Anyone heard of Craig P Stevens, Wa?

[Bogey2]

rats, too early for popcorn!

[merrygoround]

Does your name make a statement?

[saje]

Why have you dredged up an ancient thread for your first post?

[Equibrit]

A hex on you and all your children.

[hoopoe]

Why have you dredged up an ancient thread for your first post?


Because when you Google the name the thread is the second choice,

the first being his own web site

March you minion, defend the faith

[Coreene]

Dude, really, there IS such thing as bad publicity. And bumping up a long, long, long forgotten thread the way you just have is a shining example of it.

[stryder]

It takes a while to figure out how COTH works. I admit to the same mistake. Some time after deciding to take lessons from Craig, I googled him, and found this forum. I had never heard of it. Saw the thread, and posted in support of him. I didn't realize until later what a terrible mistake I had made in dredging this thing from the sleep, and that there's no way to win in this environment.

One of the problems is that this thread never would have been allowed to "flourish" under the present moderators. The moderators have cleaned it up some, and yet it remains. It's sickening that anyone can be so publicly libeled by people cloaked in anonymity. People who have never studied with him, or haven't in decades, get a free pass to take potshots at someone. In the real world, some of this would be libelous and actionable, and yet it lives here forever.

The last time this thread was brought up, Craig's wife tried to provide some input, became sickened and saddened by what she read, and asked for help in getting it removed. At which point she was criticized by some of you.

His practice continues to grow and evolve because he continues to study and explore.

I've been a student of Craig's for more than three-and-a-half years. I feel fortunate to own a mare he trained. I've taken lunge lessons galore on rock-solid, steady school horses who love their work. Craig and the staff are wonderful to work with. I am well aware of Craig's temperament, and have chosen to study with him because of what - and how - I'm learning. I've met many people from the US and other countries who feel the same way.

Diana

[lstevenson]

Does your name make a statement?


:lol:

[Timex]

So, Diana, in the interest of answering other posters questions, what is his show record, if you happen to know? I have absolutely no dog in this fight, have never even heard of the guy, but I thought that the clarification that was sought and never received *is* valid. And, just so I can't be accused of 'hiding' behind my computer and screen name,

Jennifer
Saratoga, NY

[Carol Ames]

two-beat canter, :confused:and levade.

[Don Raphaelo Rollkurista]

I dont know this man but I have been hearing of him for many years.I imagine he loves horses and loves classical horsemanship.For better or worse it appears he has dedicated his life to the pursuit of his art and not the better money many pursue in the horse business.If he is not as great as others does he deserve to be made fun of by strangers?Perhaps he is excellent at some things and less accomplished at others?I do not support these unsolicted evaluations of a man like Craig Stevens on this forum any more than the vilification of modern competion riders on similar forums.

[Carol Ames]

school of Academic Equitation; Isn't this what Marina Genn calls her place near Leesburg?

[stryder]

So, Diana, in the interest of answering other posters questions, what is his show record, if you happen to know? I have absolutely no dog in this fight, have never even heard of the guy, but I thought that the clarification that was sought and never received *is* valid. And, just so I can't be accused of 'hiding' behind my computer and screen name,

Jennifer
Saratoga, NY

Jennifer, I do not know. I understand that a show record makes a difference to some people. Given my understanding of Craig's general career, he would have been showing before records were stored in databases accessible by Internet search engines.

[lstevenson]

I dont know this man but I have been hearing of him for many years.I imagine he loves horses and loves classical horsemanship.For better or worse it appears he has dedicated his life to the pursuit of his art and not the better money many pursue in the horse business.If he is not as great as others does he deserve to be made fun of by strangers?Perhaps he is excellent at some things and less accomplished at others?I do not support these unsolicted evaluations of a man like Craig Stevens on this forum any more than the vilification of modern competion riders on similar forums.


Uh, Don.....take a look at his website and see if you feel the same way. ;)

[stryder]

school of Academic Equitation; Isn't this what Marina Genn calls her place near Leesburg?

I don't know anything about Marina Genn or Leesburg, but National School of Academic Equitation is registered to Craig by the Washington Secretary of State.

[Timex]

I don't know anything about Marina Genn or Leesburg, but National School of Academic Equitation is registered to Craig by the Washington Secretary of State.

Which means that Marina very well could call her place the same, without being associated. Ex: I work out of a farm called Hidden Sping. There's another Hidden Spring in OK, and another somewhere in the Midwest, no affiliation. Heck, there are 2 Sandcastle Farms in Saratoga alone, that have nothing to do with each other.

And Diana, I think the showing info was being looked for less as a yardstick to measure what sort of trainer he is, and more as clarification as to what he states on his website. I mean, if *i* had all these championships won, I would at least state from what shows. Know what I mean?

[Carol Ames]

Who was it who used to way "Get out of your horses'way:confused:?" Jim Wofford; Jack legoff; more recently Sally Swift, and Peggy Cummings; I know that I have heard it for years!:yes:

[Carol Ames]

; 'I have ridden with three ;):cool:of the "Swedish school; cols. Lindquist, lindgren Blixen finecke; though each had their own way of explaining it they all seemed to emphasize mobilization of the shoulders , and, on the riders part "bun control:lol:"" Is his Craig S. along yyhose lines?

[Carol Ames]

; 'I have ridden with three ;):cool:of the "Swedish school; cols. Lindquist, lindgren and Blixen finecke; though each had their own way of explaining it they all seemed to emphasize mobilization of the shoulders , and, on the riders part "bun control:lol:"" Is his Craig S' teaching along those lines?

[Don Raphaelo Rollkurista]

I have looked at his website in the past and find it good!It seems to me obvious that he is a modern Baucherist and this I like to see!I hope he is a good one and I would bet he is!If he wasnt and was simply trying his best why make it more difficult for him to feed his family?It is simply WRONG to do so!There has to be a line between researching a trainer one may desire to work with and this kind of thing that could be devastating to an otherwise good mans ability to make a living!Please!Think before posting these things!

[stryder]

; 'I have ridden with three ;):cool:of the "Swedish school; cols. Lindquist, lindgren Blixen finecke; though each had their own way of explaining it they all seemed to emphasize mobilization of the shoulders , and, on the riders part "bun control:lol:"" Is his Craig S. along yyhose lines?

As I have not ridden with the three people you mention, I am not qualified to provide a comparison.

[stryder]

[QUOTE=Timex;4910320]

And Diana, I think the showing info was being looked for less as a yardstick to measure what sort of trainer he is, and more as clarification as to what he states on his website. I mean, if *i* had all these championships won, I would at least state from what shows. Know what I mean?[QUOTE]

I suppose so. I mean, I won a bunch of newspaper reporting and writing awards when I was starting out. They're only tangentially related to what I do now as a publisher of community magazines. Some of the awards are decades old. Do they matter anymore?

Craig is much more engaged with what he's learning now than what he did decades ago. I'd guess the show career is interesting or important to some people. I am indifferent about it.

[poltroon]

Craig Stevens is a net.personality and he has internet postings going back for something like 20 years, most infamously on rec.equestrian.

[Beam Me Up]

Pretty sure the one on 15 in Leesburg is "American Academy of Equestrian Sciences."
Know nothing of it, just drive by the sign a lot.

[Timex]

Whether or not you're indifferent to it or not, *he* put it out there on his website. It also speaks to his....credibility? Knowledge? Not sure what word(s) I'm looking for. But if he is so beyond that, then he should either take that sentance out, or note WHAT he won and where, so he doesn't get asked these pesky types of questions. Lol

[Foxtrot's]

I've met Craig. I've listened to a clinic when a friend of mine was riding in it.
He is deeply interested in the history of riding and has a lot of knowledge. He is who he is and like all instructors suits some and not others. None of which is grounds for this kind of public antagonism....I'm disappointed that a thread, started in October 2006 (!) is continuing in this way. C'mon COTHers, show your nice sides.

[saje]

C'mon COTHers, show your nice sides.

Nice is as nice does.

People need to speak the truth as they see it, and relate their experiences. There is way too much PC 'don't rock the boat, don't say anything negative, ever' out there.

He may be very nice and knowledgeable (about the history of riding) man, but from all the YouTube videos I watched and all the anecdotal things I've heard, he is not someone I'd choose to train with. Audit a clinic? Yes, perhaps, if it was convenient.

Life isn't fluff and sunshine, nor is this place.

[Foxtrot's]

It's not about being PC. It's not aboout telling the truth. Do you know the man personally? It is about common decency -- in short supply sometimes around here -- meh - it is the internet and there are all types....best to press the ignore button. Take him or leave him, just don't assassinate him - that is unfair.

[4xhoof]

Nice is as nice does.

People need to speak the truth as they see it, and relate their experiences. There is way too much PC 'don't rock the boat, don't say anything negative, ever' out there.

He may be very nice and knowledgeable (about the history of riding) man, but from all the YouTube videos I watched and all the anecdotal things I've heard, he is not someone I'd choose to train with. Audit a clinic? Yes, perhaps, if it was convenient.

Life isn't fluff and sunshine, nor is this place.

I agree with this. There are so many out there who claim to be trainers/instructors that it gets difficult to wade through who really knows and who is just making it up as the go alone. Anyone can read and quote theory. But can they really ride a horse and apply their claimed knowledge? Several wanna be trainers I have met cannot not and that is too bad for the horse and rider.

[Nojacketrequired]

(i.e. don't squeeze to tell him to go forward, pull back on both reins to tell him to go backwards, and push with your seat at the same time because all three of those things mean different things and should stay that way).

WOW.

I'm almost beyond words.

(Insert the "I coulda had a v-8" emoticon here)

WHY didn't anyone ever think of the separation of the aids before this Craig guy came along? CENTURIES of great masters obviusly missed it.

Whew. SO glad this guy came up with it before the idea was lost forever.

NJR

[Don Raphaelo Rollkurista]

It is not assigned to the people on this board to ferret out anyone not up their own high standards.Research the man all that you would like.As subjective as dressage is when it is well performed these types of character and professional attacks are immoral!This type of forums gives savy users great power.Please use it fairly.I fail to understand why it is so very difficult for people to ask themselves,"will what I am about to do unfairly hurt someone?"If it were true,which I believe it is not in C.S.'s case, that some man or woman trying to make a business as a trainer/instructor was not as good as they thought they were,are we to picket in front of their driveway to warn others of a mediocre dressage trainer?This internet poison in much worse than that!

[saje]

Alrighty then, don't like discussion of the man, the myth, the legend? (:p)

Discuss these then:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FoundationForEquus

No seat? No leg? Really?

[Don Raphaelo Rollkurista]

This remains outragious!I looked at the vidoes.Nothing great or terrible about them.Just riding instruction.Is an old man like myself the only one who understands why this wrong and a disservice to Craig Stevens and demeaning to yourselves if you participate in this?There is no way he could possibly defend himself!He should not have to!

[WSQHGal]

There is no way he could possibly defend himself!He should not have to!


You're right, he should not have to, and if he is who claims to be then his reputation will speak for itself. I do not know anything about this man, and for that reason I will not say anything about him personally. I would, however, take the opinions (with a HUGE grain of salt, mind you) of fellow horsey peoples. If a lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about him as a trainer, I would guess there is a reason. Doesn't mean I wouldn't watch him if I had the chance, but I probably wont seek him out based on what I hear of him here and what I see on his website.

[Timex]

I, as a professional trainer and instructor, know that my reputation can be helped or hindered by my own words, by how and what I say. Notice, I'm not exactly the most well-known poster for 2 reasons. 1) I'm busy enough that I don't have all that much time to be online (although this blackberry is allowing me much more COTH time!) And 2) I tend to be careful and think through what I say, before I hit that send button. This guy, on the other hand, apparently has gone off, frequently and at great length, and in rather argumentative tones. Which seems to be how a lot of posters here developed a sour taste in their mouths about him. So, who has really done in his reputation? A few posters here, or the man, himself? I'd be willing to bet you that you would find more posters that were turned off due to his own writing, and the way *he* put himself out there, then from anything said here.

[ToN Farm]

This is the first time I've participated in any thread about CS even though I am familiar with his name since I came on the net circa 1998.

I have to agree mostly with Don Raphael. What bothers me most is how opinions are formed about people based on what gets passed around through the internet buddy system as opposed to what one has experienced first hand.

I can't imagine what has gone on in the past to generate so much dislike for this man. Crappy trainers are a dime a dozen; what makes this one stand out? If he has embellished his resume, or even lied, so what? So have many other people.

I've been to his website a couple of times and viewed pics and now this latest video clip that Saje provided. I didn't see anything cruel or really noteworthy in any of it. His appearance is sloppy, and that is a turnoff to me personally and he doesn't seem to have top quality horses or talented riders to work with either, which makes me suspicious. Still, it appears to me that he is minding his own business and not bothering any of us, so why do we need to pick on him.

[ToN Farm]

If a lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about him as a trainer, I would guess there is a reason. A lot of people have bad things to say about Anky and Patrik Kittel, too. Think about it. I think the main thing is to consider the source.

[poltroon]

I can't imagine what has gone on in the past to generate so much dislike for this man. Crappy trainers are a dime a dozen; what makes this one stand out? If he has embellished his resume, or even lied, so what? So have many other people.

I don't really care one way or another, but what has gone on is that for years he was a prolific and argumentative poster on rec.equestrian about how riding should be done, about how he and only a few old masters did it truly correctly, etc etc etc.

Then, when people saw him in person, they did not feel their expectations were met. He held himself out as an international level trainer and clinician who was too principled and ethical to show, and those people found him at best ordinary. (This was before you could post video on the internet.) And they would post that... maybe not right off, but perhaps in a reply to a post of his.

And then he would reply with an attack and the arguments went x10.

So that's why he stands out, and why so many people here even know the name. And why people got out the popcorn in the first few replies.

[Coppers mom]

This is the first time I've participated in any thread about CS even though I am familiar with his name since I came on the net circa 1998.

I have to agree mostly with Don Raphael. What bothers me most is how opinions are formed about people based on what gets passed around through the internet buddy system as opposed to what one has experienced first hand.

I can't imagine what has gone on in the past to generate so much dislike for this man. Crappy trainers are a dime a dozen; what makes this one stand out? If he has embellished his resume, or even lied, so what? So have many other people.

Completely agreed. I honestly can't believe threads like this :no:

There are practically no comments from people who have actually cliniced with him, and the ones that are here are drowned out by the people who just don't like him because, why? He has a crappy website? Almost fifteen years ago he typed too much and didn't like it when people poke him with sticks? How ridiculous. This is mass trolling at it's finest.

Here's a bit of advice. Get a life. I cannot believe that anyone is so bored with themselves that they spend so much time on the internet defaming someone they don't know and have absolutely zero experience with, and actually get disappointed when there is no train wreck within the first three pages. From what I can see, the guy was just unlucky enough to have someone stumble across his site while in a bad mood, and the rest of the clearly unfulfilled group jumped on the band wagon.

[poltroon]

What got people particularly hot under the collar was his claim that a horse could be trained to Grand Prix level in a only a year.

He invited people to come and visit and see for themselves. I guess some did.

I have no idea if he still advocates that schedule.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_frm/thread/2defe245a3ba8fc8/4a65a5d977d3048d?lnk=gst&q=craig+p.+stephens&rnum=1&hl=en

[4xhoof]

What got people particularly hot under the collar was his claim that a horse could be trained to Grand Prix level in a only a year.



Hold the phone... I have heard that exact same line from a person who also has claimed to be a classical dressage trainer/instructor. Same 'trainer' also has a lot of interesting ideas that raise eyebrows and has loud, negative outbursts about all things horse related that do not agree with personal ideology.

Why does this occur with some people? Is it a need to have their ideas and training techniques deamed acceptable? Some of these trainers may have a good plan but when they come across so negative or so over the top, they ruin their credablity.

Never having met this craig person, I do think that the opinion of the horse community at large does hold some weight. Although, his videos are fairly standard, nothing really stands out. If I was closer to WA, I would go audit a clinic just for personal info.

[lstevenson]

This remains outragious!I looked at the vidoes.Nothing great or terrible about them.Just riding instruction.



Sorry, but many of the things he says are just plain WRONG, and I hate for people looking to learn about dressage to get wrong information. And why are all of the horses in his videos hollow with their hind legs out behind them?

Take the shoulder in video for example.... inside rein is the only aid for shoulder in?? Sure anyone can make their horse move sideways by using a lot of inside rein. But how about bend through the body? How does an inside rein only bend the horse through the body? Reins can only bend the neck. It seems to me like he doesn't understand the difference between bend and flexion.

What he showed in the video was simply a leg yield done with the reins (since he says to use no leg). There is a big difference between leg yield and a shoulder in, with the SI having bend through the body and engagement, and the outside hind leg NOT stepping to the outside.

And this quote from the half pass video actually has me laughing - "the inside rein provides impulsion". I've never heard ANYONE even try to imply such a thing before. Reins direct impulsion, and when used in conjunction with the seat they "store" impulsion. They certainly don't create it.

[Donella]

The guy is a total embarrassment to our sport. \\ He has absolutely no clue what he is talking about and the last thing he should be doing is taking peoples money in exchange for instruction. Should be the other way around!

[saje]

Welcome to the world of horses - where your favorite trainer makes other people cringe.

If you're happy in your work with him, and are scoring well and moving up the levels in a satisfactory way, well great and good for you.

I don't like what I saw in the videos. Don't know the man personally so can't comment there, but I do not agree with much of his teaching. Actually even though he says no leg or seat, I'm seeing it used. Subtle, but it's there.

I don't buy it, at all.

And while the High School movements may be impressive and all, I just want to be able to put in a good solid 2nd to 3rd level test (I'm an eventer so its Training or Prelim for me actually) I really have no need for courbettes and caprioles.

Just My Opinion here.

[Donella]

[edit]

See...this is why this kind of thing annoys me SO much..because after every newby ammy rider in America rides with him we have to hear about the horrendous evils of riding with contact, how modern dressage is the end of the world as we know it and all the anti rk bs that swamps these boards. Because people like this run around teaching BS about loose reinin it around,no contact ect and how this is apparently" classical" riding. Seriously annoying and anger producing for me.

[pintopiaffe]

Um, he can, and does defend himself on the 'net.

methinks thou dost protest too much.

:sigh:

Original is FOUR years old folks.

[CatOnLap]

well, Don Raphaello and Donella, there ain't no such thing as bad publicity.

CS continues to have a thriving lesson cadre and gives regular clinics in the local areas around here and many people enjoy his rather laid back style and flamboyant character.

No one would have even heard of this guy except that he has previously proven himself to possess an slightly inflated sense of self worth and skills (um- anyone here fit that model?) and to be a rather ordinary rider for someone who can actually train the higher levels. ( and not many people on this thread can make that claim).

Like him or not, these sorts of threads do add to his fame and recognizability and in business, recognizability is everything. People do not remember specifically what is said, but if someone is familiar, they will tend to be influenced.

[WBLover]

OK, so if he can train to the upper levels, what level are you training/showing Stryder et al who rides with him? Did he get you there? Not being snarky, just asking!

[stryder]

OK, so if he can train to the upper levels, what level are you training/showing Stryder et al who rides with him? Did he get you there? Not being snarky, just asking!

I don't show, WBLover. I did as a child in Arizona, but then didn't ride for more than 35 years. I'm just not interested in showing. No trailer, no time, no desire. I started dressage lessons with Craig more than 3 years ago.

I'm working on flying changes and canter pirouettes. Locally, other riders are working on about the same things.

Then there are his clinic students in the US, Canada, the UK, Sweden and Finland. I assume some of them show, but don't know the specifics. Several of his European students were accepted into Philippe Karl's program.

[NOMIOMI1]

Bah.

Don't know a thing about him.

Pics show a canter shot without any visible connection.

Some trotting ones with his hands at his crotch.

For dressage these are not desired traits for a trainer :lol:

[Alexandra Irish]

Being negative to a fellow trainer gets us no where. In life or our own goals, so why bother? Let people figure out what works for them or what does not.

[alibi_18]

Came accross the man regarding his desire to translate french classical dressage riding books to english.
Got a copy of his 'Questions Equestres' from General L'Hotte.
Badly translated, poorly edited. And was, indeed, pissed when I told him so.

It was more of an explanation of what he understood of the book than a translation as he wanted it to be readable for everyone... Most of the french language subtilities were gone and his (Craigs) beliefs were clearly pushed thru the text. Glad I have read the french version first...

Been told his staff/trainee were doing the translation as part of their stage...( if bilingual o course!) were rewarded with a copy of the final 'book' for free.

Oh...and I got a video of one of his theoretical classes. That was, as well, pretty bad to watch and listen. Really far from being pro stuff. And it is not me being that picky here. Really. His YouTube stuff seem 10x better in content and for the filming/editing.

He sells those books and videos. Glad I got mine for free...

[AnitaAnne]

i rode with him! Anyone want to hear about it???

[AnitaAnne]

Hi all! I am new to this forum but I could no longer NOT respond to this post!

i have participated in two clinics with Craig...If you want the truth, continue reading!

(Short history of me)

i have riden since I was 10 yrs old & took lessons when I could. I have started (backed) three horses completely by myself. Learnedd how to drive as a child & "broke a unriden horse to the cart, also by myslf. I have competed as a child in western pleasure & timed events. Switched to "english" for the thrill of jumping, too many falls & a mare that refused to go within 20 feet of another horse caused me to try Dressage. Had a terrible trainer that kept name-dropping all the time & teling me i "wasn't ready" to canter the entire time. i got smart after attending a show or two & watching her ride.

i have competed at recognized shows, obtaining qualifying scores thru First level on a small, unregistered quarter horse. A horse I trained myself with some help from highly rated clinicians when i could afford it.

I am not an expert rider, or a professional. After a big change in my finances, I was no longer able to afford the recognized shows & kind of "dropped out". Well, I met a person while attending a clinic with a superior, very well know clinician. After talking with her, i started bringing my challenging horse out to ride at her place. She told me she was hosting a clinic with the man she trained with & invited me to attend.

So i did. What I did not do was google his name first. i just went. The first time was quite horrible. All we did was walk & he spent much of the time just standing holding my horse's reins & telling me how wonderful his program was & how bad "competative dressage" is. I have light hands, but I do ride with contact, even when I let the horse chew the reins out of my hands on a circle. i was not allowed to even hold both reins. I have riden with at least 10 different dressage clinicians over the years, and one thing they all have in common is that they want to see the horse move at all three gaits & watch you warm up your horse, BEFORE they begin to work with you. Not Craig! I was not even allowed to trot, even though I was there two days for two different lessons!

So why did I go again? Stupidity maybe? I thought well, maybe we were just having a bad day. Maybe he just wants to see if I am committed before he works with me. So I tried again. Much worse! my horse HATES walking anyway, and gets bored & impatient easily. He is not a beginer horse! I started him myself & I know him & his moods very well.

So what does Craig do? Again, walking & talking. The second day, I was yelled at for trying to lunge my own horse before the "lesson". My poor horse was going crazy being stalled for two days then just walking for maybe 15 minutes out of the 45 minute "lesson". So the first day, I am told that I am a terrible rider & my horse is a saint for putting up with me. (Please note that I rode the stew out of him before I loaded up to go to the clinic site) the next lesson the next day, when my horse is irritated & acting half crazy from inactivity, I am told that my horse is DANGEROUS & I must get a more suitable horse right away!

We were not allowed to film any part of any of his lessons, annother "first" in my experience.

I left before my third lesson. I had had quite enough of the whole sorry mess. As i drove back home, i thought never again!

None of his "devoted followers" is a competitor. Only one person was allowed to go faster than a trot. Everyone was made to ride with only one rein much of the time. He was not giving anyone directions as to what to do. The ones that were better riders & not looking too horrible (besides the lack of impulsion & floppy reins) were all experienced riders & taking the initiative on their own. He just continually put down their efforts though. I never heard one "good job" or any other kind of praise. We were all hopelessly beneath his greatness! He actually got on one of the horses, which was a struggle for him, then guess what they did??? Yep, they walked! The horse was strung out & on the forehand and looked much worse than when the owner was riding.

I have seen the Spanish Riding School perform. I have studied Classical horsemanship & I can state with total certainty, that Craig does not teach any kind of Dressage, classical or otherwise.

I must give thanks to each and every person who made comments to this post hinting that Craig was a "teacher to avoid". I really, really, REALLY, wish that I had read this BEFORE I wasted money on him.

If he claimed to be an instructor that was teaching some new method that he invented, I would not have bothered with him. But to claim that he teaches Dressage is an insult to the entire Dressage community and that is why people are so critical of him.

I feel really bad for anyone that thinks they are learning Dressage from Craig. Please do research before riding with anyone!!!

If a person can not successfully show their horses under judges, run fast in the other direction!

There are good judges & bad in every sport, but sooner or later, if you are riding correctly, in Dressage or reining or eventing, or any other sport, a judge will notice and give you a good score.

just because a hose does a flying change, does not mean that it is correct. I have seen a huge improvement in the western events since some of these newer instructors are incorperating Dressage principals in their teaching. Those reining horses are now on the bit & doing the changes from back to front. I am speaking of the upper level riders here, not the ones at the $5 local shows that still jerk their horses around.

Please continue this thread FOREVER if it can save even one person from the big mistake I made wasting money on Craig. This was within the last five years, not twenty years ago!

[Beasmom]

Wow, thank you for your insights!

This guy used to come out here frequently. I haven't heard about one of his clinics in the last year or so. Have to wonder if folks finally wised up.

[JackSprats Mom]

ROFLMAO the thread that will never die!!

Least everyone will know not to ever go near this man:lol:

[bethusen]

Oh no.... Not Craig P Stevens :no:.

I'm in NZ and I went to one of his clinics. He does his lecture thing the night before lessons where he talks non stop for about three hours. He certainly talks the talk.

I had two lessons. The first one I took a little TB school master I had, he was a very cute little horse, had some strange habits as he had had staggers a few times in the past and it seemed to have a lasting effect on in nervous system, be he tried so hard. Craig told me that I had schooled him in draw reins and proceeded to do this weird thing where he lifted his head way in the air to "loosen him up". I have never used draw reins on any horse and never will, it took 2 months and 3 bowen sessions to get the horse right from the "loosening" exercise. He spent the rest of the lesson telling me that we really didn't have enough time to do anything and that he wasn't being paid enough :mad:.

The next day I took my new horse (who is now my eventer although when I got him he had only done dressage). Craig again spent the lesson complaining about time and money and telling me how badly trained my horse was and he would need a lot of reschooling to get any sort of basics.

Not to mention that he was down right creepy. Felt the need to touch me far more than necessary :dead:.

A friend rather enjoyed her lesson and at the start of this year went over to train with him. She hated every moment of it and left.

Yup. that's Craig. I worked for him for a while. I did learn some pretty cool stuff from him, and the ultimate goal of his technique for me was to ride on one rein each direction...which is totally awesome, but it took months to get to it, def not clinic material! He brought to light for me the confusion that we create for our horses by using multiple aids at one time, and dumbing it down to one aid at a time is quite lovely, and tail swishing disappeared! His "flexions" suck, though, and I witnessed the effect of them on several horses who came to the barn intact and left needing consistent chiro care afterward, including one that I now own. His in-hand seminar is worth attending, if you don't have to travel far...just DO NOT bring your horse! You will be disappointed if you do. He talks more than he teaches in the traditional sense, and while there is good information, your crotch will go numb as you wait for something to happen. Better to audit and take notes...be prepared for a thick Bronx-like accent, mispronounced words and names, and inappropriate metaphors that are sexually charged.

[bethusen]

So he really is that bad?

Thats kinda what I wanted to know, you see his photo's and I think 'hmmmm ok' but then he's clinicing (allegedly) in NZ and Europe etc etc and I wonder why on earth he would be called back at an international level if he really is as bad as his webiste looks like.

Thought maybe someone would jump on and say he's wonderful and the website doesn't do him justice.

BTW asking because somehow I got a link for an 'in-hand' clinic he's offering and hence the reason I was curious.

I worked for him for a while. His in-hand seminar is worth attending, if you don't have to travel far...just DO NOT bring your horse! You will be disappointed if you do. He talks more than he teaches in the traditional sense, take notes...be prepared for a thick Bronx-like accent, mispronounced words and names, and inappropriate metaphors that are sexually charged. Ask his ever present wife Mary Anne for clarification. You likely will get a better answer from her than from him, as he tends toward pre-recorded messages for answers rather than trying to wrap his brain around your confusion.

His "flexions" suck, and I witnessed the effect of them on several horses who came to the barn intact and left needing consistent chiro care afterward, including one that I now own. Do not use the upward/extension one...hideous! Although he does a good job of reminding us that no flexion is useful if the ears do not stay level....

[bethusen]

I worked for him for a while. I did learn some pretty cool stuff from him, and the ultimate goal of his technique for me was to ride on one rein each direction...which is totally awesome, but it took months to get to it, def not clinic material! He brought to light for me the confusion that we create for our horses by using multiple aids at one time, and dumbing it down to one aid at a time is quite lovely.

His "flexions" suck, though, and I witnessed the effect of them on several horses who came to the barn intact and left needing consistent chiro care afterward, including one that I now own. Although he does a good job of reminding that no flexion has any worth if the ears are not level.

In general, if he practiced what he preached about many things, he'd be golden. He doesn't, necessarily. His preachin' is pretty good at times, although I witnessed some pretty ugly stuff that went directly against his own words.

His in-hand seminar is worth attending if you don't have to travel far...just DO NOT bring your horse! Actually, don't bother bringing your horse for clinics of any nature...you will be disappointed if you do, unless your horse is good at standing quietly for long periods of time and working at the walk almost exclusively. He talks more than he teaches in the traditional sense, and while there is good information, if you're in a riding lesson your crotch will go numb as you wait for something to happen. Better to audit and take notes...(in Snohomish dress warm) be prepared for a thick Bronx-like accent, mispronounced words and names, negative talk about "modern dressage" that will disparage your current trainer's techniques, and inappropriate metaphors that are sexually charged.

Essentially, what for him is the one and only way to train "dressage" (which is his brand of training, just as many trainers have their own brand) can become a healthy tool in your training tool box, and can improve your communication with your horses. You'll need more than a clinic or "intensive" to get it, though. And you'll put up with much unnecessary abuse to get there. For more, feel free to contact me: bethusen@hotmail.com

[AnitaAnne]

Does anyone know Annalise, the one with the draft horse?

[AnitaAnne]

I worked for him for a while. His in-hand seminar is worth attending, if you don't have to travel far...just DO NOT bring your horse! You will be disappointed if you do. He talks more than he teaches in the traditional sense, take notes...be prepared for a thick Bronx-like accent, mispronounced words and names, and inappropriate metaphors that are sexually charged. Ask his ever present wife Mary Anne for clarification. You likely will get a better answer from her than from him, as he tends toward pre-recorded messages for answers rather than trying to wrap his brain around your confusion.

His "flexions" suck, and I witnessed the effect of them on several horses who came to the barn intact and left needing consistent chiro care afterward, including one that I now own. Do not use the upward/extension one...hideous! Although he does a good job of reminding us that no flexion is useful if the ears do not stay level....

It should not take months to work off of one rein...actually, when a horse is first started, the rider only uses one rein to teach the horse the meaning of the bit. This is why the test of a horse being on the bit willingly, is to soften the inside rein. A good rider continuosly softens the inside hand as a reward. Watch one of those western trainers on TV a few times & you will see that the first thing they do is a "one hand stop". If a rider has never had experience starting a horse, they would think that one-rein riding is some kind of major concept. It is not. However, if you watch a trainer starting a horse, they quickly progress to the two reins once the horse understands.

Every horse I have started, the first thing I do is use one rein then nearly immediately go to two reins for more precice control. I will do this for about two weeks, the start asking for more consistant contact.

Continuing to use one rein makes for a crooked horse. The important thing is to go forward freely.

The only excepting I made is the horse I trained to the cart b4 backing. Cart training makes a nice straight horse & they can be worked at a younger age to strengthen them. The horse then can be riden easily right from the start.

A trainer that keeps riders on the basics too long creates the very fear that keeps them as perpetual begining riders & thus a good steady source of income.

Always ride under the best & highest achieving instructors that you can afford. I get more out of one good lesson a month (that I ALWAYS film) than twice a week lessons from an instructor at a lower level. The upper level instructors do not waste time advertising for beging students or unhappy or scared riders. They are in high demand and want the best students to impart knowledge too.

If you want to learn good work in hand, go to a place that teaches vaulting or even circus type performing horses. The method Craig uses is not correct from the ground or the saddle.

[bethusen]

Does anyone know Annalise, the one with the draft horse?

Yes. she boarded with Craig for a while, no longer there from what I hear.

[JGHIRETIRE]

Annalise and Pumba are now at Traumhauf in Carnation. I ran into Pumba one day LOL It was great to see him.

[bethusen]

[QUOTE=AnitaAnne;5190623]It should not take months to work off of one rein...actually, when a horse is first started, the rider only uses one rein to teach the horse the meaning of the bit. This is why the test of a horse being on the bit willingly, is to soften the inside rein. A good rider continuosly softens the inside hand as a reward.
Every horse I have started, the first thing I do is use one rein then nearly immediately go to two reins for more precice control. I will do this for about two weeks, the start asking for more consistant contact.

Continuing to use one rein makes for a crooked horse. The important thing is to go forward freely"[QUOTE=AnitaAnne;5190623]

The work on one rein that I spoke of was an amazing experience. Not on green horses. W/T/C backing, Piaffe, flying changes and a whole lot of happy, with the lightest of contact on just the inside rein, and legs and seat quiet, no driving, straightness the goal. I think for me the reason it takes months and not useful in a clinic setting is because it is very far removed from how we all learned to ride "dressage." Again...not the be all and end all, just a nice tool in my tool box of training. I'm glad to have learned it, and I've moved on.

BTW...I offered my posts not to be criticized or to criticize, but to answer the questions posted about him. I tried to be honest, and am not looking for your affirmations or denouncements of his techniques. His basic premise of lightness and simplification of the aids is sound, but his delivery method of this info often leaves much to be desired.

'Nuff said....now go put your costume on your horse and have a Happy Halloween!!:)

[bethusen]

Annalise and Pumba are now at Traumhauf in Carnation. I ran into Pumba one day LOL It was great to see him.

I couldn't remember the name of the barn...and that must've hurt, running into Pumba!!!:lol:

[JGHIRETIRE]

ROFL -
I couldn't believe he was there!! See this big percheron standing in the stall with Pumba on it. I was so happy to see him - he's doing great and so is Annalise - She wasn't there when I was.

I couldn't remember the name of the barn...and that must've hurt, running into Pumba!!!:lol:

[AnitaAnne]

One more little thing, If one has never ridden a really fit horse, they would not understand how much skill & patience it takes to ride one.

My little grade QH was fit enough to counter-canter a 15 meter circle many times. I rode him for 1-2 hours nearly everyday, much at canter to strengthen his long back, and most people would say he was a very calm horse.

However, he had soft, thin walled hooves & one time was put on stall rest for 2 weeks to keep him out of the mud. The first time I was allowed to hand-walk him, he went straight up in the air, i'm talking all four feet off the ground. It was amazing. He went straight up about 5 times before I could get a step forward.

I think if you would really watch an FEI level rider work their horse you would realize that the horse is very fit & can sometimes be hard to control. The answer is not to "train them back down to walk". The energy & impulsion must be channeled into those brilliant movements.

Watch a hyperactive child one time & you might know what I mean.

And yes, one can usually learn something from everyone, and I certainly did learn something from Craig...I learnt to never attend a clinic or lesson unless I can see that person ride first! Or if they are elderly, I want to see his or her students ride & show. I learnt to be cynical & distrustful.

Even if all you want to do is trail ride, the instructor should be willing to teach you out on the trail & maybe show in trail classes.

many people I know if they don't have time to back young horses themselves send them to a "cowboy" to start them. Why do you think the clinicians like Clinton Anderson know about Dressage principals?

[spirithorse]

“Modern competitive dressage has a major influence on equestrian teaching. Although many turn away from it, there are very few with enough equestrian culture, passion and courage to swim against the tide and propose alternatives that are worthy of interest.
Craig Stevens is one such person.”

Philippe Karl (http://www.philippekarl.com/)
Ecuyer of the Cadre Noir from 1985

Interesting posts considering I found this on his website.

[AnitaAnne]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, thanks bethusen for your imput, that is very good advice to not bring a horse!

i was not meaning to critisize you, but I really do feel that he causes more harm than any good one might get out of it.

I have not seen long term results of his methods, to see the damage that is aparently done to these horses.

My point was to think outside the box & go get help from the experts...if one wants to work on their seat, a much less expensive option is to go to a good western trainer & learn to sit up straight & quiet on a nice, gentle horse. Learn the individual aids & the other basics.

Here is a link to a vidoe of Nuno Oliveira. Watch it & notice the horse is so "ready" that the horse must be held for him to get on. Every movement is full of energy. This is not the same thing at all as the riding one rein piaffe is not correct, look at this work with one hand, it is different, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&p=9D6EC4EC4139737B&playnext=1&index=10

[AnitaAnne]

Annalise and Pumba are now at Traumhauf in Carnation. I ran into Pumba one day LOL It was great to see him.

Good to hear they are there, Traumhalf is a nice place:D

[JGHIRETIRE]

It's gorgeous!! A few days ago there was a picture of Pumba with a mini - it was a really cute picture!!

[rainechyldes]

That is because you never saw him on a horse. As a human he was horrible but put him on a any horse and the horse would transform in 20 minutes he def. had the touch.

Just goes to show how different people are in our likes and dislikes. I knew Nuno for a fairly long time, rode with him and socialized as well. I enjoyed his company a lot.

[AnitaAnne]

Just goes to show how different people are in our likes and dislikes. I knew Nuno for a fairly long time, rode with him and socialized as well. I enjoyed his company a lot.

I am not quite sure what you meant by that comment?

[Foxtrot's]

Just pointing out that this thread is four years old. Probably time to put it to bed for the last time.

[stryder]

Just pointing out that this thread is four years old. Probably time to put it to bed for the last time.

I keep hoping, but it doesn't happen. I don't believe this thread would have been allowed to continue as the forum is presently moderated. Other threads that spring up in the same vein are locked, or there's a flurry of PMs. This one just keeps going, and going...

I just want to say that next week, I'll celebrate my fifth anniversary of studying with Craig Stevens. I have learned a great deal, feel blessed to own a horse that he trained, and generally don't understand people's fascination with him.

Over just the past year or so, Craig has become a softer, gentler version of himself, as he learns more about Mediterranean horsemanship and incorporates it into his training and work with people. That said, he will not ever become a sensitive new-age guy.

People who want/need to be told they're brilliant riders, have wonderfully trained horses, etc. should ride for someone else. That simply isn't the way it works with Craig. And yet, several times I have heard him say, "that's quite good" or "yes!" or "there!" which coming from him, is high praise.

Much has been said about his metaphors. I probably have heard them all. They don't bother me, because I understand how difficult it is to use English to convey a language of touch. They aren't personal to me, but merely a device to help me learn.

Craig cannot see inside my head. When I do not understand him, it is my responsibility to tell him I'm confused. In the now hundreds of lessons with him, I've yet to encounter a time he can't explain something a different way to help me learn. Sometimes this is not easy, because words can fail - either me to form a question, or him to answer it. Sometimes we both chew on the question until the next lesson, and then he has answer for me that explains it perfectly, and works like a charm.

Fairly often, I read/hear questions from people who supposedly are more advanced riders than I am. They are working with a trainer, they show, whatever. The answer is so obvious to me, thanks to Craig.

Someone posted the Philippe Karl quote off Craig's web-site. Yes, it's true. Several of Craig's advanced students from the UK and Europe are completing or have completed Karl's program. How many other instructor's students are represented there to the extent that Craig is?

Ride with Craig, don't ride with him, whatever works for you.

[Nojacketrequired]

your crotch will go numb as you wait for something to happen.

:lol:

NJR

[AnitaAnne]

That is my very favorite quote Nojacketrequired!

Too bad my horse could not go numb with me, he was fortunate enough to not have to hear the endless talk saying nothing...

Fortunately for me, my instructor doesn't need to see inside my head or wait for a question to help me learn. She is a USDF bronze, silver & gold metalist, with the extraordinary ability to be able to train horses to the FEI levels and to teach students to train their horses to the FEI levels.

In 3 years I witnessed a 65 year old retiree go from a rank beginer with a chair seat on a very green Lippizon/QH cross to a rider sitting in perfect alignment and qualifying at 2nd level regionals by taking weekly lessons with her. She never once even had to get on his horse!

Also one of her young rider students she trained took her 13 hand+/- pony from a fat pasture ornament to forth level competition!

But then, the lessons are not spent talking about how wrong everyone in the entire competition world is. The lessons are spent focusing on the traditional, accepted, progressive training scale...Dressage.

She has the respect & admiration of her students & her peers.

i am for the top because i deserve the best. So do all of you!

[AnitaAnne]

For those of you with a sense of humor – I saw this out on the web – hope you enjoy it

Top Ten Signs your Instructor can’t teach Dressage
10) He won’t let anyone video the lesson (and pictures must be approved)
9) He talks forever without actually saying anything
8) He name-drops & quotes others instead of teaching
7) He says he isn’t being paid enough
6) He claims he is misunderstood because people take his words out of context
5) He claims to have learnt much about collection from gaited trainers
4) He actively discourages students from ever competing
3) He advertises heavily for fearful riders & those riders who have the delusion that top trainers are abusing & forcing their huge warmbloods to perform
2) He has the delusion that all Dressage judges do not understand the pure form as only he can teach it & truly understand it.
1) He says that all the Dressage movements can be performed with only one rein and subjects his students to fowl language

[BetterOffRed]

Y'all! I didn't know or care who Craig P Stevens was when I started reading this thread. And what do you think shows up on my FB News Feed? Someone commented on Craig Stevens on one of DT's posts! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyway, look what I found among all the pictures of people standing around and walking their horses? A picture of Mr. Steven's cantering a horse. I thought canter wasn't allowed?! ;) At least I think it was a canter. My horse would be so embarrassed if I posted a picture of him looking like this.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs309.snc3/29083_111504788893014_100001004809896_69275_753362 4_n.jpg

[mbm]

Y'all! i didnt know or care who BetteroffRed was until she started posting comments on CoTH. And do you know what shows up when I click on her blog? Images of BetteroffRed ! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyway, look what I found among all the posts on her blog : a picture of BoR fully tacked up and ready to ride and OMG!!!!! look he is caked in mud on his face! My horse would be so embarrassed if i posted a picture of him looking like this ZOMG!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mM7EUdVU7tA/TL5evwi_l0I/AAAAAAAAAF4/ReR2yVEa3UE/s1600/pumpkin.JPG

[Don Raphaelo Rollkurista]

It's time to cut this out. I dont know this guy but I am really tired of reading about people beating up on him. Just dont ride with him. Or do! There is no way if he doesnt hurt horses for a living, and there is no way I believe he does, that he deserves this! Leave him alone and move on!

[mbm]

DRR please pm a mod and ask them. i have and i know other s have too. but for some reason this is allowed to go on and on and ... on....

[indyblue]

Just for learnings sake, what is the bit that Craig has in the horses mouth? I'm not familiar with it at all.

[Beasmom]

It's a Baucher snaffle bit.

[AnitaAnne]

Y'all! i didnt know or care who BetteroffRed was until she started posting comments on CoTH. And do you know what shows up when I click on her blog? Images of BetteroffRed ! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyway, look what I found among all the posts on her blog : a picture of BoR fully tacked up and ready to ride and OMG!!!!! look he is caked in mud on his face! My horse would be so embarrassed if i posted a picture of him looking like this ZOMG!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mM7EUdVU7tA/TL5evwi_l0I/AAAAAAAAAF4/ReR2yVEa3UE/s1600/pumpkin.JPG

Why are you attacking BetteroffRed?

Looks like a nice, cute horse. Reminds me of one I used to have:)

The subject is Craig Stevens, specifically does anyone know anything about him. So we are letting people know about him, trying to lift the veil of secrecy around him.

[AnitaAnne]

It's time to cut this out. I dont know this guy but I am really tired of reading about people beating up on him. Just dont ride with him. Or do! There is no way if he doesnt hurt horses for a living, and there is no way I believe he does, that he deserves this! Leave him alone and move on!

Cut what out? This topic is to find out what anyone has heard of Craig Stevens. That is what we are all responding too.

Those of us that have ridden with him are telling our opinions of him & his methods. There is much secrecy surrounding him because he does not allow taping and tries to delete any information that he doesn't personally post, or that his few followers post.

You are inocently assisting their effort to stay secret.

Read & learn.

:D

[AnitaAnne]

It's a Baucher snaffle bit.

Is this a legal Dressage bit? Do you have a picture of it? Is this a typical bit that Craig uses?

[AnitaAnne]

Y'all! I didn't know or care who Craig P Stevens was when I started reading this thread. And what do you think shows up on my FB News Feed? Someone commented on Craig Stevens on one of DT's posts! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyway, look what I found among all the pictures of people standing around and walking their horses? A picture of Mr. Steven's cantering a horse. I thought canter wasn't allowed?! ;) At least I think it was a canter. My horse would be so embarrassed if I posted a picture of him looking like this.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs309.snc3/29083_111504788893014_100001004809896_69275_753362 4_n.jpg

Thanks for posting a picture of Craig riding! Keep spreading the word...

Does anyone else have pictures of Craig or one of his lessons to post?

Afterall, this thread is intended to provide information about Craig Stevens. Pictures or video clips can really help people see, especially if they are visual learners...

The horse is not in a good frame is he?? Craig does not appear to be asking for aceptance of the bit either...very unbalanced horse...look at all that muscle on the underside of his neck...horse is very hollow & looks like he has been riden incorrectly for a long time

[hitchinmygetalong]

Is this a legal Dressage bit? Do you have a picture of it? Is this a typical bit that Craig uses?


http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157878

[stryder]

The horse is not in a good frame is he?? Craig does not appear to be asking for aceptance of the bit either...very unbalanced horse...look at all that muscle on the underside of his neck...horse is very hollow & looks like he has been riden incorrectly for a long time

I assume this is a photo taken of Craig at a clinic? In which he was asked to ride a participant's horse? This is not a horse I'm familiar with. It isn't either of Craig's saddles, either.

It looks like Craig is asking for a small flexion, to soften the horse's jaw and poll.

[stryder]

Is this a typical bit that Craig uses?

Craig prefers the baucher snaffle. Maybe one of his school horses goes in a d-ring or eggbutt snaffle, it's been a while since I looked.

[BetterOffRed]

Y'all! i didnt know or care who BetteroffRed was until she started posting comments on CoTH. And do you know what shows up when I click on her blog? Images of BetteroffRed ! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyway, look what I found among all the posts on her blog : a picture of BoR fully tacked up and ready to ride and OMG!!!!! look he is caked in mud on his face! My horse would be so embarrassed if i posted a picture of him looking like this ZOMG!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mM7EUdVU7tA/TL5evwi_l0I/AAAAAAAAAF4/ReR2yVEa3UE/s1600/pumpkin.JPG


I heart this horse like whoa! Thanks for posting pictures from my blog! I need the traffic to get Bailey the Highway dog adopted! It was awfully nice of you to help get the word out there!

Here's the difference between your post and mine. I am not a trainer, and I don't pretend to be one on the world wide web or in Real Life. I'm not hanging my shingle out there...this a blog about riding for fun! If Mr. Stevens is going to put himself out there as a trainer, I would expect to see much better imagery of him of doing correct training.

[Gallop~on~Grant]

Awwww. That was so unfair... After working a 13 hour day and going out to ride, a ghetto groom is all you are going to get...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mM7EUdVU7tA/TBhNGTOhHII/AAAAAAAAAAU/JxU3R3prTi0/s320/red+photo.jpg

Here they are in all of their supermodel splendour!!!

[stryder]

There is much secrecy surrounding him because he does not allow taping


Secrecy? Unlike some trainers who insist on an appointment to watch them ride your horse, Craig has an open barn policy. Come anytime. Watch him work your horse, my horse, anybody's horse. You can only come at 3? No problem. He'll re-arrange his training schedule that day so you can watch. Ask questions during his ride, after the ride, whatever you need.

BTW, I have hours of video of him riding/working my horses and of my own lessons.

Doesn't sound very secretive to me.


or that his few followers post.


Followers ... sounds like a cult. Wow. I had no idea. I'll have to ask him about that. But then, I didn't think cult leaders encourage questions? :lol:

[AnitaAnne]

Secrecy? Unlike some trainers who insist on an appointment to watch them ride your horse, Craig has an open barn policy. Come anytime. Watch him work your horse, my horse, anybody's horse. You can only come at 3? No problem. He'll re-arrange his training schedule that day so you can watch. Ask questions during his ride, after the ride, whatever you need.

BTW, I have hours of video of him riding/working my horses and of my own lessons.

Doesn't sound very secretive to me.



Followers ... sounds like a cult. Wow. I had no idea. I'll have to ask him about that. But then, I didn't think cult leaders encourage questions? :lol:

So post some video of your lessons! I would love to see your horse & you show off what you have learned from Craig!

I do not know what trainers you are refering to so far as schedules go...but of course the lessons must be scheduled to accomidate everyone! Personally, I have never sent a horse to a trainer, so I have no knowledge of that system, only me riding my horse during the lesson.

But we digress, you mention that Craig is like a cult leader?

[stryder]

So post some video of your lessons! I would love to see your horse & you show off what you have learned from Craig!

That simply won't happen. Those videos are for my instruction and enjoyment, and for the enjoyment of my friends.

I do not know what trainers you are refering to so far as schedules go...but of course the lessons must be scheduled to accomidate everyone! Personally, I have never sent a horse to a trainer, so I have no knowledge of that system, only me riding my horse during the lesson.


Because you're new to this forum, perhaps you aren't familiar with the threads from people who have sent their horses out for training, and then can't even schedule a time to watch the horse in work. Or they do schedule a firm appointment, travel some distance, to find trainer is sick, had to run out ... one excuse after another.


But we digress, you mention that Craig is like a cult leader?

No, I did not.

[mbm]

Awwww. That was so unfair... After working a 13 hour day and going out to ride, a ghetto groom is all you are going to get...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mM7EUdVU7tA/TBhNGTOhHII/AAAAAAAAAAU/JxU3R3prTi0/s320/red+photo.jpg

Here they are in all of their supermodel splendour!!!

well it was about as fair as her post attacking a trainer she has never met or seen ride. which was the point i was trying to make.

[BetterOffRed]

Because you're new to this forum, perhaps you aren't familiar with the threads from people who have sent their horses out for training, and then can't even schedule a time to watch the horse in work. Or they do schedule a firm appointment, travel some distance, to find trainer is sick, had to run out ... one excuse after another.



IME, this comment should raise a huge red flag. When you send a horse off for training, the trainer is working for you. Additionally, it is the owner/rider's responsibility to be looking out for the horse's well being while in training. You should be able to schedule an appointment to see the horse being ridden and expect to see it being ridden (assuming that you are showing up at the appointment on time). Or if horses in training are ridden from 8am-11am, you should be able to walk in and see the horses being ridden.

If you are getting a litany of excuses as to why you can't see a horse in training being ridden- you should start questioning the training...from my experience, everytime the above scenario is happening- odds are the horse is not being ridden or something is being done that the owner wouldn't approve.

[stryder]

IME, this comment should raise a huge red flag. When you send a horse off for training, the trainer is working for you. Additionally, it is the owner/rider's responsibility to be looking out for the horse's well being while in training. You should be able to schedule an appointment to see the horse being ridden and expect to see it bein ridden (assuming that you are showing up at the appointment on time). Or if horses in training are ridden from 8am-11am, you should be able to walk in and see the horses being ridden.

If you are getting a litany of excuses as to why you can't see a horse in training being ridden- you should start questioning the training...from my experience, everytime the above scenario is happening- the horse is not being ridden or something is being done that the owner wouldn't approve.

Yes, consistently this is the advice posted on the OTHER threads. I put this into my post because AnitaAnne seems to think there is some secrecy around Craig's methods.

Not once in FIVE YEARS of working with Craig have I encountered ANY secrecy surrounding Craig's training. It's an open book.

[Gallop~on~Grant]

well it was about as fair as her post attacking a trainer she has never met or seen ride. which was the point i was trying to make.

PITTER PATTER, PITTER patter, pitter patter.....

"In the spirit of being fair GOG scampers off to go find a flattering picture of CS."

[stryder]

If Mr. Stevens is going to put himself out there as a trainer, I would expect to see much better imagery of him of doing correct training.

And what does "correct training" look like?

Here's why I ask. One day while waiting for my lesson, I watched Craig ride a young horse that was in for training. Craig seemed to be a bit off balance: , a little forward, then slightly back, a slight side-to-side. Not in any sort of rhythm, but just off balance. "Ah!" he said, and then paused to reward the horse. So I asked what he was working on. Craig said he was training the horse to step under the rider, to help the rider regain balance. Or at least to be more tolerant of an imperfect ammy rider.

Any photo of video taken that day would surely have been taken out of context.

I think there's a big difference between a trainer riding to train, and one riding to show. Some ride to show quite well, and while they may be adept at putting the finishing touches on a horse, they can't start them. Craig isn't interested in showing. He doesn't have time for it, anyway. Most weekends are booked with clinics, intensives, or lessons with people who can't come during the week.

[BetterOffRed]

Here is a link to the Steffen Peter's clinic here in Region 9.

Nothing but correct riding all weekend long.

http://www.lyndonrifedressage.com/2010_Steffen_Peters/steffen_2010.html#

Enjoy!

[mbm]

a real trainer trains, doesn't care what he/she looks like, does what is needed to train the horse. i cant tell you how may times REALLY good trainers have gotten crazy comments from the peanut gallery simply because the peanut gallery has no clue what they are looking at.

think about it: if you are an uneducated rider how can you possibly have any opinion of how a trainer trains? yes, the GOAL is perfect harmony etc, but training can be *interesting* .... by which i don't mean abusive or forced - but the horse needs to LEARN and to do they they make MISTAKES... and the trainer will do what is needed to help them.

A clinic will not show real training. no way no how. or, if it does it wont get good response because stuff wont look perfect.

i think it is crap to attack a trainer that you know nothing about. period.

[Foxtrot's]

This happens so often on COTH -

A new poster signs on specifically to cause trouble, be a troll or sound like an expert - HOWEVER, this poster, AnitaAnne, does not even know what a baucher bit is or if it is legal in dressage; so much for expert. Yet she can go on and on and on putting down someone who makes his living from teaching.

This thread has brought out the worst in some posters - beats me why. Is it fun to hammer on someone, like bullies?

[BetterOffRed]

I don't know AnitaAnne we aren't even in the same state or same coast but I got a very nice PM from her so I think I can say she is neither a troll nor a bully. And if you read all her OTHER non CS posts, she makes sense and has provided nice, thoughtful input to other thread topics. I don't believe she got on to cause trouble, to troll or to bully. Everyone has to start posting somewhere on COTH. I think it is funny that first time posters get labeled a troll or bully if they don't fall into line immediately. AnitaAnne is obviously an independent thinker! :lol:

So what if she didn't know if a baucher was legal for dressage? And she won't be the last one to question it's legality! And I wish I had a dime for every "is this bit legal?" thread on this board.

And if you go and read her first post on this thread, she says that she wishes she had used the board to search for clinician info prior to riding with him because it would have been beneficial and then she posted her clinic review which is okay on COTH too...I don't consider that to be a troll or a bully.

[Go Fish]

This thread has brought out the worst in some posters - beats me why. Is it fun to hammer on someone, like bullies?

Happens all the time...just look up some of the RK threads. Some of the posters on THIS thread are calling people out for rapping on CS, but have no qualms about going on and on about some of the upper level trainers, particularly the Dutch.

[mbm]

Happens all the time...just look up some of the RK threads. Some of the posters on THIS thread are calling people out for rapping on CS, but have no qualms about going on and on about some of the upper level trainers, particularly the Dutch.

well, sort of. i go on and on about a training METHOD aka Rollkur/LDR/Hyperflexion/WTF and the results of that training (ps has nothing to do with nationality either and i find it telling that you even bring it up )

if you can point me to a post where i said horrid things about anky or any other BNT then maybe you have a point.

But note: that i did a lot of research before attacking a METHOD. and i have seen it in use - so i am making comments based on RL experience.

many of the folks on this thread have zero experience with the topic... yet have no qualms about attacking someone who is NOT in the public eye, and who does NOT compete and gain their income from our funding etc. (which by the way might have real life implications for the subject of this thread )

i have no idea how Mr Stevens trains. I have not met him. Even if i did and didnt like what i saw i would never attack him on a board. there are many trainers i have worked with personally who i think suck. do you read me attacking them anywhere?

[indyblue]

Just in defense of AnitaAnne, it was I who asked what the bit is and I have a Baucher . Just didn't recognize it in the photo . I borrowed it off a friend a few months ago and had to ask if it was legal for dressage and I have been riding and competing for 30yrs. Just never used a Baucher. You learn something new everyday don't you?

[stryder]

Just in defense of AnitaAnne, it was I who asked what the bit is

AnitaAnne asked about it in post #337.

[Beasmom]

Yes she did, but that still proves nothing.

i have a good friend who's been riding for many years, mainly dressage and prior to that eventing and H/J.

One day she hung a Boucher bit on her horse's bridle -- upside down.

You can ride for years sometimes and never see a Boucher bit except in catalogs.

[AnitaAnne]

Just in defense of AnitaAnne, it was I who asked what the bit is and I have a Baucher . Just didn't recognize it in the photo . I borrowed it off a friend a few months ago and had to ask if it was legal for dressage and I have been riding and competing for 30yrs. Just never used a Baucher. You learn something new everyday don't you?

Why thank you for your support!

I am not sure how the topic of this thread got around to attacking me, but I will play the game very briefly if it will make y'all happy!

I am a simple person and like to keep my life simplified. I have very few items of tack...

Wintec PRO Dressage saddle (for shows & everyday)
Wintec 2000 A/P saddle (for trails)
Snaffle bridle, plain noseband (no flash or whatever)
thickest 6" double-jointed snaffle I could buy (Springer nickel free model)
Dressage whip
leg wraps, polo & support wraps
lungline for when I go places I can't free lunge.

Thats it! i've never felt the need for anything else! So I am no expert when it comes to other stuff people use:D

I am always eager to learn!!

My personal goal was to ride a stallion of every breed, so far I have ridden the following stallions:

2yr old QH (RED)
6 yr old Thoroughbred off the track (RED)
10 yr old Saddlebred (RED)
4yr old Spotted Tennessee Walker (black & white)
6yr old Arabian (bay)
12yr old Racking horse (liver chestnut)

So you see i have a long way to go:D

i did mention that I am not a professional, just an amature owner that buys my horses cheap because they have a reputation to be dangerous. I love to retrain an outlaw...


So, back to Craig...
What is the reason that his students won't show the rest of us pictures or video? That is why I ask about the secrecy!

Since i don't live in Washington state, I can't exactly pop in to Craig's place...but I do have many relatives there...and I have been there a time or two:lol:

The trainer issue is interesting, because i have always called or e-mailed trainers first before coming, it is just politeness to do so. i have watched many different ones train many different horses because i like to learn:)

No one has ever refused to let me watch, they just ask that i stay out of the way.

[AnitaAnne]

Here is a link to the Steffen Peter's clinic here in Region 9.

Nothing but correct riding all weekend long.

http://www.lyndonrifedressage.com/2010_Steffen_Peters/steffen_2010.html#

Enjoy!

Thank you for the link!!

Oh how much I wish to ride with Steffen Peter...you are very fortunate indeed!!!

He is a joy to watch, so correct! Pure pleasure!!

But we digress again, yes? This thread is about Craig, sigh

[AnitaAnne]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157878

Thank you for this link! Very informative...only wish there was a picture.

i thought it looked like a bit that maybe elevates in the mouth to apply pressure to the poll, like some driving bits.

I've never seen one used b4 & just wondered the pros/cons since the question was raised.

[AnitaAnne]

Jeez, I just realized I forgot to mention the halter (plain blue nylon, no knotty things on it & a black leather one for shows) and a leadrope & a spare! Plain cotton, diamond quilted pads.

My horse however has:
a Zebra striped raincoat
black & white plaid flysheet with matching hood (covered ear style)
Emerald green 200 wt blanket
Rust colored 300 wt blanket
Christmas plaid 400 wt blanket
Burgandy wool show blanket
Cream colored cotton cooler
Fan for hot days
Palomino mare for a friend (my daughter's)

and we live in the southeast! Imagine what he would have if he lived up there in the cold!

[stryder]

So, back to Craig...
What is the reason that his students won't show the rest of us pictures or video? That is why I ask about the secrecy!



There are photos on Craig's web-site. Both older photos and some that are fairly recent. There are a couple of radio interviews, and some videos that one can find on youtube.

I don't understand why you seem to think there's secrecy ...

[AnitaAnne]

There are photos on Craig's web-site. Both older photos and some that are fairly recent. There are a couple of radio interviews, and some videos that one can find on youtube.

I don't understand why you seem to think there's secrecy ...

I saw the videos..I found three, one was mostly drawings of the footfalls of a horse moving laterally and then a very brief side ways movement of a horse, that to me did not look to be at the correct angle. Why would he show a horse incorrectly bent in an "instructional" clip? The others were similarly produced.

A radio interview is not visual, it is auditory. I can't see the way a horse moves on audio.

The pictures appear to be the very same ones I have seen for years on his website, and they do not show correct Dressage movement either, just like the one that was posted earlier.

I was told personally NOT to film anyone, no taping allowed!! That indicates secrecy.

So you claim to have pictures & video, but won't show it. Would you rather I said "all talk no action" to you instead of thinking there may be a possiblity that you have learnt something correctly from Craig? But are keeping it secret? I thought i was being kind...i do not like to be mean.

Can you show us any pictures of Craig & his students riding in the correct Dressage frame at all three gaits?

The link of the Steffen Peters Clinic pictures had every single horse & rider correct. I assume that was a two to three day clinic, standard length of time for clinics, and he had every horse & rider combination working correctly.

Compare that to a Craig clinic, is everyone able to have at least one picture of them riding at all three gaits in the correct frame? How about even one person?

[AnitaAnne]

a real trainer trains, doesn't care what he/she looks like, does what is needed to train the horse. i cant tell you how may times REALLY good trainers have gotten crazy comments from the peanut gallery simply because the peanut gallery has no clue what they are looking at.

think about it: if you are an uneducated rider how can you possibly have any opinion of how a trainer trains? yes, the GOAL is perfect harmony etc, but training can be *interesting* .... by which i don't mean abusive or forced - but the horse needs to LEARN and to do they they make MISTAKES... and the trainer will do what is needed to help them.

A clinic will not show real training. no way no how. or, if it does it wont get good response because stuff wont look perfect.

i think it is crap to attack a trainer that you know nothing about. period.

Almost all of the clinics I have attended, the instructor explains, when possible, what is the goal & why he/she is asking for a certain movement in a certain order, for instance haunches in at canter b4 change, helps the horse because he is already in the right bend. Eventually, this becomes the aid to change, by just a hint of the haunches in.

This is why the auditor comes, to watch and learn, take notes, pictures & video.

Hilda Gurney said, practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Thus, If you practice wrong, you will not get it right.

i see big improvements at clinics everytime I go. This is why they are often scheduled 1-2 weeks b4 a show, so one can be riding at their best:D

is it really so different out in the northwest? it sounds like y'all have a lot of problems.

By the training scale, the training of a horse should take 7 years to complete. My instructor has even bred many of her horses. The idea that these instructors are just putting the finishing touch on the horses they show is BS.

What clinics are these you go to???

Even Craig explained what he was doing, that is the chief complaint, too much explaining with horses just standing around, not enough riding.

he talks without showing anything. Then he plays with the bit in the horses mouth, while the rider sits there (going numb) waiting for something to happen!

[Grataan]

Question answered NM.

[mbm]

there is a difference between a rider learning to ride, and a trainer training a horse.

a horse can not be perfect without work and mistakes. it is baby steps to go from unbacked to working correctly. you dont just get on and start practicing perfect work. you work with what you have and step by step you mold the horse to be what you want. sometimes things dont look perfect and i think folks get hung up that training doesnt look like the finished product.

personally i think the only way to really know how a trainer trains is to watch them over a period of time.... months or years. see how they work with a variety of horses, students etc.

as for the SP clinic.... those pics were not of SP training. they were of clinic goers riding. we have no idea how correct their training is based on those pics and it isnt fair to judge a trainer based on some clinics pics - neither SP or anyone else for that matter.

dressage is hard enough.... thinking that the horse must be perfect all.the.time. and that all training is perfect just makes it harder.

[AnitaAnne]

IME, this comment should raise a huge red flag. When you send a horse off for training, the trainer is working for you. Additionally, it is the owner/rider's responsibility to be looking out for the horse's well being while in training. You should be able to schedule an appointment to see the horse being ridden and expect to see it being ridden (assuming that you are showing up at the appointment on time). Or if horses in training are ridden from 8am-11am, you should be able to walk in and see the horses being ridden.

If you are getting a litany of excuses as to why you can't see a horse in training being ridden- you should start questioning the training...from my experience, everytime the above scenario is happening- odds are the horse is not being ridden or something is being done that the owner wouldn't approve.

Or that the owners are a pain in the butt:lol:

[AnitaAnne]

there is a difference between a rider learning to ride, and a trainer training a horse.

a horse can not be perfect without work and mistakes. it is baby steps to go from unbacked to working correctly. you dont just get on and start practicing perfect work. you work with what you have and step by step you mold the horse to be what you want. sometimes things dont look perfect and i think folks get hung up that training doesnt look like the finished product.

personally i think the only way to really know how a trainer trains is to watch them over a period of time.... months or years. see how they work with a variety of horses, students etc.

as for the SP clinic.... those pics were not of SP training. they were of clinic goers riding. we have no idea how correct their training is based on those pics and it isnt fair to judge a trainer based on some clinics pics - neither SP or anyone else for that matter.

dressage is hard enough.... thinking that the horse must be perfect all.the.time. and that all training is perfect just makes it harder.

Um, the pictures of the riders at the Steffen Peters clinic are absolutely in the correct frame! That is what shows correct training!

This is the whole point behind Dressage shows; to have an impartial judge determine if what he/she is seeing the horse & rider team perform shows correct training. The judges are trained what to look for & must pass each level of judging b4 progressing to the next. An "L" judge for instance is not able to judge an FEI level test because they are not trained to that level. They are only trained thru 2nd level.

If you are not able to see if the rider & horse are in a correct frame in a picture, then you are not experienced enough to judge what is wrong or right.

Some of us ARE able to see if a picture of a horse & rider is in the correct frame! Compare these pictures from the SP clinic to some in Dressage Today or other FEI level websites, and maybe you will be able to understand...

Study pictures of Robert Dover, he is always correct! Jane Savoie, Hilda Gurney, etc. That will help to educate your eye...

[AnitaAnne]

One of the best ways to learn is to scribe for a judge:)

[spirithorse]

The thread is about Craig Stevens yet the Stephen Peters symposium was brought into the thread as a comparison. I do not know GS, have seen images that are posted but I will not condemn him for his effort to achieve what he seeks in horse and riders. At least to date I have seen no effort on his part to force the horses into unnecessary restraint and constraint found with OB/BTV schooling.

So I shall once again stand up for the misuse of the horse and the rules by quoting AntiaAnne and address the quote.........of course expecting the verbal attacks from those who choose to ignore the FEI Rules of Dressage and the schooling required to achieve the mandated descriptions.

Um, the pictures of the riders at the Steffen Peters clinic are absolutely in the correct frame! That is what shows correct training!

If you are not able to see if the rider & horse are in a correct frame in a picture, then you are not experienced enough to judge what is wrong or right.
...

It is about the horse being in correct frame.
Do you believe that the FEI rules that describe, that mandate, how the horse's head and neck shall appear; do not have to be followed?
------------------------------------
Article 417 c. The Collection
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical.
------------------------------------
When schooling a horse, the schooling is supposed to produce the required affect. OB/BTV does not apply the correct effects that allow the horse to obtain correct head/neck carriage.

There are hundreds of individuals who do not judge nor ride at GP level, that clearly see the violations presented in the arenas, which are predicated upon the inappropriate schooling.

Why do riders have to "restrain" the horse in this manner? There is not softness, suppleness, nor lightness, being demonstrated when the horse is placed OB/BTV. Might the restraint arise from a deep recessed fear of releasing a horse?

[AnitaAnne]

The thread is about Craig Stevens yet the Stephen Peters symposium was brought into the thread as a comparison. I do not know GS, have seen images that are posted but I will not condemn him for his effort to achieve what he seeks in horse and riders. At least to date I have seen no effort on his part to force the horses into unnecessary restraint and constraint found with OB/BTV schooling.

If you attend a clinic with him, you will see that he places the horse's head way up in the air then pulls the nose in towards the neck producing a nutcracker effect & explains how this move renders the horse unable to fight the rider...I checked your website b4 I answered, is this really something you would support?

In my area, no one practices OB/BTV...it was discussed & debated when first seen, but never used, at least around here. Craig does not use that method either, as far as I know.

Keep in mind that there have not been any scores of "10" given yet, have you considered the idea that the judges are not so much rewarding improper work as choosing that which is the overall closest to ideal of those shown?

[AnitaAnne]

It is about the horse being in correct frame.
Do you believe that the FEI rules that describe, that mandate, how the horse's head and neck shall appear; do not have to be followed?
------------------------------------
Article 417 c. The Collection
The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical.
------------------------------------

Thank you for posting this.

[spirithorse]

If you attend a clinic with him, you will see that he places the horse's head way up in the air then pulls the nose in towards the neck producing a nutcracker effect & explains how this move renders the horse unable to fight the rider...I checked your website b4 I answered, is this really something you would support?


I did not know he did such a thing and would not endorse such action.
And since there are no images on my site showing this, why would you ask?

[AnitaAnne]

I did not know he did such a thing and would not endorse such action.
And since there are no images on my site showing this, why would you ask?

Remember that I rode with Craig, so that is why I know. I thought you said you did not know him? I did not see any pictures of him on your site, rather I saw that you do not beleive in force.

I guessed that a person who does not believe in force (like yourself) would not like an instructor who forces a horses head into a position that renders the horse unable to fight the rein contact. Craig constantly was in my horse's mouth with the rein, he even states that the horse can be ridden just by the rein. he just stood there holding on to my reins & figiting with the bit. My horse got quite aggravated as I do not use a lot of rein contact, I work more off of my seat.

[spirithorse]

"Craig constantly was in my horse's mouth with the rein, he even states that the horse can be ridden just by the rein"

Egads !!!! I feel sorry for any horse is his hands..........

I was taught to vibrate the reins, soft instant hold then release........always release.

[Kyzteke]

Someone posted the Philippe Karl quote off Craig's web-site. Yes, it's true. Several of Craig's advanced students from the UK and Europe are completing or have completed Karl's program. How many other instructor's students are represented there to the extent that Craig is?



What are the names of these people? For instance, Robert Dover has taught many people who have had successful dressage careers, although he doesn't say he is teaching "his"method. He is just teaching...hmmm....dressage.

[Kyzteke]

For those of you with a sense of humor ¡V I saw this out on the web ¡V hope you enjoy itƒº

Top Ten Signs your Instructor can¡¦t teach Dressage
1) He says that all the Dressage movements can be performed with only one rein and subjects his students to fowl language

You mean, he makes off-color duck jokes?:yes:

[AnitaAnne]

You mean, he makes off-color duck jokes?:yes:

No it is the rubber chicken...somehow this is something he endorses...he sells the rubber chickens & i think says they should be carried in the pocket...look at earier posts, but he does sell rubber chickens & some kind of weird hat...Dressage police i think it says:lol:

[AnitaAnne]

"Craig constantly was in my horse's mouth with the rein, he even states that the horse can be ridden just by the rein"

Egads !!!! I feel sorry for any horse is his hands..........

I was taught to vibrate the reins, soft instant hold then release........always release.

That is correct!

[AnitaAnne]

The link to the rubber chicken...

http://www.classical-equitation.com/therubberchicken.htm

[Gallop~on~Grant]

Now i know what all my DQ friends are getting for Christmas! Thank you CS!

[spirithorse]

From his site:
Trained in the French classical school of equitation, Craig studied with such master horsemen as Joao Oliveira of Portugal, and French masters Michel Henriquet and Francoise Lemaire de Ruffieu

Can anyone verify this statement?

[stryder]

No it is the rubber chicken...somehow this is something he endorses...he sells the rubber chickens & i think says they should be carried in the pocket...look at earier posts, but he does sell rubber chickens & some kind of weird hat...Dressage police i think it says:lol:

Actually, the hat has Equitation Police on it.

Just another example, easily verified, in which AnitaAnne has mistaken or misinterpreted information.

The rubber chicken is a tiny reminder that people studying dressage shouldn't take themselves so seriously. Craig carries a small rubber chicken in his jeans pocket.

[stryder]

So you claim to have pictures & video, but won't show it. Would you rather I said "all talk no action" to you instead of thinking there may be a possiblity that you have learnt something correctly from Craig? But are keeping it secret? I thought i was being kind...i do not like to be mean.



Hmmmm.. Are you implying that I am a liar? And that I should prove to you that videos exist, and that I (learned) something correct from Craig?

I haven't chosen to show. That would be a situation in which I would perform for a trained and impartial judge, who would sign her name to a judging sheet.

So you think I need to "prove" my riding ability to you and others here, who are anonymous and mostly without credentials?

No. Or to use a Cothism: Why, bless your heart.

It's interesting to me how some people seem to believe that studying dressage requires competition. It's perfectly acceptable for people to study or enjoy many other art forms without performing or exhibiting - music, painting, poetry, dance, fine woodworking, etc. - but that dressage riders must show and be judged in order to be serious about it. I reject that reasoning.

Some of the more baffling threads I've read in this forum and other Coth forums: how to fix or at least mitigate a host of maladies (saddle galls, abscesses, hot nails, etc.) within a day or two so the poster can show. Others are about horses with ulcers which may be linked to a heavy show schedule. That is not horse-centric behavior.

I don't care if people show. I spent yesterday at a show with my friend, and was thrilled she won one class and placed third in another. She was happy and relaxed, her horse was a total rock star. Nice, nice pair.

I began studying dressage to become a better rider, for the intellectual aspects of it, and then as I delved further into it, to have a better relationship with my horse. I don't need anyone else to tell me if I'm succeeding at this. My mare and I are the only ones in this relationship. We both know the times we fall short, and the times we succeed.

[stryder]

he talks without showing anything. Then he plays with the bit in the horses mouth, while the rider sits there (going numb) waiting for something to happen!

What Craig is waiting for, is for the horse to relax its jaw and soften its poll. It's a signal that the horse's mind is engaged. He does not proceed until that happens. It starts from the ground. He does explain this in great detail. Did you miss that part?

[stryder]

If you attend a clinic with him, you will see that he places the horse's head way up in the air then pulls the nose in towards the neck producing a nutcracker effect & explains how this move renders the horse unable to fight the rider...I checked your website b4 I answered, is this really something you would support?



This is Craig's criticism against riding as some do it. It's what he rails against the most. Hyperflexion renders these magnificent animals helpless to defend themselves.

He may demonstrate it as something one should never do. But I cannot, under any circumstance, believe he would demonstrate it as an aspect of good riding.

[stryder]

"Craig constantly was in my horse's mouth with the rein, he even states that the horse can be ridden just by the rein"

Egads !!!! I feel sorry for any horse is his hands..........

I was taught to vibrate the reins, soft instant hold then release........always release.

yes, always release. People tend to hold too long. To Craig, even 3 seconds is an eternity.

And he doesn't say the horse can be ridden just by the rein. He says it should be ridden by the weight of the rein. Big difference.

It may take a long while to get there. But I think the journey is worth it.

[Timex]

i'm going to be the party pooper here. 4 years after the first post, i would be pretty willing to bet that nobody really cares anymore, except you 2, stryder and AnitaAnne. Let it die already, would you? you're never going to come to any sort of resolution, so stop punishing the rest of us, for pity's sake. :no:

[AnitaAnne]

i'm going to be the party pooper here. 4 years after the first post, i would be pretty willing to bet that nobody really cares anymore, except you 2, stryder and AnitaAnne. Let it die already, would you? you're never going to come to any sort of resolution, so stop punishing the rest of us, for pity's sake. :no:

Actually, it is boring me too:lol:

[AnitaAnne]

What Craig is waiting for, is for the horse to relax its jaw and soften its poll. It's a signal that the horse's mind is engaged. He does not proceed until that happens. It starts from the ground. He does explain this in great detail. Did you miss that part?

Sorry y'all, just one more thing...

Stryder, you are discribing one of the biggest mistakes riders make, riding from the front to the back! It is not correct to start with the bit:D

[stryder]

I think it is correct to start with the horse's mind. Once I have that, I can ask him anything.

[indyblue]

You're an animal communicator?

[Beasmom]

Timex, you don't have to open the thread, you know!

[SonnysMom]

Can't say I blame stryder for not posting videos of herself riding.

Posting pictures and videos on CoTH can be downright brutal. There is no way she could post the videos as "proof" without somebody feeling the need to find something to comment negatively about.

Heck you could post a video of somebody cleaning a stall and somebody would tell them she is doing it all wrong, somebody would tell her she is doing a perfect job and somebody would tell her having a horse in a stall ever is EVIL.

[Beasmom]

:lol: You got that right, SonnysMom!