Thank you Susie Schoellkopf for saying it outloud!

[Jumphigh83]

FINALLY someone who writes what I have been saying for years on this forum! I am so excited to see that I am not the only one who can NOT find good workers! White/black/latino/male/female it doesnt matter! These people do NOT know how to work nor do they care! How much do I get paid and what days off?? The kids of today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay!

If you are out there you hard workers PLEASE step forward! There are A LOT of opportunities out there IF you want to put in your time.

[county]

Around here I've found just the opposite, the young people work their butts off if there paid and treated properly. Only ones I see here that don't shouldn't for how there treated.

[Penthilisea]

Are you kidding? I would love to have an equestrian job that wasn't slave labor in disguise! I am a super hard worker, very experienced and reliable, independant etc. I come up early, go above and beyond- for what?
Everyplace around here thinks they can pay you minimum wage or less, have you start at 5 am AND muck stalls 7 days a week. Why would I even bother? I have a life and a mortgage, I need a job that pays me what my experience is worth. Most horse jobs don't do that.

[Jumphigh83]

perfect examples..................(see above)

[county]

Perfect examples of what?

BTW why would you even hire someone that doesn't know which end of a horse eats hay? Would you hire someone to fix your car if they had no idea how to do so?

[elektra949]

from someone who has worked "horsie" jobs all her life... I find that this is true- a few bad apples (th eone's who don't knwo which end eats the hay) ruin it for everyone.... I am a good hard worker also- but, I agree with the fact I want to be paid for my experience. I would be perfectly willing to stay and walk horses, wrap, unwrap, blanket, etc- I can pick out illnesses and lameness, know when to separate, notice when horses aren't eating well, etc. I clean stalls like I was going to sleep there, scrub water buckets, fix fences, re-mat and bed stalls, everything.... I will come early, stay late, water arenas, mow lawns, school horses, paint jumps, anything..... yet people still want to pay me 2.00 a stall per day and that's it. I have a mortgage and a life, and a horse to support- who the hell can live off that? I agree it is hard to find good help- but it's even harder when people don't want to pay for their good help.

[Jsalem]

Yup, jumphigh, I'm with you. I loved that piece.

How about $400 a week, free rent, free utilities, one week's paid vacation for a 6 day a week job? Or $10 an hour for a groom's job. You'd be surprised how hard it is to fill those jobs.

Like she said, they all want my job- and I've been doing this professionally for 20 years! And I worked for minimum wage. And I've mucked stalls and pulled manes and cleaned sheaths and taught the boring up-downs. I paid my dues!

The reality is that in life, there are Chiefs and there are Indians. We are raising our young people to think that they are all Chiefs. Their time is too valuable to mow lawns or wait tables or muck stalls. I see a lot of young people that drive cars that are more expensive than mine. They don't pay for the car, or the gas, or the insurance. They can't have an afterschool or weekend job because they are too busy pursuing their competitive riding career and their SAT prep courses. I don't blame the young people; I blame their parents. These kids haven't worked a day in their lives for anything!

Someone asked me recently what my secret was, because I must say that I have raised a great kid- she's self motivated, hard working, good student, great rider. (She's on the way home as we speak to participate in the Breast Cancer 3 day walk) You know what the answer is? I didn't raise her like a rich kid. I raised her like a poor kid. She knows how to work. And she likes to do for herself.

Look, and you guys that blast the employers for not wanting to pay: There are economics at play here. I'd love to pay my workers generously and give them bonuses and perks. But on the other end, which boarders are willing to pay $100 more per month to fund that? You cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. And that's what you people would understand if you had my experience!

Off my soap box now....

[poltroon]

FINALLY someone who writes what I have been saying for years on this forum! I am so excited to see that I am not the only one who can NOT find good workers! White/black/latino/male/female it doesnt matter! These people do NOT know how to work nor do they care! How much do I get paid and what days off?? The kids of today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay!

If you are out there you hard workers PLEASE step forward! There are A LOT of opportunities out there IF you want to put in your time.

There are horselovers bursting at the seams to have a job around horses that pays enough to cover health insurance, a car, a decent place to live, food and basics, opportunities to ride, something for retirement, and two days off a week.

[Jsalem]

Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!

[mango1612]

I think that sometimes people think others should be begging for these 'slave labor' jobs and grateful to have them... but I'm with the ones who think workers should be paid fairly for time. Someone offered me a job that would require me to spend a long time working for free, (it was referred to as 'experience') before getting paid. I probably would've been willing to take the job if I'd been compensated (even if the pay wasn't much) for the beginning work/training. But right now, not sure if I'm willing to put that much time in without getting anything (money-wise) in return.
I don't necessarily consider myself slack or lazy, I work hard and wasn't spoiled with fancy horses all the time. We had a farm w/boarders and my sister and I were responsible for cleaning stalls, feeding, turnout, etc, every evening.

[LostFarmer]

Construction labor here make 15 to 35 $/hr. That is entry labor with no experience to lead ma on the crew + overtime, and insurance. WHY do I want to muck stalls at 10? You want good help pay higher than the next guy and demand better work. LF

[county]

So just because someone made the choice to " put in their time " for next to nothing the rest of the world should do the same? I hardly think so.

[BoysNightOut]

As somebody who has worked several horse jobs, I think employers need to realize that life is expensive for everybody....both them, and their workers! I understand farm owners find it hard to make ends meet or pay their workers generously.....but the same goes for employees who have rent, bilsl, etc. I love working in barns, I always work my hardest. I do it because I love horses. Yet I still have bills to pay.....just because I choose to work at a farm doesn't mean my car's gasoline, my cell phone bill, etc all costs me less than the person who has a 9-5 office job.

I agree that there are people out there who are not good workers, but you will find that in all jobs. Before you just write everybody off as poor workers, also take a look at yourself.....are you providing decent pay so your worker can actually pay the bills? Are you giving them proper training in how you want chores done? Nothing crashes a worker's motivation to do their job well when they get backed up in debt because they are paid barely min. wage and they work 7 days a week doing physical labor.

I don't see how an employee wanting decent pay and some time off means we are all spoiled and soft.....what the hell. I have had a job since I was 16. Is it so wrong for me to want a day to myself, or enough $$ in the bank to pay my bills each month? Give me a break.

I will do just about anything. Currently, I work at a stable where I feed, t/o, muck stalls, the works, etc....and guess what, I love it! I work hard! But my employer treats me with respect, pays me a good wage, and gives me 2 days off to rest so I don't burnout like so many do.

It's a 2 way street.....so while there are obviously those out there who are poor workers, there are also poor employers.

Maybe it's because the few bad apples seem to ruin it for the rest of us, but it seriously pisses me off to hear people complain that there's "no good help out there".

If you can't find good enough help, do it yourself!

(And this little rant isn't aimed at any one person, so please don't think I'm picking one person out....that's to the equine industry as a whole.)

[poltroon]

Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!

:)

In other words, you would like strangers to subsidize your horse habit by working for wages that pay less than the cost to produce that labor. And you're wondering why that makes them grumpy and unreliable. :)

[Kementari]

I *could* work in a barn for $8 an hour, no health insurance, little or no paid vacation, no sick leave, pretty much no benefits whatsoever...

Or I could work in another not exactly top end job for $15 an hour with yearly COLA increases, excellent insurance, two weeks paid vacation, a week of sick leave, and many other benefits - and actually have enough money to keep two horses, eat, compete once in awhile, have a car, and possibly even go to the doctor if one of those 1200 lb animals steps on my foot and I feel it go "crunch."

It's really easy to sit up there with your own farm and business and think that people should just be willing to "work harder" for you. But it's a hell of a lot more difficult to feel all peaches and cream about a job that pays SIGNIFICANTLY less than the cost of living when you are trying to decide between paying your student loan or your car payment this month. :no:

[Jsalem]

Noooo, not my horse habit. I keep my personal horses at home. I fed and mucked BEFORE I left for the training barn this morning. And I fed at 8:00 tonight after I finished work. I do my own grunt work for my horses.

It's the "clients" who squeal like stuck pigs when their board goes up $25. I don't think barn owners are the bad guys here. Read the threads about boarding. My god, the clients expect you to lose money in order for them to afford keeping a horse. That's what you folks just don't understand. $15 an hour? Health insurance? Benefits? Paid vacation? All that becomes overhead that must be covered in the board rate. When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.

[undersaddle]

Are you kidding? I would love to have an equestrian job that wasn't slave labor in disguise! I am a super hard worker, very experienced and reliable, independant etc. I come up early, go above and beyond- for what?
Everyplace around here thinks they can pay you minimum wage or less, have you start at 5 am AND muck stalls 7 days a week. Why would I even bother? I have a life and a mortgage, I need a job that pays me what my experience is worth. Most horse jobs don't do that.

I completely agree with you. I have had the same experience. I have also encountered a lot of bias do to the fact that I also earned my 4 year degree in Equine Science, as though I haven't been down in the "trenches", when in fact I did before and after, and earned a degree as well as my instructors certification. I've paid dues by working for nothing or little there and have also been a "working student," how many dues need to be paid before it evens out and I get to pay all of my bills and student loans? Oh yeah and have time to do my laundry?

[shawneeAcres]

OK, here's the deal! I was laid off from my job in August a WELL PAYING computer analyst position. Right now I am a bit burned out and not sure I want to return. Have done horses professionally a few years (10 - 12 ) ago and now returning to pro. However, in the meanwhile had to make some $$$! So am working for two barns WHILE I run my own. I know everything about horse care, am an H-A pony clubber (from many years ago, now 48 yrs old) have run 7 separate barns, and am now cleaning stalls, cleaning the barn, working horses on the lunge, scrubbing buckets, etc. 4 days a week at two separate barns. Know enough to make EDUACTED decisions, I could RUN these barns better than they are being run. Am being paid LESS THAN minimum wage, no benefits etc. Its OK for right now, soemthing to do but honestly, one of these barns makes $700 per month training and has a barn FULL of 18 horses! Couldn't he afford a BIT more when after all, I work the horses three times to each ONE that he works them. Sorry for my vent but if you want GOOD RELIABLE KNOWLEDGEABLE HORSE PEOPLE step up to the plate and PAY THEM something decent!

[county]

So why should anyone work for peanuts so someone else can have cheaper board?

[Renn/aissance]

How about $400 a week, free rent, free utilities, one week's paid vacation for a 6 day a week job? Or $10 an hour for a groom's job. You'd be surprised how hard it is to fill those jobs.

If I lived in Georgia you would have a phone call.

[poltroon]

Noooo, not my horse habit. I keep my personal horses at home. I fed and mucked BEFORE I left for the training barn this morning. And I fed at 8:00 tonight after I finished work. I do my own grunt work for my horses.

It's the "clients" who squeal like stuck pigs when their board goes up $25. I don't think barn owners are the bad guys here. Read the threads about boarding. My god, the clients expect you to lose money in order for them to afford keeping a horse. That's what you folks just don't understand. $15 an hour? Health insurance? Benefits? Paid vacation? All that becomes overhead that must be covered in the board rate. When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.

OK, the clients' horse habit. Shit flows downhill, as the saying goes. They expect the barn owner to subsidize them, he can't/won't, so he wants the help to subsidize them.

I do understand. I run a business. I know the score.

Health insurance, and worker's comp. That is a cost of living. It is not some luxury. Yes, for a while you can do without. But one day, the worker will get sick, or the worker will get hurt. And then the worker will pay the bill, with interest, for those years of not paying for health insurance. Not the barn owner and not the clients, the worker. And the barn owner will be pissed because the worker didn't show up.

You can hire workers without cars, but you'll find they have trouble being where and when you need them. Not because they're not responsible, but because they're not in control.

If you are paying below a living wage, you will get these kinds of workers:
- people who are between living situations, like students, and are not looking to stay permanently
- people who are not smart enough to calculate their cost of living and to realize that there is no way over the long term to pay it on the wage you offer
- people who have lower costs because they are willing to live in shady living situations and take a gamble, like illegal immigrants, in order to get a foothold in the US
- people who are subsidized by other money - parents or spouses
- people who can't get any other work

Why shouldn't your clients pay the real cost of keeping their horses in a boarding barn? After all, they're the ones that get the pleasure out of it.

[poltroon]

BTW, Jsalem, I would consider $400 a week with free housing and free utilities to be a living wage.

[SEP]

Jsalem

In your last post you said it the best.

Or the client that whines about a $5.00 /lesson increase and then asks you to hold the Sat morning time slot for free, while they go on their annual trip to Europe first class for a month in the summer.:D

[Angela Freda]

At the barns I have boarded at, MOST of the owners had MANY of their own horses in the barn, and always boo-hoo'd that they could not afford to run the place. See any connection? You can not fill the stalls of the barn with your own horses who are not bringing in board, and expect to make money.
And it's awfully hard to take the "I can't afford to pay you a decent salary..." speech from a person who just pulled up in their new Jaguar, wearing their leather fullseat breeches and custom boots with fully manicured and bejeweled fingers... to ride one of their 8 horses.

I worked at a wonderful barn job where I earned a decent wage, and had a rent free apt, paid vaca, benefits, board on my horse, etc. I Learned alot at that job, at one of the premiere horse breeding and training farms in the country. After that experience I believe I am worth well more than min. wage with no benefits.

At my most recent job, I made $8 an hour working at a store in the mall. Why freeze to death, and run the risk of getting hurt without health benes, for less money working in a barn? Would I rather work in the barn? Absolutely! But to the smart, hardworking, experienced employee so many of you are seeking, that just doesn't make any sense.

[ESG]

It's the "clients" who squeal like stuck pigs when their board goes up $25. I don't think barn owners are the bad guys here. Read the threads about boarding. My god, the clients expect you to lose money in order for them to afford keeping a horse. That's what you folks just don't understand. $15 an hour? Health insurance? Benefits? Paid vacation? All that becomes overhead that must be covered in the board rate. When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.

Thank you.

I once figured out that, after mucking, feeding, turnout, and generally taking care of my eight stall barn, my income from my boarders afforded me exactly $.76 per hour. The deficit has to be made up by training and lessons, which are done after all the other gruntwork is finished.

So, on roughly $1 an hour, you want me to be able to pay $10-$15/hour, and give bennies? Sorry - I know I don't know squat about economics, but I'd really need to have someone show me how that could work. :rolleyes:

[tbtrailrider]

Yup, jumphigh, I'm with you. I loved that piece.

How about $400 a week, free rent, free utilities, one week's paid vacation for a 6 day a week job? Or $10 an hour for a groom's job. You'd be surprised how hard it is to fill those jobs.



Is that what you offer?
Then you are not the norm, my friend.
I am 45 years old , been working with horses since I was 17, up until a few years ago.
I can no longer get employment in the TB industry here in KY.
Too many Mexicans.
There.
I said it.
Why hire an old woman with a few creaks and cricks who wants at least 8 bucks an hour, when you can hire a Mexican man half my age for 6 bucks an hour?
I was able to get a job rubbing racehorses for a nice trainer in Lexington...beautiful barn, lovely horses, I was the only woman groom and the only American other than the trainer, his wife and the ponygirl.
I had to quit, but that is another story, I did not feel comfortable working there and we will leave it at that.
You have no idea how badly I want my career back.:sadsmile:

[county]

So if someone doesn't want to work cheap why would they expect others to?

[ESG]

tbtrailrider, the farm labor here won't work for less than $8/hour, and they don't have your experience. You're a bargain. I'd hire you in a minute.

[ESG]

So if someone doesn't want to work cheap why would they expect others to?

See my post above about my "hourly wage". ;)

And why? Because this is show business, my friend. If you want to be in show business, you sacrifice. Everyone wants to get paid to do what they want to do, rather than what they have to do. Every graduate from Julliard dreams of being a high paid actor, a successful concert musician, or a bankable recording star. Partly because of the money involved, but mostly because that money is made doing something they're passionate about.
And if you want to be in the horse business and do something you love, you can expect to make the same sacrifices as those aspiring actors, singers and musicians do, when they wait tables, clean houses, and park cars. :winkgrin:

[county]

Well my freind I did see your post about your hourly wage and I still say just because you want to work for nothing hardly means others should show business or not. We show we doin't work for nothing and do not expect those who work for us to do so.

[Gayla]

I have a Master's in Human Resources and what you are complaining about is market economics. You aren't paying enough to get quality workers. It doesn't matter how much you think you are paying, it is not enough to attact the type of workers you desire. Plain and simple. I think that way to attract good barn help is with good benefits such as a place to live for free, with room for a small family or at least a partner, some paid time off that you fill in, travel, free board on a horse and show privilages such as free trailer space, they cover their own stall, entry fees, you cover their days at the farm so many times a year so they can go to a few shows with their shifts covered. You have to be creative and think about what you can give them that is NOT money. It is proven over and over again that people are not motivated by money and can get along on very little if there are other things in the job that they love. The problem is with you the employer, always. Just like when a rider wants to blame the horse...:rolleyes:

[tbtrailrider]

tbtrailrider, the farm labor here won't work for less than $8/hour, and they don't have your experience. You're a bargain. I'd hire you in a minute.

Thanks...
I have not given up, but time after time, application after application, I never get a call back.
I have excellent references from people at Shadwell Farm in Versailles, a couple of vets at Hagyards in Lexington, and this fella..

http://www.woodsedgefarm.net/

Mexican men were instrumental in my leaving that farm, and I had been there 5 years.
I really do not mean to sound so non PC when I say that, but dammit, it's true.
No BO or FO is gonna fire 10 men becuase of 1 woman..the woman is gonna suffer.
I am now considering starting a horse sitting business......:)

[citydog]

When customers are willing to pay the real costs of keeping their horses in a boarding barn- then we'll talk.

When barn owners are willing to compensate employees fairly then they can complain.

[MoonBallad]

Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!

I have to side with the workers on this one. We live in the city but very close to a very nice surburban county that only has two real barns in the county (there are a few smaller places that are entirely owner operated - very small) The other two charge alot for board. One is $1100.00 a month with an additional monthly charge if you actually want your horse to be turned out for a couple of hours every day and the monthly board at the other one is $1950.00.
My daughter, who has grown up with horses and is a very experienced 25 yr old, applied to work at both places. They offered her minimum wage. She was expected to muck stalls, feed, turn out, groom, bathe, hold horses for vet and farrier, medicate, tack, hand walk, etc... for minimum wage?????? Who can live on that? I don't think either barn is "hurting" for money. They each have 40+ stalls and both are filled with a waiting list - I know this because I wanted to bring one of my horses closer to home so I could ride more and I'm on both waiting lists. So how can they expect people to want to work for them when they can't survive on the salary? Especially anyone with any kind of real experience and knowledge. Yes they would get raises but how are they supposed to survive until they've gotten enough raises to pay the rent and buy groceries?
The horse industry is notorious for back breaking work with very little compensation. Even the $10 an hour someone mentioned just doesn't go very far for anyone other than a 16 yr old kid.

If a barn owner can charge enough for board to be able to pay their employees a decent wage then they better be prepared to do the work themselves because they will never have steady employees - why would anyone want to work in a fairly dangerous job, for long hourse doing back breaking physical work? And that bit about "its show business" is just too silly. There's a HUGE difference between actors, musicians, and artists in the early days of their careers and barn laborers. I spent my entire career in the entertainment industry - the music business to be exact - and struggling artists have other jobs they go to while sending out demos, going on auditions etc hoping that something will hit. Barn workers are generally NOT aiming to ride in the Olympics they are just people looking to make a living doing what they like the best and are knowledgeable about and working in a barn IS their job. Not something they are doing to pay some kind of imaginary "dues". IF they are aiming for the Olympics then working in a barn would most likely end that dream for them since they wouldn't have enough time in the saddle because all of their time would be taken up taking care of your barn and your boarders horses! Besides with the current salaries they wouldn't have the money to pay for training!

Bottom line is if a barn owner is "paying" herself an hourly wage of $.76 and expects others to work cheaply as well then that barn owner is not turning any kind of real profit and they aren't really running a business but having a hobby. I would look into what is going wrong with the business and find a way to turn a better profit.

[BoysNightOut]

When barn owners are willing to compensate employees fairly then they can complain.

Amen!

If someone think the horse business is all about "sacrafice" and are unwillinging to pay a decent salary for whatever reasons they come up with, then expect to get what you pay for and don't complain. And if you don't like the level of work you receive for $6/hour, then consider it a "sacrafice" of being a cheap employer.

[mst]

if we are talking about full time employees trying to make a living doing this-

a) it is hard to break even running a barn but good employees actually save you money. Bad or unknowledgeable make mistakes that you have to fix. Sometimes it just requires time and physical effort to fix it and times it costs money to fix it. Clients leave do to help like that. Thats a loss as well.

b) my staff gets housing, a vehicle to drive, meals sometimes, and an extra $25 a day when we are on the road to help pay for eating out. A low base salary isn't so bad when you have no overhead!

c) health insurance and benefits. its expensive. payroll taxes are too as well as workmans comp. Hire illegals and that isn't needed. They work hard but are ILLEGAL. Lots of s.s. being lost.

I pay my good people $400-$500, depending on how experienced they are, a week plus that $25 a day stuff when we are showing. So they can take home as much as 675 in one week. expense free! The problem is after a little while, they start slipping up at times that are crucial. $675 is alot of money to be spending to have an employee show up 3 days in a row 2 hours late and not want to wait for the blacksmith after 5 pm. The great workers that are trustworthy, reliable, and care about the horses are hard to find.

Now if its working students we are talking about:

They should work their butts off. they should be getting training from their mentor and great experience that well off kids pay big bucks for. These kids have to really want it. I was one who worked my butt off doing some things that were borderline torturous but I got back something in return that cannot be bought at any price. I earned it. I came out a better horseman because of it as well. I have tried to take in working students to give them the opportunity i had. They don't want to dig in If you think cleaning 5 bridles, grooming the horses you are riding that day, and filling water buckets equals a lesson or two everyday and a free horse to show in the equitation that weekend, your wrong. A lot of kids think any more work then that is crazy and that they have earned it all. They dont want to work. Maybe its the influence of the ones who have it easier. Don't get me wrong,some wealthy kids work hard and have a bit of horsemanship but they also have the luxury of their own horses, custom boots, and weekly flight to florida.

[catknsn]

The problem is with you the employer, always. Just like when a rider wants to blame the horse...:rolleyes:

I respectfully disagree. I have seen people take very well paid horse jobs ($2500 month cash, plus a place to live, plus health and dental) and still be slackers. I have to agree with the folks who say today's world is simply full of slackers! Doesn't matter what you pay. I see it in the corporate world AND the horse world. People who take off more than a reasonable amount of time. People who come in late and leave early. People who cannot be trusted to do as you requested the moment your back is turned. People who lie and say they did work they didn't do. This a wide-ranging problem not specific to the horse industry. It has to do with poor parenting and parents who don't ever want their kids to dislike them, so they do not discipline and they do not demand that the child do as they are told. If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.

[poltroon]

Just a note, it is the employer's minimum legal obligation to pay worker's comp and to withhold and pay payroll taxes. If you are not doing that, you could be looking at a heap of trouble down the road.

It is true that there are slackers at every pay level. I can tell you about slackers at $100 an hour and up. But, if you want someone to stay with you for several years as a permanent job, you should expect to give them the same compensation you would need to do it and live a life. People who are fretting about paying their bills aren't reliable and steady employees regardless of their base nature. As Gayla points out, it doesn't all have to be in cash. Smart people aren't going to and shouldn't have to impoverish themselves for you, particularly if they believe that if they get hurt and can't work that you'll toss them out on their ear, no place to live, unable to work. Respect your people and mentor them and that will also keep them longer than the money alone.

By all means, pass it on to the clients. They too are slackers, expecting to board their horses for less than cost.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

As a kid, I always dreampt of going pro and one day making a living off of riding and showing. Once reality hit and I experienced the life of showing on the "A" circuit at which point we maxed out our budget completely to allow me to go to 10-12 shows per year with a green horse (because we couldn't afford one already made up), I realized how UNrealistic that life was for someone trying to make a living in the industry. Even then, I was blindingly aware of the differences between me and the other kids that basically lived at the horse show because of their financial situation. That's when I realized I love riding. I love being able to show, to have my own horse, to have my own "time" and the dream kind of fell apart. I saw my trainers working 12 hour days without even touching their own horses, much less putting in ride time on their own guys because their time is totally monopolized by the needs of the client.
Instead, I am taking a break from riding for a while (as hard as that is) and I have leased out my wonderful, not so green anymore, horse to a kid starting the childrens. Instead of investing in the bottomless pit that is horses, I'm investing in my education so that I might one day have a job to support the type of riding I'm really interested in doing. As many of you want to say that there is this huge plethora of oppurtunity available to the hard worker- you're wrong. There's a huge plethora of oppurtunity available for you to acquire cheap labor from people who are too passionate about the business to care, only to have them burn out because they're sick of living in your "housing" eating ramen noodles for 3 meals a day. Most of the positions available out there don't even pay enough to survive off of, much less enough to be able to maintain a horse of your own. Why do you think so many migrant workers are willing to work in the business? Because it's unskilled labor (for the most part, and what isn't unskilled is easily picked up with experience) that pays minimum wage and you don't have to be a genius to do it. I don't know about most people, but I've not been interested in holding an unskilled manual labor position for someone whose standards are already so high, there's no way to keep the employer happy since I was 14 and I thought my trainer could walk on water.
And to the poster who said we are living in a time when kids think they are all special- Amen! It's about time kids got smart about their goals and instead of taking the winding, unproductive, not-useful-in-the-real-world, road, take the direct route of REAL education (don't get me started on "equine degrees") so that a REAL job (with benefits, more than a living wage, and *gasp* a little money left over to feel comfortable and enjoy life) might support this incredibly expensive sport.
I whole-heartedly agree that BOs need to either offer their employees enough money to make a position desirable, or stop complaining. No wonder no one can find "good" workers in this industry- all the good ones have realized it's not worth it and gone on to the next step in order to stay in the game! And if you can't afford to make ends meet while paying your employees a decent salary, then perhaps you, too, should look into another career path. That, or downsize so you don't need employees. My trainer has 8 stalls at $700/month with 7 of those being boarders. She does all of the work by herself. This (plus lessons, both on and off the farm, shows, sales, training, etc.) is how she makes a living. Perhaps it's the BOs that need to get their priorities straight.

[AC & Ty]

I think that way to attract good barn help is with good benefits such as a place to live for free, with room for a small family or at least a partner, some paid time off that you fill in, travel, free board on a horse and show privilages such as free trailer space, they cover their own stall, entry fees, you cover their days at the farm so many times a year so they can go to a few shows with their shifts covered. You have to be creative and think about what you can give them that is NOT money. It is proven over and over again that people are not motivated by money and can get along on very little if there are other things in the job that they love.

YES YES YES!!!! :yes:

This is what I'm looking for...I work at a large company right now, I make almost 17/hr and I have benefits and 401K. I HATE IT. I am bored silly.

I could take a cut in salary IF board for both of my horses was included. I do want insurance, but if it was only health, that would be okay. I can live without vision/dental for now. I am willing to come in early and stay late to do self care for my horses, so that I am not working with them during paid hours. I would tote kids to horse shows on school horses on my day off, if they needed me to.

There is not much I wouldn't do to care for my horses, and to be with them all day. I have worked at many barns, and there are those coveted positions out there that pay well and have excellent benefits...but the people IN those positions have been there FOR YEARS because they are great jobs...so it's hard to come by these good positions.

Bottom line is I just want to be with horses. I'm not trying to get rich...I want to get up every morning, jump in my truck with my dogs, sipping my coffee, and open big barns doors and hear nickers greeting me...as I watch my dog chase the barn cat and then watch the cat chase the dog...and head straight for the radio, then the feed room...

To me, that's a dream job...

[Trakehner]

Low pay at barns...not a surprise...

Experience for most barn tasks is worth...oh, maybe 2%. How much talent does it take to fill a water bucket? Fork manure into a wheelbarrow, and then fork bedding into same wheelbarrow? There's maybe 10 minutes of training to reach full capability in this area.

Mowing? Ask any 10 year old kid who mows the yard...except for warnings of: Don't run over yourself, reach for the blade while it's turning and hoses are not grass...there isn't much training involved with this task either...maybe 15 mintues, and 10 of those are how to start the recalcitrant mower.

Feeding? The sign on the stall says, "1 scoop"...well, another 10 minute task to learn and master.

So, for the general stable workforce, you have mind-numbingly boring work, repetitive in typically unpleasant work environment (the standard too hot/too cold) working around all-too-common primadonnas for not much money. Sounds like a deal to me! It's why all the illegals head towards stoop labour and barn work...no brains/language skills etc. needed to shovel anything coming out of a horse.

The McDonald's around here starts "you want fries with that?" employees at $9.50/hr. You get a hat, polyester clothes and benefits with the potential to move up if you want to. The difference in a burger flipper after a day and a burger flipper after 12 years is 0/nada/nothing...which is why unless employees are moving up in the company they are slowly forced out...don't need a higher priced employee doing menial labour when there is no increased "value added" to their work.

Barns are the same way. Except for a decent barn manager, there isn't any benefit to an old hand at shoveling scata and sweeping aisles. Even for barn managers, there really isn't a big difference worth the pay between a 5 year vs. 30 year person....so why hire the 30 year person, they've got medical problems coming up and may not have kept up with new and improved ways of doing things....plus, they have families who can get in the way of their work.

If you want a career mucking horse crap...go to school, get a career, buy your own barn and do it for fun or a hobby. For money, most barn tasks can be done handily by the mentally handicapped (we have had several handicapped guys who worked at the barn...they were great, loved the horses, were always on time and did a wonderful job...any barn owner looking for stable help, check out the local county mental health office, they go begging looking for places for these people to work...and will even supplement their salary).

[AC & Ty]

But could the mentally handicapped bandage, run an IV, give shots, diagnose lameness, recognize colic, deal with boarders and clients, set up vet/farrier appts and speak and UNDERSTAND the vets diagnosis, shavings and hay deliveries, etc???????? HELL NO.

I can do all of this and more. I can supervise ANY number of personnel. (Thank you USMC)

Believe you me, I am looking for my own place. But until then...I WILL work at a barn if I find the right position. I posted a while ago about working off board...and quite a few people wrote that a dedicated employee was "priceless"...I often wonder why barns have 3 or 4 lazy-ass workers who are just there to be paid, not because they love horses, when they could pay 2 people a BETTER salary, who love horses, and work 10X better...CONFUZZLES me...;)

[mintyfresh]

I would love a job with horses, absolutely love it! But how am I going to live and pay for my two kids on $10 an hour?

It's hardly that I'm opposed to hard work. Heck, I'm a waitress right now, but when I was figuring it yesterday I average anywhere from $15 - $25 an hour depending on the day, most of that is cash, and way more days in the $20 - $25 range.

You show me a horse related job that I can actually LIVE off of and doesn't require going to florida half the year (can't be moving my kids around like that) and I'll be all over it.

I've been around horses for over 17 years, I've owned my own horse for 15 years. I worked in stables from the time I was 12 until I was 18, including managing a 30 horse stable for a summer with only one other worker for $5 an hour (the actual owner/manager was a drunk who never left the house). I have tons of experience and have no qualms about working hard. I'd be a great worker, if someone out there was willing to pay me enough to live off of.

Until the BO's pay a living wage I can't see how they can complain about their workers.

[Angela Freda]

Basic stall cleaning work is a low level skill, with little need for training. "This is poop. Remove it from the stall." Given.

But recognizing when a horse is NQR, knowing the difference between tying-up and colic and what to do in each case? Being able to tell the vet ALL of the even subtle symptoms (and knowing which ones are important and which arent) ad follow his/her instructions to supplement the vets care? Handling a silly horse so that neither horse nor handler gets hurt (and maybe horse learns not to get silly when handled- without being abused)...

Experience and skills are part of the job, and are worth money.
If you are only hiring inexperienced simpletons to do the grunt work... please give me your barns web addy, cause there is no way in Hades I would board my horse where the workers only skills are recognizing what poop is.

[AC & Ty]

OH...and just to add...the only "baggage" I have is 2 dogs and 3 cats.

NO HUSBAND. NO KIDS. (Am using the current insurance to cover the tubal ligation - ha ha)

I AM THE PERFECT EMPLOYEE.

I will say that I do think more farms should offer insurance. A percentage of it will be taken out of your check. Horses are inherently dangerous. I just backed away from a REALLY nice barn because they wouldn't give me insurance until I was there A YEAR. Well, I'll probably fall off AT LEAST 6 times before that! :D

[Jude]

You are running a business. If you would like to avoid the hassles of running a business, stop running said business.

If I open a hardware store, I'm not allowed to whine this much. If I start an internet start-up, I'm not allowed to whine this much. Why did you start a business if you don't want to run one?

It isn't a horse career with a few details thrown in, it is a business where the product/service/client happens to be horses. No different than a spa or B&B, except for who walks in the door. You want a life with horses and none of this business crap in the way? Get rid of your business and try being an employee. For someone else. Who feels the same way you do. THEN you come back here and post how thrilled you are at getting paid jack.

[Just My Style]

Construction labor here make 15 to 35 $/hr. That is entry labor with no experience to lead ma on the crew + overtime, and insurance. WHY do I want to muck stalls at 10?

That's ridiculous. You can't equate mucking stalls to construction. It's a different pay scale and it should be. "Here's a turd- put it in a bucket" is one of the easiest skills I think a person could master. Now, if they are expected to run and IV, do bandages, etc they should be paid more. More responsibility = more $.

You show me a horse related job that I can actually LIVE off of and doesn't require going to florida half the year (can't be moving my kids around like that) and I'll be all over it.


There are thousands of horse related jobs that you can live off of. I tell this to people over and over. You do not have to work in a barn to have an equine job. Think of all the items you purchase, books you read, magazines you subscribe to, etc. They do not just magically appear out of the sky. People go to school, get degrees and get those jobs. Just the other day, my local PetsMart was looking for a full time manager to manage just the equine department. Good company. Good benefits. The sign has been up for easily over a month. Go to Monster.com or Careerbuilder.com and type in "equine" or "equestrian". There will be jobs, I promise. ;)

[Czar]

Well I've been on both sides of this battle.

Horses are, above all things, a passion for most horselovers whether you are a groom, a trainer, or a high-paying client. I've not yet met one horseperson in any capacity that did not have to sacrifice in some way to enjoy their passion...granted some more than others.

What I am trying to say is that working in the horse business is not like your average 9-5 office job and if you expect it to be, than you are barking up the wrong tree as far as careers go. You can complain to high heaven, but that's just the way it is. If you're not willing to sacrifice, than don't look at getting a job working with horses.

As a worker, I do recall my employers expecting a lot for the wage they paid me. I was the only one who could braid so guess who started at 4:00 in the morning with no extra pay? I honestly didn't mind the low wage in the first place but I do think extra effort in any profession should be acknowledged and compensated for.

Years later as a barn manager, I ALWAYS made sure I thanked my help for a job well done and rewarded them in some way (they were teenage girls so usually taking them out for ice cream was sufficient ;)).

BTW...my guess is that those of you who say mucking doesn't take any training probably have never run their own barn...we actually fired people b/c they didn't muck properly...it would drive me crazy to see half a wheelbarrow of clean shavings that could have stayed in a stall or go in after the stall has been "cleaned" and find piles of crap covered over...like I said, the horse business is built on passion (even caring enough to do the stalls properly) so if you don't have it - find another job

[Angela Freda]

Just the other day, my local PetsMart was looking for a full time manager to manage just the equine department. Good company. Good benefits. The sign has been up for easily over a month.

I applied for this same job at my local Petsmart. Twice I left a very professional resume, talked to the manager on Duty about my horse, marketing, sales and retail experience. NEVER got a call back. And the Equine dept of the store is STILL carrying blankets in the wrong size for the majority of the horses in our area.

[tbtrailrider]

I just had to throw another 2 cents in...
I feel like I am the perfect employee as well, People with families are a good investment, not always a burden. My children are teenagers and not afraid of hard work, they both work now.
I am that employee who can recognize lameness, give shots, speak with the vet,run any kind of bandage,braid ,pull manes , pull off a loose shoe without tearing up a foot,the list could go on and on and on...
It seems that most farms want people with only so much experience,they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.
That's why the Hispanic worker is the worker of choice around here...they DO work their arse off, they DO follow instructions...all I had to do was point and say "me ayuda" (help me) por favor, and they would be right on top of it,whatever it was.
I am an unskilled laborer ...my last jobs have been as a hotel housekeeper and a cashier in a gas station....I would KILL for a job like described before...400 a week and a house....dream job....:yes:

[Gayla]

I respectfully disagree. I have seen people take very well paid horse jobs ($2500 month cash, plus a place to live, plus health and dental) and still be slackers. I have to agree with the folks who say today's world is simply full of slackers! Doesn't matter what you pay. I see it in the corporate world AND the horse world. People who take off more than a reasonable amount of time. People who come in late and leave early. People who cannot be trusted to do as you requested the moment your back is turned. People who lie and say they did work they didn't do. This a wide-ranging problem not specific to the horse industry. It has to do with poor parenting and parents who don't ever want their kids to dislike them, so they do not discipline and they do not demand that the child do as they are told. If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.
I think this is a wide sweeping statement that is too broad. I would be carefully think about the idea that we get out of life what we expect. I will agree that teenagers need a great deal of coaching to succeed. But they don't know how to work. It is a skill and that goes for many adults. There are many many bad bosses, and they always have bad employees. Funny how it works that way. :D

[Czar]

they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.


That's b/c it's their facility and horsepeople are notorious for wanting things done their way :yes:...and every one has a different view :lol:

Another thing about being in the horse business....if you don't like being told what to do...DON'T work as farm help...learned that the hard way. I grew up on a horse farm so working for someone else was eye-opening to say the least...there were so many things that I disagreed with. Not necessarily major issues...just little things - like I'm a turnout nazi and the first farm I worked for only turned out each horse for a hour a day and the paddocks would sometimes stand empty for the last 2 hours of the working day since all the horses had already had their hour...drove me insane!

Which was why I came home to manage our own farm - loved running the show and I realized that I would never be able to work for someone again unless I was managing.

[Just My Style]

I applied for this same job at my local Petsmart. Twice I left a very professional resume, talked to the manager on Duty about my horse, marketing, sales and retail experience. NEVER got a call back. And the Equine dept of the store is STILL carrying blankets in the wrong size for the majority of the horses in our area.

I would call corporate and ask if you can submit your resume through them. I would also follow up with the manager again. It may be disorganization- or it may be a test to see how persistant a person can be. They probably get dozens of resumes from people who are not qualified of who lack a proper work ethic. I think that you should push them for an answer as to their hiring time frame. You may show them that you are not just any person who drops a resume and drives away. And I agree- they do need people who understand equine. I don't think their regular workers know a darn thing about horses. Your knowledge would be very beneficial to them.

I also just did a search on some of the jobsites. There are jobs with Primedia, Fort Dodge, Merial, Dover Saddlery, several different vet clinics, PetsMart, Reeves (Breyer)... I could go on and on. Lots of opportunities.

[StefffiC]

I've worked in barns for almost 10 years now. Thankfully there have been some EXCELLENT ones along the way. Most of the problems I've had with pay and expectations have been from trainers who thought they were so very good and I was nothing.

But, in the Saddle Horse industry it's different. Really different. I made a decent wage for the work I did. Tips were given by clients. People said thank you, they bought gifts for holidays.

I'm not a bad worker. I do my job, and for the saddle horse people I worked for I went above and beyond many times without getting "paid" for it. It was worth it because he treated his employs great and said thank you. That little gesture of being *thankful* I was at the barn meeting horses at 11pm coming from a show made it worth it.

I've got my own small facility and I'm looking for a barn to train out of, so I know the work that a facility requires and I'm not above hard work. I'm above being treated like $h!t, not getting paid, and all the drama that goes along with the industry!

Steph

[flshgordon]

It's been (quite a) few years since i had my last horsey/slave job but I started out working there FOR FREE mucking stalls, lunging horses, turnouts, bandaging, just to get the riding time, then finally got hired on as a groom for min. wage and then later breaking/training young horses (inherently more dangerous) for just a few pennies more. We got 2 days off (everyone got diff days, not just sat/sun) I did it because I LOVED it and because I was sponge learning anything I could. I had back pain, foot pain, shoulder pain, heat exhaustion, etc. Luckily at the time I still lived with my parents and didn't have to worry about living arrangements. The pay at this place in general sucked, but the facility was very nice, well kept and the adult full time workers for the most part had the benefit of living ON SITE for free. This was quite a large facility so there were several small houses. I think that the one thing that kept these (white, american) people there for lower pay for YEARS is that they were getting the benefit of a place to live. I'm not sure about the utilities but when you take into account that you are giving someone a job and they don't have to pay rent, utilities is just a small part. They could use that money that would have been rent for insurance. Whoever said it's not all about the money, it's about the things they get otherwise. The workers at our barn live on site, have access to nice vehicles (even though they also have their own) and do get some days off. (I will note that it's hard for workers to ever get days off when you don't have enough help to cover the slack on the days you are not fully staffed) so IMO it's better to get creative about what you can offer other than just money....

AND....to the boarders out there, BE NICE to the barn workers!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: In all the barns I have been at, it blows my mind how some people treat the barn help as if they are not even there or even worse. Say hello to them even if they don't speak english, try to learn their names and don't purposely leave a mess for them that you should be cleaning up yourself. At Christmas, give them a tip, a card, whatever you can afford. Trust me, the first few times you try it, they may look at you like you have 3 heads thinking "what is this crazy person doing, no one ever talks to me" but after a while they will become comfortable with you and say hi right back. And if you ever need help they will be right there to do it. These are the people that CARE for your horses when you aren't around, why would you want to treat them like dirt?

If the boarders can help make it a better environment by being kind and appreciative to the workers, then maybe just maybe, they will enjoy working there a little more and want to stick around...even for a little lower pay

oops sorry, off my soapbox now! :winkgrin:

[MareForceOne]

Just wanted to throw in my $.02.

If you are a farm/barn owner, and as someone had mentioned, making only $0.76/hr on actualy board money, you have to consider the other benefits you have that don't cost you anything. For example, if you have 5 horses at your farm, and at the end of the month come out $.76/hr. in the black, it is really more than the $.76/hr that you made. You have to take into account the money that you [I]didn't[/I} spend that month on boarding the 5 horses.

For example, 5 horses @ $500/month (not even possible in my area), is $2500 per month. So, in addidtion to the $.76/hr, you can add $2500 per month. That, to me, is one of the largest financial benefits that many barn owners do not take into account when they complain about how little profit they make. $2500/month equates to $30,000/year. That means you'd have to work a job that grossed $45,000/year (of disposable income) more than what you'd spend on regular living expenses to clear the $30,000 (after taxes) that you'd spend on board to keep your 5 horses. Otherwise, you would not be able to keep your 5 horses.

Also, barn owners have the facility to teach lessons and host clinics or schooling shows, or hunter paces, or kid's 4-H type game days to make a profit as well.

Plus, you are your own boss.

If you live at the property, you don't have the costs of gas/tolls/commuting that many of us have.

Also, if you live at the property, you pay farm-rated taxes, which is a savings over what many of us pay in yearly property taxes.

Also, if you own the property/facility, you are also making money each year on your investment in the property itself. For example, after 10 years, you may be able to sell your property for $300,000 more than you bought it for. That would be basically an extra $30,000/year in profit from your investment over those 10 years.

So, there are many unseen financial benefits to owning and keeping horses at your own facility. There are also a lot of responsibilities, cost, and unexpected maintainace responsibilities. Insurance costs also. But overall, I did want to point out that there are financial benefits to being a barn owner, beyond the $0.76/hr, that are not always so obvious.

[equusrocks]

I've worked in barns for almost 10 years now. Thankfully there have been some EXCELLENT ones along the way. Most of the problems I've had with pay and expectations have been from trainers who thought they were so very good and I was nothing.

But, in the Saddle Horse industry it's different. Really different. I made a decent wage for the work I did. Tips were given by clients. People said thank you, they bought gifts for holidays.

I'm not a bad worker. I do my job, and for the saddle horse people I worked for I went above and beyond many times without getting "paid" for it. It was worth it because he treated his employs great and said thank you. That little gesture of being *thankful* I was at the barn meeting horses at 11pm coming from a show made it worth it.

I've got my own small facility and I'm looking for a barn to train out of, so I know the work that a facility requires and I'm not above hard work. I'm above being treated like $h!t, not getting paid, and all the drama that goes along with the industry!

Steph

I agree with what you're saying StefffiC. I worked at a small barn of 10 horses for two years. Most of the horses were owned by the BO, but a couple were boarders. I *loved* that job. I even gave up a better paying job for that one. The pay was a little over minimum wage. I got a roommate and dealt with it. Unfortunately, the BO was having some family difficulties and put all the horses up for sale. I couldn't stay (could not make rent on the hours I would have had)

I stayed that long because the owner appreciated me showing up every day. She said it many times, remembered my birthday, invited me to her Christmas parties, and just in general treated me like family. Her horses were lovely and I treated them as I treated my own. There was some sense of entrepreneurship (sp?). It goes both ways. Had she just thrown a pitchfork at me and pointed at the poop, gave me a list and told me to just get it done, I don't think I would have liked it so much. Being treated like just another stall cleaner doesn't foster developing a sense of pride in your work. (don't get me wrong, I still would have done the job, and done it well...just not with the same WANT to do well. It would have just been "It's my job" mentality) She gave me a list and said if I had any suggestions or ideas, to ask because she was always looking for new things to try. It was nice. In the barns I've since worked at, none of the BO's were like that. I highly doubt I'll ever work in a barn again. Why give up full benefits and good pay with set hours, for hard work in crappy weather, with long hours, and no benefits, and on top of it be treated like a pee-on by BO's and boarders? :no: I guess I've just been spoiled at the current job. I don't really want to leave. I even have time for my own horse (which is at home, so I can still feed that stall cleaning urge, lol)!! :)

[DMK]

If you are paying below a living wage, you will get these kinds of workers:
- people who are between living situations, like students, and are not looking to stay permanently
- people who are not smart enough to calculate their cost of living and to realize that there is no way over the long term to pay it on the wage you offer
- people who have lower costs because they are willing to live in shady living situations and take a gamble, like illegal immigrants, in order to get a foothold in the US
- people who are subsidized by other money - parents or spouses
- people who can't get any other work

Why shouldn't your clients pay the real cost of keeping their horses in a boarding barn? After all, they're the ones that get the pleasure out of it.

Amen.

We live in a free market economy, remember? You get what you pay for. If you are not finding people who are good and reliable workers in an economy that is stagnant for the middle class and below, then I can only assume they are a) getting something closer to a living wage elsewhere, b) you are impossible to work for or c) all of the above.

Do I sympathize with the fact that the horse owning upper end of that stagnant economy is also feeling the pinch and very resistant to paying more? Absolutely, I feel it every day, most especially when I visit the gas station, or god help me, pay the natural gas bill. Owning a business that ultimately depends on another person's disposable income is never easy, and a damn bit harder in tough times. But that doesn't change the fact that workers can get higher/living wages elsewhere, possibly even doing jobs that are just as hard if not harder. They aren't just choosing to starve homeless on the streets to avoid working in a barn.

[tullio]

reading this whole thread has made me so, so grateful for my job! Actually I have two jobs... leave a higher paying office job early each afternoon to go teach and be in the barn for a few hours... sounds crazy, but I eventually want to run my own barn and right now this is my version of being a 'working student.'

Even though I get paid less, I love the people I work with and the prestige associated with the barn - it will always be an excellent reference. I get little non-monetary bonuses here and there, and donuts are always available. The horses are wonderful. They could pay me half what they currently do and I'd still come to work every day because it's a great place to work. (And no, I don't ride there. At all.)

They could pay me twice what they currently do - and I'd quit if the people weren't awesome and I wasn't learning anything. There are other options and other ways of getting a horse fix.

And there are slackers and people with entitlement issues in every field, everywhere. This is so incredibly not unique to the horse world!

[mst]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtrailrider
they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way.

those are the comments i can't stand. Of course we want as experienced as possible but if you want to do things your own way, get your own barn.My ways got me my facility, my clients, and abled me to give you a job. If I only turn out for one hour, there is a reason for it. I don't mind explaining to you why i do that but not to have you tell me why i am wrong. Its the program i follow. However, experienced people that take care of horses,organize a barn and make it run smoother are hard to find. I pay my help very well, treat them like family, but still have a hard time getting good ones.

[Maple Shade]

This thread is amazing to me! Why don't all you people who want a decent job move to my area :winkgrin: I paid a 14 y/o kid with NO horse experince $7 an hour and couldn't keep him! Mind you he could work whenever he wanted wanted and take off whenever he wanted. Go figure!

[JimNYC]

Just thought I'd add my two cents in, as I've been on both sides of the fence. When younger, was one of those highly motivated workers, and money didn't matter, the experience and the learning did. Learned a lot, made no money, but put myself through college. Now enjoy a nice career (but can't afford horses here in NYC.)

Labor is the same in all industries...you can never find enough quality, dedicated help for what you are williing to pay.

Let's look at the horse industry and see what they are willing to pay, and I know the cost is passed on to boarders, who want everything for nothing.

Say you pay $400 per week, and free housing. That nets to, say, $300 per week. The worker has a car, with payment and insurance that takes care of one paycheck. You don't provide health insurance, that takes care of another paycheck. That leaves $600 per month to buy food, clothes, save for a house, save for retirement, put the kids through school, and pay for airfare and hotel for that one weeks vacation....and I hope you see where I'm going. If all you have to offer is money, there is no incentive. If you have knowledge and advancement to offer, hopefully you can still attract dedicated employees willing to get up early, work late, and sweat like hell.

And try saying thank you every now and then. You wouldn't believe how much it is appreciated.

[tbtrailrider]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtrailrider
they don't want someone too experienced,who may want to do things their own way..

Perhaps I should rephrase that to " who they assume they will want to do things their own way"
Believe me , I have learned that when it comes to horses there are 5 ways to do something, and ten ways not to, no matter what it is.
I do see a difference in the type of facilities we may be talking about, my experience has been with big and small breeding farms, not show barns, well only one show barn/boarding barn. That job didn't last because I was getting paid 6 bucks an hour, to tack up horses and groom,and here comes the trainer with this 18 hand draft cross out of the field, proceeds to put him in the cross ties, gives him 2 cc's of Ace in the muscle,and tells me to body clip him. For 6 bucks an hour. I am aware that is a 100 dollar job, tell her as much, and leave.
I realize I sound like I am whining here, but I am unemployed right now, and I suppose this thread hit a nerve....:)

[Parysa]

I've been at pretty much all the extremes. Of course, to me, having no college (yet--did the marry and have a baby thing first and am starting college in the spring) and little work experience outside of barns, I'm lucky to get more than min wage outside of a barn ($5.25 here). So the whole $10/hour is awesome pay for me. The problems I've run into at the (few) barns I've worked at for pay is that there just aren't enough hours to work. For example, I'm about to start at a stable back home (we're moving home this coming week after 5 years in the Army) making $7/hour, which is close to the highest pay I've ever gotten anywhere (which sucks, but again, I have no college yet), but will only get 20 hours/wk to start. However, that is going to be going up to 35 and I will get raises. So, to me, that's a dream job. I also have the chance to get more training, show the trainer's horses, and give lessons on the weekends. However, I've managed a stable where I was supposed to be getting lessons regularly and in several months only got 3, and almost no pay. I've also worked 50 hours/wk for one lesson per day. I've worked for people who were downright psycho and people who have treated me like family. I worked at one stable for crap pay, but got to ride pretty much whenever and whomever I wanted and the BO's husband cooked lunch for me every day. (That man could cook, lol!)
What I've found from that is this. The ones that either a) paid well or b) didn't necessarily pay well but treated me well were the ones that I stayed with for as long as they needed me and worked my butt off for. The ones that didn't pay well and treated me like crap on top of it, I ended up either quitting or slacking off, then realizing I was slacking and quitting. If you want good barn help, treat them well (even just coming out and handing them a bottle of water if they look hot or a cup of cocoa if they look cold and thanking them for their work) and pay them well. Find out what other places in the area are paying (not barns, but actual businesses) and try to pay somewhere in that range. If you're able to pay better, DO! If not, then extras like free board or a few lessons on top of pay or, if it's a horseless person, then a few rides on your horses go a long way. If I'm the only one there and the barn owner or trainer just comes and stands outside the stall I'm mucking and talks to me for 5 or 10 minutes, it makes me feel better. If all the other workers are going to lunch together and you've got one that's left alone, go eat with them. Little things go a long way. It's not all about the money. However, if someone is trying to pay their bills, you have to be competitive with the other businesses in the area if you want good employees. If your farm is a hobby, do it yourself or get a teenager to come over after school, but don't expect great employees. If your farm is a business, then treat it as one. ALL companies/businesses have clients (equiv to buyers, boarders, students, horses in training, etc) that pay them for their services, whether it be a product, tax filing, medical, horses, whatever. ALL companies have to have employees to be successful. If your stable is a BUSINESS, then it is the BO's responsibility to treat it as such. Pay your employees like any other business. Treat them well. Require them to do the job that you are paying them for. If they're slacking off, then treat them just like any other business would. It's a two-way street. If you're a business owner, it doesn't matter what TYPE of business you're running. It's still a business.

[Parysa]

This thread is amazing to me! Why don't all you people who want a decent job move to my area :winkgrin: I paid a 14 y/o kid with NO horse experince $7 an hour and couldn't keep him! Mind you he could work whenever he wanted wanted and take off whenever he wanted. Go figure!
Maple Shade, I WISH WISH WISH we were staying here or you could come to AL with me. I'd work for you any day of the week. (Seriously, anyone who wants a great job around great horses and is in GA, she is amazing!)

[molliwog]

...but you get what you pay for.
My part time barn help earns $12/hour. I have found that for any less, I cannot attract a responsible adult for part-time work here in the Pacific Northwest. I have three horses of my own, no boarders, and have to work for a living.

In return for this, I actually get to have a life and have time to ride my horse, and it's worth it.

[Emryss]

All this complaining about salary (or lack of it) still does not beat a rental barn that, while I was a teenager, CHARGED the horse-crazy kids for the privilage of grooming and saddling the rental horses for their daily rides. Granted, after six months, you "earned" enough experience to get to do it for nothing and one ride a week, so they weren't entirely self-serving....

[Parysa]

All this complaining about salary (or lack of it) still does not beat a rental barn that, while I was a teenager, CHARGED the horse-crazy kids for the privilage of grooming and saddling the rental horses for their daily rides. Granted, after six months, you "earned" enough experience to get to do it for nothing and one ride a week, so they weren't entirely self-serving....
Oh, jeez :rolleyes: That's like the one place that I worked that I was originally told that I'd get paid and that part of my JOB was to exercise the horses, but at the end of show season, I wasn't given my final paycheck and was told that I should be grateful the BO wasn't charging me more for use of the horses. :rolleyes:

[Jsalem]

Jim NYC, don't forget that the $400 a week, free rent and utilities houses a family. One of the family could also work for pay in the barn or elsewhere, perhaps somewhere that offers benefits.

[Sannois]

Well I would love a barn job, I am burned out from my career in the medical field, Quit my job in July. And if I could find a horse related job I would take it in a hot second. I am a very hard worker, consiencious, and know my way around a horse for over 30 plus years. Michigan is the worst state for unemployment. You have no idea how many times I have thought of just packing it up and moving. I figure no one will hire me because I am not 20 something! But I am far more reliable and responsible that alot of young folks I come across today. Plus there is no manual taks I cannot do. :yes:

[Sannois]

Thanks...
I have not given up, but time after time, application after application, I never get a call back.
I have excellent references from people at Shadwell Farm in Versailles, a couple of vets at Hagyards in Lexington, and this fella..

http://www.woodsedgefarm.net/

Mexican men were instrumental in my leaving that farm, and I had been there 5 years.
I really do not mean to sound so non PC when I say that, but dammit, it's true.
No BO or FO is gonna fire 10 men becuase of 1 woman..the woman is gonna suffer.
I am now considering starting a horse sitting business......:)


:no: So I might as well give up on that idea.. I'm 48 :( :no:

[ise@ssl]

We pay generously but still have trouble finding riders who are reliable. We pay $10 per hour - even to the man that mucks the stalls. We also pay 10% on any sale that a rider has helped train and prep the horse. We recently had a young German Bereiter intern with us for 2 1/2 months. Wow! What a hard worker and she never felt ANYTHING was too much for her to do or beneath her. She accomplished more training the horses in that time that some other "trainers" did with you young horses in 9 months. She lived with us and was a great house guest - always helping.

I've had young people here who seemed to feel turning up on time was being at least 1/2 late or never feeling they had to do much. Plus some that show up to interview are EVEN LATE FOR THAT or worse don't show or call. Come dressed with low slung breeches and their stomachs hanging out. Sorry - not at my farm. If you want to be a belly dancer go to a club and dance.

We are working on having more interns from Europe. Sorry but we have super horses and a great facility but we never ask anyone to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves and can't deal with this attitude of most of the young people in the US - that they are doing us a big favor by just existing. They also seem to have zero RESPECT for those of us who built these businesses or the fact they we JUST MIGHT know more than they do. We like to have people here who feel (as they do in Europe) that we are TEAM - mutual respect but also a chain of command.

[Maple Shade]

Is- You point the other amazing thing to me. When kids look at me very distastefully while I'm explaining tasks or drag their butts around in protest because they don't like a task or complain about how something "sucks" or tell someone else the job sucks (long list).... I wonder who on earth they think does this stuff when they are not around??? DOH! I'm a one woman show and do it all (Hubbie only does the tractor stuff). I built my business up from $500 and have always done everything (while working at my other business). I certainly know what hard work it is and am not insensitive to that fact. Once a kid approached me about a job. We were taking schedules etc. He said "Oh I don't want to clean your barn . I want to train your horses". I laughed right out loud before I managed to censor myself. :winkgrin: So, I'm supposed to clean/feed/tack so he can "train" my horses for me :lol: . I'm happy to pay people to ride as part of the job. BUT by golly if I'm doing a little bit of everything I certainly expect THEM to do a little bit of everything!

[mst]

ISE- isn't the work ethic of the europeans amazing! Even the top riders are out at 4 am mucking with their grooms. The BHS program produces some great people.

I also have nice horses owned by clients who pay a good amount to have their horses with me. When the arrive at the barn, my staff should be properly dressed, look happy doing their job, and answer simple questions the client may have. If the client wants to know if her horses new blanket arrives and does it fit, that groom better know what to say. Its a reflection of what your business is like.

We pay very well. Good salary, free housing, staff car, etc so why do some grooms find it necessary to trash hotel rooms, write their names on the wall of the house with majic marker, etc.

Having a show barn, we have one groom per every 3-5 horse. Each groom is assigned certain horses to care for. Works great. Point being, they are not overworked either.

[blueribbonbaby]

*Quote*There are horselovers bursting at the seams to have a job around horses that pays enough to cover health insurance, a car, a decent place to live, food and basics, opportunities to ride, something for retirement, and two days off a week.

Exactly...that is NOT too much to ask.



Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!

And this is why you people have a hard time finding people. It is possible to pay someone enough to cover basic living expenses!! Why on earth would people who did this work for years and years as kids and teenagers working for lessons now want to do it for not much more? People need to afford to live!! I think paying someone enough to survive on and owning a beautiful facility..yadda yadda yadda are two COMPLETELY different things. Barn work is hard work, and i enjoy it, if i am getting paid what i am worth. You people who are bitching about paying someone more to do the work...how much do you get an hour for lessons???? You people who drive the big trucks and big trailers. I know its not true for everyone, but i have seen some BO's homes and facilities....and what they pay their help. Its criminal. I dont think they need to pay someone some huge amount of money....but come on!!

[ise@ssl]

Well here it is blueribbonbaby in a nutshell (and I know I'm not alone in this history of life).

I came from the suburbs, blue collar family - NO HORSES nearby. My mother sent us out to Paoli for one lesson now and then with a rich friend's daughter who was obnoxious but I loved horses so I endured. Worked several absolutely HORRIBLE jobs to pay my way through an Ivy League school even dropping out for a while to make more money. Could afford ONE riding lesson a week for $20. Finally bought my first horse at the age of 26 - after I was married. Worked horrendous long days at professional jobs in Chicago and New York with only enough time to ride late at night and on weekends. Showed when it fit my work schedule but often had to scratch shows I'd paid for because I was sent on business trips all over the country. When I bought my first farm I was over 30! We did and pretty much still do all the heavy lifting ourselves on that farm and the one we own now.

Why should some snot-nosed college kids in their late teens and early 20's tell ME I have to provide them with a huge salary, benefits and retirement? And endure ATTITUDE that includes a full dose of DIS-RESPECT. Had I taken that attitude in the jobs I had during and after college they would have FIRED ME. I ate enough crow for years in the financial world to make a thousand pies. But it's the way it is when you are working your way up. The best advise I ever received after I graduated from Business School was from a very successful man who told me THE GOLDEN RULE - The Person With the Gold Makes the Rule - remember that in business.

The berieter who stayed with us arrived the same day we had a clinician arriving from Germany. She was able to take the reins on a horse (that actually belonged to a friend) who was green for 2 days and deal with her problems. She had my horse tacked for me without asking - I almost fainted because I never expected it. She had the schedule of the horses on charts, cleaned the tack room and also had to be prepared to handle a total of 23 horses and ponies - foals to GP schoolmaster for two weeks because I was leaving for 2 weeks in Germany. She didn't even BLINK. She felt this was an easy task. We do have someone do the stalls but she handled everything. When I arrived home - 4 young horses and 1 pony were started on the ground and two had been backed and mare who had been off to have foals was back working under saddle and my schoolmaster had been worked daily. Tack was clean, pads were washed and horses were groomed.

Do any of you honestly feel I can find a young person in this country to be able to do this? Her TRAINING as a Bereiter prepared her for this - in fact she was shocked she DIDN'T have to do stalls. As someone else pointed out - in Germany - even top riders expect to do a few stalls early each morning. AND I MEAN EARLY.

When I worked with her riding my horses - we discussed the training, she offered her suggestions, I offered mine - we worked together and had MUTUAL RESPECT. She (on her own) answered the telephone - saying Hello this is ise's barn, C.....speaking - how can I help you? Call a few barns that have young people in your area answering the phone - I doubt if they will say anything more than a bored hello and don't expect them to offer to take a message or even really do it and give it to the person you are trying to reach.

I think these reality shows on TV about the Medal Maclay and Rich girls and their horses has gone to a whole generations brain. They truly EXPECT things to be handed to them and feel they are ENTITLED to whatever they want with no hard work.

We've done the route of sending horses out to training farms and paying HUGE SUMS OF MONEY to young riders who feel they are the "moon and the stars" and as I was told by one "I should make all the decisions - you as the owner should just PAY THE BILLS". Needless to say that situation was terminated. But speaking to other breeders and owners - it's not unusual.

I'm not saying there aren't some young riders out there who have a great work ethic and understand respect and a team concept but they are like hens teeth to find. But to say you EXPECT good salary, benefits, retirement, etc. - well what are you offering?

[Linny]

My brother worked for 20 years at a barn and was a mucker from day one to day 30,000. Through him I have some perspective. He left the "horse thing" to take a job as a hospital orderly. Now he works 5 days a week not six. Now he works indoors with a/c and heat and full medical and retirement benefits. At 40+ years of age, the grind of a 40+ horse show/lesson barn was enough. Last winter for the first time ever, he didn't get bronchitis or pneumonia. When he did get a bad cold, he took PAID days off! Imagine. He worked for a decent guy who runs a nice barn. Clients there treated him like gold but the barn manager gave him alot of trouble and he'd simply had enough. His hourly wage to start at the hospital was $1.50 more than he was making doing barn work. He no longer has to use his personal vehicle to haul hay/equipment to shows. He doesn't have to do split shifts (early morning work-midday off-late evening work) because of the traffic flow through the barn each day.

I know for certain that had he decided to go to work for Jumphigh83 she'd have been thrilled to have him and he'd have loved to have a place to live on the property. By that time, he was just burned out. He loves horses but as no aspirations to be a rider or trainer.

The horse biz attracts 2 very different types of "help." One is generally the horse crazy girls who grew up riding and love horses. They are dedicated and usually want to learn but...mostly they are girls who grew up in middle class or "white collar" homes, wealthy enough to afford horses or lessons and eventually they will want to drift back to that suburban lifestyle. They spend some time "in horses" then realize that their salary will not pay for the niceties they are accustomed to and off they trot to college and a fancy career which allows them to buy and board a horse.
The second (general) category is that of "day labor." They are mostly unskilled, not horsemen and though they may be good workers, they'll often leave at a moment's notice when someone offers them $1 more an hour.

I know Jumphigh83 and know that she's a VERY reasonable boss. Her barn is nice and well run with a great group of people. She's often employed boarders/students who are great and have interest in learning horsemanship. The problem is that eventually they discover that the hard physical work of caring for horses simply cannot pay for the lifestyle they grew up in.
I used to manage a "domestics" department in a major department store. The ideal employee for me was someone who was interested in house and home stuff and wanted to learn. The problem was that I could only afford to pay so much and good help was taking what I was teaching them and going to places that paid better or becoming asst managers in big homeshops like LinensNThings. I'd then get stuck with high school drop outs who had such poor customer and communications skills that they HURT my business. Anyone who is hiring in a field that is traditionally low paying or "entry level" is up against the same thing. Once the good folks learn a bit, they want to move on. If the employer doesn't have a space for them (as most small businesses, like barns don't!) to move UP to, they leave.
Another issue is this: The ammy rules! I haven't ridden in months but when I did, I often hacked a horse boarded at Jumphigh's barn. I rode him in lessons as well. I'm pretty broke and would love to help her out as a PT mucker/helper but if I did and then wanted to show, I'd be a PRO. I know this thread is not about the ammy rule but it does come into play here.

[tbtula]

Forgive me but I didn't have time to read this whole thread yet.

I have worked a part time horse job since I was 16 (now 23) to support my horses. When I was out of a "normal" job I did work full time at a barn. I worked my ass off from 5 am to usually 7 or 8pm and then rode after that. I got paid $7 an hour. I really felt that I was wasting my time busting my butt for snot nose kids to try to tell me what to do. I don't want to sound rude but, that's the way it was. I also wasn't only mucking stalls, but pulling manes, trimming, tacking up, cleaning tack, making sure lesson kids were in the ring on time AND rematting/claying a 50+ stall barn. When I asked to have my pay rate re-evaluated the BO laughed at me and said "Why? I can just hire someone to take your place?" Well, I left that barn.

I would be thrilled to find a full time barn job with mostly normal hours (45-50) with a day off, and feel like I was an integral part of the operations of the barn. But in reality these jobs a few and far between. I have seen many that will give you free housing (shared barn apartments) and a small weekly stipend. BUT then insurance is up to you (face it folks it's darned expensive) not including your personal bills, your horse, and trying to put $ into the "nest egg"

So, after this long and rambling post, pay me what I should be making for the job that I am doing, provide benefits just like any other business (because most barns are a business, correct?) and maybe you'll have better luck finding normal hard working people that love the sport and want to promote it. If not, hey, hire a few illegal aliens, pay them $5 and hour, and you'll get what you pay for.

On top of that, if you are looking for a horse job, and you have a SO, trying to find living accomdations for the both of you isn't an easy task. When I was looking for a barn manager type position, and they heard that it was two people, and a horse lookiong to move, well it's an entirely different story. It didn't even matter that the SO had a real full time job, and was more than willing to help out the the 'handyman" jobs at a barn. (he's a carpenter) I was also willing to pay full board on my horse, and wasn't asking for anything extra just because there was 2 of us.

[grace_herself]

wow, this is a great subject, and as someone who has previously ( a long time ago lol) been a teenager, i can say, i did work in a barn, and did it for free, for the experience, and the joy of working with the horses. honestly, i enjoyed it so much, it never occured to me that the woman should have been paying me.
to those who say they are too "old" to go back to, or start working in the horse industry, fooey !! i'm 40 now, and didnt get back to it till i was 36. my first job back was working at a trail riding facility, i made 10 an hour, took care of 28 horses, fed them, tacked them, rode for over 5 hours a day, cleaned water buckets, untacked them, washed them, and fed them again, and couldnt BELIEVE i made 10 an hour plus tips !!
fast forward to now,i work as a BM, i don't get a paycheck at all now, i get free rent, on a very very tiny apt, have to pay the utilities, but get free board for 6 horses, and i buy thier hay and feed. i currently have 9 horses that are not mine here at the stable, i feed, muck, turnout, do blankets, and am in fact the ONLY employee at the barn. however, i feel i get fairly compensated for my work, and i work hard !!
i really feel that in order to do a job like mine, you need to feel it is a lifestyle, 24 hours a day, or not bother to do it all. i do not get days off, or insurance, thank heavens my husband helps me on weekends, or when im sick, and thank goodness he's in the military and we get full insurance.
i have NEVER been accused of being anything but my employers best employee ever, by all three horse jobs ive had in the last 4 years. i treat every horse as if they were my own, and recognize when they are sick, lame, depressed, whatever. i too, as someone said, "muck stalls like i was going to sleep in them" keep a clean barn, tack room, and feed shed. i am available to boarders 24/7, they all have my home phone, and cell phone, and i live on the premises.
what i DO ask for in return, is respect. i have an issue with boarders who treat me like i am low class. please !! i take care of your beloved baby !! and no matter how disrespectfull you are to me, i never hold it against him !!
i am a safety natzi, a helmet natzi, and a nature natzi. i have barn rules, and expect them to be adhered to.
i left my last job due to an injury i experienced because of the stupidity of others on the job, and a general lack of professionalism on thier part. i make less money now, but am far happier.
yes, people will always have to make some sacrifices to achieve what they want, but not being paid apropriatly, or a sum that both parties feel is fair, should not be one of them.
i also find that often people will work for less money if they feel they are appreciated, and respected, myself included.
most times, if an employer has a hard time keeping experienced quality employees, the problem lies with them, not their hirees. (like my last job, they went through 23 BM's in 7 years, oh puleese !! they couldn't ALL have sucked !!)

[ESG]

Well my freind I did see your post about your hourly wage and I still say just because you want to work for nothing hardly means others should show business or not. We show we doin't work for nothing and do not expect those who work for us to do so.

If you want to be in the business, you do what it takes. Try whining to the folks at Paramount or MGM about how haarrrddd it is to be an actor, and how many other $h!t jobs you have to take to support yourself to get where you're going. They'll probably be as sympathetic as I am. :p

[ESG]

Bottom line is if a barn owner is "paying" herself an hourly wage of $.76 and expects others to work cheaply as well then that barn owner is not turning any kind of real profit and they aren't really running a business but having a hobby. I would look into what is going wrong with the business and find a way to turn a better profit.

You clearly didn't read all of my post. I did say that lessons and training make up "the deficit". And the $.76/hour wage is indicative of the fact that I don't work 8-5, Monday thru Friday. I work Sunday to Sunday, 7 to 7. No paid time off. No bennies. And no, this is not a "hobby". At least, that's what the IRS says. :p

[undersaddle]

She had my horse tacked for me without asking - I almost fainted because I never expected it. She had the schedule of the horses on charts, cleaned the tack room and also had to be prepared to handle a total of 23 horses and ponies - foals to GP schoolmaster for two weeks because I was leaving for 2 weeks in Germany. She didn't even BLINK. She felt this was an easy task. Tack was clean, pads were washed and horses were groomed.

When I worked with her riding my horses - we discussed the training, she offered her suggestions, I offered mine - we worked together and had MUTUAL RESPECT. She (on her own) answered the telephone - saying Hello this is ise's barn, C.....speaking - how can I help you?

And I do the same thing when I work for employers who assist me in growing in the field as well as RESPECT me. I got to know all of my clients their schedules, personalities and needs. And ran a 30 stall barn for weeks at a time when my boss had to leave. I didn't have to do stalls, therefore, I was able to lunge/ride all of the horses, give lessons (which I got a % of), clean tack and barn, feed and put my hands on every horse. My boss paid me overtime if I had to work on my day off. Which she only asked in rare occurences. And I gladly did that. When I did have to leave, I found my replacement, trained her, and then moved once every one was settled. Again respect for both sides.

I was an employee and an EQUAL, not the barn b**ch, or a slave.

You also said she was a working student/ Intern. I have been there. Its easy for 2, 4, or 8 months to do that everyday because your "learning". Ask someone to put that out everyday for even a year with little time off to wind down or see family and unable to afford anything except for maybe fast food is impossible -That is when burn out occurs. Plus when people are no longer interns, they are no longer allowed to make mistakes, get sick, get hurt, or want to ride anymore? Why is that?
Roating days off with other barn staff so some is always there but you get 2 days off maybe 1 to 2 during foaling or show season (whatever your gig is) is not unreasonable.

It does tend to be a lonely job. And no offence while some of my bosses have been great. I don't want to live in their house eat every meal with their family, babysit their kids and work 8 to 12 hours a day with them. Personal time is nice. So while I think it is great people open their homes and families, there needs to be time away for each other.

When I have been a receptionist or administrative assistant. I was payed for doing the same job based on office work. Where one would be payed, given insurance, and expect to have some time off. Weekends, holidays, if not - overtime!

What is the problem paying younger people new to the field (if everyone is so excited about paying ones dues) minimum wage for stall cleaning? As an instructor, barn manager, or asistant trainer/ groom. I want to be with the horse. I love cleaning tack, wraping legs, even feeding. All jobs that keep me aware of what is going on with the horses that I take care of. I don't mind cleaning stalls or pitching in when needed with them but where is the growth? That is where the physical burnout or lack of mental stimulation occures.

Why is it that people think you shouldn't actually be paid for what you love doing. That just makes people want to do it in the first place. But all-in-all, its still working a job. We're not just doing it for fun.

How can you expect a person you don't respect or trust to work out for you?

[Maple Shade]

I think this subject is difficult to discuss because it is too broad. If I'm looking for someone to simply feed, turnout and clean stalls and you are looking for a barn manager position with a big fancy barn then I'm not likely to pay you want you want/need. If you are overqualified for my job that doesn't mean I should pay you more than the job is worth. Stall cleaning with supervision and very little responsibility is only worth so much. Then it becomes a matter of speed. A fast person is worth more per hour than a slow person. As my business grows and expands perhaps you'll be more useful to me and earn more by riding/managing/etc. HOwever, for simple stall cleaning I can't see paying more than $10. Of course, I don't need a full time career stall cleaner so in my case it works and is appropriate. Bottom line is a job is only worth what it is worth. Does it put good employees and employers in a predicament? Yes. Should more responsibility and more skilled labor be worth more? Of course!

[undersaddle]

I work Sunday to Sunday, 7 to 7. No paid time off. No bennies. And no, this is not a "hobby". At least, that's what the IRS says. :p

I am glad it works for you to do that s-s, 7-7, but what happens if you get hurt or sick (god forbid)? Not everyone has the ability or want to be in that situation, be it family or personal, to do that. I love my horses, I love my clients and their horses, but people need a break, both physically and mentally. My fiance is not a horse person and while he supports my decisions to work and be in this field and makes personal sacrifices so I can do what I love. We still have to not only pay bills, but do more than just survive. But working for others and mucking stalls isn't my hobby either.

[suz]

i've given up looking for reliable farm help. for the past several years i've sought a knowledgable horse person to take care of my six horses,four pet goats,a couple of cats and dogs and basically keep the farm maintained well and neat.
i offered a very nice furnished apartment with full cable, wireless computer,all utilities included,etc.. they received 500.00 a week,one week paid after a year and lots of time off as needed. they also had a truck to use,snowmobiles,good tractors and equipment,etc.
my husband and i were dealing with life-threatening illnesses that required us to travel frequently out of town for chemo,et al.
do you think we could find help that wasn't drunk by noon or feeding the animals whatever and whenever they felt like it when we weren't around? nope,ad after ad,interview after interview,,i finally rented the apartment to a woman with her own horse and dog. she now pays for the apartment,walks my dogs with her own while i keep her dog with ours while she works. dogs are happy to live in a pack together,,and she works off her horse board by feeding and mucking when we aren't around. we pay someone else to come in to do the mainatainance stuff we can't get to.
so,now i get income from the apt. and qualified help when i need it. so far so good. having someone who has a vested interest in their own animals well-being makes all the difference in the world.

[Tory Relic]

FINALLY someone who writes what I have been saying for years on this forum! I am so excited to see that I am not the only one who can NOT find good workers! White/black/latino/male/female it doesnt matter! These people do NOT know how to work nor do they care! How much do I get paid and what days off?? The kids of today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay!

If you are out there you hard workers PLEASE step forward! There are A LOT of opportunities out there IF you want to put in your time.

I am not a kid. I would GLADLY work with horses IF: I could make a living wage doing it, afford mortgage and health insurance, and have time for my own horse when the job was done. But I can't find that anywhere, and no, I don't want free rent, I have my own place, I don't want to board my horse there (ditto), and so, in the 80's I quit horses because I couldn't afford rent AND food (no free place provided), and health insurance and owning my own horse was out of the question.

Even now, I work for a traditional employer SOLELY because of affordable and decent health insurance. I have a mortgage and a horse. I even have time for the horse. The only way I'd do horses professionally in what is offered for "help" (not a barn manager), is to own the barn myself.

[ise@ssl]

Undersaddle you stated:
"Its easy for 2, 4, or 8 months to do that everyday because your "learning". Ask someone to put that out everyday for even a year with little time off to wind down or see family and unable to afford anything except for maybe fast food is impossible -That is when burn out occurs. "

The Bereiter who stayed with us had time off to travel into New York City 13 times (stayed with friends in their apartment), also to Washington DC and various horse shows including Dressage at Devon, use of my car, a lovely private room w/bath, all meals, shopping trips for horse clothes/equipment and non horse clothes. Free use of our pool when weather permitted. But in return I never had to clean her room/bathroom, she did her own laundry and kept on top of the barn laundry without being asked, helped with meals/dishes/anything we were doing. And when she wanted time to do things we worked to change the schedule to accomodate her if it was possible. But she was very flexible.

I have young riders come to clinics we sponsor - I'm NAUSEATED by the way they speak to their mother's in public. They have horses to ride, top tack, truck/trailer, you name it and they still seem to have a stick up their butts and attitude all the time.

We all start out in jobs that aren't our CAREER. I wasn't treated like a prima donna at the jobs I had in college or starting out - it's the way it is in the business world. Unfortunately too many young people have been conditioned (by their parents) into believing the world revolves around them and they just have to show up to be paid. I hope their parents have deep pockets to keep these kids forever.

I didn't OWN a car until I was 21. It's rare in Europe foryoung people to own cars - they are extremely comfortable traveling by train, bus or using a bicycle. They seem to EXPECT less when it comes to managing their lives. And they really are more resourceful.

[Trixie]

If all you have to offer is money, there is no incentive. If you have knowledge and advancement to offer, hopefully you can still attract dedicated employees willing to get up early, work late, and sweat like hell.

Personally, I'm looking at my future. I've got a little money saved, for instance, and I would *gladly* persue a career in horses if I felt like I could advance to being able to eventually afford my own farm, etc.
However, people seem to consistently seem to treat barn help like slaves without any hope of moving forward, for minimum wage, because at one point they worked their own butts off, or what-have-you.
I am quite capable of working my butt off and I do it on a consistent basis, because I ride someone else's horses and I take care of her farm as if it were mine (pick fields, etc, leave the barn clean). I would GLADLY do it professionally if my employer made a point to help me plan a *future* in this business, rather then telling me to work harder "because they worked hard."
I'm happy to work hard! But help me grow.

Endless stall mucking in a Virginia winter is not going to make a happy employee if the employee feels no hope of advancing. They're just going to burn out. It's one thing to live on Ramen noodles for a while - but if you want to KEEP your barn help, you've got to keep them happy and well-fed.
Do you want someone who wants a career in this and is willing to work their ass of to advance? Or do you just want someone to muck stalls for minimum wage? They're two very different types of employees.

Why should some snot-nosed college kids in their late teens and early 20's tell ME I have to provide them with a huge salary, benefits and retirement?

Health care is EXPENSIVE - how exactly do you think a barn worker, no insurance, on a few hundred a week, is going to pay for it when one of your horses kicks them in the leg and it breaks, and they need to go to the ER? It's not unreasonable to plan for future rainy days - some people would call it smart.
I suppose it would be better if they had a husband with benefits but we can't be expecting EVERY barn worker to be married to someone who makes the bread and butter, can we?

I'm not saying there aren't some young riders out there who have a great work ethic and understand respect and a team concept but they are like hens teeth to find. But to say you EXPECT good salary, benefits, retirement, etc. - well what are you offering?

Everything I've got, basically. But please stop expecting everyone from a middle class background to suck at working in a barn. I'd work my ass off for the right opportunity because I take pride in what I do. I don't know why you'd hire someone who didn't, unless you want "just a stall mucker."

[ESG]

I am glad it works for you to do that s-s, 7-7, but what happens if you get hurt or sick (god forbid)? Not everyone has the ability or want to be in that situation, be it family or personal, to do that.

Well, isn't that what we're talking about here? That the BOs and FOs should be willing to pay a living wage, plus bennies, plus paid vacations, when it's something we don't have ourselves? Again, my grasp of economics isn't the best, but I need someone to put that down on paper, to show me how it would work.

Also, the S-S, 7-7 gig is what working in the horse business is all about. If you don't want it, better go teach piano lessons or have an office job. No offense to either occupation.


I love my horses, I love my clients and their horses, but people need a break, both physically and mentally. My fiance is not a horse person and while he supports my decisions to work and be in this field and makes personal sacrifices so I can do what I love.
Ahh - you're lucky enough to have one of those, too, eh? Nice, isn't it?


We still have to not only pay bills, but do more than just survive. But working for others and mucking stalls isn't my hobby either.
Neither is it mine - it's part of the business I chose as a career. It's all about choices. If you want to work in the horse business, be prepared for long hours, short pay, and frequent work in inclement weather, whether you're a groom, a BO, or a BNT. Nothing will change that. Horses are expensive, labor intensive beasties, and nothing will change that, either. If this career path isn't for you, then get a degree and get a 9-5 gig that pays well enough so you can pay someone else to do the grunt work and you can enjoy your horse. But don't expect the whole of the business to change, just because you (and not you personally) think you have a God-given right to make what you want, at a job you love. ;)

[ESG]

We all start out in jobs that aren't our CAREER. I wasn't treated like a prima donna at the jobs I had in college or starting out - it's the way it is in the business world. Unfortunately too many young people have been conditioned (by their parents) into believing the world revolves around them and they just have to show up to be paid. I hope their parents have deep pockets to keep these kids forever.


<ESG standing to applaud> Bravo, ise! :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

[ise@ssl]

Well first of all Trixie - when we want someone to train the horses we breed (we have no boarders) they don't have to muck stalls. But if I were interviewing you and read this - I would worry that you wouldn't be willing to take direction - just a personal feeling.

As far as health insurance - do you have any understanding - even a teeny one - that small businesses can't even GET health insurance that isn't going to put them out of business. Do some research on this and you will find that out. The horse industry is considered AGRICULTURE - most insurance companies won't even offer unemployment compensation to Ag industry businesses. I think you would be surprised at how many horse businesses cannot afford health insurance for themselves due to the costs involved.

Big companies in other industries can afford to offer these benefits but it's a choice for people who want to work with horses (or maybe a mental illness that we all have). I have many days when I'm ready to pack it in and go back to working in New York.

And quite honestly if the horse industry has to offer full benefit packages across the board - I hope you gals are prepared for the impact on you keeping your own horse if you don't own your own farm. It will be substantilly higher if not double.

[Trixie]

As far as health insurance - do you have any understanding - even a teeny one - that small businesses can't even GET health insurance that isn't going to put them out of business. Do some research on this and you will find that out. The horse industry is considered AGRICULTURE - most insurance companies won't even offer unemployment compensation to Ag industry businesses. I think you would be surprised at how many horse businesses cannot afford health insurance for themselves due to the costs involved.

I *DO* have an understanding of that - I ran my own business for several years and it was a bitch. But that's why I didn't hire people to work under me with the exception of contract labor - because I couldn't afford to pay them a living wage and benefits, and that wasn't fair to them.

If not health insurance, at least worker's comp. It's awfully depressing to hear barn owners saying their employees should be willing to work, advancing if and only if we tell them they will (ie, they're never supposed to take any initiative regarding their own advancement), for no bennies, no workers comp, and a low wage. And if you get hurt or sick? Oh well.


Well first of all Trixie - when we want someone to train the horses we breed (we have no boarders) they don't have to muck stalls. But if I were interviewing you and read this - I would worry that you wouldn't be willing to take direction - just a personal feeling.

I didn't ask you to hire me. And frankly, I wouldn't. I'm not going to apologize for taking pride in the work I do - as I said "I'd work my ass off for the right opportunity."
I would. I'm quite capable of taking direction. I worked in the service industry, hell, I've photographed weddings (try dealing with a screaming bridezilla in regards to taking direction, they're actually worse then barn owners) - but respect is a mutual thing, and while I'd respect my employers experience either way, I have found that when they respect me as well, I am more comfortable asking questions, and therefore, able to learn more from them.
NOT just being snapped at about "working hard." It's also explaining why.

[ise@ssl]

Not sure where it was written that barn owners don't want people to advance. The problem is most young people want to come in at the TOP! Interesting concept but not reality. And these Equine programs at colleges and universities are for the most part - useless to industry. Compare these programs to the Bereiter programs in Europe and it's like night and day. Even Bereiters don't start out at European barns as the MANAGERS or Top Trainers - they EARN that promotion by proving themselves.

But we can turn this industry on it's ear and demand comparable business benefits that non-horse industries offer but the price of board will probably double and the cost of horses will go up substantially as breeders will have increased costs not only in their breeding business but also in the training of the horses. So what is now an expensive sport will be only for those with lots of money.

[archieflies]

If you can't find good enough help, do it yourself!



I'm with you. If your business cannot afford to pay the "help" enough to live on, then you can't afford to be in business. It works that way with every other business, why should horse people be willing to work for less?

Edited to add, I don't really feel like reading through all 5 pages...

[SBT]

IME...and it is VAST because I've worked at a bunch of different barns, both fancy and ghetto...most BO's DO NOT WANT to pay more for good employees; why hire a 25 year-old with an equine sciences degree for $12 an hour, when you can get an illegal immigrant to do the same work for $6 an hour? Most BO's would rather deal with a huge language barrier, the worker's lack of transportation, and the effort it takes to dodge the IRS.

Horse-crazy teenagers are another source of cheap labor, because they live off their parents' income/insurance and are willing to take minimum wage or work off part of their horse's board.

IME, it's not that "educated" help isn't out there, it's that there's no demand for it! There is virtually no market for REALLY GOOD barn managers, assistant managers, and caretakers because they want a salary and benefits they can actually live on, and there is always someone willing to do it for much less.

IMO, this arguement is kind of like somebody getting p!ssed about their groceries not being bagged properly at the supermarket. HELLO...livable wages are typically not to be had bagging groceries, therefore you will not find a professional bagger. ;) What you WILL find are people whose skills are equal to the pay...so, sometimes the eggs get bagged with the laundry detergent. And obviously this is acceptable to the industry, or else the pay would be more competitive.

Really, if the horse industry DEMANDED great barn workers, there would BE more great barn workers. They aren't out there because they aren't wanted. If they WERE wanted, more barns would offer livable salaries. While good-paying barns exist, they are the minority. And so are the great barn workers. :no:

[TripleRipple]

The reality is that in life, there are Chiefs and there are Indians. We are raising our young people to think that they are all Chiefs. Their time is too valuable to mow lawns or wait tables or muck stalls. I see a lot of young people that drive cars that are more expensive than mine. They don't pay for the car, or the gas, or the insurance. They can't have an afterschool or weekend job because they are too busy pursuing their competitive riding career and their SAT prep courses. I don't blame the young people; I blame their parents. These kids haven't worked a day in their lives for anything!

Someone asked me recently what my secret was, because I must say that I have raised a great kid- she's self motivated, hard working, good student, great rider. (She's on the way home as we speak to participate in the Breast Cancer 3 day walk) You know what the answer is? I didn't raise her like a rich kid. I raised her like a poor kid. She knows how to work. And she likes to do for herself.

Look, and you guys that blast the employers for not wanting to pay: There are economics at play here. I'd love to pay my workers generously and give them bonuses and perks. But on the other end, which boarders are willing to pay $100 more per month to fund that? You cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. And that's what you people would understand if you had my experience!

Off my soap box now....

Too true. We have two kinds of kids available for hire here - those raised rich (of those, only a low % of them are indeed truly rich; the others are pretend-rich, but it ends up with the same attitude issues, at least until the bankruptcy occurs and reality sets in...but I digress) and the hard working ranch kids. And with a construction boom here, they go for the bigger dollars they get there, and I can't fault them for that.

So that is the choice. It is hard to justify paying $40-60 per hour (construction rates/"chief" rates) for someone to unload square bales or pick out a paddock. We put the money instead into "mechanical" workers like tractors and the like, have switched to large bales, horses are outside now (and like it better) and plan to build a huge storage barn for hay and equipment (which will just appreciate like the rest, so no loss there either).

Yes, initially paying more to streamline things; however, like other moves we've made, it is far more convenient and easier in a way than hiring nowdays. I can do that - I only have 6 horses and no boarders or lesson takers. Just my hobby. I do feel for people who are doing this for a living or are getting older like us and cannot afford the "mechanical" workers. It is hard, but horses are a choice. If I didn't already have mine, I don't think I would do it now.

Horses have a limited future given what is happening everywhere - I find that really sad, but fear it is the way it will go.

[fiona]

The bottom line is

you can't have poor customers

and we all have to accept that horses are a luxury item - even if you have your own land and expertise.

[Thomas_1]

You are running a business. If you would like to avoid the hassles of running a business, stop running said business.

If I open a hardware store, I'm not allowed to whine this much. If I start an internet start-up, I'm not allowed to whine this much. Why did you start a business if you don't want to run one?

It isn't a horse career with a few details thrown in, it is a business where the product/service/client happens to be horses. No different than a spa or B&B, except for who walks in the door. You want a life with horses and none of this business crap in the way? Get rid of your business and try being an employee. For someone else. Who feels the same way you do. THEN you come back here and post how thrilled you are at getting paid jack.

Excellent posting.

I was in the company of someone bitching and moaning about not being able to get good grooms and riding instructors last week. They are located just 20 miles from me and its not something I've ever had a problem with.

However if you pay peanuts you get monkeys!

If you properly reward and train staff then you get good staff and you have to factor that into your operating costs and business plan and ensure your pricing policy reflects the need to make a profit and pay competent, professional staff.

I'd suggest that rather than complaining about the shortage of good staff that it would be a better strategy to think about what you are doing so wrong that is making it difficult for you to attract and retain good staff.

[fvw]

Wow! I never realized how varied the aspect of "barn staff" wages are. I guess a lot of it has to do with location, location, location. As a riding school (not a fancy show barn) we feel that we pay fairly well in this industry, compared to a lot of other barns in this area, and I think it really helps to have good incentives to keep good staff.

For regular barn staff we pay; $10 an hour and you work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, starting at 7am. (is this not reasonable?)

perks are; free board for 1 horse, free lessons, free trailering to shows, and a Xmas bonus.

We also have several young working students who do turn in and night feed and some weekend hours in exchange for free lessons or half board. Most of the parents can't afford to pay for lessons or extras, but do everything they can to support their kids dedication. We even have parents(including single moms/dads) come in and volunteer their time to help with the other never ending jobs that require constant attention, ie; painting jumps, painting/repairing fences, clean -up, or pulling weeds!!....or bringing mounds of food and beverages for everyone and setting up a tent and chairs at the local schooling shows to show support to the barn. We REALLY appreciate the TEAM effort!!!

Don't even think about telling BO's to raise their rates so they can pay you more ......and yes most people don't have a clue as to how very expensive it is to run a barn unless you've actually run your own facility. If you do raise the rates.....it's guaranteed that some clients will move to a cheaper competitve barn down the road so that is not an option unless you want to lay off staff.

The only living we make is through lessons and training and you need to do it 14 hours a day 6 days a week to make ends meet. Believe you me when I say......."We are not in this for the money.....but because we love what we do". :yes:

ps; I can understand employees who get upset when it's a private barn with owners own horses......(and I also have first hand knowledge on this).....if you don't have time to look after your own horses and need to hire good help.....BO's...think about what you would want to be paid if the roles were reversed for the hard work you know it takes to look after the horses properly, and that was the only income you had......and also think of the peace of mind you get when you know the person you hired is reliable, knows what they are doing and does a great job!

You know the saying...."You get what you pay for!"

[equusrocks]

fvw, that sounds great!! Wish I was looking, wish you were hiring!!! :lol:

[fvw]

Yeah, we rarely get any turnover in our staff and we are quite the large happy family with 30+ horses and "family".......even if we are all poor!! :D

[equusrocks]

Sounds like you are doing things right in the eyes of your employees...In looking for a job, I always ask about turnover rates. If they're high (unless seasonal work)...well, I usually choose to pass anyway. It's hard to leave a satisfying job! :yes: I think the potential employer needs to sell themselves as much as the potential employee. (I've been at current job for 3 years now...and counting. I can't seem to leave a decent paycheck with perks and a great boss/co-workers)

[Parysa]

i've given up looking for reliable farm help. for the past several years i've sought a knowledgable horse person to take care of my six horses,four pet goats,a couple of cats and dogs and basically keep the farm maintained well and neat.
i offered a very nice furnished apartment with full cable, wireless computer,all utilities included,etc.. they received 500.00 a week,one week paid after a year and lots of time off as needed. they also had a truck to use,snowmobiles,good tractors and equipment,etc.
Dang, want to move to Alabama??? I'll work for you! :D

I have young riders come to clinics we sponsor - I'm NAUSEATED by the way they speak to their mother's in public. They have horses to ride, top tack, truck/trailer, you name it and they still seem to have a stick up their butts and attitude all the time.... Unfortunately too many young people have been conditioned (by their parents) into believing the world revolves around them and they just have to show up to be paid. I hope their parents have deep pockets to keep these kids forever.
And this is why, if ever I am rich, my son will never be raised like we're rich. I grew up poor, dirt poor. I didn't have horses and only ever got a few lessons which my father (parents were divorced) got me as b/day or Christmas presents. The two horses I have owned, I worked my ass off for. My parents paid NOTHING on my first horse. I worked from the time I got home from school till 11 at night at BK for a horse that I could barely handle due to psychological issues (his, not mine--tho I do have them, lol) and was thrilled that I at least had a horse, whether he was psycho or not.
IME, it's not that "educated" help isn't out there, it's that there's no demand for it! There is virtually no market for REALLY GOOD barn managers, assistant managers, and caretakers because they want a salary and benefits they can actually live on, and there is always someone willing to do it for much less.
As far as BMs, etc, there's also not much of a demand b/c there aren't really that many positions available. They generally only need one person for that job, possibly two, and those slots are already filled most of the time.
For regular barn staff we pay; $10 an hour and you work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, starting at 7am. (is this not reasonable?)
perks are; free board for 1 horse, free lessons, free trailering to shows, and a Xmas bonus.
I wish all you guys who DO pay well and/or give great perks were in my area! Or that we were staying close to Maple Shade. :D

[Jsalem]

I've really enjoyed this thread- thanks everybody!

I've been doing this professionally for 20 years. I have a college education. I'm married to a wonderful, supportive man who is a firefighter with benefits for the whole family.

I make a good salary now. I drive a nice car and have recently purchased a new truck and trailer for the business. The farm I lease is absolutely beautiful. Am I doing well? YES!!!

But.... I work very long hours. I still muck stalls. I usually work 7 days a week when we show. I'm the first one there and the last to leave. I have a crushing amount of responsibility to the horses in my care. I get calls after hours from needy clients and about sick horses.

I don't get paid vacations. I don't get health care because my husband provides that. I just work my ass off. I love, love, love my job.

I have paid my dues and I've figured out how to carve a living out of this difficult business that I love. I challenge the young people out there to do the same! I have a young, married assistant that is beginning her career. She is very bright and motivated and I'm really excited about her. My daughter will probably work for me. She is a worker and I'm excited about her. It can be done, people. But not unless you're a worker.

[Trakehner]

[QUOTE=AC & Ty;1942039]But could the mentally handicapped bandage, run an IV, give shots, diagnose lameness, recognize colic, deal with boarders and clients, set up vet/farrier appts and speak and UNDERSTAND the vets diagnosis, shavings and hay deliveries, etc???????? HELL NO.

So what? That's what the barn manager is for. Your regular barn worker/mucker etc. doesn't do any of these things. I don't want my barn manager running an IV. I set up my own vet and farrier appointments and am there when the vet comes for emergencies (and most owners are capable of understanding big words the vets might say).

Stables aren't short on Chiefs, they're short on indians.

[Jsalem]

Well said, Trak!

[Sannois]

i've given up looking for reliable farm help. for the past several years i've sought a knowledgable horse person to take care of my six horses,four pet goats,a couple of cats and dogs and basically keep the farm maintained well and neat.
i offered a very nice furnished apartment with full cable, wireless computer,all utilities included,etc.. they received 500.00 a week,one week paid after a year and lots of time off as needed. they also had a truck to use,snowmobiles,good tractors and equipment,etc.
my husband and i were dealing with life-threatening illnesses that required us to travel frequently out of town for chemo,et al.
do you think we could find help that wasn't drunk by noon or feeding the animals whatever and whenever they felt like it when we weren't around? nope,ad after ad,interview after interview,,i finally rented the apartment to a woman with her own horse and dog. she now pays for the apartment,walks my dogs with her own while i keep her dog with ours while she works. dogs are happy to live in a pack together,,and she works off her horse board by feeding and mucking when we aren't around. we pay someone else to come in to do the mainatainance stuff we can't get to.
so,now i get income from the apt. and qualified help when i need it. so far so good. having someone who has a vested interest in their own animals well-being makes all the difference in the world.
That would have been the most awesome job for me a year ago! ITs amazing that there are so few responsible people Your offer was amazing.
Hope you are well !

:yes:

[Angela Freda]

Stables aren't short on Chiefs, they're short on indians.

And who and for how long do you expect people to be indians? It's natural for anyone with a iota of maturity, and drive (not to mention talent and skills) to aspire to something more.
Sadly right now (for the individual and for the industry) that 'more' means they have to leave the horse industry, or hope for that one in a million chief position that covers the American Dream, or their personal version of it.

My worry? That we are micro-focusing on too few people in the horse sports... there are a handful of opportunities for a handful of lucky of people. Why put so few eggs in your basket?

[Jsalem]

I think we've identified the crux of the problem here. We need more Indians. We need muckers, feeders, turner outers, mowers. We cannot provide a huge income for these entry level workers. But we need them. These are the postions that used to be filled by teenagers needing spending money or free lessons. Or moms needing to earn a few dollars when the kids were in school. Where are they?

Some of these folks moved on. Some of them moved up. But there was a steady stream of them when I was a kid. Personally, I think the problem is that our children are being raised to believe that they are too good, at 16 years old, to do menial labor for a year or two. They are all chiefs in training.

[Penthilisea]

I have a circular agreument/issue here. I have a horse, boarded. I have a horsey job. I don't make enough at horsey job, so can't pay the extra $25 a month or wehatever to raise the average wage in my area to get myself a raise so I can pay more board.... See? Thats why I am getting out of horses as a living. I'll find a job paying actual money, so I can afford to pay the board raises, and feed money back into the system for better well paid workers. I hope.

[Trakehner]

Where I board (in the wilds of Maryland) I suggested to a friend he might look at the barn to see about a job. He'd retired and really didn't need lots of money...he liked to work.

Well, he has a college degree, his dad had a breeding farm and he's dependable as all get out...he didn't take the job.

Here's what they demanded for $11/hour...he'd work 6 days a week, start at 5:30, always have to carry a walkie-talkie for instant messaging and control, some weeks he'd work 7 days...only 30 minutes for lunch, no board for horses or any other benefits...no use of barn horses to ride...and all mucking/shavings etc. are done by hand/wheelbarrow...no tractor for hauling.

Welcome to the 1930's....and my barn wonders why they can't keep employees.

[siseley]

:yes: :yes: :yes:

Trakener...
You discribed the situation I was in for a time. I am 60, have had two back surguries, and can't seem to find work in my field for which I am trained. Sooo... I took a part time job working for a HUGE barn with 82 stalls!! I was expected to muck, and clean all the stalls in 8 hrs, had a 30 minute lunch break, and feed the horses before and after I did the mucking. All that for $8:00 per hr. No bennies, no board, ( not even in the question), no vehicle allowance for chasing errands, and holding for the vet and farrier. Was I used? Yep! and when I hurt myself trying to buck hay to the top of the truck bed, I was told they don't need me as I can't do anything else. Know what? I have had horses since I was a teenybopper, and still have two. One is a great ole boy of 27, who can, and does, do anything I ask, and my 6 yr old Arab Mare, who is the light of my horsey life. I have trained these two, sat up with a bout of colic, fed, watered, and cleaned for them for years and still was not useful? Baloney!! Folks, get a grip! There are lots of people who have useful talents, but if you are going to expect them to use their brains and talent, COMPENSATE them!

I would love to make $10:00 an hour and use some of my talent. But a "Mucker/slave" is all I was worth?

Baloney!!

Steve, on the cute grey Arab..

[Linny]

The issue in the horse world is that there are only so many places to "move up" to. In a big company you can start at the bottom and progress as there are many layers of business. Most barns I know of have a BO and BM both of whom may be trainers/pros/intructors. There may be a bookkeeper/office person and maybe a few other instructors if there is a lesson program. Other than that, there are indians, aka laborers. Sure, a few of the indians are hoping to be a chief some day but most are just hoping for a $1/hr raise or a Christmas bonus or paid day off now and then.
Honestly, how many barns would even consider asking the mucker if they have any interest in teaching lessons after the "up-down" instructor quits?

[Flameborne]

It's really easy to sit up there with your own farm and business and think that people should just be willing to "work harder" for you. But it's a hell of a lot more difficult to feel all peaches and cream about a job that pays SIGNIFICANTLY less than the cost of living when you are trying to decide between paying your student loan or your car payment this month. :no:

I think this is the big issue. You (and others who've responded in the same vein) choose NOT to work in a barn at a rate you feel is inappropriate for your needs / experience. What I hear, predominantly, is folks who AGREE to the job, and then don't want to do it, or don't do it, for whatever reason.

Don't take the job if it doesn't interest you. If you TAKE the job... WORK. Nine times out of then the job expectations are included in the initial interview. Now, if those expectations change, then by all means we have a different story as that's different than what was initially agreed upon.

[SBT]

Nine times out of then the job expectations are included in the initial interview. Now, if those expectations change, then by all means we have a different story as that's different than what was initially agreed upon.

And I'd say that nine times out of ten, the expectations DO change (read: INCREASE), but the pay does not. :no: If I had one dollar for every unpaid hour I've worked over the years at various barns, I'd have quite the nest egg. I don't think it's unreasonable for staff to come early and/or stay late when the need arises, but those extra hours should be PAID...not automatically considered "part of the job." :no:

[PiedPiper]

Asolutely SBT!

In any other job someone paid hourly is paid, by law, for every hour worked. There are no added hours that aren't covered. This is done for compliance of Federal Law.

Sorry, I ran a barn and if you profit margin is too small to pay well then you do the work yourself. There is no reason for slave labor for "experience" and such nonsense.

And this idea that kids nowadays are "lazier", which is quite amusing since every generation as said that about the younger one since the dawn of time, may have to do with the level of pressure which is on them to succeed at earlier and earlier ages. It is not enough to do halfway decent in school and get into a school. It wasn't taht long ago that colleges admitted students if they were just from the same state, GPAs weren't that important. Now everything is highly competitive, you have to score quite well on your SATs, GPA has to be up there, you have to show you are very well rounded by plenty of extracurricular activities, etc. Many kids don't have time to be kids anymore let alone hang out for hours at a barn.

You want kids for cheaper labor then be willing to try and set up an internship for equine studies so kids get class credit. Yes there will be more required on your part but you save on the pay.

Bottomline, this business should not be any more "special" than any other venture. And as others have stated, if you are a good person to work for you will have people who stay. If you are high maintenance, fickle on job requirements, hard to work with/talk to, and expect your employees to treat this business as if it was their own as well, . . . . well expect higher turn over.

There are just too many people in the horse business that no next to nothing about running a business. A class or two on running a home business, accounting, HR should be a requirement.

[Jsalem]

Yes, we are expecting more and more from our young people to get into college. IMO, they have way too much homework, they have way too much pressure to perform in every subject, there is too much emphasis placed on getting into the right college. Again, IMO, it doesn't really matter if little Jane goes to Brown or if she goes to a smaller, less well-known local college (in many cases and for the average student). What matters is that we raise responsible, happy, productive good citizens for the next generation. And we return to the original point of this thread---

We are not teaching our young people about work ethic. We are teaching them to demand benefits and overtime and advancement. That's tough in our industry, which after all is an agricultural one. And this is why many of the "Indian" jobs (mucker, groom) are going to immigrants now. They are still willing to work for $10 an hour, 6 days a week and some benefits (xmas bonus, 1 week's paid holiday per year).

I understand the points made in above posts. And the bottom line is this: if I cannot fill my positions for the wages that are doable in my current budget, why, I'll pay what I have to pay. But I am a good business person. Those increases will be reflected in the board I charge. When the average person can no longer afford to board, they can just take their horses home. And then they'll understand work ethic.

[ESG]

<snip>
We are not teaching our young people about work ethic. We are teaching them to demand benefits and overtime and advancement. That's tough in our industry, which after all is an agricultural one. And this is why many of the "Indian" jobs (mucker, groom) are going to immigrants now. They are still willing to work for $10 an hour, 6 days a week and some benefits (xmas bonus, 1 week's paid holiday per year).

Yep. :yes:

I understand the points made in above posts. And the bottom line is this: if I cannot fill my positions for the wages that are doable in my current budget, why, I'll pay what I have to pay. But I am a good business person. Those increases will be reflected in the board I charge. When the average person can no longer afford to board, they can just take their horses home. And then they'll understand work ethic.

Thank you. :)

The problem, as I see it, is that those demanding higher wages, benefits, etc in this discussion, are trying to apply corporate standards to an agrarian business. You can't do it. Try going to any Kansas wheatfield farmer, or Florida orange grove owner, and telling them that you'll only work if you can have the package y'all have been screaming we barn owners should give our workers. You'll probably have to call 911, because both will laugh themselves into apoplectic fits. This is no different. ;)

[ise@ssl]

Angel-Freda - how long someone is an Indian depends on the person. Some people will never be Chiefs - it's just the way it works out. We don't expect people who have ability and intelligence and desire to stay at an entry level position. What we do expect is for people to put in 100% at the job they hold at any point in time. Expecting someone to show up on time, not take time off constantly, call if they aren't coming or are late, fail to follow the procedures set up in the barn, dress APPROPRIATELY - and finish what they are told to do and have a positive and respectful attitude -isn't asking them to become slaves. Alot of this is just BASIC COMMON COURTESY.

We aren't a boarding farm so there are no issues of boarders to deal with. We can offer someone an opportunity to learn the breeding business - top to bottom, training methods used in Germany, clinics with top trainers from Germany and an opportunity to earn commissions on horses sold. I'm finding we have conditioned young riders to focus on RIDING & SHOWING their own horses only.

If someone feels they are a Chief - well do what we were told in the business world - don't dress or act or perform at the level of the job you hold - dress, act, perform at the level of the job you WANT TO BE HOLDING.

Pied Piper - I don't know how old you are but what you are saying about college/university issues is just plain HOOEY. I'm 55 years old - In 1969 when I graduated from high school the pressure was very high for college entrance unless you wanted to head to a state college program at a local satellite location or a community college. Board scores - 1200 total was the goal for college entrance.

The reality of pressure on students today to get into college is the fact that a large percentage - my opinion about 40% - SHOULDN'T EVEN BE GOING TO COLLEGE. They end up getting up their neck in debt and coming out with a degree worth NOTHING in some idiotic major. As I've said before financially this is like buying junk bonds - they aren't worth anything. They could have taken that money invested in a trade or business and made something of their lives. Instead they graduate with a degree that DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AVOCATION. They have to continue to live off their parents - while demanding a lifestyle which includes a car, cell phone, travel, lots of clothes and spending money. DO THE MATH - IT DOESN'T WORK. Then these same graduates DEMAND good paying jobs, super benefits, etc. etc. WELL - WAKE UP! Super Benefits and Retirement plans aren't something that many of us had for a good part of our working jobs in PROFESSIONAL POSITIONS! Doesn't anyone have any idea of the history of labor in this country?

I hear young people - even those who do get great jobs whining about the hours. When I started in positons after Business School - I HAD NO LIFE BUT MY JOB AND COMING HOME TO EAT DINNER WITH MY HUSBAND. Trying to coordinate our two weeks vacation together was usually IMPOSSIBLE. We both had jobs that demanded travel - so for everyone whining about not being paid for every single minute worked - take a SALARIED JOB and find out how many hours you really have to put in sometimes. And business travel is NOT glamorous - nor some paid vacation.

All this constant whining is ridiculous. If you DON'T get what you want from a job in this industry - look for a job in another industry. If you find you CAN'T - well it's time to take a good hard look at what you have to offer and how you plan to support yourself into the future. It's not society's responsibility to find you a profession, nor guarantee all these benefits.

[Jsalem]

That's right. And we seem to be raising our American children to poo-poo honest labor in favor of the corporate world. Honestly, not all these kids are scholars. Perhaps if "labor" were a part of their upbringing, it would be a good thing. Some young people might be happy staying in that kind of job, many wouldn't. But some experience "working" would help.

I can't tell you how many of my students get sent off to college with no real-life skills. They've never earned their own money or managed a checking account or mucked a stall. Their parents have been so dedicated to the notion of getting them into a great college, they haven't seen the forest for the trees. The kids go off to college to party- it's scary.

[grace_herself]

Yep. :yes:



Thank you. :)

The problem, as I see it, is that those demanding higher wages, benefits, etc in this discussion, are trying to apply corporate standards to an agrarian business. You can't do it. Try going to any Kansas wheatfield farmer, or Florida orange grove owner, and telling them that you'll only work if you can have the package y'all have been screaming we barn owners should give our workers. You'll probably have to call 911, because both will laugh themselves into apoplectic fits. This is no different. ;)

while this may be true, i have to point out that no one really has mentioned the risks involved with this kind of work. i watched the tobacco farm behind the horse farm i worked at this summer get picked a few times ( they do it by leaf row) and i did notice that not a single one of the employees looked like anything but migrant farm workers, NOT that i personally have an issue with that, but here IS my point, yes, they prolly worked long hours, and yes, they prolly didn't make great pay. but i doubt highly that there was a whole lot of risk involved, they wern't running machines or anything, or working with large animals.
now, in the horse industry, i work with large animals on a daily basis. no matter how many precautions i seem to take (with the exception of wrapping myself in bubble wrap) i get hurt occasionally. i have had multiple broken fingers, so many broken toes i wont wear sandals in public, broke something in my right foot when a large pony spooked and stomped on it, i have had SERIOUS internal injuries (won a free trip in the helicopter for that one !!) a head injury that three years later i'm still recovering from, but the dr said is probably the best it will ever be by now, so embarrassing when i can't remember my own phone number or addy, and most recently, a tailbone injury, due to the unsafe behavior of co-workers.
now, most times i've worked with horses, i got NO insurance, no workmans comp, and had to sign a liability release form, stating i knew it was dangerous and wouldn't sue. good thing i already had awsome insurance, but the downfall was that i was hurt and couldn't do my job, and lost a paycheck.
the truth is, we barn workers put in long hours, for little pay most often, and don't get bennies usually.
also, as the BM of a small barn, 12 stalls, we have only 15 horses here, i do ALL the mucking, all the repairs that don't require special knowledge, all the feeding, mucking, cleaning the barn, all the paperwork, all the phone calls, stand with the vets, farriers, and EVERYTHING that needs to be done. the boarders feel free to call me 24/7, i get no days off, no "hazard" pay and no paid vacation.
and someone in another post said you don't need to tip us at christmas because you wouldn't tip your plumber at christmas? i wonder, does he get up to see if your pipes have air in them in the middle of the night at no extra charge? or walk your septic tank, cuz it sounded gassy? for free?
however, i continue to do it because it is what i LOVE to do.

now, on the subject of hiring teens, or getting them to help for free, in return for barn bennies, oh gosh, puhleese, do NOT do me any favors !! i worked with a 14 year old boy this summer (previous job, not the one i have now) that made my life hell !! he made every day take longer than it should have, argued with me, disrespected me, refused to abide by my safety rules, was rude to boarders, and and didn't do his job properly, not even close. on my days off, i had to come in and water horses because he didn't do it, sometimes, i would even have to feed, because he'd forget. i wasnt allowed to fire him, trust me, i begged to. i'm sure not all teens are like that, but my point is, that when you don't pay cash, and a reasonable amount, your not likely to get much dedication in an employee, unless they do it because THEY LOVE WHAT THEY DO.

[ESG]

Of course there's risk. There's risk every time you pull a horse out of a stall to groom it. There's risk every time you plunk your hindparts in a saddle. So what? That's not what we're talking about here. Want hazard pay? Join the Army - I hear they're looking. :winkgrin: Go get to be an EMT and still only make $18/hour. Talk about risk! :eek:

[Albion]

And we seem to be raising our American children to poo-poo honest labor in favor of the corporate world.

And this is different from most modern countries ... how? Most people WANT their children to grow up to make money, have a high standard of living, health insurance, etc. And one hardly needs to be a 'scholar' to get into business. Many undergraduate business majors I've come across get rid of that theory pretty quickly. :rolleyes: Yes, plenty of modern American teens are pretty awful people - but this discussion takes place in EVERY generation ("When I was a kid, we NEVER acted like these youngsters today ...") and has been going on for thousands of years. Some people DO expect a free ride (see those business majors in college expecting to get out with their BA & then magically get a a cushy corporate job - at least those of us in the humanities know we have years of hard work & practical slave labor in the ivory tower before we even have a CHANCE at one of those elusive & low paying positions!). However, it's not HS kids fault the system has evolved the way it has. Hell, a bachelor's hardly means anything anymore.

But if y'all think the American educational system is stressful, I suggest coming to Asia. :eek:

I had jobs during HS; I took care of my pony myself; I know full well the value of a dollar. One reason I never even CONSIDERED a career in horses. I may be a starving academic at some point in the future, but I'll be a starving academic with health insurance, thank you.

[fullmoon fever]

Or moms needing to earn a few dollars when the kids were in school. Where are they?

When I need a mucker, this is what I looked for. Unfortunately, as much as they might love the job (and I also paid $10/hr. cash over 2 years ago), they are not reliable. Of course I understand that their sick kids come first! I now have a SO who does the work and I work at a job that allows us to live moderately well w/o having to deal with barn help issues.

Fifteen (plus) years ago, I offered the following for PART-TIME, live-in staff:

2 bedroom single wide, board for one horse, utilities (except propane for heat), no problems with their pets (1 dog, 3 cats). (Rent, at that time, in this area would have been $650/mo. and board was around $250. Toss in utilities and they were getting about $1000/mo. value for 20/hrs. (or less) per week).

This was for Mon-Fri, four hours per day. (Their option to start anytime between 7 and 9 a.m.) It was a couple where the wife would be feeding, turning out and mucking for 12 horses. She was a "professional" who was able to easily do the job in 4 hours or less. She was then free to have a part-time "paying" job afterwards. The husband worked two jobs and was socking $ away in bonds to ensure they would be able to buy their own place in a few years. They lasted less than six months. :(

[Trixie]

Did y'all have to walk 5 miles to school, uphill in the snow, both ways?

I suppose it is both a miracle and a problem that we have set up the education system so that just about everyone has access to an education. Every generation has tried to make it better for the next generation, then is quick to call them as lazy.

As someone said, extracurriculars for your average kid are insane. My sister, who has quite a decent little work ethic, plays basketball, soccer, softball, and the viola. She also attends sunday school and makes good grades. Unfortunately, instead of focusing on one thing to be good at, everyone seems to have zillions that they're marginally decent at.

A lot of these kids you're quick to say "never worked a day in their lives" work their butts off - it's just that the work is quite different. Yes, it bodes badly for the horse industry. Maybe we need to make some adjustments.

It's funny - a lot of things change with the times. But barn owners have to be willing to change with them. Otherwise, you will be paying migrant laborers forever, and hoping to god they can tell you when a horse is colicking, because no one these days is going to work in the kind of conditions offered just because that's how it's always been done before. Also, as someone stated, in the corporate world, there are zillions of different things that you can advance to - assistant director, director, vice president, etc. In the horse world, these things are limited, and the pay scale is somewhat limited as well.


Want hazard pay? Join the Army

The army has a lot of risks but they are quick to offer benefits. Granted, most barns aren't like walking into a war zone every day, but it's more likely that you'll be hurt, maimed, or killed working with horses then you would doing most other manual-labor tasks.
Of course, putting it like that will really make your workers feel valued. I do not want to live every day in fear of what would happen if I got hurt. It is COMMON SENSE to have a PLAN - yet, it seems that all of these barn owners are suggesting I do it all "by the seat of my pants." Sorry, but I would like to see to it that I am not shipped back to my mother in a zillion pieces for her to deal with.
As an adult, indian or chief, we still need to feel some sense of security here. At the very least, that I won't need to declare bankruptcy if I break an arm.

[Jsalem]

Yes, most parents want their children to grow up and make lots of money and have a high standard of living. Unfortunately, they aren't teaching these children to have a good work ethic: to be reliable, trustworthy, nose-to-the-grindstone, workers. In our industry we call these folks stable hands or muckers or whatever. Ms. Schoellkopf was bemoaning the fact that many of the workers she sees want to skip those entry level responsibilities and start on top.

[Trixie]

2 bedroom single wide, board for one horse, utilities (except propane for heat), no problems with their pets (1 dog, 3 cats). (Rent, at that time, in this area would have been $650/mo. and board was around $250. Toss in utilities and they were getting about $1000/mo. value for 20/hrs. (or less) per week).

This was for Mon-Fri, four hours per day. (Their option to start anytime between 7 and 9 a.m.) It was a couple where the wife would be feeding, turning out and mucking for 12 horses. She was a "professional" who was able to easily do the job in 4 hours or less. She was then free to have a part-time "paying" job afterwards. The husband worked two jobs and was socking $ away in bonds to ensure they would be able to buy their own place in a few years. They lasted less than six months.

I'd *love* to have a position like this. The trouble with most barn positions is that they leave no chance to supplement the small income whatsoever (It's not like you can work at the barn 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. and then go bartend after for extra cash, the barn work is just too draining).

[grace_herself]

Of course there's risk. There's risk every time you pull a horse out of a stall to groom it. There's risk every time you plunk your hindparts in a saddle. So what? That's not what we're talking about here. Want hazard pay? Join the Army - I hear they're looking. :winkgrin: Go get to be an EMT and still only make $18/hour. Talk about risk! :eek:

well actually, we WERE talking about stable help, and what they do, don't get paid, and how well most stablehands worth ethics are. just for the record, i WAS an emt for years, and i DIDNT make 18 dollars an hour, i made a 300 dollar a week salary, for 30 hours office time, and almost 24/7 on call time. i did that because i loved it too, as it was a high risk job, not high pay, and long hours.

my ex-husband got hazard pay working at a wood mill, during shut down cleaning, he made 8 dollars an hour WITH the hazard pay. i wasn't saying that BM should get it, i was just pointing out that we don't.

also, while so many BO's complain that they can't find good help, i keep hearing so many barn employes and managers complain that they arn't appreciated. it's a two way street. BM's and barn employees should do their job well, and BO's should appreciate a job well done.

[siegi b.]

As someone who has had both, great and not so great barn help, one thing I have noticed is that the folks that do this stuff full-time also seem to be more transient. The best help I ever had was a guy who had lots of horse experience driving a coach at one of the WVa resorts and had a full-time job at a company in a nearby town. At that time I only needed part-time help to feed and bring in/turn out and then do stalls in the afternoon because my work schedule was quite erratic with lots of business travel. I believe this man was with me for over 5 years and only left because he managed to buy a house quite far away and just couldn't fit the horse work into his schedule anymore. I think we both just about cried when he left....

I did not pay him by the hour, but by the job, so it was up to him to decide how much time to take doing it. And that also included the times when the horses were out 24 hrs a day which weren't that many. I also paid him another month's wages at Christmas time as well as a significant bonus on his birthday.

I've also had a person live in an apartment that I provided (brand-new), paid wages including social security and disability, and within 5 months he got all upset because he decided he wanted to be the trainer for my young horses and after giving him an opportunity to show me what he knew, I wouldn't go along with it. He actually called me in my house and SCREAMED at me for not giving him the opportunity. Needless to say, that was the end of that situation.

And then there was this couple that charged by the stall, except when a horse in their opinion was messy, then they would charge double. And on, and on, and on.....

I'm doing my own stuff now and while it ties me to the place and doesn't allow any vacation time with my husband, it hasn't been a problem yet. It would be nice to be able to find somebody experienced with mares and foals though because I'm starting to miss being able to go places once or twice a year. :-)

[hb]

... what you are complaining about is market economics. You aren't paying enough to get quality workers.

...It is proven over and over again that people are not motivated by money and can get along on very little if there are other things in the job that they love. The problem is with you the employer, always.

I'm confused here. If it is proven that people are not motivated by money then how could not paying enough be the problem?


I keep my horses at home and thank goodness don't have to hire workers. However, the problems of finding and keeping good workers does affect me in my job. We have a very difficult time finding anyone who will work hard at an entry level job. These entry level jobs are office jobs, full time, about $15/hour, with full benefits including paid medical and an company contributions to the 401(k). They are also not dead-end positions - for the right person there is a great career path and on-the-job training. It's they type of job I started in 20+ years ago and I was able to work my way up to a vp position.

The problem is the people in their early to mid twenties that we hire don't want to do the "grunt work", they find it demeaning to do administrative work that supports other people. They also look at people 10 to 15 years older than they are, with 10 to 15 years more experience, and complain that they are not paid as much as those people. One girl actually told me that when she was in college she just assumed that she would be making over $100,000/year in her first job after graduating, and was very frustrated this had not happened.

Another girl complained to me because the people she supported made it obvious they did not feel she was dependable. Well, for a couple of months she would call in at least one day every couple of weeks, not ill, but either tired from staying out too late the night before, or "too stressed" and needing a mental health day. When her manager tried to talk to her about this, she said "we get sick days, I thought we were supposed to use them". She didn't shape up until another girl who abused the time-off even worse than she did actually got fired.

I've observed this for about the last 5 years. Prior to that this behaviour was pretty much unheard of. I think we've raised a generation with awfully high expectations, and they seem pretty disappointed in reality.

[buryinghill4]

The horse industry pays too little for too much. Yes it's fun to hang out with the horsies, but where will you be in 5, 10, 15 years?

With a high school diploma (or GED) a worker could go to UPS and toss packages (M-F night shift) for $12 - $14 an hour - right now! Teamster benefits (best in the world I think). Education reimbursement, super retirement packages, etc. etc. (You could do the same for FedEx, but have no union representation). Same physical labor, but a worker has the chance to advance. Every year you have the chance to advance - drive, supervise loading, maybe become a shift supervisor or administration. Heck, loaders I know who didn't want to learn to drive became supervisors and those folks make a TON of money ($75K and up). So much money that they could buy a nice house, put their kids through college... buy horses and board 'em. How nice to have a vested interest in the company!

How do you advance when you work in a barn? The super-juniors get the riding jobs. I can name maybe 5 US Grand Prix level showjumping riders who started out as barn help and became successful business folks. Even if a barn worker might one day run a business, where does he/she learn managerial, financial, and necessary social skills?

Even the health industry has more to offer than the horse world. Outstanding opportunities. Our local hospital pays full benefits, and college tuition (employee and family). I should think minimum wage employees would find that more attractive than barn work - with no or few benefits.

Interesting thread.
Drive a truck. ;)

[Sannois]

That's right. And we seem to be raising our American children to poo-poo honest labor in favor of the corporate world. Honestly, not all these kids are scholars. Perhaps if "labor" were a part of their upbringing, it would be a good thing. Some young people might be happy staying in that kind of job, many wouldn't. But some experience "working" would help.

I can't tell you how many of my students get sent off to college with no real-life skills. They've never earned their own money or managed a checking account or mucked a stall. Their parents have been so dedicated to the notion of getting them into a great college, they haven't seen the forest for the trees. The kids go off to college to party- it's scary.
Work seems to be a 4 letter word to some kids. They have no clue about making a living, Plastic and parents and thats the only way some know.

:no:

[Jsalem]

I think it's pretty clear that folks don't choose to apply for a job in a barn just for the $$. To folks like myself, money isn't everything.

Some people love horses, love being around horses. They'd rather work for a few dollars less doing something they enjoy. I don't think the point of the article is whether the workers are adequately compensated compared to the business world. The point is that folks think, hey I'd like to work around horses, but I don't want to have to commit to watering ALL the horses EVERYDAY. I'd rather have the management job.

[philosoraptor]

Here's a thought point:
In my area starter homes are $180,000 -200,000. The pay for that job in my area is about $8/hr (assuming you actually got a regular 40 hrs worth of work is about $16,600. Let's assume there are 2 wage earners. There's no way that $33,000/year household can afford $1,000/month loan (plus property taxes & PMI). Apartments are $800 and up. Then take out income taxes, gas to get to your farm, the health insurance employer doesn't include, and just plain living expenses.

I worked as a Barn Manager for awhile. I loved the riders, the proud parents, the horses' personalities,and the nice coworkers. I'm the ideal worker: a horse owner myself, college educated, polite & friendly, honset, and very reliable. As much as I loved it, I couldn't do it anymore.

I was lucky to have a spouse with a very good job so I could afford to do this job for fun. But gas prices went up, taxes went up, cost of living went way up, even my own horses' feed went up... but my wage did not.

Add in to it the attitude some people have about people under them. Treat all your workers like they're slow, lazy, and worthless and of course you won't be able to keep workers. In my case I was taken advantage of. "Barn Manage" meant care for horses & help students. When people realised I was competent, suddenly I was staying there alone till midnight waiting for the vet. I was filling in for the owners' frequent days off. I was mucking stalls for the less-than-reliable stall cleaner cause I couldn't stand to see the poor horses standing in 3 huge wheelbarrow's worth of filth. I caught loose horses, & treated sick ones. I was also effectively babysitting kids because some parents thought riding lessons were free day-care.

In short, BOs need to hire intelligent people who know which end of the horse to feed and you can't do that paying only minimum wage. And no matter what your workers are paid, you can't treat them like your personal servants. A living wage plus fair treatment = employees who will stay.

To any BO who doesn't understand why they can't keep workers, go work at someone else's barn for a few months. You've got to see things from your workers' point of view.

[Parysa]

We aren't a boarding farm so there are no issues of boarders to deal with. We can offer someone an opportunity to learn the breeding business - top to bottom, training methods used in Germany, clinics with top trainers from Germany and an opportunity to earn commissions on horses sold. I'm finding we have conditioned young riders to focus on RIDING & SHOWING their own horses only.
Do you do that by actually teaching them, telling them what you're doing, why, and how to do it right? Or do you do that by giving them the "privelege" (I've actually heard it referred to as such, gag) of working and expect them to pick everything up through osmosis? I've seen plenty of places that do the latter and then tell you you should be grateful for the "experience". Well, I already know how to muck a stall and groom a horse and braid a mane. I want to learn how to identify and treat illnesses/injury, what the bloodlines in that breed mean and what crosses work well and what don't, I want to learn to easily identify conformational flaws--not by looking at 2D pics on the internet, but by looking at examples of REAL horses. And I'm not the type that can just observe and learn. I have to have things explained to me. You explain it, show me what you're talking about, and I get it. But I can't get it through osmosis and I'm not psychic. But, a lot of the time, that seems to be too much work for a BO to do for a WS.
The reality of pressure on students today to get into college is the fact that a large percentage - my opinion about 40% - SHOULDN'T EVEN BE GOING TO COLLEGE. They end up getting up their neck in debt and coming out with a degree worth NOTHING in some idiotic major....They could have taken that money invested in a trade or business and made something of their lives. Instead they graduate with a degree that DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AVOCATION.
I see your point and I don't. On one hand, there is my father. He went to school, partied, skydived, and came out with a degree in Geography. What the h#$$ can you do with a geography degree? Exactly what he did...join the Navy and learn to fly helicopters. Does that have anything to do with Geography? No. He wasted his money and then got a profession with the military. He isn't in the Navy anymore, but he's still flying.
On the other hand, if you DON'T get a college degree, and DON'T go in the military, there's really NOTHING out there that gives you any chance of a career. You can go wait tables at a restaurant, dependant on the generosity of others which, IME is in short supply. You can flip burgers and hope to work up to management if you work your ass off...until they realize that they can pay teenagers less to do it and most of the time have the bennies turned down b/c said teenagers have those provided by their parents, thereby saving more money. You can muck stalls. But who wants to, or even can, do that for the rest of their lives? Not everyone automatically has the know-how to run a business (as evidenced by many BOs). Everyone offering any type of good job either wants someone with a degree or someone with experience in that field, or both. Even entry-level jobs. Another example--I was a receptionist at a doctor's office. Every place I applied turned me down b/c I didn't have experience or a degree. How was I supposed to get experience without being able to get the job? I got "lucky" and a friend of mine convinced a friend of hers to hire me. I ended up getting let go b/c what they really wanted was someone they could pay less temporarily while they looked for someone with more experience. As soon as they found her and had her trained, I was gone. They TOLD me this when they "let me go." When I asked why they didn't tell me the position was temporary, they said, "We figured you'd know we wouldn't keep you." :confused: So what am I supposed to do? Personally, I'm going to be working at a barn taking care of other people's horses and using the money to go to college so that I can eventually hopefully be able to have my own horses.
People have mentioned the Army and getting hazard pay. My hubby has been in the Army for five years and I've been injured by horses five times for every one injury he's sustained in the Army. I know very few people who have actually been injured while in the military, and 9/10 of those have been deployed and HAVE been in war zones. Yet I know very, very few people who have NOT been injured by horses. IMO, the everyday risk to people involved with horses is much more than that provided by the military, except for those (relative) few on the front lines. They are at the poverty level, and still get paid 3x more than we do. I know from experience how difficult it is to live on a military salary. You can't afford to support a family on a barn worker's salary. So why should people stay?

[Capt.Jack'sGirl]

"Work seems to be a 4 letter word to some kids. They have no clue about making a living, Plastic and parents and thats the only way some know."


I realize that this says 'some' kids, but honestly, as a young person, I find it really disheartening to constantly hear statements like this. In fact, most of the kids I know are incredibly hard working, yes, even alot of the ones with money. As for me personally, I've always, ALWAYS, either had to work off my board, or my lessons, and as I got older, had to pay my bills outside of the horse world on top of that. I've never resented this, or tried to get by on my parent's dime. Sometimes my mother and I worked side by side mucking stalls and feeding horses so we could afford to keep ours. And this was with both of us having non-horsey jobs to pay our regular bills.

Currently I work at a barn owned by a longtime friend of mine. I do my job, and when I'm finished with my assigned duties, I try to find other things that need to be done until the end of the day. I work hard, and I enjoy it. I get payed 325 a week, and I'm grateful for that, because it pays my bills, so long as I live within my means. Yes, I have to live by a budget, and it's really difficult to save for a wedding on that kind of budget, but I want to work in the horse industry for the rest of my life, and my job will provide me with many opportunities for that. So I work hard and I am happy, even though I used to make twice as much as a waitress.

I am aware that many kids today are lazy and spoiled. But to be totally honest, so are many adults, who seem to think that once they hit a certain age, that work ethic they preach to people my age no longer applies to them. It just irks me beyond measure to find myself, and so many other hardworking young people, lumped into the category of "lazy kids today" when we are so willing, and proud, to work hard in the horse industry, despite the often low pay and minimal to non-existant material benefits.

[mst]

My h/j showing and sales barn is how i earn a living. No trust fund, no part time job, and my husband is my partner in it. No income from anything else but horses. I did not go to college. He did not finish college. We do not have health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, 401k, ira's, etc. We do have all insurances on the horse end.

In the 5 years we have had our own business, we have had at one time an average of lets say 12 horses. 11 full board client horses and one we own. Full board is the horses stall space, feed, bedding, hay, full grooming service, and all labor to do it with a rate over $1000 per month. Everything else is extra. I school and show all 12 and share teaching and coaching duties with my husband. he is my ground person when I am riding as well. For 11 paying horses, I need 2 maybe 3 grooms in order to make sure the clients are satisfied with what they are paying for. These grooms have to want to work as a team with me. I like to present it that he/she works with me not for me.
A groom that reliable, does a good job, but is not ready for a lot of responsibilty yet starts at $400 a week, plus housing, use of a car, a day off, Xmas bonus, and personal time when they really need it. We often have them over for dinner, take them out to dinner, and include them in fun events.

How can I offer, what some are saying is awful not to give, health insurance, paid vacations, 401, etc when i don't even have it? Then I should understand why good help is hard to find? A person who wants a job in the industry needs to know that if they do a good job, it helps better the business, bringing in more clients, and increasing cash flow. Then you can start getting all the benefits. Try to hire help for a decent salary, have them take the job, and then have them not care not only hurts me but them too. Less money I bring in, the less money i can offer.

As far as advancement, never ever promise it. When you hire people who say they know how to ride and ask initially if they will be able to show, I say its a possibilty if I think you ride well enough. I also offer a raise of 50-100 every 6 months if you try to learn more and do a good job.

College degrees do not make a difference. I have almost never hired anyone who has an equine degree. When I read their resumes and interview them, they think that degree means they are automatically qualified for the position offered. The few I did hire, challenged whatever I asked them to do with what their textbook or professor said. i had one girl who was to manage the barn and help exercise some horses on the flat. We also let her ride some of the horses in a private jumping lesson. I had her flatting a nice green horse that a client owned as an investment. I wanted her just to nicely hack her for 2 weeks. At the end of 2 weeks, I had her pop an x while I was on the ground in the ring. Mare looked good. Time for me to school the horse more on the flat and get her jumping around. The girl went ape shit that she was not going to school her! She thought since she hacked it for 2 weeks that she should school it. Same hissy when it was horseshow time too. I asked her if the clients bought the horse and paid me for her to ride and show. She quit.

[Flameborne]

And I'd say that nine times out of ten, the expectations DO change (read: INCREASE), but the pay does not. :no: If I had one dollar for every unpaid hour I've worked over the years at various barns, I'd have quite the nest egg. I don't think it's unreasonable for staff to come early and/or stay late when the need arises, but those extra hours should be PAID...not automatically considered "part of the job." :no:

Agreed 100%. If there is ever a crunch and the help has to put in extra time, it is paid time. We don't salary anyone. And if I ask help to put in extra time I expect to have to pay for it also.

[sid]

I've been following this thread with great, great interest. This topic is an Achilles' heel with me and I DO believe what the OP asserts is "right on" for the most part...these days. I truly wish it was not so...I've worked hard in the past few years trying to prove what she asserts is not so. But...

Having a hugely successful business background (VP, CEO of nationally-known companies and eventually a nationally recognized business owner for 30+years), and also owning a breeding farm for the past 20 years, I have of late concluded that the horse industry employee psyche is "unique" and quite distinct from the "rest of the world" -- at least it is for those seek a long term job living with and caring for horses.

The same "model" used in normal businesses when used for horse farm in my experience does not work. I've always offered ABOVE average wages, incentives, treatment with respect as in partnership, lovely environment, the BEST of trainers/farriers/vets with cutting edge education in horse care, nutrition, management...and it's close to impossible to find and retain qualified help in recent years.

In my corporate business endeavors I've had little or no turnover in an industry that is CRAZY. Running a political direct response mass marketing ad agency is about as nuts as it gets. AND much like with horsekeeping, there's a huge learning curve for all who dare to put their foot in the water. My employees and I are like partners...but most horse farm hires don't seem to "think" that way today.

Many think they know more than they really do and are disappointed that majority of one's education is "hands on" and is learned over years. That is true of most jobs, but I think the perception of having horses is a "hobby", may be a factor in why many employees take this kind of work less seriously.

There also seems to be more resentment about the lack of predictability that comes with horsekeeping/farming. The interested parties for horse jobs these days, don't understand that 95% of horse jobs is cleaning up after them and tending to them -- and if you're not too tired after that, then there's time to ride and enjoy them. We BO's know that.. we foolishly decided to bring our horses home and make a business of it, only to find out we could no longer ride or have the fun we used to when we boarded. To find reliable help is the exception, not the rule in the last 10 years. Thus our lives revolve around our unpredictable horses and with unpredictable, and often underqualified help who oversell their qualifications.

The agricultural aspect of horsekeeping and the unpredictability of answering to Mother Nature when needed, seems to me is what is uncomfortable for today's wanna-be horse farm employees. It impedes on one's personal stuff at times. I've often said...you don't work for me, you work for my horses. What THEY need regarding care will always come first, over what you think you're giving to me. And yet, I've lost 2 of my horses in the past 3 years to employees who chose to not to follow instructions and cut corners.

I have a lovely full-spectrum riding/training facility with 5,000 acres of equestrian trails that I would love to share. But I stopped because of the issue the OP brings up. If I can't count on honest and qualified long term help with my own horses, I don't want the liability of what that might mean to caring for others' horses. When I see thread about boarders bitching about boarding fees, it makes my blood boil. The boarding market will not support the wages that are deserved for this line of work. It's not the BO's fault wages in the industry are deemed low for the work involved... it's just economics. I'm lucky I can subsidize my horse business, but many cannot.

On an interesting and ligher note, the employees I found to be the very best, understand what comes with the territory. They were instinctive and self driven -- couldn't leave a dirty stall, an empty water bucket or a fence board down because of their concern for the horses. Going the extra mile is something one cannot teach to an employee. It's either in them or it's not. Our job as employers is to MAKE SURE that we don't take that level of concern for granted! It's priceless. But I have to say, that level of concern just doesn't seem to manifest itself in today's horse farm work force. And I DO think that is due to a generational "shift" that the OP was talking about. It makes me sad (beyond my own dilemma finding help as I age), but I find it tragic that so many today find no spritual or ethical value in being this way.

The wanna -be horse employees I am seeing today want to blame the messenger (the BO) because the "job" doesn't meet with their fantasy or up to their often distorted expectations. They have other things they want to do. And that's fine. We all do. But what I'm seeing in this generation is a need to be entertained, or at minimum, "get what they need" first and foremost. It seems to be about "ENTITLEMENT", without the credentials that justify it in their employment endeavors.

Unlike immigrant labor who WANT and NEED the job (and I refuse to employ, though it would make my life easier for sure), the industry base young people now often still live at home. Mom and Dad don't charge rent, often make car payments, etc... bascially support them until they find the "perfect job" that makes them happy and pays them enough money (in their opinion) to set them loose. That is what most of the market is now. Unfortunately, there's little incentive to make the job work and if the going gets a little tough at times, they simply head back to mom and dad to once again pick up the tab for employment experimentation. It's just tragic....the "safety net" in these cases only enables the entitlement behavior. And the beat goes on.

I agree with those who say parents are the problem. While it's understandable for parents to want to "SAVE" their kids from the hardships that they might have endured in their early working years, I believe it's not really good for them for the long haul. In my life experience..."no pain, no gain". I don't see many in this generation understanding that there are unseen and long term benefits in making some personal sacrifices for one's job. That doesn't mean that one should accept slave wages to work exhaustive hours and deal with a monster of a boss. But I do believe that tough times are good for us and are a learning experience and makes us better at what we do. It also teaches tolerance. That in the sacrifice, and not always getting our way, there is something to be learned that will benefit us later.

Horse work will always test your feelings, your life choices and your personal relationships...that is, "giving" vs. getting". That's why they are so good for us I think. They get us outside ourselves. They pysically and emotionally challenge us. Sadly, I'm finding few these days that those who apply for jobs here are not interested in that kind of life experience. Unlike in the corporate world, the stuff that happens at a farm that needs "tending to" cannot be shoved into a file cabinet, and pulled out the next day to handle. Believe me...I wish it could!!! (grin)

Like many jobs that are "unique" and require certain skill, perception and inborn talent in the corporate world -- horsekeeping, training and agricultural expertise is no exception. It's something one cannot become proficient at from learning about it "in school" or just on a whim -- you have to actually do it. And you have to do it for a long time to be good at it. Many in the generation I interview now don't seem to want to do what is required to be really good at it.

Things with horses/their care/ the weather/ the farm itself --- is all about trying to manage Mother Nature. No one can do that -- you just have to go with it and understand that the "JOB" that you love will never be 9-5, the extra hours you put in for a collicking horse or to soak a foot, mend a dangerous fence break, to foal watch the mare that decided to deliver early -- or to stay late because the hay delivery arrived 5 hrs. later than expected -- it's what is necessary to do a GOOD job for our horses and for our industry. That kind of committment to the "uncertainty" is not for everyone. These days it is for few, regardless of the wage.

15 years ago I had young people here that found the work exciting and rewarding. They were paid very well, but you could tell by the look in their eyes, they did it because they loved the challenge and the outdoor enviroment, not just because of the money. But I paid them well because I truly understood the sacrifice on their personal lives, having gone through the "school of hard knocks" myself as a young woman with no family support or $$ to fall back on should I not like my job.

In the last 8-10 years or so, I find the majority of employees are resentful about what employees of 15 years ago took for granted and embraced in this thing we call horse farming. They now quit at the drop of a hat, even when paid high wages with reasonable weekly hours. So the arguement of "slave wages" being the problem doesn't fly in my experience.

ESG's posts say it well. This is an agricultural business where unpredictablility is certain (especially caring for "living things"). Was I paid the big bucks when I started as a "newbie" entry level employee in corporate America -- grueling hours, pissed off family because my job took up so much of my time? No. It became a passion...and look what happened. Never in my wildest imagination did I think that I would become so successful. But you know what? I loved what I did (do) so much, I would have done it for free if I could have! But I don't expect that much of others.

In the beginning for many years, I managed the breeding operation -- mares and foals -- myself (while running my company that paid for it). I was able to manage quite well with part timers to help with stalls, grounds/barn maintenance, feeding, etc. I hired people who had NO EXPERIENCE, BUT HAD DESIRE to learn and cared deeply about the horses. My best employees were part time college students who knew NOTHING about horses, but were total animal lovers. They were seekers of knowledge, grateful for the experience, were instinctive, devoted and totally self-motivated. They didn't live at home with their parents. They were working their way through college and wanted to have a job that they found rewarding. Two went on to med school, another to vet school and another became a CPA.

Things were fine until about 10 years ago. It was only then that I decided that I needed to hire a full time barn manager (I was still a private farm, with most horses living out), so I could spend time starting my youngsters and spend more time at the office to handle an increasingly successful and demanding business (again...which paid for the farm). It's been down hill since then.

I've even hired BO's (with no real managment experience -- would train them) at $50K/yr. great bennies, 5 1/2 day work week, etc. Very "corporate" MANAGEMENT scenario. 45-50 hrs. week avg. Lovely gals. But they resented doing stalls when surprise layups temporarily create more work. They're not the ones who stay late to care for a sick horse. I still am. They count their hours. Unfortunately, with horses you can't count hours. Unfortunately, with MANY careers, especially in a management position, you can't count hours -- or if you do, you don't get very far.

I think we're simply losing our work force for this line of work, particularly in the more urbanized areas where horse farms still remain, but the rural way of thinking and working is vanishing generationally.

[mst]

"On an interesting and ligher note, the employees I found to be the very best understand this instinctively and passionately and cannot leave a dirty stall, an empty water bucky or a fence board down because they are concerned about the horse. One cannot teach that to an employee. It's either in them or it's not. Our job as employers is to MAKE SURE that we don't take that level of concern for granted! It's priceless. But I have to say, that level of concern just doesn't seem to manifest itself today. And I DO think that most of it is a generational "shift" that the OP was talking about. It makes me sad beyond my my own dilemma as I age, but it makes me sad that the new generation finds no spritual or ethical value in being this way."

that is like when you have to go away for the day and cannot be there for the morning feeding and your employee never shows up. they know they were going to be the only person there and you were relying on them to do it. How can someone do that to animals? Do they just say to themselves " they will live without eating today and they can just lick the dew off the grass this morning for water? What if a horse was dead or dying right then or broke its leg? i'm horrified there are people like that.

One of the best things about the horse industry is that you will never learn everything. The education is endless. There is, for the most part, no right or wrong way to do things. There is no textbook that you have to follow. You learn amazing things from others that may do something totally different from the way you always do it.

You cannot get your credentials from a school. You earn them through experience and will always have the ability to ad more.

The stories from your mentors are amazing. I wish I could have seen some with my own eyes. I love old books about riders and horses showing at that time. I love to watch videos of old horseshows before I was old enough to be there.

Thats is how you have to feel if you want to work in this industry. I would work for peanuts just to have the experiences i have had.

[equusrocks]

I see what you're saying sid. I'm on the "employee" end of things, and I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble. As an ex-boarder, I can say that I agree that most boarders expect the horses to be cared for consistently. It is that level of concern for the horses that makes someone a good "caretaker." It's going back to make sure a stall door is shut and locked, just for peace of mind, or dumping the pooped in water trough, cleaning it, and filling it even though you know somebody else would have done it later, or calling a vet/the BO/BM if you get that "something's not right" feeling with a horse. You can't find that in everyone.

The biggest worries for me in a barn job? The idea of 6am to 10pm days, 7 days a week, not being able to see my friends/family, or having a condescending boss. Just things that I know would make me dislike my job enough that I eventually would find another one. At my last barn job, I worked only ONE day a week. The rest of the week, I worked nights at my current job, around 40-48 hours a week. The BO knew I worked nights, sometimes until 2-4am. I cannot count the times she would call me at 7 or 8 in the morning in the middle of the week to ask me about various things that had happened on Saturday/Sunday. Things that would have been appropriate to ask either as soon as she noticed, or the next weekend when I worked. She had no respect for my life off her farm, and I only worked there one day a week. I can't imagine what it would have been like had I lived on the farm or had I worked more often. I know not all employers are like her, but for $5/hr, it was more hassle than what it was worth.

I think there are definitely three types of easily identifiable people. Those who work their life around their job, those whose job is their life, and those who give work the back burner if it doesn't fit into their life. It seems that with barn jobs, the separation of outside life/ work has no real defined line. It defnitely takes a devoted person to make a career out of horses! :yes:

[Jsalem]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot. It's an interesting discussion. Good work, guys.

The comments about "slave labor" got me thinking. Think about what a large portion of our economy is dependent upon cheap labor. As heinous as it was, slavery was a part of the economic system for 100's of years. Now we've found other ways to get it. Our food supply depends upon it. Construction, the restaurant business, the hotel business. Many of those jobs are now fillled by immigrants who are basically willing to work "cheap." But also think about corporate America. What is "outsourcing" but a means of getting labor for cheap and keeping costs competitive? And of course, our good old horse industry.

There is no doubt that we as a country have come a long way since the days that we used slaves, or indentured servants or the "low class" to do this work. I just finished reading a book call "Life in the Victorian Household" It detailed things like the hours that servants worked- you wouldn't believe what was expected of them! I got tickled thinking what my stable hands would say if I expected them to work 16 hours a day and sleep on the floor! But that's the way it was back then.

Back to the present.... We have progressed beyond using slave labor and indentured servants in this country. We have come closer to the reality of "all men are created equal" and "equal opportunity." And that is a good thing. But can we function without cheap labor? What would happen if every worker in every job were paid a handsome salary with full benefits? What would things cost? What would a bale of hay cost? Or a bag of feed? Or the cost of board? Or a hamburger? Or a Kiwi?

Perhaps the costs of things would skyrocket, but we would consume less and become more self sufficient. Just some musings for Monday morning....

[TripleRipple]

sid said:

"I think we're simply losing our work force for this line of work, particularly in the more urbanized areas where horse farms still remain, but the rural way of thinking and working is vanishing generationally."

I agree with your entire post - much of it is my experience and analysis as well.

And I especially agree with the last line quoted above. I find it regretful, and am saddened by it, but that is what is occuring even in the very rural "wild" west to which I moved in order to have a deliberately non urban life AND horses in a setting where they were still "used" to earn a living (and also used for sport and pleasure) where I thought we'd be a better fit. Services and help easier to find, etc...

However, the landscape here is literally changing to urban recreation before my very eyes. Good farriers/vets are scarce as hen's teeth, this generation of rural kids only stays if they find work with a newcomer who is a "filthy rich" wanna-be dude ranch owner from out of state, who knows zip about this life, but watched a western movie once. Otherwise, they head out for a non rural life of construction or trucking. The in town kids are told they are "rich" and don't need to do menial things, sadly many of them are dumber than a box of rocks, have no parental requirement of developing a work ethic, and like someone said, live on plastic and parents....

A life with horses is disappearing here as well... I told dh to to cherish every moment of every day of this still grand, but definitely disappearing lifestyle we are lucky to have here with the open spaces, the horses, the whole shooting match. Because we will be one of the last generations to have done it this way.

[ESG]

sid, beautifully put. You managed to put my thoughts on paper, and express them far better than I could. Thank you. :)

I agree with your theory that "the rural way of thinking and working is vanishing". This is, IMO, the biggest part of the problem that is the subject of this discussion. You never seem to hear, "Oh, cleaning stalls is too hard" or "I'm only interested in training your horses for you" from a farm/ranch raised employee. The reason? They know what rural life is. They know it's never 9-5. 6-9, sometimes, or even 7-8 and then 4-6, but almost never 9-5. When you work with horses, you're at the mercy of not only their delicate GI systems, but their seeming penchant for self-torture, and some with downright suicidal tendencies. These minor inconveniences, coupled with dealing with whatever Mother Nature deems to hand down that particular day, create a working environment that would make any corporate HR person blanch. Trying to compare the corporate world with the horse world is apples and oranges. And if you can't compare the two, how can any prospective horse professional possibly think that they'd be paid/compensated equally? :confused:

[Trixie]

And if you can't compare the two, how can any prospective horse professional possibly think that they'd be paid/compensated equally?

That's all well and good, but again, we need to be able to live and not burn out. Even if not equally - liveably.

I'd certainly make some sacrifices for a career in horses simply because I'd be with horses. But I'm not going to let myself starve, or get stressed out beyond belief trying to pay basic bills.

While it isn't always going to be easy, a barn owner can help to keep their staff longer by making it possible for them to stay happy - by offering at least a few perks. And not just the fact that you're around horses.
That's a perk, but there's other ways to be around horses.

[ESG]

That's all well and good, but again, we need to be able to live and not burn out. Even if not equally - liveably.

Then find a job that will pay you what you need, and don't expect an entire industry to change because you want it to.

I'd certainly make some sacrifices for a career in horses simply because I'd be with horses. But I'm not going to let myself starve, or get stressed out beyond belief trying to pay basic bills.

See above. :D

While it isn't always going to be easy, a barn owner can help to keep their staff longer by making it possible for them to stay happy - by offering at least a few perks. And not just the fact that you're around horses.
That's a perk, but there's other ways to be around horses.

And you know this how, please? How many barns have you managed/owned?

[sid]

Trixie, many barns offer free boarding to their staff so they can also live with their own horses right under their nose, while working. That is a HARD cost that the owner is paying on an employee's behalf. On average it's about $5,000 per year per horse out of their own pocket for field boarding over the course of a year (where pasture is dormant 6 mos. of the year) in this part of the country -- at least to take care of them well.

It's like having a $5,000 bonus every year...in corporate earning terms. If you are allowed to keep two horses field boarded that's $10,000 that the BO is paying out to maintain your horse for you.

What other perks would you like to see? I'm curious and very interested to know.

[Trixie]

Perks can be anything from a few rides to a decent meal once in a while, heck, a beer and conversation at the end of the day. Just things that let your staff know that you APPRECIATE them, rather then treating them like they're completely disposable. It can also be something like giving staff access to the farm truck for work errands rather then having them put wear and tear on their own car. Someone has to go get the feed, but it's a lot harder when they have to use their own resources to supplement YOUR business.

And you know this how, please? How many barns have you managed/owned?

This, m'dear, is common business sense. Keep your staff happy and they're less likely to make your life difficult, and far more likely to go out of their way to make it easier. They're also less likely to quit and bad mouth you for treating them like they're disposable :D Keeping your staff happy should be seen as an investment - and it doesn't even need to be a huge one.


Then find a job that will pay you what you need, and don't expect an entire industry to change because you want it to.

Thats's precisely what I did :D , as did some of my friends. The horse industry winds up losing out on people that would otherwise be hard workers and incredibly loyal by making it difficult for people to stay in jobs with little pay or hope of individual advancement. I knew this when I picked my career - though most days I find myself wishing I were working at a horse farm.

[Trixie]

Trixie, many barns offer free boarding to their staff so they can also live with their own horses right under their nose, while working. That is a HARD cost that the owner is paying on an employee's behalf. On average it's about $5,000 per year per horse out of their own pocket for field boarding over the course of a year (where pasture is dormant 6 mos. of the year) in this part of the country -- at least to take care of them well.

That's a perk! As is housing. These are things that make the job LIVEABLE on a low wage. Simply expecting someone to find an apartment or a house on $8 an hour causes burn out - but again, if you make it a decent living situation, it's possible to do the job with less burnout. This way, you can make ends meet - or at least you have a place to sleep - winds up being a huge load off your back.

This is particularly true in my area, where housing prices are off the map.

[sid]

Trixie...there are many farms that offer BOTH housing and board. You may not be looking hard enough or you may not have been hired for a position which offers that simply because you do not yet have the credentials in the industry to warrant those kinds of very costly perks. In any event, learn as much as you can, suffer through the long hours and keep yourself educated about the horses and their care (in-depth)...the more you know the better you will do in the long run in getting those perks if you are pursuing a career with horses!

Also, Equusrocks -- your last paragraph reminds me that it is "balance". It's balance for BOTH BO's and for their employees. I think that many in the horse care work force today don't understand that BO's hire help only because THEY have a demanding job outside of their farm that pays for the farm and pays for employees' salaries. We BO's have to make a BIG living too -- with huge demands outside the farm from our own jobs - to pay for it all, including trying to take good care of horse farm employees.

If horse help becomes unreliable, then we can't work do the other job to support it. It's a vicious cycle that requires a "big picture" understanding on both the BO's and employee part. That kind of understanding and acceptance of the reality of horsefarming is only thing that makes it really "work" economically for both parties.

Unless of course, like ESG said, you find a job with incredibly wealthy people whose horses are a hobby and who have no need to run their farm as a real business would.

Edited to say: Trixie, I didn't see your last post before I replied. You keep referring to yourself as being seen as "disposable" by those you have worked for. Make yourself totally indespensible and you will never be treated as disposable by most, thinking and knowledgeable employers.

[Trixie]

Trixie...there are many farms that offer BOTH housing and board. You may not be looking hard enough or you may not have been hired for a position which offers that simply because you do not yet have the credentials in the industry to warrant those kinds of very costly perks. In any event, learn as much as you can, suffer through the long hours and keep yourself educated about the horses and their care (in-depth)...the more you know the better you will do in the long run in getting those perks if you are pursuing a career with horses!


I'm aware of that. JSWAN's deal sounded pretty sweet, even - a place to live, enough money for food and a few (though not excessive) extras. That's fair. For that, I'd work very hard to stay - especially having seen how gorgeous her farm is!

What is frustrating to me, as I have witnessed on this board and offline, is that a lot of barn owners seem to think that working with horses should be a privledge (which it is) and that should be the ONLY perk. And for that perk, you should work your ass off.
Not long ago, someone in NOVA posted that they wanted to pay a low salary for a barn manager, no housing, no bennies, would have to do stalls. No riding, no training, and if I remember correctly, no or reduced board (it's been a while)
I couldn't, for the life of me figure out who could stay in a position like that - particularly with the housing market in Leesburg the way it is. I figured out all expenses and it came down to something along the lines of everything but $6 going towards just affording the apartment and basics, and fuhgettabout anything like shampoo or soap or toothpaste.


I couldn't find that post, but this one popped up, as posted by ESG "VENT - WHY is it so hard to find good help?!?!?"

Anyway, so I pay her groom/farmhand the same hourly rate she does, only for just two hours a day. His duties were to muck seven stalls, clean and refill the water buckets, and turn out the first set of horses. For this, he was to be paid $8.50 for two hours' work, five days a week.

My question is this - WHY is it so damned hard to keep good help, when you pay an honest wage and demand decent work in return?



Point made.

[Jsalem]

Let's not forget the point of this thread. The issue at hand is work ethic. I think we can all agree that working with horses is a labor of love. But in one corner we have the employers that say, "I pay a fair wage and can't find workers that are willing to fill the positions that require the same sacrifices I'm willing to make- long hours, but honest and rewarding work with the animals." In the other corner, the employees: "I can't survive on what you're offering, so I'm going to corporate america. I'll just pay board."

Is the problem work ethic?
Or the greed of the business owners who try to exploit their workers?
Or the expectations of our young people?
Or a world that is changing and an industry that is dependent upon the old ways?
Or what?

[fourhorses]

This thread has been interesting to say the least, and I can agree with both sides of the arguement -- having been a member at some time or another of "the slave labor force", a respected member of a "stable team", a boarder who had to deal with slacker workers, and a barn owner who tried desperately to find help that didn't necessarily have to be knowledgeable (hey, I worked along with them and didn't mind showing the ropes) just dependable and hard working.
I can say that most of the kids anymore don't have as much work ethic, respect for anything but themselves (and even that's questionable), or just plain old grit and gumption as they used to. We've raised a bunch of bums in this country, and they aren't worth the oxygen they waste if you ask me. But that's not to say that ALL of our children are like that -- I don't think my kids fit that bill (well, sometimes they need to be straightened out, but that's teenagers for you), and we are decidedly not rural. My girls work on their days off from school functions and their "real jobs" (they work after school flipping burgers for spending cash) and after their chores here at home and with our animals, for a lady with a small training barn. They muck, feed, put up hay, help with tacking up and grooming, and small stuff in return for a free lesson. The lady's happy to have them come in when they do because they're reliable, hard working, respectful, knowledgeable (they know how to do give shots, worm, wrap legs, poultice, take care of a sick/green/stud horse about as well as many 2 year equine degree folks -- and if they don't know, they'll ask). And they are more than happy to work for her, as she and her family bend over backwards to help teach them things, make sure they get their lessons, help them make contacts in the horse world -- they always try to make time to help her out no matter what because of this. But they don't do this full or even part time, even though they'd like to, because they have to drive 35 minutes just to get to the place, and they get paid more in town -- something has to pay the gas money to drive down there after all.
They used to work at a couple of other stables that were closer, but quit both. Why? Well, the first wanted to pay them $2 a stall/$3 and hour, which was fine by them and they cleaned her barn (which had a layer of hay in the aisles, etc.) in one weekend -- even the cobwebs and bleached the water buckets (some with dead mice, blech). Trouble was, the BO didn't want to pay out more than $20 a week to both, didn't want them cleaning anymore than $20 worth and would rather have the place look raunchy than pay, which the other workers there were perfectly happy with as they were too lazy to take any initiative to clean the place up and didn't seem to mind not getting paid (perhaps they had other forms of income/pocket change) -- they ended up being shorted quite a bit of money (about $100 worth, even on that pay scale) and finally left in disgust from both the lack of pay, the horrid conditions, and the way the horses were treated. On to another, "professional" barn, and the same thing, except they were supposed to be compensated with lessons and reduced board, plus other kids came in to help so they weren't supposed to have to do it all -- the board was reduced maybe $50 a month, they got a grand total of 6 lessons (which amounted to them riding problem horses for the BO because the BO didn't want to, and wouldn't put her other students on the horse as it was too dangerous), and the other help were indeed a bunch of complete slacker kids whose only ability was brown-nosing which got them out of work (which my kids did because they couldn't stand to see maggotty birds in water buckets, poop all over the aisles, stalls not done since the last time they had been out, etc.). Again, my kids left in disgust (and again were shorted about $100 - 150 in pay that was owed them) and both times with more than my blessing, (after a month at both places I really didn't want them working there; they only persisted because of the horses) for much the same reasons. Of course both BOs whined and bemoaned the fact that my kids walked out on them and left them high and dry. Oh, and in both places the boarders acted like little kings and queens, stuck up richie riches who the peasants were to attend and cater to -- which was ironic, considering the facilities and the care, hardly an A show barn situation.
I only bring up this long ramble to illustrate that indeed there are two sides to every coin, and good and bad on both sides that either make or ruin it for the others -- my kids absolutely hate working with the majority of their peers, and quite a few of the college kids, because they are so lazy, dishonest, and spoiled, but by the same token many of their employers and adult managers haven't been much better in the lazy, spoiled, inefficient, cheating, and self-satisfied categories. Heck, even some of the customers both adult and young haven't been exactly paragons.

[mst]

most trainers that I know offer housing. Its pretty much automatic to me. So if I offer housing with utilities paid (not the phone), a car, and lots of time meals, That employee doesn't have much overhead. Not every day is 12-16 hours. I know my group does a rain dance.

I never thought about the rural development end of it. It makes sense. Now a days, kids rather stay home playing video games, go to the mall, and some sadly sell drugs. No responsibilty. Places where riding schools and rentable trail horses were are now walmarts and bj's.

[Ben and Me]

I don't know you, other than having posted on this board with you for the last five or so years....But...

Quote:
" The kids of today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay! "


Would you say that the above quote applies to your own son?

Didn't think so...so don't make generalizations about the rest of us.

[tbtrailrider]

I am blessed with 2 wonderful hard working teenagers..they both work full time at Sonic . My son is a cook and my daughter is a carhop. Right now, as I am unemployed, and hubby is as well, they are paying the bills. We live in substandard housing in a depressed rural community. I moved here on short notice, it was all I could afford at the time. I had a deal set up in Virginia with a lady that was gonna put us up in a mobile home in exchange for work, NO PAY.I would have earned money by schooling her sale horses, getting them started over small jumps, w/t/c...etc..for a commission, and I was gonna try and pick up some braiding work at shows, and run pony parties for a commission. I was going, well, we were going..and she sends me an email telling me that she changed her mind, the MH would not have a big enough water supply for us.
So, I told my young uns that I was counting on them..I would find us a place to live that would take all our animals, but they would have to get a job to help out. Like I said, they are supporting the family right now.
We would KILL for a lovely place to work like some of the farms I have checked out on this thread.All of us can handle a horse, and hubby was a maintenance manager for Woodsedge. Too bad none of you are in Ky.....
Just for comparison, here are the current horse jobs listed in my area.


1.

ANIMAL SPECIALIST Temporary position (1): 1/1/07 to 9/30/07.
Review/assess/modify/monitor various aspects of mare management and foaling during upcoming foaling season; advise and oversee techniques for monitoring health and well-being of foals; assess/advise on sales preparation process and methods of advertising and marketing to enhance sales results; assess/advise/oversee stallion management; review/assess/modify farm's equine nutrition program; oversee and assist with judging and selection of thoroughbreds for sales seasons; $16.82/hr., Dell Ridge Farm. Must have: Bachelor's degree (or equivalent) in Equine Science (or related) and 1 yr. training and/or exp. with int'l thoroughbred horse farm. 3/4 wage guar. Tools, supplies, housing to qualified workers, trans. pd. upon 50% of contract period


2.
Farm Manager Yearling Division, will work at our Bourbon county farm. He will oversee the general health and well being of all of the thoroughbred yearlings on the farm, liaise with both veterinarians and the General Manager regarding feeding programs, vaccination and de-worming schedules for yearlings. He will supervise a staff of more than 15 grooms and stable-hands. He observes the yearlings to detect signs of illness and injury and he treats minor ailments. He is responsible to assess and evaluate the conformation of each horse and liaise with the Veterinarians and Blacksmith regarding the appropriate treatment options to ensure horses are ready for both private and public sale. He supervises the exercise and training of thoroughbred yearlings in preparation for sale. He organizes the exhibition of horses for private sale and communicates with clients for prospective private sales. He accompanies consignments of Thoroughbred yearlings to public auction and supervises our staff and yearlings at public auction. He will liaise directly with all of our European clients regarding their sales requirements. The Farm Manager - Yearling Division must have a bachelors degree in an equine related field and at least five years of experience working with thoroughbred horses. Annual salary is $62K. Only persons with authorization to work in the U.S. Send three written references and resume to

3.The Farm Manager Stallion Division, will work in our Woodford County facility. He will be responsible for 18 multi-million dollar stallions and the 2,000 or so mares to whom they are bred. Direct and coordinate day-to-day care of thoroughbred stallions and supervise support staff of 15 or more. Attend stallions during breeding and all other activities. Examine horses for illness, disease or injury and advise designated personnel of action to be taken or secure veterinarian services. Prepare horses for breeding and transportation. Inspect facilities and equipment to ensure compliance with sanitation standards and to determine maintenance and repair requirements. Maintain records such as breeding and other farm activity reports. Requisition or purchase supplies and equipment. Work closely with owners, veterinarians, and other farms to insure the safety and wellness of their mares when they come to our farm for breeding. Assist and supervise quarantine of thoroughbred horses when necessary. The Farm Manager - Stallion Division must have at least three years experience working with thoroughbred horses. Annual salary is $50K. Only persons with authorization to work in the U.S. Send three written references & resume to:

These two had no pay listed


Employment Opportunity for Stable Attendants 3 temp. openings, Rose Hill Farm, Lexington, KY. Employment begins 01/01/07 and terminates 10/31/07. 50 hrs/wk. No min. education, no min. exp. req.Job duties include maintenance & grooming of horses. You must possess basic horsemanship.Interested candidates mail resumes to


DESCRIPTION
EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY FOR HORSE TRAINER 1 temp. opening, Indian Creek Farm, Paris, KY. Employment begins 01/01/07 terminates 10/31/07. 48 hrs/wk. No min. education req. 1 month exp. req. Duties include daily care of horses, basic training activities, and light farm maintenance.

[Slewdledo]

I've done foal-watch for four years, starting in 2003 when I was 18. When i started, I didn't know anything. Now I can do everything as far as delivering a foal and taking care of the aftermath goes, so my boss doesn't have to come out unless there's a problem.

Haven't discussed a pay raise with the BO. Pay is $4/hour with 15-20 minute checks all night. I now get a $10 bonus when I deliver a foal. I can sleep in between and have one stall on video. Pay is low because some nights nothing happens. I LOVE doing this and am very good at it, and dedicated - I know the horses, remember mares' little quirks from year to year and have NEVER slept through a foaling. (About 150 total). I can go every night for weeks at a time and I HATE it when I miss one. The BO sometimes thinks I do too much and advertises in feed stores, which kind of upsets me because I am good at what I do! Do you think I'm selling myself short or have the wrong attitude?

I'd love to work PT at the farm but the BO has illegals working there, and they're men. They have housing and paid utilities and are paid a set amount every month. They get a $25/month raise/bonus at the start of each year. However they complain because they say they could make a LOT more money in construction, get paid vacation and work five days a week instead of six.

[Foxygrl516]

I'm totally late chiming in on this discussion, but I couldn't help but to add my experience. Not because I am an expert, but I have recently been burned by the industry and I am in the process of finding a new job. It is certainly not easy!

For the past year I was a "Barn Manager" for a local H/J barn. There was another Mgr at this barn who was also the head trainer. She hired me so that she could spend less time in the barn and just train all day. So, the punch line is that I left that barn at the end of the summer because even though I loved the work, it was rediculous the treatment I was getting. It was as if I was the only one there that didn't get the consideration of a human being. I got to the barn at 6:00 every morning to take care of all of the horses (about 50) then ran summer camps, met vets, farriers, accomodated clients, all of the other things mgrs do until the end of the "work day" around 6pm, then I started the evening barn work so that when the other "manager" arrived at 8 the next morning the barn looked as if a horse had never touched it. My barn stayed SPOTLESS and my boarders were happy and really trusted me. I loved doing the work and was really devastated to leave because I truly loved the work. However, I was working 7 days a week at an avg of 16 hours a day. The kicker is, I was getting a pay check of $800 per month, no discount on my horse's pasture board (so $250 of my $800 went to board so I could take care of him...), and I was treated like DIRT by the other management and the owners.

I took a lot of pride in my job and I am looking for a job as either a Barn Manager or Professional Groom. I am not whining about having to work hard, or pay my dues. I actually really enjoy cleaning stalls and doing barn work. That's where my heart is. But, as many have said, living is not cheap. I was putting my whole heart into my job and doing an amazing job at it, but I wasnt' making enough to cover the bills and had no time for a second job. I think the thing that stung so much about the situation was that my "partner" who just taught about 5 or 6 lessons a day and lounged in the office the rest of the time was making about 6 times as much as I was, and she only worked about 6 hrs a day 5 days a week... That hurt. And I have a College Degree in Animal Sciences and tons of experience. No reason to be making what came out to be about $1.70/hr.

I don't want to be rich. Not even close. I just want to pay the bills and take care of someone's horses. Some people were born to be riders, some were born to be owners, and I was born to be a caretaker. I love it more than I could ever express. But there is nothing wrong with expecting to be able to pay the bills. Especially when all of the other employees at the barn are easily able to do so. I sacrificed a lot of personal relationships to put that much time into that job and about all I got out of it was the experience, and the entry on my resume.

These people look for the best barns to board their horses for the best care, and BOs only want to hire the very best caretakers, but then they refuse to pay any respectable salary. You SHOULD get what you pay for. Unfortunately in this business you either get less than what you pay for (which is what started this thread) or you get more than you paid for and end up with a burned employee and a bad reputation. Just a thought. Sorry it was so long. This topic is very near to my heart right now, especially since I spend most of the day looking for jobs like these.

[Jumphigh83]

I don't know you, other than having posted on this board with you for the last five or so years....But...

Quote:
" The kids of today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay! "


Would you say that the above quote applies to your own son?

Didn't think so...so don't make generalizations about the rest of us.

Actually ...NO.... He regularly works in the barn, puts in hay, fixes fence, etc etc..So you ARE right in one respect...You DONT KNOW me.... Oh and I have been posting since 1999...its right in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

[sid]

Foxy -- I don't think anyone on this BB would say that your situation was fair for the hours/work and responsibilities as you describe them.

16 hr days/ 7 days per week/ $800 per month -- not acceptable IMO either. Were there any benefits? Housing, free lessons, insurance...anything else?

[ESG]

Point made.

What point, exactly? That I paid the same hourly wage as this person's full time employer? And that he came to me before starting his daily chores for her? In actuality, this man was making $17/day for two hours' work for me, in addition to the $68/day he made from his regular employer......a two mile drive away. So sorry, but $85/day for a stall mucker/laborer isn't chicken feed, no matter how you slice it. :p

Best find another point to make. :winkgrin:

[Ben and Me]

Actually ...NO.... He regularly works in the barn, puts in hay, fixes fence, etc etc..So you ARE right in one respect...You DONT KNOW me.... Oh and I have been posting since 1999...its right in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

Jumphigh, I've been posting here since 1999 too...so I guess we've been posting here together for 7 years (I was just saying that I don't know you outside of that context).

I was just reminding you NOT to make generalizations about the younger generations of riders, especially when you are going to make your own (biased) exception for your own son.

You just admitted that you don't know me from Adam, so don't say that I (and other members of my generation) am a terrible worker, just on the basis of my age.

I'm sure you had to walk to school, both ways up hill, in 3' of snow....:lol:

[Jumphigh83]

Ben, Why do you think that I make an exception for Billy? You have NO idea the amount of work he does or does not do at the farm. I only wish there were more kids who have the work ethic he does because without it, he would not be riding. I am not judging anyone. (as per your previous post) We are a family farm. We all work.
I am sorry for you that you have to carry the burden of whatever grudge you are carrying. It isnt healthy. You admit you dont know me yet it is YOU who are making judgements. Maybe when you grow up you will realize just how you painted yourself into this corner. It is unfortunate that you have turned this debate into a personal attack on me and Billy. :no:

[Foxygrl516]

Foxy -- I don't think anyone on this BB would say that your situation was fair for the hours/work and responsibilities as you describe them.

16 hr days/ 7 days per week/ $800 per month -- not acceptable IMO either. Were there any benefits? Housing, free lessons, insurance...anything else?


It really wasn't a fair deal. The situation wouldn't have been so hard for me though if I hadn't loved the job so much.

And no, there were no Benefits, I had the option of living on the farm for $550/mo (like i could afford that...), no lessons, no insurance of any kind. They told me when I left that I was selling myself short by not taking advantage of the many opportunities they had provided for me. My response was just that with all due respect, I was selling myself short by working my a$$ off for free and I wasn't doing it anymore.

After 2 days "unemployed" my body like went into shock. I got very very sick and my entire system just went into shut down. I was exhausted. Not healthy. Some people think I'm crazy for going back into that field, but there is nothing on earth that I would want to do other than that. I just ask for a tiny bit of respect and some gratitude.

[Anne FS]

Allow me to clarify. :D

Jumphigh83, you said:

You admit you dont know me yet it is YOU who are making judgements.

Nope, she's not. Ben & Me was pointing out that YOU were the one making the judgments when you wrote "The kids of today are spoiled and soft..." except for your own child of course. She was simply pointing out that one ought not to make such blanket judgments about "the kids of today," (which truly, EVERY generation says about the younger generation. The generation before us said it about us, and as someone who's been working since the age of 12 I resented it like heck). As a hard-working kid of today, she rightfully resented it, and pointed out that your own kid of today doesn't fit the bill either. In no way shape or form was that a personal attack on you & Billy, and I don't know either you or Ben & Me from a hole in the ground. I'm just a neutral spectator. With perfect hard-working children :D

[mst]

lets just rephrase to:

The majority of kids today are spoiled and soft....most dont know which end of the horse eats the hay!

that way all you guys with hard working kids are the minority and unique which is something to be proud of.

do you guys happen to be soccer moms? lol

[Anne FS]

ewwwwwww......soccer mom. NEVER. EVER.

[claire]

Is the problem work ethic?
Or the greed of the business owners who try to exploit their workers?
Or the expectations of our young people?
Or a world that is changing and an industry that is dependent upon the old ways?
Or what?

Jsalem, I think you make an important point with:
"The world has changed/an industry dependent on old ways"

I work as sales mgt. in the "glamorous" :lol: fashion industry. This same issue about the difficulty finding "good" help is often discussed.

I see alot of similarities with the "horse industry".
-Both are industries that are very "glamorous" from the outside looking in.
-Both are notorious for minimum wage paying entry-level/customer service/operations jobs.

Used to be that there was no problem getting excellent/hardworking/ethical employees to fill these jobs: For the love of Fashion (or Horses) you would find women who would take a part-time job
for minimum wage and the perks of discounts on clothes(free board) and the opportunity to work with something you love fashion/horses.

These days in order to keep your head above water:
-many of these people are now the sole household income/sole means of health benefits
-many households now HAVE to have two FT incomes coming in,
-many potential retirees cannot afford to retire and must continue to work FT,
-many singles are working a FT AND a PT job to keep their head above water.

I know in my industry these economical developments have seriously affected the pool of ethical, hardworking employees we used to be able to choose from. I can only surmise (from my trainer's experience and from many of the B/O's reponses here) that it is true in the horse industry also.

I don't think that most of the trainers/BOs are "making out" and driving luxury cars (maybe a few BNT's at the top :D )
Rather, as my trainer explained to me she loves working with horses; so much so that she is willing to forgo a more $$$$ lifestyle.


I don't think any BO's/trainers are getting rich off board (rather if they can break even they are doing OK) I think any profit (that can be made) comes from shows/lessons/horse sales. Again break-even is probably the norm???
And there is a limit to the amount you can raise your prices to pass on every increasing costs. The price people will pay for a luxury depends on what the market will bear. :( With the economy these days, it would seem that all but the very top percent of people are just working hard to "stay even". :no:

I have read on this BB many stories of what sacrifices people make to have horses in their life. And it is very hard to explain to "non-horsey" people why we are so passionate and willing to make sacrifices to be around these amazing creatures! :)

[Jsalem]

Very interesting analogy. And thank you for getting this discussion back on track- away from the sniping.

[ise@ssl]

Well I'm sure there are people working hard to keep their head above water BUT - there are many more people LIVING WAY BEYOND THEIR MEANS. They choose to live a lifestyle THEY CANNOT AFFORD. So some people should take a good hard look at the life they are living based on their ability to find a paying job and ask themselves....what am I spending, on what, and what can be eliminated if my current job won't support it.

I also feel strongly that people seem to feel having children when they can't support them means - the rest of society has to fill in the blanks. I don't agree.

I've seen people on this board and others say - OH! I live in an expensive area - well MOVE. They say NO - I don't want to leave my family and friends - then why should employers have to pay more than they can. People want to have one car per person, lots of electronics, cell phones, vacations, and don't forget TONS OF CLOTHES, etc. and never take a really hard look at whether or not they can AFFORD all this.

And boo hoo - they have to work an extra part-time job - who hasn't to get started and build up some money in savings. This is the norm, not the exception.

[MeredithTX]

I would love, love, love to have the jobs many of you are describing. I was a stall cleaner/unpaid slave in high school and I loved every minute of it. The BO was wonderful and showed his appreciation for us by giving us each project horses that were "ours" to work with, bringing breakfast on weekend mornings, sometimes picking up lunch too, and just generally being a great boss. I learned so much from that time. I went off to college and took a WS position there. My BO was horrible, but I was grateful for the experience and worked my ass off. More often than not, I was the first to arrive and the last to leave. I was the one cleaning stalls and refilling water buckets because the illegal guy didn't care. Now I desperately want to work around horses fill time, but I have been unable to find a position despite my many years of experience. Instead, I have to work a regular job which I hate because I'm bored out of my mind at this desk and then spend my evenings and weekends teaching, training, and horse-sitting in my own side business.

In my area, there two places hiring right now. One wants a general barn worker at a huge facility with 100+ horses for $7.00, no housing, no benefits, no board or even a discount. The other provides housing and utilities, but it is full-time, 7 days a week for only $800/month. People just can't live like that! Even without paying rent, my car and insurance, plus groceries, plus gas, plus cell phone, plus all of the miscellaneous expenses one incurs over a month certainly exceeds $800! So here I sit, hoping for the day when I can finally find a real opportunity. :(

[Trixie]

I've seen people on this board and others say - OH! I live in an expensive area - well MOVE.

Okay. So how are barn owners in that area going to find staff? If all the lower-paid people should MOVE because their area is expensive and they can't really afford to live there... who's left to work for peanuts? Teenagers that live at home? Illegal immigrants that have to share a house with fifteen other people to pay rent?

Also, if you live in an expensive area, everything is more costly, but most salaries tend to be higher to offset that, or most of the people that live there would move. This includes board - high cost area = high board.

And boo hoo - they have to work an extra part-time job - who hasn't to get started and build up some money in savings.

It's been stressed - repeatedly - that working with horses is NOT a 9-5. How do you expect someone to get another job to supplement their income when one day they're working 6-5, the next day 7-9? Horse work isn't consistent.
Also, working with horses is a job that's incredibly hard physical work - so after 12 hours of mucking, etc, your average person is not going to have the energy to go and stand behind a bar or something.

[poltroon]

Let's not forget the point of this thread. The issue at hand is work ethic. I think we can all agree that working with horses is a labor of love. But in one corner we have the employers that say, "I pay a fair wage and can't find workers that are willing to fill the positions that require the same sacrifices I'm willing to make- long hours, but honest and rewarding work with the animals." In the other corner, the employees: "I can't survive on what you're offering, so I'm going to corporate america. I'll just pay board."

Is the problem work ethic?
Or the greed of the business owners who try to exploit their workers?
Or the expectations of our young people?
Or a world that is changing and an industry that is dependent upon the old ways?
Or what?

I think the real problem is that the US has changed.

Kids don't live near horse farms any more. Housing has skyrocketed. As an example, in 1978 my mom bought a house that cost roughly 1 1/2 times her salary as a teacher. Last year she sold that same house for roughly 10x the salary of a teacher.

Health care and health insurance has skyrocketed. Now if you don't have a magic insurance card, there are some doctors who won't see you even if you pay cash up front.

This is an interesting essay I came across, vaguely related, about how values in terms of work and the economy have changed:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/24/14450/565

There are good kids out there, plenty of them - but their parents want them to have a secure future, getting into the best schools and getting a career. Who wants to see their 30 year old child spending their life laboring 6 days a week at a risky job for $8 an hour with no health insurance, and no opportunity for savings, especially knowing that if said child gets hurt, that mom & dad will have to figure out how to pay the medical bills?

[buryinghill2]

The fact is, the work ethic is changing all around. I'm an RT at a major medical center. We get paid biweekly. The RN's in our hospital get an extra $200 per paycheck if they have not called in sick the previous two weeks. We all work 12 hour shifts, so two weeks is 6 days of work. In other words, IF they can manage to do their job, meaning not call in sick for two weeks, they get extra compensation for that!
I have never called in sick to any job when it was not legit. It boggles my mind that that we have reached a point that people have to get an extra $200 "reward" just for doing their job.
In the horse business, more money will probably not get you harder workers. Treating your employees fairly and with respect is the most important thing.

[claire]

This is an interesting essay I came across, vaguely related, about how values in terms of work and the economy have changed:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/24/14450/565


poltroon, Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

ise@ssl, I agree that many people live beyond their means.
Maybe because they grew up with such "luxuries" and so consider them basic "necessities"?
Or due to illness/job loss don't have the income they once did but consider "luxuries" "necessities" because they are so used to having them...

I think it takes a very mature person to realise what choices they need to make to live within their means. And certainly, in this world a dollar does not go as far as it once did. (poltroon's example of how a house costs 10X her salary rather than 1 1/2X her salary in her mother's day)

A while ago on this BB someone started a thread on "Can you really afford to own a horse" :D They posited that "Most" people who own a horse are NOT being really fiscally responsible.

And, is the way with this BB, a "heated" discussion ensued! :eek:
What struck me though, was what choices people were making/what they were willing to give up in order to have a horse or work in the horse industry.

In the end we CHOOSE to have horses in our life and make the choice to adjust our lifestyles to accomadate that choice.
We are not ENTITLED to a life with horses and shouldn't be demanding that others "give" us that option on their dollar. :yes:

[ESG]

In the end we CHOOSE to have horses in our life and make the choice to adjust our lifestyles to accomadate that choice.
We are not ENTITLED to a life with horses and shouldn't be demanding that others "give" us that option on their dollar. :yes:

Exactly. Very well put, claire. :yes:

[Angela Freda]

Here's one for you.

BM approached ME to do Sunday morning chores at the barn in exchange for a lesson a week. Please note as my horse sis older and unfit a lesson last about 30 minutes at best.

I have been at it faithfully for a month. Today was to be lesson #2. We had started on a Sunday, and I only have Sat for lessons, so we missed the first one, and another cause I attended a clinic.

Alas I arrived at the today barn to no BM. Her usual Sat. paying lesson student had ridden on Friday instead, and since she had no PAYING lessons she decided to take the day off. No phone call, no message of any kind as to WHEN we would make this up. And of course, how can I possibly NOT do chores tomorrow. Just because she feels I am of no importance, the horses know better.

This will be my last Sunday, of course. But there you go. For some reason she had decided that my work was not worthy of the payment she had agreed to originally and just changes the rules willy-nilly. Typical.

[Foxygrl516]

Are you sure you live in NY??? Sounds all too familiar........

[Angela Freda]

Nope I'm pretty sure I am in NY.
I'm also pretty sure that the BM is going to love dragging her butt out of bed to feed, etc on Sudays... no one gets a free ride forever.

[ise@ssl]

Sorry that house cost relative to salary is apples & oranges when you look at our parents and now.

What the typical family expected as a house in the 1950's is not what the typical family expects now. Not in average square footage, #of bedrooms, bathrooms, appliances, etc. etc. etc. Apparantely every single kid from birth has to have their own room, TV, video, computer, bathroom, plus a huge family room and lots of room in the driveway to park all those cars that the family owns. Sorry the statistics and facts on the American home doesn't support the comparison.

I actually feel this one bedroom/bathroom and lots of stuff per kid has made being selfish a lifestyle. It creates this attitude of territory and ownship to the point of some kids being absolutely obnoxious about having all their own THINGS and space.

[ESG]

Hardly surprising, when you have their enabling parents buying into the mindset that Poopsiekins has to have everything they want, all the time. Hope Poopsiekins' parents have put away a lot of money, to support P when s/he is older. Otherwise, Poopsiekins will end up living under a bridge, unless some good Samaritan deigns to instill a work ethic. :winkgrin:

[Silly Mommy]

In the horse business, more money will probably not get you harder workers. Treating your employees fairly and with respect is the most important thing.


I agree %100!!!!

I have one of those soft kids - not by my choosing. She has JUST (at the age of 10) earned her first horse even though I am a trainer with a large place of my own and all the resources. Shhhh - don't tell, it's her Christmas present. We have always had the deal, she had to fulfill certain requirements before she EARNED a horse. She understands and will now put in the work for it.

GTG - more later- sorry the dog just puked.

I do find it rare that a child have the work ethic that I did, and most of the teenagers I deal with want everything handed to them. I have had several working students and only one was the real deal - the rest were screw-offs and resented the fact that they didn't get to ride all of the time.

[Sabine]

I respectfully disagree. I have seen people take very well paid horse jobs ($2500 month cash, plus a place to live, plus health and dental) and still be slackers. I have to agree with the folks who say today's world is simply full of slackers! Doesn't matter what you pay. I see it in the corporate world AND the horse world. People who take off more than a reasonable amount of time. People who come in late and leave early. People who cannot be trusted to do as you requested the moment your back is turned. People who lie and say they did work they didn't do. This a wide-ranging problem not specific to the horse industry. It has to do with poor parenting and parents who don't ever want their kids to dislike them, so they do not discipline and they do not demand that the child do as they are told. If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.


hate to tell you- and I live where you live- that there are still good folks out there- lots of them- but it goes with the folks that they work for..a lot has to do with human dynamics...the old slave world is not here anymore- Hello anyone- have you noticed- read the Bill of Rights and get real!!
The good folks are smart enough to hang out with the good folks- those that treat them well NOT only financially but mainly on a HUMAN level...!! that is the key... and I agree with Gayla being a major recruiter in this area- it all has to do with finding the right lid for each kettle...and many good workers today are smart enough to not put up with stuff that they don't have to put up with! (check the legislation- it's all very clear and actually fair!)

So yes- I agree with those that side with the workers- it has to be fair and reasonable and there are good workers out there- you have to put the effort in to find them and even if on a resume someone looks good- you still have to do a lot of work to verify that the personality, the work habits, the communication and the style mesh with your operation. Culture is key.

btw- that parenting remark is really inappropriate...not sure you ever raised a child- most likely not- if you did- I hope yours turned out to your satisfaction- because I can tell you- that it is a real challenge to raise a child today and make sure they continue the core values- the environment has changed a lot from when I was a child and the possibilities to loose good values and respect are inumerable...so get off your high horse and cool off a tad...sounds to me like you are one of those 30something hottotrot managers that knows best- no matter what...:((

[hundredacres]

Poltroon, and there are people that would love to have a beautiful facility in a convenient location with board fencing and lush grass, and free choice hay and best quality feeds and deep bedding and groomed arenas and happy workers with their benefits- for $350 per month. Dear, it's not possible!

Absolutely.

Hard workers may be hard to find, but probably because these times are different to live in.

[ESG]

So yes- I agree with those that side with the workers- it has to be fair and reasonable and there are good workers out there- you have to put the effort in to find them and even if on a resume someone looks good- you still have to do a lot of work to verify that the personality, the work habits, the communication and the style mesh with your operation. Culture is key.

Well, I truly wish you'd send some here to Texas. The best workers I've dealt with here have been illegals, and we all know where that path leads. I've gone on yardandgroom.com, and equistaff.com, in search of experienced help who'll take a reasonable salary and a nice private place to live, for basically part time work. The majority that I came up with, from those who painted themselves to be included in the qualified pool, were recent graduates that wanted $25K - $50K per year, with full benefits. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen in any agricultural industry, and damned few corporate ones. You, as a recruiter, would know this. :winkgrin:

btw- that parenting remark is really inappropriate...not sure you ever raised a child- most likely not- if you did- I hope yours turned out to your satisfaction- because I can tell you- that it is a real challenge to raise a child today and make sure they continue the core values- the environment has changed a lot from when I was a child and the possibilities to loose good values and respect are inumerable...so get off your high horse and cool off a tad...sounds to me like you are one of those 30something hottotrot managers that knows best- no matter what...:((

Now, that was uncalled for. I didn't see anything in catknsn's post to warrant that type of attack. You'd have to either live in a vacuum or be downright idiotic to not notice that some kids have had great parents who've instilled a work ethic in their kids, and others definitely do not. IME, she was right on the money in her evaluation of 90% of the prospective workers that apply for barn jobs. I've managed barns in Georgia and Texas, and had two barns here and one in Florida, and can tell you that it's the same all over; the "kids" are mostly (not all), lazy, unmotivated, and with a crippling sense of entitlement. Kudos to you if you've raised one that isn't - it's a rare accomplishment these days. I often think that parents who pull this off should give parenting lessons to those who haven't. Of course, if they haven't started from when the kid's still in diapers, it would be mostly wasted effort. ;)

[Sabine]

Well, I truly wish you'd send some here to Texas. The best workers I've dealt with here have been illegals, and we all know where that path leads. I've gone on yardandgroom.com, and equistaff.com, in search of experienced help who'll take a reasonable salary and a nice private place to live, for basically part time work. The majority that I came up with, from those who painted themselves to be included in the qualified pool, were recent graduates that wanted $25K - $50K per year, with full benefits. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen in any agricultural industry, and damned few corporate ones. You, as a recruiter, would know this. :winkgrin:



Now, that was uncalled for. I didn't see anything in catknsn's post to warrant that type of attack. You'd have to either live in a vacuum or be downright idiotic to not notice that some kids have had great parents who've instilled a work ethic in their kids, and others definitely do not. IME, she was right on the money in her evaluation of 90% of the prospective workers that apply for barn jobs. I've managed barns in Georgia and Texas, and had two barns here and one in Florida, and can tell you that it's the same all over; the "kids" are mostly (not all), lazy, unmotivated, and with a crippling sense of entitlement. Kudos to you if you've raised one that isn't - it's a rare accomplishment these days. I often think that parents who pull this off should give parenting lessons to those who haven't. Of course, if they haven't started from when the kid's still in diapers, it would be mostly wasted effort. ;)

Sorry- I took that one personally and yes I have raised 3 of those and if they acted the way you described- they would be dead. I don't place farmworkers-but I know a lot of folks at the barns and they are mostly mexican and they are in many cases very good workers. I realize that the demand attitude of the workers is making it hard for barn owners to squeeze out a living- but reality is that unless you do the work yourself- you need to raise your boarding rates- which brings us right to the issue: cost of living...it should also be reflected in boarding prices- especially when you live in an area where cheaper labor is hard to come by.

[Adamantane]

I haven't been able to read through the whole thread. One or more people may have made this point earlier.

Jobs -- any jobs, horse-related or not -- do not just fall out of the sky.

Although this gets fuzzed up in the media and by politicians, jobs aren't created to meet the needs of workers. They are created by a potential employer to get some task(s) accomplished that s/he can't or doesn't wish perform him/herself.

The pay for the job is almost solely dependent upon the economic value of the task that the employer needs performed.

Unfortunately from the standpoint of individual workers, it has nothing whatever to do with whether the pay is adequate to meet somebody's living needs.

If the business cannot generate enough revenue to at least break even in the long run, it cannot survive. What it pays gets backed out from whatever revenue it produces.

It's not because employers are nice or generous, although some are. Generous pay for the same work may come about because the services are worth it to the business/owner, and because the owner is enlightened enough to know that by paying well, if he can afford to, he will get better, more talented and more dedicated workers and avoid the nightmare hassle of turnover or unreliable workers. Paying more doesn't guarantee that he will -- hence the original poster's complaint -- but paying very little almost gaurantees that he will have problems with getting and retaining good workers.

If what the job's economic value justifies leads to pay below what anybody can afford to accept, the business needs either to find another way to get the job done -- a lot of so-called 'sweat equity' in businesses where the owner does it himself -- or run the business at a loss which is not sustainable, or do without some activities and/or without the potential employee. (A minimum wage law unfortunately simply forces jobs that can't justify the wages to disappear. Most businesses aren't big corporations, they are smaller businesses without deep pockets, which operate on narrow margins.)

For jobs that pay more, it's because the economic value of the work is enough to justify the pay.

I feel sorry for the predicament of owners who cannot run at a loss and because of their cost and pricing structure cannot afford to pay sufficiently well to get reliable, capable workers. They are stuck squeezed in the middle, and their low pay is not because they are 'cheap' (although as with anything there are people who are cheapskates, like consumers who buy solely on price and ignore quality or service).

Unfortunately the economic realities of this appear in the form of individual people with faces who need to deal with it. When the numbers don't work, that makes it tough all around.

Oddly enough some operation that generates enough revenue to afford to pay its workers more by far than other businesses can, doesn't necessarily make everyone's pay increase in the area "because of competition." The other businesses that are more marginal can't match the pay and end up with less experienced or valuable workers, or if they do match it, run at a loss and finally go out of business, taking their jobs with them.

Expensive as horses are to board for an owner, the labor to maintain them at a barn just can't command the kind of wages that provide a plush lifestyle, no matter how good or talented the workers. It's a rotten deal all around.

As Jimmy Carter once said -- that and some other things cost him the election in 1980 -- life isn't always fair.:sadsmile: What makes up the difference for many is the opportunity to be around and learn about horses. If it weren't for that, I think the horse 'industry' would have collapsed long ago and horses would revert to being solely a rich person's sport.

[claire]

As Jimmy Carter once said -- that and some other things cost him the election in 1980 -- life isn't always fair.:sadsmile: What makes up the difference for many is the opportunity to be around and learn about horses. If it weren't for that, I think the horse 'industry' would have collapsed long ago and horses would revert to being solely a rich person's sport.

Adamantane, Very well stated post. I think this last point bears some consideration...:yes:

A friend made the comparison of of careers in acting and horse training. You just ARE NOT going to make "Big Bucks" as you are a "Journeyman" learning the trade.
And I do think the world is changing in that it fewer people are choosing these journeyman type of careers/crafts. Let alone trying to make a living in a private agriculture business.

[ESG]

Sorry- I took that one personally and yes I have raised 3 of those and if they acted the way you described- they would be dead.

No worries. I understand your frustration. There are soooo many "parents" out there that aren't, that it must be excruciating to those of you who are. ;)

I don't place farmworkers-but I know a lot of folks at the barns and they are mostly mexican and they are in many cases very good workers.

My experience, exactly. Most of the guys that come up from Mexico and central America have grown up with livestock of some kind or another, often horses. Since they're raised in an agrarian environment, you don't have to teach them what's expected, since they already know. But since the government has made it so hard to hire illegals, and it's so hard and such a long process to get a green card for most of these folks, you're playing with fire if you hire one. I hate it, but there you go. :(

And the kids that grew up with horses aren't usually the ones that want entry-level stable positions, because they also know what's involved, and don't want to do the "grunt work" to pay their dues. It's usually the kids who've graduated with <ESG zipping up flame suit here> equine science degrees, who've had little other exposure to the industry, that seem to think that they should be hired out of school at $25K per year with full bennies and housing. There are a few exceptions to this, such as my absolute jewel of an assistant, but she was raised by a parent who taught her how to work, and she had to find her own way to get to ride. She also worked every summer at a different farm, in a different facet of the industry, and got priceless experience from each. It also taught her what sort of hours are commonplace, and what to expect with her own business. And no, I can't clone her, although I wish I could.

I realize that the demand attitude of the workers is making it hard for barn owners to squeeze out a living- but reality is that unless you do the work yourself- you need to raise your boarding rates- which brings us right to the issue: cost of living.

But you can't. That's the rub. As Jsalem said, if we as barn owners were to raise our boarding rates enough to TRULY reflect our costs, and build in a tiny profit for ourselves as well as paying our help, no one could afford to board, much less pay for lessons and training. And if we do the work ourselves, there is no time/energy left for lessons/training. :no:

..it should also be reflected in boarding prices- especially when you live in an area where cheaper labor is hard to come by.

I don't think there's an area in the country where cheaper labor is plentiful. If it were, we'd probably not be having this discussion. But I don't think that's the crux of the problem. It's the kids that seem to think that, because they want to make a living doing something "fun" or "glamorous", why then, it should be made available to them. But the truth of the matter is that the industry pays badly at all except the very top level, and that's not going to change anytime soon. And until the newcomers to the industry accept that fact, then the rants/vents about lazy laborers and parsimonious barn owners will continue. :sigh:

JMO. :cool:

[BoysNightOut]

But the truth of the matter is that the industry pays badly at all except the very top level, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Than as I stated before...accept the fact that you get what you pay for. If you want hard working full-time workers, yet can't pay them something that they can make ends meet on, either do the work yourself or don't have a barn in the first place.

Quite honestly, I don't think money and benefits are as much of an issue as respect is. All of this complaining about "kids today" being spoiled is pretty funny, imo. It makes one sound like the old grandparent who whined "Well back in my day, I had to walk 25 miles over hills, in the snow to school". Give me a break. I prolly come from a situation where you would say I'm spoiled....my parents have always supported me up until I graduated school, even now I live at home until I move out in a few weeks.....but I also bust my butt at my job at a H/J barn. I always make sure everything I do is done well. And I don't slack off or complain. So guess that whole argument doesn't really fly all the time.

All barn workers want is to be treated with respect. The whole attitude that barn help generally doesn't know anything and that the BO is superior is what pisses people off. If you are having issues finding good help, why don't you examine how you treat your workers? Maybe people don't want to be treated as some dumb idiot who just shovels crap all day. I love my boss now.....they treat me like a person who knows about horses. And right now, I clean stalls, feed, t/o, and give meds. But even though my job is physically tough, I love it and wouldn't give it up for anything all because I work for great people. I am always thanked for my work, and that simple act of gratitude makes me want to work hard for them.

As for the whole paying dues thing, I agree, people should have to start out at the bottom, cleaning stalls, etc. But if you offer no room for advancement, and just expect someone to muck stalls 6x a week for minimum wage, than yeah, I don't blame a worker for slacking off. What is there to motivate that worker....nothing.

Concerning those who graduate with equine degrees.....you shouldn't just look at the degree, but at the persons background as well. I got my equine degree....but I also have been around horses since I was 8. I have been a barn help at several different barns over 15 years. So when I feel as though I want a barn job with more responsibility and a little higher pay, it's not bc I have a degree, it's bc I feel as though I have paid my dues. But you are right, I don't think kids should get their "degree" then demand a BM job with lots of money. But then, people with little horse background don't tend to make it through an equine program as I saw at my 2 colleges.

I honestly don't understand how BO's feel they have a right to complain about finding good barn help if they refuse to accept the fact that life is expensive for everyone. If you want a good, reliable full time worker, you have to make it worth their time. And if you can't or won't raise board or lesson rates to accomodate that.......then don't own a barn in the first place.

It's so hypocritical to say "barn help should make sacrafices and scrape on by with costs of living".....then whine about how you can't make the barn run financially yourself.

The world has changed and if BO's don't want to change with it and keep up with the "well, people need to make sacrafices, bla bla bla", then they either won't last long or will just continue to whine and moan about "kids these days" and never find good help when there is plenty of good help out there.

[equusrocks]

Thank you cyberspace for eating my post. :cry:

Here I go again. As I left work last night, I was thinking about this thread. I am paid well and get super benefits. Things have gone downhill there, due to a few reasons, and I filed a grievance...Anyway, between being shorted in my paycheck, and being "kicked out" of my work area into a much more difficult one, I'm done. It wasn't because of a lack of performance. I can outproduce anyone who works in my old work area. I can only guess as to what's going on. It doesn't matter. It's not worth the stress. I called my old job, which I left for this much better paying one. It was a fun job, and there wasn't a day that I didn't like it. It got stressful at times, but what job didn't? It was nothing like this. Old boss guy says he'll have me back as soon as he takes care of a couple things, which should be very soon. I remember, as I left working for him, in favor of the job I have now, he said: "I'm sad to see you go, but good for you. I know it pays much better, and wish you the best. It's just tough, because there aren't many kids who are willing to really work these days." I was 21 and hardly thought of myself as a kid, but anyhow, I'd forgotten that. It's a mom and pop place, weird hours, mercy to Mother Nature work, but hey, I can finally go after my want to become a farrier, and I won't have to deal with the emotional turmoil that came with current jobs recent happenings.

So I take back the "why leave a good paying job for hard work, cold weather, and poor pay?" comment. Lesson learned, it's not always about that...:yes:

Good luck finding good help you guys. I think now appreciation and an understanding boss is probably what wins. At least in my mind...I'll be much shorter on money, no showing for me, and no movies, or buying stuff on ebay, but it's not the end of the world. ;) Just a change in lifestyle.

[ESG]

Than as I stated before...accept the fact that you get what you pay for. If you want hard working full-time workers, yet can't pay them something that they can make ends meet on, either do the work yourself or don't have a barn in the first place.

Oh, right. You've had how many barns? And run them so well that you can make an unequivocal statement like this? Riiiigghhtt. :rolleyes:

Quite honestly, I don't think money and benefits are as much of an issue as respect is. All of this complaining about "kids today" being spoiled is pretty funny, imo. It makes one sound like the old grandparent who whined "Well back in my day, I had to walk 25 miles over hills, in the snow to school". Give me a break. I prolly come from a situation where you would say I'm spoiled....my parents have always supported me up until I graduated school, even now I live at home until I move out in a few weeks.....but I also bust my butt at my job at a H/J barn. I always make sure everything I do is done well. And I don't slack off or complain. So guess that whole argument doesn't really fly all the time.
When you get out on your own, come talk to us. Until then, in your shoes, I'd be really, really careful to make my words soft and sweet, so that it won't be quite so traumatic when I have to eat them. :p

All barn workers want is to be treated with respect. The whole attitude that barn help generally doesn't know anything and that the BO is superior is what pisses people off.

No - all barn workers want a big salary and benefits. Being treated with respect is what every smart BO/BM does anyway, and that doesn't keep help. And please show me where, on this thread, that anyone has said anything about barn help not knowing anything. If they didn't know anything, they wouldn't get hired. Do please read for comprehension before commenting. You'll look a lot smarter. :D

If you are having issues finding good help, why don't you examine how you treat your workers? Maybe people don't want to be treated as some dumb idiot who just shovels crap all day. I love my boss now.....they treat me like a person who knows about horses. And right now, I clean stalls, feed, t/o, and give meds. But even though my job is physically tough, I love it and wouldn't give it up for anything all because I work for great people. I am always thanked for my work, and that simple act of gratitude makes me want to work hard for them.
And why do you ASSume that anyone that has trouble finding good help, automatically treats their help like crap? I certainly don't. The last WS I had living in, lasted exactly a week. She had her own fully furnished, brand new apartment in the barn. She had six stalls to clean once a day, and six horses to feed twice a day, and turnout. I didn't care when the stalls got done (morning or afternoon), as long as they did get done. My stalls are fully matted, I use pelleted bedding, the manure pit is 20 feet from the barn, and the stalls have automatic waterers. (It takes my current assistant about an hour and a half to feed, muck, rake the aisle, and turn out.) In return, she got the apartment rent free, had time for a part time job, and could attend her classes at the local community college, that was also about a 15 minute drive away. She got a small weekly salary and a lesson a day. But she felt like she was working too hard, and didn't like being responsible for the horses. This, despite coming to work with me (paid) for three days prior to being hired and moving in, and being asked repeatedly if the job were to her liking. I didn't add anything to her list of duties in the week she was here, but it was all just too much for the poor delicate flower. :rolleyes: So don't lecture us about how we treat our barn help.

As for the whole paying dues thing, I agree, people should have to start out at the bottom, cleaning stalls, etc. But if you offer no room for advancement, and just expect someone to muck stalls 6x a week for minimum wage, than yeah, I don't blame a worker for slacking off. What is there to motivate that worker....nothing.
Please show me anyplace on this thread where anyone has said they pay their workers minimum wage. Do please read for comprehension.

Concerning those who graduate with equine degrees.....you shouldn't just look at the degree, but at the persons background as well. I got my equine degree....but I also have been around horses since I was 8. I have been a barn help at several different barns over 15 years. So when I feel as though I want a barn job with more responsibility and a little higher pay, it's not bc I have a degree, it's bc I feel as though I have paid my dues. But you are right, I don't think kids should get their "degree" then demand a BM job with lots of money. But then, people with little horse background don't tend to make it through an equine program as I saw at my 2 colleges.
You're ASSuming again. No one has said that they just look at the degree. I said that IME, it's the kids with the equine studies degrees that tend to think they can start out at $25K plus bennies per year, because of that degree. And even you know that that's not on. :winkgrin:

I honestly don't understand how BO's feel they have a right to complain about finding good barn help if they refuse to accept the fact that life is expensive for everyone. If you want a good, reliable full time worker, you have to make it worth their time. And if you can't or won't raise board or lesson rates to accomodate that.......then don't own a barn in the first place.
And you make this statement, drawing from your vast experience of barn ownership and managment? Making facetious remarks like this just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Apparently, the requirements for your equine degree didn't include economics; otherwise, you'd never make such a silly statement. :p


It's so hypocritical to say "barn help should make sacrafices and scrape on by with costs of living".....then whine about how you can't make the barn run financially yourself.
Who said that?

The world has changed and if BO's don't want to change with it and keep up with the "well, people need to make sacrafices, bla bla bla", then they either won't last long or will just continue to whine and moan about "kids these days" and never find good help when there is plenty of good help out there.
No - the world has not changed. And there is not "plenty of good help out there". If you'd ever actually managed or owned a barn, you'd know that. Until you do, belt up and quit making silly statements if you want people to take you seriously.

[nightsong]

I've managed barns in Georgia and Texas, and had two barns here and one in Florida, and can tell you that it's the same all over; the "kids" are mostly (not all), lazy, unmotivated, and with a crippling sense of entitlement.


I believe it's that sense of entitlement that IS crippling today's children (and it's been going on for so long tht many of htem are not children any longer), due to the "self-esteem" fanatacism tht seems to have infiltrated not only chld-raising but the school system, camp counseling, and ANYTHING to do with children The thinking seems to be that telling a child they are GOOD ALL THE TIME (completely IGNORING the accomplishment thing) is THE WAY to raise ALL kids. No WONDER they think that EVERYTHING they do is good -- it's the way they've been taught.

[BoysNightOut]

Oh please, ESG. My post wasn't directed only at you, but at the industry as a whiole. I don't need to have my own barn to know common business sense. You want good help, you have to pay for it. Nobody in their right mind is going to take on a hard, physical job working long hours for crap pay. Common sense, lol.

When you get out on your own, come talk to us. Until then, in your shoes, I'd be really, really careful to make my words soft and sweet, so that it won't be quite so traumatic when I have to eat them.

Haha, riiight. I have sense enough to not open a barn unless I can afford good help, or am willing to do it myself....I'm not gonna set myself up for needless complaing about lack of good help, so don't worry, I don't see myself eating my words. Oh, and I already have a great barn job, so don't have to worry about what I say. But thanks, lol.

Please show me where, on this thread, that anyone has said any such thing. Do please read for comprehension before commenting. You'll look a lot smarter.

Never said anybody on this thread mentioned such a thing. I drew that from what I've seen in real life. So yeah, I think my reading skills are ok....and as for smarts, how intelligent I appear to you doesn't really cause me much concern. Sorry I didn't use the sarcasm you chose to use, but if that's how you want to be, I can play along with it.

This, despite coming to work with me (paid) for three days prior to being hired and moving in, and being asked repeatedly if the job were to her liking. I didn't add anything to her list of duties in the week she was here, but it was all just too much for the poor delicate flower. So don't lecture us about how we treat our barn help.

Well that's a shame then. But don't ASSume all people are like this flower, that's what I'm pissed about. Just because this girl didn't work out doesn't mean all barn help is crappy. And I didn't say everyone treats their barn help like crap, I said to examine how you treat them....maybe their is something you are unintentionally doing that makes them slack on the job. Doesn't mean you are, but you should see the situation from all angles, not just brushing off the barn help sucks. So yeah, I wasn't lecturing you on how you treat your barn help....it was a simple suggestion and observation based on what I've seen before....stop taking it so personally, I wasn't just aiming my previous post at you.

Please show me anyplace on this thread where anyone has said they pay their workers minimum wage. Do please read for comprehension.

Again, my reading skills are fine, thanks. I didn't say anybody here said that. It's simply what I have seen in my years in the industry. So next time, please don't tell me how to read, I'm perfectly capable.

And you make this statement, drawing from your vast experience of barn ownership and managment? Making facetious remarks like this just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Apparently, the requirements for your equine degree didn't include economics; otherwise, you'd never make such a silly statement.

I took many economics and business classes actually, but quite honestly, it's common business sense, as Trixie stated earlier. I don't need to have my own barn to know that, lol. You aren't going to get really good help if you don't make it worth their while. Nobody is going to put in long hours of hard labor for pennies, so if you aren't willing to make it worth it, then that's your problem. So not really so silly, you just apparently don't get it.

Who said that?

It all goes back to earlier posts about "paying dues" and "making sacrafices". In fact, it was you who made the whole shebang about "sacrafices.
And why? Because this is show business, my friend. If you want to be in show business, you sacrifice. Everyone wants to get paid to do what they want to do, rather than what they have to do. Every graduate from Julliard dreams of being a high paid actor, a successful concert musician, or a bankable recording star. Partly because of the money involved, but mostly because that money is made doing something they're passionate about.
And if you want to be in the horse business and do something you love, you can expect to make the same sacrifices as those aspiring actors, singers and musicians do, when they wait tables, clean houses, and park cars.

No - the world has not changed. And there is not "plenty of good help out there". If you'd ever actually managed or owned a barn, you'd know that. Until you do, belt up and quit making silly statements if you want people to take you seriously.

Uh, the world hasn't changed, eh? Let's see....last I checked, the cost of living went up a lot....I don't pay $1.35 for gas anymore, I pay $2.44 now. Cost if health care is crazy expensive, cost to heat up our homes, etc....so don't tell me things haven't changed. And there are plenty of people who would love to work in the equine industry, but never choose to because of it's reputation for long hours & low pay. If the equine industry would be willing to change that, then I'm sure you'd have lots of eager candidates. But oh that's right, it won't change. So then that's the BO's problem now, isn't it.

I've worked in enough barns to have an understanding of how things run. Yes, shavings are expensive, hay is expensive....the world's freakin' expensive, not just for the BO. So if you find that people aren't willing to take a full time job working for not a lot because they have to "make sacrafices", then that's the BO's problem.

And I don't really care if people take me seriously because a lot of what I have said has gone along with what many others on this thread have said. So sorry if you find them silly....but I quite honestly don't really care how seriously you take me....I have a good barn job, I work hard for my boss....but she understands what it takes to find help. You, apparently, need to work on your business sense. Maybe some business classes would help ya.

[ESG]

I've been a pro for nineteen years, thank you. And I don't need business classes to know how to run a barn. You, on the other hand, have no experience running a barn or owning one, and apparently no clue as to how to.. Don't presume to lecture me about how the business works. You look even more foolish than you've already painted yourself to be.

[BoysNightOut]

Well good for you then, lol. I have worked with horses in several barns for 15 years, so don't presume to lecture me either about what good barn help is all about and what it's like to be a barn worker. You look just as foolish to me as I apparently do to you.

Oh well, doesn't bother me any. :-)

[EventingJ]

Apparantly ESG needs to go back and try to survive off of what she thinks barn works should make and no health care! Gee. I have tons of expirience not only running barns but also working for some great trainers, for 10+ years. What do I do now? Oh thats right I'm a med tech because I need health insurance and I'd like to be able to afford to actually own a horse... plus my house!

[Trixie]

So what I'm getting from this is that it is not the barn owner's perogative to subsidize someone else's horse time, there's a certain amount of $ that they can pay for a job, and they don't really care their help gets burned out because they agreed to take the job?

No - the world has not changed. And there is not "plenty of good help out there".

Cost of living sure HAS changed. In my area, we pay our receptionist more then $25K a year and we are not alone. And her ONLY job is to answer the phone and hit the panic button if someone unauthorized comes in. She sits behind a desk, does not risk her life in any way (except that we are a block from the white house, and well, you know). She also has full and total benefits. Adding to that the hassle of replacing her - which is time and effort that we don't have. However - my office is in Washington, DC, where a one bedroom costs more then $1K a month. Cost of living is different everywhere - but a business DOES have to take that into effect - any and all businesses.
I'm sorry if hiring illegals is your only avenue because you can only pay X.
Therefore, I think barn owners, since promotions in this industry are few and far between, really need to make an effort to help their staff improve on their skills. It is VERY frustrating to feel "stuck" no matter how much you love your career. And a career of nothing but repetitive tasks with no chance for advancement will make someone feel stuck.
(I will now add in a disclaimer for all the barn owners that DO help their staff advance their skills yadda yadda yadda - not just "I'm paying them X, they should take it and be GRATEFUL because they get to work with horses" etc etc etc).

We've had multiple barn workers say, in these threads, that when they feel burned out, they have to go.


don't ASSume all people are like this flower, that's what I'm pissed about

This grates on me - how barn owners have one or two unfortunate incidents with people that aren't cut out for the industry and assume that whole generations of "kids today" are like that.
That all being said, of course there is no excuse for lazy workers. But it's not JUST about lazy.

If a child grows up ignoring his parent's requests, he certainly isn't going to be any more obedient to a boss. The difference is, the boss can fire him.
Then FIRE them.


But since the government has made it so hard to hire illegals, and it's so hard and such a long process to get a green card for most of these folks, you're playing with fire if you hire one.
Hmm...

[sid]

If the production costs and labor costs of running ANY business, exceeds what the market will pay for the product or "service" that business is offering -- the business goes out of business.

The horse boarding/training market is simply not bearing the rising costs of hay, bedding, fencing, labor, etc..yet, the majority of farms are struggling to keep their board/training fees reasonable for horse owners.

Unfortunately the costs to keep a horse is no longer reasonable compared what everyone has in their "mind" -- what everyone was used to paying in the recent past.

In my part of the country (very horse country), the COSTS for DAILY care of horses have skyrocketed in the last 6-10 years: Hay prices have almost doubled (biggest cost next to labor) , bedding has gone up at least 20% or more, most BO's pay $10-$12 per hour for stall muckers/feeders (without experience) instead of the $7-8 six years ago. Real estate taxes and liablitity insurance rates have shot up. Lumber for fencing/repair, ditto.

If all BO's could increase their prices to cover these things -- and the VAST majority of the horse owning pubic bear the costs to house and care for horses and the land they're on -- well, this wouldn't be much of an issue, would it? Except for the new work ethic problems these days of our much of labor force (note: I said much, not ALL.)

Employees think they're taking on the chin financially. BO's KNOW they are laying out substantial cash out of their pockets to try to keep it all going...including to employees. Even the horseboarding public feel they are too when BO's increase they board even very modestly to cover their losses for fear of a mass exodus of boarders. We've all heard the bitching about boarding prices on this BB more and more.

This is why you see so many boarding facilities closing down because wisely they can't subsidize losses of these huge new costs on other people's horses, unless they short-cut on what horses need somewhere. Add to that, a shrinking market of people who will work, once-glorious farms may get a little run down. Those that still shine are subsidized by either the BO's work endeavors off the farm, or by limiting themselves to training board -- where training fees subsize horse boarding losses and provide a modest profit for the BO to live on !

So...yes, it IS about economics. Blaming the BO for this economic situation is like blaming a parent who has lost a job for not giving you an allowance....which leads us right back to the "entitlement" issue (wink!).

Round and round and round we go....

[EventingJ]

If you thought you were going to be rich and make a ton of money off your boarding barn then I think I want to take whatever drugs your having :p

Anyways, I DID take economics and I can tell you you will NOT get the employees you want/need when you can not offer them the same rate and benefits as other unskilled worker jobs!

I guess the options would be RAISING board, to afford workers and the increased costs of supplies, or is that just too obvious? I dont understand how you think just because you dont make enough money you can screw over the workers?

[BoysNightOut]

Blaming the BO for this economic situation is like blaming a parent who has lost a job for not giving you an allowance

I don't think anybody is blaming the BO for the economic situation. What I (and others) are blaming them for is thinking that they shouldn't have to go along with economic changes, such as the major increase in the cost of living these days. Sorry if the cost of running a barn is high, but employees are an important part to running many barns and if you can't afford good help and can't/won't do the work yourself, then you shouldn't have a barn....don't complain that there aren't good workers out there.

The good workers are there....they are just the ones who get 9-5 jobs because they know they can't live off of what barns offer.

[sid]

No, of course not Eventer. Do you think that $10-$12/hr is screwing over a stall mucker? Do you think paying out $50K per year in housing, salary, insurance, benefits (like free boarding) for an inexperienced person to bring them along as a barn manager is screwing them over?

There are plenty of people who pay these kind of wages, but not to employees with a chip or a bad attitude, no matter how good they are.

[King's Ransom]

I have owned a small, successful business for more than 10 years and hired (and fired) a few people along the way. I also consult with law firms across the country (notoriously poor employers who consistently complain about poor help and high turn-over, but treat employees like horse poo that got tracked into the firm).

My own assistant has been with us for 8 years and practically ran the company on several occasions when I had personal problems. She came to me some 8 years ago, literally begging for a job. I did not have enough profit to hire a person, or so I thought. I liked her and did not say no, but did not say yes. She kept coming back asking for a job and when I asked her how much $$ she needed, she said $6 / hour. I laughed and said, well, we'll pay you $8 (now that was a few years ago). I also set up a SIMPLE retirement plan, group health insurance, and a schedule of paid holidays and earned vacation. And I gave HER raises before I gave them to myself. She is loyal, capable and trustworthy. She now has profit-sharing.

I have had others that cost me $$ or simply failed to make me more $$. And all of those are gone. I also recently found a WONDERFULLY responsible high school girl to help out in my barn at home. I am paying her $7.50 an hour, and she is thrilled because everyone else wanted to pay her less than minimum wage, or else "barter" for her time. I am thrilled because she is capable and responsible and just fun to have around.

I also have helped multiple dozens of law firms across the country revamp their employment practices and find and keep good staff.

Here is a common hiring problem -- people want to hire someone to make their life easier. They want someone who will do the "dirty" work for low wages (because it's easy, right?) and then they rationalize that they cannot "afford" to pay more. Better thinking -- hire someone to help you make more money. If you are mucking stalls when you could be teaching lessons or training horses, or scoping out a project horse that you could re-sell, then hire someone to muck stalls. Pay that person based on the $$ he or she is helping you earn by freeing up your time. If you have nothing better to do with your time, then you should keep mucking stalls yourself. Actually cleaning a stall is probably not worth very much money if you base it on some scale of expertise or skill required. But it could / should be worth quite a bit if you base it on what it allows you to do to make more $$.

If the economics of running a barn with well-paid help do not work out, then something about the situation needs to change. I consult with small firms all the time that really do not have the $$ to pay for help, but it always means there is something terribly awry with the financial management. Sometimes it means the owner is trying to take too much out of the proceeds.Sometimes the overhead is too high. Sometimes people are working hard, but not smart. Some things may need to be outsourced. Some things may need to be eliminated. Some things may have to be added.

A good accountant / business manager might be able to help identify the problem areas. But the problem is NOT that there is no good help. There is plenty of good help. I am never UNABLE to find good help for my own business or for the businesses of my clients. The problem is almost always about finding the MONEY for good help. And it does NOT help to whine and think that someone should WANT to work for you for low wages. No one is that cute or fun to be around --not even our beloved horses!

[sid]

King's Ransom --

Have you ever run a horse farm as a business operation with dozens of horses? A breeding operation, a foaling operation, a boarding operation -- caring for other peoples' horses? With your clients in and out all day long. Tending to each living creature 24/7? The economic and staffing dynamics are vastly other businesses

That was discussed at length a few miles back on this interesting thread. In fact, a prior post I discussed my career in running successful businesses for 30 years (in much the same way you describe yours), with little if any turnover. Like you, I too have a track record in running successful companies with happy and satisfied employees.

When I had a few horses at home, having a teenager to muck some stalls for $7.50 or work for barter (lessons) was fine.

But the same model doesn't work in the professional horse industry -- due to the ecomomics and time involved in 24/7 care of these self-destructive but wonderful creatures.

As I said, the market is not bearing the real cost of services of horse care.

[2ndyrgal]

own our own business and also our own farm. I pay the guys who wash my cars and keep the lot clean $12/hr plus time and a half for overtime and paid health insurance. And damned if they don't quit when it gets too hot or too cold or too wet or too whatever. Now, they don't have to be OUTSIDE to do this or at least most of it and we buy them proper boots and coveralls and gloves, buy their lunch a time or two a week and have to darn near retrain them every day. "yes, we put the flags out and make sure everything has gas everyday, not just yesterday". We pay our manager (and we are a small mom and pop business) over $50K per year plus benefits and while she had more to do when we started than she has now and was making less, she is now pushing us to hire some additional staff as she has "too much to do". We live in an area where people with $7/hr skills want $12/hr. Don't tell me if I pay them better and treat them better they will perform better, I have, they don't they're outta there. If I have to hold your hand and wipe your nose and kiss your *** then I'm going to do it myself and put the money in my pocket. What it comes down to is this, ESG I want that job (as long as I can bring the husband and the corgi) and Boysnightout, well my dear, you are quite obviously a child, and while you may have worked and studied, what remains is that until you have been the person signing the paychecks and paying the bills, you have not a leg to stand on. The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work. There are some areas with a lack of skilled or unskilled labor and a such a high level of competition for those jobs that good help is hard to find. I have been trying for 3 years to find some people to do the crap jobs (I consider vast amounts of paperwork to be more noxious than stall cleaning) without success. We pay far above the industry standard and treat our employees like valuable team members. And to thank us, we get taken advantage of at every possible opportunity, because they know we need them. If the price of board were raised to truly reflect the cost increases in the industry, half of the people that said that BO's should just suck it up would be forced into working a second job to afford their board bills. Maybe they could clean some stalls or something.....

[BoysNightOut]

Actually, at 23, I think it's considered "young adult." Oh, and I do pay bills....my own, which is why I can easily say most barn jobs don't let workers make ends meet which is why the good workers don't want barn jobs. And I don't need to own a barn to understand the difficulties in running one....as stated before, common business sense.

Sorry your workers quit, but what I am trying to get across is just because some people out there are crappy employees, doesn't mean everybody is. I wish people would stop lumping all workers in together as "lousy help" just because of a few bad incidents.

But really, the name calling of "a child" when I haven't even said anything to you....grow up. Whose the child now.

Anyways, since I have to wake up at 5:15am to go take care of horses at my job, I am bowing out of this fight since it's just going in circles. Barn owners don't pay enough to let workers make ends meet and all barn help sucks.....so be it, lol.

[Trixie]

most BO's pay $10-$12 per hour for stall muckers/feeders (without experience) instead of the $7-8 six years ago. Real estate taxes and liablitity insurance rates have shot up. Lumber for fencing/repair, ditto.

FWIW - $25,000 a year is $13 an hour (not far off $12/hour).
It's not an unliveable salary by any stretch in most parts of the country.

However, $8.50 an hour is about $16,000 a year.
At least in my neck of the woods, without housing or bennies, that's a nearly impossible salary to live on. Even at entry level, even if you do advance. As I said before, add housing, board, or bennies in and it's a completely different story.

Oh, and I based that on a 40 hour week. I know that's not perfect, but so it goes.



The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work.
It's up to the barn owner to make a business model that does work, one way or another. I do agree, on many levels, with what King's Ransom said - how much income can you generate in the time it would take for you to do the grunt work? How much peace of mind is $12/hour worth? Or giving up a room in your house and making an extra portion of dinner for someone you pay $10 an hour (Jsalem's $400/week + no rent).
As I've said a thousand times, there's ways to make the situation liveable - but expecting people to find a way to live on nothing and then bitching about never having good help is *obviously* not working.

[sid]

What's so ironic is that most BO's I know LOVE DOING THE "CRAP" JOBS if they only had the time for it !! And believe me, most of us have done more of them than ANY employee for a longer period of time.

I've always loved it because it is physically invigorating and allows me to let go of the weight of responsiblity of doing my corporate job that bring in $$ to support the farm and the horses here -- at least for awhile.

I love doing stalls (and believe me, I'm aces at it when help doesn't show up). I've done it all for many, many, many years..as most BO's will attest, they have too. But, like others here my older body can't do it much now. All my physical labor with horsecare, raising and training babies, rehabbing training for others' problem horses -- and horsefarming itself -- has now taken its toll.

Why do employees think that BO's have not ever done crap work? We've done it and a lot longer than those who apply for jobs. We've done it all...and shoot, I'm active on the BB tonight because I'm up all night giving injections every 2 hours to one of my seriously ill horses. I"m cranky. I'd rather be in bed. I haven't even had dinner yet and it's 11 pm. I can't go to sleep until 6:30 a.m. -- and I have to go to work tomorrow.

THIS IS WHAT HORSE PEOPLE DO. BO's who care for horses do this often for other peoples' horses who live at their farm, because we love all horses. Do we get paid for it? No. Caring for horses is gratifying unto itself. We dont' nickel and dime it...but our employees are today. That means to me that they shouldn't be in the business. That means, money first...horse care later.

Considering the new ecomomics -- most BO's like me must continue a living outside the farm to make enough money to pay for the costs of horse tending. To delegate these tasks so I can earn the money to do this is the new challenge! I know I'm not alone. That's why I no longer board.

I still think that there may be a misperception here that we may have missed in this discussion....is that it to most, horses are a "hobby" or a "luxury".

This perception from employees who struggle to keep ONE horse (as a hobby or luxury) flows over to BO's who have mulitple horses as if it is a hobby too. It may look like the "grass is greener" on the other BO side.

Horses are intoxicating for all of us. it's easy to forget the nuts and bolts of keeping them --whether it is the cost of boarding them (the "market" which is rightfully clueless as to their cost), as a new "at home" owner (who finds how much horse care impedes on have a "normal social life" and keep you home, and can threaten a marriage), or as an employee who's working in this field to try to subsized their horse and doesn't have a clue about either scenario...just wanting to "live the dream".

Perhaps they see our well cared for farms and horses as an indulgent endeavor. Talking to clients, working with horses, while they do stalls...all the "heady" and dreamy stuff they think is the most important part of horse business.

The most important part of a horse business is taking good care of the horses. And that means being inconvenienced all the time and changing one's life from what they thought it might be, if one is in it for the long haul and for what it gives us that money alone cannot.

There may be some jealousy with staffing because of PERCEPTION...but clearly not reality. They don't understand that we started where they did (re: crap work). The difference is, we anti upped our own $$ to set our sails in caring and training other peoples' horses. At that point it becomes a business...and with that comes an obligation to clients and to these 24/7 care, living things that are entrusted to our care and expertise. And we need employees that understand this. That's what is lacking now for those of us running good horse farms.

It's odd that I'm JUST tiring in my 50's physically, and youngsters who want to have a "career" in horses are bailing in their 20's.

Cripes, I'm finding myself afraid of imposing" on my farm help lest the leave because they had to work late. I don't even ask, nor will I take an offer to work late. They keep score and it will come back to haunt me later. So I do it myself.

It's sad that we're living in an economic environment with horses where some help is better than no help.

While I"m up tonight and using the BB to keep me awake for my 24 hr. meds schedule for my horse, it's appropriate to say that this is what we BO's do for the horses in our care. Our "payment' is to find a healthy, happy horse when we wake up in the morning before any farm help even arrives.

I don't blame people for fleeing this line of work. It's hard, it's imposing and in this day and age it's what the work force is being told to avoid.

Eventually there will come a time when those who want a life with horses, but can't afford to keep them at home, will find themselves not being able to keep a horse at all as boarding prices rise to meet with horse care cost...unless they can make the bigs bucks elsewhere to afford it.

[equusrocks]

sid, jingling for your boy. :(

I can see your frustration, and don't quite comprehend why your barn help won't, well, help at such a crutial time. Every 2 hours is so tough when you're already stressed emotionally. Regarding the extra hours, I always thought "extra" constituted extra unplanned days, or firing one employee and not replacing them for months, thus causing the remaining worker(s) to have to pick up the slack and most likely stay late every day. Worse if there's only one worker. But something this serious??? Sure there are benefits to having 9-5 jobs, but it just doesn't happen in the horse world, and although I think a reasonable hour is desired for ho-hum days, I can't see demanding that every single working day.

This past year, a friend of mine was using a very nice RID. He was a doll, but had colic surgery as a 2yo I believe, and ended up colicking again twice at her place. It was very serious the second time around, and between our circle of 3 very good friends, we managed a schedule around our work hours so someone could be with the horse at all times during the day and night. I'm sorry nobody is there to help you. I don't think you should have asked, if you were here, people would have offered. :no: How sad that they call themselves a horseperson and yet cannot offer their time when it's needed most, most especially if they live within close driving distance or on the property.

Wishing you guys the best, sending cyber hugs and coffee.

[SweetLatte]

Be it a manure fork, saddle sponge, shovel or whatever I'm up for the job. A day of hard work only serves to make a person feel more accomplished, if only some would step up to the plate and try it.

[sid]

Yes... coffee. I'm fading. I'm only posting becuase it's keeping me awake for Bo. In fact, I might not be making much sense. You've been up with sick horses and I'm sure you know how punchy you can get. I live alone so I only have myself to keep me awake.

Kenya coffee..think I have some. That should do the trick.

Equus...thanks for your well wishes!

Susan

[Sabine]

My experience, exactly. Most of the guys that come up from Mexico and central America have grown up with livestock of some kind or another, often horses. Since they're raised in an agrarian environment, you don't have to teach them what's expected, since they already know. But since the government has made it so hard to hire illegals, and it's so hard and such a long process to get a green card for most of these folks, you're playing with fire if you hire one. I hate it, but there you go. :(


But you can't. That's the rub. As Jsalem said, if we as barn owners were to raise our boarding rates enough to TRULY reflect our costs, and build in a tiny profit for ourselves as well as paying our help, no one could afford to board, much less pay for lessons and training. And if we do the work ourselves, there is no time/energy left for lessons/training. :no:



I don't think there's an area in the country where cheaper labor is plentiful. If it were, we'd probably not be having this discussion. But I don't think that's the crux of the problem. It's the kids that seem to think that, because they want to make a living doing something "fun" or "glamorous", why then, it should be made available to them. But the truth of the matter is that the industry pays badly at all except the very top level, and that's not going to change anytime soon. And until the newcomers to the industry accept that fact, then the rants/vents about lazy laborers and parsimonious barn owners will continue. :sigh:

JMO. :cool:

Actually it might be worthwhile for you to check in to the INS and the way you can sponsor and H1B- that's the visa these folks would need- there is a way for sure- as we do it all the time with Information tech peeps from India- it's like $ 2500 and you hold the visa for 6 years. That's worth it.
I completely see your picture and frustration. Here in So Cal we have lots and lots of immigrants and maybe it's a bit tougher to check things or what- I don't know- but there are plenty of them always coming in and labor is not hard to find. That's why boarding rates are relatively still reasonable. Because once you add the training- you're talking 1K or more per month- that 's without shoes or vet....:(

[claire]

sid, Just wanted to say (before popping off to bed) I have really enjoyed reading your contributions to this interesting thread.

I want to thank you and my trainer and all the other barn owners for being the means by which this "city girl" got to experience the :D and :cool: and :eek: and :cry: of being involved with horses.

Sad to say, but in the future this experience may well be out of reach for all but the very wealthy.

Fingers crossed for your horse.

[sid]

Thanks Claire --

To keep my horses and contribute to others' I'll be working until I'm 95 to support the effort. God willing I live that long (grin).

It's quite a life -- especially when doing it alone with no family to help. But I wouldn't trade this life with horses for the world!

As Bob Dylan sang "the times, they are a changing". BO's and employees must adapt. BO's are. Employees are not...that's just the new culture.

I understand it. Don't like it because it doesn't help horses, but I DO understand it.

[Sabine]

Thanks Claire --

To keep my horses and contribute to others' I'll be working until I'm 95 to support the effort. God willing I live that long (grin).

It's quite a life -- especially when doing it alone with no family to help. But I wouldn't trade this life with horses for the world!

As Bob Dylan sang "the times, they are a changing". BO's and employees must adapt. BO's are. Employees are not...that's just the new culture.

I understand it. Don't like it because it doesn't help horses, but I DO understand it.

Not so sure about that- the big R word is being tossed around, the war in Irak is killing us and Mr. B is deaf, mute and blind....sooo- you might just be finding a different story soon- I hope that sincerely for you- as I love the farm life and the independent BOs.

(my mom is one in Germany and there because of the solid and hundreds of year old strong agriculture life- the next door farmer comes around and lends a helping hand (of course paid) but very competent, quick and hard working- my mom is 75, still riding strong and running her yard like a captain runs his ship- thru the fiery sea...come hell or high waters...LOL!

Take care Sid and jingles to your boy!

[sid]

Sabine...call me stupid or call me just plain pooped.

What is the "R" word????

[Sabine]

Sabine...call me stupid or call me just plain pooped.

What is the "R" word????

Sorry lady- you're not stupid and it's NOT Rollkur...LOL! it's called
RECESSION- a major breakdown of the economy - a time to grow veggies in your backyard- a time to cut back-....sorry to break the bad news to you!

[ESG]

Apparantly ESG needs to go back and try to survive off of what she thinks barn works should make and no health care! Gee. I have tons of expirience not only running barns but also working for some great trainers, for 10+ years. What do I do now? Oh thats right I'm a med tech because I need health insurance and I'd like to be able to afford to actually own a horse... plus my house!

Been here, done this, got the T shirt. Only I wanted badly enough to continue in the horse business that I went out and got a <gasp!> full time job, and worked horses part time. I worked two jobs for several years before working myself up to the point where I could go out on my own and make a living. And pay for health care. And pay for three horses. So again, don't presume to lecture me - I know what it takes to be in the business, and I've proven that I'm willing to do it. When you can say the same, I'll give your words more weight. :cool:

[ESG]

Actually it might be worthwhile for you to check in to the INS and the way you can sponsor and H1B- that's the visa these folks would need- there is a way for sure- as we do it all the time with Information tech peeps from India- it's like $ 2500 and you hold the visa for 6 years. That's worth it.

I'll check that out. Thanks very much for the info! :yes: I have a worker in mind that I would kill to have back, and this might be the answer. Thanks again. :)

[ESG]

own our own business and also our own farm. I pay the guys who wash my cars and keep the lot clean $12/hr plus time and a half for overtime and paid health insurance. And damned if they don't quit when it gets too hot or too cold or too wet or too whatever. Now, they don't have to be OUTSIDE to do this or at least most of it and we buy them proper boots and coveralls and gloves, buy their lunch a time or two a week and have to darn near retrain them every day. "yes, we put the flags out and make sure everything has gas everyday, not just yesterday". We pay our manager (and we are a small mom and pop business) over $50K per year plus benefits and while she had more to do when we started than she has now and was making less, she is now pushing us to hire some additional staff as she has "too much to do". We live in an area where people with $7/hr skills want $12/hr. Don't tell me if I pay them better and treat them better they will perform better, I have, they don't they're outta there. If I have to hold your hand and wipe your nose and kiss your *** then I'm going to do it myself and put the money in my pocket. What it comes down to is this, ESG I want that job (as long as I can bring the husband and the corgi) and Boysnightout, well my dear, you are quite obviously a child, and while you may have worked and studied, what remains is that until you have been the person signing the paychecks and paying the bills, you have not a leg to stand on. The "ideal" example in the business world, does not always work. There are some areas with a lack of skilled or unskilled labor and a such a high level of competition for those jobs that good help is hard to find. I have been trying for 3 years to find some people to do the crap jobs (I consider vast amounts of paperwork to be more noxious than stall cleaning) without success. We pay far above the industry standard and treat our employees like valuable team members. And to thank us, we get taken advantage of at every possible opportunity, because they know we need them. If the price of board were raised to truly reflect the cost increases in the industry, half of the people that said that BO's should just suck it up would be forced into working a second job to afford their board bills. Maybe they could clean some stalls or something.....

Bravo! :yes:

[M. O'Connor]

If the economics of running a barn with well-paid help do not work out, then something about the situation needs to change. I consult with small firms all the time that really do not have the $$ to pay for help, but it always means there is something terribly awry with the financial management. Sometimes it means the owner is trying to take too much out of the proceeds.Sometimes the overhead is too high. Sometimes people are working hard, but not smart. Some things may need to be outsourced. Some things may need to be eliminated. Some things may have to be added.

This is the smartest thing said on this thread so far. As far as:

in this day and age it's what the work force is being told to avoid.

The workforce is being told to avoid many types of work that don't pay well enough to earn a living. 90% of barn jobs are entry level type work that offer more in "experience" than in "wages." That's fine, we all need experience.

But you can't eat it, wear it, sleep in it, or drive it somewhere, and you certainly can't pay for health care with it. It isn't even worth that much extra the next time you go looking for another job. Therefore most help willing to take the job are either there for the experience just for awhile, are being paid better than entry level wages, or are there because wherever they came from, conditions are even worse for them, and in many situations, that's saying quite a lot.

Going back to this idea...If the economics of running a barn with well-paid help do not work out, then something about the situation needs to change.

What can be changed? How could it work? Can the question "Why would someone want to work in the position I am trying to fill?" be answered in a positive way?

[mst]

ok, for some people who either do not go to college or did not finish. What jobs would be available for them? Im looking in the paper now. waitress/waiter, sell Avon, bartend after tou get the license, sales person at staore, fast food, paint houses, etc. what do they earn?

[ESG]

Well good for you then, lol. I have worked with horses in several barns for 15 years, so don't presume to lecture me either about what good barn help is all about and what it's like to be a barn worker.

Yes - your vast experience, working in barns since age eight, is enough to enlighten you as to the economics of running one. :rolleyes:

And since you're still living at home, you are not "paying your own bills". Maybe supporting your horse habit, but that's a whole different story from paying rent, buying groceries, and making a car payment. When you actually have to make these payments, then we'll talk. Right now, you don't know what your'e talking about.

You look just as foolish to me as I apparently do to you.

Coming from you, that's a compliment. Thank you. :yes:

[Angela Freda]

ok, for some people who either do not go to college or did not finish. What jobs would be available for them? Im looking in the paper now. waitress/waiter, sell Avon, bartend after tou get the license, sales person at staore, fast food, paint houses, etc. what do they earn?

Around here retail gets you about $8+/hour, a discount, and a warm, dry working environment where you're less likely to get kicked, trampled, or suffer complete physical exhaustion at the end of the day.... and that's for part time help.

[King's Ransom]

I don't think the people who are complaining WANT to find any answers. They want to bash the economy and the poor workers. There ARE solutions, but any that would be offered here will just be argued with. And the posters will be slammed for not knowing enough about how awful it really is.

Lots of barn managers ARE making it. There ARE solutions. But one of them may be that some of the "fringe" barns DO go out of business. One problem is that as land has become so expensive, fewer and fewer people can afford to have horses at home. They HAVE to board. But, the truth is, they can't really afford to board their horses, either ... not if they have to pay a reasonable rate that compensates the barn manager. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. But I do know this, I have seen LOTS of people leave struggling barns, and it had NOTHING to do with $$$. In fact, they went and paid 25 to 50 percent MORE at the new barn. Why did they leave? Conflicts with trainers and/or barn managers, conflicts with poor employees, little or no turnout, poor stall management, etc., etc. I have only known of a couple of people who left a struggling barn because they found someplace CHEAPER. And the truth is, those people really could not afford to own a horse. Horses are cheap to buy, expensive to maintain. Too many people don't figure that out until it's too late.

I see barns with tack shops and gift shops to bring in extra revenue. I see barns that rent their facilities out for private gatherings. I see barns that installed nice locker / shower facilities to make it easier for (particularly women) riders to stop by on their way home from work, change clothes and work-out with their horses. And I see people pay top dollar for those services.

I also know that I have had a lot of employees through the years in my business in jobs that I KNEW were not career-material jobs. I was ALWAYS able to hire the best and brightest young people from the local high school. I knew they were temporary. I knew the job I was offering was only a stepping stone. I knew I would have to work around their schedules. And I got the BEST kids because I WAS willing to work with all of those parameters. I talked to their parents. I told them that school was most important. I hired a couple of kids with different available times to more or less "job share." The kids I had working for me LOVED to work for me, they did a GREAT job and I truly enjoyed having them come to work. I gave most of them scholarships when they graduated from high school, and I always had a waiting list of kids who wanted the recent-grad's job when they left. The jobs I had for these kids were low-level jobs. But I got the BEST kids to do them. I had a lovely 16-year-old who came after school every day and soon proved to me that she could handle lawyers on the telephone. Wow! I fell in love with that one. She was killed in a car wreck last year, at age 25. And I wept as if she had been my own. She also loved horses and had great horse-management knowledge & skills. She would have been a gem as a barn worker, and I think I paid her $7.50 an hour.

I do not and will not believe that there is no good help out there. Some people just want to blame their poor management skills on anyone and everyone else they can.

If you can't find a good employee, the reason why is not in the economy or "out there" anywhere -- it's in the mirror.

[Trixie]

ok, for some people who either do not go to college or did not finish. What jobs would be available for them? Im looking in the paper now. waitress/waiter, sell Avon, bartend after tou get the license, sales person at staore, fast food, paint houses, etc. what do they earn?

Around here retail gets you about $8+/hour, a discount, and a warm, dry working environment where you're less likely to get kicked, trampled, or suffer complete physical exhaustion at the end of the day.... and that's for part time help.


Exactly. Our receptionist did not attend college and makes quite a bit. She also has the added benefit of being bilingual. It's not rocket science to answer a phone politely, to plug numbers into a cash register.

Many jobs don't REQUIRE a college education. Does it help? Of course. But can you exist without one? Sure.
I'm a part time graphic artist and photographer in my downtime (I do similar work for a defense contractor 9-5). I make ads, I can photoshop just about anything, and I photograph events for over $100/hour.
Does this require a college degree? No, but it does require a skill. I've contracted assistants (for individual jobs) that I'm not actually certain graduated from high school. Were they able to push the button on a light meter when I asked them to? Sure.

If you're talking about people who are truly and completely uneducated - there's still plenty of available things. There is no shame in being a waitress whatsoever and you don't risk your life doing it - and you usually stay warm and dry. Heck, Micky D's and Starbucks pay benefits. Someone said Mickey D's started at $9.50 an hour in their area. I don't know what it would be around here. I made $7 an hour waitressing when I was in college + tips. I made quite a bit in tips.

There was a recent outcry when Starbucks coffee went up by a NICKEL. But do people still buy coffee from Starbucks? Of course. Because they want coffee.

[Trixie]

Sorry - double post. Stupid computer :|

[BoysNightOut]

Yes - your vast experience, working in barns since age eight, is enough to enlighten you as to the economics of running one.

And since you're still living at home, you are not "paying your own bills". Maybe supporting your horse habit, but that's a whole different story from paying rent, buying groceries, and making a car payment. When you actually have to make these payments, then we'll talk. Right now, you don't know what your'e talking about.

Haha, oh ESG, how do you know what bills I pay? As a matter of fact, I do pay my own way, not just my horse....so miss know-it-all, don't tell me about my financial status, as you do not know me...who looks foolish now.....as for rent, when I move out in a few weeks, I won't pay anything, since it's a benefit my equine employer is offering me....yeah, gasp, a benefit. ;-)


As for the economics of running a barn, as I said I believe many times now, much of it is common business sense. You don't need to own a barn to understand how to run one. Apparently, you don't get this so we'll just drop it....not going to argue with a brick wall, lol.

Coming from you, that's a compliment. Thank you.

Haha, your welcome. I love having dicussions with adults who like to use snippy sarcasm because they can't talk about things politely. And you think I'm the child here? I think my posts started out as firm, yet polite. It was you who instigated the hostility with the "oh, read for comprehension, your statements are silly, you don't know what you're talking about....", so really, whose the kid now? I think I am starting to see why some of your employees quit, such as that "delicate flower".....if I had a boss like you, I'd run for the hills too! :-)

Your inflated ego of "Oh, I have been a pro for 19 years, I had 2 jobs, I earned my way".....yada yada yada. Good for you. The gold star is in the mail, lol. Why don't you go to a retirement village and complain about todays youth with the residents there....you might find more sympathy, lol.

Anyways, time for me to go do others things, like ride my horse, and get some sleep for work in the early a.m. I've said what I've had to say, you don't agree with me, so oh well. Continue if you must to bicker on a public BB about how stupid I am, but quite frankly, I've got better things to do, like live life. :-)

[EventingJ]

Been here, done this, got the T shirt. Only I wanted badly enough to continue in the horse business that I went out and got a <gasp!> full time job, and worked horses part time. I worked two jobs for several years before working myself up to the point where I could go out on my own and make a living. And pay for health care. And pay for three horses. So again, don't presume to lecture me - I know what it takes to be in the business, and I've proven that I'm willing to do it. When you can say the same, I'll give your words more weight. :cool:


I'm glad you not only found the one (and only) way to run 'the business' but also think everyone should make your same mistakes. If i had not dealt with older, arrogant females my entire illustrious riding career I might be more surprised at your comments that just because I'm a) 23 and b) have not actually made it to where you are at 45. I've worked very hard for everything I have today. Mommy and Daddy have not helped me out, I've catch rode pretty much my entire life, oh I'm sorry Mom and Dad did pay for about 6 months of lessons when i was 10. Shoot. There goes everything I'll never make it now? I dont want to make myself a martyr, but hey this is the only way I could make it here. I didnt have money, all I had was the ability to work my way here. I work a (I KNOW YOU FIND THIS SO SURPRISING) A full time job, over nights including weekends and most holidays. If I had time for three horses, or if I had time for my one horse and a second job with the overtime i pull then I would do so. I help out as much as I can at the barn I currently work at.

Just because you got by doesnt mean it makes everyone else wrong to point out the obvious. I hope that when I do buy a small farm in a few years, and I'm working a full time outside job and fulltime at my barn, and I need to hire a worker, I will pay them what they deserve. You complain about how every worker sucks, because in the end no one will work as hard as you especially when they cant afford to feed and house themselves. I don't presume all people need to follow my struggle to gain my respect.

King's Ransom HAS the same T-shirt and pretty much saying the same thing ;) And they are pretty much pinning you exactly as you are. Gee guess I dont need a t-shirt to see the obvious!