going barefoot...ugh!

[kenbiki]

Okay ,so I pulled his shoes a week ago and really am not sure I can handle this ouchiness. He's wearing easyboots upfront and nothing behind. He's okay up front but the ouchiness behind is too much.I only trail ride and must go over roads and some gravel to get anywhere. I ordered Boas that came in today but I told her I wasn't sure if I should buy them due to my confusion on his soreness. I know I can get boots for behind as well,but my concern is that he'll come around in a few weeks but then we'll be heading into winter and hard frozen ground,which he'll be turned out on and will surely get sore from.I can't boot him 24-7. When I bought him he had been barefoot for quite some time and was quite sore.....help!!

[Kaydence]

Do what the horse needs to be comfortable. Either buy the boots or put shoes on or sell him but don't leave him suffer while you count pennies and invest in an idea that isn't working for him.

[Austin Rider]

It doesn't work for a lot of horses. Sounds like your guy may be one of them. I wouldn't ride him until you can get him comfortable.

[kenbiki]

I agree wholeheartedy with you....and this certainly isn't being done for financial reasons,rather it was to try to get some improvement in his hoof condition,albeit,not terrible but certainly there is room for improvement. I just figured that these "natural" trim horseowners could advise me as to how much discomfort is normal. I'm totally anal about my animals being uncomfortable in any way.He is just ouchy behind and it makes me very uncomfortable for him. I pulled his shoes under a vet and farriers recommendation,just to see if he could deal with it and if not we'd shoe again.Actually I scheduled a shoeing for one week after I pulled the shoes,I guess that's not a very positive attitude. But again,any advice would be appreciated.

[Huntertwo]

My Barefoot trimmer tells her clients (that depending on the horse) that it could take months until the foot toughens up and its mostly the clients who are impatient and put shoes back on before they give it a chance.

The best thing probably to do is to boot him when riding and unboot during turnout to give the foot a chance to toughen during the transition period.

[kenbiki]

See, that's what I heard as well ,and if it's going to do him good in the long run, I'm happy to boot him all around. I'm just having a hard time deciding how to handle this and am really concerned that the frozen ground in the winter is going to make this journey invalid and a waste of time. I adore my horses ,as we all do, and certainly want to do the right thing for him.

[kenbiki]

I don't know how to edit so here I am again...another concern about putting boots on behind is that he travels quite close and I'm concerned about injury from the boots. He does wear tendon boots behind. It seems that the Boas are low profile, and would be the least invasive behind and input?

[Raleigh's Mom]

Here's an article by Pete Ramey on booting and using pads inside of boots that you might find helpful.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/bootarticle.htm

[kenbiki]

Thank you,good article...I think I should go get those Boas and order rear ones. I have easy boots but don;t like them.

[Raleigh's Mom]

I did try the Boa boots when they first came out and I had a hard time keeping them on and/or from rubbing. In hindsight, they were probably a little too big. Personally, I prefer the easyboots; however, I do modify mine by flattening themetal teeth and covering with duct tape. I aslo trimmed down the back of one horse's because he kept stepping them off the front feet. What I really want is the "new" Easyboot Bares but my regulatr Easyboots haven't worn out yet.

There is an endurance rider named Karen Chaton that has been using EZ boot for years. She has some excellent information. Here is her info page. The hoofboot section is about halfway down.

http://members.tripod.com/ridephotos/karens_endurance_links.html

[FlyingChanges]

Have you trired the Mac Horse Boots? These are better than the Easy Boots....link below!

http://www.yourhorsecare.com/oldmacsboots.php

[kenbiki]

Great ssites,thank you. My farrier recommended the bares but I've had two back surgeries and wonder how difficult they are to get on. I have the regular easy boots and don't really love them...perhaps I should think about modification on them,duct tape,etc.

[Rudy]

I don't believe in the whole long transition periods; a horse shouldn't be in discomfort for months in hopes of their feet 'toughening.' If it takes that long then by all means put shoes on the poor horse to ease his discomfort.

Both of my horses go from shoes to none and are able to run on rocks with no problems all in the same day. There is no discomfort period with them so when I hear of horses that are off for months I just cringe. O_o

If you want to steer clear of shoes, put boots on all fours.

[CookiePony]

The Bares are not all that hard to get on if you have a rubber mallet. I just put the boot as far on to his hoof as I can, then let him stand on it to get his hoof farther down in it, and then pick up the foot again and tap on the toe with the mallet to push the boot back into the right position.

Just making sure-- do you have a trimmer/farrier who is experienced w/ barefoot?

One of my favorite sites on trimming to minimize soreness is Marjorie Smith's:
http://www.barefoothorse.com/

[DairyQueen2049]

I don't believe in the whole long transition periods; a horse shouldn't be in discomfort for months in hopes of their feet 'toughening.' If it takes that long then by all means put shoes on the poor horse to ease his discomfort..

I must agree. My horse goes shod all summer and then when the snow begins to fly off come the shoes and she is fine for our romps in the snow. No ouchie days.

Of course, my farrier sez I pay him for what he leaves on, not what he trims off. :yes: :lol:

[Kerrysmom818]

Just a thought - you might want to try using something to help harden the sole - like Keratex Hoof Hardener or venice of turpentine - it might help speed up the transition.

[Kerrysmom818]

Have you trired the Mac Horse Boots? These are better than the Easy Boots....link below!

http://www.yourhorsecare.com/oldmacsboots.php

FlyingChanges - I have a pair of the Old Macs - and for the most part I like them, but they seem to be too tall (if that makes sense) on my mare. They hit her just below the fetlock . . . do you know anyone else that has a similar problem? They don't seem to bother her and I haven't noticed any change in gait, they just look kind of funny . . .

[CBudFrggy]

Okay--let me ask you this.. have you x-rayed your horse to determine how thick his soles are? This is important because horses whose hooves have been shod a long time tend to have a thin sole, only 4mm, which leads to their soreness initially upon pulling their shoes. See, when they're wearing shoes they are not walking on their soles.

A horse who has gone barefoot for a while develops a thick sole, 15mm or more. A way to gauge the thickness of the sole is by how deep the grooves are alongside the frog. The deeper the grooves, the thicker the sole.

According to Pete Ramey's website, the grooves should be deeper closer to the frog (but we know that right?), and should be an inch to 1 1/2 inches deep from the plane of the hoof. In other words, you should be able to lay a rasp across the plane of the hoof, and the groove should be that deep at its deepest point. Less deep equals less sole thickness. Yes, it can take months for a horse to develop that thick a sole.

Like when we first go barefoot, and we have no callouses, our feet are tender. Then after we run around barefoot for awhile, our feet toughen up by developing callouses. This can take months. My friend's horse has thin soles, and I doubt she will ever be successful barefoot. She discovered it because she finally asked her vet for x-rays out of her own curiosity. Her horse had been barefoot almost a year and was still "ouchie" all the time. She's a QH.

My gelding, a TB, has thick soles and I ride him over gravel regularly in all gaits. He's been barefoot since before I bought him as he was neglected. (Left out to fend for himself for a year before I bought him)

I think it all depends on the horse. Therefore, if your own curiosity is piqued, and you truly want your horse to be comfortable, you might ask your vet for x-rays to determine how thick your horses "callouses" are.

One-week, BTW, is not a reasonable trial period. It can take up to a year for old hoof growth to grow out. Translation: new soles to grow in! HTH--read all the websites you can and get informed. You will be better able to make your own decisions about your horses' healthcare armed with the knowledge you learn.

[kenbiki]

Again,all good advice and am doing much research. As for the person with the too tall Mac's...would a pad inside help?? When I bought my horse,he had been barefoot for well over a year and turned out in a pasture,(not lush) with a bunch of cows .It was a field that had a mix of rough terrain and nice terrrain........he was horribly sore....perhaps he isn't a good candidate.

[saratoga]

I know a lot of people, myself included, who have tried / are trying the barefoot thing, mostly because of all that we are hearing now about metal shoes damaging hooves, although we all have sound, healthy horses who have been wearing shoes for years :) Its been said before, but I do think every horse is different and I personally do not want to have my horse sore or ouchy for months or years, and some will be. I think that is pretty sick and irresponsible. With the hard, frozen ground that you will have to deal with this winter, I would probably wait until the spring to try if your horse is sore now.

Karen Chaton's site is great and you can email her with any questions you have about easy care boots. I think the thing with the boots is, unless you are lucky, you will have to do a lot of experimenting with which ones stay on, don't rub, and your horse goes well in. You may have to go through quite a few different ones, different sizes and use duct tape, putty, vet wrap, and it can be expensive and frustrating, and also cause problems for your horse, like bad rubs.

[kenbiki]

I think that's a good idea. I really think I'm only going to have about eight weeks until the ground is rock hard(northeast).I also think that buys me time to find a good barefoot trimmer in my area. Does anyone use easyboots over shoes to avoid snowballs in the winter? I really hate to use the rim or bubble pads. Also if anyone knows of good barefoot trimmers in the Allentown-New Tripoli,Pa area please let me know. I found one named Vicky Kline but don't know anything about her.

[Kerrysmom818]

Again,all good advice and am doing much research. As for the person with the too tall Mac's...would a pad inside help??

I suppose I could try a pad - in fact, I think they might even sell some - I just didn't think about using one for that reason. (slaps forehead) Thanks!

[Kerrysmom818]

Again,all good advice and am doing much research. As for the person with the too tall Mac's...would a pad inside help??

I suppose I could try a pad - in fact, I think they might even sell some - I just didn't think about using one for that reason. (slaps forehead) Thanks!

[islandrider]

My horse has also been barefoot for one week now. He has been bare in the back without problems for several months. The first few days after pulling his fronts he was ouchy. Every day was better. Tuesday we went for a ride to find the ez boot that flew off a while back- he was moving just fine- AND we found the boot. He will be starting a biotin supp. soon as it arrives.
I wish there was a "lending library" of all different boots we could all use when we are in this transition. I have one size 1 that stays on, one size 1 that doesn't---would like to try the old macs, but only after really ruling out this recent purchase of the ez boots. Anyway, good luck!!!!

[IndysMom]

Not every horse can be barefoot. That's just the way it is. Based on the history, you may have one of those.

However, you can try a couple of things.

Wait for the muddy season and pull them then. This only works if you have a reliable muddy season.

Wait for snow and pull them then. see above.

Try the venice turpentine/keratex route.

My favorite was the one shoe off at a time-LOL! That's probably not a favorable one, but boy did it work good! The horse pulled a shoe (we referred to him as one-shoe-joe) and by the time the farrier got out to put it back on, he wasn't sore anymore-so we pulled the other one-wahlah-barefoot! Probably the only time we made that transition with a minimum of soreness!

[Huntertwo]

You have to remember, it is just not waiting for the hoof to toughen, but slowing developing the correct shape and size of the hoof (which happens through several trimming cycles) If you have the correct trimmer, the hoof should take on a concave shape after cycles of trimming. Therefore they are not walking on the "ouchy" part of the hoof. The frog should start spredding, hence pumping more blood into the proper areas...etc.

[kenbiki]

I wish I had a camera to post pics. His hind feet are a bit low at the heel ,but not underslung,so he has so much heel contact and I think that's what hurts behind.I also just noticed a large difference in heel height up front. The foot that I was concerned about is getting a forward dip ;in the toe,this is the foot with the higher heel and also the foot that had a very,very slight navicular change on prepurchase radiographs...now I'm getting real upset and confused.I would say that the left front heel is about 3/4 higher than the right front heel...ugh! So here's my thought,if I find a good natural trimmer,would it be feasible to have her do the trim and have my guy put the shoes on til mud season(when I can go barefoot).My vet is coming Sunday to look at the shoeless feet. Or should I have the natural trimmer get him right and boot to ride and put shoes on when the ground is frozen,if i have to?

[CBudFrggy]

So here's my thought,if I find a good natural trimmer,would it be feasible to have her do the trim and have my guy put the shoes on til mud season(when I can go barefoot).My vet is coming Sunday to look at the shoeless feet. Or should I have the natural trimmer get him right and boot to ride and put shoes on when the ground is frozen,if i have to?

it may take weeks or months for your horse's hooves to reshape themselves. Its not a one-trim thing where the trimmer can reshape the hoof and then slap the shoes back on to wait for mud season. How deep are the grooves on the sides of your horse's frogs. Also, have your old radiographs handy for the barefoot trimmer so they're aware of the navicular change.

[arena run]

Your horse will not transition to barefootedness unless he's being trimmed by a certified barefoot trimmer. You old 'shoeing' farrier won't do. Farriers trim too much off the bottom of the toe leaving the foot out of balance and the coffin bone, for lack of a better explaination, pointing down instead of parallel to the ground.

Barefoot trimmers can work w/you in finding boots to fit your horse. Sometimes they'll even have some for you to borrow during the transition time.

If your horse continues to get worse it's not the foot - it's the trimmer. Shoes are not the answer - proper trimming is. sylvia

[kenbiki]

thank you...I'm searching for a proper natural trimmer rather than my regular guy,withwhom I'm not real happy with at this moment!

[Austin Rider]

I disagree. Any good farrier who knows what he/she's doing (i.e., can do a good balanced trim, etc.) can handle both barefoot and shod horses. I see it all the time and the horses are fine and comfortable.

I agree with the others that finding the right boot takes a lot of experimentation (and $). I tried them, but never found any that didn't either rub, fall off, or fail with irritating regularity. In fact, I have a barely used pair of #3 Old Macs sittiing in my trailer now that I need to get rid of.

[matryoshka]

If a farrier is familiar with some of the current "barefoot" techniques, he should do fine--you'd be surprised at how many have actually looked into the current trends. A "natural" trimmer may actually have a lot less education about hooves and anatomy than a farrier. I'm saying this because I was unpleasantly surprised by the lack of knowledge from at least one "natural" trimmer (was hiring himself out as a trimmer, too) at a barefoot clinic I attended. There are a lot of theories out there for trimming, and a person needs a thorough grounding in basics and anatomy to be able to analyze your horse's feet and figure out a solution. And the person needs to be honest enough to recommend shoes when they can't help you. The advantage to having a farrier do the trimming is that the same person can apply the shoes!

If you go with a "natural" trimmer, get references and go see other horses this person trims. I've seen some local work by "natural" trimmers that I wouldn't pay $20 for, much less the price they charge. I've also seen some truy exceptional trimming work by several farriers in the area.

I'm not anti "natural" trimmer or farrier here, but there is a lot of hype lately that seems to say "fire the farrier, hire a trimmer." I'm not convinced this is the best thing to do. It depends on the work of both the farrier and the prospective trimmer.

IME, the horses who struggle the most with barefoot transitions are the flat footed ones. I've got one who is very flat footed, even after rehabbing his feet to get his angles to align and correct the underrun heels. I ride him in boots on the front only, but his back feet are not flat. I have another mare who is also flat footed. Her hind feet are flat, too, and she needs boots on the fronts and back for riding. She's sound out in the pasture, frozen ground and all, but is ouchy when ridden.

Hope this helps you make your decision.

BTW, I'm a trimmer and trim my own horses. I've seen some wonderful changes occur in feet with good trimming, but it takes time. It takes 6 months to a year for a new hoof to grow in, so if your horse has underrun heels and long toes, it'll take a while for this conformation to be totally corrected, and it can look funny for a while.

[Austin Rider]

Yes, there's some pretty scary work out there. I've seen horses doing badly barefoot, not because it was wrong for them, but simply because the trim was so horrible. Forget the labels and find a professional who knows what they're doing.

[matryoshka]

Amen!!! :yes:

[kenbiki]

This all makes great sense....I've always been happy with my farrier but lately something just isn't sitting right with me...these uneven heels are really bugging me as well as the relatively new dip in his toe(same foot). I wish I had a camera to post pics.

[nc_eventer]

I think Hunter too said it- it is not an overnight transformation. If the sole is flat and not concave like it should be, then the horse is walking on the sole and obviously very tender. You have to give the hoof time to grow and adjust to it's new workload. My farrier takes pictures when she firsts starts a horse and then every few trimmings to document the progress. It is really neat to see how the foot changes. Yes there are probably some horses that can't go barefoot due to sole thickness, etc. but give it a shot, your horse will thank you a year from now when he has wonderfully healthy, tough feet.
(My boy is barefoot and we event with no problems!)

[CookiePony]

The foot that I was concerned about is getting a forward dip ...

I am making a guess without seeing pictures, but probably that dip is what is called "flare" and it can hurt the horse to walk on it. It means that the white line is stretched in that area. If the flare is at the toe then it brings the point of breakover forward and puts more strain on the laminae when your horse's foot is about to leave the ground.

I'm glad I asked in my post on page 1 if you had a farrier or trimmer who is experienced with barefoot because the trim really makes a world of difference in how fast they get comfortable barefoot. For example, if a foot is to be left barefoot, the quarters need to be relieved, unlike in a trim for a shoe where the foot is left flat. Also more sole and frog are left so it can start/continue to pack down into a callus.

[Arthlur]

My horse has been barefoot for a little over a year now. When my farrier did the first trim, he was pretty bad for about 3 weeks. He doesn't lay down that much and during that first few weeks he did alot to give his feet a rest. My farrier said he might do that. It was really hard for me to see him that way, but I had seen what my farrier could do and I trusted her. After the 3rd week he just started getting better. I started riding him with boots on, now he is going pretty well without the boots. He still stumbles on stones sometimes. Good luck. Just stick with it, it will get better!

[kenbiki]

Yes it is a toe flare I suppose,he did have some stretching of the white line area. What do we do,bring the toe back?

[CookiePony]

Yes it is a toe flare I suppose,he did have some stretching of the white line area. What do we do,bring the toe back?

Yes, the trimmer/farrier will bring the toe back (not thin the sole in the toe area, as farriers do sometimes). Check this link out:
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Strategy.html

[matryoshka]

You can check the hoof/pastern angle (HPA) to see if your horse's feet are balanced from front to back. The leg needs to be vertical and weighted. Hold something straight, like a ruler on its side, so that it bisects the fetlock joint and pasturn. The bottom of the ruler should also bisect the hoof footprint. If it doesn't, the HPA is off. This happens in flat feet with underrun heels and long toes (broken back HPA) and on horses with too short toes and high heels (broken forward HPA and club feet).

Another idea is to look at the top 1/4 of the hoof along the front (dorsal wall). This grows down along the coffin bone. If it curves out toward the toe as you look lower, then that is a toe flare. Same goes for the sides of the feet. Sometimes it is easier to feel a flare with your fingers if you can't see it.

Personally, I like Pete Ramey's method of bringing back the toes, without dressing the flare down as high up as he does (I'm not a fan of rasping off periople and hoof wall). I use the nippers around the toes and make vertical cuts just in front of where I want the breakover to be. If the hoof capsule is stretched and there is more than just a flare, the sole may extend past the "ideal" breakover. DON'T cut it back into the sole! In this case, I bring it back as far as I can, often to the white line, and then roll the toe. Most horses don't get sore from this, but occassionally, one does. If that happens, I get less aggressive on bringing the toes back.

The hoof will respond by continuing to grow down along the dorsal wall of the coffin bone rather than flaring away because of prying. In cases where the hoof is really distorted, there will often be a distinct band between new growth and where the flare started. Once this grows down, the hoof capsule is no longer elongated, and the trimmer can leave more toe.

I do not thin the sole at the toe. The only exception is if I'm working to bring the breakover back on a flat-footed horse and the toe callus pokes above the level of the walls. This can become a pressure point and make the horse sore on hard surfaces. It's a kindness then to pare it level with the wall, but no more than that. Some horses can tolerate leaving a toe callus, and some can't. You must observe how your horse responds to the trim so you can give your farrier/trimmer useful feedback for them to best help your horse.

I'd like to hear more about the uneven heels. One way to check medial/lateral balance is to hold the leg in the middle of the cannon bone and let the foot hang (front feet). If you place a straight-edge across the bottom of the foot, it should be at right angles to the cannon bone. If it isn't, check to see whether the walls have been trimmed evenly. You can often spot uneven heels and walls this way.

Other reasons you may not appear to have medial/lateral balance have to do with conformational issues. Rotation in the leg will affect how the hoof hangs. Depending on which joint is rotated, it will change how the hoof sits on the leg. If your horse has rotation issues, get your farrier or vet to explain to you how this affects the horse's feet. If your farrier can't explain this to you, it is a sign that he/she isn't going to be able to help your horse. The trouble for me is that I can see what causes these things, but it's important to be honest with the owner about whether or not I know how to help the horse. When I don't know, I refer them to an experienced farrier who does. People seem to appreciate this. ;)

Everyone who works on your horse should have the horse's best interest in mind. It doesn't help the horse for anyone on the team to have a personal investment on whether shoes are an option or not. My farrier told me that a horse needs a six months trial before we could say whether or not barefoot will work. However, if my horse had been really lame and laying down, I would have taken that as a NO and gone with shoes. The flat footed ones got ouchy, but there was never a time when I had a pit in my stomach wondering if I was hurting my horse by keeping it barefoot.

[mrsbwayne]

When I first pulled shoes off my TB when I had him, he was so sore that I had a vet come out for an emergency visit on a Sunday, and he told me the horse was foundering. I mean, he could hardly walk. The next day I went to another vet and did Xrays and found out he was just trimmed too short.
So I put shoes and pads on him.

Then 8 weeks later I pulled his shoes again. He was ouchy. I took Boomer for a ride around the field, and the TB went nuts running around in the pen and bruised his feet up.
So I put shoes on him.

3rd time's the charm! 8 weeks later I pulled his shoes again. He was ouchy, but it was not so bad he couldn't walk or anything like that. When he came out of the pen (which has sand in it, so this wasn't too hard on his feet in normal circumstances) he wore Old Macs. I don't remember if he had them on front and back or not. I think just front. Anyway, it took at least 4 weeks for his feet to be not sore, and then he could walk over gravel or anything. But I had to tell the farrier to just barely trim him, because that's all he could take, or he'd be sore for a couple weeks after a trim. But if he just took a little tiny bit off, he'd be fine.

Now Boomer can have shoes or not, he doesn't get sore even if he's worn them for months and has them pulled. Well, maybe a little over gravel for the first couple days, but he's not really tenderfooted. But.. even with his nice hard toes, the terrain out here gets a little rough, and beats up his feet. He doesn't fit old macs or any other boot that I know of, so if we're going to do any mountain climbing or anything during the summer, he has to have shoes.
Sarina

[kenbiki]

His heels are even...it's just that one foot has even,balanced higher heels and the other has lower heels,I think they call it high-low syndrome. After a lot of clinical photos I lookes at on farrier sites,I'd have to say that my guy isn't really that horrible but I have seen changes that I don't like and that I don't want to worsen.

[Rick Burten]

horses whose hooves have been shod a long time tend to have a thin sole, only 4mm, which leads to their soreness initially upon pulling their shoes.
Sorry, but that is utter nonsense and completely without substantiation.
A horse who has gone barefoot for a while develops a thick sole, 15mm or more.
Demonstrably, there are multitudes of shod horses whose sole depth is at least 15mm and often exceeds 18mm.
A way to gauge the thickness of the sole is by how deep the grooves are alongside the frog. The deeper the grooves, the thicker the sole.
it all depends on the horse. Therefore, if your own curiosity is piqued, and While on the surface, this may appear to be true, this statement fails to mention that that depth may be the result of retained sole, not because of any increase in thickness of live sole. Since it is demonstrable that retained sole can, under certain circumstances, be quite deletorious to the comfort level of the horse, it is important to understand the difference between retained sole, live sole, and their impact of hoof and horse well being.
According to Pete Ramey's website, the grooves should be deeper closer to the frog (but we know that right?), and should be an inch to 1 1/2 inches deep from the plane of the hoof. In other words, you should be able to lay a rasp across the plane of the hoof, and the groove should be that deep at its deepest point. Less deep equals less sole thickness.
I'm not aware that this has been proven. If there is some research that you can point me to that substantiates the observations, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me what that research is and where to find it.
Like when we first go barefoot, and we have no callouses, our feet are tender. Then after we run around barefoot for awhile, our feet toughen up by developing callouses. This can take months.
Or never truely occur. Like most things, especially most things horse, It Depends.
My friend's horse has thin soles, and I doubt she will ever be successful barefoot. She discovered it because she finally asked her vet for x-rays out of her own curiosity. Her horse had been barefoot almost a year and was still "ouchie" all the time. She's a QH.
Breed is not necessarily relevent. And does not this example, blow to smitherins the cry of the BUA that every horse can successfully be or become barefoot?
My gelding, a TB, has thick soles and I ride him over gravel regularly in all gaits.
So? My shod horses successfully rode over all kinds of terrain at all gaits, had thick soles(radiographically confirmed) , and never suffered the ills so often ballyhooed by the BUA.

Rick

[Rick Burten]

Your horse will not transition to barefootedness unless he's being trimmed by a certified barefoot trimmer.
That is a total crock of bat guano. Were I someone who only trimmed for barefoot and read that, I'd be more than insulted by such a comment. As it is, the comment only shows the , dare I say, ignorance, of the maker.
You old 'shoeing' farrier won't do.
More bat guano. (or is that bull guano?)
Farriers trim too much off the bottom of the toe leaving the foot out of balance and the coffin bone, for lack of a better explaination, pointing down instead of parallel to the ground.
The guano is deepening. Perhaps you have a PHD? (Piled Higher and Deeper)
Barefoot trimmers can work w/you in finding boots to fit your horse. Sometimes they'll even have some for you to borrow during the transition time.
Or not. Dang, there's that pesky old "It Depends" phrase again.
If your horse continues to get worse it's not the foot - it's the trimmer. Shoes are not the answer - proper trimming is. sylvia
Guano, PHD.

Rick

[kenbiki]

Thank you Hoofrx1...

[pawsplus]

Anyone whose horse is BF or who is considering taking their horse BF should consider coming over to the equinextion board:

http://www.gossiping.net/phpBB2/index.php?mforum=equinextionforu

This is a GREAT place to get real, professional advice, and if you take some good pix (instructions on how to get the best ones in a sticky at the top of the Posting Pictures for Help forum), the experts there will mark them up digitally for you and you will learn SO MUCH.

Many of us are successfully trimming our own horses, and it's amazing how quickly you learn and how MUCH you learn. It is the best thing I've ever done for my 2.

Come on over to the EQ board!

[xeroxchick]

My horse has rather crappy feet. I pulled his shoes in June 2005 until August. He was so ouchy it was breaking my heart but I hung in there and not only did he get through it fine, his feet were SO much better the next fall and winter and he never lost a shoe. Of course, I was not riding him during this time. I wish I had done this last summer and am definatly doing it next spring. If you can, hang in there.

[Rudy]

Your horse will not transition to barefootedness unless he's being trimmed by a certified barefoot trimmer. You old 'shoeing' farrier won't do. Farriers trim too much off the bottom of the toe leaving the foot out of balance and the coffin bone, for lack of a better explaination, pointing down instead of parallel to the ground.

Barefoot trimmers can work w/you in finding boots to fit your horse. Sometimes they'll even have some for you to borrow during the transition time.

If your horse continues to get worse it's not the foot - it's the trimmer. Shoes are not the answer - proper trimming is. sylvia


I admit, you had me laughing out loud, until I realized you were serious. Go back and read what I wrote on the first page, both of my horses go from shod to running on rocks without any soreness. Oh, and this is by an old 'shoeing' farrier. you know why that is? Because he is a GOOD farrier who actually knows what he is doing...point blank.

Crappy farriers are everywhere same as there are many crappy barefoot trimmers.

[matryoshka]

Thanks for helping out here, Rick. :D I didn't want to get into an argument about sole thickness and whatnot.

Kenbiki, I think I saw your thread over on horseshoes.com. That's probably the best place to get your answers to this question. I don't worry much whether the front feet are identical as long as each hoof is balanced. There are all sorts of reasons why they might be different. Good luck deciding what to do. Please keep us posted so we can all learn from your experiences.

[Rick Burten]

Thanks for helping out here, Rick. :D I didn't want to get into an argument about sole thickness and whatnot.
That's because you lack my non-combative, non-confrontational personality. :D

Besides, in order to have a discussion/argument/debate, both sides should be equally well informed and not hampered by TSS. Demonstrably, in this instance, that was not the case. One needs to learn not to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

Rick

[DeeDee]

My kids are barefoot and have been for several years. We received a QH rescue 2 years ago and he was diagnosed with navicular disease and had been wearing egg butt shoes with snow pads on his fronts. Our farrier suggested letting him go barefoot with a special "mustang roll" trim. After the shoes came off; he was VERY tenderfooted. One thing my farrier suggested to help toughen up his soles worked well for us. We used a hoof dressing on the bottoms (as well as the coronet band and hoof walls) made by Ferbers. The important thing was to have turpentine in it as it helped him to build stronger soles.

Best of luck to you and hang in there,
Dee

[In_]

I strongly suggest using Keratex Hoof Hardener. We've had multiple horses on the farm that would be dead lame without shoes, if we didn't use Keratex. While using it, 2-3 times a week, they were 100% sound (not at all ouchy) and were eventing novice and training level.

You can order it online a lot cheeper than most local tack stores. Valley Vet also carries it, I think.

[matryoshka]

Rick, in a fight between a trimmer and a farrier, the farrier would win, hands down. All I have is a knife (loop knife, no good at all in a fight), a rasp, and nippers. I did splurge and get some shoe-pulling tools, but they won't do much in a fight unless I throw them. :eek: The tools you farriers carry around require a truck! Heck, it all else fails, you could pitch the anvil at your opponent. I can't even lift the darn things, unless I get a 50 pounder, which looks like a toy...

Verbal skills are another matter. I'll leave the arguing to you non-confrontational types. :lol:

BTW, I've got a couple of clients who inteded to use me until they found a farrier. I counted these as temporary clients, but their horses are going sound barefoot and they've decided to stay shoeless. Go figure--sometimes people really want their horses barefoot, and they stay sore. Sometimes they want to go back to shoes, and the horses stay sound barefoot. One never knows until one tries, I guess. That ever present "It Depends" is at work here.

[TripleRipple]

I admit, you had me laughing out loud, until I realized you were serious. Go back and read what I wrote on the first page, both of my horses go from shod to running on rocks without any soreness. Oh, and this is by an old 'shoeing' farrier. you know why that is? Because he is a GOOD farrier who actually knows what he is doing...point blank.

Crappy farriers are everywhere same as there are many crappy barefoot trimmers.

I second this in all aspects.

Mine go from shod to barefoot, and we only do hard dry earth with rocks (I live in the high desert, land of volcanic stuff. I have to search to find real "soil" here).

There is no transition period. At all. Travel at every speed as well. For miles, like the same day the farrier comes. Not with any of my shoers, or any of my horses. Of course, the one who should never be without a nice plate would be in a world of hurt, but I know his feet, his thin soles, his wierd innerds on that left front foot, and I shoe him for soundness - gosh , what a blessing that I can, because he is a supremely athletic horse if I correct for his "achilles" heel so to speak.

ETA: And that first line - a horse won't transition to barefoot until done by a cert. barefoot trimmer? With all due respect, that is cat crap.

[rcloisonne]

Okay--let me ask you this.. have you x-rayed your horse to determine how thick his soles are? This is important because horses whose hooves have been shod a long time tend to have a thin sole, only 4mm, which leads to their soreness initially upon pulling their shoes. See, when they're wearing shoes they are not walking on their soles.
I had my chronically foundered mare barefoot for two years, trimmed every three weeks like clockwork by noted barefoot trimmers, included one who is very well known and whose site is often referenced by barefoot true-believers. They both did a very nice job and were very supportive.

However, I finally came to my senses and through in towel regarding barefoot works for every horse. The last set set of rads taken while barefoot showed her soles so thin, the tack used to mark the frog apex was touching PIII and she was bleeding from the soles just in front of that, ready to penetrate. My regular equine vet advise euthanasia.

Not ready to give up on my old girl, I hired an out of state vet and farrier (at great expense) who applied the full EDSS. She was radiographed at each shoeing. Over the course of 6 months in EDSS the mare went from <3mm (while barefoot) sole depth to more than 18mm with this shoeing package, all live. My barefoot trimmer attended some of these shoeings and couldn't believe it when he saw the rads.

A way to gauge the thickness of the sole is by how deep the grooves are alongside the frog. The deeper the grooves, the thicker the sole.
Nonsense! My mare's "grooves" were very deep while sole depth under the apex of PIII was almost non-existant. Those deep grooves indicated PIII was very much rotated with significant sinking, i.e., plenty of sole at the back 2/3 of the foot, almost none at the toe.

Barefoot does not work for every horse! To say it does is magical thinking and a bald faced lie.

[kenbiki]

Martryoshka...yes that's me over there...I'm "Indianboy" ,my nickname for my "Hildalgo" look a like horse. I faithfully use Keratex. I 'm pretty sure that I'm going to shoe him this week,only because the frozen ground will be here so soon. My plan will then be to try again(wholeheartedly and patiently) at spring thaw...that's gives me a whole summer and fall to work on it. You guys are all terrific with all the help,thank you.

[matryoshka]

rcloisone,

I'm so glad you found a solution for your horse! Have you read any of the threads by Appasionato? She has a horse with sinking founder. Her farrier didn't know how to deal with it, and applied steel Natural Balance shoes incorrectly. Appasionato took the horse to Jaye Perry (posts to horseshoes.com), who was able to help the horse much better.

[kenbiki]

Ironically,my vet just looked at my horse an hour ago and suggested the natural balance,so I called farrier and he thinks a great idea...time to do my research.

[rcloisonne]

rcloisone,
I'm so glad you found a solution for your horse! Have you read any of the threads by Appasionato? She has a horse with sinking founder. Her farrier didn't know how to deal with it, and applied steel Natural Balance shoes incorrectly. Appasionato took the horse to Jaye Perry (posts to horseshoes.com), who was able to help the horse much better.

Thank you Matryoshka. Yes, I have been following Appasionato's story both here and on horseshoes.com. I was very glad she found a farrier with a clue. Way to go, Appasionato! Her case is a bit different than my mare's and more difficult to treat. Although mine had much more rotation (> 18 degrees measured from the wings of PIII to the ground), complete loss of laminar attachment was limited to the dorsal area. Hence, not a "true" sinker and she fortunately she had plenty of healthy foot caudally (no contracted heels, nice plump healthy frogs, a nice heel first landing).

I did tell Appasionato in one of her earlier posts here that the shoe job her horse had was godawful.:no: What was done to her horse's feet gives farriers a bad name. And, I can't think of a worse misapplication of NB shoes.

Unfortunately, incompetent farriers are all too common and the biggest driving force behind why people search out barefoot trimmers. Before going the barefoot route, my long time farrier put my mare in eggbars when she initially foundered. Eggbars made her worse by loading the hoof walls exclusively. One could wrongly interpret what was done to mean all shoes are bad. :rolleyes:

When I told the farrier the "therapeutic" shoes weren't helping he said to give it more time (I was a royal pain in the butt and called him weekly). He kept blowing me off. After 6 weeks of no improvement (actually getting worse), I desperately looked around for someone else and started researching everything I could find on treatments for laminitis - which is how I eventually found Marjorie Smith, who was only a few miles way.

Knowing what I know today, I realize this guy was completely clueless how to help my horse and didn't have a spec of understanding on how to successfully rehab a laminitic hoof.

Does this mean all shoes and traditionally trained farriers are bad? Of course not. One just has to take the time to look around and find someone who knows what the heck they're doing (a lot of luck is needed too):sigh:

There are plenty of incompetent professionals in other fields out there (MDs, vets, mechanics, "certified" barefoot trimmers, etc.). The more you know, the better you are able to judge the abilities of those you hire and discern the wheat from the chaff.

[matryoshka]

Make sure your farrier is well versed in the whole NB protocol. If they are applied without the NB trim, they are awful. It's not just the shoes, it's the entire package that helps. Wish you the best of luck!

Rcloisonne, you make many good points. There are talented individuals in every profession, and there are people who really don't belong doing the kind of work they choose. It's important to be a well informed owner who can tell whether or not the farrier/trimmer is helping their horse.

[Eventer13]

While on the topic, can anyone suggest any good books on trimming and shoeing (not just going barefoot)? I'm starting to realize how little I know.

[matryoshka]

I like "The Sound Hoof: Horse Health from the Ground Up" by Lisa Simons Lancaster. She has no bias for or against shoes, she discusses HPA and other issues. I lend it to my clients who want to learn more about their horses' feet. So far, everybody has appreciated reading it. You can ask your farrier if he/she has any books he/she is willing to lend you. Chances are, the person has a library of reference material and may be willing to let you read some.

[Fancy]

Horses have to grow sole and also hoof wall before they walk sound on gravel roads. KC LaPierre recommends walking the horses for 20 minutes every day on pavement. The hard surface stimulates the hoof to grow. We did that with my husband's gelding ("forever lame, never pasture sound, bute him until it kills him") and he's going sound now. But you have to give it some time. It's not an instant thing. And somebody asked if you have a trimmer that is experienced with barefoot horses? All hype aside, the trim is NOT the same for shod and unshod horses. The trimmer needs to make sure there's no flare, no long toe, and that the foot is directly under the leg.