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tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:20 AM
Check out the July issue of Horses for Life.

We must speak for those who have no voice.

horsesforlife.com

nhwr
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:46 AM
:sleepy:

Aunt Esther,
what do you think is the right color breeches for rolkur in July? And what is the proper menu to serve in the hospitality tent post rolkur? I know you prefer a good single malt but mojitos are very refreshing in the heat!

Inquiring minds want to know :yes:

Sabine
Aug. 14, 2006, 01:27 AM
Check out the July issue of Horses for Life.

We must speak for those who have no voice.

horsesforlife.com


I thought you were on a year long vacation to Europe to study proper riding...the absence of RK has been cleansing and actually allowed for a regrouping of old party lines- why don't we readdress this topic later....!

nero
Aug. 14, 2006, 02:12 AM
..................check this out.

Am posting this as an antidote to the 'stuff' on the OPs nominated site.

It's beautiful and very correct, if this is what rk can achieve I think crucifying it as an invalid training technique is wrong, esp when there is not proof its cruel!!!!

http://anky.nl/anky/news.php?language=EN&id=2063

Its the top pic, a better, more correct pic of a piaffe with lightness, submission, engagement and willingness I have not seen for a while, and he's still quite a young GP horse. Well done Anky and PB.

fiona
Aug. 14, 2006, 02:40 AM
So Ed what do you make of these allegations you have no voice?
Hey lady, pass me another one of those nice shiny apples. Did you say alligator???!!!!!

Ed, people say you can't really talk is it true?
did ya see my movies? i talk plenty but you gotta see my agent first and talk billing.

C'mon Ed this interview is going global we're talking BB's interweb the ethernet maybe even a new video on youtube give me something to work with here!
Ok ok, keep calm lady. Did you bring mints? i like a good mint.

Can you give us some insight into what an equine athlete thinks about training techniqes in general?
Well let me see, erm....errr....mmmm. Nope. Between you and me i got the brain the size of a walnut so i ain't really go the mental capacity to think in those terms. Had one helluva job learning dialogue - no post it notes back in them days see. Had all my lines hand engraved on slices of apple.... did you bring apples?

Ed, take a look at this picture... is this horse a happy athlete?
whoa, lady! that's a profound and complex question. Did ya bring carrots? carrots are good. Is that horse eating a mint on the way to the orchard? Kinda looks like he's drooling ...maybe he dropped the mint...i hate it when that happens. I always take a great big mouthful so's when they fall out the side of your mouth ya still got some left! see i'm not the big dumb creature y'all thought.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 14, 2006, 08:49 AM
..................check this out.

Am posting this as an antidote to the 'stuff' on the OPs nominated site.

It's beautiful and very correct, if this is what rk can achieve I think crucifying it as an invalid training technique is wrong, esp when there is not proof its cruel!!!!

http://anky.nl/anky/news.php?language=EN&id=2063

Its the top pic, a better, more correct pic of a piaffe with lightness, submission, engagement and willingness I have not seen for a while, and he's still quite a young GP horse. Well done Anky and PB.

That is lovely, Nero, thanks for posting the link.

tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:33 AM
I thought you were on a year long vacation to Europe to study proper riding...the absence of RK has been cleansing and actually allowed for a regrouping of old party lines- why don't we readdress this topic later....!
Only brought it up because someone posted about the Anky clinic and it just stirred me up.

"It's beautiful and very correct, if this is what rk can achieve I think crucifying it as an invalid training technique is wrong, esp when there is not proof its cruel!!!!"
Did you see the pictures? The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind.

[r.oo and l.ulu]
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:38 AM
So Ed what do you make of these allegations you have no voice?
Hey lady, pass me another one of those nice shiny apples. Did you say alligator???!!!!!

Ed, people say you can't really talk is it true?
did ya see my movies? i talk plenty but you gotta see my agent first and talk billing.

C'mon Ed this interview is going global we're talking BB's interweb the ethernet maybe even a new video on youtube give me something to work with here!
Ok ok, keep calm lady. Did you bring mints? i like a good mint.

Can you give us some insight into what an equine athlete thinks about training techniqes in general?
Well let me see, erm....errr....mmmm. Nope. Between you and me i got the brain the size of a walnut so i ain't really go the mental capacity to think in those terms. Had one helluva job learning dialogue - no post it notes back in them days see. Had all my lines hand engraved on slices of apple.... did you bring apples?

Ed, take a look at this picture... is this horse a happy athlete?
whoa, lady! that's a profound and complex question. Did ya bring carrots? carrots are good. Is that horse eating a mint on the way to the orchard? Kinda looks like he's drooling ...maybe he dropped the mint...i hate it when that happens. I always take a great big mouthful so's when they fall out the side of your mouth ya still got some left! see i'm not the big dumb creature y'all thought.

Actually their brain is the size of a baking potato. :winkgrin: Just a minor correction...carry on.

slc2
Aug. 14, 2006, 11:49 AM
"The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind."

if you didn't know who that was, and weren't biased, you would have made a completely different comment about that horse. tell me what on that horse's face bespeaks this horrible cruelty. my horse's face looks like that when i scratch his ears.

pinecone
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:02 PM
Oh poor, dear, (possibly crazy) Tewhann, if the mere mention of Anky's name sends you over the edge, perhaps you'd better close the blinds and log off of the computer and take a long nap until the WEG are over.

Or you could start 100 threads about rollkur and try to rehash the same old stuff over and over and over .

Your personal hatred of Anky is, well, rather creepy.

slc2
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:08 PM
they're called 'stalkers'

fiona
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:15 PM
Actually their brain is the size of a baking potato. :winkgrin: Just a minor correction...carry on.

Sadly Ed's brain is the size of a walnut on account of all the drinking he did on set. Whilst he mastered a fair range of verbal skills he never quite grasped the value of reading.....

Still water, Stolichnaya, surgical spirits all those mints the fans sent me ruined my taste buds jeez, i'm just a simple humble horse...why d'ya think i never got the gig in the spacecraft? they sent that pesky dog because he could read.

Thanks Ed but i think you're digressing somewhat, you're talking with DQ's not Droids

They coulda colour co ordinated the controls " one small leap for man not so much as a trotting pole for an equine" was my line i tell ya. "beam me up Trotting" was another. Then the big Busby Berkely musical number "there's rollkur on the starboard bow, star board bow, starboard bow"

Yes, thanks Ed. Think you should keep quiet now think you're alientating your demographic.


The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind."
Care to comment on the above Ed?
No? Sure?
Nothing you want to say?
Shame i'm sure he could have given us the view straight from the horses mouth so to speak but according to his agent he's way too busy training our Labrador puppies and polishing his new white stick.

Horsedances
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:15 PM
That's so funny SLC. I have the same with my wife when I scratch her ear. We call it the G-spot.





"The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind."

if you didn't know who that was, and weren't biased, you would have made a completely different comment about that horse. tell me what on that horse's face bespeaks this horrible cruelty. my horse's face looks like that when i scratch his ears.

Fun

fiona
Aug. 14, 2006, 12:17 PM
2 words spring to mind horsedances

satnav. disappointment

Aunt Esther
Aug. 14, 2006, 03:25 PM
:sleepy:

Aunt Esther,
what do you think is the right color breeches for rolkur in July? And what is the proper menu to serve in the hospitality tent post rolkur? I know you prefer a good single malt but mojitos are very refreshing in the heat!

Inquiring minds want to know :yes:
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, says that of course lighter breeches are better for Summer Rollkur, unless the rider is Of Abundance, during which one would of course Summer Rollkur in dark breeches.

Summer Rollkur Hospitality Tents should serve a lighter fare. Aunt Esther undrestands that there are some who still demand a soup course, and for these people Aunt Esther recommends gazpacho, chilled beet soup or vichyssoise, although vichyssoise can be a bit heavy in summer.

Aunt Esther is always a fan of gourmet summer fare, and thinks that Summer Rollkur Hospitality Tent hosts and hostesses should spare no expense in providing a vast selection of culinary delights.

Aunt Esther does not do mojitos. She prefers a cuba libre.

tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 04:22 PM
Oh poor, dear, (possibly crazy) Tewhann, if the mere mention of Anky's name sends you over the edge, perhaps you'd better close the blinds and log off of the computer and take a long nap until the WEG are over.

Or you could start 100 threads about rollkur and try to rehash the same old stuff over and over and over .

Your personal hatred of Anky is, well, rather creepy.
Personal hatred of Anky?????? Not sure where that one came from.

I have no opinion on Anky personally whatsoever.

tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 04:28 PM
"The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind."

if you didn't know who that was, and weren't biased, you would have made a completely different comment about that horse. tell me what on that horse's face bespeaks this horrible cruelty. my horse's face looks like that when i scratch his ears.
Take a look at the pics. ACTUALLY look at them. There are MANY different riders, most of whom I don't even recognize.

This isn't about a person. It's about a method.

However, when a proponent of this method"gives a clinic, it reminds us who oppose RK that the fight has just begun.

If this is just "one crazy person's issue" then why are renowned German trainers and judges making issue of this?

I wasn't sure whether anybody her knew about the pics on Horses for Life. While RK has been discussed in theory to death, there haven't been photo discussions----that I've seen.

SLC, I very seriously doubt your horse has that look on its face when you scratch its ears. It is quite easy to tell the difference between a "horsey face" in pain and one in pleasure.

Sabine
Aug. 14, 2006, 04:36 PM
There have been photo discussions at nauseum on this board and ...pardon me if I barf...and if you haven't gotten the drift yet- everyone here is really OVER it.

You should post this over on UDBB- there is a big cheering crowd for topics like this one...:)

nhwr
Aug. 14, 2006, 04:39 PM
Only brought it up because someone posted about the Anky clinic and it just stirred me up.,


Finally some truth on one of these wacko topics. This is an issue related to the riders more than the method.

tewhann
they make medicine for this :rolleyes:

slc2
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:06 PM
tewhann, we are very, very tired of rollkur discussions here. post it elsewhere, we're tired of it.

slc2
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:06 PM
tewhann, we are very, very tired of rollkur discussions here. post it elsewhere, we're tired of it.

Patootie
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:09 PM
I am curious how one can see 'pain' in a photo. I have seen photos of myself from various social events. I think some of them look pained like you see these horses. But I also know the next moment I was laughing and happy for many of them.

So how is it you can wage a whole battle, based on an assessment that's based on a photo?

Are you psychic?

Patootie
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:11 PM
PS. Am I mistaking something, or did someone post now that they've invented a satellite navigational system that will locate G-Spots.

Please advise.

Aunt Esther
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:13 PM
PS. Am I mistaking something, or did someone post now that they've invented a satellite navigational system that will locate G-Spots.

Please advise.
Aunt Esther, national and international Purse Champion, hopes that this does not turn into a Vagina Monologue.

Mozart
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:26 PM
I fear things are about to take a TMI turn around here. :eek:
A propos of the anatomy issue, I have SUCH good court room story about a lawyer's ignorance of anatomy, but alas, I cannot share it here. I will just have to tell you all in person next time I see you in the hospitality tent ;)

ideayoda
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:28 PM
Pity that someone does not realize that the horses may be even more tired of standing on the head and getting kicked if they dare raise a muscle to defend themselves. And of course a GP (horse) really should know not to argue or another couple of hours will be added with some free walk with nose on knees. Upper level training at its best.

fiona
Aug. 14, 2006, 05:37 PM
PS. Am I mistaking something, or did someone post now that they've invented a satellite navigational system that will locate G-Spots.
Please advise.

No my point was if you think the G-spot is to be found behind the ears you need sat nav because you are utterly lost.



Pity that someone does realize that the horses may be even more tired of standing on the head and getting kicked if they dare raise a muscle to defend themselves. And of course a GP really should know not to argue or another couple of hours will be added with some free walk with nose on knees. Upper level training at its best.

Yup, recognised all the words, no idea what it means. Reading over rated imho. can i get extra mints with that?
Thanks Ed.

Patootie
Aug. 14, 2006, 06:21 PM
With all do respect to the Aunt, I think I would prefer a female Anatomy discussion to listening to more unintelligible philosophical diarrhea of the keyboard from the self-proclaimed holiest of holies.

Sannois
Aug. 14, 2006, 06:31 PM
Alagirl was just asking me last night if the topic of Rollkur had come up on the dressage board lately! :lol: Guess we spoke too soon.
I said "Naah They dont talk about that anymore, That horse is DEAD!! ":lol:
Guess we jinxed it! Sorry!
Oh and for what its worth, I saw the pic that I think Nero posted, That looks like a beautiful piaffe Whats wrong with it?? Guess I missed something. :confused:

Pony Fixer
Aug. 14, 2006, 07:30 PM
Tewha....

In my profession, I've seen many horses in real pain. Twisted gut, near death, badly foundered, "please end it" pain. None of those horses looked like those in the pics. In fact one of the chestnuts I thought had a really soft, kind eye.

And as another poster said, how can you really tell from a pic? I too have photos of me caught in some moment where I look horridly wretched, yet I know I was not in pain at the time.

And horses with any white anywhere around the sclera (my horse has a small unpigmented area) can falsely appear to be eye rolling. I have many ON THE VERTICAL pics from the right where I have to look twice at him.

Can we change the subject now?

dq for life
Aug. 14, 2006, 07:47 PM
Change the subject? Heck no! Some of us are waiting for more on the "G-Spot Satellite Locator".
Will there be a 1-800 number to follow to order such a device?

nero
Aug. 14, 2006, 07:53 PM
Oh and for what its worth, I saw the pic that I think Nero posted, That looks like a beautiful piaffe Whats wrong with it?? Guess I missed something. :confused:

Nothing wrong with it, that's my point. An RK horse though!

But then again according to Tewhann, I'm blind, so how would I know, I can't even see the pic!!! LOL

pinecone
Aug. 14, 2006, 09:22 PM
Yoda, is english your second language? I'm not sure what in the world you were trying to say. Tewhann needs some of whatever you are apparently drinking.

I think Horsedances needs the satellite G-spot locator, because I don't believe the G-spot is located anywhere near the ears (lol).

Aunt Esther, do I have to wear white to poke trolls after Memorial Day?

And lastly, is that other board broken down again? Are we now going to have dozens of rollkur threads to look forward to? If so, I hope they get it fixed quickly. Unless rollkur has eaten any more of SLC's baby dingoes, I'm not interested.

Touchstone Farm
Aug. 14, 2006, 09:41 PM
Tewhann, don't let them discourage you. Post away -- it's a free country. Personally, I don't like zwankesjacke one bit. One has to wonder why some would discourage discussion...unless they don't like to be reminded of what zwankesjacke stands for. If they don't like what you post, they don't have to read it and comment!

nero
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:08 PM
Tewhann, don't let them discourage you. Post away -- it's a free country. Personally, I don't like zwankesjacke one bit. One has to wonder why some would discourage discussion...unless they don't like to be reminded of what zwankesjacke stands for. If they don't like what you post, they don't have to read it and comment!

In what way is the OP a discussion???? Seemed like an inflammatory, over generalised statement to me, designed to get an equally over emotional response from fellow rk haters that is based on the so called 'visceral' reaction to the method, but not an educated one - one which has been done to death by the same handful of people time and time again.

tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:17 PM
Nothing wrong with it, that's my point. An RK horse though!

But then again according to Tewhann, I'm blind, so how would I know, I can't even see the pic!!! LOL
You guys just crack me up! Look at the pics I posted and then tell me nothing's wrong. Don't pull out a shot from the show arena. Show me the schooling arena. That is where the truth is told.

Hey, any time you want the thread to drop, you can just quit posting!

What is always most telling is those who try to inflame another poster rather than debate a point on the merrits of their side (should it have any).

I guess you think if you name call enough it somehow lessens my point?

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way with intelligent people. Name call away. You don't bother me one bit.

tewhann
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:24 PM
,


Finally some truth on one of these wacko topics. This is an issue related to the riders more than the method.

tewhann
they make medicine for this :rolleyes:
Ah, this is one of my favorites. For those a bit slow on the uptake, let me reiterate my point: The name Anky does bring RK to mind. Why, might you ask? Because she is a very outspoken proponent of it. It's that simple. There are many others who are also outspoken proponents. Were their names mentioned, it would also bring RK to mind.

Why? Is it a personal vendetta? Is it an unhealthy obsession with these riders?

No, these riders and trainers aren't the target it's the METHOD that is the target. Now, for the petty among you, I know this is a hard concept, but stick with me for just a minute more.

What people like me and Walter Zettl, and Klaus Balkenhol and many others believe is that these methods are directing the sport of Dressage in a way that is not beneficial to the horses and is the actual antithesis of what Dressage should be.

The goal is to educate. The goal is to reverse the change.

This isn't a witch hunt.

Sorry it lacks the drama some of you folks so plainly seek.

nero
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:31 PM
You guys just crack me up! Look at the pics I posted and then tell me nothing's wrong. Don't pull out a shot from the show arena. Show me the schooling arena. That is where the truth is told.

Hey, any time you want the thread to drop, you can just quit posting!

What is always most telling is those who try to inflame another poster rather than debate a point on the merrits of their side (should it have any).

I guess you think if you name call enough it somehow lessens my point?

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way with intelligent people. Name call away. You don't bother me one bit.

Who's name calling????? You were the one who said if we were not outraged by the pics you pointed us to we must be blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about inflammatory.

Have been happy to debate the merits, or more importantly the lack of problems, with RK for many years, go do a search because I realy couldn't be bothered getting into yet another slanging match with you about it. Its al been said before, didn't you get that point!

I don't need to show the schooling arena pics , you did (eye roll) and I have NO problem with those pics either. The pic I posted was to show that the technique of RK does result in correct dressage, and, if like me, you have no issue with the method being used in the warm up/schooling arena then what's the problem?!!! To me there is none.

Horsedances
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:34 PM
What people like me and Walter Zettl, and Klaus Balkenhol and many others believe is that these methods are directing the sport of Dressage in a way that is not beneficial to the horses and is the actual antithesis of what Dressage should be.

What people like Walter Zettl, Klaus Balkenhol, many others and me.

Patootie
Aug. 14, 2006, 10:36 PM
Aunt Esther, do I have to wear white to poke trolls after Memorial Day?

I'm not Aunt Esther, but I think the rules say you only have to where white when troll poking after Memorial day if you plan to poke them behind the ears right on the G-spot, unless of course you have poked previously, and then it is appropriate to where off-white.

nhwr
Aug. 14, 2006, 11:57 PM
What people like me and Walter Zettl, and Klaus Balkenhol and many others believe is that these methods are directing the sport of Dressage in a way that is not beneficial to the horses and is the actual antithesis of what Dressage should be.

The goal is to educate. The goal is to reverse the change.

This isn't a witch hunt.
Then why does the mention of a rider's name get you, by your own admission, "stirred up"?

Actually I think for at least one of the people you mentioned, the goal is to increase their net worth ;)

Sabine
Aug. 15, 2006, 01:03 AM
Funny NHWR- well I think Zettl means well and is innocent- I think KB is in a different boat- he's keeping dressage in GERMANY- and we are condoning that by making him our national trainer, he's also putting the holier than thou cap on- after retiring from active competition...it's easy to condemn all the new methods- he doesn't have to perform anymore and come up with GP score of 79 or better...LOL!!!
Yourself- Tewhann- well I think you are your own champion- it sounds to me a lot like an emotional reaction from someone that has never been near someone like the ones you are condemning...somehow a weird picture don't you think!!????

fiona
Aug. 15, 2006, 03:05 AM
There will indeed be a a 1-800 number for the Satnav which is preprogrammed to find the G-spot from any location in the world. Luckily it is a fairly sophisiticated device and will not automatically lead you to the wrong wife who may or may not be in Belgium or Holland.

You can choose the language of your choice to hear classic phrases such as "are you there yet?" plus those long moody silences when you have failed to follow the instructions and the machine goes awol before uttering the famous "make a u-turn if possible" after the only junction for 53 miles. But best of all at no point will this machine utter one word on the subject rollkur. Yay!

On a more serious note: If you put up a picture of a lovely horse and rider executing piaffe with the comment if you don't see the pain in the horses face you must be blind or words to that effect you are not going to get taken seriously. RK has been done to death everyone knows where they stand the discusssion very quickly becomes emotive, manipulative, inflammatory and frankly dull.

I think off white/white is personal preference for troll thwacking but it is never wrong to wear sequins when wielding the cast iron fry pan.

THWACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 08:25 AM
tewhann, tewhann, tewhann. Nobody wants to discuss rollkur with you because it has already been discussed to death, there is nothing left to say, no new information to add, and frankly listening to the same inflammatory emotional anti-rollkur rhetoric is irritating and boring. yawn.

This is much more fun, instead.

poke poke.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 15, 2006, 08:28 AM
I really wish all the energy that's put towards the "evils of rolkur" would be channeled into outrage over real abuse... people starving horses, horses standing at the auction because they are too slow. At least the rolkur people aren't sending their failures to the auction in droves.

http://www.mnhoovedanimalrescue.org/images/horses/sierra.jpg

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 09:15 AM
I really wish all the energy that's put towards the "evils of rolkur" would be channeled into outrage over real abuse... people starving horses, horses standing at the auction because they are too slow. At least the rolkur people aren't sending their failures to the auction in droves.

http://www.mnhoovedanimalrescue.org/images/horses/sierra.jpg
Oh, don't worry. There's plenty of energy to go around.

How do you know what the RK people do with their failures?

Calhoun
Aug. 15, 2006, 10:44 AM
Is the OP talking about the "Someone's Going to Get Hurt" article? I went and looked at the photos and the gal on the big bay should apply to the "rider protection program" and never be seen in dressage public again.


BTW, I subscribe to the online magazine and look forward to reading it every month.

Kareen
Aug. 15, 2006, 10:58 AM
tewhann, tewhann, tewhann. Nobody wants to discuss rollkur with you because it has already been discussed to death, there is nothing left to say, no new information to add, and frankly listening to the same inflammatory emotional anti-rollkur rhetoric is irritating and boring. yawn.

This is much more fun, instead.

poke poke.


Right there's nothing left to say. Quite remarkable how this topic again is on page 3 *LOL*

fiona
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:31 AM
Anky should be hung upside down by her toenails from a large tree. And all her little worshippers who indulge in the torture with her. It makes me want to puke.


I went and looked at the photos and the gal on the big bay should apply to the "rider protection program" and never be seen in dressage public again.


I find these comments incredibly offensive. They are threating and imply an intent to do harm.

fiona
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE]Did you see the pictures? The horses' faces tell the cruelty. Anyone who cannot see that is blind.[QUOTE]

Whereas that is just rude and ignorant.

fiona
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:38 AM
Here's a link to some pictures of some horses - do they look "happy"? should these riders be villified too?
http://www.lipizzan.com/spr.html

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:00 PM
I don't *think* those photos show what the ones in Horses for Life do, but the photo quality isn't really quite good enough to tell. The first photo is the only one that I'd really like a closer look at. The others are almost surely quite different indeed.

As to villifying riders, I cannot think of how many times now that I've said this is about METHOD not INDIVIDUALS.

And, perhaps you are right about my "blind" comment. It definitely isn't my most tactful sentence ever. As to arrogance, I have none. My intent isn't to be "right". My intent is to speak for those who have no voice, namely these wonderful horses

Patootie
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:01 PM
Anky should be hung upside down by her toenails from a large tree. And all her little worshippers who indulge in the torture with her. It makes me want to puke.



Quote:
I went and looked at the photos and the gal on the big bay should apply to the "rider protection program" and never be seen in dressage public again.



I find these comments incredibly offensive. They are threating and imply an intent to do harm.

Agreed. I think I would have to wonder about what type of person would become so incredibly hostile as to make these statements based on a picture, and yet claim to be patient, compassionate, and non-judgemental atop a horse.



Here's a link to some pictures of some horses - do they look "happy"? should these riders be villified too?
http://www.lipizzan.com/spr.html

They're quite happy actually, that's the "Scratch-Me-Behind-My-Ears-and-Tickle-My-G-Spot" look.

slc2
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:04 PM
"Anky should be hung upside down by her toenails from a large tree"

"it's about a METHOD, not individuals"

SUUUUURE it is. now take your klonopin.

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:06 PM
Um, I'm not the one who wrote about hanging from toes and I actually though that person was being sarcastic.

Patootie
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:07 PM
As to arrogance, I have none. My intent isn't to be "right". My intent is to speak for those who have no voice, namely these wonderful horses

If they have no voice, then it's honestly arrogant to say that you're the one speaking for them. But then, if you're actually hearing their voices talking to you and only to you, then I think you would be best served to get out of the barn more and seek serious professional help with lots and lots of medication.

A little too much narcissism in your coffee this morning?

etk
Aug. 15, 2006, 12:56 PM
I really wish all the energy that's put towards the "evils of rolkur" would be channeled into outrage over real abuse... people starving horses, horses standing at the auction because they are too slow. http://www.mnhoovedanimalrescue.org/images/horses/sierra.jpg

Agree 100%.

Horsedances
Aug. 15, 2006, 01:06 PM
It seems that after the big blackout of the UDBboard some weeks ago some people from that board are still hanging around here, digging out dead cows.

Please GO HOME :yes:

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 01:30 PM
My intent is to speak for those who have no voice, namely these wonderful horses

Well, I'm sure horses across the world will sleep better tonight knowing that you've appointed yourself as their spokesman. (rolling eyes) But noooo, you're not arrogant, or so you claim.

I agree with fiona, some of you (including you, tewhann) are so hateful and obsessive you really are creepy.

Kareen, it's a topic with "rollkur" in the header, did you expect it to die quickly? Even the "rollkur ate my baby" thread lasted for pageS, lol.

Tewhann dear, you really did come to the wrong place to Anky bash. (yeah, sure, you're going to claim you're not Anky bashing, but then in the next breath you'll say you're rehashing this stuff because you saw Anky's name and it made you crazy and inspired you to start aNOTHER rollkur thread, so yes, it's Anky bashing, no matter how you want to pathetically attempt to disguise it.)

Pathetic. and creepy.

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 01:40 PM
Well, I'm sure horses across the world will sleep better tonight knowing that you've appointed yourself as their spokesman.
I'm no spokesperson, just one of many (some famous, some not) who believe in pushing what we see as best for the horse.



Tewhann dear, you really did come to the wrong place to Anky bash. (yeah, sure, you're going to claim you're not Anky bashing, but then in the next breath you'll say you're rehashing this stuff because you saw Anky's name and it made you crazy and inspired you to start aNOTHER rollkur thread, so yes, it's Anky bashing, no matter how you want to pathetically attempt to disguise it.)

Pathetic. and creepy.
Those in great need of constant drama may construe it this way, but as I've explained before, it's about METHOD. It's about education. It's about keeping something important on the table.

I understand that not everyone cannot comprehend this.

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 01:44 PM
Ya know, the more I read threads on this board, the more I just cannot believe how defensive and down right nasty some people are to one another (this thread is actually pretty tame compared to some I see).

Maybe group therapy is in order?

tradewind
Aug. 15, 2006, 03:14 PM
tewhann..after having read countless RK threads and never having replied to one..I just have one really short comment to make..BLECH...if you really believe in this particular issue, you need to figure out a way to not be so unbelievably offensive to others...screaming, ranting, and raving, are not the way to get people to listen...in fact it turns potential allies off..take out some booth space at horse related events, turn out some educational literature, find some riders that agree with you to do demos at these same events showing an alternative training method that garners good results..posting pictures taken out of context with hostile comments attached on this board is really not doing your cause any good..if indeed that is really what your are after, and I am not so sure it is..your posts make me think that you are one of those people who prefers to stir the pot, rather than find a truly workable solution to the issue you propose to be so passionate about.

dq for life
Aug. 15, 2006, 04:19 PM
So true tradewind. But instead people like that are just typical loud mouthed "railbirds" who 9 times out of 10 can point out all the errors, but of course can't do it themselves.
For some reason it is there personal mission to "inform the public" on bulletin boards. Yaaaa, suuuuuuuure!

ideayoda
Aug. 15, 2006, 04:57 PM
So the german riding and driving proffi organization who put a fold out poster (in St Georg) which said "rk/hyperflexion/to this we say no thank you' plus an explaination are just railbirds who want to stir the pot.

Patootie
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:06 PM
Yes, however it's quite interesting that the german's, especially Balkenhol himself, were not so much in an uproar when Nicole was using it.

nhwr
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:10 PM
Maybe KB just wants a silver or gold medal for the team he coaches. Check out his comp plan. If the dutch are disqualified, the US has a good shot at least a silver medal in the next Olympics and he gets a big fat bonus.

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:41 PM
So the german riding and driving proffi organization who put a fold out poster (in St Georg) which said "rk/hyperflexion/to this we say no thank you' plus an explaination are just railbirds who want to stir the pot.


Railbirds? Who knows. Stirring the pot? Absolutely. Bitter over being challenged by the Dutch? Probably. Looking for attention? Maybe. Truly concerned only for the welfare of the horse and with no other agenda? NO WAY.

nhwr, that's an interesting bit of information. Many have questioned KB's motives, but I was not aware there was a monetary incentive as well.

Surely there is nobody who genuinely believes that the motives of the anti-rollkur anti-Anky anti-dressage fanatics are pure? A person doesn't even have to be PRO-rollkur to seriously question the motives of the anti's.

Sabine
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
Maybe KB just wants a silver or gold medal for the team he coaches. Check out his comp plan. If the dutch are disqualified, the US has a good shot at least a silver medal in the next Olympics and he gets a big fat bonus.
and why may I ask would the dutch be disqualified??

fiona
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
It's about education. It's about keeping something important on the table.
I understand that not everyone cannot comprehend this.


It's not about education it's about pushing your point of view which would be palatable if it was done in a less emotive more erudite style.

You don't need to "keep this topic on the table" it's been shoved down our throats to the extent that i am sure i'm not alone in saying i'm heartily sick of it. IF you really cared about this topic you'd better serve your point of view by posting a picture of a rider and trainer you approve of that is out in international competition where we all have a chance to see the work instead of alienating the people you'd like to reach.



So the german riding and driving proffi organization who put a fold out poster (in St Georg) which said "rk/hyperflexion/to this we say no thank you' plus an explaination are just railbirds who want to stir the pot.
__________________


Nobody said they were - the responses here are regarding the OP. However the German Proffi organisation has a huge horse industry to serve people may well wonder about their motives.

nhwr
Aug. 15, 2006, 05:58 PM
and why may I ask would the dutch be disqualified??
Because their training method is "abusive and cruel". And the team wouldn't even really have to be disqualified, just broken up or discreditted.

I am not saying that this is why KB acts the way he does. But it sure could be :yes:

ideayoda
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:10 PM
The germans were DEFINATLEY in an uproar wayyyy before this (ie with Uphoff, before that with the jump riders)....ie 25 years ago. There were many articles in Reiter Revue and Niggli himself had a #*$($& in the press about the situation.

Guess the rules 'push a point of view' as well.....but those who want to show by them should use them.

Horsedances
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:19 PM
The germans were DEFINATLEY in an uproar wayyyy before this (ie with Uphoff, before that with the jump riders)....ie 25 years ago. There were many articles in Reiter Revue and Niggli himself had a #*$($& in the press about the situation.

The pot and kettle saga again.

Did you ever look over the fence to see the toolbox of the Old-Masters.:confused:

Probably not.

indyblue
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:25 PM
Exactly Horsedances.No the Old Masters training methods are only seen through rose tinted glasses.

ideayoda
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:33 PM
Actually they dont/didnt, they heartily debated with one another. However, they all looked at the creating the same balance and collection (until levade) with all horses. Rk changes the focus of balance as a concept of training totally.

Sabine
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:43 PM
Because their training method is "abusive and cruel". And the team wouldn't even really have to be disqualified, just broken up or discreditted.

I am not saying that this is why KB acts the way he does. But it sure could be :yes:

I get it- yeah- but ...yawn....they all would have to get up earlier and figure out some essential things first...like creating absolute lightness, using tact instead of force and...and...and...

let's face it - right now- the dutch are just a tad better.....

Patootie
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:45 PM
I wonder where Yoda gets this stuff? Little tid bits grabbed hither and yon?

You need to look at the big picture in Germany before you decide exactly when they really started to become loud about rollkur.

Horsedances
Aug. 15, 2006, 06:56 PM
Actually they dont/didnt, they heartily debated with one another. However, they all looked at the creating the same balance and collection (until levade) with all horses. Rk changes the focus of balance as a concept of training totally.

Keep dreaming Paula :cool:

mbm
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:01 PM
Keep dreaming Paula :cool:

Theo please enlighten us as to what the ODGs *did* talk about ... ???

mbm
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:05 PM
The pot and kettle saga again.

Did you ever look over the fence to see the toolbox of the Old-Masters.:confused:

Probably not.

Theo please enlighten us to what tools you are talking about/.... if we looked over the fence at an ODG (say klimke or Podjasky or Watjen or WAZ or Steinbrect or Seunig or...) what would we see???? and not the random Rogue horse that needs to be taught a lesson... but the everyday horses that are being worked.... what woudl we see that would shock us?? because you (and others) keep saying stuff like this but then dont tell us exactly what you mean... .

i know it is very hard to write about riding/training i am sure that some things got lost in translation etc.... (edited)

mbm
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:12 PM
Because their training method is "abusive and cruel". And the team wouldn't even really have to be disqualified, just broken up or discreditted.

I am not saying that this is why KB acts the way he does. But it sure could be :yes:

this is interesting and something i think about..... if someone changes their mind or become vocal about something, (not just roll kur) they tend to get accused of various things (none to nice).... but what about someone changing their mind because they have learned something that makes them have a change of heart, or they have decided that the cost is too high or that the ends dont justify the means??? isnt that valid??

i mean the more i learn, the more my thoughts on things get refined - and sometimes i have a 360 degree change of heart. and while i am not KB (or others) i do think that it is possible for even the top people to learn and change.

tewhann
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:24 PM
tewhann..after having read countless RK threads and never having replied to one..I just have one really short comment to make..BLECH...if you really believe in this particular issue, you need to figure out a way to not be so unbelievably offensive to others...screaming, ranting, and raving, are not the way to get people to listen...in fact it turns potential allies off.
Ok, could you please point out where I've screamed, ranted or raved?? Yes, I made ONE remark about how stunned I was that people didn't see anything wrong w/the pics I posted. Yes, I phrased it as "you must be blind" or something which WAS less friendly than it could have been. I admit that.

What else have I typed that is so dramatically offensive?

Given the complete slam I am getting from some people on this post, I think I've been extraordinarily agreeable. Trying many times to explain my position. Just to get slammed again.

Now, I don't really care what these people think of me, but it is nothing less than amazing to me that you think that I am the one being offensive, screaming, ranting, and lets not leave out raving.

Remaining perplexed,

Tiffany

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:26 PM
Guess the rules 'push a point of view' as well.....but those who want to show by them should use them.


yawn, we're back to this nonsense?

Speaking in generalizations: the judges follow the rules, the riders follow the rules, the performances adhere to the FEI's objectives as closely as the riders/horses are able on a given day.

Yoda, it might benefit you to familiarize yourself with the rules and objectives of dressage a bit more thoroughly, because there are MANY. And then (armed with this enlightened view) watch some of the top performances, and you'll not be able to say with any credibility that the riders are not fulfilling many/most of the objectives either at least SATISFACTORILY (6), or more often FAIRLY GOOD (7) GOOD (8) or sometimes VERY GOOD (9), which is what is reflected in the final scores, which is WHAT JUDGING IS ABOUT. It's not about fanatics and agendas, it's about determining who best fulfilled the objectives of dressage on a given day (ALL of the objectives yoda, not just YOUR favorites, wink.)

Did you miss the threads (here, and on "that other" board) discussing and comparing the photos of winning rides/riders from the 1920's to today? Some excellent points were made, including the fact that the "flaws" for which the modern riders are accused WERE EVIDENT "BACK THEN" ALSO. And many good points were made to point out ways in which the newer photos were (gasp) BETTER. You might find those threads quite educational, I recommend them. Perhaps then we can put to rest this absurd notion that somehow modern riding is not fulfilling the objectives of dressage as well as "classical" riding was.

Oh, oops, I was trying to avoid any serious posting, and was just hanging around for troll poking!

PS, Patootie, don't worry, we ALL wonder where yoda gets this stuff...

Show me a fanatic without an agenda, and I'll ride my next GP naked. We won't even need satellite for that (hahaha).

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:28 PM
Oh good grief shut the door quickly, ALL the trolls are migrating over here!

class
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:39 PM
Yoda, it might benefit you to familiarize yourself with the rules and objectives of dressage a bit more thoroughly, because there are MANY. And then (armed with this enlightened view) watch some of the top performances, and you'll not be able to say with any credibility that the riders are not fulfilling many/most of the objectives either at least SATISFACTORILY (6), or more often FAIRLY GOOD (7) GOOD (8) or sometimes VERY GOOD (9), which is what is reflected in the final scores, which is WHAT JUDGING IS ABOUT.

were you trying to be hilarious with this? it cracked me up.

mbm
Aug. 15, 2006, 07:48 PM
Oh good grief shut the door quickly, ALL the trolls are migrating over here!

why are you so rude????

pinecone
Aug. 15, 2006, 09:44 PM
Hi Kettle, meet Pot.

lol.

Patootie
Aug. 15, 2006, 09:50 PM
Hi Kettle, meet Pot.

lol.

Darned glad to meet you pot...have you met double boiler...frypan....and saucepan?

subk
Aug. 15, 2006, 10:23 PM
It seems that after the big blackout of the UDBboard some weeks ago some people from that board are still hanging around here, digging out dead cows.
Please GO HOME :yes:

Wow! How arrogant. You know this is a public BB and just because you spend a lot of time here it doesn't give you extra special rights to decide who ought to be here and what subject matters should be in the posts. The readership around here is much more fluid than your personal little cliques.

If you are tired of Rolkur posts then...Don't open them--even more effective: don't post on them. The nastiness of the pro-Rolkur crowd is enough to make me want to be against it. Personally I like passionate people--I may not agree with them but I have a certain respect for them.

While I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another I keep waiting for close up pictures of Rolkur horses right beside close up head shots of Tennessee Walking Horses. You know those horses aren't in pain and don't really look like it either--even if training methods have included cutting out the frog, replacing it with a golf ball then putting the shoes and pads back on. Of course you get caught doing that you get suspended. No big deal, 20 minutes after the suspension is lifted (or you get out of jail) your business resumes as normal because if your a proven winner you'll always have clients. At least GP dressage people aren't like that...right?

Horsedances
Aug. 15, 2006, 10:37 PM
Wow! How arrogant. You know this is a public BB and just because you spend a lot of time here it doesn't give you extra special rights to decide who ought to be here and what subject matters should be in the posts. The readership around here is much more fluid than your personal little cliques.

If you are tired of Rolkur posts then...Don't open them--even more effective: don't post on them. The nastiness of the pro-Rolkur crowd is enough to make me want to be against it. Personally I like passionate people--I may not agree with them but I have a certain respect for them.

While I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another I keep waiting for close up pictures of Rolkur horses right beside close up head shots of Tennessee Walking Horses. You know those horses aren't in pain and don't really look like it either--even if training methods have included cutting out the frog, replacing it with a golf ball then putting the shoes and pads back on. Of course you get caught doing that you get suspended. No big deal, 20 minutes after the suspension is lifted (or you get out of jail) your business resumes as normal because if your a proven winner you'll always have clients. At least GP dressage people aren't like that...right?

Who says I am Pro RK, read all of my postings and you should know better. :yes: I only hate it when people who never saw Anky, Edward, Laurens, Isabelle, Martin, Nicolle etc..etc.. training try to damage them
based on "go with the flow" arguments.

subk
Aug. 15, 2006, 10:58 PM
Who says I am Pro RK, read all of my postings and you should know better. :yes:
I have no clue whether you are pro or anti anything and could care less. I just think telling people to "go home" is over the top.

nero
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:18 PM
Guys, guys, guys....................let's face it, NEITHER side in this debate has a monopoly on manners, kindness and tolerance. Both sides have 'members' who can get heated here and to say it is the pro rkers only that get nasty is just silly and innaccurate. It comes from both sides, at least be realistic.

That aside when arguing that we use pics of rk to 'prove' it is hard on the horses, well that would only be vaild and useful for the purposes of a debate if the pics (that are so often used on these forums, the same ones over and over again, from the ONE source,) WERE NOT taken by someone with an axe to grind against the method itself. Lets have a pro rker take pics at a show, edit them, select the ones they want for their purposes, or better still someone who was totally neutral in the debate, then if those pics still look harsh and show horses twisted and tormented you might have a case. Because I have seen MANY horses in RK that look supple, relaxed and a lot less under duress than the many hollowed backed, held up so called traditionally trained horses. These pics as posted in the horses for life site and all other Theresa wannabe sites, do not prove your argument that rk is anymore harsh than traditional training techniques that ask a horse to perform GP. At the end of the day if you ONLY measure the merits of RK from still pics then you are missing the point. Go and watch Anky warm up in real life, you may well come away with a new outlook.

subk
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:28 PM
Guys, guys, guys....................let's face it, NEITHER side in this debate has a monopoly on manners, kindness and tolerance.
My point is that there are people who participate here who aren't regulars and don't know or follow the debate and you all act as if this is some private club.

And be careful in making the claim of what would "be useful and valid for debate." Why do you get to decide? If you personally deem it "unvalid," don't debate.

I'll leave now and let you ladies resume...

nero
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:46 PM
My point is that there are people who participate here who aren't regulars and don't know or follow the debate and you all act as if this is some private club.

And be careful in making the claim of what would "be useful and valid for debate." Why do you get to decide? If you personally deem it "unvalid," don't debate.

I'll leave now and let you ladies resume...

That would be 'invalid' btw, but anyway, do you not think that using evidence to back up an argument that was impartial would be a good idea?????? Even the photograhper that took those pics admits they are bias against rk. Gee I hardly think I'm being THAT revoluntionary. So you can leave the threats of 'be careful' at the door thanks, I was making a pretty sensible suggestion and you get all uppity and judgemental on my a$#^!!

That I think the evidence IS INVALID is exactly WHY I am arguing the point, that in itself is a reason to debate something, that the evidence is flawed, they do in courts of law all the time. Its a normal part of debating.

..........if you want to be accepted here and not feel that 'exclusivity' exists perhaps try a little civility and not judge peple and get personal. My post was in no way personal about anyone in particular - just trying to look at the big picture - yet you seem to have a need to get personal with me.............same old story.

Sabine
Aug. 15, 2006, 11:56 PM
I have no clue whether you are pro or anti anything and could care less. I just think telling people to "go home" is over the top.


While acknowleging your right to post and state your opinion- you are obviously not in the 'know' as this is a very tight club of keyboard artists, that pretty much regularly- I would say every 4 to 6 weeks- face off rather intensely on this debate. It never ceases to amaze me that all it takes is a little time off and enough energy is saved up again to go into the ring again and spar another round...this is so to speak a private, much enjoyed feud- even though the innocent onlooker might feel compelled to defend one or the other....
Since you have a lot of postings on your record but don't seem familiar in the dressage board- I am assuming you're not quite in the know yet...well- let me introduce you:
there are several steady players here- and every so often a new one gets lost into these discussions and usually trashed...
the Pro-or tolerant line- I will call them the democrats are lots of foreigners (me included) and other folks that have either had the chance to ride/audit/see/work with RK top notch trainers or are basically of the mindset that this is a free world, the horses are apparently not dying and therefore everyone has their own right to do as they please.

The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..:)) that have a strong belief in either animal rights or old fashioned dressage god adoration and want to keep things they used to be like 20-30 years ago...they feel the method is abusive and potentially dangerous to the horse. There is also a tad of unspoken resentment at times- as most of these folks have not trained in Europe, taken clinics with RK riders or at least most of the time not been in close contact with one of those top riders.

Horsedances asking the remnants of the UDBB down times to leave was maybe rude but his point was- go to the board where you can spend all day talking bad about RK...and I support this view too.

The real question in the end is: have horses suffered a lot because of RK and if they have- do they suffer as much as those that you describe because they have their feet disfigured, or those that are treated abusively to jump higher or those that get raced at age 2 and die on the track.

Usually the latter are in the worst scenario - because they DO die. I am not aware of a horse dying from RK- but of course it could have happened. I am aware of horses dying in spirit in many ways by abusive riding that was well tolerated and watched day in day out by many.

It seems that we are not able to come to a conclusion and for that lack of a better topic where we can really get hot about something and jump at each others throats- RK will have to do...:LOL!

nero
Aug. 16, 2006, 12:05 AM
"""The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..)""""

Sabine LOL, too funny, couldn't agree more!!!!

Nice, respectful post Sabine, I'm sure it will considered in various ways however.

Sabine
Aug. 16, 2006, 12:12 AM
"""The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..)""""

Sabine LOL, too funny, couldn't agree more!!!!

Nice, respectful post Sabine, I'm sure it will considered in various ways however.

I am wearing my helmet and full body protective gear...LOL!

LarkspurCO
Aug. 16, 2006, 12:29 AM
Tewhann, thank you for posting the link to Horses for Life. I found the photos rather telling (actually they're in the June 2006 article "A Rollkur Pictogram"). I believe many training methods, including rollkur, can be painful or harmful to horses. Personally, I find it UGLY. It offends my sensibilities. But I am nobody important, chopped liver as it were.

If this topic were truly as boring as your adversaries say, then why are they all participating in the thread? Why don't they skip to the next topic? When I see topics that do not interest me, I don't even read them. I see the same tired old subjects over and over, yet I feel no need to grab a pitchfork and light a torch.

Perhaps it has not occurred to these six or eight or 12 people that there are others who read these forums who might be interested.

My questions: Are RK trained horses really "better" than horses trained by traditional methods, or do they just get there faster? If faster, then is faster better? What does "better" mean anyway?

Some here have defended rollkur in the name of progress. How is this progress measured? In horse racing, progress (time) is concrete and finite and easy to measure. For rollkur and dressage, what measures can be compared to say whether the end justifies the means?


Holly

nero
Aug. 16, 2006, 12:47 AM
My questions: Are RK trained horses really "better" than horses trained by traditional methods.



Holly

Yes, at the moment, the three top horses in the world are trained rk, Warum Nitch, Lingh and Salinero - I know Briar too is trained very deep. These horses, esp Anky's and Isabelles, have long careers, think Bonfire and Gigolo, so I don't think its so much a fast tracking exercise as one that they feel gives term long term, solid results - I do not believe RK horses are bought up to GP any faster than non rk horses, this is a bit of a myth. The Klaus Balkenhol 'supervised' Farbenfroh was at international GP by the time he was eight - he was NOT RK, but got there in seemingly record time under a trainer who is now VERY outspoken AGAINST RK, so I don't think one can claim RK is fast tracking more than traditional training.

THE other thing I notice about RK trained horses is that they are so willing, Salinero and Bonfire in particualr seem to give 110% each time they go/went out, a horse under duress or distressed would not do that.

And I don't think the issue is that people posting here are not interested in the topic or happy to debate, but just tired of the same old pics trundled out by the anti camp ad nauseum. No problem arguing new issues about the subject, but to simply post pics we've ALL seen before is a bit dull and to say seeing a thread about Anky reminded me to be outraged is just a little blah, that's all, there was nothing new in the OP. Having said that I'm happy to argue the issue any time, any place, and equally as happy for people to do the same on the other side.

slc2
Aug. 16, 2006, 07:24 AM
the topic is not boring when it is discussed in an adult manner. it is not discussed that way here.

going to the other board is a good idea when you feel the need to be surrounded with people who agree with you, and when the people here are tiring of the tirades. it's cozy and comfy to be around people who agree with one.

'go home' doesn't mean literally 'go home', it means 'we're sick of hearing about it'. to most people, they would take it as, 'well, perhaps this isn't the place to discuss it'. but HERE, it means it needs to be discussed MORE! LOL!

there are bulletin boards where one can go and discuss herbal cures for diabetes, and people will roar their approval at you. there are also boards where there are parents of children who were killed by herbal cures for diabetes, and if you go there and talk about that, they will have you for dinner. what people want to hear and what people want to discuss, varies from board to board, depending on history, and depending on how badly certain topics inflame certain residents and how badly people want to not hear certain residents flame on ad nauseum again.

that doesn't necessarily, or even usually, mean that those who are objecting are pro-rollkur. generally, it means that those who are objecting are tired of holier-than-thou.

what many people object to here is the holier-than-thou attitude of the anti rollkurists, who attack anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them and accuse them of horse abuse, take on. they accuse the rollkurists of killing horses and quote sources that back them up - sources that at times have quite a bit of self promotion side of their anti rollkur stance. the only person whose anti rollkur stance i respect is ingrid klimke's. the others all seem to be doing far too much of blowing their own horns. when doing so sends a flurry of business their way, and makes them be held up as gods of classicism, it does, indeed, seem a bit much.

in fact, i have gotten pm's from people who say, 'i don't care for rollkur and won't train my horses that way, but when i listen to THOSE PEOPLE harp on and on, it makes me sick. i think if that's how they are tackling it, maybe i should reconsider, LOL'.

not to say the pro rollkurists here offer anything better in return. most here i don't think have much experience with it, and are just repeating things they heard, too.

i think here, it's a tempest in a teapot. it's people who don't know anything about it and are pro vs. people who don't know anything about it and are contra. i read the statements of both sides and frankly, am not satisfied that either side has a clue.

frankly, to me, neither side's arguments hold water.

it doesn't hold water that it's killing horses, as the main horses trained that way the most publicly seem to have a surprisingly contradictory health and longevity. nor does it hold water that it's right to do it because people are doing it and winning. it doesn't hold water that they all go like crap, either, because they don't.

win at any cost? the emotional argument. but that's not always exactly what the pro rollkurists are saying when they talk about it winning.

still, the antis grab any statement about its success and pounce on it saying that doesn't make it right, and then they practically start frothing at the mouth saying about how people who say that don't love their darling horsey poohs.

the other aspect of it is that it is, at this point, legal. people are able to decide how they want to train their horse. if they want to, fine, if they don't want to, fine. it's legal. if you want it made illegal, go to committee. it won't be made illegal by ranting on this bulletin board. sorry, but this bulletin board doesn't have that much power over the international community.

anyone can shoot holes in any stance, and sound clever. here, the cleverest sounding shpiel wins. it's a shame, really. the cleverest sounding shpiel doesn't always hold water.

siegi b.
Aug. 16, 2006, 09:49 AM
..... and we're forever thankful to have our omnipotent slc give us the straight scoop on what we're really saying. :-)

tewhann
Aug. 16, 2006, 09:55 AM
"""The Other side consists of lots of US riders( let's call them the republicans..)""""
Ok, this die hard DEM is NOW offended!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think Shrubco represents the U.S. take a look at actual election results. He wasn't even ELECTED the first time and quite narrowly the second time (how, I will NEVER understand).

This administration barely represents half of the people who actually voted. Nevermind all the people too fed up to bother. But I digress.....

tewhann
Aug. 16, 2006, 09:58 AM
That aside when arguing that we use pics of rk to 'prove' it is hard on the horses, well that would only be vaild and useful for the purposes of a debate if the pics (that are so often used on these forums, the same ones over and over again, from the ONE source,) WERE NOT taken by someone with an axe to grind against the method itself. Lets have a pro rker take pics at a show, edit them, select the ones they want for their purposes, or better still someone who was totally neutral in the debate, then if those pics still look harsh and show horses twisted and tormented you might have a case.
Thank you for finally entering into a discussion.

1. Have the pics in H4L really been used before? (Actual, serious question)
2. I would LOVE to see photos from MANY sources of horses actually in RK for discussion. The problem typically is, though, when a pro RK person posts pics, they post pics from the show ring--NOT actually IN RK.

I'd love to see some if any one has them.

slc2
Aug. 16, 2006, 10:00 AM
"and we're forever thankful to have our omnipotent slc give us the straight scoop on what we're really saying."

no seigi, that's just how i see it. you'll have to decide what you think yourself.

tewhann
Aug. 16, 2006, 10:00 AM
The real question in the end is: have horses suffered a lot because of RK and if they have- do they suffer as much as those that you describe because they have their feet disfigured, or those that are treated abusively to jump higher or those that get raced at age 2 and die on the track.
I just cannot comprehend the "since THEY do it, it's ok for US to do it" philosophy. Many horses in ALL disciplines are started too early, pushed too hard, and die in the name of "sport".

I would certainly hope we set the bar a bit higher than death to determine what is and isn't cruel.

pinecone
Aug. 16, 2006, 11:05 AM
class, everyone should strive to improve their knowledge, I'm not sure what is funny about that. It would be sheer arrogance for a person to think they know EVERYTHING and have nothing else to learn.


**
Pots, kettles, frying pans, they're all great for troll poking, lol.

class
Aug. 16, 2006, 11:29 AM
sorry. i just got a tickle out of you telling an "R" judge what the number scores meant. i'm sure that is very useful information to her. ;)

mzpeepers
Aug. 16, 2006, 11:34 AM
not to say the pro rollkurists here offer anything better in return. most here i don't think have much experience with it, and are just repeating things they heard, too.


Uh Oh slc.....I think you might be onto something here......:D

JSwan
Aug. 16, 2006, 11:50 AM
I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I'd add two "thoughts":

According to my calendar the full moon was on the 9th of August - today it is the last quarter. And it isn't as hot out - so tempers can't be blamed on heat, either. So perhaps the last quarter of the moon is the culprit and not the full moon or high temps.

I couldn't help but notice that you could replace the word "Rollkur" with "slaughter" and this thread has amazing parallels to slaughter threads. How interesting.

Oops - I guess that's three "thoughts".

Back to your regularly scheduled Rollkur debate. I'm just lurking while I wait for the farrier to show up!

Sabine
Aug. 16, 2006, 05:22 PM
I just cannot comprehend the "since THEY do it, it's ok for US to do it" philosophy. Many horses in ALL disciplines are started too early, pushed too hard, and die in the name of "sport".

I would certainly hope we set the bar a bit higher than death to determine what is and isn't cruel.


you can do as you please TEwhann- you can ride RK (if you know how) or abstain if you have ethical concerns...I do the same- and choose to abstain. However I would never dream of telling you that you couldn't try it...that would be akin to me lording over you my ethical framework.

Since none of the RK horses are clearly and apparently suffering from their training in the sense that they break down regularly, show high amounts of tension during competitions or are known otherwise as treacherously dangerous and unpredictable- I have a hard time attaching such a serious verdict on to a photograph- which as always- just reflects a moment in time.

Patootie
Aug. 16, 2006, 06:35 PM
Can I ask a REALLY stupid question?

What is the purpose of this post, and where was it supposed to go. The OP was check it out, we must speak for those who have no voice.

Well ok. Now somewhere along the way the pot met the kettle and the black dog jumped over the moon while his owner was running behind him with his GPS hoping to scratch him behind his ears right on his GSPOT. Then the democrats moved on, some judge somewhere obviously does not know how to use the scores, and slc is right. OK at least in slc's mind. Elvis wore white after Labor Day and was abducted by aliens as a result. It's also been noticed that if we replace the word ROLLKUR with the world BILLYGOAT, then the post makes absolutely no sense at all.

I would say with the complete lack of intelligible information coming from either side, one poster definitely being much less intelligible than the rest, maybe you should all save and energy and just post in big letters, "I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG", and be done with it.

The facts?

- Rollkur in the picture looks cruel.
- You can't judge a process by a picture.
- You also can't judge a process from a picture from an article that was written to make a point. (I am quite sure that if the writer wanted to show the benefits of rollkur, much better pictures would have been used.)
-People posting on this topic haven't ridden at this level or close, and certainly not this caliber horse.
-I suspect some of the strongest opinions on this topic haven't ridden their way out of training level and have never felt a horse honestly in front of the leg or through.
-Some posters are very big name droppers, even when they're incoherent.

In summation, I will say, SHARE THE MEDS AND SAVE THE WHALES AND LEAVE ROLLKUR TO THE PROFESSIONALS.

Thank you for your time.

Have a nice day!

slc2
Aug. 16, 2006, 06:40 PM
does anky should be shot and anky kills horses...qualify as 'name dropping'? or is it just named droppings?

Patootie
Aug. 16, 2006, 06:52 PM
I would say that that would be consider a threat, as well as slander.

Glue sniffing anyone?

claire
Aug. 16, 2006, 08:47 PM
Wow! How arrogant. You know this is a public BB and just because you spend a lot of time here it doesn't give you extra special rights to decide who ought to be here and what subject matters should be in the posts. The readership around here is much more fluid than your personal little cliques.

If you are tired of Rolkur posts then...Don't open them--even more effective: don't post on them. The nastiness of the pro-Rolkur crowd is enough to make me want to be against it. Personally I like passionate people--I may not agree with them but I have a certain respect for them.


Very well put subk! Maybe if some of the "democrats" stopped opening and posting on RK threads...it would die a natural death :)

Then again, maybe they enjoy trainwrecks :lol: