John Lyons - dissappointment

[La Gringa]

I went to the Virginia Equine Extravaganza with high hopes for the John Lyons clinics/demonstrations they were having there, and I have to say
I was very un-impressed with the John Lyons demonstrations. I don't know if anyone else saw the Saturday afternoon session he did outside, but I was actually appalled at his un-professionalism and demeanor.

The horse Lyons was working with had a Full Cheek snaffle on that was not adjusted properly, and was hanging too low. As Mr Lyons was working with the horse on the ground, the full cheek slipped though the horses mouth and was stabbing the horse in the mouth, painfully. You could clearly see the horse being very uncomfortable, and John Lyons, didn't even notice. It took someone from the audience to point it out, and then even after that he just "brushed it off' as nothing, said it was a cheap bit and continued with the bit obviously hurting the horse's mouth for another 10-15 minutes. He finally then did adjust it.. but I really was annoyed with this. The poor mare.

He also made some rude comments to Jane Savorie when they were in the indoor arena, so much so that my friend, who is from Peru and was actually interested in hearing what the clinicians have to say, was really put off by John Lyon's demeanor. Does he normally do this?

I saw Clinton Anderson at the Dulles Expo last Spring, and I was much more impressed with him than with John Lyons. I was actually kind of disgusted with the clinic yesterday in Richmond, and really am not interested in anything else that Lyons has to say. I am actually dissappointed to say this too, because after what people have said about his trailer loading... I was interested in hearing his clinics. I wasn't the only one in the audience yesterday that thought it was strange how he handled this mare, with the bit hurting her in such a way. I just wonder why he wasn't more observant and didn't fix it as soon as the mare started flipping her head around.

Anyway, I guess that really left an impression in my head since it's the first time I have seen Lyons perform live. I think there are many other people out there doing a better job than he is now. Maybe he is just so famous and rich that I don't think he cares anymore? That's the impression I got. He also made a lot of "smart remarks" about and at the dressage riders at the clinic which I didn't care for.

Is this normal for him to do? He seemed to be pretty much uninterested in giving the clinics at all yesterday, at least that is the impression that I and my two friends got after watching this yesterday.

[MHJLittlefield]

Anybody can have a bad day, but when someone in the public eye has a bad day in public.... uh, oh.

John Lyons has made some very good contributions to the training and treatment of horses through his books, videos, seminars, clinics, etc. He's not perfect, or a magician. He's just a trainer, and human.

I'm sorry you didn't see him in his best light.

[Meadow36]

I Looooovvvvvvveeeee Clinton Anderson on RFD-TV .... I can't wait for Tuesday nights at 10PM (when his show airs). His horsemanship skills are truly universal, and he's not all hoity-toity like Parelli, yet he doesn't beat the horses either. Just a perfect blend of skills based on the horse's natural herd instincts.

As for Lyons, I used to be friendly with a Lyons trainer, and the full cheek snaffle set low is a normal thing for him. Maybe he didn't want to fix it right away because he was embarrassed? Y'know, play it off like it was okay to save face. I don't think that's a good excuse for abusing the mare but maybe it's an explaination. I can't say I'm all that impressed with the Lyon's stuff, maybe just some of the round pen work.

[ESG]

Jesus, how low was this full cheek, that he could pull it all the way through the horse's mouth? :eek: Is he that stupid, that he uses a bit that he doesn't know how to properly adjust? And where were the keepers on this full cheek? I can't imagine they were there, or it'd be nearly impossible to pull the bit through. Sounds like a cluster f**k to me. Poor horse. And poor people, who thought they were seeing an expert in action. :no:

Clinton Anderson is the real deal, IMO. John Lyons, Monty Roberts, and that reincarnation of PT Barnum, Pat Parelli? Not so much. More "nonexistent horsemanship" than "natural horsemanship" with the latter three. :no:

[Daydream Believer]

I third or fourth Clinton Anderson as the real deal. I saw him in Williamston, NC, this summer and he was fantastic. I use many of his techniques and they really really work. I was lucky enough to nearly run head on into him while heading for the ladies room (he is pretty cute) and he say's "G'Day Mate!" with a real smile on his face.

I have seen Monty, John Lyons, Pony Boy and one or two others and none of them impressed my like Clinton Anderson did.

[dalpal]

Burnout maybe????? No excuse, but all that sounds like someone who is in burnout phase.

I wish I could have seen Jane Savoie's clinic.

[Appy48]

I've seen John Lyons many times and am surprised to hear your report. Not that it is an excuse, but maybe burnout? It seems like his son Josh is doing more and more, so maybe John has had enough? I know in the past I alwyas enjoyed his clinics and learned alot from them. JMHO

[SLW]

That is too bad he had bad session and no, I've never seen be rude to a fellow instructor. I saw him at Kansas Equifest for several years and found him to be a capable problem solver, able to read a horse and know when to release pressure all the while telling us watching what he was doing and why.

I've also seen Clinton at Equifest twice, awesome too! I find his techniques and JL to be similiar.

What was funny at Equifest one year I watched JL work a horse that did not have a whoa and wanted to scoot. He schooled on the rail doing his drill- if they scoot gently pull them in a small circle, release the pressure, walk, if they scoot again repeat. Whoa work was tossed in there. By the end of the talk the horse was walking quietly and would whoa.

The next session I watched was Linda Tellington Jones. She too was schooling a horse that had no whoa but as is her method, she was schooling from the ground. However, her technique required having two other people to assist her- one on the off side and one behind- along w/ the neck rope thing and whatever she does with that. The horse did not progress as swiftly as did JL horse during the talk.

What I took away from those two experts was this- JL showed me methods I can do by myself without the need for extra tools or people. LTJ methods require more "things" to achieve the outcome.

[La Gringa]

Jesus, how low was this full cheek, that he could pull it all the way through the horse's mouth? :eek: Is he that stupid, that he uses a bit that he doesn't know how to properly adjust? And where were the keepers on this full cheek? I can't imagine they were there, or it'd be nearly impossible to pull the bit through. Sounds like a cluster f**k to me. Poor horse. And poor people, who thought they were seeing an expert in action. :no:



I know I thought the same thing. It was hanging in the horses mouth. As soon as it slipped through the mare started flipping its head around in obvious discomfort. She only had the pointy end of the full cheek poking her straight in the roof of her mouth! I was actually kind of really upset about it, and wondered why in the heck did it take so long for someone to say something, and then when they did, why didn't he fix it immediately? He continued with it like this for another 10 minutes! After that I left and went back inside. He also made some really rude comment, like I said ,to the dressage clinician and to the riders, not very professional.

I honestly went in with an open mind too, wanting to see him. I was very dissappointed.

[Madeline]

Clinton Anderson the real deal? Cute accent, cute ass. Condescending. I'll concede that he's better than Pony Boy, but not much.

Try Leslie Desmond and Van HArgis if you're looking for the realdeal...

[DarkSecret]

I've seen John Lyons in person and have six of his original tapes. Overall he has some excellent techniques. I will say that I wasn't so impressed with him during the clinic, but I have really learned a lot from his tapes.
I've also seen Linda Tellington-Jones and have some books of hers. While I've never worked with her wands, etc., she has some wonderful exercise techniques. Although they're not "massages", that's how I use them. They've taken my bond with my horse to a deeper level. Also, my daughter is in dressage and her trainer said the massages really help to loosen the horse and help him become fluid, softer, etc.
I also have some Parelli stuff.

I think each trainer has something to offer. In the tapes, John Lyons openly compliments riders of different disciplines, including English. It's unfortunate that he wasn't very professional during the clinic, as well as not showing care about the horse. If he doesn't want to spend money on a bit, he shouldn't complain about its price and whether the bit is expensive or cheap, he should still take care of the horse.

[Murphy's Mom]

Are you sure it was JOHN Lyons you saw and not his son Josh? It's been about a dozen years since I met John, but was an absolute gentleman and very caring about the horses he worked with. Unfortunately I met his son a few years ago at a local horse gathering and was appalled at his conduct. His horsemanship was ok, but he made several rude comments about english riders. I was NOT impressed.

[La Gringa]

Are you sure it was JOHN Lyons you saw and not his son Josh? It's been about a dozen years since I met John, but was an absolute gentleman and very caring about the horses he worked with. Unfortunately I met his son a few years ago at a local horse gathering and was appalled at his conduct. His horsemanship was ok, but he made several rude comments about english riders. I was NOT impressed.

No, it was John himself. Older bow legged, John. Trust me I was surprised to see what I saw. I was not expecting it. The comment he made to the dressage trainer was earlier too, in a different session, unrelated to the bit incident with the mare he was working with in the outdoor covered arena.

Maybe it was just an off day, but to not fix that snaffle right away, was really not fair to the mare. It was just sloppy IMHO.

[KellyS]

One of my horses participated in a JL clinic back in 2001--we were at an expo and the invitation was extended for my guy to be a part of the clinic. At the time, my horse was incredibly nervous with any type of loud sounds, especially noises accentuated over a sound system (like announcers at a show system). However, with the judicial use of ear plugs, I had been able to show him, including at the Penn National and Washington International horse shows.

When John asked me if my horse had any issues, I shared my concerns about his nervousness with sounds. What transpired of the next hour effectively ended his show career. He was so panicked over the way John tried to introduce him to those types of noises (chasing him while blowing on his microphone and making other loud sounds), that I have never been able to take him into a show atmosphere again. To this day, loud sounds send him into a panic.

I am so angry at myself for allowing that to happen, but I trusted John that he was doing what was right and that the end result would be okay. Boy was I wrong and I regret that I ever agreed to let my horse be a part of the clinic. Shame on me and shame on JL.

[Chipngrace]

Well I guess I'm an awful person too, I've had tack screw up with me while I had it on a horse and sometimes I didn't notice right away either. I don't have anything to say about John Lyons, I've not seen him, or his tapes, I do own one book (bringing up baby or something) that was given to me when my baby horse was a baby.

[hb]

Many, many years ago I boarded my horse at a large commercial facility, and John Lyons would come in and do weekend clinics twice a year. He was not polite to those of us that boarded there. The clinic format was outrageous - over 50 riders in a 100' X 200' arena at the same time, galloping from one end to the other doing rollbacks at each end. We could not figure out what they were learning.

He has plenty of knowledge to offer, not disputing that, just that the clinic format did not seem to be conducive to passing much knowledge on to the participants. It was, however, conducive to channeling the maximum dollars to the clinician's pockets.

And there was a distinct difference in his demeanor towards his paying clients and the rest of us. A true gentlemen would be just as polite to all.

[jgrass]

The horse Lyons was working with had a Full Cheek snaffle on that was not adjusted properly, and was hanging too low. As Mr Lyons was working with the horse on the ground, the full cheek slipped though the horses mouth and was stabbing the horse in the mouth, painfully. You could clearly see the horse being very uncomfortable, and John Lyons, didn't even notice. It took someone from the audience to point it out, and then even after that he just "brushed it off' as nothing, said it was a cheap bit and continued with the bit obviously hurting the horse's mouth for another 10-15 minutes. He finally then did adjust it.. but I really was annoyed with this. The poor mare.


I was at this year's expo, and at last year's. Last year (April 2005) in the Lyons clinic the exact same thing happened. He managed to pull the full cheek snaffle completely through the mouth of the horse he was working so that what was in the horse's mouth was the cheekpiece of the bridle. He shrugged this off by saying that the horse had to learn to deal with it. He worked a good 15 minutes with the bit on the side of the horse's head.

This was his trademarked bridle with his trademarked bit and reins, so he hardly could call them crappy equipment. This was pretty disappinting to see. I'm not happy to hear this happened again this year. Yuck.

[LarkspurCO]

I feel your pain.

I was a fan of John Lyons (received his newsletter, etc.) until I saw his symposium several years ago. A woman brought a mare in for the Friday evening demo. The mare was okay under saddle but the rider sometimes had trouble stopping her. Watching them ride, it was obvious she was a novice rider, not at all connected with the horse. But the mare seemed nice.

John got on the mare and proceeded to spur the crap out of her continuously or the next 45 minutes (teaching her to to "move forward"). I knew she was a kind mare because she didn't throw his sorry butt off. She was wringing her tail and pinning her ears the entire time. The audience whispered, murmured and squirmed in disbelief.

The Saturday session was just as bad. I left early and did not return Sunday.

Are you sure it was JOHN Lyons you saw and not his son Josh?

I have seen Josh Lyons perform and, personally, I think he's far superior to his dad (doesn't look anything like him, either). My friend, a newly certified "John Lyons" trainer, was doing a clinic with Josh, Frank Bell and a few other trainers. All was going well until John showed up unannounced, usurped the microphone from his son, and spent the next two hours boring 200 people to death with his monotonous drivel.

[time fault]

Clinton Anderson the real deal? Cute accent, cute ass. Condescending.

Oh thank you Madeline!!! And I bet you didn't even work for him! The things I saw, I could write a book. :yes:

[goeslikestink]

sounds the same as everything else-- money for old rope--

thing is these sorts of people take a bit of this anda bit of that learnt from others in past or seen and have marketed it --

maybe he rides in low cheek so that he can get the horse to look good whilse hes on top or on the ground atrick of the trade see put the bit in the wrong place horse plays up naughty horsey as he does demos and people are telling him what ther horse does-- and th ehorse is so nuaghty so then he has to fix the problem in ademo-- simple move the bit -- horse behaves--

sometimes people are show men just like dealers that have bad repretations
that do things to the horse ie bute it to behave get home and its a nutter--
they do it earn money the quickest way-- maybe iam wrong maybe iam not but to me a person that teaches as it is teaching as it is a demo in front of an audience then they wouldnt put the horse to shame they would turn round and say the bit is wrong-- and correct the comfort zone of the horse beofre they did anything with it--

monty roberts to is aperson that chases the horses away throws his arms up and then says naughty horse -- but in most the horses arnt wild they have been trianed to adegree again before they start they know what the horse does as the people told them so they work on that bit--

they are showmen ,look at what i cando and you can do it to, only soemties people get hurt ie pereilli whatever its money as for the teelington i looked at that and thats just pole work done in a different form but its still basic pole work -- just descirbe differently much to with evething else - its all money
i would personally spend my money with a trianer thats been there and done it and knows how to get the best from the horse through decent balanced education which i do do that with my trainer--

you know the worse thing i fear is a noivce doing things that maybe they could get hurt with becuase they are so vunerable and new to the sport

[Teach]

Jesus, how low was this full cheek, that he could pull it all the way through the horse's mouth? :eek: Is he that stupid, that he uses a bit that he doesn't know how to properly adjust? And where were the keepers on this full cheek? I can't imagine they were there, or it'd be nearly impossible to pull the bit through. Sounds like a cluster f**k to me. Poor horse. And poor people, who thought they were seeing an expert in action. :no:

I've seen this with several of the NH trainers in my area & finally had to ask WHY they all adjust their bits so that they hang ultra-low in the mouth (my thought was, bang my tempermental mare in the teeth just once--see what happens!) I was loftily informed that the bit should be loose so that when the horse comes "round" (ie: lowers his nose without coming through the back or stepping through) he can "choose to lift & carry the bit--this is what is called 'self-carriage'." (please note that that's a quote.) I am further informed that my eggbutt snaffle (this is the popular model here) should be outfitted with a curb strap from ring to ring in order to 'stabilize' it & keep it from being pulled into & through the mouth. Silly me--I've just been fitting it correctly all these years & riding with soft hands and trusting that to keep me right, when all this time I could have just used an extra piece of tack to do it for me! :D

[goeslikestink]

haha teach -- you made me laugh--

[Coup De Des]

CHOO CHOO!

[ESG]

I've seen this with several of the NH trainers in my area & finally had to ask WHY they all adjust their bits so that they hang ultra-low in the mouth (my thought was, bang my tempermental mare in the teeth just once--see what happens!) I was loftily informed that the bit should be loose so that when the horse comes "round" (ie: lowers his nose without coming through the back or stepping through) he can "choose to lift & carry the bit--this is what is called 'self-carriage'." (please note that that's a quote.)

I'm sure that would be big news to all the dressage trainers, who are obviously going about it the wrong way. :lol:

I am further informed that my eggbutt snaffle (this is the popular model here) should be outfitted with a curb strap from ring to ring in order to 'stabilize' it & keep it from being pulled into & through the mouth.
I've encountered this phenomenon before. They just want to be sure that when they pull so hard that the bit is in the curb strap position, they still have something in the horse's mouth for a semblance of control. :p Although, I must say that pulling a full cheek through a horse's mouth should be a pretty good indication, even to a novice, that their methods aren't what they claim. ;)

Silly me--I've just been fitting it correctly all these years & riding with soft hands and trusting that to keep me right, when all this time I could have just used an extra piece of tack to do it for me! :D

Imagine that! :D But I'd be willing to bet that their hospital bills, especially for ER visits, are a whole lot higher than yours. :D

And Madeline and time fault? Have at Clinton Anderson, but I can tell you his methods work. At least, the ones I've used, have. More than you can say about the crap the others mentioned here try to pawn off on the unsuspecting public as "training". :rolleyes: And yes, time fault - I'm sure you did see things that would be frowned upon in polite training circles if you worked for Clinton; probably the same sorts of things that you'd see if you worked for any professional trainer. 'Tis the way of things, methinks. :winkgrin:

[Daydream Believer]

I have to share a success I've had with Clinton's techniques. It is fresh on my mind because we did it yesterday on our foals ranging from 5-6.5 months now. I have one filly that is a spitfire to trim....rears and has tantrums. If you confine her to a stall or pen for trimming she gets worse. She was good up until about 3 months old and then she got into these tantrums...we had some serious issues with her and she was getting worse...not better with traditional baby handling methods. I decided to change my tactics with her yesterday after studying Clinton Anderson's techniques on baby handing. Just so you know, I do my own trims and I'm decent at it...haven't ruined any horses yet...but my point is to tell you how we did the foals yesterday.

Anyway, we did all three foals in the open pasture with their herdmates where they are most comfortable. The first two were the "easy" ones and both stood almost perfectly with my hubby holding them and their buddies offering assistance while we worked. I had my pockets picked several times and much equine affection while working. Then we got to my problem child last. She was quite good for the first two feet and then decided she had enough and it was time to let us know. As soon as she started to be naughty, she got put to work. My husband (under my tutelage) worked her by making her move and pivot, yeild her hindquarters, move her feet, and turn around her forehand. As soon as she would become a little submissive with mouthing, he'd stop and offer to let her stand quietly...and I'd pick up her foot. After about 3 repeats of the "work" when she tried to object to having her foot trimmed she stood like an angel and we finished her. No rearing, no kicking, no running backwards...in an open 5 acre field. We just made doing the right thing the easy path (the reward) and doing the wrong thing brought work. This is Clinton's philosophy and I am starting to use it in nearly every aspect of handling and training now. Perhaps the other guys are doing something similar but for some reason CA just got the message home to me much better.

[La Gringa]

I am further informed that my eggbutt snaffle (this is the popular model here) should be outfitted with a curb strap from ring to ring in order to 'stabilize' it & keep it from being pulled into & through the mouth. Silly me--I've just been fitting it correctly all these years & riding with soft hands and trusting that to keep me right, when all this time I could have just used an extra piece of tack to do it for me! :D

The funny thing was in this clinic Saturday is the full cheek he was using had the curb strap on and was still pulled through the mouth! It was so low that the 3-4" prong on the cheek went through with the curb strap and stabbed the mare in the mouth.

Interesting reading all of this and people's experiences. No doubt that JL has contributed something to the NH training methods, but what I saw Saturday was not right.

How are Clinton Anderson's techniques for trailering and teaching to load in a trailer compared to JL?

[Daydream Believer]

How are Clinton Anderson's techniques for trailering and teaching to load in a trailer compared to JL?

Pretty much the same as my foot trimming scenario. He makes the area outside the trailer a place of work and discomfort and the inside of the trailer a place of rest. He even made a joke that the "tap tap" method used by other clinicians will work if you have hours to wait, but he prefers faster results. :cool:

He basically moves a horse on the long leadrope...lunging, direction changes, moving feet and gradually works them closer to the trailer even walking them over the ramp side ways. If he offers to let the horse go in and they refuse, than they go back to work. Eventually the horse when pointed at the trailer, walked in and got to rest and hang out and soon figured out that the inside of the trailer was much nicer than outside being worked hard.

[theoldgreymare]

Clinton Anderson is the real deal, IMO. John Lyons, Monty Roberts, and that reincarnation of PT Barnum, Pat Parelli? Not so much. More "nonexistent horsemanship" than "natural horsemanship" with the latter three. :no:

:lol: :lol:

[mrd]

I've been unimpressed by JL for quite a long time now. Maybe he is just past his prime now.

At Timonium quite a few years ago he had just started his clinic and had let the horse just roam free in the arena. Well the horse got down and rolled with a new western saddle on. Many in the audience groaned and giggled. He spent the next 45 minutes lecturing on the reason that we (the audience) were not good horsemen was because we lacked the attention span to work with horses. Sorry - but that was so far from what the clinic was supposed to be about and many in the crowd were not horse people, but parents of horse people that know what a new nice saddle costs. Whatever.

Then, maybe two years ago, at the Harrisburg expo, he went well over his allotted time having a wedding ceremony. Nice for him, don't want to rain on his parade, but how many people really came to see or really wanted to see his wedding? It wasn't on the schedule, I don't think anyone knew, and there was no apology offered to the clinician that was following him that then had to cut his presentation by about a half an hour. I think that is really very selfish and rude, and I think it was the common feeling amongst the spectators. Especially the ones that came to see the following clinician.

[La Gringa]

Sorry - but that was so far from what the clinic was supposed to be about and many in the crowd were not horse people, but parents of horse people that know what a new nice saddle costs. Whatever.



Forget about the saddle, what would that do to a horse's back, rolling with a western saddle on? Did it break the tree on the saddle? Rolling with a saddle with a horn... ouch. I would have been furious if that had been my horse.

[katarine]

I'll age myself a little- I saw JL back in 1989, I think? WAYYY long ago. He was good, he was patient, he started a spoiled young horse and I liked what I saw. I guess he's burned out and tired. God Knows I would be after too many years and too many 'shows'. That's terrible that he blew KerryS (??) horse's mind. That really sucks and is not acceptable.

Parelli USED to be a good horseman. Now, he's an over the top salesman. YUCK. I can't watch him sashay across the TV screen again, I just can't take it.

CA- he'll by golly get on one's face, but he can and does compete in reining, so I give him points for walking the walk and actually competing. I don't care that he takes shortcuts or somesuch at home- I've worked in 'big name' barns and around 'big names'- no one out there is following a hallowed, and pure, road to Rome. Not happenin' folks.

As for those of you freaked out about an eggbutt with a curb strap, yes, it's recommended and not uncommon in western-barns. We don't have a cavesson on their head to help keep their mouth shut, like you could with an english bridle. Don't run off ASSuming it's common to jerk a snaffle through a baby's mouth, it's not. But when a walmart bag attacks, it might be nice to have it along.

[Tikigator]

just saw this thread...friend of mine was chosen to have her horse as one of the demo horses ("problem horses") at one of the Lyons seminars. her horse just has issues, he bucks, he rears, he's just nuts. well, she took him to the seminar and it took Lyons 6 hours...and to no availe he could not tame the wild beast. :no: granted this horse is my friend's trail horse, I mean he's rideable, he just cocks an attitude and its all over. he'll spin, etc and i guess Lyons put him in a 6 foot high round pen and the horse tried to climb out. :eek:

i guess up until that point my friend, along with others, were huge Lyons fans, but now they are sort of...dismayed I suppose. its just you think a person can work miracles...and then you bring them your horse, and nothing happens.

I don't really follow Lyons or Parelli or Anderson...I know some of their techniques work, but all it really seems to be to me is playing with your horse, half of the reason why their stuff works is you are spending time with your horse. i mean honestly, its like that at work with dogs--people wonder why their dog won't sit, or lay down, or jumps up on people. and we ask them "well, how often do you spend training your dog? teaching him these things?" and the answer is always the same "well, we don't really" you have to MAKE TIME....form a relationship with the animal, you know?

anyway, i can understand your dissappointment.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

What is missing from this train wreck...please allow me to help derail...is a discussion on the fine methods of Gawanee PonyBoy.

[J Swan]

Harumpf!
Do you mean, GoOnPullMyFinger Phonyboy?

I tell you what though - that kid is laughing all the way to the bank. He's a born again Indian from Jersey or someplace.

Hmmm- - - there's a money making idea - I will get Mr. JSwan to grow his hair long again, stick him in a tanning bed until he's medium rare, paint him up, and pose him on one of my horses. I'll make a calendar or something.

Mr. JSwan has got muscles - he's not a little girly man following his horse too closely.

What is missing from this train wreck...please allow me to help derail...is a discussion on the fine methods of Gawanee PonyBoy.

[Teach]

As for those of you freaked out about an eggbutt with a curb strap, yes, it's recommended and not uncommon in western-barns. We don't have a cavesson on their head to help keep their mouth shut, like you could with an english bridle. Don't run off ASSuming it's common to jerk a snaffle through a baby's mouth, it's not. But when a walmart bag attacks, it might be nice to have it along.

Ah, but Katerine I am a western rider myself (reining), albiet one with an extensive background in dressage; I still train dressage horses, but choose to compete in a different arena. I work every horse on the property in variations of snaffles (mostly loose-ring french) & not one has a curb strap because I simply add a noseband to my bridle--it cost roughly the same as the curb strap. And since I too have witnessed (many times) the bit being pulled straight through the mouth ao that the strap &/or cheekpiece were in the mouth, I'd venture to say the noseband works a little better too! Although, I also don't pull that hard either. So you see, I am not necessisarily the one ASSuming. (joke!) :winkgrin:

[katarine]

well, Teach, that was my point and you are actually agreeing with me- if you'll just add a noseband/cavesson/mouth shutter- you don't need to fool with the curb strap. Agreed?

I just envisioned all these upset English riders dismayed about something silly, like a curb strap on a snaffle. Oh, the horrors :D

[Daydream Believer]

Yes, the second paragraph is how CA does it.

[Kementari]

well, Teach, that was my point and you are actually agreeing with me- if you'll just add a noseband/cavesson/mouth shutter- you don't need to fool with the curb strap. Agreed?

I just envisioned all these upset English riders dismayed about something silly, like a curb strap on a snaffle. Oh, the horrors :D

Anyone who thinks a cavesson actually keeps a horse from opening it's mouth hasn't ever used one with a horse who WANTED to open it's mouth. ;) Also, anyone who thinks a curb strap will keep a bit from sliding through a horse's gaping mouth has never used one (and then pulled on the bit hard) with a horse that DID gape.

Plenty of English riders ride frequently in snaffle bits with no cavesson - and no curb strap. Even more ride with cavessons adjusted so loosely that even the VERY minimal affect they might have on a horse who wants to gape its mouth is completely gone. (There was a whole thread on this in the dressage forum recently.)

Ride with what works for you - but don't pretend your way is the ONLY way. :yes:

[katarine]

Of course, kementari- I agree completely. I just noticed people wringing their hands about a curb strap on a snaffle and it struck me as a pretty pointless thing to be bothered about :cool:

[katarine]

why not read the entire thread, TS< you seem to have plenty of time on your hands, no?

or do what you always do= google it, read up on it for 2 minutes, and become the instant expert.

[Giddy-up]

Hmmm- - - there's a money making idea - I will get Mr. JSwan to grow his hair long again, stick him in a tanning bed until he's medium rare, paint him up, and pose him on one of my horses. I'll make a calendar or something.

Mr. JSwan has got muscles - he's not a little girly man following his horse too closely.

LMAO!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks J Swan, I so needed that today too!!

[La Gringa]

I personally have always loved and admired JL and still do. I think he's the most reasonable and down to earth with the most good information that works on darn near every horse. This is the first negative report I've ever heard about JL.

Was it in fact John or was it his son Josh? Josh does about 90% of the demos around the country now as John is getting older and has other things on his plate.

If you read the thread, I was already asked this question, yes it was John Lyons, himself, not his son Josh.

I have seen several others of this type of training including Buck Brannaman, Clinton Anderson, Parelli, and now John Lyons. My favorites were CA, and Buck Brennaman.

I truely went into John's clinic with an open mind. I was really concerned for this mare's well being when that snaffle was stabbing her in the mouth, even though JL was aware of it, for 15 minutes. It just was sloppy and he should have fixed it. I understand that tack slips, but to not correct it after someone pointed it out, was just careless.

Obvously, Two Simple, you are a fan, and this isn't going to change your mind. I am just really surprised at the outcome of my experience with his clinics (I saw 2 sessons) and his demeanor.

How do you explain the snarky comments he made to the other clinician and her students? That was just plain rude.

[Charisma]

I concur that it was indeed John Lyons, and I was a little dismayed at his professionalism. I didn't see the afternoon one, but I saw the morning one and John was talking to the crowd and the horse put his head down, the reins went down the neck a bit and he got his foot stuck in this reins. Now John did nothing, nothing to help this horse out. The poor horse sat there trying to figure out how to get out of the reins, meanwhile John is talking and the bit is pressing hard into the horses mouth. Finally John took the reins and helped the horse out. It was hard to sit there and see the horse struggle a bit and be ignored. :-(

[Daydream Believer]

That's just sad because I don't want a horse doing something because he's trying to escape pain or fear. I want him to do it because he trusts me and because it becomes learned behavior or habit for him.



Whoa now...who said the horse is going in to avoid pain and fear? He's going in to avoid work and exercise and being told to move this way and that way. I don't think it's the same thing. All he's doing is making the inside of the horse trailer a relaxing place to hang out and the outside a place of work. That's not abuse....that's common sense from both the horse's and the trainers perspective.

[MsM]

I saw JL at Equine Affaire a few years ago. Even then I thought he was burned out. He spent a lot of time talking and being folksy and not saying much. And I too thought some of his practices were lackadasical and dangerous. He had three horses tied to the rail. I think only one was a horse he knew well. He invited kids to sit under the rail and some were practically at the horses feet. More than one had to scurry when a horse turned at an unexpected noise. I was not impressed. In fact you could see people dribbling out of the stands as he kept chatting and not really addressing anything the horses were doing.
There was, however, a huge area in the commercial building with JL approved stuff for sale. I called it the JL Shrine.

A fellow boarder at my stable has gotten into Parrelli stuff. I have mentioned that many people have reservations about the costs and marketing. Still she loves it and is watching her DVDs. Well, it give a focus to her groundwork and some new stuff to work on. There isnt anything that appears dangerous and she is happy to spend the money and work up the "levels" Fine. To each his own.

[solargal]

I liked Clinton Anderson before, until I saw one episode. If you look he tries to make it seem like the horses respond really quickly when actually they have cut away and now the horse is exhausted. I understand and don't hold it against him, but I wish one would say, ya, we lunged this horse for 30 min straight before this. None of the tv guys do.

The episode where he got on an exhausted colt for the first time(at a clinic) and had somebody chase the horse around the round pen with a bag was the most ridiculous thing I saw. The horse was horrified, exhausted to the point of not hardly able to move, I honestly thought the horse was going to lose his balance and fall. All he did was lunge the horse till it couldn't hardly move and then have someone chase the thing with a plastic bag. He made the first ride more traumatic than he had to and risked serious injury to him and the "helper."

[EqTrainer]

I sure hope he has made enough $$$$ and is ready to move on now. I have dealt with one too many person who went to one of those weekend clinics he used to give and now fancies themself to be a horse trainer. Makes me wonder why I've wasted all these years learning... heck, it only takes two days!

[Lambie Boat]

I saw John Lyons in Albany Oregon in March of this year. he was teaching his "starting the unbroke horse" seminar and had a horse that had never been haltered, lead, lunged, roundpen or had any tack on....in 3 hours, he was walk,trot,canter under saddle in the round pen, and then outside going large in a big arena with a large noisy audience. 2 nights later, teaching the same seminar with a new horse, he got flipped on and broke his shoulder. he's an old crippled bow legged cowboy who is past it. that said, I couldn't start a horse in 3 hours. It's taken me almost a year. you want a charlatan, go to dressage forum and read about craig stevens. you might not agree with john lyon's methods- I'm not down with most of it- but he's a horseman. at least.

[Shiaway]

I don't really see much disctinction between any of the NH peeps. They all have the same idea: ware a horse out until it's too tired to put up an argument.

And why is it ok for CA to practice rolkur but not Anky, I'll never know.

[egontoast]

"starting the unbroke horse" seminar and had a horse that had never been haltered, lead, lunged, roundpen or had any tack on....in 3 hours, he was walk,trot,canter under saddle in the round pen, and then outside going large in a big arena with a large noisy audience.

I have never understood the point of these spectaculars, other than to wow a crowd. Why would you want to do that to a young horse? It's just not necessary to do all that in the first session. What's the hurry? What credible trainer would work a completely rank young horse for 3 hours the first time handled. Makes no sense.

This is more about the egos of people who believe their own hype than it is about training a horse.

[dalpal]

Egontoast...I soooo agree.

Would someone please explain to me the benefits to taking an unbroke horse and teaching them walk/trot/canter in three hours....My horse stayed in training for months before I felt like she was ready to take home.

I just don't understand the joy/accomplishment of having a young horse walk/trot/canter in a matter of hours. Maybe the lady in this area has the right idea with her 4Hs breaking horses for her in one week if this is the correct way to go:no:

[Daydream Believer]

CA...rollkur?? Huh? Not even close to the same thing. Having seen him ride, he rode on a loose rein and while he did practice one rein stops and flexing the horse's head to the side, that was at a standstill...not in motion like in dressage and certainly not even close to the same amount of stress on a horses. I'd much rather send a baby to him to start than one of big name rollkur dressage trainers.

I have also watched him start a youngster in a clinic setting and the first thing he said was that we don't do this in one day at home but we accelerate here at the clinic for the sake of teaching people. He spends a week doing groundwork on every horse sent to him...and yes, CA does take horses in training still. I also did not think the horse he worked with was run to exhaustion or worked any harder than many I've seen have the crap lunged out of them before anyone gets the courage to get on them in the normal course of every day riding.

You have to realize that the clinics are just that...not everyday real life for these clinicians. I just don't get the hostility...just because their methods are different from the "norm" for english type horses where folks run them around on a lunge for weeks in sidereins before even riding them, doesn't make them wrong...just different. I'd be willing to bet their methods are less stressful in the long run.

[Holly'er Than Thou]

I'm very interested in the comments he made to others, Gringa. What, exactly did he say to them?

[ESG]

Egontoast...I soooo agree.

Me, too. :yes:

Would someone please explain to me the benefits to taking an unbroke horse and teaching them walk/trot/canter in three hours....My horse stayed in training for months before I felt like she was ready to take home.

Why, silly dalpal - of course there is benefit; just not to the horse. The ability to start a youngster in a couple of hours is imperative, if one is to enthrall neophytes to the point that they buy your overpriced DVDs and unnecessary "training aids". :p

[dalpal]

ESG..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, I am such a blonde!:D

[La Gringa]

I'm very interested in the comments he made to others, Gringa. What, exactly did he say to them?

Just things like "these Dressage riders, think they rule the arena" "They really don't know how to train a horse"

These comments were heard by my friend, who interpreted them as rude. She said the dressage lady Jane Savorie just smiled and walked off. Some of her students were still in the ring when he said this. It was pretty rude, at least in the eyes of Jane and my friend. I was sitting farther back and didn't hear it, but I did see the look from Jane, and wondered what happened.

In the outdoor arena he made a comment that he had a dressage whip so he could "be on the same level" as the dressage clinician. I heard this comment.

[La Gringa]

How would you like it if every little mistake you ever made with your horses was on video tape and talked about over the internet and documented?

I don't think having a full cheek snaffle stabbing a horse in the mouth for 15 minutes even after someone told you about it, is little. The horse was flipping it's head around in obvious discomfort. It's also interesting that other people at other clinics have seen other things.. not so little.

Rolling on a western saddle in a clinic because he just let the horse loose and wasn't paying attention, is not a little mistake in my eye.

Maybe he is burned out. I am not saying he hasn't done some good things for people... if he hadn't he wouldn't be as famous as he is.

I was just really shocked #1 at his rudeness to the other clinician and #2 that he didn't care that the mare, a very sensitive arabian with issues with her mouth, was being stabbed in the palate by a 4" prong on the full cheek.

Sorry but that isn't little in my book.

[bugsynskeeter]

To my knowledge curb straps are completely useless unless you have a leverage bit. Is that right?

It is not used for leverage when attached to a snaffle bit. It is used to keep the bit from sliding through the horse's mouth when doing lateral bends. All my snaffles have a leather curb strap on them for this reason.

[Murphy's Mom]

Just things like "these Dressage riders, think they rule the arena" "They really don't know how to train a horse"
Hmm, When I saw JL ages ago (about 12 years), I don't remember hearing any comments like this. However, when I saw Josh Lyons, he asked the crowd to define dressage for him. Since there were several english riders in the crowd one called out that dressage simply meant training. Wrong! says Josh. According to him, dressage is training a horse until it's useless. Then he proceeded to spin his horse in circles using an open umbrella aimed at one eye to make the horse move faster.

Another NH trainer (somewhat BNT around the PNW) made rude comments about english riders while I was riding in his clinic. Really rude I thought since I was the only one in an english saddle and was riding fairly well (on a loose rein too). I almost walked out on him, but didn't since I had paid a few hundred dollars to learn something. Won't ever go back to him either. Luckily I have been able to work with a local cowboy with great horsemanship skills. He doesn't care what type of saddle you ride in or if you have a rope halter. In fact, he refuses to sell you any equipment. He's in it for the horse's sake.

[thoroughbred06]

i've seen him at the midwest horse fair or about 3 years no and ive never seen that happen. i use john lyons to train my appaloosa and it works great. i duont know what was up but i dont agree with it and he shouldve taken care of it right away otherwise he isnt holding up to his reputation.

[dalpal]

How would I like it if everything I did was taped?????

It would be just fine with me if I was making the mint that these guys are. If you are going to market yourself and agree to do an expo, I do think acting professional should be part of your game day, If you are in a bad mood...fake it.

Hey, you know what's great Two Simple....there's something for everyone in the world and if you enjoy NH approach and that works for you great...it just doesnt' work for everyone.

[egontoast]

How would you like it if every little mistake you ever made with your horses was on video tape and talked about over the internet and documented?

You mean like if your horse bolted in a victory gallop? Yes , I agree. Not quite the same as a three hour long mistake though.

[blueribbonbaby]

Ive seen john lyons doing a demonstration before...and i agree. He bad mouths people, BY NAME!!! He doesnt pay attention to what he is doing..when i saw him he was telling the crowd how awful dressage riders are and how when they longe their horses the just let the horses run around at the end of the line without really doing anything with them:eek: (that is not how i lnoge a horse, nor is it how i see people i work with longing...but i digress) As he was telling the crowd how awful dressage people are at longing...he let the longe line drag and the horse got his leg wrapped up in it:no: He may have contributed something somewhere...but i have yet to see it. And i dont care how wonderful someone is (or how wonderful THEY think they are) when someone has as bad an attitude as he has...i dont care what they have to say. I have no respect for that man. He has no respect for others. edited to add*** i just went back and read a few other responses...and i just want to say again...this man did almost nothing the entire demonstration but bad mouth dressage riders!!! Constantly!! ***

[wlrottge]

Just a thought..... but......

I wonder if their disdain for english riders and dressage riders in particular stems from our reluctance to do anything the "quick" way. I guess they know they will NEVER pick up many customers from the english disciplines and are therefore bitter. Since dressage riders especially understand how to be slow, soft and methodical with their mounts, I think he probably isn't telling them anything they don't already understand.

My wife and I being eventers look at short cuts in training as a road to a problem you will have to fix later down the road. We went to a PP "clinic" (looked like a Tupperware demo to me, "buy my stuff") and I tried to speak with him for a minute after the session. It surprised me how his attitude changed after the word "thoroughbred" came out of my mouth. I walked away mumbling, "@sshole...."

[Lambie Boat]

I have a DVD called "El Camino del Caballo" that is about 3 top horsemen, 3 unbroke horses, 3 different styles competing to start these horses against a 3 hour time clock. Filmed in Fort Worth TX in 2003, it stars Clinton Anderson, Josh Lyons and Curt Pate. I feel sorry for the horses but they did not seem very 'difficult' so I don't know if they were really green or what.

[La Gringa]

Everyone has opinions about different diciplines, and may even disagree with them, but to say these things openly in a clinic at an Expo in the arena where the Dressage Clinician and her students were still present, was just unprofessional. I don't care if they walk on water, it's rude.

Most cowboys, are actually gentlemen, I have known many true cowboys living in Elko, NV for many years. What JL said and how he acted this weekend was not polite at all.

[Ghazzu]

I have to share a success I've had with Clinton's techniques...

I just can't get past Clinton Anderson's edorsement of an electronic shock device as a training aid...:no:

[Murphy's Mom]

I wonder if their disdain for english riders and dressage riders in particular stems from our reluctance to do anything the "quick" way. I guess they know they will NEVER pick up many customers from the english disciplines and are therefore bitter. Since dressage riders especially understand how to be slow, soft and methodical with their mounts, I think he probably isn't telling them anything they don't already understand.
I think a GOOD trainer is going to take it slow and easy with no gadgets regardless of the type of saddle they sit in. The cowboy I've learned from certainly does and so is the cowboy I'm sending my mare to this winter for backing. Actually, that cowbow makes his living giving clinics to english riders (mostly on the east coast). I think his wife jumps. The only complaint I've heard about him is that he is too methodical and slow. Fine by me, that's what I like. On the other hand, we have some "dressage" riders around here that I wouldn't let near one of my horses. Even some that have ridden at the upper levels. Plenty of bad cowboy types too. Lots of "crank and spank", tiedowns, gadgets, etc. in this area. I'm just greatful that I know enough to filter the bad from the good.

[Daydream Believer]

I just can't get past Clinton Anderson's edorsement of an electronic shock device as a training aid...:no:

What are you talking about? I've never seen an electronic shocking device endorsed by CA. Can you be specific? He sells halters, a handy stick and that's about it really other than DVD's that he endorses as a training aid.

I actually sat there for two days and never once heard CA say one disparaging remark about any other discipline. He does have a funny sense of humor and apologizes in advance for not being politcally correct and driving the sensitive folks away, but I thought he was very funny and not bad at all.

Honestly, I've never heard any clinician JL, MR, PB or Parelli make a negative remark about anyone. MR stopped someone once who started to mention other trainers names and asked that they please don't name anyone. I don't think JL had any right to say what he did but is it possible it was just a joke? I've seen JL riding a Grand Prix dressage horse at the Equine Affaire once and he was really having a good time with the horse and his owner who was riding another of her horses.

[Rachel L]

Wow, I guess CA does endorse a shock collar kind of thing. On his website, on the sponsors page, is something called the vice breaker. http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/sponsors.html

[Ghazzu]

What are you talking about? I've never seen an electronic shocking device endorsed by CA. Can you be specific?

Is this specific enough?

http://www.vicebreaker.com/ae_clinton.asp

[LarkspurCO]

I'm wondering why you think a horse "shock collar" is any less humane than using a crop, spur or any other device that creates mild pain or discomfort. As long as the pulse is mild, I see no difference and can see why the collar might be better in some cases.

I've been shocked plenty of times myself (by my fiendish older brother) and have accidentally smacked myself with a whip. I'd take a mild shock over a whip sting any day.

[Daydream Believer]

Double post

[Daydream Believer]

Ok, and here I thought you were talking about some awful cattle prod thing like I've seen some dressage riders use...

How is that any less humane than an electric fence? I actually think if it was used right it could be a very effective tool. You should read the dialog and how he explains how he uses it. I agree with Larkspur 100%.

OK, I was wrong and stand corrected and he endorses an "electrical device" for training. I think it actually looks like it could be very very useful with dangeous vices like kicking.

[kenbiki]

My vet told me he attended some "clinic" just for vets and it was a John Lyons clinic....John's horse was lame during the whole thing! ugh! I've never attended a JL clinic so I don't have an opinion .I do think the purpose of attendin these clinics is to learn bits and pieces from all of them. I don't think we're going to agree with everything every single clinician believes,you must choose what works for your particular horse and for you as a horseman.

[Ghazzu]

Ok, and here I thought you were talking about some awful cattle prod thing like I've seen some dressage riders use...

How is that any less humane than an electric fence? I actually think if it was used right it could be a very effective tool. You should read the dialog and how he explains how he uses it. I agree with Larkspur 100%.

OK, I was wrong and stand corrected and he endorses an "electrical device" for training. I think it actually looks like it could be very very useful with dangeous vices like kicking.

I *did* read the dialogue.
And I *don't* like how he uses it.
PErsonally, I'd rather get a horse's attention focussed on me so he's not distracted by a mare than zap him when I have allowed his attention to wander.
YMMV.

I just don't like the damn things, for horses or for dogs.

And it is utilized in rather a different way than a whip or a spur should be used, IMHO.

[kaluha2]

Daydream Believer: Are you serious??

"Ok, and here I thought you were talking about some awful cattle prod thing like I've seen some dressage riders use..."

And earlier in this thread you speak of dressage riders/english riders longeing their horses in excess just so they can ride them.

If this is what you are witnessing in your neck of the woods, I would suggest that you venture out. I can assure you that there really is another world out there.

Are you also condoning bending a horses neck to a riders knee and to it's chest? What is the purpose of this? Please enlighten me.

[Daydream Believer]

Kahlua...are you serious? Open your eyes and look at the top riders in the sport..ie people winning medals at the olympics. Horses contorted into pretzel shapes all in the name of training and winning? Trust me, I've ventured out plenty over the last 30 years I've been in the sport and I have seen all of these things with my own eyes to include cattle prods used in place of dressage whips and bleeding sides from spurs and horses getting the shit whipped out of them because they would not do what the rider wanted instantly. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others just because you don't understand what they are doing and why.

Flexing the horses neck to the side is done by many many disciplines to include dressage. The difference is that CA and the NH guys are doing it at a standstill to help the horse learn to give to pressure. They are doing it with the rein to a snaffle bit or to a halter...not a curb bit like many top dressage riders. The rationale is to teach a horse to soften and be flexible as well as to prepare them for an emergency aid called a one rein stop.

[Ghazzu]

Again - I don't support CA or really any other NH person but I will say that CA uses the vice breaker for dangerous, agressive, or otherwise awful actions from the horse. You don't use it to teach the horse lateral movement, or to back up. You use it when the horse is consistently doing someting dangerous, harmful, or agressive.

.

Talking to a mare or kicking while in the stall?
Please.
Hardly at the top of the danger scale.


if a professional trainer uses it under the right circumstances to keep humans from being seriously injured or killed, then fine.


But it's not being peddled to "professional trainers".
It's being marketed to the average horse owner.
And to those who are Anderson fans, which might well indicate they're not even working with a trainer, but reading the books, watching the videos, etc.
In those circumstances, the phrase "monkey with a razor" comes to mind...

[Sandbarhorse]

I've been reading this thread with interest, as the few times I've had experience with JL, it's been pretty useful. In fact, I'm VERY suprised about negativity regarding the dressage folks, since I saw him several years ago at Equine Affaire in OH. He and a top dressage rider, who's name escapes me, each came into the arena and the dressage rider and horse did some reining manuevers and JL did some dressage manuevers on his App. I thought it was very cool to see how good training is good training.

I've also had a lot of sucess with his trailer loading training method, as have lots of my friends and people on this BB. There's also lots of good info. in his training on the trail tapes.

Perhaps time is wearing him down. If so, I'm very sorry to see/hear it. :( He always seemed to me to be more about common sense training than NH, per se'. I can't stand Monty Roberts and don't get me started on Parelli, but JL and his son Josh (the one time I saw him), were pretty good.

No one trainer is going to be the be all and end all, IMHO, but I'm sorry to hear that there is no longer more useful info. than uselss, in his presentations.

[La Gringa]

How do you explain the sloppiness of the prong jabbing the mare in the mouth for 15 minutes, even though he was alerted to it? There is no excuse for this.

I have no idea why he made the comments to and about the dressage folks like he did. We were all surprised by it as well.

[Daydream Believer]

And to those who are Anderson fans, which might well indicate they're not even working with a trainer, but reading the books, watching the videos, etc.
In those circumstances, the phrase "monkey with a razor" comes to mind...


My my...you must be talking about me.:winkgrin: Your narrowmindedness is obvious and your ignorance is showing badly. :yes: I hate to break it to you but I also work with an FEI trainer...an R judge out of NC and I am a serious student with a young horse schooling second level at home and competing. I also evented for over 20 years. I start young horses and work with horses with issues and I have found CA's and many other NH teachers ideas on working with those horses to be very helpful. I have taken truly wild BLM mustangs and horses off of large western ranches that have minimal handling and trained them to be useful well behaved horses using many of the NH techniques he and others teach. I have an open mind to new concepts and ways of doing things and I don't judge someone without getting educated on what exactly they are doing and why.

If you care to see some examples of horses I have trained, you can get on my website and look at my stallion. He was a 3 year old nearly untouched colt two years ago who'd never even had his feet trimmed or been vaccinated. He is the one schooling second level. Go to my colts/geldings page and scroll down to Nevada Star. He was a 6 year old untrained and wild BLM mustang when I rescued him from the slaughter man. He went to his first show less than a year later. There are others on there who's pics are not up...horses I started myself and competed sucessfully over the years.

You really need to watch who you are calling a "monkey with a razor" because anytime you label someone else like that it can come back on to you.

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks Two Simple. I think you and I think alike on many topics...just monkey's with razors I guess! hehehe...

[tbtrailrider]

but I wish one would say, ya, we lunged this horse for 30 min straight before this. None of the tv guys do.



Dennis Reis has....I would buy into his program.....:yes:
As a matter of fact it's on my Christmas list:eek:

[fullmoon fever]

Is this specific enough?

http://www.vicebreaker.com/ae_clinton.asp

I bought one of these about 15 or so years ago. In the right hands, i.e. someone who knows how to use it, it is a wonderful device. Learning how to use the Vicebreaker takes about 15 mins. of reading the instruction book.

I have used it to correct a horse who attacked his pasturemates. Two zaps and over 10 yrs. later he does NOT do it anymore. I've also used it to stop a stall kicker.

ANY device/aid used incorrectly is inhumane, be it whip, spurs or Vicebreaker.

[Equilibrium]

I had to laugh at a News Of The World article this weekend, Englis/Irish paper. It was Monty Roberts describing how people are shocking their horses with electric fences to get them to behave. Had a laugh as my fencing is all electric. Honestly, it's usually once that they zap themselves, don't want to be cruel. And quite frankly if they keep zapping themselves, I just think their a little thick. I'm guessing his business is a little slow at the moment. Sorry not a fan of any of the guys. I prefer to use knowledge, time, and thinking to work with my horses problems. We have a little saying here, try and be smarter than the horse. All of them are diffrent, all of them learn diffrent, and all have things that quirk some and not others.

As far as the bit thing is concerned, saw a rider become a vegatable at a horse show years ago. Full cheek snaffle got caught in riders stirrup when he went to get a fly. Over he went on top of riders head. Never ever used one after. All these years and never had any issues with any horse not using one. I hate them. And if they are broke right, with a nice mouth put on them, you don't need one anyway. We start a lot of young horses.

Terri

[Lora]

Kahlua...are you serious? Open your eyes and look at the top riders in the sport..ie people winning medals at the olympics. Horses contorted into pretzel shapes all in the name of training and winning? Trust me, I've ventured out plenty over the last 30 years I've been in the sport and I have seen all of these things with my own eyes to include cattle prods used in place of dressage whips and bleeding sides from spurs and horses getting the shit whipped out of them because they would not do what the rider wanted instantly. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others just because you don't understand what they are doing and why.

Flexing the horses neck to the side is done by many many disciplines to include dressage. The difference is that CA and the NH guys are doing it at a standstill to help the horse learn to give to pressure. They are doing it with the rein to a snaffle bit or to a halter...not a curb bit like many top dressage riders. The rationale is to teach a horse to soften and be flexible as well as to prepare them for an emergency aid called a one rein stop.


I ride dressage and have never seen or heard of anyone using a cattle prod on a dressage horse. Only the very highest levels of dressage usually ride in a double bridle - and that is usually for showing, practice a lot of times they use snaffles. Most dressage horses are taught to stop from the seat not the rein.

[philosoraptor]

I'm staying out of the JL discussion because I don't know enough about him, but something Ghazzu said reminded me of a story.

Talking to a mare or kicking while in the stall?
Please. Hardly at the top of the danger scale.

I worked in a barn where a few horses would kick the stall walls incessantly, especially at mealtime. One of them kicked, and the boards finally gave way. Wood shattered, the foot got stuck, and his first reaction was to squirm which resulted in the leg going deeper. By the time I ran over to him and got helpers, he had sink into the hole halfway up to his back legs. Now imagine for a second this small splintery hole that kept closing up around his leg when he pulled inward! To this day I don't know how we got him free and he only got a scrape.

The same barn had a young flashy show horse, and she had to be the worst. She kicked at mealtime, sometimes even when no other horses were in sight. We were worrying with the repeated full-force concussion was doing to her joints.

So, yes, in some situations incessant stall kicking can be dangerous.

However, I see your point about this gizmo... it's so easy to misuse it.

But it's not being peddled to "professional trainers".
It's being marketed to the average horse owner.
And to those who are Anderson fans, which might well indicate they're not even working with a trainer, but reading the books, watching the videos, etc.

You're right. The question is -- what's the answer? Do we ban this device? Do we require people be licensed trainers to buy it?

[Daydream Believer]

I ride dressage and have never seen or heard of anyone using a cattle prod on a dressage horse. Only the very highest levels of dressage usually ride in a double bridle - and that is usually for showing, practice a lot of times they use snaffles. Most dressage horses are taught to stop from the seat not the rein.

I'm glad you haven't seen it. Unfortunately I have met people who bragged about curing horses that were not forward this way. :no: My point in mentioning dressage in this context was not to point fingers or put down dressage as a discipline (which I also ride in) but to show those who are self rightously pointing at some of the NH trainers as using abusive practices that abuses exist in every discipline.

[dalpal]

I hear ya DDB.

There was a BNT in our area until recently....everyone oooohed and awwwwwed over him.....I had boarded at a barn with him about 8 years ago and saw for my own eyes horses being beaten, whipped, spurred all in the name of dressage. One lady was taking a lesson with another BNT in the ring one day without stirrups...he had had enough of her getting in HIS way and whipped HER horse on the butt without warning, yelling at her to get out of his way....horse bolted in total panic almost throwing her....needless to say, she was gone from that barn ASAP. I never thought much of him after that no matter how much I heard people oooohing and awwwing over him.

There's good and bad in every discipline.

[Saddith]

I have been unimpressed by JL as well since the equine affaire 2 years ago here in CA. And, it wasn't his demeanor that put me off, it was his training methods. He had a horse loose in the round pen that he trained to come cantering up to him and slide to a stop about 2 feet away from him. That to me just seemed unsafe and unnecessary. People started clapping, and of course the horse moved - straight forward and almost over the top of him. He just managed to get out of the way - then laughed it off. For me, the first requirement as a trainer should be safety, and that whole maneuver was unsafe. I got up and walked out of his clinic in the first 10 minutes.

I am not a big PP or Gwani pony boy fan either. Granted, I haven't seen too much of their stuff, but again just their way of teaching didn't click with me. I have never seen Monty Roberts in person, so I can't comment on him either.

The two trainers I have seen are Buck Brannaman, and Clinton Anderson. Both seem to have a method of training that I like. So for me, I prefer to watch and listen to these two types of trainers. In fact, CA has a clinic this weekend in CA and I really want to go, but I may have to work.

I guess it comes down to personal preference about teaching methods. I tend to not take anything as "gospel" from anyone clinician, but gather those bits of information that I think would be successful with myself and my horse.

[Ghazzu]

My my...you must be talking about me.:winkgrin: Your narrowmindedness is obvious and your ignorance is showing badly.


As is your apparent difffculty at interpreting what I wrote in its entirety.
If you are an experienced horseperson, working with a trainer, then you are not in the category to which I referred, then, are you?

BTW, did you feel the need to use an electric shock collar on your stallion?

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I wouldn't mess with Ghazzu! She's the Horsecare Guru!

[Ghazzu]

I wouldn't mess with Ghazzu! She's the Horsecare Guru!

Bah.
I just hate electric shock collars, be they on dogs or horses.
Quick fixes frequently aren't.

[J Swan]

I shamefully admit to throwing a pebble at my yearling's butt when I caught him trying to crawl into a 16 gallon water trough and go for a swim - again.

In my defense - that big lug was draining my well dry and I couldn't get to the scene of the crime fast enough. On the other hand - he has not attempted to go for a swim lately.

But I don't think that's what you're talking about. Just an attempt at levity.



BTW, did you feel the need to use an electric shock collar on your stallion?

[hundredacres]

LOL... I threw a bucket at a horse who was charging at me. Hit him right in the noggin too! Was that a quick fix? In that moment I needed to be quick! It was quick enough that I'm alive to tell about it.

(another attempt at levity...I have used no other quick fix method aside from this impropmtu Bucket Training Method ;))

[dalpal]

LOL!!! I once took lessons with a lady who had a barn full of arabians. She had one that was very offended when she didn't give him her undivided attention in the barn. He would rake his teeth across the bars of his stall. One day she was talking to a friend and myself infront of his stall (her back to him)....Oh, this annoyed him...he started raking and raking...finally without turning around/continued talking without breaking stride.....she took her pepsi and threw it backwards in his face.:lol: Needless to say his feelings were quite hurt and I don't think he could figure out exactly why he was wet...but he stopped raking the bars.

[Daydream Believer]

As is your apparent difffculty at interpreting what I wrote in its entirety.
If you are an experienced horseperson, working with a trainer, then you are not in the category to which I referred, then, are you?

BTW, did you feel the need to use an electric shock collar on your stallion?

When you make generalizations like "people who follow Clinton Anderson" than yes, you were referring to me. No I don't fit the mold of a trainerless rider or a "monkey with a razor blade" which I felt was an unnecessary and derogatory name to call someone either just because they like someone you don't. :confused: That is why I replied like I did so you could see that there are many accomplished and intelligent people who see value in what he teaches.

No I've never used a shock collar on any horse but I don't rule it out for certain dangerous situations and I won't condemn anyone who uses one on a dog or a horse as long as it is used appropriately. If you go back you will a number of others have commented on that also and certain instances where it would have been called for.

[hundredacres]

Which reminds me...I hit my gelding with a pitchfork handle when he lunged at my 6 year old daughter and bit her in the head. That was Mothers Instinct Training. Quick as hell too ;). He never did it again. Quick Fixes DO happen all the time, don't they?

[Sandy M]

I wish someone would point out to me these blood-drawing-spur-using, whip until they are welted, etc. "dressage riders." I see some people I classify as "crank and spank," and I disagree with their methods, but at worst, they tend to overuse drawreins and use the whip as a first, rather than last resort. I, personally, would not ride that way, but I have RARELY (like, never), see any supposedly decent dressage trainer abuse a horse in the way that these NH gurus maintain ALL "dressage riders" do. (LP being the worst in this regard -whoo!whoo! trainwreck a'comin. *G*)

I don't doubt that some such exist, but to condemn the vast majority of us as being vicious and nasty with our horses because we choose to "do dressage" is a really broad generalization that is about as valid as claiming that EVERY western pleasure rider nerve blocks his/her horse's tail, or every reiner uses vicious bits and just yanks on their horses mouth.

Besides, many of the borderline abusive DQ's I've seen are generally corrected when they start to work with REALLY BNTs (like Balkenhol). I saw one FEI level trainer constantly corrected in a calm quiet tone, but with great disapproval at one clinic until she stopped with the crank and spank. At another, I saw Steffan Peters order a local trainer off his (client's) horse if he could not stop riding so badly and do what Mr. Peters was asking (and at the same clinic I saw Mr. Peters display endless patience and kindness with a kid who could barely post). I saw a local trainer who used to use one-sided jerks for SOME purpose (I never could tell what). They weren't nearly as nasty as the "jerks" I've seen some western trainers use, but nevertheless.... Anyway, she produced an FEI level horse, super mover, who would twitch his head every few strides anticipating that jerk. Had to go back to square one and retrain WITHOUT the jerks - people do learn, because in the long run - especially in dressage where you subject yourself to pretty close scrutiny - the short cuts don't pay off in the long run.

[EqTrainer]

LOL!!! I once took lessons with a lady who had a barn full of arabians. She had one that was very offended when she didn't give him her undivided attention in the barn. He would rake his teeth across the bars of his stall. One day she was talking to a friend and myself infront of his stall (her back to him)....Oh, this annoyed him...he started raking and raking...finally without turning around/continued talking without breaking stride.....she took her pepsi and threw it backwards in his face.:lol: Needless to say his feelings were quite hurt and I don't think he could figure out exactly why he was wet...but he stopped raking the bars.

It's all about the timing!

[Mtn trails]

I was picking feet on my young horse and she tried to kick me. Unfortunately the only thing I had was my hoof pick so I threw it at her and yelled. Scared her sufficiently that she was an angel afterwards. You don't mess with the boss hoss. :D

[dalpal]

The one I knew, kept it behind closed doors at home. I would have never known had I not boarded there for a while. You can only keep the charm on for so long day to day at home.

[ESG]

It is not used for leverage when attached to a snaffle bit. It is used to keep the bit from sliding through the horse's mouth when doing lateral bends. All my snaffles have a leather curb strap on them for this reason.

And that will not help you keep from pulling the bit through; it will just give you something else to have in the horse's mouth, if and when you do. :winkgrin:

[blueribbonbaby]

I'm glad you haven't seen it. Unfortunately I have met people who bragged about curing horses that were not forward this way. :no: My point in mentioning dressage in this context was not to point fingers or put down dressage as a discipline (which I also ride in) but to show those who are self rightously pointing at some of the NH trainers as using abusive practices that abuses exist in every discipline.


Yes there are people everywhere that use abusive practices. But the NH trainers that do all the big business, ie...john lyons, clinton anderson etc...they go out in front of big crowds. In these crowds there are people who know how to take what the trainers say and use it correctly. Then there are the people who dont have a clue what they are doing and just go merrily along zapping the crap out of their horses. I have seen a few of these trainers in clinic and they dont tell people that they should have some basic horse training knowledge behind them...its mostly just "buy my stuff and you will have the best horse and you will be the best trainer, just like me" That is where the problem lies.

[Daydream Believer]

I have seen a few of these trainers in clinic and they dont tell people that they should have some basic horse training knowledge behind them...its mostly just "buy my stuff and you will have the best horse and you will be the best trainer, just like me" That is where the problem lies.

You know...I've never heard a trainer say that...not one...not sure who you saw that said that. Yes there are people that watch them that are clueless and probably do misuse their techniques. Just as many dressage riders probably watch Anky ride and go home and crank in their horses heads to their chests....a role model, top trainer, etc... all are setting the example at all times for people with their training methods and their success. I think that the NH people have probably helped way more horses than they've caused problems for when you weigh it out. Those clueless people misusing their techniques would still be clueless and probably misusing someone else's techniques.

[Daydream Believer]

I
I don't doubt that some such exist, but to condemn the vast majority of us as being vicious and nasty with our horses because we choose to "do dressage" is a really broad generalization that is about as valid as claiming that EVERY western pleasure rider nerve blocks his/her horse's tail, or every reiner uses vicious bits and just yanks on their horses mouth.

.

You could not have made my point any better. Why is it OK for someone to come on here and condemn the NH people and trainers the same way? If you go back and read what I wrote about dressage and abuse in the context in which I wrote it, you will see I was only using it as a comparison or an example. I do not believe any discipline is free of abuse but I also will not condemn someone else off handedly because what they do is different than what I am into and that was what was going on here.

[Ghazzu]

You could not have made my point any better. Why is it OK for someone to come on here and condemn the NH people and trainers the same way? If you go back and read what I wrote about dressage and abuse in the context in which I wrote it, you will see I was only using it as a comparison or an example. I do not believe any discipline is free of abuse but I also will not condemn someone else off handedly because what they do is different than what I am into and that was what was going on here.

You know what?
Nowhere in my post did I criticize *any* technique of *any* "NH" guru with the exception of an electronic shocking device.
Get a bloody grip.

[Daydream Believer]

No you didn't but I took major offense to the label you gave to people who followed a certain NH guru. Calling someone a monkey with a razorblade is a pretty derogatory thing to do. How would you feel if the tables were turned?

I know a few "trainerless monkeys" that you put down with your label...and they are not stupid people. They are trying their best to do their best by their horses and these are the type of people who make up the vast majority of horse people out there...not professionals like you and me. Will they make some mistakes? Sure..I did too and I still do but at least they are trying to learn a better way. Scorning them is not the answer.

[Ghazzu]

No you didn't but I took major offense to the label you gave to people who followed a certain NH guru. Calling someone a monkey with a razorblade is a pretty derogatory thing to do. How would you feel if the tables were turned?

I know a few "trainerless monkeys" that you put down with your label...and they are not stupid people. They are trying their best to do their best by their horses and these are the type of people who make up the vast majority of horse people out there...not professionals like you and me. Will they make some mistakes? Sure..I did too and I still do but at least they are trying to learn a better way. Scorning them is not the answer.

Sugar, if it makes you happy to think that's what I wrote and that's what I meant, by all means, carry on.

[Daydream Believer]

Sugar, if it makes you happy to think that's what I wrote and that's what I meant, by all means, carry on.

:rolleyes: :lol:

[La Gringa]

Why don't you all agree to disagree and move on?

I don't know all that much about JL except for the stuff I have read, and heard, and now seen. I have taken a clinic with Buck Brannaman, and have attended Parelli and CA clinics.

I liked CA and Brannaman the best, but that's me. Do I know everything about these guys methods? No. I was just an observer, as were my friends last weekend. We all went in interested to see what he does. We all left very dissappointed.

That is the point of my post.

[ESG]

Horses employ "quick fixes" on each other in a herd situation all the time.

And when we are equal to a horse in size and strength, to deliver one of those "quick fixes" with a force and timing they understand, then that might be effective. Until then, we're stuck with training. ;)

JMO. :cool:

[Percheron X]

Kohlrabi fix

[cgbighat1]

Nothing better than shaved monkey:D

[MistyBlue]

Hate to say it and chime in here since I don't really have much feelings either way on "NH" gurus...except that the "Natural" part is basically common horse sense and most trainers who've spent time around horses should have that whether they have videos, books or gadgets or not. I think the NH thing is a wonderful example of genius type marketing since the horse world is heavy with idealistic folk...but the training methods when applied by an experienced horse person (whether pro or ammy or whatever) work well.
However...I have to admit that the *vast* majority of messed up horse and owner combos I've met over the years have been NH followers. I've seen the videos, read some of the books and seen a few mini-clinics at places like the Equine Affaire...and at no time in any of those venues does the NH guru state that the person handling the horse and attempting to apply these techniques should also *not* be a rank newbie horse owner. It's not directly marketed to the green horse person...they're marketing teams I'm sure told them to never directly market to green people for safety's sake. However it's rather blatantly indirectly marketed to those who need a real live trainer (of NH or non-NH background) helping them instead of trying to train by video. Many I've met using these videos and books are ones who have the wrong horse for their experience level or for their chosen riding style and are hoping the NH style will fix that. Sometimes it does, but rarely if the person doesn't have much equine experience. Read the ads in the magazines...I've seen a handful of them as testimonials from owners who got the videos, saw a clinic and bought the books and now can enjoy their perfectly behaved horse that was previously trying to kill them. Only a few ads mention having help with an actual human trainer. Many ads then say this owner who had fabulous success training through a video are now certified/certifying themselves to be an NH trainer themselves. So not only do these marketing tools fix your unrideable horse...they'll give you a new career too. :o Hogwash, and the marketing ruins many a horse through the naive, caring and well meaning owners.

[MistyBlue]

Here's some ad copy:
Parelli. Nowhere does it say to work with a certified trainer to start this program. And these are the claims for your very first video training package:
Antsy (won't stand still), arena sour, backing up on ground, backing up riding, biting, bridling difficulties, bored, mild bucking, charging, cinchy, claustrophobic, cold-backed, cow-kicking, crowding, defensive, dirty natured, disobedient, disrespectful, dominates you, dull, ear shy, ewe-necked, girthy, girth-proud, hard headed, head shy, high headed, hosing/washing, insensitive, runs over you, kicks people, kicks stable wall, kicks in the trailer, lays down when you don't want it, doesn't lead well, lungeing problems, won't stand still for mounting, bites when mounting, mouthy, nasty, naughty, numb-sided, obstinate, one-sided, opposition reflex, pushy, rears, resistant to communication, restless, rude, no self control on the ground, won't go sideways, kicks out/rears when going sideways, spoiled, hard to stop, won't stop, strikes, stubborn, sulky, sulls up, tail tension, tense, won't tie, unfriendly, won't walk or trot on a loose rein, water fears, spooking, to name just a few!!

THIS is the type of behavior a horse has that's not being handled by an experienced horseperson...and it's almost all very dangerous behavior. Not something that should be marketed to an inexperienced horse owner as a "fix all" for possible life threatening behavior. The claims are that Video One;Getting Started will fix all these behaviors, no mention of having real human help.

John Lyons:
Starting out, first video. For unbroke horses and owners new to horses:
John Lyons Ground Control Manual & The Best Start For Unbroke Horses.
Whether you are new to horses or looking for a stronger connection, this is where it all begins!
Yeah, okay. Not marketed to newbie horse owners buying unbroke horses. No mention anywhere of finding a certified trainer to keep you alive or to not ruin your horse.

Monty Roberts, Intro into horses:

From My Hands To Yours shares Monty's Join-Up® horse training methods with you, both on the ground and under saddle. You'll learn to work with your horse's remedial behavior such as:

Biting
Pulling back
Rearing
Bucking
And more!Basic movements such as, stopping, turning and changing leads are also included. Monty's methods are meticulously described so you can apply his hard earned knowledge

So the owner can apply this...if the owner needs a book to tell them how to stop their horse from taking chunks out of them and to keep them from rearing either from the ground or under saddle....then that owner should be working with a real human and not a book/video so they stay alive. Alive is good. Again, no mention anywhere in the marketing that if your horse is acting dangerously then they should seek/hire a certified trainer in their methods. If they did that....the videos and books wouldn't sell now, would they?

This is my only beef with NH...not that their methods are dumb, not that their methods don't work and not that their trainers aren't extremely helpful. But who can read these actual marketing ads found on their own websites and think that this is safe, effective or not out for *only* income?

[MistyBlue]

Yes, but the warnings are in the video or given out by certified trainers...*not* in the marketing or in the ads or on the video jackets. Because this way the people have already purchased them before finding out that information. The purchasing info states that a perfectly new to horses person can effectively start an unbroke horse. Not until they get the video home, after paying for it and the shipping, do they find out that there might be a danger. And the suggestion to get professional help is inside the video or at a clinic...not on the marketing that sells the products. A caveat about not getting hurt being the number one priority isn't exactly a safe guard, that's common sense.
Off the top of my head I can name 9 PMU horses in my small town with a population of only 6000 people that were bought by new to horses people (almost everyone in town has horses, every lot is equine approved because every lot must be 2 acres minimum and the equine keeping rule is a 2 acre lot) that were purchased because they were cute babies for very cheap and they thought through the marketing ploys of Lyons and the other NH trainers that they would be able to safely and successfully raise and train a baby horse through books and videos instead of hiring a trainer. These 9 that I know well enough to know their names are all potentially or obviously dangerous animals. Owners have been hurt or scared witless and now these are growing/grown animals with little to no training at all. These are all NH dropouts. :( I go to the couple of small local auctions here and see more of them going through...few even properly halter broke and with fed up owners and it scares me how many of those are possible NH dropouts.
NH works...I'm not argueing that. But the products are marketed directly to rank green owners with promises they cannot keep and are ruining possibly as many animals as they are helping. At least from my personal experience.

[La Gringa]

NH works...I'm not argueing that. But the products are marketed directly to rank green owners with promises they cannot keep and are ruining possibly as many animals as they are helping. At least from my personal experience.

I think that itself is a correct and scary statement. If rank green owners go to a clinic and see someone like John Lyons pull a bit through the mouth that is causing extreme discomfort, and doesn't fix it right away, they learn that this is correct horse training. That is wrong. I don't care what dicipline you ride in.

Also, if they hear the negative comments coming from JL, they are going to form an opinion of the other diciplines just from that possibly, and not see what things are really like for themselves.

There are bad trainers and things that go on in all diciplines. Someone like JL who people are going to, to really learn something from, really shouldn't be doing this. I for one, really wanted to learn something, maybe I was foolish in thinking in a venue like this I would. I was so disgusted with it, I left in the middle of the outdoor session. I got nothing out of it except a bad impression of JL. There is something wrong here.

[Daydream Believer]

I am trying to recall if CA ever states anything like that in his literature or not...ie "buy my stuff and you will be an expert." I know there are warnings of course in the DVD's but I never thought of him marketing to beginners at all. I do remember him stating in his clinic several times that people should be familiar with horses before attempting his training methods and seek help if they don't at least have some basic horsemanship. By far CA's biggest market is the western crowd versus the english folks but I can say that at his clinic the vast majority of folks I met were the pleasure riding folks who way out number us sport horse people probably 100-1. I agree that in that group are more likely to be rank beginners attempting to do things on their own than you might see in a HJ or dressage barn...but you do have to start somewhere.

I remember being one of those clueless beginners once too as a 13 year old kid that my parents bought a pony for. I read ever single thing I could get my hands on and back then, there weren't many videos yet...just books. I joined 4-H which was a little help but not much. Most of what I learned up until going to Potomac Horse Center at 19 years old was self taught. I took lessons briefly at a HJ barn but my parents could not afford them for long. My point at telling you my early history was that I was just like the people you are talking about. I would have killed to have the tools people today have in DVD's, clinics, and guru's to learn from. I was probably at a much greater risk of killing myself than they are because I was very much on my own. I did not explore NH training until the mid 1990's when I got my first mustang and realized that I needed a bit more asssitance in dealing with this horse than a standard domesticated horse. It worked really well for me and since then I have learned what I can from many different folks and it has helped me become a better trainer.

What makes me crazy is that so often total beginners end up with horses like the PMU's and the BLM mustangs and no one ever warns them what they are getting into. Wild draft babies are formidable as well as any truly feral horse. Selling horses like that to beginner horse people ought to be illegal or at least people should have to prove some competence before being able to adopt a wild horse, etc... I will at least give credit to these people who are trying to learn any way they can either by DVD's or whatever for that even if they were foolish enough to get into horse ownership without some research first.

[MistyBlue]

Clinton Anderson's marketing hasn't stated that a new to horses person can fix dangerous horses. Right in the marketing it states that starting new horses can be dangerous. Nowhere does it state that a trainer should be contacted in the marketing, but his is one of the few marketing styles I've seen that does warn that this can be dangerous. So at least it's a warning and a rank green horse owner can make a better informed decision on whether or not it's advisable for them to try to break a horse or buy a baby.

Same with Buck Brannaman...his marketing does not state that just anyone can handle issues with horses. His also doesn't state to get a trainer for problem issues...but his intro to his products on his site states quite clearly the dangers involved being new to horses:
"I've started horses since I was 12 years old and have been bit, kicked, bucked off and run over. I've tried every physical means to contain my horse in an effort to keep from getting myself killed.
I started to realize that things would come much easier for me once I learned why a horse does what he does. This method works well for me because of the kinship that develops between horse and rider."

He also seems to be more western based...but I'd bet both of these NH trainer's methods work on any discipline. These are the two NH folks I know about that I have much more respect for as they add caveats in their marketing on their own websites right up front that this can be dangerous, and *nowhere* does it imply that a rank newbie buying these products can efectively and safely train a rank green or dangerous horse.

I understand marketing and business...the idea of marketing for highest return is to appeal to the widest possible audience and imply but not promise ridiculous results. Every product does that...usually through creative wording. Look at all the product commercials stating things like "lose UP TO 20 lbs the first month"...their protecting thier butts by saying up to, you could lose 1 lb and that still keeps their advertising valid. I don't have issues with marketing for maximum return, it's only normal that a successful business wants to make money. But there's a HUGE difference in implying to someone trying to lose 10 lbs of holiday weight that they can than implying to someone who's not equine savvy that they can train out dangerous behavior or start a horse. If the first consumer doesn't lose those 10 lbs of Christmas cookie weight...they'll be disappointed but they'll live. If the second consumer tries to stop a new horse from rearing, biting, charging and striking at them when they've only had a couple trail rides in their life through the use of a video...well, I just find it blatantly irresponsible advertising that can get many an adult or child hurt or worse. :(

[Sandy M]

You could not have made my point any better. Why is it OK for someone to come on here and condemn the NH people and trainers the same way? If you go back and read what I wrote about dressage and abuse in the context in which I wrote it, you will see I was only using it as a comparison or an example. I do not believe any discipline is free of abuse but I also will not condemn someone else off handedly because what they do is different than what I am into and that was what was going on here.


I don't condemn NH, but I think it is marketed in a way that makes it ineffective for the newbies to horses, and while it is probably better than them getting NO trainer assistance, it leads them to think they can do more than they can (unless they are willing to sign up for the long term - and then we get into the when do you actually ride the horse question in some cases). We've had plenty of testimony about all the ill-mannered NH "trained" horses - balanced by plenty of people who love NH - but most of the lovers of NH were already pretty good horseman to start with.

I think a big difference between NH trainers (some of which are excellent and I LOVE Mark Rashid) and dressage trainers is that dressage trainers don't present some simple program with "games" and videos and carrot sticks (or whatever CA calls HIS sticks), etc. and give the impression that just do "this" and "that" and you, too, will be a dressage trainer. No, they demand long-term, structured, progressive, HARD work (and it costs, too) over YEARS. Stuff that requires a love of detail and concentration and feel - not games. (and for what it's worth, I saw an illustrated article by CA about lungeing - and, well, it's not the way I would lunge MY horse.)

Some NH guys (and I'm not saying ALL) DO seem to say, "just do this and you'll be fine." While some dressage trainers may be "jealous" of their prerogative to hold on to a student/client, and may dis other trainer(s) to their clients, it's more often a case of professional jealous and guarding their livelihood - not dissing the entire discipline. They are dealing with a small group of people, working with them, and not making a public declaration to the unwashed plebs that their way is right and western, NH, or H/J, or... whatever, is wrong.

[kaluha2]

Daydream Believer:

First of all---there is no need to use foul language because someone doesn't see eye to eye with you on everything. Afterall, we're just talking horses, not how to cure cancer, or anything of real significance.

Thirty years is a long time to watch less than stellar "trainers". Poor you. Again, get out more because honestly, there really are excellent trainers out there that don't beat horses, don't use cattle prods, and don't bloody a horses sides. How can you want to be part of a sport that you feel is surrounded with such negativity and horribly cruel riders?

I have never in all my years worked with any dressage trainer that bends a horses neck to the riders knee. NEVER. Nor have I worked with anyone that sticks a horses chin on it's chest. I'm sure that's because they don't want a horse backed off. And honestly, I have never had a trainer advocate longeing a horse so much just so it can be ridden.

And you say that the NH guys flex the horses neck to the riders knee and chest to teach a horse to give to pressure to prepare a horse for the one rein stop ? We use to call that rubber necking and putting a horse behind the bit, not softening nor flexibility, and it was very frowned on. I wonder when this became acceptable "training" and what was used on a bolting horse before CL taught the one rein stop which so many feel today they just can't live without.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not swayed by his accent and I don't necessarily find him to be that easy on the eyes. I find him a bit abrupt with horses. Not my style. But that's fine if it's yours and you like him and his methods work for you.

[Daydream Believer]

You make good points Sandy. Dressage is a very different discipline than trail riding which is, as I stated earlier, the vast majority of the folks who follow the NH folks. Dressage attracts people that are into trying for perfection and dedicated to long term training programs...but we are the minority. Most horsepeople are just recreational riders who ride on the weekends and they 90% of the time do not seek formal instruction. I do see more dressage riders into Parelli than the others interestingly including one person who boards with me. She felt CA was too rough and Parelli suits her better whereas I saw how effective CA was I have little interest in Parelli...we both saw different things in the same clinic.

The article you saw about lunging was "Lunging for Respect" and it is a very different way of lunging and done for a different purpose than dressage lunging. I have used it with my babies and then moved on to standard lunging...it is a good tool. I hate to even call it lunging...it's more like round penning without the pen and all about discipline and control which many horses need a healthy dose of at some point.

I am mentoring some folks who are trail riders who have bought two babies from me and helping teach them better horsemanship. They brought their yearling (a colt I bred and sold a year ago to them) up to my place a few weeks ago (a five hour drive) and asked me to help them. He was getting pushy and difficult at times...and this is a sweet laid back gelding but just a typical yearling. I showed them some of the most basic ground control techniques that CA uses and worked with the baby and then I had them work him while I helped them. They left with a more respectful and attentive horse and some DVD's I lent them to watch and learn more from. If I know these people...they will come back in a few months with a totally different and much improved baby. While they are beginners, they try very very hard and oftentimes it is a program like CA or JL can package and sell that helps them learn best and that is why I don't object to their marketing to this crowd in general. These friends of mine are not "new" to horses and already owned several before, but again, they lack that formal training I have been lucky enough to have as well as experience with youngsters. I am glad they are trying to improve their abilities at least instead of letting the babies go wild.

[Daydream Believer]

Daydream Believer:

First of all---there is no need to use foul language because someone doesn't see eye to eye with you on everything.

Sorry if my language offended you. I was not directing my language at anyone in partcular. Next time I will just say "excrement" instead. ;)

Thirty years is a long time to watch less than stellar "trainers". Poor you. Again, get out more because honestly, there really are excellent trainers out there that don't beat horses, don't use cattle prods, and don't bloody a horses sides. How can you want to be part of a sport that you feel is surrounded with such negativity and horribly cruel riders?.

Great sarcasm. :winkgrin: I happen to work with someone who is a very gentle and good trainer and I am one as well. I am not just wearing blinders to the abuses in dressage while pointing my fingers at others like you are. I've been around a good while and I've seen alot and trust me...there are times when I wonder why I bother but I do my own thing and try to have fun.

I have never in all my years worked with any dressage trainer that bends a horses neck to the riders knee. NEVER. Nor have I worked with anyone that sticks a horses chin on it's chest. I'm sure that's because they don't want a horse backed off. And honestly, I have never had a trainer advocate longeing a horse so much just so it can be ridden. .

All I can say is open your eyes. :no: Look at our top dressage riders if you want to see some horses with chins on their chest. Do a search on Youtube for Rollkur and watch the warmup videos....search on this forum and you will find links to lots and lots of pictures that will offend your gentle sensibilities. If you still feel like dressage is "kinder and gentler" after watching that than NH or western riding than you are lying to yourself. :no:

Here I saved you the trouble of searching for it...here are some videos to watch. Now please tell me you have the right to look down on another discipline that "puts a horse's chin on their chest" after watching these. :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rollkur

There are good and bad trainers in every discipline. That is the only point I was trying to make...not to insult every dressage rider out there who is not using abusive training like yourself...and my comments were not directed at anyone personally as accusing them of being abusive trainers. I say that as you seem to be taking a lot of what I have said as some personal attack on you....and it was never meant that way. There are plenty of dressage riders (like Dalpal described) that are very rough though and I find it very hypocritical when someone points fingers at another discipline when their own has problems as well. Again..please go watch the videos.

And you say that the NH guys flex the horses neck to the riders knee and chest to teach a horse to give to pressure to prepare a horse for the one rein stop ? We use to call that rubber necking and putting a horse behind the bit, not softening nor flexibility, and it was very frowned on. I wonder when this became acceptable "training" and what was used on a bolting horse before CL taught the one rein stop which so many feel today they just can't live without..

Again...you are judging another discipline from your perspective. Not everyone cares about horses being on the bit or wants that. Many many more people only want to get on and go for a trail ride safely. That one rein stop is a tool...just like your side reins are...nothing more and nothing less. Please try and open your mind that there are other ways to do things that might conflict with classical dressage training and not everyone in the world is into classical dressage. That is all I am trying to get across to you and to some others in this discussion.

[Sandy M]

I remember being one of those clueless beginners once too as a 13 year old kid that my parents bought a pony for. I read ever single thing I could get my hands on and back then, there weren't many videos yet...just books......
I will at least give credit to these people who are trying to learn any way they can either by DVD's or whatever for that even if they were foolish enough to get into horse ownership without some research first.

This is quite true, but rather than truly help, I think many (again, not ALL) NH types take advantage of this. While I have had horses for 35+ years, I did not own a horse until I was self-supporting. When I was a horse crazy kid I read EVERYTHING horse. Yeah, "The Black Stallion," but also Muesler, Seunig, D'Endrody, Chamberlain, DeCarpentry, Podhajsky, Gordon Wright, Littauer, Self, and later GM, Steinkraus, John Richard Young, Jim Wofford, Sheila Wilcox, etc. A lot of it was "Greek to me," but I persevered. I had vet school texts like Kay's "The Horse," so I learned about feeding, stable management, health problems. I think one nice guy at the library used to ORDER new horse books for me, because I was plowing through everything they had! Nice guy. I went to the Polo Fields and "walked hots" (and once in a while got to RIDE them at the walk!!!) Hung out at the police stables, etc. Though my first horse wasn't much, considering my budget, she was okay. Physically talented, but it turned out that she was better suited for endurance than jumping (mentally). She was green, but well started and I continued with the lessons I had been taking since childhood - but now on my OWN horse (oh joy!) I would not have attempted to train her on my own without assistance or merely by viewing videos (had such been available). Five or six horses later (owned) and many many many more ridden/schooled that I didn't own, I am still learning.....Perhaps we can only blame some NH disasters on the perceived "instant gratification" mentality that seems to exist with many today: People who would never THINK of buying a car, stereo, etc. without advice or at least doing some research, rush out and buy a PMU horse or a baby* (because it's cute and cheaper)... and then end up in trouble, and rather than fork out the money for a full-time trainer to straighten out the problem, look for a quick fix with videos and sticks and games. Some NH people may take advantage of this situation, but they didn't create it. I think it happens a little less in other disciplines because you usually don't get "into" dressage or jumpers or eventing or reining without having to truly ride - maybe badly, maybe well - but you end up forking over the bucks and being taught, on the horse (or schoolmasters) if you truly want to "do" those disciplines (as opposed to hacking down the trail). Of course, I add the caveat that I expect my dressage/jumper/eventing whatever horses to also be good trail horses, regardless.....

*with all my years, I am presently gripped by recurring nerves because I just bought an unbroke two year old...so I can't IMAGINE some greenie started with a weanling working only with a video or occasional clinic. (he's staying with the breeder until he's 3). Even now, I'm readjusting my thinking, handling, positioning, not because I don't horse handle properly, but because I know that I will get HURT if I handle this horse with the casualness with which I do my well-trained (by me, with assistance) old guy who is Mr. Reliable.

[Daydream Believer]

I think you are right...we live in a time of instant gratification and the "quick fix." You make some valid points. Like I said before...maybe people should have to qualify to be horse owners especially the wild unhandled ones like the BLM'ers? All you have to do to get a mustang is show that you have an adequate facility for them...not prove you have a clue. That is how I acquired my BLM mustang. He was adopted by some well meaning clueless people for a 9 year old child. 2 years later, he was waiting for the meat truck to come and get him when I found him. It was not his fault and he went on to be a wonderful riding pony with training....but so often it seems like horses pay the price doesn't it?

It sounds like you have a good plan and the right attitude for training your baby. You are wise to be careful. Good luck with his training.

[La Gringa]

Forgive me if this is redundant but -

Did "YOU" actually hear the comments with your own ears or are you relaying 2nd hand info from your friend who heard it? Did you say the comments were directed toward Jane Savoie?

In the January 2006 issue of Perfect Horse (John Lyons magazine), Jane Savoie has an article in there. Just curious why JL would be badmouthing and pissing off a lady who contributes to his magazine?? That doesn't sound right to me.

Many times things are mis-interpreted, or not heard properly and I'm trying to figure out exactly WHAT was said by JL to Jane and who heard him say it.

I didn't hear it, but I was standing right there. I saw the reaction of Jane and her students. My friend is American born, has ridden all her life. She lives in South America now, and has nothing to do with JL or any NH methods. What reason would she have to say something like that if it didn't happen?

I personally heard the comments made in the outdoor arena, myself. They were just as rude. Sorry but it was unmistakeable.

I wonder why he did it too.

I also wonder why, which is really more important to me than the comments anyway, he didn't fix that snaffle when someone told him about it right away? Why did she just leave it, jabbing the horse in the mouth?

[Sandy M]

Aaah! But the big difference here is that Dressage is a DISCIPLINE. John Lyons, Parelli, Anderson, etc. are not disciplines. They are people with a method for breaking and training horses to tie, trailer, go on the trail, walk over tarps, etc.

It is impossible to teach a discipline through watching a video tape. But you CAN teach your horse to lead over a tarp through watching a tape. And that's the big difference.

All these NH, at home programs, are more about desensitizing your horse, teaching him to tie, etc. You aren't learning how to ride a discipline. It's just very very basic stuff. And even JL's riding manual is very basic. Walk, stop, turn, back up, pick up the left lead.

Yes, his magazine has training articles just like Practical Horseman, Equus, and Dressage Today do on lead changes, collected canter, etc. but you don't critize those OTHER magazines for providing training articles, so why do people bash the NH guys for publishing riding articles too???

I just don't get that. Any newb could pick up an Equus at the tack shop and read the article on jumping a gymnastics course. They could hop on old Pokey and try to jump a course and get themselves killed. But nobody ever critizes those "big name" magazines. So what gives???


But too many people assume that NH is all there is. Yup, they don't go on to "do" a discipline. But many NH promoters give these newbies the impression that that's all there is. And a clinic-buy-my-video-buy-my-stick and you're set- is hardly the same as an article in a magazine. Frankly, I get amused by articles in mags like "Dressage Today" about "How to Do Canter Zig-Zags," as if someone who is riding third level would be working trainerless and without a clue as to how to do changes. Sure, there might be some nugget of information to polish up the movement - but people truly interested in a discpline merely supplement their formal instruction with magazine articles and I don't think the magazine articles present themselves as the be-all and end-all to learn these skills - but NH people often do so present themselves.

[Sandy M]

I think you are right...we live in a time of instant gratification and the "quick fix." You make some valid points. Like I said before...maybe people should have to qualify to be horse owners especially the wild unhandled ones like the BLM'ers? All you have to do to get a mustang is show that you have an adequate facility for them...not prove you have a clue. That is how I acquired my BLM mustang. He was adopted by some well meaning clueless people for a 9 year old child. 2 years later, he was waiting for the meat truck to come and get him when I found him. It was not his fault and he went on to be a wonderful riding pony with training....but so often it seems like horses pay the price doesn't it?

It sounds like you have a good plan and the right attitude for training your baby. You are wise to be careful. Good luck with his training.

Oh, that is soooooo true. I suppose the BLM argument would be, however, that such a screening process would be too time consuming and expensive, and that as it is, at least SOME of the horses get good homes that they would not otherwise have. Probably the better program is the one where the horses go to prisons where the horses rehab the prisoners while the prisoners rehab the horses. If more of those horses were available - who at least aren't TOTALLY green, those newbies who purchase BLM horses would probably have a better chance to succeed as horsemen (though even the prison trained horses are pretty green, but at least they are more than halter broken).


Thanks for your kind wishes. I will, undoubtedly, send the youngster to a colt starter who uses commonsense (perhaps NH!!! *icon for rolling eyes*) for a 30-60 day start, and then work with my trainer. Money permitting, perhaps another 30 days with a dressage trainer before I take him on full time (with lessons).

[fatmare]

I didn't hear it, but I was standing right there. I saw the reaction of Jane and her students. My friend is American born, has ridden all her life. She lives in South America now, and has nothing to do with JL or any NH methods. What reason would she have to say something like that if it didn't happen?

I personally heard the comments made in the outdoor arena, myself. They were just as rude. Sorry but it was unmistakeable.



I'm not a huge JL fan (the marriage to the bit for EVERYTHING, including groundwork, and the constant preaching just irritate me), but I couldn't help but think at first that the offensive comments he made were meant in a more playful, kidding manner. I guess not, though. Sounds like something's happened to affect either his judgement or his business sense.

[Sandy M]

But Sandy - my point is -
But who do you hire when you want the horse to walk over a tarp, or tie to a post, or walk in the trailer? You don't hire a dressage trainer, a wp trainer, a hunter trainer, etc. You hire a cowboy, a NH guy, a "colt starter," a general "horse trainer" etc.

And so of course those people get the bad name of teaching newbs how to work a horse on the ground. Because who the heck else does it?!? Obviously a newb will generally be the one hiring somebody, or taking a class, or buying a book to teach a horse how to go in a trailer. Because most experienced horsemen that have ridden, lessoned, shown, their entire life will figure out some way to get a horse in a trailer.

It's its like a Catch 22. SOMEBODY has to teach the newbs how to clipper a horse, and the fancy dressage trainer won't do it, so who will?? It's almost like NH trainers are the regular family doctors that don't really specialize in anything, but the other trainers are the specialists that do dressage, hunt seat, western pleasure, etc. in detail. Somewhere along the line the horse and the owner have to learn all the little ground details of back over, step this way, long line that way, pick up your feet, etc. and that all gets done at the hands of somebody like NH trainer or general colt starter. And then they're the ones that end up with the bad rap of - well they never teach people how to ride their horse - they always work with beginners - etc. It's just not a fair criticism.


I agree with what Mutable said. That's how I learned. Not by videos and sticks and round pens.

The problem is not that NH is not a discipline, the problem is NH, which, in truth, is only commonsense horsemanship, is being presented as something new and "different" and as an end in itself AND as superior to actual disciplines. YOU don't perceive it that way because you use it as intended, and, I am sure, didn't come to NH with no previous experience and indeed, most likely use it as a supplement to your existing skills, or to deal with problems with which you don't have experience. You were probably doing NH long before anyone called it that and...... MARKETED it.

Perhaps this "end in itself and the ONLY way" is not the intention of most NH practitioners (certainly not of Mr. Rashid, but he also doesn't present himself as NH but as - commonsense), but that's how it comes off. Believe me, when you've evented to a moderately high level (prelim/intermediate), done jumpers to A/O heights, and are now doing dressage (while all the while trail riding), it frosts ones butt to have some Parelli-devotee telling you that you're doing it "all wrong," because their NH guru has dissed dressage, or hunters, or whatever.

At 61 years of age, you can darn well bet I'll send my new gelding to a colt starter or cowboy (although, there is a nice European colt starter who may be available by next year near the breeder from whom I purchased this horse), but that's, as you say, just for the basics of being a horse, leading, tying, loading, and I don't denigrate horseman with the ability and experience to teach those skills. It's the worshipfulness and exclusiveness that so many devotees of NH seem to develop (whether intended or not), that put me (and others) off - that idea of NH as an end in itself.

[SBT]

Ooh, another NH trainwreck! I'll get the popcorn. :yes: DGRH, do you have any peeps Ted doesn't know about? ;)

I'd offer leftover Halloween candy, too, but...uh...there is no more. :winkgrin:

[Sandy M]

Ooh, another NH trainwreck! I'll get the popcorn. :yes: DGRH, do you have any peeps Ted doesn't know about? ;)

I'd offer leftover Halloween candy, too, but...uh...there is no more. :winkgrin:

Yahhhh... it IS heading that way, isn't it? Usually JL doesn't get involved in these - mostly just Parelli or Monty Roberts. I prefer some cheddar/crackers/salami to popcorn... but I do have some halloween peeps.....*G*

[hundredacres]

I'm just riding this derailed topic to hell I guess...but my .02

When I got back into horses after a 15 year break I looked for help but all I could find were idiots and short cuts. I was originally taught by cowboys with some pretty mean tactics and I was afraid (at a ripe old age) to use them. I was given a Parelli kit and used it for a while until fate blessed me with an amazing dressage trainer.

I do not prescribe to NH methods as they are packaged but I'll tell you what....reading Pat Parelli's books made me reconsider what I *thought* I knew about horses and it made me consider that what I knew was wrong (and sometimes dangerous and even cruel)...and had I not had my eyes opened, I never would have sought more help and found an amazing trainer that has not only changed my horse skills and knowledge, but changed my life. I will forever recognize the changes in my life that started by reading a Pat Parelli book. I didn't need to buy into the lifestyle to get the message.

These arguments are silly. If NH is so horrid, than what is the Big Lick world? What is training that inflicts pain on horses? Please....there are other horse training methods to fight over. NH just isn't worth it.

[hundredacres]

No kidding TS...horse stuff is expensive. Period. Training is expensive, books are expensive, tack is ridiculously expensive.

Point me to the trainer that can get me riding my horse through the woods on the buckle without spending a dime to train her to get that way....whatever that method is called...I'll do it ;). I will sell my soul to their leader :).

[Sandy M]

But no one says you MUST have an Anky or Isabel saddle to ride dressage correctly. Most dressage and H/J tack, expensive or not, is a matter of choice and what is the "in" style. No practitioner of the discipline says you CANNOT perform without an Isabel saddle, can't jump without a Pessoa saddle. Now you, individually, can say that one can go to TS and approximate the Parelli stuff or CA stuff easily enough - and that is true - but they are the ones heavily marketing the idea that you MUST use their $$$ products. One can buy quite a nice dressage whip for much less than a "carrot stick." If you want to go for the jeweled and sterling silver tipped ones, be my guest. LOL

Branded products are nothing new (and everything horse is fairly expensive) - but the idea that you MUST have that SPECIAL rope halter, MUST have that white/carrot whatever stick in order to train/be a horseman/do whatever brand of NH correctly.....That's the exploitative (is that the right word - or is it even a word?) part.

And you must really have a dearth of decent trainers in your area. I've ridden since I was 10 and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the trainer I worked with - from saddle seat (AAargh! that didn't last long!) to H/J to eventing to dressage - INSISTED on general horsemanship training as well. Most insisted that students groom and saddle their lesson horses, and horses were inspected before riders mounted, and unless the horse was being used for a second lesson, students unsaddled and groomed after as well. And i was around 9 or 10 at the time, struggling to heave a park saddle up on a 16+ hand mixed breed school horse. You cleaned saddles and stalls, and when you cleaned a bridle (including doubles) you took them completely apart and reassembled them (talk about a nightmare for a 10 year old!)

Around here, the main determining factor is how much you can afford to spend - do you want to work with the gal who has been on the Olympic long list, or do you want to work with the more local gal (or guy) who has all their USDF Medals or the one who's quite competent up to 3rd level? Do you want to work with the eventing guy who was shortlisted, or the European guy who is currently very successful or the local who teaches stable management and gives up/down lessons? Do you want to work with the new Irish jumper trainer, or the local trainer who shows (with his clients) successfuly at the at big shows like Indio and The Oaks, or a nice local trainer who accommodate his client's budgets with lower level showing? $$$ is the determining factor in access, but around here, you usually can find someone decent that fits your budget. I'm sincerely sad that in your area good training is so hard to find. I'm at a barn with a trainer I would not choose to work with - so I put the beloved nag in a trailer and drive 40 mins to one I like. Fortunately, a BNT recently moved in next door, so I MAY get an opportunity to work with her in the future and save a little in travel costs.

[Sandy M]

But if you trained with Isabell Werth, don't you suspect she would push, hint, or outright demand that you use HER saddle? I can't imagine that she would be just perfectly happy with you saying "No thanks, I like my Stuuben." I mean - she says that her saddle is comfortable for horse and rider, so what would be your problem that you wouldn't buy her saddle?


What a kind thought! That I would get to train with Isabell Werth. Wonder what she'd think of a Appaloosa? ROFLOL I doubt she would push for people to buy whatever brand of saddle - by the time you've reach the level of training with the big names, you probably have your own opinions too - and while I can see the situation of, "Oh you need a new saddle, why not try mine...." I seriously doubt that these people promote such purchases that heavily. They are more likely paid a fairly good sum to endorse the saddle(s) but may or may not use them on a daily basis. Some have their names on a couple of different brands. I hardly think they push their students to buy one of each. *G*

[La Gringa]

What EXACTLY did he say in the outdoor arena that you heard yoursef?



I already answered this question in a previous post, go back and read it #61. It wasn't as bad as what he said indoors. What I was most concerned with was the prong stabbing the horse in the mouth for 15 minutes in the outdoor session.

[La Gringa]

I'm not a huge JL fan (the marriage to the bit for EVERYTHING, including groundwork, and the constant preaching just irritate me), but I couldn't help but think at first that the offensive comments he made were meant in a more playful, kidding manner. I guess not, though. Sounds like something's happened to affect either his judgement or his business sense.

I can't read minds, all I know is the reaction that he got from the dressage lady, and the reaction from my friend. Interpretation is often an issue, (not like we EVER have that problem on these boards?)

What I was more concerned about than the comments was the lack of concern over the full cheek snaffle sliding through the mouth, for 5 minutes, then someone notified him of this, and he continued to work the mare for another 15 before he fixed it. The mare was throwing her head up and down, in discomfort, and had mouth issues to begin with.

It made me mad. Sorry, but I think it would make anybody mad. I don't care who the trainer is.

[La Gringa]

No actually, your exact words were "just things like......."

LIKE

You never provided EXACTLY what he said. If you heard it with your own ears and it bothered you so much, then you WOULD remember what he said. And also since you declared that what he said outside wasn't as bad as what he said inside, that would mean that you know EXACTLY what was said inside and outside. But since you can't produce any actual verbiage, word for word, it makes me think that you don't really know WHAT you heard, but you were only assuming ;)

As as someone earlier mentioned - things can be said in jest and taken differently. My friend and I joke back and forth about our horses and such and none of its ever serious.

No I said that about the indoor session. I said that because I didn't hear it myself.

In the outdoor session he said he was "using a dressage whip so he could be on the same level as the dressage trainer."

You are being way to analytical here. Others have said that he is probably getting burned out. I would be too after all these years. The main issue is the bit, and I have said that all along. How do you explain that?

[La Gringa]

Well, no one can tell this because you've already changed it, but in the two posts above you first declared it was 10 minutes, and the next post said 15 minutes.

Now you've changed both posts and one says 5 minutes and the other says 15.

So was it 5, 10, 15, or a combined total of more minutes? You changing the posts makes me think that you don't really know how long it was and that you're guessing.

Nope, I made a typo and fixed it. The whole thing was about 20 minutes. The bit slipped though, someone notified him and then he worked the horse 15 minutes or so longer. I wasn't watching the clock every second. I was right there in front of him in the first row with a very clear view and heard every single word.

It was long enough for many people to get up and leave disgusted.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if the entire thing was 5 minutes... to leave that horse in discomfort after he was notified about the problem is wrong. The horse was being stabbed in the mouth. The bit was so low it was hanging, the curb strap did nothing to stop a full cheek snaffle from slipping all the way through the mouth.

That is sloppy.

[egontoast]

But if you trained with Isabell Werth, don't you suspect she would push, hint, or outright demand that you use HER saddle?

No.

They pay to put her name on the saddle. She doesn't sell the saddles off the back of her truck.

[La Gringa]

I cannot explain it, but first I'd like to see it for myself. Please tell me the exact date and place you saw this. All his clinics are taped and I can get a copy easily.
Saturday afternoon session. Virginia Equine Extravaganza last weekend.

[La Gringa]

Was this the Equine Extravaganza in Richmond VA? (I got that from his website)

Yep.

The indoor sesson was in the morning. I only caught the end of it. The outdoor sesson was at like 3 pm.

[La Gringa]

Someone asked him why he didn't fix the bit... he said it was a cheap bit. That was his explaination to the crowd. I thought it was just not right. I would have fixed it as soon as I was aware of it. It was a easy thing to just fix it and adjust it right. He finally did after about 15 minutes from the time someone told him about it. That was too long for me. The mare was upset and throwing her head all over.

[La Gringa]

I'm on the phone with the Extravaganza Organizer right now and she has no knowledge of this bit through the mouth thing happening. She knows the owners of the people who had horses worked by JL and she heard no complaints, and in fact the owners made special point to tell her how pleased they were with the work he did and how he just worked miracles with their horses.

The only mare worked by John Lyons during the Extravegaza weekend was owned by Irene _____ (not disclosed for her own privacy.) Irene made special point to tell the organizer how pleased she was with John's work with the mare and how much she loved the result. She was very thrilled with the entire experience. The organizer is going to call Irene and talk to her about this bit incident and I am supposed to call her back after she has talked to Irene.

I will post the result of that conversation when I receive it.

She heard no report, saw nothing herself, etc. so at this point I can only conclude that this either did not happen, or that you've blown it way out of porportion.

I was standing right in front of him. It did happen plain as day. I have ridden and owned horses for 30 years. I know when a bit is pulled through a horses mouth. It was a gray arabian mare. They had changed bits on it, from some sort of western bit to a full cheek.

That is very rude of you to hijack this thread. Do you work for JL? It isn't going to change my views nor my reaction even if you post such a thing. What I saw and my interpretation of it is my right, and my opinion. People can do what they want with their horses. I will never take my horses to one of his clinics though.

I was not impressed.

[jgrass]

I will point out again that I saw a very similar thing happen in April 2005 at the Viginia Equine Extranaganza. JL Rode a horse for 15 minutes with the bit pulled completely through the horse's mouth. This was in the "Richmond Arena", probably the Saturday session (too long ago for me to remember exactly. Might have been Friday). That horse also went through having the cheekpiece stabbing it in the mouth before the whole bit pulled through and JL rode with just the bridle cheekpiece in its mouth.

He didn't badmouth that bridle and bit: they were the ones he was selling (as was announced at the beginning of the session).

If you are going to dig up videotapes, look for that one too.

At the same time, the technique he was teaching, using sepentines with a rushy, hollow horse to get it to focus, is something that has turned out to be a very useful tool for me in some situations doing dressage.

For me that session was **memorable**. I couldn't believe anyone would or could ignore a situation like that. That burned itself in my memory pretty well.

I was at the extravaganza this year too, but I was busy with my horses (Theo & Thistle -- doing Carriage Driving stuff) and didn't go to any of the JL clinics. I did see a Jane Savoie clinic that I liked very much and watched a couple of sessions of the "Trainer's Challenge": 3 guys starting untrained horses in the round pen. That was interesting, but kind of off my main course.

[egontoast]

it's fascinating that Too Simple who was not even present would go to all this trouble to call someone who was there and actually saw this -a liar! Let's see, who is more credible? The OP or TS ? That's a tuffy.

PS Your pants are on fire!

[La Gringa]

it's fascinating that Too Simple who was not even present would go to all this trouble to call someone who was there and actually saw this -a liar! Let's see, who is more credible? The OP or TS ? That's a tuffy.

PS Your pants are on fire!

Thank you. I don't think I was hallucinating, I don't do drugs, at least the last time I checked.

I honestly went to see the clinic and wanted to see what this guy was all about. I have never seen him live before. I also have never said on here that he is a horrible trainer, just that I was dissappointed and shocked franky by what I saw and heard this particular day in Richmond.

The rest of the stuff, other people have posted, and back up what I have said here.

I am surprised that she is calling people etc too. The lady that answered the phone was not obvously standing right in front of the demonstration as I was, at that point in time.

[La Gringa]

I wonder how TS explains the horse rolling on the saddle mentioned in the other post. Is she going to call that expo too? :lol:

[LarkspurCO]

IShe knows the owners of the people who had horses worked by JL and she heard no complaints, and in fact the owners made special point to tell her how pleased they were with the work he did and how he just worked miracles with their horses.

I think it's perfectly natural for the people to report a positive experience regardless of what happened with the bit. Maybe they dismissed the incident or didn't even notice (so many people are oblivious to details). Maybe they are so enamored with JL they'd never admit he could make a mistake. After all, they said he worked miracles. Last I knew, miracle work was reserved for deities.

[La Gringa]

I think it's perfectly natural for the people to report a positive experience regardless of what happened with the bit. Maybe they dismissed the incident or didn't even notice (so many people are oblivious to details). Maybe they are so enamored with JL they'd never admit he could make a mistake. After all, they said he worked miracles. Last I knew, miracle work was reserved for deities.

Or maybe this is was one of the rank green horseowners that doesn't know better. That is the worst! They think it's fine that the horse was stabbed in the mouth. No miracle work here, just sloppy inattentiveness.

[Percheron X]

Or perhaps the bit incident was part of the show. Maybe JL thinks exposing a horse to every kind of distraction is a good thing. I went to see a JL certified trainer give an exhibition about 3 years ago. I recall that she made remarks about disliking dressage because the riders are always pulling on the horses face.

But she also mentioned that see thought you could over-desensitize a horse, she said she knew of a horse that was attacked by a dog, and the dog was biting the horses leg and the horse just stood there.

I bet the bit through the mouth was probably part of the JL desensitization philosophy. He was probably making the point that a horse can have something like that go wrong, and you can still keep total control over the horse.

For the record, we've had this all disciplines have good and bad trainers many time before, and the only thing we all ever agree on is that the fundamentals of horse training were developed hundreds of years ago and have changed very little. The reality is that it has all been done before, and these nuevo trainers just keep painting their sticks different colors and branding "good old fashioned" training by a new name in order to sell things.

There's nothing that JL can do that a top trainer at the spanish riding school can't do better.

[La Gringa]

Well if that's part of his desensitivity training, it doesn't sit well with me. It was punishing the mare in the mouth, when she already had issues. Just not my thing.

Is rolling on a brand new saddle desensitizing a horse as well? That sure sounds like expensive training to me. Not only do you pay for the clinic, but you have to replace a new saddle as well?

[egontoast]

He was probably making the point that a horse can have something like that go wrong, and you can still keep total control over the horse.


I took that as tongue in cheek (as opposed to bit in cheek). I mean why not put some crushed glass under the saddle too..

[Percheron X]

Well if that's part of his desensitivity training, it doesn't sit well with me. It was punishing the mare in the mouth, when she already had issues. Just not my thing.

Is rolling on a brand new saddle desensitizing a horse as well? That sure sounds like expensive training to me. Not only do you pay for the clinic, but you have to replace a new saddle as well?

Doesn't impress me either, and the said occurrence actually being desensitivity training on the part of JL may or may not be true. But this explanation is one the would fit your description of the event.

"Real training" is about taking the real life "stuff" that does sometimes happen, and working with it.

I would have stopped immediately and fixed the bit just as you would have. But if I am given an opportunity to work on something with a horse where I feel the horse will benefit, I will do it on the spot (wherever or whenever I'm abel), and so do "most" people who train horses.

The issue I believe you may be alluding to, is one of JL seeming unconcerned with the comfort of the mare where you believe that he should have been. Well that's a slippery slope because there's a whole lot of training devices out there that when used correctly, cause a horse discomfort.

Again the issue then seems to become one of pure training, and the issue/belief/consept of training without causing a horse any discomfort at all.

Unless of course your just trying to say that JL is a very bad man for intentionally hurting the mare, and if that is your point, than just say it.

I personally think JL is a good horseman. I don't think he's perfect, but then nether is anybody else.

[La Gringa]

I wouldn't say he is a bad man, just careless and sloppy on this occasion, like he didn't give a damn. That is the impression I got. I can't judge his character as a man after only 20 miinutes. I was just very dissappointed and lost interest very quickly after seeing it, so I left. I had expected more I guess. I expected to learn something at least.

If the horse owner who paid for that session, was satisfied with the result then I guess all is not bad. I just think it would be more professional of someone of his "level" in this stuff, he is one of the most famous afterall, to take the time to adjust equipment properly. It didn't show a good example for new people or even old people to the horse world. IMHO.

[Percheron X]

I wouldn't say he is a bad man, just careless and sloppy on this occasion, like he didn't give a damn. That is the impression I got. I can't judge his character as a man after only 20 miinutes. I was just very dissappointed and lost interest very quickly after seeing it, so I left. I had expected more I guess. I expected to learn something at least.

If the horse owner who paid for that session, was satisfied with the result then I guess all is not bad. I just think it would be more professional of someone of his "level" in this stuff, he is one of the most famous afterall, to take the time to adjust equipment properly. It didn't show a good example for new people or even old people to the horse world. IMHO.

Very well stated.

I hear what you're saying, and that is a shame that JL did not live up to your expectations that day.

He is a very famous horseman and as such holds a responsibility to set a proper example for those who look up to him.

If he did have a purpose for leaving that bit in the mares mouth, it would have been proper for him to explain it to the audience so all would know.

Thank you for posting what you witnessed so that we may all be the wiser.

I sincerely doubt that JL would have reached the status he has attained if he were not truly caring about the horses he works with.

Let us hope that all is well with JL, and if he does have any issues that are preventing him from handling horses professionally, we may hope that he stops handling horses until he is himself again.

[dalpal]

I didn't see it, but considering there are several other stories about JL clinics on this thread.....I think the OP is giving her honest account of what she saw happened.

But I got a laugh out of the TS post.."I'm on the phone with her RIGHT NOW".:lol:

So I'm imagining the conversation...."Hi, you don't know me, but there is a thread on COTH about the JL clinic. Could you hold while I type that...I'm typing as we speak."

"A COTH member says that JL was being irresponsible in his clinic. Is that true"

Expo person.."I haven't heard about that. Heard good things about JL clinic"...

Okay hold on,while I type that.
What else can you tell me about that Saturday. Okay, okay, how do you spell that, Oh damn, hold on, I spelled "the" with a r...gotta back space...Okay now continue.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

who sings the song.."Too much time on my hands":lol:

I think calling the Expo person third hand was a bit excessive in this case. I understand/appreciate that you wanted to get the facts ma'am:lol. Hell, TS, go to the source, call Johnny L up and ask for his side of the story.:lol:

[La Gringa]

Yes I am positive, he was working with the mare on the ground with the bit like this. I actually met Vicky the day this happened. I was working helping my friend with her booth, she came as a vendor, and was right next to the Indoor arena in the Richmond building.

The point of my thread is not to say any trainer is entirely bad or good, just that I was dissappointed with the clinic. What I say happened, happened. The mare was tossing her head around. When he finally did fix it, the mare was much more comfortable. My problem is he didn't fix it right away, as soon as someone pointed it out. As I said before it was approx 20 minutes this whole incident. The clinic lasted I think for about 45 I believe? I missed the last part, as I left after the bit incident.

I have no reason to say something that wasn't true. You cannot call someone and have them tell you what I saw. Vicky was in the buildings tending to vendors more than at the clinics. She wasn't standing where I was. I was in the stands right in the front row right in front of the clinician.

I saw clearly what happened. I think it's a bit nuts to call and act this way. This is not your thread, nor were you even there, and obviously it looks a little silly what you are doing. It isn't going to change my opinion of what happened either, so what is the point? Others have said on here the same thing has happened in other clinics, or worse. Rolling on a saddle due to being unattentive is just as bad.

[La Gringa]

He was working turning the horse around tapping it on the haunches with the dressage whip. He pulled the bit through the mouth. It was hanging so low, that the curb strap didn't even stop a full cheek snaffle from sliding all the way through the mouth. It was like this for a bit, before someone even said anything. People around me were wondering why the horse was tossing it's head so much.

They had a western bit in the horses mouth before. I think it was a curb bit of some kind. The owner said it has issues with the mouth. It never liked the bit. They changed to the full cheek, and this happened. The bridle was too big for the mare, and the bit hung too low. The bit had the typical full cheek prongs, which slid all the way through the mouth. Personally, this is the first time I have seen a full cheek slide through like this. The whole point of the full cheek is to prevent this from happening. It had to be poorly adjusted for it to happen at all.

It was obvious that the mare was uncomfortable with the bit through her mouth like this. She was tossing her head all over the place. No, it wasn't just a little mistake in my eyes, and in my opinion it's not being over exaggerated. Perhaps the mare's owner is new to riding herself and was unaware of what was going on. All I know is it wasn't for me, and if it had been my horse I would have asked that it be fixed right away.

[fatmare]

If he did have a purpose for leaving that bit in the mares mouth, it would have been proper for him to explain it to the audience so all would know.


Exactly! Even if it were a mistake, I would expect a good established clinician like JL to know that it might be a good idea to point it out to the audience. Everyone makes mistakes, and JL has been around long enough to know that he's presenting a learning (theoretically) experience to the spectators. That's a weird enough sight to most experienced horse people that it's open to interpretation as bad horsemanship, and he should have either caught it up, or enlightened everyone as to why he wasn't going to right away.

[egontoast]

But as a person who has never seen nor heard of JL abusing horses in the public eye, I'd like to get more info on it for myself.



Here we go again with the "abuse '' thing. La Gringa didn't say that.
You made that up.

It's a nasty habit you have there, TS, making over the top false allegations about people.

[ESG]

I'm not calling you a liar LaGringa, but I am saying that its possible you just didn't understand the situation,

Sorry, but what's to "understand" about a professional horseman deliberately leaving a horse in pain, when it isn't necessary? You don't have to be an expert on any kind of horsemanship, to know that that's not in the best interests of the animal. Do give people some credit for brains, TS.

.....or that you blew it out of porportion because it's a NH guy, so you automatically assumed he was out to hurt the horse.

From what little I know of JL's exhibitions, they're neither easy to get to, nor cheap. If someone had preconceived notions or prejudices against a particular practitioner, why waste time watching them, and making up lies about them? Your argument doesn't hold water, TS. The OP is telling what she saw. Do be respectful enough to take it for what it is - her experience. Your hijacking of this thread and supposedly calling everyone involved with it is inappropriate, and unflattering to you. Not to mention, extremely suspect. :p

[J Swan]

La Gringa -

I bet you wished you'd come to Opening Meet instead of going to this demo!

[egontoast]

My point is that, on this board there seems to be this witch hunt against anybody who might possible practice any form of NH.

Actually, I've not noticed that. I've noticed a witch hunt agst anyone who rides a wb, likes dressage, competes, shoes their horse, uses a bit, doesn't turn their horses out 24/7, and so on blahblahblah.

[jgrass]

La Gringa, if you need backup, tell Vicki I saw the same thing happen at the 2005 extravaganza. She'll know who I am (My alias is hardly an alias, and she owes me a drink...). I was there with Paul Maye in 2005 and this year.

And yes, the horse I saw was being worked like that. That was a big turn off for me. I don't know why JL wouldn't just stop for a mement and fix it. To me that is just being fair to the horse.

Frankly, if your truthfulness is being questioned, so is mine, and my integrity means something to me.

[egontoast]

Can't you just picture that email?

Dear Herr Lyons,

Mean people on a discussion board have claimed that you abused and defiled a horse at an extravaganza. Please say it ain't so! Help me to crush ther slimey butts!

I will post your outraged reply!

Your adoring servant,

trainwreck ho

[katarine]

I wonder if she mentioned that she was

SHOCKED


and


APPALLED



whatcha think, egon?

[fullmoon fever]

I wonder if she mentioned that she was

SHOCKED


and


APPALLED



whatcha think, egon?

Perhaps she was AGHASTED!? :winkgrin:

[Fluffie]

At the same time, the technique he was teaching, using sepentines with a rushy, hollow horse to get it to focus, is something that has turned out to be a very useful tool for me in some situations doing dressage.

Which is the same technique I learned from the GM clinic I attended. :lol:

IMHO, the reason a lot of people fall off their rockers is that the NH trainers themselves are (generally, ahem) very savvy and experienced at reading horsie body language and fixing problems/starting babies. BUT, they then claim (through inference while reading the literature) that they can teach *anyone* standardized techniques for dealing with problems that demand tact, understanding, and experience more than anything else.

In addition, would I as a beginner take lessons from GM, Isabell W., or any other BNT to learn W/T/C and pick out hooves? NO!, that would be the same as asking a college professor to teach a kindergartner the ABC's--it isn't the expert's specialization. I'm lowley enough that all the trainers I've been around were more than happy to teach how to take care of horses, train them for mundane things, and then move up the ladder, regardless of discipline.

Such is life.

[ESG]

Well, that's why I've asked for an explanation - both from the organizer - and from JL himself. If these incidents really did happen, then I want to know WHY.


I see - so only the organizer(s) ( who probably wouldn't know about/remember the incident(s)) and JL (who probably wouldn't claim to remember/deny the incident) are to be believed, rather than two people with no axe to grind, who saw it with their own eyes? Remind me never to tell you if I see something dangerous headed your way, since you won't believe me. :p

It would seem to me that there's more to it than what meets the eye. (as there usually is)

Why? Just because you want there to be a reasonable explanation for an unreasonable action? I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. :no:

[La Gringa]

La Gringa -

I bet you wished you'd come to Opening Meet instead of going to this demo!


Yep! I would have. The demo was not worth it, although seeing my friend from Peru who I haven't seen in 5 years was worth it. I will go out with you guys again soon!

This is just comical how obsessed some people get about their "Dream Trainer" or whatever is going on with Two Simple here. It's obsessive to be calling the expo organizer acting like this. Talk about blowing something out of proportion!

[La Gringa]

Can't you just picture that email?

Dear Herr Lyons,

Mean people on a discussion board have claimed that you abused and defiled a horse at an extravaganza. Please say it ain't so! Help me to crush ther slimey butts!

I will post your outraged reply!

Your adoring servant,

trainwreck ho

ROTFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks for that one.

[La Gringa]

I wonder if she mentioned that she was

SHOCKED


and


APPALLED



whatcha think, egon?

Causing horses to be in pain does appal me, and I think it should anyone who cares about them. I imagine a full cheek prong jabbing anybody in the mouth would hurt.

[La Gringa]

La Gringa, if you need backup, tell Vicki I saw the same thing happen at the 2005 extravaganza. She'll know who I am (My alias is hardly an alias, and she owes me a drink...). I was there with Paul Maye in 2005 and this year.

And yes, the horse I saw was being worked like that. That was a big turn off for me. I don't know why JL wouldn't just stop for a mement and fix it. To me that is just being fair to the horse.

Frankly, if your truthfulness is being questioned, so is mine, and my integrity means something to me.

I think we need to consider the source here of the questioning. Someone who wasn't there at the clinic who is obviously obsessed with JL.

OCD perhaps?

I'm not worried. No matter what kind of stuff she supposedly finds out from outside sources, who also may not have seen the event... hardly carries any merit.

I just find it creepy actually that she would freak out so badly over a post that is really just an observation and a personal account of what happened.

OCD I think it is. Maybe TS should seek some of JL's techniques on herself is she is so much a fan, maybe it would cure this obsessive behavior.

[La Gringa]

Some of the NH threads on this forum over the past months (or longer) are just unbelievable. It almost seems to me that if any other BNT dressage, jumper, or eventer trainer, did some of these things, nobody would ever mention a word about it. I wonder if any of the Olympians have ever had a horse lay down and roll with a saddle on. Have you ever had it happen? It happens. Horses do dumb things. They're animals, and it can happen so fast that you can't even react.

I don't agree with this. No BNT I have ever ridden with, and I have ridden with a few... ever turned their horses loose in an arena with just a saddle on and then didn't pay attention to what the horse was doing. Nor, has any BNT I have ridden with pulled a full cheek snaffle through a horse's mouth and then didn't fix it right away.

I have seen things happen, equipment break etc or shift, but it's fixed right away.

[StefffiC]

I just find it creepy actually that she would freak out so badly over a post that is really just an observation and a personal account of what happened.

OCD I think it is. Maybe TS should seek some of JL's techniques on herself is she is so much a fan, maybe it would cure this obsessive behavior.

This isn't the first time. ;) Sometimes I wonder if some people just like creating train wrecks.

Steph

[La Gringa]

Was he reefing on the reins, jerking, etc.? I am just completely confused as how it is even possible to pull a full cheek snaffle through the mouth. I used to ride in one and I did a one rein stop in one (and that's some hard pulling) and it never went through the mouth. Even if its loose, he would have had to be just reefing on it as hard as he could, I would think. Granted, my bridle had bit keepers too. Did JL's bridle have bit keepers? I'm guessing no, since the JL trainer that was at my house had the JL manufacturered bridle and there were no keepers. She put the bridle on my mare loose too, but it wasn't sloppy loose. Just maybe 2 holes looser than what I would have adjusted it to.

Also I'm confused why he had a curb strap on it. The JL trainer I worked with last week specifically addressed the curb strap on a snaffle issue to me. My friend was there taking pictures for me and she always puts a curb strap on her snaffle bits. I've always told her its not necessary but she says it is.

So I asked the question to the trainer. She said, no, you never put a curb strap on a snaffle because a snaffle is not a leverage bit. This lady did her certification at JL's ranch, so I would think if JL teaches to use a curb strap, that this lady would be doing it to?

I'm sorry, not trying to keep badgering you, I'm just trying to figure this out because it makes no sense to me. :(

He was tugging/jerking somewhat hard on the rein pulling the mare around him. He was tapping her with the dressage whip while doing this. He was most of the time not even looking at the horse, he was always talking always mumbling something to the audience. He wasn't focused on the horse's head at all. The bit was very very low. Too low. It had a curb strap on. the entire thing was pulled through the mouth, part of the time until the entire bit was all they way through.... but most of the time the prong was inside the mouth of the horse causing major discomfort.

It was more than a bit strange. Why do you think I posted about it in the first place? If the bit had just slipped and he fixed it, no big deal. If it slipped and he had a reason for leaving it there, why not explain that, since the horse was filipping it's head in discomfort. When they mentioned it had slipped, his response was "it was a cheap bit," I heard that directly from his lips. He didn't fix it for quite a bit longer after that.

Strange indeed. Why do you think I left? Why should I continue to watch something like that?

[katarine]

Because TS is certain that your eyes deceived you.

Perhaps, La Gringa, you had a padded shoe over both ears, and maybe some closed blinkers over your eyes? Are you with the Big Lick Lover's League?

That has to be it.

It just HAS to be.

It is completely SHOCKING and APPALLING and AGHASTING to think you'd see something you really couldn't quite believe, and then share it with COTH. Incredible, really.

[lilblackhorse]

wow too simple, I am pretty aghast at this point too.

As in, do you have a life? All you seem to do is post on this bb, and now you have appointed yourself the Bulletin Board police. I can't even believe you had the audacity to call the organizers of this event, and email mr Lyons. Good grief.

LaGringa saw what she saw. I have seen JL several times, and was nonplussed by his attitude. But no, he didn't cram a bit cheeck into a horse's mouth. Why do you feel personally responsible for debunking Gringa's story and coming to mr lyon's rescue? It's just frickin weird.

[La Gringa]

It is wierd, and gives me the creeps. Maybe she is his secret spy love child. :lol: :lol: His "mini me" only in female form? Whatever turns her on. :rolleyes:

[nightsong]

But yes I'll gladly admit some of the crap Parelli advocates is way over the top (riding a horse into a trailer, jumping picnic tables, etc.)


Hey, *I* jump picnic tables!!!

[Sandy M]

Hey, *I* jump picnic tables!!!


But probably not bridlless and helmetless. LOL

I, too, have jumped picnic tables, in formal competition and when there was nothing else available to jump (in Golden Gate Park and other state parks). And I've jumped bareback and/or bridleless, but never helmet-less, at least not since I was smart enough to know better.

I always like the Parelli, "our horses are so well trained, it's fine to jump them when we're not wearing helmets," - Yeah, like their "training" is going to make a difference if they stumble, or misjudge the fence and fall.