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YoungFilly
Sep. 12, 2006, 10:12 PM
Thanks Theo for posting the awesome rides! I just watched them all, and I have
to say, as much as I love Anky, don't you all think that her ride wasn't actually the best?

I mean, her ride was good. But there were others that didn't have the tension and had a lot more
fluidity, more precision, expecially the guy from Denmark who got second place. HIS ride was excellent!

I also thought Kyra's was excellent. As well as Jan Brinks.

What part of this am I missing? I am not bashing her by any extent, I really like her, but fair is fair, and I think that some of the judges must have had blinders on when they were watching the other rides.

mazymind
Sep. 12, 2006, 11:25 PM
It wasn't to me. Not even close.

I also was not terribly impressed with Isabel's ride, but for entirely different reasons. Too many mistakes I thought for the score.

I really like Stephan's ride, except of course, for the big ding on swaying in the piaffe. That was really a bad fault, but otherwise the horse was wonderful, wonderful. Very precise, very correct, very beautifully ridden.

I haven't seen the others yet-

What's up with keeping the curb horizontal anyway? I would excuse this on the electric atmosphere in the jumping arena, but it seems to be a common thread in every video I see of top performers these days. Cepting Stephan.

DressageGuy
Sep. 12, 2006, 11:28 PM
Gee, what have the rest of us been saying for the last few years...

Adelita
Sep. 13, 2006, 12:58 AM
I love the second place finisher, Andreas from Denmark. I am in love with his mare!

Jeepers
Sep. 13, 2006, 01:03 AM
My one comment, salinero looks robot-like :confused: not so sure 'bout that...

merrygoround
Sep. 13, 2006, 07:48 AM
I love the second place finisher, Andreas from Denmark. I am in love with his mare!

She really caught my eye too. :)

Daydream Believer
Sep. 13, 2006, 08:12 AM
I could really see what Ideayoda calls the "downhill balance" when watching Salinero. Andreas IMO should have won. I am in awe!

fiona
Sep. 13, 2006, 09:39 AM
Video of WEG2006 -- Was Anky's ride really the best? yes.

Merche2
Sep. 13, 2006, 10:14 AM
Can someone pls send me the link of the video? I would love to see it.

gracias.

M

slc2
Sep. 13, 2006, 10:18 AM
when you all have as much training as the judges, i'll be waiting with bated breath to know.

mazymind
Sep. 13, 2006, 10:49 AM
when you all have as much training as the judges, i'll be waiting with bated breath to know.


cease waiting.

I do.

Downhill balance is a very tactful way to describe a horse which is on it's forehand, uneven behind, and not engaged. Not #1 in my book.

slc2
Sep. 13, 2006, 11:01 AM
yiou have the same training and experience as witthages and zang and the others? why aren't you judging?

i will look at the complete tapes in a couple weeks, but i doubt that the judges would have given salinero 1st place if he was flying around with his face in the dirt all the time. he may have had a couple bad moments but i think all tests do.

i still don't understand what the motivation of witthages, zang and the others would be to unfairly reward a badly performing horse 1st place over and over and over and over and over.

tewhann
Sep. 13, 2006, 01:32 PM
I read on another BB that Salinero literally ran away w/Anky in an award's ceremony--to the point that she couldn't stop him initially.

Can anyone verify/debunk this?

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 13, 2006, 04:18 PM
slc2, it's nice that you have so much faith in the judges...but I don't think even they'd say they have your complete faith in each other! Talking to some top judges, they've said they'll sit on panels and be thrilled with the quality of the panel...and at other times, they debate in their minds whether they should modify their scores to make up for the politics or the lack of education of their fellow judges on the panel.

I don't know what the answer is, although I'm beginning to think randomly eliminating a score from the panel might help. It certainly wouldn't work to throw out the high and/or the low score, as who is to say that particular judge isn't the only one who is 'right.'

Betcj
Sep. 13, 2006, 04:47 PM
Loved all the rides, but I really got goosebumps for Andreas. I was thinking 'what a good time that horse is having!"

Would the swishy tail count off? It looked more like keeping time to the music to me.

Which would I want to ride/own? Andreas! Just looked like a joyous ride.

just IMHO!

slc2
Sep. 13, 2006, 05:18 PM
you need to read back, and find just where i said i have 'complete faith' in the judges.

i said i'd listen to them before a bunch of people with no experience riding at that level, no judge's forums, no experience training at that level, no experience with that sort of riding.

why?

the judges have MORE training than these armchair quarterbacks.

infallible? perfect? always completely right?

no, but i don't EXPECT that, and when you stop expecting people to be perfect, and are happy with experienced, trained, educated, examined, tested, and all that, vs. not examined, not educated, not tested, you'll learn a lot more and be a lot less pissed off continually at the evil injustice so and so got robbed blah blah blah.

no one is ever always right or always perfect. but i have more faith in the people with the training and the experience, than i do in the people who don't have any of that, or have some small tiny amount of it.

i posted comments from linda zang here from a couple of years back. the responses to those comments convinced me beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, that if there is a disagreement between linda zang and the people posting here, i'm sticking with linda zang's view.

slc

Horsedances
Sep. 13, 2006, 05:39 PM
I have listened to all the commentators (6 different channels) but also to the judges and the riders comments after the freestyle to music.

There was no dispute about the placings of the top-5 riders.

The propeller-tail of Matiné was one of the reasons, the fact that he had many mistakes in the changes of the gaits, and the fact that he didn't lower his haunches in the piaffe, next to some minor mistakes like knickingbucking with his head during the passage, his extended walk and two pirouettes which were to big, were some of the general statements.

Also Andreas himself told the media that the FTM wasn't his best ride.

Please don't shoot the messenger, because I also would have liked to see Andreas win, but this time it shouldn't be honest.

Theo

egontoast
Sep. 13, 2006, 05:51 PM
Hey HD, old pal, any chance of seeing the GP rides? I saw the freestyles (hmm) and the specials( yum!) but would love to see the GP rides on dial up kind sir.

Yes, I am sucking up.

PS just heard rumour that Matine sold to UK for over 4 million euros. Any confirmation on that?

nero
Sep. 13, 2006, 06:19 PM
As far as who gave the best FREESTYLE TO MUSIC performance, YES Anky should have won.

For the few faults that Salinero has the others had more, as Theo said, as good and completely gorgeous as Matine is she has some issues with balance and strength, ie piaffe that is more like a passage on the spot at this point, bigger pirouettes etc, AND Anky's artistic marks were deservedly much higher.

All in all a good and fair result

Horsedances
Sep. 13, 2006, 06:32 PM
you need to read back, and find just where i said i have 'complete faith' in the judges.

i said i'd listen to them before a bunch of people with no experience riding at that level, no judge's forums, no experience training at that level, no experience with that sort of riding.

why?

the judges have MORE training than these armchair quarterbacks.

infallible? perfect? always completely right?

no, but i don't EXPECT that, and when you stop expecting people to be perfect, and are happy with experienced, trained, educated, examined, tested, and all that, vs. not examined, not educated, not tested, you'll learn a lot more and be a lot less pissed off continually at the evil injustice so and so got robbed blah blah blah.

no one is ever always right or always perfect. but i have more faith in the people with the training and the experience, than i do in the people who don't have any of that, or have some small tiny amount of it.

i posted comments from linda zang here from a couple of years back. the responses to those comments convinced me beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, that if there is a disagreement between linda zang and the people posting here, i'm sticking with linda zang's view.

slc

I agree with the most of your above statement, but you bring yourself in a strange position when you are saying you STAND with the judges, because this time LZ was out of sync with 4 other judges. Maybe LZ was right, but then four other judges were wrong. My guiding light is always Stephan Clark, because he is an honest judge and was and is a very good rider himself.

Theo

slc2
Sep. 13, 2006, 08:39 PM
i know theo, and i feel you are right, but despite their differences, i still think that the judges are more united than the people here, and even when the judges differ, i still don't agree with the 'they're all crap, the judges all suck, and i ride better in my backyard' attitude so often expressed here.

i study the differences in judging and learn from it. that's ok with me...i don't always think clarke is the right one, but i usually can understand the differences between him and the other judges. i try to look and see who's thinking what. among a whole bunch of trained, experienced judges, i prefer their judgement to a group of people without their training or experience.

sabryant
Sep. 13, 2006, 08:57 PM
yes.

I agree that Anky's ride was the best. It was mistake free. 2nd horse was awesome but with mistakes.

Horsedances
Sep. 13, 2006, 09:06 PM
I agree that Anky's ride was the best. It was mistake free. 2nd horse was awesome but with mistakes.

Almost, because Salinero had a glitch in his extended trot.

But the thing I am really worried about is that Matiné (also in the GPS)
had the same problems with his changes from one gait to another in the FTM.

Adelita
Sep. 14, 2006, 12:21 AM
Question for you all about the movement of Andreas' horse. That suspension, or extra air time in all gaits. Is that something the horse was born with, or was it trained into her? Or was it improved by training?

I understand that all horses move best when properly muscled and balanced and yada yada yada.....but what I wanna know is do you think any gadgets were used ever to get her to move like that????

For example, and for God's sake don't shoot me or flame me, I knew a Saddlebred trainer who could get horses to have that extra milisecond of air time by using bungees in training. Don't ask me how, but he did it. Does stuff like that happen to these big dollar horses?

Ok, I am scared now, LOL!! SLC don't yell at me! :D

egontoast
Sep. 14, 2006, 05:25 AM
No. The horse has natural suspension which you can see , not unlike Farbenfroh. The challenge for the trainer Rudolf Zeilenger was more likely getting the work more forward rather than more upward.

'Funny' thing about the internet is that a couple months from now likely someone on another board will add to another thread about this horse that they think they read somewhere that there were rumours this was the case. All because of this thread. And then the OP will read that and think, see I was right!

Carry on. What next?

sabryant
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:18 AM
Almost, because Salinero had a glitch in his extended trot.

But the thing I am really worried about is that Matiné (also in the GPS)
had the same problems with his changes from one gait to another in the FTM.

You know, I saw that bobble in the extended trot but I saw it with every horse in the extended at just about the same place. I wonder if it was a footing problem????

suzy
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:46 AM
Agree that Matine is a spectacular horse with a great future, but she did make mistakes and lack the precision and strength of Salinero. When she is more mature and has more GPs under her belt, she is going to be tough to beat. The tail actually didn't bother me because she had such a nice expression and always looked like she was really trying to do everything that was asked but had a few moments of confusion. However, she never "shut down" during those moments. I think she's a classic example of one of those mares that will keep giving even when there's nothing left to give. Love her!!!

Betcj
Sep. 14, 2006, 09:12 AM
Just being nosey, but does anyone know how old Matine is? Any vital statistics? I loved the video, but unfortunately didn't get the translation of the comments. If she's young, like you said, imagine when she's mature!! :yes:

egontoast
Sep. 14, 2006, 09:22 AM
She's nine

ise@ssl
Sep. 14, 2006, 09:49 AM
Well I was fortunate enough to attend the WEG'S and watched all of the GP rides. It was truly a thrill to be there and watch all of these horses go. And while the judging seemed at times to vary - I felt the Keur scores for Anky were a shock. An 86% means this horse was very close to perfect 9's for all movements (10's are rare - so 90% is the ceiling). The ride was just not there in my eyes. The horse and the rider were tight and stiff and it just wasn't that many points higher than the 2nd,3rd or 4th place horses. The Danish rider on the gray mare was a joy and each ride she went even better. Their lightness and power and the same time and connection to the music through the entire ride was just plain magic. In fact, rumors floated around that an offer to buy the mare for $millions was turned down.

I honestly felt the Keur judging left a bad taste in my mouth after a week of feeling I was in Oz. Be happy to elaborate to anyone who wants to PM on this.

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 10:25 AM
No. The horse has natural suspension which you can see , not unlike Farbenfroh. The challenge for the trainer Rudolf Zeilenger was more likely getting the work more forward rather than more upward.

'Funny' thing about the internet is that a couple months from now likely someone on another board will add to another thread about this horse that they think they read somewhere that there were rumours this was the case. All because of this thread. And then the OP will read that and think, see I was right!

Carry on. What next?

Let me remind you that Rudolph Zeilinger is a master (the best) in getting the maximum out of the passage and piaffe of a horse. He is even hired by some other famous trainers to do this PaPi part of the trainingscale.

Don't ask me how he does it, but he does it with almost every horse, also the ones from which we never suspected to get the job done.

Theo

mickeydoodle
Sep. 14, 2006, 11:29 AM
I just watched Theo's videos, and unlike the World Cup last year in Vegas, I do think Anky had the best ride. Not the most difficult, as her frestyle is too test like, but the most mistake free and the best piaffe, passage, pirouettes. I really liked the grey mare, but she had mistakes, and occasionally tipped downward in front, as she gets stronger and more settled in the GP she will be amazing. All the others in the list had good rides, but with weaknesses in different areas. No one had the elevation in the piaffe passage as Matine and Salinero. Lots had good passage, but piaffe suffered.

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 11:57 AM
I just watched Theo's videos, and unlike the World Cup last year in Vegas, I do think Anky had the best ride. Not the most difficult, as her frestyle is too test like, but the most mistake free and the best piaffe, passage, pirouettes. I really liked the grey mare, but she had mistakes, and occasionally tipped downward in front, as she gets stronger and more settled in the GP she will be amazing. All the others in the list had good rides, but with weaknesses in different areas. No one had the elevation in the piaffe passage as Matine and Salinero. Lots had good passage, but piaffe suffered.

I agree with the red-line of your statement, however I want to say something about the choreography of Anky. I also made the same statement already in the topic of Karen Robinson.

From the judges handbook :



an abundance of transitions will affect th smoothness of the presentation, which is to be avoided.

The one golden rule for the design of a Freestyle is : better to make it appear too easy, with a lower degree of difficulty byt technically perfect, than proving to have been too ambitious, at the expense of technical perfection


This doesn't only count for the choreography but also for the smoothness of the music.

If you can listen to the commentator(s) at the end of the ride of Bernadette Pujol you will hear them say. Lovely horse, wonderful rider, nice music, but a little messy, it's like being in a Mexican bar.

Theo

suzy
Sep. 14, 2006, 12:32 PM
An 86% means this horse was very close to perfect 9's for all movements (10's are rare - so 90% is the ceiling).

Just a reminder that 10 mean "Excellent" NOT "perfect," and 9 is very good.

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 12:42 PM
(10's are rare - so 90% is the ceiling). And 10's aren't that rare.

kelliope
Sep. 14, 2006, 12:53 PM
I really don't understand what people here seem to have against Anky. I watched the videos and I thought Anky's ride was beautiful, quite fluid, light and virtually free of mistakes. She is a beautiful and quiet rider. I did not notice tension in Salinero. He looked beautiful and light and I'll say it again - fluid. Just watching her video helped me with my own ride yesterday.

I watched the other horses and while I really liked the 2nd place horse - it was in that horse that I sensed some tension. She swished her tail sometimes to her movement without it appearing to be a resistance, but other times it did look like some resistance. There are, of course, many fabulous rides, but I have to say that I thought Anky's, overall, captured the whole basis behind the freestyle.

diamondgirl
Sep. 14, 2006, 01:06 PM
I'm amazed that some "experts" here on COTH believe that that they are better qualified to judge than some of the best riders and/or judges in the world.

Aunt Esther
Sep. 14, 2006, 01:25 PM
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, wonders how long members of this BB will be subjected to thread after thread jumping on Anky.

Aunt Esther suggests getting over yourselves.

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 01:31 PM
kelliope - you're a joy.

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 01:32 PM
High trees catch a lot of wind.:yes:

grayarabpony
Sep. 14, 2006, 01:36 PM
Some of these judges need to see a horse a liberty to know what some of these moves are actually supposed to look like -- for example, the passage, and the extended trot. Some of these top horses produce beautiful passage, and others just do not have enough impulsion. And extended trots where the front end is moving real big and the hind legs half as much should be severely penalized.

I have not seen one of Anky's performances since the Athens Olympics games. How much better are her performances now? I thought it was a joke that she won the gold in Athens -- her horse couldn't even perform piaffe and he looked very tense throughout the test.

ise@ssl
Sep. 14, 2006, 02:13 PM
Come on Fiona - "TENS - it's a multiple word" are rare. Who in Grand Prix has scored multiple 10's in a championship ride? Please let me know the where- since you feel this is happening. Read what I wrote.

You all can have Anky and her rides - being there and seeing it makes me worried that that is where we are heading with dressage training. Tense, tight horses with technical correctness but absolutely NO BEAUTY to the ride and no softness in the body at all. It's movements on demand with little or no beauty and magic to it.

And those commentators can say whatever they want about mistakes - but even the scoring DURING all the rides was at times weird. You have 5 judges and marks would range from 5's up to 8's and not because of where they were seated. I thought LInda Zang was at times looking somewhere else.

And the buzz really was that the gray mare was not his top horse but his 3rd horse - and she held her own in a stadium filled to overflowing with screaming people and thrilled everyone watching and her rider.

And Aunt Esther and Diamond Girl - if this is only about what the judges score and the riders think - then DON'T SELL TICKETS. Why charge people money to watch if you feel they should just sit, watch, clap and shut up??? It's a spectator sport - HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every single person watching has the right to have an opinion whether they hold a judges card or not - you two seem to be the thought police - deciding who is worthy to comment or have any input - this is a DISCUSSION BOARD isn't it?
If you don't like the thread - don't read it.

I don't waste time on Anky - I just feel badly for the tense horses. But took tremendous JOY in watching many of the rides - that may have fell somewhat short of the medals but showed a horse and rider that were obviously connected to each other and their magic was contagious and had world class rides.

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 02:26 PM
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/worldcup_052703/

i'll try and find more of Rusty's scores but he wasn't/isn't the only horse i've seen in international competition that got/gets them. so yeah, plural

http://www.dressageunltd.com/aachen02/videos/0630gpk.htm

http://www.dressageunltd.com/jerez2002weg/Videos/bestmoves.htm

there are plenty more examples.These people are awesome riders with amazing horses.

Daydream Believer
Sep. 14, 2006, 03:36 PM
You all can have Anky and her rides - being there and seeing it makes me worried that that is where we are heading with dressage training. Tense, tight horses with technical correctness but absolutely NO BEAUTY to the ride and no softness in the body at all. It's movements on demand with little or no beauty and magic to it.



I feel the same way. I watched the rides several times now and Salinero just looks so mechanical...so tense to me also...the uneven jerky passage steps, the lack of a halt, and a number of other signs too numerous to mention. He never looks truly relaxed or soft in the back to me.

It is so odd that we all see the same ride so differently.

suzy
Sep. 14, 2006, 03:45 PM
Some of these judges need to see a horse a liberty to know what some of these moves are actually supposed to look like -- for example, the passage, and the extended trot. Some of these top horses produce beautiful passage, and others just do not have enough impulsion. And extended trots where the front end is moving real big and the hind legs half as much should be severely penalized.

I’m sure that ALL of these judges have seen horses passaging and extending the trot at liberty and know exactly what it looks like. However, the passage, piaffe, extended trot and so on shown under saddle IS different than that displayed at liberty; and should be since the horse now has the burden of performing the movements under a rider’s weight.

With that said, what you need to recognize is that no horse can perform every movement to a 9 or 10, no matter how talented or well trained. Each horse will have several things it excels in and several weaker areas. The GP tests are rigorous, and they test collection, extension, flexibility, obedience, and so on. The horse has to be strong in all areas. This is why you don’t see a lot of baroque (Lipizzans, Andalusians, etc.) competing at GP. They are the masters of collection but fall short in the area of extension. However, they are at the top of the heap as demo horses because of their collected work and ability to do the airs.

The riders of the top, international, GP horses know their horses’ strengths and weaknesses and do their utmost to show off the strengths while finessing the weaknesses. I think a lot of people have this misconception that a GP horse should be able to do every single movement nearly perfectly, and that’s just not reasonable. Look at figure skaters, golfers, swimmers, etc. etc.—they all are stronger in some areas of their sport than others. Same is true for horses. There simply does not exist an Uber-athlete in any field that can score a 10 on every movement.

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 03:57 PM
The question was " was anky's ride really the best?" on the day in that particular test the answer is "yes".


Salinero just looks so mechanical...so tense to me also...the uneven jerky passage steps, the lack of a halt, and a number of other signs too numerous to mention. He never looks truly relaxed or soft in the back to me.


I'd agree with that but the other horses that were more regular in the passage, less marrionette style in the way of going etc etc had other problems on the day in that test and made more mistakes. They also scored lower on the music which i can't comment on because i don't understand how to judge it despite horsedances excellent explanations in text of one syllable!

Bear in mind also, you are not viewing from the same angle as the judges so they may see stuff you don't and vice versa. There is also always the possibility that they know what they are doing and got it right.

Anky and Salinero had some low marks through the competition and were not at the top of the leader board in the tests that scored totally on the technical requirements. But as i think she said herself she made mistakes and it's a boring sport if you know who's going to win in advance.

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 04:00 PM
There simply does not exist an Uber-athlete in any field ......

You've never been horse buying in Ireland have you?

kelliope
Sep. 14, 2006, 04:34 PM
OK - this is really bugging me. I watched the rides again and I just don't see what everyone is talking about with Anky. I am no expert - that is for certain. I watch and try to learn something from all the riders. But I have watched old tapes of Anky with trainers and a judge and they pointed some things out to me that I wouldn't have seen on my own. One is that her transitions from passage to piaffe and back again are so smooth and effortless looking. Her horse is very consistent and I really don't see the tension everyone refers to. Even at the completion of her test, he looks happy and beautiful as he makes his way around the arena. And I love the way she always gives so much of the credit to her horses. She seems to be a very composed, kind and humble person. And along with all these riders, talent galore. But again, I am not that experienced and this is just basically viewing a video on my computer.

But from what I understand and can see, her horse looks fluid, very consistent, performs without a mistake that I can really see and has incredible transitions that are smooth and effortless. Plus her music is timed perfectly to her horse. She seems to me to be an absolute master at the freestyle.

I love her beautiful rides and I really don't understand what appears to be just plain nit-picking about her. The other rides were quite beautiful too, but even with my lack of experience, I did notice some mistakes, whereas I really couldn't point one out in Anky's ride.

Just my humble opinion, but I think Anky is incredible. I think we can all be fairly certain that none of these horses are a piece of cake to ride and all these rides are something to aspire to.

One more thing - I think for the most part the judges do a great job. They have quite a job watching fabulous ride after fabulous ride. I am sure it is not always an easy task to judge such a caliber of horse and rider and I am thankful for the job they do. They have a bit of a thankless job (except, of course, seeing all the incredible rides) and I am sure take quite a bit of heat. Having had the opportunity to have a judge teach a clinic in my area right after a show where she was the judge, I had a tremedous opportunity to hear first-hand as to why she scored the way that she did and it was quite an eye opener. She was great and I hope to have the opportunity again.

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 04:50 PM
When Salinero can't stand still at the halt and salut, this is called "tension".

When another horse can't stand still at the halt and salut this is called
"the horse is eager to go to work"

kelliope
Sep. 14, 2006, 05:04 PM
When Salinero can't stand still at the halt and salut, this is called "tension".

When another horse can't stand still at the halt and salut this is called
"the horse is eager to go to work"

:lol: Thanks for clarifying! hehehehe... :winkgrin:

fiona
Sep. 14, 2006, 05:57 PM
and when 50,000 people are cheering and clapping like we did and the horse stands still .....

call the vet.

diamondgirl
Sep. 14, 2006, 06:26 PM
And Aunt Esther and Diamond Girl - if this is only about what the judges score and the riders think - then DON'T SELL TICKETS. Why charge people money to watch if you feel they should just sit, watch, clap and shut up??? It's a spectator sport - HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every single person watching has the right to have an opinion whether they hold a judges card or not - you two seem to be the thought police - deciding who is worthy to comment or have any input - this is a DISCUSSION BOARD isn't it?
If you don't like the thread - don't read it.

Hmmm. No need to shout Ise. Did you forget your meds today?

ise@ssl
Sep. 14, 2006, 06:54 PM
No meds - kiddo - just sick of snobs that think the masses who support this sport should shut up and clap. There are alot of people RIDING horses that don't have as much knowledge as many people WATCHING. And if you think people don't discuss the rides in detail and disagree - then where in God's name were you sitting or standing at the WEG's. We were in our seats and in the warm up area and all over the stadium at different locations - do you honestly think everyone there agreed with the judges?? Then I guess you are deaf and didn't hear the whistling or level or lack of applause for certain horses.

One thing for sure - Anky's horse just didn't look as happy and soft in the eye as some of the others that had mistakes. But maybe that isn't important to some people.

egontoast
Sep. 14, 2006, 06:58 PM
When Salinero can't stand still at the halt and salut, this is called "tension".

When another horse can't stand still at the halt and salut this is called
"the horse is eager to go to work"
__________________

good point! hahaha

Daydream Believer
Sep. 14, 2006, 07:04 PM
When Salinero can't stand still at the halt and salut, this is called "tension".

When another horse can't stand still at the halt and salut this is called
"the horse is eager to go to work"
Not only is it a sign of tension and anxiety but it is a disobedience and a mistake...I thought you said that other than her extended trot her ride was mistake free? :winkgrin:

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
This was a remark of one on the commentators, when Floriano took off before Steffen Peters could put his hat back on.

Wooooow I love these disobedient horses, because Steffen had one of his best rides ever.

Theo

Black Forest
Sep. 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
Personally I thought Anky winning was ok. I wasn't sure I agreed that the gap between her and the others was as big as the score indicated, and I personally wasn't totally over-enamoured with her Kür, but I think I may have seen it once or twice too often, and unlike - for example - Rusty's "Carmina Burana" Kür Anky's *IS* one I don't want to see too often as it doesn't "grab me" emotionally like some others do. person taste, nothing against the Kür, I'm sure for many it's wonderful.

I am also sure I have seen her do the same Kür better.

Having said that Matine is ONLY nine years old. She has never performed under floodlights, she has never done anything like she did those days before in her life, and she has years ahead of her to get it right. I am also in love with that horse, she is just totally awesome.

The one thing that struck me was how big the gulf between the top handful and the rest is. There was a very distinct elite group with paces that didn't just seem a little better, but MUCH better all round.

Aunt Esther
Sep. 14, 2006, 07:25 PM
And Aunt Esther and Diamond Girl - if this is only about what the judges score and the riders think - then DON'T SELL TICKETS. Why charge people money to watch if you feel they should just sit, watch, clap and shut up??? It's a spectator sport - HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every single person watching has the right to have an opinion whether they hold a judges card or not - you two seem to be the thought police - deciding who is worthy to comment or have any input - this is a DISCUSSION BOARD isn't it?
If you don't like the thread - don't read it.
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, was in Aachen for the entire duration. Aunt Esther wonders where ise@ssl comes up with "if you think they should just sit," because nowhere does Aunt Esther suggest that people should just sit, watch, clap and shut up.

Aunt Esther, who earned her Goldenes Reitabzeichen probably before ise@ssl was born, thinks that perhaps ise@ssl is having a bad day and recommends a Macallan. A double. :cool:

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:05 PM
Aunt Esther, who earned her Goldenes Reitabzeichen probably before ise@ssl was born, thinks that perhaps ise@ssl is having a bad day and recommends a Macallan. A double. :cool:

But it is generaly known that a double Macallen limits your view. So please ise@ssl don't follow this advice of Aunt Esther. ;)

Daydream Believer
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:14 PM
This was a remark of one on the commentators, when Floriano took off before Steffen Peters could put his hat back on.

Wooooow I love these disobedient horses, because Steffen had one of his best rides ever.

Theo

And it should have (and probably did) get counted against his ride as a mistake. I'm not biased to American riders...I could care less where anyone if from or what their reputation is...a mistake should be marked down.

grayarabpony
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:20 PM
Quote: "I’m sure that ALL of these judges have seen horses passaging and extending the trot at liberty and know exactly what it looks like. However, the passage, piaffe, extended trot and so on shown under saddle IS different than that displayed at liberty; and should be since the horse now has the burden of performing the movements under a rider’s weight."


That's just absurd. If a horse can manage to bascule over a jump with a rider on his back then he can perform passage, piaffe and extended trot and be round and carry himself too. That's the ideal that these horses (such as Anky's) are falling short of.

Personally I'd rather see the horse stay round and relaxed, even if he can't perform all of the movements wonderfully. Anky's horse isn't technically correct if he is tense anyway.

Horsedances
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:28 PM
Quote: "I’m sure that ALL of these judges have seen horses passaging and extending the trot at liberty and know exactly what it looks like. However, the passage, piaffe, extended trot and so on shown under saddle IS different than that displayed at liberty; and should be since the horse now has the burden of performing the movements under a rider’s weight."


That's just absurd. If a horse can manage to bascule over a jump with a rider on his back then he can perform passage, piaffe and extended trot and be round and carry himself too. That's the ideal that these horses (such as Anky's) are falling short of.

Personally I'd rather see the horse stay round and relaxed, even if he can't perform all of the movements wonderfully. Anky's horse isn't technically correct if he is tense anyway.

From which planet are you coming :D

nero
Sep. 14, 2006, 08:47 PM
Funny that different eyes can see differnet things. To my eye Salinero and Anky work beautifully together and I just LOVE her Kur, everytime I hear the canter half pass music with her singing I tear up. I just don't think a horse could sweep like that in half pass and give such wonderful transitions in and out of the pi and pa if he wasn't using his back!!! If, isse, you can find me a horse that can do these movements so well without using the back please let me know.

And for those who do not think that Anky's freestyle has a high degree of difficultly, try riding extended canter transitioning straight away into a double pirrouette and THEN tell me it isn't hard. Anyway, as with dancing, often the more simplistic routines with symmetry and structure are the more aesthetically pleasing, the KISS principle is often the best when designing dance routine and kur routines, I think this is why Anky's work so well, they are structure and unclutured. I personally can't stand kurs that have too many tricks and seem to lack clear structure. A kur, like a dance should have 'story', to me Anky is the Torvill and Dean of FTM. They all took a common notion of competition moves with music as a background and took it to the level of art, with the music becoming the star - I love it.

ise@ssl
Sep. 15, 2006, 08:32 AM
OK - you gals who know everything ......

This thread asked a QUESTION. It is not unrealisitic assume the OP wanted RESPONSES. Now - those of us who don't agree with the rankings - well according to some hoity toities on here ....we know nothing.

Or to take the low road - the pathetic "you need meds" comment occurs - always sad - shows a rather limited writing ability.

Nero - if you like Anky and her horse and how they ride together - that's fine - your choice your opinion. I don't - my choice my opinion.

I saw no footnote on the original question stating - if you disagreed with the placings ...don't respond. I thought the winning ride was mechanical and tight - I saw all of her rides in person and from different locations in the stadium ...and some of her warmups - I hope this is not where all future dressage competition is headed.

suzy
Sep. 15, 2006, 08:54 AM
That's just absurd. If a horse can manage to bascule over a jump with a rider on his back then he can perform passage, piaffe and extended trot and be round and carry himself too. That's the ideal that these horses (such as Anky's) are falling short of.

Personally I'd rather see the horse stay round and relaxed, even if he can't perform all of the movements wonderfully. Anky's horse isn't technically correct if he is tense anyway.
To address your first comment, watch a horse passageing in the paddock. What you will notice are several things--the horse is passageing because of some external stimuli; most likely he will be quite tense and have his tail up over his back; his head will be high; his back will be tight, not basculed. Yes, he looks pretty and majestic, but it would loosen your fillings to try to sit that passage. ;) What Anky and her peers are presenting is far different (and better IMO) than that.

As far as Salinero's tension, I only saw one moment in the canter when he looked a bit strong, but it was when she was transitioning from extended canter to pirouette, which is going to be tough under the best of circumstances. I haven't seen all of the rides, but I don't recall any other rider trying to pull that movement off.

Nero, thanks for your thoughts on what makes some freestyles so much better than others. You put into words what I've been thinking. Too many transitions and "tricks" clutter things and disrupt the flow. This is why I no longer enjoy watching figure skating. The Quadruple movements end in disaster far too often, which just ruins the overall effect for me.

fiona
Sep. 15, 2006, 10:53 AM
This thread asked a QUESTION. It is not unrealisitic assume the OP wanted RESPONSES. Now - those of us who don't agree with the rankings - well according to some hoity toities on here ....we know nothing.


I answered the question already and explained. Ankys ride WAS the best, look at the scores she mega marks for the music and it was a good ride. Not perfect but good she deserved her win.
I wouldn't have been surprised if the margin was smaller and i would have preferred it if it was but you can't take it away from the lady she is the queen of kur.


I saw all of her rides in person and from different locations in the stadium ...and some of her warmups

Wow, i over indulged on Tattinger but didn't manage that - what were you on and where did you get it?

mickeydoodle
Sep. 15, 2006, 11:20 AM
I also did not see the tension in Salinero this time. In Vegas, yes I thought the piaffe was a bit herky/jerky but at the WEG he appeared to really have settled into it and it was fluid, rhythmical and symmetric, in my opinion.

Moreover, if people want to discuss the first halt, how about how some of the horses leave the halt? In the GP and GPS there were a few who walked 4-5 steps out of the halt, instead of the trot, that is perhaps as much a fault as not wanting to stand still.

The part of Anky's test I did not like was the really test looking flying changes on the diagonal. Yes, fine, keep it simple and do not do tricks, but those two diagonals are just so much like every test line of changes, that I would like to see her do something else with them. Just my opinion. Fancy can get you in trouble as Leslie found in one test where she got no changes or mistakes on her curved lines.

kelliope
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:02 PM
I couldn't agree more, mickeydoodle. I have seen Salinero tense before, but didn't see it this time. Thought it was a great ride and a great job on Salinero and Anky's part. And I agree the freestyle is more pleasing and magical when it doesn't have too many "test-like" elements to it.

ise@ssl
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:09 PM
Look Fiona - what's this obsession with inferring people are "on" something? I've never done drugs and certainly didn't drink at the WEG's - why infer that I did - you are WRONG and it's a personal comment which I feel is offensive.

We were free to leave our seats and be at different locations in the stadium along the rail and also at the warm up areas. So my friend and I spent a lot of time trying to see the horses from various angles and up close in the warm ups. We were there all week and from 8 am to the end of the day - daily.

And it's a personal preference but I didn't like Anky's music - or several others - that weird singing in the background was distracting. And those horses that did walk off at the halts were scored down for it. But the discussion here was focused on one rider that's probably why people didn't comment on every single halt.

Horsedances
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:23 PM
ise@ssl, maybee you should stick to the fact that you don't like Anky and/or Salinero.

Don't go into details, because every word you say weakens your original statement.

Maybe because you were running around during the tests you missed a lot of what was really going on.

diamondgirl
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:25 PM
Look Fiona - what's this obsession with inferring people are "on" something? I've never done drugs ....

Perhaps you should be. Sheesh! No need to attack all the time. Calm down.

RedMare01
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:35 PM
I took that to mean, "What were you STANDING on?"

Caitlin

suzy
Sep. 15, 2006, 12:57 PM
I think Horsedances has hit on it. ISE, you simply don't like Anky's riding (or maybe her horse), and that is perfectly all right. You are entitled to your opinion. However, not all of us share your opinion, and you seem to have a big problem with that. I can agree that the halt wasn't great, the music was only okay (in my very subjective opinion), and the changes could have been more interesting but, as Fiona said, Anky still had the best ride at that particular competition. Maybe the score was higher than it should have been, but she still deserved to win. And, as far as the music, even though it's not my taste, it really did seem to suit Salinero and the choreography. It's just not music that I would sit down and listen to for entertainment.

Regarding all the comments I've read from a variety of people regarding tension, there simply has to be some level of "tension" for the horses to perform such difficult movements with energy and grace. A really, relaxed laid back horse is not going to deliver the same quality extensions, piaffe and passage, and bounding flying changes as a horse that is really "on." If the horse is so tense that he can't focus on his work, that's one thing. But, in Anky's case (and others) that isn't the case.

fiona
Sep. 15, 2006, 02:09 PM
Look Fiona - what's this obsession with inferring people are "on" something? I've never done drugs and certainly didn't drink at the WEG's - why infer that I did - you are WRONG and it's a personal comment which I feel is offensive.



I'm not sure how to respond to this and the pm you just sent which i'll post for all to see shortly. I didn't imply that YOU drank at WEG or that you take drugs - i had a vision of you swooping from one side of the arena to other hanging off the robotic camera that was suspended from one side of the stadium to other watching every test from all angles. It struck me as funny. I apologise for you not getting the joke and for offending you accidently.



Please stop inferring I was "on" something or I will file a complaint to the COTH. I will also demand your identity to send you a letter demanding you stop doing this.

YOu keep inferring I take drugs or was drunk - I find this defamatory - not funny. And - it's a FALSE. If you want to defame someone on a public bulletin board with no basis in truth - pick someone else - I won't tolerate it.



I think that is a disporportionate response. For whatever offence i have caused you i apologise.

egontoast
Sep. 15, 2006, 02:29 PM
Disproportionate is a nice way of saying frothing at the mouth.I guess you aren't allowed to disagree with ise. YIKES. Thought police indeed.

suzy
Sep. 15, 2006, 02:50 PM
i had a vision of you swooping from one side of the arena to other hanging off the robotic camera that was suspended from one side of the stadium to other watching every test from all angles.

I had a much grander vision--one of a caped woman in a red and blue spandex suit flying back and forth over the crowd of hoi polloi with a natty pair of opera glasses. ;)

ise@ssl
Sep. 15, 2006, 04:30 PM
Well there were breaks after about every 5 or 6 rides so moving around was very easy. Because of a back injury sitting in the seats is not comfortable. And anyone who was there knows there were some rides just not worth watching so seeing specific riders - really the older man from Japan torturing that Schoolmaster he was on wasn't worth watching. And I focus on the horses because I breed horses and want to see certain horses up close. I don't wear a cape - nor spandex - but that's another slur from people who feel that anyone NOT sharing their opinion is just out of it. I think some of you should look in the mirror when it comes to nasty.

I've admitted I don't like Anky specifically because I feel Rolkur training results in tight stiff horses that look mechanical. MY right to have MY opinion - you gals who like this - get yourself a horse - go to her clinics and we'll watch for you at GP. I'd rather not send my horses there - in fact we won't sell to people who train using Rolkur.

And I do take offense to anyone telling someone they should take meds or drink something - what's that all about? It's sophomoric at best and certainly not legitimate debate. And Fiona - you might consider what you INFER when you write these things.

And AGAIN - title to this thread was "Was Anky's ride the best ride". I didn't think so I was the one attacked for saying that. If no one was supposed to post that disagreed with the scoring - WHY ASK THE QUESTION?

And fiona if you were sincere that you weren't trying to be mean - you would have responded to the PM and not on here. Enough with you gals of the Anky world.

Ah! Horsedances you are from the Netherlands.........! Isn't it against the law there to even speak negatively about Anky?

hototrot
Sep. 15, 2006, 04:42 PM
For what it's worth I was tremendously impressed with Anke's ride. He was so much more relaxed than we've seen in the past that it was as though he had come into his own and to do so much in such an atmophere- what was it 60,000 spectators? And so many fewer errors than the lovely mare in second place... an absolutely virtuoso performance. That said, Isobel's in the GPS was probably one of the very best moments in dressage that I've ever witnessed and will be my happiest memory from the competition.

And I'm sorry-- truly neither to fan the flames nor to cause offense and I know it's off track but still a bete noire of mine: imply, not infer...

suzy
Sep. 15, 2006, 04:53 PM
ISE wrote: I don't wear a cape - nor spandex - but that's another slur

No, it's not a slur and certainly was not intended that way--just a bit of levity because things were getting a bit heated.


On the other hand..."Enough with you gals of the Anky world", this IS a slur. ;) You are painting us all with one broad stroke.

Horsedances
Sep. 15, 2006, 05:15 PM
Ah! Horsedances you are from the Netherlands.........! Isn't it against the law there to even speak negatively about Anky?

No it isn't..... but it is forbidden in the Netherlands to breed horses when you don't understand anything about it.

And btw...... I live in Belgium.

fiona
Sep. 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
really the older man from Japan torturing that Schoolmaster he was on wasn't worth watching.
now that is defamatory.


And fiona if you were sincere that you weren't trying to be mean - you would have responded to the PM and not on here.

I am sincere i wasn't trying to mean, far from it. It's a public bulletin board i don't write anything here i wouldn't say in public and i am vehemently against privatemessages on principle. I've disabled that function now and made use of the ignore list - for the first time.

mbm
Sep. 15, 2006, 06:28 PM
I didnt think AVGs ride was the best. i felt it was mechanical , tight, and boring

I also didnt like matines very much either.... something about that mare bugs me. she is flamboyant for sure.... but maybe it is that she is young, but she just looks really down in the back and short in the neck- and her tail is a problem. I am looking forward to seeign how she goes when she is more mature.

i *did* like the horse from mexico - that ride made me happy. mayeb not the best "error" wise, but the "feeling" was there.

as an aside - since when did dressage become about errors??? that word just, to me, doesnt belong in dressage. we should be talking about engagement and balance and submission and collection etc.

how did all this get boiled down to errors??

(and for whomever made comments about transition between P&P - from what i have been told, the ease (or not) of this transition has a lot to do with the correctness of the piaffe. if the horse is doing a correct piaffe (ie sitting, weight bearing, not butt bouncing etc) the transition is very difficult and rarely is smooth and perfect.

(caveat - these are MY opinions and no i am not an FEI judge ;))

nero
Sep. 15, 2006, 07:01 PM
isse, NO ONE is saying you cannot have an opinion or that you cannot say you didn't think Anky's ride was the best, in fact others here have said exactly what you have said and it has been accepted, mainly because they said it calmly and with some fairly well thought out reasons why. I think people here have taken umbrage with not what you said BUT with the way you said it, its sound OTT and just a leetle bitter.

When you write this......

"Nero - if you like Anky and her horse and how they ride together - that's fine - your choice your opinion. I don't - my choice my opinion."

......I wonder why you would, its a given and I couldn't agree more. I don't mind that you don't like them - and have no interest in trying to change your opinion - but maybe you need to relax a bit on the way you come across here if you do not want people taking offence. And if you are going to say 'well I didn't like the test because it looked tense', except and perhaps listen when others say they thought it wasn't tense and explained WHY they thought it wasn't tense, otherwise you are just shouting, not discussing!! And the insults to those here who 'dared' to disagree with you? Not nice or classy. Calm down, it'll be ok!! lol :-)

Suzy thanks for your nice comment, I think 'less is more' is really important in creating something like a freestyle, that's why I like Anky's so much, glad you understand where I'm coming from. Cheers.

pinecone
Sep. 15, 2006, 07:09 PM
Although I have seen Anky perform that freestyle better than she did at the WEG, it was still lovely, and imo deserving to win. It astonishes me to see that there are people so hateful towards Anky that they can't even see the beauty of her rides. That's your loss, but it's our loss when we've got to be subjected to your venom repeatedly.

It also astonishes me that five of the best, most educated, highest ranked judges in the world, can put Anky unanimously in first place, and then have a handful of internet Anky hating "experts" say they are wrong. And when I said unanimously, I guess I should elaborate that one judge (Schule, at C) did have Anky tied with Andreas technically, and tied with Isabell artistically. Aside from that, Anky's victory was unanimous and decisive. But what do the judges know, right?

You know what mbm, I will have to say that I also liked the Mexican rider (who is really Spanish) Bernadette Pujals. Her freestyle was a bit of a disaster, and much too busy and full of errors (choreographically and musically as much as anything) but I otherwise see much potential there. And she looked so happy. I hope we see them again (she and her horse.) But hopefully it will be with a different freestyle...

Several of the rides were not as nice as I've seen the riders/horses perform before. They were still phenomenal, but I've seen better from some of them. First to come to mind are Anky, Jan Brink, and Nadine Capellmann, I have seen those three do better in previous rides.

Matine is lovely, but not as balanced or strong as some of the others imo. The tail is unquestionably distracting, but then if you notice, sometimes even whilst the tail is helicoptering, the ears are nearly flopping. Makes you wonder if the tail is tension, or just an odd habit, since you don't think of a wringing tail and flopping ears as going together.

Another thing about these threads which astounds me, are the types who will makes comments so vehemently against Anky etc., and then in the next breath admit they've not even seen the ride being discussed, they've maybe not seen any rides of hers at all, or perhaps the only ride they've ever seen was her first ride at Athens. And yet, these people feel qualified to rip her to shreads.

Fiona and suzy, I "get" where you are coming from, perhaps I have more of a sense of humor than some people. I also don't have a problem with wearing spandex and a cape to go out drinking, assuming I've properly overmedicated myself first. So what do I know. Probably less than these supposedly idiot judges. lol.

nero
Sep. 15, 2006, 07:21 PM
Pinecone that is scary, it's like I'm thinking it and then YOU type it!! couldn't see one word i disagreed with. :-)

egontoast
Sep. 15, 2006, 07:27 PM
I also don't have a problem with wearing spandex and a cape to go out drinking, assuming I've properly overmedicated myself first. So what do I know.

Partay!! Capes and spandex are mandatory here!

I don't understand why some people scream that they are not allowed to express an opinion when clearly they ARE allowed to express an opinion. I guess what really annoys them is other people's opinions. Seems to be a bit of a double standard. Go figure.

if someone is expressing their opinion in a particularly rabid or vicious manner, a suggestion to 'take a pill' is a euphemism for CALM DOWN. If you are blowing your top over a discussion, you may need some help. It's not about the content at all. 'Take a pill' means calm down.

It's an opinion. In my opinion, you need to calm down but see, it's just an opinion, you can do what you want. Obviously. Hand me my cape please, I need some fresh air!

fiona
Sep. 16, 2006, 03:12 AM
Yeah, what they said.

silvia
Sep. 16, 2006, 08:34 AM
What bothers me, and I am NO expert, is that I watch these videos, and I wonder exactly what the horses are being marked on. If a test is technically perfect, yet I can see the horse is tense, not loose or swinging, the gaits are no longer pure, the neck is crammed in and the gullet sandwiched, eyes bloodshot from the corresponding lack of oxygen, mouth drooling excessively, curbs maxed out, the front end huge and the back end dragging, the neck broken behind the vertical and no longer at its highest point at the poll.. I mean seriously. These are Grand Prix horses and they appear to have less mouth than my greenie?

I am not a jealous person and I don't compete. My word probably means next to nothing. But I am not blind either. I am not for the rider or judge, I am for the horse.. and I don't like what I am seeing is being awarded as 'ideal' Judges are encouraging more and more of this bad riding - yes, bad! - bad for the horse! - and everyone follows suit who wants to win. I feel sorry for the horses.

slc2
Sep. 16, 2006, 09:04 AM
it's a kind of blindness when people will themselves to see something that is not there.

all the top rides were very good, the differences i saw were quite small. i thought it was judged rather well.

'relaxed' means with less impulsion and power, and 'tense' means giving the rider the ride of his life...it's a strange world over here.

ise is just a very angry person and always has been ever since she came here, and she gets angriest at the people who disagree with her. she isn't going to change because we here don't like it. if you don't respond to her bait, it works out better.

ise@ssl
Sep. 16, 2006, 09:23 AM
Hello ...pinecone ....the question wasn't ......"were the judges wrong"? The question was ..."Was Anky's ride really the best"? That's an inquiry to people on this board. So then - if we have 5 top Dressage judges - why have ANY debate on the results pinecone? Are we to just leave a performance or competition and say to ourselves - we are not worthy - the 5 gods have spoken and ALL SCORES were exactly correct?

And Fiona - did you see the rides by the older man from Japan. Didn't you honestly feel horrible watching that poor horse doing a yeoman job with that man HANGING on his mouth the entire time?? Come on - it's hardly defamatory - it's what happened.

Vincent is a lovely horse and if you know the story of his rider and what she went through to get him back it's admirable that she was able to qualify for the WEG'S with a training situation that was very fragmented. I loved this horse and given the fact the owner/rider was an individual rider with no HUGE TEAM or thousands of countrymen in the stands - she did a fabulous job.

slc - I don't feel any anger - though I would point out you are being personal again to a stranger. I just don't understand the concept of asking a question and then flaming anyone who didn't agree with the judges scores? Just curious if you gals ALWAYS agree with the scores at ALL shows? Never saw any you didn't agree with - never received any you didn't agree with - just accepted that's what it was and NEVER discussed it at all?

Horsedances
Sep. 16, 2006, 09:38 AM
Vincent is a lovely horse and if you know the story of his rider and what she went through to get him back it's admirable that she was able to qualify for the WEG'S with a training situation that was very fragmented. I loved this horse and given the fact the owner/rider was an individual rider with no HUGE TEAM or thousands of countrymen in the stands - she did a fabulous job.

Yes it is a very good horse, but it was the choice of the rider herself to start for Mexico and not for Spain. And she had (as a newcomer) more support than any other, just like Andreas and the riders from all these exotic countries. The crowd in Aachen is always very sportive for every rider (specially newcomers). Bernadette was placed very well by the judges, and she didn't deserve a lower placing nor a higher placing.

Furthermore a question like "was Anky's ride really the best" , is the same as "Were the judges wrong", because when you answer NO on the first question this implies that the judges were wrong

mickeydoodle
Sep. 16, 2006, 09:46 AM
Hello ...pinecone ....the question wasn't ......"were the judges wrong"? The question was ..."Was Anky's ride really the best"? That's an inquiry to people on this board. So then - if we have 5 top Dressage judges - why have ANY debate on the results pinecone? Are we to just leave a performance or competition and say to ourselves - we are not worthy - the 5 gods have spoken and ALL SCORES were exactly correct?

And Fiona - did you see the rides by the older man from Japan. Didn't you honestly feel horrible watching that poor horse doing a yeoman job with that man HANGING on his mouth the entire time?? Come on - it's defamatory - it's what happened.

Vincent is a lovely horse and if you know the story of his rider and what she went through to get him back it's admirable that she was able to
qualify for the WEG'S with a training situation that was very fragmented. I loved this horse and given the fact the owner/rider was an individual rider with no HUGE TEAM or thousands of countrymen in the stands - she did a fabulous job.


Just a question, if someone offered you a great schoolmaster, lots of training, money and helped you get to an international competition you wouldn't go because you weren't the perfect rider?????

slc2
Sep. 16, 2006, 10:02 AM
he was korean, not japanese.

and ise, are you suggesting that the person who sold the horse to that guy didn't realize how he rode? gee, what an interesting idea.

in fact, i think she probably could tell the guy was not as experienced as her self.

when you are paying the bills, then you can tell people who to sell their horse to. if you dont like who someone sells a horse to, go complain to the seller. i'm sure the seller wants to know how you feel about it - call her up right now.

Hony
Sep. 16, 2006, 11:26 AM
I always find Anky's rides very text book. I think one reason people might not find them as exciting as other rides is because they are so fluid and flawless. Her horse is extremely rhythmical.
I only watched the top three riders and found that the second place horse had some abrupt transitions. The overal picture was just not as smooth as Anky's ride. I would imagine that at this level these things really matter.
The third placed horse is a beautiful horse with stunning movement but his test again wasn't as regular as Anky's. I think her horse is like a metronome (sp) and I think that probably gets her a lot of points.
I don't understand the hate people have for Anky either.

Horsedances
Sep. 16, 2006, 12:14 PM
he was korean, not japanese.

and ise, are you suggesting that the person who sold the horse to that guy didn't realize how he rode? gee, what an interesting idea.

in fact, i think she probably could tell the guy was not as experienced as her self.

when you are paying the bills, then you can tell people who to sell their horse to. if you dont like who someone sells a horse to, go complain to the seller. i'm sure the seller wants to know how you feel about it - call her up right now.

Didn't Anky sell Salinero some years ago :yes: . But the horse was returned because the new rider couldn't handle Salinero.

99% of HONEST horsetrading should consists of finding a match between the horse and the rider.

grayarabpony
Sep. 16, 2006, 10:15 PM
Suzy, I don't know what to say other than I'm not talking about an upside down passage in the pasture. I'm talking about a horse that floats because he has impulsion and self-carriage.

I certainly don't hate Anky. I do think she was scored too high in Athens, which was just 2 years ago.

Olympics2008
Sep. 16, 2006, 10:35 PM
I always find Anky's rides very text book. I think one reason people might not find them as exciting as other rides is because they are so fluid and flawless. Her horse is extremely rhythmical.
I only watched the top three riders and found that the second place horse had some abrupt transitions. The overal picture was just not as smooth as Anky's ride. I would imagine that at this level these things really matter.
The third placed horse is a beautiful horse with stunning movement but his test again wasn't as regular as Anky's. I think her horse is like a metronome (sp) and I think that probably gets her a lot of points.
I don't understand the hate people have for Anky either.

Anky was at Spruce last week and it was FABULOUS

canyonoak
Sep. 16, 2006, 10:58 PM
<<Anky was at Spruce last week and it was FABULOUS>>



Finally! someone who was there. I'd love to hear about the clinic/demos she did.

if you'd rather PM or email me, that's fine.

thanks.

Olympics2008
Sep. 16, 2006, 11:11 PM
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&#164;t=AnkySpruce1.flv

or directlink

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&current=AnkySpruce1.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch6

Part II

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&#164;t=AnkySprucePart2.flv

or directlink

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&current=AnkySprucePart2.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch5

silvia
Sep. 16, 2006, 11:21 PM
'relaxed' means with less impulsion and power, and 'tense' means giving the rider the ride of his life...it's a strange world over here.

Tell that to the SRS. Somehow I don't think they would agree!

nero
Sep. 17, 2006, 12:40 AM
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view¤t=AnkySpruce1.flv

or directlink

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&current=AnkySpruce1.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch6

Part II

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view¤t=AnkySprucePart2.flv

or directlink

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/ridergirl100/VIDEOS/?action=view&current=AnkySprucePart2.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch5


she is so charming isn't she. thanks for these, I love seeing her demos/clinics. she is delightful and has a lovely rapport with her ponies

nero
Sep. 17, 2006, 12:41 AM
I do think she was scored too high in Athens, which was just 2 years ago. Oh man, let it go!!!!

kelliope
Sep. 17, 2006, 02:24 AM
Thank you so much for posting the short demo videos! I just adore her and have always enjoyed watching her demonstrations or seeing her in a clinic setting. She is just amazing!!!!!

kelliope
Sep. 17, 2006, 02:26 AM
she is so charming isn't she. thanks for these, I love seeing her demos/clinics. she is delightful and has a lovely rapport with her ponies


Nero, I couldn't agree more! I really like her personality and charm!

Sabine
Sep. 17, 2006, 03:15 AM
Jeez- gone for a couple of days and you'all manage to cook up a lovely broth- brimming with spice and all...LOL!

I think it was a very good ride- not her best ever- but very solid- and I think Anky has a commanding fluidity as a rider in the Musical Freestyle now- where she really is so at home- that her confidence can pick up her horse and make him shine- I have to hand it to Anky more than to Sal on this round...with maturity- she will be even stronger- and in my book she did not have the easiest show at WEG.

She was better than the rest of the field- but I think she herself had better MF's with Sal. I just felt her own strength shining thru- she was determined and Sal kind of acknowledged that and played- not to his fullest but much beyond the previous days.

I think you have to agree that riding MF's really well is a totally different cup of tea than doing GPs. You have to be so at home and comfy and dancing- that the looseness and the dancy parts are what sticks in your mind.

canyonoak
Sep. 17, 2006, 10:42 AM
Olympics2008, thanks so much for the videos.

Anky really can walk the walk and chew gum at the same time!

LOL

YoungFilly
Sep. 17, 2006, 06:21 PM
Olympics2008 that was so cool of you to share the videos! Krack C is an awesome horse! We saw a few of his offspring when we were in the Netherlands. There was one young one that I fell madly in love with, I would have brought him home in a heartbeat if I could have gotten him to do anything. He was wonderful, cute, funny, playful and talented! He sure could sit too, wow!

As far as Anky's ride goes, I just re-watched the video. I think I got the impression of tension from Anky herself! At the begining, she looks nervous, and during the two tempis, It looks like the horse might be tight. The ones also looked a little short and tight (at least to me). Anky is the one that looked tight and nervous, but in the end worked out of it. The horse, on a second review wasn't as tense as I origionally thought he was. :)

Frankly, I would love to get this good, so who am I to judge? :)

Horsedances
Sep. 17, 2006, 07:30 PM
YoungFilly,

After the WEG Anky told that Salinero didn't give her the opportunity to have her normal seat in the saddle. When you can understand Dutch you will also hear the commentators confirm this.

Horses are so fun to work with, because they are always full of supprises.

Since Lingh is accepted as a breeding stallion, we also see that Edward has to work much harder to get the job done in the dressage-arena.

Theo

shea'smom
Sep. 17, 2006, 07:46 PM
Well, I stayed up until 2:00 am and watched all the rides last night! First of all, I appreciate the videos so much, thanks!
I was worried that Anky's win had political overtones, but having seen all rides, I think she deserved the win. Although, some of the other rides were lovely, her's was the most faultless. Few other horses can compair to her piaffe and passage, especially. So, although the picture is sometimes more appealing, she deserved the win, in my eyes.
That poor Elvis, what's up with the piaffe!? I loved the softness of the older lady? All in all, such high quality for us to enjoy!

AM
Sep. 17, 2006, 08:11 PM
I thought Salinero's passage was agonzingly slow. No wonder he receives high scores for his transitions into and out of piaffe. You can barely see forward movement in the passage. I much prefered the ones that had regularity, suspension and forward movement.

suzy
Sep. 17, 2006, 08:33 PM
Some of these judges need to see a horse a liberty to know what some of these moves are actually supposed to look like -- for example, the passage, and the extended trot.

Suzy, I don't know what to say other than I'm not talking about an upside down passage in the pasture. I'm talking about a horse that floats because he has impulsion and self-carriage.

Um, "at liberty" means loose, unimpeded by a rider or any tack. So, that means either loose in the paddock, round pen, open field, or whatever. Not sure what you're trying to get at or if you did not know the definition of "at liberty."

nero
Sep. 17, 2006, 10:41 PM
I thought Salinero's passage was agonzingly slow. No wonder he receives high scores for his transitions into and out of piaffe. You can barely see forward movement in the passage. I much prefered the ones that had regularity, suspension and forward movement.
I agree this time Sal's passage lacked forward, but his transistions are even better when he is more forward and therefore its probably not correct to suggest his lack of forward is why the trans are so good. I think that Anky was tense at WEG and probably not letting the horse forward as much as she could have. Generally his passage is worthy of 9s and is very forward and shows excellent suspension.

Horsedances
Sep. 17, 2006, 10:54 PM
I agree this time Sal's passage lacked forward, but his transistions are even better when he is more forward and therefore its probably not correct to suggest his lack of forward is why the trans are so good. I think that Anky was tense at WEG and probably not letting the horse forward as much as she could have. Generally his passage is worthy of 9s and is very forward and shows excellent suspension.

For the same amount of money we could discuss the passage of Matiné being to much forward. As I understand from all the judge clinics the perfect passage is what the Germans call "halbe schritte"

And when the passage is lacking forward, the music would have gone out of sync.

Theo

nero
Sep. 17, 2006, 11:25 PM
For the same amount of money we could discuss the passage of Matiné being to much forward. As I understand from all the judge clinics the perfect passage is what the Germans call "halbe schritte"

And when the passage is lacking forward, the music would have gone out of sync.

TheoExactly, that is why Anky and Sal were behind their music for the first minute of the freestyle, and why I think there was a glitch in the first extended trot, she was trying to get back on the music.

Olympics2008
Sep. 18, 2006, 12:08 AM
Being ahead or behind the music doesn't mean that her first PaPi tour was out of sync. There were other things going on during the entry and the halt and salut which caused that she had to halt to early.

When the judge at C had followed the rules Anky should had have eliminated or at least had gotten some minus points.

But hé I am new to this dressage-world.

Theo

Sabine
Sep. 18, 2006, 12:12 AM
Theo- you are such a freak show...!LOL!

Olympics2008
Sep. 18, 2006, 12:32 AM
Take you stopwatch and shiver.

The maximun time between the bel-signal and the start of the music is 45 seconds, and after the music starts you have maximum 20 seconds before entering the ring at A.

Anky used +53 seconds and +25 seconds

BUT, the rules also say that a minute-clock have to be placed within the view
of the riders, IF NOT the judge at C have to give an extra bel-signal to notify the rider that she has only 15 seconds to go. But who knows the rules ;) :no:

Theo

nero
Sep. 18, 2006, 12:33 AM
Being ahead or behind the music doesn't mean that her first PaPi tour was out of sync. There were other things going on during the entry and the halt and salut which caused that she had to halt to early.

When the judge at C had followed the rules Anky should had have eliminated or at least had gotten some minus points.

But h&#233; I am new to this dressage-world.

TheoWhatever Theo - not sure why you are posting with two handles, but whatever floats your boat. To my mind she was behind on the music because her passage entering into the ring (NOT the first p and p tour so you've missed my point) was a bit less forward than usual, travelled less and was a tad slower, and from the first salute she was behind and not at the same position on the arena she normally salutes.

But whatever I say you'll disagree with so I'll just shut up now, and you can go back to being right on everything. Well YOU and HORSEDANCES I guess!!! Helps to be more right when you post with more than one handle!

At the end of the day its all irrelevant anyway, my only point was that, I, too, thought his passage was less forward at WEG than usual. And I'll stick to my opinion. You can love Anky and Sal and still acknowledge some faults that might appear from time to time.

Horsedances
Sep. 18, 2006, 02:01 AM
I have tried to point out that the problems started because Anky's entry music was 10 seconds longer as normal. (check all the video's on my website) To end at the right spot (which she did) to start the test. She had ro ride less forward during her entry, because she toke the wrong spot for her start.

Because they have changed the entry-music so often (remember she did enter in walk several times) Anky (or her musicmakers) lost track.

At least this was an entrance in conflict with the rules.

Furthermore I am in the process of upgrading all our systems with TV-cards and recorders, so sometimes I use my wife's laptop to spread my wisdom <lol>

Theo

slc2
Sep. 18, 2006, 08:56 AM
while yes the rules give a certain amount of time for entry, i dont think a freestyle should be made or broke on how much in synch the start is. that's why klimke said the winner will be the best music man, and i think that can be taken too far. i think there is at least some importance in the freestyle being strong technically. sure it's great to synch with the music, but no, that's not THE only thing to judge on.

canyonoak
Sep. 18, 2006, 10:11 AM
So--Olympics2008--was that a joke, moving the videocamera all around like that up
and
down
and
oooooverrrrr

during the Anky demos at Spruce Meadows?

LOL

Olympics2008
Sep. 18, 2006, 10:35 AM
while yes the rules give a certain amount of time for entry, i dont think a freestyle should be made or broke on how much in synch the start is. that's why klimke said the winner will be the best music man, and i think that can be taken too far. i think there is at least some importance in the freestyle being strong technically. sure it's great to synch with the music, but no, that's not THE only thing to judge on.

SLC2, you are 100% right. And the guidlines for the judges make clear points about this, saying that a modest technical performance can not score high at the artistical side of the scoresheet. Furthermore the coëfficient for the choice of music and interpretation of the music has changed from 6 to 4 last month.

Theo

Olympics2008
Sep. 18, 2006, 10:37 AM
So--Olympics2008--was that a joke, moving the videocamera all around like that up
and
down
and
oooooverrrrr

during the Anky demos at Spruce Meadows?

LOL

That was to hide toooo much hyperflexion :cool: ;)

pinecone
Sep. 18, 2006, 03:40 PM
sure it's great to synch with the music, but no, that's not THE only thing to judge on.


Anky still would have been the winner, even if the winner had been determined on the technical aspects alone. Four of the judges had her first technically, and the fifth judge had her tied with Andreas and Matine.

bjrudq
Sep. 20, 2006, 12:19 AM
you should have known that to ask if anky's was the best ride would provoke a fight.

any opinion but "yes, of course" is going to be lambasted.

did you all really want to discuss it, or just hear gushing?