Thomas - Are there combination classes in the UK?

[War Admiral]

Just curious - are there combination classes (ridden/driven) in the UK, and if so, are they more likely to be found at BDS shows or BHS shows or....???

[Thomas_1]

Never ever have come across any such thing anywhere in the UK.

And I've had a quick look since you posted the question to see if there were any at local club event levels and I can't see any in existence at all anywhere.

[War Admiral]

Really???!!!! Wowwwwww. :( For some reason I just automatically assumed the UK would own the copyright on truly fabulous Combination Hunters!! :(

Did such a thing ever exist over there at all? Or is it strictly a Yank thang? ;)

I'm curious b/c we have a long tradition of combination classes over here. Unfortunately it's dying out, but some of the big, old, traditional shows do still have them, and at the moment there is some talk of bringing them back to the ASB breed shows. The ADS does have rules in place providing for them and I think we had one at the last ADS pleasure show that took place here in GA.

In case you've never seen one, the way it works is that it's a 2-phase class: horses enter the ring and are driven first, then there's a break for the tack change and they come back for the ridden phase.

Hard to find a true Combination Hunter class any more, but that would include jumping a course during the ridden phase. :yes:

[Thomas_1]

NEVER come across them here at all. Not even as a "fun" class at a driving rally.

Mind you I've only been driving a little over 50 years ;)

I presume they therefore must be an "American thing" and I have seen them over there though.

Interestingly my mother showed Hackney horses in harness and she also entered ridden classes with her hackney BUT it was always separate classes. (Mum died 2 years ago aged 98 by way of giving the span that covered)

Similarly every driving horse I've ever owned has been ride and drive and when I was interested in showing and such, I've shown some of them both under saddle and in driving classes but again no such thing as combined classes.

[War Admiral]

You should make a move to get them going over there! :yes: They are LOADS of fun. I am hoping my next horse will end up as a nice sidesaddle hunter/driving prospect. That's my fantasy, at any rate! :D (...And if DMK happens to be lurking and reading this, wouldn't that be a nice retirement hobby for the Robmeister when he's done finding eight? :yes: )

[nj2]

Our local shows (Sussex Horse Show & Fair and sometimes DVHA Driving Show) usually have this class. Can have anywhere from 2 to about 5 entries typically. What is really fun for the judge is when you have hunt seat, western AND saddleseat ALL in the ring together after all driving with traditional carriage harness. Even for the saddleseat horses we usually dont see fine harness at these shows.

The Sussex show has USEF classes for Welsh and Morgans (not ASB) during the rest of the week. They used to have Friesiens and now have draft classes on the Driving Show day. So you can have anything from ponies to big horses ridden with any tack in the Ride/Drive class.

[Cartfall]

Combination classes are a hoot. At our little show recently we had ride and drive for our horse and larges ponies. Then for the little guys, vse or small pony, we had a hunter in hand course. It was well received.:yes:

[Thomas_1]

Neither do we have any such thing as "huntseat" and "saddleseat" and I wouldn't even know what they are

[Drive NJ]

Hunt seat is mostly what you see ridden in your shows. Hunting type saddles and suitable to jump (just an example)
http://www.doversaddlery.com/crosby-sofride-all-purpose-saddle/p/X1-15326/cn/91/


WA will know more of the details on this, but saddle seat is a larger and very flat english style saddle (also has larger flaps) http://www.nationalbridle.com/ProdDetail.asp?Catalog_ID=4859
but horses are only ridden on the flat (no fences) and generally are more high-stepping gaits.
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/
You see saddleseat for American Saddlebred, Morgan , Arab (and the offshoots of these) Also used for various versions of true "gaited" horses like Tennessee Walker

Each type of riding has a totally different look and usually way of going. Then throw western into the mix and you have a bit of everything for a judge to judge.

The ONLY saving grace is that usually they all show in the same type of carriage harness http://www.walnuthillfarm.com/gallery/index.html
and not the harness types and carriages seen in "breed" shows http://www.eclipsequarterhorses.com/

[Ashemont]

What is really fun for the judge is when you have hunt seat, western AND saddleseat ALL in the ring together after all driving with traditional carriage harness.

So could I do a class like this in a dressage saddle and dressage attire? I think Phoenix would be agreeable as long as he got to let everyone know he was first and foremost a fancy DRIVING horse :D

[Thomas_1]

I'm afraid I've got more confused now. I can see what we call a GP saddle and a show saddle. And we have both those types of saddle in the UK too.

But what has the saddle got to do with showing the horse ridden? Or do you mean that your "huntseat" classes need to demonstrate the ability of the horse to jump by actually doing some jumping?

The show saddle here would be used because you get a better profile of the shoulder view and the its arguable that the shoulder is "more free" - same as in a dressage saddle - for the judge to view movement when the horse is going round.

However a GP saddle is just what its called "general purpose". And here they are sometimes used in show classes too - after all its just a saddle and here its the horse's conformation and way of going that is being judged NOT the saddle!

Perhaps I could better understand if someone could help by explaining precisely what happens in each of those classes. What is being judged?

[nj2]

OK Thomas
The hunt seat (as exemplified by the GP saddle, is generic "english" and in teh combination classes is just expected to perform a walk, trot, canter both ways of the ring. Also halt and back. Jumping is only included if its Ride/Drive/Jump (or some such name) They ride in a basic balanced seat position, similar to the International jumping classes only on the flat.

Saddle seat have a completely different set of clothes for the rider. It can be a single bit or full mouth bridle. The saddle is positioned somewhat further back on the withers to free up the movement of the front end. The riders position in the saddle is different and further back than on a GP saddle. Legs "look" straighter with longer stirrups (I may be wrong about this in detail)
This is ridden ONLY on the flat and is expected to produce flashier gaits, even in saddle seat pleasure classes. The Hackney and ASB aer the flashiest of the high stepping horses but the Morgan is not far behind

There is usually a lot of bias between riders of each type, so putting them together in the same ring can be an immediate cause for some amusement and judges who are accustomed to the hunter type tack and way of going dont always know what to do with a saddle seat entry

[MySparrow]

There was a major Saddlebred show going on concurrent with the National Drive. It is not a world I've ever been involved in, so I had a good look round when this opportunity presented itself. It was an interesting study in contrasts. On our side of the parking lot were a vast assortment of turnouts, and people dressed for the weather, a steady bustle of relaxed but purposeful activity and lots of laughter -- and mud. On their side of the parking lot one saw at least one Hispanic groom for every stall, people in those stalls blowdrying their horses, young women in the bathrooms (which we shared) applying copious makeup, false horsetails hanging everywhere (I was told that for this kind of show the horses' tails are often broken and then set to a higher level, with the false tails attached to make up for the difference in height and to enhance the horse's natural tail), crystal chandeliers in tack stalls and crystal tie-backs on stall curtains. No mud anywhere.

We spent lunch watching a few classes one day in the nearby indoor arena. Saddlebreds are stunningly beautiful horses and their natural movement is clean and active. Under saddle the goal seems to be to make them look crazy. The horses we watched carried their heads very high -- in the children's classes often straining against martingales attached directly to the (leverage) bits -- and their eyes bulged. The children wore fixed smiles that faded when the judge looked away and reappeared when the judge looked toward them. The adult women just smiled continually. The adult men seemed to be doing their imitations of Simon Legree. The riders sat well back on the flat saddle in what I would call an exaggerated chair seat, which didn't look comfortable, but which is intended, I was told, to show off the high-stepping front action of the horse. Many of the horses seemed on the verge of losing control of their front legs, or else they were taking a couple of steps in the air, or something. Their front feet were grown quite long. I'm not sure if they wear weighted shoes or not. They showed to music played by an organist in the centre of the arena, in a flower-bedecked judging circle.

These horses were also driven to spidery little show buggies polished to a high gleam.

This is an outsider's perspective, and I freely confess that I am ignorant of the finer nuances of this kind of showing. I'll be interested to read what is posted by people who actually know and understand Saddlebred classes!

[Ashemont]

There was a major Saddlebred show going on concurrent with the National Drive. <snip> It was an interesting study in contrasts. On our side of the parking lot were a vast assortment of turnouts, and people dressed for the weather, a steady bustle of relaxed but purposeful activity and lots of laughter -- and mud. On their side of the parking lot one saw at least one Hispanic groom for every stall, people in those stalls blowdrying their horses, young women in the bathrooms (which we shared) applying copious makeup, false horsetails hanging everywhere (I was told that for this kind of show the horses' tails are often broken and then set to a higher level, with the false tails attached to make up for the difference in height and to enhance the horse's natural tail), crystal chandeliers in tack stalls and crystal tie-backs on stall curtains. No mud anywhere.

Ah, but who was having more FUN??? :winkgrin: I've never done Saddlebreds and have never wanted to. Well at one time I confess I entertained the idea because I thought it would be neat to show against Captain Kirk! For me horses are my passion and it needs to be fun for both of us. Not the image I get when I watch Saddlebreds. However I think I've tried just about everything else ;)

[bludejavu]

On their side of the parking lot one saw at least one Hispanic groom for every stall, people in those stalls blowdrying their horses, young women in the bathrooms (which we shared) applying copious makeup, false horsetails hanging everywhere (I was told that for this kind of show the horses' tails are often broken and then set to a higher level, with the false tails attached to make up for the difference in height and to enhance the horse's natural tail),

REPLY: I've been riding saddle seat for over 30 years now here in the States and you are correct here except for one detail. The tails are not "broken". A ligament is nicked by a tiny incision thru the skin which allows the tail to be carried higher. A tail set keeps the ligament limber and stretched so that this can happen. Tail sets are generally only worn a week or so before a show to limber the tail carriage and then are removed when they return home. However, a newly nicked tail will be put in a tail set at home to insure proper regrowth. This subject is very controversial with some people but is actually a very simple procedure.

We spent lunch watching a few classes one day in the nearby indoor arena. Saddlebreds are stunningly beautiful horses and their natural movement is clean and active. Under saddle the goal seems to be to make them look crazy.

REPLY - to the novice spectator, it would appear that we like them crazy but in fact, they are trained to appear alive and animated. The Saddlebred performance horse is taught from a very early age to come alive when shown but to be docile and very manageable whether under saddle or simply being led.

The horses we watched carried their heads very high -- in the children's classes often straining against martingales attached directly to the (leverage) bits -- and their eyes bulged.

REPLY: Saddlebreds are in fact bred to have larger eyes than many breeds. The bulge is there naturally and will appear even when they are at rest if they raise their upper eye lids. Because it signals fear or mistrust in other breeds, it is often misinterpreted within the Saddlebreds. But just as certain small dog breeds have bulging eyes, so do Saddlebreds.

The children wore fixed smiles that faded when the judge looked away and reappeared when the judge looked toward them. The adult women just smiled continually. The adult men seemed to be doing their imitations of Simon Legree. The riders sat well back on the flat saddle in what I would call an exaggerated chair seat, which didn't look comfortable, but which is intended, I was told, to show off the high-stepping front action of the horse. Many of the horses seemed on the verge of losing control of their front legs, or else they were taking a couple of steps in the air, or something. Their front feet were grown quite long. I'm not sure if they wear weighted shoes or not. They showed to music played by an organist in the centre of the arena, in a flower-bedecked judging circle.

REPLY: The only time the actual riding is judged when riding Saddle Seat is in an equitation class. As for children, it all depends on who is teaching them as to whether the particular instructor is more concerned with riding skills or horse communication skills. Some instructors teach both good riding form and good communication with the horse. Others teach good communication only. Adults don't always have healthy posture on a horse due to poor posture. But their riding skills don't always suffer due to poor posture - it is possible to not look beautiful on a horse and still have good communication.

These horses were also driven to spidery little show buggies polished to a high gleam.

REPLY - the two wheeled carts are considered pleasure carts for pleasure type horses and ponies. Four wheeled carts are for a dressier class called Fine Harness. All harness is very light and the carts themselves don't weigh a lot in order to allow the horses to still maintain their animation instead of needing to throw their weight and neck into pulling a heavy cart.

This is an outsider's perspective, and I freely confess that I am ignorant of the finer nuances of this kind of showing. I'll be interested to read what is posted by people who actually know and understand Saddlebred classes!

REPLY - I currently own, breed, train and show my horses and have been doing so for most of my life. It is a joy to those of us who love Saddlebreds to see our horses enjoy what they are doing. Like any breed, there are those who try shortcut tactics, but a properly trained Saddlebred show horse (not to be confused with the heavily shod Tennessee Walking Horses) is one who enjoys being in the limelight and shows it.

[War Admiral]

Oh Jaysus God, here we go.... :lol: Paging Bludejavu to this thread for assistance... :D

I'll try to give you the basics Thomas... Nutshell version, we have THREE separate and distinct riding styles in the USA which (for the most part) you don't have in the UK:

"Hunt seat" riding here is the style of riding you're accustomed to, which evolved of course from fox hunting.

"Western" riding is what the cowboys do in the movies. They have a saddle with a horn which is used to snub the rope to when roping a calf or whatever.

"Saddle seat" riding is a style of riding that really evolved during the era of the great plantations here in the South. Plantation owners wanted a flashy, elegant, up-headed horse with a comfortable gait that still had the stamina to carry the owner on his duties around the plantation all day and could carry the family to church on Sunday and look very VERY swellegant! Breeding for those criteria, we arrived at our own native American breeds such as the American Saddlebred (see DNJ's link), the Tennessee Walking Horse, and other similar cousins such as the Missouri Fox Trotter. Most of these breeds have "extra" gaits that other breeds don't, such as the "slow gait" and rack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIN-6oyJZ4M) in the 5-gaited Saddlebred, the running walk in the Walking Horse, and so on.

"Saddle seat" riding evolved as a riding style over here for similar reasons. The attire is different b/c it's too darn HOT here to ride around all day in a tweed hacking jacket and tall boots - hence the saddle suit (http://www.velocity.net/~prosper/). The riding style itself evolved as the Saddlebred horse became naturally more up-headed and higher stepping. (NB - there is a precedent for this style of riding in the UK, back in the days when y'all had a breed of horse called a "Galloway" or "Ambler" - that breed is now extinct, but enough of them came over here that they became some of the foundation stock for our Saddlebreds, Walking Horses and Standardbreds.)

Nowadays these 3 styles of riding are considered separate and distinct disciplines and are judged according to completely different sets of rules. Which is where today's discipline-specific judges have a tough time. Those of us who are old-timers or were trained by old-timers can handle it, the younger people - no.

The same holds true in driving. Nowadays, Saddlebred breed shows have a different styles of driving that has evolved into a "show ring only" discipline and is judged under completely different rules than the ADS/BDS style of driving you are accustomed to.

Fine Harness (http://www.horsephotographer.com/HorseSaddlebred/Photograph1/photograph.html) horses are put to a lightweight 4-wheeled (modified) viceroy. They're the strutting peacocks of the show ring. I'll confess that a really great one such as Sir William Robert can actually make me teary-eyed! They're faster and flashier than anything you have over there. Closest relative in Europe would be the Dutch Tuigpaard (http://www.kwpn.nl/cms/index.jsp?menuId=437) which is trained and shown in similar fashion.

I'll be honest - I'm a huge adherent and fan of saddle seat riding and driving, specifically of the American Saddlebred, and am in the minority on this forum b/c I do know, understand, loff and compete the breed whenever I'm lucky enough to own or have access to one. They are GREAT horses and, as we can see right here on this forum, are much misunderstood. ;)

[Cartfall]

DNJ I took a look at picture of the Quarterhorse being driven--can we say western pleasure horse being driven? And what happened to the lady's gloves?:lol:

Thomas, if you were to attend the schooling open pleasure show weekends at my local saddle club you would be absolutely amazed at what is there.

Since the local most preferred breeds in my area seem to be Quarterhorse or Paint (a pinto quarterhorse/t-bred mix) I have my asbestos flame suit on--:lol:, you will see horses ridden on Saturday in western saddles doing their best to look like a western pleasure horse. Slow jogs, loose rein, silver encrusted western saddles, lots of glitter on cowboy hats, long fringed chaps, etc The next day these same horses appear in the "english" pleasure show. So now these same horses are going around the arena in what you essentially are calling a GP saddle, some hunt saddles which are a little flatter than the GP seat, no knee tolls generally. The riders are now decked out in helmets, hunt jackets, breeches and tall boot.

What we get are hunter type horses in western tack and peanut pushers in english tack. Then you have a few park types which is somewhat like what the Saddlebred discussion was, with a few Arabians thrown in.
Saddle seat, is an even flatter saddle based on the old plantation or beuna vista saddles that were developed for the gaited horses of the 19th century.
The gaited horses of today in the show ring would not get very far going down the road. I talked to a TWH trainer about his "big lick" horse and how far he road it daily. Once around the 1/4 track and back it went into its stall! How sad. But I digress

Breed shows are very posh political type things. No fun at all. Been there done that in the Arabian world.

[War Admiral]

The gaited horses of today in the show ring would not get very far going down the road.

Ummmm.... The Amish might beg to disagree. They love the ASBs b/c 98% of them are trained to drive before they are trained to ride, and many ASBs end up (for better or worse) in the hands of the Amish and prove to be very worthy road horses indeed for many years.

[bludejavu]

Saddle seat, is an even flatter saddle based on the old plantation or beuna vista saddles that were developed for the gaited horses of the 19th century.
The gaited horses of today in the show ring would not get very far going down the road. I talked to a TWH trainer about his "big lick" horse and how far he road it daily. Once around the 1/4 track and back it went into its stall! How sad. But I digress

Breed shows are very posh political type things. No fun at all. Been there done that in the Arabian world.

Please don't confuse the Big Lick TWH with other gaited breeds and types - they are literally worlds apart. I thought you might like to see a video of a really cool speed racker going down the side of the road. It's a little lengthy but well worth the watch.

http://www.spottedhaven.com/diggerstud.html

[War Admiral]

Please don't confuse the Big Lick TWH with other gaited breeds and types - they are literally worlds apart. I thought you might like to see a video of a really cool speed racker going down the side of the road. It's a little lengthy but well worth the watch.

http://www.spottedhaven.com/diggerstud.html

Most definitely agree re the whole Big Lick thang - those people are a law unto themselves...

That's a COOL vid Susan, never seen it, thanks for the post!

And to keep this Driving related - and for the Capt. Kirk fans :D - here's a nice vid of a Shatner-bred ASB stallion, Belle Reve's Voodoo Magic, taking a victory pass after a Fine Harness class right here in GA:

http://www.asha.net/members/stallion.php/093934S

[Aptor Hours]

He he I apply lots of makeup when I show my ASB. My husband calls it my "Saddlebred cheeks".

[War Admiral]

He he I apply lots of makeup when I show my ASB. My husband calls it my "Saddlebred cheeks".

Well, but when you think about it, there's a practical reason for the makeup, too: night classes!!! I bet you and my favorite ASB look splendiforous under the lights!! :yes:

[MySparrow]

Near me is a riding club called The Outlaws which is composed entirely of gaited horse owners. Most of these are ASBs, with a few TWs thrown in. I've been to a few of their shows, and these, I suspect, are more of the "real" ASBs and walkers. They can MOVE. No long feet or funny shoes. No "nicked" tails. No bugged eyes. Just beautiful big action, very fast, with riders dressed beautifully but in no particular style. Everybody looks happy, engaged, eager, top-of-the-milk, but without the slightly insane look of the show ring. Love watching the Outlaws and their horses.

[EasterEgg]

I'm afraid I've got more confused now. I can see what we call a GP saddle and a show saddle. And we have both those types of saddle in the UK too.



Look closer Thomas... the saddleseat saddle
www.nationalbridle.com/ProdDetail.asp?Catalog_ID=4859 (http://www.nationalbridle.com/ProdDetail.asp?Catalog_ID=4859) is actually very different to an english show saddle http://www.saddlery-british.com/show_saddle.htm

Interestingly though the saddle suit http://www.saddlery-british.com/show_saddle.htm as described by War Admiral is similar to what gentlemen can wear here in Show Hack classes: http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2005/w225_2522.jpg

I would imagine the provence is the same - attractive horses able to give a smooth, mannerly ride.

[War Admiral]

Interestingly though the saddle suit http://www.saddlery-british.com/show_saddle.htm as described by War Admiral is similar to what gentlemen can wear here in Show Hack classes: http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2005/w225_2522.jpg

I would imagine the provence is the same - attractive horses able to give a smooth, mannerly ride.

Easter Egg, that is fascinating! Thanks so much for that pic - I had no idea there was any discipline in the UK where people wear this sort of attire. I learn something new about horses every day of my life!! :yes:

And yes, you're pretty much right. If I lived in the UK, showing hacks and driving would probably be my main areas of interest.

[Cartfall]

Let me start off with what a great video of Digger. Awesome horse. He is truly talented. He is what the original Walking horse was bred to be.

Before you take my head off at the shoulder level,

I am NOT lumping or confusing all gaited horses into a single class here
Having had TWH as trail horses I fully appreciated the naturally gaited horse of any breed. I have ridden Pasos, Icelandic, Mo Foxtrotters and many walkers. I am NOT comparing those gaited horses to the Big Lick horse.
I rode my first 2 years of distance on a small TWH that could go all day long in his running walk.

My statement was refering to the Big Lick Horse I was talkiing about in my experience.

My observation was made about one aspect of the TWH world--the Big Lick horse that is shod up on platforms, kept in the stall 23 hours a day, with a harness that keeps their broken tail up in a wad. Yes this is a minor part of the TWH world. and I am NOT trying to start any conversation about abuse of TWH here. :no:

Here are a handful of noodles, start flaying me if you will:lol:

War Admiral, as far as ASB--I know zip about them other than a nickname an old Standardbred trainer told me. I really never considered them as a gaited horse simply because I have no experience around them. so we can take them out of my conversation .

BDJV--Perhaps I should have said Big Lick instead of gaited but I figured the reference was clear.

[goodhors]

Please don't confuse the Big Lick TWH with other gaited breeds and types - they are literally worlds apart. I thought you might like to see a video of a really cool speed racker going down the side of the road. It's a little lengthy but well worth the watch.

http://www.spottedhaven.com/diggerstud.html

Thank you very much for the video link. What a fun video to watch! Also WA for the racking Saddlebred link. Again, very nice to watch, easy to see the footfall pattern.

I know some Trail riders who do the 'flying along' speed rack demonstrated beside the truck. This rack is done while pretending it is just a normal gait! They go side-by-side, passing snacks back and forth like in front of the TV set watching a big game. You hardly have time to glimpse them before they are out of sight. Usually two little old wizened up guys, just grinning until their faces must hurt!! And no bounce at all!

As a note, a Racking horse is supposed to be the fastest of equines. Even faster than a TB on the track. I remember being very surprised to find that out! It was a measurement of ground covered, not a head to head race if I am correct. Racking horse covered the measured distance faster than the galloping horse could, when comparing times. I do believe it was a speed Racker setting the record, rather than the Saddlebred. They both do a Rack, but footfall is slightly different according to the Farriers I know.

[Thomas_1]

as described by War Admiral is similar to what gentlemen can wear here in Show Hack classes: http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2005/w225_2522.jpg

.

What class and which show is that from? It looks to me like evening dress and just an everyday dress top hat rather than a traditional hunting top hat which of course I am familiar with.

[EasterEgg]

What class and which show is that from? It looks to me like evening dress and just an everyday dress top hat rather than a traditional hunting top hat which of course I am familiar with.

The British Show Hack, Cob & Riding Horse Association National Show 2005.

For final judging at the larger shows (National Champs, RIHS, HOYS etc.) gentlemen either wear:
http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2005/w225_2511.jpg
or
http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2005/w224_2407.jpg

Standard attire for daytime judging is of course:
http://www.showhackandcob.org.uk/photo/albums/show2006/IMG_6002.jpg

Here are a few more examples from this year's HOYS:
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=3825&ppp=0&pcp=1&ppwd=sb7886pb&Action=VF&id=2511092
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=3825&ppp=0&pcp=1&ppwd=sb7886pb&Action=VF&id=2510935
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=3825&ppp=0&pcp=1&ppwd=sb7886pb&Action=VF&id=2510909
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=3825&ppp=0&pcp=1&ppwd=sb7886pb&Action=VF&id=2511017
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=3825&ppp=0&pcp=1&ppwd=sb7886pb&Action=VF&id=2511218

As I said it's all pretty standard really so I'm surprised that you seem unfamiliar with it :confused:

[867-5309]

.

, with a harness that keeps their broken tail up in a wad. [/COLOR]. :no:



A little late here, just wanted to clarify and correct. Permit me a small rant please. TWH's and ASB's that wear a tailset DO NOT HAVE THEIR TAILS BROKEN! No no no no no you have no idea how crazy this makes me when people say this, it is NOT true.

A horse in a "set" has never have had bones broken, the tailbone is NOT altered and their tails are NOT up in a wad.

Rant over. Thank you.

[Ashemont]

TWH's and ASB's that wear a tailset DO NOT HAVE THEIR TAILS BROKEN!

No broken bones but from what I understand they have the nerves cut on each side of the tail THEN the tail is put in a tailset. However cutting the nerves renders the tail ineffective for things like swatting flies. Still nothing that should be done to a horse IMO.

[867-5309]

from what I understand they have the nerves cut on each side of the tail THEN the tail is put in a tailset. However cutting the nerves renders the tail ineffective for things like swatting flies.


Then your understanding is wrong. 100% wrong. The tail is fully functional, operational, has full feeling, and the horses swat flies perfectly as the day they were born.

Please, I do not want to start a sniping war, just correcting an innacuracy of a couple of statements made.

[Ashemont]

So you are saying they do NOT cut the nerves anymore? It's been years since I've known anyone involved with showing these horses but the ones I knew (top trainers who went to places like Harrisburg) said they cut the nerves and I observed that the horses could not move their tails. We actually had a couple of retired ones at our barn in NJ and they, too, could not use their tails. It was very sad.

If this practice has been stopped then that is good news. But then it begs the question of HOW they do it? How do the tailsets actually work?

FWIW for many years the QH pleasure people were nicking the tail nerves to get that nice quiet look in the ring.

[867-5309]

I will PT you, I cannot stand the thought of a flame war. I do commend you for getting the facts and wanting to know.

I have never heard of a horse with a tail rendered useless. Ever. That would be wrong.

[Cartfall]

This thread has taken on a mind of its own. The one horse I observed about 12 years ago was a TWH, and the trainer was a nasty guy. When I asked him about the harness and the tail rig, he told me in no uncertain terms that the tail is broken and then they have to have that rig to form it. The tail was all bound up in vet wrap. That is when I had to leave the barn, it literally made me sick to my stomach

Now having said that, I know that many breeds have bad trainers. Coming from TWH to Arabians I have seen the good and bad of both. I know all about gingering at ARabian shows to get that extra 1/2 inch of tail rise. Then there is the BIG show barn near here with all the horses tied in the stalls up really short to develop that high head set.

I am not trying to steal WA thread, but the conversation did come up.
If tails are no longer broken, that is a wonderful thing.

[ASB Stars]

I have owned ASBs since the early 70's. I know several trainers, and a Vet, who cut tails- notice I said "cut"- not "break" or any other description. I have never seen or heard of any tail being broken. The practice may be illegal in some states (and is) and you may not agree with it (I am NOT a proponent) but the tail is still quite useable, and the nerves and bones are intact.

More than anything, the practice allows the tail to be set up high, in the fashion that the Saddle Seat folks like.

I've seen tails that were just a mess from being poorly cut, or more probably, poorly cared for after being cut, and that is one nasty nightmare. Then, all breeds that are doing the fashion thing have their issues; the quarterhorses were accused of nerving, or numbing, the tails, the Morgans are cutting tails now, etc.

I like mine natural!

[War Admiral]

Once again - they never DID break tails. And the horses CAN still swat flies. 867-5309 speaks the truth. Given that she and I have both been involved w/ ASBs our entire lives, ONE of us, at least, would have run into an ASB with no ability to use its tail, if that were anything other than a rumor - but I never have either...

I think you are confusing us with the Quarter Horse people, some (not all) of whom DO completely sever the nerves in the horse's tail so that the horse cannot switch its tail in the show ring - a huge no-no in that breed show ring. I'm not sure if the AQHA has now made that illegal or not, but it was a widespread practice at one time.

[Thomas_1]

And another technique that was employed was to inject with toxic chemical which basically destroyed the nerves in the tail.

All illegal practices in the UK and I understand pretty much frowned upon over there now but sad to hear that the practice of "cutting" tails is still on going.

[867-5309]

Thank you WA and Stars.

In the hopes of getting this back ON topic, we've done combination classes (and won them all) the last one we did you had to change tack from driving to under saddle in center ring with a time limit of like 3 minutes. Our American Saddlebred would have won on manners alone just in the tack change portion as his fellow non American Saddlebreds fussed and moved around.

[War Admiral]

Thank you WA and Stars.

In the hopes of getting this back ON topic, we've done combination classes (and won them all) the last one we did you had to change tack from driving to under saddle in center ring with a time limit of like 3 minutes. Our American Saddlebred would have won on manners alone just in the tack change portion as his fellow non American Saddlebreds fussed and moved around.

You're welcome. And yes, that's how I remember the Combination Classes being done in the bad old days. (And BTW they were always called Combination Classes - NOT "Ride and Drive", which is a seeeeeerious vulgarism, IMO! :D )

[Ashemont]

Just so you all know that I have nothing against ASB I thought I'd mention that our stallion Welt Marke is approved for crossing with them by the TASHR http://www.americanasporthorse.com/. They are lovely horses and actually the original American Warmblood. I'm just opposed to some of the things that have been done to them. I'm glad a lot of them are now illegal.

Three minutes for a tack change actually seems like plenty of time to me. I used to do team-penning with a 3 minute time limit and I can remember thinking that was actually way more time than anyone should need ;) How many assistants are you allowed to have and are these classes regularly offered in ASB shows?

[War Admiral]

Three minutes for a tack change actually seems like plenty of time to me. I used to do team-penning with a 3 minute time limit and I can remember thinking that was actually way more time than anyone should need ;) How many assistants are you allowed to have and are these classes regularly offered in ASB shows?

They're not offered very *often* at ASB shows any more, unfortunately - in fact I don't think USEF even has rules for them any more, though they did as late as the 60s and maybe even the 70s - but there has been some discussion here and there about bringing them back. Seems to have died off again now though, more's the pity. :( 3 mins is plenty for the tack change when you don't have breeching and just have a little lightweight bike. ISTR being allowed two attendants??? One to head the horse and one to assist the driver?? And you had to remove the vehicle from the ring under human power, obviously.

The ADS shows run theirs a bit differently, it's 2 separate classes, Section A and B usually, so the 3 min. tack change doesn't come into play. They give people plenty of time by sticking another class in between - which makes a lot more sense when you consider the size of the vehicles and increased complexity of the harness.

[Drive NJ]

ADS doesn't mandate separate classes. Up here its typically done all in one with a rapid (we hope) tack change in the ring and then the grooms dragging the vehicles out. The 3 minute thing sounds like a good idea as occasionally you get a dawdler.

[War Admiral]

ADS doesn't mandate separate classes. Up here its typically done all in one with a rapid (we hope) tack change in the ring and then the grooms dragging the vehicles out. The 3 minute thing sounds like a good idea as occasionally you get a dawdler.

Oh really? Didn't know that; thanks for info. Interesting to note it's done differently up there... Down here at the ADS shows it's always a split class.

For the ASB shows the 3-minute rule *used* to be in the AHSA rule book.