headquarters located at Crossed Sabers Stables") "congratulated" me on the placement of my horse, gave the adopter contact information and offered to allow me contact with the adopters. The very bottom of the form states:

"Thank you for your donation to the Second Wind Adoption Program, (Tax #55-0764689 of NAME/DESCRIPTION with the estimated value of $XXX donated on DATE. No services or property was given to the donor in exchange for their donation. They received nothing in return. If you need an IRS form 8283 signed by us, please fill it out and send it to the above listed address for my signature."

[Appassionato]

As someone who made the painful decision to donate to this program several years ago (when the site was less....populated...) I can tell you that my experience was a nightmare. I hesitate to go into too many details in the event that Celeita might choose to unleash on me again, but it wasn't pretty. I wouldn't wish my experience on anyone - and I truly believed I was doing a good thing for a great horse I could no longer afford and was afraid to sell into the unknown until it was too late.

I have never forgiven myself.

That said, the only "tax" document I ever got from Second Wind (labeled "SWAP Headquarters located at Crossed Sabers Stables") "congratulated" me on the placement of my horse, gave the adopter contact information and offered to allow me contact with the adopters. The very bottom of the form states:

"Thank you for your donation to the Second Wind Adoption Program, (Tax #55-0764689 of NAME/DESCRIPTION with the estimated value of $XXX donated on DATE. No services or property was given to the donor in exchange for their donation. They received nothing in return. If you need an IRS form 8283 signed by us, please fill it out and send it to the above listed address for my signature."

Just a question, did you sign it and turn it in? Get a response? Follow up? Report it?

[J Swan]

I'm sorry - I just printed out the form to report tax fraud/abuse and filled it out. Didn't save a copy.

Basically just said this place may be posing as a nonprofit, or may be abusing its nonprofit status if it is a nonprofit, if it is a nonprofit it is provided illegal valuations, or that it is being used to avoid taxes on business transactions. That sort of thing.



J Swan, would you mind PT'ing me what you wrote? Just trying to make sure I have enough info to send on her, see if there's anything I should add.