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sm
Nov. 16, 2006, 12:38 PM
who is condemming who here?

It is so funny, you cannot respond intelligently so you try personal attacks. And proceed to have a meltdown -- too funny!

And if it's a CLINIC then don't present it as a Global DISCUSSION Forum -- make up your minds. And read eurodressage, both links I posted -- both reports from 2005 and 2006 -- indicate a disappointing lack of real discussion.

Once again from Eurodressage, because you seem to be missing the point yet again and insisting otherwise, " The absence of the top German dressage riders and trainers at the 2006 Global Dressage Forum was very striking and a great pity... "

So glad I linked a couple of times throughout this thread to eurodressage's reports on 2005 and 2006...

Tonja
Nov. 16, 2006, 12:59 PM
sm, you made some very good points. It’s not surprising that some might feel hostile. Oh, well.

sm
Nov. 16, 2006, 01:22 PM
hostility and temper tantrums seem to go with the territory:

GDF 2006: "Unfortunately, Niemann was unable to engage in a real discussion or represent her magazine’s viewpoint on the rollkur.... Janssen refused debate with German journalists Birgit Popp and Niemann. “I don’t talk to selective hearers,” Janssen said. Popp asked Janssen if he considered ‘learned helplessness as a tool too,’ which inflamed him and made the whole debate boil over with heated emotion. " http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep7.html

Anyway Tonja, I saw my horse today and he was fabulous. Trainer was there, a little piaffe and passage. His energy was so good, he was so playful. So this here is nothing. I hope you have a good ride too!

Coreene
Nov. 16, 2006, 05:21 PM
Coreene of course flies the orange flag all day long....nothing wrong with that
Wilhelmus van Nassouwe
Ben ik van Duitsen bloed
Den vaderland getrouwe
Blijf ik tot in den dood
Een Prince van Oranjen
Ben ik vrij onverveerd
Den Koning van Hispanjen
Heb ik altijd geeerd

In Godes vrees te leven
Heb ik altijd betracht
Daarom ben ik verdreven
Om land om luid' gebracht
Maar God zal mij regeren
Als een goed instrument
Dat ik zal wederkeren
In mijnen regiment

Lijdt u mijn onderzaten
Die oprecht zijn van aard
God zal u niet verlaten
Al zijt gij nu bezwaard
Die vroom begeert te leven
Bidt God nacht ende dag
Dat hij mij kracht wil geven
Dat ik u helpen mag

Lijf en goed al te samen
Heb ik u niet verschoond
Mijn broeders hoog van namen
Hebben 't u ook vertoond
Graaf Adolf is gebleven
In Friesland in den slag
Zijn ziel in 't eeuwig leven
Verwacht den jongsten dag

Edel en hoog geboren
Van keizerlijken stam
Een vorst des rijks verkoren
Als een vroom Christenman
Voor Godes woord geprezen
Heb ik vrij onversaagd
Als een held zonder vrezen
Mijn edel bloed gewaagd

Mijn schild ende betrouwen
Zijt gij o God mijn Heer
Op u zo wil ik bouwen
Verlaat mij nimmermeer
Dat ik doch vroom mag blijven
Uw dienaar t'aller stond
Die tirannie verdrijven
Die mij mijn hert doorwondt

Van al die mij bezwaren
En mijn vervolgers zijn
Mijn God wilt doch bewaren
Den trouwen dienaar dijn
Dat zal mij niet verrassen
In haren bozen moed
Haar handen niet en wassen
In mijn onschuldig bloed

Als David moeste vluchten
Voor Saul den tiran
Zo heb ik moeten zuchten
Met menig edelman
Maar God heeft hem verheven
Verlost uit alder nood
Een koninkrijk gegeven
In Israel zeer groot

Na 't zuur zal ik ontvangen
Van God mijn Heer dat zoet
Daar na zo doet verlangen
Mijn vorstelijk gemoed:
Dat is dat ik mag sterven
Met eren in dat veld
Een eeuwig rijk verwerven
Als een getrouwe held

Niet doet mij meer erbarmen
In mijnen wederspoed
Dan dat men ziet verarmen
Des Konings landen goed
Dat u de Spanjaards krenken
O edel Neerland zoet
Als ik daar aan gedenke
Mijn edel hert dat bloedt

Als een Prins opgezeten
Met mijner heires kracht
Van den tiran vermeten
Heb ik den slag verwacht
Die bij Maastricht begraven
Bevreesde mijn geweld
Mijn ruiters zag men draven
Zeer moedig door dat veld

Zo het den wille des Heren
Op die tijd had geweest
Had ik geern willen keren
Van u dit zwaar tempeest
Maar de Heer van hier boven
Die alle ding regeert
Die men altijd moet loven
En heeft het niet begeerd

Zeer prinselijk was gedreven
Mijn prinselijk gemoed
Standvastig is gebleven
Mijn hert in tegenspoed
Den Heer heb ik gebeden
Van mijnes herten grond
Dat hij mijn zaak wil reden
Mijn onschuld doen bekend

Oorlof mijn arme schapen
Die zijt in groten nood
Uw herder zal niet slapen
Al zijt gij nu verstrooid!
Tot God wilt u begeven
Zijn heilzaam woord neemt aan
Als vrome Christen leven
't Zal hier naast zijn gedaan

Voor God wil ik belijden
En zijner groter macht
Dat ik tot genen tijden
Den Koning heb veracht
Dat dat ik God den Here
Der hoogster Majesteit
Heb moeten obedieren
In der gerechtigheid

HUP HOLLAND!
ORANJE BOVEN!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

pinecone
Nov. 16, 2006, 06:16 PM
Coreene, I don't know what you said, but I'm sure it offended sm anyhow, LOL!


And read eurodressage, both links I posted -- both reports from 2005 and 2006 -- indicate a disappointing lack of real discussion.


sm, you apparently missed the parts of this thread where it was made clear that eurodressage is hardly considered an unbiased source of spin-free reporting.

These are respectable people (for the most part, although it sounds like a few people didn't behave this way) attending the GDF. If by "lack of real discussion" you mean it didn't play out like an episode of a trashy afternoon talk show, then I could see how you would be disappointed.

Coreene
Nov. 16, 2006, 06:18 PM
The Dutch National Anthem. :lol:

sm
Nov. 16, 2006, 07:17 PM
Actually you'd be wrong again Pinecone, I'm finding the Dutch National Anthem very approporate: "Coreene, I don't know what you said, but I'm sure it offended sm anyhow, LOL!"

Sure, I can see why you'd think to quote someone (as eurodressage writers quoted) is really out of line. To report facts (as eurodressage writers reported) is even worse: "sm, you apparently missed the parts of this thread where it was made clear that eurodressage is hardly considered an unbiased source of spin-free reporting."

Magazines get sued for quoting things wrong, don't they? Or did you "forget" that?

Coreene
Nov. 16, 2006, 07:27 PM
SM, if you are so totally determined to find out who is "behind" the GDF, why not email them yourself an ask? That way you can post Joep's name her all by yourself.

sm
Nov. 16, 2006, 07:31 PM
I did, my dear. They must be busy with bigger priorities. Maybe when things slow down, or maybe there is a language problem with translating my english. Who knows?

Coreene
Nov. 16, 2006, 07:39 PM
Well, since they all speak/read/write English fluently, maybe they just saw the question and thought that you were a pot-stirrer who had some anti-Dutch/Tainted Logo/Bad Statue conspiracy theory running through your mind and decided it would be a waste of their time.

sm
Nov. 16, 2006, 07:48 PM
Maybe they thought I was a freelance writer for a dressage magazine. Many writers would be contacting them this time of year. The conspiracy theory, again is not from me. Just read through the thread here if you want facts.

But, this stuff (staff and mgt) should be easily available to the general public... even if it's non-information, any general email reply would make sense. We've gone over that ground before though, on easy access to information!

Thank you for asking anyway. Not very professional of them, any standard "blah blah" response would have been more professional. Ever ask a politican a question and you get an entirely different answer, as if they never heard the question? So, that's why I originally nicely suggested they are too busy with the forum to give any standard "blah blah" response.

Either way, not very high marks on their public relations to the general public.

pinecone
Nov. 16, 2006, 10:45 PM
Magazines get sued for quoting things wrong, don't they? Or did you "forget" that?

Magazines OCCASIONALLY get sued SUCCESSFULLY for quoting things which are SLANDEROUS (or is it LIBELOUS).

Editorializing (in lieu of reporting), adding one's own spin, and errors of omission are not the same thing as "quoting things wrong", and are hardly lawsuit worthy. You have an overly simplistic view of the world. Why is it that you are so willing to accept eurodressage's word as the gospel, but you don't do the same for eurobreederstour's report? Is it because eurodressage's report fits more into your vision of things, and shares your same biases, and uses a spin you either a) approve of or b) do not recognize?

You really are trying to live up to your unflattering description in post 262, aren't you. Poor dear.


Well, since they all speak/read/write English fluently, maybe they just saw the question and thought that you were a pot-stirrer who had some anti-Dutch/Tainted Logo/Bad Statue conspiracy theory running through your mind and decided it would be a waste of their time.

LOL Coreene!

Ellie K
Nov. 16, 2006, 11:36 PM
But, this stuff (staff and mgt) should be easily available to the general publicWhy don't you just click on the link in the "Academy Intro" menu that says "Staff?": "THE ACADEMY STAFF includes about 20 members. The riders have produced about 20 horses from zero level to Grand Prix in the past years. In the office of the Academy, educational projects of world fame, such as the Global Dressage Forum, are organised." And then it tells you all about them and who assists Drs. Bartels in the organisation of the GDF. Visit: http://www.academybartels.com/2004/index_uk.html (http://www.academybartels.com/2004/index_uk.html)
Wouldn't that be easier? :confused:

And then once you are there on the Academy site, if you want further info on its most well-known event, the Global Dressage Forum, you can just click on a direct link to the GDF’s own site, or feel free to visit it directly at http://globaldressageforum.com and read about the GDF technical programme and the committee which now develops that programme. Just like you can read (in Dutch) about their other major event, Horse-Event, at http://www.horse-event.nl. Big events conducted by multifaceted and diverse companies often get special dedicated sites of their own, with links between the two…get it? Pretty simple, really.

Also please don't insult the general public by implying you are it.

lmao @ "post 262." Good one, pinecone.
I was wondering about that curious habit...someone is seemingly oblivious to the fact that everyone else uses the handy quote feature the COTH so nicely provides.

Sabine
Nov. 17, 2006, 12:21 AM
who is condemming who here?

It is so funny, you cannot respond intelligently so you try personal attacks. And proceed to have a meltdown -- too funny!

And if it's a CLINIC then don't present it as a Global DISCUSSION Forum -- make up your minds. And read eurodressage, both links I posted -- both reports from 2005 and 2006 -- indicate a disappointing lack of real discussion.

Once again from Eurodressage, because you seem to be missing the point yet again and insisting otherwise, " The absence of the top German dressage riders and trainers at the 2006 Global Dressage Forum was very striking and a great pity... "

So glad I linked a couple of times throughout this thread to eurodressage's reports on 2005 and 2006...


and what a stuckup 'Sour Muffin' are you? this is not name calling - you have earned this name over the last 5 pages...!
The British Dressage Society puts on this event every year- it is high class and they way you comment makes you appear like a complete 'know-nothing' which you seemed to have proven in your navigation skills on the internet but moreover in your rude and exaggerated responses. Siegi is right- it is a waste of everyone's time- since all of us seem to have little- as we are either professional trainers or otherwise professionally engaged- while you seem to have all day posting and adding to fiction.
Eurodressage is a great website with mostly correct information- however their 'editorials' are as tainted as Anky&SJef in your eyes or anyone else- it is just an OPINION of someone....frankly- I prefer opinions of active riders and competitors anyday- over those of armchair Marketing Experts or Internet Journalists, that haven't hit the back of a real horse in a lOOOONg time....LOL!

Carry on admiring your trainer riding your horse- and- get the idea of me having a melt-down out of your head...I don't have meltdowns- dear- I am way tooo busy for that...
Carry on and enjoy....

canyonoak
Nov. 17, 2006, 11:09 AM
<<They must be busy with bigger priorities. Maybe when things slow down, or maybe there is a language problem with translating my english. Who knows? ))






Perhaps Mr. Bartels is currently occupied with his wife's recovery from her serious fall and rresulting broken neck from a week or so ago.

Horsedances
Nov. 17, 2006, 11:49 AM
I have read three extensive write-ups form the GDF, and received tons of eye-withness reports. However (as usually) it reads if they all have been to another forum.

Is there (very please) a journalist in the world who is able to publish an unbiased report (CanyonOak ?) of the GDF, or do we have to smuggle in a hidden camera next year.:yes:

Theo

mmt
Nov. 17, 2006, 03:41 PM
I am voting hidden camera.

This is becoming the equivalent of a geo-political factions completely vested to their perspective. Little in life is black and white.

I vote for a campaign against bad riders and the "r" word being old, boring news given that I think bad riders regardless of what riding system they think they are in do more damage to the horses than certain trainers that get bashed all the time.

I am not a fan of rolkur since I think the ideals of the training scale can be accomplished without it as an extreme. I also have no idea whether Sjef had enough "feel" to pull it off, but at least when I see Anky ride, she keeps the engine (hind legs) going behind and through the back to a degree that she gets away with much more in front than most riders would because of her "feel."

sm
Nov. 18, 2006, 09:46 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Canyonoak, "Perhaps Mr. Bartels is currently occupied with his wife's recovery from her serious fall and rresulting broken neck from a week or so ago."

I'll try again with GDF directly and not try to contact him, probably now sometime after the holidays. Meanwhile, best wishes and jingles to his family.


Edited to add: I'm not interested in researching another company, Academy Bartels. That info is clear, beautifully written, and I visited that weeks and weeks ago. Mentioning here just so you know (hoping you know) I did read your posts regarding academybartels.com. I'm sure he is a remarkable man and continued success to him. My focus is the entity GDF -- funny it should be, this is a GDF thread.

This, written in 2004 for Academy Bartels, is supposed to be an answer for GDF 2006? On http://www.academybartels.com/2004/index_uk.html, "The Horse Academy Foundation is now supported by the European Union Funds, such as Leaderplus and the SRE EU Fund. "

Personal attacks (which is really amusing), temper tantrams and meltdowns, then followed up by a superior attitude to be expected: ROTFLMAO

Ellie K
Nov. 18, 2006, 01:01 PM
nice try playing the victim but once again you failed to read for comprehension. What part of the phrase "the Horse Academy Foundation" NOT BEING THE SAME AS the phrase "Academy Bartels" do you not understand? It's not confusing to anyone else. Nor is it a secret. It's common knowledge that the Bartels have initiated and are involved in many things. Everyone knows that. Par for the course when you've earned such a reputation. The Horse Academy Foundation is a foundation that conducts research projects. And what they choose to research is up to their board, a board which does NOT run Academy Bartels or any of its activities. You don't have to read the findings or give them any credence if you don't feel what they do is credible. Again, a separate entity from Academy Bartels. As is self-evident from its name. Duh.

Further to your obvious delusions that there is some kind of rollkur 'special interest group' there is no such group. There are just People Actually Involved in International Sport, which makes them stakeholders in it. You are not one of those people. And they generally do not share your opinion, with few exceptions. And whilst they do listen to reasoned, rational criticisms, even from non-stakeholders in international dressage (as I know from my own experiences corresponding on and discussing my own criticisms with the various powers that be on countless issues over the years), they certainly aren't going to listen to your variety of irrational, inane bullshit, as they've already heard enough. And that's why no one is really listening anymore, since the "anti" crowd has essentially lost all credibility with this sort of behaviour. Shame if a really great opportunity to have some ongoing critical dialogues within the FEI about the general direction of equestrianism (all disciplines) is lost because of this sort of ridiculous nonsense.

And the sponsors of each year's GDF are published. On. The. Website. Just like the tripartite programme committee is published, and was when it was first formed, one rep from each of the Forum's constituencies - - I'll give you a hint - - riders, trainers, judges!! Take a guess!! Of course Kyra Kirklund was added for 2006 so that makes 4 plus Drs. Bartels who obviously runs the whole thing, both organisational and technical. All obvious, well established, published, non secret, common knowledge. How do I know that? I read the published information. Why won't you?


Edited to add: I'm not interested in researching another company, Academy Bartels…My focus is the entity GDF -- funny it should be, this is a GDF thread. apparently you still fail to comprehend that the GDF is not a company, it's an event. Academy Bartels IS the company, dumbshit. In other news, 2+2=4.

And once again the hypocrisy. There are no temper tantrums or meltdowns, idiot. Just one ignoramus with a pre-formed agenda that keeps crashing and burning but obviously suffers from some sort of delusions of self-importance and authority. You have shown your ignorance over and over again. You are being ridiculed because you earned it by making false statements in a public forum that you can't back up, and refusing to respond to questions as to why you didn't simply read the published information instead of making false claims. Your only tactics (and it is entirely transparent and quite pathetic) are to play the victim, to parrot things back and try to project your own bullshit onto others because apparently you can't formulate your own thoughts or any defense as to why you refused to read the information. Your claims have been repeatedly shown to be unsubstantiated yet you refuse to retract your statements or edit your posts to remove the material. Normally forums have rules against this due to the potential legal ramifications; apparently the COTH does not.

Somantu
Nov. 18, 2006, 01:56 PM
Just one ignoramus with a pre-formed agenda that keeps crashing and burning but obviously suffers from some sort of delusions of self-importance and authority.

Academy Bartels IS the company, dumbshit.
Wow. This is pretty low.

Ellie K
Nov. 18, 2006, 02:06 PM
a natural consequence of maligning someone's professional reputation in a public forum with no basis in fact, and refusing to retract/edit (showing intent rather than simple negligence).

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 18, 2006, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Just one ignoramus with a pre-formed agenda that keeps crashing and burning but obviously suffers from some sort of delusions of self-importance and authority.

Quote:
Academy Bartels IS the company, dumbshit.

Wow. This is pretty low.

I agree, Somantu. Can we get back to discussion without the name calling? It's a bit of a turn-off. (And I hope people who write such nasty things get banned, no matter what "side" they're on.) It sure doesn't help people see each other's viewpoints...most likely does exactly the opposite!

Ellie K
Nov. 18, 2006, 02:20 PM
a natural consequence of maligning someone's professional reputation in a public forum with no basis in fact, and refusing to retract/edit (showing intent rather than simple negligence).
like I said, when you publish false statements that disparage a person's reputation, you can expect to be subjected to whatever comes your way (ridicule, insults, legal action, etc.), because you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed. So you get what you get.

I don't normally insult anyone, but sm crossed the line a long time ago, and has refused to correct the false statements which imply impropriety about one of the most noteworthy figures in all equestrianism (any discipline). Someone's status, obviously, does not make them immune to criticism. But statements have to be factual; if you can't back up what you say, you can't say it on most BBs. The statements sm repeatedly makes are FALSE and have been demonstrated so. If she would simply stop continuing to state falsehoods and inappropriate insinuations over and over again, she would not continue to be insulted. Ideally, she would also retract her false statements, and edit her posts accordingly.

btw, I'm not on any "side". I just have a problem with potentially defamatory (by virtue of their being false and potentially damaging to a person's reputation) BB posts. and your point is taken and I will gladly refrain from any future 'name calling', per se. But by the same token, sm should probably be accountable to retract/edit her false allegations, and refrain from continuing to make them.

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 18, 2006, 02:40 PM
like I said, when you publish false statements that disparage a person's reputation, you can expected to be subjected to whatever comes your way (ridicule, insults, legal action, etc.), because you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed. So you get what you get.

I don't normally insult anyone...and your point is taken and I will gladly refrain from any future 'name calling', per se. But by the same token, sm should probably be accountable to retract/edit her false allegations, and refrain from continuing to make them.

I can understand your point, but when it happens, we all need to show restraint or answer with humor. (I have to remember that myself because I have certainly "slipped" into this direction more times than I want to remember because someone made me "mad!")

And now, back to our reguarly scheduled program.... :-)

eqipoize
Nov. 18, 2006, 03:02 PM
Ellie - sorry there is never any excuse for rude unacceptable behavior. Name calling falls under that catagory. If you can't manage to talk without insults, maybe you need to take a break, and not rationalize your actions with a justification that she 'asked for it'. Sorry you think this is acceptable behavior, it says a lot about who you are, and how you conduct yourself, and even more, it talks about your personal ethics. And you say the Anti Hyperflexion crowd has lost credibility?????

cinder88
Nov. 18, 2006, 03:48 PM
Sorry to interrupt the mud-slinging.

I read the articles at EuroDressage and they note, about the German team not being there...."

""The Dutch rider and trainer were prepared to publicly put their neck on the line by showing their training methods at the forum and, regrettably, the detractors were not there to defend their opinion."

And yet, from another article about the same clinic, Mr Janssen says this...

""“I don’t talk to selective hearers,” Janssen said.""

So, taking that into account, perhaps the Germans thought it was a waste of their time, as they obviously weren't going to get any answers?

And...Sticking their necks out by showing thei training methods at a public forum? I'm sure that most of the in-the-know people have already seen lots of this trainng technique at shows, etc.

And, with Mr. Janssen not talking to "“selective hearers,” IE: Anyone who doesn't agree with him....Then, really...What was the big risk?

Ask a question he doesn't like and he just won't answer. Problem solved.

Dalfan
Nov. 18, 2006, 04:04 PM
since the "anti" crowd has essentially lost all credibility

Hardly. Everyday more people are made aware of this "training" method. That's a good thing, especially for the horses,imho.


statements sm repeatedly makes are FALSE and have been demonstrated so.

What statements are you referring to, and how have they been demonstrated to be false? Because AvG says so? Obviously, more research needs to be done to determine the harm. And when the powers that be say "only" experienced trainers should engage in "hyperflexion", to me there's a problem. Nothing "classical" or "right" about the training,imho.

A wild question on my part. Are you training/riding using the AvG training methods?


But statements have to be factual; if you can't back up what you say, you can't say it on most BBs

You must be kidding, right?

And your rude language is, shall we say, less than classy. No excuse.

And Cinder makes a good point about "selective questions" that Sjef won't answer.

Indi41
Nov. 18, 2006, 04:34 PM
The 'question' that wouldn't be answered was basically just an insult question.

In the same situation I wouldn't have answered it either. It was designed to be inflamatory and shouldn't have been given the dignaty of an answer.

Whether you agree with S and A or not - they have put themselves up to be open to questions. This was very apparent at the BD Convention in Britain when they insisted on questions from the audience every 10 minutes or so.

They answered every sensible question with a sensible answer. Whether you agree with the answer is another thing but they did answer questions and wanted to.

siegi b.
Nov. 18, 2006, 05:27 PM
... and, you can talk to anybody who attended this forum and they will tell you that the lady from the German magazine was just WAY out of line with the way she phrased her question (sort of like SM - with her mind already made up and just being very bullish about it). I wouldn't blame anybody for not wanting to get into that game because there is nothing good to be gained from it.

And Ellie, as I said before, you are casting pearls before swine! These folks will never listen to facts because they have their own agenda - one of hate and ignorance. In the end, the only way to deal with these people is to totally ignore them and then watch them fizzle out in all their self-righteousness and stupidity.

Groetjes,
Siegi

Dalfan
Nov. 18, 2006, 06:13 PM
They answered every sensible question with a sensible answer

Sensible to who? A&S? The point, exactly. Only questions they like.



one of hate and ignorance

Really? Why throw out such hyperbole?? Is it really necessary? I can only base my experience with what I have personally seen (blown minds and unridable horses with "trainers" trying to emulate S&A's "training". Classical and compassionate training DOES NOT result in a ruined horse) I just think it's plain ugly and I think harmful to the horse (both mentally and physically, although I have no proof to back up my belief, but neither do A&J). And I have seen video of AvG and a ringful of AvG wannabes doing hyperflexion for more than 2-3 minutes.

My question; How can ANY good, descent, classical, right training method NOT be for everyone to follow. Why only the "experts" should train like this?

canyonoak
Nov. 18, 2006, 06:19 PM
Ellie K does not need me or anyone else to defend her. Nevertheless, here's some food for thought:

once again, despite the best efforts of some people, yet another thread is being turned into some kind of vendetta.

Please--everyone of good sense--please--just STOP responding to the stupid posts (you know which ones they are).

There is no point in responding to Big Lie accusations--that is the point of a Big Lie.

Those of you who do not like the training techniques of Anky and Sjef--fine.

Those of you who are interested in the techniques- fine.

And to sm in particular--you say you want to do research into..whatever it is about the Bartels and their events that interests you--and you manage to make it all the way to the GDF website, using google and whatever else...and yet, you had NO IDEA that Joep Bartels' wife, Tineke, had a very serious accident?

Even though there was a thread on exactly this accident on this BB and others? and any google seach using the word 'bartels' comes up with news of this accident?

mmm.

(I am now thinking thoughts full of humor and humility).

Indi41
Nov. 18, 2006, 06:57 PM
Thank you CanonOak - very logical and sensible post!! We should all take heed.

Dalfan - when questions are asked with a view to getting a real answer then they are sensible. When questions are asked purely to make a point or worse score points, then they are not sensible.

Erin
Nov. 18, 2006, 09:02 PM
Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, be polite.

If you cannot disagree like adults -- without the inappropriate language, insults, and name calling -- the thread will be closed and the more egregious violators will join Ellie K in a three-day time out to think about what it means to disagree like adults.

eqipoize
Nov. 18, 2006, 09:20 PM
I just want to go on record - I did NOT report anything on this thread! I will NOT be accused of getting someone put into time out! I regret that people get so desperate to win their point that they sink to this sort of stuff, but I understand it is passion and maybe defensiveness. And I sure don't need to run to administrator and tattle! (heck Erin has enough to deal with!) The timing of this just looked really suspicious, and I wanted to clarify before people blamed me.

Erin
Nov. 18, 2006, 11:47 PM
Um, equipoize, we ASK people to report posts that are out of line -- and fortunately several people here did, because although I'm sure it will come as a shock to all of you who have your undies in a bundle over this topic, I don't really give two hoots about anyone's thoughts on the 2006 GDF and wouldn't normally be reading this thread. ;)

It's not tattling; it's being a constructive member of the community and respecting the rules.

eqipoize
Nov. 19, 2006, 01:00 AM
OK, I just recall someone got a 2 week suspension because you said you were tired of their endless reports of foul play. And I was once accused of getting someone banned, and I really didn't do it. I guess I am just a little sensitive.

I agree, this discussion lost a lot of civility. Which is a pity, it is always interesting to learn how other people think about these topics. Anyway, you have a tough and thankless job, and I appreciate your policing of these discussions. We will try to play nice.

fiona
Nov. 19, 2006, 03:51 AM
, I don't really give two hoots about anyone's thoughts on the 2006 GDF and wouldn't normally be reading this thread. ;)

For the record, I'm shocked and appalled!

Moll
Nov. 19, 2006, 03:54 AM
I didn't actually have time to wade through all this but hey, why shouldn't the Dutch defend their methods at a Dutch seminar? It would be much stranger if they didn't.

I don't like the statue either, but hey, it's realistic (take away the nosebands and that would be what you get) :)

fiona
Nov. 19, 2006, 05:50 AM
I don't like the statue either, but hey, it's realistic (take away the nosebands and that would be what you get)

what does that mean?

Moll
Nov. 19, 2006, 07:01 AM
Sorry, I was unclear: this statue:

http://www.globaldressageforum.com/images/topimg_logo.gif

I think it's a very realistic representation of rollkur in action, except that the real horses have nosebands/cavessons so their mouths are closed. :winkgrin:

Rusty Stirrup
Nov. 19, 2006, 07:10 AM
The next demonstration was by the sport psychologist "Dr. Rico Schuijers", and this was also very interesting. He gave an excellent lecture discussing the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems within the body, and showed how stress can elevate the heart rate, breathing, and disrupt the digestive system. This of course leading to a loss of concentration and disruption of being able to perform in an ideal state. He talked about breathing exercises and the redirection of what the rider is focusing on to bring them into a better state of mind.

Methinks that next time he should do a study on the stress reaction to bb members.

sm
Nov. 21, 2006, 03:25 PM
REPLY TO CANYONOAK ON 294

"And to sm in particular--you say you want to do research into..whatever it is about the Bartels and their events that interests you--and you manage to make it all the way to the GDF website, using google and whatever else...and yet, you had NO IDEA that Joep Bartels' wife, Tineke, had a very serious accident?"

Yes I did. You can see the thread and where I sent jingles, the date of my jingles is way before this. Thread called, "Tineke Bartels hurt: fell off horse ," Page 2, #31 on Nov 9th.

What I didn't get is why she would be the only one to be able to respond to an email sent to GDF, the names listed are Mrs. Esther Tacken / Mrs. Annet Broeckx under contact info@globaldressageforum.com at http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/

sm
Nov. 21, 2006, 03:32 PM
ELLIE K, TO YOUR COMMENTS ON 282:

1) EK writes: "What part of the phrase "the Horse Academy Foundation" NOT BEING THE SAME AS the phrase "Academy Bartels" do you not understand? nice try playing the victim but once again you failed to read for comprehension. What part of the phrase "the Horse Academy Foundation" NOT BEING THE SAME AS the phrase "Academy Bartels" do you not understand?"

sm: Once again, They (Horse Academy Foundation, "Academy Bartels") are involved with education, so is the rest of the planet. I was looking for STAFF and MGT on GDF, not Horse Academy Foundation, "Academy Bartels".

This is hardly specific info, not what I am looking for, from the Bartel site: "The Global Dressage Forum is the most important dressage seminar in the world. It's goal is to establish an universal dressage language by analyzing the techniques of worlds best dressage trainers and riders. Every year over 300 experts from over 30 countries come to the Netherlands to attend this 'technical highlight of the year'. Riders and trainers who have given lectures, clinics and practical demonstrations during the Global Dressage Forum in recent years are: Anky van Grunsven, Ulla Salzgeber, Johann Hinnemann, Kyra Kyrklund, Sjef Janssen, J&#252;rgen Koschel, RudolfZeilinger, Robert Dover, Erst Hoyos, Lisa Wilcox, Mari&#235;tte Withages, Richard Davidson, David Hunt, Arthur Kottas and Richard Weis. More information on the Global Dressage Forum on http://www.globaldressageforum.com "




2) EK writes: "Further to your obvious delusions that there is some kind of rollkur 'special interest group' there is no such group. There are just People Actually Involved in International Sport, which makes them stakeholders in it."

sm: Ellie K, you know that Special Interest Group thought was also brought up on UDBB, becasue you were on that thread. Yet, you didn't challenge it there. Why? 3Sisters on UDBB wrote, "The entire global forum smacks of special interest. It is certainly possible to get excellent information at such a forum, but lining up professionals to back your agenda and refusing to discuss training methods with those that strongly disagree causes the forum to lose credibility. I would strongly disagree that a large forum such as this is the place to really get some work done. This type of forum is more spectator oriented and should keep to a schedule which doesn't afford detailed, intense discussion that might get very ugly." http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93014&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Read the next response there, where that thought is backed up. Ellie, you didn't question the point there, after that you responded to something else. So you posted both before and after that remark on Special Interest, and it's fine with you there on UDBB?

Based on what do you make your opinion it is not special interest? Why wouldn't the Dutch feel they need to support AvG's training methods? There is an event called Global Dressage Forum with the logo rollkur-esque? Same as holding a Global Civil Rights Forum with a swastika as a logo.

Look, Coca-Cola spends billions of dollars on campaigns to promote coke. The difference is they are very up front and proud of it. They don't refuse discussions or get hostile or promote a discussion that reasonates of Good Will and then not provide one. Actually, the staff at GDF didn't provide discussion twice: they got the benefit of good will Public Relations but didn't actually, didn't in reality, provide discussion in either in 2005 or 2006.




3) EK writes: "And the sponsors of each year's GDF are published. On. The. Website. "

sm: Then provide the link out of common courtesy. Cut and paste the text here. Scan and post the programme. Like any decent and well-meaning person would do.




4) EK writes: "apparently you still fail to comprehend that the GDF is not a company, it's an event."

sm: No, you assigned that to me, even after pulling and highlighting the quote on post 282 where I called it an entity.





ELLIE K ON 286

EK writes: "like I said, when you publish false statements that disparage a person's reputation, you can expect to be subjected to whatever comes your way (ridicule, insults, legal action, etc.), because you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed. So you get what you get."

sm: Wrong again, "you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed," and you were there to know better. Re-read Item 2 above. And 3Sisters is fine Ellie, the UDBB moderator was good with it, as it should be.

Actually, I am asking for more info. I am stating what's unclear, what's odd, so there are extremely specific points to provide info on. WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? THIS IS EDUCATION, RIGHT?? SO EDUCATE !! RESPOND INTELLIGENTLY AND EDUCATE. Most people out of courtesy would cut and paste the info onto this thread.

So Ellie K, be a dear if you can and re-read item 3. Cut and paste the staff and mgt of GDF specifically, no other. Why shouldn't anyone not assume add'l members would be staffed for GDF only? Most events staff up and are specifically funded for a particular and very specific venue -- why are you so sure GDF was not?

siegi b.
Nov. 21, 2006, 07:44 PM
sm - for you to quote 3Sisters as a credible source is laughable! 3Sisters is either a close relative or otherwise "engaged" with Mark, the owner of TOB, and that's why she can spout all the one-sided nonsense she does. The reason nobody argues with her on UDDB is because Mark would ban them in a heartbeat - I know, it happened to me.

So you really need to come up with other sources to substantiate your questionable retorts. The way it looks right now is simply argumentative on your part with no facts to back anything up.

I can't believe you and Moll getting all hung up on the artistic horse figure logo - you really have never seen pictures of horses/stallions at liberty in such poses? Maybe that would be a new focus for you - find those pictures and draw little RK symbols on them. That's how ridiculous your arguments are starting to appear....

Quod licet jovi, non licet bovi.

eqipoize
Nov. 21, 2006, 09:28 PM
3Sisters is either a close relative or otherwise "engaged" with Mark, the owner of TOB, and that's why she can spout all the one-sided nonsense she does. The reason nobody argues with her on UDDB is because Mark would ban them in a heartbeat - I know, it happened to me.


No actually it is nasty inuendo such as this, plus your arrogant attitude that has gotten you banned from UDBB :no: While 3S is very adamant, and very impassioned, she does NOT insult people, and she does NOT imply that they sleep with the moderators. It amazes me how you folks talk to one another - the arrogance, name calling, are incredible. I find it very instructive for me to see how the other half lives! :sadsmile:

Regarding the GDF's choice of a statue, it simply says a LOT about what the people in charge consider attractive - don't you think? And That says a lot about their opinion of what posture a horse should be ridden in. I know I have passed on buying many art works because they had flaws I could not live with - even though the ART work was very skilled, I didn't want to look at a rider looking down, or a jumper rider ducking to the side, or a horse over bent, or doing a disconnected extended trot. I CHOOSE not to deaden my senses to these sorts of wrong images. So, if the staff in charge CHOSE that statue, then they MUST like looking at it. I find it a little disquieting. That is personal taste. Read into it what you will. Oh, and you can insult me all you want, I always just consider the source. I am sure you will come up with some haughty remark. Knock yourself out.

pinecone
Nov. 21, 2006, 09:36 PM
sm - for you to quote 3Sisters as a credible source is laughable! 3Sisters is either a close relative or otherwise "engaged" with Mark, the owner of TOB, and that's why she can spout all the one-sided nonsense she does. The reason nobody argues with her on UDDB is because Mark would ban them in a heartbeat - I know, it happened to me.

So you really need to come up with other sources to substantiate your questionable retorts. The way it looks right now is simply argumentative on your part with no facts to back anything up.


I agree entirely with Siegi. 3Sisters is hardly a respectable credible source:lol: . But she is certainly well protected on TOB.

As I am sure sm is aware, Ellie has been apparently banned, for putting in writing what many of us were already thinking. It is somewhat childish to try to pick a fight with someone who can no longer respond.

I also take offense at the implication that anyone is in any way obligated to provide anyone else with information which is widely available to anyone willing to do their homework. Ellie had already addressed this - telling sm that if she had asked nicely, she might have gotten more cooperation. But sm you came barging into this topic with a chip on your shoulder, and you want to play the victim when nobody wants to help you? Ha.

Before I find myself banned as well, I should probably abandon this thread, as it is increasingly difficult not to lose my patience when faced with people like sm (or 3Sisters, for that matter.)

Adios;).

Dalfan
Nov. 21, 2006, 10:48 PM
3Sisters is either a close relative or otherwise "engaged" with Mark, the owner of TOB, and that's why she can spout all the one-sided nonsense she does. The reason nobody argues with her on UDDB is because Mark would ban them in a heartbeat - I know, it happened to me.

Totally, not true. Where do you get this? Look at some of the threads over there.

canyonoak
Nov. 21, 2006, 11:00 PM
so: does anyone know anything about HealthMath or BrainSmart...? these are related concepts, and apparently Rico Schuijers referred to them. They refer to websites/people who are trying to use neuropsychology and various other techniques to help athletes/the rest of the world's human beings perform better, achieve better, concentrate etc.

Sabine
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:40 AM
No actually it is nasty inuendo such as this, plus your arrogant attitude that has gotten you banned from UDBB :no: While 3S is very adamant, and very impassioned, she does NOT insult people, and she does NOT imply that they sleep with the moderators. It amazes me how you folks talk to one another - the arrogance, name calling, are incredible. I find it very instructive for me to see how the other half lives! :sadsmile:

Regarding the GDF's choice of a statue, it simply says a LOT about what the people in charge consider attractive - don't you think? And That says a lot about their opinion of what posture a horse should be ridden in. I know I have passed on buying many art works because they had flaws I could not live with - even though the ART work was very skilled, I didn't want to look at a rider looking down, or a jumper rider ducking to the side, or a horse over bent, or doing a disconnected extended trot. I CHOOSE not to deaden my senses to these sorts of wrong images. So, if the staff in charge CHOSE that statue, then they MUST like looking at it. I find it a little disquieting. That is personal taste. Read into it what you will. Oh, and you can insult me all you want, I always just consider the source. I am sure you will come up with some haughty remark. Knock yourself out.


just a simple question:

why are you Equipoize, sm, dalfan, tonya and others-compelled to post here??
why???
it seems that you are very happy at UDBB- you trumpet the partyline and follow the usual leaders, like 3S, Ms. Kreuz and Kasette- as the senior members - followed by the younger- more up and down MBM- and then the usual 'yes' sayers....why is it necessary to come over here? To get your negative energy out or just make people feel bad in general? We all know you are the masters at posting disguised attacks, aggravating twisting of facts- and have the time to endlessly analyze and spend time on posts that span a foot in length...and we all are pretty sure you rarely ride...maybe own horses and except for MBM who puts herself out there for critique- the rest is just blue smoke....

so please go back to your home town and make people happy there- and leave us to our own devices and let us enjoy Rollkur and the dutch and the GDF and all that stuff- because we really love it, our horses thrive on it and we actually ride everyday- at least most of us do...LOL!!!

Hasta Luego!

siegi b.
Nov. 22, 2006, 08:26 AM
Quote by Eqipoize - "I find it very instructive for me to see how the other half lives!"

As it should be, Eqipoize, as it should be! You see, this BB is quite democratic and doesn't punish folks for having opposing views. I know, that's a tough concept to follow coming from your autocratic BB background.

And since you find us so horrible, I'm with Sabine when she suggests you go back to your safe heaven where everybody says the same thing.

siegi b.
Nov. 22, 2006, 08:35 AM
P.S.: I meant to say "safe haven" not "heaven", because that's certainly not what it is.

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:19 AM
We all know you are the masters at posting disguised attacks, aggravating twisting of facts- and have the time to endlessly analyze and spend time on posts that span a foot in length...and we all are pretty sure you rarely ride...maybe own horses and except for MBM who puts herself out there for critique- the rest is just blue smoke....

Sounds like this might apply to you as well. I have pics in my webshots (like many people) but I don't recall seeing any pics of you riding. I might make an assumption of what I would see though. Of course a pic is just a moment in time, and the next frame the beast could be a giraffe or being roll-kured, who knows, really! So I get invited to leave by you by my comment that roll-kur is UGLY. It is, and IMHO, just another GADGET/SHORTCUT (sort of like drawreins) and so far removed from what classical dressage should be. I am NOT with the "whatever works" style of training.

It seems that most everyone has been banned(suspended) from the UDBB at one time or another. Gee, if I knew 3Sis had that kind of pull I might have lobbied her to get me re-instated.:winkgrin: Perhaps not though...I tend to prefer this board..posters don't seem to try to hide/complain behind the mods skirts as much over here.

Surely this board is a big enough tent for all? Those who ride roll-kur, those who don't, those who are somewhere in between. Discussions about this are good, makes people more aware of what they should want to see, without name-calling and foul language. That's where EllieK went wrong.

slc2
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:43 AM
intelligent discussion is good. what i read up above isn't an intelligent discussion.

the sculpture is a stylized artist's rendition. the paintings of the great glory days of the masters of classical dressage are also stylized, and also show the horses in the same posture as the sculpture.

Horsedances
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:53 AM
Some months ago I opened an account on TOB for one of the most noted riders (multiple Olympic competitor and winner of several Worldcup competitions).

She asked me to do this because she is a computer "dontknow" , but she wanted to answer some postings of 3-sisters, which she found ridiculous.

She was banned from TOB after posting 3 lines of text.

NoNoNoNoNo 3-sisters is not a credible source, she or he is 300% biased and a veryyyyyy wrong source of information.

Theo

Tonja
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:57 AM
Sabine wrote:

why are you Equipoize, sm, dalfan, tonya and others-compelled to post here??
why???

it seems that you are very happy at UDBB- you trumpet the partyline and follow the usual leaders, like 3S, Ms. Kreuz and Kasette- as the senior members - followed by the younger- more up and down MBM- and then the usual 'yes' sayers....why is it necessary to come over here? To get your negative energy out or just make people feel bad in general? We all know you are the masters at posting disguised attacks, aggravating twisting of facts- and have the time to endlessly analyze and spend time on posts that span a foot in length...and we all are pretty sure you rarely ride...maybe own horses and except for MBM who puts herself out there for critique- the rest is just blue smoke....

so please go back to your home town and make people happy there- and leave us to our own devices and let us enjoy Rollkur and the dutch and the GDF and all that stuff- because we really love it, our horses thrive on it and we actually ride everyday- at least most of us do...LOL!!!


This is a discussion forum that is open to dressage riders. I am a dressage rider. Obviously, you don’t know much about me and this thread isn’t about me so let’s either get back to the original discussion or let the topic die.

eqipoize wrote:

Regarding the GDF's choice of a statue, it simply says a LOT about what the people in charge consider attractive - don't you think?

I agree. Stylized or not, I think the GDF's choice of statues says a lot.

eqipoize
Nov. 22, 2006, 10:07 AM
You see, this BB is quite democratic and doesn't punish folks for having opposing views.

No, you just tell them to Go Home

[QUOTE][why are you Equipoize, sm, dalfan, tonya and others-compelled to post here??
why???
it seems that you are very happy at UDBB- you trumpet the partyline and follow the usual leaders, like 3S, Ms. Kreuz and Kasette- as the senior members - followed by the younger- more up and down MBM- and then the usual 'yes' sayers....why is it necessary to come over here? To get your negative energy out or just make people feel bad in general? We all know you are the masters at posting disguised attacks, aggravating twisting of facts- and have the time to endlessly analyze and spend time on posts that span a foot in length...and we all are pretty sure you rarely ride...maybe own horses and except for MBM who puts herself out there for critique- the rest is just blue smoke....

so please go back to your home town and make people happy there- and leave us to our own devices and let us enjoy Rollkur and the dutch and the GDF and all that stuff- because we really love it, our horses thrive on it and we actually ride everyday- at /QUOTE]

It seems you don't need to mods to remove those who don't agree with you, up until now, you have managed to drive away any opposition with nasty comments and tag team mean spiritedness. Now you are faced with someone who stays fairly calm in the face of all that, and you don't know what to do, except say "GO AWAY".

Why do I post here - 1- I consider it spiritual training - I am learning to maintain my calm in the face of ranting and insults. This is a very useful skill in riding horses as well. 2- I feel that any discussion that becomes too one sided needs balance. This is a well known bb, and there are many lurkers here, and I think they deserve to hear both sides of the story. And truthfully, I WELCOMED opposing opinions on TOB as well. Sadly, most of them were unable to stay calm and wound up violating BB rules. I find this interesting as well, about those who at very least are willing to turn a blind eye to rolkur/hyperflexion. I think there is a shallow base of knowledge and information to debate from, so it quickly degrades into defensiveness and then nastiness. 3- sadly, TOB often lacks any good debate because of the bannings. 4- I love a good debate, I take after my dad that way, I guess. He always would play devil's advocate just to get our ire up! I find that debating helps me clarify my own position, and in some cases, I have to modify it. 5- I guess Dalfan needs some company, I think she got banned as well. (sorry to see that,DF, I didn't agree with you politically, but you are entitled to your opinions.)

Now, generally I don't bother to answer insults, but I also confess, I LOVE being Right - so just for the record - I rode 6 horses yesterday, and ground worked 4 more. In the last 6 days, I have worked 41 horses, and I expect to ride 6 more today, and again, ground work a couple of the not yet broke horses. I may sit on a young QH for the first time today. I MIGHT find time to work on my freestyle. I will jump my sales horse in some gymnastics, as he needs better form, and we need to raise the fences. I will work on improving the changes in my husband's horse, and I will probably pony one of the youngsters out on the trail. Yes I DO RIDE - and in many varied forms, and I have competed through 4th level, and ridden all the movements of GP.

Just because I post long messages doesn't mean I sit around doing nothing else - I can type at 60 wpm and think at 120 wpm, sorry you have trouble keeping up. I don't twist facts, and I don't make personal attacks of any sort. Usually when people don't like a well stated position of opposition, they will resort to those defenses. Facts Can be spun, or presented selectively, but when I state facts, they are presented with my best understanding. Personal attacks - veiled or otherwise - are useless. they discourage debate, and I already stated, I am here for the discussion, not to beat the opposition down - or even to make them go away.

but I will go away now, as I have hungry horses, and a long work list - and 7 lessons to teach today - along with those 10 horses that need riding. But I am happily awake, caffined up, and ready to rip. But like MacArthur - I shall return!

slc2
Nov. 22, 2006, 10:34 AM
the majority of insults are flowing out from you, so i don't think your plan of using this board for spiritual training is very effective. in fact, i think such a statement is ludicrous.

eqipoize
Nov. 22, 2006, 10:59 AM
the majority of insults are flowing out from you, so i don't think your plan of using this board for spiritual training is very effective. in fact, i think such a statement is ludicrous.

PLEASE give an example of where I have insulted someone. Maybe I am typing so fast my unconscious is slipping in a word or two. I will have a talk with it. Spiritual training is a process - I have a LONG way to go. Same with dressage. The closest I have gotten to insulting anyone is seigi, and I really feel that person IS arrogant, maybe I could have stated it in a kinder manner, but I was only saying that the posts that get people banned are taking a very wrong tone - NOT what they say, but HOW they say it. Here and TOB. As I recall, the recent 2 week suspensions were because one person called another one a Ho (and I am sure they weren't talking about a garden tool) - fairly unacceptable for a public discussion, I think. THAT is an insult. I have not called anyone names, I have not questioned their right to have an opinion, I have not even said they are cruel to their horses. So, please enlighten me - I really Will take it under consideration. tia.

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:02 AM
Well, DALFAN might be suspended, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am. :cool: ;) :winkgrin:

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
Some months ago I opened an account on TOB for one of the most noted riders (multiple Olympic competitor and winner of several Worldcup competitions).

She asked me to do this because she is a computer "dontknow" , but she wanted to answer some postings of 3-sisters, which she found ridiculous.

She was banned from TOB after posting 3 lines of text.

NoNoNoNoNo 3-sisters is not a credible source, she or he is 300% biased and a veryyyyyy wrong source of information.

Can you please direct us to this post. I find it hard to believe the "facts" as you have stated it. I would like to see for myself. 3 lines of text?? Was it all cussing and name calling??

slc2
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:13 AM
"will take it under consideration"

perhaps you will, while you're doing your spiritual training.

sm
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:18 AM
Siegi B: I never asked anyone to agree with 3Sisters, you're missing the point again. SM POST 303, ELLIE K ON 286. EK writes: "like I said, when you publish false statements that disparage a person's reputation, you can expect to be subjected to whatever comes your way (ridicule, insults, legal action, etc.), because you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed. So you get what you get."

sm: Wrong again, "you are the person who has done something that on most BBs is not allowed," and you were there to know better. Re-read Item 2 above. And 3Sisters is fine Ellie, the UDBB moderator was good with it, as it should be.

_______________


So now, responses on those who don't like my questions, the list is growing:
eurodressage is not objective
ultimate dressage BB moderator is not objective
St George is not objective
sm is, well, it depends on which personal attack you prefer

_______________

Just try to answer the questions, Post 306, Item 2 and Item 3. And reread Post 296 pasted here:
Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, be polite. If you cannot disagree like adults -- without the inappropriate language, insults, and name calling -- the thread will be closed and the more egregious violators will join Ellie K in a three-day time out to think about what it means to disagree like adults.

_______________

If some don't like where I am coming from, yep, I'm trouble:

- I support FEI dressage, I have a GP horse, trained by my trainer from Training Level test 1 through to GP. And yes Sabine, I do ride the horse ever since Training Level, and no, I do not train FEI. Some would say you train a horse everytime you get on, I'm not so sure. My GP horse happily takes care of me, no evasions, always makes me look a whole lot better than I am.

- I offer breed awards, and in that regard I tell everyone: come on, join dressage. Compete FEI and my company will award you, everything is safe here for your horses to come and learn, everything is fine. If soring comes down the pike, am I to award that too? I don't think so.

- I read every friggin' issue of COTH magazine in all disciplines, so I don't consider myself entirely un-informed. Just not well informed enough on GDF. For stuff like this, there's the COTH Forum. What could be better than that..

- I have 20 years experience in international marketing, developing logos and promotional material included, and I need answers on GDF before things "add up." You who have a problem with this: build a bridge and get over with it.



_______________


So now I'll wait for Ellie K to explain and post. Maybe someone else can on Post 306, Item 2 and Item 3. I'm not god, I can't find GDF Mgt and Staff while Ellie insists it there. Simple cut and paste with link provided is all it takes...

I'm checking out for the day, for those who celebrate tomorrow, Happy Thanksgiving.

eqipoize
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:21 AM
Actually, Theo is so on MS's bad boy list, that if his computer id is spotted, the identity associated with it is kicked off. So, if you want to have Theo set up your account, have him do it using Your computer!

mp
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:34 AM
It seems you don't need to mods to remove those who don't agree with you, up until now, you have managed to drive away any opposition with nasty comments and tag team mean spiritedness. Now you are faced with someone who stays fairly calm in the face of all that, and you don't know what to do, except say "GO AWAY".

You're welcome to stay. Just please say something new. Or at least interesting. I am a long-time lurker/somewhat infrequent poster. Your desire that people like me hear "both sides of the story" is fine. But we've heard it already. And we've heard it again and again and again and again.

I found the original post very interesting, as it was a firsthand account of an event I will likely never be able to attend. It was an informational report that I took as it was presented -- what one person saw/heard from her perspective.

The rest of these long-winded dissections of the GDF logo, who is "behind" the GDF, who gets invited and the other minutae is good for nothing. Except, it would seem, to make people who are on a mission feel important.

sm
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:02 PM
I can see your point MP. Now that I don't have to keep responding to the same attacks, I did like canyonoaks effort on post 311 to change the subject:

so: does anyone know anything about HealthMath or BrainSmart...? these are related concepts, and apparently Rico Schuijers referred to them. They refer to websites/people who are trying to use neuropsychology and various other techniques to help athletes/the rest of the world's human beings perform better, achieve better, concentrate etc.

slpeders
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:11 PM
Sadly, I was right. I thought it might be too much to hope for that an actual discussion of the original topic was in process....guess I'll just keep ignoring this thread, but I'm glad I got to read it before it hit the tracks....

class
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:11 PM
Just try to answer the questions, Post 306, Item 2 and Item 3. And reread Post 296 pasted here:

okay, i will try.



Based on what do you make your opinion it is not special interest? Why wouldn't the Dutch feel they need to support AvG's training methods? There is an event called Global Dressage Forum with the logo rollkur-esque? Same as holding a Global Civil Rights Forum with a swastika as a logo.



A special interest is a person or political organisation established to influence governmental policy or legislators in a specific area of policy. In the UK, a group which specifically aims to influence public policy is known as a pressure group.

if you want to say it is special interest, than what is the policy they are trying to influence? are they trying to get rollkur allowed in warmup? it already is. are they trying to influence everyone to ride like them? i would say no. are they trying to influence the judges to make it more likely that they will win competitions? well, it seems like an awful lot of money to spend to "influence" something that is already happening. are they trying to influence the public to love rollkur? it will never happen. so what exactly is the policy that they are trying to change?

but first, read this:


The slogan special interest is ... never [used] to describe political allies. Use of that term, especially in the United States, implies that the "special" interest is not the "public" interest. Many scholars dislike the term special interest, since it carries this loaded, negative connotation. Among other things, it presumes that we know exactly what the general interest (or public interest) is.

read this part again:


Among other things, it presumes that we know exactly what the general interest (or public interest) is.

do you presume to know exactly what the public interest of (competitive!) dressage is? we all know what our own interest is. but that is not the question.



3) EK writes: "And the sponsors of each year's GDF are published. On. The. Website. "

sm: Then provide the link out of common courtesy. Cut and paste the text here. Scan and post the programme. Like any decent and well-meaning person would do.

sponsors: http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/sponsors.php

hint: i found this through google. type in 'global dressage forum sponsors' and it will be the first link that pops up.

program: http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/program.php

hint: i found this through google. type in 'global dressage forum program' and it will be the first link that pops up.


cut and paste text of program:

Concept program 2006:

Monday 30 October:
13.30 h. Opening
14.00 h. Clinic Hubertus Schmidt
15.30 h. Panel discussion
16.00 h. Coffee break
16.45 h. Lecture by Dr. Rico Schuijers
17.15 h. Questions and Answers
18.00 h. Dinner buffet
20.00 h. Clinic by Monty Roberts
21.30 h. Panel discussion
22.00 h. End

Tuesday 31 October:
09.30 h. Lecture and demonstration by Dr. Andrew McLean
10.45 h. Questions and Answers
11.00 h. Coffee break
11.30 h. Analysis of WEG Aachen by a panel with Mariette Withages
12.30 h. Lunch buffet
13.30 h. Lecture by Dr. René van Weeren and Sjef Janssen
14.30 h. Coffee break
15.00 h. Clinic by Sjef Janssen and Anky van Grunsven
16.00 h. Panel discussion
17.00 h. End
17.30 h. Dinner buffet

(also includes bios for each speaker after program)

siegi b.
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:34 PM
Class - you're trying to confuse sm with facts.... it's just not going to work. :-)

Great post!

sm
Nov. 22, 2006, 12:45 PM
thank you Class, once again I am looking for GDF Staff and MGT. That was supposed to be on the program according to Ellie K. And on a website. GDF Staff and MGT.

Special Interst should be obvious: There are many schools in dressage. Rollkur is taught by one school, for instance the German school, the Cadre Noir, Spanish School, etc, don't teach it. So the Global Dressage Forum logo, does that represent all dressage schools to you ?

____

A beautiful program on paper that wasn't fully realized. It's a pity one can see where the Program was allowed to get off track on Day Two around 11:00 regarding panel discussion on Brentina’s Grand Prix, from there the lack of discussion is worse:
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep6.html

class
Nov. 22, 2006, 01:24 PM
sorry, i was just answering the questions that you pointed out. i don't know who staffed it, but can you tell me again why you are wondering about who the staff is? let's say the staff is all of anky's very best friends. what does that mean? are you trying to prove that it is touted as a "dressage" conference when it is really a "rollkur" conference? i'm just trying to understand what you are so worried about or what your point is about the whole thing.

also, now you are the one who is not answering my questions. let's say you are right! they are a special interest group! now, what exactly is the policy that they are trying to change?

also, where have they said that they are trying to represent every single dressage school? do you find it fishy that they are not representing the cadre noir and no one from the SRS attended?

i am trying to understand the basis of your concerns. are you concerned that anky threw a special invite-only party and they didn't talk about what you think they should? or what? is your concern revolving around the fact that the forum says it is about education but it is not? do you feel it is deceiving? i'm not understand exactly what the problem is. please clarify what you are questioning/ranting against.

class
Nov. 22, 2006, 01:33 PM
maybe you are looking for this part of the program, or maybe this is what ellie was talking about:

(it's in adobe, at this link: http://www.globaldressageforum.com/pdf_doc/reader2006.pdf)



Introduction By David Hunt, President of the International Dressage Trainers Club Welcome at the sixth Global Dressage Forum, organised by Academy Bartels with the International Dressage Trainers Club. The year 2006 has been a fantastic dressage year, with unique highlights, especially the World Equestrian Games in Aachen. Over 500.000 spectators and over a billion tv viewers have proven the immense potential of our sport. It is now the responsibility of the FEI, including National Federations, but also trainers, riders, judges, horse owners, sponsors and officials, to promote the enormous potential of the sport and guide it towards an even brighter future. At the dressage trainer club we feel that an open discussion is essential for further development. The Global Dressage Forum is an ideal opportunity for such a discussion. We thank everybody who is making this possible, especially the Dutch National Federation for its support and the FEI for its cooperation. We thank all sponsors of the Global Dressage Forum: Eurocommerce, KNHS, MSP, London Outpost, Equine Elite, family Bechtolsheimer, Mrs Sonnenberg and Lambert Geerkens And we thank you all for being present and contributing. Enjoy the Global Dressage Forum, David Hunt


By Drs Joep Bartels, GDF programme committee In 2001 the first Global Dressage Forum was organised. A tradition of IDTC (International Dressage Trainers Club) seminars, initiated by the late Herman Duckeck, had come to an end and it was time to create a new debating platform for trainers, riders and judges. The IDTC and the Academy initiated the Global Dressage Forum aiming to contribute to the discussion among all groups in the dressage world. In the first five years the Global Dressage Forum had many highlights. Over those years the Forum developed into a platform for everyone who is interested in the development of dressage. Not only trainers, riders and judges were giving lectures and clinics, also scientists, representatives of federations, veterinarians and breeders. As organisers of this Global Forum we are proud on what was realised, but after five years we also feel that we have to change. As the dressage world was heavily involved in external discussions on training methods, there was not much internal discussion at the Global Forum on this matter. In the meantime the Academy got involved in a successful educational program for horse trainers, organised by the Dutch National Federation, called the ‘trainers platform’. Inspired by outsiders, from sport scientists to soccer coaches, discussions took place leading to an improved exchange of information. As it is often the case, the outsiders view was refreshing and turned out to be the trigger for most of the discussions among the horse trainers. One of the dressage trainers who has always let herself inspire by outsiders is Kyra Kyrklund. In 2005 Kyra’s clinic at the Global Forum was one of the highlights. We are very happy that she accepted our invitation to join the program committee of the Global Dressage Forum. The 2006 programme presents wide range of lectures, by zoologist Dr. Andrew McLean, horse whisperer Monty Roberts and sport psychologist Dr. Rico Schuijers. Kyra will be on several of the panels, which have been installed to evaluate and discuss the clinics of the 2006 GDF program. Also, representatives of the equestrian press will be invited to join the discussions. On behalf of the program committee I would like to welcome you all. We are looking forward to interesting lectures and clinics, exchange of information and constructive discussions. Joep Bartels

at the bottom of the program is this information:


Academy Bartels, Koestraat 9, NL-5095 BD Hooge Mierde, the Netherlands T: 0031 13 509 1666 F: 0031 13 509 2719 E: info@globaldressageforum.com

maybe academy bartels hosted/staffed the global dressage forum?

academy bartels website is: http://www.horses-academy.nl/2004/index_uk.html

the staff at academy bartels is:


THE ACADEMY STAFF includes about 20 members. The riders have produced about 20 horses from zero level to Grand Prix in the past years. In the office of the Academy, educational projects of world fame, such as the Global Dressage Forum, are organised.

THE ACADEMY STABLE:
TINEKE BARTELS participated in 1967 as a junior show jumping rider in the first international Indoor Brabant event in the 'Brabanthallen' in 's-Hertogenbosch. After her career as a jumping rider, she specialized in eventing. In 1974 she won the Dutch National Championship. In the beginning of the eighties Tineke decided to specialize in dressage. From 1984 to 1997 she was a member of the Dutch national team, participated in 4 Olympic games and won 2 silver team medals. Tineke won also 5 silver and bronze medals at World and European championships. Tineke participated in a record number of World Cup finals. Educated at the Academy for physical education in Tilburg, she also got her equestrian instructors degree at the O.R.U.N. in Ermelo, and she is 'master coach' of the Dutch Olympic Committee. Her "Big Pony book" is an equestrian bestseller in 5 languages, and her new book "Riding with Tineke Bartels" sold already 10.000 in Holland. Tineke was awarded a 'knight ship' by Her Majesty the Queen of Holland. It is a unique fact that she shares this honour with her husband Joep.

IMKE SCHELLEKENS-BARTELS is instructor at the Academy and the daughter of Tineke and Joep. She has had several international successes as a Young Rider: she won two individual bronze medals at the European Championships and won a gold team medal at the European championships in Helsinki. Imke moved to the Swedish national stud farm Flyinge where she was taught by the world famous trainer Kyra Kyrklund. Imke also got her equestrian degree at the Master class in Deurne. As a senior rider Imke got a sixth place with Olympic Barbria in the World Cup Final in Dortmund in 1999. Imke had many good results but when Lancet came in the Bartels stable, her career got very successful. In the beginning of 2004 she and Lancet rode their first Grand Prix together. In march the won at the international competition Indoor Brabant in the Netherlands. A few months later after another two international victories (Rotterdam and Hickstead) Imke became 11th at the Olympic Games in Athens 2004.

DANIËLLE KOENDERS is instructor and rider at the Academy, graduated as an ORUN instructor and competing at Prix St Georges level. She trains several horses for their owners and she takes care of the stallions and other competition horses at the Academy. During the training weeks she gives theory and practical lessons. Daniëlle also gives some private lessons at the Academy.

JORG VAN DEN AKKER is one of the stable managers and groom for the competition horses at the Academy. He graduated at NHB Deurne and as an ORUN instructor.

THE ACADEMY OFFICE
JOEP BARTELS has a university degree as a psychologist, but after practising psychology for some years he got involved in the equestrian industry. He was an active rider himself and he was for 10 years President of the International Alliance of Equestrian Journalists. Joep was a journalist and editor of several equestrian magazines and he wrote several books. In 1975 he was one of the founders of the publishing house and management company BCM. In 1997 he decided to leave the company to dedicate himself to the work of the Academy. Joep Bartels is also the initiator and director (untill 2004) of the FEI World Cup Dressage. H.M. the Queen awarded Joep Bartels a 'knight ship' in 2002. Since 2003 Joep is lector at the agricultural university Has Den Bosch.

GIJS BARTELS is the director of the Academy Events. At the Academy there are four kinds of special events: businessevents (teambuilding sessions and product presentations), educational projects (clinic and workshops), public events (like Global Dressage Forum and Horse Event), and sponsor management ( like the Dutch Pikeur Trophy Competition, Rabobank Talentenplan and FNRS Zitcompetitie).

ESTHER TACKEN is the project manager of the Global Dressage Forum and the Talent development program 'Rabobank Talentenplan', which she is running for the Dutch National federation. Esther also is responsible for the secretariat of the International Dressage Trainers Club. In all other events and projects Esther has an organizing role.

ANNET BROECKX runs the training arrangements and she is also is responsible for the finances and has an organizing role for the Global Dressage Forum.

JOEP SCHELLEKENS is working at the financial department of the Academy. He is married to Imke Schellekens-Bartels. Joep also has an organising role in the Global Dressage Forum and Horse Event.

EVELIEN BOUTEN studied at the HAS, one of Academy's partners. Evelien is project manager of the Horse Academy Foundation, and she is the project manager for the educational event Horse Event.

LIESBETH RUSSEL studied Dutch law and she graduated as an ORUN instructor. At the Academy she is responsible for the public relations. Liesbeth also has an organizing role different events, the Pikeur Trophy, Horse Event and she was in 2005 manager of the equestrian event for the Dutch Queen.

MIRELLA VAN LEEUWEN studied at the HAS and now she has an organizing role in events as Horse Event, Global Dressage Forum and she helps with the Talent development program 'Rabobank Talentenplan'.


does that help you get to the bottom of things?

mp
Nov. 22, 2006, 01:43 PM
thank you Class, once again I am looking for GDF Staff and MGT. That was supposed to be on the program according to Ellie K. And on a website. GDF Staff and MGT.

And this is important because ... ????

The fact that the Staff and MGT aren't on the website of the Global Dressage Forum is evidence of nothing. There must be a market for whatever information they're providing. Or people wouldn't have kept paying to come for the past 5 years.

Anyone (you included) can organize a dressage forum, book speakers/clinicians, advertise it and charge a fee to attend. And if you can get people to pay ~$600 to hear what you've got to offer, hoorah for you.


A beautiful program on paper that wasn't fully realized. It's a pity one can see where the Program was allowed to get off track on Day Two around 11:00 regarding panel discussion on Brentina’s Grand Prix, from there the lack of discussion is worse:
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep6.html

And, as proof of your own POV, you cite another first person account, that should be taken just as the OP's was ... as one person's perspective. That's elliptical reasoning at best, if you can all it reasoning at all.


Now that I don't have to keep responding to the same attacks

Does anyone else find this just a teensy bit ironic?

pinecone
Nov. 22, 2006, 02:09 PM
Is sm 3Sisters, and eqipoize is Monica?

Sm, even if your questions were legitimate and your concerns sincere, your attitude is quite a put off. Have you not learned that yet, from the reactions you invoke in people? In your case, it is not so much your message as the messenger.

I'd been planning to stay away from this thread, but it seems like it will not die.

It is also quite amusing when some of the most arrogant people are also the ones who are quickest to cry foul when they are given a taste of their own medicine.

Class, thanks for taking the time to provide the information you provided. You have more patience than most of us ;).

Good points, mp.

Tonja
Nov. 22, 2006, 02:13 PM
sm, is this what you are looking for?

“The Global Dressage Forum has now been officially recognised by the FEI. The FEI is the Patron of the Forum, with the Academy and the International Trainers Club (IDTC) as executive partners. On the organising committee are; Mariette Withages (Chairman FEI Dressage Committee), David Hunt (President IDTC) and Joep Bartels (Academy).”

From FEI News.

class
Nov. 22, 2006, 03:02 PM
WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? THIS IS EDUCATION, RIGHT?? SO EDUCATE !! RESPOND INTELLIGENTLY AND EDUCATE. Most people out of courtesy would cut and paste the info onto this thread.


Class, thanks for taking the time to provide the information you provided. You have more patience than most of us

you're welcome. and thanks for recognizing my patience, because what i really wanted to write was..

WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? THIS IS THE INTERNET, RIGHT?? SO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF !! RESEARCH INTELLIGENTLY AND GOOGLE. Most people out of courtesty would take the time to try to educate themselves.

but that was the old me. ;)

siegi b.
Nov. 22, 2006, 03:13 PM
Pinecone - I think you're on to something.... sm = 3Sisters, and Eqipoize = Monica - that's why Eqi knows about Mark's super secret bad boy lists. :-) Talk about an "engagement"!! :-)

And sm - tell me exactly why you expect people to spoon-feed you information that is available on the internet?

All together now - IT'S THE INTERNET, RIGHT? SO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF!

Class - you crack me up! Thank you for providing some levity.

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 03:19 PM
I don't think sm=3Sis. Totally different style of writing. But eqi=Monica, racking my brain to figure out who eqi was, yes, the tome-like responses were somewhat familiar (no offense, eq-monica, always enjoyed your posts):D

sm
Nov. 22, 2006, 04:06 PM
"Tonja post 337: sm, is this what you are looking for? “The Global Dressage Forum has now been officially recognised by the FEI. The FEI is the Patron of the Forum, with the Academy and the International Trainers Club (IDTC) as executive partners. On the organising committee are; Mariette Withages (Chairman FEI Dressage Committee), David Hunt (President IDTC) and Joep Bartels (Academy).” From FEI News."


thanks, this would do it. The people who are responsible for enforcing the claim on the GDF home page: "A forum of top trainers, riders, judges and journalists will evaluate every clinic. Constructive criticism and open debate will be encouraged. " http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/

mp, an article for eurodressage is professionally written. cleared legal, and not the same as simply "as one person's perspective."

class, the other sites you posted I read a while back. To answer your questions, it is important because of the promise made on the home page, "A forum of top trainers, riders, judges and journalists will evaluate every clinic. Constructive criticism and open debate will be encouraged. " http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/

pinecone, I don't mind attacks. I found them funny. I mind pages of the SAME attacks instead of giving information, "It is also quite amusing when some of the most arrogant people are also the ones who are quickest to cry foul when they are given a taste of their own medicine."

Ellie K
Nov. 22, 2006, 05:25 PM
Too bad it's incorrect (outdated) information. But sm is already off and running with an incorrect conclusion. Funny how that works. If you're going to post information (especially international information which is so widely misinterpreted) you have to post it in its entirety and in context.

As stated not only in the FEI press news, but in the GDF materials (reports)on the GDF site, the FEI sponsored the GDF in 2004. This is 2006. Why did they sponsor back in 2004? In case it's not obvious, they sponsored because a significant part of that Forum was devoted to the infamous "Happy Athlete" debate. Should they have sponsored it in 2004? IMO, no, and I told them so at the time although I don't technically get a say as I am not a stakeholder (not for dressage, anyway). Strangely, though, it appeared that none of the actual FEI stakeholders, such as the FEI's members (eg, USEF) had a problem with it, and in fact participated in the same forum. They are the ones who have the right to propose and ratify policy on such matters (since they approve the budget and statutes), and at the time, there were no such policies. As I told the FEI at the time, the very reason they thought it appropriate to sponsor (to encourage debate on a very controversial issue related to their rule) was the very reason that they should NOT (IMO) have sponsored. Because they have a stake in the debate, since it's their rule. And it just adds an element of silliness to something that was already going to be silly. Fine for the GDF to be silly, not so good for the FEI to be officially sponsoring the silliness. But that is an issue for the FEI; the GDF as part of a business is obviously going to make use of whatever resources are available to it. And the Bartels have no paucity of resources within the sport, which they have earned, IMO. It is no reflection on the GDF, it is a reflection on the FEI.

But again, freely available and widely known information, to anyone with the initiative to read the published reports. Just because someone read the information elsewhere, does not mean that there was a failure to disclose the information on the part of the GDF. If people choose not to read what the GDF publishes, they will be uninformed or they may get the information elsewhere. But it doesn't mean there was any secrecy and that there was something untoward. So, in other words, nothing has been "uncovered." Claims of some secret entity "behind" the GDF continue to be entirely bogus. Everyone knows, if they attended OR took the trouble to read the report. Too bad that doesn't sell papers, or give certain personalities a raison d'etre.

Do I think the FEI would sponsor it again? I highly doubt it. Because 1) 2004 was a long time ago...the FEI of today is not the FEI of 2004, not by a longshot. 2) policies governing conflicts of interest and so forth are currently being developed/implemented for the first time, and 3) perhaps I am not the only one who was critical of it and they might have listened to informed, reasoned, non-histrionic critique. I know they have in the past. But again, that doesn't sell papers.

siegi b.
Nov. 22, 2006, 05:40 PM
Welcome back, Ellie K.!!!!

And Dalfan, I figured it out by going back to TOB and reading just a few posts..... sm = mbm (wasn't even difficult). :-)

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 06:37 PM
Really? I thought mbm used the same moniker here as well. thx

Ellie K
Nov. 22, 2006, 06:38 PM
well I probably won't be back for long, not in this incarnation anyway. I was expecting the thread would get locked to put a stop to the insanity, didn't care about being banned as well, OK by me since Ellie was my dog, I had to put her down Friday after 15 years. And I've lost enough dogs that I should know the drill by now, but this one was special, or I should say, more special than the rest. We were somewhat telepathically connected. So I really don't care to be "Ellie K" anymore...because that was her.

Also thanks class, lol, for being "fresh blood." I guess we continued to refer to the easily accessible information not conceiving that anyone could be so lazy they STILL refused to simply read it, expecting others (who aren't in need of the information) to go retrieve and deliver it like dutiful minions. My bad.

Isn't mbm a young person? I don't see it. Also mbm knows how to use the quote feature.And I have never found her to be irrational.

cinder88
Nov. 22, 2006, 07:17 PM
..to ask a question.

I have read a number of times that Rolkur is NOT a subject of great debate or discussion in Europe. ..

If this is so, then WHY would the FEI devote part of its agenda to it?

And, why would the people who practise this training feel the need to "Put themselves out there....", if none (or few), of their peers, judges, etc, have a real problem with it? WHAt would those trainers have to gain (or lose) by making themselves available? It's not like they are trying to sell their technique, right? So...are they afraid that it is going to become so controversial that the judges will stop rewarding them?

Things I wonder about...

ideayoda
Nov. 22, 2006, 07:45 PM
The following group (http://www.berufsreiterverband.de/) even took out a page (fold out poster) saying RK/HF...Nein Danke (and then said why). It is an issue.

The work by Festerling should be translated as well shortly.

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 07:54 PM
I have read a number of times that Rolkur is NOT a subject of great debate or discussion in Europe. ..

Some would like you to believe that. It's much easier to dismiss critisism / outcry if people think it's just a "few wacky, pot stirrers" that are doing the complaining.



So...are they afraid that it is going to become so controversial that the judges will stop rewarding them?

IMHO, I believe so.

pinecone
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:26 PM
No, sm is not mbm. mbm posts as herself here. her spelling, grammer, and lack of capitalization puts her in somewhat of a class of her own. although she seems quite young, i believe she's nearer to her 30's, just very green to dressage.

On the other hand, sm's style and that of 3Sisters are almost identical. Neither is pleasant nor conducive to discussion imo. However, on TOB 3Sisters is the sacred cow. Here things are not so one sided, and "sm" is subjected to a myriad of viewpoints, and people are free to say they do not agree with her and why, and she can't hide under Mark's cloak of protection. Thank the heavens for this board!!!!!

Eqipoize being Monica was Becoming increasinly More Apparent, as Monica is Also moderator DressurReiter and would be Privy to Information Such As the Information she shared About Theo.

Ellie, it's good to have you back. Is there still an ignore feature? If so, we should all put sm on "ignore", so as to keep discussions more civil, productive, and pleasant in the future. ;) Because you really only SAID what we were already THINKING.

Cinder88, you've made some negative assumptions about the GDF and it's inclusion of Anky and Sjef. But you could also consider the possibility that they are PLEASED with this training tool of theirs and DESIRE to share it with others and WANT to educate people about it (since so many complaints stem from the fact that people don't "understand" it), and because it IS somewhat of a hot topic I was not surprised at all to see it discussed and demonstrated at such an important forum as the GDF. It's also worth reminding people, there were many more things which were discussed at the GDF, and not only hyperflexion. The other topics (as well as the other participants) are being forgotten with all of the mudslinging.

eqipoize
Nov. 22, 2006, 09:42 PM
Eqipoize being Monica was Becoming increasinly More Apparent, as Monica is Also moderator DressurReiter and would be Privy to Information Such As the Information she shared About Theo.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you Ever so much for the good laugh. It isn't true. I am NOT at ALL close to Mark, I do Not moderate Any bb, and the only reason I know anything about Theo and Mark is because of things Mark has posted publically when he has spotted Theo in one disguise or another. Sorry to mess up your clever scheme of things, you are just wrong.

I wonder about your conclusions that 3S is a 'sacred cow' - what EVER are you basing THAT on??? the fact that she is very dogmatic and passionate in her posts, BUT manages to stay civil?? So she doesn't get banned? Near as I can tell, UDBB welcomes ANYONE who can manage to post without making personal attacks (like calling someone 'sour muffin', or a ho, or any one of a large number of name calling insults). By the way, calling someone a sacred cow is a nifty insult as well.

This bb seems to thrive on insults, and I can take what can be dished out - and while I think that a large number of the people on this bb have a real lack in debate communiction skills, I also think that there are some intelligent and experienced dressage riders who post here. I don't agree with everything that is posted, but I appreciate that Everyone thinks THEY are right. that is called having convinction.

Someone asked why I come here - now I can add something to the list - AMUSEMENT!!! You folks are Hysterical - in both uses of the word.

Dalfan
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:21 PM
since so many complaints stem from the fact that people don't "understand" it

There shouldn't be a big mystery, super-secret training method that people have a hard time "understanding". If only the very elite can understand and use this method something is absolutely wrong with it, IMHO of course.


UDBB welcomes ANYONE who can manage to post without making personal attacks

Sorry, have to disagree with you there. I was suspended for someone else making an acronym of Dalfan. Just an excuse for him to mollify the "run behind the mod's skirt crowd".

canyonoak
Nov. 22, 2006, 11:24 PM
yes! I finally figured out how to use the Ignore feature...Honestly, I do not have any idea why everyone just does not use this feature. It saves a lot of time.

I really like reading the BBs; I especially love COTH, and the various forums--I actually go to just about all the forums, although dressage is my favorite.

But now, I will not have to wade through so much slush--it's great.

Thank you to whichever poster mentioned the Ignore feature!

Sorry about your dog, Ellie K. Each of us is allowed only a few Great Dogs in each lifetime, and each of us knows how fortunate we are to have even one of them .

As for the GDF...I thought the original posts by eurobreederstour provided an outstanding and insightful overview of this year's meeting. I have a feeling that the sports psychology applications are going to take a quantum jump in the next few years in terms of popularity and widespread usage.

Which is why I asked about HealthMath.

anyway, it will be intertesting to see which programs/practitioners start rising to the top.

eqipoize
Nov. 23, 2006, 12:01 AM
Yes, I also meant to extend sympathies to Ellie K - each one that we lose leaves a dog shaped hole in our heart. Do ask Erin if you can change your name - I am sure she would understand, and arrange it if the software permits.

DalFan - sorry to hear about how/why you were banned. Yes, sometimes Mark goes overboard - but it is nothing I have any control over - really, I am Not a moderator - if I were, I would be policing all the time, and really, I just don't have time for it. Rode 8 horses today, total weeks count 60 horses worked in some form or another. Doesn't permit much sitting about.

Sabine
Nov. 23, 2006, 12:38 AM
this thread sure has zigzagged all over the map- without really going more into the topic at hand- which is sad.
First off- Ellie- I am very sorry for your loss- it took me 2 years to get over the death of my dog-my thoughts are with you!
DAlfan- never thought you had such a 'tragic' experience on UDBB- but mine was similar- and ultimately a good thing...I really can't deal with these benevolent patriarch types and apart from everyone having brown noses over there- it has become a pretty limited environment as far as open discussion.
sm- I think you're done.
equipoize- you are tetering somewhere in a weird place...:?
tonya- sorry for lumping you in..shouldn't have....

nonetheless anyone here also read about the British Dressage Forum (and please don't ask me who organized that) and the teachings of A&S during those two days? There is a fab report on the BD website and I thought a lot of this stuff kind of neatly worked into the GDF results...

for anyone interested:

http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news.cfm?news_id=116

Happy Thanksgiving- back to cooking now...:)

Gaia
Nov. 23, 2006, 02:23 AM
Does it matter? WHO the people are - the information and opinions are what they are... If something is verifiable OK - otherwise just and opinion. The nickname on a BB? that should not be something to worry about.

Sabine
Nov. 23, 2006, 02:33 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you Ever so much for the good laugh. It isn't true. I am NOT at ALL close to Mark, I do Not moderate Any bb, and the only reason I know anything about Theo and Mark is because of things Mark has posted publically when he has spotted Theo in one disguise or another. Sorry to mess up your clever scheme of things, you are just wrong.

I wonder about your conclusions that 3S is a 'sacred cow' - what EVER are you basing THAT on??? the fact that she is very dogmatic and passionate in her posts, BUT manages to stay civil?? So she doesn't get banned? Near as I can tell, UDBB welcomes ANYONE who can manage to post without making personal attacks (like calling someone 'sour muffin', or a ho, or any one of a large number of name calling insults). By the way, calling someone a sacred cow is a nifty insult as well.

This bb seems to thrive on insults, and I can take what can be dished out - and while I think that a large number of the people on this bb have a real lack in debate communiction skills, I also think that there are some intelligent and experienced dressage riders who post here. I don't agree with everything that is posted, but I appreciate that Everyone thinks THEY are right. that is called having convinction.

Someone asked why I come here - now I can add something to the list - AMUSEMENT!!! You folks are Hysterical - in both uses of the word.

I think that Equipoize is much more likely to be Monica S- she has a training barn and is a pro-trainer- this could jive more likely.
3S is JT Kachmar in Mondovi WI, I think possibly an ops manager for some company up there, she has 3 mares- I remember her pictures- riding a pony type horse, very pretty- and she never claimed to be a pro- just a well informed, comitted horse person. She got more bitter over the years- I have noticed- but I don't spend much time reading UDBB- it gives me a bit of indigestion.
Mbm is Mbm- you have to almost like her for that- at least she doesn't play those games...:)

Sabine
Nov. 23, 2006, 03:02 AM
Does it matter? WHO the people are - the information and opinions are what they are... If something is verifiable OK - otherwise just and opinion. The nickname on a BB? that should not be something to worry about.

I agree in concept- but I also think we should have an identity.I think you are Gaia here and there and what you say is what you say. Good.
I was Sabina there and am Sabine here- and it's the same thing. I never change my ID- because that's who I am- and frankly- I am not out to fool peeps- I just love dressage and discussion and I think it's really good to talk about what we observe- actually the last post you posted on UDBB was quite good- I was thinking about your observations and trying to figure out how much merit I want to give to this...it's all about talking about what we love- and I think it's so stupid to attack certain trainers or methods or GDF or BD for having A&S etc- it's so much more constructive to figure out what worked and what didn't and what seems reasonable and what is not...(of course all of this being a matter of taste, sensibility, ethics, and habit of what we have all learned when we were young...)

Bogey2
Nov. 23, 2006, 06:58 AM
Tune in tomorrow to "As The GDF Turns"...will Egontoast be reinstated? Will sm and equipoize reveal their true indentity as.......? Will Mark ban all those who use different names on the UDBB than on COTH? Will Mark come out from behind that skirt and reinstate Dalfan?


Find out tomorrow when the story continues...now a word from our sponsor..

Rusty Stirrup
Nov. 23, 2006, 08:23 AM
so: does anyone know anything about HealthMath or BrainSmart...? these are related concepts, and apparently Rico Schuijers referred to them. They refer to websites/people who are trying to use neuropsychology and various other techniques to help athletes/the rest of the world's human beings perform better, achieve better, concentrate etc.

In an attempt to get back a a discussion of some of what was discussed:

http://www.warren-wilson.edu/~wellness/heart_rate.shtml

http://web.naesp.org/nprc/description.php?II=122&UID=2006112308053170.153.210.98&naespid=BSS-OL

I know Jane Savoie is big into this type of thing.

ToN Farm
Nov. 23, 2006, 09:01 AM
Scroll down the cache of the California Farm Directory to Sweetwater Ranch and you will see msellers and the associated link to equipoize.com (there is the added letter 'u' and the link doesn't work). It does matter to me who is behind the name. There are way too many book-smart eloquent writers without experience to back it up. I don't consider dressage forums a place to flaunt literary skill.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:uYPjZd60pgwJ:www.socalequine.com/travel/camps_for_kids.htm+www.equipoize&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&lr=lang_en

Bogey2
Nov. 23, 2006, 09:10 AM
I attended a Rico Schuijers seminar. It was very good. I really should pull out my materials from it and start practicing for the next show season.

pinecone
Nov. 23, 2006, 09:25 AM
Scroll down the cache of the California Farm Directory to Sweetwater Ranch and you will see msellers and the associated link to equipoize.com (there is the added letter 'u' and the link doesn't work). It does matter to me who is behind the name. There are way too many book-smart eloquent writers without experience to back it up. I don't consider dressage forums a place to flaunt literary skill.


M Sellers = Monica Sellers = Monica Whitmer = Monica S = DressurReiter = eqipoize.

To call 3Sisters merely "bitter" is quite an understatement:lol:

Yes, I had forgotten about the ignore feature. To use it, click on the name of the offensive poster, then click on their profile, then click "add to my ignore list", and magically they will never be able to disrupt pleasant discussions again.

Kathy Johnson
Nov. 23, 2006, 09:27 AM
First, thanks for the great report! It was fact filled, impartial and informative.

Secondly, this was in the British dressage report. I have been hearing this kind of talk about the inside leg/outside rein connection from various sources. I would like to start another thread on it, with more info. Did Sjef explain anything about why this is so bad, or when it should or shouldn't be used?


The next controversial issue was raised when Sjef said: “Whoever invented the ‘inside leg to outside rein’ rule should be killed.” He did tone this down later, saying it was a tool that should be used only when needed.

And as for the logo and statue:


Global DRESSAGE Forum that chooses for it's corporate statue a horse/pony that is in violation of FEI dressage (rounded at 3/4th vertabrae as in RK, clearly not correctly at the poll; open mouth which is a fault in dressage).

What is even more damning is that the rider is NAKED. Naked, people, not even a loin cloth. How could the FEI condone such blatant disregard for the FEI rules, neigh, for the very uniform and traditions of dressage? And the horse has NO BIT, NO BRIDLE!!! Bitless riding in a birthday suit. Is this the future of dressage???

eqipoize
Nov. 23, 2006, 10:56 AM
M Sellers = Monica Sellers = Monica Whitmer = Monica S = DressurReiter = eqipoize.

To call 3Sisters merely "bitter" is quite an understatement:lol:

Yes, I had forgotten about the ignore feature. To use it, click on the name of the offensive poster, then click on their profile, then click "add to my ignore list", and magically they will never be able to disrupt pleasant discussions again.

You guys are correct right up until you think I am DressurReiter! and I never 'hid' my identity here, when the board moved, I couldn't remember my passwords and it was just as easy to open a new account. I had a new email address and everything. So, i have been 'outed' but then again, I was never hiding in a closet, or behind a skirt. But I repeat, I am NOT a moderator on UDBB - I don't know how to prove that, but it is simple fact.

As far as my ranch website - it doesn't exist right now, and some company GRABBED my url, so I just haven't bothered. Not everyone needs a website. But one of these days I will open one again, just to put up my horses for sale - which is something I have been avoiding, but now I Have to sell some clients horses, so a website would be nice.

The interesting thing is that a number of you jumped all over someone because they had a 'conspiracy theory' - which the poster never said - and now the SAME people who trashed her, seem to have cooked up some very lovely conspiracy that involves Me, MS and 3S - and honestly, I don't know those two people from Adam - I have exchanged posts on the bb with them and once 3S sent me a private message. That is it.

But you won't believe me, it doesn't fit your cooked up plot. And it doesn't really matter WHO I am, does it? I have not claimed in any post to be other than I am - a pro rider who has showed through 4th, ridden all the movements of GP - some on my own horse, some on my trainers horse. I have worked with Walter Zettl enough to understand what he is trying to teach, but I don't claim to be his protegy (I can only wish!!!). But I CAN help him argue his case, in the hope that Someone will listen, and change how they work with their horse. We can only save the starfish on the beach one at a time. And sometimes I DO make a difference - people PM me and let me know. So, will I shut up, no. Will I go away, probably not, I seem to be able to keep up on both bb's these days. I try to hold my course, and NOT issue personal insults - and I notice that slc's only reponse to my request for an example was to make a sarcastic crack that implied that I Would Not listen to her, and I don't work on my spirituality. (which was an insult, but not worth responding to).

Anyway, at least I think I now understand Eggy's animosity towards me - Dressagreiter must have gotten her banned, and she thinks he is me!!!! Well, it really truely isn't true. I know it wouldn't help if I got Mark to say it, but honest - I am NOT Dressagereiter and I am not a moderator on UDBB. When I think someone is out of line, I just tell them in a post.

Now, I have to clean stalls and work horses before driving to my Dad's for Thanksgiving. Hope you all have a wonderful day with friends and family - whether I agree with you or not, I will you all much joy. Monica Whitmer of Sweetwater Ranch, Lancaster California (who does not have a cloak of invisibility, but if I did, There, I took it off!)

cinder88
Nov. 23, 2006, 11:09 AM
Pinecone....that's a good point you made earlier to my question about WHY the Rolkur thing was included in the seminar.

Perhaps you're right that it was included because it is such a hot topic, because it WORKS.

I suppose any technique being used that earns the scores that AvG does is somethng that deserves a good look, and I shouldn't assume that they are looking for the bad points.

I still remain unconvinced, as does my coach who worked for a long time for a Swiss Olympic rider and saw a LOT of this techinque at FEI shows in Europe. (And, what he thinks of it couldn't be printed here...)

I will keep a more open mind next time.

Cinder

I wonder if, many years from now, someone will say about Sjef Jannsen..."Whoever invented that Rolkur thing should be KILLED"?

Horsedances
Nov. 23, 2006, 11:15 AM
Maybe we should stick to the topic "My thoughts on the 2006 GDF".

This topic was started with a unbiased and wonderfull write-up from somebody who have attended this forum. Thumbs up for taken the time
to share this with us.

Some days later Eurodressage (iq Astrid Appels) published her article, DressageDirect (ic Claartje van Andel) published their article and all other media followed. The same GDF, but it seems to me that there were 10 different GDF's at the same time.

Some posts ago I gave you all the only solution, send somebody with a camera and put the whole GDF on the Internet.

But even than we mis the real discussions, because the real discussions are held at the bar and the restaurants before and after the public sessions.

Theo

Dalfan
Nov. 23, 2006, 11:50 AM
Maybe we should stick to the topic "My thoughts on the 2006 GDF".

Yes, but I would still like to see the UDBB post you are talking about. Just doesn't seem likely with how you stated it.



Dressagreiter must have gotten her banned, and she thinks he is me!!!!

A HE not a SHE?


To call 3Sisters merely "bitter" is quite an understatement

Sorry, I don't find that at all. Thoughtful, yes. Bitter, no. Maybe you ended up on the short end of the argument too often.


and ultimately a good thing...I really can't deal with these benevolent patriarch types and apart from everyone having brown noses over there- it has become a pretty limited environment as far as open discussion.

Here we agree. Preaching to the choir is very popular over there.:lol:

Musn'tGrumble
Nov. 23, 2006, 02:19 PM
Did Sjef explain anything about why this is so bad, or when it should or shouldn't be used?

"The next controversial issue was raised when Sjef said: “Whoever invented the ‘inside leg to outside rein’ rule should be killed.” He did tone this down later, saying it was a tool that should be used only when needed."



Because it makes the horse crooked. He exlained that the horse should be made straight first and foremost.

I interpret this as - people tend to take comments in isolation, so when somebody says "inside leg to outside rein" they will do this without considering the supporting aids that are needed. Similarly when they say "no leg in the downward transition" people don't understand that it means the leg should always be ready to send the horse foreward if it thinks backwards into the transition, hence lots of 3/4 and 1/4 halts, not that the leg should be completely off whilst the horse falls into the transition.

I wasn't at the convention but had the opportunity to talk to a judge who was. Needless to say this is my interpretation and I could be hopelessly wrong:D

slc2
Nov. 23, 2006, 04:31 PM
you guys certainly don't need any help cathecting.

mbm
Nov. 23, 2006, 08:25 PM
And Dalfan, I figured it out by going back to TOB and reading just a few posts..... sm = mbm (wasn't even difficult). :-)

not true. not that i care who you think i am. but i have never had an alter - here or anywhere :)

edited to add: wow after reading more pages it sees that i am a bit of a mystery! how fun. and i will admit publically that spelling has always been my least best skill ;) when i was a kid they took aptitude tests... and it came about that i was great at math, analytical skills etc - but sucked at spelling. so of course the results were that i should be a doctor or vet or scientist! :)

(pinecone will be happy to hear that i now have a built in spell checker for my firefox ! no more bad spelling!!! whoo hoo!)

as for the rest - i will admit that this thread (and entire board) are beyond belief and prove that many people have too much time on their hands - and i would LOVE to meet some of you in person - i bet you wouldn't have the balls to talk to someone face to face the way you do here.

and, i also think it really funny that so many of you miss the UDBB so much :)

happy thanksgiving all
(what i am thankful for: that i am not as bitter and mean as many of you sound)

Dalfan
Nov. 24, 2006, 12:36 AM
i also think it really funny that so many of you miss the UDBB so much

Um..don't you know? I've never left it :lol: :winkgrin: :cool:

sm
Nov. 24, 2006, 12:42 PM
I second mbm, #370, regarding the Identity Conspirary you have going.
When you get around to Ellie K = sm, wake me up.


happy thanksgiving everyone :)

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 01:28 AM
this is bad form I know, but I couldn't be bothered posting on the UDBB because the reaction would be irrational, but I wanted to say, ott, that it cracked me up when someone called BB asked for a classically trained horse that was competing up there with the best on the world stage now and someone cited Kyra K and Lisa Wilcox under Ernst Hoyos as examples of top trainer competing horses trained classically!!!! Yeah right, anyone who has seen Kyra training Briar very very deep and heard Ernst talk about training deep " of course I train the horses deep, we do it here and we did it at the SRS", might be in for a shock!!!! And then they used Manolo Mendez as another example, when in reality he cannot even place in local club competitions in a backwater like regional Australia on the horse he is training 'classically'.

No, the more I look at the alternative the more I think that including an
in-depth study and discussion of HF at the GDF is not only legitimate and a good idea but essential for the future transparent and positive development of the sport. Lets get it out in the open and discuss it and encourage its proper use, its been used for years, might as well use it well, and this type of discussion facilitates this. A good idea all round, and then if you still don't want to use it fine, but lets not make it dressage 'taboo'.

Sabine
Nov. 25, 2006, 02:09 AM
SSSHHH!! you are giving the secret away...lots of these major UDBB peeps- have no clue...they have not travelled much and seen only a few limited outings - in real life and well editted video tapes- of show rides- not training rides....

It would be like destroying some of their major statues- now girl- that would be very mean!!!Bad on you!

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 02:12 AM
SSSHHH!! you are giving the secret away...lots of these major UDBB peeps- have no clue...they have not travelled much and seen only a few limited outings - in real life and well editted video tapes- of show rides- not training rides....

It would be like destroying some of their major statues- now girl- that would be very mean!!!Bad on you!


i'm pure evil sabine, you know that! lol

eqipoize
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:28 AM
SSSHHH!! you are giving the secret away...lots of these major UDBB peeps- have no clue...they have not travelled much and seen only a few limited outings - in real life and well editted video tapes- of show rides- not training rides....

It would be like destroying some of their major statues- now girl- that would be very mean!!!Bad on you!

You DO realize that this is insulting, derogatory, and based on a number of assumptions that you cannot prove. Right? You Know you are being arrogant and nasty? Just wanted to be sure.

At least Nero kept the commentary to personal opinion. And is willing to say that s/he thinks Hyperflexion is useful and would like to learn how to do it in the manner that the FEI has declared is NOT injurious to the horse. Fair enough. If someone wants to turn their horse into a pretzel, that is between them and their horse. I just don't think the end product represents the ideal of dressage, and I don't think it should be rewarded in the show ring - and I KNOW you don't judge the warm up, I believe that HF trained horses have significant recognisable flaws that are Not being penalized at this time, and these flaws need to be taking into consideration when the scores are handed out.

As far as classical riders, I agree, Kyra (as much as I used to honor her riding in the traditional manner, and I know her original coach very well) is Not holding the line, she is doing what it takes to win, and that includes HF training and a fair bit of brown nosing. And look how well it paid off - right after she participates in the GDF, she has an incredible score in the freestyle. Bully for her - she out played, out lasts, out survived the competition. People who think she is classical are probably just remembering her past, and not wanting to recognise her present reality.

Regarding Manolo - of course we get to the circular logic of whether the judges are rewarding the right stuff. Or since I haven't seen his WB compete, he may just need more time. Can't say. I CAN say I have seen the man train, and ride FEI level horses in clinics, and it is the Real Deal. Horses move better, start using their bodies better, and the end product is Far superior to most of what I see in the show ring. So, I would ask - have you SEEN the man train? Do you know what you are slamming? Or are you just looking down from your imagined superiority and degrading what you know nothing about? just wondering.

sm
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:56 AM
as well as WRONG, epi, if nero is associating DEEP with RK. It is different. Anyway, speaking of Kyra, here was Kyra's comments of Anky at GDF 2006:

"...Anky stated that 'I am 90% sure I wouldn’t have been this good without this system. The horses are easy, soft on the aids and elastic. It makes the last couple of percentages that makes me the best.' The Dutch duo was addressed by a panel that included Dr. Hillary Clayton, Kyra Kyrklund and St Georg journalist Kerstin Niemann. Kyrklund said that she doesn’t understand the benefit there is from keeping a horse so low and tight. " http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep7.html



In comparison, here was Kyra's comments on Hubertus Schmidt's Classical Dressage demo at GDF 2006. " Schmidt stated that he rides according to the classical system of the “Skala der Ausbildung” which was created by the cavalry and 'which is still up-to-date now' ” :

"Schmidt got off his horse and faced a discussion panel which bestowed much praise upon his soft way of riding and on the world class qualities of Furst Fabio. 'This is the best horse I have ever seen. I am envious,' five-time Olympian Kyra Kyrklund said."
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep2.html

So nero and Sabine, Kyra was clear with her opinion at GDF 2006...

mbm
Nov. 25, 2006, 11:29 AM
i know i shouldn't waste my time, but did you consider that perhaps the word "deep" has many meaning ins and that certain trainers use the term to mean something OTHER than RK? and that there are plenty of trainers that do not use RK that are in the top in the world and that we didn't answer the person asking the question on the OB because it was so open ended and they were not going to accept anything we have said (kind of like here) in anycase?

Dalfan
Nov. 25, 2006, 12:13 PM
that perhaps the word "deep" has many meaning

Low and Deep, Low, deep, round IS NOT hyperflexion, rollkur, or chest-biting. I'm not surprised that those who approve/ride/train HF don't know the difference.

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 06:39 PM
sm - didn't say that deep was rk. please read properly and avoid twisting words to suit yourself. what i said was it was interesting that people cite kyra as a classical trainer when she also clearly trains horses btv and very deep, which is contrary to classical principles, no? Non classical does NOT automatically equal rollkur my friend.

As for Manolo, well without wanting to be too mean, yes i have seen him train and i have seen his horse in competition, not impressed with either and I'm afraid he is not on the radar as a trainer or competitor in his own country. BUT in his defense he might want it that way, his way of training doesn't seem to get results in the comp arena, but that is exactly my point. While training a horse classically might appeal to you all for it gentleness etc, and look that is totally honourable, it just doesn't seem to get results. And this discussion is about a global dressage forum aimed at promoting FEI COMPETITION riding, maybe you should move to a srs forum if this offends your sensibilities.

FWIW I have seen more horses turned into pretzels in the name of classical training then in deep training, to me a pretzel is something that is bent forever, rigid and brittle, that perfectly sums up horses trained poll high and hollow for their entire lives, to me rk'd horses are much more supple and fluid, more like playdough!!! lol - maybe a bad anaolgy, but you get my point!

And whoever said I'd prefer to have my horses as pretzels, well as you wish, but you totally underestimate my appreciation of supple, light, engaged and forward horses. The reason I like Anky's style, and yes I have seen her clinics, seen her train in private AND compete, is because of a whole bunch of reasons, mainly her care, her logic, her approach to riding, and her end result of course - but if you would like to suggest that I like her because I want my horse like a pretzel, well I feel a tad sorry for you as you seem to miss the point and manage to be patronising at the same time. But it seems that is the way of those who disagree with rk, just insult and patronise though who don't hate it too. NOT real honourable.

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 06:46 PM
Low and Deep, Low, deep, round IS NOT hyperflexion, rollkur, or chest-biting. I'm not surprised that those who approve/ride/train HF don't know the difference. I know the difference, again read the post again if you need clarification. I was not saying deep is rk, I was saying the way the trainers train in the examples I used is not strictly classical. FWIW the pics I have seen Briar training with Kyra, the horse was as round and deep as anything Anky has sat on.

BTW Dalfan, if you use this sort of tone with someone who has just entered the thread and has not even engaged you, they will not bother to try and discuss anything further with you, why would they even attempt it. Some of you guys just get nastier and nastier.

""Or are you just looking down from your imagined superiority and degrading what you know nothing about? just wondering."""

Gee whizz. What a pleasant person you are, epipoize!!!!

Dalfan
Nov. 25, 2006, 07:36 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to have a "tone". But there is a major difference between RK/HF and LDR that sometimes gets muddled up. And this "discussion" has been quite nasty long before this point.

I, for one don't really see a difference in someone who uses RK/HF and the person who ties the head of the WP Horse to the stall wall/ceiling for the purposes of exhausting the neck muscles for a more "appropriate" headset.Or the HJ trainer trainer who ties the horses head to it's tail/saddle so it will "give" to the rein. Gadgets, shortcuts, cruelty, whatever you want to call it. It's ugly, harmful,imho, to the horse and has no place in compassionate, correct training. Sorry.

Edited to add; The results DON'T justify the means.

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 07:42 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to have a "tone". But there is a major difference between RK/HF and LDR that sometimes gets muddled up. And this "discussion" has been quite nasty long before this point.

Well i wasn't a part of it before, so maybe don't take it out on me OK. I'm well aware of the nuances of the different 'styles', for want of a better word.

mbm
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:08 PM
i just want to ask what folks think of H Schmidt? he is classical and he wins. he is even winning at intl comps.

i could name others but what is the point?

eqipoize
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:08 PM
this is bad form I know, but I couldn't be bothered posting on the UDBB because the reaction would be irrational, but I wanted to say, ott, that it cracked me up when someone called BB asked for a classically trained horse that was competing up there with the best on the world stage now and someone cited Kyra K and Lisa Wilcox under Ernst Hoyos as examples of top trainer competing horses trained classically!!!! Yeah right, anyone who has seen Kyra training Briar very very deep and heard Ernst talk about training deep " of course I train the horses deep, we do it here and we did it at the SRS", might be in for a shock!!!! And then they used Manolo Mendez as another example, when in reality he cannot even place in local club competitions in a backwater like regional Australia on the horse he is training 'classically'.
No, the more I look at the alternative the more I think that including an
in-depth study and discussion of HF at the GDF is not only legitimate and a good idea but essential for the future transparent and positive development of the sport. Lets get it out in the open and discuss it and encourage its proper use, its been used for years, might as well use it well, and this type of discussion facilitates this. A good idea all round, and then if you still don't want to use it fine, but lets not make it dressage 'taboo'.


If we want to discuss tone, please reconsider the phrases marked in green - they have a haughty attitude if I ever saw one. So, if you are going to dish it out, (which seems to be the style on this bb) then be prepared for it to bounce right back at you.

If you knew me in person, you would realize I am actually a Very pleasant, kind and patient person. I am also FULLY capable of standing my ground, and digging in when a situation warrents. So, if you want a pleasant conversation, keep a pleasant attitude, and I will do the same. I would very much prefer it that way. I DO respect your willingness to admit that you Would use HF if you were sure you could do it 'right'. Most of the supporters don't have the guts to admit that. They say "oh no, not me, I would Never do it, but...If Anky wants to, well, that is her choice.". So, I respect your honesty and think you are correct that HF needs to be investigated thoroughly. But I do hope ;that it won't be a situation like the symposium in January, where the outcome reported was Very different than what many of the attendees THOUGHT had been decided. It is very interesting to read the whole long report, and especially some of the added commentary at the end. One wonders who wrote up the first report, and how much spin they intended to put on it, or was it really accidental? Anyway, more needs to be done, with a much wider selection of horses than just two sets of x rays - especially since we don't have Any guarantee that the x rays presented are of the horses they are claimed to represent. I know with OFA hip xrays, it became a real problem, people substituted dogs and got high ratings, and then put them on a dog with sub standard hips. So, it can be done. Often without the vets knowledge. I am not saying for certian that is what happened here, but I AM saying that there is no way to assure that it Didn't. So, some sort of program needs to be set up with controls and assurances of accuracy. And I would want at LEAST 20 HF trained horses examined, and then another 20 that are classically trained, and then another 20 who are not dressage trained at all. THEN we might have a real useful set of data.

Anyway, HF is here, and unless we look it In the Eye and acknowledge it, and address all the aspects of it, we are not going to resolve anything. Crying abuse does little good, no matter What my personal opinion of the psycological aspect of this sort of work might be. But I still say, it is Ugly enough to merit removal from the warm up ring simply on the appearance of mistreatment. I mean, if a 120 cm whip seems cruel, then why would we allow a horse to be made to put his nose on his chest, with his mouth gapping open.

OK, is that a rational enough discussion? I would love for it to stay that way.

nero
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:32 PM
Monica, lets not get into a pissing contest. I was not laughing at BB on the udbb, I was agreeing with him/her, I was laughing at the response - is one not allowed to have a chuckle at a misguided opinion these days. I wasn't being personally affronting to anyone directly or specifically THATS the difference - whereas you went for me without provocation. I don't care what you are like in person, only care how you might appear here when you patronise me without knowing anything about me. So maybe I have a certain 'flair' in my posts and language but I'm not directing them at you or anyone else personally, that's just my style. But there is a difference, you do the 'personal attack' thang, which is why i don't really care to engage you in discussion.

And sorry Manolo is a public figure, fair game for comment just as you comment on other riders.

mbm, Hubertus doesn't seem to win though when there are other high profile hyperflexion proponents or riders who train deep present in the class though, the international competition he won recenty didn't have a very strong field - certainly though he is a great trainer and rider but even his top horses have the same 'faults' as those trained rk, but no one seems to blame HIS training methods in that instance do they. And if you can name the other classically trained horses beating the non classically trained ones at the moment (hf and deep), please do.

Sabine
Nov. 25, 2006, 09:53 PM
mbm, Hubertus doesn't seem to win though when there are other high profile hyperflexion proponents or riders who train deep present in the class though, the international competition he won recenty didn't have a very strong field - certainly though he is a great trainer and rider but even his top horses have the same 'faults' as those trained rk, but no one seems to blame HIS training methods in that instance do they. And if you can name the other classically trained horses beating the non classically trained ones at the moment (hf and deep), please do.
I would also be very interested in more examples of truly classically trained top horses. With that I mean horses in the top 20. Me thinks possibly Sylvia Ikle is classical- but I don't care for the tongue on her horse- otherwise- it's a pleasant picture. I do not KNOW a classically trained horse that could be described as ' explosive', 'extravagant' 'flamboyant' and I think we all have gotten used to a tad of that ingredient in the top horses- at least in the extended paces...so there's got to be a middle road- something along the lines of Isabel maybe- she does ride very deep- not certain if she engages in the RK thingie to the degree S& A does- not sure if she rides with jambon/double etc....

HS is a great rider, trainer and classical example- but he has never had a horse that was a true winner. It remains to be seen if he succeeds in buying Fuerst Fabio, if he can produce true classical brilliance- as the horse has fantastic paces and can certainly stand up to Briar, Sal and Company!

eqipoize
Nov. 25, 2006, 10:03 PM
Nero - I am going to acknowlege, you are right - none of your comments were directed at an individual involved in the discussions, and while you may have said some unkind things about the members of the UDBB, many of whom I consider friends, even if I have only met a few, it wasn't directly personal. I should NOT have said what I said, and I applogize. If you want I can edit it out, although then it leaves an odd gap in the discussion - and I will only do so if you prefer. I should know better than to defend by attacking. my mistake.

YoungFilly
Nov. 25, 2006, 10:03 PM
Just having to point out here, that this *MIGHT* may I say *MIGHT* be the longest thread in the history of COTH. This thread started a month ago. Poor poster who started this thing. :no:

Sabine
Nov. 25, 2006, 10:10 PM
Just having to point out here, that this *MIGHT* may I say *MIGHT* be the longest thread in the history of COTH. This thread started a month ago. Poor poster who started this thing. :no:

Whyy- EBT gave one of the most detailed and compelling accounts of the GDF. It should have been published and she should have been paid for it- as I found it quite clear, non- opinionated and detailed. I still think she deserves a great award for doing this....

The fact that peeps get into it over A&S should not be a surprise YF- just another version of an RK thread...:)

sm
Nov. 27, 2006, 11:54 AM
nero #381: "I was not saying deep is rk, I was saying the way the trainers train in the examples I used is not strictly classical. FWIW the pics I have seen Briar training with Kyra, the horse was as round and deep as anything Anky has sat on."

Do you have any photos of Krya training as you describe, there are too many words from past posts: classical; classical as some at SRS trains which includes deep; etc. Then there is nero's "very deep." At what point does your very deep go into RK?

In response to above, "I have seen Briar training with Kyra, the horse was as round and deep as anything Anky has sat on," Kyrklund said that she doesn’t understand the benefit there is from keeping a horse so low and tight. " http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/...6gdf/rep7.html

So a photo would help if you are stating Kyra rides "as round and deep as anything Anky has sat on."

mp
Nov. 27, 2006, 01:57 PM
mp, an article for eurodressage is professionally written. cleared legal, and not the same as simply "as one person's perspective."

Ohhhhh .... so professional journalists always check their opinions at the door, do they? I wonder if Rupert Murdoch's minions at Fox News know that.


it is important because of the promise made on the home page, "A forum of top trainers, riders, judges and journalists will evaluate every clinic. Constructive criticism and open debate will be encouraged. "

Are you investigating the marketing claims because you might want to attend next year? Or are you going for the Ralph Nader Award for consumer protection in dressage forums?

Good grief. Get a grip.

Anyone going to the USDF Symposium this weekend? We all know who's sponsoring it at least. But I bet we can get in another big stink about what's presented if we try real hard. :rolleyes:

Atlantis
Nov. 27, 2006, 02:23 PM
A clarification:

Briar is trained (ridden) by Jan Brink. Jan Brink is coached by Kyra. Jan, Kyra, and Briar were a part of a former GDF, which included them working "deep". Jan trains using deep, when appropriate. I would assume Kyra approves. I don't know if Kyra also trains her own horses deep. I would assume she does. There are also a million degrees of deep.

Having seen both hyperflexion and Jan's deep, I would say the difference could best be described in that the "deep" is not quite as deep as hyperflexion, and the neck is a bit lower.

Atlantis
Nov. 27, 2006, 02:30 PM
To mp and sm, eurodressage's report most certainly is "one person's perspective". The perspective of one person whose opinion on dressage is hardly a secret.

The eurobreederstour report is also "one person's perspective". In this case, I found this report to be less biased than the eurodressage report. You both, however, are entitled to disagree!

sm
Nov. 27, 2006, 02:53 PM
Anyone (including A&S and/or GDF) can certianly bring a lawsuit or two against eurodressage for a misquote or misrepresentation, so we will see on the accuracy of the report...

Coreene
Nov. 27, 2006, 03:23 PM
Just having to point out here, that this *MIGHT* may I say *MIGHT* be the longest thread in the history of COTH.
No, not by a longshot. Longest was a Canadian one, years ago. Runner up was "Question for Merry." Both made this one look like a little rant.

mp
Nov. 27, 2006, 04:09 PM
To mp and sm, eurodressage's report most certainly is "one person's perspective". The perspective of one person whose opinion on dressage is hardly a secret.

The eurobreederstour report is also "one person's perspective". In this case, I found this report to be less biased than the eurodressage report. You both, however, are entitled to disagree!

I wasn't at the forum, so I have no idea which one is more or less biased (although I have a sneaking suspicion ;)). But … sm apparently thinks if a report is "professionally written," it should carry more credence than a recap written and posted on a BB by another attendee. And I think that's pretty funny, considering what passes for objective reporting these days, hence the reference to Right Wing News ....
oops, I mean Fox News. :D


Anyone (including A&S and/or GDF) can certianly bring a lawsuit or two against eurodressage for a misquote or misrepresentation, so we will see on the accuracy of the report...

So if they do not sue eurodressage, that proves ... something?

fiona
Nov. 27, 2006, 04:49 PM
If you dont like what they do, and there a pages and pages of that, then lets do the same. Lets see horses trained in other ways so we can make a comparison.
Only fair?
So far, a few names have been thrown in, but nothing more.


Off the top of my head - recently

Hubertus Schmidt at this years Global Forum will be doing the same BD conference next year.
Kyra Kyrklund at last years Global Forum and often doing demos in UK
Klaus Balkenhol (with Gerd Heuschmann) - let's be honest appearing at an arena near you any minute now where ever you live!
Spanish Riding School - currently touring and offering a clinic before the performance showing how they train.


So Nero which bit of that question asked for "classical"? I cited horses trained in other ways than A&S.


I was laughing at the response - is one not allowed to have a chuckle at a misguided opinion these days.
yes, you are but only if you can read.


I wasn't being personally affronting to anyone directly or specifically
not entirely true, is it?

nero
Nov. 27, 2006, 06:45 PM
So Nero which bit of that question asked for "classical"? I cited horses trained in other ways than A&S.


yes, you are but only if you can read.


not entirely true, is it?

Wha? Not sure what your problem is with me fiona, you seem to follow me around on the other smaller forum too that we both used to be on and here just to pick fights, I must have offended you somewhere back but can't remember where, so whatever I did sorry - strange thing is I always thought your posts were great and I think I even said so on ocassion, so am a bit confused. Your tone is pretty mean so I must have made a big clanger!!! Whoops!!! :-)

Anyway I believe on the other forum someone called for example of classically trained horses winning and my first post on this thread was a comment on that, nothing to do with your post - that you changed your response to any non AVG or rk'd horses was not what I was talking about. In fact, sorry to be blunt, but since you've seemed to have a bee in your bonnet with me for a while I don't even read your posts anymore. So I could not have been referring to yours. But since you ask, well I'm not sure what horses KB trains these days, the US horses??? Elvis?? I do not know how he is trained, but I know Nadine has ridden horses deep, even under KB's tutelage, I've seen her. KK trains deep at times and the SRS well I don't have a barometer for any of those horses in competiton because they don't compete, and as good as HS is according to those who know him and watch him train - I've only ever seen him compete, I don't think his competiton horses are in the same league as the rk's horses. So these are non rk's horses doing well BUT that wasn't what I was saying.

As for the rest of your post, well I'm not sure what you are saying, but, um..... OK, whatever you say. I'm happy to ignore you and have for a while, if I pee you off so much, which clearly I do, maybe jus ignore me too, might make you happier!! lol

Its a funny old world isn't it!!

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 27, 2006, 10:06 PM
I would also be very interested in more examples of truly classically trained top horses. With that I mean horses in the top 20.... HS is a great rider, trainer and classical example- but he has never had a horse that was a true winner. It remains to be seen if he succeeds in buying Fuerst Fabio, if he can produce true classical brilliance- as the horse has fantastic paces and can certainly stand up to Briar, Sal and Company!

Since when is the true measure of correctness the show ring? If one looks at the Quarter Horse industry, for example, the judges rewarded massive bodies with tea cup feet in the conformation classes. (Lest anyone jump on me for being a QH "hater," I've owned QHs and will always have a soft spot for them. I just have a problem with the direction the breeding is going. Why? Because the judges are rewarding it...) Many people, including some judges I've spoken to, have issues with what is being rewarded in the dressage show ring versus what is classically correct.

nero
Nov. 27, 2006, 10:24 PM
Since when is the true measure of correctness the show ring? I don't believe Sabine was asking that though? She asked what classically trained horses are matching it with the 'others' currently in competition. She didn't bring the words 'correctness' into it. That was you, so not really fair to quote Sabine then twist her question around.

Sabine
Nov. 28, 2006, 12:11 AM
Since when is the true measure of correctness the show ring? If one looks at the Quarter Horse industry, for example, the judges rewarded massive bodies with tea cup feet in the conformation classes. (Lest anyone jump on me for being a QH "hater," I've owned QHs and will always have a soft spot for them. I just have a problem with the direction the breeding is going. Why? Because the judges are rewarding it...) Many people, including some judges I've spoken to, have issues with what is being rewarded in the dressage show ring versus what is classically correct.

The true measure SHOULD be the showring. This is what we pay our fees for- it is the culmination of all the rules and the governing bodies and the whole establishment. I really don't give a toot about QH and don't know anything much about that (nor does it interest me) - but I have invested significant time and $$ in dressage and I think I understand the principles, rules and goals.
Therefore I stand by my statement. I think the lack of brilliance that some of the nicely, more traditionally trained horses show is why they are not placed high enough- brilliance or the 'on the boarder of explosiveness brilliance' where you as the observer are sitting on the edge of your seat and loving every minute of it combined with absolute obedient carrying out of each movement- is what is scored higher- than pleasant - yet relatively boring performances.

I know you like to sound like sour grapes- but that is what is happening every day now- and it doesn't seem to be changing...:)

Editted to add: None of this btw has anything to do with RK- just with brilliance in the showring- or riding the horse on the edge. Try doing that with an up and open horse all the time- and you'll be hanging from the nearest tree soon....there is a reason for the madness...LOL!

Gaia
Nov. 28, 2006, 01:17 AM
Sabine - I think that is exactly "IT" - Hitting the nail on the head:

"brilliance in the showring- or riding the horse on the edge. Try doing that with an up and open horse all the time- and you'll be hanging from the nearest tree soon....there is a reason for the madness...LOL!" (from Sabines post)

And the reason that we talk about two kinds of dressage. To have a horse brilliant AND up and open all the time - still riding it and NOT dangling from a branch... that would be dressage indeed!

Sabine
Nov. 28, 2006, 01:25 AM
LOL!!! I am trying dear- but as I get older- I am thinking how many weeks will it take me to heal and so when I feel him get tense- I put him deep and voila- movement is great, connection is real- not 'ducking BTV' and peace is back- while still keeping him extremely forward (doesn't mean fast- just means sharp).....oh yes- riding good dressage is definitely very hard.

Tonja
Nov. 28, 2006, 10:05 AM
The true measure of classical training is not in the show ring with the way dressage is being judged today. The objective of the classical art is to recreate and preserve the balance, joy and beauty that the horse expresses in nature – calm engagement in balanced harmony developed to the ultimate level of refinement. To insure the calm, resting quality in the work, emphasis is placed on how pleasurable of an experience can be created for the horse. The experience must be so enjoyable for the horse that he performs to its fullest, willingly and with enthusiasm in response to the most subtle of aids. This style of training does not attract masses of thrill seekers who want to see horses ridden ‘on the edge’ of losing their minds. In order to attract that kind of crowd, dressage competition appears to have let go of some of its most fundamental principles. Today, dressage competition seems to be less about calm engagement in balanced harmony and more about mass marketing, publicity, flash, gaining more sponsors, attracting bigger audiences and making more money. I think that’s why the quality of the work we see in the show ring today doesn’t hold a candle to the work of Meixner, Handler, Watjen and the like.

siegi b.
Nov. 28, 2006, 10:34 AM
Tonja, I hate to get in the middle of this but your response is so far out there that I just had to...
Do you actually believe what you're writing? I mean a statement like "To insure the calm, resting quality in the work, emphasis is placed on how pleasurable of an experience can be created for the horse." makes me think that you've never, ever ridden a high-level dressage horse, classically trained or not. Even if the SRS is your ideal fo classical dressage, do you really see a "calm and resting quality in the work" when those Lippizaner perform airs above the ground? Have you ever heard of ENERGY?

Your description of what dressage is supposed to be like (in your opinion) makes me think of the hippies in the 60's, strung out on marijuana..... They certainly were calm, relaxed and I'm sure they described their state as a pleasurable experience. :-) As I said girl, far out, far out......

Tonja
Nov. 28, 2006, 10:55 AM
Tonja, I hate to get in the middle of this but your response is so far out there that I just had to...
Do you actually believe what you're writing? I mean a statement like "To insure the calm, resting quality in the work, emphasis is placed on how pleasurable of an experience can be created for the horse." makes me think that you've never, ever ridden a high-level dressage horse, classically trained or not. Even if the SRS is your ideal fo classical dressage, do you really see a "calm and resting quality in the work" when those Lippizaner perform airs above the ground? Have you ever heard of ENERGY?

Your description of what dressage is supposed to be like (in your opinion) makes me think of the hippies in the 60's, strung out on marijuana..... They certainly were calm, relaxed and I'm sure they described their state as a pleasurable experience. :-) As I said girl, far out, far out......

siegi b.,

I believe every word of what I said and yes, I can train all of the GP movements.

I also said, “The experience must be so enjoyable for the horse that he performs to its fullest, willingly and with enthusiasm in response to the most subtle of aids.”

Look at the work of Handler, Watjen, Meixner – especially Meixner. The horses are CALM, QUIET, FOCUSED – yet channeling maximum energy into the most powerful leaps - just as in ballet. Calm engagement in balanced harmony is the hallmark of classical work.

Hysterical energy makes movements sloppy and detracts from their beauty.

Dalfan
Nov. 28, 2006, 12:19 PM
I mean a statement like "To insure the calm, resting quality in the work, emphasis is placed on how pleasurable of an experience can be created for the horse." makes me think that you've never, ever ridden a high-level dressage horse, classically trained or not.

I would definitely want to see a horse like this rather than one so "brilliant/insane" he is ready to bolt out the arena.

For those who think/ride/train RK/HF; What do you see/feel/think when you see a horse in RK? Surely you can't think in any way this is a pretty picture. There are plenty of pics out there to look at. Or is it the "whatever works to win" mantra you go by?

Correct dressage is NOT supposed to have the horse on the verge of insanity.

Somehow "calm, forward and straight" has been lost in the RUSH to get results. So sad. For the horse.

slc2
Nov. 28, 2006, 12:48 PM
it depends on how 'far out' it is, seigi.

much of the time, lower level riders look at upper level performances and think the horses are too excited or too tense, this is nothing new; it's been going on for the entire time i've been interested in dressage - many decades.

it's a very common observation from lower level riders and always has been. they'll look at a quieter performance and prefer that, even if the horse is lacking impulsion or even if it has many incorrect points in its performance.

especially if a horse shows a couple excited moments during the test, they will tend to slaughter it and see everything it does in the test as bad. they will also tend to slaughter a horse that they saw on some other occasion get excited during a test, and continue to downgrade everything it does for every time after that. this can go on for years.

it is true that a horse should so 'relaxation' during a dressage test, but from there, the meaning of the word 'relaxation' is often totally misunderstood. the horse isn't supposed to be plopping around like it is sedated with a loop in the reins. the 'relaxation' refers to the muscles, which should be playing through their full range of motion, allowing contact, allowing suppleness, but most of all, allowing the full motion of the animals joints.

people can't see that. they see what they want to see. they are misled by things they think are important and don't 'insee' as Rilke would call it.

good dressage judges, in fact, do not slaughter the score of a horse who has an occasional 'moment' during a test, and this has also been the case for many, many years and is nothing new. these are viewed as instinctive reactions and are completely expected in such an animal. if it happens repeatedly and it affects the general performance it is another issue. but most of the time, people misunderstand what these things mean and how they are judged. this is not a lady's hunter hack under saddle class. it is very different. it is far better to have too much energy than too little. it is far better to have some excitement and show ability, than to go around with a deadly regular rhythm and no energy or power.

what do horses like? horses, when they are loose playing, don't act sedated. they don't act sedated at all. they act ridiculous, in fact. they prance around, f*rt, take off and act like fools. they pretend to be afraid of things and they over react to sounds and they rip around like idiots. they take great joy in the full range of motion of their bodies and their power, and they show off to each other what they can do.

dressage training is about developing and creating more and more power, energy and purity of gait in the performance. it is not about being sedate, sedated, or 'relaxed', not in the usual sense that people think of the word.

Tonja
Nov. 28, 2006, 01:53 PM
scl2 wrote:

it is far better to have too much energy than too little.
I disagree. It is far better to have too little energy than too much because the rider can ALWAYS ask for more energy until the desired level is reached, but once the horse has been pushed over the top, the moment is lost and the performance is marred by tension.

Only through thorough relaxation – the absence of tension in the horse’s mind and body – can a rider get the extreme deep bending engagement that can be seen in classical work. Because the horse is relaxed in its mind, its muscles can relax and the horse can sink more deeply into engagement. The energy is channeled efficiently into balance and lift, without wastage. That’s one of the reasons why the classical work I mentioned earlier is so much more engaged and balanced than the work we see in competition today.

Sabine
Nov. 28, 2006, 02:06 PM
Oh dear- what a hornet's nest....

It's quite interesting to read the responses- as I was sure there would be quite a few...:)

I share Siegi's reaction to Tonya's post as well...it's really a tad out there- to say the least and quoting Meixner and Watjen as the goal of competitive riding- welll....I really can't even comment on that one.


However interesting I found - that Tonya and Dalfan prefer to interpret riding a horse on the edge, or sharp on the aids- as being hysterical, hyper giving the impression that the horse has been driven into near insanity by the overly competitive, hard core dressage ueber-achiever, that only wants to win...LOL!

To me- this is a sport- not a romantic endeavour- like reading Poetry or sitting at the side of a pictoresque pond painting on an easle...this is something for physically fit, intuitive- yet fearless and capable riders...

I guess since our views vary so vastly at this basic level- no wonder everything beyond is even further apart.

ClaraLuisa
Nov. 28, 2006, 02:29 PM
Well, the last exchanges have been very illuminating for me, anyway, in clarifying WHY there seems to be such an unbridgeable gulf between the "schools" here. (Thanks slc, especially, that was a most helpful post.)

Just start with the definitions of "relaxation" and "brilliance"...everything else then seems to follow, for both groups.

Actually-- and here I must reveal the depths of my ignorance-- IS there an "official" definition of either term to which both camps would subscribe? If not, how close could we come to succinct definitions (both "classical" and "HF"), for purposes of comparison?

Tonja
Nov. 28, 2006, 02:30 PM
Sabine wrote:

To me- this is a sport-

Yes, but they call this sport ‘dressage’, so it should at least adhere to the fundamental principles that define dressage. If they don’t want to adhere to the fundamental principles then the sport becomes nothing more than a parody on dressage and ought to be called something more appropriate like perhaps ‘Equestrian Freestyle’. IMHO.

slc2
Nov. 28, 2006, 03:15 PM
there's sort of a place that you've gotten yourself to, isn't there?

i call it 'Tonia', like narnia.

Dalfan
Nov. 28, 2006, 05:18 PM
that Tonya and Dalfan prefer to interpret riding a horse on the edge, or sharp on the aids- as being hysterical, hyper giving the impression that the horse has been driven into near insanity by the overly competitive

You miss the point again. I prefer a horse that is forward, sharp on the aids and with "energy". When I look at RKed horses I see the edge of "insanity" in their eyes. You have totally gotten the two mixed up. There is a big difference to a horse that is forward, on the aids, but relaxed and confident to one who looks like the Rk/HF horse, gaping mouth, neck in a pretzel, eyes bulging. Big difference.

Too assume I prefer some lazy, slog of a beast is quite presumptious on your part. Oh well.

Btw; the chestnut in my pics, the 24 yearr old horse I leased for 2 years, hhas quite a bit of energy and could bolt with the best of them, on quite a few occasions. Luckily on stayed on.

Sabine
Nov. 28, 2006, 06:04 PM
You miss the point again. I prefer a horse that is forward, sharp on the aids and with "energy". When I look at RKed horses I see the edge of "insanity" in their eyes. You have totally gotten the two mixed up. There is a big difference to a horse that is forward, on the aids, but relaxed and confident to one who looks like the Rk/HF horse, gaping mouth, neck in a pretzel, eyes bulging. Big difference.

Too assume I prefer some lazy, slog of a beast is quite presumptious on your part. Oh well.

Btw; the chestnut in my pics, the 24 yearr old horse I leased for 2 years, hhas quite a bit of energy and could bolt with the best of them, on quite a few occasions. Luckily on stayed on.

OK- then you are DIFFERENT than Tanya.
Fine with me. Not sure where you get the eyes bulging, neck in a pretzel thingie- probably from the lovely pictures that Karoline posted on UDBB- but those just have to be around...they will never leave and sadly impress most of the unknowing as the standard for RK.

Mind you- that is not my idea of RK- nor what I have seen from those that practice a 'form' of RK...surely milder than what Sjef wants.

Horsedances
Nov. 28, 2006, 06:45 PM
Don't you all get tired of these kind of discussions ?

It's a Yes and No discussion between people who have been around the block many times, and people who probably never ever rode a horse, but recieved their devine wisdom from the books and video's of the ODG's.

Let's face the fact that horses are always very happy when they are not asked to do more than they are willing to offer that day :D

Theo

Dalfan
Nov. 28, 2006, 07:10 PM
Not sure where you get the eyes bulging, neck in a pretzel thingie- probably from the lovely pictures that Karoline posted on UDBB- but those just have to be around...they will never leave and sadly impress most of the unknowing as the standard for RK.

I'm not sure what the site was, the most obvious one i guess, but I have also seen quite a bit of video. I think it was one with AvG warming up, and every D**M horse in the ring was being HF'ed. Gross.

"Mild" is not a term I would associate with Sjef's training methods.

Tonja
Nov. 28, 2006, 08:36 PM
Dalfan wrote:

You miss the point again. I prefer a horse that is forward, sharp on the aids and with "energy". When I look at RKed horses I see the edge of "insanity" in their eyes. You have totally gotten the two mixed up. There is a big difference to a horse that is forward, on the aids, but relaxed and confident to one who looks like the Rk/HF horse, gaping mouth, neck in a pretzel, eyes bulging. Big difference.

I agree.

indyblue
Nov. 28, 2006, 08:54 PM
Dalfan.Your comment about your old horse bolting makes me hope you wern't one of the people slamming Anky for her & Salineros mishap.

Dalfan
Nov. 28, 2006, 09:10 PM
Dalfan.Your comment about your old horse bolting makes me hope you wern't one of the people slamming Anky for her & Salineros mishap.

No. He usually would use the excuse to bolt from such things as ice falling from the roof, other horses outside the arena, or a well-timed bird flying in through the window, or one time he just decided to play with me on his back :lol:. He's a bugger, but also just like any horse. Capable of doing such things every now and again.

No, I did not participate in that thread. Although I might be inclined to associate that "mishap" with being RK'ed, but I won't.:D

indyblue
Nov. 28, 2006, 11:10 PM
So if your maybe inclined to associate bolting with RK, what has gone wrong with your training program to cause your horse to bolt on several occasions? How would your bolting horse hold up in an arena with thousands of horses?Im thinking its got nothing to do with with you and is just your horses flight instinct taking over as you look like a competant rider.Some shy, some bolt,some rear.Pick your poison.No I dont like those photos posted but I dont think we can blame every little thing that goes wrong with a RK trained horse on RK.

Dalfan
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:29 AM
No I dont like those photos posted but I dont think we can blame every little thing that goes wrong with a RK trained horse on RK.

I would agree with you there. However, My guy CAN get a 10 halt, and we can stay that way for more than a nanosecond. :winkgrin: :lol:

Besides, his occasional escapades aren't the result of training (ie restriction RK/HF), he's just reminding me that for a 23 year old schoolmaster he still has a lot of life in him. Only one time did I NOT give him the benefit of the doubt that something frightened him. The other times just got him under control and continued on our way.

Sabine
Nov. 29, 2006, 12:53 AM
I would agree with you there. However, My guy CAN get a 10 halt, and we can stay that way for more than a nanosecond. :winkgrin: :lol:

.

Haha- good for you then- the halt is really where it's at. Well you know- different strokes for different folks...me thinks that the horse that bolts is insecure- i happen to have one of those and it's not fun- but the more we connect and he trusts - the less this happens. Thinking of Sal and how he was sold around quite a bit in his youth- he would be the equivalent of a Foster Child- so there- if you can't connect solidly early on- you find other ways to express your fears...that is normal- humans do it all the time. It just shows that he is a very intelligent and deep animal and what happened at Aachen was a tad too much for him- and also- as a 3 time mother- with several miscarriages- I can relate to Anky feeling maybe a tad worried that things would go alright- since having her first baby was really hard- and she now knows that it takes a lot of peace and quiet to have a healthy baby...when the rider stops being the leader- even for a second that can unleash the power...and we all know (being that this board is predominantly female) how much them hormones can mess us up...:)

So there- the bolt had nothing to do with RK!!!

indyblue
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:46 AM
Dalfan.Dont you think thats putting way too much human emotion to think that hes "reminding you that hes still got alot of life left in him".How did you come up with that.Did Bill Northern give him a call and relay that to you? Maybe hes saying "Im way to old for this crap & your driving me nuts with your nagging so get off" Sorry that sounds bitchy but I think your being very hypocritical.Have you seen Anky work horses in real life ?I have and I liked what I saw and Im the first to scream foul when I see any sort of animal cruelty.

nero
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:47 AM
So there- the bolt had nothing to do with RK!!!

Of course it doesn't. But S you know, if Sal has any flaws it is of course because of RK to some people, if he had a strange whinny it would be because of rk, if he had a biting problem it would be because of rk, jeez the horse's poo was blue and it would be because he is rk'd!

I wonder how people explain away non-rk'd horse's flaws. Or are classically trained horses all perfect? ;-)

nero
Nov. 29, 2006, 01:49 AM
Have you seen Anky work horses in real life ?I have and I liked what I saw and Im the first to scream foul when I see any sort of animal cruelty.

Ditto, of all the international riders and trainers I've seen she is one that has the most obvious compassion and affection for her horses.

indyblue
Nov. 29, 2006, 02:37 AM
Of course it doesn't. But S you know, if Sal has any flaws it is of course because of RK to some people, if he had a strange whinny it would be because of rk, if he had a biting problem it would be because of rk, jeez the horse's poo was blue and it would be because he is rk'd!

I wonder how people explain away non-rk'd horse's flaws. Or are classically trained horses all perfect? ;-)

Well exactly Nero and thats why Im asking Dalfan to explain her horses bolting problem.Not that she has to but I just find it interesting that someone who can criticise a persons training method has similar problems of her own.I too can pull off a good halt but thats usually because my horse has fallen asleep. A person I know went to stay at a classical trainers farm in Australia (the clinician clinics in Usa & Canada and Ive seen her discussed on Coth like a God.She trained with Nuno etc etc) .This person came home from the classical clinicians farm in disgust due to training methods used on the farm which were a far cry from classical and what this woman preaches at her clinics.Nothing is what it seems.

Tonja
Nov. 29, 2006, 07:53 AM
indyblue wrote:

No I dont like those photos posted but I dont think we can blame every little thing that goes wrong with a RK trained horse on RK.

I don’t attribute every flaw to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke but I do think a significant amount of the imbalance, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and lack of engagement that we see in the warm up arena and the competition performances can be attributed to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke.

Dalfan
Nov. 29, 2006, 08:28 AM
Dont you think thats putting way too much human emotion to think that hes "reminding you that hes still got alot of life left in him".

No. He has a unique PERSONALITY. Like most horses. Who the heck is Bill Northern??


Maybe hes saying "Im way to old for this crap & your driving me nuts with your nagging so get off" Sorry that sounds bitchy but I think your being very hypocritical.

Now, I might agree with you that it would be rider error/nagging, IF these episodes would have been commonplace while I was riding him. But, in the 2 years I leased him, happened maybe half a dozen times, ALL but one related to external reasons (ie snow falling from roof, bird in window, etc, etc, etc). One can usually tell if a horse is trying to escape his rider due to nagging, pulling the mouth, bouncing on the back, or giving conflicting aids such as kicking "to go" while hanging on the mouth. Besides, I don't nag.:winkgrin: Adding; This boy LOVES to work and he is a showoff. He KNOWS when he is being watched.

Edited to add; As a rider, one should be able to differentiate those behaviors from the horse that should be ignored, or those that need a correction. Shying/spooking/mini-bolting from something that scared the horse need to be ignored (iow, get it under control and carry on, don't make a big deal of it - he gets his confidence from the rider, afterall). The ONE AND ONLY TIME he decided to play (you can tell the difference) with me on his back, he was corrected and we ended up having a really nice ride. He was quite contrite.

Also, I'm not talking about the kind of "bolt" AvG had with Sal. Not the "run for the hills", uncontrollable, unstoppable bolt we see in the video. I should have been clearer there, sorry.

Although I have seen a horse really BOLT from trying to get away from the restriction/pressure of RK?HF'esque training. That was a very scary thing to see, and it did look quite similar to "the bolt" of Sal. But I would give that "bolt" (of Sal) the benefit of the doubt, unless it was something that occurred all the time.


Not that she has to but I just find it interesting that someone who can criticise a persons training method has similar problems of her own.I too can pull off a good halt but thats usually because my horse has fallen asleep.

I wouldn't consider it a problem in training at all. Just something that any horse is capable of, IF SCARED, which he was in all but one instance. If you think a good halt relates to a horse that has "fallen asleep", I am not surprised then by your "approval" of RK/HF. Sorry.



Have you seen Anky work horses in real life ?I have and I liked what I saw and Im the first to scream foul when I see any sort of animal cruelty

In video, yes. I did not like it. But to each his own. I do wonder how many have not made it through their "program". How many naturally gifted horses are sent to them and are deemed "not suitable" for dressage after being subjected to their methods for a time. I have seen this happen as well in my world. Pushed mentally/physically beyond what the horse can handle.

slc2
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:19 PM
dalfan if your horse bolts when there is a noise you don't have him on the aids you dont have a conneciton and you don't have effective aids, and maybe it would be better to not criticize other peoples riding and training so much if you have an elderly horse you lease and you can't keep him from bolting.

Dalfan
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:31 PM
dalfan if your horse bolts when there is a noise you don't have him on the aids you dont have a conneciton and you don't have effective aids, and maybe it would be better to not criticize other peoples riding and training so much if you have an elderly horse you lease and you can't keep him from bolting.

Nice try. But I think not. I think I already mentioned that when my guy "bolted", it was not like a Sal "bolt". More like a prop, spin, buck and haul buns in the opposite direction in the span of about 2 seconds. He is cat-like. So, no not quite a bolt. And I was otherwise occupied trying to stay aboard. And not just any noise, more like a sonic boom kinda of noise. Heck, it startled me, don't see why it wouldn't startle him. And the time he played with me, yes, I will agree with you there, he was not on the aids.

Btw, I suppose you've never had a horse "bolt" on you. If you have, perhaps you should take your own advice and not critcize other peoples riding and training either, hmmm.

indyblue
Nov. 29, 2006, 04:51 PM
Dalfan I think you are completly missing the point that is trying to be made to you.For your info I have 3x horses (owned 1x 11yrs, 1x 8yrs, 1x 2yrs) and not a bolt in all that time between them but then I havent competed in a stadium with 60,000 people.One question you didnt answer of mine is how your bolter would react in a stadium situation when 60,000 people applauded you all at the same time.Im guessing he would freak and you would be scared (especially if you were 3 mnths pregnant) and would be most upset to then be told his reaction was because of your useless training.

Dalfan
Nov. 29, 2006, 05:43 PM
This thread isn't about me, it's about the GDF. What turned it about me was my response to someone who said we(me and someone) else were only interested in lifeless slugs with no energy (paraphrasing here) or some such nonsense. I was just pointing out that my leased horse has plenty of energy. That's all. MY point was that ANY horse can shy, spook, bolt. So, I am not really disagreeing with you that Sal bolted because of RK/HF.

And to your question about how he would react to a stadium full of 60,000 screaming fans. Who knows?:D But I sure would like it.:lol: :winkgrin:

nero
Nov. 29, 2006, 06:18 PM
indyblue wrote:


I don’t attribute every flaw to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke but I do think a significant amount of the imbalance, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and lack of engagement that we see in the warm up arena and the competition performances can be attributed to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke.

But how is that logically consistent when non rk'd horses display EXACTLY the same traits at times that you accuse horses like Salinero having. The anti rkers ALWAYS seem to ignore this question.

For every perceived flaw that Salinero has (FWIW I think those perceived flaws are blown waaay out of proportion, the horse has a much improved overtrack in ext trot, halts have improved, is so very 'through' his half passes are breathtaking and has a suppleness second to none) I could cite a classically trained or non rk trained horse with the EXACT same issue.

Touchstone Farm
Dec. 4, 2006, 10:57 PM
Ditto, of all the international riders and trainers I've seen she is one that has the most obvious compassion and affection for her horses.

I have no doubt she cares for her horses as do many, many international riders and trainers, but I don't think that is really the way to look at this issue or the GDF. She does seem like a nice person and is probably an awsome mom. Heck, I bet she even gives to charities too! But the issue here is really wrapped around how someone trains their horses...

Dalfan...I appreciate how you try to keep your sense of humor with some of the comments. I, for one, would be amused if I had an old schoolmaster who still had a bit of spunk in him -- and it would have nothing to do with zwankesjacke or classical training or whatever!

Tonja
Dec. 4, 2006, 11:32 PM
nero wrote:


Originally Posted by Tonja
I don’t attribute every flaw to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke but I do think a significant amount of the imbalance, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and lack of engagement that we see in the warm up arena and the competition performances can be attributed to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke.

But how is that logically consistent when non rk'd horses display EXACTLY the same traits at times that you accuse horses like Salinero having. The anti rkers ALWAYS seem to ignore this question.

For every perceived flaw that Salinero has (FWIW I think those perceived flaws are blown waaay out of proportion, the horse has a much improved overtrack in ext trot, halts have improved, is so very 'through' his half passes are breathtaking and has a suppleness second to none) I could cite a classically trained or non rk trained horse with the EXACT same issue.

You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.

canyonoak
Dec. 5, 2006, 12:02 AM
<< You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.>>


The only problem with the sentence above is that all REAL horses fall out of balance sometimes.

No matter how they are trained.
No matter who is sitting on them.

The concept that any rider who has put in the hours to reach international FEI level does NOT understand that the twin basics of rhythm and balance are the foundation ..well such a concept is seriously flawed.

in the real world, of course.

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 10:10 AM
there was a really good video thread not that long ago, comparing AvG and Reiner Klimke -- the difference in tension and balance. I think probably both videos are still available on youtube.com

Some of these comments are word games, what is the amount of tension and if it's suitable or incorrect. Same thing with a horse falling out of balance. A video helps clarify.

MP: way back when on this thread you had a problem with me supporting the "biased" reporting of eurodressage. I referenced a direct quote as well as what someone reportedly said in a eurodressage article. Can there be a bias on a direct quote? Or is the bias problem you have more that the quote actually made it into print? Either way, I stand by my comment if it was not correctly quoted, or if words that were not said were reported, then eurodressage will be sued. Sued for big bucks -- someone can retire on it!!

Also, just asking: any videos available on any of the demos at GDF? Even if they are pay-per-view? For educational purposes, which is what GDF is all about... Or do we have only still shots available?

Tonja
Dec. 5, 2006, 10:32 AM
canyonoak wrote:


<< You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.>>


The only problem with the sentence above is that all REAL horses fall out of balance sometimes.

No matter how they are trained.
No matter who is sitting on them.

Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.

canyonoak
Dec. 5, 2006, 10:45 AM
<< Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.>>

Yes. That is why Salinero consistently scores high.

because most of his work is produced in a balance that the O judges can see and appreciate.

Ditto other horses getting high marks .

Of course, if one STARTS with the concept that the judges are blind, prejudiced, know nothing, are corrupt--then all this conveniently goes out the window.

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 10:57 AM
oh lordy, not judging :)

Here's some results from 2006 GDF. MP, I'll give eurodressage a rest and reference http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news.cfm?news_id=115

"FEI Dressage Committee chairman Mariette Withages reviewed the judging of the 2006 World Games. The grand prix special tests of Mexico’s Bernadette Pujals, Denmark’s Andreas Helgstrand and Germany’s Isabell Werth were analysed, which raised many points of discussion, with the audience not always agreeing with the judges, despite explanations from the relevant judges."

There was also a discussion at 2006 GDF if Brentina got the points she deserved or if she was unsound at the time and rated too high. That charge leveled by a journalist. Discussion was inconclusive, "The American delegation of spectators and journalists at the forum did not agree with the journalist’s standpoint, but international riders such as Kyra Kyrklund and Anky van Grunsven applauded her comment." Hey there MP, here's the source: http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06gdf/rep6.html

Tonja
Dec. 5, 2006, 11:04 AM
canyonoak wrote:


<< Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.>>

Yes. That is why Salinero consistently scores high.

because most of his work is produced in a balance that the O judges can see and appreciate.

Ditto other horses getting high marks .

Of course, if one STARTS with the concept that the judges are blind, prejudiced, know nothing, are corrupt--then all this conveniently goes out the window.
You can go by the judge’s scores, if you like. I go by the degree of balance I see in the performance. To each his own.

mp
Dec. 5, 2006, 11:38 AM
MP: way back when on this thread you had a problem with me supporting the "biased" reporting of eurodressage. I referenced a direct quote as well as what someone reportedly said in a eurodressage article. Can there be a bias on a direct quote? Or is the bias problem you have more that the quote actually made it into print?

My problem is not with eurodressage, what kind of reporting you support or whatever quote you're referring to. You implied that professional journalist = lack of bias. That simply is not true.

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 11:57 AM
hi MP, well you did create way too many wrong assumptions about me in your post 392.

If I wanted to write all professional journalists are unbiased, I would have... LOL.

mp
Dec. 5, 2006, 12:26 PM
hi MP, well you did create way too many wrong assumptions about me in your post 392.

If I wanted to write all professional journalists are unbiased, I would have... LOL.
No, you didn't write it. You but you did imply it.


an article for eurodressage is professionally written. cleared legal, and not the same as simply 'as one person's perspective.

And I didn't "create" any assumptions in my post. I asked you questions
Are you investigating the marketing claims because you might want to attend next year? Or are you going for the Ralph Nader Award for consumer protection in dressage forums?
that you didn't bother to answer. And since you feel that anyone associated with the GDF should hop right to it and answer yours, I find rather hypocritical.

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 02:25 PM
MP, you asked me questions based on your assumptions. They certianly weren't questions based on logic. Had you read an earlier post of mine, you would know exactly where I was coming from, so I did already answer your questions:

- on post 325 you have your answer
- and you posted on 327, so you missed my answer?

Again, you're assuming a lot and reaching for conclusions not based in fact. Just try to read what I wrote without adding your spin.

And based on above 446 and your response, "You but you did imply it, " you conclude I feel all professional journalists are unbiased?? Just try to read what I wrote without adding your spin.

Dalfan
Dec. 5, 2006, 02:39 PM
Have any of you seen the warmup video of Dutch Championships 2004 (sorry, corrected) (titled hyperflexion) posted on UDBB? What do you think, for those who think there is nothing wrong with RK/HF?

My opinion; That's got to be some of the ugliest riding I've seen in a while. Just F***king GROSS.

Here's the link, although not sure if it will workhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw&mode=related&search=

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 02:43 PM
LOL, not another one. I'm afraid to look at it if it's that gross...

mp
Dec. 5, 2006, 02:57 PM
And based on above 446 and your response, "You but you did imply it, " you conclude I feel all professional journalists are unbiased??

No, I meant you implied a professional journalist's writings are somehow less biased "than one person's perspective," which is puzzling because that's what a journalistic account is.

Helpful hint -- "yes" or "no" is a good way to answer questions.

sm
Dec. 5, 2006, 03:03 PM
" 'yes' or 'no' is a good way to answer questions."

Well, maybe you wouldn't distort and put your spin on my "yes" or "no" answer :) but I wouldn't put money on it :)

STF
Dec. 5, 2006, 03:29 PM
The Monty Roberts deal is the only thing that errks me!
I guess that is all his years of dressage expert work that leads him to make the assumstions he does.

Kareen
Dec. 5, 2006, 03:34 PM
I find it very sad the GDF is making such a joke of itself. People used to agree Dressage was all about subtle communication between horse and rider. Means to result in an ideal picture where aids are applied as lightly as to be near invisible.
Let me just say that this ideal picture got lost somewhere between the old days and now and all of a sudden it's those who remind of what was once considered desirable who are accused of creating a witch hunt... Very sad for the sport that it has so little to do with what riding is about these days.
I mean how much more incommunicado can a horse and rider pair get than what broke out of poor Salinero during that revealing award ceremony?
As for him behaving super on the show grounds in hand - well no wonder he is at peace once he is finally released from his treadmill sentence *LOL*
Funnily the eventer guys don't seem to be half as troubled during award ceremonies at any level. Must be because the modern dressage horse is so rich in TB-blood much unlike those big old clunkers that do well during x-country courses and award ceremonies. Get real people. Today's competitive dressage is a mess no matter where you turn to.
And do you honestly think a horse like Chronos had a calmer temperament than Salinero to begin with???
As a vet, rider and breeder I can only spit out and turn away from what's called dressage these days.
Does it amaze me why natural horsemanship-gurus are popping up left right and center over the past years? No because if this is the level of communication achieved by a method someone has the chuzpe to refer to as training technique (?!) than it is no wonder that horselovers around the world are looking for alternatives.

It's too bad the manuals only kept the riding parts of the HDV12 and skipped all the rest that is about how to get the horse ready for the kind of work it is one day going to be asked for in the dressage ring.

Not taking off with your rider under any circumstances comes a few steps before doing a canter pirouette. So it again comes down to the 'modern training method' being merely an attempted shortcut to achieve what unfortunately requires years of hard work to truly grow.
Likewise a riding session doesn't start with rising trot but with getting your horse out and groom and tack up properly.

This entire route dressage has taken to me seems to be symptomatic of what goes on in the professional world: It is no longer fashionable to be an honest solid worker type and learn a craft. Today any idiot wants to either have a top-management position (and expects it!) or at least be a call-center agent vs. physically working. I think this development began back when Nicole Uphoff became the youngest olympic dressage champion ever and was celebrated as if she had re-invented the wheel for being just what - young?? How much of a craze is that... And yes the equestrian media is a big part of it I agree.

Two things to consider: Equestrians are becoming more and more estranged from the general public by constantly showing off this kind of I-know-better-than-you attitude. Here in Europe the equestrian community is still fairly well integrated into public. Non-riding people come to watch even smaller shows and our riding, breeding and sales events are social happenings politicians are making sure to be seen at because many symphathize with the equestrian world.
I don't feel you have this level of integration in the US and I'd rather see that change than us Europeans losing the credit we have with the public. Part of my approach to avoiding this is to make very sure I make sense to non-equestrian folks in the way I ride and handle my horses and to be very open and communicative towards anybody who comes with questions.
Anyone who thinks it is beyond themselves to answer a question they consider ignorant or rude is no less ignorant or rude themselves in my way of thinking and doesn't serve any discussion but merely displays a great deal of arrogance.

egontoast
Dec. 5, 2006, 06:08 PM
tsktsktsk

Is it not also arrogant to pass judgement from on high?

slc2
Dec. 5, 2006, 06:33 PM
seriously, kareen, did yiou check this over with egon first?

mp
Dec. 5, 2006, 06:51 PM
Anyone who thinks it is beyond themselves to answer a question they consider ignorant or rude is no less ignorant or rude themselves in my way of thinking and doesn't serve any discussion but merely displays a great deal of arrogance.

:lol: Excellent point. :lol:

siegi b.
Dec. 5, 2006, 07:59 PM
Kareen,

you know what they say about opinions... right?
And it must get lonely up there where you think you are.....

Touchstone Farm
Dec. 5, 2006, 11:15 PM
Kareen,

you know what they say about opinions... right?
And it must get lonely up there where you think you are.....

Hmm...here we go again...attacking a person versus discussing the point made...

canyonoak
Dec. 6, 2006, 12:28 AM
If all of you want to play in your rollkur sandbox, please, please start a new thread.

Kareen
Dec. 6, 2006, 05:38 AM
Well I'd say the GDF is pretty much trying to officially get it leaglized so why start a new thread?
What's going on seriously reminds me of the bible tale of the dance around the golden calv. Much to the sense of 'if it is golden it must be good' *LOL*
I respect anybody's opinion and I thank Eurobreederstour for taking the time to give us what I found to be a balanced and honest report of what went on.
Anybody please do what you think is best but don't whine when you have to get used to competing in front of empty showgrounds, not getting any TV coverage etc.etc. :)

egontoast
Dec. 6, 2006, 07:21 AM
Anybody please do what you think is best but don't whine when you have to get used to competing in front of empty showgrounds, not getting any TV coverage etc.etc. :)

I don't believe that serious dressage trainers and riders are very focussed on that. Fortunately.

Are you really worried that the bleachers won't be full when you ride your test?:no: Some people just need the applause I guess.

fiona
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:06 AM
Kareen when i have time and if i can be bothered i will pick your post apart sentence by sentence and explain where you are in my opinion utterly wrong. Right now can i just say you really have no clue about riders in international competition or the general public that come to watch and it's really tiresome to have to re hash the whole anky/sal momentary loss of control thing.

eqipoize
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:21 AM
Anybody please do what you think is best but don't whine when you have to get used to competing in front of empty showgrounds, not getting any TV coverage etc.etc

Heck - what is there to 'get used to' about that - you have basically described the general situation at 99.99% of all dressage shows!!!!! And I don't mind one bit. While I would LOVE to expose more people to the joys of dressage, I am no longer certian that dressage show grounds are the place to do that. Too much of what is going on in the warm up requires too much explanation. And what goes on in the show ring is so redundant and simplistic that most people can't bear to watch for very long either. So, WHY are we So bloody worried about attracting an audience for dressage - just which among us is really going to benefit from these hoped for sponsors? Big prize money? Where??? More promotion? WHY?? So, I think we need to get back to our roots and remember dressage is about training - not spectators, and lets have our judging and our governing bodies make decisions based on the best training for the horses, and the riders. If someone wants to come watch, great, but they are NOT supposed to be the deciding factor in what is best for dressage - Are They???

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:43 AM
Right now can i just say you really have no clue about riders in international competition or the general public that come to watch and it's really tiresome to have to re hash the whole anky/sal momentary loss of control thing.

Well, let's not rehash the "loss of control" episode. Let's just hash the video I posted of the warm-up (or pre-warm-up) at the Dutch Championships.

As a member of the general public, watching that RK/HF warmup sickens me. This is something I would rather not see. This is so FUNDAMENTALLY INCORRECT, I just cannot see how knowledgable riders/horsemman/dressage people can see anything RIGHT here. Please, pro-RK/HF advocates, please tell me what is RIGHT about this "training/riding".

What do you see when you watch this? Harmony, lightness and a happy, relaxed horse?

canyonoak
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:52 AM
Klaus Balkenhol does not support rollkur. Neither does Hubertus Schmidt, Kyra Kyrklund, nor countless other presenters at various GDF meeting over the years.

If you want to perceive GDF as some kind of agenda-for-rollkur, that is your option.

If you want to watch Ulrike Thiel doctored-video over and over, well, that is also your option.

For $500 or so, anyone can buy a digital videocam that has shutter speed in excess of 2000/second.

They've made movies for years about reality, technology, and the doctoring of same.

Part of me knows that legitimizing posts by responding to them is a waste of time and air.

Part5 of me just could not stop my fingers on the keyboard.

sigh...

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:55 AM
If you want to watch Ulrike Thiel doctored-video over and over, well, that is also your option.

So you are saying the video is doctored? I could post other videos, but I have a feeling there would be SOMETHING wrong with those as well.

Are you also saying the riding in the video is not representative of RK/HF?

canyonoak
Dec. 6, 2006, 12:00 PM
<< Are you also saying the riding in the video is not representative of RK/HF? >>


Yes.

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 12:23 PM
Hmmm....how interesting. So you agree then that it is painful to watch? So this is NOT the way RK/HF (by AvG) is implemented? So, the video is doctored? How so? Doctored by whom?

I'll be back later - I'll see if I can find some others that is more representative of RK/HF. :lol:

I personally think it is a absolutely perfect example of HF.

canyonoak
Dec. 6, 2006, 01:17 PM
<< So you agree then that it is painful to watch? So this is NOT the way RK/HF (by AvG) is implemented? So, the video is doctored? How so? Doctored by whom?>>


No I do NOT agree that rollkur as a technique/tool is painful to watch.

It can be really painful to watch someone bounce around on their horse's back and mouth, it can be really painful to watch many riders.

Big deal.

I like dressage as a sport. You can like whatever you like.

As for the videos and the websites and the zealotry--I will not, not categorically be pulled into any debate on these topics. They have been done to death and then some.

believe whahtever you like. Your perceptions are not mine. I will not convince you, and you most definitely will not convince me.




GDF forever!

(raising flag, hurrah hurrah)

see how stupid that sounds?

cheers to all,

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 02:45 PM
No I do NOT agree that rollkur as a technique/tool is painful to watch.

But you say that the rider in this video is not demonstating RK/HF? You seem not to care for the picture it presents, though. Or perhaps you prefer the tender, kind way "they" describe their technique. Doesn't sound so bad then, does it. Quite a different story when viewing the "technique" in action, though.


It can be really painful to watch someone bounce around on their horse's back and mouth, it can be really painful to watch many riders.

Big deal

Nice try. But I wasn't referring to her bouncing on the mouth/back (but can you really be surprised when the horse is put in that posture). I was referring to the "technique", as you probably know.

I know, it's hard to defend such a practice when really seeing it being used.

Kareen
Dec. 6, 2006, 03:19 PM
It's sad if you think being considered a group of self-centered snobs that is tortureing horses is anyhow normal or desirable or even inevitable. Very sad. No idea where you are showing but I for sure think it's quite senseless to name a show a show if there is no audience and all you are doing is some form of masturb.... *LOL*
I for my part enjoy being part of a sport that is appreciated by the majority of people which I may say is (still...) the case where I live. Also as someone who makes a living with horses you I am looked at with admiration and respect here which I feel will fade away if we don't protect the sport from developing along the lines of figure skating. As a breeder I also find it very important to maintain our market which is difficult if more and more people are moving away from organized riding sports and towards individual tendences. This movement has gone on for a while already and was thoroughly researched by the Ypsos-Study in 2002 already. I don't imply this is caused by what has happened to dressage alone but it certainly is an enormous factor that just many people are appalled by it.

canyonoak
Dec. 6, 2006, 09:50 PM
<<But I wasn't referring to her bouncing on the mouth/back (but can you really be surprised when the horse is put in that posture). I was referring to the "technique", as you probably know.>>


I have already said on another thread that there are people on BBs who feel some kind of power/satisfaction at seeing their screen name next to a post.

I will not answer any more posts from you-I have put you on my Ignore List.

I am answering this one only to say--the above quote from Dalfan has nothing whatsoever to do with my original post.

As facts tend to get lost or distorted on this BB ,as in real life, just thought I would take a moment to make a statement of fract.

Touchstone Farm
Dec. 6, 2006, 10:54 PM
dalfan, you crack me up. Loved how your dry humor about the bouncing back/mouth...which I think (?) that canyonoak missed and took you literally.

Okay, back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:15 PM
I will not answer any more posts from you-I have put you on my Ignore List.

I know, I know. When you have vids out there really showing the happy picture that is RK/HF, I understand how hard it would be to defend the practice. The more people that see this type of "training", the better.

Dalfan
Dec. 6, 2006, 11:18 PM
Loved how your dry humor

So glad someone gets it! Thanks